The Prisoner against the Prelate OR A DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE Common Goal AND CATHEDRAL OF LINCOLN WHEREIN The true Faith and Church of Christ are briefly discovered vindicated BY Authority of Scripture Suffrages of Antiquity Concessions and Confessions of the Chief Opposers of the same Church and Faith Written by a Prisoner of the Baptised Churches in Lincolnshire O my Dove that art in the clefts of the Rocks in the secret places of the stairs let me see thy countenance let me hear thy voice for sweet is thy voice and thy countenance is comly Cant. 2. 4. I sit as a Queen and shall see no sorrow Rev. 18. 7. Prisoner Prelate You look too much upon the Walls c. the Mountains Caves and Prisons are more sure places to me Bernard A PROBLEME demonstrated AND Fixed to the ensuing Dialogue instead of an Epistle to the Reader The PROBLEME No Learned English-man can modestly pretend to know the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Tongues so far as they only concern the holy Scripture any whit more in substance or effect than such us are Vnlearned The Demonstration IS it not the usual refuge of many in our Age to fly to their particular skill in the Hebrew and Greek Tongues as a sufficient defence against such as are not skilled in the literature thereof when opposed about such things touching Religion as for which the English Text affords nothing Yea it is even deemed enough to silence the Unlearned when assaying to reason about Religion to tell them They are unlearned know not the Originals understand no Greek c. Upon this occasion I have taken this their Plea into consideration to see whether it be of such weight as is commonly thought And verily to the utmost of my understanding it seems to have nothing of strength in it for to say nothing of this vain boast of their knowledge of the Originals of holy Scripture when yet they never saw them nor know where to look for them I say to let this pass if we consider diligently wherein the effectual and substantial knowledg of the Hebrew Greek Text of Scripture lieth we shall find that as touching Englishmen it lieth not in the knowledge of the Characters or Words of these Tongues for this a Child of seven years old may know but that which is the effectuall knowledge of the Hebrew or Greek Tongues to an Englishman is His knowing the true English of the Hebrew and Greek Characters and Words For example these Hebrew and Greek Letters avail an Englishman nothing so long as he can only sound them in the Hebrew and Greek Dialects thus Aleph Beth Gimel c. or Alpha Beta Gamma c. But that which is the effectual knowledge of these Letters to an Englishman is to know that they are of the same signification with the English A. B. G. The like may be said of words for so long as our English-men can onely sound the Hebrew word El or the Greek word Theo it edifieth not the understanding but when we know these words are the same in signification with our English word God this is that understanding of the Hebrew and Greek which to us is truly effectual for whatsoever sounds our lips pronounce be they Hebrew Greek or Latin our understanding receiveth these several sounds in the English tongue This being evident it now remains to be considered whether it be not possible as things now stand for such English-men as know not the Hebrew or Greek Characters and Words yet for all that to know the most proper and effectual signification of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Old and New Testaments That thus it may be and is will thus appear Either the Translations which we have are the same in substance and effect with the Hebrew and Greek Bible or they are not If they be the same in substance and effect Then such as know the Scripture as translated into English do know the substance and effect of the Hebrew and Greek Bible Yea further If the learned Translators whether Cantabrigians and Oxonians or else the Rhemists themselves knew the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Bible Then we who are unlearned do know the same This must needs be true or else we must conclude that they knew the true meaning and yet delivered a false but this were a great violation of Charity to think that they would thus abuse themselves and the whole race of English-men or expose their Credit to everlasting contempt and themselves and followers to eternal destruction and all this wilfully and only about the signification of Words and Letters and not about the Doctrine contained therein for Translation and Exposition are two things But this I say were a great breach of Charity to think and must needs argue great pride in any to affirm and would certainly expose not only such particular Learned-men who so highly stand upon their Learning but also whole Conventions of them to unavoidable suspition let them give forth never so sincere a Translation and the rather because so many eminent for Learning and Industry have vigorously and unanimously pressed the Unlearned to adhere to the English Text as the undoubted Voice of God speaking by his lively Oracles the Scriptures Now then if our English-Translation be indeed the same in substance and effect with the Hebrew Greek Bibles at least to the best of the understanding of the Learned Translators and that their understanding may well be preferred before the understanding of any one learned English-man now living Then it followeth that such as know the English-Text do in substance and effect know the Hebrew and Greek Text at least so far as may equallize the knowledge of any learned English-man now living Because that which the Translators DID know the same for substance We DO know And that which they attained to through much study we know without either learning or study further than to hear or read the Text of Scripture in our Mother-Tongue For the Translation which they gave forth was by their own solemn protestation the utmost for substance of their knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Bible But we have this their Translation Therefore we have in substance the same knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Bible which the learned Translators had This might be further illustrated by the consideration of divers Arts and obscure Mysteries which at the first were not found out without great learning and travel but when once a familiar discovery thereof was made divers have been expert therein and that without the help of that learning and study which first brought them forth As thus The Unlearned may defend themselves in the use of Holy Scriptures when concerned in any Controversie with the Learned about matters of Religion So also may they defend themselves in using the Works of Greek or Latin Writers so far as they are found to be translated into the
