Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
Church is the pillar of truth whosoeuer doth separate himselfe from the Church doth depart from the truth And by this we do still proue that you are all heretickes and scismatikes and do peruert the scriptures because you take them not as the Church doth expound them The scriptures seeme to be on your side but they are not they seeme to be against vs but they are not Pro. This is very sound stuffe you make three strong conclusions out of three sentences of the scriptures In the first ye reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore none can vnderstand the scriptures but the learned by this your meaning is to shut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine and to allow vnderstanding of the scriptures to none but the learned that is the Clergie of Rome for that we shal haue by and by But ye ouershoote your selfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men doth meane such as haue not bin brought vp in schoole learning and so put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie No he counteth all those learned which are taught of God both of the common sort of people and other all those are vnlearned which are not taught of God although otherwise they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts or whatsoeuer Such as haue learned Christ Iesus and him crucified and so are become new creatures in Christ they are learned Col. 2. For in him are all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge He that hath not learned Christ he is vnlearned If he be not new borne but as S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 3. cōmitteth sin he hath not séene him nor knowne him although otherwise he be neuer so studied a mā in the scriptures Math. 11. For this cause we see that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wisedome because they imbraced the doctrine of Christ when the great Doctors the Scribes and Pharisies were starke blind They sayd none followed Christ but the multitude which knew not the law Iohn 7. which were accursed when as indeede they were blind and accursed themselues so fareth it now with the Pope and his shauelings they say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures when themselues do not The next sentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter also where hee saith No scripture is of priuate interpretation From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vs may interprete but Rome onely No priuate man is to interprete the scriptures because no scripture is of priuate interpretation all those which are not of the Popish Cleargie or which haue not authority in the Church from the Pope or do not expound as the Church are priuate men therfore none of those are to interprete the scriptures Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will haue all to himselfe But ye deale deceiptfully or at the least vnskilfully with the text which ye alleadge for Saint Peter when he saith priuate doth not speake it to make this difference betweene men as though for interpreting the scriptures some shold haue authority some should be priuate but he setteth men against God calling that priuate which is of man For he doth reason thus the scripture was not giuen by the will of man but by the spirite of God therefore the interpretation thereof must bee of God men must not bring that which is their owne If the interpretation be by the spirit then is it not priuate if it be out of mans braine although it should be the Pope al his Cardinals yea ten thousand Popes it is still priuate after the sense in which S. Peter doth call priuate For let any skilful man in the greeke tongue looke vpon the word which is idias epiluseos and he will confesse that it doth signifie that which is ones owne Then the sense is plaine and it is also manifest how peeuishly you peruert the word of God What manner of argument is this a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne therfore none may interprete them but the Church of Rome Your last reason is not worth answering for although it is most true that the Church is the pillar of truth that those are voyd of truth which abide not in the Church yet this is as false that the Pope his company are the Church of Christ as the other is true and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schismatikes for departing from you which are a den of theeues which haue conspired against the truth Pa. Two grosse things and strange I gather out of your words the one that you would haue the people of themselues to iudge of doctrine the other ye will haue no other interpreter of the sense of the Scriptures but the Spirit I pray ye I am an vnlearned man would faine know which is the truth I heare you alleadge the scriptures in one sense and you say you haue the spirit our men alleadge them in another sense and say they haue the spirit the Anabaptists they haue the spirite the Arrians they interprete by the spirit what shal I do here is euery man hath the spirit yet euery one goeth a contrary way It is manifest therefore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vnto or else the simple man cannot tell which way to turne him What shall he do now but looke how the Church beleeueth and rest in that For he must haue that which may teach him to know which of all these hath the true spirit or else he is neuer the neerer Pro. Ye find two grosse things in my words one of them is that I say the people can iudge of doctrine when it is preached What doth our Sauior Christ meane