So that we may most truely affirme that there is no one tenent of our Church but we haue a plaine place of Scripture for it but it may truly be retorted vpon you that you haue not one plaine place for any one of your tenents or practices so that ye are faine miserably to wrest and straine any text hence alledged and when that will not doe to fly to Apochryphall bookes traditions and ridiculous fables Elym Are all these sayings in your Bible if they bee it is more then I know but sure I am that there are sentences plainly teaching the same that we doe For what else is that saying of our Sauiour This is my body and my flesh is meat indeed and blood drinke indeed and vpon this rocke will I build my Church and to thee will I giue the Keyes of the Kingdome of heauen and againe Peter feed my sheepe And touching the Church Math. 18.17 1 Tim 3.15 If he heareth not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and the Church is the ground and pillar of truth Touching other points we need none other Scripture seeing to the Church it is promised Ioh. 16.13 When he is come which is the spirit of truth he will lead you into all truth Wherefore the Church cannot erre and whatsoeuer is by her propounded as matter of faith or practice must needs then be right But bee it knowne vnto you that wee want not plaine places for particular points Touching iustification Iam. 2.24 A man is not iustified by faith onely but by workes Touching prayer for the dead There is a sinne vnto death I say not that yee should pray for it 1 Ioh. 5.16 Iam. 5.14 Luke 7.47 Math. 25. Touching extreame vnction They shall pray for him and anoint him in the name of the Lord. Touching the merit of workes Many sinnes are forgiuen her because shee hath loued much and Come ye blessed c. for I was hungry and yee fed me c. For time would faile me if I should go on to alleage all the places that plainly make for vs. Paul You doe well so to slieglit our euidences brought out of the holy Scriptures because they are so plaine that they cannot bee answered neither indeed doe your sect much acquaint your selues with the Bible for there are some students in Diuinity of many yeares that neuer read the Bible To your places therefore How doth the speech of our Sauiour make for Transubstantiation without altering or adding It is meat indeed we confesse but he saith not is meat for the body nor yet in explaining himself afterwards hath he one word intimating a bodily substance that he would giue to be fed vpon but the clean contrary for he saith Ioh. 6.63 the flesh profiteth nothing my words are spirit and life Againe for those sayings vnto Peter there is nothing plaine for Peters supremacy for his bearing vp all as a foundation and much lesse for his pretended successours the Bishops of Rome For plainly to teach these things had beene to haue said vpon thee and thy successours will I build my Church and to thee and to him that shall succeed thee in thy Bishopricke at Rome I will giue authority ouer all others But so far is the Lord from this that when there was iust occasion offered vpon the motion of the mother of Zebedees children to declare the supreme when they contended about it amongst themselues hee speaketh no word to settle the supremacy vpon any one but altogether to stop the mouth of any from once challenging it But I haue spoken sufficiently of this before so that I shall not need to adde any thing about his commission to feed his sheepe It is maruaile that when all chiefe points of faith are so plainely expressed that this which is so much stood vpon as inferiour to none should be so obscurely passed ouer Touching the Church there is nothing plainely spoken that it shall be alwayes visible but onely it may be implyed that as long as there are Christians to doe those mutuall offices of reproouing one another for sinne there shall be a discipline exercised in the Church how corrupt soeuer for the chastisement of such as are complained of as manifest transgressors of the Law the iust proceedings whereof notwithstanding the corruptions are of force to the terror of malefactors For that saying tell the Church at that time had reference to a most corrupt Church of Scribes and Pharisees whose authority was yet by the Lord established saying Math. 23.1 whatsoeuer they bid you obserue that obserue and doe So that from hence nothing more can be rightly taught no not by inference but that there shall alwayes be some visible Church good or bad which we also acknowledge But in case that there bee two such Churches together who doubteth forsaking that which is corrupt to goe to the best and soundest Touching error from which you seeke to exempt your Church because the Church is called the gound and pillar of truth what is this to the present Church of Rome the sinke of most grosse errors and superstitions The true Church indeed such as it was in those dayes founded vpon the Prophets and Apostles Christ himselfe being the chiefe corner slone Ephes 2.20 was the ground of truth because therein the truth was preserued and vpheld and wheresoeuer it is so at this day that Church is likewise the ground and pillar of truth But it doth not necessarily follow that wheresoeuer the Church is whether sound or corrupt it is the ground of truth for so much as the truth held and eleaued vnto in all things maketh the Church the pillar and ground of truth and not the Church that to be true whatsoeuer she shall think good to propound For otherwise Christ the Prophets Apostles with their dictates institutions and writings should not bee a ground vnto men succeeding and inferiour to them but these men should bee a ground vnto them which were absurd And the same I answer to that promise of the spirit it was peculiar to the Apostles and special instruments stirred vp for those times to be so guided into all truth as not to erre because what came from them was to bee a ground to the faithfull in all succeeding ages and it is most palpably wrested to your Church now And if your fundamentall places be thus impertinently alledged the rest will fall without any labour at the least most worthy Sergius you may be able to iudge hereof by that which hath beene already spoken in laying open the faith of the reformed Church Serg. Paul When these places were first alledged by Elymas I thought it impossible to answer them and therefore did begin to incline to thinke better of the Roman Church then you had perswaded me but now I see that they are but the painting and colouring of a deformed face being without all true beauty And for the places omitted I haue them
