vse vnlawfull And especially in the tenth chapter he confuteth the verie selfe same reason which the A. towieth so roundlie with in this place which was that for so muche as the eatinge at the Idolles feast was but an owtward thing and went no farther then to the bellie therfore it was indifferent to be vsed or left at a mans discretion So the place then the which their is none stronger in the whole bodie off the Scripture to bind and kepe in the lauishe vse off Christian libertie that the A callendgeth for the enlarging of it betonde the boundes that God hathe set in his word And wheras he saith that S. Paule declareth their contentions which seperate them selues from the church for externall thinges S. Paule maketh no mention there either off contention or diuision from the church neither in deed they which abused then their libertie contended withe the weaker but contemned them Also off deuiding them selues from the church in that place is not a worde who soeuer will reade those places with a litle diligence shall easely perceiue that this is the matter which the Apostle giueth owt in that place As touching externall thinges for which the church of Christ may not contend they are suche as there being no commaundement of God directlie to vse them or not to vse them are left in the discretion of the faithful to be ordered the most to Godes glorie and edifiyng one off an other therfore as I thinke termed off learned writers externall for that they come not vnto the conscience nor bind not yt For otherwise that difference off externall and internall thinges is not sufficient to giue to vnderstand which are thinges indifferent or vnindifferent For neither are all externall thinges left to our discretion as I haue shewed and there are some internall thinges as off certeine inward thowghtes and opinions which are not imputed vnto vs for synne whether side soeuer we thinke or iudge of them As if I thinke in my selfe that there was neuer suche a Hector or Achilles or troye as is described off Homere and virgill I sinne not and if I thincke there was neither is that imputed vnto me for synne But these thinges which be in controuersie seing we offer to proue them commaunded and necessarie by the word off God how commeth it to passe that yow lashe owt so manie places owt off Bullinger and Zuinglius against those which trouble the church for indifferent thinges as thowghe yow had alreadie gotteÌ„ that which yow confesse by and by to be in triall that these things which we demaund are not necessarie What order of iudgement is this first to giue iudgement or euer the cause be heard iff yow will needes be bothe partie and Iudge at least yow should haue saued these vntill yow haue as yow promised shewed the vntreweth off our cause And therfore hereafter as often as yow doo importunatelie and vnstill fully heape so many places togither yow shall haue for answere â— plaine blancke To the 16. sect pa. 14. WHether yow haue either scripture or godlie learned author for your warrant in your assertions partely hath bene alreadie shewed and more shall appeare But yow must learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god is neither to propound any thing to the church neither to reiecte that which is propounded by other off credit off any godlie learned zelous man And althowghe this be to much yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al square Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie whether owt off the Scriptures or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs is the best reason that can be browght in diuinitie To bothe I will answere here in the beginninge that the reader may haue wherewithe he maye beware and know how to estenie bothe his and our proufes And first of all seing the Apostle teacheth Timothie that the Scripture inspired by the holie goste is the onelie rule for the minister which he calleth the man off god either to establishe or ouerthrowe what soeuer maye fall in question in the churche And S. Peter saith that who soeuer speaketh in the churche must speake as the wordes of god And seing all the godlie zelous learned men in the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god I leaue it to be considered how dauÌ„gerouslye he mainteineth his answere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god or the iudgement of some godlie iearned man and let it be waied whether this be to set vp an other Doctor in the church then Moses or our sauiour Christ Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diuine matters owght to preuaile I willinglie graunte but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche haue interpreted the Scriptures is the beste reason in controuersies off diuinitie but off the Papistes whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors was neuer hard off And thowghe there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospell maye to the vtter subuersion off it cause this to be printed and flie abroade And that the authoritie off learned men should be the best proufe in diuine matters hathe more absurdities in yt then yt hathe wordes For first their authoritie is here set in the same ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture in that as the authoritie off the Scripturr so it also is set in the superlatiue degree off the best proufe Then their authoritie being preferred vnto all reasons is preferred vnto the reasons drawen owt off the Scripture which in euerie diuinitie cause almoste besides the authoritie are diuerse drawen off the causes and off the effectes c. Thirdlie yt ys absurd to perferr the authoritie of any man which ys onelie his bare affirmation vnto his one reason and discours And seing the ende off proufes in controuersies off diuinitye is that faythe maye be engendred in mindes whiche onelye can be grounded on the worde off God what a miserable yea what â— cursed faith shall that be that is hanged off the authoritâ—â— off men which be they neuer so learned yet are they because they be men Lyers suche as deceyue and be deceyued And wheras he saithe that an Argument off authoritie hathe an other weight in our profession then yt hathe in humane sciences I confesse it hathe so iff the authoritie off the Scripture bee consydered But as for the authoritie off men for the which cause he alledgeth this yâ— is farr otherwise For yff the authoritie off man in humane sciences and in mens matters be off small force off how how muche lesse force owght yt to be in Godes matters yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. sayth For althoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men is Good neither in humane nor diuine science yet
common wealthes that euer were I haue shewed generall commaundementes to the contrarie therfore vnles yow can shewe them repealed by a contrarie acte they are still in force For the examples off S. Peter and S. Paule here tediously repeated I haue answerrd before at lardge Towching the wyping a waie off Ambrose example I did it firste in place which yowr glosse denieth For prouing that no newe conuerte should be chosen to the ministerie allthowgh our Sauiour Christe did chuse S. Paule Ambrose example stoode in the waie and therfore I gaue him in deede the wipe but it was with the sworde off god His choise was also againste the allowed practise off the churche if yow knowe whose voice this is yester daie cathechised to daie a bishop Where he merueilethe that so plaine a precepte off S. Paule is not kepte and callethe them sodaine and momentany minsters whiche are so made And albeit that some differred their baptisme longe after their conuersion and in deede to the time off deathe yet yow doo not shewe that Ambrose was in that â—â—â—ber If he were yow fasten therby greater ignorance vppon him then I haue doone who yow saie speake contemptuously off hym Besydes it is one thing not to be baptized and another thinge to be catechumenus For those whiche were not baptized beinge sufficiently instructed were admitted to the supper off the lorde but in that yt is saide Ambrose vvas Cathecumenus is declared that he was not yet sufficiently instructed in the principles of religion Whatsoeuer yt is I saie yt coulde not be withowte great disorder that a man shoulde be chosen gouernour off the cytie whiche had neuer tasted off the water theroff I knowe Ambrose was a notable man and learned in humaine knowledge yet I mighte withowte either greate disgrace or any contempte saie that whiche I saide And yf this were the place for it I coulde easely shewe vppon howe good grownde I saide that it had bene safer for the churche he had bene better instructed in the scriptures before he occupied the place off Doctor Whereunto I coulde vse his owne testimonie whiche saithe that he was constrained to teache that whiche he himselffe had not learned Albeit he is constrained to agree to that whiche is affirmed yet for the great desire he hathe to strike at me he woulde wreste this epistle owte of my handes then the whiche there can be nothinge more plaine For Cyprian reasonethe againste Fortunatius chalenge off his bishoppricke after that he had fallen to Idolatrie by the generall rule that none owghte to be admitted vnto the ministrie whiche had so fallen And therfore almoste in the beginninge off the Epistle he chargeth him that he dare chalenge vnto him the ministerie vvhiche he hathe betraied as thovvgh yt vvere lavvfull after hauing bene at the alter off the deuil to come vnto the alter of god And after he had shewed the horrible punishementes that the lorde God willed they should be punished with that faulted that waies he addeth Seing therfore the lorde threateneth suche tormentes and punishementes in the daie off his vvrathe to suche as obey the diuel and sacrifice to idoles hovve can he thinke that he maie doo the office off the minister off God vvhiche hathe obeied and serued the prie stes off the diuel or hovve dothe he thinke that his hande can be translated to the sacrifice and praier off the lorde vvhiche vvas captiue to sacriledge and to suche a crime Off thes wordes and diuers other in that epistle yt is euideÌ„te that he dothe not therfore seclude Fortunat. onely becawse he did not repente but becawse yt was not lawfull for those that had sacrificed c. to be restored vnto their mynisterie And therfore he purge the hym selfe and his fellowes in an other place off that he was supposed to haue receiued Trophimus to the ministrie and otherwise then a laye man althoughe yt be there declared that Trophimus did submitte him selfe in all humilitie vnto the churche Wherfore hathe he browghte in here that there was certaine tyme off repentance appointed in Cyprians time c. doothe anye bodie denie yt or maketh yt any thinge to his purpose That whiche he he shoulde haue proued he to wchethe not For againste that he saide Off the examples off the primatiue churche in restoringe off those vnto their mynisterie whiche had fallen vnto Idolatrie I haue shewed the vse off the moste ancientest tymes and he bringeth nothinge at all but onely affirmeth those thinges which no man deniethe and make nothing to the purpose The councell off Carthage whiche ordeined that none mighte be receiued againe to the ministerie which had defyled him selfe with Idolatrie is here reiected the reason whereoff is also added for that the same Concell decreed rebaptizing off those whiche were baptized by Heretikes The Ans maye throwe awaye the authoritie off a councell because of an error in yt withowte either scripture Doctor or councell when I doo yt not withowte either all thes authorities or at the leste off the scripture yt is cried owte againste as an vnlearned shifte and I can not tell what But I am contented yow shall throwe a waie the councell off Carthage which established that error yet yow shall not throwe awaie that wherin it was agreed againste restoring off ministers fallen into Idolatrie How so Because they were decreed in seuerall councels For profe theroff I alledge the wordes off Cyprian And when there be other boothe many and greuous faultes where withe Basilides and Marshal are inwrapped such doo in vaine goo abowte to occupie the place off a bishoppe Seing yt is manifeste that suche men may not gouerne the churche off Christe nor offer vp sacrifices vnto god Especially when off late boothe withe vs and with all the bishoppes in the worlde euen Cornelius also our fellow in ministerie peacable and iuste and whom the lorde vouchesafed the honor off a Martyr decreed that suche men mighte be admitted to repentance but shoulde notwithstanding be kepte froÌ„ the honor of the clergy or ministrie Of this place I conclude that forsomuche as the Councell of Carthage was prouinciall as that whiche was gathered off the bishoppes off Africke Mauritania and Numidia and this generall as that whiche was assembled of all the bishops of the worlde that the councell wherin this was determined is not the same whiche determined rebaptization Againe at this councell Cornelius was and gaue his consente at the other he was not neither woulde euer giue his coÌ„sente And so also is answered that whiche yow cite owte of the seconde booke off Cyprian and firste epistle that for so muche as the councell that there is spoken off was in Stephanus time the bishoppe off Rome it can be by no means vnderstanded off this councel that decreed againste the restitution of the ministers whiche had fallen vvhiche vvas holden before his time Therfore the councell there spoken of was but a
cōmen wealthes and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges and iudges he hath no superior but immediate autoritie vvith his father Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates and gouernementes together is to lay the foundations off many errors Last of all admitting this distinctiō how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church being that which is denied is lefte vvithowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture Here remaineth onely to proue the title Head off the church to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe I muste therfore desyre the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I that Christe is onely the head of the church If Christe be onely head then that I set downe that the cyuill magistrate is head of the cōmonwealthe and not of the church standeth But if the magistrate be head off the church then Christe is not onelie Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowē which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church was gyuen to our Sau. Christe to lifte him aboue all powres rules and domyons ether in heauen or earth Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate then yt ys manifeste that there is a powre in earth vvherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures the fyrste begotten off the dead yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church can not be saide of any creature yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially whom Saint Paul folowed vse to tie that vvhich is verified off one vnto hym selfe alone For he saith he is the head as if he should saie he and none other is the heade of the church Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe ād of the cyuill magistrate yt shall haue two heades which being monsterous is to the great dishonor off Christe and his church So also shoulde come to passe that the church hauing the magistrate for head is accōplished and made a perfecte man without Christe so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked but an addition off that which is to much And if the churche be planted in a popular estate then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen and all haue autoritie all shall be head there and no body at all vvhich is another monster Now yf vve consider the cawses why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body so he ys the cheifest and highest in his churche inseperably knitte with yt and that as the head gyueth sense and mouing vnto all the bodye so he quickneth and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges gyueth strenght to walke therin I say when thes be the causes yt ys manifeste thes thinges nor no one off them ether agreing or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen or earth ether towards the whole church or towardes any partycular assembly that the name off the Head of the church can not be without great violence gyuen vnto any symple creature And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate and mynisteriall head off the church as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body nor from any parte off yt and is able and doth performe that wherfore he is called head vnto all his churche yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth where there can be none in the church And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture that this tytle of head of the church is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme by writers both olde and newe which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation Let vs therfore see vvhether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church not onely in respecte off the whole but in respecte also off a particular congregation haue their approbation Cyprian saith there is but one head off the church The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth can not be the head off him which is baptized because Christe is the head off the vvhole church And in another place that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted becawse Christe is head off the vvhole body which reason should be nothing worthe if ether Saint Paule or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head that is to say spirituall no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title and to bring yt into dowbte whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule or to him yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes as he is head off the church And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes so haue they from Emperours and princes in regard off their subiectes Ambrose saith yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue to be called sonne off the church and in the same Epistle a good Emperour is vvithin not aboue the chutch Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head of the church vvhich is Christe that the name doth onely agree to him that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth Where yf yt be saide that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope yet his reasons are
Wherby also foloweth that where the popular estate or the rule of the beste beareth swaie they can not althowghe they vvould haue an archbishop yea herupon foloweth that ether the Canterbury or Yorke archbishop muste leese his head For yt is concluded off his highe diuinitie that as there is but one prince in the whole Realme so there muste be but one Archbishop His reason the Prince can not els be supreme gouernour off all estates and causes ecclesiasticall to say no more is senseles and hath no knot with that wherunto yt belongeth As if vvhen Roome had both Emperours and consules the Emperour could not be cheife gouernour off the consuls because the Consuls were equall amongest themselues I confessed yt vnconuenient that there should be one Caesar ouer the worlde but that yt may be he alledgeth Caluin that yt is moste absurd to what pourpose what contrarietie is here yt is enowghe for me that there may be and that lawfully a Prince of larger extent of dominion then the archbishop of his archbishopricke althowghe the prince vvould graunte yt him which vtterly ouerthroweth his cause and this being alledged off me afterward is clean passed by For his defense consisteth in this that the Popes widenes off iurisdiction ouer churches ys vnlawfull because he hath yt not of the gifte off Princes and in this that the externall gouernement of the church must be according to the forme and kinde off gouernement in the commen wealth Which is also manyfestly confuted there whence he hath borowed this temony For there he addeth that althowgh yt were graunted that there might be one Caesar ouer all the worlde yet yt followeth not that there may be one bishop ouer all the churches which notwithstanding muste needes folowe if the externall gouernement off the church muste be according to that forme and kinde off gouernement vsed in the commen wealth a For the distinction which supposeth certein ministers of the word and Sacramētes onely and certein to haue to gether with the administration off them the gouernemente also I refer the reader to that before written his vaine cauil that I desire to be vncontrolled off any but off God is answered The D. accuseth me off falsehood for that I charge bim with citing Augustine and Crysostome at large Towching Augustine that he vvas so alledged appeareth firste pag. 583. and both he and Chrysostom pag. 296. Where he saith he vsed that large quotacion onely once in Muscul Cyril and M. Fox he coulde hardly doo yt oftner in the two laste considering that as I remember he alledgeth them once onely but towching Muscul beside the place I charge him with he lefte his aduersary twise to his wide worckes Where he remembreth not that he sendeth to any other writers but with places quoted as particularly as he could his memory vvhich is so miraculouse at other times is here but miserable To helpe yt beside this place off Cal. he sendeth to his Institutes vvithowt any further restreinte as appeareth pag. 132. againe pag. 74. in his former booke for he hath quoted yt in this later Likewise that Damasus calleth Stephen Archdeacon withowt any direction pag. 344. Also alledgeth Gratian Polidore Volateran vvithowte any restreinte 589. pa. I omit that he sendeth towardes th end off his booke to the large feilde off godly interpreters that diuers times he gyueth the booke onely where he might gyue the chap. the chap. onely where he mighte giue the section all which are contrary to that he setteth downe Wherby may appeare what a hard mouth he hath and howe I speake sparingly off this kinde off allegation off his Charged heere by his fonde allegacion off Cal. Institut he answereth I knew there were sundry editions I did so but whether yt be absurd that he should leaue both the beste and moste vsual to take that which is worse and in the handes of fewe onles he mente to play vnder the boorde that men should not vnderstand I leaue to the readers iudgement His reason he had noted yt laboured it and was acqainted with yt is very simple For is yt meete that because he had made his booke a litle heuier with yncke he should be wedded so to yt as to neglecte the commen commoditie how he is acquainted with yt I knowe not but I trust yt hath and shall appeare that there is no more frendship betwene him and his booke in thes matters then betwene light and darknes But yt is foly to reason with him for he addeth Doctorlike that he both hath and will so vse yt still Howbeit how cometh yt to pas that euen in his former booke he hath alledged the later edition belike ether that was some tributary allegacion or els the latter was better to him there then his noted one Howe vniustly he chargeth me with vncerteine direction in ether all or the moste off thes he setteth downe I leaue to be iudged off that I haue said in that behalfe The reste off this diuis with the nexte is nothing but bare and bould affirmacions reproches and repetitions The nexte to it hath nothing but trifling and vnlerned questions before answered That set downe off the inconuenience off many speaking together according to the prouerbe many may sing but not speake at once is not as he saith needles but made way to the necessitie of hauing one which otherwise equal should haue some preheminence in that action The next hath nothing but railing wordes with repetition off repetitions and that beside the matter considering that the cautions I put off the moderator in the assembly off ministers I put not as alwais obserued off the D. Bishops and Archbishops but as those which owghte to be In asking scripture for proofe he dalieth seeking for that he would not find as the scholer the rod he must be beaten with The cocke a glorious and proud birde which will not suffer his victorie to be hidden but proclameth yt forthwith by crowing yet if he be ouercome hideth him selfe Wherin he sheweth a great deale more modestie then the D. which althowgh he haue neuer a spur of argument ether to defend him self or to offend his aduersary yet croweth as high as if the maistrie were in his hande But let yt goe let vs see his fighte To that I alledgrd of Peter chosen by the other Apostels to moderate the two firste actions notwithstanding yt be not set downe he answereth yt is wicked to grounde thalteration of the archbishop and our bishops gouernemente continued long and practised in the beste times of the church withowt yea contrary to the ground off scripture The long continuance onles they haue salte off the worde off God to preserue them argueth they be rotten and suche as caste an euill sauour That they were not in the beste times off the church hath before appeared whether yt haue ground owte off the worde that Peter was chosen by the Apostels
althowgh yt be not expressed yt may partly appeare by that disputation vppon 20 Math. for if all the Apostels were lefte of our Sauiour Christe in equall autoritiâ— â–ª ether Peter tooke that vppon him withowt callinge or els he receiued yt off the Apostels But the firste is confessed vntrw therfore yt hath grounde off the word off God that Saint Peter was chosen off the Apostels vnto the presidentship in those actions And as yt hath bene shewed owte off S. Mathew 20. that none off them was higher then other so off S. Peter yt appeareth particularly in that he and S. Iohn were sent by the colledge of the Apostels wheras if he had bene made cheife by our Sauiour and that from the ascention vnto his dying daie yt had not bene lawfull for the Apostels by making him their Embassadour to haue made him inferior to the resâ—dâ—w I know what the Papistes answer in this poincte but the D. bancke being discouered I thincke he will chaunge his creditors Where he saith yt is contrary to scripture because S. Peter 2. Act. so soudenly defended the Apostels againste the accusation off dronkennes as he coulde not tary for their voices it is ridiculous For I would know first what testimonie of scripture he hath to proue yt doon so soudenly Then who is so sensles as not to vnderstand that the eleuen standing with him could not in a trice ether by voice or finger lifted vp caste that charge off speaking then vpon Peter so that onles he did as it were take the Iewes wordes owte off their mouth no time could wante for that matter He saith further Act. the 1 and 15. considered yt shal appeare allwaies Peters office to speake firste and rule the action and that he was at no time chosen therto by voices much les at euery particular meeting which first is a grosse petition off that in question Then if wee were not hable to shewe by the worde that our S. Christe did not apoincte Peter cheife off the reste yet by what ether sentence or worde owte off the scripture is he hable to shewe that he was appoincted gouernour by him ouer all the reste during his liffe Thirdly to leaue Actes 15. disorderly alledged which is to be handled in the very nexte diuision let him shew vs how he can proue that S. Peter was cheif in that actioÌ„ of praier where yt ys said that all the Apostles lifted vp their voice likewise in the election of the deacons where the calling together off the disciples the exhortacion vnto them the praier for the Deacons chosen the laying on off handes is as indifferently giuen to all the reaste as to Peter All know that one conceiued the praier in the name off the reste that one was president in the election But that that was Peter more then ether Iohn or Iames or any the reste can not be shewed by one title off scripture yet our D. doth assure vs and as he saith owt off the scripture that Peter was the lodesman Where I shew that to suppose Peter not chosen by the Apostels to take vpoÌ„ him the gouernmeÌ„t is to doo him iniury he answereth he was appointed vnto yt off God and lawfully As if to be appointed off God and lawfully could not stand with the Apostels chusing of him or their electioÌ„ were not the electioÌ„ of god For if he meane he was chosen to yt by Christe imÌ„ediatly it is that in question wherof he bringeth not a lettre of proofe But this iudgemeÌ„t offmine hath no ground off scripture or ether learned or auncient autoritie What ground off scripture I haue let the reader iudge off that already and to be alledged in the next diuis For autoritie I haue shewed that Musculus whom he hath made his pillor in this behalfe affirming that Peter vvas in many places the cheife is againste him which saith he was alwaies cheife and for me as giuing therby to vnderstand that this cheiftie varied and was sometimes put vpon other Which is also confirmed by Caluin who in saying the Apostels gaue this vnto Peter for the moste parte that he should speake firste confirmeth both that he had his preheminence off the Apostels and that he had yt not alwaies Secondly I haue here alledged the Scoliaste that all vvas doone by commen consente Wherto he answereth he saith not Peter was at euery assembly chosen cheife which is vaine For if all were doone with consente then Peters forespeaking a parte of that which was done was likewise What wil he say to Gratian his good expounder which in this cause is more fauorable then the Papistes he hath folowed which fetch Peters cheifdome from our Sau. Christe for he confesseth that Peter vvas chosen by the Apostles Wher owte off the scoliaste I shewed that this presidentship off Peter vvas not doone imperiously vvith dominion or povvre he answereth no lawfull iurisdiction not of the king him selfe is so Which smelleth off Anabaptistrie and is before confuted For if the vvorde imperiously vvhich I vsed be taken often in euill parte yet may not I beseche yow a Prince doe princelike vvhich is the vvorde the Scoliast vseth may not the higher power doo thinges vvith powre both vvhich the Scoliaste denieth to haue bene done of Peter But there is in superioritie humilitie If you meane that Princes muste be humbly minded I graunte but yf you meane that humilitie in Princes will not suffer to commaund Princelike in thinges lawfull I denie yt He addeth that in rule and autoritie meaning ciuill there is seruitude If he meane to the lorde I graunte and then yt is nothing to the pourpose If that Kinges are seruantes vnto their peoples which onely can haue place here I denie yt for the cause before assigned Where wee see againe how the D. as if he led Princes in a stringe maketh them to beare vp my Lorde Archbishops traine For seing he seeth yt denied him to rule princelike or with powre for shifte off answer he wresteth the scepter owte of their hand saying the king him selfe may not doe so yf the Scoliast had said that Peter did nothing tyrannically nothing with oppression which two are aswel denied vnto Princes as to bishops then the D. answer would haue serued But when he saith he did nothing princelike nothing by povvr yt is manifest he tawght that the rule lawfull in Princes ouer their subiectes was not meete for Peter ouer the other Apostels Where he addeth the Scoliaste saith Peter rose c. as one that had receiued the Presidentship of the Apostels to let pas his translation which in steed off disciples vnderstanded of all the church hath put Apostles which was peculier then to the 11. he doth but daly For I deny not that Peter had receiued yt but that he had yt giuen off our Sau. Christe immediatly or during his liffe both which are in controuesie there is not a worde Where in the entrance
The second replie of Thomas Cartwright agannst Maister Doctor Whitgiftees second answer touching the Churche Discipline Isay 62. vers 1. For Syons sake I will not hould my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not reste vntill the righteousnes therof break forth as the light and the saluation therof be as a burning lampe Ibid. vers 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers kepe not silence and gyue him no rest vntill he repaire and set vp Ierusalem the praise off vvorld Imprinted M. D. LXXV To the Churche off England and all that Loue the trueth in yt Thomas Cartwright Wisheth mercy and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe THe Church off God so ofte vs scripture not compared onely but figured in the Citie Ierusalem serueth for instruction in this cause For as in yt the wal first broken downe was last made vp againe and that more then 14. yeares after the temple builded so is yt commenly in the spirituall wal off the churche whiche is the discipline the lorde appointed aswel for strenght of yt as for houlding out of all aduersarie power whether yt be corruption off doctrine or manners The first is to be seen in the Act. of thapostles where after the churches gathered by preaching there was an eldership seuerally placed in them to whom the execution of the church discipline doth especially appertain The other may as easily appear to him that considereth the estate off the churche after the Apostles by monuments off those times in which allwaies as this fort off gouernement left by them was first suffred to decaie so the purenes of doctrine decreased vntill the churche yt selfe except a few stones here and there scattered was browght to heapes off dust Yf yâ— be asked why the discipline hauing right to entre with the doctrine findeth not alwaies that fauour amongest men The cause â—s apparant that when Satan can not gain this first point to houlde the doctrine owt off a city or Kingdome he sweareth after the second that yt may be there with smallest fruict and shortest continuance Wherin let I beseche yow be considered his doings against the building off the wal off Ierusalem For if he bestirred himself so in hindering that materiall wal it wil be les meruaile yf for hinderance off this spirituall he trudge to and fro open his whole pack off subtilties and as yt is in prouerb bestovv both â—vet and dry And first touching the persons he vseth in his fight against both they are not much vnlike For in steed off a bastard kinde off Israelites Apostataes from God and his tru seruice which were there the foreine enemies we haue now the Papistes who as shal appear he set in the forward of this battail against the discipline now propounded And as now we haue within the church whiche couered with the name off the gospel and off the teachers theroff giue a more daungerous assault then the Papistes So were there then euen off the Iewes them selues vnder gouerners and Prophetes which secretly and openly opposed them selues As for the practises they are so like in bothe that all which will open their eies maie easely espie the same workeman For as the enemies then placed their cheef strenght in accusations against the church that yf it vvere suffered to laie the foundacioÌ„s of the vval it vvould moue seditioÌ„ and rebel against the Kinge euen so our aduersary to arme the Prince against this cause soundeth nothing more then rebellion sedition and suche like Yf this were not able to discrie or at least to giue warning off this vnfaithfull dealing yet this may That these are the verie weapons off the papistes which not able amongest vs with so great succes to be vsed by them selues as those which are knowne enemies haue bene ministred to the D. that being throwne owte off his hand in whose mouthe is the gospell they might be thowght to haue bene made for defence which were forged for ouerthrow of yt For where Brentius teacheth that the ministers owght not to beare dominion ouer the churches like princes Hosius accuseth him that by the same meane he vvent about to displace Caesar And vpon like occasion that vve vvould ouerthrovv al kingdomes and superiority that men might doe vvat they liste That yf the Almans had once shaken off the Pope they vvould shake off Caesar sone after Yf these be compared with diuers off the D. accusations and namely with that page 455. lin 1. yt will be meruail that onles he were in this point taught by the same spirit Hosius was he could iump so euen not onely with the like accusation but almost with the same wordes But this shall better appeare in discours off this boke where ys shewed not onely that he hathe the like but the verie self same cause with the grossest Papistes I say the grossest for that in some pointes as off the churches election and pastorall residence there are found off them more fauorable to the trwth then he which ioining with Catholike writers both ould and of our time haue written against the estate off the Popish churche in that behalf And that no mans simplicity be abused by an owtward profession off the gospell as thowgh yt were vnlike that they which professed yt should be enimies to the trwe discipline or vncredible that the same whiche cry out off the Tyranny off Antechrist shoulde refuse the moderat and wholsom gouernement of Christ yt may please them to vnderstand that this cause hathe before this bydden the assault not off the Papistes alone but euen off them which make shew off so deadly war with papistry that the greatest force of their resistance hathe bene a feare ether pretended or vainly phansied least the gyuing place to the discipline shoulde draw after yt the popishe Tyranny Capito a man off singuler learning and godlines affirmeth that it was obiected vnto them whiche vvente about to restore the discipline that they vvould be Tyrans ouer the churche vvhich vvas free and cal back againe a nvve popedome M. Bucer SataÌ„ goeth about that by restoring of the discipline the faithfull Ministers should be thovvght to seek ambitously the same Tyranny vvhich Antechrist did M. Beza vvhen the Eldership and excoÌ„municatioÌ„ vvere to be instituted there vvaÌ„ted not vvhich cried ovvt that the popish tyranny vvas by that meanes called back again also that the magistrats office vvas therby in parte inuaded Now if these slaunders be compared with the Answerers al may vnderstand that althowgh the instrments vsed against the discipline vary in tyme and countrie yet the autor misleading some by simplicitie and thrusting other headlong throwgh couetousnes or ambition ys the same in our countrey which was then in Germany Fraunce or Sanoy For that the discipline now propounded is the same whiche suffered this coÌ„tradiction off certein professors off the Gospell shall manifestly appear in this discours and may be
which sylence yff they were handled as they deserue were the fittest answer Howbeyt to shut vpp the mouthe off them which seeke occasion I answer that as the Ecclesiasticall censures shut not owte the ciuill punishementes nor hinder not in any parte their course so the ciuill punishementes can not displace the churche censures considering that as the one is occupied in the punishement off the bodie so the other is conuersant in the instructing off the conscience and we haue a manifeste example off the ioyning off them together in one and the same action in the scripture Where yt was ordeined that he that came not at the daie appointed should be punished by the losse off goodes which was meere ciuill and by separation from the congregation whiche was altogether Ecclesiasticall howbeit it shal be sufficient here to shewe that where as the answerer shoulde haue disputed againste this that the Ecclesiasticall censures together with the ciuille punishementes haue more force to resiste synne then the ciuill punishementes onely not being able to answer to the reason as thoughe his nose blead turnethe a syde and looking another way so reasonethe as if the questiō were whether the ciuill punishement were off greater strenght to holde owte sinne then the Ecclesiasticall which neither is nor shall be the question at this time yt is sufficient that they be bothe necessarie And whereas he asketh whether the magistrate hathe not power to correcte lying vncomely iesting cholericke speaking off which onely question he might seeme to haue some colour of occasion giuen by my wordes I answer that in saying that the magistrate doothe not cōmonly punishe them I neither saye that either he maie not or he will not as he doothe vntrewlie surmise but I had regarde vnto the estate bothe of our comon welthe and of all other which I knowe this daie where there are for the moste parte in thes cases no courtes or iudgemente seates which doo once take knowledge off thes causes it being also a common principell thar the lavve doothe not take care of smal things as it is alledged in one of the lawe cases which is reported in Kinge Henry the eight his yeares And in respecte that suche like matters are onely corrected by thes censures off the churche they are called off certeine consistorie matters And therfore I refuse not onelie the iudgement off the indifferent but off the moste enemy reader which hathe but a sparcke off equitie in him How vntrew it is that either we wringe the sword by thes wordes owte off the magistrates hande or suspende the drawing off yt in anie respecte vppon the pleasure off the eldershipp off the churche In the 9. section pag. 6. as thowghe the imperfection off the churche were not confessed off our partes he setteth him selfe to proue that men commit faultes as longe as they be in this liffe Secondly to proue that the churche florisheth with vs he alledgeth that the common wealthe florisheth wherunto forsomiche as it is with owt the compas off this treatise to medle with the recitall off the breaches off the common welthe and there are other proofes enowghe to conuince the deformities off the churche I will make no answer sauing that he muste vnderstande that in supposing diuers crackes in the common wealthe we are so farre from staining the carefull watche and painefulnes off the godlie magistrate as he surmiseth that his faithfull and godlie trauailes are rather herebie commended who in so sore a sicknes and amonges so manie partely vnfaithefull and partely vnskillfull physicions hathe hetherto kept liffe in yt In the 10. section pag. 6 where he saithe that the threatening off the Prophethe appertaineth to other realmes whiche refuse ād persequute the gospell and can not belonge vnto ours the discipline being as it is propounded and offred to be proued a parte off the gospell muste needes arme the lorde againste the refusers and so miche the more as it coming into the churche as into her home is therfore more dangerouslie reiected And where the answerer in wordes calleth for fruicte off the gospell In this enemitie which he hathe with the discipline off the churche pulling downe the hedge wherwith the lordes orchyarde shoulde be false from the inuasiō of hurtefull beastes he is as freendlie to the fruictes of the gospell as the Easte winde is to the fruites of the earthe For the Discipline off the churche being one off the moste excellentest meanes that the lorde hathe ordeined to cause the doctrine of the gospell to fructifie he is founde a nourice of that barennes againste which he exhorteth In the 11. section pag. 7. he hathe broken his bridell againe and in leuing the matter in hande he run̄eth to his olde accusations wherunto I haue not to answer That there ys no heade off the churche but onely Christ shall be shewed in the treatise off the Archebishopp into whiche question this falleth And leste nothing shoulde be saide for answer to that which I had set downe the glosse hathe here charged me that I make more off the gouernement then off the gospell whiche is a manifeste vntrewthe for I speake of the discipline as off a parte off the gospell and therfore neither vnder nor aboue the Gospell but the Gospell But the reason which he addeth is to be noted for saith he he likeneth the estate off the churche to the wandring in the wildernes Firste off all iff I did liken the estate off our churche now destitute off the discipline vnto the estate off the churche whiche was in the wildernes there is wherwithe that similitude is supported For as diuers lawes were giuen vnto the Iewes in Mounte Synay the practise wheroff they coulde not haue vntill they came into the lande off Canaan euen so the doctrine off the Gospell cannot haue the full practise vnles yt haue therunto ioyned the discipline But to cut off all occasion off cauilling iff I had not fallen vpon them that seeke yt I expressed wherin the bringīg in of the discipline shoulde haue bene like the cōduction of the people into Canaan not in that yt is ether better or not so good as the doctrine off the gospell but in this that as then the people had their full deliuerance when they came into that lande so we by this addition off Discipline to the doctrine off the gospell together with a whole and entier deliuerance owte off the thraldome off the popishe Aegyte might haue greater fredome in the citie off God whiche is his churche The other Cauill is off the same sorte For as I propounded the vpright kinges to be folowed in their whole and full reformacions so those which halted I set before to the intente they should be avoyded in that their reformaciōs were not throwghe and therfore where a reformacion is not full althowghe the wante be not in the same poincte in whiche they were behinde yet therin yt resembleth thē that as they so this is vnperfecte
not right and yet some founde whiche either maye haue there calling according to the word off god diuerse from that which is commonly vsed or els the lawfull callinge by the church ceasing haue it by an immediate calling from god Iff M. D. will be so ignorant as not to know how these two maye stand togither let him be ignorant if he delight in his blindnes what should he doo with a guide After he saith my distinction is not good off lavvfull and ordinarie for that whatsoeuer is lawfull in a churche established the same is ordinarie and for proufe hereoff he addeth that coÌ„mon reason teacheth it but what is that common reason it had bene good yow had set it downe This is a simple confutatioÌ„ which yow vse to proue that in an established church lawfull and ordinarie are all one And iff I should replie and saye that the distinction is good and that common reason teacheth soo if I light off as fauorable a reader as yow my proufe will be as good as yours â–ª but this is but to abuse the time and to delude the world And it is the more vntollerable that yow are not contente to haue said it once withowt proufe onlesse it be also quoted in the margent as thowghe we could not withowt some great damage want this highe sayinge And wher yowe make common reason the iudge hereoff althowghe she be an euill scholemistris oftentimes in these cases yet she teacheth here plainely against yow For iff a man will consider it in naturall thinges yt is euident in the birthe off children that some thing is lawful which is not ordinarie It is nor ordinarie for a woman to bring foorthe thre or fower children at once and yet it is lawfull And if this common reason be considered also in politicall thinges there it shall appeare likewise that thinges are lawfull in a well gouerned aÌ„d established coÌ„mon wealth which are not ordinaâ—rie As if order be taken that none shal clime the walles of the citie aÌ„d the citizens climinge the wall vpon the sodeine comming off the enemie driue him backe no maÌ„ can denie but this acte is lawfull and yet it is clere that it is not ordinarie being otherwise but in suche a case as this punishable But let these goo and let vs see how this oracle agreeth withe the word off god And first iff by a churche established yow meane a church which hathe one vniforme order grounded owt off the word off god yow take that for graunted which is the controuersie for we denie that the churche off England is so established But iff yow vnderstand by a churche established a church of god vvherin vvith other thinges well donne the corruptions which are in yt are by common consent off those which rule the churche agreed vppon it is manifest that in suche a churche there hath bene a calling lawful which was not ordinarie For before the comminge off our Sauior Christ it is confessed that there was amangest the Iewes aÌ„d in IerusaleÌ„ especially a churche of god established the ordinarie ministeries off the priestes and Leuites vsed thâ— prescribed sacrifices offred the law read and taught the corruptions of the churche were not the seuerall opinions of particular persons but the vniforme decrees off those vvhich had the gouernment And yet there the lord raised vp Simeon and Iohn Baptiste whose vocations being extraordinarie were notwithstanding lawfull And that there be no hole for M. D. to hide his bouldnes off castinge forthe whatsoeuer taketh him first in the heade it is to be shewed that in the moste orderlie established churches off god and moste purelie reformed according to the worde of god there haue bene ministers lawfull and yet not ordinary In the vvildernes the churche vnder the conduite off Moses and Aaron was for the owtward face exactlie gouerned according to the rule that god had giuen theroff and yet we reade off the 72. vpon whom the spirite of Prophesie fell vvhich vvas no ordinarie calling as that vvhich endured but for a time as the wordes of the texte howsoeuer they be otherwise translated do declare which saith that they added not to prophesie anie more When was the churche better established according to the rule off the worde of god then in Dauids time and yet then besides himselffe there vvere diuerse extraordinarie ministers For there was the Prophete NathaÌ„ and Gad withe others not off the Leuiticall order whiche onelie was the ordinarie callinge off the churche In the new Testament the churche off Antioche ceased not after it was established to haue the extraordinarie function off Prophetes And onless M. D. vvill saie that all these functions were vnlawfull he must confesse that in an established churche ordinarie and lawfull are not all one And albeit in these times vvhere there is a churche established according to the vvord off god the lord dothe not vse to raise vp anie suche extraordinarie ministerie neither is it to be looked for yet yt is a thinge vvhich may come to passe and vvhiche hathe nothinge in the vvorde off god to the contrarie In steade of that yow saye Iff any church in England doo electe there minister otherwise then the lawes off the churche dothe permitt it can not be excused off schisme yow should haue said otherwise then the worde off god dothe permitte For iff it be shewed that that order established be corrupte and the other vvhiche they folowed in the calling off their minister according to the vvord of god then they neede not to be afraid off the slaunder off schisme And vvhere yovv saye suche and suche parishes muste be loked vnto verely they nede not therin be ashamed vvho looke vpon them But If eare the looke yow meane is to put owt their eye in taking awaie the Minister that they should be the lesse hable to looke vnto your vnfaith full dealing vvithe the churches off god Yow vnderstand not yow saie what I meane when I saie that the choise off the Minister by the churche is suche as the examples off the scripture do shew to haue bene before the Eldershipp and gouernment off the churche be established I know in deede these thinges before haue bene vnhearde off by yow whose ignorance the churche must rue And now when yow are tolde it in so plaine wordes as I nothinge dowbte but a childe off nine yeres oulde dothe vnderstand yt yow can not yet comprehende it Yt was the practise off the Pharises against our Sauior Christe when they had nothing to answere to charge him that he spake not plainlie but propounded thinges dowbtfully that men coulde not tell where to haue him For they come vnto him and saye how longe doest thow holde vs in suspence Iff thow be Christ tell vs plainlie as thowghe he had not tolde them plainlie before This Pharisaicall practise the D. vseth against me diuerse times gropinge at noone dayes and complaining that I am not plaine and open enoughe and going
at large Vnto the fowre nexte sections I answer nothing sauing that where in the seconde secâ— pa. 5â— he saith that master Caluin in his booke against the Anabaptistes affirmethe that the churche as towching the external pollicie can not be perfecte I doo assure my selffe that as in other places so heere he hathe vntrewly saide off Maister Caluin And yt cannot bâ— vnknowne but in Moses and the Apostlâ—â— times ther was a perfecte patruÌ„ of the owtwarde gouernernment off the churches bothe giuen off the lorde and receiued off the churches neither can there be any parte of the owtwarde gouernement off the churche assigned by the answerer which draweth any suche impossibilitie withe yt as he imagineth And iff he saye that ther were faultes committed againste those perfecte patrones that is not to the purpose For the faultes off particular persons doo no more ouerthrowe the perfection off the gouernment whiche was receiued then the faultes off the officers in our churche againste the lawes theroff are to be imputed vnto the lawes them selues wherby that gouernment standeth And as for the examples off the churches off Corinthe and Galatia whiche he alledgeth they rather make against him For that disorder whiche the Apostle chargeth them withe being a slyding backe and falling awaye from that estate wherin they were firste off all set by the Apostell argueth that there was a time when the contrarie off those disorders had place in their churches In the nexte section he alledgeth diuers examples to proue that enemies one withe another conspire against the trewthe whiche no man do which and where I shewed that the churches friÌ„des may doo some thiÌ„ges which some of the churches enemies doo against him whiche in that the admonitors doo certaine thinges with the Papiste and Anabaptistes woulde giue to vnderstande that they are conspired with theÌ„ he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the churche in thinges whiche are againste the churche which is a manifest begging off that whiche is in controuersie Towching that which I sayde he hathe tawght that there is no commaundement in the scripture to put heretikes to deathe althowghe he denie that euer he did so yet beside that he mainteineth the same in the seconde treatise where he leaueth yt in the libertie off the magistrate whether he will doo yt or no and reiecteth all the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe as Iewis he there be moo witnesses off this then his bare deniall is hable to beare downe to whose knowledge I wil so reporte me in this behalfe that if they confirme not the same I refuse not to beare the blame off that reporte where he saieth there is no cause that he shoulde be better thought of emonge the papistes which teache and practise the contrarie althoughe the Papistes abuse this doctrine to the horrible murther off the church yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god and not the Papistes and yow by staying the course off yt nourishe them to the daye off slawghter and shedding off the bloude off the sainctes off god vvhich is their feaste and vvhiche they so greatly delight in and longe after In althat which foloweth vnto the first tractate vvhich beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worthe the answere And as for that whole tractate because yt perteineth to the question off lordeshipp and dominion off the Archebishopps ouer the bishops and off the Bishopps ouer the reste off the Ministers yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate where the answerer shall receiue his replie What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders Chapter 1. pag. 77. THe playster vvherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche by these wordes placing in the churche will not cleane For to let pas the meanig off the admonition whiche he shoulde haue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt and not as he doothe contrary to all lawe of disputation bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth I saie to let that pas yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche and tollerating in the churche For himselffe coÌ„fesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the churche whiche the lorde himself in his worde comÌ„aundethe and ascribing this iudgemeÌ„t vnto them he afterwarde expoundeth that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide that nothing shulde be tolerated c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed c as the A. confessethe and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche as he doothe also confesse yt must folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition was not as he saithe that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion For in that he saithe that their meaning was so farr as he coulde gather that nothing shoulde be placed c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoulde be tolerated c. he chargeth them farther then he was then hable to gather off their booke Afterwarde he chargethe me withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion for that I say that many thinges are commaunded in the scripture vvhich are not expressed in yt He neded not to haue trauailed far to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe iff he woulde haue but considered the wordes which folowe in the same diuision that god hathe set before vs in his vvorde a perfect patrone off his churche But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gramÌ„er schoole doo well knowe that their is difference betweene expressed and conteined betweene expressed and included betweene expressed and implied betweene expressed and gathered He woulde neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies And as for that which I set downe I did yt vppon Good groundes For who is there which knoweth not that thes thinges that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures are not expressed but onely conteined in the worde off God And iff proofe must be had off thinges which is to greate shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off let the answerer know that lerned diuines speake afte this sorte Their wordes be thes Off the father of the Sonne and holy ghoste there is one nature one essence and thre persons In Christ our lorde there be tvvo natures and one person and many other thinges vvhich the catholike churche doothe receiue rather layde oute by the interpretation
