believed by the Protestants and Popish Church we believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God of one and the same substance and nature with the Father they believe in a Jesus Christ Son of God but of a distinct and different nature and substance of the Father Isaac Pish That 's but a Nicety believe what you please and what you understand by Scripture to be true and have Charity Ismael I confess you have puzled but yet not wholly convinced me were I but perswaded that what you have discoursed is truly the Doctrin of the Reformation I would cheerfully embrace it and I will be better informed by your self but not tire your Patience We will meet again and pursue our Discourse upon this Subject Second Dialogue ISMAEL Reflecting in my Sollitude upon your last Discourse I find it bottom'd upon a false Principle for you suppose that whatever Doctrin is of Luther Calvin or any of your Learned Doctors Synods Parliaments or Congregations is the Doctrin of the Reformation and may without any more proof or scruple be believed by any Reformed Child who but sees this is ridiculous to fasten the Doctrin and absurd Opinions of each particular Doctor or Congregation upon the whole Body This is the uncharitable and unreasonable Art of the Papists who keep a great Coil with some exorbitant Opinions of Luther and Calvin and would perswade their Proselites they are the Tenets of the Reformation whereas the Reformation disclaims those Opinions as much as the Pope does And they do not poor People observe how many absurd and scandalous Doctrines we meet in their Casuists and Divines which when we reproach them with they answer It 's not the Doctrin of their Church but of some particular Doctors as if we might not with as much Justice as they answer the same Isaac Your Reflection is good and my discourse will fall to the ground if I do not prove that Principle which will be no hard task Let us imagine we are here a full Synod of Protestants Presbyterians Hugonots Lutherans Antitrinitarians Anabaptists Quakers and of all and each of our Congregations our Reformation is not any of these Congregations with an exclusion of the rest but all of them joyntly for whatsoever Congregation would say it self alone is the Reformation and no other would be hiss'd at by the rest and justly because that our Reformation imports two points essentially First a Profession of Christianity according to the Rule of the Word of God and a Detestation or Abjuration of Popish Errors and none of these Congregations but does both Ismael I know some of these Pharisee-like despise others and look upon them not as Reformed but as putrid Members but the Lord forbid I should be so void of Charity I see no just chalenge any can have to the Title of Reformation which all have not Isaac Let us ask this Synod by what Rule of Faith does the Reformation walk What must a Man believe for to be a true Reformed Protestants will say that Scripture and Apostolical Tradition but Protestants say of Papists and Presbytarians and Anabaptists say of Protestants that many humane Inventions are obtruded upon us as Apostolical Traditions that we have no way to discern the one from the other and consequently Tradition as being an unknown thing unto us cannot be our Rule others will say that Scripture and the indubitable Consequences out of it is our Rule all will grant this but then enters the Controversy if the Consequences of Lutherans be such and if the Consequences of Presbyterians be indubitable out of Scripture and each Congregation will say that their peculiar Tenets are indubitable Consequences out of Scripture and the rest must allow it to be true or deny such a Congregation to be of the Reformation Others will say that Scripture and the four first general Councils with the Apostles and Athanasius's Creed are our Rule of Faith but most of the Assembly will no more admit the four first than the subsequent Councils nor Athanasius's Creed more than that of Trent nor will the Quakers Socinians and others value the Apostles Creed But there is none of all the Assembly who will not admit Scripture that 's the pure written Word of God to be a sacred and full Rule of Faith because it 's replenished with divine Light and all heavenly instruction necessary for our Salvation And such as add as a part of our Rule of Faith the Apostles or Athanasius's Creed or the four first general Councils they will confess that all they contain is expressed in Gods written Word and are but a plainer or more distinct expression or declaration of the Contents of Scripture Ismael Truly I must grant you this that I have been often present at several discourses of Protestants with Papists and never could I hear a Protestant make Councils Tradition or any thing else the Test of their Discourse but only Scripture not but that I could hear them say and pretend in their Discourses that Apostolical Tradition and the four first Councils were for them against Popery but still their main strength and ultimate refuge was Scripture for whenever they harp upon that string of Tradition and Councels the Papists are visibly too hard for them and then they run to Scripture than which there is no plus ultra I have been also often at several discourses betwixt Protestant Presbyterians and our Brethren