seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
Hampden Esquire of blessed memory who first called me to this place and likewise his sonne of great hope William Hampden by whom I receiued much comfort and incouragement in my Ministerie whose blessed end was to me no smalzeale of Gods blessing vpon my poore labors and now acknowledging Gods fauour towards me who hauing taken away hath supplied your Worship resolute in your selfe and in your worthy seruice for the truth of whom I haue receiued more then common loue For which in all thankfulnesse I render my selfe bound I thought it my duty to dedicate these my poore indeuors to your worshipfull selfe and Name Beseeching you to accept this my slender gift as a testimony of that due respect which worthily I beare towards you I pray God long to continue the honour of your whole house both in your selfe present and in all the the hopes posteritie and especially to make the long continued honor which in this life you haue eternall in the kingdome of his Sonne From great Hampden in Buck. 1608. Your worships in all Christian duty bound and ready RICMARD WOODCOKE AN ANSVVER TO A LEVDE AND VNLEARNED PAMPHLET SENT ABROAD IN WRITING BY SOME POPISH CORNER-CREEPER INTITVLED A few plaine and forcible reasons for the Catholike faith against the Religion of the Protestants The first Reason PAPIST THE Church of Christ continueth for Matth. 16. 18. 28 20. euer as is plaine in the Gospell confessed of all sides But the Protestants congregation Luk. 1. 33. hath not continued for euer and our Church hath Therefore not their congregation but our Church is the true Church of Christ PROTESTANT FIrst I answer to the whole syllogisme then to each part The whole syllogisme is faultie and sophisticall because there are in it quatuor termini First the Church of Christ viz. Catholike and inuisible Secondly the Protestants congregation viz. particular and visible Thirdly continueth for euer viz. inuisibly Fourthly hath not continued for euer viz. visible Wherefore the propounding of one viz. The Church Catholike and inuisible and assuming of another viz. Some particular and visible Church Affirming of the Catholike Church that it continueth for euer inuisible denying of the Protestants congregation that it hath not continued for euer visible You play fast and loose and like a Iugler deceiue the eyes of the simple For it is all one as if you should thus reason The true Sunne shineth continually Our Sunne shineth not continually Therefore our Sunne is not the true Sunne The Sunne indeed shineth continually but not in all mens sight And the true Church continueth for euer but neither wholly nor alwayes visible Our sun shineth not continually viz. to vs or in our fight The Protestant congregations haue not continued for euer to wit visible and apparant Now as he that concludes our sunne not to be the true sunne because it shines not alwayes in our sight proues himselfe no better then a Sophister so he that concludes the Protestant congregations to be no part of the true Church because they haue not continued for euer visible as now they are shewes himselfe a deceitfull worker and can deceiue none but the vnlearned and vnstable who for want of knowledge in the Scriptures haue not their senses exercised to discerne betweene good and euill betweene light and darknesse betweene truth and falshood Next to each part I answer and first to the proposition Where you say the Church of Christ continueth for euer if you meane the Catholike Church the whole company of the faithfull past present and to come in all places and times ioyned to the fellowship of innumerable Angels and Heb. 12. 22. 23. 24. to Iesus the Mediator as the head by the inuisible communion of one spirit I graunt you this Church continueth for euer howbeit knowne onely to God who onely knoweth 2. Tim. 2. 19. who are his and so the long continued visibilitie of your falsly called Catholike Church is not an argument to proue that the garish strumpet of Rome which hath made all nations drunken with the cup of her fornications is the true Reuel 17. 2. Church much lesse the Catholike Church and therefore out of your owne proposition rightly vnderstood I conclude against you The Catholike Church is not visible The Romish Church is visible Therfore the Romish Church is not the Catholike Church To your assumption The Protestants congregation hath not continued for euer If you meane the particularity of any congregation that now is called Protestant do you not then see that you fight with your owne shadow For we knowe and confesse that our particular congregations as now they stand haue not continued for euer but haue bene gathered ordered and established some earlier some later as God gaue the opportunitie and as by the light of the Gospell they were able to dispell the Cimmerian darknesse of Poperie But if by the Protestant congregation you meane as you ought the doctrine faith and worship of God now profesled and practised in the Protestant congregations we say your assumption is false and for proofe hereof appeale to the footsteps of all the particular Churches recorded in the Scriptures and to the Apostolike doctrine which they receiued If the now Protestant congregations do continue in the Apostles doctrine in fellowship in breaking of Acts 2. 42. bread and prayer as the Churches of Ierusalem Antioche Galatia Corinth c. did then the Protestant congregation in those things wherin consisteth the true being of a Church hath continued for euer and doth and shall continue maugre all popish heresie and treason And therefore thus we returne your Argument against you That church which cotinueth for euer is the true church of Christ The Protestant Church hath continued for euer doth and shall continue for euer because the word of God which they hold inuiolably abideth for euer Therefore the Protestant Church is the true Church of Christ PAPIST That their congregation hath not continued for euer is most plaine For where as there hath bene since Christ 1600. yeares let themset downe but two for euerie hundreth years and so in all but 32. and we will vrge them no further PROTESTANT The mouthes of Papists are alwayes open like hell and the graue they still craue and are neuer the fuller This old stale demaund hath beene alreadie often answered But would you haue two congregations or two only persons for euery hundreth yeare Before the captiuitie of Gods Church vnder Popish tyrannie let the godly Martyrs Bishops and Pastors whom histories do record and whose writings are extant testifie the faith of those congregations wherein they liued and serued in the chiefest points of doctrine which we maintaine against Papists That famous Iewell of blessed memorie hath to your euerlasting shame maintained it and if the God of this world had not blinded 2. Cor. 4. 3. 4. your eyes that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto you Nay if the iust
God had not 2. Thes 2. 10. 11. sent you strong illusions to beleeue lies because you would not beleeue the truth it could not be that you should thus grope at noone day and still call for proofe in that which is so abundantly proued After the Popes had once fully gotten into the chaire of Apostasie the ashes of those witnesses of God whom for the testimonie of Iesus Christ you haue slaine as they are kept in store for a witnesse against you on earth so their spirits now in heauen do cry against you as the bloud of Abel against Cain Since the discouery of that Man of sinne in these latter yeares you haue found our congregations through Gods goodnesse much thicker in all nations then you would haue suffered if your Nimrods armes had bene as long as they are wont to be But what if we should onely answer you that the first of these 1600. is more in triall of truth then all the rest as that one day of the institution of Matrimonie betweene one man Math. 19. 4. and one woman ioyned together by an vnseparable knot is more to proue the integritie thereof then all the yeares succeeding wherein Polygamie and Dinorce had preuailed Would you renounce the triall of these incorrupted times and appeale to the latter wherein sundry corruptions were apparantly crept in What were this else but to shunne the light as the maner of deceiuers and euill doers is What the religion of this hundreth was nay what it ought to be for euer let the Apostolike writers witnesse and it the Religion of the Protestant congregations be the same with the religion taught beleeued and practised in that hundreth let all the latter times know that they are too young to controle it much more let Popish noueltie retire into the schooles and cloysters where it was bred Lastly all the times succeeding haue imbraced the Scriptures as the very word of God haue retained the confession of faith called the Apostles Creede as agreeable to holy Scriptures and only herein haue sought for the Canon and rule of truth The Protestant congregations holding the same faith and seruing God by the same rule haue therefore on their sides the consent of all ages from Moses to Christ from Christ to his Apostles to this day auouching the faith and seruice of God which they follow and practise and are compassed with a greater cloude of witnesses then all the Popish Canonists Summists Iesuits and Disputants shall euer be able to shew Hence I thus conclude The faith of the first hundreth recorded in the Scriptures and reteined in the ages following holding firmely the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed is the true faith and they so beleeuing and holding the true Church The faith of the Protestant congregations is the same Therefore the faith of the Protestant congregations is the true faith and they the true faith and they the true Church PAPIST They say they haue beene though innisible and they know not where This answer cannot serue nor yeeld any content to a soule desirous of truth For what man carefull of saluation would leaue a Church alwayes visible and knowne as ours hath beene and follow a congregation the beginning whereof is yet fresh in memorie and was neuer heard of before for many ages together as themselues cannot deny PROTESTANT As your religion consists wholly of errors so you must needs defend it by lies and that against your owne knowledge if at least you haue informed your selfe of the truth of that we say Were not Christ and his Apostles visible were not the godly Bishops and Fathers of the Primitiue Church visible say we not that our religion is the same that Christ and his Apostles taught that the true Church of God succeeding in all ages did professe and practise according to the Scriptures whereas on the other side wherein soeuer you differ from vs you differ from the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and haue new forbished erroneous and hereticall opinions and build vpon mens imperfections and frailties and those neither agreeing with the Scriptures nor with the analogie of that faith which themselues mainteined taught Why then shame you not to affirme that we know not where the witnesses teachers of our religion haue bin for so your meaning must be True it is that against the long continued visibility of your inglorious Synagogue wherby you beare the ignorant in hand that yours is the true Church We answer truely and proue it by instance of the times of Elias and of our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles that the synagogue of Satan is oftentimes and for long time more visible then the Church of God and of Christ and that the Church of Christ is like the Moone as In Psal 10. Augustine Augustine compares it which sometime giues no light at all This our answer may giue content to euery soule that is desirous of truth especially such as will take the paines to search the Scriptures whether the things we say be so or no. As for that your bad asseueration that your Church hath beene alwaies visible and that the beginning of ours is yet in fresh memorie And was neuer heard of before in many ages together as our selues you say cannot deuie it is euen as true as the rest of your religion Vnfold vs the antiquity of that capitall and fundamentall point of your religion Subesse Extran com de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam Romano pontifici est de necessitate salutis This is your principle of principles and yet as it is contrarie to all records of Scripture wherin there are no footsteps of any such dependance so is it controlled by the cleare testimony of all antiquitie by the primitiue state and constitution of the churches Concil Afric cap. 92. 101. 105. Concil Niceu Can. 6. Epist lib. 6. epist 30. li. 4. epist 38. in all the Christian world and by the iudicious sentence of Gregorie the first a Bishop of Rome And can we not deny that the beginning of our congregation is yet in fresh memorie c. God open the eyes of the blind to see your cunning and sophisticall equiuocation which is now become the idiome and proper language of poperie True it is indeede that the recouery of that libertie which by Gods mercy our Churches now enioy since they came out of the spirituall Babylon which is the Romish Synagogue may be fetched out of late memorie But is this the question betweene vs Or rather whether the beginning of that religion which giues the beeing to our churches and whereby they are distinguished from your Antichristian synagogue be yet in fresh memorie If Christ and his Apostles with their doctrine and faith be but of yesterday then so is ours But if theirs be from the beginning our religion being the same beginneth not one day or howre later then theirs did Lastly be it that the pompous and vainglorie of your synagogue be
