either 2. They are under a judiciall blindness God has given them reason and understanding eyes that they might see hearts that they might understand but they wilfully shut their eyes against that light and then by the just judgment of Almighty God this light is taken from them they are given up to blindness of mind and hardness of heart as were the antient heathens Rom 1. 3. Their lives are utterly contrary to the holy nature of God to his sacred word there is an antipathy an emnity betwixt their Debaucheries their filthiness their profaneness and his most holy laws Rom. 8.7 every line of it flyes in their faces threatening them with hel and damnation whereupon they cavil with they quarrell against it they wish there were neither God to punish nor scripture to threaten Destruction against them and so by insensible degrees they are brought to think and say in their heart there is no God as the foole did Psal. 14. so true is that of the poet quod nimis miseri volunt hoc facile crâ—dunt the thoughâ—â— and imaginations of wretched men are governed by their desires they hate the light because their deeds are evil though their understandings are convinced by unansweareable arguments and reasons of the truth of these great principles yet they will not believe them such is the perverseness of their will that it either blinds their mind or else draws them against self Conviction to believe a Lye and to hold the conclusion against the most evident proofes and premises Dub. I am perswaded that you have given very good reasons why so many are Atheists and infidels and that the cheifest of them are irreligious and prophane livers that practical Atheisme is the greatest cause of that which iâ— dogmaticall or Atheism in opinion 'T was the foole that said in his heart there waâ— no God first he was a foole i. e. a sinner and very wicked as he is discribed in that psalm and thence he proceeded Atheist a foole in practise and then a fool in judgment for t is most certain that a corrupt and wicked life is the true parent of ungodly and vile opinions froâ— which by Gods blessing upon your good endeavoures I am now delivered and am fully perswaded that God is and that he is a rewarder of all those that diligently seeke him that the holy scripture is undoubtedly the word of God and consequently that the Christian Religion is the onely true religion but observing that of those who profess this Religion there are severall parties and t is not unknown to you that heretofore I have adhaered to the Church of Rome I would willingly learn from you which party they of Rome or we of England be most Orthodox and Catholick Firm Your demand is rationall I shall most willingly Gratifie you in itâ— oâ—ely you must give me leave to propose these Two questions to you and let me receive your answâ—r unto them at our next meeting 1. What Inducements you had to turne to the Church of Rome 2. What Reasons you had to leave it Dub. You must give me leave also to recollect my selfe that I may be â—he better able to give in my answer to your Quaeries DIALOGVE III Against POPERY Firm. I Hope you have well considered of the questions which I lately proposed unto you Dub. To the first I returne this answer My reasons that induced me to adhere to the Church of Rome were these 1. The Antiquity of that Church which has continued ever since the Apostles time when by the testimony of St. Paul her faith was spoken of throughout the world Rom. 1.8 2. The universality of it no Church has spread it self so farr and nere upon the face of the earth as that of Rome 3. Her consent in Doctrine with the primitive Church 4. The unity of it under one infallible head which cannot err in poynt of faith or manners 5 The sanctity of it's Doctrine that 't is free from errour in matters of â—aith free from all immorality and improbity in point of manners 6. The sanctity of life in the authors and first-fathers of the Roman Religion these were the chief motives that caused me to adhere to the Church of Rome Firm. Indeed these are six of those 15 notes which Bellaâ—mine Lib. 4. de not Eccle. and others of his perswasion appropriate to that Church but had you not some other inducements As first a vitious life and the cheap and easy pardon of your Sins upon confession of them to a priest his absolution and injunction of a pitifull pennance 2dly were you not under some discontent for your present low Condition or 3dly were you not ambitious of preferment deeming popery to be a ready way to it or 4thly were you not tickled with the Cunning extolling of your excellent parts by some subtile Jesuite lamenting your sad Condition that a person oâ— so rare endowments should be so miserably mistaken in the great concern of your Soule perswading you that out of the Church there is no hope of salvation and that you being no member of the Church of Rome were past all peradventure out of the Church and unlesse you returned to that Church there could be no hope of your salvation or lastly before you set up for the Church of Rome were you serious and conscientiouâ— in any Religion for 't is very easy for one that is of no Religion that makes no consciencâ— of his waies being allured with the joyeâ— of heaven and affrighted with the terrours of Hell to pitch upon any Religion that confidently promises those and as confidently a freedome from these and we know that Priests and Jesuites want neither art nor impudence to perswaâ—e silly wretches that hopes of Heaven and deliverance from Hell are only to be found in their Church Dub. Truely Sir I am verily perswaded that many who have left your Church and gone over to that of Rome have stumbled at such straws but you have known me long to be a man of no vitious life no male Content not ambitious of honour or preferment not apt to be paffed up with a proud conceit of mine own parts not cold or carelesse in point of Religion but the chiefe reasons that moved me to goe over to the Church of Rome were those before named which made me believe that Church to be the only true Catholick Church out of which there could be no hope of salvation to these I beg your answer Firm. And you shall have it 1. The doctrine of the present Church of Rome which alone could denominate her ancient Catholick and Apostolicall is in severall weighty points quite contrary to holy scripture neither hath it the generall consent of the fathers and Doctors of the Catholick Church the prâ—sent Church of Rome is no more like to what it once was in the purest primitive times than an old decrepit man full of diseases Gout Stone Palsy Dropsy Scurvey Blindnesse Deafnesse Wrinkles and a multitude of
infirmities is the same Strong Handsome Healthy Man that he was when at twenty five or thirty years old Dub. Thô I have sometimes much reverenced the Church of Rome for her antiquity yet now I begin to doubt that there are many diseases in the body of that Church many wrinkles in her face which were not from the beginning but not withstanding those infirmities 't is the same true Church as 't was at the first plantation as the old decrepite man is the same man that ever he was for substance Firm. I deny not but that the Church of Rome is in some sence the same it first was in respect of divers Articles it holds but in respect of those gross errours it now maintaines 't is no more like what it was then the old decrepite diseased man is like what he was in his younger dayes Dub. Your comparison is very good and apposite to the present Church of Rome which past dispute is full of dangerous and desperate diseases as I in part do apprehend I pray you proceed to my other motive Firm. The Church of Rome is not so universal as her disciples boast of neither in respect of place or time 1. 'T is the observation of a learned man that if the world were divided into 30 parts 19 of them are heathens 6 Mahometans and 5 Christians of which the Papists are not the one halfe as Mr. Breirwood in his Enquires does demonstrate 2. As to the universality of time the Church of Rome cannot deduce her present tenents from the beginning of Christianity through the several ages or Centuryes that it has continued a Church from the first preaching of the Gospell I deny not but that 't is the same for purity of Doctrine as once it was is most false for the antient Church of Rome never taught worshiping of images praying to Saints that monstrous transubstantiation halfe Communion Praier in an unknowne tongue and many more Groundless fopperies against Scripture the general consent of fathers common sence and reason Dub. All this I am inclined to believe but how could these errours creepe into a Church which did so punctually observe the traditions of their forefathers what the Church of Rome now believes and teaches it received from the Church that was in the next age before it that from the Church next before it and so quite down to the Apostles times as the Author of the Dialogues betwixt the Vnckle and the Nephew hath most learnedly demonstraâ—ed Firm. Truly very learnedly even as Zeno proved there was no locall motion you have heard how Diogenes confuted him by an ocular demonstration were not the Scribes and Pharises great pretenders to a Strict observation of the traditions of their