Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	church_n	infallible_a	interpretation_n	3,557	5	10.7106	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33205	An answer to the representer's reflections upon the state and view of the controversy with a reply to the vindicator's full answer, shewing, that the vindicator has utterly ruined the new design of expounding and representing popery.	Clagett, William, 1646-1688.; Clagett, Nicholas, 1654-1727.	1688 (1688)	Wing C4376; ESTC R11070	85,324	142

the Representer has made for us One thing I am sure of that the Converts of the City of Orange were received upon such easy terms in point of Declaration that if Subjection and Communion had not been to follow one would have look'd upon the whole Transaction as a solemn Jest between the French General and the Bishop of Orange on the one side and the Citizens of Orange on the other The Passage is very remarkable and instructing and therefore I shall not think much to set down the Articles of Reconciliation as I have received them from hands of unquestionable credit 1. The Citizens of the Town of Orange that are under written considering that it is the Will of God of which Kings are the principal Interpreters that all Christians should reunite themselves into the same Church To testify their submission to the Order of the Divine Providence and that which they bear to the Holy Intentions of the King do intreat of his Majesty that his Troops commanded by the Count de Tessé should depart from them and that the Expence which has been or shall be made by them be levied upon the whole State without distinction of Religion We Order the Execution of the present Article according to the full Tenor of it Tessé 2. They declare that they do reunite themselves to the Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church after the manner which that Church do's use to believe and to profess all the Christian and Orthodox Truths contained in the Holy Scripture which God hath manifested to the Prophets Apostles and Evangelists following the Interpretation and Sense of the Universal Church and renouncing all Errors and Heresies contrary thereunto 3. That for their great Consolation and Edification every Sunday before the Service there shall be read a Chapter of the Holy Scripture of the Old and New Testament in French according to the Translations approved by the Church and that all the Divine Service which is performed in Latin shall be explained in French by the Pastors of the Church 4. That they shall invoke no other besides God the Father Son and Holy Ghost 5. That they shall not believe that it is necessary to Salvation to have any other Intercession and Mediation than that of our Lord Jesus Christ towards God the Father 6. That they shall not be obliged to render any Divine Honour to Images which shall be in the Church 7. That they shall adore Jesus Christ in the Eucharist who is Really Spiritually and Sacramentally contain'd in that Adorable Sacrament 8. That this Consolation shall be given to the Faithful that they shall communicate in both Kinds if the Universal Church shall think it convenient Done at Orange the 11th of Nov. 1685. We James d' Obeilh by the Grace of God Bishop of Orange Abbot and Count of Montfor Counsellor of the King in all his Councils have admitted these who are countersigned to the Reunion of the Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church upon the Conditions expressed in the Eight Articles above written Done at Orange this 13th of Novemb. 1685. John James Bishop of Orange The Representer may I think see in this Example that he is out-done in his own way and that there are in the World more mild and inoffensive Representations of Popery than his own and some provisions for saving the Consciences of the Reformed which himself has not made But I would know of him whether he do's believe that those who united themselves to the Roman Church with these Cautions can be reasonably judged to have proceeded with satisfaction in themselves and about what they did Or rather whether there be not all the Signs that one can have in a thing of this Nature that being distressed between a troublesome Conscience on the one Hand and Count Tessés Troops on the other they capitulated as well as they could for their own quiet and granted what they did to be delivered from the Souldiers and no more than what they did if by that means they might pacify their own Minds A very miserable Case most certainly And that which is yet more to be lamented is that these things should be done by Christians upon Christians Let the Representer take it into his serious Consideration and I believe it will be one of those things that he will always forget to put into the Character of his Papist Represented But why must the Minds of Men be racked in this manner Why must they be brought under the most dangerous Temptations to cheat themselves and for the gaining of rest from outward Miseries to betray the Tranquillity of their own Consciences and be constrained to play such Tricks with them as if one Man