by consequence they are exempted from an Obligation of examining particular Controversies which their Teachers duty is to examine for them §. 19. Neither is it natural Reason alone which directs us to perfer so eminent Authority before our own simple judgments but as hath been said a Divine Light also appearing in Scripture and in constant Ecclesiastical Tradition the best and safest Interpreter of Scripture There we find the Church called The Pillar and Ground of truth a City at one in it self and set upon a Hill which cannot be hid There we read That every Tongue which shall rise against her in Iudgment she shall condemn that Gentiles shall come to her light and Kings to the brightness of her Rising And that the nation and Kingdom which will not serve her shall perish There we shall find that the least Supream Tribunal on earth to determine Controversies amongst Christians is the Church whom whosoever will not hear is to be esteemed as a Heathen and a Publican such an unappealeable Authority has God established in this Church And by vertue of this Authority General Councils representing the whole Body of Church Governors challenge from all Christians a submission not only of Non-contradiction but also of internal Assent under Penalty of Anathema which assent we willingly and joyfully yield by vertue of Christs promises That he will lead his Church into all Truth Jo. 16. 13. and so preserve her in an uniform Profession of Truth that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against her Mat. 16. 18. which Gates of Hell are by the interpretations of the Fathers Heresies §. 20. These irrefragable grounds from Prudence and Scripture have we Catholics for directing our Faith On the other side not one single Text of Scripture nay moreover not one quotation can be produced out of any one of the holy Fathers which may rationally incourage a Christian to prefer his own sence of Scripture before that of the Church whereas whole Books have been written by them of the Churches unity authority indefectibility and universality Now Sir who can resist who can hold out against such a Battery Prot. Well Sir how prevalent soever this Discourse may seem to you to be against us whom you style Schismatics it will prove of little advantage to you Roman Catholics for although we grant that there is but one Catholic Church out of which there is no Salvation yet this does not prove the Roman to be this Church the Roman I say which is but a particular Church and she being as we are perswaded guilty of teaching and practising many false Doctrines and manifold Superstitions and Idolatry we cannot with a safe conscience have any communion with her §. 21. Cath. Sir this is the ordinary artifice of your Protestant Writers when they are pressed with the guilt of those unpardonable crimes of Heresie and Schism to impute to the Church many Errors and sinful Practices in which foresooth their tender consciences dare not joyn This they do to the end they may be dispenced withal from clearing themselves from Schism till after a full discussion of all other Controversies touching differences about any particular Errors supposed to be in the Church which discussion cannot be undertaken by one in a thousand considering mens general incapacity and if undertaken by the Learned would scarce ever have an end But this is most unreasonable because though it were true that the Church from which they separated were indeed guilty of teaching Errors yet are Protestants justly and unanswerably charged with Schism in a high degree in as much as they remain divided not from the Roman only but all Patriarchal and all other Churches existent before their Separation So that if there be such a Crime as Schism they are manifestly guilty of it and by consequence it would be damnable in any one to joyn in their Communion To make this charge good against them it will be fully sufficient to alledg the confession of all Christians and of themselves also viz. That there always has been is and shall ever remain a Holy Catholic Church of Christ on Earth from which Separation upon any pretence whatsoever is damnable This Church therefore wheresoever it is was in being when they divided from the Roman and can they pretend that they are Members of this Church There is not a Society in the world older than theirs or other than the Roman Church with which they entertain any communion at all to whose consession of Faith they will subscribe and to whose Laws and Government they will submit but on the contrary condemn its Doctrines Laws and Government The consciousness of this forced the principal Patriarch of Schism Calvin to profess that himself and his followers separated from the whole world Now it being impossible for Protestants to excuse much less to justifie their manifest Schism to what purpose is it to enter into debate with them about particular Points of Doctrine As long as the charge of Schisin subsists uncleared by them and this Schism grounded on pretended dangerous Errors in the Catholic Church being Schismatics they are Heretics too and so condemned by themselves and consequently not to be hearkned to when they would raise particular controversies since this one general controversie determines against them all particular debates §. 22. Schism therefore in its lowest qualification considered only as disobedience to lawful Ecclesiastical Authority being even in the judgment of learned Protestants a most horrible Sin a tearing in pieces the Mystical Body of Christ There are one or two special Aggravations which extreamly heighten the heinousness of it in Protestants I mean those Reformers abroad and antiently in Scotland Calvinists Presbyterians Lutherans Anabaptists c. They were once Members of the Roman-Catholic-Church which they then esteemed to be that Church which they believed in the Creed It hapned that their Prime Patriarchs Luther Calvin Zwinglius c. having conceived some discontent either against the Governors or some prevailing party in that Church which obstructed their profits or against the Laws of it which restrained their lusts after Women grew angry and began to quarrel with the Church her self and to study to disgrace her for which purpose the readiest way was to find fault with her Doctrines Then Pride and revenge inspiring them against these they made objections yet not so oft against the Churche's own Doctrines as the Tenents of particular Catholick Writers and most oft they directed their most bitter Invectives against personal miscarriages for all which the Church must be answerable And after all this publishing Liberty from Laws which restrained Concupiscence they quickly found Favorites and Followers thus Sects were first composed But if there had been in any of them either Humility or Love of Peace in case they had been perswaded there had been Errors in the Church her self to which they could not subscribe they would not thereupon separate
a Protestant §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article Cath. It may well be so therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you Prot. Ask what you please Cath. First then when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church do you not believe this Church to be one Body as St. Paul expresly teaches saying There is one Body one Spirit as there is one Hope of our calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church Prot. Yes I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body §. 3. And do you not further believe that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world Prot. Yes doubtless for otherwise the time might come in which this Article of our Faith should be false and also Christ's promise That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church should fail §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church Prot. Yes without doubt Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church or not Prot. No by no means On the contrary I acknowledg that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ and dies in that separation cannot be saved §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree Let us further if you please consider what a Church in general is I mean a Christian Church Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed Prot. It is at least a part of that Church Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ Prot. No For they cut themselves off from this one Church either by inventing New and false Doctrines which renders them Heretics that is Chusers of a new Faith Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church which renders them Schismatics that is Rebels §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body or Corporation unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question Cath. Sir it is not Victory but truth we now regard Therefore speak not of being engaged but freely recal any Answer you have or shall give if you find cause And as for the present Question consider well what that is which makes a Society as a Kingdom a Province an Army a City a Corporation to become one Body Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established This appears plainly in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel a Fugitive an outlawed person and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body Prot. This cannot be denyed Cath. Apply this then to God's Church St. Paul says expresly it is one Body your Creed obliges you to call it One The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self and to a well ordered Army with Banners under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks expecting the Generals command signifyed by subordinate officers Such a society is Gods Church It is the Kingdom of Christ which if once divided cannot stand But by his promise it and no other Kingdom besides it shall stand for ever and therefore it shall never be Divided but all its members shall continue in their order Now what makes such Order but obedience to Government and Laws Can you Imagine any other excluding this Prot. I must confess I cannot For it is plain that where every one will be a Law to himself there can be no Order nor Unity nothing but confusion and endless Divisions Cath. Hence it follows then that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples of Governors and Subjects Prot. That is granted Cath. And consequently that it is a Visible Society Prot. True for otherwise none will be able to know whom or what to obey No Society can be invisible to the members of it and it is not a Society if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible and the Laws unknown §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church Prot. St. Paul informs us Epes 4. 11. 12. 13. saying Christ gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews No man taketh this honour to himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers and Subjects to obey their Governors Prot. Yes without doubt But yet with this condition that these Teachers teach truth and these Governors command lawful things Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true and the thing commanded lawful Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts as we two can do to one another But the Scripture being only a Writing and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture the Church may as well be without Teachers §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy For since it is evident to us that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture we cannot rely upon any Man or any Society of Men so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us either out of ignorance or secular interests Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion to discern by the Light of Gods word whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth or not Every one must take the best course he can not to fall into any dangerous Error And since Eternity depends upon it it is not likely that men will
wilfully misinterpret Scripture to their own destruction especially in Points Fundamental which are so clearly set down in Scripture that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them Cath. Well Sir I have at present done asking Questions and now better enabled by what you have said will endeavor to give you a fuller Answer to the Question you proposed in the begining viz. Why are you a Catholick §. 11. First then Sir I am a Catholick because I believe that Christ the Author and Finisher of our Faith is infinitely both good wise and omnipotent His goodness inclined him to come down into this world to save mankind by establishing a Church upon earth which should remain till the end of the world and in which the way to Heaven should be so taught as not only the Wise and Learned but the Poor Simple and Ignorant also should by Faith and Obedience be made partakers of Eternal Happiness Now his goodness having designed this his wisdom enabled him to appoint ways and means proper to effect that his blessed Design and omnipotence to make those means successful § 12. The general efficacious means to accomplish this are first The revealing his whole will to his Church which we acknowledg to be sufficiently done in Holy Scripture as to all points absolutely necessary to Salvation though in all those points not so clearly to every one that without a Teacher their sense may not be mistaken Neither doth Scripture make an express discernment of what points are necessary And secondly The assisting of this his Church with fidelity and a constant performance of her duty in declaring all necessary Divine Truth manifested to her to her Subjects with a command that all Christians should obey and submit to what she shall teach or enjoyn them God having thus revealed his whole Will to his one Catholic Church it necessarily and evidently follows 1. That Ignorance or Error in any Points of Christian Doctrine necessary to Salvation is damnable 2. That a Seperation from this one Church is damnable also upon what pretence soever the separation be made §. 