of other Congregations I have observed that the Protestant for to defend his Liturgy Rights and Ceremonies of the Church of England and her Episcopacy against the others could never defend himself by Scripture alone and plac'd his main Strength against them in Tradition Primitive Councils and ancient Fathers all which the other rejected and reproached the Protestant with Popery for making use of that Weapon that if they would stick to those Principles as their Rule of Faith they must admit many Tenets of Popery which they disavow that nothing but Scripture is a sufficient Warrant and Rule of Faith And I find by all I could ever well understand that 's the General apprehension and belief of all the Reformation that Scripture abundantly contains all we are obliged to believe and is our sole and only Rule of Faith and that our recourse to Tradition Councils Fathers c. are but shifts of some of our Doctors who being Non-plust in their particular Engagements and Sophistries patch the incoherency of their discourses with these rags of Popery Isaac I commend your Ingenuity but not that heat which transports you to check our Doctors for their Glosses and particular Doctrines upon Scripture which as the Manna relished of all sorts of Victuals which the Eater fancied admits several sences according to the different Spirits and measure of light that God gives to the Reader and it is undoubtedly the Spirit of the Reformation to follow what sense of it he likes best and not to check others following this or that as they please Lutherans Protestants
Church Councils or Fathers The Church of Rome proud and impatient of any Opposition condemned them as Hereticks for not submitting their Judgments to her for taking Scripture as they understood it and not as the Church and Councils understood it for their Râ—â—â— of Faith and if this be a crime we are as guilty as they we are equally â—… ocent or innocent we are both Hereticks or none is we are therefore concern'd in their Honour and ought to defend the integrity of their procedure against the common Enemy which is the Pope They were Reformers of the Church in their times as we are in ours and whereas they have the same Rule of Faith so they have the same Religion with the Reformation Ismael Then you will say Arianism is the Doctrine of the Reformation and we may lawfully believe it Isaac I say God's Unity in Nature and Trinity in Persons is the Doctrine of the Reformation because the Protestant Lutheran and Hugonot Church judge by Scripture it is true and if you judge also by Scripture it is the true Doctrine you may believe it I say also if you judge by Scripture this Mystery is not true you may safely deny it acccording to the Principles of the Reformation and be still as good a Member of the Reformed Church as they who believe it for whoever believes what he judges by Scripture to be true is a true Reformed And that the denial of the Trinity is as much the Doctrine of the Reformation as the belief of it it appears not only because it was the Doctrine of the Arians who as I proved are truly of the Reformed Church but because it was taught by the greatest Lights of our Church Calvin says the Text. My Father is greater than I must be understood of Christ not only as he is Man but also as he is God. And that the Council of Nice did abuse the Text My Father and I are one for to prove the Vnity of both in Nature whereas it only signifies their Vnity by conformity of Wills. Again he says Epist 2. ad Polon in Tract Theol. pag. 796. That Prayer Holy Trinity one God have mercy of us is brabarous and does not please me And adds The Son has his own substance distinct from the Father His Disciple Danaeus says it 's a foolish insipid Prayer And our great Apostle Luther who as Fox witnesseth was the Chariot and Conductor of Israel and a Man extraordinarily raised and replenish'd with Gods Spirit to teach the purity of the Gospel caused that Prayer to be blotted out of the Litanies That word Trinity says he sounds coldly my Soul hates that word Humousion and the Arian did well in not admitting it Lastly Ochinus that great Oracle of England impugns this Mystery with a strong discourse We are not obliged to believe says he more than the Saints of the Ancient Testament otherwise our condition would be worse than theirs but they were not obliged to believe this Mystery therefore we are not obliged Examin I pray the Works of these eminent Doctors where I quote them consider if they be not not only Men of sound judgment but Men extraordinarily raised by God says the Synod of Charenton the Chariots and Conductors of Israel says Fox Men to be reverenc'd after Christ says our Doctor â—owel and Apostolical Oracles sent to teach us the purity of the Gospel and conclude it 's an undeniable Verity that this is the Doctrine of the Reformation whereas it's Scripture as Interpreted by such Men Oh! But England France and Scotland believe this Mystery well And what then That proves that the Mystery is also the Doctrine of the Reformation because whatever any Man of sound Judgment thinks to be Scripture it 's the Doctrine but is England or France alone the whole Reformation Are not Luther Calvin Danaeus Ochinus as well of the Reformation and Men of as sound Judgment as they Since therefore they