deem Than other places this though strange it seem I can prove true for in the Gospel day Distinctions of this kind are done away Cathederal It seems then I no holier am then thou In thy conceit but Scripture doth us show There 's holy ground as well as ground prophane Place where God will be worship'd and again Place where he will no Sacrifice accept But th'Off'rer and th' Oblation both reject Jayle The Scripture shews that such esteem there WAS Of Place but shews that such esteem should pass Away from Christians wherefore I say Thy Ground or Place no holier is this day Than other places wherefore every where Men may with holy hearts in prayer appear Cathederal My Place must needs be holy for this cause It builded was therein to teach Gods Laws It consecrated was also by those Whom God to minister his Word there chose So was not every place then thou dost ill Thus to compare thy Place with this my Hill Jayle Were all this proved which thou never can Yet mine 's as holy seeing such a man As Christ hath sanctifi'd each place so far As therein he 'll accept of holy Prayer And Paul i' th Jayle at Midnight sang an Hymn Such as few singers ever sang in thine Cathederal Well I perceive I must with thee engage In a Religious contest ere this Age Doth terminate Then let us now propose The Point to be Disputed and then close In Argument The Question then shall he About the Church Whether 't be Me or Thâ—e Jayle No Question like to this the Church once found Will for our finding all Truth prove a Ground So clear that we no Truth shall need to know But she will strait be ready it to show Then fit thy self thy Church for to maintain For that 's the thing I question to be plain Cathederal Dost question that then that will I defend Against thy Opposition Now descend To some particularities that we The reason of thy doubt may fully see And fairely Answer Then let 's see the ground Thou hast to prove thy Church and Doctrine sound Jayle Well then the first place where I shall detect thee For no true Church now let who can protect thee Is thy Minority or want of Age To be esteemed for that Matron sage Espous'd to Christ 'bove sixteen hundred years Ago whilst thou as yesterday appears Cathederal Blis me Did ever any creature know A Jayl that had a more unshamefac'd brow Than thou in this What do not I well know ye To be of Leidens breed of Munster trow ye For shame leave talking of Antiquity Thou art in no respect so old as I. Jayle Alas I see thou knowst me not i' th least Whilst thou deriv'st my line from that mad beast Of Munster ' gainst whose pranks I did protest Even in those dayes as Cassander hath prest Me forth in Print and sith he doth acquit me Thy Callumny in this case cannot hit me Cathederal What wilt deny thy Father do not each My Pulpits sound thee forth when there I preach For such an Upstart Yea my Doctors all There shew thy Radix this their Volumns shall Attest yea th'Papists whom thou sayst acquit thee Say Munster as thy Patriarch befits thee Jayle Thy Doctors and the Papists sometimes say I am no older than that Germans fray Yet otherwhile they both confess I came Down from th'Apostls times now then for shame Insist not on their witness which appears In its Concordance like two Dogs by th' ears Cathederal Sure thou dost wrong both Papists and my Men Beware how thou dost thus imploy thy Pen For if thou shew not from sufficient ground Where they themselvs in this case thus confound I will requite thee as a false accuser And of these reverend Clerks a great abuser Jayle First Willet in 's Synopsis Papismi Opposing Papists 'bout Antiquity Observes that Bernard names some Sectaries Who Pedobaptisme did much despise They 'r call'd Apostolicks because 't is thought From th'Postles times these Sectaries came out Cathederal I find that Willet speaks to this effect But those bore not the name of thy proud Sect Men may deny to baptize Infants so They may deny Believers Baptism too So then this Instance thee no way assists Vnless these men were prov'd Anabaptists Jayle The Papists in their Book of Motives say Th'Apostolicks were such as at this day Are called Anabaptists yea that name They do expresly give them and the same Thy old Friend Marbeck gives to some in Rome In Anno Dom. One hundred fifty one Cathedral I read these Books and must confess I find These things are so What then Thou art behind Some which do boast of their Antiqâ—ity From such like proves to wit the Papacy But yet all this cannot evince the truth Of their Church-state nor yet of thine forfooth Jayle If I no better Plea in this respect Can shew than th'Papists thou shalt me reject As one that 's noval but at present I Am not engag'd for my Antiquity 'T is thou O Minster which must now engage To prove thy self Christs Church in point of age Cathederal Come on I reason thus from Featly's mouth That Church is of full age whose Doctrine's Truth Perpetual unchanged and I say Such is my Doctrine wherefore now I may Conclude with him that thus my Church is true Thy Answer now bring forth to open view Jayle I do deny thy Minor and I say Thy Doctrine which gives enterance to thy way Of Church-ship is not true nor yet so old As in the Scriptures to be found enrol'd For thou without Christs Soul-converting Word Thy Church with carnal members hast bestor'd Cathederal 'T is true my Members now are wholly such When I receive them as no word can touch In order to Conversion yet I say The holy Scripture will evince my way Was not our Father Abra'm and his Seed Brought into one Church-state search now and read Jayle I search and find That unto every Nation To every Creature good news of Salvation For Faith and for Repentance must be taught Before into Christs Church they can be brought Contrary-wise 't is clear that Abr'ams Seed Had no such Obligation that we read Cathederal The Parents do believe and so the Child For Abra'ms Seed in Holy Writ are stil'd Gods Covenant which Abram is the same That 's made with us now therefore here again See how thou err'st making Parental-Faith So needful to let in to th'Churches Path. Jayle The Scripture shews most plain that Abrams Seed In Gospel-times are such as own his Creed Also the Scriptures quite dissolve that Plea Of Parent-interest in a Gospel-day The Jews are Abrams Seed and yet 't is plain That makes them not in 's Covenant remain Cathederal I tell thee Christian-Infants are as free To Gospel-Priviledges as we see The Children of the Jewes were in their time To Legal Rites thus doth my Doctrine shine And is most Antient being not deny'd Till such
in Adam all die both just and unjust so in Christ shall all both believers and unbelievers rise though unto punishment III. ARTICLE There 's one Lord Jesus Christ I do believe By whom all things their beings do receive The only natural Son of the most High Yet born of Mary in virginity And so considered is as David's Son And Off-spring for to sit upon his Throne Yet as he is the Son of God he 's Lord And Root of David and th' Eternal Word This is he whom the Father freely sent In his great Love into the World who went As freely and to death for all he gave Himself that all to life recourse might have The witness of Antiquity The World being all at peace Christ according to the precedent Prophecy was born in Bethlehem Judah being openly Man of the Virgin his Mother and secretly God of God his Father Christ Jesus the substance of Israel and the son of David God's Son of God taking on our Man without wasting Godhead ordained Faith to be a pass for man to God by his mean that was both God and Man IV. ARTICLE God's will is not that any man should perish Wherefore that dying mankind he might cherish His Son the Lord of all hath given Order The Gospel should be preached in each Border to ev'ry Creature and to every Nation To wit that God holds forth Non-imputation Of sins so that men shall not die because Christ dy'd not for them but because his Laws And Word which calls for Faith in his