fathers And yet we know how grosly they had corrupted the law of Moses as is evident by our Saviours confutation of them Mat. 5. and in severall other places Dr. Crakanâ—thorp and other Learned prâ—â—â—stants do evidently shew the beginning the progress of the Corruptions of the Church of Rome the manner of their spring and Growth but Suppose we cannot punctually tâ—ll the beginning and progress of such and such an errour shall we therefore believe it to be no errour you walk sometimes in the fields 't is evident to your eyes that the Grasse aâ—d graine do grow though you do not see them move at all sometimes you visit a friend that is sick of a languishing consumption you see by infallible symptoms that your friend is in a desperate Condition will you not believe him to be so because you cannot tell the time when or the manner how his disease came upon him Dub I cannot be so unreasonable and by what you have said my third reason falls to the Ground for the present Church of Rome has no agreement with the primitive but is extreamly opposite to it in the points before named besides many others I pray let me hear what you can say against their unity for they seem to be firmly united under one infallible head the Pope Firm. Truely Sir they do but seem so for they are miserably divided in the great fundamentall of their faith their infallibility and are not they very unjust to us to exact our beliefe of that which they themselves know not where to find for some of them tell us 't is fixed to the Popes chair some say 't is to be found in a Generall Councell otâ—â—rs believe it to be in neither but in both united together others would perswade us that 't is in the whole body of the Church so that if you seek after this pretty knack of infallibillity you will be abused as young apprentices are used to be in great Cittys and corporations who in waggery are sent from shop to shop for a penyworth of Ell-broad Packthred or a pound of stock-fish Tallow or a Lefthanded Shuttle after these poore novices have been sent from one end of the Citty to the other they returne home without such ridiculous Commodities and are sufficiently exposed to laughter and derision There 's scarce a Controversy in all Bellarmin's voluminous workes wherein he recites not the different opinions of the Roman Catholicks among themselves insomuch that this great Cardinals workes were not to be bought in Rome as Sir Edw Sandyes reports in his Europa speculum because he had so imprudently discovered the nakednesse of his mother in point of unity To say nothing of the contentions betwixt the Thomists and Scotists Ochamists c 't is pleasant to see how sweetly the Dominicans Franciscans Iesuites Molinists Iansenists Regulars and seculars agree together Though a laté Pope durst be so bold as to decide a Controversy for the Molimists against the Iansenians and so that which was none before very luckily became an article of Faith such is the Popes omnipotent Power that he can create Articles of Faith out of that which was a pure noâ—-entity a very nothing in the primitive times yet I heare that the Iansenists are so saucy as to continue very Iansenists still notwithstanding his holinesses inâ—allible determination Dub. I see there is no such unity in the Church of Rome as they bragg of I desire to heare what you can say against the Sanctity of their Doctrine Firm the Sanctity of their Doctrine referrs to that of Faith and Manners for that of Faith which is briefly comprehended in the Apostles Creed or any other Doctrinall poynt contained in holy Scripture expressly or by good consequence deduced from thence by the generall consent of Fathers we allow of but as for popish additions of new atticles by Pope Pius the 4. and the councell of Trâ—nt that are against Scripture and can never be justified by the generall consent of the ancient Doctors of the Church we reject as false and consequently not Holy this I suppose you will demâ—nsâ—rate when you please to give me the reasons which made you forsake the present Church of Rome As to their Saâ—ctity of manners their
that are contingent or such as do depend upon the will of man they have but conjectures and do often times lie and deceive us in both kinds for as natural things are variable so much more the will of man Porphyrius lib. de Resp. oraâ— cited by Parsons in his Resol pag. 62. Dub. This testimony of Porphyrius being an Heathen and a great enemy to Christianity is very considerable and experiâ—nâ—e shews it to be very true for Oâ—acles have deâ—eived many and we see that Astrologers can give no certain predictions concerning the weather which depâ—nds upon natural causes and therefore I desire you to sheâ— me if you can any Prophesies of Scripture that are more certain Firm. I shall begin with that of Abraham concerning his posterities inheriting the Land of promise of their servitude in a strange Land of their mighty deliverance 400 years before it came to pass you may for this compare Cen. 15.13.14 c. with Exod. 12. Second Iacob being in Egypt on his death bed propheâ—â—ed thus of his â—on Iudah that the Scepter should not depart from him until Shilo came which fell out accordingly at the birth of our Saviour at which time the Scepter was in the hâ—nd of a stranger Herod by name and then and not till then it finally departed from Iuda Third 'T was Prophesied of Iosias â—00 years before he was born that he should destroy the Altar at Bethel 1. Kings 13. which was exactly fullfilled 2. Kings 23. Fourth You may see how punctual the Prophet Isaiah is in fortelling the nativity the life the passion of our blessed Saviouâ— in so much that he writeth more like an Historian then a Prophet as also how he foretells the destruction of Hierâ—salem and the greivous Captivity of the Jews by and under the Babylonians and then the destruction of the Babylonians and the rebuilding of Hierusalem by Cyrus 200 years before he was born the same was foretold by Ieremy about a 100 years after Isaiah and these Prophecies were so famous and so certainly believed amongst the Jews in the time of their captivity that when the time of their expiration drew near Daniel thus writeth of himself In the first year of Darius I Daniel understood in the Scripture the number of the 70 years c. Dan. 9.1 Neither did the Jews only understand and believe this Prophecy but Cyrus himselfe an Heathen which was his great inducement to restore the Jews and rebuild the Temple at his own proper charges Ezra 1. And Heathen Historians confess as much Fifth The Prophecy of Daniel concerning the four great Monarchies is so clear and evident so distinctly described as if he had lived in them all Dan. 2. and Dan. 8. how also he foretold the coming and suffering of the Messias after 70 weeks cap. 9. many more of such Prophecies might be alleaged but these are abundantly sufficient to attest the divine authority of Scripture Dub. T is very true if you could prove there were ever such Prophets or Prophecys in the world Firm. What proof do you expect will you believe nothing but what you see with your own eies Dub. That were irrational if you can prove by a certain tradition that there were ever such Prophecies delivered by such men as you name I shall assent unto them Firm. This I shall perform first from the whole nation of the Jews which have delivered them from Father to Son down along for many generation do you think that a people so carefull and diligent in the keeping and transcribing their records could or would agree together upon no worldly interest at all yea even to the hazard of their lives and fortunes to abuse themselves and their posterity Dub. I confess 't is not very probable but have you any other proof for the certainty of these Prophecyes Firm. Yes From the Testimony of very Heathens 'T is said by Iosephus lib. 1 de Antiq. Iud. cap. 4. that the publick writings of the Syreans Chaldaeans Phâ—nicians Graeciâ—ns are sufficient to testifie the antiquity truth authority and certainity of Holy Scriptures if there were no other proofe in the world beside There is scarce a memorable passage in the Old Testament but 't is mentioned by some Heathen writer as the Creation of the world Noah's Flood the Confusion of Tongues the Children of Israels living in and coming out of the land of Egypâ— the writings of Moses the Babylonish Captivity c. as you may see in Euseb. Grotius de verit Christ. Relig. Parsons Resol Cap. 3. lib. 1. part 1. Dub. Indeed a Testimony from an adversary is beyond all exception I rest satisfied with what you have said for the Authority of the Old Testament have you any thing to say for the New more then what you have said in general for them both together Firm. Yes I have the miracles of our Saviour and his blessed Apostles wrought for the confirmation of what they taught acknoledged by Heathens Grotius de ver Chris. Relig. Besides if you assent to the Divine Authority of the Old Testament you must acknowledg the Divinity of the New which is for the most part nothing else but an explication of the Old and the history of those Prophesies now fullfilled which were delivered by the Prophets who lived in the time of the law You may add to this the miraculous preservation of both Testaments