should chuse to put upon another he would be accounted no better than a cunning Knave He that cannot see the true Reason of this unmerciful dealing and that too by this very Example can see but little It is Vnion that is to say Submission to what they call the Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church that must be by these means or by any means carried on This we meet with at the very head of the Provisions and again at the foot of them in the Bishop's Certificate Nor are any of the Reformed to expect otherwise but that this shall be expresly insisted on But because the poor People knew that Union to that Church carried dreadful Things along with it therefore they strugled and it seems they gained one of the prittiest Limitations of that Vnion that ever was heard of viz. To believe and to profess all the Christian and Orthodox Truths contained in the Holy Scripture which God hath manifested to the Prophets Apostles and Evangelists But then this Limitation would make the Vnion very insignificant for thus one may be united to the Turk viz. to believe and to profess all the Christian and Orthodox Truths contained in the Holy Scripture And therefore something must be added to that and certainly greater Artifice on both sides shall seldom be seen than what is shewn in putting in these words after the manner which that Church dos use which may indifferently refer either to reuniting or believing The People may understand it of being united to the Roman Church after the manner it uses till the Bishop teaches them to understand it of believing the Christian Truths of the Scripture after the manner of that Church And so by understanding the Scripture after the Interpretation and Sense of the Vniversal Church the Bishop has his meaning and they have theirs as long as he will suffer them The most jealous Princes never treated more nicely for their Honour than these poor Protestants did for their Conscience and their Masters for the Church of Rome And considering that they had but two hours allowed them to unite to the Roman Church before the last Extremity should be used upon refusal and that there were Difficulties on both Sides the Protestants consulted for their Consciences as much as it was possible for Men to do

Images respect is paid to the Persons whom they represent but Images themselves are not to be worshipped No God forbid but only used to put us in mind of the Original Thus they explicate the Language i. e. give us the Sense of their Church in her Decisions of Faith But so I dare say as it was never explicated before However if these Gentlemen believe the Sense of the Council to be as they say I wonder how it comes to pass that the Vindicator should not acknowledge it to be Popery For he must not forget that Popery is the Sense of the Church which she delivers by her Voice in Councils and therefore that the Sense of the Councils Words it truly Popery And consequently what He and His Party take to be their Sense they must in spite of their Hearts confess to be their Popery unless they care not how inconsistently they talk And then I would ask the Vindicator whether it be possible to reconcile his and the Bishops Sence with Cardinal Capisucchi's and those of his way The Truth is the Vindicator has given up the Cause for by saying that we bring only the private Sentiments of Men which other Members of the same Church condemn he confesses that they do in these things condemn one another Which perfectly acquits us from the charge of misrepresenting them when we say that there are two sorts of Popery amongst them by which we never meant any thing else than that one Party of them and that the greater does earnestly contend that that is Popery which the other utterly disclaims and does therefore set up another Sense of their Councils and their publick Offices opposite to that of the former As for his calling the Sentiments of the opposite Party Private Sentiments If he means that they keep their Persuasions to themselves and do not trouble the Church with them He is to know that as the Men are not private but of great Note and Authority in the R. Church and the number of their Followers far more considerable than of theirs who condemn them so their Sentiments are not private neither but as publick as Disputing for them and censuring and punishing their Opposers can make them But if I can understand him by private Sentiments he means the Sentiments of Men out of Council so that no measure is to be taken of the Doctrine of their Church by what is delivered by such Men tho they be Bishops or Cardinals and their number never so great and their Declarations never so publick and notorious and their Censures never so sharp against those that oppose them for still they are but the private Sentiments of Men out of Council Why then must the Representers or the Vindicators or even his Lordship the Bishop of Meaux's Sentiments concerning the Doctrine of the Church go for any other than the private Sentiments of Men For their Expositions have been neither made nor approved in General Councils Must