rich Death Men do reject and so themselves bequeath To Infidelity Hence it is clear That to all men at sometime doth appear So much of Grace as if they rightly mind it It holds forth Life to them that they find it The test of Antiquity God would have all men to be saved but if they come to him he so would it not as that he would save them against their will Christ in mercy was born for all but the unfaithfulness of Hereticks is the câ—use that he that was born to all is not born for all In respect of the greatness of the price the Blood of Christ is the Redemption of the whole World V. ARTICLE Concerning those whom Christ appoints for such As are the Pastors of the gospel-Gospel-Church I do believe that they must first be added Unto the Church as were those who were gladded With Peters words and growing in their stations In gtacious gifts and good qualifications And throughly tryed by their exereising Their gifts the holy Scripture so advising Such men the Church may chuse them ordain To minister as Pastors in Christ's Name By laying on of hands with holy prayers Assigning them to their respective cares To gather Churches or to feed and guide them But as for such who for a while abide them In humane Schools only to be instructed In humane Arts and so to be inducted Without Repentance and Baptism succeeding With growth in Grace unto a Parish feediâ—n Or rather to feed on their large Revenue Than to gain souls to Truth there to continue Such I do say no Teachers ought to be But should be taught the Christian A. B. C. The rest of Antiquity Eusebius all edging the Epistle of Alexander Bp of Jernsalem against Demetrius saith Thou saist it was never seen that the lay and secular people should dispute of the Faith in the presence of the Bishops I marvel what moved thee to affirm a Lie so evident inasmuch that as often as there is found any man that is sufficient and apt to give good counsel and to instruct the people the Bishops have accustomed to desire him to do it as the Bishop of Mâ—oâ— did Enelpius c. And there is no doubt but that the other Bishops may do the like in their Diocesses when they find any one which is a man fit to profit the people Ye drive them from God's Word and will let no man come thereto till he have been two years Master of Arts. First you nurse them up in Sophistry and in bene fundantum and there corrupt their judgments then they begin not at the Scripture but each one chuseth himself a Doctor severally c. VI. ARTICLE Touching the way of man's Justification Before the Lord in order to Salvation I say it is by Faith in Christ our Lord That is with heart believing that sweet word Which shews to man in Christ there is remission Of sins for all through faith through contrition For which great cause Christ worthily bespeaketh Their chief affections and their fouls so breaketh Wholly to yeeld to Christs most just Commands And to deny all Self which Christ withstands And eke with godly sorrow do commit Themselves to Christ's Grace to depend on it Such like believing men are justifi'd Their Faith will Righteousness be found when try'd The test of Antiquity The Medicine of the Soul is the only propitiation for the sins of all that is to believe in Christ How virtuous soever the antient righteous persons have been they were not saved but by Faith It is manifest that such as have Faith in Christ shall not be saved unless they have the Life of Faith VII ARTICLE There is but only one most holy Spirit Which God doth give such richly to inherit As do obey his Voice that they thereby May have the Grace themselves to mortify And be enabled in the Truth to stand Immovably thout which no mortal hand Can do the work of God and that we may Honour the Father and the Son each day Who is the Author and the Consummator Of all our Faith And John that Revelator Doth say this Father Son and holy Spirit Are One and so the Name of God they merit The fruits which follow this great gifts reception Is growth in ev'ry grace and sins rejection Wherefore we say these have it not received Who are of Love that Spirit fruit bereaved Or destitute so as they such deny A quiet life that would live peaceably The test of Antiquity That Spirit being the Fathers and the Sons is properly in Scripture called the Holy Spirit It is neither Father nor Son but personally distinct from both and this Trinity is one God Behold the sign and token whereby ye shall know those that are of God from the evil and wicked Those are the wicked which do kill and lead into captivity the which all those that are of God have not done nor do O Lord God these are the chiefest and first that persecuted thee whom men see to love the highest seats and rooms in thy Church and which bear the greatest rule They have taken the Ark of Zion they have occupied and used the Castle and have afterward frankly and by power set all the City on fire Their conversation is miserable The subversion of thy People is pitiful Now holy Orders are given for occasion of most
filthy gain and they think gain to be piety and godliness VIII ARTICLE About Election this is that I 've said That God from aye before the World was made Hath chosen unto Life such as believe And so in Christ through grace he 'l them receive Yet I am confident God's purpose here Stands not upon what Faith did fore-appear Or Works done by the creature but alone God's Mercy Kindness and Compassion Thus 't is of God who calleth Yet behold Let no man think that now he may be bold To live in sin for as our God is pure So can he no ungodly man endure Then this Decree to every Godly man Hath its extent as David witness can The test of Antiquity According to his mercy he saved us This goodness which doth flourish in Christians doth arise out of the root of Divine Piety or Love for God by his Mercy hath saved us in Christ The Apostle saith not he hath chosen us when we were holy but that we should be holy Election goeth not onely before Works but before Faith where all good Works do begin IX ARTICLE Concerning Reprobation this I say No men as men of old were cast away But as they have God's Grace in wantonness Abus'd and lived in ungodliness To those indeed God sendeth strong delusions That they might damned be Sith vain confusions They rather chose than Truth in faithful love And hence it is God's Wrath ' gainst men doth move Yea against ev'ry soul that doeth evil So as to die the servant of the Devil The test of Antiquity The Damned cannot complain justly because it is their wickedness that doth cast them down into pain He was worthy to lose an unprofitable Faith which did not exercise Charity God is good and he is just He may save a man without good works of his because he is good but he cannot condemn any man without his evil deserts because he is just X. ARTICLE Concerning Infants I believe they shall Suffer no death but that that 's temporal And this their father Adam brought upon them But th'second Adam shal take it quite from them And further than that death that 's temporal No one shall die for Adams sinful fall Christ hath avouched Infants ' thout exception To appertain to Heav'n Then rejection Of Infants into Hell is such a preaching As doth want Charity and cross the teaching And nature of our God Yet thus they teach Who do the Church her Baptisme impeach Contending that to Infants it pertains To some of whom yet they allow no gains By means of Christ his