not withstanding the malice of persecuting Heathens who used all arts of cruelty to extinguish them the propagation of the Christian Religion into so many parts of the prejudicating world without yea contrary to all carnal force and worldly inteâ—est by a few simple unlearned men which if t was done without a Miracle was one of the greateâ—t Miracles that ever we read of To this may be added the opposition of many subtil Hereticks who never durst so much as question the Authority of the Scripture but rather betook themselves to their own false glosses that they might shift of those clear texts which made against them whereas it had been a more Compendious way to have utterly denyed them if their impudence had been so great as to oppose the general belief of those times wherein they lived Dub. Tho I am sufficiently convinced of the divine Authority of the Scripture and of the truth of those Miracles which were wronght by Christ and his Apostles for the confirmation of what they taught yet to remove all scruples that may be made against them I shall desire to be more fully satisfied in two exceptions that are urged by Antiscripturists 1. That they were no true Miracles 2. That we have no certainty that there were ever such persons in the world as Christ and his Apostles or that they ever wrought such mighty works as are recorded of them in the New Testament Firm. That there were such persons in the world as Christ and his Apostles that they wrought those Miracles which are mentioned in the History of them both Jews and Gentiles sworn
Doctrine is so farr from it that the better sort of heathens would blush to own for brevity sake I shalâ— reâ—err you to the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme the Jesuites morralls set out bâ— a Sorbon Doctor Mr. Fowles his History of the treasons and rebellions of these holy men the two former of these bookes assure us that by the Doctrine of probability and a good intention the fowlest Sins are at most but venial Dub. The Jesuites are but one party in the Church of Rome many oâ— their tenents and practises disclaiâ—â—d by other of the papists and therefore the whole Church is not chargeable with their errors Firm. Untill that Church doth expresly Condemn thâ—m and Execute Ecclesiasticall Censurâ—s upon such of her members as do broach those damnable Doctrines doth make them recâ—nt or excommunicate them she is chargeable with them Dub. I am of your opinion and do firmly believe the pâ—esent Câ—urch of Rome to be neither Holy nâ—â— Câ—tholiâ—k but an unsound member of that Church but what say you to the first â—oundeâ—s and â—athers of their Church were not tâ—ey vâ—ry 〈◊〉 men Firm. â— Bâ—llarmine could prove what he takes for granâ—ed that tâ—e Fathers and Founders oâ—â—heir Chuâ—ch as it now stands were the hoâ—y Patriarchs Prophets and Apostles I should agree with him in that note but the truth is they have no more right to call them their Fathers and Founders then the Scribes and â—harisees had to caâ—l Abraham their Father from whose faith they had so miserably declined the Fathers of the present Church of Rome as 't is now were the corrupt Councells which were so many pack'd Juryes and the popes of whose Sanctity you may consult Platina who was a Papist By what I have said I hope you are satisfied that you had no justifyable reasons to adhere to the Church of Rome as 't is now so much declined from the Primitive let me know how and why you did forsake it Dub. I am fully satisfied that the reasons which drew me over to that Church were false and fallacious and am now as much confirmed that the reasons which made me leave her Communion are solid and demonstrative 1. Which were her monstrous unnecessary imposible Doctrine of transubstantiation Firm. How do you prove that to be unnecessary Dub. The change of the bread and wine into the very body and blood of Christ is unnecessary because certain it is and they of the Church of Rome acknowledge it that there never was any such change in the Sacraments of â—he old Testament neithâ—r is there any in the other six of the New as the Papists are pleased to multiply them now if all other Sacraments without any such miraculous change do attain their ends for which they were instituted why should it be required in the holy Eucharist why not rather in that of baptism why should not the baptismall water be changed into Christs very blood this being the Sacrament of Regeneration that that of Nutrition surely as great a power and vertue is required to regenerate and make a Christian as to nourish and strengthen him Again the faithful both before and under the law did eate and drink the body and blood of Christ in a Spiritual manner before he had either body or blood They did eat the same Spiritual Meat and dranke the same Spiritual Drinke 1. Cor. 10.3 what need is there then of a Transubstantiation If we seriously peruse the sixt Chapt of St. Iohns Gospel we may learne that the body of Christ is eaten and his blood dranke in a Spiritual manner that when the Disciples murmured at what our Saviour had delivered in the former verses to satisfye them he replyes that the words which he spake were spirit and life Ver. 63. and not to be understood according to their gross conception I know some the Church of Rome affirm that in â—hat Chapter our blessed Saviour speaks not of a Sacramentall eating of the body of Christ but certainly is his body may be eaten and his blood drank without any such monstrous change by every true beleiver not Receiving why may not he eat the body and drink the blood of Christ without any substantiall change of the Bread and Wine when he receives besides â— most if not all of the ancient fathers who held a necessity of giveing the Eucharist to infants urge the 53. verse of this Chapter for their opinion and practise except yee Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Bloud ye have no life in you Surely therefore they conceived that our Saviour meant by these words a Sacramentall eating how then dare any of the Clergy of the Church of Rome expound it otherwise seeing they take an oath never to expound Scripture but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers see the forma juramenti professionis fidei Conc. Triden Sess. 24. Cap. 4. de Reformatione Firm. I very much approve your reason against the necessity of transubstantiation Let me here from you why you tearme it monstrous and impossible Dub. 'T is therefore monstrous and impossible because it implyes Contradictions and grosse absurdities 1. that a body is not a body an accident is not an accident for if there should be such a change the sâ—me numericall body of our Saviour must be in Heaven and Earth nay in ten thousand places at the same time â—it must be extended and not extended it must have dimensions and no dimensions finite and not finite which cannot be no not by Gods omnipotent and absolute power how do the schoolmens Noddles abound with nicetyes quidditys perseities Chimaeras to solve such incompossibilities 2. This strange Metamorphosis doth make accidents to be no accidents it takes away the very being of them for accidâ—ntis esse â—st inâ—sse the being of an accident is in-being here must be Colour sapor odor quantity without a Subject which is all one as if we should say a man might be a man without a reasonable Soule In a word I would willingly learne what does become of Christs Body and Bloud after 't is received into the mouth or if any prophane mouse should swallow part of it or lick up a drop of the bloud and thence into the stomach whether it be retransubstantiated into bread and wine or else be converted by the concoctive and nutritive faculty into the body of the Communicant as other nourishment is and then t will necessarily follow that Christs Body is essentially united unto and made one with the Body of every Communicant which borders very nere upon Bâ—asphemy for by this means Iames Nailer will ere long quod animus mâ—minisse horret be Jesus Christ. 3. This Transubstantiation if any such thing were possible is wrought by a miracle but was ever any miracle done by Christ and his Apostles which was not discernable by the sences when â—e cured the blind the dumb the lame when he turned water into wine was not this manifest
