are and have beene censured for Apocrypha and so you are in this more private in your opinion than we Secondly we Protestants build upon no other rock but that which is common to all the faithfull from the beginning even God himselfe who is prima veritas the first truth and upon his word of promise made in Christ the promised seed and we are founded on the Prophets and Apostles who are the common foundation both to all the fathers in the old Testament and to all Christians in the time of the Gospell But you build upon a new rocke even the Pope of Rome whom yee call the universall Bishop sitting in Peters chaire a foundation which all the faithfull forefathers before the comming of Christ were ignorant of and never heard or dreamed Neither did the first Christians in the primitive Church for divers hundred of yeeres after Christ acknowledge any such name or title but even Gregorie the Great a Bishop of Rome who lived 560. yeeres after Christ condemned it as a note of Antichrist and his forerunner as by his epistles is manifest Thirdly though divers sects of Anabaptists Familists and Enthusiasts men of fanaticall spirits have growne up like tares in the field of the reformed Churches who follow their owne private fancies imaginations and divers inspirations of Satan which have no warrant from the Scriptures but are contrary to the written word yet they are not of us we renounce their society and expell them out of our Churches and say of them as the Apostle did 1 Ioh. 2. 19. They went out from us but they were not of us And as for the interpretations of some obscure Scriptures which Luther Calvin and other learned men have lately found out and doe finde out daily which were not knowne of old nor commonly received we embrace them not for novelty nor because they are singular nor for the authoritie of the expositors themselves but because we finde them to be agreeable to the originall text and to other plaine places of the same Scriptures and to containe the old and common doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and Prophets which hath beene beleeved and embraced in all ages of all true Christians But a great number of the articles of the Romish religion concerning Image-worship Canonization of Saints Purgatorie Pardons Indulgences Transubstantiation Massing sacrificing for the dead and such like they are builded vpon private visions apparitions dreames imaginations and fancies of Friers and upon singular inspirations of Monks and other doating persons slavishly devoted to your superstitions so that the Popish spirit is indeed the same with the private fanaticall spirit of Anabaptists and Enthusiasts as plaine reason and experience doe shew Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit taking little pleasure in the hearing of these things made great shew of a desire to breake off and to be gone onely he put on a bold and impudent face to deride the opinion of Protestants concerning the gift of the spirit by which particular Christians are enabled to know and beleeve the Scriptures and to be fully perswaded and assured of the truth and true meaning of them And as for you saith he to Master Walker it is well for you that you have such an infallible spirit which doth enable you to discerne the word of God and doth more assure you of the truth thereof than the publike testimonie of the Church But pardon us if we hold it doubtfull seeing we have no more but your owne word for it Mr. Walker Yea and I will have your word professing the same of your selfe also or else I will make you appeare to all here present to be void of all true Christianitie First you shall see that all your scoffs shall not make me ashamed to professe and to proclaime the grace and gift which God hath given me for the knowledge of his word and how I come to know it by the worke of his spirit Secondly I will urge you upon your conscience to answer me whether you have experience and feeling of the same grace in you That which I can with a good conscience testifie of my selfe I hold to be no singular gift but a grace common to all true Christians and it is this First I confesse that I was borne of Christian parents and my father and mother who tenderly loved me and were also of me dearely beloved did teach me the first principles of religion from my infancie and did tell me that the holy Scriptures contained in that Bible which was read and expounded in our Church were the true word of God I being not able to judge of it my selfe beleeved it so to be upon their word and authoritie for the reverent respect and esteeme which I had of them Afterwards they caused me to frequent the Church and to heare that word read and expounded by learned Preachers and told me that I ought to beleeve what I heard out of it preached in the Church and so I did for I beleeved the Preachers publishing that word in so much that partly by their exhortations and partly out of a care which I had of my soules health and in a desire of Gods favour and blessings which were thereunto promised I did even from my youth give my minde to reade and learne the Scriptures Howsoever I must confesse that at the first and in my childish yeeres I did finde but little savour sweetnesse in the most profitable parts of the Scriptures such as Davids Psalmes Salomons Proverbs the bookes of the Prophets the Epistles of the Apostles and such like yea though I beleeved that they were Gods word yet by reason of my naturall corruption I did take more pleasure and delight in Poeticall fables and feigned histories which did feed my corruption and were a kinde of fuell to my sinfull lusts and vanities Neverthelesse whether it was mine owne conscience urging me or the spirit of God which moved me I cannot certainly tell but sure I am that still I did upon the testimonie and