Death for this they say He only dy'd for some And now we may Demand how they did know he dy'd for those Whom they baptize and did the rest dispose To hellish torments See the cruelty Of those who sprinkle Babes infancy The test of Antiquity By the death of the body we read of some that have dyed not for their own but for others sins But in the death of the soul none dieth for another God cannot condemn any man without his evil deserts because he is just XI ARTICLE The only way by God and Christ ordained Whereby the sons of men should be constrained To sit down in Christs Church is Gospel-preaching Wherein a reconciled God is stretching His Hand of Love extensively to all And then to dip or baptize such as shall Repent from sin and faith in Christ profess Through Gods forbearance and great tenderness I say such only as are catechised Are in the Scripture bid to be baptized Into the Name of Father Son and Spirit But as for those who would by Legal merit Or Parent int'rest bring a fleshly seed Into the Gospel-Church all such indeed I do deny with that Scriptureless thing Most truly called Infant Sprinkling Which custom hath or would make void God's Word And bind the Church still with a Legal cord Unto a fleshly line And the New-birth Would as a useless thing fall to the Earth This is one reason why we separate From all such persons that participate We may not with these darksome wayes of theirs But rather by reproofs break through these snares The test of Antiquity The Lord commanded his Apostles that they should first instruct and teach all Nations and afterward should baptize those that were instructed in the mysteries of Faith For it cannot be that the body should receive the Sacrament of Baptism unless the soul hath received before the true Faith The dipping into the Water is the going down into Hell the coming up out of the Water is the Resurrection We must know that at the first Believers were baptized simply in Flouds and Fountains XII ARTICLE I also do believe that the baptized Believing souls ought thus to be advised To seek unto the Lord for his donation The Spirits gifts for their mortification That by that Grace their Life their Profession May not unto each other seem oppression The way to ask this Gift in Scripture stands Known to be Prayer with laying on of hands As one first point which in Christs doctrin's shown Whereby his Saints are from all others known The test of Antiquity Laying on of hands hath ever been the custom of the Church Laying on of hands what is it but prayer over a man The first degree of Christianity is to be repentant of our former life Next to be taught that true-innocency and soul-health is to be hoped-for of God Then forthwith that we be purged by holy Baptism Then that we receive the holy Ghost by laying-on of hands XIII Article Concerning Perseverence this I say And do believe that in Christ's blessed way Men ought without a tossing to and fro Continue stedfast and these things must do Meet in a Church-Society together In the Apofiles Doctrine to consider And call to mind in Pray'r with breaking Bread Their Saviour till he come to raise the dead The test of Antiquity I pray you O ye Bishops which do think your selves to be so What Suffrages have the Apostles used for to preach the Gospel with what power were they aided Did they assemble the Church by the Kings Edict They nourished and kept themselves by their hand-labour and assembled the Church against the Edicts of Kings When wise and good People do meet together we must not call that a Faction or Sect. Saint Luke declareth the Order of the primitive-Primitive-Church That the Faithful assembled themselves often times for to preach the Word and celebrate the Lords Supper We assemble to pray for the Emperour c. and for Peace to make commemoration of Divine Scriptures and do feed and nourish the Faith with voice and holy words We plant and graft most strongly our Faith And do labour much to imprint in our hearts the discipline of the Commandments XIV Article I say moreover though I thus contend For th' old Church
as thou oppos'd it in your pride Jayle I know thy Conscience tells thee there is need Of FAITH to give admittance to the Seed Of Christians unto Gospel-Sacraments For of thy Doctrine these are the Contents That Faith and true Repentance are expected Of all ere they to Bapti'm are elected Cathederal 'T is true I say Faith and Repentance are Requir'd of All as needful to prepare Them unto Baptisme but then you know Sith Infants cannot do this I allow Them Sureties who for them do then Believe And eke Repent before I them receive Jayle Well now you grant Repentance joyn'd with Faith Must be before any Admittance hath Into the Church TO THIS I DO AGREE So that the Difference 'twixt thâ—e and me Is this thou cal'st Grown Persons to Repent And then Baptisest a poor Innocent Cathederal Though this I hold 't is not a Noval thing For proof of this Authorities I 'll bring From Antient times which are irrefragable At least they 'r such as thou canst not disable The Wisdom of the Church did Infants give This Priviledge that they for aye might live Jayle This Doctrine is too new to be esteem'd True or Perpetual though by you deem'd Of such great worth Reduce this false account For it to more than nought will ne're amount O Rotten Church not now one member's known When he 's Unchurch'd to have Faith of his own Cathederal Thou lay'st so great a stress on this one Point As if 't would prove each member out of Joynt What must my Doctrine stand or fall as here I Vanquished or Victor do appear Sure though this ground I yeeld I never shall To ruine in my Church or Doctrine fall Jayle Well yeeld this ground then thou hast no faiâ—h When th' art enchurched so thou maist be grath Thou art foundationsess therefore must fall For what 's anothers Faith a rotten Wall For thee to lean upon wherefore I say This false Prop gon thy Church soon fades away Cathederal That Doctrine which I preach for a Foundation Is Christ as Crucifi'd for mans Salvation There is no Name nor Thing whereon I found My Church save this wherefore my Root issound 'T is neither Baptisme nor yet Sureties Which a Foundation-place for me supplies Jayle Alas what 's all this Talk if without Faith Which I have shew'd none of thy Members hath At their Admission nor for many Years The least lota of true Faith appears This is thy State O Minster at the best Anothers not thy own Faith which thou hast Cathederal I told thee I can prove what here I hold To be the same the Church receiv'd of old As that 's my Task and were my Study here I 'de shew this Custom 'bove One thousand year The Church hath used wherefore 't is no new Devised Fable but a Point most true Jayle No Study can accommodate thee so As to prove Sponsers Faith the Means which do Give any entrance in a Scripture way Into Christs Church wherefore I boldly say 'T is a meer Novalty and did arise When darkness came by means of Heresies Cathederal I see thou standst upon Antiquity Only as Scripture doth it amplify From whence I must confess an Evidence Cannot in terminis be fetched thence But let us hear what further thou canst say Against the use of Sponsers Faith this day Jayle I note this further as a consequence Of what thou 'st said me thinks it follows thence That Infants must sit down at Christ his Table If others Faith to Baptism them enable For can the