off the Scriptures then expressed in the vvordes off the Scripture Here the answerer may lerne that certaine off the cheiff pillers off our Religion by the Iudgement off this councell are not expressed in the worde off God and yet notwithstanding bothe conteined in the worde off God and commaunded to be beleued And where he saithe that he couÌ„ntethe that expressed in the scripture when yt is either in manifest wordes conteined or theroff gathe red by necessary collection I answer that I suppose that there was neuer writer holie nor prophane that euer spake so and that yt byddethe defiance bothe to de vinitie and humanitie being forged as yt is to be feared contrary to his owne knowledge onely that he might giue some colour vnto that absurdytie which he woulde so gladlye fasten on me I saie that it is against his owne knowledge forasmuche as in his former booke and euen in the nexte diuision which is in the 78 page off this his later booke he confessethe this difference off being expressed in the worde and gathered off it which is the same in effecte which I haue saide For he saithe that nothing owght to be tollerated in the churche ' c. onles yt be expresly conteined in the worde off god or maye manifestly therof be gathered Here he plainely opposeth as member off one diuision expressely conteined and manifestly gathered now in this later booke cleane contrarily he maketh gathered to be a part of expressed And in an other place off his former booke as it appeareth in the 24. page off his booke he saithe and none off these circumstances are commaunded in the scripture or by necessarie collection theroff may be gathered Where he supposeth some thinge necessarie to saluation which is not commaunded namely which may be necessarylie gathered of the scripture And iff those wordes commaunded in the scriptures which are generall will not conteine al that which is necessary as his diuision teacheth how much les will thes wordes expressed in the scriptures compas them and iff commaunded and forbidden be all one with expressed as he here affirmeth then did he absurdely to make gathered off the scriptures to be an opposite member vnto commaunded That which I sayed off the argument off authoritie off a man to be neither good affirmatiuely nor negatiuely farther then to induce thereader into somelikinge or mislikinge and not to haue force to compell is apparaunt vnto al which haue any sparcke of iudgement That which is brougâ— out off Aristotle is to no purpose and it maketh also against the A. Forasmuche as where Aristotle saithe that credite is to be giuen to him that is cunninge he speaketh off thinges which haue a likelihoode and may be disputed off on bothe sydes and not of thinges which are to be receiued without gainesaying And I merueile that the A. will not see that amongest men the cunningest in any profession haue in diuerse thinges bene off those which followed them iustly founde fauls with And if he will bothe sticke to Aristotle and interpretâ— him as he dothe that a man ought to beleue euerie one in that as to and profession where in he is conninge then euerie learned Deuine in his profession is to be beleued whatsoeuer he saithe Which beinge absurd and seinge it hathe bene before shewed that an argumeÌ„t of the authoritie of maÌ„ affirmatiuely is not good let vs holde that for somuche as maÌ„ caÌ„not come through his infirmitie vnto the perfectioÌ„ of any thinge which reason being assigned of me is vntouched of the A. and forasmuche as the giftes off god are giuen in measure and not in perfection that an argument off â—he authoritie off man can not enforcevs and that it is proper vnto the Aposties and Prophetes whom the Lorde had chosen to be his notaries and whose handes he helds continually to be without the hazarde off errour To the places which I alledged owte off the worde off god to proue that an argument drawne of the authoritie off the scripture negatiuely is good he answereth that the examples which I bringe be of thinges of great importance and forbidden in other places of the Scripture I graunt they are so and that maketh much against hym for that the Lorde hauinge this aduantage against the Israelites off charginge them that they had doone contrarie vnto his commaundement chose rather to saye after this sorte that they had doone that vvhich he had not commaunded therby to teache his to hange vppon his mowthe And the answerer owght to haue considered that the reason is generall whiche the prophetes vse which otherwise shoulde be no reason at all And it maye be shewed that the same manner off argument hathe bene vsed in thinges which are not off the substance off saluacion or damnation and wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrary In Iosuah the children of Israell are charged by the Prophete that they asked not counsaile off the mouthe off the lorde when they entred into couenant with the Gabeonites and yet that couenant was not made contrarie vnto anie comÌ„aundemeÌ„t of god For howsoeuer yt seemeth to some that vpon the wordes off Moses they owght to haue bene put to deathe being of those nations which dwelte in the inheritaunce off the people off god yet iff yt be considered what the causes were why they might not enter in to league with them which was lest they dwellinge amoÌ„gest them shoulde drawe them to a false worship of god yt will not be harde to vnderstande but that withe condition off yelding themselues bothe to the subiection of the Iewes and to their institution in the Religion of god as thes did they might be receiued There was in deede difference betweene these nations which dwelled in the lande off the inheritaunce off the children of Israel and which dwelt rounde abowte them For where the Iewes might make league with the nations rounde abowte them withowt anie their submission vnto Religion they coulde not doo so with the Cananites c. And where in other nations after peace refused the children off Israell hauing taken a cytie owght to kepe a liue women and children in these ether resistinge them or not submitting themselues vnto the seruice of god it was not lawful to spare ether wemeÌ„ or children But that it was simplie vnlawful for theÌ„ to make league with them vvith any condition I thinke yt can not be shewed for theÌ„ Iosue aÌ„d the princes shoulde haue doone euil to haue kepte their othe with them after they had vnderstanded their frawde cosidering that all othes made againste the comÌ„aundement of god are to be brokeÌ„ And if it be saide that Iosue and the princes did euil in keping their othe the approbation off that facte is apparant in an other place where the vengeance for the lorde fell vppon all Israell by famyn and vpon the housse off Saul particulerly by executing those off his familie because the gabeonites had bene coÌ„trary to the tenure of the
othe made with theÌ„ put to deathe And vnles this be admitted we shall be compelled to condemne the spies which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot and SalomoÌ„ which receiued the Amorytes that voluntaryly yelded theÌ„ selues vnto his obedience and withall vnto the obedience off the lorde as it maie appeare in the bookes off Esra and Nehemias where their posteritie which are there called the sonnes off the seruantes of Salomon hauing of olde time grow ne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Israel ioyne themâ—elues with theÌ„ in the restoring of the temple Wheruppon the A. may vnderstande that the Scripture reasonethe negatiuely againste the Israelites in a thinge wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie Moreouer we reade that when Dauid had taken this counsell to builde a temple vnto the lorde albeit the lorde had reuealed before in his worde that there shoulde be suche a standing place where the arke off the couenante and the seruice off god shoulde haue a certeine abydinge and albeit there was no worde off god which forbad Dauid to builde the temple yet the lorde with commendation off his good affection and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie concludeth againste Dauid his resolution to builde the temple with this reason namelie that he had giuen no commaundement off this who shoulde builde yt Where he woulde grounde this answer vpon the wordes off Zuinglius yt is manifest that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptistes not for reasoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture but that they reasoned negatiuely off an acte or an example And there is great difference betwene them that saye it is no conteined or it can not be concluded off any place in the scripture therefore yt is vnlawfull and betweene the Anabaptistes which reason that therefore the baptisme off children is vnlawfull because it is not founde in the Scriptures that the Apostles did babtize any children Wheras iff they had reasoned thus that the baptisme off yonge children was vnlawfull forasmuche as yt was not commaunded in the scriptures althowghe the grounde off their reason had bene false yet their conclusion had bene faste and sure And therfore iff the answerer wolde haue delte trewly he shoulde not haue fathered this answer of Zuinglius whiche hathe no suche thinge but off the Papistes whose proper defense this is againste those whiche manifie the sufficiencie of the worde off God as that whiche giueth men addresse vnto all thinges whiche are to be doone Maister Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salusbery with this kinde off reasoning whiche the answerer obiectethe againste vs so often vnto whom the Bishopp answereth The Atgument Maister Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely vvhich is taken to be goode vvhen soeuer proufe is taken off godds vvorde and is vsed not onely by vs but also by many of the catholike fathers And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. dispureth negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture for that the Apostel vppon the wordes off Moses in thy seede and not seades concludeth that our sauiour Christe was vnderstanded likewise he shewe the how Origine reasoneth after the same sorte And a litle after sheweth the reason why the argumente off authoritie off of the scripture negatiuelie is good namely for that the worde off God is perfecte In another place vnto Maister Harding casting him in the teethe with the negatiue Argumentes he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus Chrisostome Loo which reasoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the scripture The places which he alledgeth be very full and plaine in generalitie withowt any suche restraincte as the A. imagineth as they are there to be seene Wheras he saithe that the reason that God coulde giue a perfecte patrone off the churche therfore he hathe so doone doothe no more folow then in there all presence off the Sacrament he doothe but trifle withe his reader For I reason not off the bare power off God but haue ioyned his will with his power For my wordes be that the Lorde determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche is bothe hable to doo yt and hathe doone yt Where yt is euidente vnto all men that I grounde my reason not onely off the habilitie off the lorde but vpon his determination not onely off that which he coulde doo but off that he hathe doone Diuision 2. pag. 79. VNto that wherin he was towched for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding in that bothe matters off gouernement and matters of faithe which he deuideth and by diuiding opposethe meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Pope he answerthe not And yet hauing nothing to answer he findeth him selfe the talke of a whole sheete of paper For first off all how ridiculous ys it that he saithe he did not put a case but an example Then whether perteines it that he settethe doune what the Papistes saye off the pope what the pope doothe himselffe That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest that no gouernement owght to be receiued direcly againste the worde off God that he repeatethe and repeateth againe his negatiue argument of the popes supremacie are they not all strey spreaches fraied owt of ther wittes carying not the weight of a fether to the profe off any thinge in controuersie hauing no knot either with the cause or one of them with another Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies and gouernement off substantiall and accidentall of externall and spirituall are altogether vnprofitable brought to auoide his apparant ignorance in diuiding Likewise his dalying in his questions what gouernement I meane which is apparant in the discours off all our bookes off boothe sydes also his groping at none dayes by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusioÌ„ and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision Afterwarde when he setteth him selffe to proue that there is no one finde off gouernement certaine and vnuariable in the churche let yt be obserued how loosely aÌ„d childishelie he doothe yt For beside the firste reason which is a begging of that whiche is in questioÌ„ and the later reason drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage vnles with master Gwalter he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate all the reste of his authorities drawne owte of M. Caluine the heluetian confession Bullinger are quite beside the cause For they are to proue that there may be a churche withowte excommunication As thowghe the question were what thinges the churche of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God may wante aÌ„d yet be the churche of god and not what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off god Or as thowghe the question were how sicke the churche might be and yet liue how meimed
the cōparisō is made would haue cleared this margēt To the Diuision 4. pag. 84. The Admonition saide that nothinge ought to be established in the church vvhich is not commaunded by the vvorde off God the A offended hewith condemned this sayinge the replie shewethe how the saying of the A. is maintenable namely for that thoughe there be not expresse wordes for euery thinge which may be established yet there are generall commaundementes whereby all thinges which can fall into any Ecclesiasticall consultation are to be directed The A. to mainteine his sodeine and vnaduised condemnation saithe that in those thinges which are varied by time and other circumstances and whereoff there is no precise determination in the worde off god yt is enoughe that they be not against the worde of god So that this is the difference betwene the Adm. and him they will haue those thinges not onely not to be against the worde but to be grounded vpon the worde and he saiethe it is enough they be not against the worde Wherin iff there were no diuersitie the Ans is in fault which in his greedines off findinge fault condemneth that in the Adm. which he is constreined to allowe off But in deed they are not all one For albeit it can not be but that which is not agreable vnto the worde off God is against the worde off God and off the otherside that which is not against the worde off God is agreable vnto yt yet he that so saithe that certaine thīges must be doone not agaīst the worde that he wil not also accorde that they should be doone accordinge to the worde gyuethe thereby to vnderstand that there is some star or light off reason or learninge or other helpe whereby some act may be well doone and acceptably vnto God in which the worde off God was shut out and not called to counsaile as that which either coulde not or neede not giue any direction in that behalfe Nowe in this later boocke and in this diuision he saithe that nothinge ought to be doone in the churche but accordinge to the true meaninge off the worde And afterwarde saithe that he agreethe vnto this sentence off mine that in makinge orders and ceremonies off the churche it is not lavvfull to doo vvhat men liste but they are bovvnde to follovve the generall rules off the scripture that are giuen to be a squire whereby those are to be squared out And thus in the end the A. is constreined to yelde him selfe to that which he hathe before founde fault with for if nothinge may be doone in makinge orders off the churche but accordinge to the generall rules off the scripture and those generall rules be commaundementes it folowethe that nothinge may be doone in makinges orders for the church but accordinge to the commaundement off god Which is that which the Adm. did set downe And wheras he woulde make the reader belieue that we haue giuen backe in that we confesse certeine orders may be established in the churche which are not expressed in the worde off God I haue shewed howe the Adm. is very vntruely charged with that sentence there beinge neither the same nor the valew off those wordes to be founde in it This therefore beinge agreed on off bothe sides we might haue here shut vp these controuersies sauinge that the A. holdinge this doctrine in wordes dothe notwithstandinge in deede continue the siedge against it in that all those places which I haue alledged for proof off it he doothe by shamefull and open corruptions essaye to ouerthowe And to the first place whiche is that the wisdome of god in his worde doothe teache men euery good way and therefore the way which ought to be taken in the establishement of orders and ceremonies in the churche he asketh me in great scorne what that maketh to the purpose in deede to proue that which he vntruly and contrarie to my playne wordes in his answer to al my argumētes surmiseth to be my pourpose that is that no lawe ought to be made in the churche which is not expressed in the worde I say to proue this I graunt it is not sufficient but to proue that all thinges owght to be doone in the church not onely not against the com̄aundement but also accordinge to the commaundement of God which was that which I propounded and he denied it is more sufficient then he is hable to answer His answer also which supposeth this sentence directed vnto princes and magistrates onely belike in that he saithe my sonne is vttered withowte all iudgemēt consideringe that Salomon by that title speaketh vnto all the children off god of what callinge soeuer they be as it is manifest by the writer to the Hebrues To the next argument grounded vppon the authoritie off Saint Paul which is nothinge can be doone to the glorie off God withowt ebedience all thinges doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God are withowt obedience therefore nothinge doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God can be doone to the Glory off God to this argument which he calleth vndigested he answereth by repetition off my wordes and that Saint Paul◠meaninge is that nothinge be doone against the worde Which how absurde an answer it is when bothe that is the question and I haue expressly vrged the Testimonye off the worde off God to be required let all men Iudge The next argument which he saithe is euill framed is apparant Wheresoeuer faithe is wantinge there is synne in euery action not commaunded faithe is wantinge therfore in euery action not commaunded there is sinne To this be answereth that the wordes off Saint Paul not to be off faithe signifie that we ought to doo nothinge against our conscience Which both is very absurde and ouerthroweth the sense off the Apostle For hauinge shewed that he which doothe any thing doubtingly is condemned he assigneth immediately this to be the reason because he dooth it not off faithe So that the Apostle calleth that doone not off faithe which is doone doubtingly But he is sayde to doo agaynst conscience which hauinge his knowledge and persuasion setled goeth agaynst yt And where he saithe that the wordes going before which are Blessed is he that condemneth not hym selffe in the thing vvhich he allovvethe do proue that sense off his it is spoken withowt all consideration off the place For how commeth yt to passe that he rather referrethe these wordes off Saint Paule not to be off faithe to this sentence which is farther remoued then to that off doing with dowbte which goeth immediately before yea wherwith it is coupled in the same verse withe a coniunction causall And althowghe the reason sometime be referred vnto that which goethe farther off yet that is bothe rarely and then when by no meanes yt can agree withe that wich goeth immediatelie before Which can not be here considering especially that it could not be vnknowen but that he which dothe against his conscience sinneth wherby the
are pleased with that which is doone as when they are displeased And therfore in that signification which Saint Paul and our sauiour Christ before him take this word offense the churche owghte to prouide that there be no offense giuen to one alone His thirde exception that I added this worde especiallie to the texte is a mere cauill For althowghe I vsed that worde more then is in the texte yet I bothe kepte the meaning and layde yâ— more open vnto the symple reader And wher he saâ—th that the Apostell would haue men more carefull off offending those whiche are not yet come to the churche then those which be off yt yt is altogether vntrew and not onely againste the meaning off the Apostle but against the generall rule off loue wherin thes degrees are assigned that we leuing all men should especially loue those which are members off the same bodye with vs Whereupon yt foloweth that the fruictes off loue wheroff this is one off the principall that we â—iue no occasion off offense owght rather to be performed toward them off the churche then towardes straungers And yâ— being certaine which S. Paul saithe that we muste doo Good vnto all but especially to those which are off the how shoulde of faithe yt muste needes folow off the contrary that we owght not to doo hurte vnto any but especially vnto those which are off the howshoulde off faithe And this degree doothe our Sauiour Christe him selfe note when he thundering againste offences addethe this as an encrease and an higher stepp in synÌ„e if be yt doone againste one of those which beleue in hym And where he saithe that straungers may be so withdrawne wheras there can be no suche feare off those whiche are alredie members off the churche he speaketh bothe contrarie to all experience and directly contrary to the Apostell which disputing in this case of offense saithe that the weake brother perisheth throwghe thes offences Laste off all yff he require authoritie Oecumenius a maÌ„ myche liked of the answerer thiÌ„cketh that he had an especiall care to those that be alredy members of the churche and Bucer hathe a longe treatise wherin he proueth that if either the Papistes or those that are members off the churche muste be offended that yt is more agreable to prouide againste the offence off the churche then off the papistes The seconde rule he aloweth but admittethe no competent Iudges of yt but suche as made the orders as the papistes whiche alowing off the Scriptures take them selues onely able to iudge off the sense off them And if there were but some few as he saithe where as there are many thowsansandes and those all priuate men where there be which haue charge yet I wolde know of the A. whether the spirite off God is tyed so ether to multitude or to autoritie that bothe a fewe and priuate may not espie faultes in the orders which haue bene deuised by many and publike persons To the thirde rule that all shoulde be doone vnto edifying he saithe that yt can not be applied to all thinges generally vsed in the churche but to praiers tounges c. specified in that chapter as if it were not the ordinary of the Apostell to proue the particulers by the generall and so to conclude that the exercises off praing singinge c. shoulde be doone to edifying because all things muste so be doone And where he woulde seeme to â—ye the Signification off edifying onely vnto instruction in the churche yt is manifeste that the Apostell carying yt also vnto thinges indifferent will haue this to be the rule off our priuate actions myche more off suche publike actions as I haue before declared And the wordes which saincte Paule vseth doo not require that ceremonies and orders of the churche shoulde edifye as he surmisethe yt is sufficient to come vnder this rule off the Apostle that they tende to edifyinge and he can not be ignorant that yt is one thinge to builde and another thinge to tende to building For the 4 rule which ys that they be doone to the glory of God he will acknowledge yt to be no rule to direct ceremonies by because yt is a rule to guide all actions whatsoeuer which ys a very straunge argument that because yt is a rule to guide all actions therfore yt is no rule to direct the churches And yff this be a sufficient cause off refusing yt as impertinent to this purpose then that rule which he off thes fowre dothe onely allwe as of that onely which he him selffe browght muste also be iudged impertinent to this purpose and so thruste owte off the doores with her followes For there is nothing whatsoeuer a man doeth whether priuately or publickly in matters either ciuill or Ecclesiasticall but he owght to kepe this rule that yt be doone in order and in comelines Where vppon my wordes And yet so left to the order off the church that it doo nothing agaynst rhe rules aforesayde he noteth that I am coÌ„trary vnto my selfe and contrary vnto the the Adm. Why dooth he note not the coÌ„trarietye Are these contrary Yt is not enough that the orders off the church be not against the vvord onles they be grovvnded vppon the vvord aÌ„d this that they are so left to the order off the church that yt doo nothing contrary to the rules aforesaide Declaring my minde at large before I haue in this last sentence put lesse then was in the other but there is nothing contrary I neuer dissented from him in that he saith the church may in making orders doo nothing agaynst the word but in this that he by reiecting the Admonition denieth that they ought to be cut owt according to the word and commaundement off God I bothe did and doo still dissent from him The article off the Duche church as yt is set downe off M. Beza we doo fully agree with which is that vve ovvght to esteme thinges indifferent by the circumstance off time place and person vveighed by the skoles off the vvord off God. There are diuers thinges besides in this diuision that are nothinge to the pourpose and vnworthy any answere And amongest others what an vntollerable mockerie off the reader is yt that where yt hath bene shewed that the wordes off the Admonition not commaunded in the scripture owght to be taken for that which is either particularly or in the generall commaunded he notwithstanding saith that peraduenture we may shift yt in saying that they ment either generally or particularly Wherin in steade that he should haue proued that they ment not so he maketh a paraduenture off that which hath bene before in so many wordes disputed Diuision 6. pag. 89. IN that yow wounde vpp the lordes daye withe other thinges which yow accounte merely indifferent neither set any marke in the foreheade off it whereby we might vnderstande that yow had anie other estimation off it then off the reste al
men doo see that I had Good cause to charge yow as I did And euen now yowr answer which yow make is expresly againste that which yow haue written before For yow affirme that the lordes daie is in the nomber off those which not to obserue or once to call in question is meere madnes But in your former booke after recitall of the lordes daye and other thinges which yow accounte indifferente yow close vp which this sentence that there is none so simple which vnderstandethe not that the churche hathe authoritie in those matters Yf yt be mere madnes for the churche not to obserue the lordes daye how hathe the churche authoritie in that case And yf yt maye not once moue question off it how can yt take order in yt your manner off speeche wherby yow would goo betweene thes two sentēces and helpe to set at one suche manifest contrarieties are absurde for yow saie that the continuance off the lordes daye so longe doothe proue yt necessarie to be obserued and yet add that yt maye be altered vpon great and especiall considerations wheras if it be necessary to be obserued it may not be altered And if yt maye be altered then it is not necessarie Wherby appearethe how trewly I gathered off your wordes which yow can not auoyde withowte suche senseles speeches Against that which I saide off Ecclesiasticall discipline instituted in the 18 off S. Mathew for contemners and neglecters off the worde and common praiers yt is saide and saide with greate wordes that that place is to be vnderstanded off secret and particuler faultes and not off open and knowne Wheras yt is more then manifest that if the scripture giueth authoritie to reprehende priuate faultes yt doothe myche more authorise to rebuke publike faultes And if those faultes which are doone againste one man miche more those which are doone against the whole churche And iff those which are doone againste the profit off men myche more against those which are doone againste the glorie off god And if vppon refusall off Admonition in those particuler and secrete cases he will haue the churche procede to excommunication how myche more will he that that proceeding be obserued in thes open faultes And yt ys to childishe thus continually to stumble at this that the wordes off the scripture shoulde haue no farther reache then to that speciall case wheroff expresse mention is made in the texte and to leaue no place to argumentes off like of more to the les off les to the more of contraries c. and therbie to cut off all meditation off the worde of God to destroye a greate parte off the vse off teachinge in the churche Albeit in folowinge his owne interpretation the contemners or neglecters off the worde and praiers maye well be subiecte to this rule for it maye come to pas that one maye contemne the worde c. And yet in that manner as it shall be known wne onely vnto one what opinion he norishethe of them yet because that is not alwaies let vs see further what vnskilfulnes it is which the A. doothe so greatly accuse in this allegatiō Saint Paul grounding him selfe vpon this place off our Sauiour doubted not to drawe forthe the authoritie he had to excōmunicate against the incestuous mā whiche was notoriously knowne to haue offended the whole cōgregation ād Hymineus which had corrupted the puretie off the doctrine And iff the A. saie trewly that that doctrine off our Sauiour Christ touching excommunication may be caryed no farther then to that case off priuate and secret iniuries then Saint Paul drewe the sworde and tawght to drawe yt where yt owght not And althowghe there be no mention made off the admonitions yet they muste be off necessitie presupposed forasmiche as it was not lawfull to haue proceeded to that extremitie off cuttinge off by excommunication if the offenders had lefte any place to admonitions and wolde haue suffered themselues to haue bene cured by gentler medicines What also that Saint Paul vpon the publike admonition which he gaue vnto certeine offenders menaceth them that if they admit not his admonitions and reprehensions he will not spare them doothe he not in those wordes giue them the threat off excommunication And if he doo ▪ then yt is cleare that those admonitions being publike were off publike and knowne faultes wherby folowethe that this rule off admonishing and reprehending are forerunners vnto excommunication euen in publike faultes And as he here fighteth against a manifeste trewthe so he hathe himselffe for aduersarie which affirmeth that againste an heretike bothe thes two admonititions which oure sauiour Christe speakethe of and the excommunication afterward owghte to be practised oneles he will saie that an heretike which is knowne to one onelie owght so to be hādled ād that he which is notoriously knowne owght to be free frō that censure The place of M Caluin is altogeter frō the pourpose for I doo not say that priuate admonitions ought to be applied vnto publike offences the Apostell of thē giueth order that suche offenders shoulde be rebuked openly Onely I saide that for contempte and neglecte off the wordes I might haue said for euerie faulte that tendeth either to the hurte of the neighbour or to the hinderaunce off the glory off God there be prescribed in the worde off God admonitions and reprehensions and if those will not serue excommunications but whether the admonitions and reprehensions shoulde be priuate or publike that thinge hanging vpon the qualitie and kinde of the faulte I affirmed nothing Now let vs see what reuel he maketh with the ciuil Discipline appointed by the lawe of God Where before he can giue one answer he muste aske three questions the firste is answered before in the beginninge the laste is handled afterwarde in the 6. Ch. and 5. diuision And as for that parte of the seconde questiō vvhich withe other his sainges folowing surmise that I woulde haue the negltcte of the worde punished by deathe yt is directly against my expresse wordes which hauing shewed the punishementes that shoulde be executed vpon contemners add that there are other punishementes for those which neglecte the worde c. And as to that parte off his question which is whether contemners off the worde owght to be put to deathe yt is as his other questions be of thinges not onely affirmed and set downe but disputed off bothe partes For this is that which we plainlie affirme and bringe argumentes to proue And when he that despiseth the worde of God despiseth God himselfe the equitie of this muste needes appeare vnto all those in whome there is but a corne off the zeale and looue of the glorie off God or rather in whō there is not some pleasure to see the glorie of God troden vnder feete But he saithe that the place off Moses off putting Idolaters vnto deathe maketh nothing to proue this The reason wherof he assignethe to be
because contemners are not Idolaters This is his ordinary faulte that he can not vnderstande that iff an Idolater owght to die miche more a contemner of the worde For contempte althowghe yt be not in an action which doothe vtterly ouerturne the seruice of God as Idolatrie but in one which staineth or cracketh yt onely as is the breache off the Sabbothe is yet shewed to be so displeasante vnto the lorde and so detestable that that which off yt selfe was not deadly onely by this circumstance of contempte was punished with presente deathe which may appeare in him that gathered stickes on the Sabothe daye The breache off the sabothe daie was not simplie punishable by deathe as Idolatrie was myche les so small a breache by the gathering off a fewe stickes yet because yt was doone as the scripture saithe in a highe hande that is to saie proudly and contemptuouslie the lorde commaunded that he shoulde be put to deathe and setteth that downe for a generalle lawe How myche more then shall he which despisethe the worde off God which is the rule off the whole bodie off the seruice off God and off that trew reste From our owne workes and from sinne whereoff that bodelye reste was a figure be punished withe deathe And iff because the lawe doothe not saie in thus many wordes that a contemner shall die yt be not lawfull to conclude that he owght to be put to deathe what wil the answerer saie vnto the writer vnto the hebrues which saithe that he that despisethe the lawe off Moses vnder two or three witnesses was put to deathe withowt mercie For by those wordes yt appearethe not onely that a contemner of the lawe off Moses owght by the lawe to die which is that which I sett downe but also that the writer vpon thâ—â— and suche like places as I haue here alledged gathered that whiche is no where in the lawe found in the same wordes wherin he vttereth that sentence Touching the place off Deutronomy which he saithe is onely vnderstaÌ„ded off false witnesse yt is apparaÌ„t that althowghe yt folowe immediatly the lawe off puttinge a false witnesse to deathe yet it is a generall sentence and hathe regarde vnto all the crimes which are capitall for iff false witnesses be put to deathe and Idolaters or contemners remaine how is the lande purged off the euills whiche drawe the wrathe off God vpon yt or how is a terror stricken into the reste wherby they may be kepte from the infection off that synne And if no punishement but deathe be hable to giue a sounde full enoughe to stricke a sufficiente terror of the synne off false witnes in suche a case how myche more ys yt needefull that there be as brymme and as audible a punishement against Idolaters and contemners of the worde to the ingendring of that feare in others wherby the reste maye be kepte in the feare and trewe worship off the lorde The place off the Chronicles is not answered for yt is more generall then the A. taketh yt and is an exposition off the lawe For where the lawe saithe that he that seruethe straunge Gods shall die this place saithe that he shall die vvhich seekethe not the lorde wher in are comprehended not onely Idolaters but Atheistes and mockers and contemners off God which is that which I had to proue As for that he asketh off the perpetuite off thes lawes yt is afterwarde spoken off In the ende he findeth faulte that I saying there are other punishementes for suche as neglecte the worde of God according to the faulte doo nether tell what they are nor where they be to be founde I thowght that the mowthe of his vnderstanding had not bene so narrowe but yt coulde easely comprehende that if contempte be by the vvorde off God to be punished by deathe that the neglecte off yt owght not to escape the ciuile punishement either in bodie or Godes c. Why I did not recken them vpp I assigned sufficiente cause in that the varying according to the quantitie off the faulte more or les coulde not be sett downe And iff he will see in generall what punishement the lawe of God aloweth of in such cases he may reade in Esra Where beside the punishement off deathe againste the transgressors off the lawe there be also appointed banishement losse of Good or imprisonement as the qualitie off the faute required And if he saye that that vvas doone by the authoritie not off the lawe of God but of a heathen prince the answer is easie that yt is very like that the commission given to Esra and authorised by the kinge vvas drawne by Esra vvhich vvas a cunninge scribe in the lawe of god At the lefte yt is manifeste that he bothe accepted that and amongeste other thinges gaue God thanckes for yt which he wolde neuer haue doone oneles â—t had bene a Good interpetation off the lawe in that behalffe considering that euen the ciuill and politike lawes Wherby the Iewes were theÌ„ and in Iurie especially gouerned â–ª ought to be no other then those which the lorde had prescribed in the lawe And thus let yt be Iudged what Good cause I had to aske vvhat vvas become off the A. iudgement vvhen he set dovvne that there is no Discipline appointed â—n the worde off God for those which shall contemne the worde off god and common praiers Diuision 7. pag. 91. THe answerer saide that there was not one worde in the scripture off pulpites or off sytting at the communion in a worde I shewed that ther was And where he saithe the pulpit was placed in open streete That vvas because off their dwelling in tentes the feaste vvheroff they celebrated For otherwise yt appeareth that suche a highe place in the temple owte off the vvhich the voice off him vvhich spake might be hearde vvas ordinary The reason off calling the doctrine of Moses the chaire of Moses by a metonumie off the subiecte For the adiuncte I will leue to the reader to iudge of for my iudgement off them I saide that they are not lightly to be chaunged and he dispurethe against me as if I had saide that yt were not lawfull to chaunge thes vppon any occasion And beside this disputing againste his owne phansie and not against my vvordes he hathe violently broken into the question off reading and interpreting the vvorde off God vvithowt any the leste occasion giuen therof and hathe also shamefully corrupted the place off Nehemias as shall be seene in the proper place 8. Diuision pag. 92. Here he accusethe me of falsifying his wordes whiche haue charged him vvith saying that yt ys an indifferent thinge to preache the worde of God in churches or howses priuately or publikely wherin he still vttereth his forheade harder then any steele For thes being his owne wordes that the scripture speaketh not a worde of preaching or baptizing openly or priuately at home or in the church doothe he not saye
the same that I laye vnto him What ys indifferent yf that be not vvhich the scripture saithe not a vvorde of hathe not prescribed hathe not determined hathe not appointed all vvhiche phrases he vseth as those which signifie the same thinge And when he addethe in the ende that there is none so symple that vnderstandeth not that the churche hathe authoritie to take order in thes thinges dooth he not affirme the same for the churche hathe authoritie onely in indifferent thinges to take order So that it is more manifeste then the daie that which I haue charged him with ones he hathe saide twise althowghe not in the same yet in as full vvordes And where he asketh whether yt be all one to saye the scripture hathe not determined whether baptisme should be ministred opēly or priuately at home or in the churche and to saye the churche maye make baptisme priuate or publike verelie they are in mine and I thinke in all other indifferent iudgement all one and iff they were not yet as I haue shewed yow haue saide bothe the one and the other And vvhere yow saye that I therby giue the reader to vnderstande that yow affirme yt is in power off the churche to apointe that ther shoulde be no publicke baptisme althowghe I giue no more to vnderstande that then that yow affirme that it is in her power to appointe that ther should be no priuate baptisme yet all men see that this ys at the leste the weight off your wordes that althowghe the churche shoulde abvse her power in apointing alwaies priuate baptisme yet that must be obeied For as when yow saie that the scripture hathe not determined whether the communion shoulde be celebrated sitting standing or kneeling baptisme in fontes basons riuers c. Your meaning is to affirme that iff the churche will haue the communion alwaies receiued kneeling or baptisme alwaies ministred in basone that so it owght to be and neuer either stāding or sitting or in fontes so in saying that the scripture hathe not determined whether the preaching off the worde shoulde be publike or priuate c. and that the churche hathe the ordering of this thinge yow affirme that if the churche should allwaies ordeine that preaching and baptizing shoulde be priuate that so yt ought to be Iff yow had saide that yt had bene in the churches power according to the former rules prescribed to haue ordered whether preaching and administring the Sacramētes shoulde be in the towne or in the fielde in a churche as they call it or in some one mans house or other I wolde haue moued no question againste yow but when yow saye that yt is in the power off the churche to ordeine whether yt should be publike or priuate I can not abide yow for euen in the time of persequution when it is preached in the howse off a priuate man I haue shewed that the churche assembling there the meeting is publike wherunto yow answer not a worde Againste the place I alledged oute off Salomon he excepteth that it is strangelie applied and farr fetched Salomon in the chapter before had shewed how the harlot doothe lye in waite for men secrethe and in the nighte time and so pressed with conscience of the euill which she goethe abowte shunneth the lighte and sekethe secrete corners In the beginninge off this chapter he comparethe the wisdome off God in his worde vnto a noble woman whom he opposethe vnto the Harlot and shewethe How she off the contrary parte doothe not lie in waite or seeke corners or night to hide her selffe in or whisper in the eares off men but exalteth her voice and speakethe in the moste open places and corners off streates where the greateste concourse off people is wherupon it may appeare that iff the A. ether will or vnderstanding were at home and not far from him this place had bene nere enowghe the pourpose For iff the worde muste be taught in suche sorte as it maie beste be conueied vnto the knowledge of moste men and leste be charged with the seeking off corners or the couer off the night and yt is manifest that that is better doone when yt is preached publikly then when yt ys preached priuately yt must folowe that by that saying of Salomon yt is prescribed vnto the churche that the preaching owght to be publike And if there be not onely examples off Christe and off his Apostles but also a plaine commaundement as I haue shewed to preache the worde openly then yt folowethe that yf the churche haue power to order whether the worde should be preached publikely or priuately yt hathe power to order contrary to the commaundement of our sauiour Christe And where he saithe that the worde off god maye be taught prtuately and that a man may exhorte priuately that is nothing to the purpose For we speake of the order which owght to be keepte in the exercises that concerne the bodie off the churche and not of the priuate exhortations teachings and admonitions that ether the minister owght to vse towardes the seuerall persons off his flocke or one priuate man towardes another or the father off a howsholde in his familie c. And this is so farre from helping off him that it makethe altogether againste him For as yt is not in the churches power to forbyd thes priuate teachinges admonitions exhortations or to ordeine that thes teachings c. be publike because the lorde hathe commanded thē to be priuate so yt is not in her power to take awaie the publike preaching of the worde considering that the lorde also hathe commaunded yt And therfore yt ys vntrew which he set downe that the scripture hathe not determined whether the worde shoulde be tawght priuately or publikely For by priuate men yt hathe determined yt shoulde allwayes be doone priuately by publyke persons also yt shewethe how and in what case yt shoulde be spoken priuately and how and in what case publikely contrary wherunto the churche can not determine and iff she determine a 100. tymes she is not to be obeied And wheras vppon that that neither the place nor the nomber off Persons be off the substance off the wordes and Sacramentes he woulde conclude that it is in the power off the churche to make the preaching and administring off the Sacramentes publike or priuate he maye aswell saie which he saide in his former booke that yt is in the churches power to take order whether men and women shall come clothed or naked to receiued the Sacramentes considering that to come either clothed or naked is not off the substance off the Sacramentes Where he owght to vnderstande that there are diuerse thinges annexed and hanging by which being commaunded by the worde off god are no more in the churches libertie to alter then yt is in her power to change the daye into night Howbeit as I haue shewed that the place otherwise priuate being by the order of the churche appointed for the assemblie off
the whole churche is for that time of the assemblie publike so yt may be well said that the noÌ„ber which meete in that place which is so apointed by the churche to heare the worde off God how small so euer yt be can not hinder the publykenes off that assemblie The places quoted in the margente to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacramentes are handled in another place That which is alledged owte of an article of the Suche churche that thinges othervvise indifferent doo after lavvfull commaundement after a sorte chaunge theyr nature we willinglie subscribe vnto howbeit withe any thinge which is here in coÌ„trouersie it hathe no knot at all but is a wandring sentence which hathe no fellow For yt is not debated here what force off authoritie the thinges haue whiche the churche ordeineth but the questioÌ„ is altogether what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order The nexte diuision wherin he requireth answer vnto the place off the Corinthes off doing all thinges decently and orderly ys answered in that I haue shewed that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies is therbye tyed not onelye to place nothinge in the churche agaynste the commandement off God but is bounde euen according to the commaundement to frame her orders in indifferent thinges Wherin the answerer althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vsed for the proofe off yt doothe I suppose agree with me and therfore there was no cause he should haue required any answer Caput 2. Diuision 1. pag. 95. IF he would haue proued that which I denie he shoulde haue shewed that thes authorities affirmed that the churche in making lawes off thinges wheroff the scripture hathe not precisely determined neede not to haue respecte to the generall commaundements off the scripture before receiued but that he is not hable to doo with any approued sentence And albeit he hathe subscribed to this sentence before yet in the ende off this diuision he beginnethe to sâ—lyde into his former error saying that in matters not prescribed in the scripture he can not tel whether to resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but vnto councells stories and doctors As thowge the scripture were not the loode starre vnto the churche in her decrees towching suche thinges and as thowghe the firste churches vvhhich had not suche stories c. had not sufficient addresse in the light off the worde off God to make constitutions by I graunte the church by stories c. vnderstandeth of their antiquitie but the knowledge of their antiquitie maketh litle or nothing to know how profitable or conuenient for the churche they be vvhich being that onely vvhich is looked into in ther establishing is drawne from the scriptures and not from antiquitie Howbeit because he pretendith agreement in this that there be certeine thiÌ„ges lefte vnto the order of the church with this coÌ„ditioÌ„ that they be doone according to the generall coÌ„mandements off the Scripture we will houlde him by his former vvordes and will not suffer him to breake froÌ„ vs vnles he doo not onelie priuilie nibble and bite abowte but in manifest wordes eate vp his former saying Notwithstanding in the great plentie the A. hathe off places for the proofe off this which we denie not let yt be obserued what partly vnproper partly vngodly choise he hathe made The first sorte off Testimonies owt off the auncient writers and councells are off off those which are in controuersie as whether bishopps maie haue suffringanes whether there owght to be metropolitanes c. Wheroff althoughe he bringe no testimonie owte off his antors that they are in the churches power to order yet he settethe them downe as thowghe there were neuer question moued off them and as if he had gained them by stronge hande off reason The seconde sorte are off those thinges which beinge determined by the worde off God off or on are owte off the churches compas to take order in As is that which he reciteth owte of Iustine off the deacons carying the brede of the holy supper off the lorde to those which were not present at the action off the supper and that which he alledgeth owte of the councell of Neocesarea that no man should be minister before 30. yeare off his age Likewise that which he bringeth owte off the Amyran councell that a minister can not sâ—ll the churches rightes especially in that sense the councell meaneth which is for his owne priuate profit The first of these is coÌ„trarie to the institution and the laste being sacriledge are simply forbiddeÌ„ in the worde of god The Scripture also determining that a man off those giftes which be required off the Minister off the word maie and if nede require owght to be receiued vnto the ministery and shewing further that those giftes fall into yonger yeares then 3â— yt muste needes folow that the churche determining flatly that none shall be receiued to the ministery before those yeares shuttethe the doore off the ministerie vnto those to whom the worde off God settethe yt open And also that this Councell is altogether owte off place alledged considering that it determined not off this as off a thinge wheroff the Scripture had not giuen sentence but as off a thinge vnlawfull by the Scripture and for that purpose it alledgethe the example off our Sauiour Christe which preached not before he was 30. yeare oulde Thes thinges daungerously set downe off the An. as indifferent which are not I thought it necessary to giue the simple reader warning that the Answ measure wherwithe he meteth indifferent thinges is vnsealed Ther is a thirde sorte owte off Tertull. de corona militis â—d prax Basil de sancto Spiritu Wheroff beside that diuers off them were neuer conuenient some off them vnlawfull they are all suche as the authors doo not permit to the order of the churche but vnder a false clocke off tradition put the churches necke vnder a seruile yoke off them And wheras he would faine saue thes places owte off the fire by saying that althoughe some grew in time to superstitioÌ„ and that one of his autors gaue to myche vnto vnwritteÌ„ traditioÌ„s he doothe but burne his fingers the places he can not saue For yt behoueth him to shewe that certen thinges not determined in the word off God are in the churches power and thes places yff they proue any thinge proue that the churche is bounde off necessitie to certaine thinges wheroff there is no commaundement in the worde off God for the which cause they are alledged off the papistes from whom it is not vnlike but they were borowed But yet it appeareth that there were thinges in the churche not expressed in the worde I graunte and more then that thinges contrarie but by what right yt doothe not appeare And in deede iff the answerer had light vppon some weywarde aduersarye that woulde haue debated this question with him these places wolde haue giuen him greate