understand by Scripture there 's no Trinity it 's the Doctrine of the Reformation also that there 's none Believe it or deny it which you like best and you 'll be still of the Reformed Church Isaac By the principle you run upon you say any may Blasphemy is the Doctrin of the Reformation for there 's hardly any so execrable but some Dr. of ours has delivered and taught it Ismael The Principle I run upon is this Scripture as each person of sound Judgment interprets it is our Rule of Faith Judge you if that be not a good Principle in our Reformed Church whereas this is the Rule of Faith given us by the 39 Articles and generally by all our Doctors as I proved in my first Dialogue this being our Rule of Faith and Reformed Doctrine it 's evident that whatever Doctrine is judged by any person of sound Judgment to be contained in Scripture is the Doctrine of our Reformation some persons of sound Judgment say the Real Presence is expressed by Scripture this therefore is the Doctrine of the Reformation others say only Figurative Presence is taught in Scripture this also is the Doctrine of the Reformation some understand by Scripture there is a Mystery of the Blessed Trinity this therefore is the Doctrine of the Reformation others understand there 's no such Mystery this also is the Doctrine of the Reformation so that whether you believe or deny this or any other Tenet controverted you 'll still hold the Doctrine of the Reformation Ismael Calvin says Christ pray'd unadvisedly the Eve of his passion that he uttered words whereof he was afterward sorry that in his passion he was so troubled of all sides that overwhelm'd with desparation he desisted from invoking God which was to renounce all hopes of Salvation And says he if you object it 's absurd and scandalous to affirm Christ despair I answer This desparation proceeded from him as he was man not as he was God. And this is not only the Doctrine of Calvin but of Brentius Marlotus Jacobus Minister quoted by Bilson and of Beza Will you say this is the Doctrine of the Reformation or that we can without scruple believe it Also Calvin says That Christ's corporal death was not sufficient for to redeem us but that after having despaired on the Cross he suffered the death of his Soul that 's to say that his Soul after his corporal death suffered the pains of the damn'd in Hell. And says he in the same place they are but ignorant doltish brutish men who will deny it Luther also teaches the same Doctrine As he suffered with exceeding pains the death of the body so it seems he suffered afterward the death of the Soul in Hell Epinus a learned Lutheran says Christ descended into Hell for thee and suffered not only corporal death but the death and fire of Hell. Mr. Fulk and Perkins avow this is also the express Doctrine of Illiricus Latimer and Lossius Also Luther
Mary why did not you put in also Elizabeth Mother of the great Baptist and the Angel Gabriel as well as Michael Ismael I know not indeed Isaac Nor do I know if it be not because that Elizabeth and Gabriel made the Popish Ave Maria as Scripture relates but can you tell as the Church of England put in your Kalender St. George St. Andrew and St. David Patrons of England Scotland and Wales why did not she put in St. Patrick Patron of Ireland Ismael I can't tell What may be the reason think you Isaac I know not if it be not that he forfeited his place for his Purgatory for tho the others were as deep in Popery as he if we believe the Papists but the Parliament pass'd an Act of Indemnity for England Scotland and Wales after the Kings return to his Kingdoms and thereby the sin of Popery was forgiven to their Patrons and no Act of Indemnity was past for Ireland whereby Patrick is still guilty if it be not that the Seven Champions of Christendom tell us St. Patrick was St. George his Footman and it was not thought good manners to put him in the same rank with his Master Ismael For shame if not for pitty forbear I cannot endure to fully Sacred things with profane Ralleries the Kalender is a holy institution of the Church and ought to be reverenc'd Isaac And so is Episcopacy Surplices Bells Organs and Corner Caps yet I hope you will give Presbyterians Anabaptists Quakers c. leave to laugh at them and be still as good Children of the Reformation as you if you esteem them to be Sacred and Holy reverence and honour them I commend you for it if others Judge otherwise let them follow their humour each one as he fancies says the Fellow kissing his Com this is the holy Liberty of the Reformation Scripture as each one understands it Ismael Let us return to our last discourse how is it possible that those Tenets of Popery â—…ould be the Doctrin of the Reformation whereâ—â— we see the Church of England so severely perâ—â—ecute the Professors of them Isaac Do you think a Doctrin is not of the Reformation because it 's denyed by the Church of England or because she persecutes the Proâ—essors of it do not they persecute all Non-conforâ—ists as well as Popery persecution is no proof of a Doctrin to be bad it 's but the effect of a blind zeal armed with power for to know cerâ—ainly if a Doctrin be of the Reformation you must try it by our Test or Rule of Faith which is the written Word of God and whatever any man of sound Judgment of a