elder then this renewed face of our churches will that proue any aduantage for you Was not the Apostasie of Israel elder then the protestation of Elias against 1. King 18. them much more then the returne of many out of Israel in the dayes of Hezekiah Was not the Pharisaicall synagogue 2. Chron. 30. before the preaching of Christ before the church which he gathered by his preaching Boast not therefore of what standing your Antichristian tyranny is but tell vs if you can of what truth your religion is Truth we graunt you is most ancient but error also is often very ancient and is called by Angustine Vetustissima falsit as most ancient falshood and Epist 166. when the truth after a long time of suppression commeth to the light againe in the eyes of them that iudge by the outward appearance error seemeth elder then the truth Wherfore let vs clime aboue these middle antiquities which may be common both to truth and error and let vs come to the eldest and most ancient times of the Church and there behold the true and vndisguised face of the auncientest and truest Church Let vs search the Scriptures which onely conteine the most infallible description of the true Church If you shun this light say it is because there is no truth in Ioh. 3. 19. 20. 21. you yea because your workes are euill and you feare to come to the light least it should be manifest that you walke in the truth PAPIST Secondlie this is to make your cursed Synagogue of the Iewes that crucified the Some of God and wickedlie cried out His bloud be vpon vs and our children for more glorious then Christs Church for which he shed his bloud and praied so inst antlie to his father for as they now be in manie parts of the world so can they shew where they haue remained preached their religion for all these 1600 yeares and to say that Christs Church is inferior to the Iewish Synagogue is so blasphemous as Christian eares should not endure to heare PROTESANT Did Christ shed his bloud to make his Church glorious and eminent in worldly prosperity like to the strumpet of Rome that sittes vpon many waters and hath rule ouer many Reuel 17. 1. people yea ouer Kings and princes No no his kingdome is not of this world By many tribulations must the Ioh. 18. 36. Act. 14. 22. Rom. 8. 17. Ioh. 16. 33. 2. Tim. 2. 12. Hebr. 12. 8. Church of Christ enter into the kingdome of heauen It must bee comforted to his suffering that it may be comforted to his glory If it suffer with him it shall raigne with him In the worlde it shall haue trouble but in him only peace All that are not pertakers of chastismens are bastards and not sonnes Againe did Christ by his instant prayer to his Father request that his Church might treade on the necks of Emrours ride on a stately sâ—eed and Kings to hold the stirrop and going by on foot to lead the Popes horse by the bridle Or that they might â—â—â—eample patrimonies large seigniories generall command ouer king and key sar yea power of life and death ouer euery creature and to translate kingdomes and to turne the world vpside-downe at their pleasure Where is this prayer contained why had not Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles the benefite of it why was the primitiue church so washed by horrible persecutions Christ neuer made any such prayer he prayed that his Church might be preserued not altogether from but in Iohn 17. 15 temptations not that the worldly powers might not annoy the bodies of his Saints but that their soules might be kept from euill not that they might haue their heauen in this world but that they might bee with him where he is and see his Vers 24 glory Againe was Christ inferior to the Iewes when they crucified him or Stephen when they stoned him to death or Iames when Herod cut off his head or Peter when he bound him in prison what saith the scripture For thy sake Acts. 7. 12 we are killed all the day long and we are counted as sheepe for the slaughter Neuerthelesse in all these things we are more then Psal 44. 23. Rom. 8. 36. 37 conquerors through him that loued vs. Surely by Romish Logicke and and Romish diuinitie farre more happy and glorious was the condition of Pilat the priestes and accursed Iewes that cried Crucifie him crucifie him then of poore Christ O you that are bewitched and inchanted by these Luk. 23. 21. Baby lonish charmes will you be led by such guides who know not the beginnings of Christian religion If any will be my Disciple let him take vp his crosse and follow me will you Math. 16. 24 thinke that such can guide you to heauen whose God is the world whose glory is shame which minde earthly things With them no outward prosperity no Church no earthly kingdome no Church no scarlet coloured beast Phil. 3. 19. no triple crowned Pope no hatted Cardinals no mirred Bishops no Church But see the singular boldnesse of this popish proctor ioyned with singular folly The cursed Iewes can bring as far fetcht antiquicy to proue their Synagoue to bee the true Church as the Papists can for theirs If such antiquity can make you Papists why may it not as well make you Iewes This forcible Reasoner prescribeth 1600 yeares for the Papacie not a yeare or a day lesse doth hee allowe to the Iewish Synagogue from whence I thus reason That which by Popish confession belongs as well to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists that can neuer proue the Popish Synagogne to be the Catholique and true Church Antiquitie of 1600 yeares belongs as much to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists as this plaine Reasoner confesseth Therefore antiquitie of 1600 yeares can neuer proue the Popish Synagogue to be the catholike and true Church PAPIST That our Church hath continued all this while is as certaine for to omit other Prouinces and Kingdomes where it hath beene openlie knowen and not to speake howe wee can shew the continuall succession of Bisops in diuerse places of Christendom as Rheimes Padua Leigh and from the Apostles times to these our daies we can heere in our country proue the continuance of our religion for these 1600 yeares euen from the time of Saint Gregorie the great Pope of Rome who sent hither Saint Austen that conuerted vs Englishmen froÌ„ Paganisme and Idolatry to the faith of Christ as our owne histories teach and from Saint Gregorie we can ascend by the current streame of Popes his predecessors to Saint Peter and Christ himselfe For that it was our Catholike religion which was then brought in by Saint Austen no doubt caÌ„ be made for our chronicles say so much the ruines of so many ancieÌ„t Abbies latelie suppressed do aboundantly testifie the same none of reason or reading will denie it
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
take vpon him to define of what nature the sins are which by the praiers of the liuing are remitted to the dead what those sins are saith he which so hinder coÌ„ming to the kingdom of heauen that yet through the merits of their holy frends they obtaine pardon after death it is most hard to find most dangerous to define I surely euen vntill this time although I haue taken paines enough about it yet could neuer De ciui Dei lib. 21. cap. 27. attaine to search it out Secondly Augustine so praieth for his mother Monica that yet he doubreth not that she in her life time obtayned remission of all her sins by the bloud of Christ dispeÌ„sed to her waiting dailie at his Altar he therefore praieth only that it may be vnto her according to her faith that she may be preserued froÌ„ the powers of darknes receiue the 1 Pet. 1. 9. end of her faith the saluation of her soule that is he praieth for her consuÌ„mation in the kingdome of God of Christ For Augustine himselfe confesseth Therefore no new merits are purchased for the deade when their friends do anie good for them but these things are recompensed to their former merits De verb. Apost Ser. 32 What is this to Popish praier for the gaole deliuery of souls that are in the pains of Purgatory of whoÌ„ you fain that many are the sooner deliuered by your lip-labors a deuise of late times to improue the Popes reuenues and to enrich Cloysters and idle bellies Lastly Augustine himselfe being so vnsetled in the matter of Prayer for the dead that he is faine to bring strange interpretations of the vse of Prayer and other charities for the dead For these being generally done for all the dead he saith that For those that are very good they are thankesgiuings for those that are very euill although they be no helpe to them yet are they comforts to the liuing and yet after that he saith they auaile to make their paines lighter and their damnation more tolerable which if it be so is some helpe for the middle sort they are propitiations that is supplicatorie praiers for pardon of their sinnes which yet speaking of his mother Monica he saith she had in her life time And to salue the Confes lib. 9. cap. 13. 2. Cor. 5. 10. Scripture which saith that euery one shall receiue according to that he hath done in his life he is faine to say that these in their life time deserued to haue benefit by the Churches prayers which what it is else but remission of sinnes Augustine I say being thus inwrapped in vncertainties maruaile you that Caluine said it was anile votum c. an old womans desire which her sonne did not examine by the rule of Scripture but of a naturall affection was desirous to approue vnto others Where resolution wanted in the matter there could be no sufficient warrant whatsoeuer you say to the contrary PAPIST About particular and auricular confession of sinnes we haue also the authoritie of antiquity as the same Caluine informeth Inst lib. 3. cap. 4. sec 7. Auricular confession ancient vs. I maruaile quoth he with what face they dare contend that the confession whereof they speake was ordained by Gods law the vse whereof I confesse was passing auncient but easily can I proue that in old time it was free Nay then with what face dare he deny that to be ordained by Gods law For what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles or what power could haue brought it into the Church it being so contrarie to our proude nature had not the Sonne of God himselfe planted that doctrine But it was free in old time saith he What then For do we not know that the Communion was so likewise in olde time If then the Church of England may make a law to bind men once in the yeare to the Communion may not the Catholike Church do the like for confession Still Caluine giueth vs the ancient Fathers but reserueth the Scriptures for himselfe we take what be granteth but deny what he requireth PROTESTANT Confession of some particular sinnes specially such as lay heauie vpon the conscience but not of euery particular sinne with euery circumstance and that to euery parish priest in secret which is your popish eare-shrift such confession I say to a Priest by speciall order of the Churches appointed thereunto Caluine doth confesse and well may to be very ancient and yet maintaine popish eare-thrift to be very yong as receiuing his first authoritie from the Laterane councell vnder Innocentius 3. in the yeare of our Lord 1215. as Caluine in the same place telleth you But you aske with what face be dare that it was ordained by Gods law For you say what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles Tertullian whom you will not deny to be a man of reason though he shew the antiquitie of offerings for the De Coron milit dead yet confesseth there is no Scripture for it Therefore your forcible reason hath neither force nor grace when you thus conclude Antiquitie vsed confession of particular sinnes to a Priest Therefore it was ordained by Gods law Besides doth not M. Caluine proue vnto you that antiquitie held it not to be of diuine institution for otherwise Nectarias Bishop of Constantinople would not haue abrogated it for the abuse of it neither would Chrysostome after him haue giuen so much liberty from such confession as he doth as he is alleaged by M. Caluine in the next section to that you mention See Inft. lib. 3. cap. 4. Sec. 8. therefore with what face you chalenge him in that wherein he bringeth so sufficient proofe The proofe by him there alleaged I set not downe at large because if you will you may as easily finde them set downe by him as you could find this peece by you alleaged But whether your corner-shrift be of that Antiquity that you pretend if Caluins proofes perswade you not see what Beatus Rhenanus writeth Moreouer for no other cause haue we here vsed the testimonies of manie then to this end that no man Argâ—â— in Tertul lib. de pâ—nitent should maruaile that Tertullian hath spoken nothing of this corner or secret confession of sinnes committed which at that time was vtterly vnknowen And in another place in his book De poenitentia Admonit de Tertul dogmat he mentioneth onlie publike confession And againe Not onlie in Tertullian but euen in those which liued manie ages after there is onelie mention of publike pennance and confession If it had descended from Christ and his Apostles it could not haue beene so earely and so long out of vse Such is the antiquity of your Eareshriâ—t Your next reason to deriue it froÌ„ Christ and his Apostles is because it being a
signe but in Christ whom they confessed by that signe Neither was any of them euer heard to say Aue cruxspes vnie◠Hatle ô crosse our onely hope As touching the match of equalitie that you make betweene the signe of the Crosse and the Crucifixe you may well thinke that the ancient church being so long without the image of the crucifixe namely aboue 600. yeares and yet so early vsing Sexta Synod Can 82. the signe of the Crosse did acknowledge no small difference betweene the one and the other A transient signe to signifie in gesture that which the word signifieth in speech and that onely for meanes of confession differeth much from an image made to represent the Sonne of God whose Godhead no colours nor proportion can expresse whose Manhood is not the whole of his person whose nature person and suffering is sufficiently yea abundantly described in the Scriptures for all men to see and heare neither is it possible for any art to make that visible in the image of the crucifixe which is to be knowne beleeued remembred of Christ and his sufferings according to the description of his word To leaue the Scriptures follow a crucifixe is to go from the Sunne in the firmament to the signe of the sunne painted in a table To adde to the word the helpe of the crucifix is to accuse the infufficiencie of the word The signe of the Crosse had no such vse in the beginning neither hath now with vs and therefore differeth largely from the signe of the crucifixe But it is worth the marking how barely you bring into comparison first the vse of the signe of the Crosse among vs and the vse thereof in poperie Do we teach to trust in that signe Do we pray to it do we worship it do we blesse with it do we fence arme our selues with it these are your Idolatries which you slily passe ouer as if there were a like vse of the signe of the Crosse with vs and with you Papists Secondly the signe of the Crosse and the image of the crucifixe as if you did only make the image of the crucifixe historically and not to worship it When we commit idolatrie with the signe of the Crosse then compare our vse thereof with your idolatries to the image of the crucisixe Lastly remember heere also that which I spake of the former The signe of the Crosse is only an indifferent externall rite among vs It is neither principle nor second nor third nor fourth nor any point of our Religion PAPIST Fourthly in Baptisme they vse Godfathers and abrenuntiation Why not also other ceremonies namely holy Oile and Exorcisme Holy oyle Exorcisme Reade the Scriptures and as little there is for the first as the last Aske the auncient Fathers and as much is found for the last as for the first PROTESTANT In the administration of the holy Sacraments the neerer we come to the institution of Christ the more chast and incorrupt we esteeme the administration of them to be and therefore haue taken that libertie which the Church of God euer vsed no further to follow the example of former times in matter of ceremone then we do euidently see to serue for edification By which rule no doubt sundrie ceremonies of auncient time vsed afterward grew out of vse as namely in Baptisme the tasting of milke and honie with certaine other ceremonies either for come linesse or instruction taken vp in the primitiue Church which afterwards were layd downe againe as the times and growth of the Church fawe most conuenient As touching Godfathers and abrenuntiation for that the one hath a good vse as well to prouide that only the children of beleeuing parents be brought to Baptisme as also to commit the care of the infants education to men for godlinesse and sound faith approued and the other expresseth the couenant on the behalfe of the infant baptized wherewith he standeth charged the mention whereof serueth as well to call to the mindes of others before baptized what they owe to God by the couenant betweene God and them sealed in baptisme as also to enter the obligation of the infants faith and obedience whereunto as soone as his yeares admit he must know himselfe to be bound by the law of his baptisme Therfore our Church of a care that all things may be done orderly and to edification and that the end of Baptisme may be attained hath vpon good reason continued these two When you shall be able to shew vnto vs as serious profitable vse of your Exorcisme and Oyle then may we enter into consulation whether in so lawfull libertie to alter or refuse vnnecessarie ccremonies it were not much better to reason you haue so superstitiously profaned them besides the slender vse to leaue them onely to you then after so long a farewell to giue them new entertainement specially Scripture saying nothing for them and the auncient Fathers although they testifie of the vse of these as also some others by you neglected yet in matter of ceremonie allow freedome to euery Church in euery time These also are no principles of our Religion PAPIST Fiftly the booke alloweth the vse of the Surplice in their Seruice and Sacramonts vvhy then may not Copes Vestiments and Copes Vestiments such like be admitted also For no more can they shew for the one then vve for the other PROTESTANT Multitude of needlesse ceremonies is alwayes a burthen and therefore a bondage both in the yoke of obseruation and also in the taile of superstition whereunto through blindnesse and carnall deuotion men commonly fall And therefore our church though it retaine the Surplice as most remote both in the originall and perpetuall vse from your superstition and that onely for comelinesse without putting any religion in it yet both is and ought to be sparing in affecting the multitude of your theatricall or stage-like vestiments which would rather disguise then a dorne the Church of Christ And herein our church hath followed the rule of Scripture which albeit of loue and for peace it teacheth to suffer some things not necessary yet streightly warneth the church not to be intaugled againe in the yoke of boudage And so there is Scripture against many and those Gal. 5. 