13. Now to avoid eternal Misery thus threatned by Error or Schism only one of these two ways is possible 1. By ones own light to penetrate into all Mysteries so as to be most firmly assured of a right understanding of all necessary verities revealed by God in Holy Scriptures 2. Or out of a distrust of our own abilities to submit our Reason and internal Assent to Authority The former of these ways all Sects divided from the Roman Church and among themselves do uniformly take being forced hereto by denying any visible Society of men to have any authority obliging the Consciences of their Subjects and by conseqence they have all if any an equal Title that is indeed equally none at all to challenge belief one as well as another neither can they rationally without deserting their common Ground condemn or excommunicate one another The latter way we Catholics only take and as we think prudently and surely §. 14. For Sir I beseech you to consider what a busy laborious task you have undertaken by being a Protestant of what Sect among them soever you are Before you can promise to your self any rest of mind in the Peculiar Fundamental Doctrines of your Sect your Conscience must satisfy you that you have not embraced a Religion by hazard but after a diligent sincere and effectual examination of all the Reasons and arguments not only of Catholicks submitting to Authority but also of other Sectaries who proceeding your way of interpreting Scripture by a private light do condemn your Doctrines or whose Doctrines you condemn To be able to do all this how many Volums of Controversy are you obliged to read and examine Besides this it will be absolutely necessary that you be perfectly studyed in all the Books of Scripture with the best Commentaries on them both Ancient and Modern since you ground your Religion upon a sense of Scripture which perhaps not any of them will allow and then in equity you are to examine their reasons for it Now what one mans age will suffice for all this business though but in one or two Points controverted and though the party were learned and had never so much leasure What then shall ignorant persons do who yet make up the greatest number of Christians What shall Trades-men and Day-Labourers do who can scarce allow from their necessary Vocations any time at all dayly even to say their Prayers yet it concerns all these upon the venture of Eternal Happiness or Misery not to forsake or embrace a Religion without a sufficient Examination made by themselves of the grounds of it since they are told and believe it that they must trust to themselves only because no external Authority upon Earth can require from them a submission of their judgment inasmuch as according to their general fundamental Positions no Authority is infallible §. 15. Now whereas you said That all Fundamental Doctrines of Christianity are so clearly set down in Scripture that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them If this were true yet since neither the Scripture nor you your selves do clearly express which and how many Doctrines are fundamental every tittle of Scriptures must be read and examined by every one of you for fear a necessary Doctrine should chance to escape you But to demonstrate the groundlesness of that your Assertion I desire you to reflect on the prodigious multiplicity of Sects swarming in this age all which ground their Belief upon pretended clear Texts of Scripture alone you will then scarce find one Article of Christian Faith exempted from their Disputes There are not wanting who deny the Mistery of the Holy Trinity the Divinity and Incarnation of our Lord the Divine Personality of the Holy Ghost Some absolutely deny Freewill whilst others exalt the power of it so high as to affirm Divine Grace unnecessary to its best Operations Some affirm our Nature to be so incurably polluted by Original Sin as that all the best actions of the Regenerate are Mortal Sins Others will acknowledge no Original Sin at all Some affirm Baptism necessary to Salvation even of Infants Others reject Infant-Baptism and Calvinists assert that Infants without Baptism are sanctified by their Parents faith and that some Infants dying though baptized may be damned Some believe mans Soul to be mortal and that it perisheth with the Body not having any Knowledg or Sentiment after death Some confine God to a determinate place in Heaven and also deny his Prescience of future Contingents Lastly some deny an Eternity of torments in Hell Surely you will not deny most of these to be contrary to Fundamental Doctrines of our Faith yet all who maintain these Tenets and all Sectaries who contradict them do ground themselves upon express Scripture which to you seems so clear You cannot be more confident that you have light on the true sence of Scripture than they of a
themselves from Her but submit patiently to her Censures which she should lay upon them If her Censures were just they would have no reason to complain If unjust God would reward them for their Patience and love of Peace §. 23. They were no sooner separated but they heaped on the Church all the most despightful reproaches and Calumnies they could invent and to heighten their Criminal Schism to the uttermost they formed New Societies which they called Churches and therein established New Pastors and a New Ecclesiastical Ministry the very Sin for which God commanded the Earth to swallow Core Dathan and Abiron Amongst the Gifts which our Lord when he led captivity captive received from his Father and bestowed on his Church the principal Gift mentioned by St. Paul was his constituting therein Apostles Pastors and Teachers to continue to the end of the world by a legitimate Succession There is not the least intimation given in Scripture or Tradition that this Succession should ever be interrupted Yet as if it had quite ceased and been annulled these Reformers without any Warrant usurp a Power to take all Authority out of the hands of those to whom our Saviour had given it and to bestow it according to their own pleasure thus making a total reversement of the whole frame of Gods Church as far as lyes in their Power through the whole World If Christ himself had thus without testifying his Authority by Miracles dealt with the Iewish Synagogue he would not have expected belief nor been able to answer that Question proposed to Him By what authority dost thou these things and who gave thee this Authority Luke 20. 2. Yet all this our late Reformers have done without ever pretending to one Miracle Into whatever place they come through the whole earth they as far as their Secular power extends degrade and chase away all Bishops Priests and Pastors professing the Catholic Religion they take Authority to defame them as false Pastors and true Wolves they denounce Anathemas against them they incite their Subjects to rebel defraud and persecute them as if God had given his iron Rod into the hands of these Gladiators and conferred on them the ends of the earth for their inheritance No man takes his Power of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but he that is called as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. Who called these men to the Office of Preaching and governing Christians Who invested them with such Authority If we consult their own Stories we shall find the prime Ministers in the principal Cities of France constituted and consecrated by hands of the basest sort of Tradesmen There have not been nor even now are wanting among them several sensual Priests once they had a Bishop Apostates from the Catholic Church whom they might employ in the Office of Preaching and Praying in their Synagogues and by that means make a shew that some of their Ministers were indeed Clergymen who had an ordinary Vocation But such hatred they bear to all Ecclesiastical Order that even these shall not be admitted into the Presbytery without renouncing their former ordinary Vocation and receiving their Commission by a New imposition of hands of Lay-Ministers In a word I should weary both you and my self if I should enumerate all the enormities of your first Reformation If you have a mind you may receive sufficient information in a late Book written in French the Title whereof is in English Legitimate Prejudgments against Calvinists in which the learned Author demonstrates by several titles as by what appeared exteriourly in the life of the first Reformers by want of Mission by the evidence of their being guilty of Schism by their temerity most prodigious in their presumption to establish a New Ecclesiastical Ministry by the Spirit of calumny and injustice which generally actuates them by their peculiar most monstrous Doctrines taught by them by their ridiculously impossible way of instructing their Disciples in Christian verities c. By these Marks I say he shews that they do not deserve to be admitted to an examination of their Pretended Reform'd Religion being manifestly prejudged and self condemned §. 24. Prot. But surely Sir you will not apply this to the Reformed Church of England and particularly that charge concerning the want of Lawful Pastors We have been far from making a breach in the Chain of Succession since if there be lawful Pastors in the Roman Church we have the like in the English in as much as we received our Ordinations from Rome Cath. For as much as concerns your Ordinations I will not here enter into any dispute neither indeed is it needful But this I may confidently say That since English Protestants have especially of late by many tokens shewed that they esteem Calvinists or Presbyterian Congregations to be true though not so perfect Members of Christs Church as themselves the English Church I may say justifies but however qualifies or excuses that horrible defect in them of want of Ordinations and lawful Mission and thereby involves her self in their guilt Again though it were true that the English Clergy have received their Ordinations from the Roman Catholic Church yet sure I am that Church never released them from their Canonical subjection to their Superiors particularly to their Patriarch and Supream Pastor of Gods Church She never gave them power to change the order of administring Sacraments to reverse Ordinances of Superior Councils to expel Catholic Bishops from their Sees meerly because they were Catholics In a word she never gave them authority to alter or rather destroy the whole Religion in a manner professed in England since they were first Christians If English Bishops have received their Character from Rome yet not Iurisdiction or if that also yet certain it is that the same Church which gave them Iurisdiction can also upon their demerits and exercising it contrary to her intention suspend the administration of it which suspension is no doubt implyed in her condemnation of all their Innovations To be brief the English Church challenging Ordination by lawful Succession is thereby obliged to acknowledg the Roman Church to be at least a true Member of the Catholic Church and consequently her self no such Member unless the Bishops here will confess themselves to be Anti-Catholic Bishops and yet most unreasonably pretend an Union with the Catholic Church §. 25. Prot. She does in deed acknowledg the Roman to be a Member but a corrupt Member of the Catholic Church Cath. Consider Sir I pray you that the Rule of Faith obligeth us to believe the Church of God to be Holy as well as Catholic Now if the Universal Church be Holy or uncorrupt then is every Member of it as far as in its Communion Holy and uncorrupt also Which Holiness does not regard the persons whether Governors or Subjects for in the first and best Church of all consisting of the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord only there was a Iudas and a Nicolas A Church is said
the very challenging of such a Right which belongs only to the truly Catholic Church is a strong proof that She alone is that Church which hath a Right to challenge it and would prove her self a false Church if She did not challenge it But because perhaps you cannot easily induce your mind to consider her otherwise than as a particular Church I confidently believe that if the Eastern Church were united in one Body with the Western you would not find any difficulty to think your self obliged to yield an entire Obedience to so great an Authority Prot. This I willingly acknowledg §. 