Church in this their wants supply And not in that This soundeth monstrously Cathederal The Case is not alike for God requires A Self-examination and desires Men should the Body of our Lord discern When they approach that holy Rite to learn That so they may not drink their Condemnation In that which is ordain'd for Consolation Jayle 'T is true God call for this then pray thee why Canst thou not learn these Reasons to apply To holy Baptisme in which our Lord More Frequently requires Faith in his Word With true Repentance thus these Cases are Alike made manifest and so appear Cathederal The Churches Judgment doth the one allow And not the other unto Infants Now Either the Church or thou O Jayle must be Deceived but canst thou more clearly see Than she who hath the eye of Learning bright Sure no then cease against the Church to fight Jayle How like to Rome is this thy Argument Dost thou not know that this same Sacrament Was also given to Infants in Old time Sure there 's as plain a ground for this as thine Alleag'd for Infant-Baptism hence 't is clear As th' one so th' other thou should'st quite forbear Cathederal I know that Rome this Argument doth bring To force us when the Text saith no such thing And sure the Churches Judgment will out-weigh The private Judgement of such as inveigh Against her doings and I 'll hold me here Until a means of greater strength appear Jayle Admit the Sentence of the Church be great In things most doubtful yet I must entreat Thee not to use it till thou 'st proved plain Thy self to be that Church Yet here again I needs must tell thee That the Doctors all Engag'd ' gainst Rome about thine ears do fall Cathederal Some of my Doctors sang a Strain too high When in this Point engag'd ' gainst Popery I likewise grant before this Plea be mine I must as a true Church conspicuous shine Which I shall do ere this Discourse have end Then to the next Objection let 's descend CHAP. II. The Arg. 'Gainst Nations by the Lump For Churches being made The Jayle Disputes the Minster strives T' uphold that golden Trade Jayle MY next Objection O Cathederal Is this Christ hath no Church that 's National But Nationall thy Church is known to be Ergo Not Christ's Church but a Pedigree Of Persons yet unfit for Church-Communion Though thou with them and they with thee have Union Cathederal Fond Jayle didst never read what David said In Psalm the second were description's made Of Christ his Church to have her propagation Amongst the Gentiles to their utmost Nations And when the Kingdom was tane from the Jewes 'T was given unto a Nation Scripture shews Jayle Peter doth well expound the second Psalm In Acts the tenth when sent with Gospel-Balm Unto Cesaria where Gods acceptation Extends to such as fear him in each Nation In Peters time no Church was National Yet Holy Nation Peter doth her call Cathederal So then it seems the Church is National But by a Figure Metaphorical Consisting but of such as joyntly hold A Union in those Laws which are enrol'd In Divine Writ as touching Church-affairs I like not this for it my Pomp impairs Jayle Christ saith The Gospel would Divisions cause Such as were not occasion'd by the Laws Of Moses for in Families there should Two this three that three this and two that hold But
Christs Church I loose This is Jayl-Logick and to Jayl must go Or else the reason I 'm resolv'd to know Jayl It follows clearly and I marvel why Any wise-man can Rome the name deny Of Church if they true Baptisme and Power In Church-concerns retain unto this hour If these Essentials be truly there For lesser faults t is hard the Church to tear Cathedral O but she 's full of faults and those most great For by unwritten things she doth defeat Poor souls of Gods most holy Ordinances VVhich Saints have counted rich Inheritances My Doctors shew how much I do detect her Of this Abuse and therefore do reject her Jayle Unwritten things Thou canst not without shame Blame her in this because thou dost the same For wher 's thy Common Pray'r-Book or thy Crossings Found in the Scripture more than Popish-Massings Were not thy Organ Pipes and Antick Dressings Found in one Chapter with the Popes Confessings Cathederal Well but they worship Images which I Reject as being gross Idolatry Indeed it is unsufferable folly For men to count a carved Post for holy And then to bow before what their own hands Have made contrary to our Lords Commands Jayle Alas thou' rt every whit as far amiss For I have seen thee do as much as this What means thy frequent bowing to that Board In this thy Quire How canst thou think our Lord Will ' low thee this and not allow them that Sith all 's but Wood by you set up in State Cathederal 'T is true I bow to th' Altar but what tho I do not worship it as these men do Their graven Images for 't is most plain They Idolize But as for me I feign No holiness inherent for to be In th' Altar when to it I bow my knee Jayle This is the Papists Plea for what they do In Image-Worship yea they tell thee so In express words accursing every one Which worship Images of Wood or Stone Now therefore if this Plea for thee will serve 'T will Image-Worship full as well preserve Cathederal I wish thou be no Papist all this while Thy disputation savours of their Stile Nor need I doubt but Rome hath her Consorts With thee who in a hidden way deports Themselves that so they may advantage take My Church and all her holy things to shake Jayle Mistake not Minster I no Papist am I only shew what thou must say and can Noâ— choose but say till thou be better grounded That when thou call'st Rome Whore thou art confounded With her because in truth she is thy Mother She tells thee so and thou canst shew no other Cathederal All this thou speak'st because I was baptiz'd By th' Roman Church and also emolliz'd Or form'd into a Church and there Ordain'd By Babylonish Priests with whordoms stain'd This I must grant We likewise had from thence The Scriptures yet thou canst with them dispense Jayle The latter will not prove the former sound For though a Jew or Turk the Book had found And so from them I should receive the same Yet hence no man could argue without shame That now if by the Jew or Turk we be Ordained Bishops it must satisfie Cathederal VVell if 't be so that th'VVhore of Babylon Can give no Baptisme then I have none Or if she could no Bishops well Ordain I must confess my calling will prove vain But yet I 'll hold me where I am till thou A way more clear than this my way canst show Jayle Who ere they be gives others holy Orders Must needs be such as are within the borders Of holy Church now sith thou dost exclude Rome from the Church to thee she 's not endu'd With power Ordinative But the way Of Ordination I 'll anon display CHAP. IV. The Arg. The Jayle the Minster doth detect As unbaptiz'd and vain The Minster doth the Charge reject The Jayle doth it maintain Jayle BEcause six Lines no Preface will allow My next Objection presently I 'll show Which on an Antient Maxime I will ground No BAPTISME No CHURCH can wel be found VVherefore the Point for thee to Answer shall Be this Thou hast no Baptisme at all Cathederal Prodigious Jayl where got'st thou this Objection 'T is some Anabaptistical infection But sith thou haâ—t my Christendom deny'd First I 'll appeal to Rome there to be try'd From whom my Infant-sprinkling I receiv'd Which to be Baptisme is now believ'd Jayle 'T is well