1. before refused more then against one and that neuer out of vse And heere againe I may not forget still to put you in mind that far it is from our church to esteeme the surplice or any vse thereof as a principle or any part of our religion PAPIST Sixtly in the Collect vpon Michaelmas day they confesse that the Angels defend and protect our life how then can they denie Praying to Saints that they know our necessities and praiers and so no reason can they alleage why we may not pray to them as well as we do to our mortall brethren PROTESTANT Protect is not in the Collect but only succour and defend For we yeeld only a ministerie to
Sess 3. cap. 1. Can. 1. body is in the sacrament Circūscriptiuè But your Trent Councell saith that the body of Christ is conteined in the sacrament of the Eucharist Wherfore although Luther had an opinion of a Real presence by himself which he could not tell how to expresse nor would haue any disputation about the maner yet in as much as he was farre from allowing your Popish charme whereby you worke your monstrous Transubstantiation nor helde any carnall eating neuer alleage Martin Luthers Real presence to giue countenance to your carnall presence The Apologie may well acknowledge him an excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world and yet not allow of his error in any thing neither will we say that euery wrong beliefe euen in matter of the sacrament bringeth damnation to a godly man otherwise holding the foundation And lastly Martine Luthers priuate opinion is no principle of our religion as you very well know PAPIST These things being so with what conscience can the Protestants iustlie exclaime against vs for defending a speciall confession of our sinnes absolution of the Priest the vse of Images and the picture of Christ crucified the holie ceremonies of oile and exorcisme copes and holie vestiments that Angels know our praiers and may be praied vnto that Christs soule descended into hell for the deliuerie of the holy Fathers that died before his sacred Passion the Real presence of Christ in the sacrament when as all these points either in expresse termes or by necessarie consequence be gathered out of the grounds of their owne Religion PROTESTANT These things being so that no one of the points mentioned is any principle of our Religion nor in any one of the points which we acknowledge do we agree with the Papists and the last of the seauen is none of ours with what conscience could a Papist go about to raise a reason for Popish idolatrie out of the principles of our religion in the end neither build vpon any principle of our Religion nor proue any agreement betweene Popish confession and absolution and that which the Church of England vseth betweene the signe of the Crosse as it is vsed in the Church of England and Popish Images betweene Godfathers and Abrenunciation and popish oile and exorcisme as now they are betweene the decencie of the Surples and the superstition of Popish vestemints betweene the doctrine of some Protestants touching the article of descending into hel Popish Limbus no nor yet betweene Martin Luthers Real presence and Popish carnal presence wheras no one of these Popish points can either in expresse terms or by any necessary cōsequēce be gathered either out of any principle orany practise or ceremonie in our religion as hath been shewed PAPIST The Fourth reason That is the true Church which hath the scriptures on their side and expoundeth them in that sense and meaning which was intended by the holie Ghost and none can deny but al this is verified of the Catholike Church and not of the Protestant as a fewe plaine arguments shall make manifest First therefore no reason in the world can the Protestants aleage to proue that the scriptures be theirs or to iustifie their interpretation which we cannot bring also for vs. For let them pretend conference of places recourse to the fountaines of the Greeker Hebrue or what else they will all that we can say for our selues and with a◠great probability as they and so in any iudgmet not palpablypartial we nothing inferior On the cōtoary we to maintaine our expositiō beside all other helps cite the consent of ancient Fathers the cōmon practise of Gods Church the decrees of generall Councels none of which they will stand to and therefore in all equity and reason wee passing much superiour can we then lacke the true sense of scripture that haue all these to backe our interpretation specially that of Gods Church in generall councels or can the Protestants haue it that be destitute of all these as their deniall of them doth euidentlie proue and conuince PROTESTANT This forcible Reasoner seemeth now as if he would come to vs and ioyne issue with vs to be tryed by the Scriptures whether the Popish Church or our Church be the true Church But surely if there be no more force in his reason then plainenes in his dealing this reason wil be like his fellowes and so proue neither forcible nor plaine For when the reckoning of his reason is cast vp he calleth backe the triall of the true Church from the scriptures to his pretended Fathers and Councels and againe from them to Gods Church that is in his meaning the Popish Church from whence all vseth to be deuolued to the Pope And so in conclusion the question being whether the Popish Church be the true Church we must be tried by the Pope who were much to blame if he would not say that his owne Church is the true Church for euen theeues will say that they are honest men Your owne Cannon law hath prouided that in all matters of faith all men yea euen all Bishops must referre themselues to the Pope Quoties c. As often as anie matter Caus 24. q. 1 of faith is debated I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops ought to referre the matter to none but to Peter that is to the authoritie of his name and honour What is the authority of Peters name and honour but the Pope and therefore the Glosse there setteth downe in the margent It is the Popes office to determine a question moued about faith And Thomas Aquinas It belongeth to faith to sticke to the Popes determination Opuse con error Graec. it matters of faith yea and in those things also that belong to good manners If then in matter of faith or maners we cannot agree vpō sense of scripture the Pope must strike the stroke which he will be sure shall not hurt himselfe So very fitly agreeth vnto you that which Athanasius speaketh against Orat. 1. con Arria◠the Arrians They presume to determine of faith and being themselues guiltie and obnoxious to indgment like vnto Caiaphas they vsurpe the office of indging These are the men that will proue their Church to be the true Church by hauing the scriptures on their side but they will be the interpretors of scriptures by the mouth of their Pope Well go too though vnder the bare pretence of scriptures you meane to bring in the Pope yet let vs see how you proue that the popish Church which you falsly call the Catholike Church hath the scriptures on her side and expoundeth them by the sense intended by the holy Ghost Your first argument is onely a vaine brag Forsooth you can bring any reason for your expositiōs that the Protestāts can bring for theirs as conference of places recourse to the fountaines and what else they will and with as great probabilitie as they Why then do you not vse to follow
that course in trying out the true meaning of the scriptures Why do you Trid. Concil Sess 4. Dec. 2. without all conference of places tie all men to such a sense onely as the holy mother Church that is your Popish Church holdeth to whom you say it belongeth to iudge of Trid. Concil ibidem the true sence of scriptures or whereupon all the Fathers consent in one which you know to be imposible to finde Why do you exclude the originall Bibles and bind all men in expositions to your vulgare Latine as authenticall and vpon no pretence to be refused Whatsoeuer you boast your owne coÌ„sciences tell you that conference of places and recourse to the fountaines will do your cause more harme then good And heere I wish the reader to obserue how sly lie you insinuate that in conference of places recourse to the fountaines or any other help that we vse there is onely probility and therfore these meanes will not serue there is no rest till you come to that which you call Gods Church in general councels which in conclusion shall be all laied in the Popes lap of which pierlesse meanes to know the vndoubted sense of scripture it is maruaile that Augustine in his bookes De Doctrina Christiana haÌ„dling that point at large forgatto speak specially if as you pretend this be the onely sure way that worthy Father spent his time belike in those meanes that haue onely a probability in them as the Phrase of scripture the circumstances of places comparison with other places analogie of faith c. And neuer thought of that which by your saying is worth all the rest As you haue onely boasted of conference of places and recourse to the fountaines so do you also of the consent of auncient Fathers whereunto your selues will not be bound For when Cardinal Caietane as Andradius Dcfens fid .. Trid. lib. 2. reporteth professeth that sometimes he will inteprete the scriptures against the straeme of the Doctors and exhorteth the readers to trie his writings not by other mens preiudice but by context of scripture some accused him for it as a fautor of the Lutherans But Andradius defendes him and giues his reasons First because the Fathers in infinit places specially of the old testamet leauing the literall sense which he confesseth doth onely serue to proue doctrine runne vpon other senses Heere a man may freely depart from their exposition and search for the literall sense Secondly because the Fathers very ofteÌ„ seeking for the true sense of the scriptures haue giuen senses very diuerse and vnlike one to another which if it be true when will you finde the consent of the Fathers about the sense of Scripture Therefore Andraduis concludes that no man is bound to their expositions but is at free libertie forsaking them all to trie what he can do by Gods help and to find out another new sense vnlike to the ancient Fathers expositions Be not offended with him he doth you more seruice then you are ware of For now you shal be at liberty to put vpon the scripture what sense you will though it be against the streame of the Fathers Thus you followe the coonsent of the ancient Fathers to whose sleeue when it comes to the iumpe you will not be pinned Andradius to serue your turne can alleage Augustines iudgment Epist 3. ad Fortunat. alleaged Dist 9. Can. Neque Nobis enim licebit c. For it shall bee lawfull for vs sauing the honorable respect which is due to the holy Fathers to mislike and reiect something in their writings if peraduenture we find that they haue otherwise iudged then the truth will beare by Gods help vnderstood either of others or of our selues Whereunto we will also adde what the same Augustine saith De vnitat Eccles cap. 10. Nemo mihi dicat c. Let no man say to me Or what saied Donatus to me or what saith Parmenianus or Pontius or anie of them for xe may not consent no not to Catholike Bishops if perhaps they be any where deceiued So that they haue held any opinioÌ„ against the Canonical scriptures May not these testimonies of Augustine as wel be alleaged held good on our part as on yours To conclude in this point against your appeale to Scriptures you vsually obiect that Heretikes alleage scriptures It is true and Diuels too but corrupted and Christ alleageth them against the Diuel and bids all men search them But do not heretickes also alleage the Fathers as boldly as you that call your selues Catholikes you cannot be ignorant of the mouthie clamor of Dioscorus the Euty chian hereticke in the Councell of Chalcedon I haue the testimonie Concil Chalced. Act. 1. of the auncient Fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyril in manie places I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the Fathers opinions I transgresse not in anie thing c. If we may not build vpon Scriptures because heretikes alleage them much lesse may we vpon Fathers which heretikes also alleage Your next meane is The common practice of Gods Church Indeede this rule will serue your turne well For what meane you by Gods Church Forsooth the Popish church So then no interpretation of Scripture may bee good that crosseth any practice of the Popish church so you shall bee sure to keepe all whole You should in wisedom haue concealed this as a mysterie among your selues For what is it else but a conspiracie that whatsoeuer the Scripture saith in words it must at no hand bee vnderstoode to be against Popish practise By this tyrannie your Popes haue gotten the start fall the world in so much that though he runne Dist â—0 Si Papa to hell himselfe and draw innumerable soules with him yet no mortall man may presume to reprooue him because he is to iudge all and none to iudge him Follow him to hell you that will we will follow our Lord Iesus as his word leadeth vs. For him we knowe to be the way the truth and the life Thus notably you proue that you haue the true sense of the Scriptures and therefore are the true Church Yours is the true sense because it is confirmed by your owne practise And why so Forsooth you say so What is this else but aske my fellow if I be a theefe First you set vp a wicked practise then you peruert the Scriptures to maintaine it and afterward prooue your interpretation of Scriptures by your practise Your practise is good Why the Scripture as you vnderstand it is for your practise And why must the Scripture be so vnderstoode because your practise so requires First you get both swords into your hands then you prooue it by Ecce due gladij behold heere two swords First Extrau cont de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam you get aboue Emperours and Kings then you prooue it by Inprincipio non in principijs in the beginning not in the beginnings Such is your practise and such