aduantage considering that bothe the ceremonies are for a greate parte naught and the opinion off the necessitie off them a greate deale wors And Ieromes wordes also in tying the later churches vnto the customes off the ancient which are not against faith albeit they be smoothed by translatinge praesertim namely and with his exposition of matters off faith yet euen as they are set downe off him ouerthrowe the churches libertie in thinges indifferent For althowgh they should be inconuenient and vncomely yet the matter off inconuenience and vncomelines being by the Ans no matter off faith the churche must still be clogged with them nether can it by that rule shake them off There are a fourthe sorte of places owte of the aunciēte fathers wherin he putteth the greateste confidence and vpon which he hathe laide greateste weight and therfore by handes set ouer againste them moueth the reader to laie sure hould on them Thes places drawne owte off Ambrose vppon the Ephes and of Tertull de virginibus velandis that of Ambrose being as hathe bene shewed very corrupte is also a conterfaite as shall after be noted The other off Tertull is a flat and a plaine Montaniste yt is not vnknowne that Montanus helde that there was no sufficient instruction giuen by the Apostles vnto the churche but that there were onely certeine principles off Religion giuen by them being vnperfect and were afterwarde to be finished and polished by the conforter whiche himselfe did forge This poison Tertullian hauing druncke he lefte the Sauour off yt in diuers places but in no place more brimly then in this which maye appeare by the comparisons he vseth off likening the churche off God in the Apostels time vnto a tree whose fruicte was not blomed and vnto one which is in his base age and the churches after the Apostels times throwghe reuelatiōs suche as he imaginethe the Apostels were not hable to beare allwaies marching forward towardes a greater ripenes in fruicte and perfection in age And if the D. had bene a litle awakened he might haue smelt the fraude euen in thes wordes which he hathe bene ab vsed by For when he imagineth a nother rule off conuersatiō and leading of liffe of a Chirstian then that which hathe bene giuen he might haue iustly suspected the sentence seing the rule off conuersation comprehended in the commaundementes is vnchangeable And when he addeth that that should be doone by the grace off God receiuing increase dailie vnto the ende he did not obscurely touche the head off his error which is that there shall be still vnto the worldes ende greater graces off the spirite off God giuen to the churche generally then hathe bene before in the Apostels tymes Wherbie appeareth that the places which the A. will haue the reader laye so faste houlde of are thornes not to be once touched withowte a hedging gloue in one hande and a hatche◠in the other We willingly subscribe vnto the Iudgement off M. Caluin alledged here And where the Ans woulde make peraduēture the reader beleue that by the wordes off pollicie and gouernement lefte to the iudgement off the church Caluin meaneth to make thes pointes in cōtrouersie at the churches disposition it shall appeare bothe by his seuerall sentences of thes thinges that he holdethe them vnchangeable and by the exposition off M Beza his wordes the same in effect with thes off Maister Caluin which cometh after to be considered It remaineth that seing the answerer woulde oppresse vs with the authoritie off the fathers We consider whether there can be any fitter places browght for the maintenance off the Admonition then the A. hathe alledged for him Augustin VVhether yt be questiō off Christe or vvhethet yt be question off his churche or off vvhat thinge soeuer the question be off I say not yf vve but iff an angel from heauen shal tel vs any thinge beside that yovv haue receiued in the scriptures vnder the lavv and the gospell let hym be accursed And lest the Answ should restreine this generall saying vnto the doctrine of the gospell so that he woulde therby shut owte the discipline let him heare what Cyprian saithe The Christian religion saithe he shall fynde that ovvte off this scripture rules off all doctrines haue spronge and that from hence doothe springe and hether doothe returne vvhatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doothe conteine And euen Tertull himselffe before he was imbrued with this heresie off Montanus giueth testimonie vnto the discipline in thes wordes VVe maye not giue our selues this liberty to bringe in any thinge off our vvill nor choose any thinge that other men bringe in off their vvill vve haue the Apostels for autors vvhich them selues brought nothing off their ovvne vvill but the discipline vvhich they receiued of Christe they deliuered faithfully vnto the people And if the sentence were any thinge worthe which he browght in towching the discipline owt off Tertull yt maketh against him For in that he will haue that correction off the discipline to haue the authoritie of the holy goste speaking in his fantastical cōforter he declareth that it is not a thinge which hangeth vpon the will of mortal mē And that in indifferēt thinges it is not enowghe that they be not againste the worde but that they be accordīg to the worde yt may appeare by other places Wherehe saieth that vvhat soeuer pleasethe not the lorde displeaseth him and vvithe hurte is receiued And in another place he saithe that the scripture denieth that vvhiche yt noteth not And to come yet neerer where he disputeth against the wearing of crowne or garland which is indifferent off it selfe to those which obiecting asked vvhere the scripture saithe that a man might not vveare a crovvne he anwereth by asking vvhere the scripture saithe that they may vve are And vnto thē replying that yt is permitted vvhich is not for bidden he answereth that yt is forbidden vvhich is not permitted Whereby appeareth that the argument off the scriptures negatiuely holdeth not onely in the doctrine and Ecclesiasticall discipline but euen in matters arbitrarie and variable by the aduise off the church Where it is not enoughe that they be not forbidden vnlesse there be some word which dooth permit the vse of them yt is not enoughe that the scripture speaketh not against them vnlesse it speake for them and finally where yt displeaseth the Lorde which pleasethe hym not one must off necessitie haue the worde off his mouthe to declare his pleasure Whether I commonly vse to propounde thinges in controuersie in bare affirmacions or denials withowt reason and whether yowe applie the scriptures better then I and howe true yt is that yowe haue in yower former booke alledged more scriptures then I did in mine all which thinges this glosse affirmeth I leaue yt to the Iudgement off the reader Cap. 3. Diuision 1. pag. 100. IN the first whole page there is nothing to be answered yt being shewed
that yt is not our question which the A. dooth so shamefully affirme whether the scripture haue expressed all externall ceremonies c. In the next page vnto me shewing that the place off August to Casulanus is against hym for that where he would proue that certein thinges are in the churches power the wordes which he alledgeth say that the decrees of the forefathers and coustomes off the people off God are to be obserued tying the church to the decrees and coustomes off those which went before he answereth that August giueth a rule vnto priuate men and not vnto the church Wherein he condemneth him self off hauing alledged that sentence cleane beside the cause For it is manifest by the wordes immediatly goinge before that he alledged it to proue the autoritie off the church in thinges indifferent neither can yt in any other respect haue any bonde with that which he pretendeth to proue And nowe that yt is shewed howe vnfitly the place is alledged he shifteth his footing and in steade off a rule towchinge the church he maketh yt a rule for priuate men and in steade off shewing the libertie off the church he sheweth the bondage that a priuate man is tyed by Where I conclude against hym off that sentence off Augustine that we ought to followe the coustomes and orders off the Apostels and off the primatiue churches seing yt ys certein that they were our forefathers and the people off God and that we owght not to followe the Papistes which are neither the people off God nor our forefathers to the first off folowinge the Apostels he saith there were certeine thinges conuenient onely for their tymes which are not to be folowed Wherein onlesse he meane those thinges which are in controuersie yt is nothing to the pourpose and iff he meane them yt is a manifest begging off that which is in demaunde Vnto the seconde point off not taking the Papistes coustomes and decres he referreth me to other places Where notwithstanding he neuer answereth this argument off Augustin and so in pretence off a fitter place he hath taken a longer day Where he noteth me of ignorance in that I saide I could oppose Ignatius and Tertull vnto August and Ambrose towchinge the fast vppon the Lordes day saying that there is no difference betweene them th one part speaking off the Saturday the other off the Sonday I am contented to beare his charge off ignorance But is there any man so forsaken off all not learninge onely but common reason which dooth not vnderstand that thes propositions differ and fight amongest them selues yt ys a detestable thinge to fast on the Lordes day which is the Iudgement off Ignatius and Tertull and yt is lavvfull to fast on the Lordes day Which is the Iudgement off Augustine set downe off him selffe And when Ambrose speaking not onely off the Sabbothe off the Iewes but generally willeth that vvhatsoeuer the coustome off the church be in that behalffe off fasting yt should be folovved dooth he not manifestly ouerthrowe his saying which saith to fast on the Lordes day is to kill the Lorde And euen in the case off the fast off the Iewes Sabbothe which Casulanus demaundeth counsaill off yt appeareth there was great disagrrement betweene the aunciēt fathers consideringe that in the Canons which are attributed vnto the Apostles it was ordeined that if one were founde to faste on the Lordes day or on the Sabbothe one onely exepted being a clerke he should be deposed and being a layman separated from the supper off the Lorde If I haue off ignorance set the fathers together by the eares as he saith let vs see howe with his knoweledge he can part them and set them at one in this behalffe That the fastes which were kept in the tymes off Ambrose and Augustine and longe before and their allowance especially off the Lentenne fastes Were corrupte and prophanations off the true vse off fast yf neede were as I haue in part so yt might in more wordes easely be shewed That the counsaile giuè for the keeping of those superstitious fastes might haue place in a straunger and priuate mā which owght not to stand towardes a Citisen and hym that hath charge yt is apparent And yet bothe thes the Answerer would beare downe with wordes and nothing but wordes Where the answ saying that he knoweth nothing in the place off Augustine or Ambrose towching fasting which may not be obserued withowt iust offense may be taken either to speake of the places which I alledged thouching merite off fasting or the places which him selffe alledged I will rather esteme vntill I knowe the contrary that he ment off those which he browght him selffe then together with the slipp off standing daies off fast he should also fall flat by opinion off the merite in fasting And so I would haue the reader to take him that there be no offense taken at this place so doubtfully left Where he bringeth me in concluding that because the auncient fathers erred in some thinges therfore they saide true in none my wordes cary no suche sense But for so muche as they erred and euen in this matter off fast which was in hande they owght to haue no further credite then their authoritie is waranted by the word off God and good reason and that therfore the Answ which presseth their bare autoritie withowte any warde off the word of God or assistance of good reason ether browght of him selfe or fetched from them bringeth an intollerable tyrannie into the church of god This I gaue to vnderstand which because he durst not in plaine wordes gaine saie he hathe tourned my wordes vnto another sense Cap. 3. Diuision 2 pag. 103. Augustine saithe that the feast of Easter Pentecoste c. are the statutes off the Apostles and commended to the churches and addeth that they are not conteined in the scripture Whereuppon I concluded that there is some thinge by this reckening commanded off God to be obserued not conteined in the scripture and consequently that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scripture whereby we may be saued To this the Doct. answereth that yt is a pretie and sound collection I haue in deed for shortnes sake trussed that into twoo or three propositions which to put in full and comptere argumentes required a greater nomber Howbeit the soundenes off the collection is apparant to all which will open their eies And because the Ans will yeald no obedience vnto the truthe vnlesse she taking him by the collar haue her handē vppon his throat the foundenes off the collection shall thus appeare vnto him What soeuer was decreed off the Apostles and commended vnto the churches to be obserued is necessarie but some thinges by Aug. and the D. not conteined in the word off God were decreed and commended by the Apostels vnto the posteritie of the churches therfore some thinges by Aug. and the D. not conteined in the word of God is necessarye to be
they haue nether generally nor continually bene receiued Where he alledgeth Zuinglius vsing a sentence off Augustine not muche vnlike to confirme childrens baptisme yt is to be noted that Zuinglins vsed not that sentence but in the confirmacion off a thing which hath certeine testimonie owt off the word off God as hath childrens baptisme whereit could not be dangerous and then yt is to be obserued that thereby is ouerthrowne his whole answer For Zuinglius taking that sentence off thinges which haue a necessarye obseruation in the church off God aÌ„d can not be chaunged putteth to flight his whole answer with the defense theroff which supposeth Augustine to haue gyuen this rule off thinges indifferent And therefore either the A. is abused in vnderstanding thes places off thinges indifferent or els Zuinglius in vsing this for the necessitie off childrens baptisme gaue his aduersaries great aduantage whilest they might haue answered with the D. that that authoritie off the Apostels is suche as the church vpon consideration may alter And where he alledgeth M. Caluin as one which had vsed that rule off Augustine I answer that yt is one thing to alowe the sentence off a writer and another thing to take some aduantage off it when his aduersarie presseth hym with his authoritie A man vseth some time that defense prouoked by the manner off assault off his ennemie which he would not doo iff he might choose his owne fight and it might serue M. Caluin in part for arm our against the bare autoritie off Augustine vrged off the Papistes which is not of proofe against the shot off the word off God. Where he saieth that the Papistes haue no wicked thing which ether hath bene generally obserued or whereoff he is not able to shewe the first autor I answer that it is well the church standethe not in neede off this defense off yowres For if the Lenten fast which in Augustines time had bene by longe coustome receiued if holy water holy oyle the superstition off praying towardes the East which are off those traditions that in the place by him alledged owt off Basile are attributed vnto the Apostles yff those I saie and suche like be against the word off God let hym tell howe he will cleare the Apostels of being autoures off these corruptions which are fathered of them by men off suche credit onlesse he flye to this rocke which by the doctrine off traditions he goeth abowte to vndermine that is to saie that the Apostles haue left in writing whatsoeuer they would haue the churches obserue For what autoritie soeuer he bring to shewe who were the first inuentors of these thinges yt being humane is counteruailed by them which haue caried them vnto the times off the Apostels Where vppon on that I saide that all the commandementes off God and off the Apostels are nedefull for our saluation he maketh such a terrible owtcrie as if all the church had bene set on fire I dowbt whether for the vanitie of the accusation I should vouchesafe yt of answer which for the strong and bitter wordes might seme to require a large defense Howbeit let him vnderstand that when I speake of all the commandementes of God and off the Apostels nether by the deduction off that which I handled nor by any Iudgement not altogether peruerted could I be thowght to meane any other commaundementes then those which perteine vnto vs And iff I had met with the vainest trifler and hawker after syllables which can possibly be yet the sentence I set downe is sufficiently fenced against all his greedines of snapping at yt For the Ceremoniall lawe and personall lawes giuen in times paste being nowe no commaundementes off God and the Apostels can not be comprehended vnder my wordes off the commandementes off God c. And iff a man leuing the deduction off the cawse which I had in hand will staie in the bare wordes which I vsed then euen bothe cermoniall and those which were giuen to particular persones albeit they be not to be doone yet are they for our better instruction in the will off God needefull for our saluacion To the argument which I vsed that iff Augustine would haue vs doo those thinges which the Apostels vsed in the churches not committed to writing then muche more he would haue bene off aduise that we should kepe that which is committed to writing towching their gouernement off the church he answereth nothing In the thirde diuision pag. 107. to that I found fault with off the second rule off Augustine which is that yt is madnes ether not to kepe or to reason off that vvhich is vniuersally obserued off the church he answereth that was a rule for Augustines time and not for all times Wherein he first condemneth him selfe off wandring from the cause which to shew that some thing may be established in our church not commaunded in the scripture alledgeth a rule that belongeth not vnto vs Then it is manifest howe helpeles a shift this is considering that the rule is generall and as generally gyuen as any other the rules which the A. comendeth vnto vs out off Augustine Beside that I alledged that euen in August time yt was wicked to giue any such autoritie to the decree or custome of men as not to enquire into yt which because he durst not denie he left vnanswered And whereas he addeth if it be not repugnant to the word I shewed that Augustine could haue no suche meaning which althoughe he confesse in one word contrary to that which he set downe yet in the same page lest the truthe should get any victorie at his handes he dooth in effect denie yt For he saithe that Aug. hath sondry times in suche rules made this exception iff they be not against faith c. Where yt is manifest that this exception is of those rules which are diuersly obserued and which he openly opposeth vnto this rule and suche as this is off the necessary obseruacion off thinges The place vnto the Gall. was needefully opposed For if there be commandementes off the Apostells vnto the churches and thinges which yt is madnes not to kepe or to enquire into not writen there ys something necessary to saluacion which S. Paul preached not considering that the whole summe off his preaching is cowched in writing The place off Augustine off abrogating ceremonies otherwise indifferent he answereth was not for his pourpose Howbeyt of his pourpose had bene to haue boulted owt the truthe yt â—â— cleare that hauing this cawse in hand whether ceremonies in them selues indifferent owght to be remoued he would not haue dissembled yt As for that he chargeth me with leuing owt off thinges before in the middest and after and thereof hath almoste fylled a whole syde it is vtterly vnworthy any answere considering that I haue left nothing owt which is in controuersie nothing which I doo not willingly confesse nothing that he hathe any aduantage by yea I left that
men beare witnes that bothe here and almoste euery where yow wringe my wordes clean contrary to my meaninge and therin I am well contente the Iudgemente remain with the reader And althowghe I am fully perswaded that ther was no occasion taken off euill by this doctrine yet if any weare it beinge the doctrine of the holy Goste whoso euer hathe taken occasion of euill hathe without repentance borne his punishemente and so shall yowe moste assuredly in that daye wherin the mouthe off wickednes shall be stopped Yt maie not be passed by that he in the begininge of the firste of thes sections matched the lawes off the Iewes whiche were the lawes gyuen by God him selfe vvithe the lawes of the moste barbarous and Prophane Tyrant that euer was suche is the reuerece he beareth to the lawes of god Note also that where I saie that I vvill ioyne vvithe him that the transgressions off the lavve vnder the gospell are to be seuerelyer punished then they vvere vnder the lavve He in pretendinge and makinge a brage that he woulde ioyne slyppethe me clean a syde and saythe that he will ioyne withe me that the magistrate is not bounde to the iudiciall lawe off Moses for the manner off punishinge as thowghe that were any thinge like that whiche I propounded And in that he answerethe no one worde to the two reasons whiche I alledged that is to saye for that bothe the knovvledge off the lavve is greater novve then thē and other gyftes off the spirite off God vvherby the lavve shoulde be better kepte more aboundantly povvred oute novve then then he dothe not onely slyppe a side but turnethe his blinde partes towardes me Nowe to returne backe to the Diuis pag. 123. I leaue to the iudgement off the reader howe importunate an aduersarie the D. is vvhich requireth answer of that which hath been so often answered In the next Diuis p. 124. seeking to mainteine his logicke in diuiding and defining he maketh him selffe pytifull to all that euer saluted that scoole For what an absurd saying is yt that becawse the definition off a generall thing agreeth vnto his particular therfore yt is the definition off the particular As though euery thing vvhich vvere verefied of an other were by and by the definition off it or as thoughe the same coulde be the definition of the generall and of the speciall And what a miserable defence of his diuisiō is yt which to proue that his three last partes are not conteined vnder the first alledgeth that they are not all one with the first But as I promised I will leaue this to the learned reader that I leese not the tyme in confuting off these tryfles The rest off his section is answered before In the next beside the sentence which I denie and he vntruly fathereth off Zuing. that in Ceremonies thinges are to be vsed in the church which are not conteined in the scriptures ▪ There is nothing which maketh any thing vnto the questiō For where he saieth that I mislike that of Zuing. If they be not repugnant to the vvord I haue tould him before that I neuer found fault with that but becawse he condēned the Ad. which will haue thē caste in the mould off the word off god And as for Maister Bezaes sentence repeted here off discipline left in the order off the church and that some thinges doon off the Apostles are not alvvaies to be follovved off vs whereby it seemed the D. would make the reader belieue that he meaneth this off the pointes of discipline nowe debated yff I should herein charge him with vntrue dealing vppon Maister Bezaes booke off epist. Which declareth in so many places and wordes that there is a Discipline off God left vnto his churche vnchangeable and precisely determined in the word off God and howe he maketh the partes thereoff the same which the D. fighteth against with might and maine he would paraduenture saie that he could take no notice off that which was not yet brought to light But when the same booke from whence he drewe thes outorities mainteneth those partes off discipline towching the Eldershipp the consent off the church in Eccesiasticall elections the right institution off Deacons c. as necessarye which he will haue arbitrarie he owght to haue vnderstanded that those thinges which M. Beza noteth vnder the name off Discipline left at the order off the church are nothing lesse then these which he would insinuate Which he might yet easelier haue vnderstanded by the place which he alledgeth out off the Corinthes that leaueth yt not in the churches power ether who shall gouerne or what they ought to doo which must gouerne but howe that gouernement which is prescribed may be vsed most decently in regard off circumstance off time c. For euen in that place the Apostle defining off certen pointes of discipline as that vvemen ought not to speake in the church c. declared sufficiently that he ment not to leaue the gouernement off the church in her owne disposition and order But what M. Beza ment by this arbitrarie Discipline yt shall yet better appeare in the next tractate off the Election off the church where this here spoken generally shall there belaied open by example the reste off this Diuis is answered In the next Diuis I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader whether I haue truly gathered off his wordes As for the defense he maketh to proue Truly and Purely all one for so he must if he mainteine his answer the first reason he bringeth that a man may preache true thinges and not truly is cleane ouerthrowne by his owne answ for to ouerthrowe that which he falsely attributeth vnto the Adm. that the word is not truly preached becawse the Ministers are not duely called he saithe that the reason is not Good becawse ho we wicked soeuer the man be which preacheth yet he may preache the true word off God. Here ether the Ans must make to preache true thinges and to preache truly all one or els he hath not answered to the argument he supposeth the Adm. to vse The other is for that S. Paul vseth these wordes in truthe for syncerely Wherein beside the former fault which is the contrarietie with him selfe he should haue learned that that maner off speach is taken off the Ebrues which as they call a lie not onely that which is spokē but that which is doon or imagined against the truthe so likewise contrary Which maner off speach not being receiued in our tounge is fondly and out off time pretended considering also that the translatiōs in our tounge as in others haue shunned that phrase as that which they could not reache vnto Tract 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the minister Cap. 1. Diuis 1. Off the Tryall off ministers in learning and conuersation THe replie standeth vpon the certeine and vnfallible grounde off the worde off God which is that the
churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Ministery without good tryal off his sufficientie Then yt is vpholden off the wordes off the texte that twoo were set vpp and caused to stand before the congregation For after that sainct Peter had declared what maner off man he owght to bee which should fill vp the voide place off Iudas immediatly S. Luke sheweth that twoo were put vpp as if he shoulde saye consider whether thes he suche or no as ought to chosen and which agree with that which is required off him that must supplye this place The reason wheroff was for that all the men which where in the churche at that time were not capable off that function hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our sauiour Christe continually from the begininge off his preaching vntill the day off his ascension And vnles that S. Peter mente to subiect those vnto the tryall off the churche which were to be chosen why instructed he the churche and gaue a rule to seuer and trie them by After the churche agreed eyther by voice or by silence that they were suche as behoued S. Peter wente forwarde and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte And that this is the plaine and naturall order off that action he that hathe but one eye may easely see The scripture is shorte and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges and touchinge certein pointes off a storie leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader sometimes which was doone before by expressing that which was doone after other sometimes that which is doone after by expressing that which was doone before Whereoff yff neede were yt is not harde to shew diuers examples And theroff is that sentence so often vsed off the Hebrew Doctours 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Scripture stayeth yt selfe vpon or presumeth an vnderstanding reader withowt the vvhiche yt shall seme very vnsufficient that ys most perfect and vvithowt the which a greate portion off the vvorde of God ys loste And vvhere as yow saye that yt is certaine that there was no tryall because they were sufficiently knowne first yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte that they were sufficiently knowē And considering that as yt comethe comōly to passe in a persequuted churche there were by al likelihood some lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to thē althowghe they vvere well knowne to others Thē the questiō is not whether they vvere examined or no but vvether they vvere set vpp to be tried so that iff there vvere a proferr off tryall althowghe no tryall folowed the place ys aptly alledged For albeit they were knowne to the vvhole companie so that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour or other thinges vvhiche are in the compas off the churche to iudge of yet that ys no cause why they shoulde not be offered to the examinaciō Nether is yt reason that the knowne habylytie off some one or twoo shoulde breake an ordinary lawe in the churche off god And yow that haue serued your selfe more thē once or twyce vvithowt cause as shall appeare off the manner of ciuill elections to ouerthrowe the Ecclesiasticall might here by the consideration off them haue bene delyuered from this abusinge off yowr selfe and others Yow knowe in the election off followes and scolers where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be chosen be neuer so sufficient and there sufficientie neuer so well knowne to all to vvhō the choise belongethe yet the offer of themselues to be examined is so necessary that if that be not they cā by no meanes be chosen If therfore mans lawe in suche small elections hath suche force that yt will giue place to no mans excellencye or singularitie how muche more owght the lawe of God vvhich byddethe generally vvithout exception that they shoulde be tryed vvhich are promoted to the ministery in so greate and weighty an election to kepe her force Where yow say ther was no other cause off presenting them then that which is expressed in the text tell me what cause is expressed off presentinge them in the congregation surely none that I reade those two which I alledged in my replie are gathered but none is expressed So that yf there vvere no other cause off there presenting then that vvhich is expressed there shoulde be none at all and that action off the Apostles should be to no purpose What expresse wordes are there in the texte contrary to this tryall or at the lest offer off triall the vvordes shoulde haue bene noted the meaning shoulde haue bene beaten owte where vve neede your helpe there you forsake vs vvhere the meaning is cleare and vvithout controuersie there you trouble your selfe and vs boothe Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt must be followed wholy saith the answere This is very definitiuely and magistrally said and being a dangerous error as that vvhich tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifest heads of Christian religion is notwithstanding farced with scoffing questions in derision off the truthe I neuer learned nor I doo not vse to add or take away from the word off God I expounde the scripture and gather off it vvhich is not to add and in saying that something is not to be follovved off vs I take nothing away for I confesse yt to be so as the storie reporteh And althoughe that parte be no example to follow yet euen now and to the ende yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine But if I take away from the scripture because I say that some Parte of that action is not to be follovved you do muche more that saye nothing theroff ys to be followed I distinguishe beweēne that which was for a tyme and that which is perpetual and to distinguishe is not to dismember Al the reuelations I haue are owt off the reueled worde off God I knowe that this parte off this action touching the examination ys to be followed because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture thother not so for that yt hathe not the like confirmacion This spirite off slumber whearwithe the lorde hathe striken yowe in that yowe say that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obserued wholely shall better appeare when I come to yower answer of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke where this is handled No doubte saith he this is an extraordinary example As Archidamus said to his son̄e beinge to venterowse and boldhardy either put to more strēght or take avvaie some of this courage so I must admonishe yow that either yow woulde come stronger withe argumētes or els goo softlier to thes doctoral determinatiōs Is yt without all doubte that all thinges are here extraordinary nothing of necessitie to be followed For so yow say when yow will not haue yt followed in other parte because some one is not to be followed What is yt not necessary
and coper or any other refuse metall And yet their is nothing which the Ans doth suppose may come to passe here which may not happen to them all a part and to the greatest parte off them altogither And therfore for any thing yet alleadged the bishops election is further off then before and the equitie off the churches consent in chusinge off Ecclesiasticall officers more apparant For the Westmerlande Minister I doo not here appointe any certeine parlicular rule althoughe I doubte not there are many wates which the churches vpon the persente occasion shal be able to take but it is answered before in generall that what way soeuer the bishop may take for his knowledge the same may the churche Yow tell me often that it is no matter what I thinke off this or that aÌ„d I desire not that any man should weighe what I saie further then it hath weight off the word off god Which rule if it be kepte in the examination of yours also as I dowbte not it willt we shall not neede to feare any great praie yow shall carrie away at this meetinge I haue shewed in part and more also will appeare how the reformed churches agree withe vs And I am assured that he can not bringe one example off any other church which professeth the gospell where the elections off the ministers depend vpon the pleasure of one Where he saithe none is admitted of the bishop which hath not dwelt a conuenient time in his dioses The scolers of Cambridge go indifferently for orders as they call them either to Elie or Bugden or Peterborowghe and sometime to London and I am sure they can no haue dwelt in all their dioses Therfore either there is no suche law or it is cuill kept And what will yow doe with the Archebishopp may he not ordeine in his prouince so that if yow thinke the diocese so narrowe a place as all those that dwell in yt may take sufficient triall off him that is to be ordeined yet yow answere nothing for the largenesse off the prouince To vvhom is that singulier person borne owt off time and in a darke corner of the bishops chappell before the rest to vvhom I saie is his habilitie so sufficiently knowen if to the Bishop so owght all the rest to others off the diocese how can he And vvher dothe the booke prescribe any suche rule that for some suche singuler person there may be suche a darke election so that for any thing that I know it is still at the bishops pleasure Sure I am there haue bene in that sort admitted vvhich for any singularitie that gaue them any commendation to the ministerie might haue well bene in the taile vvith a nomber of the reste And the ende off notifyinge the daie off orders vvhich yow say is especially that there may be resorte thither of suche as haue any thinge to obiect against any that is at that time to be admitted into the ministerie is as I think but a shifte to serue this turne the confutation vvherof may be fetched from the Bishopps bull vvhich being set vp vpon the church dore as by the sounde of a trumpet to gather an armie wheroff the greatest parte off of them after the bishops hand is laid vpon their heades haue power to inuade the church of God at all occasions propoundeth this as the cheife ende that if any be disposed to receiue orders he should repaire to the bishop at suche time and place For it maketh no mention as I remember of any suche ende or at the least that that is the principall ende And if that be so vvhich I will not precisely affirme but referre it to the reader vvhich may haue more assured knowledge then I can haue off it then the vntrewth off this saying dothe notably appeere for if it had bene the principall cause off the settinge vp theroff it ought so to haue bene propounded at the leaste not to haue bene left owt But whether it be or no it is manifest mockerie of the people off God and if it should be approued off the Bishops vvhich is here alledged I caÌ„ not see how they could deliuer them selues from that sore accusation off making merchandise off the people off God by coulorable and deceitfull vvordes For to omitt that the bishop was wâ—nt to goo to euerie church which had a pastor or bishopp to be ordeined as I am able to proue and not all the churches to come vnto him and to let the incoÌ„uenience passe how the churches throwghowt the whole diocese can be lodged especially oftentimes in a litle village wher the Bishopp giueth his orders and to let passe that the bill vvhich is set vp vpon the churche doore is in the latin tonge wherby they can make no preparation not vnderstanding the sounde off the trompet I saie to let all thes passe what should the churches doo there to haue triall off the sufficiencie off the ministers vvhich haue alreadie an incumbent for the Bishops do as well giue orders vvhen the places are full as vvhen they are not And what should those vvhich vvant doo there vvhen they know not vvhether they shall haue one of that creation or of some before one made in that diocese or in an other And if so be they were which they can not be sure that they should haue one off them there being peraduenture fower or fiue vvhich want either they must enquire into the sufficiencie off 40. 50. yea a hundreth sometimes which is impossible or els they may be deceyued For the Patrone and the bishop are not tied nether will be vnto these vvhich they haue made enquirie off but will chuse vvhich they list of all that nombre vvhich hath passed throwghe the bishops handes And if ther vvere no moo made then they wanted yet vvheÌ„ they haue not bene conuersant in that parte off the diocese vvher the voide and vvidowe churches be how can they stand vp against those which they neuersawe nor heard of before Therfore if there had bene any trewth ment by this pretence the Bishop should first haue haue knowen what they be vvhich vvould enter the Ministerie and so giue the churches vvhich vvant vvarning to enquire by suche a day of suche and suche as be suters and vvoers vnto them So that by these and many other considerations vvhiche I leaue to euerie on s estimation vvith him selfe it appeareth vvhat reuerence he hathe of the church vvhich dare offer suche a broken vizard to hide from their knowledge the disorder off the bishops election Where yowe say that he muste off necessitie be admitted into the ministerie before they can gyue any iudgemeÌ„t of his abilitie in teaching c. In deede I heare yow speake sentences and looked for some argumentes for the confirmation off that which condemneth the order off diuers churches which for better triall off their ministers giue them some pece off scripture to interprete They haue bene moued with
some reason and will yow cast yt awaie with a worde But the order of trying his gifte off expounding is good and for the moste parte necessarie For althowghe yt may be perceiued by questioning shortly with him what his vnderstanding is in the misterie off Christ yet his vtterance disposition and memorie giftes necessarie for a minister can not be tried but by suche a profe or by long acquaintaunce with him which can be seldome betwene the ordeiners and him that is to be ordeined And iff in well ordered cities ther is no man admitted to set vpp in any mysterie onlesse he haue offered to the Maisters off the companie some worke for a masterpeece and declaration that he hathe skil in that he will open his shop for how muche more in the ministerie off God owght it to be prouided that before he be allowed to worke in the great misterie off our saluation and laye hand to the framyng of the siluer vessels of the church off God the maisters off the companie especially whiche are the Elders off the church being best able to iudge owght to haue triall how he handleth the goulden hammer off the word off God. But if M. D. which at other times loseth the corde off lawfull vocation will here to pinche me vvith all girde it so streight I answere that neither he which is to be admitted doth it withowt vocation being therunto called by those whiche haue to doo in the electiō nether doo they admit him withowt warrant of the word of god For the lord in com̄aunding to take a sufficient triall of his abitilie ād that precisely before he be admitted doth in that commaundement include all thinges that pertaine therto For as vvhen any peace off grownd is giuen vnto one ther is also a waye to come vnto it graunted withall althowghe the same be not mentioned so the lord in giuing to his church power to trie his ministers can not by any meanes bethowght to haue hedged vp the way which leadeth neerest vnto that triall And beside the reason heroff owt off the word off God ioyned with the practise off diuerse churches We haue plaine examples in the scripture as I haue shewed in my former booke And how dothe not the A. here condemne manifestly the exercise of common place vsed in the vniuersities wherin younge men that they might he better prepared for the ministerie do interprete in there courses the scriptures which haue no admittance or ordination vnto the ministerie I will let yow passe heere with this contrarietie with yowr selffe that yow graunt to euery minister the rule off his flock whiche deni it so stoutlie in other places where yow giue it to the Bishops and Archbishops If yow had found suche a one in me yow would haue made suche hue and crie sufficient to haue raised a whole countrey But I will not presse your contrarieties but wher they be pregnant And so I leaue it to the iudgement off the indifferent reader how well the answerer hathe mainteined the wantes off the booke which were by me in this behalffe assigned Their wordes are to be seene my replie and your answer let the world iudge what forehead there is in him which saith they condemne all as euill and as vnlearned lest I spend moe wordes in prouinge that it is light at noone daies There is more likelehoode that for want of iust triall they might be thowght to denie a lawfull callinge to those which are admitted by the common order But it followeth not theroff that they saie there are none lawfullie admitted for the cause before alledged And it is vnreasonable yow should charge them vvith that vvhich I vvrite or vvith that the second admonition vvriteth Touching the nombre off sufficient ministers in Fraunce I wrote that vvhich I receiued wether it be trew or no it may easely be knowen of those vvhich vvill enquire off it Take yow good leaue to speake all good off the vniuersitie it shal be my recreation after your importunate barkinges yt is my dailie praier it may goo well with her and althowghe I be from her yet I caried some of her boweles vvith me so that whether there be in her either iust cause of ioye or sorowe I haue them in com̄on with her I can take no exceptiō vnto yowr 450. vniuersitie preachers not hauīg the register of the vniuersitie but yow did warely saie knowē preachers and not godly preachers for some of those haue troubled the vniuersitie and other places with popishe leauen of pargatorie free will ād Abrahams besome cut owt by a larger measure then euer our sauiour Christ taught But to le◠the corruption off some and the inhabilitie off other some with the so rare preachinge off certeine that as at the appearinge off a comete or blasinge starr or some other notable change in the heauens so at their preaching there may be feare off some calamitie to come to let all those goe to helpe to make vp this garlond off 450. yow owght not haue forgotten to subducte those which are taken awaie by death those vvhich are thrust owt off the ministerie and musled by the bishops those which are mued in cloisters those which beside the necessarie vse off the vniuersitie remaine there and those vvhich hauing charges in the countrey lurke there These being subducted excepte the accomptes doo rise better then yow shew I feare me that I may cut of from the numbre of 2000. hable ministers in the whole church of Englād which I assigned before as many as yow take from that nombre which I reported to be in Fraunce And alas what are these fiue loues and 2. fishes to so many thowsand churches So that if yow had not doone it at vnwares and had not had an other ende then is false owt we should haue had to thāke yow for this leuie of ministers vvhich the vniuersity hathe bred as that which strēgtheneth the fewnes off hable ministers which I assigned M. D. hand is still on his halfepennie and as Plautus Euclio he suspecteth euery man for his treasure and by putting his hand so often to the sore vvhen he is not touched he declareth plainely vvhat is the greife The feare of spoile off the churches goodes is not vvithowt cause But there was no cause to suspecte it in the Innes off court which off their yearly exhibitions giuen to mainteine there studies haue erected vp three diuinitie lectures more for any thing I know then all the bishops haue doone Therfore yow euill requite this liberalitie with such suspitions Yf the Centurion deserued praise for building a Synagoge and is cōmended by the holie Gost to all posteritie for his liberalitie in prouidinge a place for the preachinge off the word then they for there liberalitie in prouidinge for the minister him selfe deserued a better gratulation then this Yf they had throwen in somewhat into the Corban and botomlesse bagge it should haue bene counted to them for
great liberalitie But this aide which the church getteth by encrease off godlie and hable Ministers receiueth litle thanck But the hatred off this cause draue yow headlonge vpon them as your aduertismentes vvhich followe doo declare As there are some among them that fauour this cawse so there are some that like not off it And yet seing they haue ioined togither yea vvhich is verie straunge made great sute vnto the Bishops that they might of there owne charges prouide suche as in seruinge off them might discharge that vvhich the bishop hath charged him selfe with your suspition off spoilinge the church might haue had a fitter lighting place then vpon the Innes off courte Thus muche against your disordered suspition not altogether from my purpose for it shall serue to shew wherupon I conceiued so good hope of them and off other the gentrie off the realme vvhich haue in diuerse places made the same contribution Yf any haue forsaken the ministerie withowt iust cause they are giltie off a horrible fault but I see yow accounte them forsakers off the Ministerie vvhich yow haue thrust owt suche is your equitie to vvhipp them owt and for going owt also And if they hould any off your tenthes and would be counsailed by me they should yelde them into your handes least in beinge partaker off your non residencie they drink also off plages which belonge therto Wher yow saie I haue not answered in deede if your one mā be wise ād godly and the hūdreth fooles and wicked I haue said nothinge nor meane not now to doo being worthier to be hissed owt then to be answered Yow saie that the 16. Actes ▪ sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off a noble interpretation This is allwaies your fashion either to corrupte the places of the scripture or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of But for what cause dothe S. Luke tell that he was so well thowght of dothe he not shew in the nexte ver to be the same which I haue alledged And therfore Master Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke addeth the word therfore declaringe for what cause that testimoniall was giuen This is your reason S. Luke sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off euill speache receiued him not but vpon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Listra and Iconium I doe not saie that S. Paul would not haue receiued him vnlesse that euerie singuler person had giuē testimonie vnto him vvhich was in those places but I shewed how circunspecte S. Paul was in takinge any into any part off the ministerie and how it is not to be thowght that he would haue vppon the Testimonie off one proceeded vnto any election seing that in one which he him selfe was not ignorant what he was to auoid the euill speache off some he was carefull to haue the testimonie off the church As it cā not be proued ▪ that he would not haue receiued him if all had not consemed therto so may it easely be shewed that if the most part had not liked of him he would not haue taken him For besides that it was against S. Paules maner to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God it had not bene aduisedly done to haue procured the testimonie off the church for the admitting off him into his companie if the churche not consentinge he would haue taken him for that would haue bred a great flame off displeasure betwene the church and S. Paul and should haue bene alwaies shot in the mouthe off the aduersaries against the authoritie of Timothes ministerie yea off Paules also vnto whom he was ioyined for that he had receiued one disaproued of the Christians them selues All which he might by your iudgement easely haue auoided iff either he would haue rested in his owne knowledge off him or els haue addressed him selfe to some one for his testimonie ād not to haue hazarded the alienatiō of the church by com̄ittinge the allowāce of Tim. vnto their testimonial But mine argument is nothinge worthe because it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle Yf this be trew S. Luke was euil aduised to in title his booke the act or deedes of the apostles For it is as much in the ans lāguage as a booke of deedes which christiā mē are not boūd to followe ād yet it was not withowt cause that whē there are cōteined in that booke bothe the doctrine and deedes of the Apost S. Lu. as off the greater parte intitled his booke the deedes or actes of the apostles wherfore dothe he in the begin̄ing of that booke repeating the sum̄e of his gospell by that transition or passage make one bodie of them bothe and bind them as it were in one volume was it not to giue the same authoritie vnto the one a◠to the other to shew that the church had wanted so muche of a perfecte directiō as it wanted of that storie Wherfore dothe he in the begin̄inge shew that our Sau. Christ instructed thē with the cōmaundementes thowchinge his kingdome was it not to teache vs that whatsoeuer they did in buildīge of the church they did it not of there owne heades but by his authoritie And if a cōmanndemēt vnto them be not a commaundemēt vnto vs then haue we no word in the Scripture to warrant baptisme with For the commaundement of baptisinge was spoken to the Apostles onely withowt any further lymytation Fynally vvherfore dothe S. Luke set owt the Apostles fylled vvith the holye Goste Was yt onely to gyue credyte vnto there doctryne that yt should be beliued and not vnto there Actes that they should be folowed yes assuredlie vnto there acres that they should of euerie one according to his vocation where they maye be folowed For the further confirmation wheroff yt ys to be consydered what S. Paul vvrote vnto Tymothe Whom he instructynge how he should behaue hym selffe towardes the troublers off the church dothe not onely call him to the regard off his doctrine but also his conduite or maner off doing Wherby he meant to note his order and maner off doyng in the church off God and publykly for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose off that vvherfore yt ys alledged Sanct Paules pryuate doynges could gyue Tymothy lytle instruction how he should behaue hym selfe towardes the troublers off the Church To the Phillippians also he callethe the Bishoppes Deacons and whole church both to doing off that which they heard and which they had sene in hym Yf therfore S. Paul will haue the churches followe that vvhich he did amongest them yt ys manifest that the Actes off the Apostles are rules for vs to followe And vnlesse this be admitted I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can proue the imposition of handes which I think he will not denie to be necessarie And this is that vvhich M. Caluin doth flatly
