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A64576 A vindication of Scripture and ministery in a rejoynder to a reply not long since published by Thomas Speed ... : wherein sundry Scriptures are explained, divers questions (relating to these times) discussed, and the truth asserted against the exceptions of papists and Quakers : whereunto is adjoyned a postscript reflecting upon and returning answer to divers passages in Thomas Speed his last pamphlet / by William Thomas ... Thomas, William, 1593-1667. 1657 (1657) Wing T991; ESTC R1167 73,914 98

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is one part but still he is unhappy whilst he speaks of lying for how can Calvin conclude me to be a lyar with those words which he never spake And what he cites out of Calvin is not to be found in him but in Calvin upon that place I mean on Eph. 2.20 these words are to be found Qu●● fundamentum hic pro doctrina sumatur minime dubium est that the word foundation in this place is to be taken for doctrine that is for the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets is not at all to be doubted of for which he gives his reason before mentioned and then concludes Itaque docet Paulus fidem ecclesiae in hac doctrina debere esse fundatam therefore Paul teacheth that the faith of the Church ought to be founded in this doctrine But suppose some other interpreter speak the words that he puts upon Calvin the matter is soon answered for Christ is the foundation witnessed the word of the Prophets and Apostles is the foundation witnessing or the fundamental doctrine giving testimony of Jesus Christ W.T. There 's a double foundation 1 personal or real that 's Christ 2. doctrinal or declarative that 's the Scripture T. S. If the Scripture be no real foundation it is then imaginary Pag. 22 for that which is not real is imaginary W. T. A. His silence had been better then his sophistry Is the story of a thing the whole story of Scripture nothing but an imagination because it is not the thing acted Had he had as much mind to understand as he had to cavil he might have seen that I did not oppose real to imaginary but to declarative and that my plain meaning was that Christ is the person or the thing whereupon we build our selves but the word whereupon we build our faith that we may build our selves upon that thing or person is the doctrine and declaration of Scripture T. S. You go on to distinguish between Gods testimony and Gods truth Pag. 23 Is not his testimony his truth W. T. A. Its true I make a distinction but he falsly cries out that I creat an opposition and then runs on to poure out his pulpit-hatred he cares not how I onely ask him this question When he receives letters from France or Spain is there no difference between the things themselves whereof the letters speak and the letters and lines that testifie of those things T. S. But the ground of faith you say may be corrupted nay pag. 22 you say further that faith may be lost Is faith bottomed on a corruptible foundation W. T. I did not say the ground of faith may be corrupted but only that if the Scriptures be corrupted they must be purged And yet if any man say that the Scriptures which are the ground of faith may be corrupted it doth not follow thence that the faith of the Elect is bottomed on a corruptible foundation for their faith is not bottomed on Scripture as corrupted but as pure and clear and as it is that word of God that endure● for ever having no dross in it though men seek to mix their dross with it which the Elect of God that build upon it do both detect and detest It s worse then this that he reports me to say that faith may b● lost when the words of my letter were that if the Scriptures could be 〈◊〉 ●here would quick●y be found a loss in faith And hath not he wit to distinguish between a loss in it and a loss of it between less and nothing T. S. You confess that the Scriptures were not the ground of Abe●● Enock● and Noahs faith and if they were not the ground of their faith then neither were they the ground of any of the Saints faith since them for that they and all the Saints since have the same foundation and are built on the same Rock which can never be removed nor corrupted as you do most absurdly assert VV. T. A. The name Scripture denotes and contains two th●ngs in it 1. The revealed will of God 2. The written will of God The revealed will of God is the foundation of Saints faith from the beginning to the end of the world but in a different manner viz. as delivered by God without writing in the first times but in writing since and being now delivered in writing that written word is now the ground of Saints faith 2. Unto this argument a I answer That all Saints former and later have the same foundation in regard of the substance but not in regard of the manner of communication The ground of the faith of the first Saints was the revealed will of God unwritten since the same will of God revealed and setting forth the object of our faith in and by writing that is the doctrine contained in the old and new Testament about which two things are considerable 1. something inward and that is the immutable truth of God 2. Something outward and that is in the writing by which it is exactly presented unto the Churches view when we say the Scripture is the ground of faith we put both together and say it is the word of●God as writter and communicating unto us in that way the doctrine of our salvation 3. I never asserted