confest and lo what shall I think How canst thou now refuse with Rome to drink Their Transubstantiated Cup sith thou Thy Babyes-Sprinkling from Rome must avow But let Rome judge and she will tell thee plain No Scripture owns thy Sprinkling so 't is vain Cathederal Rome doth indeed tell thee and all men so But she had beâ—ter have said nothing tho But as for me I Scriptures can produce Which shew Infant-Bapti'm th'Apostles use I other proves from Circumcision draw To prove the point in hand a divine Law Jayle If Circumcision be thy President The Papists say Baptism hath no extent To Femals for the Law only assigns For Circumcisions subjects Masculines And for thy other Texts 't is a vain crack The Learned Papists say such Texts you lack Cathederal What art thou turned Papist that thou dost Of their Confessions in this case so boast But see my Texts Matthew the twenty eight With Acts the second gives apparent light For Infant-Baptisme So the sixteenth Of th' Acts and seventh of the first Corinth Jayle Teaching precedes Baptizing Matthew saith Both Texts in th' Acts the same in substance hath That Text in Corinths speaks not of Baptizing So then sith Infants are of Catechizing Uncapable these Texts teach no such thing As that for which thou dost them hither bring Cathederal Infants are holy Ergo they must be Baptized in the name of th'Trinity All Nations are enjoyn'd to be baptiz'd Herein whole Families were not despis'd Here 's ground enough to prove Infant-Baptism And consequently to rebuke thy Schism Jayle The unbelieving Husband 's sanctifi'd Thy Logick saith Baptism must be apply'd To them Yea They are part of every Nation Ergo must be Baptized if thy fashon Oâ— arguing be good but this may shew How 't is unsound inconsequent untrue Cathederal Thou tak'st no notice of the Families Which I observ'd th'Apostles did Baptize This Allegation is unanswerable Ergo Infant-Baptism stands here most stable I challenge thee resolve this if thou can For 't is not yet resolv'd by any man Jayle The Texts are clear the same that were Baptiz'd Were first by Paul and Silas Catechiz'd 'T is said they did Believe in God also Th' Apostles for to visit them did go As they were Brethren which things consider'd Thy boasting of thy proof from hence is wither'd Cathederal Proud Jayle how i' st thou darest thus contemn The Expositions of my Learned men Who with one voyce these Texts do explicate My Pedobaptisme to vindicate Art thou grown wiser
my Common-Prayer-Book I allow That way in case of weakness But I show In the same place that dipping is God's way For Baptisme to be perform'd this day Jayle I do confess thou sayst so but behold When thou presumed for to be so bold To give an inch thy Doctors took an ell And now this weakness doth all strength expel Out of thy Church And God's way is rejected And as a foolish thing by thee neglected Cathedral No Alteration in these things I see Will be assented to by such as thee As if we must in these cold Climates go Into the Water when baptis'd But lo. The time requires the Conference should end Now therefore unto what remains descend CHAP. V. The Arg. The Minster's Consistory Court The Jayle to visit goes The Minster takes it in ill sort She should that place disclose Jayle MOngst other things whereby Christs Church doth shine We are to reckon Christian Discipline This Ornament thou wants Whence I conclude Christs Church consists not of thy multitude Nor yet of this thy gorgious Courtly Tent Because you all reject Christ's Government Cathederal What! dost ' come here to hold thy Visitation That thou beginst to make this exclamation Against my Court whose wayes thou cast not know Nor will I unto thee my secrets show Yet will I this my Government maintain ' Gainst which thou mayest strive but all in vain Jayl Well but before we try thy Discipline Let 's take a view of those brave men of thine Which are thy Officers let 's know their names Or Titles for behold their glorious Trains Seem to import they are no Fishers mates Nor yet like Paul Tent-makers sociates Cathederal These are their Titles and the first degree Arch-Bishops are the next Lord-Bishops be Attended with their Bishops Suffragans Arch-Deacons Deans and Chapters Courtezans With Iudges Surrogates and Proctors store Apparitors with very many more Jayle Arch-Bishops and Lord-Bishops what is this Did not our Saviour all such titles hiss Out of his Church when his Disciples would Have bin the chief that so they might have rul'd By Domination over those to whom Christ did intend they servants should become Cathederal Unless these Titles ' gainst plain Scripture be Thou canst not them condemn nor do I see Those Texts alledg'd which any whit oppose These Titles but 't is meant of such as those Which Papists give unto their Popes But I Have eft condemned that Supremacy Jayle Thy Titles are as much beyond the Line Of holy Writ and full as clandestine As those amongst the Papists for whilst they Make one great Pope now heed well what I say Thou makest many Popes for thy Arch-Lords Their Fancies force upon us for God's words Cathedral I thee require some Scriptures to produce Which shews my Titles to be such abuse As they prohibit otherwise thy plea In this our contest cannot mine outweigh For all things which ' mongst Papists are esteem'd Must not unlawful for that cause be deem'd Jayle Peter an Elder Elders doth command The Churches oversight to take in hand Without becoming Lords and Paul avows He preached Christ as Lord and likewise shows He preach'd himself a servant for Christ's sake To th'Church now this against thy Lords doth make Cathedral 'T is true the letter of these Scriptures do Seem to oppose Lord-Bishops but you know The Scripture hath a secret sence and can Not easily be understood now then How canst thou tell the Lordship here is meant Of those Lord-Bishops which my Church frequent Jayl The Texts must needs be meant of some that lord it In things Temporal or as thou dost word it Of Lords Spiritual But Peter doth Allow the first yea and to speak the tâ—oth Commands the Church all such as such t' obey Ergo 't is Spirit ' Lords he thrusts away Cathedral Thy major Proposition must be true Sith needs it must be meant of one of th'two Thy minor's likewise true Peter doth call The Church t' obey Lords Magistratical That then I must deny is thy Conclusion And truly why It makes for my confusion Jayl If th' Propositions both be verified Th' Conclusion can in no wise be denied Logicians say and therefore thou art one That from both Truth and Reason's so far gone As neither will thy Lordship cause to bend Till Christ the Lord his Judgments on thee send Cathedral Leave off proud Jayl thou art not yet my Judg But thou shouldst rather know thy self my Drudg Nor will I thus permit thee at this season To charge me with the want of Truth or Reason Turn then thy course unto my Discipline And do not thus my Lordship undermine Jayl Thy Discipline we must find in thy Court To which I see poor men compell'd refort To pay their Money And I also see Thy Officers as greedy of their Fee As any Lawyers And I likewise hear These Fees do make them reel with Wine Beer Cathedral Touching my Court thou shalt instructed be Ere long what they do there I 'le warrant thee And as for those who come unwillingly They 'r such as from my Laws have trod awry And I shall let such know their punishment Must