when he saith Iohn 10. My sheep heare my voyce a stranger they wil not heare they flie frō strangers Cā they know the voice of the true shepheard from the false can they not discerne doctrine The other is that I will haue none other interpreter of the sense of the scriptures but the spirit 1. Cor. 2. S. Paul saith the eare hath not heard nor the eye hath not seene neither came into mans hart the things which God hath prepared for them that loue him but God hath reuealed them vnto vs by his spirite for the spirite searcheth all things yea the deepe things of God And the great doubt which you put forth in the simple man which would faine vnderstand the truth and which of all those foure that ye named haue the spirit I answer that if he himselfe haue not the spirite of God to teach him he shall not be able to iudge but if the spirite do teach him then can he find it for the spirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine which is his doth teach the other to know that doctrine and in them consenteth vnto it being his owne and therefore
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
meaning thereof from your Church and although we haue the most cleare testimonies of the Scriptures against you yet ye set light thereby and all because your Church cannot erre and you expound them otherwise Therefore there is by your doctrine no rule left for a man to build his faith vppon but the exposition of the gouernours in the Church Aunswere me directly vnto this were there not false Prophetes in olde time among the people of the Iewes Pa. The Scripture doth shew that there were somtime a great number at once and the Church of God did euer condemne them Pro. But tell me how did the people know who were the true Prophets and who were the false the one side commeth and they say thus saith the Lord no saith the other side that is false thus saith the Lord quite contrary to the other and not only at some times a multitude of false Prophets against one true seruant of God but also the high Priestes and other Priests and gouernours in the Church taking part with them against the true Prophet Where was then your golden rule which ye would haue the common sort to measure their faith by I beleeue as the Church beleeueth I cannot iudge I must not meddle with the meaning of the Scriptures Pa. Proue this which you haue sayd it is an easie matter to affirme and you are ready to doe that but your proofes come slowly Can you shew that the high Priests and gouernours in the Temple did ioyne with the false prophets against the true Prophet Pro. They come a little faster then you would gladly haue them or else you would not be so calme if there were but a little matter of colour against vs for want of proofe you would set vp your bristles by and by and you would crowe but when the matter brought out doth choke ye then ye say there is nothing brought ye bid me proue that whē there were false Prophets and that sundry against one they had the Priests and rulers of the Church on their side Reade Ieremias the Prophet ye shall find the false Prophets against him and the Priests also and euen as you say against Luther and other which imbrace the holy Gospell they be heretikes the Pope cannot erre so say they for themselues against Ieremias Iere. 18. come let vs imagine some deuise against him for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor the counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophete Were the godly people now which forsooke the Priests Iere. 1. Princes and Prophets and gaue eare to Ieremias apostats Did not the Lord tell him at the first when he sent him that he should haue the people the Priests and Princes against him Also ye may see it very fully and plainely expressed Iere. 20. that Pashur the Priest which was appointed chiefe in the house of God did smite Ieremias and put him in the stockes when hee heard him prophesie here was a right Pope a stoute Bishop that durst set Gods Prophet in the stockes This thing is set foorth in sundry places of the Prophets how the Priests the false Prophetes were linked together against the true messengers of the Lord. For ye may see how the Priests and Prophets and people lay hold on Ieremias Iere. 26. and would haue put him to death for the Priests Prophets accused Ieremias before the Princes that hee was worthy of death Eze. 22. The Prophet Ezechiel also complaineth grieuously of the Priestes and the Prophets Also long before the time of Ieremias Ezechiel the Lord complayned of the Priestes and Prophetes for their wickednesse For thus he saith by Mica Mica 3. the Princes iudge for bribes the Priests teach for reward and the Prophets do prophesie for money Behold also what God complaineth against the Priests and Prophetes euen in the dayes of the most godly king Iosia as ye may reade in the Prophet Sophanie Sopha 3. Likewise where the holy Ghost sheweth the cause of the great destruction which came vpon Hierusalem 2. Chro. 36 he saith that al the chiefe Priests and people committed many transgressions according to all the abhominations of the heathen and defiled the house of God which he had sanctified in Hierusalem how God sent vnto them his Prophetes but they would not heare them See then if the wickednesse of the Priests draw the Lord out of his Temple vnto which he had made so glorious promises and which he had chosen to be the place where he would be worshipped shall we now tie him to that chaire from which there haue come the most horrible villanies against God almost that euer were committed in