authoritie of my Parents and Teachers reverence the Scriptures as Gods word and force my selfe to reade them contrary to my rebellious nature and at length when I came to more ripe yeeres I found that the word which was most opposite and distastfull to my sinfuâ—l corruption did worke upon me most strongly and effectually which is an infallible token of Gods hand in it and a sure signe of the divine power and supernaturall excellencie thereof I felt the promises of the Gospell and the words of the Prophets and Apostles which before had little relish begin by Gods grace to be most sweet and comfortable in all crosses and afflictions and to be most profitable by strengthning me with the spirit of prayer and faith against temptations by mortifying my fleshly corruptions and by reforming my life so that I began to rejoyce in the Scriptures more than in any earthly treasures and did devote my selfe to the studie of them and now partly upon the
censured and reproved by the hearers Wherefore to avoid all further urging in this point and for the escaping of more reproofe and censure he flies backe to the generall question concerning the word of God and taking a paper wrote downe his assent That the word of God comprehends in it 1. The Scriptures 2. Whatsoever by good consequence is gathered from the holy Scriptures And withall he wrote downe this question viz. who must be the Iudge when the Scriptures are doubtfull and when the question is of the goodnesse of the consequence And withall he professed that for his part he held the Church to be the Iudge and that when the Church hath iudged no private man must oppose Mr. Walker Mr. Walker on the other side professed that for the goodnesse of the consequence Logicians must judge by reason and the rules of Logicke And for the sense and meaning of the doubtfull places the Scripture is the best expositor of it selfe and the plaine places of it doe give light to the places which are obscure and doe best expound them And therefore every private person and the whole Church it selfe in matters doubtfull must flie to the Scriptures themselves as the last Iudge of controversies in matters of faith and salvation And here he asked Master Fisher if he durst in this controversie stand to the judgement of the ancient Fathers such as S. Augustine Chrysostome and others of that ranke Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit answered that he knew the Fathers were on his side and did altogether flie to the iudgement of the Church in matters of faith when any controversie did arise Mr. Walker That said Master Walker is most untrue the cōtrary shall be shewed presently out of their owne writings set forth and printed by Papists then calling for two volumes the one of S. Chrysostome upon Matthew the other S. Austens third Tome both printed and set forth by Papists as the inscription did shew and Fisher could not denie First he turnes to the Homilie of Chrysostome upon these words of the Gospel Math. 24. When you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place then let him that is in Iudea flie to the mountaines and shewes the Authors exposition which was to this effect That when Antichrist rules and beares sway in the holy place the Church then all professors of Christian religion who are in the true Iudaea that is Christianitie must flie only to the Scriptures for they are the mountaines upon which the Church is founded according to that saying of David Her foundations are upon the holy mountains Psal. 87. 1. And in those daies when Antichrist sits and succeeds in the Sea of holy Bishops and over-rules all workes miracles and makes great shew of godlinesse in hypocrisie then the Church cannot be knowne by succession of Pastors nor by the miracles and holy life of teachers as in former ages but only by the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. The answer which the Iesuit gave to this testimonie was that this could not be proved to be the worke of Chrysostome Mr. Walker More shame said Master Walker it is to your Doctors and Printers who cite places out of this booke under the name of Chrysostome and doe print and set it forth in his name but suppose it be not the worke of Chrysostome yet you cannot denie it to be the worke of an ancient writer of great antiquitie and therefore it makes much against you being approved in the Church so many ages Neither shall you so escape For loe here in the third booke of S. Augustine De doctrinâ Christianâ which was never questioned but is generally received and acknowledged by all it is most plainly taught by the learned Father That the best way of expounding the Scriptures is in words which have many significations to observe the scope and circumstances of the place and thereby to expound them and to expound obscure places by comparing them with other plaine places of the Scriptures which speake of the same matter and subject Then hee shewed the words to Fisher and read them in Latine to him who could not deny them but heard them read with much impatiencie as his gestures shewed but when he began to expound them in English to the people there present the Iesuit could not containe himselfe but said Away this is nothing to the purpose we will examine these things some other time And when words would not prevaile hee reacheth with his hands to the booke and did strive to shut it that the words might not bee read notwithstanding Master Walker held it by strong hand and read the words which when the people present did heare and see they confessed that Fisher was openly convinced some of them told him that his owne conscience did witnesse against him and all condemned his impudencie joined with most intolerable and desperate obstinacie The Iesuit thus condemned on all sides and not able to outface the matter any longer