nor ever thought to say that the Rock whereon our persons are built can be removed yet it may be granted that the Scripture on which our faith is founded may be corrupted though our faith be not grounded on corrupted Scripture T. S. Did ever any of those called Quakers say that the Word of God was not the ground of Abrahams faith and still is of the faith of all Saints VV. T. In that book which was the occasion of writing my first letter called The fiery darts of the d●vil quenched * there are these words a This again I affirm as before I did that the Scriptures is not the Saints Rule but the Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures we walk as Abel Noah c. by the immediate Spirit of God which was before those Scriptures were w●itten Here I observe two things 1. That this Quaker saith the Scripture is not the Saints Rule which is all one as to say the Word of God is not the Saints Rule for the Scriptures are the Word of God Christ calls the written Law of Moses the Word of God which the Pharises made of none effect by their traditions Ma●k 7.10 13. The Scripture speaks Rom. 4.3 and whose words doth it speak but the words of God Rom. 10.17 2. I observe here that though he do not say The word of God is not the Saints Rule but onely that the Scripture is not yet the same reason why he holds the Scripture not to be the Saints Rule to wit because we must walk by the immediate spirit of God excludes the word of God also for the Word and Spirit are different things Isa. 59.21 T. S. Pag. 24 Because Christ saith to the
is expressed Gal. 6.16 Is therefore the Scripture the Saints Rule Pag. 7 W.T. Answ. Here he puts down a word or two of what I spake leaving out the rest and then makes as if I had spoken that which I never spake for I never said that because the word Rule was there therefore the Scripture is the Saints Rule but the force of the Argument lies in this That the very word Rule is expressed there for the end and purpose to declare hold forth the Scripture to be a Rule For here 's an happy end Peace and Mercy a walk prescribed for the attaining of that end a Rule revealed to guide that walk to wit that Word of God which is written in the two verses immediately going before viz. v. 14 15. wherein all men are directed to glory in the Cross of Christ v. 14. and that so as to become new Creatures v. 14 15. that is they are guided to faith accompanied with holinesse as the sure way to happinesse For the further opening and confirming whereof let it be observ'd that the Apostle doth in the close of this Epistle knit up the Doctrine of the whole Epistle yea of the whole Gospel yea of the whole Bible whereupon this is justly extended by Divines to the whole Canonical Scripture and the Doctrine is this That we are to look for Justification and life not in the works of the Law either without Christ or with Christ but in Christ crucified alone apprehended by Faith and yet that faith is not alone but appears in the novation of our nature within and in working by love without in the keeping of all Gods Commandments This is apparent by v. 14. where Paul professeth his glorying in the Crosse of Christ alone that is his contentful and triumphant confidence in Christ crucified the rather for the blessed effect thereof which he found in himself to wit The worlds being crucified to him as he was to the world that is whereby he was made a new creature which is a thing so considerable that if we reckon of things as Christ doth all outward priviledges and preheminences are nothing v. 15. Hereupon it follows v. 16. As many as walk according to this Rule that is this Scripture-Doctrine which teacheth men by faith to rest on and rejoyce in Jesus Christ crucified and crucifying that is so working on and in them by their believing in him as that they are crucified with him and become new creatures Peace shall be upon them Rom. 5.1 and mercy 1 Tim. 1.14 whether they be Jews or Gentiles when otherwise nothing will avail either the one or the other for peace and life Now if any shall say as this Writer doth who gives forth a meaning himself when he cries out upon other men for doing the like that the Rule is the new Creature meaning thereby the Law and Direction of the Spirit in the heart of a person regenerated this falls in with the former for the Spirit suggesteth no other Rule to the heart then that which it expresseth in the Word But the Apostle sufficiently decides this matter and interprets himself Ch. 5. v. 5 6. where handling the same Argument viz. Resting on Christ by faith for righteousness and life and bringing in the very same reason that he doth here he doth a little vary the words and instead of the new Creature named here puts Faith working by love So that the Rule is plainly this To look for salvation by Faith in Christ Jesus working by love which is the character of a new creature who first is in Christ by Faith 2 Cor. 5.17 and then that Faith worketh by love and in holinesse because the new creature is Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works Eph. 2.10 W.T. Saints must walk by one Rule or another I ask then what is the Rule if Scripture be not the Rule T.S. I know no new Rule nor own none but the same that Abel Pag. 8 Enoch Noah Abraham Moses David Paul and the rest of the holy men of God walked by And by the same touchstone that those holy men proved the Light they walked by whether it were of God or no the same and no other do I own still W.T. Abel Enoch Noah