grace as that there is in him no imperfection or want at all Of the former the Lord speaketh that wee should loue not onely friends but also enemies and exercise benignitie to all and not of the other Againe there is a perfection of sinceritie and a perfection of sanctitie of the former of which onely I spake and not of the latter for I had immediately before acknwoledged my selfe not perfect in that sense Serg. Paul What is the eleuenth particular point Saul The eleuenth point is that mans will is so corrupted euer since the fall of Adam as that hee cannot desire to be conuerted or thinke a thought tending to conuersion but of his owne will he is caried onely to euill till that God of his grace changeth his will by putting a new heart and spirit into him Gen. 6.5 2 Cor. 3.5 Phil. 2.13 For all the imaginations of mans heart are onely euill continually and we are not able to thinke a good thought as of our selues but it is God that worketh in vs the will and the deed of his owne good pleasure Serg. Paul Why then are we bidden to turne from sinne to repent and beleeue the Gospell and why is it vsed as an argument of iust iudging How oft would I haue gathered you together and ye would not if they could doe no otherwise Saul Wee are bidden to turne to shew that the Lord will not turne vs without our being willing and by thus calling vpon vs he worketh a willingnesse in such as bee elected and if any notwithstanding are still hardened and finally damned the cause is not in God who is tyed to no man but in the corruption of their owne will brought in by mans owne default when at the first it was not so Serg. Paul What is the twelfth particular point Saul The twelfth point is that mariage is free for all men and that none ought to be debarred from it but if any can containe they are to bee exhorted to vse this gift that they may be more free to serue God not being intangled with so much worldly businesse as they which haue wife and children For mariage is honorable amongst all men Heb. 13.4 1 Tim 4 3. and it is a doctrine of Deuils forbidding to marry yea the Apostles themselues were maried men and I might haue vsed the same libertie also neither doth the Lord approue it to bee good for any sort of men not to marry Math. 19.12 but for such onely as can containe Serg. Paul If mariage bringeth worldly incombrances and the Ministers of the Gospell had need to enioy all freedome that they may the better attend vpon their office it seemeth that the vnmaried are rather to bee preferred if a sufficient number of such may be had and if any bee therefore willing to liue alwaies single that they may be the more fit for this seruice it is no forbidding of mariaege to receiue onely such to holy Orders Againe though mariage be lawfull and a mans companying with his wife be no sinne yet it disableth him for a time to communicate in such things as wherein holy persons onely haue libertie as to eate of the Shew-bread Abiathar telleth Dauid 1 Sam. 21.4 that if they had not lately companied with women they might cate of it and the Priests vnder the Law when their course came to serue in the Temple liued apart from their wiues as appeareth by the example of Zachary Luk. 1.23 Saul If any sufficient and fit for life and learning hauing the gift of continencie liue single it is not to bee doubted but that they are to be preferred but because this gift is very rare and for preferment men will take vpon them that which they haue no abilitie vnto to admit onely such into holy Orders is in effect to forbid mariage to some and damnable as of the Deuill as hath been already shewed Yea it is a maruell that they which pretend the Apostolicall title so much should bee so plainely against the Apostle who saith Let a Bishop be the Husband of one Wife 1 Tim. 3. Neither are they that inforce themselues to a single life but want the gift the more free but rather much more troubled seeing lust is an hundreth times more incombring then any domesticall troubles of the maried And lastly if it bee a good reason against the mariage of Priests that companying with women makes them vnfit to partake of the Holy Bread for a time it is good also against the mariage of any Christian man who is now also to partake of this bread as well as the Priest No more therefore can be hence concluded but that all should abstaine from companying with their wiues against the time of communicating as against the time of fasting Prayer For so I haue elsewhere directed Defraud not one another 1. Cor. 7 5. except it be by consent for a time that ye may giue your selues to fasting and Prayer and come together againe Serg. Paul What is the thirteenth particular point Saul The thirteenth point is that the holy Scriptures that is the canonicall bookes of the Old and New Testament are alone sufficient for saluation neither are any other either Apochryphall Writings or vnwritten Traditions of like authoritie but onely so far forth to be receiued as they agree with the contents of these Bookes For it is plainely expressed that though Iesus did and spake many things more then are written yet these things are written that wee might beleeue and beleeuing haue eternall life Ioh. 20.31 Gal. 1 8. And if we or an Angell from Heauen bring any other Gospell let him bee accursed We that are the Apostles of Christ haue euer submitted our doctrine to bee examined by the written Word and therefore Act. 17.11 if any thing be pretended to haue been taught by vs by word of mouth or by any that haue followed vs not consonant to the written Word it is without doubt to bee reiected Serg. Paul It is no where written that the Lords day is to bee kept holy in stead of the old Sabbath nor that infants are to bee baptized nor that the Lords Supper is to bee receiued in the morning or at the Church or by women as well as by men and yet these things are necessarie Saul These are agreeable to the written Word and therefore good reason that they should bee obserued but this maketh nothing for vnwritten traditions contrary to the Word of God or for the authoritie of any that are without ground here Serg. Paul The Scriptures are obscure and therefore alledged euen by the vilest Heretikes so that if they onely be receiued it seemeth that there will be nothing to patronize the truth more then errour It is not therefore necessarie to take them with the sense receiued by the Church that wee may hold aright and be saued Saul Many places of Scripture are plaine and easie to be vnderstood namely so many as doe