32. Cath. Be pleased then to reflect on some Age when these two great Churches were united for example in the days of St. Gregory the Great Then there was a perfect agreement through the whole World excepting only the Societies of Ancient Heretics acknowledged for such by Protestants Then both Doctrine and Discipline was uniform every where What St. Gregory taught was accepted through the whole Church Yea those parts of his Writings which are most opposite to your Doctrines as his Dialogues c. have presently after his time been translated into the Greek tongue and with veneration received by that Church Whence will follow that what he hath taught us in his Writings touching Points of Religion and which you most mislike was then esteem'd true Catholic Doctrine Now what does St. Gregory teach but the same which is now taught in the Roman Church In all Controversies lately raised between Catholics and Protestants he is constantly and directly against Protestants This is so manifest that it is acknowledged by many learned Protestants who describing the particular Points of Religion professed by St. Gregory and St. Augustine the Monk sent by him to convert England name these Freewill Merit and Iustification of Works Pennance Satisfaction Purgatory Celibacy of Priests publick Invocation of Saints and Worshipping of them Veneration of Images Exorcisms Pardons Vows Monachism Transubstantiation Prayer for the Dead Oblation of Christ's Body and Blood for the Dead the Roman Bishop's Iurisdiction over all Churches Celebration of Mass Consecrations of Churches Altars Chalices Corporals and Fonts of Baptism Veneration of Relicks Sprinkling of Holy-Water Dedicating Churches to the Bones and Ashes of Saints Indulgencies to such as visit Churches on certain days Pilgrimages and in a word the whole Chaos of Popish Superstition as they are pleased to stile it So that Mr. Ascham affirms of our Apostle St. Augustine the Disciple of St. Gregory that He was the overthrower of true Religion and the establisher of all Popish Doctrines and another saith of him That he subjected England to the lust of Antichrist which Antichrist you must take for granted was St. Gregory and therefore after his death went undoubtedly to Hell there to receive his reward Thus evident Convictions forced them to confess that all the Doctrines of Faith now taught were then professed as Catholic Doctrines but gall and malice against the Church suggested such foul unseemly words to their Pens Notwithstanding Protestant Writers when not being engaged in controversie they have occasion to treat of St. Gregory himself they are not sparing in their Elogies of him such as these He was a holy and a learned Bishop He was by Name and indeed truly Great adorned with many and great endowments of Divine Grace and as he is often styled the mouth and shining light of our Lord. He was truly a pious man and for his Christian humility yet more to be praised From his Infancy being addicted to the studies of Piety he retired into a Monastery where shewing a particular sanctity of life and being wholly intent upon Prayer he drew the eyes of all men upon him He did so discharge the Pontifical Office that following ages never had his equal much less any one excelling him He was exceedingly renowned for Miracles c. Now me thinks Sir the consent of the Eastern and Western Churches under the Government of such a Prelate so versed as he was in holy Scripture witness his Sermons and Commentaries should be so prevalent with you as to make you suspect your own Reason if it suggests to you that the Religion professed in his days was superstitions and idolatrous § 33. Prot. But why do you say that the Universal Church in the East and West was governd by Saint Gregory when he himself sharply condemned the Patriarch of Constantinople for assuming such a Title as Universal Bishop which he calls an Antichristian Title Cath. It was indeed a Title full of arrogance and therefore justly condemned by St. Gregory in the Notion in which he conceived it might be understood as if the Patriarch pretended thereby to be esteemed the only legitimate Bishop in the Eastern Church For thence it would follow that all other Bishops were only his Substitutes acting by his commission and removeable by him at pleasure Whereas they claim a reception of their Order and Character immediately from Christ alone Such a new Title therefore it was that St. Gregory condemned in that Patriarch and abhorred to accept himself as plainly appears by his Epistles But yet that he had a Superintendence over the whole Church as Supreme Pastor thereof to receive and judge Appeals of Bishops from all Parts in causis majoribus to oblige all Prelates even Patriarchs to the Profession of the Faith established in Councils and the observance of the Churches Laws and to impose Ecclesiastical Censures on all Transgressors of them this St. Gregory challenged and to this the Prelates both of the Western and Eastern Churches also submitted as appears by many Epistles sent by him and Answers received from several Patriarchs and other Prelates in the East §. 34. Since therefore it is confessedly certain that the present Roman Church professes the same Religion which Saint Gregory taught and planted in England which the Eastern Church in those times approved without any contradiction and which is now condemned by Protestants it will evidently follow that in those few Points in which the present Eastern Churches quarrel with the Roman the said Eastern Churches only have been Innovators and consequently that the Roman Church that is all Churches united in subordination to the Prime Patriarch and Pastor still remains the Catholic Church and enjoys the same Authority which the Universal Church in and before St. Gregories days enjoyed So that all Christians who break from her Communion do thereby shew themselves Schismaticks and Self-condemned §. 35. I have purposely made choice to instance in the time of St. Gregory the Great because on the one side several Protestants impute the beginning of the Churches depravation principally to that Age and on the other side Almighty God as if he had a design to confute and silence their accusations chose that Age especially in which to accomplish that most illustrious of all Prophesies foreshewing the glory of the Catholic Church which is the Conversion of Nations from Heathenish Idolatry
The Prophesies themselves are thus expresly set down in the Old Testament and acknowledged by Protestants to regard the Christian Church The Prophet Isai writes thus Isa. 60. 2 3. The Lord shall rise upon thee and his Glory shall be seen upon thee ver 5. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light and Kings to the brightness of thy rising ver 10. The abundance of the Sea shall be converted unto thee the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee ver 11. The sons of Strangers shall build thy walls and their Kings shall minister unto thee ver 14. Thy Gates shall be open continually that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles and their Kings may be brought All they that despise thee shall bow themselves at the soles of thy feet and they shall call thee The City of the Lord ver 22. A little one shall become a thousand and a small one a strong Nation Again Isai. 49. 23. Kings shall be thy nursing Fathers and Queens thy nursing Mothers And again Isai. 39. 21. This is my Covenant with them saith the Lord My Spirit which is upon thee and my words which I have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy Seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed saith the Lord from henceforth and for ever Also the Kingly Prophet Psal. 11. 8. I will give thee the Heathen for thine Inheritance and the ends of the earth for thy possession This Kingdom saith the Prophet Daniel Shall not be given over to another people but shall stand for ever Dan. 11. 44. These are Gods Promises to his Church so acknowledged by Protestants Now it is manifest out of Ecclesiastical History that these Prophecies began not in a signal manner to be accomplished till the days of Saint Gregory For during the first three hundred years the Church was wholly under Persecution and was encreased chiefly by sufferings In the next three hundred years the Emperour Constantine being converted to Christianity there were but few other Kings Foster-fathers of the Church And besides this several of the Emperours and some Kings during that space turned Arians and Apostates from the Catholic Faith But from Saint Gregories time till Luther it is incredible almost what we read of the Conversion of Nations and Kingdoms and of the wonderful Piety and zeal of once Barbarous Kings and Queens assoon as they had embraced the Catholic Faith Which Conversions were generally made by the fervor care and authority first of St. Gregory himself as England can but most ungratefully will not as becomes her witness and next of St. Gregories Successors Bishops of Rome §. 36. Now Sir consider the force of illgrounded prejudices Several Protestants though they saw all the formentioned Prophesies perfectly fulfilled by Catholic Missioners yet out of the pre-assumed hatred to Catholic Religion they will not acknowledg the forsaking Idols and worship of Devils and the embracing of the Catholic Faith to be a Conversion but rather a Perversion and therefore wonder that they do not to this day see those Prophecies accomplished which were made above two thousands years since In so much as Castalio Professes The more I do peruse the Scriptures the less do I find these Promises performed howsoever they are to be understood David George a Protestant living at Basil upon the same grounds became a Blasphemer of Christ whom he called a Seducer Bernardin Ochin turned an Apostate denying they Divinity of Christ. Adam Neuserus a Calvinist Professor at Heydelberg turned Turk and was circumcised at Constantinople Alemannus likewise renouncing Christianity became a blasphemous Iew. And the principal motive of all these horrible changes was an opinion that these Prophecies were false Dreams or impudent inventions of Sectaries and never fulfilled because forsooth not fulfilled in a Church of their Reformed Religion which Reform'd Religion never banished Pagan Idolatry out of one Village Some conversions indeed of their own particular mode they have made for by seditions they have banished Catholic Religion out of several places And particularly the Hollanders may brag that they have converted the great Empire of Iapan from the Catholic Faith to its pristine most execrable Idolatries to effect which they have procured the most cruel murder of near four hundred thousand Catholic Martyrs themselves in the mean time renouncing the open Profession of Christianity §. 37. Notwithstanding the truth is the wonderful Conversions of Nations in former and later times also by Catholick Missioners have been so illustrious that very many of the soberer Protestant Writers have highly exalted their zeal and unwearied deligence in their Apostolical functions and glorified God for it being forced hereto by the many undeniable Miracles wrought by them Yet the pleasant cunning of one Luther an Writer is very remarkable his name is Dr. Philip Nicolai who having written a Book on this very Argument to wit the fulfilling of the fore-cited Prophesies touching the Conversion of Nations is forced to alledg the examples not only ancient as of the Saxons Frisons Danes Germans c. converted by Catholic Bishops and Priests but later also as of innumerable People in the East and West-Indies reduced from Idols to Christianity by Iesuits and other Religious Missioners and to acknowledge likewise that God testified the Doctrine preached to them by stupendious Miracles All this this Lutheran confesses but then with a turn he deprives Catholics of the glory and merit of all their labours and applies it to his own Sect for he tells his Readers that all these Apostolical Preachers in converting Nations did Luther anizare and that the Iesuits in their first converting the Oriental Indians did shew themselves not Roman Catholics but Lutherans and Evangelicks Might he not have said as well that Christ's Apostles converted Nations not as such but as Lutherans §. 38. Now if these Prophesies be Divine and have indeed been fulfilled they have been fulfilled by Catholics only and consequently Catholic Religion constitutes that Church of Christ to which such glorious Predictions were made I will therefore here adjoyn the words of St. Augustine who having alledged out of the Scripture many such Prophesies concludes thus Whilst thou holdest thy self fast to these Prophesies if an Angel from Heaven should say to thee Leave the Christianity of the whole Earth and chuse the part of the Shismatic Donatus Luther Calvin Tindal c. he ought to be to thee Anathema because he would endeavour to cut thee off from the whole and thrust thee up into one part so alienating thee from the Promises of God §. 39. These Sir among many other are grounds surely sufficient to justifie the Right which the Roman Church has to merit your Obedience I beseech you think seriously on them For mine own part I do sincerely protest to you that unless I would renounce all other Guides to eternal Happiness but an over-weaning Fancie of mine own
abilities or blind passion against all Guides establish'd in Gods Church if Divine Revelation consent of Antiquity manifest Reason and even experience by outward Sensation may be fit to guide me I must not be a Protestant I must of necessity be a Roman Catholic For Divine Revelation interpreted also by consent of Fathers and Councils informs me that Christ hath established on Earth a visible Church which is one holy and Catholic the common Mother and only authentick Teacher of all Christians that this Church shall remain such to the end of the World and that whosoever is not a true faithful Member of this Church is thereby cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ and shall be eternally separated from Him Again evident Reason shews that no Person or Society can be esteemed a Member of any Church any other way than by believing its Doctrines and being subject to its Laws and Government In the third place the testimony of our Senses assures us that not any of our Modern Sects do assent to the Doctrines or are governed by the Laws of any Church at all and consequently not of the Catholic Church which had a being at their first pretended Reformation therefore upon these grounds it evidently follows that all the said Sects are manifestly guilty of Schism Moreover since the Roman is that Church of which the first Reformers once were Members and by reforming made a separation from it and since the same Church does constantly profess the same Doctrines which were once held by the Universal Body of Orthodox Christians and again since there is not any visible Church upon earth to which all marks of the true Church assigned in Scripture and by the Holy Fathers can be so applied and whereto the Antient Prophecies and the Promises of Christ have been so perfectly accomplished as the Roman it will evidently follow that the present Roman Catholic Church ought to be acknowledged that one Holy Catholic Church which we confess in the Apostles Creed and by consequence whatsoever Doctrines in opposition to the Faith professed in this Church are taught by Protestants they are thereby without any particular discussion legitimately prejudged to be formal Heresies Now Heresie and Schism being by all even by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves acknowledged most dreadfully wasting Crimes of which I cannot possibly be guilty whilst I adhere to the Roman Catholic Church nor avoid the guilt of them by forsaking its Communion I conceive I have without any necessity of engaging in particular Disputes given you rational Grounds enabling me to afford a sufficient Answer to the Question first proposed by you viz. Why are you a Catholic §. 