peirce their purse till they be penitent Jayl Purse-penalties the Church of Christ knows none As she is such nor can it once be shown In all the Apostolical Directions In holy Writ there should be such exactions And doubtles whilst thou thus minds earthly things Paul under a most sharp reproof thee brings Cathedral Purse-penalties alone may not excuse Those that my Laws presumptuously abuse for Heresie deserves the most severe Chastisement others for to put in fear Even Confiscation 〈…〉 This crime 〈◊〉 the holy Scripture saith Jayle This iâ— a Monstrâ—â—â— Disciplinâ— foâ— you Who Gospel Laws pretend for what you doo ' Tiâ— true by 〈◊〉 Death might be inflicted On some 〈…〉 But if the Church in 〈◊〉 Should so proceed 't would now prove Persecution Cathederal Here thou 〈…〉 But I am clear from such 〈◊〉 For I no 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 I punish such 〈…〉 That I might them reduce from Heresie Or others keep in Christian purity Jayle That thou ' it a 〈…〉 Witness in part some 〈◊〉 whom thou haâ—t slain And partly some thou doâ—t at this day keep In Prison only cause they cannot sleep With thee in 〈◊〉 but the Lâ—â—d's Preceptâ— Have chosen as a Rule unto their steps Cathederal Those I 〈◊〉 and these I have slain Are such as would in Hereâ—ie remain Yet 't is not really I but ' tâ—â— the Powerâ— Which punish 〈…〉 these Maâ—â—â— of yours 'T is true 't is I adviâ—e them thus to do it And so shall still and care not who do know it Jayle So 't is my will is all the rule indeed By which thou doâ—â— thus â—idgedly proceed For from good ground it never can be shewed That thou or other ought to have imbâ—ewed Your hands in their blood who did well behave them In all things civil but to God
should leave them Cathederal So then it seems for things meerly religious Thou would have no man flain O most prodigious But then the Tâ—res will over-grow the Wheat And every one will publish his dâ—ceit Whereas by â—â—ans of my sharp punishment These evils I can easily prevent Jayle T is known that for more than three hundred years The Church had no defence from worldly Peers Yet Truth with purity did greatly prosper Errors they quash'd as falt as they did foster At least in such sort as may equallize What thou hast done by severe penalties Cathederal I said that 〈◊〉 would ' mongst the Wheat increase But this thou tacitly goest by in peace 'T is not the Heresie but Hereticks There is the spinch where this Conference sticks Now if to Kings it do not appertain These Tares to put away they must remain Jayle To them it appertains not as they 'r Kings For so men may be though plung'd deep in things Which makes them Hereticks Also the Tare Which Christ intendeth by him suffer'd are Here to â—eâ—ain until the Judgment-day Yet hath the Church them alwayes put away Cathedral Well this in short I see is thy opinion Kings ought protect all those in their Dominion In Life Estate and all things necessary If from their Civil Laws they do not vary As for the Church she only may do this Punish with Censures such â—s do amiss Jayle What is the utmost bounds of Kingly powers I 'le not dispute in this discourse of ours Which may perhaps be more than I well know Yet sure in Church-respects the Scriptures do Not give them pow'r as Kings to execute Church-Discipline and that 's what I dispute Cathedral If Kings did not assist by penalties My Church I see men would me soon dispise Nor could I live sith all my Maintenance I chiefly have by their good Countenance And hence it is men readily obey My Discipline in whatsoere I say Jayl Alas alas that thus it should be said And truly too O how 's Christs Gospel made A meer pretence whilst men their Bellies do Make their great God But this th' Apostles show Was once the way that false Apostles went And to the same way they are still intent Cathederal What wouldst thou have men sit i' th Church as Judges Of her misdoings only as her Drudges Take from my Church the profits thereto due And Officers thou wouldest find but few And thus the Church-affairs would soon be slighted Yea and perhaps the Church would be benighted Jayl Benighted why Is Silver your great Candle Or th'Oyl that feeds it One this point did handle In the Affirmative who appertains Unto thy Church when like to lose his gains Of Tithes But Paul yea and all such as he Us'd to perform their Office without Fee Cathedral Paul doth allow such as do minister In Church affairs thus to be sinister So as to live upon the Church So then We do what Paul allows ev'â— all my men Which at my Altar serve or in my Court. Thus have we Fees and Tithes in Gospel-sort Jaylâ— Such as are taught ought to communicate By gift to such as do officiate That it might be a fruit to the account Of such as give but no Text doth amount To prove that you by force should ought compel For what you pâ—â—ach from those mongst whom ye dwell Cathedral I see thou wouldest all our holy things Proceed as fruits which from the Spirit springs Whether our service to the Church or their Respects to us for all our pious care But still I tell thee nâ—ll thus my Revenue Nor Church nor Ministry would long continue Jayle No Argument more clear that thou art none Of Christ his Spouse that fair and lovely one Whose things are all perform'd by Charity Which works by love Now this disparity 'Twixt her and thee shews you cannot be one Till Grace abound and Selfishness be gone Cathederal I will not yeeld to this thy Argument Yet further talk about it I 'le prevent And hear if thou hast yet a fresh Objection Left unpropounded more for my detection Then prove thy self what thou denieft to me To wit Christs Church now let 's thy Answer see Jayle Object a very redious thing it were To say all that might be objected here But this I say the walking of thy Churches Shews that amongst you all uncleanness lurches So that as Paul saith it were a great shame The things you do in secret once to name Cathederal What then 't is known we have a discipline Provided to the end we may refine Our selves from these enormious voluptions And we have now removed some corruptions The rest in time may be removed all Intending this I am not criminal Jayle Thy Discipline small power hath but where Thou may stiget money or something appear That 's truly godly those are punished But even in thy Court is found inbred Great vileness and of late it is increased Abroad much more than when thy Court last ceased Cathederal Leave prying thus into my Churches walking I 'm tired out with thy unpleasant talking I'now expect to hear thine own defence But not in this enterchang'd conference But by a speech continu'd till thou do The heads of what thou holdest plainly show Jayle The heads of what I hold then I will shew As 't was presented to the Kings own view Signed with fourty hands of such as own The said Confession which hath now been shown In most parts of this miserable Nation Whose Church doth change 〈…〉 Powers have translation CHAP. VI. The Arg. The Jayl the Symbole of her Faith With Scripture tight doth sing And brings some of the Antients forth To witness every thing I. ARTICLE ONe God alone the Father I believe From whom all things their being did receive Eternal glor'ous and his Attributes To tell forth fully no tongue once reputes It self sufficient but with admiration Must give to him the highest Adoration The Witness of Antiquity There is but one God in Trinity three Persons in Unity one God We believe hold and faithfully maintain that God the Father begat his Wisdom by which all was made his only Son one with one co-eternal most equal and that the Spirit is both of the Father and of the Son consubstantial and coeternal with them both and that this is a trinity in respect of the persons and but one God in the inseparable Divinity c. II. ARTICLE In the beginning God created Man In a condition so compleat as then No misery was mixed therewithal From which he by transgression took a fall And hereupon he misery archieved On him and 's off spring yet it is believed By me that both this death and misery Extendeth not to all eternity The Witness of Antiquity By the death of the body we reade that some have died not for their own but for the sin of others But in the death of the soul none dieth for the sin of another For as