set forth the Articles of our faith Gods holy will and commandements and the doctrine of Prayer and worshipping God which is all necessarie to be knowne vnto saluation so that herein a Christian of ordinarie vnderstanding needeth not to depend vpon the sense of others but immediately vpon the Word of God In places more obscure the best Doctors of the Church haue alwayes differed and therefore euen herein Christian people are not tyed to the sense of any but to that which is most agreeable to the truth plainely set forth in some other place Serg. Paul If all haue iudgement in the sense of Gods Word then it seemeth that none are to bee debarred from reading the Scriptures for feare of falling into errour by so doing whereas it is plaine that ignorant persons are peruerted sometimes by the scriptures themselues 2. Pet. 3.16 For there are many places hard to be vnderstood which the ignorant and vnstable peruert to their owne damnation Saul Nothing can be more against the minde of Christ then to debarre the people from reading and hearing the Scriptures read in a knowne tongue For hee hath bidden Search the Scriptures for therein yee looke to finde eternall life Ioh 5.39 The danger that some fall into hereby is otherwise to bee prouided against viz. by diligent preaching and opening the sense Serg. Paul But is not the Church all in all to Christian people Haue they not the Scriptures from the Church and do they not by the Church come to know that they are the Word of God and therefore howsoeuer the Church shall order the reading and setting forth of the Scriptures is it not to be held to be done very well Saul It is not to bee denied but that as the Woman of Samaria brought the people there to the knowledge of Christ so we are brought by the Church at the first to know the Scriptures to be the Word of God but as the same people said vnto her after that Christ had taught them Ioh 4.42 now we beleeue not because of thy words but because we haue heard him our selues So Christian people receiuing the Word into their hearts doe not beleeue any more because of the Church but because the Word it selfe working vpon their consciences perswadeth them that it is the Word of God And as it gaue the being at the first vnto the Church so the Church is to bee ordered thereby as by the superiour and not to order it as an inferiour Serg. Paul What is the fourteenth particular point Saul The fourteenth point is that Christ onely is the supreme head and foundation of his Church neither hath any one man nor ought to haue superioritie ouer all others in spirituall matters in all Countries and Nations being as it were a common Rocke whereupon all may stay themselues nothing doubting but that cleaning to him they cleaue to Christ 1 Cor. 3 9. and are free from errour For none can lay any other foundation sauing that which is laid Iesus Christ If vpon any other the Church be founded it is not vpon one but vpon all the Apostles alike Ephes 2.20 Gal. 2.9 and the Prophets too if vpon any as more principall they are three Iames Cephas and Iohn who seemed to be Pillars If a power spiritually to rule by opening and shutting binding and loosing be committed to any ouer all others neither is that committed to one Peter but to all the Apostles Ioh. 20 23. For whose sins ye remit saith the Lord they are remitted and whose sinnes yee retaine they are retained and if any one hath rule ouer the world as chiefe it is not Peter Gal. 2 7. but Paul For to Peter was committed the ministerie of the circumcision onely which was but of one Nation to Paul the minister of the vncircumcision which was of all the rest of the world Serg. Paul But of Peter the Lord saith singularly Math. 16.16 Thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church and to thee I giue the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen And follow me and I will make thee a fisher of men And againe Peter louest thou me Ioh. 23. Feed my sheepe By all which it should seemt that howsoeuer others had power of binding and loosing too yet he was preferred as chiefe and aboue all the rest after whom such another should succeed and so another from age to age to the worlds end And this construction seemeth to bee verified by the vninterrupted succession of those Bishops who challenge to be his successors beyond all other Bishops of any other place seeing there is no such sucression else where to be found Saul If Peter had beene appointed ouer all I had beene much to blame to withstand him to his face at Antioch Gal. 2.14 and to goe on in mine office without seeking allowance and aduice from him I doe not therefore acknowledge any chiefly intimated in Peter aboue the other Apostles but that hee should be a most notable instrument of glorifying God and propagating the Gospell wherein hee should exceed the rest being fuller of the power of the Holy Ghost as he was fuller of zeale towards Christ And that last committing of the sheepe and lambs to his feeding singularly was no more then was needfull after his grosse fall by denying his Lord and Master through which hee might for euer haue beene discouraged had not his commission beene againe renued It pleased our good God for his owne glory to deale alike with him and with me both grieuous sinners and blasphemers that where sinne had most abounded zeale and grace might most abound and whereas wee were most darkned through scandall that might hence arise making vs vnfit to be lights of the world to make vs shine by miracles aboue all others that thus no scandall to hinder the Gospell might any more appeare And as for the succession so much gloried in it is no true succession of Apostolicall men but of politicall Princes maintained by the sword and not by the word euen as the successors of Mahomet haue done Of Apostlolike men there hath beene a more true succession at Constantinople Alexandria and Antioch Serg. Paul But if there be no supreame power vpon earth how shall vnity be maintained in the Church seeing diners men will be of diners minds and in case of difference about matter of faith who shall be Iudge to end it if no one man how shall it come to an end or hath the Lord left his Church in such a miserable case as that she must needs broile in contentions without end Saul There was no supreame in the Primitiue Church and yet they are said to haue beens all together with one mind Act. 2.46 the Spirit which is the Author of vnity shall keepe the true Church in vnity though there be no visible head ouer all And as for differences that arise wee haue an exemplary direction to meet in Councell Acts