did make shew as if he stood vpon coales and would gladly be gone and his Disciple who brought him thither being ready to helpe him at a dead lift when hee saw him so confounded calls vpon him to remember the place which they were to goe unto whereupon they made haste to depart but by much importunitie were staied and Master Walker still urging him to propound and prosecute one argument upon any question of controversie before they parted he answered that now there was no time but promised to dispute at some other time At length out of an earnest desire to draw one argument from the Iesuit he offered to him this advantage That if for the iustifying of any point or article of the Romish religion hee would make a perfect syllogisme in moode and figure and presently upon the deniall of any of the premises second it with a prosyllogisme not failing in forme to prove and conclude the proposition denied the point or article so farre proved should for this one time bee yeelded to him and he should haue libertie to make his best advantage of it for the justifying of any other point of Poperie which hee would presently dispute upon But all this could not prevaile to wring one syllogisme from him which made the hearers thinke that hee had no art nor skill to make an argument And that they did not thinke amisse nor erre in their opinion appeared by that which followed for although hee durst not undertake during the time of the conference to make one syllogisme or to propound an argument in forme yet at the breaking up when hee was ready to depart he tooke his paper and wrote downe and gave to Master Walker desiring him to answer at leasure this argument which followeth and which is yet to be shewed under his owne hand though perhaps to men of judgement it may seeme incredible that any Priest or Iesuit of his name and note should be so absurd as to propound for a syllogisme such a confused speech without forme
moode or figure It runnes word for word thus That Church which beginning with Christ and his Apostles hath visibly professed in all ages that faith which Christ and his Apostles taught without change in any point necessarie to salvation is that Church whose judgement is to bee followed and no private man must oppose his judgement against it There must bee one such Church in all ages But no such Protestants can be shewed This syllogisme no doubt will appeare as it is in forme very absurd to all the judicious who shall heare of it or reade it And yet the author thereof if we consider either the time when or the manner how he propounded it was therein farre more absurd and ridiculous For hee delivered it for an argument of such force and strength that it was not to be answered but at leasure and upon much studie and meditation Yea hee wrote it downe after that every point and tittle therein which requires any answer had beene by the present adversarie Master Walker there at that time abundantly answered to the full satisfaction of the hearers as they confessed For after Master Walker had fairely offered and earnestly urged that all controversies of religion which were betweene them might be tried first by the originall Scriptures secondly by the sincere writings of the ancient Fathers thirdly by disputation in strict syllogismes and all these were refused and rejected by the Iesuit as is before related They who were present wondering at him and some of them asking him whether he had any ground of his faith and religion besides his owne sense and will Mr. Fisher. He answered that he would bee judged by the Church For said hee when the Church hath judged no private man must oppose his judgement And this I made a Protestant Preacher confesse heretofore in a conference and that under his owne hand Mr. Walker Master Walker answered that the Church of God never judgeth as it is a true Church but by the Word of God in the holy Scriptures and as it is said of a just Iudge in a Common-wealth that hee is Lex loquens so it is said of every true and faithfull Church that it is Scriptura loquens The speaking Scripture Now against this judgement of the Church no private man must oppose his judgement that is his owne private opinion for all singular opinions of private men are vaine errors if they were true they could not bee singular seeing all truths necessarie to salvation taught in the Scriptures are common to all the faithfull Therefore the Protestant Preacher which you named did grant nothing but the truth from which you can picke no advantage to helpe you for you when you appeale to the judgement of the Church doe in many things differ from this truth First by the Church you understand no other Church but the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon your owne mother and your appealing to her to be the judge of your Religion is as if a Bastard should seeke to be judged by the whore his mother whether hee be lawfully begotten which he knowes shee will affirme and judge him to bee for her owne credit Secondly you rest on her judgement in the maine principles of Religion which are already most plainly and infallibly determined in the holy Scriptures and in which no Christian truly sanctified and regenerate being growne up to yeeres of discretion and well read in the Scriptures needeth the judgement of any other judge besides the Spirit of God enlightening his heart Thirdly when you speake of the judgement of the Church you understand such a judging power and authoritie as doth by determining points of faith and manners make them true and lawfull whereas the true Church of God hath no power to coine new Scriptures or to make articles of faith but onely the gift of revealing propounding and expounding of the word of God and the articles of Religion which Christ hath commended to the faithfull Fourthly you require in the true Church and attribute to your Church of Rome such properties as cannot bee found in any particular Church on earth viz. that it hath continued in the same place state and condition visibly and sensibly professing from the daies of Christ and his Apostles the same faith in all points necessarie to salvation whereas by consent of all stories and by manifest experience it is plaine that doctrines which by the Apostles were taught to the old Romane Christians as justification by faith without workes and by imputation of Christs righteousnesse Rom. 3. 