vvhich then vvere in vse and receiuing in one off the nation off Canaan into the church vvhich vvas then vnlawfull derogateth nothing from the stablenes of these lawes so the admittinge off one vvhich is incircuncised in fleshe doth nothinge diminishe the vnchaungeablenes off that law vvhich the Prophete there mentioneth I am well content therfore that these two be matched and that they die and liue togither The other place of entringe in clothed withe linnen compared withe this hath no coulour off argument For it dothe not folowe that because the ceremoniall law is abrogated therfore the iudiciall is also Are these your circūstances that declare the meaning off the place let it be admitted that bohte these lawes the one which goeth before the other which followeth after are abrogated doth it followe therefore that this is also of reiecting idolatrous preistes From the ministerie That vvhich is alleadged by the admonition is the 10. verse of 44. chapter and althowghe one of the places alledged by yow be the verse next going before yet the second is the seuenth verse after the place of the admonition Now if it be sound reason which yow alledge all those lawes in the Testament which are so placed that they haue either a ceremoniall oriudiciall law next going before them and another following within the compasse off 7. verses are either quite abrogated or els not perpetuall Which if it be trew fare well Moses fare well the Prophetes fare well the morall lawes off God they may all depart with the D. good leaue nay for that they wil not serue him he thrusteth them owt Before he picked them here and there but this is an engine to ouerthrowe them all at once For I appeale to all your knowledges vvhich haue euerreade the law if there be any one off the perpetuall lawes off God which may not be found in some place off the law and Prophetes so placed as this is and against the which this exceptiō which the D. doth so bouldly auouche may not be made I could I am well assured runne throwgh all the cōmaundementes and by this reason hurle them euerie one owt of the church yf yt were not follie to labour in confutinge of suche phrēsies as these are ād the thing also were not so plaine as none of any reading in the oulde Testamēt can be ignorāte so that his pen̄e is a pēknife to cut a sonder al the scriptures Touchinge the interpretation off the wordes of the Apostle that the ministers being tied should execute their functions as longe as they continue vnblameable I toke the sense vvhich was fyt for my cause and neither against the scope off the Apostle nor any grammer construction Yow saye the greke is if in triall they be found blamelesse Because yow tie me so fast vnto the nombre of wordes where haue yow this translation or in the greeke wordes yow alledge what haue yow to beare thes wordes in triall or shew me whie I may not as we ll resolue the participle into the coniunctine mode by the coniunction so longe as as by the coniunction if as longe as I doo it neither against the trewth nor against the purpose off the Apostle I graunt that sense trew but why may not this also be ioyned seing bothe the wordes and scope off the Apostle will beare bothe yow should therfore haue shewed that these wordes will not beare this sense and yf yow shew me that yet can yow not put me from houlde of that place For as muche as yt is most iustlie concluded that if the ministers must be blamelesse before they come to the ministerie ▪ they owght muche more so to be in the execution off it considering that falles in execution off the ministerie are more daungerous to the church then those before Althowgh triall be made before admission and off thinges past yet is it done in respecte off the ministerie that shall followe Therfore yt agreeth well vvith the triall That S. Paul should giue vvarninge that they should no longer be suffred to Minister then they remaine suche as by triall they vvere supposed to be And where yow saye that it is spoken in that place off deacons yt ys muche more off Bishops And yff a Deacon fallinge awaie from the trewth owght to be put from the charge or honor vvhich he had in the church muche more a bishop But I nothing dowbt but that the Apostel referred this sentence vnto bothe a bishop and deacon For hauing before spoken off them bothe aparte he dothe here ioyne them together in that vvhich is com̄on to them ye◠belōging rather to the bishop then to the deacon And it is as muche as yff the Apostle should saie I haue set before thine eies vvhat be the qualities bothe off the bishopp and deacon looke now none be permitted to come vnto these offices vvhich haue not bene tried before And that this is soo it may appeare for that the nexte verse which is thouching the qualities off wiues is not onely a description what wiues the deacons but what wiues also the Bishops should haue Vnlesse we will saie that S. Paul trauailed in describing off the deacons wiues and lefte the bishopps wiues vntouched which how yt soundeth in other mens eares I can not tell in mine it is absurde Againe if the 10. and 11. verses had bene to be vnderstanded off the Deacons trial Paule and their wiues onlie S. Paule would not haue begonne his 12. verse as he did by a repetion of the name off Deacons For yt had bene enoughe to haue said let them be the husbandes of one wife now when he saith let the deacons c. he declareth that he had discontinued his proper treatise of deacons which he resumeth againe by that maner off expressinge the name off a deacon The sense which I haue alledged soundeth no whit that way that the vertue off the word c. should depend off the good life off the minister What likelihood is there betweene these a minister vvhich hathe fallen into idolatrie ovvght not to be receiued althovvghe he repent and be neuer so holie and this that yow surmise off me that the vertue off the word c. dependeth vppon the holines off the minister Was the spirite off God Anabaptisticall whiche ordeined this first did he therfore forbidd the Leuites approche vnto the table off the Lord be cause he woulde teache men that the vertue off the Sacramentes depended off the holines off the ministers did the churches which vsed and established this order the fathers which taught it therby establishe Anabaptistrie I did not take vppon me to translate the place neither doo I vse for euerie place vvhich I alledge to goo to the translations I toke as I said that which was for my purpose and whiche I thowght warranted bothe by the wordes and intent of the Apostle And yf I shoulde consulte and conferre all translations could yow helpe me to a greeke text that doth translate
of the electe church of God yet that foundation alwaies remaineth that when the question is of an others mans election God knovveth vvho are his So that yow can draw no argumeÌ„t from his election which is vncertaine vnto vs to conclude a certeine election vnto the ministerie Againe why doo yow saie he that is a membre off the inuisible maye be a minister in the visible as thowghe the inuisible church were off some higher nature then the visible or as thowghe the trew membres off the visible church did not make one misticall bodie off Christ with the inuisible Therfore when all commeth to all the reason is nothing els but he is a membre off the church ergo he is fit to be a minister off the church which is very absurd For by this meanes all good order off discipline is troubled in howse and in common wealthe The maister which hath bene deceiued off his seruant which he moste put in trust as for example in the office off stewardship if he giue good tokens off repentance must off necessitie restore him to his place For will he seclude him from his stewardship whom Christ dothe receiue into his kingdome and shall not we think him to be a meete officer in his maisters howse albeit he haue committed adulterie with his mistres which is a membre off the electe churche off Christ And this reason standing common wealthes must goo vpside downe for besides that all those lawes are condemned which debarre men from certeine freedomes and honours which haue bene stained with especiall vices as he that is once conuinced off periurie from bearing witnesse at any tyme c. there maie none either traitor or murtherer be put to death if he be repentante For his pardon is caselie pleaded by the Answ rule that if he be meete to dwell in heauen he is meete to remaine vppon earth and if the lord giue him euerlasting liffe should we denie vnto him this traÌ„ssitorie liffe And not that onely but if he had had an office before it is meete he shoulde be restored to it againe If this be an absurde and anabaptisticall kind off reasoninge in the discipline off the howse and gouernment off the common wealth how is it not the same in the discipline of the church And iff yow sticke so hard to the example off God it is not hard to shew how that the lord remitting the faulte vnto his children vppon their repentance hathe notwithstandinge kept them in sharpe discipline for their faultes all the daies off their liffe bothe in there owne persons and sometimes in there childreÌ„s and in all that belonged vnto them so that yf yow will needes tie the church to the example off goddes mercie and forgiuence that dothe not onelie not hinder these chastismentes and church discipline but also extendeth it further then the church or the coÌ„mon wealth may doo The holie goste by Iethro prescribinge what officers should be chosen dothe not onelie require that they should feare God which is to saie be of good religioÌ„ be wise and valiaÌ„t but also requireth that they be trustie which as appeareth by other places off the Scripture where this here commaunded was put in execution signifieth suche as were faithfull and trustie to the commonwealth and which had of their former life giuen good argumentes off there fastnes that way Therfore if in choise to the greate and weightie charges off the coÌ„mon wealth it is not enoughe that they be of good Religion able also for their wisdome and courage off minde to execute vnlesse they haue bene founde faithfull in that estate wherin they haue liued before how muche more owght that to be obserued in committing the greatest charge that is vnder the sonne which is the Ministerie off the worde And if in common wealthes men vvill committe no greate trust vnto him which hathe deceiued the trust which was put vppon him how much more owght that to be obserued in the church Where as the losse and daunger is greater so owght the trust to be slower and the parties to whom it shoulde be committed more vnsuspected And yet for further confirmation he must vnderstand that for as muche as our Sauiour Christ and S. Paule require that a minister off the word off God should be faithfull in his office as those to whom the choise belongeth owght to haue regard to his former sobrietie continencie in liffe and other vertues to induce them selues to a good persuasioÌ„ off him towching those vertues so owght they vppon his former life to gather suche argumentes of his faithfullnes and trust as therby they may be able to meintaine a stronge and mightie presumption off the faithfullnes which is to come vvhich thinge vvhen they can not doo in one vvhose vntrustines is freshe before their eies they can not haue sufficient testimonie to perswade their conscience that he is of that trust to whoÌ„ they may comÌ„it the church of god For if they looke vpon repentance vvhich he professeth it coÌ„meth alwaies to minde that countenaÌ„ce the eies do lie oftentimes and mouth oftenest off all And albeit vppon good and likelie tokens the church owght to thinke it a trew repentaunce yet it can not be so sure thereoff as it is off the vnfaithfulnes So that in vveighing the repentaunce which is vncertaine vvith the counterpoise of his vnfaithfulnes that is certaine it will be harde to conceiue that strenght of opinion off his â—â—faithfulnes wherupon they may aduenture to put him againe in trust with the church At the leste if there be one fit for the Ministerie which neuer was stained with that fault all men must needes graunt that he is meeter to satisfie the consciences off the chusers then the other vvhich the Ans denieth And as before I haue shewed that the exaÌ„ple of our Sau. Christ in putting S. Paule and S. Peter into the ministerie is not to be folowed off vs So vppon the matter I haue here alledged it may easelie appeare vvhy That is to say for as muche as he knew the harte off man and sawe their cogitations longe before they were conceiued he needed not any time to trie how they vvould behaue them selues in their ministerie nor any either Testimonies or argumentes of former liffe to helpe his persuasion off their fitnes thereunto Therfore he knowing both by the fulnes off the spirite off discretion gyuen hym vvithowt measure and by his diuine knowledge how faithfullie they vvould employe themselues in that mynistrye mighte vvell open the dore vnto those againste vvhom the churche owghte to kepe yt shutte If any man vvoulde here excepte againste this answer vvith the example of Iudas vvhich did so traiterously behaue hym selfe in his office yt ys not vvorthe the answer For vvho knoweth not that that was doone that the Scripture mighte be fulfilled and that for that cawse our Sauiour Christe forseinge the treason to come did notwithstandinge gyue him a place in
that mynisterie So that yf they vvoulde conclude any thinge off that example they muste conclude that the churche maie chuse one which yt thincketh vvill deceyue the truste that ys laide vppon him I coulde here dispute vvhether althowghe he repented trewlie yet forsomuche as he is subiecte to another suche fall as well as any other yt vvere boothe lesse daunger for hym and les hurte for the churche to receiue suche an ouerthrowe vnder an other capitayne neuer foiled then vnder him vnder whoÌ„ yt hathe already bene put to flighte But forsomuche as yt is not so cleare and requireth a longer discourse I am contente to let that passe Yet that maye not be omitted that as in the refusall off a minister which hathe defyled hym selfe withe Idolatrie prouision is made for the safety and securitie of the churche so an eye ys had to a more plentifull fruicte which maie redounde vnto it by hym that is placed in the ministrie And forasmuche as no smale portion off that shoulde be by greate likelihoode turned a waie by restoring suche one as hathe fallen so grieuously amongest other reasons that also hathe force to hinder his restirucion For vvhen S. Paule requireth aucthoritie in a deacon purchased by continuall tenor and as yt weere by an euen thread of a holye and innocente liffe that he might vvithe greater libertie and boldnes execute his office he sufficiently declarethe that suche a fall especially in the bishoppe and mynister taken in the race off his ministerie maketh a deepe wounde into that authoritie and freedome off rebukinge others which is necessary for hym for furtherance off hy mynistry to retaine And as yt taketh awaie from his freedome in reprehending so that which he reprehendethe hathe so muche lesse aucthoritye withe the hearer as yt is not onlye not confyrmed but contraried by his example And yf Tymothe beinge endewed with suche rare gyftes off knowledge and holynes off lyffe had muche a doo to mainteine his authoritie in the churche againste the contempte of his yowthe which was no faulte he had neede haue very extraordinarie gyftes which can deliuer hys mynisterie from contempte ten folde more occasioned by suche a fall then by wante of a fewe years Seinge therfore the vvounde beinge healed by repentance the skarr dothe yet remaine in the eyes of the churche to the blemishinge of his Mynistrie yt ys good he be taken downe and set in some les lightesome place off the churche off God. There was yet a thirde reason vvhiche no doubte moued the churches to keepe this order that this barre off hym from the mynistrie vvhiche had so fallen mighte serue for example vnto other mynisters to take heede For they consydered well that as common wealthes so the churches of God are preserued by rewarde and punishement and that as in the rewarde off some other are prouoked to make after those thinges vvhich are by that rewarde crowned so by the punishement off some other are terrified from doinge that for whiche they see them dishonored Therfore they thowghte yt vnmete that he which had faulted in the qualytie off a mynister shoulde no other wise be disciplined then a pryuate person but rather as his faulte exceded so his correction shoulde encrease Whiche thinge beinge so muche commended in common wealthes well gouerned I see no cause why yt shoulde not be as conueniente in the churche off God so farre and in suche kinde off corrections as are in the churches power And therfore yt appeareth that the commaundemente which is gyuen in Ezethiell and in the booke off the kinges for the separatinge off the Leuytes from their Ministerie which had fallen to Idolatrye was not a lawe for a tyme but drawne from the springe off that equytie which can not be changed And so farr is yt that the gospell hath made this lawe voide that yt hathe also confyrmed yt for yf the ministerie off the lawe were so gloriouse that yt vvoulde not be handled off those which had once fallen from yt by Idolatrie althowghe they did repente howe muche more owghte the mynystrie off the gospell which so surmounteth the mynisterie off the lawe as the gospell dothe the lawe be vntowched off suche as forsaking yt haue defyled them selues with that synne And if for a lesse faulte they were kepte from a lower place in the church for a greater faulte shoulde not they muche more be kepte from a higher dignitie for wheras nowe the seconde tyme he faithe that vnder the lawe there were certeine corporall pollutions which made a man vncleane for a tyme yt proceadethe of too great ignorance off the Scripture either in not knowing in what shorte tyme those polutions mighte be purged or els assigning anie cawse off the Leuytes putting forthe off their ministrie for euer for the polutions which were in so fewe dayes clensed Yowr allegatioÌ„n owte off maister Caluin towching the widowes is nothing for yow nothing to the cause For what if he saye that the Apostell requireth that they shoulde be benyficiall doothe yt therfore followe that respecte shoulde not be had into their vvhole life Yt may be easely vnsterstaÌ„ded that the apostel hauing drawne the office off a wydowe throwghe diuers sortes of good workes becawse yt had bene to longe to recyte all shutteth vp vvith that clause as yf he shoulde saie that I stande not in rehersall off all I will haue her suche as hathe exercised her selfe in euery good worke But I desire the reader to obserue the vnfaithfullnes and open corruption that he vseth in cyting off maister Calu. For his iudgement being not called for but answere required to the wordes of S. Paule he hath taken that which serueth not to the purpose and hathe lefte owte that in the exposition of the same verse which is directly againste that he alledgeth maister Caluin for Whose wordes are these There is no dovvbte bâ—t there vvere vvorshipfull and very reuerent colledges or companies off vvidovves therfore Paule vvill haue none chosen thether but such as be commended by a notable testimonie off their vvhole former lyfe And wheras he asketh howe coulde that be when they had but one parte off theire lyfe knowen Christe not to speake off the Iewishe widowes which might haue led their whole life in good and holy worckes in deede he muste learne that S. Paule dothe not there speake onely off good workes which are the fruictes of faithe but callethe those good workes whiche are cyuilly and in owtewarde shewe and estimacion off men good So that he requireth that those onely be chosen emongest the weomen which were neuer detected off any notable cryme but haue allwaies lyued in an honeste cyuill behauiour amongest their neighboures And thus S. Luke calleth those vveomen religious and honeste which were moued to persequte S. Paul. There was nether trewe Religion nor honestie in them but so he calleth them because they were so estemed S. Paul also saithe off him selffe when he was the enemy off
then a dowsen lines of the place from whence he rente this Hauinge inueighed againste the Popishe election bothe for that in yt one bishoppe hathe all the powre and for the vnworthines off those which were chosen he addethe yt semethe therfore that there ys nothinge so agreable to the ordinance off god and to the oulde institution as that all the vvhole church off the faithfull amongeste a people together vvithe certaine learned and godlie bishopes ad other faithful mē hauinge skill in thinges shoulde choose a pastor and a lytle after Let therfore thes provvde bishops and folish Abbats goo shake their eares for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election shoulde be in the povvre off the churche off the faithfull instructed by the counsels off learned men for as that matter ovvghte not to be in the povvre of one so ovvghte not the rude and vnlearned multitude chalenge vnto yt selfe alone so great vveighte off the election c. Let vs nowe see whether the Ans be anie faithfuller in alledginge Maister Bullinger Firste who denieth that Paule and Barnabas did chuse elders and ministers there When we gyue vnto them the gouernmente and direction off the action there is no reasonable man can Imagin that we shut them owte off the election But iff yow thinke that because maister Bullinger saithe they chose therfore he affirmethe that they chose alone and withowte the churche thes wordes can by no means proue yt his iudgemente in other places quite ouerthroweth yt heare therfore what M. Bull. writeth Those vvhiche thincke meaninge the papistes that the bishops and Archbishop haue povvre to make ministers vse thes places of the scripture Therfore I lefte the at Crete that thovv mighteste appointe elders tovvne by tovvne and againe take heede thovv laye not thy handes rashely of any but vve ansvver that the Apostels did not vse anie tyrannie in the churches nor to haue them selues alone doone these thinges vvhiche perteined ether to the election or ordination other men in the churche shut ovvte For the Apostels and elders did create bishops and elders in the church but communicatinge their counsaile vvithe the churches yea and vvithe the consente and approuing off the people vvhiche dothe appeare plainly by the election and ordination off Mathias c. And there citinge howe Moses did cōmunicate the choise off the magistrates withe the people he addeth And so no dovvbte did blessed Titus althovvghe he had hearde thovv shalte appoincte elders in Creta yet vnderstood that nothinge vvas permitted hym to doo priuatly vvithovvte the aduise off the church And because this place is cited also to proue that Maister Bullinger shoulde thinke that the Election 14. Actes shoulde be made by Barnabas and Paule let the Doctor heare what maister Bullinger writethe in the page before sayinge That the lorde from the beginninge gaue authoritie to the churche to chuse and ordeine fit ministers hathe been shevved before in the second sermone off this decade by the example off the moste eldeste churches in the vvorlde Ierusalem and Antioche vvheroff the one did not onely ordeine seuen Deacons but also Matthias the Apostle the other did set aparte to the ministrie the tvvoo notable Apostels off Christe Paule and Barnabas vvherunto is added that the churches off the gentills beinge instructed or directed off Paule and Barnabas did chuse by voices elders or gouernours off the churche Where also he quoteth the same place off the Actes whiche is here in question Thes was I constrained good reader to set downe that thow mighteste vnderstande that the weapons wherwithe the D. fightethe againste this cawse are not as he falsly pretendeth drawne from the godly writers but ministred vnto him by some owte off the armorie off the papistes whose they onely be The places whiche I alledged proue firste that yt is vsuall in the scripture to ascribe that to the principall in an action whiche is commen to them withe other then that althowghe S. Luke had made no mention off the election off the churche but onely saide that Barnabas and Paule chose yet therby coulde not be concluded that the churche had no intereste in the election but onely this that Paule and Barnabas were the cheife in that action Yff that be ascribed vnto Iosue whiche he procured onely and layed no hand vnto howe much more maie yt be ascribed vnto Paul and Barn. whiche they bothe procured ād had some doinge in and therfore that example of al is moste apte for that wherfore it is alleadged I perceiue there is nothinge so cleare whiche the D. will not essaie to darcken seing he saith that yt rather appeareth that the people permitted the election off those gouernours to Moses The contrarie wheroff manifestly appearethe for after that in the 9. verse Moses had bydd them chuse gouernours in the nexte verse he saithe that the people accepted that commaundmente and thowght off yt as a thinge equall Therfore it is moste vntrwe that they retourned yt into Moyses handes againe for then they woulde haue answered that yt was not meete for hym to committe the election vnto them but rather for the wisdome wherin he excelled to doo yt him selfe And where the D. reasoneth off the 15. verse vpon the wordes I toke c. that phrase dothe rather ouerthrowe his purpose then cōfirme yt for it semethe to haue a relation to the gyuinge ād presentinge of those whiche they they had chosen And the very same Phrase is vsed afterwardes in the 23. vers of the spies whiche were sente to spie the lande which notwithstandinge were not onely sente off Moyses but off the people also as appeareth in the 22. verse and in the booke off numbers where the lorde doothe not onely attribute this sendinge off spies vnto Moises but vnto the people Moyses gaue no further authoritie vnto them then they whiche in ecclesiasticall elections ordeine those whiche were chosen before and confirme the elections whiche are made Therfore as those ordinations exclude not the authoritie off election so this confirmation off Moyses did not deuoure that powre off election whiche he had gyued them but theyr elections and his confirmation made vp a full creation of those gouernours Towchinge the false accusation off pushing at the magistrate I haue answered Those verses off the 22. and 23. off the 25. Actes whiche yow alledge shewe who bore the swate in the makinge of that decree But yet in that the letters were written in the churches and not onely in the Apostels and Elders names and for that the decree is ascribed vnto them by whome the letters are subscribed yt is manifeste that that consente and subscription off the people occupied some rowme in that decree Nether is that alledged owte of M. Calu. any thinge againste that I saied that the people had to doo in yt and gaue consent but giueth asmuch to the church as I in saying the churche committed the matter vnto the decision of the Apostels
churches interest whiche he dothe so plainly bothe here and els where affirme And where yt is supposed that the churche hathe leue to oppose againste him that is to be elected I haue shewed howe manifeste mockerie yt is off the churche off god As for that whiche is saied off maister Bulling and Maister Caluin iointly that they haue affirmed off the significatiō off the worde as muche as he yt is a manifeste vntrwthe For maister Caluin neuer affirmed that the scripture euer vsed that worde to note the ceremonie off layinge on off handes Off M. Bullinger yt hathe bene before spoken There followeth in this seconde rancke Oecunemius whose testimonie is so flat againste the Ans signification off the word lifting vp off handes and therfore also againste the sole election off the bishoppe as a clearer coulde not be required His words be thes yt is to be noted that the disciples vvithe fastinge and praiers did make elections by voices Nowe seinge by the worde disciples Saint Luke and the Scoliast followinge him continually throwghe the storie of the Actes note the people whiche belieued it is manifeste that the Scoliaste dothe both cōclude vppon this place that the people did chuse and cōcludethe yt also of the worde lifting vp off handes Whether in attributinge the same worde vnto Paule and Barnab he meane therby the ceremonie off imposition off handes I will not as in a thinge not worthe the trauaile stande yt is enowghe for me to haue shewed how this testimonie makethe directly againste that whiche the Doctor affirmeth that is to saie that the worde lifting vpp off handes signifiethe in this place off the Actes onely the ceremonie off layinge on off handes For if it signifie bothe the election by voices and the ceremonie off layinge on off hands then our cawse standeth as sure as if it onely signified the election by voices And to this testimonie off the Scoliaste agreeth the same Ignatius that the Ans in his former boke maketh so greate accompte off who writeth thus yt is meet that yovv as those vvhiche be the church off god should chuse by voices yovvr bishopp Wherby not onely appeareth that that author wil haue the churche chuse her minister but also how this worde is vsed off him in the proper signification to note the election whiche is made by voices Chrysostome remaineth which taking the worde for the imposition off handes doothe not exclude the naturall signification Brentius translating Chrysost had folowed that sense I set downe yf the D. can confute him by the greeke example he is worthy off credite Let vs now see what the Ans hath to say against those reasons wherby I shew that S. Luke by lifting vp off handes ment properly the election by voices I may not saithe he teache the holie goste to speake God forbid I should goe abowte yt But shall not he whiche made the mouthe speake and he whiche teacheth all other to speake properly speake properly him selfe I doo not therfore teache the holy goste to speake whiche applie his words to make them agree withe the thinges they signifie but yowr opinion supposeth wante off knowledge off the tonge in the holy goste whiche woulde haue hym signify layinge downe by liftinge vp And where yow saie I trifle becawse he that laieth on his handes muste firste lifte them vpp or euer he can laie them on who trifleth in this poincte let all iudge For who dothe not vnderstande that the name is vsually giuen off the principall and nearest action wherwithe it is doon and not off those actions whiche are farr off accidentall or for the cause and sake off the principall And yt is all on as if a man should call the takinge off a knife into his hande cuttinge off breade because he that cutteth breade muste before take the knife into his hande How be it if there were the same manner off layinge on off hādes in the primitiue churche whiche is in poperie and withe vs where he that is chosen kneeleth on his knees to receiue the bishopps layinge on off handes yt is so farre from any neede to lifte vp his hand or euer he can laie yt on that onles he carie his handes verie vnmanerly like a paire off hanging sleeues he muste let them downe or euer he can can laie them on the heade off him whiche is chosen Therfore althowghe an other mighte vse this poore shifte yet yow which haue vndertaken to defende whatsoeuer the bishops generallie doo in their elections haue if I shoulde deale hardly with yow loste this aduantage Yt is nothinge with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the ould Testament nor that S Paule and Luke him selffe vtter the layinge on off handes by other words Thes are bare coniectures beinge alledged againste him but ye shall heare by and by where he hathe not halfe suche a reason the greate bell goe with certeinly and manifestly Howbeit althowghe thes seem bare coniectures to him yt muste needes haue weighte with those that haue their senses well acquainted with the holy scripture For they knowe that the writers off the newe testament frame them selues vnto the manner off speache off the oulde when they speake off the same thinges and for the gentils sake whiche had knowledge off the translation of the seuentie interpreters they kepe them so carefully to that that sometimes they vse it althowgh yt be not in euery poincte so iuste ād so answerable vnto the trewthe of the Hebrew as mighte haue beene Which thinge doone off all those especially whiche laboured in the tillage off the gentills amongeste whom S. Luke S. Paules Companion was whosoeuer considereth muste nedes confesse that this coniecture is not so bare as he maketh yt I aske yff any man can reasonably thinke that in one and the same ceremonie commen aswell vnto vs off the Newe Testament as those off the oulde Saint Luke woulde leaue bothe the maner of speache of the Hebrewes and the wordes off the 70 interpreters to take a straunge phrase from the one and diuers wordes from the other or whether he woulde leaue the phrase and wordes which the Iewes and gentils were acquainted withe to vse a phrase whiche the Iewes neuer harde of and a worde whiche was in that signification vnknowen vnto the Gentils off all whiche when there is no one which hath not force to perswade this sentence so the laste is suche that yt leuethe no place vnto any resistance For when the holy goste speaketh with the tonges off men and to their vnderstandinge if by this worde lifting vp off handes he had signified a layinge on of handes he coulde not haue beene vnderstanded seinge that worde was of no suche signification in that tonge And where he saithe I oppose my bare coniectures to improue so many learned mennes iudgements I haue shewed howe he hath ouer toulde I haue no where reasoned againste yow as if yow shoulde affirme that by that worde the laying of on hādes
proue that As if I coulde no otherwise driue the bishopp from this sole election onles I coulde proue that the people can not erre in their electioÌ„ Or as if bishoppes elections were without danger off error so that he whiche will change them muste be driuen to seeke for suche electors as no error can take holde off And iff any barres were stronge enowghe to kepe yowr tonge from this vntrew dealinge my wordes which followe by and by after wherin I confesse the church maie erre had beene sufficient to restraine yt Againste my reasons here be bare wordes that the pastors are neuer the worse loued that are thruste vppon them I coulde haue as well as yow alledged the experience in other places if all men coulde haue seen yt and haue referred them to the manifolde fiâ—tes in lawe betwene the pastor and the people in our churches How often shall I tell him that the papistes are not the churche nor off the churche off Christe and therfore not to be suffred to haue to doo with the election off the minister this needed he not to haue asked if he had had his to be shorte which he repeteth so often in any commendation He asketh whether men allwaies continue in loue off those whom they haue chosen yt is easier to continew loue where loue is then bothe to fal into loue of him vvhom they coulde not awaie with and also to continew the course off that loue still And if the not seruinge off their affections breed hatered towardes him whom they loue yt will muche more make yt flame againste him againste whom yt was before kindled But still the A. imagineth off the churche as off dogges and which receiuinge meate at the hand off their pastor turne againe vpon him and reÌ„t him and not as sheepe vvhich heare the voice off their pastor And althowghe there be some hypocrites vhhich doo so yet all the church doth not so And therfore for their sakes and for the giuinge the deeper roote off loue in their hartes towardes the pastor yt is meete that this waie off free consente shoulde be taken As for the Hypocrites vvhen they shall ceasse to loue theyr pastors for rebukinge their faultes that shall be to the encrease of godes glorie Forsomuch as they are by so muche more inexcusable before God as they haue refused his admonition whom they them selues chose for that purpose And not that onely but the hatred conceiued off that dewtie off the minister shall be bridled and holden in rather by â—â—e remembrance off the iudgement vvhich he once in token off good will gaue off him For euen the earthely and naturall man hath this in him that whom he hath once loued hym if he hate afterwarde onles yt be for some thinge apparantly worthy off hatred he will be lothe to vtter it And althowghe for that his maners please him not he can not loue him yet leste he shoulde appeare inconstante and deceiued in his choise he will pretende to loue him still So that the consente off the churche in the election of the ministerie beinge profitable vnto the godlie and those vvhich are trewe sheepe that their loue maie abounde towardes their minister and in respecte off the Hypocrites and goates that they maie be more inexcusable before God and lesse hurtefull to men thes reasons stand still vntouched off the A. Yt is an easye thinge for M. D. Which neither proueth nor improueth any thinge by scripture to aske by what scripture proue that if the parishe choose an vnfitt minister the ministers and elders of the churches should aduertise c. The scripture I proue yt by ys that Saint Paule when he teacheth that all the faithfull are members off one misticall body off Christe which owghte to haue a mutuall care one off an other laide the foundations off this politie for as in the bodie off one particular church euery faithfull man coÌ„pared with an other in the same is a member one off a nother so in a more generall bodie off a whole Realme euerie particular churche coÌ„pared with other is likewise member of them therfore as nature teacheth my hande to helpe the disorder which is in another parte of my bodie so the spirite of God owte of his worde throwghe a fellow feelinge teachetche one churche to stretche owte her hande to put a waie as yt can the euill vvhich yt seethe approche vnto another And therfore when the scripture willeth that one shoulde admonishe another it is not onely a commaundement to euery singular man towardes his fellow but also to one whole companie towardes another societie And off this care extended so farr that one churche hath sente to admonishe another wee haue example in the epistle to the Corinthes where the Macedonian churches sente their embassadors with Saincte Paules Epistle bothe to moue the Corinthians to liberalitie towardes the poore and to receiue that vvhich vvas giuen by the churche vnto their vse And this maie serue to proue that one churche owght to admonishe a nother and therfore also those which are nexte as those which are fitteste for that pourpose That from the admonitioÌ„ off the churches yt is meete to come to synodes if the iudgemeÌ„t off the churches be contemned maie beshewed by proportioÌ„ from the place of our Sauiour Christe in Saint Mathew For as when one brother is not moued with the admonition of two or three the matter muste be referred vnto the churche to see vvhether the maiestie of it will moue him whom the authoritie off twoo or three woulde not euen so it is meete that the church that maketh lighte off the iudgement off twoo or three churches shoulde be pressed vvith the iudgementes off the diocese or prouince as shall be in that behalffe aduised And if I were in this poincte destitute off the worde off God yet the naked examples off the reformed churches owght to weighe downe a popish custome And that the magistrate owghte to laie to his hande iff the admonitions take not place it is manifeste by the reason which is alledged I haue looked maister Zuinglius Ecclesiast ouer and ouer againe The summe wheroff is that none shoulde take vpon hym any ministerie which is not called of some churche aÌ„d of the ministers nere abowte contrarie to the practise off the anabaptistes which entred into all churches and sometime put the pastor beside the pulpet from vvhich vvhether yow or vve be further let the reader iudge Where yow saie that I forgett my selffe which suppose now the churche maie err that said before yt was spirituall and iudgeth all thinges if yow coulde forget this vntrue dealinge I remembred my selfe well enowghe Thes cauilles which come so often without any colour off trewth are vtterly vnworthy off answer but as I haue saide in another place require rather a censor then a disputer Howbeit becawse there is nothinge so vnsauerie which some taste maie not be abused by I
haue answered yt before There is nothinge so easie which is not harde to him that is vnwillinge And therfore the A as Salomons sluggard saith that the Lion whose delighte is in the foreste and in the wildernes is in the highe streat or in the burse that is to saie maketh difficulties wher none is And as this partly cometh of his vnwillingnes so diuers of thes questions if he doo not dissemble come of wante off knowledge not onely of the gouernemente of the churches nowe but off all aunciete tymes For he asketh who shall complaine off the faulte committed in the election to the churches by if the elders to vvhom that care especially apperteineth doo not others owght whō that disorder offendeth Ther needeth no callinge together and therfore no danger off tumulte disorder confusion charges partes takinge runninge vpp and downe losse off time offence quarels yt is enowghe that yt be doone by the eldership off the churches and if were needfull to haue the churches who le consente it might be doone in ordinarie meetinge for the seruice of god without anie of those things which the D. imagineth The churches maie admonishe by their seueral or cōmen letters emōgeste thē But aske me not who shall carie the letter what he shal haue for his paines whether he shal ride or goe a foote whiche yow might as well as those fonde questiōs which you haue moued It is meete the prouinciall Synodes be certeine and standinge as often also as maie be conueniently and it was ordeined as I thinke in one of the Africane Councels that their shoulde be at the leste twoo or three euery yeare So there shall be as spedie prouision off a pastor for the churche in suche cases off difference as now when they be without a pastor six whole monethes For the questions who shall summon the Synodes and in what place they shall be holden they perteine not to this questiō onles the A. will haue no Synodes at all for if he admitte them the sum̄oner and the place which are meete for the assemble generally and for the decidinge off all causes which fall into the consideracion off the Synod are meete also for this cause And where he asketh what if the prince doo not his dutie then yt is as if there vvere no godly magistrate then yt is vvith them as if suche a disorder shoulde happen vnder an vnchristian prince and then the people shall perishe in their sinnes but their bloud shall be required at his hand But still the A. seethe not how hee reasoneth againste hym selfe For if none of the bishoppes off the foresaide parishes none off the elders neither those bishoppes and elders vvhich emongeste the reste and in the name off all are chosen as the flowres oute of the prouince ād sente to the Synode nor the magistrate I saie if none off all thes nor all thes together doo their dutie how shall we thinke that the bishopp vvill doo it And iff hee doo yt in appoinctinge a fitt bishopp for the parishe and the parishe will not admitt him but take one vvhich is vnmeete off their owne choise what remedy hath he when he is forsaken off the magistrate Thus as shortly as I coulde I haue answered this legion off questions and if my answer in speakinge off thinges so commen be tedious take thy selfe good reader vnto the A. which merueileth at them as if they came oute off India Where he saithe I thus appointe the Prince a good office I haue shewed that the scripture appointeth yt and not I and it is the moste honorable office which the Prince can haue to see the churches be kepte in good order nether taketh yt any thinge from the royall estate that he muste obey and serue the lorde And where he saithe by this meanes the Prince muste stande and loke on all this while and in the ende laie to his hande I answer that wheras thes waies off admonition by the churches and Synode are sente before his authoritie yt serueth not onely for the ease off the magistrate whilest that after this sorte oftentimes the difference is ended before it come to him but also agreeth better with the maner off Phisicke which owght to be vsed in such diseases For that vvhich may be conueniently wonne vvith a vvorde shoulde not be gotten by the sworde and that vvhich maye begotten to bee doone with conscience shoulde not be essaied by compulsion Yowr slaunder that wee gyue no more to the cyuill magistrate then the papistes so often repeted is already and god willing shall be more apparante Yt is also a notable and an impudente slaunder that the Magistrate muste onely at the cōmaundemēt of the seniors execute suche lawes as they haue deuised wher as wee holde that if al the bishopes and elders in the realme woulde decree vnlawfull thinges the Prince owght to make them voide ād that he may ād owght to punishe all ecclesiasticall persons which walke disorderly Likewise yt is a fond dreame of surcharginge the Prince with thes matters as thowgh the Princes authoritie necessarily deriued vnto diuers in euery shire for other affaires off gouernment maie not likwise depart also this care vnto them Therfore if yow haue no better exceptiōs then these I am not afraied stil to cōmit my reasons to the iudgement not onely of the godly vvhich rest in authoritie of the word but euen off the wise ād reasonable man which maketh his account of likelihoodes THes highe wordes that he remembreth no learned writer new nor oulde which denieth that there were fewe professors of the gospell in the Apostels times in respecte off those professe nowe what haue they beside a crake And in respecte off the oulde writers yt is absurdly saide For howe coulde they compare the nomber of the professors of our times with those which were in the primitiue churches onles they shoulde prophecie seinge they were dead long before And maketh yt for yow if the newe writers doo not denie this Iff it he no good reason from the scripture negatiuely in those thinges which yt professeth to speake off is it good from other vvriters and frō one parte off them in thinges which they make no profession of ▪ I looked therfore yow shoulde haue browghtesome vvhich by affirming that yow saie mighte if not make it true yet at the leste seeme true I could off yowr chalenge take occasion to bringe all the peregrination off Sainct Paul declared in the Act. Epistles and especially in the 15. Rom. drawen to my hand by which appeareth that he for his parte onely had caused the Gospell to sounde in more then halfe off the worlde I coulde also fetche in Euseb and Ierome which testifie vvhat the other Apostels did for their parte I propounded that which I saide withoute proofe because the thinges are manifestly knowen and suche as can not be denied yow affirme withowte all proofe that in controuersie and wheruppon yowr cause in yowr
her so manie botches hath she which doo not onely staine her bewtie but put her in hazarde off her liffe And if Sainte Paule for one vnclean person thowght that all the Corinthians had good cause of mourning ryuers off teares in euery mans heade are not sufficient for vs to bewaile the estate vvhich Maister D. telleth vs wee be in which by his saying haue fewe sober fewe chaste c. I leaue to the reader how euill the three places off Sainte Mathew are patched vpp together and how there is neuer a one off them vvhich proueth that he taketh in hande that there be in the churche open offenders which can not be rooted owte I giue vvarning onely to the simple reader that the A. beinge deceiued in interpretation off the parable off the sower doo not also deceiue him For there is nothinge les ment then that where one hearethe the worde profitably three doo the contrarie vvhich is bothe courious and vncomfortable onely he sheweth that off fowre kindes off hearers one onely receiueth fruict but off the nomber off those which heare fruictfully or otherwise not a worde And it maie be for anie thinge our Sauiour Christe setteth downe that in some places that one sorte of men vvhich heare vvith fruict are moe in nomber then all the other three vvhich heare vvithout fruict Yf wee shoulde saie that there is no church vvhere suche faultes be or that for suche faultes we shoulde make a departure from the church thes charges off Anabaptistrie vvhich sounde so often and so full in your mouthâ— mighte haue place But that it is an Anabapâ—isticâ—l cauil to saie that the multitude and swarme off knowen and open faultes argue wante off good gouernment and wholsome discipline in the churche yow are neuer able to shewe nether yowr selfe by argumeÌ„t nor owte of Maister Bull. or any other godly writer Shall there be no ende off this vnfaithful dealing Where in a syllable ys yt saide that the gospell can not be syncerely preached where great corruption off manners dooth appeare yet whilest yow confute this Yow vvoulde make men belieue that vvee affirme yt When I saie there be no knowen drunkardes or vvhoremongers in the churche I speake off that vvhich shoulde be vnto vvhich meaning the tenure off my disputacion would haue led yow if yow had bene willinge to follow For yow opposinge that for a bar vnto the peoples election th effecte off my answer was that yt is not meete to take aduantage off this that there be many suche dronkardes and vvhore mongers seinge they bothe maie and owghte either be browght to repentance and so are none suche as they were or thruste owte of the churche aÌ„d so not hinder the election This my meaning was cleare and the manÌ„er of speache if it had beene simply coÌ„sidered withowt circuÌ„stances restraining to this meaning is such as the scripture doth admit As when Paul saithe that the churchs of God haue no coustome to coÌ„tende he setteth forth not that which alwaies cometh to pas but what owghte to be alwaies For it may be that coÌ„tention may coÌ„tinew in a church many yeres and yet it not cease to be the churche of god The prosperite of the Gospell sheilded by authoritie of the Christian magistrate draweth by no necessitie vvith it suche aboundance of vvicked as yow suppose for althowghe hypocrisie may be more then vnder persequution yet knowen vvickednes of whoredome dronkennes c. may be easilier purged out off the church vnder a Christian magistrate So that the swarme off suche vvickednes vnder the Christian magistate more then vvhen there vvas none is not the faulte off the time but off the gouerners off churche or commen vvealth or bothe As for hypocrites I haue shewed that there is not so great daunger in them consideringe that their owteward doinges are the same vvith the children off God and the difference is onely in the harte Which althowghe yow denie yet my reason drawne of the nature off an hypocrite yow doo quite passe by That vvhich yow call the prosperitie mighte vvell be called the crosse and vvhip of the gospell yf it drewe suche a taile off synne as yow suppose For if vnder a Christian Magistrate either alwaies or for the moste parte not onely the nomber off hypocrites but of barefaced aÌ„d knoweÌ„ wicked shoulde be multiplied and not that onely but the good them selues shoulde wax worse that time mighte peraduenture after a sorte be called the prosperitie of those which professe the gospel but how the gospell maie be saide theÌ„ to prosper which is so manie waies plucked downe I can not vnderstaÌ„d And this is cleane coÌ„trarie to the fruictes of peace which the scripture declareth The Prophet as soone as he had spokeÌ„ of peace vvhich shoulde be published amoÌ„gest the Iewes addeth that Iuda shoulde then kepe her solemne feastes performe her vovves because the vvicked enemie off the churche vvas cut off Wherby he doothe not onely shewe that the ende off the peace of the church is to serue god more wholy then before but also that the peace gaue them more commoditie off seruinge off God then they coulde haue in time of persequution And if yow replie that so it shoulde be but it is not the answer is if it be not so yt is throwghe the greate and vnexcusable faulte off all and gouernoures especiallie vvhich hauinge moe meanes to intertaine all godlines suffer it to goe to vvracke But that peace off it selfe is an aide to godlie increase and confirmacion off the church yt is manifeste by that all the churches in Iurie Galile and Samaria beinge in peace vvere edified and vvalking in the feare off God vvere multiplied Now if they in the time off peace multiplied hauinge no further aide of the magistrate then that he hurte them not vvhat condemnatioÌ„ shall yt be if our churches vvhich haue assistance off the magistrate cannot vpholde them in that feare off God but they muste fall into suche riote as the A. supposeth And if multiplying off open wickednes and decrease of former godlines vvere so generall and so incident to the peace off the gospell as yow pretende there is no cause vvhy vvee shoulde praie so earnestly and often for it nai rather there shoulde be good cause off praying againste it For when it is giueÌ„ vs of God partlie for our ease and especially for the glorie of God in encrease of all vertue the cheife parte vvhich is the glorie off God beinge by yow shutte owte there is no cause vvhy vve shoulde praie for the other Yowr reason of hauinge a better fealinge in the time off persequution then in the peace of the gospell is very insufficieÌ„te especially to that yow vse it vnto off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off persequution then in peace considering that those wicked which neuer were in persequution nor haue that spirite vvhich is often times sharpened and quickedned by persequution knowe
notwithstanding the misteries of God as the children of God them selues And althowghe the persequution shoulde giue some aduancement to knowledge that waies yet it hindreth more otherwaies in that it letteth the often meetinges to heare the vvorde of God vvherby knowledge is bredd in that also pouertie wher with it is cōtinually yoked draweth many cares for this present life for them and theirs Likwise continuall feare they be in euen duringe the time of their meetinges for the vvorde off God enemie vnto the vnderstanding and puttinge to flighte the powres of the minde vvherwith knowledge is gotten and also the often and soudein shiftinges from place to place muste needes be a lett to that tainment off knowledge in the vvord off god Where yow call vpon answer vnto your reason yow haue it that the time off peace drawethe no more ignorance in the professors off the gospell then the time of persequution and therfore the difference between thes times in that poincte to be euill assigned I alledged also that the elections off the bishoppes vvere so euill and of so vnfitte persones that althowgh the election off the churche shoulde swarue muche yet it can hardly choose vvorse then the bishopes doo wherunto yow answer not The distinction of being of the churche and in the church I browghte and allowed of it yet as thowgh yow had browght it and I refused it yow labour in confirmation of it But that which needeth yowr helpe and for proofe wherof I aske some testimonie of scripture that Idolaters and papistes are in the church is not proued As for dronkardes and whoremongers 2c Yt is spoken off before close papistes and Atheistes which dissemble their vvickednes are in the nomber off Hipocrites and therfore muste be holden to be in the church vntil the Lorde discouer them For professed Papistes and Atheistes which neuer made profession off the gospell it is not needefull to waite for the sentence off excomnnication to cut them of seinge they vver neuer of the church If notwithstandinge their professed enemitie vnto the gospell they should be accounted off the church because they agree to heare the worde and receiue the sacrament with vs then a Turcke or a Iew professinge his Turkisme or Iudaisme if he be contented to heare the worde and receiue the Sacrament is so also to be accoumpted Which if it be absurd it can be no good reason to saie that they owghte therfore to be holden off the churche because they are in some respectes contente to he are the worde and receiue the Sacramentes And I vvoulde gladly learne where the Lord hath vvilled vs so to caste awaie the vse of our iudgement that when men make open profession that they are members off the bodie of the Pope which is Antchriste yet wee muste accounte off them as off members off Christe or howe this is to iudge iustlie Yow are very vnfaithfull in reporting my wordes continually I nether saie that Hypocrites onely are in the church and not of yt and the place in the margent I alleadge to another purpose then yow affirme that is to proue that the papistes and Idolaters beinge vvithowte haue not to doo with the church nor the churche vvith them where yow woulde proue by those wordes if any brother be an Idolater that Idolaters maie be in the churche yow muste vnderstand firste that it is one case off him that hath giuen his name to the gospell and afterward slydeth from that profession to Idolatrie and another of him vvhich neuer gaue it but hath bene from his infancie an Idolater For althowghe the firste can not be seuered from the church withowt solemne sentence of excōmunication because by a publike profession off the trwth he was once receiued into the bodie therof yet there is not lyke reason off him which was neuer so setled And this differēce Saint Paule dooth make when he giueth leaue to a Christian to haue to doo with an Idolater of the worlde that is which hath not bene of the churche and yet will not suffer him to haue to doo with one which is famously knovven for so the the word signifieth to be a brother Wheruppon followeth that forsomuche as our Idolaters professinge their poperie still are not nor can not be famously knowen for professors off the gospell this place of S. Paule openeth no dore for them to enter into the churche Furthermore yt muste be obserued what kinde off Idolatrie yt is which Saint Paule saithe maie fall into a brother and yet he reteine the name of brother This appeareth vpon the discourse he maketh in that Epistle to haue bene onely a sittinge downe to eate at the feaste of Idolaters made in honour of their Idoles withowt any honour doone to idoles by sacrifice or bodily vvorship and vvithowt anie conscience of that meate more then of other Which althowghe he proue a spice of Idolatrie yet was yt one of the leasie and lighteste kindes and such as holdinge stil the foundacione off Christianitie coulde not vvithowt obstinacie in it cut from the church Wherby falle the owte that the papistes vvhich in their Idolatrie rase the foundations of trewe religion can not by that place come into anie accounte off the church off God. For the first place off Maister Caluin that there are in the Church contemners off God and vvhich lyue dissolutely if the S. had added the nexte wordes that suche ovvght vvith all diligence to be taken avvaie by excommunication he might haue bene as hamed to alledge this sentence to so small purpose The other that Saint Paul meaneth the absteining from a disordered brother off priuate societie and not of the publicke communion yt is true in deede but to no purpose For withal he confesseth that the other owght to be seuered from the communion But forasmuche as it is not in the power of a priuate man to excommunicate that perteining as he saith vnto whole bodie off the churche by whose cōsent yt owght to be doone and yet in his power to kepe him selfe from his priuate societie he concludeth against the Anabapt which absteined from the holy cōmunion if any liuing offensiuely were receiued that it folowed not because S. Paul woulde haue one absteine frō priuate familiaritie therfore he would haue him absteine from the communion Which is no parte off our question and is too shamefully alledged considering that the place making nothing to this question striketh starcke dead another off his cawses towching the sole excommunication of the bishopp And althowghe it be owte off place yet hauing gotten the booke yt shall not be vnprofitable to admonishe the reader off the S. vnfaithfull dealing in his former allegations off Maister Caluin for vvhere pa. 81. he to conclude that the discipline is not of the substantiall notes of the churche alledgeth a sentence owt off this booke beside that I haue shewed how euill he concludeth off his wordes it is to be noted that in the same