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
it may appeare that from the beginning vnto the present time wherein this noueltie sprang vp this point of originall sinne hath beene so constantlie kept within the faith of the church c. Howbeit the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes Likewise ad Bonifac. cont duas epist Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done but also out of the bookes of holis men who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation great glorie to bring some documetns or euidences not for that the authoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes but to admonish such who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scriptures haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men In like maner vsing S. Augustines words we say to you We thinke it a part of our charge not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures which alwayes we doe in the first place but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat the before your nouell and vaine boasting the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures haue taught as wee doe Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers Other points saith he there are about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pelag lib. 1. among themselues alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith and in some one matter some say better and more trulie then others But this about which we now deale belongeth to the very foundations of faith speaking of originall sinne in children When following Augustines example you first alleadge Scripture and then annexe the consent of Fathers as treading in the steps of the Scriptures wee will honour the Fathers iudgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow This is all which Augustine did or requires others to doe Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of originall sinne spread ouer all men and hauing receiued it from their Fathers so deliuered it to their posteritie Doth it follow that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally because they did constantly teach it You heard the contrary out of Augustine before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie They all found it before any of them deliuered it Where did they finde it but in the Scriptures The consent of Fathers may helpe to vnderstand the Scriptures but it is no rule to vnderstand them by but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent Lastly Paul indeed saith that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers that we should not be caried about with euery vvind of doctrine but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ This is my well-beloued sonne heare him Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man but by Iesus Christ yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul to challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers as Pastors and Doctors you meane by that sleight cunningly to conuey it to your selues But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the proportion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit but to trie them because manie false prophets are gone out into the world and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors It will be sayd vnto vs that we had Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ◠19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets that we were commanded to search the Scriptures that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell and declared my words to my people then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes To conclude we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs not because we haue heard it of them but because we are so taught in the Scriptures as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report but because they had heard Christ himselfe Ioh. 4. 41. 42. PAPIST They obiect and say that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures and captiously they demand whether it be better to follow the openions of men that might erre and be deceiued or the sentence of God himselfe that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceiued But answer is soone returned that the question betwixt vs and them is not as they would make simple people beleeue whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit but that which I wish al diligētly to note whether for the interpretation true sense of the scriptures we should not rather beleeue the anciēt holy and learned Fathers then those that liue in our daies so far frō the◠Apostles age neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church Let the question be propounded thus then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter PROTESTANT As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first and then of
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
But we may not disobey them Therefore c. How prooue you that we may not disobey them Thus. If he that heareth not the Church be to be taken as an heathen or publican then may we not disobey generall Councels But he that heareth not the Church is to be taken as an heathen or publican Therefore we may not disobey generall Councels The Proposition of this second syllogisme standing in greatest neede of proofe you leaue it altogether vnprooued and so after your maner you begge that alwaies which is in question For in the words of Scripture by you abused you should haue prooued First that the word Heare is to be extended to all matters generally Secondly that by the Church are meant onely generall Councels Thirdly that the Church is to be heard howsoeuer it iudge which points except you prooue the consequence inferred in the Proposition will not follow First therefore the matter heere referred to the Church is not decision of doctrines but censure of scandals as Chrysostome vpon the place obserueth Now will it follow He that obeyeth not the Churches censure in matter of scandall giuen to his brother is to be taken as an heathen or publican Therefore Councels may not be disobeyed whatsoeuer they teach in matter of faith and doctrine Secondly must we expect a generall Councel for redresse of euery scandall committed against a brother by him that will not be brought to amendment by more priuate admonition Did not the Church of Corinth censure the scandall of the incestuous person Had not the Church of 1. Cor. 5. 2. Thes 3. 14. Thessalonica power to censure the inordinate walkers And hath not euery particular Church power to censure all scandals within themselues By your reason then wee may not disobey particular Churches in their derisions of Doctrine neither can they erre any more then generall Councels which your selues will not yeeld and the errours of the Church of Corinth doe gaine say To shew the insufficiencie of your proofe I will set by it this argument Hee that will not heare a particular Church censuring in matter of scandall is to be helde as an heathen or publican Therefore wee may not disobey a particular Church in matter of doctrine The first part you cannot denie the consequent I knowe you will not yeeld such is the force of your forcible reason Thirdly doth not the place expresly limit the censure of the Church whereunto obedience must be giuen First it is supposed in the text that a brother hath trespassed against a brother Secondly that it cannot be denied but he hath done so Thirdly that his fault is tolde him as alone and with two or three witnesses so by the Church Lastly that the party offending conuict of the offence and iustly censured by the Church obeyeth not But if either the brother had not trespassed or had not beene conuicted and so the Church had vniustly censured him or if the Church had corruptly imposed any thing vpon him either to be beleeued or to be done was he then not hearing to be taken as a publican or an heathen Our Sauiour Christ saith not so For this had beene to giue tyrannicall power ouer mens soules and consciences into the hands of the Church which our Sauiour neuer did Now if wee should graunt you that hearing of the Church in this place might be extended to matter of Doctrine if by like proportion you suppose that the determination of the Church is agreeable to the Scriptures and that the Church by the Scriptures approoueth their determination to the consciences of the faithfull as we then graunt you that we may not disobey so this will helpe your cause nothing at all who will not submit the sentence of generall Councels to be tried by the Scriptures but maketh it superior to the Scriptures and consequently Lord ouer mens consciences which as the Apostle scrbiddeth to 1. Pet. 5. 1. the elders of the Church in all seuerall Churches so doth he also to the elders assembled in agenerall Councell For in the Councell of the Apostles at Ierusalem by the mouth of Iames both Peter and the rest lay for the foundation of their Act. 15. 15. sentence the words of Scripture To thu agree the wordes of the Prophets Your second reason is Then should also â—ell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Let vs see this reason also in forme Hell gates preuaile against euerie one that may erre But hell gates preuaile not against the Church Therefore the Church may not erre First you conclude not the question Which is not whether the Church may erre but whether generall Councels may erre But neither are generall Councels so large as the onely visible Church being but speciall members assembled out of the whole whose errour may not be imputed no not to the whole visible Church neither is the visible Church the whole Church no not the whole militant Church and therefore although the gates of hell cannot preuaile against the Church yet they may preuaile against generall Councels Secondly the Church may erre and yet hell gates not preuaile against it For the Proposition of the former syllogisme containing your reason is not true The gates of hell doe not preuaile against euery one that erreth Peter erred both in matter of fact and in matter of faith His errors in matter of fact are knowen to be many and not denied by you His error in matter of faith was in iudging it vnlawfull to eate of things common yet did not the gates of hell Act. 10 14. preuaile against him Thirdly the gates of hell not preuailing against the whole militant Church may yet preuaile against the visible parts of this Church and in some age or ages It followeth not therefore that if the gates of hell preuaile against the visible Churches of some age that therefore they doe preuaile against the whole militant Church Where be the famous Churches of Achain of Galatia of Macedonia nay what a handfull is the remnant of the Church now in a corner of Europe principally knowen by the name of the Church to the large circuit of the Church both in the Apostles time and after spread ouer the whole world Will you say the gates of hell haue preuailed against the Church because they haue preuailed against some Churches so many so famous in some age or ages The Church of Christ may be more and lesse occumenicall and yet the Church of Christ still against which the gates of hell neither haue nor euer shall preuaile and yet may preuaile against the Churches of Achaia Galatia Macedonia and many others yea against the once famous Church of Rome as they haue done so that the faithfull citie may become an harlot Wherefore begin Isa 1. 21. once to be ashamed of this sophistrie The gates of hell cannot prenaile against the Church of Christ Therfore not against a generall Councell which is but some of the many churches of one
can all the Doctors Fathers or Councels in the world beget the true vnderstanding of the Scripture in any one mans heart It is the worke of the heauenly teacher that is the holy Ghost which Augustine ingeniously confesseth Sonus verborum nostrorum Tract 3. in Ioan. epist aures percutit magister intus est c. The sound of our words beateth the eares the minister is vvithin Thinke not that any man doth learne any thing of man We may admonish by the noise of our voice if there be not to teach within our noise is in vaine Will you knovv it indeed brethren Haue ye not all heard this Sermon How manie will depart hence vntaught For my part I haue spoken to all but to whom that annointing speaketh not within whom the holy Ghost teacheth not within they depart vntaught Teachings that are outward are some helpes and admonitions He hath his chaire in heauen that teacheth the hearts Thus farre Augustine Neither do we send men to any other spirit then that which teacheth in the Scriptures for euen in hearing and reading of the scriptures the spirit createth in our harts the true vnderstanding of them as our Sauiour interpreting the Scriptures to his disciples withall opened their hearts to vnderstand them and on the Sabbaoth day opening Luk. 24. 32. 44. 45. the prophecie of Esay withall he opened their hearts that they vvondered at the gracious vvords that proceeded out of his mouth And Philip began at that Scripture which the Eunuch Luk. 4. 22. Act. 8. was reading and preached to him Iesus when the holy Ghost opened his heart to beleeue and when Paul spake Lydiaes heart was opened This spirit which is the spirit of Act. 16. 14. wisedome is also the spirit of adoption and therefore as all the sonnes of God to whom appertaineth the adoption haue receiued also the spirit of adoption and he that hath not the spirit of Christ is none of his so all that are wise vnto Rom. 8. 9. Ioh. 20. 31. Eph. 1. 17. 