4. 5. are now condemned by the present Romish Church And others which the Apostle did call Doctrines of Devils as forbidding to marrie and abstinence from meats c. 1 Tim. 4. 3. it urgeth as necessarie to bee beleeved and obeyed for salvation by some persons Mr. Fisher. I doe hold that the Church is the chiefe judge of all controversies in the matters of Religion and that all private persons must submit to it and not seeke to the Scriptures First because the Scriptures are translated out of the originall tongues before that private men can reade or understand them and the translations are not to be beleeved nor received but by the authoritie and approbation of the Church Secondly the Church gives such authoritie to the Scriptures that without it we are not bound to beleeve them nor receive them for Gods word according unto that excellent profession of Saint Augustine Non crederem Evangelio nisi me Ecclesiae moveret authoritas I would not beleeve the Gospell unlesse I were thereunto moved by the authoritie of the Church Mr. Walker And I answer that all this which you say makes no more for the Church of Rome than for any other particular Church for all other particular Churches have as much authoritie in this kinde yea more because shee is more impure and corrupt than any of them and hath least abilitie or sinceritie to judge of the truth And undoubtedly Saint Austen meant not the Church of Rome of which hee was no member but rather the Church of Millaine in which he was converted Secondly I say that Saint Austen in the place by you cited speakes by way of supposition and not by way of asseveration as the learned have well observed from the scope and circumstances of the place Thirdly it is true that over-weake Christians who are babes in Christ the Church in which they live and are baptized hath such authoritie as you speake of namely to translate the Scriptures and to commend them for the word of God and for truth and they are bound to give credit to it therein and not to oppose their owne fancies and conceits But when Christians are growne up in grace and knowledge and have felt by their owne experience the effects and worke of the Spirit in their soules wrought by reading and hearing of the holy Scriptures and when not onely by the inward testimonie of the Spirit testifying that they are the truth
testimonie of Gods spirit witnessing inwardly with my spirit and partly upon the sense and experience which I have of the power of them in overcomming my naturall corruptions as it were against my will and partly upon that particular sight and knowledge which I have of the glory and divine Majestie shining in them I am so confident and assured that they are Gods most holy and infallible word that my conscience tels me I had rather forgoe all the world and my dearest bloud and bodily life than denie the truth of them Yea if the Church and Teachers which perswaded me first to receive them for Gods word should fall away by apostasie forsweare and denie them or any part of them or if any Angell from heaven should teach the contrary I would count them accursed as the Apostle enjoines me Gal. 1. 8. And now I can say to the Church and my Teachers as the Samaritans did to the woman who brought them to Christ Loe I have heretofore beleeved the Scriptures to be Gods word upon your testimonie and authoritie but now I see with mine owne eyes I have the inward testimonie of Gods spirit and feele by powerfull effects and by experience in my selfe that these Scriptures are Gods holy word and the power of God to salvation This I freely confesse is my knowledge and perswasion of Gods word which by these degrees I have attained unto And I daily have experience and evident signes of the same grace in all other Christians with whom I doe converse familiarly Now therefore in the second place I charge you before God and upon your conscience to answer directly and plainly before this people here present whether you have experience of the same grace in you and whether you have by these degrees oâ— any of them attained to this full assurance of knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. What is that to you whether I have or have not Or what if I hold it needlesse to assume so much unto my selfe Mr. Walker It is very necessarie that you should doe either the one or the other And whether you confesse or denie you are taken and ensnared If you say that you have experience of this grace in you and of this gift and testimonie of the spirit then you are plainly convinced by your owne mouth of wilfull blasphemy against the Holy Ghost in that you have denied contradicted derided and scoffed at that worke of his in the Saints of God of which worke you have experience in your owne soule But if you confesse that you never felt this order and worke of grace in you and that your faith is nothing but an implicit beleeving of the Scriptures upon the Churches testimonie and authoritie without any sense or experience of the power and vertue thereof in your soule and that you blindly and desperatly cast your selfe on the Church without any particular discerning of the truth of the Scriptures or any inward testimonie of the spirit then it is certaine to say the best that you are yet a babe in Christianitie and Christ Iesus is not yet formed in you Yea I feare that you are worse than so for if after so many yeeres studie of Divinitie and so long continuance in the publike calling of a Priest and teacher of others you be found not onely destitute and void of this necessarie grace of a Christian but also an opposer and gainesayer of it and a scorner of such as professe it we cannot but deeme you a very Atheist and sonne of Belial in whom is verified that which S. Paul foretold of the slaves of Antichrist 2 Thess. 