booke he affirmethe precisely that the discipline is required to the substance off the church onely he denieth that vvhich the Anabaptist helde that there was no churche where there was no excommunication Likewise pa. 90. where he would make vs beleue that excommunication 19. Math is not by Maister Caluin iudgement vnderstanded off publicke offences Mai. Caluins declareth onely that those priuate admonitions doo not belonge vnto publicke offences but that those publike offenders ought to be excommunicated if they reste not in the churches Iudgement and consequently first complainned of to the churche Which are two off the Ecclesiasticall censures mentioned in that place off S. Mathew he dothe more then once or twise affirme Now leuing the D. in his threchery let vs returne if al were trwe yow alledge here as they are very vntrwe yet they helpe not For yow vvill not denie but dronkardes vvhoremongers papistes c. owghte ether to be driuen to repentance or owte off the churche which whether soeuer come to passe taketh awaie the inconuenience yow alledge againste the election off the church So that onles yow meane to nourishe them in the churche as bandogges to kepe owte this election this barre againste it is easely remoued It is appointed vnto the magistrate by the word off God that he shoulde not onelie prouide that his subiectes liue paceably one with another but also and that especially to see that they hauing the trwe knowledge of God maie serue him as he hathe prescribed This waie off gathering them to the nexte parishes seemed vnto me fitteste to be vsed in that case if yow can shewe better mine shall giue place Onely therfore I made mention of it to shewe that the impossibilitie vvhich yow so often caste in the teeth of the reformacion can haue no place if they continewe vncorrigible I haue before shewed that yt is the cōmaundemēt of God vnto the magistrate to vse cutting and burning and nether to suffer God to be dishonored in them nor the reste off his subiectes infected If they can be discerned for dogges or swine vvhich are not onely filthie in vvhich regarde I called dronkardes c. Swine but also treade the worde vnder their feete then I graunte he vvhich hath that iudgement off them assured by the testimonie of the spirite of God owghte not to teache them But this cōmeth owte of time For I made no mention off dogges and the name off swine I gaue not to the papistes but to filthie liuers and yt ouerturneth yowr pourpose for if they maie not heare the worde muche lesse can they be off the church The preuenting off an obiection is no digression vvhether yt bee friuolous the iudgement shall bee with the reader I tooke the likeliest signification off yowr worde established which is surely grounded withowte remoue and which hathe all the partes off a church nowe I see that by established yow meane allowed by the magistrate Althowghe I haue shewed before by storie that there were churches then which had maintenance of the magistrate yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me not helpeth yow I wil not striue speake of the church visible standing off good and euill of the owtwarde gouernment of the church vvhich standeth in administring off the word and Sacramentes and exercise of all partes off church discipline and that I haue shewed to haue all her partes althowghe not all her ornamentes Which I did not withowt reason annexed againste which cometh nothinge but a bare affertion and a charge off ignorance off that distinction which I my selfe did first propounde towchinge this that the cyuill magistrate is not the heade off the churche yt falleth into the questiō of the Archbishop where it shall be god willing handled That he saithe that the state off the churche was in the Apostles tyme popular by his owne iudgement which gyueth the name vnto the forme of gouernment of that parte which moste rulethe is vntrwe for the State off the beste did beare the greateste rule considering that there were matters belonginge vnto the church doone by the eldershipp wherat the people were not nor coulde not by any conuenience be present yet there was nothing in whiche the peoples Iudgement was required wherin the Eldershipp was not bothe present and president And this saying off the D. that the people in the Apostels times had to doo almoste in euery thinge is directly contrarie to that he hath before discoursed For to the Admo and me opposing the places off the Actes where thinges were doone ether by voice or consent off the church his answer hath bene that the churche had nothing to doo there but onely in the election off the Deacons and that popularitie he affirmeth to haue bene not in respecte that the church was vnder persequution as here in this place but for a speciall cause off contention then in the church Now I vvould gladly knowe of Maister D. What are those places off scripture wherby he will proue that the moste thinges in gouernment were doone by consent off the people if those places wee haūe alledged doo not proue yt That which yow ad off the conuenience that nothing shoulde be doone in the church withowte the consent and knowledge of the magistrate yowr addition taketh nothing from the consent of the churche For the magistrates consente and the churches are not at warre but one may hathe and dothe stande well vvith the other Because the recytall of a 100. differences is vnprofitable I leaue yt in the readers iudgement howe trwly and withowte bragge or figure I haue spoken But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet yowr cause shoulde be neuer the better onles yow can shewe that those differences pull with them a necessitie off change off the forme off election vvhich yow nether doo nor can That one churche shoulde admonishe another and that there are many Hypocrites vnder persequution is before shewed Off wicked ministers which had their followers and louers in the churches of God vvhich notwithstanding kepinge the profession off the gospell were in daunger off the lawes of the contreis where they dwelte is spoken off almoste throwghe all the epistles off Saint Paule yea yt maie appeare throwgh owte the whole course of the ecclesiasticall stories that many churches of Heretikes partly Arians partly Nestorians and especially of the Nouatians were persequuted and banished of heathen Emperours together vvith the catholike church of Christe And it appeareth plainly by that which hath bene of both partes alledged owte of Cypr. that certein churches abowte him did chuse vnmeet ministers Therfore Maister D. doth wounderfully forget him selfe when he saithe that yt is not lyke that the churche in persequution will chuse an vnmeete or wicked mynister or that they which suffer persequution for the gospell doo yt allwaies off conscience or off good conscience wheroff the question is And if he vvill admitte none off thes proses yet if he stand vnto his exposition off
diocese will not holde owt the whether For although it might be therby gathered that there vvere seuerall Ceremonies in the elections off the dioceses yet it is plaine by his wordes that the elections vvere throvvgh ovvt made by the church vvhich is that vve desire Because yow busie yowr selfe so much to proue that this was not decreed by autoritie of the vvord of God althowgh yt be not that vvhich I tooke in hand to proue yet the wordes off that decree proue yt fully And albeyt he saied not according to the rules of the Apostles yet he saith that in effect For in saing that the church should vse that election in the name and authoritie off god what is yt els but that god hath so ordeined And in that he calleth yt the honor of the church which he giueth not him selfe but assenteth vnto he declareth yt incident to the church And what a reason is this Thēperour for bad that any man shoulde spoile the churches of their elections therfore it was in the Emperours powre to take awaie the election from the churches Which is in this diuision for feare of forgetting fowre times repeted ād vnworthy once to be cōfuted as I haue before declared And as that which the A. alledgeth off the rest of the decree maketh nothing to proue that the electiō off the church is in the Emperours powre so that which im̄ediatly foloweth vvhich he hydeth in c. doth manifestly proue that he helde yt for grounded of the vvord off God that the churches should haue the election off their mynisters For he addeth Because vve haue bene tavvght by the holie fathers that this thing that is to saie the taking awaie off the election from the church as the D. himselfe expoundeth yt is most greuous synne If therfore it be greuous synne to spoile the church of this honor and synne is defined the breach of the law off god yt followeth that the Emperour toke yt for a lawe of God that the church should chuse her minister And if I had bene bente vppon that poincte I could haue cited diuers testimonies which Illyricus vseth wherby this off the vnchangeable necessitie off the election by the church is confirmed As that Leo the firste affirmeth that no reason suffereth that he should be bishop vvhich is not chosen by the people alledged and pressed against the Papistes off Maister Caluin to the same pourpose Which place how violently and vnfaithfully yt is wrested off the D. in the end of this treatise shall be considered Also that he alledgeth off Leo the fourth and Celestine which confirmed the same ordinance vvith this testimonie it is not conuenient and yt is againste reason yt should be othervvise Likewise owt off the epistles off the Archbishop off Reines in Fraunce vvho diuers times vseth this saying he ovvght to be chosen of all vvhom all must gyue obedience vnto Last off all a whole treatise owt of the second booke of Cusanus vvhich proueth of diuers places out off the scripture Cyprian and canon Lawe that yt is no constitution off men but the lawe off God that the minister should be chosen off the church and that vvhosoeuer doth not enter into the church by that means entreth not in by the doore but is a these and a murtherer Thes I would haue browght at large if I had not contented my selfe with proofes owt of the scripture for the necessitie off yt which I here haue shortly set downe because I see the D. more afraied off the iudgemēt off the auncient church then of the scripture so that althowgh yt be a slender buckler to shild him selfe that the constitutions in that behalfe make no mention off any grownd owt off the word of god wheras he should rather haue shewed that they protested in their lawes off the indifferencie againste the necessitie off it yet euen that buckler also is by diuers Testymonies taken from him Yt is a poore falsifying off Platina vvhich is nothing but change of one worde for another without any gaine at al. For the Emperours cōmendacion serueth me as well to proue that the election of the church was alowed of and confirmed of the ciuill magistrate as if he had commaunded yt The second place off Platina proueth nothing les then that it was in the Emperours powre to change the election seinge that he nether made nor altered any forme off Election but onely off two Elections by the people mainteined that vvhich vvas lawfull Seinge also Platina supposeth no right off makinge the election in the Emperour but by the resignation off the Bishopp if that place proue any thing or thother after alledged owte off Bale and Barnes they proue that yt was in the Bishoppes hande to order yt at his pleasure Which howe vntrwe yt ys maie be considered off that vvhich hath bene before spoken againste the sole election off the Bishopp and off that vvhich is here confessed that the Bishopp of Rome began to vsurpe that which belonged not vnto hym For iff he encroched vppon the Emperours right no meruaile althowgh he brake in vppon the possession off the church Where he saith yt is to be noted that the libertie for the people to chuse was graunted by Charles the greate note also tha◠that note is worth nothing For where he would haue yt seeme that he was the firste that gaue that libertie he is confuted manifestly by the wordes off Charles a litle before alledged vvho speaketh of that election as of a thing accustomed of ould and doth not make any newe lawe therof but gyueth his assent vnto those which vvere made The vvordes yow ascribe to me that the electiō perteineth not to the Emperour I haue not I kepte the very wordes of Platina and nether added nor tooke awaie from them Where yow vvould seme to confirme owt of Platina in the life of Iohn the 13. by the worde creating that the Emperour chose Leo yt is but an abusing of the reader For Platina in the next chapter sauing one vvhere he speaketh of Leos election declareth that that creation vvas nothing els but a confirmacion of the election made by the people and clergie Therfore I saide the Emperours permitted the elections vnto the churches because by powre and violence they might haue taken them from them vvherfore yt followethe not that he mighte withowt breache off Gods lawe take them from the churche When yt is saide in the stories that the Emperous permitted vnto the churches the exercise off their religion maie yt therby be concluded that it was at their pleasure to haue without offence of God restrained them of that libertie verely I am ashamed to confute vvhich the D. is not ashamed to obiecte Yet the testimonies alledged make no mention of this word permission wherby this aduantage yf yt vvere anie should betaken Yow might easelie haue forgiuen me this fault where the iniurie which I doo is a gainst my selfe For where I might
is a popishe shifte as I haue shewed sufficiently before confuted yt hath no grounde in the vvorde testimony wherout he woulde pull yt For by a fygure off metonymy he noteth the peoples voice because by giuinge it they gaue also testimony what they the wght off him Where it is to be noted that the D. giueth no more to the churche off God then S. Paul giueth to straungers froÌ„ yt of whom he willeth that the bishop shall haue a good report There followeth the open violence doone vnto August wordes Where first let the reader obserue againe that this wresting of the example of Eradius against the election of the church was taken from Pighius as appeareth manifestly But for answer vnto Pigbius and the D. it muste be vnderstanded how for that election of Eradius to be bishop after August decease there were assembled two bishopes besides August 6. Elders beside Eradius with the reste of the clergie and people For what purpose all thes if it were in Augustines powre to choose onelie After yt appeareth that Augustine did call the people to haue there consente because he had experience off trouble and discontentement of the people off Millen for that Seuerus the bishop there did appoincte his successor before his death withowte speakinge any thinge theroff vnto them vvhich could not be auoided off Augustine if he mente to chuse any againste the will off the people For yt had bene better for him to haue appoincted one as Seuer us did vvithowte communicatinge the matter vnto them then in communicatinge yt to take one againste their willes Againe where the D. vppon those wordes I vvill haue Eradius my successor woulde haue that Augustine onely had the election off him he is coÌ„futed by and by after with his owne wordes I saie that I vvill haue him because I knovve that yovv vvill haue him And after he vvilleth that the publike notories shoulde as vvell note their voices as his vvill in this matter that saith he your consentes fall not to the grounde or become voide Wherunto also pertaine the subscriptions of them which folowed Which althowgh the D. saith are referred onely vnto the peticion off Augustine to be discharged off the hearinge off ciuill matters yet the wordes sounde otherwise For when he required their subscription to those Actes yt is cleare that he muste be vnderstanded to haue spoken off both those matters otherwise he woulde haue required subscription to that Acte and not vnto the Actes And where in the ende for an other reason he addeth Augustine was appointed bishope when Valerius bishope off Hippo was a liue I see not howe it maketh for him one word For if he think that Valerius off his Authoritie did it he is vtterly deceiued seing Possidonius writeth that Valerius spake vnto the people to prouide and to ordeine an elder off the cytie and sheweth how he was ordeined by the consente off all the people Which thinge yff it were not more lighter then the none daies off this Epistle off August yet yt mighte appeare by other as where he declareth that Pinianns was ordeined off the people elder off the church againste his will. moe might be alleadged but thes shall suffyse Sauinge that I muste put Maister D. in remembrance howe he merueilously forgetteth him selfe For grauntinge me before that the councell off Carthage wherat Augustine was presente decreed that the election shoulde be made by the commen consente off the people clerkes and bishopes in the same prouince he must heere needes confesse that ether Augustine did there ioine together in election with the church and the clergie as they terme them or that he brake the order off the Councell which could not be vvithowt his fault although the election off the church had bene as the D. esteemeth yt but a thing indifferent And the truth is yt appeareth that August had in that election an expresse regard vnto the decree off the councell which caused him beside the eldership off the church and people to send for two other bishops to be assistants Wherupon the reader may see how there is no light off wordes so cleare which Phighius and the Ans misled will not giue thâ—nser to darcken Besides that Ambrose calleth yt a diuine election which is made by the church which he could not onles yt were by the institution off God the whole discourse off the Epistle teacheth that the election off the people is there accounted off as necessary For when the church off Vercella did linger the time in not chusing a bishop vvhen it vvas also infected vvith Heretickes vvhy did not Amb. at least by vvay off Lapse take the election vnto him self but vvriteth vnto them reprehending them that they did not aske for a bishop as other churches were vvont to doo Gregor Nazienz speaking there off diuers elections vvherin still the people bore one part and that withowt controlement speaketh more for that election in that one place then the D. hath hitherto or in the residue of his treatise is able to shew And where he might seeme to haue somewhat nipped at it in shewing how at certeine elections some off the people were contentious he healeth that euen in the next sentence to this saying that at that time it was to be feared lest he ovvght to iudge the popular regiment better ordered then their ovvne and after maketh mention off the corruption off those which were fellow elders vvith his father but obserue I pray yow againe the D. faith fulnes which expouÌ„deth the worde churches the clergy Where learned he thus to expound Let it be that as in the scripture sometime so in the auncient fathers the eldership off a church is called by the name off church where can he euer shew that the eldership or as he termeth it the clergy of one onely church vvherof Greg. speaketh is called by the name off churches In steed therfore that he should haue translated both the richer and they off great authority in the church vvere cleane from that euill he hath translated the churches that is to say the clergy c taking the nominatiue plurall for the genitiue syngular Which although in the latin toung if one take not heed vnto the sense may deceiue yet vvhen the D. had the Greeke which hath off the church before him as it seemeth by cyting the greeke in the same place by and by after ether he vnderstood it not or willingly peruerted the meaning So I leaue to the reader whether I haue reasoned to the pourpose or no and whether yow besides wordes haue any thing at all As in certeine other places so in this in steed off that I should haue taken the quotacion which came after I taking the quotacion in my paper booke which went before was deceiued and for the 6. and 7. of Socrates set downe the 6. and 7. of Eusebius This verely is the error which the D. maketh so
that I deale not equally which barre him off that authoritie that I haue sometimes vsed my selfe ▪ he owghte to remember that a foreine testimonie and witnes off an enemie is glorious and that I hauinge vvarre in thes questions off the discipline not onely vvith him but with the Papistes mighte with commendation strike the◠thinges with their owne sworde which he hauinge herin the same cause vvhich they haue can not doo That which is gathered off Ambroses election owte off Theodorete is moste vntrwe ▪ for yt is manifeste that Ambrose was chosen by the whole church off Mylane and neuer a vvord to proue that the Byshops had the righte off election but the contrarye by the wordes and circumstances off the storie And wheras vppon the bishoppes offer vnto the Emperour to appointe one the D. woulde make the intereste of election a runninge and walkinge righte firste as the emperours gaue vnto the bishoppes thinges vvhich vvere vnmeete for them so yt was no meruaile if the bishops sometimes offred vnto the Emperours that vvhich perteined not vnto them Which may well appeare there by the answere off the good Emperour which refused yt as a thinge vvhich he had not to doo with and vnmeete for him Secondly yt is very like that for the diuersities of iudgementes vvhich vvere emongeste the people the bishoppes perceiuinge that they shoulde run into displeasure off one off the parties woulde haue bene glad to shifte off that euill will and lay yt on the Emperour which was better hable to beare it last of all they offred the Emperour that which he willed them to doo which vvhen yt was to ordeine onely as the issue declared and not to chuse the churches election can be by no meanes preiudiced in that offer off the bishops As for Chrysostomes 3. booke de Sacerdotio besyde that I doubte not but if yt had any thinge of Valewe for yow yow would alledge yt yt is the same authoritie which Hosius alledgeth and alledgeth in grosse as the D. doth againste the churches election To the D. firste reason againste the churches election vvhich standeth in that there haue bene great contentions and diuersitie off myndes amongeste the churches I answer that the Apostles vvhen there fell a contention and a iarr amongest those off the church neuer entred into any such deliberation off cuttinge awaye the churches libertie contrariwise they estemed the neareste waie to heale vppe the breach to gyue them some thinge more in that election off Deacons then was ordinarie For where they were accustomed to shew the way in other elections and by ripenes off their iudgemente helpe the weaknes off the People there they suffring the church to goe before folowed with their approbation And not onely in respecte off that election but if a man will consider the vvhole estate off the primatiue church in the Apostles time it shall appeare plainly that if there were euer good cause to take away the churches election throwgh contentions and diuersities off mindes that was in the Apostles times For the churches off God then almoste throwghowt the world standinge of Iewes and gentils and there beinge such a naturall hate betweene those two peoples as vvhatsoeuer the one woulde the other commenly vvoulde not and contrarywise if the Apostles had iudged that for reason vvhich the D. estemeth highe vvisdome they shoulde neuer haue permitted any election vnto the churches For albeit the knittinge off both those peoples into one profession off the gospell did mortefy that deadly hatred which was naturally in thē yet notwithstandinge yt appeareth by diuers places off the scripture that there vvere such remnantes off that hatred lefte that nether the Apostles them selues which were so vvise peace makers and so kunninge tiers off loue knotes nor yet the ministers and elders which had receiued the firste fruictes off the spirite off God coulde kepe them from moste daungerous contencions And Maister Zuinglius off vvhom the D. woulde seeme to receiue some succour in this cause euen when their churches were moste dangerously infected with Anabaptistry and many nourished it in wardly vvhich durste not vtter it openly teacheth that this forme off choise by the churche was to be kepte Nether is it to bee passed by that Basil noteth that one Anthimus in choosinge a bishop withowt the churches voices filled all Armenia vvith sedition Whervnto add the testimonie off Chrysostome where he askinge vvhy Peter communicated the election vvithe the Disciples answereth leste the matter shoulde be tourned into a bravvle and haue fallen to a contention When he assigneth the cause off contention cleane contrarie to the D. that the election was not communicated with the church Secondarily iff the churches elections shoulde be taken awaie because off cōtentions which happen in them Monarchies which oft haue declyned into tyrānie and bene abused to oppression off the subiectes shoulde haue had an ende long a goe and other such moste lawfull and necessarie aides off this present life owghte to be taken awaie as those which are abused And to come to ecclesiasticall affaires councelles by the D. reason owght to haue no place in the churches off Christe off which it is saide that there was neuer seen good issue of them and that throwgh merueilous ambition and desyre off contention in them thinges ovvte off order vvere not remedied but made vvorse Thirdly the examples off the contentions which the D. hath heaped vpp to gether beside that they are in parte not off the churche with yt selfe but off the church with hererickes which is her commendation as in the election off Ambrose beside that also it is noted specially that the people off Alexandria was off a Mutinous and stirring nature and therfore vniustly obiected againste the whole estate of the church beside this I saie thes examples alledged by the Answ are so farre from weakeninge the churches election that they make yt stronger For notwithstandinge those contentions had vnder bothe Christian magistrates and Bishops there was not onely no counseill taken to barre the churches off their election but were as hath bene shewed councells from time to time to ratifie yt And if the Emperours and Bishops had not thowght yt necessary that the churches shoulde haue intereste in their elections or had thowght as the D. that bothe the churches were put in hasarde of false teachers and the commenwealth off vprores by reason off popular elections yt had bene greate folie or madnes rather to haue suffred that which they mighte haue so easelie remedied Which opinion off the necessitie off the churches interest as yt hath appeared by diuers examples before alledged so maie it clearly be seene in the letters off the good Emperour Constantine to the Cytisens off Nicomedia which althowghe they had chosen to his great greife one Eusebius Bishop dooth not therfore take awaie the election from them but moueth to a newe And albeit they had abused their righte in
haue saide or Doctors then and Doctors if he had ment to make them all one But all this had not needed if the Ans woulde haue stoode by his former worde in the writinge intitled The Doctors booke For in sayinge there that the Apostle in the Epistle to the Corint speaketh onely off Apostels Prophetes and Doctors Leauing out Euangelistes and yet Euangelistes and pastors necessarie he dooth manifestly confesse that thes functions differ betwene them selues Nether can he saie that he spake there accordinge to my sense For I had not then ether spoken or written any worde off that matter Thus in that he is called the Doctor off suche a churche in parte is answered the question how yt can be shewed that he is tied to a certeine churche And for further answer when as admitting that there is suche an office he can not denie but the institution off it is amongest other spoken of vnto Titus all those mynisteries being appointed to a certein towne and congregation yt foloweth that that office ys likewise Moreouer considering that exhortation and doctrine be necessary for the interteinement off a churche in the trwe seruice off God in that S. Paul parting thes betwene the Pastor and Doctor and placing the office off the Pastor especially in exhortation ascribeth that off teaching principally to the Doctor yt followeth that the Pastor being tied vnto a place the Doctor muste also wherby is likewise answered his other question how it can be proued that the doctor was gyuen in aide off the pastor for the pastor being by the bādes of his vocatiō especially tied vnto exhortation a supplie of teaching being nedefull it must be fetched at his handes whose proper profession that is Last off all herby appeareth what an abuse yt is in the vniuersitie that they are created doctors which not onely doo not the office but haue not so muche as a certeine place assigned to teach in which amongest other are the two principall thinges I mislike as vnlawfull Where in the end off his booke he saith that it were cofusion and Barbarisme to take away such degrees he doth shamefull iniury to diuers reformed churches in Sauoy and Swisserland where all kinde of learning and good behauiour florishing those degrees are not But it is to be noted that together with the churches Musculus especially hath his part in this charge off Barbarisme c. The churches not hauing the other degrees in artes which are indifferent gyue no sentence off the Doctorshipp but Musc doth plainly declare his misliking For hauing spoken against the popish Doctors he addeth vvherfore I haue often merueiled vvhat diuers notable ministers off Christ meane that they glory so much off the title off an vniuersitie Doctorship as though any autoritie came to their doctrine therby Where it is knowen that those whom he ment were modest gloriyng no further then that as a meanes to draw more credit to their ministery they receyued it which Muscul to wcheth them for Therfore onles he had bene driuen headlong he would at least haue left his degrees indifferent and not such as withowt which no godly honestie nor ciuilitie can stand In the next diuision his answer is vnsufficient For the reason against reading Ministers is not onely because they are appoincted to no certein place but for that they are vtterly without all ministerie and whether euer they shal be or no yt hangeth ether off their owne or off their patrones pleasure So that if ether he forthincking him selfe like the shop better then the churche or the patrone will kepe the dore shut against suche insufficient men which the bishopp opened so wide or as sometime falleth out they can not agree of their market yt comet to passe that he is made a Minister which ether can not or will not not onely not fulfill but not so much as lay hand off that ministerie whereunto he was appointed Contrary vnto the rule off Saint Paul that leueth not this in choise but commaundeth precisely that if after triall they be found blameles they should exercise their ministerie To proue that there may be a rouing ministerie and some which may haue the walk of a whole prouince here is first alledged that the Apostels visited the places where there were seuerall Pastors Whereunto the answer is that that function off the Apostels was extraordinary as shall appeare and therfore at no hand to be drawne vnto our times Secondly is brought the example of Darius which beside 120. gouernoures set ouer the seuerall prouinces made three other to ouersee the◠Wherunto I answer that the Lord hath in assigning offices off the commen wealth left the libertie vnto men which he hath not doon in offices off the church The reason whereoff is manifest considering that they bothe are off greater sufficiency to ordeine offices for the commodities of this life then for those off the life to come and the errour in appointing of them is not so daungerous Eusebius sheweth howe Constantine inuented newe degrees off honour to pleasure those which were about him This not being forbidden in ciuill gouernemēt I thincke the A. dare not say it is lawfull to be doon in the gouernement off the church Hereby also is answered the surmise off kinges which being called sheapherds should by this meanes haue their dominions restreined vnto the gouernement off one cytie For the scripture hauing not determined whether there should be a Prince ouer euery citie as it hath that euery assembly should haue a pastor and the enmities and assaultes against the ciuill estate not being so great and daungerous as against the spirituall yt can by no meanes followe that the tying off the Minister vnto one church should enclose the Princes aucoritie in the circuit off one citie But it is to be obserued that both the D. reasons off the Apostels visiting and of Darius pollicie leade to Rome For yt followeth vppon them that one may haue ouersight of all the Ministers seing that both euery off the Apostels had autoritie to visite any church through the world and euen off those three vvhich were ouer the gouernours off 120. prouinces Daniel was the cheif And albeit we leaue no place ether to those rouing or owtgrowne ministeries yet the sheapherds and watchmē want not therefore their ouerseers considering that the Ecclesiasticall Senate doth not onely watch ouer the body off the church but euery one off them ouer an other and especially ouer the mynister off thes also as euery one in brotherly equalitie ought to admonishe so iontly they haue autoritie not onely to admonishe but by Ecclesiasticall censures to chastise the default off their minister Yf they also faile the Synodail assemblies haue interest as I haue before alledged And if the fault be suche as requireth cyuill punishement the Magistrate is the watchman appointed off God for that pourpose Where he saith that a similitude maketh a matter plaine but proueth not
proue an Apostel yt proueth one sent not to a prouince or kingedome but vnto one singular person onely But who would voutsafe an answer to such scrapinges Against that I alledged to proue that Iunias and Adronicus were no Apostels for that a man may be famous amongest the Apostels and yet no Apostel he opposeth Martyr that semeth to doubt whether the wordes will beare that sense which I leaue to the readers iudgement The other reason that S. Paul calleth them kinsfolke and fellowe prisoners and not fellow labourers which his vse is when he speaketh of those which haue any ministery of the gospell he towcheth not He hathe raked vp to no no pourpose a number off bare opinions which I will not wrestell with considering that nothing thereby falleth froÌ„ our cause For if both Epaphroditus and these be Apostels such as Paul and Barnab I refer my self to that where I haue shewed that that function is ceassed If in the generall signification for that they are sent to preach yt maketh nothing to the question seing the D. must shewe that there is an ordinary particular function off Apostelship seuered from the office off a Pastor Euangelist and Prophete Where he saith he alledged them to proue that some nowe may preache which haue no certein clere I could not thinck himso forsaken off all iudgement that he would make such a conclusion howbeit I trust nowe he hath his answer That I alledged the Apostels declaring that they vvould not haue this order continued in the church in that they renevved not that order of Apostels as they vvere taken avvay by death he answereth first that the scripture doth not expresse it As yf S. Luke which so diligently described the election off Matthias would haue quit ouerleaped this if there had bene any And considering that they had not such cause to drawe them to a newe consultation of a newe Apostel as in the 1. Act. which was an expresse word off taking an other into the roume off Iudas it is manifest that they attempted no such thing after So that alththough yt be not expressed yet it is conteined in scripture that there was no consultation off an other Apostel Yf not howe is he as he saith persuaded that there was none chosen into their places or how knoweth he that it was not necessarie will he still haue his persuasions in diuinitie without the word without which they are no persuasions but idle phansies After he asketh who euer saied that there muste be twelue Apostels nether more nor lesse as though my reason tended to that But yf the Apostels did not vphould that small nomber off twelue which the Lord instituted yt proueth that their minde was not to choose about that nomber And if they would not continue 12. to gather the â—2 tribes off Israel scattered thoroughe the whole worlde they ment not that there should be a greater nomber to gather those which were scattered in one Iland To that I alledged off Ambrose which saith that he vvould not take vpon him the estate of an Apostel he answereth that he saied so to abase him selfe because in an other place he chalengeth not the circumspection off a pastor will he neuer wake out off this sleepe for to let passe that not to acknowledge the grace of God bestowed on him is a fault as to chalenge that which he hath not receiued and not to enter here into his abilitie of doing the office of a Pastor doth he not see that the cawse off not taking vpoÌ„ him the estate off an Apostel is assigned not in his disablenes but in that which the greatest wit learning and godlines off those times could not come vnto that is to say that none could chalenge the office off an Apostell but he vvhom the sonne off God him selfe had chosen He might aswel say that it is a point off great modestie for a man to professe that he cannot clyme vp into heauen withowt a ladder Nether is this Ambrose iudgement onely but Ignatius which in those epistles that the D. will haue rightly borne saith that he vvill not commaund them any thinge as an Apostell In deed Nouatus a runnegate Manes a Phranticke Martiall a coleprophet Romish Augustine the Anabaptistes off our time and such brambels haue intitled them selues by the name off Apostels and taken vpon them to ordeine others but all that haue had together with pietie any spark off iudgement haue beside their heresies condemned also this phrensie Cyprian reprocheth Nouatus that he sent forth newe Apostels August presseth the Manicheans once or twise which saied they were Apostels and demaundeth what scripture they could shew to shew themselues Apostels Whereby he declareth that he estemed no other Apostels then which had particular testimonie off the scripture which thing he neuer laide to the charge off other orders off the Manichean Ministers Zuinglius also chargeth the Anabaptistes aswell for that they tooke vpoÌ„ them the office as also for that they chalenged the name off Apostel But the D. seing his folie laide open to the derision off younge children hath in fauour off his Apostels and Prophetes inuented a newe distinction For where I alledged certeine proper markes off the Prophetes as foretelling thinges to come and Apostels as immediat calling from God seing off Christ embassadge into the whole world which not falling into any function nowe in vse proue that they are ceassed he aswereth that Prophetes and Apostels in such respectes are ceassed but continue still as towching preaching the gospell Then which what can be more bluntly spoken For yt as much as yf one should say that a beast is a man although not in respect that it hath a naturall capacity off reason and speach yet in that it liueth and hath sense as a man For as a man and a beast being both liuing thinges are seuered one from an other by their properties and speciall differences as they be called off the Logicians euen so Apost Prophetes Euangelistes Pastors Doctors being all preachers off the Gospell are seuered by that wherein they differ one from an other And as he can be no man which hath none off those differences whereby a man is seuered from other liuing thinges so he can not be Prophete or Apostel which hath nothing whereby he may differ from a Pastor Doctor or Euangelist Yt is also too childishe that he vnderstandeth not how the difference off a thing which is the substantiall forme being taken away the thing it selfe can not remaine Therefore yf the D. will haue Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes remaine he must shew howe both euerie one off those nowe differ from them selues and from the functions off Pastor and Doctor In which behalf he hath bene hacking but his tooles will not enter For this newe Apostels office is placed in preaching the word where need requireth the Prophetes in an especiall gift off interpreting the
into an other mannes fishing he should enclose neuer so great a multitude yet with owt pardoÌ„ he shall one day heare that to obey is better theÌ„ sacrifice â–ª and to harken better then the fat of raÌ„mes â–ª Where he addeth that God enclineth not so to one church that he would haue the other neglected I graunt and further that euery one ought to take care off all the churches but according to the boundes off that calling wherein he is set off god And beside that I haue shewed that the loue off God towards men is no certein rule to direct the minister in his function but his calling the Answ by this reason must take shipping ouer to Rome and Constantinople and to whatsoeuer place he shall vnderstand to haue need off his help Yow doo as yow say dally not with mine but with the holy Gostes metaphors off pastor and watcheman And fyrst where yow would so assigne the resemblance betwene these and a Pastor off the church in other thinges that yow would not haue yt come to the diligence and continuance in feeding yow are manifestly confuted by the words off the scripture for in the person of Peter yt requiring off all ministers off the word that they should feed feed feed according to the charge committed vnto them sheweth that the similitude reacheth to the diligent continuance Which may better appeare in that as the gouernment of the Pastor towardes his church is set owt in the picture off a shepherd so is the spirituall gouernment of our Sauiour Christ shadowed forth in the same similitude and life as our spirituall feeding is off Christ so the principall meanes which he vseth to feed vs by is the Pastor Whereuppon yt followeth that if it be needfull for vs at all times to haue our spiritual feeding of Christ yt is needfull also to haue alwaies that hand which the Lord especially hath appointed to giue it by Likewise noting a good minister by watch day and night without cease yt is cleare that the resemblance reacheth vnto the continuance vpon their charge Whereunto perteineth that the scripture compareth the spirituall watch ouer the churches with the watch which shepherdes kept in those countreis which for the multitude off wolues and other hurtfull beastes watched day and night For thereby is implied a greater attendance then if the comparison had been drawne off the fashion off our countreis Which although it be expresly set downe in my 49. pag. yet the Ans will not vnderstand â—t but saith he knoweth not wherefore the 2. of S. Luke should be quoted To conclude it is to be obserued that albeit he grateth the cares off his reader by so often repetition off thes syly differences yet he will not once acknowledge the strenght off the argument which is not as he imagineth off like but off the lesse to the more For if there owght to be such diligence and continuance off watch for thinges off so small valew how much greater owght yt to be for those which are bowght with the precious bloud off the sonne of god If for those which haue sometimes truce with their ennemy much more for those which haue restles war. If against the hazard off this life onely much more against the daunger off euerlasting death Therefore to let the vntruth off some differences which he raketh vp vnworthy off confutation rest in the iudgement off the reader yf they were all true the argument remaineth still vnanswered For albeit the absence and substitution which the D. imagineth be allowed in the wordly watch yet it followeth not that the same is to be allowed off in the spirituall Nether helpeth yt which he alledgeth and that in an other place owt off Chrysostome that the sheep are here reasonable which are there vnreasonable Wherein first cometh to be obserued how all is fish with the Answ that cometh to net To briue the church from the election off her minister he alledged owt off Chrysostome that the people is nothing but a tumultuous stir compacted of folie Here where he would make more elbowroume for the Pastor they are reasonable sheep such as can feed themselues such as can prouide for them selues Thus he is content for aduantage both him self to play on both handes and to drawe his Doctor to the same But yf this reason be oftentimes in the reasonable sheep more ennemy then freind vnto the spirituall feeding if the setld sheep haue naturally more appetite to desire tast to discern and meanes to enioy their conuenient feeding then thes reasonable haue for theirs then this sentence off Chrysostome helpeth not And yt may peraduenture seem to smell off the smoke of free will and off the naturall power of man whereoff he is often too lowd a preacher Likewise that which he bringeth off the difference off the temporall meat soone digested and off the spirituall which continueth for euer so oft repeted and of that no man can take the sheep off God owt of his hand is ashamefull abuse off the holy scripture For to let paâ— how many waies this feeding is through the malice off the deuill and corruption off mennes natures ether clean taken away or turned to the hurt off the hearers likewise not to stand in that the Pastor knoweth not what time the Lord calleth effectually and gyueth that meat that neuer consumeth to those which are vnder his charge which ought to kepe him in a continuall exercise off his function and wayting for that howre when the Lord will towch their heartes I say not to stand vpon thes the D. should haue knowne that as the Lord declareth that none can take them owt off his hand so he hath disposed off the meanes whereby he will hould them which is the ministry off his word And as he sheweth the vertue of the word in the heartes of those which are effectually called to be perpetuall so he ordeineth yâ— should haue that perpetuite by that meanes off preaching whereby it first took root In watering that which is planted feeding first with milk then with whole meat them which are once conceyued by the immortall seed of the word preached vntill such time as they come to their perfect growght and stature off the full age off Christ Ad hereunto that thes places applied vnto the vse the D. putteth them serue to proue that preaching off the word is needles amoÌ„gest those which haue belieued and aswell that the pastor may be away without any deputy as with one For if the residence off the Pastor may be lesse because the sheep off God can not fall from their calling and because the spirituall food which they haue once tasted of endureth to life the same comming to passe vvithowt any further instruction yt followeth by the D. reason that they may be vvithout all ministry off the word And iff this may diminish the continuall residence off the Pastor
couetousnes idlenes licentiousnes c. off one or other it followeth that the pastor hauing exercise of the moste excellent worck which can be in his owne church owght not by the D. owne reason cast him self vppon others All in the two next diuis is answered nether conteine they any answer proper vnto the reasons alledged off me He answereth that the similitude off the eie and sowle in the body coÌ„pared with the Pastor in his church agreing in some pointes can not be applied to the residence becawse the Pastor may be absent from his flock withowt present destruction which the eie and sowle can not Yf this be a sufficient exception there be few similitudes in the scripture which are able to hould owt and he might aswell say that as the eye waxeth worse and worse through age so the Pastor may wâ—r euery day more foole then other Howbeit this is clear that forsomuche as the Pastor doth the office off an eye and off the sowle vnto his church his absence from it ought to be such as the body off the church may nether see the worse nor be les disposed and liuely vnto all good worckes which is enowgh to break the neck both off his monethly much more quarterly sermons and off his reading deputies Hetherto perteineth which the D. intitleth the moste effectuall kinde off preaching where he would if he durst expound diligent preaching preaching once a moneth to vvhich end he stowreth vp a freshe the difference betwene spirituall food and corporall before answered But because he dare not take vpon him this defense and the rest of the treatise hath nothing but a childishe excuse off his reproches against the Ministers of London an impudent deniall off his Lewdenes towardes the weomen an intollerable bragg off his benefites and off his preaching often owt courses against me all beside the cawse I will leaue them in the readers iudgement In the next Tract off the great conuenience off preaching before administration off the Sacramentes falling also into this treatise as that which pulleth at the least one of those feathers wherewith non residentes so willingly take their flight from their owne charges there should haue bene almoste as title to answere as in the other if the D. had not vsed such open false accusations as he may thereby seem to haue striuen for the mastrie thereoff with the father off them And first to let pas his correction off thorder off my reasoning whereby he maketh him selff more then ridiculous to all which haue a graine off knowledge that waies to that he saith that Iohn as minister preached in the wildernes and baptised in Iordan and therupon will conclude that if preaaching before the Sacramentes now haue grownd in Iohnes example preaching in the wildernes and baptizing in riuers haue the same I answer that the case is nothing like For his preaching in the wildernes was by speciall vocation wherunto he was directed by an expresse propheceye This instance therefore is vnfitly alledged which albeit it were incident to his ministerie yet that was by extraordinary calling The baptizing in Iordan was for that he sought the commoditie off water as appeareth by other places where he likewise baptized not as the D. pretendeth for that his mynisterie called him more to that place then vnto an other Yt is also vntrue that the Apostles in that they were ministers of the word preached in all places and wrought miracles For then all ministers off the word should doo the same Considering that as whatsoeuer agreeth vnto one man as he is man agreeth vnto all euen so whatsoeuer agreeth vnto one minister off the word as he is minister theroff must needes be verified off all The reason wheroff is more knowen then that the D. withowt blusshing owght thus to be ignorant off that vvhatsoeuer is verefyed off a generall as generall is verefyed off all vnderneth yt Therefore that the Apostels preached the word they did it in that they were ministers off the word but that they preached in all places and ioyned therewith miracles they did it not as ministers off the word but as such ministers that is to say extraordinary and Apostles Where he saithe there is an other reason off preaching before Iohns baptisme then before ours for that Iohn had to doo with those that belieued not in Christ whhich he calleth a litle after infidels and we haue to baptise infantes onely to passe by his ignorance off calling the Iewes at that time infidels the onely people off God euen before Iohns baptisme which notwithstanding deserueth the whip he owght to vnderstand that albeit the baptisme be administred vnto infantes which haue no vse off preaching yet forsomuch as the knowledge off that mynistery necessarily perteineth to the whole assembly and particularly to those which vndertake the bringing vp off the infantes â–ª the necessitie off preaching before the Sacrament doth remaine He saith that it can not be gathered off S. Math. that S. Iohn preached immediatly before he baptized aÌ„d yet the first reason I alledged that he baptized after he had preached he cleane passeth by the other off the Actes he vnderstandeth not how it can be gathered Although the interpretation I noted was not commenly knowen as that which towched off some fewe was not seen of diuers writers off name yet when I pointed him to it I supposed he would haue vnderstanded But I presumed the â—â—che off his vnderstanding and yet not knowing what I would note he condemneth the sense I haue followed as tending to Anabaptistry or Papistrie or I know not what S. Paul meaning to refer the giftes off the holy ghost which the twelue disciples at Ephesus were to receiue by putting on off handes vnto the performance off the truth off the promise figured by baptisme and so to ioyne the signe with the thing signified in the fourth verse sheweth how Iohn preached that his disciples should belieue in Iesus Christ vvhich came after him After in the 9. vers he sheweth that those disciples off Iohn and not as is commenly supposed those twelue disciples off Ephesus hauing heard Iohns preaching and not as is also supposed Paules vvere baptized into the name off the lord Iesus Which interpretation as yt floweth and hath plaine proofe off the twoo coniunctions which haue relation one to an other and can not without violence be seuered so off all other yt moste stoppeth the mouth off the Anabaptistes and Papistes taking all coulor off Argument from them and withall noteth the order I alledged yt for that after they had heard Iohn preach they vvere baptized Where it being most boldly affirmed off the D. that it is manifest that our Sauiour Christ was baptized without preaching he owght to haue shewed yt by manifest reasons he not onely set downe no reason but agaynst the reasons I alledged opposeth his naked saying For that that S. Luke hath not that