40. And for a conclusion Sir give me leave to tell you that it will be utterly in vain for you to atempt the avoiding of the stigmata brands of Heresie and Schism by entring into an endless Dispute about particular Controversies to be stated out of Books For till you be able to shew a present Visible Orthodox Church the Governors and Teachers whereof are derived by a continual Succession from the Apostles which Church in all those Points for which you have separated from the Roman teaches as you do and either governs you or is governed by you Till this I say be done your busying your self about particular Disputes will never produce to you Peace of mind but rather encrease in you Pride and Malice against others Your first most necessary Care therefore must be to establish your self in such a Church as can oblige you to believe her for by no other way can you nor your Teachers avoid Self-condemnation as manifest Innovators There are certain illustrious marks assigned by the holy Scriptures and Fathers to distinguish the true Catholic Church from Congregations of Hereticks and Schismaticks such are Unity Succession Universality Converting of Nations Miracles c. And these are such marks as are perceptible by the meanest capacities to the end that none should be excused if they mistake the Church Now not one of these so visible marks belongs to you and not one but belongs to the Roman Catholic Church §. 41. When you are urged to shew some signs or marks which might invite any to joyn with you all you can say is That you teach truth and that you duly administer the Sacraments that is you would prove your selves to be a true Church because you say you are a true Church for not the marks but the essence of a Church consists in teaching Truth c. But marks of his Church easily observable by all men were appointed by God to lead the Simple as well as the Learned to discover that Church which only teacheth Truth and duly administers his Sacraments Not any such marks do you pretend to shew And as for this your miscalled single Mark the Unlearned cannot possibly judg whether you do indeed teach Truth c. and the Learned must have spent their whole lives before they can be in a capacity to judg And though they should be so unhappy as to suffer themselves to be convinced that you do teach Truth c. yet till you can further demonstrate that you are not guilty of Schism but that you communicate with that one holy Catholic Church which you believe in the Creed it would notwithstanding all the truth pretended to be taught by you be a damnable sin in them to communicate with you These things considered since I am confident it is impossible for you to clear this point I believe you will find an insuperable difficulty to prepare according to the method observed here a tolerable general answer sufficient to vindicate your Church in case I should by way of exchange propose to you this Question Why are you a Protestant Prot. Judg not Sir too hastily Perhaps at our next meeting you will hear more than you now expect In the mean time I thank you for your Charity And God willing I will seriously reflect on what hath been said Cath. Farewel Sir and if you think good cast your eyes upon this little bundel of Citations out of several ancient Holy Fathers of the Church who will tell you that upon the very same grounds which have been here discoursed on they were good Christians and Catholics Prot. If they tell me so I shall not easily contemn what they tell me Farewel ✚ ¶ TESTIMONIES of HOLY FATHERS regarding The Substance of the foregoing DISCOURSE §. 1. Of the Churches prepetual Existence Visibility c. OBscurius dixerunt Prophetaeâ—de Christo quam de Ecclesia Puto propterea The Prophets have spoken more obscurely concerning Christ than concerning the Church The reason hereof I conceive to be because they foresaw in Spirit that men would make divisions and parties and that they would not much dispute about Christ himself but that they would raise great contentions about the Church Therefore that was more plainly foretold and more openly prophecyed concerning which greater contentions would in succeeding times
be raised to the end a heavier judgment should befall those who saw the Church and yet fled out of it Quis numeret testimonia de Ecclesia toto Orbe terrarum diffusa Quis Who can number the testimonies given in Scripture touching the Church spread over the whole earth who can number them There are not in the whole world so many Heresies against the Church as there are Testimonies in the old Law for the Church What page there does not proclaim this what verse does not mention it All passages there cry out aloud for the Unity of our Lords Body for he has placed peace through the borders of Hierusalem Now thou O Heretick barkest against all these Testimonies And therefore that whch is written in the Apocalypse is justly verified in that City Without are dogs Thou barkest against these Testimonies From what Tribunal dost thou judg Thy Tribunal is the presumption of thine own heart It is a lofty but a ruinous Tribunal Exaltare super coelos Deus super omnem terram gloria tua Be thou exalted O God above the Heavens and thy Glory over all the earth My Bretheren we have not seen God exalted above the Heavens yet we believe it But we not only believe but we see his Glory exalted over all the Earth in his Church Now I beseech you observe what a madness it is which possesses Heretics They being cut off from the compacted Body of the Church of Christ and by holding a part being deprived of the whole will not communicate with the whole earth over which the glory of Christ is spread O Heretical Madness Thou believest with me that which thou doest not see and thou deniest that which both thou and I do see Thou believest with me that Christ is exalted above the Heavens which neither of us hath seen and thou deniest his glory over all the earth which we both see In sole posuit Tabernaculum suum He has placed his Tabernacle in the Sun that is in a place manifest to all His Tabernacle is his flesh His Tabernacle is his Church which is placed in the Sun not in the night but in the day Tanquam ille quem catechizamus quaereret diceret quo ergo signo If a Catechumen should be inquisitive and say But by what sign shall I being as yet a little one and unable clearly to discern the truth from so many errours by what mark I say shall I find the Church of Christ to believe which I am obliged by so many manifest predictions Hereto the Prophet as if he had a perfect knowledge of the Catechumens scruples answers teaching him that this is foretold to be the Church of Christ which is raised on high and apparent to all For she is the seat of his Glory For in regard of such doubts as may befal the simpler sort of Christians who may be seduced by crafty men from the Church so gloriously manifest our Lord providing a remedy saith A City which is set upon a mountain cannot be hid Christo tales maledicunt qui Those do blaspheme Christ who affirm that the Church hath perished from off the whole earth and remained only on Africa Geneva England Holland c. §. 2. Of the Catholic Churches Unity and of Schism §. 43. Una est Ecclesia quaecunque illa sit There is one only Church whichsoever that is of which it is written my dove my undesiled is but one she is the only one of her Mother neither can there be so many Churches as there are Shisms O this Position both the Schismatics Donatists and St. Augustin were agreed Perirem si essem departe Pauli I should perish eternally if I were of a party of which St. Paul was the leader How then shall I avoid perdition if I be of the party of Donatus of Luther Calvin Tindall c Quamvis Novatianus Though the Schismatic Novatian hath been put to death for the Faith yet he hath not been crowned Why not Crowned Because he died out of the peace concord and communion of the Church separated from that common Mother of whom whosoever will be a Martyr must be a Member We ought rather to endure any torments than consent to the dividing of Gods Church Since the Martyrdom to which we expose our selves by hindring a division of the Church is no less glorious then that which is suffered for refusing to Sacrifice to Idols Si in Navi pericula sunt If there be dangers to those who are ein the Ship there is certain drowning to those who are out of it In montem sanctum tuum Into his Holy Mountain His holy Mountain is his Holy Church This is the Mountain which according to the Vision of Daniel grew to this vastness from a small stone and breaks all the Kingdoms of the earth and which encreased in greatness till it filled the whole surface of the earth In this Mountain he was heard who said I cryed with my voice unto the Lord and he heard me from his holy Mountain Whosoever prays besides this Mountain let him not hope to be heard to eternal life Many are heard in many of their requests but let them not boast because they are heard The Devils were heard in their request to be sent into the Swine Let us desire to be heard to eternal life There cannot possibly be made any Reformation of such importance as the mischief of Schism is pernicious Nobiscum estis in Baptismo You Donatists are with us in Baptism in the Creed and in the other Sacrament of our Lord. But in the Spirit of Unity in the Bond of Peace and finally in the Catholic Church you are not with us Tenenda est nobis Christiana Religio Christian Religion is to be held by us and the Communion of that Church which is Catholic and is named Catholic not only by her children but also even by her enemies Fieri non potest It cannot possibly be that any one should have a just cause to separate his Communion from the Communion of the whole world Ut hanc omittam sapientiam Not to speak of that Wisdom which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom the consent of people and Nations keeps me the authority begun by miracles nourished by hope encreased by charity established by antiquity keeps me there A succession of Bishops from the Chair of St. Peter to whom our Lord after his Ascension committed his Sheep to be fed to the present pontificate keeps me there Lastly the very Name of Catholic keeps me there which name the Church alone among so many Heresies hath not without just reason possessed insomuch as though all Heretics are desirous to be called Catholics yet if a stranger asketh any of them where the Catholic Congregation meets not any of them has the boldness to shew him his own
Temple These therefore so many and so great bonds keep a believer firm in the Catholic Church although by reason of his natural dulness and perhaps his sins he does not manifestly see and penetrate the depth of Divine Truths But among you Heretics who have none of these advantages to invite or hold me nothing is heard to sound but a vain promise of true Doctrine c. Firmissime tene et nullatenus dubites Hold most firmly and doubt not at all that every Heretic or Schismatic baptised in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost if before he Dies he be not joyned and incorporated into the Catholic Church he can by no means be saved though he should give never so many Alms yea though he should shed his Blood for the Name of Christ For neither Baptism nor liberal distributing of Alms nor the undergoing death for the Name of Christ can profit any one to Salvation as long as Heretical or Schismatical lewdness perseveres in him which leadeth to eternal death §. 3. Of the Catholic Churches Authority Of interpreting Scripture Saint Augustine informs us that a certain acquaintance of his derided the Disciples of Catholic Faith by which men were commanded to believe the Church not being taught by demonstrative Reasons what was true To satisfie this Friend he wrote his Book De Utilitate credendi Ecclesiae in which he writes thus It is fitly instituted by the Majesty of Catholic Discipline that those who come to Religion should before all other things be perswaded to believe the Church But you will say were it not better that Reason should be employed to move me which without any temerity I might follow withersoever it leads me Perhaps it might be so But since to come to the knowledge of God by Reason is a matter of so great importance and difficulty do you think that generally all men are capable of searching into the Reasons by which mens minds may be brought to a knowledg of Divine Mysteries Or are the greatest number of men such or but a few I suppose you will answer But a few If so do you think that the knowledg of Religion is to be denyed to all the rest who have not so piercing a Judgment It is a miserable thing to be deceived by Authority but it is much more miserable not to be moved by it If Gods Providence does not preside over human affairs there will be no cause why we should trouble our selves about Religion We ought not therefore to despair that some Authority is constituted by God by which those who walk doubtfully may be raised up to God Puto si quis Sapiens extitisset I conceive that if there were extant a wise man to whom our Lord had given his Testimony viz. that he should be directed by him and if that man were consulted by us concerning this controversie we should not at all doubt to do whatsoever he enjoyned us least we should be adjudged to oppose our selves not so much to that man himself as to our Lord Jesus Christ by whose Testimony he is recommended Now such Testimony doth our Lord afford to his Church Haeretici qui cum in unitate Heretics who though they be not in Catholic Unity and Communion yet Glory in the title of Christians are compelled to oppose Orthodox Believers and they have the boldness to attempt the seducing unskilful Christians by force of disputing and Reasoning whereas our Lord came with a peculiar Medicine against this when he enjoyned not reasoning but Believing to all people But Heretics are forced to take the way of arguing by reason because they see themselves in a most abject Condition if their Authority be compared with Catholic Authority Therefore they endeavour to prevail by a pretence and promise of Reason against the most unshaken Authority of the firmly established Church This is the uniform and as it were regular temerity of all Heretics But the most clement Emperor of our Faith has fortified with the Citadel of Authority his Church both by numerous Congregations of People and Nations and the Chairs of his Apostles He also by a few piously learned and truly Spiritual men has armed his Church with most