18. saluation all that doe knowe that Iesus is that Christ the Sonne of God and by beleeuing haue life through his name haue likewise receiued the spirit of wisedome and reuelation to inlighten the eyes of their vnderstanding to knowe the things that are giuen them of God and vvhat that hope is of his calling and vvhat the riches of his glorious inheritance is in the Saints Neither is the whole Scripture so obscure as you would beare men in hand I haue before shewed you the confession of Augustine In those words which are euidentlie set downe in De doctr Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Epist 3. the Scriptures are found all those things which conteine faith and maners of life And in another place Those things which the Scripture euidentlie conteineth as a familiar friend it speaketh without obscuritie to the heart of learned and vnlearned The spirit of God not onely prouiding the Scriptures but also that the reader should meete with the true meaning of them De doctr Chr. lib. 3. cap. 27. as Augustine saith Yea but say you when euerie one must examine by the touchstone of Scripture what other do teach and so admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not agreeable with the word of God if this be not a priuat interpretation there can be none found in the world Feare you not thus to open your mouth against heauen and to call that interpretation which is grounded on the Scriptures a priuate interpretation When our Sauiour referred the Iewes to seeke witnes of himself by searching the scriptures did he referre them to a priuate interpretation when the men of Beraea searched the Scriptures vvhether those things that Paul spake vvere so or no. Did they follow a priuate interpretation By this which you call priuate interpretation Augustine exhorteth to search out the meaning of the Scriptures that for the illustrating of the more obscure De doctr Chr. lib 2. cap. 97. speaches examples be taken from the more manifest and some testimonies of certaine senses take away the doubt of the vncertaine In obscure places where the sense cannot be found by conference with other plainer places of scripture Augustine admits to giue reason to the sense we bring but saieth he This custome is dangerous it is more safe to vvalke by the diuine scriptures De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 27. vvhich standing in translate vvords when vve vvill search either let such sense be made of it as hath no coÌ„trouersie or of it haue let it be determined by the same Scripture vvheresoeuer the witnesses thereof can be found and applied Neither is this to make euery priuate vnlearned artificer iudge ouer the Scriptures but to set all both learned and vnlearned to schoole to the Scriptures from whence as Augustine saith before alleaged vve haue learned to knovv Christ and to knovv the church of Christ. But if we follow Popish guides we must learne to knowe the scriptures for the sense of the scripture is the scripture yea and Christ himselfe by the tradition of the Church and receiue such a sense of scriptures and such a Christ as Fathers and Councels by their authority shall deliuer vnto vs not hauing left vnto vs any power to trie the spirits by the Scripture the infallible touchstone of all spirits by which both Christ and his Apostles were content to Iohn 5. 39. Galat. â— 8. be tryed If this be not a priuate interpretation there can be none found in the world PAPIST To assure vs this is Canonical scripture and which is not there is no other way but to cleane vnto the authoritie of Gods Church Therefore S. Austen saieth I would not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of Gods church did not mone me And the Protestants Contr. epist. fund cap. 4. caÌ„not in this question euer giue coÌ„tent either to themselues or other if they take any other course For where do they finde in the whole Bible that S. Iames his Epistle for example is Canonical scripture is it not well knowen that Luther did reiect it But faine would I know how they can according to their principle which is to beleeue nothing but scripture proue this point against Luther out of the scripture most certaine it is they cannot and that which we say of S. Iames his Epistle may be said of any other part of the Bible if one be disposed to deny it Seeing then that there is equall danger of saluation in expounding the scriptures conâ—rarie to the true senseintended by the holy Ghost as there is in refusing that for Scripture which vvas indâ—ed by the holy Ghost vvhat man of reason can denie but that if the church doth tell vvhich is the scripture and vvhich is not that the same Church is likevvise to tell vs vvhich is the true sense of the scripture which is not We therefore that interprete them as the church teach vs haue the
scriptures indeede and the Protestants that do othervvise be destitute of the true sense of the vvord of God PROTESTANT The summe of this Argument is this Whatsoeuer meanes wee haue to knowe the Canonitall Scriptures the same we haue to know the true sense of them For there is equali danger in wrong expounding Scriptures and refusing them But there is no meanes to know the Canonicall Scriptures but by â—â—e authoritie of the Church For no man can prooue against Luther that Saint Iames his Epistle is Canonicall but by the authoritie of the Church and Austen Jaith I would not beleeue c. Therefore there is no meanes to know the true sense of the scriptures but by the anthority of the Church First then as before hath bin noted Augustine was much uerseene in his bookes De Doctr. Christ among so many meanes as he theresets downe to search find out the true sense of Scriptures to forget the authority of the Church which you will now haue to be the onely meanes Secondly in a sense it is true that the authority of Gods Church is a meanes to know both the Canonicall Scripture and the true sense thereof The Church of God doth neither giue being or authority to the Scriptures nor sense to the Scriptures but being taught of God in both giues witnesse of both to her owne children and euen to those that are without and by the ministrie and meanes of her testimonie they to whom the Scriptures were before vnknown begin to receiue them and they that haue receiued them attaine to the sense of them by that gift of interpretation which God hath giuen to his Church yet doth not Gods true Church set vp her authority in mens consciences to binde them without a better Teacher and of greater authority to receiue any thing at her handes for Scripture or to rest in her interpretation of Scriptures without tryall As Philip hauing testified to Nathanael We haue founde him of whom Moses did write and the Prophnts Iesus the sonne of Ioseph when Nathanael made doubt because he was of Nazareth doth not inforce his owne authority but bids him come see so the Church testifying of the Canonical scriptures of the true sense of them bids all men come and see Ioh. 1. 46. that is out of the Scriptures inspired of God by the teaching of the spirit to know the maiestie and authority of them after they haue beleeued the scriptures to be the vndoubtted word of God in them to search the true meaning of theÌ„ as Augustine teacheth both as he is before alleaged and in the very booke by you quoted for shewing how the Manichees teach how the Church teacheth thus he writeth Whatthinke you we must iudge or do but to forsake theÌ„ who inuite Contr. epist Fun. cap. 14. vs to know things certaine and after coÌ„mand vs to beleeue thinges vncertaine the very right description of the Popish church And follow theÌ„ who inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to looke into that when we are waxen stronger in faith we may attaine to vnderstand that which we beleeue novv not men but God inwardly strengthning and enlightning our minde Wherby that former sentence of Augustine so commonly alleaged by the Papists receiues plaine interpretation Ego non crederem c. Euery word almost in the sentence hauing a speciall signification to shew that he onely acknowledgeth the churches testimony in the beginning of his conuersion to haue beene the meanes to moue him to thinke well of the scriptures Ego that is I being a Manichee hauing not yet searched the scriptures nor hauing knowen the maiesty of the Gospell Non crederâ—m that is would not haue giuen any regard vnto nor haue beene tractable to learne as the whole booke De vtilit ate credends ad Honor aâ—uÌ„ doth shew namely cap. 9. For faith he true religion vnlesse those things De vtil creden ad ionorat cap. 15. be beleeued which if a man behaue himselfe well and be worthie he may aftervvard attaine to vnderstand vvithout some great commande of authoritie can by no meanes bee vvell entred into For as he saieth in the same booke betweene mans foolishnes and the most sincere truth of God Mans vvisedome is set as a middle thing for a vvise man is to follovve God a foolissh man is to follovv a vvise man yet as Augustine there sayeth not to put his trust in men but onely in the sonne of God the sincere eternall vnchangeable wisdome of God whereunto onely we ought to sticke who for our sakes namely to become our Teacher vouch safed to take vpon him mans nature Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 5. This most sincere wisedome Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 4. he settech in the first ranke though hauing to deale with a Manichee hee saieth he will omit to speake of it as that which holdes him without any doubting in the bosome of the Catholike church whereas in all his other motiues hee onely meaneth to shew that euen only in theÌ„ he hath better hould then the Manichees haue for their heresie For otherwise he preferreth the vndoubted proofes of scripture before the authority of the catholike Church If peraduenture saith he you can finde any thing in the Gospell verie plaine for Manichees Apostleship you shall vveaken vnto me the authoritie of the Catholikes and before if so manifest truth be shovved that Cap. 4. it cannot come into doubt it ought to bee preferred before all those things by vvhich I am held in the Catholike church 3. Catholice Ecclesiae meanes hee the Catholike church of all times or rather the Catholike church of the first times who hauing receiued the Scriptures by Apostolicall testimonie deliuered them to their posterity At whose hand Augustine receiued them not vpon their onely testimony but vpon the records of the Catholike Church of the first times which the church in his time had to shewe for the Canonicall and vndoubted Scriptures What his meaning is in this behalfe let Augustine himselfe declare Beleeue saith he this booke to be Matthewes which from that time wherein Matthew himselfe liued in the flesh by course of Contr. Faustrâ— Manich. lib. 28. cap. 2. Lib. 33. cap. 9 time not interrupted the Church through certaine succession of continuance hath brought along vnto this time And against the same heretick hee vseth a very apt comparison to this purpose there haue many bookes come forth vnder the name and title of secular authors which were neuer theirs as for example many bookes vnder the name of Hippocrates that were not his How are these descried Therefore are they refused saith Augustine because either they did not agree to those writings which were manifestly knowen to be theirs or were not acknowledged in the time wherein they wrote nor were commended to posteritie by themselues or those that were most familiar with them and specially of Hippocrates his bastard
bookes when being compared to those which were trulie knowen to be Hippocrates his owne they were iudged to be vnlike and because they were not knowen to be trulie his at the same time when the rest of his writings came to be knowne So the ecclesiasticall writings of men are no otherwise knowen whose they were but because in the times wherein euerie one wrote them he acquainted and published them to whom he could and from thence by a continued knowledge from one to another and farther confirmed they cap. 9. came to their posteritie euen to our times In like maner he concludes of the holy Scriptures If you will follow the authoritie of the Scriptures which ought to be preferred before all other follow that which from the times of the verie presence of Christ by the dispensations of the Apostles hauing beene kept throughout the whole world came commended and famouslie knowen to our times By all which it is euident that Augustine meant not to make the Catholike Church of his time the author of his beleefe touching the Canonical Scriptures but the Catholike Church of the first times who came neerest to the writing and deliuerie of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles and the Apostolike men that wrote them for whose testimonie and commendations sake the Church succeeding is also beleeued What is this to the supposed Catholike church of our daies by which you meane the Popes kingdome when euen the true Catholike church of later times neither hath nor chalengeth to her selfe any credit in this matter but as she can porduce the testimonie of the Catholike church in the first times Lastly Augustine there saith Nisi me commoueret Ecclesiae authoritas He only ascribeth to the Churches authoritie that it is a motiue and the first motiue to induce an vnbeleeuing man to thinke well of the Scriptures but hee resteth not in this motiue Hauing thus begun he proceedeth after in searching the Scripture to finde by what spirit they were written and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit as the vndoubted word of God to embrace them not man now but God himselfe inwardlie strengthening and enlightening his â—inde as he is before alleadged What makes all this for the authoritie of the Popish falsly called Catholike church to lead mens consciences into captiuitie by her interpretations or determinations either of the Canonicall Scriptures or of their sense Nay what makes this for such authoritie as vnder the Churches title you would claime to depriue Christians of any better assurance either touching the Scriptures or their sense then it receiued from the authoritie of the Church that is of men no lesse subiect to errourthen themselues But you would faine knowe how the Protestants that beleeue nothing but Scripture can by Scripture prooue against Luther that S. Iames his Epistle is Canonicall Scripture Euen in like manner as wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonicall Scripture For thinke you that that Spirit by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures doth not still breath in the same Scriptures by meanes of which Spirit the word of God Hebr. 4. 12. liueth and is mightie in operation and by that speciall vertue differeth from humane writings yea euen those that are written of Scripture matters Either then you must diuide the Spirit from the Scriptures when Gods children reade it which you cannot doe without dishonour to the Scriptures or you must needes confesse that out of the Scriptures inspired of God Gods children doe sufficiently prooue vnto their owne consciences and against all gaine-sayers that the whole Scripture and euery part thereof is Canonicall that 1 Cor. 2. 