fall into the ditch Onely the iudgement of the Leader shall be greater especially if in sinister respects his conscience being conuicted by the truth he doth yet persist in vpholding errour as experience hath taught that many of them haue done Serg. Paul It standeth with good reason that they which wittingly preferre errour should beare the burthen of it but methinkes such as are mis-led by them following their conscience should not perish for many of them serue God according to their profession with a good heart Saul Errour is of that nature as that it is damnable in whomsoeuer First because it is contrary to truth which sanctifieth and maketh free For so the Lord hath prayed Ioh. 17.17 Ioh. 8.32 Sanctifie them by thy Truth and hath pronounced the truth shall make you free Wherefore contrariwise errour polluteth and enthralleth and so debarreth from entring heauen Reuel 22. because no vncleane thing shall enter there and the bond-woman shall bee cast out with her children Secondly Gal. 4. because it is a iudgement vpon those onely that perish and are damned to haue their eyes blinded and to bee giuen ouer to delusions as I haue shewed 2 Cor. 4.4 2 Thes 2.11 Thirdly because God is truth and the Deuill is a lyar and therefore by error the minde is out of the way to God and can neuer enioy him but is in the right way to the Deuill Serg. Paul Any one of these reasons is sufficient to proue their wofull case But may there not be any meanes found out to reconcile these two Religions by yeelding somewhat on both sides and by laying aside austeritie and strangenesse and by putting on lenity and familiaritie one towards another Saul In all the particular points of difference I haue made it plaine that we are in the truth as therefore if wee would not goe from God we must not go from any of these things either in faith or practiceâ— for â—hat were but to yeeld to accompany them in the way to perdition and not to doe any thing aduantageous to their soules Wherefore they must yeeld vnto vs and as we haue already done come out of this Babel of errours and superstitions if euer they will inioy true peace and comfort to Godward In the meane season if gentle and perswasiue meanes would doe them any good they haue them in greater measure then they could expect considering their forepassed cruelty and rigour but for familiaritie and bosome friendship it is expressely against that charge Tit. 3.10 An Hereticke after once or twice admonition auoid Serg. Paul I thanke you most heartily for this light which you haue giuen vnto me and I thanke God who sent you vnto me by whose grace I resolue to liue and dye in the faith which you haue declared and after no other manner to worship God And for this you shall no more be called Saul but because I count you my best friend in the world and so another very selfe you shall be called after mine owne name Paul because I know not otherwise how to expresse how nearely to my heart I haue placed you for your good instructions this day giuen vnto me Elymas Most excellent and worthy Gouernor I am sorie to heare that a man of your place and wisdome should haue his eares and minde so much abused by the seducing words of an Arch-hereticke Is your Church the onely True Church of God and is the Church of the Catholikes a false Church or none at all Oh God what will not these men perswade vnto Is it not manifest to all the world that yee are a company of Heretikes and Schismaticks and a Church but of yesterday or since Luthers time at the most Was God without a Church till your faction began What impudencie is this to abuse Noble Gouernours of Countreys thus by drawing them from the Catholike Church of Rome that hath euer been famous through the world for constant cleauing to the Christian Religion Paul Thou bewitching Sophister and beguiler of simple soules is is knowne to all men that this is your vsuall false slander of our Church and the chiefe string to your Bow so that when yee haue nothing else to fay your refuge still is the old Religion the old Religion what will ye forsake the old Religion for a new But to follow you and beat you with your owne weapon Be it knowne that the reformed Religion is the old Religion indeed and the present religion of the Church of Rome a new religion of which this noble person present shall be iudge seeing you haue prouoked me to enter these lists with you Elymas I am content that either he or any man shal iudge herein betweene vs and if you can proue what you haue sâ—yd I will lose the day Paul I proue it therefore thus The Religion commended to vs by Gods Spirit in the holy Scriptures is the old Religion and that whereof men of later times are authors is new in comparison of it But the reformed is thus commended to vs as I haue already fully declared and the Religion of the present Church of Rome is from men of latter times Ergo. Elymas Neither is the Protestant Religion commended in the holy Scriptures nor the Roman Catholike Religion inuented by man since For as much as you bragge of the Scriptures you haue not one plaine sentence in your owne Bible for any one point of your Religion without adding altering or glossing vpon it as is your vsuall manner And for our Religion shew if you can when and by whom those points which you call errors were inuented for wee hold that all things haue euer since the Apostles times been thus Paul I maruell that you and your fellow whosoeuer hee was that wrote the book blasphemously intituled The gag for the Gospell are not ashamed so boldly to charge vs that we haue not one plaine place of Scripture What is that saying of our Lord Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onely shalt thou serue Mat. 4.10 Doe not both the words and the circumstances plainly make for vs denying to fall downe and worship any but God otherwise Christ had not spoken so appositè to Satan bidding him to fall downe and worship him What is that command Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen image c. And againe Deut. 4.15 Take good heed vnto your selues for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Hoâ—eb lest you corrupt your selues and make you a grauen image the similitude of any figure c. What is this saying There is one God 1. Tim. 2.4 2. Cor. 3.5 Phil. 2.13 and one Mediator betwixt God and man the man Christ Iesus and this Wee are not sufficient of our selues to thinke a good thought as of our selues and this God worketh in you the will and the deed of his own good pleasure with many more textâ— before alleaged which I spare to repeat