copious provisions of invincible Reason But the more secure and rational Discipline is That those who are ignorant or infirm should be received within the Castle of Faith depending on Authority that they may be defended by those who can combate with the weapons of most powerful Reason Noc nos ipsi tale aliquid auderemus asserere Neither durst we affirm any such thing viz. that Hereties ought not to be rebaptized if we were not strengthned by the unanimous Authority of the universal Church To which Authority no doubt Cyprian who held the contrary would have submitted if in his time the truth of this question had been established by the examination and decision of a Plenary Council Proinde quamvis hujus rei certe de Scripturis Canonicis non proferatur exemplum Although no express example can be brought out of Canonical Scriptures touching this Point of rebaptization yet the truth of the same Scriptures in this matter is held by us when we do that which has pleased the Universal Church which the Authority of Scripture themselves does commend That since the Holy Scripture cannot deceive us he whosoever is in fear of being deceived by the obscurity of this question may consult the same Church about it which Church the holy Scripture doth without all ambiguity demonstrate Aliud est cum Authoritati credimus It is one thing when we believe submitting to Authority and another when we yield to reason To believe Authority is a way very compendious and without labour Et si nulla ratione indagetur Whatsoever is from Ancient times preached by our Orthodox Faith and believed through the whole Church though by no search of reason it can be found out and though by no speech it can be clearly expressed yet notwithstanding it is to be acknowledged most true Haeretici sunt sibi arbitri Religionis Heretics are to themselves judges of Religion Whereas the proper work of Religion is the Duty of Obedience to Authority Non ad Scripturas provocandum est We must not disputing with Heretics appeal to Scripture Neither is the debate to be constituted in things in which either no victory at all will follow or an uncertain one or little better than uncertain For though the success of examining Scriptures should not be such that each party should have no advantage over the other yet due order requires that that should be first proposed about which at present we are to dispute viz. to which of the parties the preaching of Faith belongs who have right to the Scriptures from whom and by whom and when and to whom that Discipline has been delivered by which men are made Christians For where the Truth both of Christian
Discipline and Faith shall appear to be there also will be the Truth of Scriptures and Expositions and all Christian Traditions Si quid horum per orbem frequentat Ecclesia Amongst such things whatsoever is practised by the Church through the world to dispute whether she ought not to be imitated therein is a mark of most insolent madness Scire sufficit It is a sufficient Motive to reject from our Belief whatsoever we know to be contrary to the teaching of the Church Dicet aliquis si Divinis eloquiis It may be demanded how if both the Devil and his Disciples do make use of and apply Divine Scriptures Sentences and Promises of whom some are false Apostles others false Prophets and all of them Heretics What shall Catholic children of our Mother the Church do How shall they discern truth from falshood in interpreting Holy Scriptures Hereto we answer according as we have received from Holy and learned men before us that they must be very careful to interpret Scriptures according to the Traditions of the Universal Church and according to the Rules of Catholic Doctrine THE SECOND QUESTION BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT §. 45 CAth. Sir Have you considered seriously on the Subject of our last Discourse Prot. Yes Cath. And have you found either in Scripture Tradition Councils or Holy Fathers any warrant to remain divided both in Doctrine and Discipline from all Churches antiently existent upon Earth and at the same time to profess notwithstanding a Belief of One Holy Catholic Church out of whose Communion there is no Salvation Prot. I freely accknowledge that I am not able to produce any considerable Quotations to confront yours Quotations I mean asserting the Authority of particular or new-erected Churches independent on others Cath. Then since it seems both Scripture Tradition Councils and Fathers have given their Testimonies against you Why are you still a Protestant §. 46. Prot. Sir I suppose you do believe I should be very glad to find out a Church to whose Authority I could think my self obliged entirely to submit mine own judgment and securely to commit my Soul to her guidance But hitherto not having been able to find such an one I must be content to stay where I am For as for the Roman Church to whose Communion alone you would invite me she appears to me so wholly depraved that I think a real Miracle would hardly draw me to joyn my self to her Communion Cath. I see Sir that you despairing to justifie your own Churches and to excuse them from Schism do seek to draw me to particular Disputes By which notwithstanding you can receive no benefit at all whatever the success of such Disputes shall be For still the unpardonable guilt of Schism will lie upon you However I will not refuse so far to comply with you Therefore tell me Wherein consists that depravation you speak of Prot. It consists in this that both her Doctrines and Discipline are framed as on purpose to comply with wordly interests and by consequence are opposed to the Spirit of Christianity Cath. How does that appear §. 47. Prot. It appears more than sufficiently in this that as the late learned Arcbishop of Spalato observes all those Points of your Belief and Practice which we condemn and for which we separate from your Church are such as manifestly have a strong influence on the satisfying either her Ambition or Covetousness Cath. Which are the Points which you suppose to comply with Ambition Prot. These which here follow 1. Your Churches assuming the Title of Catholic to her self alone with exclusion of all other Churches 2. The Popes assumed Universal Authority 3. His pretended Infallibility in determining Controversies 4. His usurped Temporal Authority 5. A Power to be acknowledged as given to Priests by consecrating the outward Symbols to make the glorified Body of our Saviour present on the Alter 6. The Offering it in Sacrifice to the Father 7. The exposing of it to mens Adoration 8. The Obligation imposed on all sinners to discover their most secret sins to Priests in Confession and to submit to satisfactions enjoyned by them 9. A proud esteem of attaining to Iustification and Salvation by your own Merits Thus your Clergy not content to invent Doctrines proper to procure their own Exaltation would instill Pride into the people also §. 48. Cath. For what Doctrines do you accuse the Roman Church of Covetousness Prot. Of this latter sort are the Romane Doctrines 1. Touching Prayer for the dead and Purgatory out of the torments whereof Souls are to be redeemed by Masses Alms c. 2. The gaining of Heaven by mony given for Indulgences 3. The Invocation of Saints 4. The worshipping of their Images and Relicks To which Pilgrimages are ordained with costly Offerings c. §. 49. Cath. This Observation made by the infamous Apostate you named if rightly considered truly seems to argue a guilt somewhere yet not in the Church but much rather in those who seperated from her For it strongly argues that since to oppose her they made choice only of those Points which regarded the Honour Authority and Wealth of the Clergy the true Motives inducing them to rebel against the Church were not any zeal for Truth or care for their Souls for they acknowledg her Orthodox as to all Points of Doctrine approved by former Heretics That therefore which stirred up their rage against her was Envy Hatred of Obedience and a thirst unquenchable to rob her of the Treasure and Possessions conferred on her by the Piety of their Holy Progenitours Now Sir tell me sincerely If you were to establish a Church would you take for your pattern that Schismatical King Ieroboam who chose Priests from the dreggs of the People or God himself who instituted a splendid Clergy Prot. It cannot indeed be denied but that contemptible needy and depending Directours of Souls will but very meanly discharge so high an Office as Christ has committed to them having made them Spiritual Iudges of Mankind and stiled them the Light of the world and the Salt of the Earth §. 50. Cath. If the first Reformers had been of your Judgment they would first have reformed in themselves their inordinate Passions But Sir if you please let us leave the judgment of mens secret intentions to Almighty God to whom alone they are open and transparent However this may with full assurance be asserted That if Sacriledge and freedom from Ecclesiastical Iurisdiction were not the only prime Motives they were and will be the prime Effects of your multiplied Reformations §. 51. Prot. I am well content to desist from enquiring into the secret thoughts of persons on either side And therefore I will henceforth consider the forementioned Points in debate between us absolutely and in themselves And so doing you must give me leave to say That this also may with full assurance be asserted that whatever Motives the Roman Church may have to
require Belief of them we cannot assent to them without rendring our selves guilty of apparent contradicting Scripture generally in them all and no less than the heynous Crimes of Superstition and Idolatry in several of them Cath. I do not much wonder to hear from you so a cruel a Censure of our Catholic Belief Yea perhaps I should my self joyn with you in the like if I should take a prospect of the Church by the same false Light that I perceive you have done Prot. Why Sir from whence should I receive Light to discover what you teach but from our Controvertists §. 52. Cath. I did not at all doubt from whence that which you call Light came And therefore permit me to tell you that if you frame your judgment touching the Faith of Catholics by what you find commonly in Controvertists you will condemn you know not what nor whom Prot. This is strange Do none of our Controvertists understand what your Church teaches §. 53. Cath. What and how much they understand I cannot define But this I may with confidence say that generally judging of your Controvertists not a twentieth part of one of their Volumes contains an examination of the necessary Faith of the Church which Faith notwithstanding is pretended to be confuted in every Page Prot. Notwithstanding what you say yet your Controvertists also in answering our Books do take on them to defend whatsoever ours oppose as the Doctrines of your Church Cath. It is too true indeed of some of them who deserve much to be blamed for giving thereby occasion to our Adversaries to multiply unnecessary Debates by a partial esteem of their own private adopted Opinions of their peculiar Interpretations of the Churches Doctrines their probable Additions to them and Inferences from them all which they are desirous should pass for Points of Catholic Faith Besides this several Schoolmen there are whose end of Writing being to boast their Wit and Subtilty who will penetrate into all things no Mysteries shall be incomprehensible to their Philosophy and who think it a great Mastery to advance Positions bordering on the very brink of Heresie Speculative or Moral and then by some nice Distinction to prove them if not Orthodox at least not deserving the utmost Censures And of these mens rashness Protestants oft-times take advantage and zealously oppose them as if the Church were obliged to make good their aery Speculations §. 54. Prot. What Expedient then do you propose to me by which I may be certainly informed of your Churches Doctrines Cath. The way is plain easie and short if you will look before you and not wilfully go out of it Prot. I pray you put me into that way Cath. The way is to examine candidly and seriously the Churches own Decisions only which if you do you will find how little she is concern'd in the accusations you lay against her Prot. If this prove true surely our Modern Controvertists have a dreadful Account to make to God who seem studiously to design the widening of the breaches amongst Christians Cath. That what I say is true I dare take the confidence to make your self the Iudge And this I undertake to demonstrate through all the controverted Points before mentioned by you not by disputing alledging Proofs or answering Objections but only by representing to you in a simple manner the pure naked Doctrine of the Church in relation to all these Points Prot. I am likewise sufficiently averse from clamorous Disputes which commonly are only Prizes of a quick Fancie or voluble tongue and fomentors of unruly Passions Therefore I expect what you intend to say §. 55. Cath. Before I begin I have a few Requests in my judgment not unreasonable to make to you The first is 1. That having supposed that upon a true or false Belief Eternity of Happiness or Misery depends you would force your Imagination to put your self in that state in which your first Reformers really were immediately before they broke from the Churches Obedience and Communion and supposing that you were earnestly tempted by them also to forsake it by adhering to a New-begun Society never heard of in the world before upon a pretence that the Church in which you live and which you as yet esteem to be the true Catholic Church teaches most pernicious Errours Superstitions and Idolatrous practices Of the Justice of which pretence your Tempters now declared Enemies will needs be the Iudges Prot. This I will endeavour to perform §. 56. 2. Cath. My Second Request is That you will acknowledge that the Doctrines of Catholic Faith once decided by the Church are to be understood in the plain literal Sence and in the latitude of the Churches expression And by consequence that when they are severally restrained to different particular Senses by interpretation of Catholic writers such Interpretations are not necessarily to be admitted by you And much less are other Doctrins by inference drawn from them to be esteemed Points of Catholic Faith but only Opinions of particular Divines which do not oblige to Assent Prot. This ought in reason to be acknowleged §. 57. 3. Cath. My third and last Request is That when your Tempters shall tell you that the Catholic Church teaches Dostrins contrary to Scripture you would acknowledge that unless such a pretended Contrariety can be evidently demonstrated to you you ought not for that cause to forsake the Churches Communion For undoubtedly where her Doctrines seem only probably contrary to some Text of Scripture her Authority is such as to oblige you to belive that her Sence ought to be preferred before that of her Enemies who are desstitute of all Authority And it would be madness to transgress the necessary Duty of peaceful Obedience and of avoiding Schism upon a probable hope of finding some Truths elsewhere Prot. Reason requires that this also be granted §. 58. Cath. These concessions therefore being presupposed give me leave to put you in mind of what you said at the entrance into this our Discourse viz. That this may be with full assurance asserted that you cannot assent to any of those Doctrines taught by the Roman Church and rejected by your Party without rendering your self guilty of apparent contradicting Scripture Prot. I remember this well but how will you disprove me Cath. If this Perswasion of yours were well grounded it would be not only in vain but unlawful for me to seek to withdraw you from it But being on the other side assured that what you say is apparent is only so in a false appearance to your mind prepossessed I hope I may without vanity promise to demonstrate to you that you only think an this without Ground that you are assured Prot. You make large Promises to your self which I believe will have small effect upon me Cath. Sir Truth and a Good intention make me confident that Divine Grace which is Omnipotent will accompany them Whereas therefore you say That Roman Doctrines are apparently or evidently contrary