Cardinal Capisucchi the Archbishop of Bourdeaux and Father Crasset with his Holy Bishops and Learned Doctors nay and with the Learned of all Nations be said to deliver only the Sentiments of private men whilest a few Teachers that arose in this Age whose Party is despicable who labour under the marks of Insincerity whose Doctrine being professed in good earnest is persecuted by that Church whose Faith it is said to be whilst those Men I say must be thought to deliver the True and Genuine Doctrine of the Church But if neither the one side nor the other side delivers the Sense of the Church Who knows what the Sense of the Church is and how shall I come by it The Vindicator directs me to the Express Words of General and Approved Councils But then I must needs ask him Who is to be Judge of the Sense of those express Words I see express Words indeed and I am very apt to think that I do understand the Sense of plain and express Words But if I may be allowed to understand express Words why can I not as well understand such Words in the Scriptures as in their Councils For the Words of the Scripture seem to me to be very expresly against many things that are held in the Church of Rome And here I have been told that this is not the Sense of the Scripture but my private Sense that the Scripture is a Dead Letter till the Churches Interpretation gives it Life and Sense that private Judgment is Fallible and therefore not to be relied upon that the same places seem to be express to one Man for this thing and to another Man for that thing that so many private Heads as there are so many Bibles there will be that after all our assurance that we understand plain and express Texts of Scripture there is no certainty to be had but by submitting to Authority and receiving Doctrines of Faith not from the Scripture but from the Church Well I submit to the Church and ask Where or by whom she delivers her Sence concerning Doctrines of Faith Ans By her Voice in her General and Approved Councils But where is that Voice to be heard Ans In the express Words of those Councils I go therefore to those Councils God help them that can't Here indeed I find express Words if a Man could but tell how to come to the Sense of them for I thought my self very sure of the meaning of express Words of Scripture But it seems I was mistaken then What assurance have I that I am not mistaken now For express Words are but as express Words in the Councils as they are in the Scriptures And if my Sence of such Words in the Scripture was but a private Sence before my Sence also of such Words in the Councils is no more now And therefore if I must trust to my own private Sence I shall be sorely tempted to go back again and to make as good a shift as I can with my private Sence and the Scriptures together rather than follow those who tell me my private Sence is not to be trusted and yet leave me to it at last For when all is done the Churches Sence according to this Man is a mere Notion of a thing that is no where to be found for the several Sences of her Words in Council are but the Sentiments of private Men which this Man opposes to the Sence of the Church to save his Church from two Poperies For instance if I go to Cardinal Capisucchi and his Party to ask them what the Churches Sence is of that due Honour and Veneration that is to be given to Holy Images they tell me the very same that is given to the Persons represented by them But what am I the nearer for this is but the Sentiment of private Men. I go to ask the Bishop of Meaux and his Party and they cry God forbid the Church requires no such thing But I conceive his Sentiment is as private as the Cardinals and so

is every bodies else that I can speak to and which is worst of all I must not judge between these different Parties which of them speaks the Churches Sence because I am that way Infallibly thrown upon my own Sentiments which are as private as can be In this State there being no Council sitting I have no living Judge upon Earth to help me and I am sure I must not be a living Judge for my self so that I have no Oracle to go to but a few Dead Letters which cannot speak and I have no reason to expect whilst I am doubting whether the Words mean Capisucchi's or De Meaux's Sence that the Letters should disappear and other Letters rise in the room of them and make Words plain enough to end the Dispute And therefore I think we must do as the Vindicator gives leave and suspend our Judgment at least till the sitting of the next General and Approved Council that shall be called to interpret the last Tho I do not see how that could end the Controversie because the Words of that Council too must be interpreted by private Sence and so to the Worlds end till Councils have found out a way to determine Controversies of Faith without any Words at all There is I confess one way left to come to a certainty of the Churches Sence if we had it and but one and that is for every Body to be Infallible for by the same reason that they would take us off from the Scriptures we have not any security by Councils