the world shall we say that the most pure most holy God hath fastened himselfe to the mother of whoredomes and abominations Pa. Ye take great paines to small profit for a man may in a word ouerthrow all that you haue built ye haue shewed how the Priestes and gouernours in the Temple did corrupt their wayes and ioyned with the false Prophetes against the true messengers of the Lord. You gather out of this that there was no rule left in the Church for the people to trie the worship and seruice of God by but this conclusion of yours doth not follow because the corruption of maners and withstanding the true Prophets did not hinder but that they remayned still the Church and the worship appointed in the Temple was not to be despised for if any did forsake it they were indeed Apostats for whē they were euen at the worst Christ sendeth such as he had cleansed of the leprosie to shew themselues to the Priest and to offer the gift which Moses had commanded This must needes be so for otherwise how should that saying of Christ Math. 18. dic ecclesiae tell the Church be a perpetuall rule to all the people if there be once no Church visible to tell that cause vnto where is then the doctrine and precept of Christ Here therefore I say still ye be heretikes and apostats insomuch as ye haue departed frō the holy mother the Church ye haue forsaken the fellowship of the faithfull that which ye pretend the abuses of the Church is no excuse at all for will ye forsake your mother because she wanteth perfect beauty or because there is some deformity in her the abuses are to be reformed the thing must not be destroyed I would wish ye therfore to returne and to submit your selues againe and not to cast away your soules for ye be all damned heretickes which be out of the Church Pro. The breath of your mouth is very strong when as with one blast ye are able to ouerthrow whatsoeuer a man can bring out of the word of God But ye deceiue your selfe greatly for Gods truth will stand when you shall fall Your poore and silly shifts wil stand ye in no steed you make your reason after this maner when the Priests were
most corrupt either in maners or withstanding the true Prophets yet they remayned still the Church and the seruice and worship in the Temple was not to be despised if any did they were apostats This ye confirme by such as Christ hauing cleansed he sendeth to offer to the priests then by a perpetual rule which Christ gaue dic ecclesiae tel the Church Hereupō ye cōclude again that we be heretikes because we haue forsakē the Church of Rome where ye tel vs that the abuses shold not driue vs to do so we must not forsake our mother for some deformity and want of beauty I wil answer ye that this argument may easily be denied when you say those which did forsake the worship in the Temple were Apostats therefore those which forsake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apostats for to make this hold you must first proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome as he had then to the Temple and that he hath chosen Rome as he then chose mount Sion which ye shall neuer be able to do because it is most false And then ye must proue that your worship which you maintaine is that which God hath commanded and then doubtlesse hee that shall depart from that is an heretike For if any did depart from worshipping in the Temple hee was not an apostat for departing from wicked Priests but for refusing that which God had appointed him to do We depart not but from a den of theeues and from an heape of damnable errors and not from that which God hath commanded so Christ sendeth the Leapers which he had clensed to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moses which was to be done to be done no where but in the Temple where the Priests bare the sway The other reason which ye bring as a perpetuall rule of Christ dic ecclesiae tell the Church is of no value for although the rule be perpetual doth it therfore follow that it can alwayes bee put in practise Hath Christ by that rule where he saith if thy brother offend against thee reproue him if that do not serue take one or two with thee if he will not heare them tell the Church c. set downe that there shall be euer a true and visible Church which will correct the offenders How say ye to the Church of Israel in the dayes of the Prophet Elias 1. King 19. when he complained to God that they had killed his Prophets digged downe his Altars and that he only was left they sought his life God made him answere that he had a Church among them I haue left vnto me seuen thousand in Israel c. which Elias did not sée Where was Dic ecclesiae now become Must they bring their Dic ecclesiae to those which are fallen away from God will excōmunicate the children of God Iohn 9. as the Pharisies did the blind man Did he euer come vnto them to be absolued When your diuellish sinagogue do excommunicate vs we be the nigher vnto Christ It is true which ye say that the true Church must not be forsaken for certaine abuses but if the abuses be such as vtterly destroy the faith as yours are then is it no longer the Church of Christ but a company of wicked hell hounds and therefore ye do but loose your labour when you exhort vs to rerurne to your Church which is no mother of ours but she is the whore of Babylon which hath filled the earth with her fornications There are none blessed vnlesse they depart from her her wayes are the wayes of damnation Reuel 18. come out of Babylon sayth the Angell of our God Pa. I could answer ye againe with words but so I