2. 12. viz. That God should send them strong delusions that they should beleeve lies and be damned not beleeving the truth but having pleasure in unrighteousnesse Also that which is testified by S. Iude of such reprobates who are of old ordained to condemnation viz. That they speake evill of those things which they know not and whatsoever things they know naturally as beasts which are without reason in those things they corrupt themselves and that they are corrupt trees and without fruit twise dead and plucked up by the roots and raging waves of the sea foaming out their owne shame and wandring starres to whom is reserved the blacknesse of darknesse for ever Mr. Fisher You are very sharpe and uncharitable in your judgement but it is no matter what you say neither will I argue more with you at this present for it is time for us to depart Mr. Walker I doe not judge you but by your owne mouth and by the infallible word of God and from henceforth I leave you to the judgement of God and to the censure of all here present who have heard you at this time onely thus much I must tell you that I doe manifestly discerne by your cariage speeches and behaviour your evill conscience and that you doe dolo malo wilfully oppose the truth and factiously cleave to the Romish religion For all here present have seene that you refuse and are afraid to be tried either by Scriptures or Fathers or disputation and reason or by the spirit of God which you would never doe so openly to your shame if your conscience did not tell you that they are all against you in the speciall articles of your religion wherein you dissent from us To this divers of them who were present gave their assent and professed that they were exceedingly deceived in their opinion of Fisher wondering that one so vaine and ridiculous as he shewed himselfe should dare to undertake the defence of his religion face to face against any learned man before any understanding hearers or that any should be either so foolish and blinde as to be seduced by him or so impudent and void of iudgement as to give him the name and report of a learned man or to number him among subtle disputants And one among the rest calling unto the Iesuit asked him very earnestly whether he were indeed that Fisher the Iesuit who disputed with Doctor White before the King which when he acknowledged Surely said the man I should never have beleeved it if any other had told me so for it could never have sunke into my minde that any of your name and report should be so absurd and ridiculous as you have here shewed your selfe For I see that neither the Originall Scriptures nor your owne translation of them nor the Fathers nor disputation and argument are of any account with you Doe you thinke that any man will be so foolish as to beleeve you who have no ground but your owne word and will But now I am glad that you have given me iust occasion as to abhorre your religion more than ever before and to esteeme you a vaine wrangler of no judgement so also to stop the mouth of some of my kinred who are of your religion and great admirers of your person and praisers of your learning by reporting and testifying unto them concerning
all are as much afraid of these questions as a dog of the whip I could never yet meet with one of you which durst vndertake to maintaine the negative part For you are as wise as Serpents in your generation you know by wofull experience what hard and base silly shifts Bellarmine Suarez and others of your most learned Iesuits have beene driven to seeke while they labour in writing to answer vs in these questions and how miserably they are confounded contradicting one another and every one himselfe in many things And this is the cause why you cannot endure to deale with vs in these killing points of controversie wherein you are sure to be overthrowne But if these please you not doe you name any other questions and you shall finde mee ready and willing to dispute with you without further delay Mr. Fisher. I am content But that we may have some ground to build on First I will propound some questions to you in writing to which I require your answer in writing also that there may bee no mistaking or misreporting hereafter of that which passeth between vs. Mr. Walker If you will set downe any question in writing and write downe also your arguments I will also write my answers to them but all other kinde of questioning I refuse as a meanes tending to prolong the time and keepe us off from strict disputation I remember that when I was with you foure yeeres agoe you did trifle away a whole afternoone by ambiguous questions and could not be drawne at all to disputation Mr. Fisher. Wee cannot dispute without some ground laid downe and agreed upon I will therefore first here propound in writing this question then he wrote downe as followeth God the Father sent his Sonne our Saviour to teach all points of faith necessarie to salvation bidding his Apostles heare him Mr. Walker This is no point of controversie betweene you and us but if you make it questionable I answer affirmatively granting the proposition to bee true doe you prove the contrarie if you can * Then the Iesuit taking the paper wrote a second proposition viz. Mr. Fisher. Our Lord said to his Apostles As