so freshly in my memory since you resolued them vnto me at that I am fully reselued that they are but wrested and wrung by the aduersary to sorne his turne Elym But by your fauour sir nothing hath yet beene sayd to one place plainly distinguishing betwixt veniall and mortall sinnes and concluding prayer for some dead viz. that sinne not vnto death but are penitent before they dye Paul You doe well to recall that againe which I thought not worth the answering How can it be spoken of mortall and veniall sinnes Is he that hath sinned a mortall sinne to be giuen ouer then as a desperate Reprobate and not to bee prayed for any more What is this but to condemne Peter himselfe and Dauid and Manasseh c. as vnworthy to bee prayed for If your distinction of mortall and veniall sinnes haue no better ground but this it is set vp altogether vpon the sands And for praying for any dead nothing can bee more absurd then to alledge this for he doth not note out the time of continuing or breaking off from sinne as making his case that hath sinned desperate or reparable by the prayers of others by reason of this circumstance but plainely in it selfe for hee saith There is a sinne vnto death And againe There is a sinne not vnto death that is in plaine English there is a sinne which who so committeth it shall dye therefore without all hope of life whatsoeuer prayers should be made for him but there is sinne also the proper sequell and wages whereof is death yet not so necessarily but remission and life may be obtained notwithstanding And if it be taken in this sense there is the consent of other places to confirme it as that All sinnes shall bee forgiuen to the sonnes of men but he that sinneth against the Holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen of such a sinne Saul seemeth to haue beene guilty when the Lord forbiddeth Samuel to pray any more for him But take it of praying for such as dye repeneantly and where can you finde any to second it Serg. Paul I see it is in vaine for you Elymas to hold argument with him any longer by the testimonies of holy Scripture preceed therefore to your plea of antiquitie for therein â—oâ— may happen to put him downe indeed Paul It must needs bee so Sir as you haue said for whatsoeuer flourishes they make their conscience telleth them that the Scriptures are against them seeing they can no more abide them then the â—â—â—tle the day-light Why else doe they keep them lockt vp in an vnknowne tongue Why doe they condemne our translations as hereticall and allow onely of Ieromes translation for it were a mad part for them to condemne and forbid that which maketh on their side This their cracking therefore of the Scriptures is but a fruit of their late impudency putting them on to vndertake the proofe of any thing that can bepropounded But they are very confident that we cannot demonstrate in particular the time and persons when and by whom their false doctrines were broached and their superstitions brought in yet I feare as little to enter the lists with him about this argument as about the other Elymas And I doubt not but to put you to shame enough in so doing for the most ancient Orthodoxe Fathers of the Church haue alwayes taught the same that wee doe and haue often mentioned the particulars of our deuotion which yee falsly call superstition Which being so I weigh not all your places of Scripture if you had as many more nor your colourable answers to such as haue beene by mee alledged for the customes of the Church and traditions deliuered from age to age are of the same authoritie with the holy Scriptures and they are rather to bee regulated hereby as being certaine then these by them speaking as euery man listeth to wrest and turne them Paul It is a false slander by you laid vpon the Scriptures that they are vncertaine and a burthening of Christian people for which you shall answere to obtrude traditions thus vnto them as I haue before declared To passe that ouer therefore here Who can tell whether the ancient Fathers in those passages wherein they haue made some mention of some practices by you vsed were made to speake so by some audacious forger seeing there are so many supposititious writings falsly fathered vpoÌ„ so many imaginary Fathers that neuer were in rerum natura and such purging and altering of ancient Writings hath beene made of late by the authority of the Councell of Trent Moreouer it is possible that through the neglect of Historians or wittingly in fauour of your abuses the originall and first springing vp of them may be concealed But if not few men are read in History neither is history reading necessary to saluation and therefore it maketh not any whit the more on your side though they cannot precisely set downe when and by whom your heresies and superstitions were brought in euen as Mahumetisme were no whit the more approueable though the originall thereof were vnknowne For by this reason the Heathen priests of old sought to maintaine the credit of their idolatries challenging the Christians for imbracing a new Religion It is a poore shift when any thing is particularly disproued by the Word of God to cauill about the beginning of it as if the day were lost if that could not be done for if the leakes of a Ship or the decayes of an House be apparant if corruptions within or blemishes vpon the bodie be made manifest what auaileth it to approue that they are no decayes or blemishes by pleading But can any man tell when these first began Elym Our errours as you call them are not so euident yet as your comparisons If you cannot therefore shew their beginning it is plaine that they were deliuered from the Apostles and it is heresie and impiety in you to impugne them Paul Doth the same fountaine send forth salt water and sweet Doth the same mouth speake contradictories for so certaine is it that these things cannot bee deriued from the Apostles seeing they are altogether against them But because you vige it so much I will set downe the time and age of euery part of your Religion that the nouelty of it may appeare to all the world And first I will begin with the chiefe and head of all your errours the Popes headship This was first established in a Councell at Rome of seuenty two Bishops thirty Presbyters and three Deacons in the time of Boniface the third Anno Dom. 607. Plat. in vita Bonis 3. being then obtained of Phocas who came to the Empire by murthering Mauritius his Master and therefore to prouide the better for himselfe he was willing by granting the supremacie ouer all to ioyne vnto him the Pope of Rome Conc. Constant the eight generall Councell Afterwards there was a Councell held at Constantinople in the dayes of Pope Adrian vnder Basilius