should but spend time neither doe I like of long circumstances without matter which is the fashion of you heretikes when ye haue no sound reasons then to make a shew of speech and fall to rayling Pro. You cannot abide words without matter neither can your meeke spirite tell which way to fall to rayling but let any indifferent man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors set forth and he will confesse that in many words there will be found little matter Take away your vntruthes slaunders and spitefull raylings there will be but a little left behind If we speake of you that which the Scriptures pronounce against you by and by we rayle Did Iohn Baptist rayle when he called the Pharisies Math. 3. The generation of Vipers But seeing ye ione matter let vs see it to proue our doctrine to be new ye must bring stronger reasons then that the Church of Rome for certaine hundred yeares hath not allowed it there is no point of our faith but it is farre more auncient then your popish decrees your bauld and doltish shift to driue vs onely to your exposition of the Scriptures is not worth a straw Gods holy spirit hath bestowed great gifts vpon his Church in these last dayes Proceed with your matter Pa. Nay you shall not so slylie conuey your selfe ye make smal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apostles Your exposition of the word began of late in Germany and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike Pro. Seeing ye must needes lie it is good to lie for somewhat all holy Doctors and Teachers from the Apostles are on your side this all doth signifie none For the very truth is as euery man that can reade their writings may see that they be except in a very few points all against ye sauing such holy diuels as within these latter times haue bene the Popes owne Doctors Our exposition is the same which the godly fathers before Antichrist had gotten the vpper seate in the Temple did vse therefore Catholike although your mother disallow it Pa. Nay heretickes be liers we say the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our side we succeede them we honour loue and commend them more then you we pray for their helpe you seeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them let all the world be iudge whose side they are like to be of ours or yours when we haue them in so great and high estimation and you set so light by them Can we bee fallen from them as you say being so readie to doe them all the homage we can our hearts do witnesse that we do it in simplicity Moreouer all your matter is not worth a straw which ye haue brought out of the Church of the Iewes ye haue shewed that in Israel Elias could see no Church that in the Temple the Priests and false Prophets did conspire against the true messengers of the Lord. This were somewhat if you could shew it in our Church vnto which Christ hath made his promise neuer to forsake it but to giue it his spirite
not giue you ouer for as you haue vttered your slaunders against the Gospell of Christ so you must giue me leaue to lay open some of those abominations which you are iustly to be charged withall Pa. It is no matter what ye say I doubt not but that I shall be able to defend our holy Mother from all your spitefull accusations Say the worst ye can Pro. When I haue said the worst that I can I shall yet come short of the matter For what tongue is able to expresse the full wickednesse of Babylon the mother of whoredomes and abominations which did in pride lift vp her selfe against God and his trueth and made all nations drunken with the wine of her fornication Pa. I tell ye this is but to raile and slander vnlesse ye be able to make proofe of that which ye say but I looke for no such thing at your hands for your sect is wont to accuse deepely and to proue slenderly Pro. I mind to say nothing but that which I will proue and that more strongly then wil be to your liking Your dealing is manifest to all men and your euill meaning may soone be espied vnlesse men will be wilfully blind Are ye not like vnto whores and théeues other malefactors which put out the light and seeke darknesse to couer them that they may not be séene when they commit euill What is your purpose when ye remoue the word of GOD from the sight of the people and doe as it were bury it in a strange tongue Is it not the light to guide our steps Psal 119. Is it not the foode of our soules What is your intent that ye would not haue the people know it Pa. I see there is nothing so honestly done but euill men will suspect it as you compare our doings with whores and theeues because wee allow not the people to reade the scriptures in a knowne tongue But I answere that yee may keepe your comparison to your selfe for our wise ancestors did not take the scriptures from the lay people of any euill intent but because the common people did abuse them and gather errors out of them It is a very dangerous thing for vnlearned men to meddle with or to reade the scriptures they bee darke and hard to be vnderstood euery man can not gather the true sense of them You are fooles and therefore ye are not able to iudge of the wisedome of the fathers in our Church you take that to be amisse which is done most excellently Pro. We are ouer suspicious for your intent is good your honestie is such that ye may be trusted in the darke ye are shamefull honest men indeede We are but fooles and not able to discerne with what wisedome such things are done Surely wee can no skill of that wisedome when men take vpon them to be wiser then GOD. But let vs see the wisedome and good meaning in this thing This it is the common people will abuse the Scriptures and gather errors out of them and therfore a dangerous case for thē to meddle therewith the Scriptures are darke they bee not able to gather the sense I know this is a great déepe point of wisedome among those which sauour the things of men Matth. 