4. is a souereigne rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and maners For as the Apostles preaching so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God hath in it selfe plaine euidence of the spirit and of power that our faith should not be in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Thus out of S. Pauls Epistles wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles to be Canonicall And out of S. Iames his Epistle wee can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall and generally the whole Scripture prooues it selfe to be Canonicall and from it selfe the Church receiueth receiueth witnesse of it selfe If you be ignorant of this it is because you haue not receiued of the annointing of that Spirit by whom the Scriptures were inspired And now cease any longer to disport your selfe with this carnall question out of what Scripture the Protestants can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall The sheepe of Christ doe knowe the shepheards voice and they knowe it not by report but by it selfe they discerne it To conclude because there is danger in expounding the Scriptures contrarie to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost albeit not equall danger as in refusing the holy Scripture indited by the holy Ghost as Augustine insinuateth Confess lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater that is the approbation of Canonicall Scriptures wee dare not remit all to mens voices though they be the Church so in that wherein errours is lesse dangerous yet dangerous too that is in determining the true sense of Scriptures we dare not build our faith vpon the wisedome of men because as hath beene alleadged out of Augustne we haue learned of our Redeemer in â—â—llo hoâ—ike spem pouere to put no trust in any man but onely in the plaine euidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures which so long as we doe with faithfull prayer and humble submission to his teaching according to the promise they shall be all taught of God weare assured to be led into all truth Isa 54. 13. Iohn 6. 45. necessary to saluation which security the Papists that rest in mens authority can neuer haue PAPIST Seauenthly wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example to make the people beleeue that images are vnlawfull in Tyndals translation where Idols be forbidden vsually the word Image is placed in steed thereof and therefore in S. Iohn we find it thus traÌ„slated Babes keep your selues froÌ„ images 1. Ioh. â— 21. And for triall we will appeale to their later Bibles printed by Christopher Barker for there we read thus Little children keepe your selues from Idols PROTESTANT Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long agoe by Doctor Fulke against Martine and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds both of worthy and blessed memorie first it is so plain that the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth in the proprietie of the word signifie an image that Gregorie Martine neither can nor doth denie it Secondly as vse hath restrained the name Idoll from the generall signification to note onely wicked images and such as are abused to Gods dishonour so is it well knowen that both in vulgar and popular vse and also in the generall vnderstanding
such like women as followed our Sauiour Christ and ministred vnto him and his of their substance For what power or authoritie Luk. 8. 3. had the Apostles to leade about such women after them but to leade about a wife they had power Besides the purpose of the Apostle is to shew that himselfe and Barnabas had right to put the Church to more charge by leading such a one about with them but if he had meant such women as following them in their iourneies ministred vnto them of their substance to haue such in their company had beene an ease and no charge to the Church the contrarie whereof the Apostle plainely expresseth in giuing reason why he and Barnabas might haue done so Who goeth a warfare at any time of his owne cost c. If vve haue sowen vnto you Verse 33. spirituall things is it a great matter if we reape your carnall The Church therefore of their carnal substance must haue borne the charge of such a sister lead about and therfore no doubt Math. 8. 14. the Apostle meant a wife who going with her husband there could be nothing said against it and for her husbands sake the Church must also prouide for her To which charge because the Apostle put them not when hee might haue done it hee hath therefore the more to say in his owne defence Fourthly the Scripture recording of Peter that hee was maried and auncient writers that other of the Apostles and Disciples were maried namely Ambrose in 2. Cor. 11. All the Apostles excepting Iohn and Paul had vvines and Eusebius hâ—st Eccles lib. 30. cap. 30. out of Clemens Alexandrinus of Peter Philip and as he saith Paul the Apostles words directly point at that liberty in them in the words as well as other Apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas And verie plainly out of the report that Eusebius maketh out of Clemens euery maÌ„ may see that in those times the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken for a wife Paul saith hee in a certaine Epistle maketh mention of his wife whom hee therefore did not lead about with him that more easily and freelie he might performe his ministerie Howbeit if Paul were vnmaried yet is it no corruption so to translate his words for as much as hee had that libertie though he vsed it not Lastly you knowe that the Scripture saith Mariage is honourable amongst all men and the bed vndefiled What more Heb. 13. 4. cleare and full allowance can there be that Priests may lawfully marie except you will say that priesthood depriueth them of the honour of Gods ordinance which he hath sanctified to all men Hauing generall and speciall warrant for Priests mariage besides the place in question what need we force it you rather haue forced single life vpon Gods Ministers against his manifest word PAPIST If theÌ„ they be learned malition flie corrupt the text who wil trust them with the interpretation as for vnlearned Protestants how can they gather a true sense out of a corrupted sentence can a streight line be drawen by a crooked Rule PROTESTANT Nay rather if the Popish Rabbies haue first set vp many a crooked practise both in doctrine and Gods worship and then will haue the line of interpretotion drawen by the crooked rule of Popish practise secundum currentem Ecclesiae sensum Who will trust them to be interpreters of scriptures who are conspired to maintaine whatsoeuer their Synagogue hath corruptly practised For how can a streight line be drawen by a crooked rule or how can the vnlearned Papists haue any meanes to trie the true interpretatioÌ„ of scriptures euen in matters necessarie to saluation who must of necessity sel their soules into the hands of Popish Hucksters to receiue whatsoeuer sense of scriptures they thrust vpon them and aboue all must receiue Popish practise as their Creede and as the practise changeth so must the sense of Scriptures change and be one to day another to morrowe one this yeare another the next according to Cusanus his rule Intellectus currit cumpraxi The vnderstanding of the scriptures runneth with the practise which practise interpreteth the Nicol. Cusan de author eccles Conc. Sup. et cont scriptu scripture at one time after one sort at another time after another sort This is the constancie of Popish faith whereof Papists boast so much PAPIST Out of the premisses we may learne the cause why we haue such vnity in faith to be for that we acknowledge an infallible Iudge for the expounding of the Scriptures and though in other thinges wee haue dissention as fell out likewise betwixt Saint Paul and Barnabas and no time hath been free from such scandals yet we keep all one and the same Catholike faith through the world and the cause why the Protestants haue such mortal dissention in matters of faith without all hope of agreement is for that they acknowledge 1 Ioh. 4. 1. not any infallible and certaine Iudge for the interpretation of the scriptures For they will be tried by nothing but by the Scripture and if we presse them that the scriptures may be falsly expounded theÌ„ they repaire to the spirit and if we tell theÌ„ of Iohn that we must not beleeue euery spirit then for trial of the spirit back againe they post to the scripture and so if they be vrged on forward they runne round froÌ„ the scripture to the spirit froÌ„ the spirit to the scripture world without end And so whilest their spirits agree not togeither we see them about manie articles of faith as about the descending of Christ into hell about the lawfulnesse of Archbishops and Bishops like the campe of the Madianites to haue turned their weapons to mutuall destruction and to lie lugging together Iudges 7. by the eares in endlesse brawles and contentions PROTESTANT If it were true that you boast of that you haue such vnity of your Popish faith yet could you from such vnity no better proue the truth of your Religion then from the consent of the Israelites erecting the calfe in the wildernes or from the consent of the Iewish Synagogue against our Sauiour Christ crying Crucific him crucifie him or from the consent of all Israel in the daies of Achab and Iezabel being confederate against Elias alone you can prooue that the Calfe was the God that brought the people out of the land of Egypt or that Baal was the true God or that our Sauiour Christ was a deceiuer as the high Priestes termed him Of such vnity God hath forewarned vs to take heede by the Prophet Esay Say ye not a confederacie to all them to whom this people saieth a confederacie but rather to the law and to the testimonie Esa 8. 12. vers 20. ver 9 against which though the people be gathered together in beapes they shall be broken in peeces and though they take counsell together yet it shall bee brought to nought though they pronounce
vers 10 a decree it shall not stand The Kings of the earth stand vp and the rulers take councell together against the Lord and against Psal 2. 2. his Christ Not onely Tyrants without the Church but euen within the Site of the church those that springing out of the Church vsurpe tyranny ouer the Church and against the Lord Christ do make their decrees with a common consent that if any man confesse Christ he shall be cast out of the Synagogue Ioh. 9. 22. and hauing obtained power to sitt in mens consciences oppresse them by pretense of sacred authority to make rules of faith as high Priests and Pharisees deale with their officers sent to apprehend Christ Doth any of the rulers Ioh. 7. 48 ver 49 or of the Pharisees say they beleeue in him They make shew I grant to square their faith by the law but with great craft they arrogate to themselues that they onelie knowe the Lawe This people say they which know not the law are accursed If any man teach or beleeue otherwise then pleaseth theÌ„ forsooth they know not the Lawe These Rabbies chalenge onely to themselues that they only haue the forme of knowledge and truth in the lawe that they must be the guides of the blinde forsooth they only haue eies all other are blinde This is your Popish vnity these be your infallible Iudges for the expouÌ„ding of the scriptures you first deuise a forme of faith most seruiceable to your idle bellies your Bishops Miters your Cardinals hattes your Popes triple Crowne theÌ„ you cospire vpon a prescription to haue in your hands the onely commande of scriptures and their sense and exposition and for preseruation of this your tyranny and to secure the hope of your conspiracie you reduce all to the Popes Brest and Chaire who is not without the Diuels wisedome not to be diuided against himselfe And so how fallible soeuer your Iudge be to be deceiued himself and to deceiue others that he before them and they after him may tumble downe into the bottomlesse pitte of hell by hy heapes yet you are sure he will neuer faile you Now surely this is a blessed vnity for which you are so much beholding to your infallible Iudge But is it true that you boast of that by reason you acknowledge one infallible Iudge for the expounding of the scriptures you keepe all one and the same Catholike throughout the world I will not spend time in ripping vp the infinite dissentions that are among your schoole Tribes least you shist off and say that their dislentions were in other things and not in matters of faith The true doctrine of originall sinne is a matter of Faith not onely in those remote points 1. That there is originall sinne 2. That by propagation it is spreade ouer all mankinde from Adam 3. That the effectes thereof are all the calamities which continually waite vpon mans life Which are the pointes whereof as being certaine Defen fid Trid. lib. 50. cleere the Church as Andradius saith hath giuen her sentence Quod vniuerso mortalium generi naturae necessitate insidet cum quo omnes illas calamitates hausimus quibus hominum vit a continenter premitur That by necessitie of nature it cleaueth to all mankinde wherewithall we haue drawen all those calamities wherewith mans life is continually pressed But chiefly in discerning and defining what originall sin is and wherein it doth consist To shew you one Catholike faith in this point I will not reckon vp the sundrie opinions of originall sinne whereof your selues as yet could neuer agree I will take the confession of the Councell of Trent For thus they say Inter Sess 5. decret 1. pluriâ—a mala quibus ecclesia his nostris temporibus perturbatur eriam de peccato originali eiusque remedio non solum vetera sedetiam noua dissidia excitanitâ—i Among many euils wherewith the Church of God in these our times is troubled the Diuel hath raised vp not only old but new dissentioÌ„s about originall sin and the remedie thereof Was your Church destitute of such an infallible Iudge for the expounding of scriptures vntill the late Councell of Trent if it were your infallible Iudge is very young yet you see for all your infallible Iudge both of old and vntill and in the times of that Councell your Church was troubled with many dissentions both about originall sinne and the remedie thereof which I trowe you will not deny to be points of the Catholike faith Andradius after this Councell confesseth no lesse Ita peccati huius immanissioni natura Defens fid Trid. lib. 5. latet atrocissimi Syderis omnia populantis ratio est innoluta vt nulla in re sit doctorum hominum mator varietas coÌ„certatio i. The nature of this most monstrous haynous sin that makes hauocke of all is so intricate that about no point there is greater varietie and contention among learned men Whereunto he ioyneth another question no lesse controuerted as he saieth among your excellent wits to wit how originall sinne which he calleth TetruÌ„ immane facinus a foule and monstrous wickednesse could cleaue vnto little children that scarcely liued to see the light nor euer had anie power to will but perhaps the Councell of Trent made an end of these dissensions and so expounded the Scriptures that now you haue but one and the same Catholike faith throughout all the worlde in this point No verily if Andradius were priuie to the Councels meaning For he affirmeth that the controuersie which the auncients had about the true definition thereof hath not yet bin vllius Concilij authoritate sedata appeased by the authoritie of no Councel therfore free for euery man to hold what opinion he likes best of this controuersie not sufficiently inlightened by the Church Wherfore except your Catholike faith in this point be quot capita tot seÌ„sus how many heads so many opinioÌ„s so that your infinit dissent may be allowed for coÌ„sent and your many and discording opinions may goe for one and the same Catholike faith in this great point of faith you haue either no faith or a faith of many fashions variable according to the forge it comes out of In this fundamental principle the discouerie I meane of originall sinne to be as the Apostle calleth it the flesh vvherein dwelleth no good Rom. 7. 18. verse 20. thing that sinne that dwelleth in vs vvherewith vve are so yoaked that it is alwaies present with vs a lawe in our members rebelling against the lawe of the minde and leading vs captiue to the verse 21. lawe of sinne that is in our members Which vntill it be knowen and verse 23. discerned euen concupiscence condemned in the verse 7. lawe is not knowen to be sinne when it is knowen it makes vs crie out and bewaile our misery and to confesse with Dauid vers 24. Beholde I was borne in iniquitie