my Father sent mee so send I you hee that heareth you heareth mee goe teach all Nations baptizing them c. and teaching them to observe all things which I have commanded you behold I am with you all daies untill the end of the world Mr. Walker To this Master Walker answered when hee read it That he desired an argument not a new proposition and urged him either to dispute upon the former question or else to propound some point of controversie for hee would not bee deluded nor spend any more time in trifling and writing downe propositions not controverted Mr. Fisher. If this proposition be not controverted doe you grant it vnder your hand and I will upon your owns confession ground a controversie and an argument which shall hold you fast Mr. Walker Before you can make an argument you must agree with mee upon some point of controversie let us therefore know what I shall defend and what point you will dispute against Mr. Fisher. I come instantly to the point if you will grant the last proposition to bee true under your hand this being done he takes the paper and writes the third proposition This commission of our Sauiour to his Apostles was not onely to their persons and for their lives but to those which should by them bee sent and should lawfully succeed them in all ages yeeres moneths and daies untill the end of the world Mr. Walker Master Walker seeing this refused to answer to any more questions or propositions in word or writing except it were a proposition disputable and when the Iesuit said that by degrees hee meant thus to bring him on to a maine point of controversie upon which hee would dispute Indeed saith hee you have so promised and deceived mee now three times I will no longer bee held in suspence and if you can no way come to disputation but by such propositions I will trie whether I can by the same meanes draw you to some head of controversie Then taking a paper he wrote downe this proposition They who teach hold and maintaine doctrines contrarie and repugnant to the Scriptures even the word of God taught by Christ and his Prophets and Apostles in the old and new Testament are not the true successors of Christ and his Apostles Mr. Fisher. This assertion the Iesuit granted but would not write downe any thing and still urged Master Walker to grant his third proposition Mr. Walker Stay saith Master Walker I must first have you to answer a second proposition before I answer your third then hee wrote downe a second to this effect The Church Teachers and Pastors who doe teach no other doctrine as necessarie to salvation but that and onely that which is taught in the Scriptures by Christ and his Apostles and Prophets are undoubtedly the true Church of Christ and the true successors of Christ and his Apostles Mr. Fisher. To this the Iesuit seemed unwilling to answer till at length being much urged hee for very shame yeelded to grant the proposition by saying I doe not denie it Mr. Walker Whereupon Master Walker spake thus Now Master Fisher you have granted me two maine grounds upon which I will dispute and upon the first I will proue That the Church of Rome and her Pope and Priests are not the true Church nor true successors of Christ and his Apostles And upon the other I will prove That the Church of England and her Protestant Pastors are the true Church and successors of Christ and his Apostles Mr. Fisher. But stay saith Fisher let me first have your answer to my third proposition and then wee will come to disputation immediatly Mr. Walker If I doe answer you will not dispute because there is no matter of controversie in your proposition Neverthelesse that you may have no excuse nor colour of delay I grant your assertion thus vnderstood viz. That to all those who are sent by the Apostles and in calling and doctrine lawfully succeed them in all ages yeeres and daies untill the end of the world Christ gave commission to teach people of every Nation and to baptize them and promised to bee with them But if you meane by the last clause cunningly to imply that there are in all ages yeeres moneths and daies a continued succession of Bishops and Pastors in one and the same visible Chaire and Sea sent by the Apostles and lawfully succeeding them as in place so in all points of doctrine I denie your proposition and if you please let this be the question betweene us and let it be your part to prove it against me Mr. Fisher. This answer Master Fisher desired him to write downe which hee promised upon condition Fisher would first write downe his answers to the two propositions by him propounded And after much adoe the Iesuit takes
but also by the inward heavenly comforts and spirituall strength which they thereby and from thence receive doe sensibly perceive that Gods hand is with them and he doth in them speake to their consciences then they need no more the judgement of the Church nor of any externall judge to assure them that the Scriptures are Gods true infallible word for though all professors in the world or an Angell from heaven should preach and affirme the contrarie they will not assent unto them but rather count them as Anathema and accursed as the Apostle commands Gal. 1. 