way that men must either mend As well in point of Life as their Profession Shunning with all their might sin transgression And in religious things be still devout Else from Heav'ns joys the Lord wil thrust them out He that wants Holiness sees not the Lord. Let him that readeth meditate that word The test of Antiquity Let not sinnets therefore and wicked men secure themselves by their continuance in the Church nor renounce Christ their Justice in committing any or all of the fleshly works spoken of Gal. 5. for he saith expresly they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God which do such deeds He that abideth in Christ c. hath taken the meat of Life but he that discordeth from Christ doth not eat the flesh of Christ although he do take every day the Sacrament of so great a thing XV. Article As once I said The Churches Pastors ought From ' mongst wel-graced Christians to be sought Chiefly such as have learned self-denial In which few worldly Priests will bide the tryal And such as by the Church are thus elected And eke ordained as God's Word directed Knowing 'to feed the Flock with meat in season And to bear rule with Godliness and Reason With love and care seeking such Sheep as stray Such I do own as Teachers of God's way But such as feed themselves with others fat And keep the Flock from such like food as that Which only can their soul relieve And who To seek for great Revenues rather go Than to enquire into the state of souls I say such Teachers do transgress the Rolls Of holy Writ And therefore I deny them And by this Testimony do decry them The test of Antiquity The Church was governed in times past by the common counsel and advice of the Presbyters And that Episcopum Presbyterium unum esse A Bishop and an Elder are all one Frederick sent this Message to Adrian the 4th We shut up our Cities against your Cardinals because we see that they prey upon the People They do not ratifie Peace but rake together Pence They do not repair the World but impair their Wealth Let none be ordained to the Ministry unless he first be examined of the Bishop and approved by the People The Pastors should seek the Salvation of mens souls not earthly commodity All Clergy men that are strong to labour let them learn some Handicraft as well as Letters XVI Article Such Ministers of Christ as have obtained Free gifts from God freely they are ordained To serve the Church and yet the Scripture wills Some fruit for him which that ground rightly tills Wherefore such as are taught as freely should Communicate to them who forth do hold The Word of Life upon their Work-account That to the Givers good it may amount But as for Tythes thâ—se forced consecrations I say they are no Gospel-Ordinations The test of Antiquity If thou despisest not a Beggar how much more oughtest thou to regard the Ox that treadeth out the corn in the floor And in Psal 146. He saith Thou scarce payest the thousand part yet I find no fault do so still for I so thirst after your well-doing that I refuse not your very crums O Lord Jesus thou hast multiplied the people and thou hast not encreased their joy-They have removed the Offices into shameful gain and the health of souls is not searched for they strive and contend most impudently daily by process for Bishopricks Archbishopricks c. there remaineth nothing but the Man of Sin to be revealed the Son of Perdition XVII Article The Scripture saith that Heresies must be And shews the way appointed us to free Our souls therefrom for such as do erect them The Church hath power wholly to reject them After the first or second Admonition Moreover by Apostolick Commission She hath a power also to withdraw From such Disciples as transgress the Law Of Christ in point of Worship or of life Peace to preserve and terminate her strife The test of Antiquity The Antient Canons make two kinds of Excommunications one greater the other less the greater not to be inflicted but upon the account of mortal or deadly sin Sins are not loosed nor retained at the pleasure of men but according to the will of God and prayers of the Church XVIII Article Touching the point of falling off from Grace I do believe men so may lose their place In Christ the Vine yea such as he doth say Is in him and lest they should fall away Exhorteth them to make their biding-place In him yea such may fall away from Grace As once had Charity in pure heart And conscience good yea that unfained part Of Faith yet wanting constant Watchfulness May turn aside so fouly to transgress As to be withered branches and in fire Burn and consume But yet such as defire With constancy and do the same indeed Add Grace to Grace so certainly shall speed As they shall never fall yea no deceit Of false Christs can them possibly defeat The test of Antiquity It is to be believed that some of the children of perdition receiving not the gift of Perseverence to the end do begin to live in Faith that worketh by Charity and for a time do live faithfully and justly and after do fall In time of temptation they fall away Some therefore revolt from Faith because Verity avoucheth it and by consequence from Salvation because our Saviour rebuketh it from whence we conclude from Charity also without which Salvation cannot be obtained XIX Article Such as are Poor in Christ his Congregation Ought to be cared for by the Donation Or bounty of the Church not by constraint Which care should hold proportion with the want And for the more sufficient management Of this affair the Church ought to appoint Some faithful men therefore to be deputed With laying on of hands Thus constituted They must now undertake this sacred Function The Church to keep in peace sweet conjunction Here be it noted since men did decline From this appointment holy and divine And did by force compel both rich and poor To pay a stinted portion to the Poor Which is but small allotted for their living It hath destroy'd the Ordinance of giving By free-Collection And now Charity With mens Estates holdeth no parity But their large sums are laid out to maintain Gay clothing Pearls all things which are vain VVhat will these men do when God riseth up To cause all men to tast his Judgment-Cup The test of Antiquity Sacred Orders we call Deacons and Presbyters for these two the Primitive Church is found only to have had That which men do by compulsion is not a sacrisice forasmuch as if it be not done voluntarily and with the heart it 's most execrable and accursed If thou hast riches labour by well-doing to store them up in