and in sin hath my mother conceiued me it conuinceth that all the frame of the thoughts of Psal 51. 5. mans heart is onely euill continuallie that in vs that is in our flesh dwelleth no good thing it prooues vs to be dead in trespasses and sinnes and therefore to be the children of wrath Whereby we are stripped of all conceit of free will of all presumption Gen. 6. 5. of our owne righteousnes and is the most vniuersal schoolmaister to lead all men vnto Christ In this so high a principle of faith I say your Church and his children hauing either no faith at all or a faith of many colours and manie Eph. 2. 1. 3. shapes notwithstanding your infallible iudge boast no longer of your one and the same Cutholike faith in all the world Your vaine and foolish contumelie which you cast vpon the Protestants that for triall of the scriptures they repaire to the spirit and for triall of the spirit post backe againe to the scripâ—â—res and sorunne round from the Scriptures to the Spirit and from the Spirit to the Scriptures world without end bewraies in you great ignorance of our doctrine For we diuide not the Spirit from the Scriptures nor the Scriptures from the Spirit that we should be faine to runne or go from the one to the other onely in the Scriptures we heare or learne of the Spirit whatsoeuer we know in the Scriptures we know it by the teaching of Gods Spirit that speaketh in them whatsoeuer we learne of the Spirit we learne it by and out of the Scriptures when we repaire to the Sriptures we repaire to the Spirit and when we go to enquire of the Spirit we go to the Scriptures If the God of this worlde had not blinded your eies that the light of this truth cannot shine vnto you you would neuer haue vpbraided vs with posting to and fro and running round But because you tell vs of roundes I pray you see what roundes your selires make in a matter of Faith of greatest consequence in all your Religion you giue out this conclusion as an article Subesse roâ—â—no Poâ—tifici omni creaturae est Extr. com de Ma. ior c. obed â—nam Sactam de necessitate salutis To be subiect to the Pope of Roâ—â—e is nâ—cessaerie to saluation for euerie creature we require you to proue it you alleage that the Pope is the heade of the vniuersal Church we yet aske for proofe you bring vs Tues Peirus super hane petraÌ„ c. Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wil build my Church tibi dabo claues to thee I wil giue the keies of the kingdome of heauen pasce oues me as feed my sheep feed my lambes We tell you Peter is one stone in the building but no rock or if you will needes haue a rocke his confession or Christ whom heconfessed is the rocke or foundation whereon the Church is builded we tell you the keies were giuen to Peter not alone but to the rest of the Apostles and hee with them commanded to feede sheepe and lambes and further whatsoeuer was giuen to Peter extendeth not to the Pope who is not Peter you say that Peter receiued those honours for himselfe and his successors and that the Church is built vpon him and them as a rocke and that he for himselfe his successors receiued the keies and left them to the Pope of Rome who now is Shepheard ouer sheepe and lambes all this you will proue by the scriptures we râ—â—uire you to proue that the Scriptures haue this sense you fetch your proofe from the Fathers we bring the Fathers as cleerly yea more cleerely for our interpretation then you can for Concil Nicen. Conat Afric yours you thrust on forward to the CouÌ„cels we bring you the authority of Councels to make the Pope no more theÌ„ a peere among other Patriarkes yea to cutte him off from medling out of his Dioces now you post to Councels confirmed by the heade that is the Pope whom either with Conncels or without you make your only infallible Iudge Are you now where you began do you thus daunce in a rounde and tell vs of roundes The Pope is head of the vniuersall Church Who saith so the Scriptures who shall interpret the Scriptures the Fathers Fathers not agreeing who shall iudge betweene them Councels Councels agree not who then shall strike the stroke the Pope And so the Pope is heade of the Church because the Pope will be so With these rounds you haue made giddie and brai nesicke innumerable poore soules God in his mercie stablish their hearts with grace that their eies may see the pitte before they fall into it Now I pray you what be those matters of Faith wherein the Protestants haue such mortall dissention without any hope of agreement they are many you say reckon them that we see how many they be The descending of Christ into hell and the lawfulnes of Archbishops and Bishops Is the question about Archbishops Bishops a matter of faith among Papists it may well be so who hold the Popes supremacy for the first and chiefe yea in effect for all the articles of their faith but surely Protestants holde it onely for a matter of order appertaining to the externall gouernement of the Church which is farre from a matter of faith your many matters of faith then are come to but one and that such a one as in ancient times was no article of faith at all in your Romane Creede no nor yet receiued in the East Churches In. expos Symboli as Ruffinus affirmeth Sciâ—nauÌ„ est quod in Ecclesiae Romana Symbolo non habetur additum We must know that it is not found added in the Creede of the Romane Church neither is the canse receiued among the East Churches And being receiued there Epist 99. was little certainty of the sense and meaning of it Ruffinus takes it to be all one with Sepultus est he was buried Augustine De Genes ad Lit. lib. 12. cap. as is afore shewed denies that Abrahams bosome is any part of holl and else where confesseth that neuer yet found that it is called hell where the soules of the righteous do rest And so little light can be founde of any such conceite as Papists De Christi anima lib. 4. cap. 5. haue of Christs descending into hell that Bellarmine saith Non est necessaria presentia animae Christi c. The presence of Christs soule to inlighten the Fathers with the diuine vision of him is not necessarie yet it seemed to be of congruitio that it should be present while that was in doing He makes it not of necessity but of congruity and that but in seeming neither this is as touching the sense but a weake matter of faith to obiect vnto vs that we dissent about it For we dissent not about the words of the article but receiue it we are
also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
Originals and binde to a corrupt translation as Authonâ—â—cal You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching and teaching you haue them not The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such as may stand with your Popish practise which is the priuie rule of your interpretation and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof and the rule of faith which Augustine so much commendeth you neither haue nor wil hade nor suffer others to haue if you may let it and so your interpretation is priuate as either being the Popes or proceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen partly in a false Church which the longer it continueth the worse You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side when indeede they are against you and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others nor their true sense and interpretation but onely of your owne making your Popish faith though it be olde in it selfe yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers our Sauiour Christ the Apostles and Prophets the daies thereof haue been but few and euill and therefore it is not the olde Catholike Apostolike faith whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed PAPIST A short Addition Beleeue assuredly and holde for certaine that no Heretike and Schismatike that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe how great almes so-euer hee giue yea or shed his bloud for Christes name can possibly be saued For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause deceiuing the simple suffer much but where no true faith is there is no iustice because the iust liueth by faith so it is also of Schismatikes because where charitie is not no iustice can be there which of they had they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie may goe to heauen though they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor be members of his true Church For as most certaine it is that none which beleeue not all the articles of the Catholike faith can be saued though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well for without faith it is as Paul saith vnpossible to please God And S. Athanasius telleth vs that whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate without doubt he shall perish for euer so no lesse certaine it is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to that faith and so abstaine from communicating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments we cannot be saued For hee that shall denie Christ before men Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen as himselfe saith And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience according to the law when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist as himselfe willeth vs And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ of an inward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes and keepe their conscience to themselues This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much and feare persecution But let such thinke of this saying of our Sauiour Feare ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soule but rather feare him that can destroy both body soule into hel and let them imitate noble Eleazarus Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death then to dissemble in the cause of religion and do that with the scandal of others which of it selfe was no sinne at all PROTESTANT Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is oneâ—â— thus much Formissimè tene nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum siue schismaticum in nomine patris filij spiritus sancti baptizatum si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit nullatenus posse saluari that is Firmly beleeue by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost how great almes soeuer he do yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church by no meanes can be saued This sentence though not word for word yet in effect you rehearse but you ad therunto more words whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustines words ended The rest is a truth but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued Secondly that if men beleeue neuer so well yet if they liue not according to the faith and so absteine from communicating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they cannot be saued and so proceede on to condemne those that outwardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes and keepe their consciences to themselues All which may with no gaine to you be yeelded it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood to witte Catholike Church Catholike Faith and Heretikes or Schismatikes For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church nor the Popish Faith the Catholike Faith nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie or do depart from Popish communion then what gaine you by this whole addition But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke that no sooner they heare Catholike Church or Catholike Faith but by and by they thinke of Popish Church and Popish Faith betweene which there is no lesse difference then betweene light and darknes And againe when they heare of Herâ—tikes they presently
thinke of Protestants whereas indeed if they had eyes to discerne of heresie or an Heretike they would rather applie it to Papistes But I heartily wish all blinded Papistes aduisedly to consider of the first conclusion which you draw out of Augustines words That although men liue and die neuer so vertuously yet except they beleeue the Catholike faith and be members of the true church they cannot be saued The name of good workes is amiable to all well minded men and by pretense of great zeale for good workes your faction hath crept into the mindes of many that in great ignorance and simplicity had a good meaning Howbeit by good workes you chiefly meane those workes that bring some gaine vnto your selues otherwise tollerating and dispensing with the breach of Gods commandements in any point whereby your Popish kingdome takes no harme or is not hindred Such therefore as haue blindly followed you out of an oppinion that you are the onely patrone of good workes I wish to observe that by your owne confession though a man liue or die neuer so well yet he cannot be saued except he hold the Catholike Faith be a member of the true church because without faith he cannot please God Doth it not then behoue all men to aduise with themselues well how they may know the Catholike Faith the true Church There were that sayed they were Iewes were the Synagogue of Sathan The Donatists claimed vnto themselues Apoc. 39. the title of Catholike Church and Catholike Faith which other Heretikes both haue done may do as well as they Let them not therefore thinke or beleeue that the Popish Church and faith is Catholike because Papists say so but let them examine your Church and Faith whether it be Catholike or no which onely by the Scriptures they shall be able infallibly to discerne In the Scriptures saith Augustine to the Donatistes we haue learned Christ and in the Scriptures Epist 166. we haue learned the Church These Scriptures we haue coÌ„mon to vs both why do wee not in them reteine in common both Christ and the Church in the end of the same Epistle Behold the scriptures are common to vs both Behold where we haue knowen Christ Behold where we haue knowen the Church This learned and godly Father when both sides challenge to themselues that they are the Catholike Church that they haue the faith of Christ calles them to the trial of scriptures as the surest meanes to know both Christ and the Church by By this rule if they shall be tried that make a spoyle of many soules vnder the colour of Catholike Church and Catholike Faith they shall be found to be deceiuers and no better then the Synagogue of Sathan Wherefore let the ignorant and seduced Papistes vnto their zeale of good workes labour to ioyne a right iudgement in matters of faith from point to point in all those Articles which Athanasius affirmeth to be so necessarie that except a man beleeue them whole and inuiolate he shall perish for euer The blinde ordinary faith of Papists to beleeue as the Popish Church beleeueth is not that Catholike faith which Athanasius saith Euerie one must beleeue that will be saued Since then by your owne confession where no true faith is there is no iustice it behoueth all men to be well assured of the faith they hold not resting their faith in the wisedome of men but in the power of God that is in the Gospell which is the power of God to saluation to euery one that beleeueth by which only faith the iust man shal liue and not by such Rom. 1. 