S. Iohn preached immediatly before he baptized is vnworthy off answer as if the order off the storie could not shew that withowt the word immediatly or as if nothing might be saide doon immediatly after an other but where some such precise note off time is added That he saith he knoweth no pourpose why our Sauiour Christ should be at Iohns sermon yt was answered that he vouchesafing to be baptized off Iohn yt was probable that he vvould honour the ministery off the word with his presence which he passeth with silēce beside that he must learne that our Sauiour Christ growing in wisdome and stature vntill the time off his baptisme when he receiued the holy ghost withowt measure no more neglected the ordinary meanes off God vvhereby he receiued his increase off wisdome then the ordinary nourishement whereby he grew in stature That the disciples were preached vnto of the vse of the supper before they receiued the reason followeth in the 6. diuis That S. Luke noted the sommes rather then laied owt at large the sermons of our Sa. Christ howsoeuer the D. will not acknowledge yt is more manifest then his impudent deniall owght to cawse me enter into profe off To the next reason of continuall practise of preaching immediatly before the Sacramentes proued owt of S. Luke his answer is insufficiēt For beside that it is vntrue that the assemblie infantes excepted are sufficiently instructed off the vse off baptisme his answer off preaching immediatly before the sacramentes to those that are not conuerted hath no place considering that S. Paul preached to those in the administration off the supper which were already conuerted Where I confesse that nether the Adm. nor I hould for a thing simply necessary that the word be preached immediatly before the Sacramentes he saith that there is then no cause to contend yt being agreed off the conuenience Yf it be very conuenient that preaching be immediatly before the Sacramentes then the coustome off reading onely is not sufficient which is that he found fault with in the Adm. for at the least a great conuenience is wanting to that sufficiency And seing the scripture commendeth thinges conuenient as it forbiddeth the contrary the order of preaching immediatly before the Sacramentes euen in this respect owght onles yt be rare and vppon great causes to be obserued Where I say the life off the sacramentes dependeth vppon the the vvord preached the D. saith yt is a fowle error no meruaile according to his black diuinitie But how cometh it so fowle because the life off the Sacramentes dependeth vpon the promisses in the word I graunt and nether vpon preaching nor reading that is vtterly false for when baptisme belongeth not vnto infantes but in that their ancesters in the conuenant and those no otherwise in conuenant then by faith which cometh are preaching yt followeth that the parentes hauing no Fruict off the couenant but by preaching by can much les haue profit off the Sacrament without it I graunt their infantes saluation dependeth vpon the election off God yet that they may be partakers off baptisme dependeth on that the promise preached was receiued at least in the churches iudgement off those off whom they are descended Thus the doctrine fowle in the D. iudgment is beautifull in the scriptures Let vs now se whether yt be so vncourteously handled off others as off the D. Caluin shewing that the Sacrament standeth of the word and element saith vve muste vnderstande the vvorde notvvispered vvithovvt vnderstanding and faith vvith a noise onely as if yt had povver like an enchantement to consecrate the Element but vvhich being preached causeth vs to vnderstand vvhat the visible signe meaneth Likewise vppon these wordes Preaching the baptisme of repentance the vvord sacrament doth not signifye a vaine Ceremonie vvhich standeth of shevves vvithovvt doctrine but the vvord off God is alvvaies annexed vvhich gyueth life vnto the outvvard Ceremonie I vnderstand the vvorde not mumbled betvvene the teeth but pronounced vvith a cleare voice fit to edifie the faith ▪ for yt is not saide simply that Iohn baptized to repentance as though the grace of God vvere shut vp in the visible signe but that he preached the vertue of baptisme that the figne might haue effect by the vvord he preached Here is not onely the same iudgmēt but almost the same wordes that the life of the sacramēt dependeth vpon the word and that preached In his dispute after as though I had saide that the sacramentes are dead vnles the word be preached im̄ediatly before he declareth that be is gyuen to speake all vntruth be yt neuer so apparant For it is directly against that I set downe in the same place he rayseth this false accusation where I confessing that there is no precise necessitie off preaching immediatly before the sacramentes affirme notwitstanding that preaching owght to goe before them In that he bringeth owt off Zuing. against the Anabaptistes the first place is altogether against him For although the disciples baptized withowt teaching yet it being saide there that our Sauiour Christ tavvght yt is euident that preaching went before the sacrament The other place is to fill vp roume For we say not that young infantes must be tawght before they be baptized but that doctrine must goe before the sacramētes in the church of God as the publishing off the graunt before the seale Where he would conclude that I vnderstood the necessitie off preaching before the administration not in respect off the rest off the church present but off the infantes for that the life off the sacrament perteineth not vnto others then those which be pareakers Who hath so blinded hym that he vnderstandeth not that baptisme receiued off the standers by in their infancie taketh effect daily by preaching after they be off age and that withowt preaching in those vvhich be off discretion yt remaineth vnfruitfull and seruing onely to condemnation Yea euen the baptisme off the infantes not onely perteineth vnto the parentes for whose comfort yt is also ministred but dependeth as I haue shewed off this that they off whom they come haue through preaching off the word before that baptisme gyuen their names vnto Christ Thus hauing obteined that yt is very conuenient that there should be preaching immediatly before the administration off Sacramentes I returne back with one band more to hold the Pastor from rouing beyond the tether off his church Other thinges impertinent vnto this place shal be answered in their places His triumphes vpon that I confesse that the Pastor may for some busines vvith leaue off his church vvith an able deputy be absent notwithstanding he would so faine mount them on highe by his questions are beggerly and doo scarce crepe vpon the ground For where he asketh first whether he may not aswell be away for publicke affaires as for priuate he may if they be of that sort which agree with his vocation But what
then will he conclude of an ynch an ell off a week a moneth off a moneth half a yeare and off a case off necessitie make an ordinary licence when S. Paul will haue him which entreth into this warfare off ministry to vnwrap him self off all occasions which may drawe him from yt being already entred he will much lesse suffer that he should ether feek new occasions off absence or take all that are offered Our Sauiour Christ not suffring those whom he called to this worke to goe bury their dead and giue the farewell vnto those off their howse declared sufficiently that they owght to be very vrgent cawses which should drawe the mynister off the word from the charge committed vnto him And when his loue towardes God must be moten by feeding off his flocke committed vnto his charge his long and often voluntary absence must needes proue a small loue in him towardes the lord Which reason being alledged is altogether vnanswered This rare absence and that vppon vrgent cawse may appeare a so by the practise of the church The Councell off Mens decreing that the Bishop vpon sickenes or some other vrgent cause off absence not able to preach should haue some euery sonday and other festdayes to preach in his steed declareth that the vse off the church did nether suffer the bishop to be away but vpon great cawse and that not so much as one holy day withowt a preaching minister to supply his place Augustine saieth that he vvas not absent frō the church of Hippo but cōpelled by sickenes Zuinglius putting difference betweene an Apostel and Pastor saieth that he that doth the office off a Pastor is alvvaies in the povver of the church ouer vvhich he is set and neuer goeth from it Vppon which both testimonies off the scripture and practise off the church yt appeareth how to haue a deputy owght not to be as the D. would haue it an accoustomed thing but rare and vpon vrgent causes Where before he alledgeth for profe off a deputy that there is no shepherd which hath not a boy or a man to supply his absence he owght to vnderstand that our Sauiour Christ is that master shephherd and therefore he being but a seruant can no more set ones his charge then one seruant discharge him self vppon an other Beside what sheepmaister is there of so smal housbandry which will be content that his stipend should be mangled and a portion giuen vnto an hyreling for a monethly or quarterly ouersight off his flocke suffer the shepherd to enioy the rest yt may well be for the poursprofit off the shepherd but it can not be but to the great scare off the sheep considering that not onely the hyred can not by any likelyhood haue that care ouer the flocke which the proper pastor hath but also that all this disputacion tendeth hether that they may haue a reading or other in sufficient substitute which as the shepherdes boy or rather eurr content with a locke or twoo will leaue Maister Person the maister shepherd the rest off the fleese For such is their fidelity that where as in times past the preistes are commaunded to beare the arck vpon their owne shoulders so they should feed their flockes them selues they are not onely content to shift yt from their owne shoulders but as the foolish and idle preistes in committing yt to such vnstilfull gouernours they lay yt vpon a cart hale yt with oxen not with the aduenture but with certeine euent of an ouerthrow Although herein I speak too fauorably off the greatest nombre off them which doo not bestowe so muche coste as a new cart and a draft off oxen come to For they haue learned their howsebandry rather off him which teacheth that alvvaies it standeth a man in least vvhich may be doon by a poore asse And if this carting off the church of God were sent home to our popish Philisthins from whence yt came the kitchen fyre being thereby well abbated this disputation for adeputy would be well cooled For an able man would either for conscience or honesties sake kepe him selfe from this hyrelingship I say consciēce because amongest other corruptions he can not auoide the crime off Simony as they call yt whylest to obteine a place he is content to part stakes with the Pastor Honesty whylest all not seruill minded will rather choose to be free then vnder the yoke off an other mannes seruice His second questiō whether the flocke be not in like daunger in the Pastors absence with leaue as withowt is altogether from the pourpose when it is no lawfull for him nether with leaue nor without leaue to be away with daunger off his flocke His third where I finde in scripture that the Pastor owght to haue leaue off his parish is answered in that I shewed that the Pastors are belonging to their churches and are their seruantes which he altogether passeth by His laste asketh how he cā in his absence haue an able deputy seing he may not be admitted to the ministery which hath not a certeine flocke As though in suche necessitie for so small a time the supply may not be made by the Pastors hard by which is also answer to that he obiecteth pag. 249. Vnto the next diuis I answer not Vpon that many parishes may be ioined in one and fix townes in Fraunce as he saith are committed vnto one Pastor he concludeth that one Pastor may haue diuers flockes which is vnworthy any answer As if a thowsand sheep in one pasture were not easelier and with more cōmoditie tended then three in three sheepgates For as towching the preaching off the word and administring the Sacramentes vnto diuers townes assembled into one bodie vff a church the labour is almoste all one in ten and ten hundred The residue off the charge being commen with him vnto the rest off the elders may be especially in such necessities borne owt by increasing their numbre according to the compas off the churches territorie Yt is also vntrue that he affirmeth I haue saide that the numbre or distance off place is all one And yt is inconuenient that ether a greater numbre be assembled into the bodie off one particular church then can be at once tawght off one mouth or that the numbre should be taken owt off townes farther remoued from the places off the churches resort then that they may haue conuenient accesse Likewise yt is vntrue which he saith off six townes to one Pastor in Fraunce For although one church be assembled owt off diuers townes yet it falleth owt that the least part off those townes perteineth vnto the church and those fewe meet together in one place to receiue the nourriture prouided for them off the Lord by the hand off their Pastor To that alledged that the Pastor if he vvill haue many flockes should content him selff vvith that stipend off them all vvhich
about An. 266. had no authoritie but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours And if the Emperours had been Christian then as they were heathen yet how cometh yt to passe he doth not vnderstand that in going about to make men belieue that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses parishes c. in the church off God he setteth vpp a Pope and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after Finally if this Monke were off any credite he is directly against him euen in this cawse For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish vvherin he should keepe him selfe which is against the pluralitie off benefices that he so greatly striueth for He asketh where it appeareth that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations and parishes I answer that off that the scripture willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation and particular bodie off church and also that thes assemblies as all other thinges in the church should be with the greatest conuenience so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together euen so the church as much as may be conueniently should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other yt is apparant that although the scriture doth not mention parishes nor precisely define off the compasse yet yt giueth the rule wherby they are squared owt For when a parish well bounded is nothing els but a nomber of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort gyuen the churches tarriers and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning hath testimonie owt off the word off God. Where he asketh proofe off this that dioces is taken for a parish yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church bishops in steed that they are now off such a dioces were then of a parish afterward when they began to hooke into their possession moe churches then they were able to feed they were called bishoppes off dioceses ▪ yet the name parish was not quite worne owt but indifferently vsed for a dioces as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran where one translation hauing dioces thother hath parish And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas that diuers parishes in England may appear to be off greater circuit then they That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb wat in the field may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church which I haue noted in an other place That the churches of Christ had nether thē nor in the time that the D. imagineth any churchyardes ys manifest considering that then the temples wherunto the churchyardes were annexed were possessed off idolaters The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes that by that reason churches and other thinges must necessarily be remoued is a begging off that in question and otherwise insufficient For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient and if it had been yet being not necessary it owght for such abuses to be taken away And beside the incommodities assigned it was as may appeare taken of the Papistes from the superstition off the heathen For Lycurgus made this law that men should burye in cyties and round about the temples Now residence being necessary and that principally for preaching off the word it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined must depend in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt of Gods course is from heauē throwen vpon him Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach shall be heere in a word or two dispatched First the D. charged with false dealing in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth answereth their meaning is plaine belike he hath it by reuelation for in their wordes there is not a title sounding thar waies But he saith yt was their owne case which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will. Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof I answer that he towcheth not the matter For both they speake ād my reply was of those which ordeined to preach the gospell are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence as if a man charged to doo a thing should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him Wherunto he answeretth not a word Thirdly he laieth to my charge that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book then which what greater dotage can there be as yf there could be default off answer whera there was no such thing obiected In that I saied vvithovvt their approbation to vvhom yt apperteineth he excepteth that there is an equiuocation yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise what we think in that behalf and owt of place to speake off it heere his exception is too childish For to whomsoeuer thelection doth appertein this case remaineth the same whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word and yet to keepe it still in his power whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge and onely in yt Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention yet howsoeuer yt be taken this case remaineth one Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense that he vvhom he sendeth prisoner to his church is ether heritik or schismatick or suspected for that he ovvght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery he vseth open falsehood For he saith I suppose that hypocrites schismatikes c. may be knowē forthwith or suspected may be by and by remoued Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth that the church can not procede against Hypocrites that is those whose sinnes are not discouered and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self Then where I shewe that those which are to be admitted to the ministery owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy or schisme the D. answereth as if I had saied that those which haue already bene in the ministery were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed Which what
diligent reading where not daring as it semeth say planting he hath chaunged it wheroff the question was for tilling belike becawse he remembred he had saied before that yt is proper vnto the Apostles to plant Where againe his cawse receiueth an other wound For if planting be by preaching and not by reading then in this respect preaching is more effectuall then bare reading Then that he saith killing and watering may be applied to reading he should to mainteine his cause haue saied as well or as muche To that off the people perishing vvithovvt prophecy vvhich is not bare reading but expounding and applying off scriptures he answereth that the people muste needes decay in holines and knowledge where there be no preachers but why doth he say decay and not perish as Salomon speaketh where his cause falleth flat to the ground For if the people perish where be no preachers althowgh there be readers and cōtrariwise preaching withowt bare reading saueth engendreth faith and nourisheth yt yt is manifest that the word redd is not so effectuall as preached and that by bare reading ordinarily there is no saluation and therfore also no faith both which he before denied And if the people perish withowt preaching which haue already bene lightened by it how muche more except the Lord worcke extraordinarily must they perish that neuer had preaching Where he saith both preaching and bare reading be necessary in the church yf he meane publikely as yt is true in preaching so yt is vntrue in simple reading For although yt be very conuenient which is vsed in some churches where before preaching time the church assembled hath the scriptures redd in suche order that the whole Canon theroff is oftentimes in one yeare run thorough yet a nombre of churches which haue no such order of simple reading can not be in this point charged with breach of Gods commaundement which they might be if simple reading were necessary Considering especially that some off them beside their set sermons expounding euery day paraphrastically two chapters with the principall pointes theroff taken and applied vnto their auditors gaine that which the D. owt of Bucer presupposeth to come onely by simple reading that the scripture therby is made familiar vnto the people Where he saith they be moste profitable the wine off this error so fumeth into his head that it hath taken away the vse off his toung for two thinges to one and the same end can not but very vnproperly be saied most profitable For if preaching be moste profitable to worcke faith by then is not reading if reading thē is not preaching it is true that mē sometime speake so when the questiō is not of comparison betweene those thinges they speake off but otherwise it is altogether straunge Where he saith preaching is more apt for the ignorant and vnlearned and that he denieth not this the vntruth theroff is apparant For if preaching be more profitable to the vnlearned then reading and de at least as profitable to the learned then yt is false that he hath set downe with so great assurance that reading is as effectuall as preaching seing the effect we speake off is the profit off the hearers Yet as a man strawght off his wittes striketh him selfe he ouerthroweth this also in an other place for in asking why Iosia caused the lawe to be redd ▪ except it had as great force to perswade redd as preached he signifieth the contrary off that heere affirmed Considering that the greatest part was off the commen people and that grosse as those which newly came owt off filthy idolatry Further if preaching were as meet for the learned and meeter for the rude then his reason there which imagineth that Iosia would not otherwise haue caused the law to be redd onles there had bene as great fruict in reading as preaching falleth flat Considering that the D. confesseth that preaching is more effectuall to the people and I thincke dare not deny but it is as effectuall to the learned Therfore the reason why Iosias cawsed the law to be redd was not becawse reading was as effectuall as preaching but because being both redd and preached yt profiteth more then when yt is symply redd Where he saieth marry haue bene called by bare reading he saith yt againe and againe but withowt all proofe For where altogether owt off place his pourpose being to proue that reading edifieth more then preaching he faith God vsed reading at a meanes to call Augustine yt is vaine seing the question is whether he vsed that onely meanes for yt appeareth that August had greatly profited in godlines before that time wherin he heard the miraculous voice which sent him to reading Beside that the voice he telleth off going before his reading will not suffer that that reading onely may chalenge the whole meanes off conuersion Likewise that he affirmeth owt M. For off many browght to light off the gospell by reading onely he maketh not nor as I am perswaded could make yt appeare Although yt be confessed that that may be doone by the Lordes extraordinary worcking which feedeth sometime with quarles in the wildernes Yet yt is hard to shewe any time wherein there haue bene professors off the gospell and God hath not raised vp some ministers which haue ether openly or secretly as the time required preached the word considering that euen in those desolations of the church the Lord by his tvvo vvitnesses promiseth that the church shal not be destitute off true ministers Where confessing the vvord preached and red all one I shew notwithstanding that as the fyre stirred gyueth more heat so the vvord as yt vvere blovven by preaching flameth more in the hearers then vvhen it is redd he answereth that this is to ione with the Papistes in condemning the scriptures of obscurity but reason he can shew none and it is all one as if one should be charged to haue saide that the Sonne is darck for that he affirmeth yt lighter at noone daies then at the Sonne rising Then he muste vnderstand that we place not this difference of lightsomnes in the worde which is alwaies in it selfe most lightsom red and preached but partly in the ordinance off God before noted making that the speciall meanes partly in the darcknes of our vnderstanding which withowt the aide off preaching can not come to sufficient knowledge off yt Lastely he must learne that althowghe all thinges necessary to saluacion might by reading onely be vnderstanded yet yt followeth not that a man may by reading onely be saued For yt is one thinge to haue the scripture in his head another to haue it in his heart one thinge to vnderstād yt another to beleue yt which beleef being onely able to saue ys ordinarily onely ingendred by preaching Wherby also we haue a peece off remedy against another poison spit forthe in this diuis that to those which vnderstand the scriptures they are as whot and lightsome red as preached
For where in his former assertion although not in wordes yet in deed he vtterly condemned the wisedome off God ordeining pastors and Doctors for continuall functions in the church of whom there is no vse if simple reading be as effectuall as preaching that being wrung owt off his handes in that he is compelled to confesse greater efficacy off preaching towardes the vnlearned yet rather thē all this cobweb should be vnweaued he maketh the ministery off preaching voide towardes the learned Wheras the scripture doth not onely generally but particularly and expresly shut vp the saluation off the learned in the meanes off preaching as off the vnlearned But this is a peece off the doctorall diuinity of some in Camebridge which to excuse their shamefull contempt off preaching and to make them a pillow to sleepe on or to pane them an alley to bowle in during sermons in the afternoone shame not to alledge that they cā profit as much in reading the scriptures or an homily owt off Chrysostome in their study as by hearing a sermon in the church Vnto the example off the Eumuche vvhich reading the scripture belieued not vntill he heard Philip preach he answereth that he vnderstood yt not and that he speaketh off an vnderstanding reader Which although it be vntrue the wordes off his former booke being generall withowt so much as the least signification off exception yet it is nothing worth For the cause why he could not vnderstand yt is there assigned for that he had no teacher to shew him the way Wherby followeth not which the Papistes conclude off this place that the people owght not to read the scriptures seing the Eunuch which both knew and confessed that he could not vnderstand withowt a guide exercised him self diligently in reading off them but this followeth that a man can not ordinarily not onely come to saluacion but not so much as to a sufficient knowledge off it withowt preaching Where off infinite examples he saith one is as few as may be yt appeareth this one was to muche for him to answer Now for all the false accusations off ioyning with papistes in despising off reading the scripture c. once heare yowr one proces that yt is yow that strengh then their handes For as in popery by committing the office off preaching especially vnto the beggerly friers and by declaring it more honorable for the bishop to reade a masse then to preach a sermon they set reading in the head and preaching in the taile so yow making simple reading as profitable as preaching hasten after them and if yow keepe the same pase yow haue begon it will not be long or euer yow ouertake them The D. hauing before made simple readers equall with preaching pastors in that he holdeth simple reading as effectuall as preaching heere in making bare reading better then preaching preferreth the readers aboue the preachers But in this later absurdity first as before he woulde make Musculus his pack-horse and therfore brawleth becawse I laied it not vpon Musc so princely is the D. that he would haue his faultes whipped vppon an other mans skin but at least I should haue deuided it between them As if I were matched with Musculus but the truth is that he maketh not for him For he compareth the profit taken of symple reading and off a sermon made of him which endeuoreth to make a glorious shew off eloquence and learning rather then to apply him self to the capacity off the simple which is nothing to that in hand where good reading is cōpared with good preaching And therfore it is ridiculous the D. bringeth of bitter inuectiues and contentious sermons c. compared with orderly reading For in this comparison it were not hard to proue which is blasphemy that yt is better to reade a peece off Lyuy then the bookes off the kinges namely if Lyuy be simply red and the other with interlining and mixture off popishe interpretation If one defending this would for maintenance off his comparison bring this escape would not all men hisse at him this is his refuge also to salue that he saied off homilies red better then sermons preached His other instance off a papist carying preiudice against all preachers and therfore not moued once by their doctrine in which notwithstanding after by reading he is established is insufficient for if the Lord by his vertue shewed throwgh preaching doo conuert men vttenly peruerted and at enmity with all truth and consequently with the ministers theroff how much more will he therby conuert papistes which by doubting whether the gospell be truth or their superstitions haue ground or no cary not that enmyty the other doo which haue no such entrance Then yow muste vnderstand that as in the Sacramētes the Lord doth not alwaies at the same tyme they are ministred worcke by his spirit but chooseth the time that seemeth good to his wisedome so yt is in preaching wherby yt cometh to passe that the spirit of God worcking faith at the time of reading wrought it not by that meanes onely but vsed therunto the help off preaching which went before For as greene wood laied vpō fire and her with many strong blastes as laste set on fire and flaming with one and that a soft blaste is not to be be saied chiefly set on fire with the soft blaste because it wēt immediatly before euen so the word off God blowen by preaching and after sensibly burning in the hearres of the hearers by the meanes off reading immediatly gone before is not so muche to be ascribed vnto reading as preaching Considering that so it might comme to passe which is absurd that contemplacion off the creatures should profit more then reading For wheras the Lord hath seth the print off the moste off his promises and other doctrines in the creatures for example off his fatherly care off prouiding al thinges necessary for his in the prouision for birdes off the ayer and rich array off the lilies off the field yt may comme to passe that that doctrine knowen by meanes off preaching and lying as yt were dead in the heart may after by sight and earnest vewe off the thinges them selues be quickened yet none off iudgement will say that the beholding off the creatures wrrowght more in this then preaching Howbeit if the cases he putteth in this point were true yet he is inexcusable thes plaisters comming a ye are and a half after the wound giuen by such straunge speach which owght to haue gone with yt if peraduenture they might althowgh not heale yet somewhat hide the lothsome rawnes Hytherto perteineth that which he hath disorderly put pag. 176. where he saith that the reading off Saint Paules epistles did the Romanes more good thē preaching which is cōtrary to S. Paules meaning who sheweth that he could not haue the like fruice off his ministery towardes them as off other nations because he was letted to comme and preach vnto
I will not deny but some other deceiued by him might fall into that error Vnto whom althowgh I could oppose an other flatly expounding these verses off reading ioined with exposition the exposition off the former not shutting owt preaching yet I had rather my confutation stand of reason then autoritie Which is that the holy gost shewing in the 7. verse that the Leuites made the people vnderstand the law in the 8. sheweth howe they did it for saith he they redd in the booke off the lavv distinctly and in giuing the sense caused them to vnderstand the reading Wheras those wordes which are tourned gyuing the sense can not 〈◊〉 withowt a gap be caried to the peoples attentiue hearing considering that it is spoken in that verse off the Leuites withowt resuming off the people ether expresly naming them or obscurely by any article Which hard translations when an other sense doth well agree to the suit off the text are by all meanes to be auoided That thes wordes the Leuites cavvsed the people vnderstand the lavv be nothing els but they made them gyue diligent eare vnto the reading yt is violent For beside that it is against the generall rule not to run to a figuratiue speach when the simple will which the D. can not deny agree with the residue off the text especially when both this and the other interpretation they gaue the sense are confirmed by the practise off the churche yt is vnconfirmed by any conference off scripture or circumstance of place confuted also by that this word is expounded by an other they made them knovv the lavv Where the scripture speaking off one thing diuersly if it speake figuratiuely in one word vseth to speake properly in an other Where both by the wordes and practise of the church in other places I shewed the place off the Actes to be vnderstanded off reading and preaching iointly the D. not answering the reason saith that the place is euidently for him which is a begging off that in question that he can reade no interpreter which enterpreteth yt otherwise no one being browght which followeth that sense that the circumstance off the place maketh for him becawse Saint Iames vseth for a reason to proue that the Iewish ceremonies could not be forthwith abolished that Moses had by reading of the law euery Sabboth so great autority which is manifestly against him for it maketh more for the confirmation of S. Iames sentence that he was both redd and preached euery sabboth then if he had bene onely redd cōsidering that his authority was so much the deeper setled in the heartes off the Iewes Hytherto perteineth that in the end off his booke where he trifleth for that the Adm. expoundeth reading is not feading by this it is bare feading which is vnworthy answer considering it is receiued in all tounges often to deny that to be doon which is doon insufficiently as is before noted That also he saith there repeted p. 718. off dissent with my self for that saying there that bare reading withowt a miracle can not saue from famishement I say in an other place that the word off God is easy giuing vnderstanding to idiots is friuolous Considering that I spake off reading not vtterly separate from preaching Yf it be easy and gyue vnderstanding by preaching and reading togither although not so by reading onely that standeth which I haue set downe That he exclameth off that sentence as Papisticall c. I haue shewed how it is catholike and his Papisticall that maketh so easy a way to saluatiō withowt preaching yt is well with vs and the scriptures kepe their honour if they bring to the elect saluatiō vsed and applied as the order which the lord hath set requireth onles paraduenture he will say the holy Sacramētes leese their honour when it is saied they are not effectuall to saluacion without men be instructed by preaching before they be partakers off them Hauing shewed that bare reading off scriptures can not make vnpreaching ministers occupy any place in the church remaineth yet the reading of Homilies with the Apocrypha in which couer is sowght for thē against the sentēce of condēnatiō and storme of the Lordes wrathfull iudgement which will follow if they repēt not speedely for where thes dry nources haue no milke of their owne the D. will haue thē yet giue sucke although of the becastes of others But this kinde off milke hauing taken winde shall appeare not to be so fit to nourish as that it may come into the church for a supply of sermone yt is enough if as for support off the nource sometimes other then hers be taken so to spare the pastor hardly able euery day to preach the godly Christian strenghthen him self with them at home In which treatise first cometh the D. reason Augustin and Chrysostome preached sermons in their churches therfore we may reade sermons in ours The absurditie wheroff lest it should be hidden he hath made a great deale bigger for charged with it he answereth that the committing them by writing vnto posterity argueth that they thought them very profitable vnto the church so that his argument is they are profitable therfore they may be red publikely in the church As if there were no profit reaped by reading thē priuatly or as if al thinges profitable for the church may be red openly in yt where are browght in to publike reading whole cartlodes off disputations of the Catholikes with Papistes ▪ Anabaptistes Arians likewise of Ecclesiasticall stories a hudge heape and other rables of heritikes and schismatikes which being profitable haue the D. ladder to clime vp into the pulpit But one thing we may note ▪ what is that that August and Chrysostom writ their sermons therfore it may be they red them sometimes in the church If yow be in earnest in earnest yow are a sleepe For so far be yow from concluding iustly that it is meet to reade them in the church that yow conclude not they were so much as red I pray yow haue any off our homilimakers red their homilies in the churches I thinck not onles it haue bene since yow wrote to make yowr argument seeme good So in thincking to make one note yow make two shamefull blots yow see not why they may not aswell now be red in the church as then preached a pitifull blindnes wheroff the remedy if yow will open yow eyes followeth Now to come to the 3. chap. Tract 21. The first and second diu be not worth the answer the third is answered except that he saith the Adm. proued not the sufficiency off the scripture by 1. Cor 1. 18. 1. Ro. 16. becawse there be manifest places for that pourpose as though it were thus to be charged if it vsed places which proue that although not the fittest Where vppon that the Lord admitteth no instrumētes be they neuer so vile in the seruice of the temple nor trūpets in assembling the people but
vvhich vvere sanctified to that vse although others vvere as apt to doo the vvorcke as they I concluded that homilies c. not sanctified of the Lord to that pourpose ovvght to be kept ovvt he answereth that similitudes be no sufficient proofe and that the Lord did not commaund that nothing should be red in the church but canonicall scripture not remembring that it is the holy ghostes which teacheth that the tabernacle with the vessels were made according to the patron off the church now The which in the holy trumpetes is more clearly seen considering that the holy gost commaunding them to be blowen by the priestes alone and comparing the publicke teaching with the sound off them doth not obscurely declare that they were shadowes therof Therfore as the trumpetâ— were sancrified to the temple by the commaundement off God so to make Homilies holy in Gods principall and publicke seruice the like autoritie is required Where I shew that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared in goodneâ— in themselues nor in fruict tovvard the hearer vvith the scripture and reading theroff wherin the D. laboured not but â—oâ—â—ered against the Adm. he answereth that nothing can therby be concluded against homilies which may not be against sermons and other interpretations and rather against sermons then homilies which is detestable For therby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and red more fruictfull to the hearers then the word off God preached Wherin he controileth also the order off our church which will haue homilies gyue place â—f there be any to preach For confutacion wheroff I send the reader to that before disputed â–ª for if the word preached be more fruictfull then the word yt selff red then reading off homilies inferior in fruict to the reading of scriptures by the D. confession heere must be muche more inferior to the word preached His reason is for I make no make no other difference betwixt homilies and sermons but that one is pronounced within booke the other not so Belike homilies and sermons are equall in all other thinges yet homilies excell sermons in that they are red in the booke the other is doon by liuely voice But is there no difference at all but this first â—et hâ—m vnderstand that sermons in the churche are expresly commaunded off the Lord are such as are necessary for all churches and which no one can want As for homilies if they were in this dearth off preaching graunted conuenient for our church yet haue they no commaundement wherby they are made necessary and such as the church is bound vnto they also are such as ether all or the most florishing churches haue not In which difference there is as great a goulf between them as is betwen heauen and earth I speake off them now as if they were conueniently ordeined For although in such case during the conuenience they ought to be kept as profitable orders off the church yt thes chaungeable constitutions compared with the eternall sawe off God are infinitely inferior so it is vtterly false which he saith afterward all kinde off publishing the doctrine in scripture haue necessary vses in the church Wherby he maketh thinges necessary to saluaceoÌ„ nether expressed nor necessarily concluded of the scripture and condeÌ„neth in this behalf all churches which ether haue bene or are not receiuing the vse off homilies Thus one 's the singular fruict off preaching the word is manifest to be so much greater then homilies reading as the meanes ordeined off the lord is more fruictful then that off men Secondly if they were conuenient yet they might both be made and publickely red withowt any of those ordinary ministeries which the lord hath appointed in his word for a priuate maÌ„ may write them as he may doo a commentary and if a minister make them yet he doth nor that by bond off his ministery for then he should leaue a part off it vndoon which wrote not homilies and hauing doon all other partes should be gilty off the not fulfilling off it for omitting this seing therfore there is no commaunded ministery off God required nether in making nor reading of them and sermoÌ„s can not be made withowt there is heere an other singular difference lifting vp preaching with the fruict theroff so far aboue homilies red â–ª as the Lordes autorised Embassadour with his broad seale and letters patentes is aboue him in whom no such markes appeare withowt whose ministery when as I haue shewed faith can not be engendred nor men ordinarily saued there being plentifull saluacioÌ„ withowt homilies reading as appeareth both otherwise and by other churches where they are not the difference of preaching with the fruict theroff is incomparably more then that by homilies reading The third difference is that where sermons are applied to the present circumstance which by chaunge off times budding off new vices rising of errors c. vary almost euery day this kinde off interpretation as that which is starcke and annuÌ„med can not poursue them for where the preacher with his sermon is able according to the manifold windinges and turninges of sinne to winde and turne in with yt to th end he may stricke it the homilies are not able to turne nether off the right hand nor off the left but to what quarter soeuer the enemies are retyred yt must keepe the traine wherin it was set off the maker And if it were possible which is not to make homilies against all diseases off vices and errors and that were also graunted that the reading ministers could both discerne the sickenes and apply the medicine laied vp in the homily which requireth the skill off a learned man yet as no physicion how cunning soeuer can so well prescribe at ones and in grosse against a disease as he that vpon euery step yt maketh giueth counseill and applieth his medicine so no homily maker be he neuer so great a diuine can at ones and before hand prescribe so apt and stroÌ„g remedies against sinne as he that doth yt vpon the present occasion Homilies then not able to comme to the vices further then vices coÌ„me to them their vse for this and other cawses aforesaied is priuate For a maÌ„ feeling him self assaulted in any wise and knowing a treatise arming him against that assault may for his vse be profitably occupied in it I leaue the difference in giftes instrumentall causes off sermons and homilies when as beside the giftes required in homilies ether reading or making there are in sermons required the gift off vtterance and memory I passe also that the D. in saying there is no difference between an homily red and a sermon preached but that the one is pronounced within booke the other not so maketh no differeÌ„ce between hym that writeth his sermon and readeth it and him that readeth an other manÌ„es not able to make one him self this shall be sufficlent to haue shewed that absurdity Where also goe to the ground other
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for
after the councell had saied that the gospels with other scriptures should be red on Sabboth daies yt addeth vve must not read bookes vvhich are ovvt off the canon but the canonicall bookes off the old and novv testament alone And where he would cōfirme his interpretatiō by the 47. canon off the third councell off Carthage he is againe indebted vnto Harding which against Maister Iewell alledging the councell off Carthage to proue that it commaunded nothing should be red in Christes congregation but the Canonicall scriptures answereth with the same wordes the D. doth charging him with falsehood To whom as now also to the D. the bishop answereth that the meaning off the councell vvas that nothing els shoulde be red which he proueth by the councell off Hippo an abridgement off that off Carthage whene it is thus written The scriptures canonicall vvhich are to be red in the church and beside vvhich nothing may be red and so goeth forward alledging other testimonies affirming partly that nothing owght partly that nothing was wont to be red in the church beside holy scripture His answer to the councell off Colen is too childish The councels wordes in the sixt Canon are these vvhere in times past yt vvas ordeined off the most holy fathers that the holy scriptures alone shoulde be red in the church vve knovve not by vvhat carelesnes other not to be compared vvith them are come into their place Wherby appeareth that it condemneth not onely reading off sainctes liues wheroff it speaketh after but generally the breach of the councels decree that nothing should be red in the church but holy scripture Where he museth how we can say that reading off homilies were meanes to instle the bible into corners seing we will haue the reading of scriptures giue place to preaching I haue shewed how grosse and intollerable ignorance it is where I proued the excellency of preaching before simple reading off scriptures but especially before homilies The obiection which I made off praier is answered the answer is not ones moued as for that the necessity off chaunging the wordes off scripture in praier is as strong against sermons preaching as homilies reading I haue shewed how false it is when as that chaunge is autorised by precise commaundement off God which can not be shewed for reading homilies His reason that the Apocrypha may be red in the church becawse the councell off Carthage decreing onely the reading off canonicall scripture tooke them in that nomber adding that they be aswell red in the church as counted portions off the ould and new testament is absurd For seing it is vtterly vnlawfull for them to take them as portions off the ould and new testament yt followeth by his owne reason that it is vtterly vnlawfull for them to be openly red Where he saith there is nothing in them contrary to the rest off the scripture accounting them as a part althowgh the reason be nothing worth considering that so a booke gathered owt off Cato Theognes and Cebes tables c. may be red in the churche yet I answer that there be many places partly plainly contrary to the holy scripture partly friuolous and vnworthy to be red For Esoras Apocrypha I will refer the reader partly vnto Caluins censure of them the treatise I doo not precisely remember sauing that it is like to be in one of those against the Anabaptists or Libertines whose gospell those bookes be and partly to the manifest contradiction with the holy scripture which referring the genealogy off Esra vnto Eleazar to whom the priesthood belonged is by the Apocrypha referred vnto Ely and consequently vnto Ithamar to whom yt did not apperteine Off some off the other I will gyue a few examples Where the holy gost condemneth the fact off Simeon and Levy towardes the Sichemites Iudith in propounding it for example and to strenghthen her faith in the cutting off off Holofernus head alloweth yt If it be saied but the booke doth not allow it The scripture neuer propoundeth a faultie praier withowt condemning off it especially so long The sonne off Syrach affirming that the true Samuell prophecyed after his death leaueth the disquieting off the iust in the courteousie off coniurers which is vngodly doctrine and contrary to that peace the scripture saith they be in where Daniell sheweth that the fire bourned after the three young men were throwen into it to the commendation of the power of God which kept them from suffring in any part off it the counterfait Daniell affirming that the Angell smote the flame off the fire owt of the fournace and cawsed as it were a moist hissing winde in the middest c. partly falsifieth partly discrediteth Daniel as one that lefte owt such weightie thinges as he there supposeth I passe by how vnworthy yt is that he that hath ouereaten him selff is bidden to rise and goe vomit and after get him self to rest which are preceptes fitter for the kitchin then for the church Likewise the Iewish fable of the fire takē to be hidden and other such toies and of commending him that slue him self off demaunding pardon off the reader a language vnmeet for the holy gost Thes few off a nomber which come to minde shall suffise for a tast And be cause the D. tasteth nothing but autoritie off men he hath Ierome of this minde which writing to a woman biddeth her take heed off all the Apocrypha affirming that they are not theirs vvhose names they beare that there are many faulty thinges mingled and that it requireth vvisdome to seeke for gold in durt The hymne also off the three children he runneth throwgh where Erasmus iestingly saith it is merueill that Ierome putteth this song vpō the spit meaning condemneth it seing it is both red and soung in churches euery vvhere as if it vvere some speciall holy thing Wherby it is not vnlike but that he speaketh in another place off the reading off Apocrypha to edyfying off the people not to confirmation off the doctrine is spoken rather story wise in telling what was doon in that time thē what he allowed for if it be daungerous for one to read them priuately howe must it needes be more to read them openly onles it be with exposition which is yet more absurd Except paraduenture to reconcile Ierome one had rather interprete those wordes the church reades off the priuate reading of euery one off the church wheroff there are examples Now I must put the D. also in minde that nether in his first nor later booke he hath answered the Adm. reason towching priuate reading onely of the Apocrypha because their name vvhich signifieth secret or hid doth speake as much If he will say they are so called because the writers of thē are vnknowen he can not so escape cōsidering that this name doth put a difference betwene them and canonicall which it could not if that
officers bringe singular fruict vnto the commeÌ„ wealth For whilest they conquere by the word riote adultry couetousnes pride idlenes c. wherby diseases beggery translations off inheritance from the right heires needles dearthes seditions rebellions whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth they may be well called the horse and chariot of the coÌ„men wealth But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied officers of the commeÌ„ wealth no more can the magistrate which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche be called properly the churche officer Yf as I see it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche because they being members by publike calling procure the quiet theroff they which are disposed may so speak I will not striue But why I esteme the title off head of the church not to agree vnto any simple creature etherin heauen or earth I haue shewed my reasons let the church Iudge The questioÌ„ is not whether the name of Archbishop is but whether it owght to be coÌ„tinued and if the coÌ„tinuance of it in our church draw such credit the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt ChristeÌ„dome must needes bring great preiudice But it is lawfull therin is the question Which althowgh he hath ofteÌ„ affirmed yet we are come to an end of the decisioÌ„ of this question by the scriptures and no word browght to confirme it Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse which will minister him nothing to say or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficieÌ„t yet if he would haue this title continew in the church he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it and confirmed them which wauer For the sixt diuis let the Iudgement be the readers Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math. Yowr transâ—ation the kinges off the Gentils wherby yow would prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil and ecclesiasticall power is faulty as that which withowt necessity goeth from the proper signification off the word For it signifieth naturally not the Gentils but symply any nation in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould and new testament and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part he calleth them by the same word here vsed Therfore it appeareth that there is nether any such meaning of the EuaÌ„gelistes and if there were yet he gaineth nothing For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils forasmuch as there was no King nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes Wheruppon our Sauiour was coÌ„pelled to take example off princely autority from the Gentils And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes yt was the high priestes and other ecclesiasticall persons Which beside that yt was bastard and degenerate from the institution off God it was both more ambitiously sowght as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories and more tyranically administred as appeareth in scriptures then any the most disordered gouernement amongest the Heathen So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition and tyranny in gouernment he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils when he had it at home Yt may be saied further that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills would therby pull owt off the peoples heades that fond opinion amongest them and the rest off Iewes that they at the comming off the Messias should be Emperours off all the world and all the Gentills be their subiectes Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy was grounded off that idlephansie And if neede required it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils which both came vnto their gouernement modestly and vsed yt with all equitie and commoditie off the subiectes as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes whose entry hath not bene so honest nor gouernement so easy vpon which consyderations it may appeare that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place Last off all there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretatioÌ„ For wheÌ„ as it is certeine that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others to this to be ministred vnto by others it must needes follow that the place which went before must be vnderstanded simply of domynion and not tyrannicall domynion for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning he should haue saied as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto or ambitiously to desyre it but modestly to rule The distinction also of the Magistrate and off the minister wherin the weight of this cawse lieth is not towched This diuision off domynion is altogether idle for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion from the ecclesiasticall person I ment lawfull and when as I deny that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all what place is there left to this diuision for what dominion soeuer he had proued to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe And as the diuision is superfluous so yt is vnskilfull For the two first partes the rule with oppression and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before And so it is not onely no good diuision but no diuision aâ— all Nether is he any happier in applying off it for where my second proposition was that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion he saith that is true in the two fyrste significations Wherby muste follow that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression or els for the Bishop For if it be lawfull for nether of them theÌ„ one is not seuered from the other in those kindes off domynion The last section off the 62. page c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices I will put ouer vnto the proper place Here the question is onely what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery The autoritie off man in Gods cawse weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place by Bucers Iudgement especially coÌ„sidering it hath counterpois of other as learned Howbeit although