are admitted to their offices they should vow chastity Yea it was a thing so generally receiued euen from the Apostles times as that till of late yeares all were single without contradiction Paul That is a notorious lye For in the first Councell after the Apostles times which was held at Ancyra in Galatia Anno 308 it was ordained that Deacons pâ—ofessing at the time of their ordination that they had not the gift of continency might afterwards marry And in the Councell of Nice Anno 330 the mariage of such as were in holy orders comming in question againe Socrat. Lib. 1.6 11. Paphnutim Bishop of a towne in Thebaids being himselfe single so perswaded to leaue euery man to his owne liberty that nothing was then concluded against these mariages And in the 2 Councell of Tolledo it was ordained Con. Toll Con. 1. as in the Ancyran Councell before Now I pitcht vpon later times because then the debating of the question is set forth and vpon what grounds your Church proceeded which is omitted in Councels foregoing But I am glad that you can goe no higher in this point then the second Carthag Councell wherein neither were their mariages condemned but continency commended so that we haue two Councels before you that left mariage free to all men that could not containe Serg. Paul You haue said enough touching this matter and it is most likely that the Dewill spake in the Councell of Canter â—ury on Dunstans side against Prusts mariages because as I remember you shewed me before that to forbid mariage is the doctrine of Denils Proceed therefore to some other point Paul The reall presence so much stood vpon shall bee the next This was neuer determined nor the word transubstantiation heard of till the Councell of Lâ—â—eran vnder Pope Innocent the third Anno 1215 and the Councell held at Rome vnder Leo the ninth Anno 1050 against Berengarius who seeing that such an opinion began to take place impugned it and was therefore condemned and in another Councell vnder Pope Nicholas the second brought to recant but hee afterwards wrote againe to iustifie the same truth and to shew his repentance for his recantation Elym Herein you doe notoriously abuse the world It is true indeed that before Berengarius his opposition because no man withstood the doctrine of transubstantiation it was not in a Councell determined But doth it follow therefore that it was not before this time maintained Haue not all the Fathers that liued before from time to time as they had occasion to treat of the Masse taught with one consent a secret conuersion by the Priests consecration Ambr. vseth the very word conuersion mutation Lib. 4. de sacram v. 4. Hom. 5. de Pascale Euseb Emissenus sayth that the Priest by a secret power doth turne the visible creatures into the substance of Christs body blood what should I here reckon vp more Bellarmine hath numbred 32 Fathers speaking to the same effect Paul Although the Fathers doe vse the words conuersion mutation and making yet it is true that I sayd before they neuer taught transubstantiation yea after that Leo the ninth and his Councell had condemned Berengarius Peter Lombard one of your Schoole-men that liued Anno 1145 Lombard Sent. 1.4 dist 11. scanning vpon this conuersion saith If it be enquired what manner of conuersion it is whether formall or substantiall or of any other kind I am not able to define And after the determination of the Lateran Councell diuers others of your learnedest Schoolc-men haueing enuously acknowledged that the faith of the transubstantiation is founded only vpon the determination of the Church as Scot. in 4. Dist â—1 〈◊〉 3 art 1. and Biâ—llect 41. in Caâ— Misse Petrâ—â— de Aâ—aco in 4 Sem. qu. 5. art 2. Conc. 2. with diuers others To those sayings of the Fathers I answer that they meant not any alteration of the substance of the bread wine but that it still remaining they became in a wonderfull manner Christs very body and blood to the faithfull receiuer For thus Ambrose expresseth himselfe Amb. de sâ—â—ram 1.4 c. 4 â—ial 2. Gel in Eutych saying They are the things which they were and are changed into another thing And Theodoret saith These mysticall signes doe not gâ—â— from their nature after their sanctification And Gelasius against Eutychcs saith The signes remaine in the propriety of their nature And Drâ—thmarus that liued about An. 800 writing vpon these words ' Doe this in remembrance of mee Drutb in â—iet 26. saith the Lord turning the bread spiritually into his body the wine into his blood hath commanded vs to do the same that hereby we might remember what he hath done for vs. Augustine saith The Lord doubted not to say This is my body August Cont. Adim c. 12. when he game a signe of his body I could also reckon vp many more who haue taught that the very bread in the Sacrament is Christs body and not some other substance vndâ—r the appearance of bread as Iren. Iust in Martyr Cyprian Chrysostome Origen Nazianzen c. Elym These are your shists for though you bee vrged with places and sayings most plaine you will still haue some euasion or other Is it likely that if transubstantiation though not in word yet in effect had not beene generally receiued before Leo or the Latoran Councell that all the world without any opposition but onely of one Berengarius would haue at once yeelded vnto it Paul I wonder that you can without blushing speake of such a generall consent of all when as the whole Greeke Church withstood it tooth and nayle for howsoener they agreed vnto the Church of Rome in other things yet in this point such as were present of them at the Councell of Flerence vnder Eugenius the 4 Anno 1439 could neuer bee brought to consent yet because Eugenius was desirous of a consent for the credit of his Sea hauing drawne them to subscribe to his supremacy the proceeding of the Holy Ghost the vse of vnleauened bread in the sacrament and to Purgatory he caused a Bull to be published called Bulla consensus notwithstanding their constant opposition in the point of transubstantiation but euen in other things wherein they yeelded such distast was taken at them by the rest of the Greeke Churches at their returne home that they were publikely execrated therefore and prohibited Christian buriall And for others that opinion of the Spirits guiding the Church in the truth did so preuaile with them as that they yeelded to transubstantiation because it was in the Lateran Councell determined as appeareth by the confession of the Schoolemen before cited Scot. in 4 dist 11 qu. 3. art 1. the first of whom Scotus sayth If it be enquired why the Church hath chosen this so hard an vnderstanding of this article about transubstantiation when as the words of the Scripture might be expounded safely according to a more easie and