sincere and humble heart judges to be contained in Scripture or â—n indubitable consequence out of it that man may believe that Doctrin let all others Judge of it as they list and by so believing will be a true Child of the Reformation wherefore since that the Church of France that of England in Edward the VI 's time Luther Melancthon Grotius and the other Authors I quoted do Judge Transubstantiation Popes Supremacy and Communion in one kind to be the Doctrin of Scripture we must call it the Doctrin of the Reformation and if you judge as they did you may believe the Doctrin and be still of the Reformation as well as they Ismael Can you shew me any other Tenet of Popery which you can call the Doctrin of the Reformation Isaac Alas you can hardly shew me any Tenet of Popery but what is it's Doctrin what Doctrin more Popish than that of Confession and Absolution from sins yet it 's as truly the Doctrin of the Reformation as figurative Presence for not only Lobechius Altamerus Sacerius and Melancthon says it 's a Sacrament but the Church of England in our Common-Prayer Book declares that Priests have not only the power of declaring their sins to be forgiven to the Penitents but also the power of forgiving them and sets down the form of Absolution which the Minister is to use Our Lord Jesus Christ who left power to the Church to absolve all sinners which truly repent of his mercy forgive thee and thine offences and I by his Authority committed unto me do absolve thee from all thy sins The Minister of the Diocess of of Lincoln in their Survey of the Book of Common Prayers checkt this Doctrine as Popery and petitioned to have it blotted out but could not prevail whereby we are given to understand it 's the Doctrine of the Reformation It 's Popery we say to call extream Uuction Confirmation and Holy Order of Priest-hood Sacraments and who can justly deny all this to be the Doctrine of the Re-formation for Calvin says I confess the Disciples of Christ did use Exâ—ream Vnction as a Sacrament I am not says he of the opinion of those who judge it was only a Meâ—â—cine for corporal diseases Calvin also and with him our Common Prayer Book and all our Divines say a Sacrament is nothing else but a Visible sign of the invisible Grace we receive by â—t and they say with Pouel Hooker and others that this definition fits exactly Confirmation wherefore the Ministers of the Diocess of Lincoln checkt the Common Prayer Book for giving the Definition of a Sacrament to Confirmation Melancthon Bilsom Hooker and Calvin expresly teach that the Order of Priesthood is a Sacrament And when men of so eminent Judgment of our Reformation teach this to be the Doctrine of Scripture who doubts but that it is of the Reformation Ismael By this you destroy the Doctrine of the Reformation of two Sacraments only Is Destroy it God forbid Because the Church of England says there are but two Sacraments I say it 's the Doctrin of the Reformation there are but two and because so many eminent Men judge by Scripture there are more I say it 's the Doctrin of the Reformation there are more that 's to say six Baptism Confirmation Eucharist Pennance Extream Unction and Holy Order and very likely our Bishops and Ministers for their Wives sake will not stick to grant that Matrimony also is a Sacrament Ismael But can you say that Prayers to Saints and Images Prayer for the dead and Purgatory are not meer Popery and in no wise the the Doctrine of Reformation Isaac Without doubt those Tenets are Popery but all the World knows the Lutherans use Images in their Churches and pray before them and the Holy Synod of Charenton has declared as was said in our first Dialogue that the Lutherans have nothing of Superstition or Idolatry in their manner of Divine Worship this is also the Doctrine of Jacobus Andreas Brachmanus Kemnitius Luther and Brentius quoted by Beza and why should not a Doctrine Judged by such eminent Men to be of Scripture be called the Doctrin of the Reformation Prayers for the dead and Purgatory is Popery confessedly but alas it is taught expresly
the Doctrin of the Reformation or consistent with its principles Isaac The Kings Supremacy is undoubtedly the Doctrin of the Reformation because it 's judged by the Church of England to be of Scripture yet not only the Quakers Presbyterians Anabaptists and other Congregations judge it 's not of Scripture but as erroneous a Tenet as that of the Popes Supremacy Calvin 6. Amos says They were unadvised people and Blasphemers who raised King Henry the VII so far as to call him the head of the Church but also that no Civil Magistrate can be the head of any particular Church is the Doctrin of the Centuriators cent sept pag. 11. of Cartwright Viretus Kemnitius and many others who doubts then but that in the principles and Doctrin of the Reformation you may deny the Kings Supremacy tho' the Church of England believes it The Popes Supremacy is the Doctrin of Popery who doubts it but it 's also the Doctrin of the Reformation for many of our Eminent Doctors have judged it to be the Doctrine of Scripture as Whitgift who cites Calvin and Musculus for this opinion but it 's needful we relate some of their express words I do not deny says Luther but the Bishop of Rome is has been and ought to be first of all I believe