to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of
the Roman Empire to bring together so vast an Assembly from all Regions and yet Unity essential to the Church being always to be preserved which cannot be done without a supereminent Goverment always existent hence it is come to pass that the supream Bishop and Successor of the Prince of the Apostles has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent Governor through all the whole Church to take care that the common established Laws former Definitions and Decisions of the Church be every where observed and professed to prevent any innovations in Doctrine and also to end Controversies among Catholics if any arise at least by silencing contentious Disputes till a General Council may further consider them by which all Schisms are prevented and also Heresies that is any Doctrines that are declared by this supream Pastor contrary to former Church-definitions perpetually crushed and lastly to judg in causis majoribus when quarrels arise among Patriarks Metropolitans c. Thus stands the case and now I appeal to your own Conscience whether you can imagine any other Expedient for preserving a general Peace and Unity in Gods Church And whether if you were appointed and also enabled to frame such a Church as was necessarily to continue always One Body Reason it self would not dictate the same Order to you Experience shews that all Divisions both in the West and East are to be ascribed to mens renouncing Obedience to this Common Governor §. 63. Prot. Truly Sir I cannot but acknowledg that to preserve Order and Peace in so vast a Body as the Church is there must of necessity be a Government and if Government then Subordination and consequently an established Supream Governor And now methinks reflecting upon Ecclesiastical History I see clearly that such an orderly Government was settled in the Church by the Apostles themselves For if as some among us pretend the same Apostles had intended no Supereminence of Bishops above Presbyters and no degrees of authority among Bishops it could not possibly have happened that a few unarmed Bishops not assisted by Secular Power should so immediately after the Apostles have subdued such a world of Presbiters formerly supposed their equals to their Iurisdiction and no marks be left in any antient Writers to shew that those Presbyters resisted or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny And the like may be said touching the Subordination of simple Bishops to Metropolitans Primate Patriarks and of all these to the Supream Pastor Though probably those Titles came into the Church in posteriour ages Therefore upon due consideration I cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an Authority of the Bishop of Rome as you say is moderated by the Churches Decision is very much abated Cath. Since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this to you formerly Rock of offence I may I suppose proceed to the following Points of Controversie touching the Holy Eucharist c. §. 64. 3. Of the Popes Temporal Authority and Iurisdiction Prot. No Sir You go too fast For though I am perswaded that our first Reformers with all their Rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the Church upon this Motive of opposing such an Authority in the Pope as has been acknowledged by General Councils and the ordinary Exercise of it to be regulated by approved Canons since I suppose such Authority regards only Ecclesiastical Affairs But your Church will not be contented with this for she will extend it also to Temporal matters even to the disposing of Kingdoms deposing of Princes absolving Subjects from their natural Allegiance expresly commanded in Holy Scripture c. Cath. Where do you find that our Church invests the Pope with such an Authority Prot. I cannot distinctly tell you that but of this I am assured that the Pope challenges it and as by Divine Right Cath. How do you ground such an assurance you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable Proof thereof because some of his Predecessors have challenged it when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent Pope ever pretended to it But let it be supposed that the present Pope did now challenge it Will you not live in a Community in which the Governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due Prot. No truly especially if that Authority to which he pretended endangers the ruine of Kingdoms or the utter banishment of Peace every where For such an Authority I am sure was never established on earth by our Saviour who is the Prince of Peace And that which makes me assured hereof is this because if Christ had had such an intention of dissolving the Frame of all Civil Government through the world he would have left in Scripture or Tradition most express proofs of such his will in a matter of that infinite importance whereas the quite contrary rather appears Cath. You say well But will you run out of the Church in case a Pope should chance to challenge more then his due when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such Authority challenged by him or to acknowledg the justice of it Prot. Dare you disacknowledg this Authority §. 65. Cath. What I acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material But to rectify your mistake I will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day and thence you may collect what must be required from you in case you are a Catholic Prot. You will much oblige me therein Cath. Then it cannot be denyed that besides that Temporal Power indeed belonging to the Pope within his own Dominions of which he is now the Temporal Soveraign several Popes in former times have both Challenged and actually exercised an unlimitted Temporal Iurisdiction over other Kingdoms and Empires Which Iurisdiction if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by Kings either obnoxious and unable to resist or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against Enemies or Rebels Several examples hereof remain in our Records particularly during the Raigns of King Iohn and Henry the third But generally Princes when freed from such exigences have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the Roman Court. If we now descend to latter times and cast our view on the present state of Christendom we shall find Kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain Iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their Dominions that not any of them will permit Rescripts Bulls or Mandats from Rome though regarding even Ecclesiastical affairs unless touching private inferior persons to be published and much less executed within their states till examined and approved in their respective Councils Nay more then this even the Canons of Reformation prescribed by the General Council of Trent as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the Temporal Power of Princes have always been refused to
think it reasonable to furnish our selves with such expedients as are proper to put us oft in mind of them which we therefore regard in a far other manner then we do such things as represent to us only indifferent Objects Is not this Sir suitable to Reason Prot. Truly it seems so to me Cath. Then I desire you to examine your self and tell me if whilst your thoughts are employed on vain or perhaps sinful objects one should on a sudden hold before your eyes a Crucifix containing the History of our Saviors Passion would not the fight thereof recal your mind to the contemplation of an Object more noble more heavenly to mediate on which would be very beneficial to you Prot. No doubt it would Cath. Again may not one glance of your eye thereon so refresh your Memory as in a moment to make you call to mind as much of the Story as perhaps the reading of a long Chapter in the Gospel would do Prot. That may be granted §. 94. Cath. May it not likewise have the same effect and be yet more helpful to ignorant persons who cannot read and have weak Memories Prot. It may doubtless §. 95. Cath. And are not such representations beside refreshing the memory proper also to raise in your mind holy affections of love and gratitude to our Saviour Prot. It is confessed But what is all this to worshiping or adoring a Crucifix or other Image Cath. Sir I desire you since these terms of Adoring and Worshiping in our common English are usually made to import the Supreme Honour due to God alone that you would not in imitation of your libelling Controvertists whose only aym is by any arts to render our Religion odious to unwary Readers make use of them in this argument But take the Churches own expression and call the respect we bear to Sacred Images and Relics Honour Reverence or Veneration Prot. I am Content §. 97. Cath. Then Sir give me leave to ask you Whether it is not another kind of special regard which we have to Sacred and Heavenly Objects from that we bear to profane as for example Can you think fit to do all the same things in a Church which you would have no Scruple to do in your house or in an unclean place Prot. No doubt a difference is to be made Cath. And would you not judg that person injurious to our Saviour or to his Blessed Mother who should deface spit upon or defile the Pictures of either of them And on the other side whether seeing another reverently kissing either of them you would not collect thereby that he bore respect to the glorious Persons represented Prot. Let all this be granted Cath. And would you call such a reverent behavior of the latter person Idolatry especially when he with the Church professes that he acknowledges no kind of virtue or Divinity in them for which they should be honoured or that any thing is to be beg'd of them or any trust to be put in them which acknowledgment the Church her self requires from him Prot. I confess I see there no Marks of Idolatry but on the contrary an express renouncing of it §. 98. Cath Well Sir since then Sacred things are otherwise to be regarded then common and profane and again since our Saviour and his Saints may receive testimonies of our Love and Duty as likewise of Hatred and Scorn by our very outward behaviour shewed to their Representations Moreover Since it is that by Representations we are put in mind of Persons and things highly conducing to our happiness and which we cannot without our great prejudice neglect or forget and lastly Since by them the ignorant also may very commodiously be instructed and likewise good affections may by them be raised in all our minds Would you rather forsake the Communion of the Church then with her acknowledg that due honour and Veneration is to be exhibited to them Prot. I have no Scruple to allow thus much Cath. Then surely you will have less scruple to allow the same Veneration to the very Bodies Members or other Relicks of Saints Prot. Be it acknowledged and proceed 13. Of Prayer for the Dead and Purgatory §. 99. Cath. In the next place we will consider what you object against the Churches Doctrine touching Prayer for the Dead which implyes a State in them alterable to the better by our Prayers Alms c. for them Which State is by the Church called Purgatory Now it seems to me a wonderful thing that you should quarrel with Gods Church so as to think Communion with her unlawful because she is charitable and compassionate to her fellow-members as she believes standing in great need of her assistance §. 100. Prot. That which we principally reprehend in this Practice is that your Church without any Warrant from Gods Word will impose this burthen on us Cath. If you had not dismembred that Book of Scripture which the Church once put into your hands you would have found this Duty of Prayer and offering Sacrifice for the faithful departed expresly commended and practised even by the Iewish Synagogue long before our Saviour came into this world So that your Argument is like that of your Patriarck Luther who could not find in Scripture Justification by Works after he had torn the Epistle of St. Iames out of his Book §. 101. Notwithstanding even in your Scripture you find that no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of God Neither have you any the least ground to believe that Christians full of many unrepented imperfections are perfectly cleansed by Dying Therefore unless after Death there be a place where they may be purified you most cruelly thrust them without hope of redemption into Hell And this you do in contradiction to the greatest Cloud of Witnesses that I think ever gave testimony to any Divine Uerity For besides a world of passages sprinkled in the works of the Holy Fathers among whom some have written Books on purpose to enforce this Charitable Duty towards the Dead there never was any Church since Christ besides yours which in their Publick Liturgies did not employ their Devotions and Sacrifices for the comfort and assistance of their Dead Brethern Yea even your English Liturgy is accused by Presbiterians and Fanatics of the same criminal Charity §. 102. And as for the place it self in which we believe them to be detained stiled by the Church Purgatory what a deal of unnecessary trouble do your Controvertists give themselves in disputing against the fire of Purgatory and touching the Nature intention and duration of the pains suffered there none of which are defined or mentioned in the Churches Decision §. 103. Your partiality is likewise very unreasonable in this matter For Calvin is by you generally esteemed a Patriark of great Authority among all your Sects who notwithstanding assigns to the Souls of the Faithful after death a certain place out of Heaven in which they expect saith he the