true sense in appearance I answer that the Catholike Church hath expounded the Scripture by the same Spirit of truth whereby it was at the first deliucred Elym All this will not elude the antiquity of this doctrine For if transubstantiation were not alwayes held why was the Masse called a sacrifice the table an altar the Minister a Priest why hath it alwayes beene shewed to the people to be worshipped and offered in one kind to the people and carryed about with that reuerence and the remainder of it kept for the same purpose in a Pixe to be ready vpon all occasions Paul Wee doe acknowledge that very anciently these names of sacrifice Altar and Priest were vsurped but not in your sense The table of the Lord was called an altar because the offerings of Christian people comming to the holy Communion which were brought for the reliefe of the poore were layd vpon it according to Ireuaus who sayth Lib. 2. Cap. 32. that Christ by taking bread and wine taught the Disciples a new oblation of the new Testament the first fruits of his creatures In those Cannons which are sayd to be the Apostles Can. 4. it is orâ—â—yned that nothing should be offered vpon the alter but eares of corne and frankinscense and in the 3 Councell of Carthage Can. 24. that nothing should bee offered but fruits of come and grapes And hence partly came the name sacrifice for almes are a sacrifice to God and partly because of the representation of Christs sacrifice made hereby seeing it is vsuall to call the thing representing by the name of the thing represented Lomb 1.4 dist 12. And so Peter Lombâ—rd sayth that it is not properly called a sacrifice but because it is a memoriall and representation of the true sacrifice of Christ vpon the crosse And lastly for the sacrifice of praise and thankesgiuing then offered vnto God That Christians had not altars properly so called is most plaine from Arnobins Arnob. lib. 6. contra gant Orig. lib. 8. cent Cals who sayth that the Gentiles accused the Christians because they had no altars and from Origen who acknowledgeth that Christians had neither altars nor images And therefore as it is called an altar so sometime it is also called a table See August cont lit Petil. l. 2. c. 47. Touching adoration it was not vsed till Honorius the third Anno 1220 fiue yeares after the Councell of Laterans Touching the administration in one kinde that was neues vsed Def. lib. de offic py viri till 1000 yeares after Christ as Cassauder sheweth and it was first decreed in the Councell of Constance vnder Pope Iobu the 23 Anno 1414 Touching the reseruation of the remainder there was a long time no such vse for they burnt it in the fire Hesych lib. 2. in Leuit â— 8. as Hesych testifieth and if sometime it was reserued it was by priuate persons who caryed it home with them but was not so generally approued and after more consideration in Councells condemned as in the Councell called Caesar Augustau Cap. 3. If any bee preued not to haue conformed the Eucharist receiued in the Church let him be anathema And in the first Tolletan Councell Cap. 14. If they shall remaine â—ill the morrow let them not be any longer reserued but by the diligence of the Clerciks consumed The name of your Masse is very ancient but then the Masse or missa was a dismissing of the Catecumeni when others remained to receiue and thus it continued to Anno 600 according to I sidor lib. 6. Orig. c. 19. The Masse therefore in your Church now is new and so are all your vsages of it and iustly by Christians to be exploded Serg. Paul I thinke this point hath beene so seanned that there needs no more to be sayd for mine owne part you hour giuen we such light into these things as I neuer had before for the ancient name of the Masse and Sacrifice and Altar c. made still some scruple in my minde that transubstantiation was a most ancient tenent of the Church But seeing I am now fully satisfied proceed to some other point Paul The next new thing is the Latine tongue wherein the Masse is offered and prayers are made and the Scriptures are kept This was not but where Latine was vnderstood till the dayes of Vitalian Pope An. 666 Osâ—â—d Cont. 7. in vvhose time Latine was first vsed in Constantinople Neither doth your Nauclerus much differ For hee assigneth it to the time of Pope Agatho Anno 675. In the other Countreys which vnderstood Latine as in France Britaine and in Africa it was vsed more anciently for the Latine tongue was familiar to them for the space of 700 yeares and vpwards as appeareth in one passage of the third Councell of Tours Cap. 17. Anno 770 wherein it is appointed that Homilies should bee turned into a rusticke Latine tongue or Theotiske that they might the better be vnderstood So that if the seruice vvas more anciently performed in the Latine tongue it vvas because they commonly vnderstood it best but since it not being vnderstood it is an absurd noueltie to vse it Elym It is necessarie that seeing Christs Church is one the seruice should be vniforme and for the Scriptures great reason to keepe them in an vnknowne tongue to preuent error Paul It is necessarie indeed as conducing to establish the Latine Monarchy but it were more necessary for edification to haue all in a knowne tongue as anciently it was wont to be as may be gathered from Chrysostom who saith Hom. 18. in 2. Cor. that common prayers are made both by the Priest and the people and Isidor When Psalmes are sung they ought to be sung of all De Ecst. off ib. 1. cap. 10. when Prayer is made let it be made by all and when there is reading let silence be made that all may heare And for your pretended feare of heresie that may be an excuse but seeing anciently all had the Bible in their owne languages it cannot but passe for a nouclty Serg. Paul Be there any more points the antiquitis whereof you can disprous as you haue done these Paul Yes the doctrine of Purgatory and praying for the dead came in also long after the Apostles The first that make mention of Purgatory are Tertullian and Origen whose authoritie is not so great because the one was a Montamst Hereticke and the other was condemned for many errours In Augustines time which was 400 yeares after Christ it was spoken of but doubtfully Tnchit c. 67.69 Whether there shall bee such a thing or no it may be enquired and either be found out or be kept secret from some faithfull persons In Esa l. 28. c. 〈◊〉 saith Augustine And Ierome saith that these things are to be left to the iudgement and knowledge of God Grog in Iob 13. c. 20. And Gregory the first Bishop of Rome who was after