16. and not the things of God But trie it and it shall appeare to be extreme follie and those which approue thereof are very doltish asses although for worldly wit they haue déepe heads and excell a number of other men For looke how a cunning artificer when he steppeth out of his owne shop and medleth with a science beyond his reach is no body euen so the wisedome of the world when it will be so busie as to controule the wisedome of God disgraceth her selfe God is here checked for giuing such a word it is better to remoue it away errors errors doe spring by it It is hard to bée vnderstood God might haue dealth more plainly O ye blasphemous wretches what will ye charge God and his holie word withall hath he in such wise declared his blessed will to men that it were better they were without it Haue the sacred Scriptures so little profit in them that they bee better vnknowne then knowne Moreouer see how ye reason men doe abuse the Scriptures and gather errors of them therefore they are to bee remoued This reason is the like men abuse meate and drinke and become drunkards and gluttons therefore it were good to make a law to debarre them those things The bodie cannot liue without meate and drinke the soule can not be saued without the word Some doe abuse meate and drinke shall therefore all bée debarred Some doe peruert the worde to their destruction shall all other therefore bee depriued and want the most necessarie vse thereof No this is but a craft which yée vse to make men afraid to search the Scriptures least they should espie you for there euerie man may easily learne to iudge of your dealings You know well enough that when the people come to know the will of God which you are loth they should then they little estéeme your will Ignorance is the strongest pillar of your religion and as you terme it the mother of deuotion For so soone as men haue a litle knowledge of God their zeale towards you is quenched when they see once the true treasure they will no more of your trash In déed I cannot blame ye that ye labour to put out the light and to hold men stil in darknes because the light will vncouer your shame Pa. VVhen should wee come to an end if I should answere all your words You confesse that some do abuse the word gather errors out of it I suppose then that euery wise man will grant it were better for these that the Scriptures were taken from them And who can tell which they be vntill it bee too late VVere it not better to worke the surer way so that no one may fall into that danger You care not as it seemeth for the losse of a few soules but the price of the soule is so great that ye should be carefull if it were but for one Moreouer we do not remoue the word away but from those which are vnmeete to deale with it we doe not say it were better vnknowne thē knowne but to such as will abuse their knowledge In good sooth me thinketh ye ouershoote your selfe greatly very reason doth leade a man to see that it is not a seemely nor fit thing for Tom carter when he hath laid downe his whip to take vp the bible Let him meddle with that which he can skill of and leaue the Scriptures to such as haue learning to iudge of them Pro. I would be very loth to kéepe ye companie vntill ye should answere all my words the time will bee so long that if ye should fast vntill ye had done the Pope néede not inioyne ye any further penance A very clarklike reason ye make out of
he is God is there any other there which beareth this likenes Peraduēture ye wil say this was fulfilled in some of the Emperors which would be taken for God Yea sir but there was none of the wicked Emperors which did sit in the tēple of God Neither was there any of them which did seduce the world by lying wonders Wée must find such an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings Emperors which sitteth in the Temple of God seduceth by myracles But perhaps he shall arise at Rome hereafter and is not yet come Surely then let vs neuer looke for him if we think there shal arise one at Rome which shall bee lifted vp higher then the Pope or doe more fained myracles and lying wonders then he hath Moreouer tell me this is there any man so simple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation Reuel 17. where the Angel doth shew the mistery of the woman which he calleth the great whore and of the beast which beareth her that wil not by by confesse that séeing Rome is that whore borne vp with the scarlet coloured beast with seuen heads the Pope also must néeds be Antichrist for he is one of the heads of the beast The heads of the beast being seuen are saith the Angel seuen Kings where should they reign At Rome Fiue saith he are fallen one is another is to come Seuen kinds of gouernmēts in Rome whereof it is wel knowen fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote One was thē standing which was the Empire And the seuenth or last should shortly follow Where is he that hath risen at Rome to be the seuenth last of these kings if it be not the Pope O ye foolish Papists haue ye come thus far as to cōfesse that Rome is Babylon which is the great whore so tel men where they must séek for Antichrist And wil ye denie the Pope to be the beast