to the Sight the Smell the Tast shall we think that the God of truth Gave to mâ—n five Scences to deceive 4 of them by one pretended miracle or that 't is his method to informe the mind by Impostures if one or two or three Senses may be deceived why not all then what will become of Romes orall Tradition for may not the eare be deceived as well as the eye the nose the tast the touch here are 4 Sences to one against that tradition and then how are the papists certain of what they have received from the present Church or how is shee certaine of what shee received from the Church immediatly before her is not the doctrine of Transubstantiation which teaches men not to believe their eyes and other of their Sences a ready way to Atheism and infidelity for if four of the five Sences may be deceived then farewell all tradition and if these inferiour faculties may be thus bafled what satisfaction could it have been to St. Thomas that Christ was truly risen from the dead by putting his finger into the print of the nailes or his hand into his side But beside what sence and reason witness against this monstrous opinion the Scripture is clearely opposite unto it for Christ at the institution of this Sacrament did not take his own Body into his handâ— but Bread he brake not his owne Body but Bread he did not eat his own Body he did not drinke his owne Blood but he drank of the fruit of the Vine Mat. 26.29 for so he called it after Consecration and Distribution I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of the Vine c. in like manner St. Paul 'T is stil this bread and this cup. 1. Cor. 11.26 When our Saviour saies Hoc est corpus meum what doth hoc stand for either it must signify this thing in my hand i. e. the bread or else his own body which body he holding in his hand utters these words hoc est corpus meum that is corpus meum est corpus meum a mere Identical trifleing proposition which according to all Logick is most absurd and destroys the very nature of a Sacrament which consists of two essential parts the sign and the thing signified besides they of Rome conâ—ess that the Body of Christ is not present under the species of Bread and Wine when the Preist begins to pronounce hoc nor till he hath uttered the last sillable um hoc est corpus meum such poore shifts these men are forced to use As for antiquity so much boasted of by those of Rome I know that some of the fathers to draw mens minds from the earthly elements to heavenly misteries used now and then high Rhetoricall expressions never dreaming of any substantiall change of the elements into the Body and Bloud of Christ as is evident from Iraeneus Panis Communis post consecrationem non est amplius panis communis sed efficitur Eucharistia quae constat ex duabus naturis terrenâ caelâ—sti haec oblatio â—st figura corporis sanguinis Christi Ambrose 1. ad Cor. Cap. 11. lib. 4. de Sacram. Non dubitavit dominus dicere hoc est corpus meum cum dedit fignum sui corporis Aug Epist 23. ad Bonifa 12. Cap. contra Adiman Hoc est corpus meum i. e. typus corporis mei Terâ—ull Panem vinum Appellatione corporis sanguinis honoravit non naturam quidem mutans sed naturae gratiam adjiciens Theod. dial 1. 2. In a word the ancient fathers who opposed the Eutychian haeresy did make use of the sacramentall union of Bread and Wine to the body and blood of Christ shewing that the humane nature of Christ is not more changed into the divine then the Sacramentall Bread and Wine is into the very Body and Blood of Christ therefore they believed no such thing as that monstrous Popish transubstantiation So that we see the falsity and absurdity of it by Scripture antiquity common sence and reason besides the great danger of Idolatry in worshipping a piece of bread if there be no transubstantiation as some of the papists themselves confesse and they also acknowledge that if the Priest that consecrates were not rightly ordained or that he did not actually intend to consecrate or that he omitted any one Ceremony which they call necessary at the time of consecration that the Bread and Wine are not duely Consecrated and consequently no transubstantiation and therefore great probability that the Papists in worshipping the host do frequently comitt the very great Sin of Idolatry which was to me one great reason of forsaking their Communion Firm. Truely 't was a substantiall reason and such an one that has wrought upon others beside your selfe however I desire to hear from you what further reasons you had to leave the Church of Rome Dub. The next which I shall acquaint you with is the half Communion so manifestly against scripture and antiquity Our Blessed Saviour at the instituition of the Sacrament commands drinke yee all of this whereas at the giveing of the bread he said only take Eate foreseeing and obviating this grand error of the Church of Rome 't is true the persons then communicating were only his disciples which had received their Commissioâ— to preach the Gospell before that time but not in that ample and full manner as they received it after his Resurection as is plain from Iohn 20 22 23. and Mâ—t. 28 29. but be it granted that they were all in full orders and upon that account the Cup was given them otherwise they should not have received it by the same reason the bread might be denyed to the people because none but Priests did then Communicate but we know that a Priest when he doth not consecrate is in the place of a Lay-man and consequently the disciples not consecrating at the Supper were no better and therefore according to the doctrine and practise of the Church of Rome should not have received the Cup. But what will they thinke of the whole Church of Corinth to whom St. Paul sent a first and second Epistle they cannot imagine they were all Priests observe then how â—e â—xhorts all of them to examine themselves in order to the receiving of the holy Eucharist under both kinds 1. Cor 11. this is so eviâ—ent that our adveâ—saries have nothing to Reply As for Antiquity the practise of the Câ—urch of Rome is clearly against it as Iam able to demonstrate from express testimonies of the fathers but our learned writers have â—aved me that trouble those that please may peruse Chamiâ—re Châ—mnitius Iewell Cracanthorp The confeâ—sion of the Councell of Coâ—stance stands as a lasting Monument against the Popish innovation in this particular the words are these we decree in like manner that though in the Primitive Church the holy Eucharist was received under both kinds by the faithfull yet this Custome to avoid some dangers and scandals is reasonably
swore by a good Man by which 't is evident how the grosse superstition of the Church of Rome hath crooked silly Souls and that all such images are teachers of Lies very vanities as the Scripture shews and reason demonstrates For to say nothing of the Blasphemous images of God the Father and the holy Trinity doth not the image of any Saint whom these pseudo-Catholicks worship lie to their imaginations representing that which is not for nothing but the Soules and Spirits of those Saints do now remain so that whilest they picture and worship them in bodily shapes which pictures represent what is not they worship they know not what praying onely to the Soules of Saints yet phansying them in bodily shapes as when they lived here on earth how doth it concern all Serious Christians to beware of the Religious worship of any creature of Gods or mans makeing of Angell Saint or Image which is so expressly forbidden in the word of God And surely if we might worship the picture of a man which is mans Creature 't were much more rational to worship a true man yea the Son Moon and Starrs and all thâ— host of heaven they being all of them the Creatures of Almighty God Firm. You rightly conclude were not a judiciall blindness upon the eyes of our adversaries they could not be Guilty of so dangerous a suspition Dub. I shall trouble you but with one reason more for my forsakeing the Church of Rome which was breifely their praiers in an unknown tongue a practise manifestly contrary to plain Scripture and the antient Doctors of the Church a most unreasonable service opposite to that which we are to perform to Almightâ— God 'T is so bafled by St. Paul that all the learned â—en of the Roman party have nothing of sence or reason to answer and as for antiquity 't was not so much as thought upon in the first ages in the Church the Liturgies then every where were in the known and vulgar tongue otherwise how should the unlearned say Amen The practise of the Church of Rome is in this as in divers other of their fopperyes a very mistery of iniquity I could heartily wish that for the undeceiveing of ignorant Papists their Missales Pontifical's Breviaryes Lady Psaltres c. were translated into the English and other vulgar tongues that such poore deluded soules might see to what absurd prayers they say Amen to what childish ridiculous Ceremonies they â—ubmit I might here add the vain Reptitions of so many Ave-Maria's Pater-noster's upon their beads their saying of them at certain houres as a Pensum or taske or a Pennance to make a Compensation for their sins rather then as a willing serious duty from the heart and soule which is not Religious praying but a Childish saying of prayers a vain heathenish babling after the manner of an old wises charm resting in the work done as if the bare saying of prayers without any intention of the mind were the only end of praying or the effectuall â—ervenâ— prayer of a Righteous man Iam. 5.16 I might also add their cheating Purgatory their purchasing of pardons and indulgences for sins past and for many hundred yeares to come by sums of money sett downe in the Tax booke of their Chancery their Pilgrimages and bodily Severityes to expiate for the sins of their soules their allowing of Brothell houses to Gratiâ—ye the unmarried Clergy and others in their unclean Lusts for which the Pope receives a luâ—ty Pension But to deale truely with you no one thing wrought a greater dislike of Popery in me then their barbarous bloody Cruelâ—y towards those that they please to call Haereticks their savage inquisition their Parisian Irish and other massacres