Abraham had the Word of God for their Rule delivered to them as God pleased in those times Moses David and Paul had the same thing for their Rule that is the Word of God but committed to Writing for the Churches use in their times To that Word new I answer That the Rule is the same still that is the revealed will of God there 's nothing new but the Writing and that 's now old But what 's this to my question which was If the Scripture be not the Rule what is the Rule Hereunto he gives a crafty but no clear Answer he seems to say That 's the Rule which the holy men of God whose Names he puts down walked by I ask him again But what was that Rule which they walked by If he think it to be the Word of God whether revealed without writing as at first or written as afterward why doth he not say so and so yeild that the word written is now our Rule If he think the inward Light which Quakers dream of to be the Rule then I ask him again How shall we trye whether that pretended Light be a Rule to walk by For he 's a fool that beleeves every thing Now this he huddles up and speaks something to no purpose generally and guilefully but nothing determinately All he sayes is this That by the same Touchst●ne that those holy men proved the Light they walked by the same and no other do I own a Here I shall not examine whether this Author that is so exact in Grammer in the latter part of his Book speak so good sense as he should do I leave that to the Reader But since he speaks of Holy Mens Touchstone I shall propound unto him the approved Example of the Bereans who proved Pauls Doctrine as Paul was willing they should prove it to wit by searching the Scripture Let him prove his Light by the same Touchstone that these holy and noble persons did and it shall suffice If he say Paul proved not his own Light so I reply 1. That there is a great difference between 〈◊〉 that received his Light immediately from Christ and himself and Quakers who too much manifest that they have not received their Light from him either immediately or mediately 2. It is enough that the Spirit of God commends that way of proving Pauls Light by others that were his hearers for thence it will follow either that that Scripture-search is the way to prove every mans Light that professeth he receiveth it from Christ or else the commendation of the Bereans for doing so is not a sufficient approbation of the wisdom of that course and so we shall come to question the spirit of God speaking to their
Jews that they thought they had eternal life in the Scriptures did he therefore direct to look for life in them Christ telleth his Disciples that the time should come that whosoever killed them should think he did God service and will you thence gather this doctrine which is as true as the former that Christ in that Scripture directeth men to kill his Disciples W. T. A. Is there the same reason between these two were not their thoughts right in the one but altogether unrighteous in the other Doth not Christ approve the one and condemn the other Are not the thoughts which Christ approves right because the same men have other thoughts which Christ condemns They thought rightly that eternal life is laid up in Scripture a for it is said Hear and your soul shall live Isaiah 55.3 and of that song and of those words of the Law which Moses wrote Deuteronomie 31.22 24 it is said it is your life ●euteronomy 32.46.47 Therefore from their own right concession Christ presseth them to search the Scripture and shews further how that eternal life which they truly thought was to be had there was to be had and enjoyed of them to wit by their testify n● of him Unto this my Letter spake further which he lightly passes over for a mans easiest way is to slight that wherein he cannot satisfie T.S. Cant at eternal life which alone is to be had in Christ Pag. 25 b● yet had in Scrip●ure and in that which is not Christ where had you this rare piece of Logick That that which is to be had in one thing is yet to be had in anothe● W.T. A. Here are great words but he must know and men of understanding do know that it is not against Logick nor any right reason to say that what is alone to be had in one thing in one sense may yet be had in another to wit in another sense and in another war as Deut. 30.20 it is said of God He is thy life and we may truly add He only b And yet it is said Deu● 32.47 It is thy life that is the Word of God So Prov. 3.18 and 4.22 in like manner The Son makes fre● Jo●. 8.36 that is he only for who else is the Redeemer and yet that Redeemer saith The Truth shall make you free So God is a Saviour and there is none beside him Isa. 45.21 and yet men are ordinarily called Saviours Judg. 3.9 1 Sam. 14.45 Obad. v 21. Thus the life of a condemned Malefactor lies only in the mercy of the supreme Magistrate and yet it lies also in the pardon sealed as the Instrument reaching forth the Magistrates mercy for the Malefactors safety T.S. The Scriptures testifie of Christ but is life therefore to be had in them Pag. 25 Is the d●c●aration touching any thing the thing it self W.T. A. Whether it be the thing it self or no it s the means of obtaining it as the declaration of plenty in Egypt shewed life was to be had there directed a famished creatures to repair thither for it So the Scripture declaring the way of life with a purpose also in God in that way to bring men to it it is said truly to help us to life the rather because the Scripture not only declares the person