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scripture_n church_n ground_n pillar_n 2,625 5 10.3132 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A42574 The primitive fathers no papists in answer to the Vindication of the Nubes testium : to which is added an historical discourse concerning invocation of saints, in answer to the challenge of F. Sabran the Jesuit, wherein is shewn that invocation of saints was so far from being the practice, that it was expresly [sic] against the doctrine of the primitive fathers. Gee, Edward, 1657-1730. 1688 (1688) Wing G459; ESTC R18594 102,715 146

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his_o little_a touch_n at_o i_o i_o have_v like_a to_o have_v slip_v i_o know_v not_o how_o over_o his_o say_n i_o impose_v silly_o upon_o the_o reader_n when_o in_o answer_n to_o the_o objection_n make_v about_o no_o one_o be_v deny_v the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n be_v power_n of_o excommunicate_v the_o asiatic_n i_o have_v say_v every_o bishop_n may_v deny_v to_o communicate_v with_o any_o other_o bishop_n or_o church_n against_o who_o they_o have_v sufficient_a reason_n as_o if_o say_v he_o deny_v to_o communicate_v be_v the_o same_o thing_n as_o to_o excommunicate_v to_o the_o do_v of_o which_o a_o authority_n or_o jurisdiction_n over_o they_o who_o be_v excommunicate_v be_v require_v whilst_o refuse_v communion_n may_v be_v do_v without_o any_o such_o power_n well_o then_o this_o man_n shall_v have_v his_o will_n and_o i_o therefore_o tell_v he_o that_o by_o deny_v communion_n i_o mean_v a_o do_v it_o authoritative_o that_o be_v a_o put_v the_o other_o bishop_n from_o they_o by_o 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will_v not_o do_v his_o business_n and_o be_v not_o to_o the_o purpose_n and_o thereupon_o challenge_v he_o to_o produce_v father_n for_o that_o point_n promise_v he_o at_o the_o same_o time_n a_o fair_a answer_n but_o our_o compiler_n dare_v not_o offer_v to_o accept_v of_o the_o challenge_n dare_v not_o meddle_v with_o such_o a_o thing_n but_o if_o two_o or_o three_o bit_n of_o the_o old_a testimony_n out_o of_o the_o nubes_fw-la may_v be_v admit_v they_o be_v at_o my_o service_n and_o from_o these_o it_o be_v that_o he_o will_v fain_o prove_v that_o even_o in_o matter_n of_o belief_n the_o tradition_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n be_v the_o best_a demonstration_n what_o better_o than_o the_o express_a testimony_n of_o scripture_n itself_o methinks_v our_o ignorant_a compiler_n may_v have_v be_v content_v to_o have_v make_v tradition_n only_o as_o good_a or_o equal_a to_o scripture_n for_o the_o demonstration_n of_o faith_n which_o be_v the_o high_a the_o council_n of_o trent_n itself_o dare_v rise_v in_o favour_n of_o tradition_n and_o never_o pretend_v to_o mount_v tradition_n so_o much_o above_o scripture_n as_o to_o make_v it_o the_o best_a demonstration_n of_o matter_n of_o faith_n but_o when_o ignorance_n and_o too_o great_a a_o stock_n of_o confidence_n meet_v together_o such_o assertion_n as_o these_o be_v common_o the_o fruit_n of_o they_o but_o for_o this_o extravagant_a assertion_n he_o have_v a_o mind_n to_o bring_v in_o origen_n for_o a_o voucher_n who_o speak_v concern_v the_o belief_n of_o christ_n be_v the_o son_n of_o god_n say_v that_o be_v to_o be_v