their marian Butcherings their intended matchless powder treason their poysoning and stabing of kings their Justifieing of Rebellion and all manner of wickedness by their right intention and Doctrine of probability as is to be seen in the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme in the Jesuites Morralls can such Villany such Cruelty and Christianity stand together did Christ and his Apostles propagate the Gospel with such Carnall weapons how severely does our Saviour rebuke his angry disciples when they would have called for fire from heaven to destroy the uncivill Schismatical Samaritans yâ—e know not what spirit yee are of for the son of man is not come to dâ—stroy mens lives but to save them Luk. 9.55 O that Christs pretending Vicar had the spirit of the meeke and holy Jesus These Sir were the reasons which moved me to forsake the Communion of the Church of Rome for upon this account I could not believe her to be the Catholick Church or any sound part of it but a very Schismatical Haeretical one that had departed exceeding much from Primitive Christianity from the faith that was once delivered to the Sainâ—s Firm. You have given very sufficient reasons for your departure from that unsound Church which may satisfie any serious considering Christian and you have saved me the trouble of any further addition to them I am now fully perswaded that you are neither Atheist Infidel or Papist pray you let me know what is your present perswasion and what Church you most â—pprove Dub. Truely Sir there are so many sects amongst the Protestants that I am in no small doubt with which of them to hold Commuion but my inclination leads me chiefly to returne to my old Mother the Church of England from which most unhappily as I am now convinced I heretofore separated however for the removâ—l of some scruples which yet remain with me â— earnestly desire you to give your selfe the trouble of a short discourse concerning the severall sects now in England Firm. I shall most â—readily gratifie you In this your very reasonable request nothing doubting but that I shall by Gods Gratious assiâ—tance remove all your scruples and fix you a true son of that Church which is the most Catholick Apostolical Church now exstant in all the world which those that do acknowledge the holy Scriptâ—re to be the infallible word of God the perfect Rule of all the substantialls of Christianity both for faith and manners and have some competent knowledge in the records of antiquity the want of which is one great cause of hâ—resy and schism as to be able to trace Christian Religion through the severall ages of the Church from the Apostles down to these presenâ— times I say those that do acknowledge these things cannot doubt of Dub. You much confirm me in what I have often heard from grave and learned men that one great cause of errours in Religion is ignorance in the writings of the ancient Doctors of the Church Councels and Ecclesiasticall histories this is not every mans work that have neither books to read nor brains to understand them and that tâ—e surest way to be an Orthodox Christian is by studying descendendo beginning with the records of the first century then
discending to the second thence to the third and so on to the succeding ages of the Church whereby he will perceive how the true Religion has been handed downe from one age to another and how and when this or that errour sprang up as he â—hat sails down some great and clear pure river may easily perceive where little Rivuletts and puddles have run into it and have muddyed and troubled the Cleareâ— Stream Firm. I much approve of what you say concerning the rise and cause of errours in Religion the chiefe reason of them is ignorance in the records of Antiquity and holy Scriptures and want of orderly proceeding in our studies from age to age whereby we may easily perceive how and when the puddles corrupt rivuleâ—s of errour have troubled the purer stream of Christianity and you may without much labour perceive that if you had been well instructed in the being and Attributes of Almighty God in a firm beliefe of his most sacred word you had never fallen into those most dangerous errours of Popery Quakerism or oâ— any such pernicous sect Dub. I do confesse my error and especially that I was so great a stranger not onely to the writings of the fathers but to the holy Scripture it selfe which I did too much neglect and scorn but seeing by Gods blessing upon your endeavours I am fully satisfied of the vanity absurdity and falshood of Atheism infidelity and Popery if you please to give your self thâ—t trouble we will proceed in our discourse concerning Quakerism Anabaptism Independency and Presbytery I shall not trouble you with any other sect because they are all included in some one of these or at least are so vain and ridiculous that we should do them to much honour if we should gratifie them with a sober and serious confutation Firm. I shall most willingly embrace your proposall and if it please you we will proceed to Quakerism the errour which you embraced immediatly before you turned Papist and in truth 't is a faire introduction to Popery and by many grosse errours which the Quakers embrace 't is as evident as the light at noon day who were the fathers of those spurious brats Dub. This is a very truth the Quakers holding many things which are maintained by Papists we may easily know whose Children these poor deluded Souls are and the Corespondence betwixt them made my passage to Rome more ready and easy DIALOGVE IV Against QVAKERISM Firm. You have informed me in our last discourse that being sometime a quaker you had a ready way open to become a Papist I pray tell me why and how you turned a quaker Dub. You put me hard to it for I can give yoâ— no verâ— good reasons for that change and those that moved me are so ridiculous that I am almost ashamed to name them yet such as they are I shall give you the trouble of hearing them I am almost perswaded that the man that perverted me used some enchantments and Diabolicall arts so that I was rather bewitched then rationally perswaded to be of that party as I have heard some have been but because I am not certain of this I shall wave it and shew you my reasons 1. I observed that the cause why there were so many sects and schisms in the world was for want of a certain infallible rule to guide us in our judgments and practises as I was made believe and I was perswaded that the Quakers had such a rule to wit the light within them 2. I observed these men to be very demure in their carriage very austere in their lives sober and tempâ—â—â—tâ— of afflicted dejected countenances very punctuall and just in their dealings not abating one fartâ—ing of the price of any commodity they first demanded greâ—t contemners of the world no respecters of any mans person how great soever so meeke humble and lowly in their apparell and behavior that they cannot endure the wearing of gold-rings silver or silks in themselves or any others and if any man should strike them on the one cheek these poore innocent soules were so farr from revenge that they would turne the other so that I conceiued them to be so many Nathaniels so many true Israelites in whom there was no guile Firm. How could you be deceived by such painted sepulchers what could you see more in them then what was conspicuous in the Scribes and Phariâ—ees of old take iâ— for an infalible rule that whosoever hold or practise any thing which is contrary to the law of nature and good manners expresse Scripture the usages of all sober and civill people in the world are so farr from being true Christians that they are not worthy the name of men Dub. I am fully of your perswasion that these men hold and practise many things which are contrary to the law of nature good manners and holy Scripture but for my farther satisfaction let us discourse some of their tenents and practises Firm. For their tenents you may at your leisure peruse the Synopsis of Quakerisme wrote by Mr. Danson The heads whereof are breifly these taken out of their owne writings which are a mixture of Popery and Socinianisme as 1. They affirm that there are not three persons in the Trinity 2. That Christ did not make satisfaction for the sins of men 3. That justification is not by imputed righteousness but that our owne inhaerent righteousness and good works is the cause of our justification 4. That a state of perfection and freedome from sin is attainable in this life 5. That there is a light in every man sufficient to guide him to salvation 6. That the Scripture is not the word of God or a standing rule of faith and manners 7. That there is no resurrection of the dead 8. That there is no need or use of ordinances as Baptisme and the Lords Supper 9. That 't is unlawfull to take an oath before a Magistrate upon any account whatsoever Dub. I know these and many more to be the positions of quakers and that they are directly contrary to sacred Schripture Firm. These things are so clearly confuted by the expresse word of God and tradition of the Catholick Church that 't is superfluous to trouble you with any further discourse about them As for their practises they are extreamly opposite to all good manners and the Civilities of aâ—l Nations that are not grosly barbarous as well as â—o the holy Scripture and whereas you have observed their carriages to be very demure austere and that they are of a sad countenance 't is no more then what our blessed Saviour reproved in the Scribes and Pharisees long since indeed to be sad and mourn in times of publick Humiliation Calamities and great Judgements is Christian but to be constanly so savours too much of the Pharisee and is contrary to holy Scripture which instructs us there is a time to Laugh as well as to Weepe there is nothing which more delights and cheers the