fruition of Glory promised them so that all things remain in suspence until the coming of our Saviour to Iudgment Now this so tedious suspension and anxious expectation of an Object vehemently desired must needs be more grievous then a short suffering in Purgatory where probably such a delayed expectation makes the principal torment and where perhaps the sufferings of many less imperfect Souls may be less tormenting than some pains suffered in this life Yet because Calvin will not call this his fancied place Purgatory he is Orthodox and the Church only erroneous He is Orthodox teaching in a manner the very same Doctrine taught by the Church and yet men can have the conscience to forsake the Church that they may learn her Doctrine abroad in a Shismatioal Congregation Prot. Such partiality truly I cannot approve Cath. These are the Catholic Doctrines mentioned by you as evidently contradicting Scripture and invented to promote Ambition and Avarice in the Catholic Clergy And besides these other Points of Controversie there are which though not charged with such an imputation yet are esteemed by you of moment sufficient to drive you out of Gods Church Do you think good that we should take notice of these also Prot. Yes 14. Of Celibacy of Priests §. 104. Cath. The first then that I will mention shall be the Churches Ordinance touching Celibacy of Priests It is confessed by us that this is only an Ecclesiastical Constitution It is also confessed by the most eminent among you that if your Clergy would submit to such a Constitution Ecclesiastical affairs would be better ordered If they say that all men have not the Gift of Continence they may be told that in case any one of them wants this Gift why does he intrude himself into the Office of a Spiritual Pastor Who compels him thereto Yet withall the same person in his younger days had the Gift of Continence whilst he enjoyned a subsistence by a Fellowship in the University Does then his Approaching to the Altar expel that Gift or does Ordination make a wife necessary in these latter days only whereas never any former Christian Church not in Greece it self would permit any person after made a Priest to marry Even those very Councils forbad this which permitted marryed men to receive Priesthood If therefore there be among them a want of this Gift of Continence it is their own fault generally speaking they want it because they are unwilling to enjoy it and will not make use of Prayer Reading Abstinence Solitude and other means proper to continue it And will you Sir leave Gods Church because those whom God hath appointed to take care of your soul have not neither desire to have Wives Prot. Go on to the next Point 15. Of abstinence from flesh enjoyned in Fasting §. 105. Cath. As not in the former Constitution so neither in this by which the Church commands Abstinence from flesh on days of Fasting can you have any pretention to impute to our Church as we may to yours that she favors carnal affections In the former her Clergy imposed on themselves alone the burden of renouncing all even otherwise lawful satisfactions to the flesh And for this you who are nothing concern'd will be angry and forsake a Church because Mortification is practiced by the Pastors in it In this latter Ordinance she indeed I mean her Clergy restrain in some measure the appetites of the Layty but they do not in the mean time favour themselves If it were not good for our Souls to abate the intemperance of our Bodies Ecclesiastics would not afflict themselves by practising it And if it be good Laicks are too blame to find fault with it §. 106. However I cannot judge you so unreasonable as to joyn with your hot-headed Controvertists and Preachers who for these two Ordinances sake impute to our Church the teaching of the Doctrine of Devils in forbiding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats since it is manifest that these Heretics of whom Saint Paul prophesied and which appeared shortly after in the Church uttterly condemned Marriage in all as an abomination in it self and taught that all Creatures having life are composed of particles of the evil Deity and therefore to be had in execration Now Sir can you observe any affinity between these Doctrines and those of the Catholic Church teaching that Marriage is honourable in all who are called to it but yet that Virginity especially in persons consecrated to God is better And again that all Gods creatures are good and to be received with thanksgiving but yet on some few days when we are for the good of our Souls to subdue our carnal Lusts fermenting in our Bodies it is expedient to abstain from some more nourishing meats though otherwise in themselves lawful and good Prot. I am sufficiently perswaded Saint Paul never intended you in that Prophesie And now Sir it will not be necessary you should trouble your self about any other Points debated among us None of which as neither indeed the two last being of such moment as to oblige any one to break from any Churches Communion at all Since all the Doubts concerning them consist in this Whether a single Christian may safely judg himself wiser and holyer then the Church Cath. God Almighty establish in your heart a love of his Truth and Peace And now for a farewel give me leave to add a few considerations touching the general argument of both our Discourses Prot. I give it willingly §. 107. Cath. Then Sir you may remember how at our last meeting I told you that it was the common artifice of your Controvertists when they are charged with Schism to delay the examination of that most important Point till the Greek Calends that is till all other particular Controversies be debated to their satisfaction which will never be But now I must alter the expression and tell you it is not so much a voluntary artifice as pure necessity that put them and you upon that unreasonable Method §. 108. When a Catholic is examined why he is so an Answer is readily suggested to him that it concerns the safety of his Soul to be a member of that Church which from his Creed he learns to be Holy and Catholic and that the Roman is such having all the Marks by which the only true Church is characterized in Scripture He answers directly to the Question without comparing particular Tenents of his Church with those of other divided Congregations which requires much Study and learning beyond the ability of ordinary Catholics whereas the most simple are unquestionably perswaded of the Authority of their Church and that keeps them safe in it against all the captious Objections of Sectaries endeavouring to shake their Faith in particular Doctrines the justifying of which they leave to their Teachers and Governors §. 109. But a Protestant being examined Why for example he is Member of the Church of England it never enters into his
contrary sense and only self-love and selfe-esteem determine both the one and the other Can it then be prudence in any man to hazard Eternity upon his own sence of Scripture the half of which perhaps he never read Commonly a Text or two concludes every point controverted when perhaps there are twenty Texts unconsidered by the Person which would rectify the sence he gave to the former Is that Guide to be trusted which has seduced such infinite Multitudes opposing calumniating and hating one another All Mankind may be witness that this Private Light hath hitherto never been able to confute or undecieve one Sect. In a word is it not in effect an injurious blaspheming of the Goodness Wisdom and Omnipotence of God to affirm that he has obliged under penalty of damnation all Christians to unity of Faith in all necessary Doctrines and also that he hath promised to conserve his Church in this Unity to the end of the world and on the other side to affirm withal that the only Means appointed by him to produce this Unity should be a certain Means of destroying Unity and which if made use of by all Christians the gates of Hell would be too strong for him so that there would scarce be left a Church upon earth §. 16. Truly Sir I do not know through what Spectacles you look upon this principle of Protestancy which hath been indeed the constant Principle of all Ancient-Herities But to me it appears most horribly gastly and only fit to be acknowledged the invention of Lucifer the foul Spirit of Pride and contention who presents to unwary Christians once more this fruit of the Tree of the knowledg of good and evil to be aspired to by our own endeavors and contrary to Gods appointment Since therefore as hath been said there are but those two ways to arrive at the knowleg of Divine Mysteries contained in Scripture yet so contained as that the Texts in which they are contained are subject to be miss-understood viz. First A man 's own private Reason And Secondly Authority of Superiors by Gods appointment placed in his Church All the Reason I have enforces me to chuse this latter way because thereby I shall avoid inconstancy otherwise unavoidable as I am taught by St. Paul who sayes Eph. 4. 11 12 c. That therefore God placed in his Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers for the edification of the Body of Christ a Succession of which is to last till we all meet in the Unity of Faith c. This Almighty God did says he To the end we should not be like children wavering and carried about with every wind of Doctrine through the wickedness of men and cunning of such as would circumvent us with errour the only remedy whereof in the Apostles judgment is submission to Authority To which submission also I am obliged by an express command of God Obedite praepositis vestris c. Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that are set over you and submit your selves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account And Reason thus divinely enlightned obliging me to submit to Authority I should renounce the same Reason utterly if I should not prefer that Society which by an evident Succession from the foresaid Apostles and Pastors makes the best claim thereto yea which alone claims an Authority obliging the Conscience and that is the Catholics Church the Authority whereof is evidently the greatest in the world For though all divided Sects preume to contend with her for Truth of Doctrines challenging that to themselves yet there is not any one of them which dares assume to themselves that eminence of Authority which manifestly appears in her And you may know this Catholio Church from others because it only challengeth an universal and absolute not conditional Obedience and you may know the Sons of it by their professing to give to the Churches Authority such Obedience §. 17. Now Sir consider how agreeable to Gods goodness and wisdom how suitable to humane capacities how helpful to mens necessities is this way of grounding our Faith on Gods Word as interpreted by the Catholic Church The far greatest part of Christians are too weak to maintain Disputes yet God loves the Poor and Ignorant at least as well as he does the Rich and Learned and takes care to bring them to Happiness without Learning sharpness of wit curiosity and study of knowledg Consequently he has chalked out a way to Heaven in which the Ignorant and Simple may walk securely And in what other way can these walk but in that of obedience to Authority This doubtless is that way foretold by the Prophet Isa. 35. 8. saying in Christs Kingdom There shall be a high way and it shall be called a holy way No polluted person shall pass through it This shall be to Christians a streight way so that Fools shall not err in it Now have Sectaries found out this streight way in which Fools cannot err Sectaries I say who have framed a confused Labyrinth in which there are a thousand cross paths and windings where every one wanders as it were with a dark Lanthorn in his hand and either stumbles into or phantastically chuses such a path as at the present pleases him best and leaves it also when he thinks good not taking direction from any other or not much caring for such directions By this means we see how that not only Fools and Ignorant but even the most Judicious amongst Sectaries following their own light do walk all their lives in quite contrary ways yet all believing that God by the Scripture directs them §. 18. Manifest therefore it is that Gods way being only one holy streight High-way not any Sectaries but all and only Catholics have been by Almighty God brought into it In as much as they distrusting the dim Light of their own Reason for discerning the Verities of Faith contested borrow the Churches Light thus exercising Christian Humility in not presuming upon their own Abilities and Christian Obedience in submitting to the Guidance of those Teachers and Governors whom God hath placed over them and who are to give an account of their souls These Heavenly Virtues are and have always been equally practised by both Ignorant Catholics out of necessity and by the most Learned out of Duty Yea those glorious Lights of Gods Church the holy Fathers and ancient Doctors though they were Fathers and Doctors to others yet to the Church herself they were humble Children and Disciples learning only from her and teaching others only what they had learnt from her This surely is a streight High-way and a Holy way too and whil'st the most Simple among Catholicks walk in this way they have an incomparable advantage in light above the most Learned of those which trust to their private light For they are guided by all the lights that is by the whole Body of those which God hath constituted Teachers in his Church in all ages and