embrace_v which_o by_o a_o succession_n from_o the_o apostle_n be_v preserve_v in_o the_o church_n by_o ecclesiastical_a tradition_n but_o in_o answer_n to_o this_o be_v not_o that_o truth_n and_o faith_n concern_v christ_n be_v the_o son_n of_o god_n express_o teach_v and_o hold_v forth_o in_o the_o holy_a scripture_n and_o which_o be_v more_o do_v not_o origen_n himself_o express_o tell_v we_o 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one_o passage_n which_o i_o will_v set_v down_o and_o desire_v he_o to_o consider_v of_o it_o 1536._o origen_n in_o leviticum_n c._n 7._o homilia_fw-la 5._o p._n 144._o edit_fw-la froben_n 1536._o origen_n in_o his_o homily_n upon_o leviticus_n speak_v of_o the_o old_a and_o new_a testament_n tell_v we_o that_o in_o they_o every_o word_n that_o appertaineteh_n to_o god_n by_o which_o expression_n the_o least_o he_o can_v mean_v be_v that_o every_o point_n of_o faith_n may_v be_v seek_v after_o and_o find_v out_o and_o all_o knowledge_n of_o thing_n may_v be_v apprehend_v from_o they_o but_o if_o any_o thing_n do_v remain_v which_o the_o holy_a scripture_n do_v not_o determine_v no_o other_o three_o scripture_n ought_v to_o be_v receive_v for_o the_o authorise_a any_o knowledge_n but_o we_o be_v to_o commit_v to_o the_o fire_n that_o which_o remain_v that_o be_v we_o must_v leave_v it_o to_o god_n for_o in_o this_o present_a world_n god_n be_v not_o for_o have_v we_o to_o know_v all_o 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will_v be_v guilty_a of_o he_o than_o fall_v to_o thank_v i_o for_o say_v in_o relation_n to_o the_o testimony_n from_o gregory_n nyssen_n that_o we_o allow_v the_o tradition_n of_o antiquity_n to_o be_v high_o useful_a and_o necessary_a in_o the_o interpret_n or_o give_v we_o the_o genuine_a sense_n of_o point_n of_o faith_n all_o the_o answer_v i_o will_v give_v he_o be_v much_o good_a may_v it_o do_v he_o however_o how_o far_o that_o expression_n be_v from_o do_v we_o any_o hurt_n or_o they_o any_o good_a i_o have_v abundant_o show_v in_o my_o vindication_n which_o i_o be_o loath_a to_o transcribe_v hither_o but_o that_o i_o may_v not_o be_v behindhand_o in_o civility_n for_o the_o compiler_n thanks_o i_o will_v present_v he_o in_o token_n of_o my_o gratitude_n with_o a_o passage_n or_o two_o from_o his_o gregory_n nyssen_n and_o other_o father_n which_o i_o must_v recommend_v to_o his_o consideration_n gregory_n nyssen_n in_o his_o dialogue_n de_fw-fr animâ_fw-la &_o resurrectione_n lay_v it_o down_o for_o a_o position_n which_o no_o man_n ought_v to_o contradict_v that_o in_o that_o only_o the_o truth_n 1615._o truth_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d greg._n nyssen_n dial._n de_fw-fr animâ_fw-la &_o resurrect_v tom._n 2._o p._n 639._o edit_fw-la paris_n 1615._o must_v be_v acknowledge_v which_o have_v upon_o it_o the_o seal_n of_o scripture-testimony_n and_o in_o another_o part_n of_o his_o work_n he_o call_v the_o holy_a scripture_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 1084._o idem_fw-la in_o orat_fw-la de_fw-fr iis_fw-la qui_fw-la adeunt_fw-la hierosol_n tom._n 2._o p._n 1084._o a_o true_a or_o straight_o and_o inflexible_a rule_n s._n austin_n be_v as_o clear_v and_o full_a against_o our_o compiler_n while_o he_o assure_v we_o that_o in_o those_o thing_n which_o be_v lay_v down_o plain_o