in whom life is to be had but shews also what manner of persons we should be yea and puts us also through the Grace of God into a capacity that we may receive it from him John 20.31 yea such a neerness there is between the word of life and life it self that he who is our life saith I kn●w that his commandement that is that doctrine of the Father which himself was to deliver is everlasting life John 12.50 W. T. I would ask you this one question whereupon must I believe that Christ is the true light that lightens every man that comes into the world T. S. I ask you again whether that all the holy men of God from Abe to 〈◊〉 Pag. 26 who spake those words did believe that Christ was the true light if they did then I demand on what ground did they believe it and on what ground did John himself who spake the words believe the truth of them W. T. A. Here are shuffling things instead of answering one question of mine he puts me to answer two or three of his I shall not slide out of his questions as he doth out of mine but answer him that the holy men of God to whom that truth was revealed extraordinarily as to John and the pen-men of Scripture such truths were believed them because of that extraordinary Revelation they to whom any such was revealed before the word of God was written believed it because of the certainty of those wayes of Revelation which God was pleased to use then but since the Church of God hath had the Scriptures holy men have believed the truth of God and this in particular after it pleased God to record it because of Scripture-revelation But after this answering of his questions I must call him again to mine and ask him once more w●e●eupon he believes that Christ is the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world If he saies he believes it be extraordinary revelation let him shevv prove such a revelation which is now as needless as to do that in an extraordinary way which is already done in an ordinary way if he say he believes it because the Scripture Joh. 1.9 saith so then I say still he must believe and build on that Scripture first and so grant the Scripture to be the ground of faith otherwise the house and edifice of Quakers will fall for want of a foundation And so it will howsoever because howsoever that be an excellent and established truth yet they build ●wood hey and stubble upon it After he hath spoken his pleasure of what he calls my dro●sie interpretations which whatsoever they be were occasioned by his jugling expressions he comes further to lay open himself thus T. S. I own no Relig●on but th●t which teacheth a man to fear the Lord and work righteousness Pag. 20 to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction and to keep hi●self unspotted of the world Christ is the light of the world which I own as the founda●ion of my Religion who is within me unless I be a Reprobate W. T. A. Here 's the account of his Religion may not a man make as fair a profession as this is and yet come short of salvation But I shall explicate my self 1. I grant that they who truly fear God are the persons that shall be saved but no man fears God truly that doth not so reverence the Lord Jesus and his righteousness as therein alone to look for his salvation Phil. 3.9 2. I say that the fear of God and the working of righteousness are evidences to a man of his good estate and Gods way wherein to come to salvation
to examine what we say and to see whether God in his Word do not say it also and according as it agreeth or disagreeth with that Word so to receive it or lay it aside But withal two things may be considered 1. That it is no untruth nor immodesty to say That the Ministers of this Nation be as infallible as other Teachers are so that the matter will be brought to this issue Either there must be no Teaching and that 's against Scripture which declareth Teaching to be a perpetual Ordinance Matt. 28.19 20. and as it were the Churches Inheritance d Isa. 59.21 or else there mast be found in these dayes infallible Teachers and that 's against experience none pretending to infallibility but the Pope or they that are like him or else we must be taught and that 's the truth by men that are fallible But secondly Notwithstanding this we affirm● that what we collect by sound natural and necessary inference from Scripture that 's infallible though we be not Is it not an infallible truth that there be three Heavens though we do not read in Scripture that I remember of a first and second Heaven I mean in expresse words if there be a third Heaven which the Scripture expresly assureth us of 2 Cor. 12.2 then there must needs be two more though the Scripture name them not T.S. Take six of you that esteem your selves the most able Doctors and a portion of Scripture being given you to interpret Pag. 7 shut your selves up in six several Rooms and after some time give your interpretations thereof to one that shall receive them from each of you apart from the rest and perhaps not two of the six shall agree in the same interpretation and would you have poor people adventure their souls on the truth of such mens deductions from Scripture who dwell in such vast confusion and difference in their deductions W. T. Here 's the old Popish Argument against the Protestant Religion whereby the Franciscan Fryers may observe them to be pretty well prepared for the Pope for Papists declare we must needs want unity because we do not acknowledge one chief Pastor to wit the Successor of Saint