the folly and madness of this Phanaticism and from whence it sprang please you we will discourse of Anabaptisme pray you what do you think of that DIALOGVE V. against Anabaptisme Firm. ANabaptism is a most carnal and bloody Sect as appears by the History of Iohn of Leiden Knipperdoling wrot by Sleiden and Bullenger Dub. But what do you think of their opnion â—oncerning Infâ—nt Baptism I shall not trouble you with other of their Tenents which are common to them with other Schismaticks Firm. That Opinion of theirs is contrary to Scripture and the practise of the Catholick Church Dub. I have often heâ—rd them say That if there were any express Text in Scripture for the Baptisiâ—g of Infants they would allow of that practise Firm. Though there be no express place in Scripture for it as there was for Circumcising of Children under the law yet there are many Texts which do infer it by rational consequence What express Text is there for the Communicating of Woemen which nevertheless the Anabaptists practise have they not express Texts for obeying the Civil Magistrate for taking an Oath before him thou shalt swear the Lord liveth in justice in judgment and truth Thou shalt fear the Lord and swear by his name I call God for a recâ—rd upon my Soul an Oath for Confirmation is not was an end of all strife And we have the Angel in the Revelation which was never under the Levitical law swearing Yoâ— see here are express Texts for obedience to Magistrates and for taking an Oath before them yet the Anabaptists will not swear at all which is a moral duty enjoyned in the third CoÌ„mandment and how obedient they are to the Supream powers let Germany and England witness in our â—ate Civil Wars so that you may see that if there were an express Text for Infant Baptism they would not yeild unto it but follow their own wild imaginations Dub. Doubtless 't is grand hypocrisy to call for express Texts for Infants-Baptism and yet to act directly against such Texts in other points of Necessary duty Firm. True it is we have no express Texts for Infants-Baptism yet we have many that do necessarily infer it as that of our Savioâ—r suffer little Children â—o come unto me which he took in his Arms and Blessed certainly those that were capable of his blessing were capable of the seal of it The children of believers are said to be holy The promise is to you and to your children Go teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost All which places evidently shew that the children of believing Christians have as much right to baptism as the children of the Jews had to Circumcision unless we should say that the Lord was more gratious to the Jews then he is to us Christians and that the hand of his mercy is shortned to us which was so much stretched out to them If their Children were in Covenant with God as it is evident they were Deut. 29.11 then are the Children of Christians under the same priviledge unless any man can give a good reason to the contrary which must be drawn either froÌ„ the Mercy or Judgment of God There is no shew of reason to say 't was from his Judgment much less from his Mercy for who dare say 't is a mercy not to be in Covenant with God To these Texts of Scripture we may add the practise of the Catholick Church for Fifteen hundred years as appears by the writers in their several Centuries which is the best Commentary upon the Scripture The Fathers who lived in the first ages of the Church had a fairer oâ—poâ—tunity to understand the meaning of the Apoâ—tles and their immediate successors then we that live at so great a distance Tertullian one of the most Ancient of them confesseth the practise of Infant Baptism tho he does not approvâ— it Cyprian and Fidus would never have contendeâ— about the â—ircumstance of time if they had doubted of the lawfulness of the thing I mâ—y add to what has been said Either the Baptising of Infants is a small error or 't is a great and gross one if iâ— be but a small error an error of Charity towards poor Infants why did the Anaâ—apâ—iâ—ts in the late times of confusion separate from those Churches which did not impose it as a necessary conâ—ition of Communion with them If it be a great and gross one then the Catholick Church has maintained a gross error for Fifteen hundred years and upward How then was that promise made good unto it that Christs spirit should lead it into all truth and that the gates of Hell should not prevail against it Dub. Indeed those Texts of Scripture so well explained by the practise of the Catholick Church â—or so many years since the time of the Apostles is an evident argument for the proof of Infant Baptism but are you certain that Infant Baptism was practised in the Primitive times Firm. We are most certain from the writings of the Fathers in those times Irenaeus lib. 2. cap. 39. Origen lib. 5. in cap. 6. ad Rom. Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 8. ad â—idum Hieronymus lib. 3. contra Pelagianos Nazian Oraâ—iones in sacrum lavacrum Basil Orat. Exhort ad Baptismum Chrisost. Homil. 1. ad Neophyr Augustine lib. 10. de Gen. cap. 23. The custome of Baptising Infants is an Apostolical Tradition lib. 4. de Baptismo cap. 24. idem affâ—rmat Prosper lib. 22. de Vocatione Geâ—tium cap. 8. These three Fathers making use of the Baptising of Infants as an argument against the Pelagians who denyed Original Sin which practise of Infant Baptism these subtile Hereticks durst never deny because they knew 't was the practise of the Catholick Church Dub. 'T is strange thâ—t so mâ—ny Testimonies of the Antient Doctors of the Church with such evident places of Scripture before allegd should not silence these perverse men Firm. By terming them perverse you render a just reason why neither Scripture nor Fathers nor Arguments â—ill satisfie them few of this Sect or indeed of any other are Leâ—rned except it be their Leaders Popish Priests and Jesuits which spread such errors by design to make divisions among us that they might â—eign Now 't is no strang thing to see ignorance and perversness to dwell under the â—ame roof for whosoever is capable of Conviction must have some knowledg and reason that he may be able to understand the force of an argument when 't is proposed unto him as seduced Sectaries being men of very short discourse do not Besides that little portion of reason which remains in them is so beclouded with selâ—conceit interest and faction prejudice pride and uncharitableness thâ—t they have utterly loâ—t all use of it He that doubts of this let him discourse either with Quaker or Anabaptist and he will find them a very proud ignorant conceited perverse people Dub. I have sufficient experience of their Pride and Perversness
perswaded that Shisms and Heresies are the necessary consequents of mens invading the Ministry without regular Ordination But for my better satisfaction I pray you let me understand the reasons that make against this Independent practise Firm. My Reasons are these drawn First from plain Scripture as Ierem. 14.14 and 23.21 where there is a complaint against those Prophets That Prophesied lyes in Gods name and he sent them not And again the same Prophet I have not sent these Prophets and yet they ran I have not spoken unto them and yet they Prophesied therefore they shall not profit these people at all Neither was this Sending and Calling a necessary requisite only under the Law but also in the time of the Gospel The first that were ever called and sent to preach the glad tidings of the kingdom of Heaven were the Apostles who were first Disciples to the best of Masters before they were sent out to Preach First Qualified foâ— the work and then Sent. So upon the treason and death of Iudas Matthias was made an Apostle in his place but by Election and Ordination Acts 1. Heb. 5. No man must take this honoâ— upon him but he that is called of God either immediately or by the Governors of the Church and hereupon it was that St. Paul left Timothy at Ephesus and Titus at Creete to Ordain Elders in every Citty instructing them how the Priests and Deacons ought to be qualified 'T is well worth our observation how the Apostle makes the salvation of men to depend ordinarily upon the Preaching of Sent and Called Ministers Rom. 10. Whosoever calleth upon thâ— name of the Lord he shall be saved but such Calling presupposeth Believing Hearing Preaching Sending how shall they Preach except they be sent Dub. 