8. Mr. Fisher. They who are true Catholikes and rest upon the judgement of the Church have as much assurance and certaintie of the truth of the Scriptures as is needfull from the testimonie of the Church for they build vpon the rocke against which the gates of hell cannot prevaile But you teach men to build their faith on their owne private spirit and you are lead every one of you by his owne conceit which is the cause of so many sects and schismes and severall opinions among you every one assuming to himselfe presumptuously such an infallibilitie of judgement in matters of faith as doth not belong to any private man neither can bee attained unto by the common and vulgar sort of Christians Mr. Walker You shew your selfe by this speech of yours to be not onely a meere carnall man such a one as hath never felt the lively worke of Gods spirit in his heart nor tasted of the heavenly gift but also a brutish man corrupting that reason and darkning that light which by nature is in you which I will evidently shew divers waies First you preferre the externall testimonie of the Church before the internal testimonie of Gods spirit and make it a more sure rocke to build on than the Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth Secondly you seeme to exempt and exclude the common sort of Christians and all private men from the communion of the Holy Ghost and from that gift and grace and inward worke of the spirit by which they are illuminated to see and perswaded to beleeve the truth of Gods word every one particularly in his owne soule and with his owne heart contrary to the Scriptures which teach that the spirit of Jehovah resting first and originally on Christ the head Isa. 11. 2. is from him inspired and infused into all and every faithfull member of his body the Church Rom. 8. 9. in such sort that they are said by that one spirit to be baptized into one bodie whether they be Iewes or Gentiles 1 Cor. 12. 13. and their bodies are said to be temples of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in them 1 Cor. 3. 16. and 6. 19. and by this spirit they are said to have the gift of knowledge and faith 1 Cor. 12. and to be led into all truth Ioh. 16. Thirdly you call the holy spirit of Christ which we challenge in Christ by a common right as common to all the elect and which doth worke the same faith and knowledge in every particular Christian by the name of a private spirit wherein you shew most palpable ignorance overspreading your carnall eyes and possessing your carnall heart For that spirit which flowes from that one common fountaine of all goodnesse even God the Father of all and is sent forth in and through the name of that one common Mediatour and Saviour of the world his Sonne Iesus Christ which is also the same in Christ the head and in the whole universall bodie of the elect and faithfull and doth worke in all and every one particularly the same common knowledge of the same truth and the same common faith in the same promised seed And all this by no private motions or inspirations separated from the word of God but onely by that common meanes even the word of Christ spoken by his mouth and written by his Prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament this spirit can in no case be called a private spirit For it is the propertie of the Holy Ghost the true Comforter to come from the Father in the Sonnes name and to teach the truth and worke faith by the common rule and meanes of the Scriptures and not to speake of himselfe new things which Christ had not spoken before but onely to speake what he hath heard and so to receive of Christs and to give to us and to lead us into all truth by calling to our mindes the word spoken by Christ and recorded in the Scriptures and by writing it in our hearts as our Saviour plainly testifieth Ioh. 16. 13 14. This spirit which is discerned by these properties we challenge to our selves by the common right of the elect in Christ and he it is who doth testifie to our spirits that the holy Scriptures are the true infallible word and doth transforme our soules into the obedience of them and doth worke in us that same faith by which all the Saints have beene justified and saved from the beginning of the world But now as I have shewed you which is the true spirit of God common to all the elect and faithfull and that by his properties observed from the words of Christ our Saviour and also that the spirit of Protestants is that spirit So I demand of you whether you Papists have any such spirit working in you that faith and knowledge of the Scriptures which you build on the testimonie and authoritie of the Church If you say that you have no such spirit but are led every one by his owne sense then are you carnall and sensuall men not spirituall by your owne confâ—ssion If you say that you have the spirit moving every one of you particularly to rest on the judgement of the Church of Rome and causing you to beleeve that the Pope cannot erre and that the Scriptures which he doth commend unto you are therefore Gods word then I would know of you why that spirit so resting and working in every particular Papist should not be esteemed a private spirit as well as that which works in every Protestant Mr. Fisher. Your spirit is a private spirit because he leads every one of you into severall opinions and private interpretations of Scripture which have never beene received in the Church nor commonly acknowledged of the godly Fathers and Doctors Mr. Walker If you have no more to say for your selfe than this I shall easily convince you by your owne mouth and prove from your owne words that the spirit of Papists not the spirit of Protestants is indeed a private spirit For first our spirit perswades us to receive for Gods infallible word no other Scriptures but those which by the common consent of all the ancient Fathers and of all sorts of Christians even of you Papists your selves are held for Canonicall but you Romanists receive divers Scriptures for Canonicali which by S. Hierome and other Ancients and by all the reformed Churches