in_o the_o scripture_n all_o those_o thing_n be_v find_v which_o concern_v faith_n or_o manner_n 18._o manner_n in_o iis_fw-la quae_fw-la aperte_fw-la in_o scripturâ_fw-la posita_fw-la sunt_fw-la inveniuntur_fw-la illa_fw-la omne_fw-la quae_fw-la continent_n fidem_fw-la moresque_fw-la vivendi_fw-la august_n de_fw-fr doctr._fw-la christianâ_fw-la l._n 2._o c._n 9_o tom._n 3._o p._n 17_o 18._o s._n hierom_n speak_v of_o the_o heretic_n in_o his_o time_n which_o make_v so_o much_o noise_n and_o pretend_v so_o high_o to_o apostolical_a tradition_n give_v this_o severe_a doom_n upon_o they_o but_o those_o thing_n also_o which_o they_o of_o themselves_o invent_v and_o yet_o feign_v to_o have_v receive_v as_o it_o be_v by_o tradition_n from_o the_o apostle_n without_o the_o authority_n and_o testimony_n of_o the_o scripture_n the_o sword_n of_o god_n do_v smite_v 1565._o smite_v d._n hieron_n in_o aggeum_n c._n 1._o tom._n 6._o p._n 230._o edit_fw-la basil_n 1565._o i_o can_v give_v he_o several_a such_o testimony_n from_o other_o father_n but_o i_o will_v neither_o trouble_v he_o or_o the_o reader_n with_o any_o more_o at_o present_a it_o 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church_n in_o relation_n to_o her_o practice_n about_o festival_n day_n however_o our_o compiler_n now_o he_o have_v lay_v aside_o his_o disguise_n advance_v the_o same_o accusation_n against_o i_o in_o his_o own_o person_n but_o consider_v what_o church_n he_o be_v of_o can_v do_v no_o less_o than_o give_v i_o thanks_o for_o my_o concession_n well_o then_o since_o this_o man_n be_v not_o ashamed_a of_o serve_v we_o up_o again_o the_o very_a same_o objection_n which_o i_o have_v already_o answer_v i_o must_v even_o be_v force_v to_o trouble_v the_o reader_n with_o repetition_n since_o the_o importunity_n of_o a_o adversary_n that_o can_v blush_v force_v i_o upon_o it_o and_o must_v tell_v the_o compiler_n a_o second_o time_n that_o when_o our_o church_n do_v set_v apart_o day_n for_o the_o commemorate_n of_o the_o saint_n which_o be_v all_o the_o honour_n she_o either_o give_v or_o intend_v they_o she_o only_o appoint_v they_o for_o to_o bless_v god_n for_o the_o good_a and_o pious_a example_n of_o his_o saint_n and_o martyr_n not_o to_o put_v up_o prayer_n to_o the_o saint_n themselves_o nor_o to_o offer_v praise_n unto_o they_o but_o to_o their_o god_n which_o be_v the_o genuine_a practice_n of_o the_o primitive_a church_n as_o i_o show_v from_o the_o example_n of_o the_o church_n of_o smyrna_n in_o relation_n to_o s._n polycarp_n their_o martyr_a bishop_n our_o church_n pay_v no_o religious_a worship_n to_o the_o saint_n themselves_o but_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n do_v not_o only_o worship_v they_o but_o be_v very_o lavish_a and_o extravagant_a in_o it_o as_o it_o be_v easy_a to_o show_v however_o as_o they_o of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v not_o imitate_v by_o we_o so_o neither_o have_v they_o the_o example_n of_o the_o primitive_a church_n to_o defend_v their_o present_a practice_n we_o do_v with_o the_o primitive_a church_n honour_v the_o martyr_n and_o saint_n and_o have_v often_o enough_o declare_v it_o to_o be_v such_o a_o honour_n as_o be_v give_v to_o they_o in_o the_o primitive_a time_n and_o what_o that_o honour_n be_v s._n austin_n shall_v determine_v