'T is evident by the Scriptures both of the Old and New Testament That no man ought to take upon him the Office of a Minister before he has a lawful Call from the Church or can by working Miracles make it appear that he is immediately called from God which is not now to be expected Firm. And 't is as evident from the practise of the Church from the time of the Apostles even to this present age for he that shall peruse her Records shall find that whosoever did presume to take upon himself the office of publick Preaching or Administation of the Sacraments without an extraordinary Call arrested by Miracles or an ordinary one from the Governors of the Church was ever accounted a Theif and a Robber no true Shephard that entred in at the Church door but crept in or climb'd up some other way And hereupon Tertullian complains That in their Heretical Conventicles their Women were bold pratlers they did preach dispute baptize meer Laicks did usurp the Priests office by which means instead of converting Heathens they did pervert Christians St. Hierom also in an Epistle to Paulinus complains That every one did presume to interpret holy Scripture prating old women doting old men Husbandmen Masons Iacks of all trades even as it has been in this divided Nation Trades-men Shoemakers â—oblers Glovers Taylors have skip'd from the Shop to the Pulpit and have left stitching of graments to make a rent in the Church Dub. There is no ingenuous man that is acquainted with the Tenents of Anabaptists and Quakers that will deny that our Sectaries have sharpned their Tools which they have used against us at the Forges of these Philistins Have you any thing else to object aginst these Schismatick practices Firm. Yes The prudential order which is used in all other callings the ablest Lawer Gentleman Soldier muâ—â— not execute the office of a Judge Justice of Peace Commander in war without a Commission a Student in Physick cannot practise without a Linence no man can set up his Trade in a well Governd Corporation untill he has serv'd out his Appâ—entiship and is made a Freeman Such excellent order is observd in Civil affâ—irs but in the great concerns of the Church there should bâ— nothing but confusion if these men might be sufferd to act according to their irrational and extravagant Phansies Dub. 'T is most apparent that their actions are against Scripture the practise of the Cartholick Church and the dictates of reason which no Christian no Sober man will contradict Therefore let us leave this headless Faction and discourse about Presbytery which has the most plausible reasons for its Nonconformity to our Church of any other that do seperate from us DIALOGVE VII Against Presbytery Firm. THe first step you made out of our Church as I have heard was unto Presbyterie I desire to know the reasons why you left our Communion and made choice of theirs Dub. I confess the first step I made out of the Church of England was into the Tents of Presbyterie thence to the Independents and so to the Anabaptists and at last I became little better then an Atheist as I before have declared Thus unhâ—ppy man as I was being out of the true Church I was like Noah's Dove out of the Ark fluttering over the Floods of Eâ—rors and boiâ—terous waves of Shismâ— Factions and Heresies finding no firm land for the sole of my foot to rest upon Firm. This was not your case alone but of many â—n unâ—table soul thâ—t in those laâ—e times of Rebellion confusion Eph. 4. has been blown about with every wind of doctriâ—e by the sleight of men Jesuits Priest and Socintans and their cunning craftinesâ— whereby they havâ— lain in wait to deceive An â—â—ence it was thâ—t the Prophet David's curse fell heâ—vy upon them for they have fallen from one wickedness to another from one wicked opinion to a sâ—â—ond a third c. till at length they have turned Seekers Scepticks Atheists and Scoffers at all Religion Dub. This was once my condition but praised be the Lord who has brought my foot out of the snare I have by his blessing shaked off all those wild and groundless fancies and am more then half perswaded that the Church of England is one of the moâ—t Orthodox Apostolical Churches under the cope of Heaven However for my better confirmation let me hear your answers to those exceptions which the Presbyterians have urged against her goverment by Arch-Bishops Bishops Deans and Chapters her Lyturgie her set Forms of Prayer her Ceremonies her receiving persons of scandalous lives and grosly ignorant in the principles of Religion to the holy Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ. These were the great scandals at which I somtimes stumbled and fell from the Communion of the Church into the Congregation of our Classical Brethren Firm. I shall mosâ— willingly give in my answer to those exceptions in that order you have ranked them Therefore in the first place let me hear what you can object against our Bishops Dub. I have been told They are Antchristian not heard of in the Primitive times Such Plants as our Heavenly Father hath not planted and therefore to be rooted
out Firm. True 't is such dirt has been cast upon that Sacred Order by ignorant and discontented persons such an one was Aerius the first Anti-Episcopal man we read of but this groundless opinion is abundantly confuted by the Testimony of holy Scripture by the practise of the â—niversal Church attested by the general consent of Fathers and Councels as you may see in Dr. Hammond's book against Blondel Dr. Taylor 's treatise of the Divine right of Episcopacy with many others First The Scripture is clean for differrent Orders in the Clergy Our blessed Saviour besides his Seaventy Disciples had his Twelve Apostles which were superior to them as is evident by the chusing of Matthias into the place of Iudas from the example of Timothy and Titus the one a â—ishop of Creet the other of Ephesus by the general consent of Antiquity in those and other Churches In that once famous Church of Rome we have the Catalogue of those Bishops which presided there about Thirty of them suffering Martyrdom for the Testimony of our Lord Jesus What should I mention the Angels of the Seaven Asiatick Churches which by the general consent of the Fâ—thers were the Bishops of those Churches nay St. Hierome himself no good friend to this Order does acknowledg That when Christians began to he divided one being of Paul an other of Cephas to prevent such Schisms there past an vniversal Decree throughout the world Thâ—t Bishops should be setled in every Citty who should govern with the Common Councel of the Bresbyters and that one of the Bresbyters should be elected and set over the rest for taking away the seeds of Schism Dub. I am very well perswaded by what you have said that the Primitive goverment of the Church was by Bishops with the assistance of the Presbyterie who had authority over the Presbyters and were their superiors But I pray you satisfie me in this one thing Why did St. Paul so shâ—rply reprove the Corinthians for not excommunicating the Incestuous Person if they had no authority so to do without a Bishop Firm. This at the first sight seems to be a very smart objection but if we seriously consider the words upon which 't is grounded it has no weight at all The Text that is cited to prove it is 1. Corinth 5.2 Ye are puffed up and have not rather mourned that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you Where the Apostle reproves them for want of humiliation for so soul a sin not for the neglect of Excommunication He that had committed that great sin was to be taken away or cut off from the â—hurch but they themselves could not exclude him but this was to be done by the Spirit of St. Paul verse 3 4. in whom the power of Jurisdiction was originally â—eated there being then no Bishop of Corinth for evident it is that in those Churches where there were no Bishops the Apostles kept the power of Jurisdiction in their own hands until Bishops were setled among them as is manifest in the Churches of Ephesus and Creet Neither can it ever be proved that Bresbyters as such had any Jurisdiction belonging to the publick goverment of the Church but by particular Substitution and Delegation from the Apostles and Bishops and noâ— by virtue of their own Order Dub. I am very well satisfied both from Scripture and the general practise of the Church which is the best Comment on the Text That Episcopacy is an Apostolical Institution and I confess I am much confirm'd in this perswasion by Gods blessing upon our English Bishops and Episcopal men such as Cranmer Ridley Iewel Carlton Abbots Morton Andrews Vsher who of English extraction Hall Laud and Sanderson Hooker Cracanthorp Iackson c. whose profound Learning and Piety has given the greatest wounds to the Church of Rome that ever she received â—rom any Protestant writers and their judicious works have been the strongest sence against Popery Heresie Rebellion and Schism that the Christian world can ever boast of Firm. I much rejoyce that you have so good an opinion of our Bishops and Episcopal men I hope the Authority of these renowned Worthies will weigh much with you in our following discourses We will now if you please proceed to your exceptions against Deans and Chapters you shall find all those Learned men before mentioned and many more your opposites in this your second exception as well as in the former Dub. 