you what I have seene with mine eyes and heard with mine eares this day But the thing which did most astonish the beholders was the desperate behaviour of the Popish Novice the procurer of this meeting who did in the time of this conference most lively expresse the slavish nature of a seduced Romane Catholike to whom God hath sent strong delusion to cleave to lies and to reject the truth For he did most manifestly shew as the standers by well observed that he came with a full purpose and resolution and an heart and forehead hardned to scoffe deride and gainesay whatsoever was said against the minde of his ghostly father Fisher the Iesuit whether good or bad and to extoll and admire with most intemperate noise and clamour whatsoever Fisher did averre without regard of right or wrong truth or falshood In so much that one time when Master Walker had spoken something which seemed to give content to the hearers and they openly applauded and the Novice as his manner was scoffing at the speech said to his younger brother and others neere unto him that he never heard a more absurd and foolish reason and that any childe might answer it Master Walker over-hearing urged him to tell wherein the absurditie and foolishnesse of his reason did consist and what it was But he was not able to repeat one word so that all the hearers laughed and condemned him for an headstrong foole in speaking evill of that which he neither knew nor cared to understand But all this could not bridle his tongue nor make his impudent face ashamed For a little after when Master Fisher the Iesuit was speaking something which Master Walker seemed to sleight and to smile at the popish Novice spake out in a passion more loud than ordinary to his brothers and others about him Loe there is an argument to the purpose which I warrant you can never be answered by the best of your Ministers let him answer it if he can Which Master Walker noting turned once more to the Novice and desired him to repeat that strong argument or if he could not doe that to tell the meaning or the matter of it but hee was not able to repeat a word nor to tell what was the matter in hand which made the beholders astonished at his desperate impudencie and wilfull blindnesse in so much that some sharply rebuked him to his face others blamed Fisher for nuzling him up and suffering him to goe on in such notorious impudencie and wilfull blindnesse and divers did not sticke to say that they never saw nor heard of such a dangerous example and that undoubtedly they perceived this Novice to be so devillishly addicted and devoted to his Master Fisher that if Fisher would blaspheme the name of Iesus Christ this Novice would iustifie his blasphemie and maintaine it unto death And thus the conference ended But at the breaking up the Iesuit gave in writing to be answered at leysure the confused speech before mentioned And Master Walker wrote downe an argument which he gave to him to be considered and directly answered in writing upon mature deliberation The summe of the Argument was this That Church which hath the chiefe properties of the great whore of Babylon mentioned Revel 17. is undoubtedly that great whore and the Church of Antichrist The present Church of Rome now subject to the Pope hath those properties ergo it is the great whore The assumption confirmed These following are the chiefe properties of the great whore First shee must bee such a Church as being once most famous and renowned over all the faithfull Spouse of Christ hath by degrees fallen away into spirituall whordome that is Idolatrie and Image-worship for the Scriptures doe never stile by the name of whore any Citie or Church but such as thus fall away Secondly shee must still hold her visible succession of Bishops in the same place and Sea and professe her selfe the chiefe spouse of Christ while she commits Idolatrie in the Churches of Christ and mingles it with his outward and verball worship and while hee doth by persecution sacrifice to her God Molech such children as she by meanes of the Scriptures and some parts of his worship which shee still after a sort retaineth hath begotten and borne to Christ. Thirdly shee must bee the mother of whoredomes by assuming to her selfe the power to canonize for Saints whom she pleaseth and to authorize the worship of them and their Images and by obtruding upon the Churches of other nations Cities and Countries her formes of idolatrous worship Now there is no Church or Citie in the world which hath or can have these properties but onely the present Church and Sea of Rome 1. For she was for faith renowned in all the world as Saint Paul Rom. 1. and many of the ancient Fathers in their writings doe shew 2. And she now continuing her visible succession of Bishops ever since the Apostles in the same place and Sea is become a worshipper of Images which is Idolatrie as all the world may see and observe 3. And though shee doth challenge to her selfe the authoritie to canonize Saints and to authorize all Image-worship going a whoring from Christ her first love after his pretended Vicar the Pope and his superstitions and obtruding upon all nations her abominations yet she still glories in the name of the chiefe spouse of Christ and under shew and colour of zeale and love to him doth persecute and murder such godly men as being converted to Christ by those meanes of Christianitie which shee still retaineth doe reprove and rebuke her for Idolatrie superstition and other vices as Ierusalem did when shee was a great spirituall whore and adultresse Ezech. 16. Therefore the present Church of Rome now subject to the Pope hath the chiefe properties of the great whore of Babylon and by consequence is that great Babylonish whore and the Church of Antichrist This argument being to this effect delivered in writing to the Iesuit hee departed and hath not yet returned an answer Onely hee sent within a few daies after to Master Walker by his disciple above mentioned certaine propositions which hee commonly carries about him as the chiefe weapons of his warfare and by which he doth provoke and challenge all Protestant Divines with whom hee doth meet in any place FINIS