him the punishment and not the fault hath done away both fault and punishment Aug. de verb. Dom. Scr. 37. and elsewhere more expresly Christ had two good things righteousnesse and immortality wee two euill things sinne and wortality the one hee tooke vpon him the other he did not and by taking vpon him the one he freed vs from both As for satisfaction required of vs it is not as he sheweth for punishment but to shew our repentance by our outward actions So that according to August wee are deliuered from mortality as a punishment and not only from hell fire Elym Howsoeuer you seeme to make these learned Fathers to speake it is plaine that they meant onely eternall punishments borne by Christ for vs. And therefore they doe vsually speake of works of penance and almes as hauing force to purge and wash away sinne Chrysostome sayth Hom. 1. in Gen. The common Lord of vs all desirous to haue all our sinnes washed away hath inuented this cure which is made by fasting Lib. de promis prad part 2. c. 2. Hom. 1. And Prosper saith Almes cleanse the whole man And Cesarius sayth that a man who by sinning hath lost himselfe doth agains redeeme himselfe by his satisfaction Paul Where is there a word in all these touching satisfaction for temporall punishments It may rather bee inferred if these speeches be strictly taken that wee are able to doe something to deliuer our selues from sinne both in respect of guilt and punishment temporall eternall Wherefore it must needs bee yeelded that these things were spoken improperly that being ascribed to the instrument or meanes which is proper vnto Christ Satisfaction therefore as it is now taught in your Church is rather to bee referred to the Lateran Councell Anno 1215 wherein the sacrament of penance was established an appendix whereof is satisfaction Elym Because you haue spoken of the sacrament of penance first appointed in the Lateran Councell I will lay hold vpon the occasion to put you to proue the nouelty of the seuen sacraments for if seuen haue beene anciently acknowledged this is not so new as you would make the world beleeue Paul I am very willing to follow you herein and let the issue rest vpon my prouing your seuen Sacraments to be nouelties I say then that this number was not knowne nor acknowledged by antiquity but was first taught by Peter Lombard and the Schoole-men following him aboue 1000 yeares after Christ Epist 118. Saint Augustine sayth the Sacraments of the New Testament are most few in number Isidorus An. 600 sayth Lib. 6 Originum c. 19. Pasc de Caena The Sacraments are Baptisme and Chrisme and the body and blood of Christ And Pascasius Anno 900 sayth likewise Elym They say these two are the chiefe indeed but they exclude not the rest Hugo de Sancto Victore teacheth seuen sacraments and of them he saith some are the principall wherein saluation standeth Lib. de sacram 7. part 9. c. 6. viz. Baptisme and the Supper of the Lord the rest though they bee not so necessary yet they profit vnto sanctification And I could easily shew that the ancientest Fathers haue called euery of these Sacraments Paul I grant you without shewing that they called them sacraments and so they called any holy signe according to Augustines definition August Epist 5. Euery holy sigue is a Sacrament But that there are any more then two properly so called they neuer taught and euen your Hugo who acknowledgeth 7 can be no ground for your 7 for he reckoneth not penance for one but the water of aspersion And the very Schoolemen deny the rest to be sacraments Lib. 4.26 properly so called P. Lombard denyeth Matrimony to be a Sacrament properly and vniuocally with the other sacraments and Durand likewise vpon that place Lib. 4. dist 24. The same Lombard denyeth ordination to bee properly a sacrament and Alexander de Hales and Thomas Aquinas vpon that place c. Serg. Paul This your dispute about the Sacraments hath brought to my mind another point yet â—â—toucht about the holy Scriptures and Traditions Can you shew that it is a noueliy is hold that together with the Canonical Scriptures Apocryphall bookes are to be receiued and vnwritten traditions as a rule of our saith or hath it euer beene held thus Paul It is a nouelty to hold that the Scriptures doe not containe in them all things necessary to saluation and that Apocryphall bookes are to be receiued as Canonicall and that traditious are necessary to saluation For the Fathers sought to hold all men onely to the Scriptures Hom. 1. in Psal 95. Chrysostome saith If any thing bee spoken without Scripture the thought of the bearers limpeth sometimes yeelding and sometime doubting And againe If ye hears any saying I haue the holy Spirit Serm. de S. Sp. but not speaking out of the Gospell bee speaketh of himselfe and the holy Spirit is not in him So Basil reg Mor. 8. 28. Epist 80. And touching Apocryphall books Cyril Hierusalym sayth Haus nothing to doe with Apocryphall bookes Catee 4. but read the canonicall which are considently read in the Church The Apostles and first Bishops were much wiser and more religious then thou who deliuered the scriptures vnto vs. Doe not thou therefore seeing thou art a child of the Church ges beyond their bounds Athen in Synop. Athanasius sayth There are 22 bookes of the old Testament Canonicall but there are other bookes which are not Canonicall which are onely read of the Catecumeni as the booke of Wisdome Ecclesiasticus c. Ierom calleth the History of Susamus Prafat in Den. of Bel and the Dragon fables and saith the same was the opinion of Eusebius Apollinarius Methodius c. Baruch was not receiued as Canonicall till the Councell of Florence Anno 1439. And touching vnwritten traditions they receiued none of old but either such as were consonant to the holy Scriptures which were written in sense though not in word according to Augustine of which was the baptisme of Infants and not to rebaptize De Gen ad lit lib. 10 c. 23. Tertul de Coron c. 23. or customes in indifferent things according to Tertullian who saith Dost thou not thinke that it is lawfull for euery faithfull Church to conceiue and constituent that which agreeth to God 〈◊〉 to diseiplione and profireth 〈◊〉 solnation And these by the prestice of your owne Church may be left off again For the thrice dipping in Baptisin standing in time of prayer vpon the Lords day tasting of milke and honcy in Baptisme c. anciently receiued are now abrogated and not held to bind Elym I could reioyne with you about this argument and bring many passages of the Fathers shewing their high esteeme of traditions but lest these disputes should proue tedious to this noble person and that he may not being fascinated with that which you haue said incline