'T is probable I shall however that I may receive full satisfaction from you give me leave to propose some doubts and scruples which I have against them As 1. They were not from the Beginning but as it were of yesterday 2. They seem to be very useless serving only to maintain the pride and grandure of many idle drones 3. Many poor Parochial Churches are rob'd of their Tiths and Glebs to maintain such lazy Ministers 4. Their Vicars Choral and Singing-men are many of them of no very commendable conversation have little sense or relish of Religion 5. Their Toning of Prayers their Chore service is like a Latine Masse not understood by the people 6. Their Organs and other Musical Instruments are Levitical utterly unlawful under the Gospel Firm. You may think these are such knots which admit of no easy solution but I shall presently make you understand the contrary First I shall shew you that Cathedrals Deans and Chapters though not under those names were from the beginning of Christianity It is clear from the Acts of the Apostles and the Records of the Church that the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ those spiritual Fishermen cast in their nets where they were like to make the greatest and most advantegious draughts They usually Preached in the most Populous Citys where they established Churches which anon after were called Mother-Churches to which the Suburbican or those that dwelt in the adjacent Villages were subject and with the Mother-Churches made up the Bishops Diocess which they governed as St. Hirome confesses by the common councel and assistance of Presbiters termed at Rome in after times Cardinals or chief Presbiters and in the time of Charles the great as the Magdeburgenses inform us were incorpated into a Colledge under the name of Dem and Chapter the Dean by the Canon-law being called Arch-Presbiter Before the sounding of Universsitys these Cathedrals were the Schools of the Prophets where young Students were train'd up in the Study of Divinity and other good learning Gerard gives us a tast of their first institution their corruption and how they might be restored to their primitive uses I could wish that some learned Person who has the advantage of Books and well Studyed men to consult with and leisure all which we Country Ministers are deprived of would write in the Vindication of Cathedrals and manifest to this invidious age that the institution of Deans and Chapters is very usefull to the Church and very Antient as I
men are apt to express toward the one and their cold disposition toward the other partly because 't is usual to let those things pass carelesly by our ears which we have often heard before or know we may haer again when ever we please and partly for that Sermons are new and fresh and if they slip by us for the present what excellencies soever they contain is lost which creats the grater atteâ—â—ion which causes the greater affections so far that worthy man This certainly is one great reason why set Forms of Prayer are so much undervalued in respect of extemporary and conceiv'd effusions Dub. I am abundantly satisfied that set Forms of Prayer are not only lawfull but very usefull in the Publike Service of the Church I shall now by your good leave descend to those exceptions which are made more particularly against the Liturgie of the Church of England First that 't is taken out of the Masse Book Secondly that it contains many shreds of Prayer which are short and customary wishes rather then serious and devout Prayers Thirdly that it appoints divers Apocryphal Chapters to be publikly read which contain things incredible and ridiculous As for those exceptions which are made against some particular passages in the body of the Liturgy they are so frivolous that they are not worth the trouble of a serious confutation he that pleases may see them sufficiently baffled by Mr Hooker Mr Ball himself a Nonconformist in his tryal of the grounds of Seperation with many others Firm. Your First excepâ—ion is the issue of Spite and Ignorance what though it contains many things that are in the Masse Book as the Creeds the Teâ— Commandments the Lords-Prayer and divers Collects Shall a true man refuse to take his goods and make the best he can of them because he finds them in a Theifs house Or shall the husbandman refuse pure wheat because 't was once mingl'd with chaff and tares albeit 't is now winnoâ—ed and sâ—fted Or shall we refuse Pauls Epistles because there are in them certain savory passages taken out of the writings of Idolatrous Heathens The Church of Rome was once a glorious Church true 't is it s now sadly corrupted yet as corrupt as 't is all is not chaff which that Church retains there remainâ— in her some good wheat which was in her before her novel superstitions were in their Swadling cloaths this wheat wee retain the châ—ff we hâ—ve blown away with a Fan of an orderly Reformation you see what a malicious cavil this is that our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Mâ—ss malice in some and ignorance in others have been the true parents of this groundless calumny 2. As to your Second exception that our Liturgie contains many short cuts and shreads of prayer pray you what do you think of the Publicans Prayer God be mercifull to me a sinner is any prayer in our Liturgie more short then that which our Saviour so well aproved Short ejacuculations concise forms Holy breathings of the Spirit are very frequent in the Scripture and past all peradventure very acceptable to Almighty God those that cavil at the shortness of our prayers and collects let them justify the length of theirs if they can from any one prayer in Scripture or Fathers that is a quater of an hower long Let any rational man who is acquainted with the nature of Prayer and humane infirmities seriously consider â—hether or no our Church has not carried her self very prudently both in the Method Phrase Form and ordering of her Service Are not all her holy Offices the matter and mostly the very words and choiâ—eâ—t portions of holy Scriptures what an unworthy calumny is it to tell the world our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Masse Could any thing be utter'd more fals and invidious those excellent Prayers She uses how are they â—itted to our infirmities mixed with Psalms Hymns and choise portions of Scripture is not this order and method more sutable to the weak capacities and unsteady attentions of the greatest part of the Congregation then a long extemporary Prayer for matter many times Heretical Schismatical Irreverent strangly bold unbeseeming a poor sinful Worme to offer up to the High and Dreadful Majesty of our Great and Good God Dub. I know by my own experience thâ—t long extemporary Prayers are very apt to dull â—nd deâ—den our attentions and I cannot deny but that sometimes I have been very much scandalized both at the matter as also at the un-Scriptural â—hantastical Affected expressions used in such Prayers which is not to be seen in the Common-Prayer Book whose phrase and words are very gravâ— and decent and being taken out of the word of â—od are most fit to be offer'd up to the Almighty God when we speak unto him in Prayer I am fully satisfied with the excellent Method Matter grave Oratory of the English Liturgie being 't is so consonant to and coresponding with the Holy Scripture So that I stand amaz'd at the impudence of those that first gave out that 't was borrowed from the Mass Book and at the dull ignorance of those that will believe so notoâ—ious a Lye The Book I acknowledge to be rarely compos'd and not onely useful in our publick Worship but also a very profitable directory for our Family private devotions Now to the last objection Were it not better that some Apochryphal Chapters were left out of the calender and Canonical Lessons set in their place Firm. Many learned men have indeed thought so and have wished for a change in this particular Mr Hooker has these words Those Ecclesiastical Books for so they were cald in auntient times not Apocryphal under which title were contain'd such Books which the Church allowed not at all to be read in publick I say those Ecclesiastical Books which in case my self did think as some do that 't were more safe and better that they were not to be read at all publikly nevertheless as in other things of like nature so in this I should be loath to oppose my private judgment against the force of their Reverend Authority considering the excellency of some things in all and of all things in certain of those Ecclesiastical Books which we publikly read and therefore I have thought it better to let them stand as a list or a marginal border unto the Old Testament and to grant at the least unto some of them publike audience in the house of God Dub. I do fully acquiess in the pious prudent and peaceable determination of this worthy man and so from the exceptions that are made against the liturgy I desire your discourse may proceed to those which are made against the Ceremonies of the Church 't is superfluous to name them all But only those which are most spoken against the Surplice the Ring in Marriage Bowing at the name of Jesus Kneeling at the Sacrament and especially the Cross in Baptisme which are said to be Popish and superstitions