Why they be ioined together Shew vs some other vpon whō we may sée the brand which the scripture hath set vpon Antichrist We now by that which you haue granted and confessed must not looke for him elswhere but at Rome vntill ye can shew vs some other there we sée none so like him as the Popes holines If ye can shew any other put men out of doubt Pa. Doth the Scripture say that Antichrist should bee at that place which is called Babylon Where find ye any such thing It was called Babylon for the great wickednes of the citie not because Antichrist should reigne there Againe where yee take the interpretation of seuen heads to be seuen kings in Rome as you say seuen kinds of gouernment fiue were fallen one was which is the Empyre one was to come which say you must needs be the Pope for hee hath reigned in the last place Yea but ye sayd fiue were fallen to giue place to the sixt should not then the sixt also fall to giue place to the seuenth How then is your interpretation true seeing the Empire hath stood euer since Pro. Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel set forth the same Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe which he calleth the beast which all the world should wonder after and worship Doth he not set forth the whore sitting vpon the beast Is not the whore by you confessed to be Rome will ye haue the beast to beare her and not to be at the same place the beast that riseth out of the bottomles pit and killeth the saints Reuel 11. Where shal their bodies lie in the stréets doth he not say in the stréets of the great citie which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt afterward in the seuentéenth chapt he calleth it the great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth is it not all one beast which he speaketh of al one citie doth it not follow that where he shall kill there be shal raigne and as for the other thing which ye take exception against I confesse the Empire did still retaine the name and was not quite cast down neuertheles it was not indéede an empire when the Emperors themselues were brought downe so farre in subiection to the Pope as to haue him tread in their necke and to hold his stirrops Pa. If the Pope were Antichrist as you would make men beleeue then what became of the Church all that while when men beleeued in him when he raigned you confesse a thousand yeres or there about since the Bishop of Rome had the soueraignty Would God forsake his Church a thousand yeres or eight hundreth yeeres is it like that God which is so gracious and merciful would cast off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres and suffer to perish O how hard harted are you how vnreuerently minded against our ancestors how vnkind children so to iudge of the fathers let them beleeue ye that will ye be al heretikes I will keepe me to the ancient faith Pro. Now ye returne to your old fortresse againe yee suppose that ye haue some of those poore soules in hand which yee may seduce because they are ignorant Ye can lay forth this matter so pitifully among them that ye can make them euen wéepe again But when ye come among such as haue vnderstanding out of Gods word and know the state of the Church they laugh at your follie This is a great question what became of that Church we answere as the scripture telleth vs Reue. 17. the beast the dragon did persecute murther the seruants of God The whore of Babylon was drunken with the blood of the saints Reuel 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes God did neuer forsake his Church one day much lesse a thousand or 8. hundreth yéeres it doth not follow that because Antichrist was exalted in the church therefore the church was vtterly forsaken and destroied Although corruptions came into the church apace for the space of this 8. hundreth or a thousand yeres yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable estate nothing so corrupted as within these 5. or 6. hundreth yeres which space we may indéed ascribe to the reign of Antichrist and yet euen in this space he could neuer vtterly destroy the Church for the most gracious God did preserue that litle remnant which was his and none did perish but those which loued not the trueth and therfore God did send them strong delusion to beleeue lies None but those which worshipped the beast and wondered after the beast and receiued the marke of the beast whose names were not written in the booke of life We reuerence our godly fathers shew no vnkindnesse towards them Pa. I will deale with ye then vpon your owne confession ye grant that for the space of fiue or sixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned and the trueth suppressed Where was the Church for this space this is a long time will ye condemne all the world for the