Peter and wholly submit to his definitive Sentence In this declaration of the want of Unity the quakers join with them how hopeful therefore is the invitation Come from those dissenting men that are call'd Ministers unto us for we have one infallible proponent of Truth the Successor of Peter in whom we are all perfectly united But how well the Papists agree hath been shewed to their shame And suppose they did agree in that which is evil they are thereby in greater danger as they may understand from one that was a Pope himself but of a far better minde then his Successors who tells us and the Quakers if they please may hear it that e As it is very hurtful if Unity be wanting to the good so it is pernicious if it be not wanting to the evil who are so much the more incorrigible by how much they are the more unanimous Greg. Moral in Job Lib. 33 c. 33 But to come neerer to the matter 1. I shall relate what one hath answered them already which is this They speak of Unity but it is young dayes as yet they are but learners and imitators yet they branch themselves to walking singing naked and Virgi●-quakers f 2. I answer more particularly and it is that which is plain to those that be not partial that though the faithful Ministers of this Nation be not onely shut up in several Rooms that is confined to several stations but also live many of them in parts far distant one from another yet people hear the same things from them all in their several places I mean as to the substance and saving Truth of Religion If in some lesse things we differ God having not given to all the like light Phi. 3.16 or if the distemper and loosnesse of the times have more then ordinarily diversified us yet there is enough of that wherein we generally agree to guide the feet of the Christians into the way of Peace 3. It is not yet resolv'd that the Quakers do agree in all things among themselves for consider how high and how horrid their expressions are One said that he was equal with God Another that himself was as holy just and good as God Another she-quaker in hold at Reding being convented and asked her Name answered I am that I am and stood to it These and many more the like you finde with the proofs in the Sober Answer of the Ministers of Redding to the Epistle prefixed to this Book to which I adde what is published in answer to Mr. Ny● Mr. Goodwi● c. which is this That Christ is God and man in one person is a lye Another of the quakers said that it is alike for to take a Sentence out of their Letters that is the quakers Letters and to preach from it as to take a Sentence out of Pauls Epistles See this in the Faithful Discovery of a Treacherous Designe pag. 33. Now if this Writer and his fellow-quakers be all of this minde and close with those other of their way in the fore-recited things then there 's a good company of them if they do not then they also want Unity The Truth is It 's incident to all to agree in Error the Devil and corrupt nature furthering that conjunction it is of the Grace of God that they that are right hold together Yet that Protestant Ministers and Churches do so let the Harmony of Confessions witnesse And that the publike Teachers in this and the Neighbor-Nation do agree let the late Confession of Faith framed and concurr'd upon by the Assembly of Divines testifie T.S. Next you urge that Scripture Deut. 5.32 33. viz. You shall not turn aside to the right hand or the left c. Pag. 7 Could Moses intend this in relation to Scripture the greatest part of which was not then written W.T. Answ. Though the greatest part of Scripture was written after yet the ten Commandments in reference whereunto Moses spake those words were written then Deut. 5 22. Exod. 24.3 4. Now by the same reason whereby the Scripture written then was a Rule then by the same the Scripture written since is a Rule since to wit because it is the word of God after which our steps ought to be ordered Psal. 119.133 But the Reader may observe that he leaves out the Explication of that Scripture Deut. 5.31 32 33. whereby I shewed it to be a Rule to wit because Ye shall not turn to the right hand or the left is equivalent to this Make your Rule exactly to walk by and then asks Doth this Scripture say that the Scripture is the Saints Rule To which I answer That it saith so to his reason and conscience if he have any if not in Sillables yet in Sense T.S. Because the word Rule
to be made Ministers for which no doubt there were able and faithful Instruments and Agents employed As for his Expression of keeping Chaplains that 's but to make himself his company merry who had more need to be made wise T.S. But who are those that tryed you were they not such as are like unto your self Pag. 35 could they try your gifts who had not the gift themselves Could those that were enemies to the cross of Christ try who were fit to be made Ministers of Christ c. W.T. A. 1. If they were as he saith like my self I leave it to others to speak and judge whether they were such as he describes afterward nor would he speak so of former-Ordainers without any exception or discretion if he were as careful to speak the Truth as he is vvilling to speak the vvorst 2. Though Tryars be very blamable in regard of their personal carriage yet having abilities in themselves and rules to walk by in their examination they might make a true discovery in the capacity of Tryars An Artificer may be a dissolute man in his life and yet being skilfull in his calling may be