he is above all other Bishops it 's not lawful to deny his Supremacy Melancthon says no less that the Bishop of Rome is above all the Church that it is his office to govern to Judge in controversies to watch over the Priests to keep all Nations in conformity and unity of Doctrin Somaisius The Pope of Rome has been without controversie the first Metropolitan in Italy and not only in Italy nor only in the West but in all the World the other Metropolitans have been chief in their respective districts but the Pope of Rome has been Metropolitan and Primate not only of some particular Diocess but of all Grotius has expresly the same Doctrin and proves this Supremacy belongs to the Pope de Jure Divino I pray consider if these Doctors be not men of sound Judgment and of eminent learning and credit in our Reformation and if our Doctrin be Scripture as such men understand it consider I say with what Justice can this Doctrin be called Popery more than Reformed Doctrin As for Transubstantiation it contains two difficulties first if the Body of Christ be really in the Sacrament and this real presence the Lutherans defend to be the Doctrin of Scripture as well as the Papists why then should it be called Popish more than Reformed Doctrin The second is if the substance of Bread be in the Sacrament together with Christ's Body Lutherans say it is Papists say it is not but that there is a Transubstantiation or change of the whole substance of Bread into the Body of Christ but hear what Luther says of this that we call Popish Doctrin I give all Persons liberty to believe in this point what they please without hazard of their Salvation either that the Bread is in the Sacrament of the Altar or that it is not would Luther have given this liberty if Transubstantiation had not been the Doctrin of the Reformation as well as any other Calvin also and Beza affirm that Luthers Doctrin of the co-existence of Christ's Body and the Bread is more absurd than the Popish Doctrin of the existence of the Body alone if therefore we be true Reformed and safely believe the Doctrin of Luther which is the most absurd much more will we be of the Reformation by believing that of the Papists which is less Communion in one kind is the Doctrin of the Reformation no less than Communion in both for besides that Luther says They Sin not against Christ who use one kind only seeing Christ has not commanded to use both and again though it were an excellent thing to use both kinds in the Sacrament and Christ has commanded nothing in this as necessary yet it were better to follow peace and unity than to contest about the kinds but also Melancthon who in the opinion of Luther surpasses all the Fathers of the Church expresly teaches the same Doctrin and the Church of England Statute I. Edward VI. command That the Sacrament be commonly administr'd in both kinds if necessity does not require otherwise mark he says but commonly and that for some necessity it may be received in one lastly the sufficiency of one kind in the Sacrament is plainly set down by our Reformed Church of France in her Ecclesiastical Discipline printed at Saumur Chap. 12. Art. 7. The Minister must give the Bread in the Supper to them who cannot drink the Cup provided it be not for contempt And the reason is because there are many who cannot endure the taste of Wine wherefore it often happens among them that some persons do take the Bread alone and truly if some of our Ministers in England do not give better Wine than they are accustomed who very irreverently serve that Holy Table with naughty trash it 's much to be feared that our flock will also petition to be dispenc'd with in the Cup because there are some of so delicate Palats that they cannot endure the taste of bad Wine Now you may admire the injustice of the Papists in Condemning our Reformed Doctrin and Doctors as Hereticks whereas those Tenets are believed by many of us as well as by them and the groundless severity of our Congregations in exclaiming against that Doctrin it being the Doctrin of the Reformation whereas so many eminent men of our own judge it to be of Scripture Ismael Whereas I see people persecuted by the Church of England for these Tenets I can hardly be perswaded they are the Doctrin of the Reformation at our next meeting we will persue this discourse the Bell rings for Morning Prayers A Dieu Seventh DIALOGUE ISAAC You come from Church as I guess by the Common-Prayer Book I see in your hand I pray let me see the Kalender of it if it be a la mode nouvelle which was made by the Church of England since his Majesties Restauration Ismael Why have you met any thing in it which shocks you Isaac Shock me No Doctrin or practice of any Congregation or man of sound Judgment of our Church can shock me you know I plead for liberty to believe and practise as each one judges by Scripture to be true and good But I observe in your Kalender you have a day consecrated to St. Ann in the Month of July I would gladly know what Ann this is which the Church of England honours so much Ismael It 's Ann the Mother of the Virgin Mary Isaac It 's possible I thought it was Ann Bolein the Mother of our Virgin Elizabeth I am sure the Church of England is more obliged to Her than to the other but as you have put here the Mother of the Virgin