unless we had an infallible Spirit to interpret and then I fancy there would be no need of Councils at all for an Infallible way of interpreting the Scriptures will excuse any Mans dependence upon Councils that has it Now after these Men have vilified the private use of the Scriptures and have in effect made nothing of them for this Child of the Church to come now at last in his distress and make as little of General Councils is a just Infatuation upon him Who does not see that to get off the two Poperies which are so notorious he will allow nothing to be Popery but the very express Words of their Councils which indeed have a Sence that this Man calls the Churches Sence but then you are to ask no body what that Sence is For whoever he is that you ask he gives you but his own Sence or his private Sentiment And at this rate I confess it will be impossible to find out two Poperies in the Church because Popery is nothing but the Churches Sence But then you will not be able to find so much as One Popery in the Church and that it may be the Vindicator never thought of For whilst every body gives his own Sence to the Words of the Council as they say every one of us does to the Words of the Scripture indeed no Man can be certain that the Churches Sence is not reached by any of the private Sentiments of Men but who has had the good luck to reach it the Lord knows for 't is a Happiness which no Man that has it can certainly say that he has And therefore by that Trick which serves him to keep two Poperies out of the Church he has unawares thrown out all Popery excepting that dead Popery that lies buried in the Words of General and approved Councils Thus speaking of that which we Term Old Popery and his Parties condemning it he says Pag. 6. So long as there is such a Dispute betwixt them whom the Church acknowledges to be her Children and she does not determine it any one may hold which side they please as an Opinion or suspend their Judgment but neither side is truly what you ought to mean by Popery So that 't is neither Popery to worship Images with the same Worship that is due to what they represent nor is it Popery to worship them with a Worship that is not the same nor is it Popery to worship them as it were not at all And therefore the Children of the Church may hold which side they please as an Opinion they may with Cardinal Capisucchi be of the opinion that M. de Meaux's Doctrine concerning due Honour and Veneration savours of Heresie and they may with M. de Meaux be of the Opinion that Capisucchi's Doctrine savours of Idolatry And they that are of the former Opinion may yet with the Cardinal approve the Bishops Exposition and they that are of the later Opinion may with the Bishop say That the Cardinal in his Treatise about Images had said nothing in the whole that contradicteth the Bishop In short we may take Due Honour and Veneration in this Sense or in that Sense or in any Sense wherein any of the Children of the Church understand it or if you please no Sense whatsoever For you may suspend your Judgment And if the Vindicator be in the right that what he has said in this case is applicable to all others Protestants without believing one Doctrine of Faith more than they do already may be said to have as much Doctrinal Popery as the Members of the Romish Church it self I would have the Vindicator think of these things and before he sends us again to the express Words of his General Councils to consider how his Friends have used the Scriptures and us for making them the Rule of our Faith. We do not pretend to find in express Words of their General Councils every thing which we call Old Popery but we find it in the Profession of the prevailing Part even of the present Roman Church and in its oppressing those that seem in good earnest to be of another mind And as we may without blame call that Popery or the Sense of their Church which themselves call so so we cannot be reproved for saying that their Popery seems to be the true and genuine Popery because it agrees vastly better with the express Words of their Councils than the Popery of our modern Expositors and Representers But yet for calling this Popery the Vindicator calls the Defender a Misrepresenter Pag. 6 7. a Misrepresenter and a Calumniator too a Misrepresenter a Falsifier and a Calumniator Thus he lays about him without Fear or Wit and hurts himself more than his Adversary For his bad Language does furnish me with a Proof that there are Two Poperies amongst them which the dullest Apprehension will feel and the finest shall not be able to distinguish away To take the Vindicator's Instance once more Here in England I make bold to say that worshipping Images and Crucifixes with the same Worship that is due to the Persons represented is Popery And for this by an Authentic Papist I am called a Misrepresenter a Falsifier and a Calumniator too Which are hard Words and I would not willingly deserve them I would therefore know what is the sincere Popery in this case and I am told That Images are not properly to be worshipped but the Persons represented