Remission and Heaven too for a few Prayers recited for visiting a certain number of Churches or disbursing a small sum of Money Quid ergo verba audio cum fact a videam Cath. All that you alledg being confessed what prejudice can that bring to you or me I told you that several School-men in their Speculations do attribute more to Indulgences then the Church gives them warrant for and this they themselves acknowledg So it fares in all Religions that Opinions do in number far exceed Articles of Faith No wonder therefore if Popes do enlarge their Graces according to the measure of Opinions not condemned And who justly blame them since they themselves reap no profit by all the Alms given Indeed in the former Ages great Scandal was given by the avarice of such as published Indulgences and collected the charitable Alms of devout people Of which Scandaâ— â—â—e Church taking notice utterly abolished that Office and commanded Bishops in such occasions to assume from among the Canons of their respective Churches to be Collectors of Alms withal strictly forbidding them to accept any reward at all for their labour §. 84. Matters standing thus what harm flows to any by Indulgences so published Though perhaps not one in a hundred gains the full vertue of such Indulgences yet something they do certainly gain some reward they will reap from performing the good actions enjoyned which probably would otherwise never have been done by many However they loose nothing at all They are taught not to expect remission of unrepented sins or to gain Heaven by an Indulgence for none are capable of the fruit thereof but such as have with Contrition confessed their sins and received absolution and consequently are in the state of Grace but yet remain obnoxious to temporal punishments from which an Indulgence duely made use of doth free them §. 85. One incommodity indeed may justly be apprehended by a too profuse and frequent concession of Indulgences which is the enervating of Ecclesiastical Discipline to prevent which the Church as I said in the entrance into this Point expresly and earnestly admonishes that the granting of them may be done with great moderation according to the antient and approved Custom of the Church Now If all this care will not yet satisfy you however surely you will have no excuse for leaving the Church upon this account because though there be never so many mistakes or abuses in the ordinary teach of Private Doctors and common practice about Indulgences you will not need to concern your self in any of them since if you think fit you may keep your money in your purse perform your Devotions in your private Closet endeavour to fulfil all Canonical Penances which have been or by the utmost rigor of Ecclesiastical Discipline ought to have been imposed on you for all your sins and so freely abstain all your life time from making use of an Indulgence Prot. Enough hath been said on this subject proceed if you think fit to the next 10. Of Iustification and Merit of Good Works §. 86. Cath. After the discoursing of Confession Penance and Indulgence it will be seasonable and proper to treat of the Fruit arising from or by occasion of them which is the Merit of Good Works and Iustification There is scarce any Point of Catholic Doctrine from which Protestants have sought greater advantage to multiply foolish Books and senceless Sermons then this touching Iustification and oft it falls out that their zealous Invectives against the Church are then most loudand bitter when explaining themselves they presently agree with the Churches sense Of this as soon as I have sincerely acquainted you with our Catholic Doctrine I am content you should be the Judg. §. 87. First then it is acknowledged that the Church teaches That men are justified indeed by the imputation of Christs Iustice and by Remission of their sins but not by these only so as to exclude Grace and Charity shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost that is in effect That God does not justify nor remit sins to persons while they persist in their sins and in a hatred of him Again the Church making use of the ordinary expression of the Holy Fathers teaches That a person justified truly merits eternal Life by his good Works Now this word Merit the word I say but not the true sense of it when they will permit us to explain it is very offensive to Protestants But you having obliged your self to avoid partiality will judg of the Churches sense by what she further adds for explication of this Point and for clearing her self from the imputation of encouraging men to glorify themselves and to trust in their own abilities for purchasing remission of sins and salvation §. 97. Thus then she further teaches it is necessary to believe that sins neither are nor ever have been remitted but by Divine Mercy freely extended to us for the merits of Iesus Christ. Again We are said to be justified freely because not any of those things which precede our Iustification whether Faith or Works can merit that Grace In the third place Eternal life ought to be proposed to the Children of God both as a free Grace mercifully promised to them through Iesus Christ and also as as a Recompence which is faithfully rendred to their Good Works and Merits by vertue of that Promise Fourthly although in Holy Scriptures so much is attributed to Good Works that Iesus Christ himself promises that a Cup of cold water given to the poor shall not fail of a Reward and that the Apostle testifies that our light and momentary tribulation worketh fur us a far more exceeding eternal weight of glory Yet God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord whose Goodness towards all men is so great that he is pleased that the Free Gifts bestowed by him on them should be their Merits I will add only one passage more out of a great heap to the like effect We who of our selves as of our selves can do nothing by our Lords cooperation who gives us strength can do all things Thus man hath nothing in himself for which he can glory but all our glorying is in Christ in whom we live in whom we merit in whom we satisfy bringing forth fruits worthy of Repentance which fruits take their vertue from him are offered to the Father by him and accepted of the Father for him Thus are we instructed by the Church in the Council of Trent and moreover in the Canon of the Holy Mass we are taught thus to pray Mercifully vouchsafe O God to admit us into the Society of thy Apostles and Martyrs not weighing our Merits but pardoning our offences through Iesus Christ. §. 89. Can you now say Sir that the Roman Church teacheth her Children to glorifie themselves and to rely upon their own Merits or indeed to esteem their Merits to
be their own she must cancel the whole Scripture if she would affirm that without a good life and Holiness we may see God Or if she would affirm that God has not obliged himself by a world of Promises to reward our Good Works with Happiness infinitely exceeding the value of them But withal to preserve in our hearts that most essential virtue of our Christian Professor Humility She further instructs us that our Works as Merits are the pure free Gifts of God and effects of his meer Grace which alone affords them all their value That they are accepted and rewarded by God only for the Merits of Iesus Christ. Yea further that our Natural Corruption still remaining and mingling it self in our best actions we can have no assurance that they are indeed such as God has promised to reward And however that though we now stand yet we have no assurance that we shall not fall In a word the whole Substance of her Doctrine touching the present Subject directs us to work out our Salvation with fear and trembling and when we have done all we can to acknowledg our selves unprofitable Servants having only done our duty if we have indeed done that and consequently if God do reward us it is to be ascribed to his own free Goodness and Grace in which alone we place our trust and not at all in our own imperfect Merits §. 90. And now Sir judg whether the Roman Church teaching these Doctrines can with any shew be accused or suspected to have a design to nourish Spiritual Pride in her Children and whether the first contrivers of Schism had reason to publish to the world as the principal ground of their rupture this Article of Iustification and Good Works and in opposition to her to make the people believe that the Faith by which they are to be justified must be a strong resolute Fancy of their Election and an assurance of their Salvation that a holy life has no influence therein yea that Good Works do rather harm then good and lastly that this monstrous kind of new invented Faith once had can never be lost again nor their right to heaven prejudiced by never so many or never so heynous crimes Among them there is no working our Salvation with fear and trembling Assurance of Salvation in them annihilates the great Christian vertue of Hope This in the midst of a world of Sins they will be assured of Salvation to which Assurance Catholics dare not pretend in the midst of all their Mortifications Humiliations and assiduous Devotions Since therefore Sir you are so afraid of Pride as indeed we have all reason to be be you the Iudg which of these Parties affords you best means to avoid it and so best deserves your choice Prot. A short consideration will serve the turn for that purpose Be pleased to proceed 11. Of Invocation of Saints §. 91. The next Point censured by you is the Churches Doctrine touching Invocation of Saints thus expressed in the Council of Trent It is good and profitable to call upon the Saints and to have recourse to their prayers aid and assistance whereby to obtain from God many benefits by the Merits of his Son Iesus Christ who is our Redeemer and Saviour In this Point I shall briefly offer to you these considerations 1. That it is a general Tradition of Gods Church from the begining and not contradicted by sober Protestants that glorified Saints do incessantly Pray for the Militant Church on earth 2. It is unquestionable that we may desire to receive benefit in particular by such their Prayers 3. That it contradicts all reason and modesty in our Adversaries to charge the addressing our Petitions to them for that purpose with the horrible crime of Idolatry since we do no otherwise beg the Intercession of Saints then we do that of our sinful Brethren alive acknowledging God alone to be the Author and fountain of all good §. 92. Hence it follows that the worst title that malice it self can with any shew of reason affix to this our Practice is that it may be esteemed superfluous in case it can be demonstrated that Saints at such a distance cannot hear nor know our Requests in particular Yet neither would this enervate the Churches Doctrine or Practice which by eminent Divines is proved to be laudable and profitable though they did not always hear us neither indeed has the Church any where determined her Belief that they do so But lastly if it be the Church her self and not some private Catholic Writers that you would question about this Subject observe that in her public Liturgy and Mass celebrated on all the Feasts of Saints she continually addresses her Petitions directly to God alone desiring him to grant us such special Blessings by the Intercession of such and such Saints Now it cannot be doubted but that Charity and mutual assistance among fellow members of the same Body is very acceptable to God whensoever and wheresoever performed We are taught to beleive a Communion of Saints we doubt not of their Charity to us our Communion therefore with them must be to testify our joy for their Happiness and our assurance that their Intercessions for us are more prevalent with God then the Prayers of our living imperfect Brethren Therefore since we may and ought on occasions to beg these and to desire God to hear them for our good much rather surely ought we to do the same with regard to the glorified Saints I leave it therefore to your conscience whether you can judg that a separation from Gods Church on this quarrel can be justified Prot. At least I shall never hereafter impute Idolatry to her for this Practice 12. Of Veneration of Images and Relics of Saints §. 93. Cath. The next Point of Catholic Doctrine and which has an affinity with the last regards the Veneration due to Holy Images and Relics which is equally censured by Protestants It is thus expressed in the Confession of Faith set down by Pope Pius the fourth I do most firmly assert that the Images of Christ of the Virgin-Mother of God as likewise of other Saints are to be had and retained and due honour and Veneration to be given to them and also to their Relics §. 94. Now to justify the use which Catholics make of Images the Veneration due to them and that such Veneration is most unjustly and calumniously by some Protestants interpreted to be Idolatry will be no hard task to perform For common reason and the experience of all mankind instruct us that men do naturally desire and delight to think or talk oft on such things past or persons absent from whom they have received some Signal benefit and much more if they expect an addition of like benefits But besides this if the very thinking or speaking of them with affection be it self a Duty advantagious to us and conducing to our happiness we will thank any person and we will