I will ad others Wheras a Bishop may be ordeined by two or three other Bishops tharchbishop must be ordeined by all the Bishops off the prouince ether present or at the least consenting Now seing the ordination is off the forme off their ministerie and thes formall causes be diuers yt followeth that thes offices must needes be diuers And that the substantiall and essentiall forme of a Bishop is differente from that off tharchbishop yt is plaine also by that they are members off one diuision and therfore off necessitie differ in the substantiall forme as a man differeth from a brute beast not in circumstance but in that he is off an other nature And when the D. graunteth the effectes and worckes off tharchbishop to be diuers from those off the Bishop the one ruling thother obeing and that by oth gyuen and taken it seemeth very straunge that he should deny that it is a new and diuers office from those appointed in the scripture Furthermore when as the subiectes off the Bishop and Archbishop be diuers where about they be occupied the one hauing one church or to speake according to his sense one Diocese thother a whole prouince still it must fall owt that they are diuers offices Last off all forasmuch as offices in the scripture are perpetuall and thoffice off an Archbishop may be taken away by men by his owne confession yt must follow that they be diuers offices And if he looke when I should conclude a new minisâ—â—â—e beside that yt is all new which is straunge and straunge which is not coÌ„maunded by the word of God yt comming as shall appeare some hundreth yeares after the Apostles times whose onely autoritie is able to make the grey heares and antiquitie of a thing be reuereÌ„ced it followeth that this word new if he nourish any misterie in it is also truly verified of the ministerie of tharchbishop Timothe and Tite shall neuer be proued to haue had any such autoritie ouer the rest and if they had yet yt falleth not on tharchbishops side seing they were no Bishops but Euangelistes as hath appeared When the church appointed one Bishop to rule ouer all Ministers Elders and Deacons in the same church yt did appoint a new ministerie and all thes reasons almost before browght against the newnes off tharchbishops functions returne vpon the head of that institution And if there be any hould in the Ans word he hath otherwhere affirmed that thoffice off a Bishop is superior vnto the office off a Pastor yf so it is not the same But why dare not the D. aswell confesse that the church may erect a new mynisterie seing he affirmeth flatly as much in effect for to proue an Archbishop he alledgeth that beside those in the scripture the church may appoint both names and offices now I would gladly know first whether when the church appointeth an office that was neuer before a new office or no and then whether a new office be a new mynysterye And yff to erect vpp an office which was neuer be to erect a new office and a new office be a new mynysterie it must follow that the churche in erecting an other office then is set forth in scripture erecteth a new ministerie The Ans is afraied to confesse a new ministerie and not afraied to confesse a new office off which superstition I would gladly vnderstand some reason Now where he would haue the care off our Sauiour ouer his church in time off the gospel to consist in that he hath set downe the doctrine more plainly in all poinctes then vnder the law this being a doctrine off saluacion vnder the law that there should be ministers in the church yt followeth by his owne saying that he hath set yt downe more plainly in all pointes now then vnder the law Therfore also this point how many orders and degrees off ministerie owght to be considering that that was precisely defined in the law is more narrowly bounded in the gospel Thus he defending more in deed then in wordes he dare set downe is almost at continuall battaile with himself and hath scarce at any tyme his proofes and propositions of one measure But that I follow not the chase off wordes leauing his meaning where 〈◊〉 any light footing of it to be found that which he would say and wherwith his pourpose is vpholden can not stand that albeit our Sauiour hath tawght the doctrine more plainly now then vnder the lawe yet it followeth not that he hath performed that in the gouernement off the church If this be his meaning as I saied there is great iniurie doon vnto the church great dishonor vnto our Sauiour Christ For he hauing at all tymes doon the office not onely off a Doctor in teaching but also off a king in prescribing the manner and forme off gouernement vnto yt howmuch soeuer he is saied to haue doon lesse in appointing the outward gouernement off his church now then vnder the law so muche is both he robbed off that part off his kingly office which God his heauenly Father annointed hym vnto and the church spoiled of the fruict which should come vnto her therby Yt ys therfore a most certein doctrine that in all thinges perteining to the kingdom of heauen whether in matter off doctrine or gouernment the Lord hath in as great specialtie marcked them owt as ether before or vnder the law In cyuill matters and thinges perteining to this present life he hath I graunt vsed a greater particularytie with them then amongest vs framing lawes according to the qualitie of that people and coontrey wherin the leauing of vs at greater libertie ys so far from prouing the like libertie in thinges perteining to the kingdom off heauen that they rather proue a streighter bond For euen as when the Lord would haue his fauour more appeare by temporall blessinges off this life towardes the people vnder the law then towardes vs he gaue also polityke lawes most exactly wherby they might both most easely come into and most stedfastly remaine in possessyon off those earthly benfites euen so at this tyme wherin he would not haue his fauour so much esteemed by those owtward commodities is required that as his care in prescribing lawes for that pourpose hath somewhat fallen in leauing them to mennes coÌ„sultations which may be deceiued so his care for conduit and gouernement of the life to come should if it were possible rise in leauing lesse to the order off men then in times past And the D. should ether haue cut off quite that part off the Kingly office off Christ which consisteth in owtward gouernement off his church or els haue let yt had the full course Now when he graunteth that beside the doctrine off saluacion he entred into the description off outward gouernement off the church saying beside the doctrine he ordeined there should be not onely fit ministers to publish it but officers to gouerne the people in godlines as if in beginning
how this vvill agree vvith that here in the tenth and 13. diuis I haue shewed that it is one thing to be conteined an other to be expressed in scripture Therfore if yowr cawse haue no better hould then that it must goe to the ground I haue shewed how this answer of leauing thinges to the order off the church varied by circumstance c. can not stand in the Archbishops case nor ordinary gouernement of the church The argument is not off lykes or payres but of the smaller vnto the great And although it should be true that yow say that the Lord loued the church then aswell as he doth now yet the reason is still of the les vnto the great For yf he did so particularly describe the offices not of such excellencie and vveight as the offices and mynisteries of the gospell yt must follow that he hath much more vsed that dyligence in particular description of the mynisteries hereof If the 4. off Iohn meane that our Sauiour should tell all thinges necessary to saluation then the Mynisterie vvith the degrees theroff being necessary and vvithowt the vvhich the Lord doth not ordinarily gyue any saluacion at all yt is cleare that he hath also declared all degrees thereoff That owt off Sainct Iohn 20. is spoken of the miracles our Sauiour did not off his doctrine and is thrust in by strong handes in this place The cheif amongest the rest off the Mynisters I might well with S. Paul call the pillers and therfore if the Lord should haue made no mention off the Archbishops they keping suche a place as they doo yt is truly saide that the pillers should haue bene forgotten Yf the Magistrate were an officer of the church and not of the commen wealth there are many places in scripture both ould and new that describe his office ād all that perteineth to him at large Wherof if the Ans can bring but one for his Archbishop this controuersie is at an end Here be many we knowes wherof some are not indebate and those vvhich be haue no causes annexed vvith them vvherby other might come to knowledge off them as vvell as he Yt is therfore enough to haue mentioned mine answer vvithout staying in confutation of all those thinges vvhich he at all aduentures throweth owt to make vp an answer He saith it is daungerous to say that the ministeries owght not to be reteined withowt which the church is fully builded becawse the Magistrate is therby shut forth as well as the Archbishop Our questiō is what ecclesiasticall ministeries are sufficient the mention therfore off the ciuil Magistrate is absurd Also it is too great ether ouersight or peruersenes not to vnderstand that an vniuersall rule is not to be racked to euery thing but is true off those thinges vvheroff it is gyuen Beside that hereby at vnawares he confesseth that the church may be fully builded and accomplished withowt a Christian Magistrate which is against that he saith the magistrate is the head of the church His exception that there is no perfection off vnitie off the church by reason off good and bad mingled first is nothing to this question secondly yt is a quarell not against me but S Paul vvhose wordes I vsed Thirdly as the ministeries off the vvord are saide to saue and bring vs to the kingdome off heauen becawse they gyue both entrance and aduancement therunto although vve come not to full possession off them so long as we being in this life need them still so they are vvell saied to bring vs to perfectiō of vnitie because hauing begun to knit vs together here they follow still vvith new increases vntill vve come to perfection in the life to come As for that there must be offices as well to preserue and kepe the perfection off vnitie as to build yt and bring it therunto beside that for shift off answer he is driuen as yt were with one breath to affirme that he denied before off the perfection of vnitie he must vnderstand that the church is alwaies in building as long at it is here vpon earth and alwaies in knitting Therfore if those offices be sufficent to build and knit they are perfectly sufficient and if tharchbishops office be to kepe the church builded and knit yt is manifest vve may spare him here and that his seruice must then begin when all other ministries take end The next diuis hath for answer according to the D. coustome onely that which I preuēting answered afterwad sauing that he addeth as an exceptiō that there be Apostles which there reckened are notwithstanding by vs shut owt from the present estate off this church as yf he vnderstood not that in the founding of the church thes may be necessarie which afterward are not which also being intreated off in an other place needeth not here to be repeated Yt is Calu. which reasoneth of the place of the Ephesiās that forsomuch as the Apostle saith that the church is fully builded withowt a Pope therfore there owght to be no Pope and how slenderly soeuer he seemeth to the Ans to haue reasoned yet shall yt appeare by the vanitie of his exceptiōs against it cōming afterward to be discussed that yt is weighty But where he saith albeit the argumēt be good against the Pope yet yt ys not so against the archbishop onles he can exempt hym by miracle or teach vs some other Logick then hath hitherto bene heard off the reason includeth him as well as the Pope For if it be graunted that the Popes office is therfore vnprofitable to the church becawse S. Paul made no mention off it in the ministeries requisite for the building theroff there being like wise no mention off the office off an Archbishop yt must theruppon follow that tharchbishop also is vnprofitable yf there be the same cawse there must follow the same effect The reason added off the Pope doing thinges which tharchbishop doth not claiming thinges which tharchbishop claimeth not c. hath no place at all for the question is not off the abuse and tyrannie off the Pope but whether as it is vnprofitable that one should gouerne all the churches in the world so yt be also that he should gouerne all in a whole prouince And by the D. answer the office off Pastors should be vnlawfull if they chalenge vnto them selues thinges vnlawfull and the Popes office good and lawfull if he bearing rule ouer all churches would absteine from those and such like chalenges which the Ans setteth downe The contrary wheroff is true For as the Pastors office can by no owtrage of him that exerciseth it be made vnlawfull so the vsage of dominion off one ouer all be yt neuer so moderate and qualified can neuer be lawfull Last of all the Archbishop him self if he should chalenge those thinges in his prouince which the Pope chalengeth ouer the world should be by this reason as vnlawfull an officer as the Pope
no merueill if he were ignorant off the difference between a booke and an epistle and therfore not vnlike but Polidore helped him in his title for the next diuis I am content that the issue declare from whence the archbishop came This is deintie and tender geere and such as I can not deale with diuers times before his answer hath bene that tharchbishops ministerie differeth from the Bishops towching order here he saith they differ not in order before to proue that the church might appoint an archbishop he saied that it might appoint an office beside the offices off the scriptures now he is gone from that saying the Archbishops ministerie is no other ministrie but an other degree Also in an other place he to mainteine tharchbishop saith the church may ad ministeries here because he is ashamed off that he denieth that yt is a new ministerie Then forasmuch as his answer standeth in this difference off ecclesiasticall office and degree and againe betwene ecclesiasticall degree and order becawse I thinck they were neuer heard off before they need some autoritie off the scripture at least some Ecclesiasticall writers to confirme them And beside that in ecclesiasticall writers the mynisteries are separated one from an other by degree the Ans him self in an other place will haue the word degree when it is saied they get vnto them selues a good degree to signifie a diuers ministrie from the Deaconship Likewise in an other place to proue that a Bishop is aboue a priest he vppon certein autorities concludeth that in those times there were three degrees off ministers bishop priest and deacon whereuppon yt must follow that if the Archbishop differ from the bishop in degree ecclesiasticall he must differ in ministerie euen as the degree off deacon being different from the Elder maketh a seuerall mynisterie from yt yea theruppon followeth that there being then but three degrees in the church wheroff the archbishop was none by his owne saying there was then no archbishop seing he maketh him a seuerall degree from them which is a manifest ouerthrow off that he defendeth In an other place to proue Timothe archbishop he alledgeth that thoffice off tharchhishops and bishops be one becawse whatsoeuer is necessarie for a bishop is necessarie for an archbishop which is ridiculous For then a bishop is all one with an Elder considering that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an Elder is necessarie for a bishop and the Euangelistes office the same that an Apostles considering that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an Euang. is necessarie for an Apostle Where to proue the offices all one he should haue saied not onely that it is necessarie for an archbishop which is for a bishop but also that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an archbishop â—s likewise for a bishop Where he saith they differ onely in order and policie and therfore all attributed in the Epistle to Timothe the Archbishop agreeth vnto euery bishop theroff followeth that a commen as he is called not differing in office from our bishop as himself confesseth after shall by the same reason haue power to doo all thinges described in that epistle and consequently make ministers and put owt as well as our bishops doo Thes thinges therfore were giuen owt or euer they were well thowght off some time tharchbishop differeth in office from a bishop sometime he differeth not sometime he differeth in order sometime not some time in degree sometime not To proue that S. Peter by him self withowt the autoritie off other Apostles instituted Archbishops ys browght the example off S. Paul which made Timothe and Tite Archbishops which is to proue one thing in controuersie by that which is likewise and is all one as if one doubting the suffiencie off his creditor in steed off some substanciall man to assure his debt should haue a banck rowt browght to be bownd vnto him Which manner off reasoning when all men know how absurd it is it appeareth that the Ans vsing it continually is as they say at the end off his rolle That S. Paul did not appoint Titus and Timothe of his owne autoritie onely hath before appeared that he did not appoint theÌ„ Archbishops shall afterward God willing be shewed Beside that yt hath bene already off Timothe shewed that he was an Euangelist and the same reason is off Tite To my other reason that S. Peter would not graff the most noble plant as it is counted off the ministerie off the gospell in the rotten stocke off Archflamines he answereth that Peter might place Archbishops where the Archflamines were not in respect off them but in respect off the cytie Which distinction I confesse I vnderstand not onely I see that in this clowde and mist off confused and vndistinct distinctioÌ„ he would steale away vnespied for yf in the same cyties onely where there were Archflamines as we are borne in hand and in place off them Archbishops were placed and as the Archflamines were set to ouersee the flamines so the Archbishops to ouersee the bishops how can it be but they were placed as well in respect off those Achflamines as off the cities For they differ not in this point from Archflam considering that as archbishops were placed in respect off great cyties so were the Archflam before them Here also the Answ floteth in his iudgement off Peter For before he saide he had the cheife rule off the â—â—â—stles in all matters and here he was not aboue them in power so that onles he can mynce vs a diuersity betwene superior in rule and superior in power yt is cleare that he is not the same man here that he was there The lordes preistes and Sacrafices were before the preistes and sacrifices off the Gentills therfore that exception God instituted preistes and sacrifices though the Gentils had the like â—â— vaine to proue that there may be Archbishops as there were Archflamines A Kinge was necessarie for the Israelites to shadow owte to theÌ„ the kingdome of our S. Christe therfore that exaÌ„ple is owte of place To proue conformite betwene the people of God and Idolaters in thinges which are not necessarie as the Archebishoprick is confessed beside that yt ys an euill conclusion to saie there maie be conformitie betwene the people off God and Idolaters in cyuill affaires therfore in ecclesiasticall to ordeine a bishopp and mynister being the institution of God in euery churche where there was other a flamen or masse preiste can not be saide to be framed according to those orders But to ordeine an Archbishop not instituted off God bothe in that place where the Archflamen was and with that rule and autoritie ouer the bishopes which the archflam had ouer their flameÌ„s can not be imagined but to haue bene framed according to that Idolatrous function Yf yow will therfore make the like yow must proue that as yt ys the institucion of God that in euery churche there sholde be a bishop or mynister
much a minister bestowethe in a vocation which is not his so muche he leaueth his owne and therby manifest that in altering the wordes I kepte the sense And so yt still fallethowte that my falsifying which the Answ penne doothe so willingly runne vpon is nether with any aduantage to my cause nor disaduantage vnto his The two nexte sections I let passe as hauing no matter off answer What attendance the prelatship off the Garter requireth and what absence from a Bishops charge being a thinge in the knowledge off all I leaue whether he hathe manifestly peruerted the wordes off the Admonition which here he denieth the bookes off bothe sydes are vvitnes His slaunders first we take a waie the princes authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons then we woulde giue to vnderstande that he maketh yt in her maiestyes power to minister the worde and Sacramentes still confirme his shameles impudencie of the one there is no syllable that can be pulled that waies The wordes of which he would vvreste the other be yt is not lavvfull to take those vvhich god hathe appointed to the mynistry to applie to other vses there mentioned Which because yt falleth into the question off residence before handled and into that bearing cyuill office by the Ecclesiasticall person herafter God willing to be disputed the resolution ys to be taken from those places Where in the laste dyuision he calleth vppon my answer to the tytles off Lordes grace c. beside that he hathe nothing but bare sayinges withowte shewinge forthe any matter he hathe answer Thus after large promises off shewing the greate antiquitie off thes names that they were not onely in the Councell off Nice but are manifestly to be founde in all stories and writers before the councell off Nice after highe wordes againste those which denie the pretended antiquitie after rifling and ruffling vp euerie darcke corner where thes greate and glorious names might be hidden after hell yt self hath bene moued and sommoned to witnes of this antiquitie yt is manifest that thes names nor no one of them hathe hetherto bene shewed in any one Councell writer or storie before the Councell of Nice and then onely the name Metropolitane which by the Answ owne account was abowt the yeare 330. yt ys manifest also that the names Archbishop archdeacon Primate c. be not shewed owte off any ether Councell storie c. before Epiphanius time vvhich vvas aboute the yeare 380. and so manifeste that thes names being not founde in moste aunciente monumentes could not haue their allowance what approbacion they haue had sythens they came into the church I leaue yt to be estemed partly off that which hathe bene and partly off that which shall be God willing alledged â–ª being bent as well against the office as name off archbishop Which I therfore forbeare to set downe here leste I shoulde be compelled to repeate them againe Caput 3 Diuis 1. THat the reader maie haue clearer light to iudge of our writinges on both sydes in the rest off this controuersie and that we may be better furnished of weapons againste this greate leuie off pretended autorities two questions seeme necessarie to be decided before we come vnto them The one whether the worde off God hathe ordeined that in euery seuerall congreation there shoulde be a bishop which the Answ dothe flatly denie and further saith yt appeareth owte off certeine ecclesiasticall writers and the exampels off Timothe and Titus that the Apostels appointed bishops onely in principal townes and cities The other is whether there were allowed in one citie 2. or moe bishops which likewise he flatly denieth can be shewed to haue bene from Christâ—â— time and that the whole practise off the prymitiue churche is againste yt Yf thes thinges be shewed to haue bene ordeined off the Apostels yt muste folowe that this institution off God banished by Satan owght to be called home an that all autoritie off men and coustome exalted againste this must yealde theÌ„ selues prisoners Likewise if these be shewed the trwthe of expositioÌ„ of the testimonies of the moste aunciente writers shall better appeare vvherby we haue shute the bishoplike autoritie in the circuite aÌ„d roundell of one church which the Ans would haue extended vnto a realme or diocese And so shall come to pas that they which hauing all their senses possessed of the coustome of thes later and corrupter times when they reade or heare off a bishop in the scripture or in the moste auncieÌ„te writers conceiue forthwith a bishop of the same mould that ours be shall a greate deale easelier correcte their error For if a bishop in the Apostels time and off their institution was the bishop off one churche onelie by all likelihood those times which folowed nexte after them kepte them neerest vnto that image whervpon will fall owte that this vsurped autoritie of bishops ouer their fellow ministers did by litle and litle encrease according to the measure of time further from that wherin thapostels liued and nearer vnto that wherin Antichrist was fully setled which thinges although they haue light enough in them selues yet to cleare this matter better there shall be God willing set downe certein testimonies of the most auncient times wherby as by certein traces the truth off thes thinges may be easelier found owt The first that euery particular church should haue her bishhop is manifest by Paul to Timothe For seing the description of a bishop which he gyueth doth agree vnto the minister of euery congregacion and nothing there required in the one which is not in the other it followeth that the minister off euery congregacion is the bishop theroff For the description agreing with euery of them the thinges described must likewise Secondly onles he doo by this description off the bishop set forth the nature off euery minister of the word in his congregation in describing the offices off the churche he hath left owt the principalest membres and was more carefull in describing the Deacons ministerie not occupied in the vvord then the preaching ministeries but that is absurd yt must follow that he vnderstood them by the name off bishop Furthermore S. Paules bishop was appointed to the same place wherunto his Deacons but his Deacons were assigned to a particular congregation as appeareth both by the vse of the scriptures aÌ„d also by that after this corruption entred that euery church had not her bishop yet it had her Deacons as is to be seen by that alledged of the Deacons off the churches off Mariotes S. Paul also there assigning the charge and care of the bishop ouer the church of God must ether gyue him charge ouer the whole bodie of the catholike church or ouer one particular congregation or of the faithfull companie of one howse but he extendeth not his charge ouer all the Catholike church for that were to make a Pope not a bishop nor restraineth him to the faithfull of one
howshoulde considering that he opposeth the gouernement off his howse to the gouernement of the church yt followeth therfore that he appointeth hym to one particular church That by this word church must be vnderstanded one of thes three significacions yt standeth vpon this grownd that in none off S. Paules other Epistles or S. Lukes writinges that word church is euer vsed otherwise and neuer signifieth the church ether off Prouince or Dioces For when the Apostles vtter the companie off belieuers in such a circuit they alwaies speake in the plurall nombre and call them the churches of such and such a place And if it can be shewed that this word is taken in them for the faithful in a whole prouince or dioces I will giue ouer the hould of this argument If as I perswade my self that can not be doon then the church assigned vnto S. Paules bishop is a particular congregacion Moreouer S. Paul writing to Tite to appoint Elders throwgh euery towne which were vnblamable addeth because a bishop must be vnblamable Wherupon ether euery towne must haue a bishop or his reason is not well knit For he should both giue his rule off one thing and his reason off an other and it should come to passe that those churches vvhich haue no bishops might lawfully haue slaunderous and spotted bishops seing his onely reason why elders of euery towne owght to be withowt reproche is because a bishop must be so Againe vvhere it is saide that Paule and Barnabas apointed by voice elders in euery churche ether beside the auncientes off the churche the Bishop was ordeined or els the famous cities of Antioche I conium and Listra in the number of those churches there mencioned receiued no bishop But the Ans him selfe affirmeth that the Apostels ordeined bishops in the principall cities and townes therfore vnder thes wordes ▪ they ordeined elders by voice in euery churche ys vnderstanded that they ordeined bishops in euery churche For S. Luke vsing the same wordes to set for the the ministerie off all other churches wherwith he settethe forthe the ministerie off those famous cities vnlesse he will denie there were Bishops there he muste off necessitie graunt that the other churches had their bishops aswell as they Laste off all vnles yt be the institution off God that euery particular congregacion shoulde haue her bishop in that largies and bountifull liberalitie of ecclesiasticall ministers which S. Paule shewethe our Sauiour Christe bestowed vppon his churche after he was ascended nothing falleth to the lot of the partilar churches But yt ys horrible iniurie vnto the liberalitie off Christe so to shutte his hande which he opened so wide therfore it muste needes be that our Sauiour Christe gaue euerie churche her Bishop as for the apostles Euāgelistes and Prophetes beside that their ministerie was not streightned vnto particuler churchs they are as before hathe bene shewed ceassed There remaine therfore of the ministeries there reckened the Pastor and Doctor wherof whether the bishop be the same with the Pastor as some thinck or whether he conteine both Pastor and Doctor as other some esteme it ys manifest that ether euery particular churche must haue a bishop ▪ or els none of those ministeries there recited For if it be saied that taking a bishop for the same vvith a Pastor the particular congregations hauing the Doctor may haue one off them althowgh they haue no bishop it is easy to answere that if the Pastor most necessarie and vvhom the churche can worst spare doo not belong the Doctor can les be thowght to apperteine to a particular church And thus far owt of the scripturs for proofe of a bishop in euery particular church yt followeth to shew the traces of this institution in the primitiue church vvhich succeded next vnto the Apostels The same the D. supposeth the true Ignatius writeth thus Euery church should haue her altar and euery churche her bishop And lest peraduenture the D. should interprete euery church euery dioces or prouince beside that I haue shewed that signification of churche was vnknowen vnto those times the autors meaning is cleare to the contrary when he saithe euery church should haue her communion table which he calleth vnproperly an altar Onles therfore the D. will say that his meaning is there should be but one cōmunion table in a whole dioces or prouince this hole is stopped vp against him And if as he would make vs belieue this was Iohn thapostles scholer then amongest the testimonies of men this may worthely beare the bell Yf not as I for my part thinck yet the later he is the longer is proued this order of hauing a bishop in euery particular congregation seing he sheweth what the face off the church was in those times when he liued Epiphanius prouing a bishop and preaching Elder to differ which cometh after to be examined saith vvhere not as the Pope and the Answ in what great cytie soeuer there vvas found any vvorthy to be bishop there a bishop vvas appointed yea and vvhere there vvas not to fournish both bishop and preaching Elder there thapostles made a bishop and left the Elder So that by his Iudgement bishops were in greater nombre then then preaching Elders That the same was also in Cyprians time shall appeare God willing in the places after to be handled owt off him From his time vnto the Councell off Nice we haue the storie of Eusebius wherin as in a glasse we may see that the churche in this point was litle altered Considering that he assigneth the bishops charge continually for any thing that ether the Ans sheweth or I can gather to one church or to the churches in one citie onely Which maie better appeare in that his bishops are so often times called the bishop off a parishe as hath bene shewed and that he confoundeth a parishe with a churche a pastor with a Bishop as shall appeare so that onles the Answ will saie that there was in those times but one parish church pastor in compas off a prouince or dioces he muste be constreined to confesse that euery particuler churche for the moste parte had a Bishop And althowgh after time of the Nicene Councell there is no dowbt but that as the Bishops had more occasions of enlarging their boundes throwghe the disordered zeale off the godlie Emperours so they let not slip those occasions yet if we consider the estate off the churche what yt was abowte 400. yeares after Chryste we shall finde that bishops were not the tenth parte so thyn sowen as ours be now If a bishop ranne in to any slaunder and the slaunder pressing him he coulde not assemble a greate nomber of bishops to the ende he shoulde not remaine in that slaunder the Councell off Carthage was off aduise that his cause shoulde be hearde off twelue bishops and his owne bishop And an other that if an elder were accused he might call 6. bishops frō
but vpon gainsaying And in that Boniface which wrote vnto Zachary had appointed those three bishops in small parishes and townes all vnderstand that yt was no new thing then to haue bishops in such places But because he closethe his eyes and will not see thinges set before him at leaste let him grope them The false Damasus and verie Antichriste writing of this matter inueiethe vehemently againste the appointinge off Bishops in villages which he calleth countrey bishops And yt appeareth plainly in that Epistle that they had the selfe same autoritie in all thinges which citie Bishops had There he saith also that yt was forbidden that there shoulde be any bishop ether in small cytie or in village or Castell leste the name and autoritie of a bishop should waxe vile And therfore commaundeth that those bishops off villages being disgraded off their Bishoprickes shoulde be throwne downe to the order off preisthoode Heere the D. maie vnderstande that euen in the time off Antichriste this order off euerie churche hauing her bishop was not so abolished but that there were remnantes off it in diuers places and some which mainteined the libertie wherin God had sed them againste that owtrage off Satan who becawse he woulde make off bishops yong Princes and saw that euerie parishe was not hable to mainteine that pompe wente abowte with robberie off the reste to lifte vp the heade off one Heroff yt may be seene what cawse the D. hathe to charge me with the falsifiyng of the Popes wordes and how his habilite to defende the Popes decree doothe not answer his desire As for the reasons I browght to proue that the placingâ— off bishops in villages and small cyties coulde no more bringe them in contempte then the shininge of the sonne or falling off the raine in villages as vvell as in cyties breedeth contempte off those benefites or the name or autoritie of father gyuen to poore men as vvell as riche maketh that ordinance off God nothing set by he answereth not a worde Where I further alledged the foresight and wisdome of God which shoulde receiue a greate wound if in instituting for euery churche a Bishop he shoulde not haue foreseen this inconuenience which the Ans vppon the Popes autoritie meinteineth he askethe when and where I haue I truste shewed him now bothe althowghe he if he had ether vnderstoode or remembred what he wrote before twise or thrise when with Ierome he propoundeth vnto vs that Bishop and elder were all one by Gods worde he should not haue falleÌ„ into this extreme boldenes of denying euery thing which is enemie vnto his vnaduised assertions For yf yt be the institution off God that euerie churche shoulde haue a teaching elder and that elder according to Ieromes saying alowed off him were a bishop yt muste needes folowe that to haue a bishop in euerie churche ys the institution of god And because the D. boweth so casely vnder the autoritie of men that he estemeth it the beste proofe let him vnderstande that this was the iudgemeÌ„t off twoo of the moste famous meÌ„ which our lande browght forth thes manie yeares And the same also executed for the testimonie off the truth off god wheroff one of them amongest other thinges suffred also for this cause nowe in hande a The sixte Article which M. Barnes was condemned for is this I vvill neuer belieue nor can neuer belieue that one man maie by the lavve off God be bishop off tvvoo or three cyties yea off an vvhole contrey for that yt is contrary to the doctrine of S. Paul vvhich vvriting vnto Titus commaundeth that he should ordeine a bishop in euery tovvne prouing that by the worde elder the Apostell meaneth a bishop M. Hooper shewing that one man may not haue two lyuinges addeth but this is clavv me and I vvill clavv the. If the bishops permitted not their priestes to haue 2. benefices it may fortune the priestes vvould likevvise say the bishop should be bishop but of one citie And in deed so it should be and till magistrates bring theÌ„ to that point it shal he as possible to heare a bishop vvade godly and symply thorovvgh the scripture in all case off religioÌ„ as to driue a camell thorovvgh the eie of a nedle A great pitie it is to see hovv far the office off a bishop is degenerated from the originall in the scripture It vvas not so in the beginning vvhen bishops vvere at the best as the Epistle to Tite testifieth that vvilled him to ordeine in euerie citie of Crete a bishop And in case there vvere such loue in them novv as vvas then tovvardes the people they vvould say them selues there vvere more to doo for the best off them in one cytie then he could doo They knovv the primitiue church had no such bishops vntill the time off Siluester the first c. Off thes thinges partly and partly of that which shall be hereafter God willing spoken I leaue yt to be esteemed off the indifferente reader with how small ether knowledge or conscience the D. hathe affirmed that yt can nether be shewed by scripture nor confirmed by anie ecclesiasticall writer or practise off the primitiue churche that ether euery churche shoulde haue her bishop or that there should be bishops in villages and small Cyties Thother off the two questions remaineth whether yt can be shewed by scripture and by examples off the primatiue churche â–ª that there were in one churche moe bishops then one which we might in parte haue bene eased off if the answ hauing fallen owte with the trwth were not likewise falleÌ„ owte with him selfe For he approuing off the testimonie off Ierome which affirmeth elders and Bishops all one and that the elders off a churche chose one amoÌ„geste them which onely kepte the name of bishop dothe withall necessarily affirme that before the time that this ordinance was established there were diuers bishops in one church And in saying the word bishop is not commenly vsed but for him that in degree is aboue the rest he at vnawares confesseth that there were diuers bishops in some churches althowgh not commenly But becawse he hath a facultie in denying and affirming withowte shewing any reason and that his worde is no bonde to tie him with all when yt maketh againste him some thinge also muste be spoken towching this matter And seing I haue shewed that he is by S. Paules determination a Bishop which is apâ—e to teache and to exhorte to conuince false doctrine and reproue corrupte maners and that the Ans can not denie but one suche alwaies is not sufficiente for some churches especially where the commoditie of assemblies is so good that euery daie the worde off good ys to be preached yt can not be denied but that there bothe maie and owght to be moe bishops in a churche muche more in a cytie then one And that this was the institution off God it appearethe by the practise of the churches in
thapostels times at Philippos where Paul expresly saluteth diuers bishops at Ephesus froÌ„ wheÌ„ce certein bishops sent for came to MiletuÌ„ Likewise in the church off Thessalonica there were diuers Presidentes the same by the D. diuinitie that Bishop or Archbishop And as it was in those churches so yt ys like to haue bene in other off greate resorte to heare the worde off God and habilitie to enterteine a more plentifull ministery Nether let him as he is wont oppose vnto the manifest wordes off the scripture Ambroses exposition vpon the place to the Philippians nor that which goeth vnder Ieromes name vpon the same For as for Ambrose a childe may see how violently he forceth the texte and what inconuenience he runnethe into to make yt agree with the coustome off his times wherin this order was for the moste parte worne owt And as for the other he is a couÌ„terfaicte and so marked not onely because he contrarieth that which Ierome did plainly teache but also for that the forme off writing is farre off another complexion Yt can not be denied but that this order of God was strickeÌ„ at by diuers canons off Councels and that as this was the firste attempte which the deuill gaue to abridge the nomber off Bishops in the churche so yt was more aunciente then that other off robbing the villages and small Cyties off their bishops Vpon what rotten groundes this abuse crepte in cometh afterward to be considered here yt is to be noted that this corruption was not so generall but that often times yt admitted exception And notwithstanding bothe custome and Canons in that behalfe good men vpon occasion made no conscience to ordeine twoo bishops of one citie Euseb maketh mention of Narcissus and Alexander Bishops at ones in one parishe and if yt be true which he reporteth that the same was by reuelation from heauen yt ys a good argumente that this voice was as yt were a repeale off that custome which had bene browght in contrarie to the firste institution off god Yt is writteÌ„ off Augustine that he was made bishop off Hippo bothe by the instante requeste off Valerius then another bishop there and by the consente off the Metra politane Bishop off Carthage And albeit in consideration off the canons made to the contrarie Augustine was lothe to take the charge yet instantly required he accepted yt Augustine him selfe also was off aduise that in those places where was a Donatiste Bishop and a catholike if the Donatiste returned vnto the vnitie of the churche then he should be receiued into the felowship off the bishops office with the catholike bishop Where he putteth onely thes exceptions if the people vvill suffer yt yf becavvse yt is not accoustomed the people vvill beare it Wherby is cleare that notwithstanding it was forbiddeÌ„ by canons yet he thowght yt not vnmeet to haue two bishops in one church if the people would beare it and if he were of this aduise notwithstanding the couÌ„cels to the coÌ„trary how much more would he haue thought it meet if the church had required aÌ„d made sute for it Also it is not to be forgotten that although this corruption off gyuing the name bishop to one in a church from the rest to whom it did off right belong be auncient yet godly men misliked it and by all likelihood broke it of Which Ieromes wordes do apparantly import this coustome vvas in the church off Alexandria from S. Mark vntill Heraclas and Dionysius For onles there were some change then why would he not rather haue saied from S. Mark vntill his time considering that all that time there was continuall succession of church and bishops Therfore belike those godly men seing the mischeif like to ensue of that coustome and vnderstanding that thinges owght to be called to the apostolick institution changed that coustome Furthermore it is diligently to be considered that this order off hauing one onely in euery church to haue the name of Bishop ouerspred not the church soudenly and at a clap but entred by litle and litle so that it is like there were diuers ages past or euer this had a generall passage thorowgh all the churches in the world By all which it may appeare how the Ans is abused in saying it can not be shewed from Christes time that euer there were two bishops in one church Thes thinges being thus laied let vs now come to Cyprians Testimonies Caput 3. VNto the firste diuision I haue answered In the second to proue that Cyprian speakethe off an Archbishop the D. concludeth thus yt is the principall office of the archbishop to prouide that peace and vnitie be kept in the churche c. but the office off him whom Cyprian describeth is to keepe peace in the churche therfore Cyprian speaketh of an archbishop This argumente is caste in the same moulde that those which he hathe vntrwly compared my reason vnto before and yt hathe almost more faultes then wordes But that the simplest maye see his dealing yt is to be vnderstanded that as the pretence off institucion off the Archbishop was to keepe peace and suppresse scismes so the onely pretence off translating the name off bishop from manie in one churche vnto one onely was the same as appeareth by the place off Ierome after discussed To let passe therfore that I haue proued and will after more appeare that there was then nether Archbishop nor Metropolitane and for disputacion sake to imagin Archbishops then yet when bothe the name and office Cyprian speaketh of agree vnto him which gouerneth in euerie churche or to speake as the D. speaketh diocese and the office onely withowte the name agreethe to the Archbishop yt must needes be meeter â—o refer Cypcians wordes to the Bishop then to the Archbishop seing that there be more cordes off reasons to pull them that waies then the other At the leaste yt is cleare that the Argument off the A. is faultie seing yt was not onely the principall office off the Archbishop to prouide for peace c. but the same also was the principall office off the Bishop as that vnder pretence wherof that kinde off Bishop was instituted Where he cometh to his oulde hole that althowghe the name be not there yet the office is I refere my selfe vnto that written before in that be halfe Howbeit here yt appeareth how he spake withowt booke saying all writers before the Nicene Councell make mention bothe off their names and offices when as Cyprian one off them hathe no worde off them Where he saithe Cypr. speaketh off Cornelius who had gouernement off all the prouince that is the question which becawse he coulde not proue he taketh graunted Where he addeth Cyprian had the charge and ouersight off all churches in Aphrica and for proofe alledgeth the 4. booke 8. Epistle he is abused for Cyprian dothe saie no suche thing He speaking there off himselfe and
one Then let him answer whether thes sayinges a bishop and an other minister off the word are all one a bishop and an other minister off the word be not all one be opposed and set one against an other If he can deny none off these then it ys iustly concluded that this inuention off man which hath made a bishop to differ from another mynister off the worde is againste the truth Because I loue not that compas off wordes which the D. delighteth in I concluded shortly and yet sufficiently to the vnderstanding off any that dothe not willingly blindefolde him selfe My argument ys The best deciding off controuersies vvas in the apostels time but that vvas not by archbishops vvherfore the best deciding of cōtrouersies is not by archbishops for proofe that yt was not by archbis I set downe that there were no archebishops then Vnto this deformed face off reason as he calleth yt let vs see how formally he answereth Firste he saith we are not bounde to the forme of gouernemēt vsed by the Apostels and therin referreth him selfe to that he hath and shal saie where also let him take his answer Secondly that althowghe the Apostels had not the name off Archbishops yet they had the office which I haue shewed to be a shift of the Papistes Then yt is to be obserued how he proueth that thapostels had the office of an archbishop and in what good logicke Archbishops haue the direction off many churches the ending off controuersies c. the Apostles had the same therfore the Apostels were archbishops by this reason a man maie proue not onely diuers but contrary thinges to be all one seing contraries haue diuers thinges wherin they agree So that first this kinde off reasoning hath the fault of those ridiculous argumentes which the D. propoundeth pag. 316. secondly yt taketh for graunted which is the question For he presumeth that the Archbishops office kepeth the church in godly quietnes which is debated Thirdly to proue the Apostels autoritie in the churches which is not in question he hath made a greate muster of testimonies to proue the archbishops not a word After he cyteth Ambrose to proue that Apostles are bishops Yt is greate merueill if he kepe good order in the church for whose establishement the Answ is constreined thus to confound and make a broile off all and it is before confuted Howbeit admitting that the bishops succede vnto the Apostels in preaching the word and gouerning the church I haue shewed how that is a whip to driue the archbishop cleane owt of the church off god And this is here to be obserued that when it is saide the bishops succede vnto the Apostels c. that must be vnderstanded off the Apostles bishops and such as they instituted For what bishops haue better right to succede the Apostles then they But those were as I haue shewed bishops off singular congregations bishops which had no superiotitie ouer their fellowbishops as Ierome doth confesse In the end he saith If I can proue by good autoritie that one was gouernour amongest the 12. Apostles it shall not seme strange to haue an archbishop ouer a Prouince If vpon this that one had gouernement of 12. assembled in a particular place he can conclude that there should be one gouernour off the ministers in a Prouince I can with better reason conclude that there may be one to gouerne all the ministers in the worlde For if because one gouerned twelue therfore one may gouerne all in Prouince then becawse one may gouerne all in a Prouince I will conclude that one may gouerne all in the worlde As towching the number off those which are gouerned there is not so much difference betwene the ministers off a Prouince and the ministers off the whole church as betwene 12. and the ministers off some whole Prouince Towching the distance off place yt is as much betwene a Prouince and the wole extent off Christianitie as betwene a particular place off an acre breadeth and some Prouince Wherfore this reason is more fauorable to the Pope then to the Archbishop Peters superioritie shall be after seen where also this sentence of Ierome shall be answered Onely here let it be obserued that the Answ hath borowed this reason off Pope Anaclete which alledgeth it to proue Archbishops And it is browght also of Pighius against the protestantes which denied that there owght to be any archbishops as shall appeare herafter more at large The place off Caluin is handled afterward Bucers vpon the Ephes I haue answered That owt off his booke de Reg. Ch. the same in effect hath the same answer Howbeit it is here to be noted how the D. thorowgh greedy desire off seeming to say somwhat putteth downe with one hand that he setteth with the other For to the maintenance off the archbishop and bishop here be browght two testimonies one of Ierome thother of Bucer cleane contrary If Ierome say true that the superioritie off one Bishop ouer an other is by coustome not by institution off God then is that vntrue pretended out off Bucer that it pleased the holie goste yt should be so For if it be off the holie goste it is the institution of god The D. therfore must forgoe one off thes seing that both will neuer drawe in one forowgh The contrarietie with my self which the glosse chargeth me with is for that pag. 349. I saied owt off Eusebius that as long as thapostles liued if any vvent about to corrupt the doctrine they dit it in the darck and here owt off the Apostle I affirme there vvere heresies and schismes Wherin what contrarietie there is and what a trifler this is let the reader iudge sauing that if there were any contrarietie it is not mine with my self but Eusebius with the Apostle The Answ would gird vp his Archbishop in smaller roume that he might seme les growen owt off faschion He saith therfore the archbishop when a schisme or heresie riseth determineth yt according to the law established by the church Wherin he speaketh absurdly considering that the church can make no other rule wherby he may procede in decision off schismes and heresies then in referring him to the rule off the scripture So the summe off this answer is the Archbishop may not determin the matter at his pleasure but according to the word off god As thowgh the question were by what rule controuersies should be decided and not by whom For when the controuersie at Antioch was referred to the Apostles c. in Ierusalem it was not permitted vnto them otherwise to iudge off it then according to the word Now therfore let it be obserued how aptly the D. answereth To abat◠the swelling autoritie off the Archbishop I alledge that in deciding cōtrouersies yt is not permitted to any one to determin vvhat is the vvill off God in that behalf The D. saith the archbishop must determin by the word off God.