fitter than a man of better carriage to try those that pretend to that Calling And as for grace and goodness besides that many that were Examiners and Ordainers formerly were godly men even he that we cannot say is possest with true grace himself yet may be so farre acquianted wi●h it as to be able to enquire into the probable evidences of it Whereof on the other side the holiest man that is is not able to give an infalible character in another man W.T. And that there might be an outward calling we were Ordained by Bishops that were Presbyters and other Presbyters that were not Bishops who were to be and wer● joyned with them in our Ordination T. S. You have well derived your Succession and very learnedly acknowledge your self and your Brethren to be Romes Emissaries brats of Babylon c. W.T. A. 1. He must have leave to say any thing and it must be true because he saies so who in all his Book shewes himself a man of a deceitfull tongue But were those Bishops and Presbyters Antichristian that for the testimony of Jesus were buried in Antichristian flames Or divers others that have imployed themselves from time to time since that time in the opposing of Antichrist and his antichristian doctrines renouncing also in their practice his waies of worship 2. If he say they were Antichristian because their Ordination and call to the Ministry came from Antichrist although I doubt not they that fear God sufficiently see the Lords approbation of our Ministry by the effect they have found it to have on their hearts and souls yet for their further satisfaction this being a thing that is still urged by those of all sorts that are adversaries to the Ministry I shall give this more particular account of it First as ordinary Ministers that is Pastors and Teachers are from Christ Ephes. 4.11 and the ordinary way of their ordination also is from Christ Tit. 1.5 so the ordaining of publick Teachers in that way was not from but long before Antichrist for we find it in Scripture Acts 14.23 1 Tim. 4.14 If the Ministry be said to have been under Antichrist it is not denyed but that amounts to no more but that it passed through Antichrist as the Scriptures also did and the ordinance of Baptism which it is confessed are not therefore to be rejected Now though it be granted that our Ministry came through Antichrist yet that doth not prove that it came from him but that it came not from him for how could that come from him that was before him and onely passed through him as an Army through an enemies countrey Nor is it denyed that this and other Ordinances were defiled in the passage but its one thing to be made ●oul another thing to be made null and to loose their nature and substance It is observed that Priests and School doctors ordained in popish Churches and Schools were by Oath solemnly bound to confute errour and to maintain the antient Apostolick Faith I am saith Luther a baptized Christian and withall a sworn Doctor of the holy Scripture and a daily preacher whom it concerns in regard of my name condition oath and office to ab●lish perverse false seducing impious doctrines or at least to hinder them And this reason he gives of his burning of popish and poisoning b Books As this on the one side addes little to the reputation of the Church of Rome who though they had the things of God yet have managed them for the devils use no more than it added to Belshashers honour and happiness that he had in his custody the Golden vessels that were taken out of the Temple of the house of God to drink and quaff in Dan. 5.3 So on the other side it cannot be justly reckoned a disparagement to our Ministry received from Christ and his Apostles and the Primitive Churches that it hath passed through and been polluted by the Romish Channel no more than it was a dishonour to those holy Vessels or them that bare them and ministred with them Isa 52.11 that they were abused to the praise of Idol gods in Babilon Dan. 5.4 when after they came to be used according to the minde and to the honour of the true God in Sion Secondly I answer That if there had been no lawfull Call to the Ministry in the Church of Rome no not for substance yet our first Reformers and noble Predecessors might be surely said to be lawfully called because they being men of extraordinary abilities spirits and zeal for God and so inwardly and eminently qualified and called were also accepted chosen and clos'd with and outwardly called by the Church of God that is by those Christians that were lovers of the truth and wayes of God in those corrupt times whereby they might be truely said as things then stood to be sufficiently set apart for the ministerial work Obj. But you say Ministers are to be Ordained by Ministers and to be set apart by the Presbytery c Answ. True regularly and in settled times and when it may be had for Paul doth not send to the Christians of Cre●e to Ordain Elders themselv●s but he leaves Titus to do it But many things may be done lawfully in a confused time and when Churches are in constituting and reforming that are not to be allowed when they are once formed and settled When a town is on fire every one that hath a Bucket that hath strength and means to do it is called to quench it The world was all on a flame as it were by the popish fire This fire was to be quenched that it might not devoure all The first Reformers had Buckets that is gifts and abilities to draw water out of the wells of salvation to prevent the consumption of all right