who_o in_o answer_n to_o a_o false_a aspersion_n of_o the_o manichee_n of_o the_o church_n worship_v the_o saint_n upon_o their_o festival_n day_n and_o at_o their_o monument_n tell_v faustus_n the_o manichee_n that_o the_o church_n do_v indeed_o worship_v the_o martyr_n but_o that_o it_o be_v with_o no_o other_o worship_n than_o that_o of_o love_n and_o fellowship_n which_o be_v pay_v to_o the_o august_n the_o colimus_fw-la ergo_fw-la martyr_n eo_fw-la cultu_fw-la dilectionis_fw-la &_o societatis_fw-la quo_fw-la &_o in_fw-la hâc_fw-la vitâ_fw-la coluntur_fw-la sancti_fw-la homines_fw-la dei._n d._n aug._n cont_n faust_n manich._n l._n 20._o c._n 21._o in_o tomo_n 6._o oper._n august_n holy_a man_n of_o god_n while_o they_o be_v alive_a on_o earth_n that_o this_o be_v no_o other_o than_o a_o civil_a worship_n or_o respect_n i_o hope_v will_v not_o be_v deny_v by_o my_o adversary_n since_o i_o suppose_v he_o will_v not_o pretend_v to_o show_v that_o mortal_a and_o frail_a man_n while_o on_o earth_n be_v use_v to_o have_v religious_a worship_n pay_v unto_o they_o and_o solemn_a prayer_n offer_v up_o to_o they_o with_o all_o the_o external_a indication_n of_o devotion_n as_o to_o the_o concession_n which_o he_o pretend_v i_o have_v make_v and_o suppose_v it_o here_o again_o because_o i_o do_v not_o particular_o consider_v the_o testimony_n under_o that_o head_n i_o must_v tell_v he_o a_o second_o time_n that_o i_o neither_o do_v grant_v all_o that_o he_o have_v collect_v in_o the_o nubes_fw-la testium_fw-la upon_o that_o subject_a nor_o seem_v to_o grant_v it_o but_o do_v set_v they_o aside_o as_o needless_a and_o be_o notwithstanding_o our_o compiler_n far_o from_o join_v with_o they_o in_o this_o point_n as_o he_o false_o will_v insinuate_v that_o i_o do_v but_o this_o be_v not_o the_o first_o of_o such_o wrong_n do_v to_o i_o by_o this_o compiler_n when_o he_o be_v next_o come_v to_o the_o chapter_n about_o invocation_n of_o saint_n he_o tell_v the_o reader_n that_o i_o appear_v with_o some_o disconfidence_n of_o my_o cause_n and_o therefore_o say_v the_o compiler_n p._n 19_o though_o he_o pretend_v in_o the_o title_n page_n that_o antiquity_n for_o the_o first_o five_o hundred_o year_n do_v not_o favour_v this_o or_o any_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n here_o he_o have_v consider_v better_a on_o it_o and_o therefore_o cut_v off_o two_o of_o the_o five_o he_o say_v we_o can_v show_v this_o to_o have_v be_v the_o practice_n of_o the_o first_o three_o century_n so_o that_o here_o he_o be_v willing_a to_o give_v we_o the_o four_o and_o five_o age_n as_o practise_v the_o invocation_n of_o saint_n the_o compiler_n quote_v for_o all_o this_o the_o 43._o page_n of_o my_o answer_n to_o the_o nubes_fw-la testium_fw-la and_o a_o little_a after_o tell_v the_o reader_n that_o i_o grant_v that_o invocation_n of_o saint_n be_v practise_v in_o the_o four_o and_o five_o century_n if_o ever_o i_o be_v surpize_v at_o the_o read_v any_o thing_n in_o my_o life_n it_o be_v at_o this_o account_n of_o my_o book_n against_o that_o chapter_n in_o the_o nubes_fw-la my_o memory_n of_o what_o i_o have_v write_v and_o this_o account_n of_o it_o be_v so_o diametrical_o opposite_a that_o i_o can_v not_o but_o immediate_o look_v into_o my_o book_n to_o see_v whether_o be_v in_o the_o fault_n and_o quick_o