As thowgh if the matter had bene committed to S. Paul onely it should not haue bene with the same bond off keping him to the word yet yt was not so committed as I haue alledged And if he think more succour for him in the wordes he vsed the archbishop must determin according to the rule of the church it is certein also that the companie of Apostles and Elders in Ierusalem and what companie soeuer meeteth together abowt the ending of such matters is subiect vnto all lawful and commendable orders off the churche prouided for the more orderly proceding in that behalf So that there being nothing here alledged by the D. which agreeth not vnto the Apostles and Angels themselues the excessiue autoritie off tharchbishop doth still appeare in that he alone endeth controuersies which in the Apostolike church was not committed but vnto many For as for that in the next diuis he compoundeth not controuersies by him self alone onles he meane that he hath his seruantes the Chaunceler and Archdeacon or some other off his owne châ—â—sâ— â–ª the booke set owt by tharchbishop of late doth declare the coÌ„trary and the experience off his visitacions and deposing off ministers doth openly conuince him of vntruth If he say he is not alone he hath them following him he must vnderstaÌ„d that becawse ether the archbishop carieth their voices vnder his girdell or yf they vse the freedome which is meet yet the approbacion dependeth vpon the archbishops beck he can no more account them to be diuers then a maÌ„ and his shadow following him And where in his former booke he saith the cheif office off an archbishop is to compound contentions schismes c. here being put to his shift he changeth his speach saying it is his principall office to prouide that contentions c. be cut of Where he addeth or els with the Princes consent he setteth an order in a prouinciall Synode If there be any Synode ether to take the iudgement owt off his hand or controll the sentence gyuen by him it is like to be sore against his will. So that the remedy off this mischief dependeth onely vpon the Cyuill power which if ether yt be ennemy to religion or entangled with the present heresie as hath and may herafter come to passe the churche being withowt remedy must languish and pyne away He saith this example of the matter caried to Ierusalem proueth that euery parish within yt self hath no absolute autoritie to end controuersies but it behoueth to resort vnto the cheif church the contrary wherof appeareth For in that they both debated the cawse amongest them selues and when they coulde not agree decreed to send yt to Ierusalem yt ys sufficiently declared that they had autoritie to end it amongeste them and that yt was not wrunge from them by necessitie off law or pretence off higher autoritie but voluntarily sent vp to Ierusalem Althowgh for this place in hand yt ys sufficient that the deciding off controuersies hung not vppon the mouth off one man were he neuer so sufficient but were referred vnto thassemblies of the Auncients and ministers of the word As for his olde shiftes of the weaknes of negatiue argumentes of autoritie and of examples of the scripture and thapostolike church their folie is opened before Here he taketh on against my vnskilfulnes in the scriptures which referred that vnto ministers which is spoken off all the church Howbeit if he had coÌ„ferred the text he should haue found that thapostle speaketh of the Prophe thes and not of the whole church For he biddeth that tvvo or three of the Prophetes should speake and the other that is to say Prophetes should gyue iudgement Which appeareth by the reasoÌ„ added the sprite off the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes Therfore the D. corrupteth the place and the argument to proue that not one minster but many owght to determin of doutfull causes is vntowched Where I pressed him with this that vnitie is fully mainteined by the ministeries vvhich God hath ordeined â–ª he asketh how oft I will alledge it Yf it be a fault in me to alledge one place often vpon diuers occasions what is it in him to alledge one thing so continually vppon the same occasion If he would haue opened his eyes he should haue seen that I vsed an argument proper to this place and not vsed before For where he pretendeth the archbishop was ordeined to kepe vnitie I shew that withowt him vnitie is perfectly kept wherunto he answereth nothing but as before But I will serue his tast and giue him change For the Apostle a litle before exhorting to vnitie bringeth also this reason one body one spirit one hope one Lord one faith one baptisme one God c. Wherby appeareth that the apostle tooke thes ones to be sufficient to kepe the people off God in vnitie And if to haue an archbishop had bene so necessary the apostle shoulde haue fowly forgotten him self hauing so fit a place to speake of him And as this is aptly opposed against the pretended peace by a Pope so is yt likewise against that surmised to be browght by the archbishop Where I ask vvhat buckler vve may haue to hould ovvt against the Papistes vvhich come vpon vs vvith the name of traditions off the apostles if vve admit that there vvere archbishops ordeined by them vvherof the scripture maketh no mention he answereth there can be no daunger in them so they be not made necessarie to saluacion but such as receiue alteracion Which althowgh it be cleane contrary to that he saide before where he bindeth vs to obseruation of them as I haue shewed yet it shall be sufficient here to let him vnderstand that he hath vtterly barred him self from this answer for that he saith this ministrie of the Archbishop is necessarie yea most necessarie Now if it be most necessarie for preseruacion of vnitie off the church yt is plaine that it is necessarie also for the saluacion of yt For the next diuis I haue shewed how absurdly the D. defendeth this rouing where let the reader iudge what difference there is betwene our archbishop and Ieromes bishop which differed nothing from a commen minister but that he had the ordeining off ministers And here I call once againe vpon him to shew any godly and learned writer which expoundeth this place of Ierome off an archbishop to see if he be any happier in this place then he was before in Cyprians The Bishop off Salisb affirmeth that the very meaning off Ierome is off euery bishop in his dioces and Harding in the end beaten downe with the light off the place is compelled to confesse it The next I leaue to the reader to iudge by that alledged on both sides The D. saith I refuse Ierome in a matter off storie yet I denie no part off his storie wherin he seemeth to haue lost all commensense For who in
allegde Iacobs tvvo vviues to proue he might haue as many as he liste should ansvver that althovvgh he might haue tvvo yet yt folovveth not that he may haue as many as he liste proueth that one may ouerthrow one vnlawfull thing by an other withowt teaching ether off them lawfull which the D. calling yt a ieste answereth not And yet yt ys manifest that thes he his reasons both here and there which may in deede worthely be iested at albeit there is no worde in the example I browght that carieth the countenance off a ieste Vnto that I browght of greater necessitie off vnitie in the vvhole church then in ane Prouince there is nothing answered here he saith I am greatly deceiued considering that the Pope claimeth his temporalities by Constantine and his supremacie by Peter If he listed he might haue vnderstanded that diuers Papistes which handle that matter off supremacie alledge Constantines donacion for his temporalities onely I said not that the Pope maketh his claime onely by Constantine Althowgh yt may be shewed that Sozimus who yow say claimed the supremacie ouer all the church made his claime not by Peter nor by any autoritie off scripture but by the Councell off Nice confirmed by the Emperour Constantine Where he saith my supposition touching one Caesar ouer all the realmes which haue churches is but supposed I meruaile that he is ignorant that Constantine in the ende off his reigne had the Empire whole in his handes and that all the churches had rest vnder him that the Emperour off Rome is called lorde off all the earth Lord off all the vvorlde So that if he would haue appointed one bishop ouer all prouinces vnder him the bishop of his appointement should haue had more then double the iurisdiction that the Pope euer had when his kingdome was largeste the Pope him selfe making no further claime then ouer the churches which bare the name off Christe as Pighius him selfe confesseth Wherupon foloweth that his answer often alledged to put a difference betwene the archbishop and Pope the one taketh it to him selfe the other hath yt of the gifte of the Prince is not worthe a strawe Where I shew that the sufficientest mynister finding enovvghe to doo in one onely congregacion no man can be hable to vvelde the gouernement off all the churches in a Prouince he answereth that lacke off will or skill of some busie Pastors to dispatch controuersies which them selues be autors off letteth not but that bishops and archbish may be sufficient for their charges I make my argument off all and he answereth off some I of the moste fyt and sufficient pastors and he off vnfit If he haue any better answer wee will attend after yt if not then the archbishop is here againe taken by defaulte And when ether he must needes let his Archbishop fall to the ground or els denie that men off greatest giftes haue found enowgh to doe in the gouernement of one congregacion being both vnwilling to graunte the one and ashamed to denie the other yt is manifest he crept into this corner When I shew that as the patrons off the Archb. may alledge the supplie off Archdeacons Chauncelors c. in their absence so the popes aduocates may pretende his deputacion off Cardinalls c. he answereth that the office off bishop and Archbishop may be well excuted so farre as yt is conuenient for the estate of the church which ys that in question Where lykewise otherwhere I alledged to this pourpose that his bishop and Archbishop hauing their charge assigned by him the same vvith a commen pastor the gouernement onely excepted are therby bounde to pastorall preaching and ministring off sacramentes in all the parishes off their iurisdiction vvhich is impossible he staggereth to and fro saying the bishop hath to procure his diocese ys muche as in him lieth wheras he is charged for laying hand to more then he can gripe He addeth according to the lawes of the churche he is afraied to say off god that they preach where and when they see yt moste conuenient by that rule neuer also and no where yf in their sighte yt be conueniēt That yt foloweth not because the archbishop is bound to minister the word and Sacramentes therfore he muste doo yt in all the parishes of his prouince which followeth well For the bishop appointed by the holy ghoste is commaunded to feed the whole flocke committed vnto him euen with the same feading Saincte Paule fedd the Ephesians that is with preaching so plentifully that all might vnderstand the whole will off god Wheruppon followeth that his charge is not to feede where and when he seeth good but to feed and that to sufficiencie all the people off his charge as he that shall answer for the bloude off all which perish for wante of sufficient instructiō by his mouth And if there be as he saith the same deutie off the Archbishop towardes his charge as off the bishop towardes his the same foloweth in him for the charge off his Prouince being a lyke committed vnto him by the same reason he is bounde to preach in one parte he is bounde in all if not in all in none Now to returne where he saith preaching ordeining mynisters and suppressing herysies is not committed vnto the Archdeacon Chauncelor c. but such as by rules off the church are permitted them firste yt is his continuall faulte that he should proue by the lawe off God he proueth by the lawes of our church yea and by those which remained off the estate which was in poperie I mighte much better alledge the lawes off the reformed churches which haue abolished them And if he wil againste the reasons browghte oppose autoritie and binding me for my proofes within the compas off the worde off God vvander him selfe in the broade feilde off mens lawes in question yt is time to shuite vp the disputation which is mainteined by such grosse begginge Secondly how will he proue that he may sett ouer his charge vnto an other or that yt ys more lawfull to committ other thinges perteining vnto his office then those which he reserueth vnto him selfe Or if he may commit yt whether he may commit yt to tharchdeacon so farre vnder degree of the mynisterie off the Archbishop to whome those thinges belong or to Chauncelors c. which haue no entrance into the ministerie by any ecclesiasticall institution all which are shewed vnlawful in the booke of discipline lately set forth And why may not the Pope cōmmunicate his charge with his Cardinales as well as the archbishop with his Suffraganes c If he can shew no word why he may doo it but it be onely vpon constitution off the church that he casteth the ouerplus off his bourdē vpō the neck of his Chancelour c by the same reason the vniuersall bishop may discharge him self vpon his deputies Where he saith the vniuersall bishop can not ordeine
Cyprian which by one priest in the churche vnderstandeth one onely bishop in a church for therby it foloweth that ether there was but onely one priest in the church of Carthage or els thes wordes bishop and prieste were all one so that whosoeuer was one was the other The nexte diuision hath not a worde to purpose for autorities are quoted to proue that the Apostels apointed Bishops in diuers churches which no man denieth yea I haue namely alledged yt before Where I shew that forsomuche as the Archdeacon is reproued of Ierome for preferring him sefe before an elder because the scripture maketh him inferior vnto the elder by the same reason a bishop is to be reproued for that he preferreth himself before an elder which the scripture maketh his equall he answereth he seeth no sequell nor likelihoode notwithstanding I truste there is none that hathe but his commen sense which dooth not easely vnderstande that yt is no more lawfull for those which are ordeined equalls by the scripture to lifte them selues one aboue an other then yt is lawfull for him that is apointed to be vnder to exalte him selfe aboue his superior for althowghe he be in greater faulte which being vnder exalteth him selfe aboue then he which magnifieth him selfe aboue his equall yet as the ordinance off God cawseth the one to be vnlawfull so yt doothe the other The seconde answer is there maie be degrees amongeste the ministers notwithstanding all this for that Ierome saithe there was a degree This is a verie blunt answer I alledge bothe autoritie off the scripture and Ieromes owne reason againste the distinction off one bishop from the reste and he answereth that the distinction is good for Ierome so saith Thirdly althowgh Ierome confesse that a bishop and an elder be all one by the scripture yet he confesseth superioritie off a bishop before an other elder but he saith they are all one by the scripture and that the bishop is superior by coustome And here he stitchethe in a parenthesis For after he had alledged Ierome confessing that a bishop and an elder are all one by scripture he addeth as they be in deede towching the ministerie Therby desirous as yt seemeth to abuse his symple reader in making him belieue that Ierome mente that there was by the scripture difference in policie betweene a bishop and an other mynister which ouerthroweth the whole intente of Ierome For he sheweth that this difference which the D. in other places termeth for order and Policie betwene a bishop ād an other minister was not by the scripture but by coustome and beganne at Alexandria And seing Ierome putteth a difference betwene the bishop specified in S. Paul and the bishop in his time yf the Answ say that S. Paules bishop differed frō an other minister as towching order and policie I would gladly knowe of him how Ieromes bishop and he which is now differeth from an other minister Yf he answer as he hath doone before that they differ not as towching the ministery but as towching order and policie thē he putteth no differēce betwene S. Paules bishop and Ieromes which is ouerthrow of all that Ierome saith and he hath flatly affirmed where he maketh Ieromes bishop instituted by the churche after the Apostels times After he blusheth not to saie that Ierome makethe a difference betwene S. Paules bishop and another minister For althowghe he broilethe and mingleth all vpon a heape thincking throwgh confusion off all to cawse his treachery not to be seen yet after he doth plainly vtter yt in answering Chrysostomes wordes the same with Ieromes But before I come to his reasons wherby he would proue this I will set downe the wordes off Ierome wherby his vnhoneste dealing maie be better perceiued First he saith a ministre that is to say a bishop and a litle after the Apostle dothe plainly teache that a bishop and a minister are all one And in an other place a Bishop and a minister are the same againe althovvghe vvith the auncient fathers bishops and elders vvere all one Here appeareth manifestly that Ierome saith a bishop and an other minister be all one with the Apostell and with the auncient times that he expoundethe one by the other that he turneth one off them vpon an other for as he saith that bishops be ministers so he affirmeth that mynisters be bishops Nowe of the twoo reasons to proue that Ierome put a difference betweene a bishop and an elder this is the firste the one is a name of age and the other of dignitie which is asmuch to saie as they differ in deede because they differ in name and that the auncientes and elders off the people off Israell were not their gouernours because the name aff auncientes is a name off age and the other of honor or as if the eldest brother were not the heir because the one is a name of age the other of honor Wheras Ieromes purpose is plainly to shew that althowgh the names be diuers yet the thinges are all one And yf there be anie dignitie shut vp in this name bishop the ministers are partakers of it considering that he affirmeth that they be bishops And if there be any inferioritie noted by the name off elder the bishop hathe his parte in yt for so muche as he is an elder Althowghe the trwthe is that by the worde dignitie Ierome mente nothing but an office and called the name off bishop the name off a dignitie becawse the office drawethe dignitie with yt And because of reuerence which the yonger giue to thelder as also for that ministers and bishops were often taken from them whiche were well growne in age they were called elders So that althowgh the name elder be the name off age yet yt draweth as muche honor after yt as the name off bishop His other reason is Ierome saithe an elder is conteined in a bishop which he bringeth as a proofe to shew that Deacons are therfore vnder elders because elders and bishops be all one with S. Paul. So that he hath not onely depraued Ieromes minde but drawne his wordes to a cleane contrarie sense of that he ment for euen by the same wordes wherby Ierome woulde proue they be all one he would proue them diuers And althowghe Ieromes maner of speache here be somewhat harde for that purpose considering that thinges which are all one can not properly be saide to conteine one another yet bothe by his plaine wordes in other places and manifest suite off his disputation he made his meaning so well knowne that no man onles willing coulde stumble at his phrase And if the D. will thus hunt at syllables yet this speache off Ieromes is so farre from helpinge him that yt dooth vtterly ouerthrow all his houlde he snatcheth at For where he vpon thes wordes in a bishop is conteined an elder would conclude that euery bishop is a minister but not euery minister a
this testimonie of Epiphanius And further saith of Wickleue that therfore he tooke away the difference betwene bishop and elder because he could not obteine the bishoprick of Worcester and in an other booke inueigheth sharplie against them for that they would haue neither Pope nor primate nor Archbishop nor Bishop And that yt may yet appeare euen to the simple reader that they had the same cause against Pigghius and the Papistes which we against the D. I offer to his consideration besides the two flat testimonies of M Barnes aÌ„d Hooper before cyted M. Wickleues tenthe article in thes wordes Ther be 12 disciples of Antichrist Popes Cardinalles Patriarckes Archbishopes Bishops Archedeacons Officials Deanes Monkes Chanons Fryers and Pardoners If the D. say that Wickleue spake that not off the offices but off their abuse in popery that shift will not serue coÌ„sidering that he leaueth owt priestes and Deacons Wherof the priest especially doing more mischeife then diuerse which are reckened yet because he occupied the place off the pastor in euery congregacion which was the ordinance off God and was onely a deprauacion and deformitie off the trew ministerie he spareth him the other because they were deuised partlie herbingers to prepare his way partly purucâ—ers to interteine his estate he marked with the black cole off Antichristianitie Yf yt be further said that Wickleue should by this meanes condemne the estate off a bishop vvhich S. Paule alloweth off yt is manifest that he bet against the lord bishop which ruleth ouer other ministers in adiocese coÌ„sidering that he leaueth the priest the deformitie of the teaching minister which minister is all one as hath bene shewed with S. Paules Bishop Beside this reason they may as well saye he spake not against the office off Pope Chanons Monkes Friars Pardoners but onely against the abuse which is absurde This to the learned may better appeare by Pigghius discourse which confesseth that the Waldenses and Wickleue left the ordeâ— off priesthode as they call yt and that the whole question betwene them was not whether lord bishops and Archbishops did their dutie but whether they were lawfull estates Wherby appearethe that whosoeuer was the D. marchant these wares come from one off the filthiest puddels off popery and withall that as sone almost as there was any set and apparant estate of the churche which proclaimed open warre against Antichrist the letters off defiaunce were as well sent against the Archbishop and longehanded bishop as against the Pope Luther also after them writethe thus Bishops vvhersoeuer they be in all the vvorlde are equall to our bishops or parishe ministers and preachers of none caÌ„ yt be said one is lord an other a seruant they are off the same iudgement and vvhatsoeuer belongethe to the churche equally belongeth to all except that vvhich Paule teacheth some preacher or Christian may be off a sounder faith then other haue greater giftes then another interprete the scripture better then an other rule better then an other preache better and haue the discretion off spirites more then an other c. hovvbeit suche giftes cause no inequalitie or lordship in the church Here I will also set downe the iudgement off the reformed churches in Heluetia Zurich Berne Geneua Polonia Hungery Scotland c. who hauing reckened the ministries specified in scriptures add in the times follovving ther vvere many other titles off ministers brovvght into the churche For some vvere ordeined Patriarckes some Archbishops other Suffraganes also metropolitanes Archelders c. but for all those vve passe not ether vvhat they vvere in times past or are novv the Apostels doctrine of the ministers is sufficient for vs. Yf all these churches make no accounte off these offices not onely as they are now but when they were at the best if they esteme them withowt the doctrine of the Apostles I leaue to the readers iudgement what estimacion they had off them and how the D. woulde abuse vs that drawethe the sentences of the cheif in this coÌ„fession to proue their conuenieÌ„ce Neither do I dowbt but that our Archebishops and Bishops refusing to ioyne with the rest off the churches in this confession did it because they could not digest this morsell especiall Now to come to the D. that saith Epiphanius calleth vs heretickes which pinchethe vs. master Wickleue and the pore Waldenses bare yt at Pigghius hand we must do yt at the D. in dede so muche more pinching as yt commethe from him from whom yt least owght But what remedy the Lord will looke to it in time Howbeit because this arrow is as yt is said of Epiphanius a man subiecte to error shot owt off Pigghius bow one giuen vpp to error hauing no heade off the worde of God to make yt enter yt may peraduenture raise the skin but wounde yt can not make But Augustine reckenethe yt so but Augustine reporteth what he found written for towching his owne iudgement he is flat against Epiphanius which maketh a bishop aÌ„d an elder differ by the Apostels institution wheras Augustin as I haue shewed teacheth euen as Ierome that this difference was not by the word of God but by custome now I would know of the D. how Augustin can houlde that for an heresie which to leaue the rest can not be conuinced by the word off God but onely by a custome off the churche And here first he must either let goe his hould of Ierome or this of Epiphanius For if yt be trw that Epiphanius houldeth that a bishop and an elder differ by the Apostels institution then it is false which Ierome and others hould that they were all one at the first and that the difference came by custome Contrariwise if Ierome in that point say true as in dede he dothe then Epiphanius authoritie falleth Secondly yf the D. will preiudice this cause for that Epiphanius a Catholike thowght them to differ by the word off God where Aerius an heretike thowght them all one or els in that Augustin reckeneth that amongest his heresies by the same reason he must preiudice this trwthe that we owght not to praie or make any oblation for the dead For both Epiphan estemed him an heretike for his iudgement in that behalfe and Augustin reporteth this as one off his heresies which is catholike doctrine So that Pigghius might vse this autoritie better which condemnethe as well the one as the other then the D. which houldethe as I thincke for Catholike that which Aerius the hereticke affirmed and for hereticall which Epiphanius the Catholike condemned The flower off Epiphanius reasons browght before is answered now the D. distressed bringeth forth tag aÌ„d rag for towching Epiphanius saying the bishop by imposition off handes begetteth fathers 1. teachers to the churche vvhere the priestes begate onely sonnes yt is but asking off that in question when Aerius holding them both one by Gods institution the imposition off handes belonging vnto the bishop muste
nedes be affirmed to apperteine vnto the elder neither doth Epiphanius answer the reason owt off S Paule that Timothe was ordeined by imposition off handes off the companie off elders Likewise that browght off a bishop aboue an elder because S. Paule vvilleth Timothe not to rebuke an elder to let goo other faultes as many as are wordes in the sentence yt is absurde that he referreth that vnto an elder by office which is spoken of an elder by yeares and referreth that to the publicke minister which is vnderstanded onely off a priuate membre off the churche as appeareth manifestly by the opposition off a yong man and after off the elder woman So I leaue to be estemed what good cause the D. hath to couer his face in that wheroff he so greatly vaunteth The next diuision is answered In the next I leaue it to the reader whether the D. order hath the heeles vpward which after endeuoure to shew the necessitie the causes yea the examples off a thinge setteth him selfe to proue that it was Althowgh if this be his trim order he hath kept it euill for Chrysostome browght for confirmacion off the first comethe after Ierome which is browght to beare vp his seconde That Ignatius bishop was but off one particular congregation onely I haue shewed and therfore the wordes ouer all pressed off the D. as they are off Pigghius from whence this was taken are vnderstanded of those within his particular churche Besides the kinde of speach may be easelier drawen vnto the whole worlde then off a diocese or prouince for the reason assigned in my former booke That the bishop owght to be aboue the elders which onelie gouerned and deacons is confessed yf he were aboue the teaching elders that was by custome whether good or bad let it be iudged off that said Howbeit that that be graunted yt maketh nothing to proue a bishop ouer a diocese muche lesse an Archbishop When the bishop in euerie church or to speake as the D. in euerie diocese was the Cheife aboue whom there coulde not by this Ignatius be any higher bishop in earthe I leaue yt to the readers iudgement how absurde the D. is who saith that Ignatius dothe not ouerthrow his Archishop for therby he affirmeth that albeit the bishop off the Diocese were the highest bishop that coulde be vpon earthe yet there might be an other higher then he Also how fonde he is in his reason that for as muche as an archbishop is a bishop therfore Ignatius allowing one allowethe the other When yt is manifest by his owne confession that Ignatius speaketh off one onely sort off bishops either of one particular church as the trwthe is or off one diocese as he imagineth So that his argument is Ignatius allowethe one sort off bishops therfore the Archbishop all one as if a man should say he hath a kinde off fishe in his moate therfore a whale fishe The D. detected in that Iustins president was neither bishop off diocese nor Archbishop off Prouince but of one congregation for excuse saith he browght the place to proue there might be superioritie ouer the ministers Where first his trim order that all my logicke and Rhetoricke is not able to moue is too pitifull for how childishe is yt after so long trauaile to proue a bishop ouer the ministers off a diocese and tharchbishop of a Prouince in the ende to endeuour to proue that ther may be superioritie as if any man would denie this that graunted the other and yt is to set the fondacion vpon the louer yet I would know off him what meanethe the word this wherby appeareth not onelie that he browght yt to proue superioritie but the superioritie either off a bishop ouer a whole diocese or an Archbishop ouer a Prouince considering that this is the superiority which he speake of before and im̄ediatelie after Secondly where I bothe by the vse of the scriptures and auncient writers shewed the word Brethren not taken for the gouernours but the people obserue how vainly he answerth that Iustine meant the ministers and deacons by brethren because he calleth the people after by the name off people As if the rest off the church were not called both in scripture ād other writers by diuerse names Thirdly how if it be graunted that Iustins presidēt had superioritie ouer the minister yet how fondly yt is concluded that yt is lawfull because yt was Then how his weapons fetched from Maister Beza haue alwaies their edge towarde him and his cause For he alledgeth him to proue that Iustins president did gouerne the reste and had the name off bishop which in the same place flatly condemneth that pollicie as is declared Lastly how by this answer he maketh euerie pastor off a congregacion to handle the gouernemen which before he tooke from him when he shutteth him vp in the administracion of the word and samentes only Iustines writinges compared as I compared them with the holie scripture are as I said a ditche I added the reason that ther was in them not a litle mudd off errors which the D. could not answer otherwise I acknowledge him both godlie and learned Maister Beza sought not the word president in Iustine but sheweth how Timothe did the office at Ephesus which Iustines president did which was meete considering he had a higher ministerie then any there So that althowgh Timothe aboue the degree off a bishop kept that presidentship continually during his abode yet there was no reason that one Pastor off the same degree with other should take that vpon him Yf he were the true Ignatius he should in dede be before Iustin but to let passe other exceptions withe M. Caluins sharpe censure off him yt is absurde to ascribe to Ignatius S Iohns scholer that vaine boaste off being able to expound the orders off Angells their varieties the distinctions and differēces betwene vertues powers Thrones c. That priest is no fit name for a minister off the gospell is towched after that the names proper to our S. Christ can be cōmunicated with man is absurd and before confuted where also the name off Prince a peace off Prince off Priestes is shewed vnfit fer the ministery That there may be one Archbishop ouer bishops as there is one bishop ouer pastors hathe no parte trw as hathe bene shewed onely let yt be noted that the reason here for the Archbishop is Hardinges for the Pope This argument browght before and after to proue our Archbishops iurisdiction that one had care of the whole Prouince here is pursued wherunto I answer here that care dothe not necessarily draw iurisdiction or rule ouer that cared for seing that there is no minister I might haue said also no magistrate yea no priuate membre which owght not to haue and shew forthe a care off all the churches which are in Christendome euery one according to the meanes which
word and to hould cōmon consultation that therfore he estemed the whole dioces off London or Prouince off Canterbury where there are many thowsand parishes might conueniently grow into one particular bodie to be gouerned off one Pastor Truly this is but kolde reasoning Where I charged him with vnfaithefull dealing for leauing ovvt that vvvich Caluin noteth that the office off Archbis and Patriarck vvas rarely vsed to couer his vnfaithfullnes he alledgeth the later edition which hathe not that sentence Which is partly answered before but ad this also that euen the noted booke which he followed had thus muche off that sentence Althovvghe it may not be passed by in this disputation There wanted onely this it vvas very rarely vsed and that throwghe the printers fault considering that withowt yt there is no sence nor knot with that before or after Therfore if there had bene any loue of the trwthe in hym meeting with suche a gap he would haue sowght to haue made yt vpp in the later edition His shift Calu referrethe that to the patriarcke and not to the Archbishop because ther was smale cause off exercising his authoritie is onely said and in deede cōtrary to thanthors wordes ād meaning Wordes for that giuing that note off his disputation there which is bothe off the Archbishop and Patriarke yt muste follow by all likelihoode that the note also is of them bothe Against his meaning manifestly for he placing both their offices in propounding matters vnto the Synodes which for their hardnes could not be ended of few and gyuing them nothing to doo more then their fellowes but that it muste follow that the oftenest Synodes wherin the archbishop was president being rare and but twise a yeare his office also was off very rare vse Wherby appeareth that Caluins minde was to shew that the archbishops and Patriarches office endured onely but the time off the Synode which ended he had no autoritie but in commen with other bishops vntill the next synode So that althowgh they were not chosen at euery action yet Caluins iudgement standeth that both those offices were but off rare vse The D. onely trifleth in Hemingius For we affirme degrees off ministrie off the word graunt also that there were Patriarches but denie them to haue bene immediatly after the Apostles which Hemingius doth not as he vntruly saith affirme That that church abolishing the Patriarch and Archbishop kept the distinction betwene the bishop an other ministers off the word which the church browght in is confessed but that it owght not so to be is before declared althowgh the bishops there in respect off the height off ours are but dwarfes His answer to that Hemingius saith that S. Luke 22. putteth a difference betvvene the office off a Magistrat and ministers and that dominion is altogether takē avvay from these is very fonde His reason owt off the Hebr. is before answered so that his vnfaithfull dealing in Hemingius remaineth Yf there be no circunstance in M Fox alledged by the D. which gyue further answer I stand to that before made and refer it to the readers iudgement especially seing to that alledged where M. Fox flatly condemneth the degrees off primates metropolitanes and archbishops as ambicious the D. can not answer In saying he vvent about to corrupt him vvith his praise I doo M. Fox no iniurie yt being no fault to be assaulted but to be ouercome Whether I doo the D. any let the reader iudge The maintenance of the reply to the Bishop off Salisb answer towching certein Articles against the D. Chap. 4. Diuis 1. pag. 422. THat the Bishop is directly against the D. in affirming that there be no Apostles Euangelistes or Prophetes ys manifest his shift wherewith he would accord him self with the bishop is is before bewraied That the taking away off the Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes hindreth not the perfect nomber off preaching ministers hath bene declared beside that yt is grosse to say that the diuision is not perfect because certein partes of it are not now extant as if the law of deuiding extended not it self to thinges both past and to come He that parteth the church into that before and vnder the Gospell doth he therfore make an euill particion because there is now no church before the Gospell that is vnder or before the law Here the D. leaueth the bishop to his owne defense towching that he affirmed a bishop not conteined in the place to the Ephes The diuision there being giuen as hath beue saied off those ministers onely vvhich vvith gouernement handle the vvord both here and in the fift diuision the D. doth but trifle in the examples off the elder and deacon seing we hould and will God willing shewe them not to haue to doo with the word Wher hereuppon he woulde bring in his archbishop and archdeacon yt is but repetition off that before where he hath āswer Yf there be a preaching elder not cōteined vnder a Pastor seing he maketh a Pastor and Doctor all one onles he fly to his phansie off Apostles c. there is by his saying a preaching ministerie not tawght in the scripture If there be let him shew it Where I gaue the Catechising vnto the Pastor I will haue it ment where there is no Doctor otherwise I haue in the second edition amended that assigning yt as more proper to the D. So that the Doctor being instituted to the Ephes he whom they called Catechist which tawght the groundes off religion ys likewise albeit S. Pa. calleth al māner of preaching Cathechising That publike reading in the church is as solēne a matter as Catechising the youth is a peece off the former phrensie reading is as good as preaching already confuted That a reader hath bene counted necessarie is saied withowt proof and if it were it was falsly counted there being no necessarie ministrie not specified in the scripture And when they were first notwithstanding them the church ministrie was as hath bene shewed deuided into bishops elders and deacons so that they came not then so much as into account of the ministries Yf they be conuenient at any time that there is scripture to warrant them euen as the Sexten that kept the church dore key hath bene shewed That the archbishops archdeacons and our bishops haue no succour by this being supposed the principalest ministeries and therfore such as owght to haue bene commaunded hath bene likewise disputed where thes colewortes are answered That the Deaconship as I take yt is no gouernement but a simple seruice is idly alledged cōtrary to nothing here set downe Yt may seeme against that alledged before where I comprehend it under the ministers which gouerne onely which I did not to set it in the same kinde off gouernement with the elders but for that yt ordering the church money and ouerseing the poore might in a generall signification be so called If the D. can
shew one lettre that I euer wrote or spake that the place to the Ephes conteineth all thinges necessarie for the church then this that he writeth may haue place If not then he is vnworthy to receiue answer seing he hath bene gyuen to vnderstand how far we extend that place Therefore whether there were Publike churches Pulpits Schooles vniuersities in Christian congregations perteineth not to the question althowgh it hath partly and might further be shewed onely I gyue the reader warning that Iudg. â— off those saied to handle the pen whilest I gaue to much credit to translations was not so fitly alledged to proue vniuersities The three next diuis are idle repetitions before answered Where I shewed that one high priest vvas ordeined ouer the Ievves onely that he might represent our S. Christ cheif off the vvhole church the D. answereth he was also for policie and gouernement His reason our Sauiour Christ came not to take away ecclesiasticall policie â—s vaine as thowgh there could be no ecclesiasticall policie onles one minister were ruler ouer a whole nation After he citeth Caluin in the same faithe he is wont For his wordes no reason compelleth to extend that to the vvhole vvorld profitable in one nation are onely vnderstanded off that gouernement in Iury before our Sau. Christes coming which ys manifest in that he saith that example ovvght not to be follovved considering it vvas doon in respect that the high priest vvas a figure off our Sauiour Christ and the priesthood being translated that right is likevvise And after that example off the priestes gouernement ouer the whole nation vvas but for a time That the pressing off the example off the high priest amongest the Ievves dravveth a Pope I leaue to be considered off that before written especially seing the high priest was not onely gouernour off the Iewes when they were paâ—ed in the land off Canaan but euen then also when as it is knowen they were scattered thorowgh owt all natioÌ„s in the world For as S. Luke saith it to haue bene immediatly after the ascension off our Sau. Christ so was it many yeares before his coming into the world So that he which will frame an Archbishop by that example establisheth the Ecclesiasticall charge off one ouer those which were scattered thorowghowt all the corners off the earth It would be also obserued how here the D plaieth on both handes For when we reason sometime onely off the proportion off the law to the gospell other sometime off the perpetuall law off God we receiue answer that we are Iewish ennemies to the libertie of the church But where there is any thing vnder the law coming within a furlong off his cawse he gripeth it for gospellike and which owght to be folowed I see that M. Nowel thincketh a Metro poltane may be ouer a Christian prouince as the high priest was ouer the Iwes wherin I can be but sory that all the Godly learned are not off one mind As for Hyperius he seemeth to reason vpon a supposition that yf the example off the gouernement off the high priest vnder the law should be folowed which he before denied that then a man might conclude an Archbishop ouer a Prouince but not a Pope ouer the whole churche This to be his meaning I thinck the D. him selfe will accord me els let him tel me what to answer to him that saith that yt is not red in the scripture that euer any off the Apostels toke vnto him self autority or primacy ouer thother Apostels but that a most perfect equality is shewed to haue bene in all that Christ did prescribe them equall offices in all thinges that that maÌ„ner of dominion which was not in thappostles time owght not to haue bene admitted in the ages which followed Likewise what he will answer to him which condemneth as new found orders Archdeacons Archelders and vicares Wherof the 2. first haue as I haueshewed better testimonie of their auncientie then the Archbishop and are yf not off the same birth yet off the same kinde that he Where I shew the titles of cheif off the Synagoge of the SaÌ„ctuarie of the hovvs of god to make directly against him coÌ„sidering that particular churches are novv in steed off theÌ„ and therfore there ovvght to be such not in euery Prouince or dioces but in euery particular coÌ„gregation the D. as amazed speaketh he can not tell what First that the Iewes had particular Synagoges as we particular congregations and that I haue confessed that before As if I had any where denied it or had not euen here in effect affirmed it or it helped him for answer which is the ruine off his cause For their Synagoges being the same that our particular churches in euery one off them being not one but many princes the vrging off that example bringeth diuers cheif gouernours or archbishops in euery particular church Then he saith one Christian commen wealth is but one church which is vntrue For first althowgh the church be in a Christian commen wealth yet nether is the commen wealth the church nor the church the commen weaith as shall appeare Besides I haue shewed that the scripture off whose manner off speach the question is vseth not to call a Prouince or dioces a church but ether the whole vniuersall or els a particular congregation Thirdly if it were so yet the answer is insufficient For if the name off the howse off God were coÌ„men as well to a church in a Prouince as in a particular coÌ„gregatioÌ„ yet what right hath he to pull the ecclesiasticall priesthood more to his prouinciall then to our particular church He saith the superioritie amongest the priestes and Leuites is by the ciuill law of Moses Which declareth him rauished off all iudgement it being manifest that they were ether Ceremoniall or Ecclesiasticall lawes wherwith the Lord disposed of the degrees of the ministerie wherof the Ceremoniall being abolished and therfore the chieftie off one priest ouer all we willingly reteine the ecclesiasticall Where to that alledged off Princes off the families off Leuites I replied that the Lord vvoulde by those titles as by liuely pictures imprint in the Ivves vnderstanding the chieftie off our S. Christ he answereth that maketh nothing against their offices Yes for that those that would conclude therof one chief now amongest the ministers in a Prouince are therby put to silence Where he addeth so the estate off a Prince ouer a land should be abolished be is friuolous considering that that gouernement hath other staies off the ordinance off god Where that chieftie amongest the ministers hath nothing but that it was ceremoniall And if my answer like him not he shall haue the bishops as litle for his aduantage which saith The Prince of the families doth not signifie any gouernour or one endued vvith povver but onely the firste and best man off the companie He complaineth that the Bishop speaking off
Athanasius when he was but deacon or elder at the most writeth To Athanasius Lord and beloued sonÌ„e So that if Dominus must needes be a Lord then my Lord bishop muste by the same reason that he would be called Lord call the elders or Deacons Lordes likewise So there shall be Lord Bishop Lord Elder Lord Deacon vvhich as it is ridiculous so it tuneth not with the bishops note off honour which the D. fighteth for And this is also answer to my Lord Paulinus beside that Lord is not referred vnto the pronoune yovvres as if the councell had said Athanasius was the elders Lord. And if it were yet if he vvill therupon conclude any superioritie of him aboue thelders off his church he must by the same reason say that one simple bishop had superioritie ouer an other seing Eusebius bishop calleth Paulinus his fellow bishop his Lord which is absurd and condemned off him self Now I haue shewed him how bishopes were called most honorable Lordes he hath gotten two or three places where are found titles to the same effect which is idle seing that was confessed To my answer that Lorde vvith them vvas no other title then might be gyuen to a man off meane degree he saith most honorable Lord was onely gyuen to those in great autoritie which is onely said and may easely be confuted in that Alexander bishop off Alexandria the Metropolitane citie vvriting to all the church ministers not bishops onely called them most honorable fellovv ministers That he saith it was not grudged at then that bishops were called by the same titles that Princes ys very plaine language and needeth no commentarie to shew the meaning sauing that he durst not vtter all For if he would haue applied his place he shoulde haue saide yt was not grudged at then that bishops vvere called by more loftie titles then th Emperours seing the title he presseth for the bishops is most precious Lordes and the Emperour as he saith vvas onely called Lord. That the house off salutations was within the boundes off the churche appeareth not in Theodoret. His reason because the houses perteining to the bishoprick were nere the churche is weake For althowgh all howses perteining to the bishoprik were neere yet there might be some neere not perteining therto Hâ—â—beit if it were belonging to the church in that vvord there is no such note off excellency wherby yt deserueth to be the porters lodge of our bishops palaces To that off the bishops bestovving the church goods vpon loitering seruing men vvhich shoulde be bestovved vpon the vniuersities and poore bothe ministers and other he saith and onely saith that their number off seruing men tendeth to the defense off the realme honour off the prince and their owne good education off the princes honour yt is answered strenght to the realme they can not be seing the men should be althowghe they were not nourished by the bishop especially seing the bishops howse is an vnfit schole to traine vp to vvarfare And if the former necessities were helped aÌ„d yt thowght meet that the church goods should serue the realm that vvay all see that yt would rise to more profit if some were nourished off them in profession off a Souldiour then that in waiting vpon the white Rochet they should rather become vvhite liuered then fashioned for that seruice Beside that the bishops countenaÌ„ce being so profitable as yt is made and placed a greate parte in this suite off men it is manifest that his pompe houlding diuers at home which otherwise might be in the field weakeneth rather then strenghneth the realme For the education they get vnder them the corrupte religion of some the wante of Catechising others ignorant in the principles of religion the leudnes of diuers the idlenes off the most parte which is in the eies of all giue to plentifull a confutation off that parte wherin let the reader obserue how vnmeet they be to gouern dioceses and Prouinces which haue their proper houses so euil ordered especially seing the Apostel vvill not truste him vvith one parishe vvhich ruleth not his owne howse vvel And the trwth ys that the church mynistery is of that trauaill and care that yt vvill not suffer the bishops gyftes be they neuer so greate to be spente in the houshoulding and masterlike charge off suche a nomber vvhich vvas no doubt one cause why bothe the scripture and the olde Canons shut owt the bishops from this pompe Where he saith the vniuersities ministers and poore may otherwise be prouided for when that ys browght to pas and in suche sorte as a sufficient nomber â—f learned men may be nourced vp to fournish bothe the churche off ther ministers and coÌ„men wealth off her magistrates the ouerplus may as M. Hoopers counsail is goo to maintenance off Souldiours or other necessary vses aduised off by the common vvealthe That the canons browght against the bishops pomp reache to vniuersitie colledges forasmuch as there were none such then as we haue now ys vntrwe considering that with other vniuersities euery bishops howse vvas as hathe bene shewed a colledge off Students in diuinitie and yt ys otherwise vnsufficient For I reason not againste their pompe because yt was not vsed in times paste but because yt was forbidden And if he can shew the reuenews off Colledges forbidden by the Godly councels then yt had heue somewhat he saith Ad also that if the pompe and ryot off Colledges werelike the bishops yt were likewise worthie to be spoken against Ierome cited against the pompe of bishops receiueth answer that he spake agaynste the abuse and not thuse Ieromes wordes be these let the readeriudge off his meanig yt is a foule shame that before the gates off pore and crucified Christe VVho also eate of other mens meate the Consuls Sergeantes and Gard shoulde vvaite and that the ruler off the Prouince shoulde dine better at thy hovvse then in the palace But if thovv pretend to do these thinges to th ende to beg for the poore the Secular iudge vvill giue more to a churche man vvhich kepethe measure and is frugall then to one vvhich is riche and reuerence more thy holines then thy riches Or if the ruler be suche that he vvill not hearken to the churchmen ctauing for the poores reliefe but vvhen he is amongest the cupps I vvill gladly vvant suche a benefit and beg off Christ in stede off the iudge vvho is better and soner able to helpe then the iudge I omit that he inueighethe against a church maÌ„ which poore before becometh riche by the church aÌ„d liuing very homely before after vsethe delicate fare with other thinges to that ende Whether this were one cause off the bishops stately pompe that certeine noble and riche men receâ—â—ed to the mynistery and liuing somvvhat like their former estates others assaied to be like vnto them whether an other cause were for that it being amongest the heathen priests
is vnmeet to … own mynisters their Care chism ccclxiiij Hether belongeth the treatise off reaâ—ing the holy scriptures where fyrst ys shewed the vse of reading them in the church ccclxxv That reading off them is not able ordinarily to hould the people from pining ccclxiij Nether can reading of praiers or admynistration off the Sacramentes withowt preaching ccclxiiij That simple readers ordeined for pastors can not properly be called watchmen ccclxxvj That reading ys not preaching ccclxxxvij Against the phrenefie that bare reading ys better then preaching clxxxv That bare reading ys not so good as preaching ccclxxiiij not to the learned them selues ccclxxxiiij much les reading of the homilies cccxciij Which are not meet to be red in the churche openly cccxcij As are not also the Apoctypha ccxcviij especially considering their corruptions page cccc Hether perteineth the iudgement off the churches off vnlearned ministers ccclxiiij The causes off the vnlearned mynistery with vs ccclxiij ccclxv ccclxxj Ordination ORdination doth not belong to the bishop alone cclxxiiij Against the Bishop commaunding to receiue the holie goste in ordeining ccxcij Residence IN the residence off the ministers that off the Pastor is particularly handled 4. Tract page cccxxx Where our reasons are mainteined That it is the institution off God in the ould Test cccxlij In the nue cccxliiij That the calling of the church which ys also the lordes ys to that place onely cccxxxij That he owght to be resideÌ„t that therby greater loue might be wrought cccxiv That hauing better knowledg off the estate off his flock he may better doe all dueties towardes them cccxxxix That with seing the blessing off God he might be stirred to further diligence cccxlv That his flock hauing more famyliaryty might haue easier acces ibid. That he might be 〈◊〉 â—â—mple of life cccxliij Proued also by … oÌ„tinual duty off preaching Whether perteineth that treatise wherein ys shewed that yt ys conuenient yt should alwaies god before the administring of the holie Sacramentes cccxlviij Hether may be referred the comparison of the diligence of the elder Bishops in preaching dcxlvij Whether also refer the vnlawfull power of the bishop towching licences to preach wherby yt is in his will whether he will gyue the pastor leaue to preach or no coÌ„sidering that it is a necessarie dutie of the pastor and the principall cause off his residence cccxlj That he must admonish both the wicked and the godly strengthen both the weak and the strong cccxlj Comfort in temptation cccxlvij Therfore that the bare reading off the scripture is no sufficient supplie in his absence cccxliij Nether his care cccxxxij That the conscience off the pastor and contentement of the people ys no good rule off doing these duties cccxxx Nether belongeth that the pastor owght not to goe here and there to preache where he thincketh good Where ys shewed that God doeth not alwaies call to places where one may doe most good no not in the extraordinary callings muche les in the ordinary cccxxxvj That this going about to preache as yt ys assigned of the Answerer taketh away the difference betwene the pastors calling and the extraordinary functions cccxxxij That those extraordinary callinges doe not make against the pastors residence as yt is assigned off vs cccxxxj cccxxxix That they rather make for yt cccxxxij cccxxxiij cccxxxv That ordinarie deputies are ouerthrown by this residence cccliiij whether may be referred that dlxxxvj of deputies Likewise pluralities of benefices ccclvj Hether refer that absence for some causes and some conditions doe not ouerthrow resideÌ„ce cccliij This ys also proued by comparison of shepardes and watchmen cccxxxvj Where ys shewed how shamefully the answerer abuseth the doctrine off Gods holy election and of final perseuerance of those whiche are once called cccxxxviij Also that by his answer the pastor after he hath admonished them need neuer come to them nor yet leaue any deputie cccxli Likewise off the eie and soule cccxlvij 〈◊〉 yt as ys precious a worke to kepe those gotten as to get otheâ—â—â—ich be in ignorance and more agreable vnto the pastors of … e. The autoritie off Councels and fathers cccxxxiiij cccliiij Ecclesiasticall correction A part off that Ecclesiasticall discipline which standeth in corrections is commaunded is Math. 66. To note onely the errors corruptioÌ„s and shameful falsifyinges of the D. in suche sort as he hath pretended in my book were to make a new book But because there is much void paper I wil gyue the reader an assay onely of those conteined in the treatises which I haÌ„dle in this book And those shal be not off the capital matters betwene vs but off such as are browght to vnderset them quoted according to his own book whereby yt shal appeare that for the defence off this cause he troubleth heauen yt self and in earth ouerthroweth both estates Ciuil and Ecclesiasticall THe vvhole lavv of god generally is abrogated pa. 121. li. 39. The scripture speaketh not one vvord off preaching or baptizing priuately or openly page 89. line 6. The scripture hath not commaunded nether can yt be by necessary collection theroff gathered vvhether vve should receiue the communion clothed or naked page 24. line 21. The scripture hath appointed no discipline for the correcting off suche as shall contemn the hearing off the vvord and coÌ„mon praier page 88 line 47. He matcheth the iudiciall lavves off god gyuen vnto the Ivves vvith the Turckes lavves page 149 line 32. HE alovveth th 〈◊〉 sentence off Cyrill vvhich condemneth the iustice off g … … ishing those by aeternall death vvhich suffered corporâ—â—â—â—ath vnder the lavv page 149. line 48. He matcheth the â—ouâ—â—shing off saithe by consideration off the creatures vvith popishe imagety page 571. line 2. TO maintein the sole election off the bishop he vvould haue the free elections off magistrates in cities and Borovvgh Tovvnes taken avvay page 171. line 49. VVherby he vvill haue the forme of gouernement off the common vvealth framed vnto the form off the church vvheroff notvvithstanding and that most vntrvvly he accuseth me Likevvise that vnder the gospell there is no punishment off the body laid vpon a transgressor but that if he repent so that he may seem vvorthy to haue the punishement vvithdravvn he may finde forgiuenes page 150. line 9. No man vvhat crime soeuer he hath committed is to be secluded from any lavvful vocation if he repeÌ„t And by vocation he meaneth publike office page 146. line 23. The externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrate must be according to the kinde and form off gouernement vsed in the common vvealth pa. 389. li. 5. vvhich beside the absurditie vtterly ouerthrovveth the liberty vvhich him self pretendeth that the church hath in disposing off yt In the Apostels times yt vvas permitted to all men to preache the vvord off God page 191. li. 16. Beside Pastors there are novv vvith vs Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes page 229. line 6. ALthovvgh there vvere a sufficient nomber off able men to supply the places of the reading ministers yet the reading ministers ovvght to kepe their places still page 485. lin 5. The vvord ys as effectual red as preached Page 569. lin 23. To those vvhich vnderstand the scriptures they are as vvhot and lightsom red as preached page 573. li. 34. publike reading in the church is as solemâ—â— matter as Catechising the youth page 425. lin 43. Yt may be that some men be more aedified 〈◊〉 simple reading off the scriptures â–ª then by sermons paâ—â— â—80 li. 30. To that I say that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared ether in goodnes vvithin them selues or fruict to the hearers vvith the scripture or reading thereof he ansvvereth that that maketh against sermons as vvel as against homilies and rather against sermons then against them Page 717 li. 52. VVherby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and more fruiteful to the hearers then sermons
and high priestes maketh mention off a band off men yt may appeare that as the seruantes and ministers belonged vnto the high Priestes and Scribes so the band belonged vnto those Capitaines off the temple and that they were there as those which had the charge off the band The same may yet appeare further by that where he laying hould off certein off the Apostles put them in prison after they came owt they confirmed them selues against their threates by that the fame thing was happened vnto them which was propheceyed of by Dauid and wheroff our Sauiour had experience in that both Iewes and Gentils and both powers cyuill and ecclesiasticall rose vp against him Wherby it is cleare they had regard to the owtrage which they suffred both off the Priestes and Scribes Iewes and of the Capitain off the temple a Gentill As for the cheif of the Sinagoge they are the same which be called Elders and Ancients off the church in reformed churches wheroff in euery Synagoge and assemblie off the Iewes there was some nombre as shall in place appeare called cheif not for that they had ouer the mynisters but becawse they had the gouernement off the people Whether the Seniors off the people were before the restoring off the captiuitie of Babylon shall appeare in place not to be much materiall Yt is a certein reason which is drawen from the figures to the thinges figured in this sort for if they were not like vnto them they shadow forth they should be no figures I apply not particularly the partes of the Arck to the partes of the church but compare generally the building off the one with the other Which point also S. Stephen and the Apostle to the Hebrues doo likewise presse Therfore thalledging off Caluin against thapplication off euery part thereof vnto the church is ydle The exceptions are to small pourpose For when I ask vvhat I deny not but some thinges might haue bene left for if he had would he might haue knowen that as the Lord aduanced his glory towardes his church and approched vnto men by knowledge of him selff so he did more precisely and particularly set forth all thinges perteining to the church and gouernement therof and that therfore vnder the gospell wherin he hath opened the threasures of knowledge yt must follow that he left thinges more cleare and certein then before Yet I will towch the vanitie off his exceptions For pinnes and nailes I would ask him how he can make a cofer without them especially for the water And therfore if he had prepared bordes c. and not set them together I thinck he had not obeied the voice of god and it is asmuch as if he should say that he was not bidden to take a nedle into his hande which is bidden to sew Whether the windowes were off glasse or Christall made not to pourpose so that they gaue a cleare light which the word Moses vseth signified it was enough Howsoeuer yow were misled by certein expositours the couer mentioned Gen. 8. is cmmaunded in the making off the Ark where the Lord also prescribeth yt should be a cubit aboue the Ark very fit to shut the waters that they should not fall continually vpon the Ark. The ouerseer and maister off this work coulde be no other then Noa at whose prescript yt was to be doon and which was to answer if any thing had bene doon otherwise then the commaundement The Rauen and doue sent forth were not thinges belonging to the building off the Ark and yet as meat and drink they are commaunded him forsomuch as they perteined to preseruation off his life which the Lord had gyuen him in charge That out of Pellicane and againe and againe out off Caluin are such as graunted conclude not against this cawse That the learned writers say God charged the Iewes with ceremonies of his owne that they should haue no leysure to vse any other they neuer vse it to proue that there is more libertie to the churche now then in times past to deuise any thing but it is their buckler which they hold owt against the Papistes who by example of that church would lode this now with such a multitude off ceremonies Therfore hē doth not in this allegorie follow their autoritie but rather clean contrary walketh herin in the Papistes steppes Which where they are pressed by this so diligent prescript off all thinges by the word of God in the ould people answere as the D. that that was doon for the rudenes off that people and because they were but children and that it were iniurie to the church off Christ to shut her vp so short as that was Where he cōcludeth of them that there was onely expressed what should be doon in the worship off God and not in externall policie first there be no such wordes wheruppon he may pull in that and not in the external policie And in deed it is not to distinguish but to pull in peeces for what whorship off God can there be in the assemblies of Christiā mē withowt the ministerie of the word withowt externall policie withowt administration of Sacramentes without praying openly and with owtward sound all vvhich are externall When Caluin calleth yt spirituall worship his meaning is nothingles then to oppose spirituall to all externall doon vvith mouth and other partee of the body but he calleth it spirituall by comparison off the worship of God vnder the law which consisted in corporall washinges cleansinges apparell c. and this is that which ether abuseth him or wherwith he would abuse other And although no singular partes off the Tabernacle or Temple themselues should set forth vnto vs the externall policie of the churches yet whē not onely they be described but yt is prescribed how many kinde of officers there should be and what euery one should doo that might suffise to proue that if he will needes separate the worship off God from thexternall policie yet as the Lord set forth the one so he left nothing vndescribed in the other Towching the alteration made by Salomon and Dauid in sorting the Ministers off the Temple and other thinges an other of the Papistes reasons to proue that they may ordein thinges beside the prescript off the word yt is answered in the same chap. the Ans alledgeth where yt is saied that all that was doon by commaundement of god And in an other place is set forth that those were instituted by commaundement of Dauid which had commaundement off God browght by the handes off Gad the seer and of Nathan the Prophet But seing the Ans vvill not accord vvith me in this point of appointing thinges vnder the law let him at least beare him self speak in his former booke God in the ould law prescribed vnto his people perfect and absolute lawes not onely morall and iudiciall but ceremoniall nether was there the least thing to be doon in the church omitted in the law Let him shew