sayd Thou séest what iniuries they doe me She said Son temper thy wrath tarie a little I haue a seruant a noble fighter against vices he shal run ouer al vanquish thē vnto thée And I shal giue vnto him another seruant to help the shal fight as he doth And our Lord said I am appeased But I would sée who they be Then she shewed him S. Dominike and S. Francis and he praised them Here the blessed Lady did helpe at a pinch or else all had bin marred These her two Apostles which shée did sende forth euen the two Friers Saint Dominike and S. Francis were woorth all the twelue Apostles of Christ There were certaine Ladies heard S. Dominike preach which had bin seduced by heretikes which knéeled down at his féete and told him their case prayed him to helpe them He had them tarry a little and they should see what Lord they had serued Anon they saw spring out of the middle of them a cat right foule and horrible which was bigger then a great dog which had great flaming eyes a broad tongue and bloody she had a short tayle out of which issued a terrible stink She turned her about among the Ladies a while and afterward mounted vp by the bell rope into the stéeple and went away leauing a foule stinke behind her Thus were these good Ladies deliuered by holy S. Dominike After S. Dominike was dead he healed many raysed vp sundry from death The blessed Virgin S. Mary might doe the Pope now a great good turne to giue him two such as Dominike and Francis and it may be if he beg hard and call lowde enough she will heare him Pa. Goe too you haue these things out of the Legend who did euer allow it to be canonicall What should we regard what is spoken there Ye may be better occupied Pro. If it were not allowed why did Frier Iohn of Vignay translate it out of Latin into English Why had it this price set vpon it to excell all other bookes as far as gold doth excel all other mettals And therefore is called Legenda Aurea that is to say Golden Legends The festiuall which was read vpon Saints daies in the church doth fetch as many authorities out of the Legend as out of the Scriptures I perceiue you are loth to heare any further therefore I will tell the lesse What say ye to that good Lady which was so deuout in the seruice of the blessed Virgin and yet at a time vpon the purification her Priest was from home so that she could not haue Masse Neuerthelesse she went into her Chappel and praied to the blessed Virgin so long vntill shée fell on sléepe At the last she saw a great companie of goodly Virgins and one glorious Virgin aboue the rest She saw also one come in with a bundle of candles She saw a priest goe to Masse with two Deacons which were Laurence and Vincent The priest was Christ Euery one had a candle giuen them light and so had she two yong Angels began the introite of the Masse the Angels bare the Tapers before the priest all the virgins did sing the Masse When the offering came euery one brought their candle and they stayed for this woman which did not come with hers the great Ladie sent to her two times and yet she would not come She sent the third time to pray her to offer her candle or else to take it from her She would not then the messenger laid hold of the candle he pulled and she pulled so long that the candle was betwéene them pulled in péeces he had one end and she another and withall shée did awake and found the péece of candle in her hand Then shée did know certainly shée had heard Masse and thanked God and our blessed Lady Surely they did her wrong for they should haue awaked her first and then haue bid her offer her candle If I had béen as this Lady I would haue made much of that péece of candle For it is like that some Chaunler in heauen made it For Christ the Angels occupie candles whensoeuer they say Masse If I should tell all the tales of holy S. Anthonie which fought with a number of diuels of good S. Patrike which in Ireland did finde out Purgatorie of pitifull S. Francis of chast Saint Hagnes which yet was so gentle to be wooed that at diuers times she would holde forth her finger to receiue a ring Indéede I doe not remember that she did receiue any but of priests by which it doth appeare she loued them well If I say I should tell all of these and a number moe I cannot tell whether you Papists might be iudged the greater liers for deuising or I the greater foole for rehearsing To bée short he that will come to your dunghill hée can light no where amisse dig where hée will he shall finde it spade déep Let him come with his dungcart as oft as hee will he shall soone fill it I suppose the diuell hath well emptied his bags among ye Pa. I told ye I haue nothing to do with those things if yee can shew any forgeries among vs now the things which are past wee cannot iudge of them Pro. That which is bred in the bone will not out of the flesh Yee haue it so naturally in ye to lye that ye cannot leaue it Ye are not ashamed to falsifie the Scriptures the ancient writers and Councels ye are not ashamed to deuise and spread abroad foule slaunders against such men as GOD raysed vp to throw downe Antichrist Although it bée of things impossible yet tell it and a number beléeue it As for exāple a great Bishop of yours did preach in open assemblie that the Diuell came like a trimme fellow fell in loue with a mans daughter begat her with childe which was Martin Luther Is it like that the Diuell could beget children now in his old daies and yet I know it goeth for paiment among the ignorant blind papists A number of things ye deuise against Caluin Beza and others which are euen as true as that Pa. These men were so good that a man need not to deuise any thing of them he may find euen enough of that which is true and too much to be told Pro. You are not sure of it although ye affirme it Pa. Yes I am very sure of many things Pro. Did ye euer know any of these men or haue ye séene their conuersation Pa. What though I haue neuer knowne any of them nor seene their conuersation I haue heard enough and that by such as I may beleeue Pro. If that bee sufficient yee might haue heard of Christ that he had a diuell Matth. 9. and by as credible men as you haue any likewise that he was a glutton Matth. 11. and an vnmeasurable drinker of wine a friend of Publicanes and sinners Ye might haue heard many things also against S. Paul This is the equitie which