16 a faith as is built vpon the Popes power to make what faith he list The Second thing you woulde inferre of Augustines words is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to faith and so absteine from communicating with Heretikes in their seruice and sacraments we cannot be saued If the termes be rightly vnderstood the doctrine is true wholesome for men that beleeue must liue according to faith all true beleeuers must absteine from communicating with Heretikes but vnderstanding Faith for Popish faith and Heretikes for those that are opposite to Poperie that is indeede true beleeuers vnder these cloudy and mistie words you secretly infuse into the minds of those that are seduced by you the poyson of disloialtie treason rebellion which is now the principall Article of your Popish faith for the Popish faith is that it is of necessity of saluation that euery soule be subiect to the Pope that the Pope hath power to accurse and dâ—pose Princes and absolue their subiects from all their allegeance that no man ought to obey a prince excommunicate by the Pope or deposed by him These are the chiefe articles of your popish Creede Whosoeuer beleeueth and obeieth these shall vndoubtedly be saued how be it in the Popes heauen that is in Gehenna in heâ— fire whither the Pope draâ—eth innumerable soules Dist 40. si Papa with him to be tormented with euerlasting fire Your meaning then is to breede a resolution in the hearts of all those whom you cal Catholikes in this land that although they be neuer so deuout Papists yet if they walke not according to their Popish faith that is if they bee not true to the Popes triple crowne if they practise not by al meanes to reduce his tyraÌ„nie into this kingdom if they be not at all times traytors in heart purpose as soone as opportunity serueth traytors in action they cannot be saued This is the wholesome doctrine of Poperie as appeareth both by the Bull of Pâ—us S. against Q. Elizabeth of blessed and princely memorie and by Nicholas Sanders who thus writeth Huc igttur iam De visib mouarc lib. 2. cap. 4. tandemres deducta est c. Now then the matter is brought to this point that an Hereticall Kinge must bee remooued from the kingdome which hee holdeth ouer Christians And because the crime for which hee is to be remooued is committed against faith doubtlesse it belongeth chiefly to the Bishops both to pronounce the Kinge himselfe an Heretike or otherwise an Apostata and also to declare that his subiects are from thence foorth free of yeelding obedience vnto him that they ought to do their best that another may withall speed be supplied in his roomth Who seeth not that vtterly it abhorreth from the saluation of mens soules to suffer him to raigne ouer the faithfull who is himselfe an infidell O miserable Popish faith which driueth all subiects of protestant that is christian Princes either to be rebells and traytors as a matter appertaining to the saluation of their soules or else vtterly to despaire of saluation for that you adde of communicating with those whom you call Heretikes it is some part indeed of your Popish faith that your adherents ought to absteine from our seruice and sacraments and most willingly you
would haue all Papists so to do because you make reckoning that the more desperat they grow herein the more neere and apt they are to rebellion and trayterous attempts but yet rather then altogether to driue them from you you will moderate the rigor of your faith in this point and permit them to serue the times alwaies prouided that you be sure of their hearts and that they faile you not when opportunity serueth as appeared in the faculty granted to Parsons and Campiaâ— But marke what this forcible Reasoner saith Such doctrine to wit as this faculty conteineth is deuised only for the cold coÌ„fort of such as loue the world to much Howsoeuer the Pope dispense with Church Papists this Ghostly Father and such like tell them that such dispensations are but cold comfort so slender reckoning they make of them that they call them no better then Temporizers and such as frame their consciences to the lawes and finally such as loue the world too much If the Popish faith were the true Christian faith no doubt this reprehension were iust It behooueth therefore all seduced Papists to trie the Popish faith by the word of God whether it be the true faith or not I speake not of those Catholike points of faith which the popish Synagogue holdeth in common with the church of Christ but of that Apostasie which is risen vp in the Church and vnder the collour and name of the Church to beguile the vnstable and vnbeleeuing Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour Christ which Matth 7 15. Operam perfect 10 Matth. 7. hom 19. come vnto you â—â— Sheepes clothing but inwardlie they are reuening wolues Christians saith Chrysostome are rightly called sheepe but the sheeps garment is the shew of christianitie A wolfe many times weares a sheeps garment that is makes a couÌ„tersait shew of religioÌ„ in seÌ„blance either of those works that being rightly done are the workes of sheepe or of the practise of that religioÌ„ which is the religioÌ„ of sheep Counfait almes saith Chrisostom is a sheeps garment but not a sheeps worke Counterfait praier is a sheeps garment but no sheeps worke Counterfait fasting is a sheepes garment but no sheepes worke So are all other shewes of pietie wherwith rauening wolues cloth theÌ„selues The Popish agents make great vaunts of almes prayer and fasting by boasting of good things to insinuate them selues into honest mindes This ostentation is nothing else but a sheepes garment Againe in practise of religion they make a greate shew and thereby dazell the eies of the ignorant for to vse the words of Chrysostome out of their simplitie and zeale but not according to knowledge thus they say How can I say that he is no christian whom I see to confesse Christ to haue an Altar to offer the sacrifice of bread and wine to read the holy scriptures to haue all the order of priesthood Wherevnto Chrysostome maketh this answere That euen an Ape hath the members of a man and in all things like a man shall we therefore say that it is a man So likewise Heresie hath and imitateth all the misteries of the church but Heretikes are not the church yea saith Chrisostom they shew to be grounded christians they haue their churches nay they gouerne churches yet openly anaucentiously subuert them yea they are so multiplied that christians seeme rather to bee wonderers or deceiuers then they yet are they inwardly rauening Wolues because they seeke not to saue but to destroy Christians as the nature of the VVolfe is Hitherto Chrysostome hath set forth the faire and deceiueable shewes that false Prophets make both of their works and of their faith wherein they would seeme to be sheepe but are indeed rauening Woolues Now let vs see what aduise he giues to beware of them and to trie them By their fruites yee shall knowe them The fruite of a man saith Chrysostome is the confession of his mouth and the worke of his conuersation If therefore thousee a Christian man consider by and by whether his confession agree with the Scriptures if it doe he is a true Christian but if it be not as Christ hath commaunded he is a false Christian For so Iohn writing in his Epistle of heretikes said not If anie man come vnto you not hauing the name of Christ Say not vnto him God speed but if any man bring not this doctrine He reserred the triall of Christianitie not to the name of Christ but to the Confession because not only the name maketh a Christian but also the truth of Christ for many walke in the name of Christ but few in his Truth Then coÌ„ing to the works of conuersation Doth a sheep saith he at anie time persecute the Wolfe or rather the Woolfe the sheepe So Cain persecuted Abel and not Abel Cain Ismael Isaac and not Isaac Ismael Esau Iacob and not Iacob Esau the Iewes Christ and not Christ the Iewes heretikes Christians and not Christians heretikes Therefore by their fruites yee shall knowe them For if a Woolfe be couered with a sheepes skinne how shall a man knowe him but either by his voice or by his deede In which comparison you may there see how Chrysostom proceedeth farther A litle after he saith But what fruits do they bring forth wounds troubles other mischiefs As a thorne or a bramble of what side soeuer you view it hath prickles so of vvhat side soeuer you consider the seruants of the diuell they are full of iniquities If he speake he speakes deceitfullie if he holde his peace he museth of euill If he be angrie he is mad if he deale patientlie he vvaiteth for a time to hurt and considereth of some opportunitie vvhen he may doe mischiefe If he do euill he is not ashamed â—f he doe vvell hee doth it for vaine glorie because of men Thus farre Chrysostome Briefly to make Application The Popish Church is of great authoritie euen for the very names sake of the Church with all seduced Papists Their ostentation of almes prayer and fasting makes a great shew in their eies Their confession of Christ their altars their pretended sacrifice their baptisme their reading of Scriptures and shew of Fathers their priestly order do seeme to be infallible signes of a true Church Howbeit as you haue seene Chrysostome affirmeth that heretikes haue all these yet are they no more the true Church for these then an Ape is a man for the resemblance he hath of the parts of mans body Their multitude especially considering the reach of long time makes many suppose it impossible that they should be false Churches Yet Chrysâ—stome sheweth that heerein heretikes are so farre before Christians that Christians rather seeme to be deceiuers or new vpstart and vagrant persons What then is to be done to discerne them Try them by their fruits that is the confession of their faith and the workes of their conuersation And how shall we trie the confession of their faith by the Scriptures
saith Chrysostome and by the commaundement of Christ But Papists admit no triall of their faith but by themselues they are the Church The Pope is the supreame Pastor he that will not heare this Church and this Pastor is held Anathema as an heathen or Publican What is this else but that which Chrysostome saieth they ruling the Church doe openlie and licentiouslie subuert the Church for they prescribe their owne practise for the rule of faith and take away all indifferent meanes of triall and will be both makers and iudges of faith This is the confession of their faith that they are the Church and you must beleeue it and therefore beleeue that all is true which they say whatsoeuer interpretation of the scriptures they deliuer it is the true sence of the scriptures what heresie by this prescription may not be maintained yea what trial of spirits is left to the Church if any one spirit must be thus beleeued without submission to be tried by the Scriptures Come to their conuersation Are not their fruites vvoâ—nds troubles and manifold mischiefes deposing of Princes inciting of subiects to rebellions procurement of forraine inuasions impoysonings and murthers of Princes and all that stand in their light threatnings of stabbings and cutting of throats finally vnderminings of Parliaments and conueâ—ances of powder to blowe vp King Queene Prince Nobles Bishops Iudges Commons that without any distinction euen in a moment Can they charge Protestants whoÌ„ they call heretikes with such sauage wooluish ye diuellish hâ—llish and stygian practises They draw vnto them all the sonnes of Belial whom they can intise out of all protestant kingdomes and states to make continuall imployment of them to worke the subuersion of their natiue Countries to infect with butcherly and Scithâ—an crueltie the mindes of subiects by desperate furies to drive men to infamous and vntimely temporall deaths and to eternall damnatioÌ„ not caring what become of their bodies or soules so their turnes be serued Can the religion of Protestants be stained with such barbarous and bestiall crueltie They receiue the Sacrament in way of obligation to commit murders to practise rebellions to subuert kingdomes yea they promise before hand and graunt great pardons to such as they procure to vndertake such villanies They make Martyrs of those who for barbarous treasons rebellions and murthers haue iustly suffered such punishment as they deserued both by the law of God and man Are these the works of sheepe or of woolues By their fruites therefore you shall knowe them they are on euery side full of sharpe and cruell prickles If they speake they equiuocate if they be silent there are seauen abhominations in their hearts as the sequele hath euer prooued if they be angry they are mad nothing will serue but inuasions rebellions poysonings powder treasons and all maner fell and cruell practises If they be patient they waite a time to hurt and in the meane time they are preparing some mischiefe as manifold experience hath prooued and the sunne hath often seene If they do euill they are not ashamed as the desperate obstinacie of the late powder traytors shewed If they do any thing well they doe it for vaine glory to beseene of men and to get a name to themselues Is this the Church whereof euery man must be a member or else he cannot be saued is this the Catholike faith is this to liue according to the faith will any man be so blinded that for loue or zeale to such a Synagogue or for awe or feare of the curse of such cursed workers he will refuse to ioyne with the Protestants in their seruice Sacraments My deare brethren put no trust in any childe of man which by Augustines confession our Sauiour Christ forbiddeth Pin not your saluation vpon his sleeue that may go to hell himselfe I meane the Pope Beware of them that outwardly weare onely sheepes clothing but inwardly are very rauening Woolues as you finde by their fruits Trust not them that will be tried for their truth and honestie by none but themselues suspect their honestie that shut vp the Scriptures from you which our Sauiour Christ coÌ„manded all men to search Finally inquire whether Christ or any Apostle or any holy Councel or Father did euer put poyson sword or powder into mens hands to murther the sacred persons of Kings to ruinate whole Kingdomes and to promote the faith of Christ by poyson sword and fire If you finde any such president hearken to this forcible reasoner and all other Iesuites and Seminaries refuse our Churches our seruice and Sacraments If not disclaime that religion that faith that seruice that Sacrament that serueth to combine such conspiracies that must get vp and prosper by such monstrous and endlesse crueltie God of his mercie open your eyes that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ Iesus may shine vnto you that you may be able to discerne the mysterie of iniquitie which of long time hath wrought in the Kingdome of Antichrist that you may knowe the synagogue of Satan from the Church of Christ and at length come out from Babylon and escape the wrath present and to come and finally be saued by the only faith of Iesus Christ to whom be glory for euer Amen FINIS