find_v that_o this_o compiler_n have_v need_v to_o have_v a_o very_a large_a forehead_n that_o will_v venture_v at_o this_o when_o my_o book_n be_v in_o so_o many_o hand_n for_o first_o as_o to_o his_o say_n i_o have_v cut_v off_o two_o of_o the_o five_o century_n and_o only_o insist_v on_o their_o being_n not_o able_a to_o show_v that_o invocation_n of_o saint_n be_v practise_v in_o the_o first_o three_o century_n it_o be_v very_o false_a i_o neither_o cut_v off_o two_o of_o the_o five_o nor_o insist_v upon_o the_o three_o first_o century_n only_o but_o say_v in_o that_o very_a page_n and_o place_n quote_v by_o the_o compiler_n that_o i_o will_v pass_v on_o to_o invocation_n of_o saint_n and_o see_v whether_o the_o compiler_n do_v show_v this_o to_o have_v be_v the_o practice_n of_o the_o three_o first_o century_n and_o so_o on_o do_v and_z so_o on_o here_o signify_v nothing_o i_o do_v intend_v it_o and_o i_o question_v not_o but_o the_o world_n understand_v it_o to_o mean_v the_o two_o next_o century_n to_o wit_n the_o four_o and_o five_o in_o controversy_n betwixt_o we_o and_o yet_o this_o writer_n have_v the_o assurance_n to_o tell_v the_o world_n i_o have_v cut_v they_o two_o off_z he_o next_o tell_v they_o that_o i_o be_o willing_a to_o give_v the_o papist_n the_o four_o and_o five_o age_n as_o practise_v invocation_n of_o saint_n and_o a_o little_a low_o that_o i_o have_v grant_v that_o invocation_n of_o saint_n be_v practise_v in_o the_o four_o and_o five_o century_n this_o be_v just_a as_o true_a as_o the_o other_o for_o to_o expose_v this_o bold_a falsehood_n i_o need_v turn_v over_o only_o to_o the_o next_o page_n in_o my_o book_n and_o transcribe_v what_o i_o have_v say_v there_o which_o i_o entreat_v the_o reader_n to_o compare_v with_o what_o the_o compiler_n say_v of_o it_o here_o speak_v in_o defence_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n not_o practise_v invocation_n of_o saint_n i_o have_v these_o very_a expression_n we_o have_v far_o more_o reason_n to_o reject_v invocation_n and_o solemn_a prayer_n to_o saint_n as_o superstitious_a since_o it_o be_v against_o scripture_n and_o against_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o three_o first_o century_n against_o a_o council_n in_o the_o four_o century_n and_o want_v a_o pattern_n even_o in_o the_o five_o and_o sixth_z and_o have_v no_o example_n in_o any_o of_o the_o place_n produce_v by_o our_o compiler_n on_o this_o head_n with_o what_o face_n then_o can_v this_o man_n write_v that_o i_o have_v give_v up_o the_o four_o and_o five_o century_n who_o can_v believe_v that_o such_o man_n have_v in_o reality_n either_o religion_n or_o conscience_n that_o can_v with_o so_o much_o deliberation_n commit_v such_o a_o deliberate_a wrong_n have_v he_o have_v any_o regard_n to_o truth_n or_o honesty_n his_o conscience_n must_v have_v fly_v into_o his_o face_n and_o tell_v he_o that_o what_o he_o be_v then_o writing_n be_v a_o very_a great_a injustice_n and_o direct_o false_a good_a god_n that_o man_n who_o make_v such_o show_n of_o religion_n make_v such_o frequent_a appeal_n unto_o the_o god_n of_o pure_a eye_n than_o either_o to_o behold_v iniquity_n or_o to_o let_v it_o go_v unpunished_a that_o talk_v so_o often_o of_o a_o day_n of_o judgement_n and_o severe_a reckon_n can_v do_v such_o thing_n as_o must_v force_v