And so your Argument by crossing shins with it selfe falleth to ground Again your Presbyteriall government hath neither best nor any sufficient warrant as wee judge in the New Testament no nor any warrant at all in Gods word But the true forme of Church-government hath both sufficient and without comparison best warrant in the Scripture And in truth whereas you oppose presbyteriall and Independent as you call it one against the other let me tell you that that which you call Independent is the onely true originall and primitive Presbyteriall Which Presbytery is proper and peculiar to every particular Church of Christâ— and is not a Presbytery collective of many Churches by way of jurisdiction one or many over each or of a Nationall Church as you terme it For neither of these can you find either in the New Testamens or in the Old In the old we read of one Church to wit that of the Nation of the Jewes But that whole Church was one intire congregation Act. 7. 38. they had one Church officer over all it is called the Tabernacle of the congregation in the singuler and they all assembled three times in the yeare at Jerusalem in the Temple where they offered Sacrifice and not else where So as the Church was a type of every particular Church of Christ under the New Testament as being both one intire Church and absolute subject to no other form of government but only that of the only Law-giver and Mediator Jesus Christ and no pattern of any such Nationall Church as you would have Every particular Church now consisting of visible Saints is under Christ as the onely Head King Governour Law-giver of it and so is subject to no other jurisdiction then that of Christ his Spirit his Word Were there none other particular Church in the world then one as that of Abrahams Family should it not be a compleat Church untill there were other Churches on whose jurisdiction it should depend though for ordinary Families they cannot have such a number as is requisite to make up a ministeriall body so are bound to unite to others for this end Wee hold communion and consociation of Churches for counsell in doubts and comfort in distresse but we deny any such combination of Churches as whereby the true liberty of every particular Church is taken away And this communion of Churches doth no lesse if not more prevent Heresies Schismes Injustice then your Presbyteriall Nor can you shew reason to the contrary And yet would you have our Churches more perfect then those of the Apostles own planting and gathering as to bee altogether exempted from Heresies Schismes Injustice Did not the Apostle tell the Church of Corinth There must bee Heresies eve among you that they which are approved may be made manifest And could those Primitive Churches after the Apostles preserve themselves from Heresics How soone did the whole world groane and wonder that it was become an Arian And this within the fourth Century after the birth of Christ when the Churches were governed by the Bishops and their Presbyteries And how soone did the Kingdome of the Beast mount up to such a height as it overtopt all the Westerne Churches and brought them under his dominion And for our truly and properly Presbyterian Churches your Independents to which you deny expresse warrant in Scripture the whole New Testament is both an expresse and ample witnesse on our side All those particular Churches which the Apostles planted were all of absolute authority amongst themselves respectively and equall one of the other You can shew unto us no rule or example to the contrary That in Act. 15. is a transcendent and stands alone not to be paralleld and therefore very impertinently objected by many before you as wee shall have occasion to shew afterwards And for pattern in the Primative Churches after the Apostles we are not curious to seeke it in the corrupt current of succeeding ages when we find it the pure fountaine It appeares say the Centurists Cent 1. 7 Titâ—de consociatione Eccles. that the Government of Churches in the second hundreth yeare was almost popular every Church had equall power of ordaining or casting out if neede were those Ministers they had ordâ—ined with other things very materiall in that whole Title as also in the Title de Synodis privatis And for the best reformed Churches if in them we cannot finde that patterne so fully followed as the Scripture holds forth unto us wee cruve leave without prejudice to take it as wee finde it in the Word without the least variation And you may knowâ— in the beginning of Protestant Reformation could they so clearly see in the dawning as wee may now in the meridian if we will but open our eyes The reformed Churches have taken up one or other of them upon the matter the maine things we contend for 1. The Church of Holland receive none to the Table nor have a vote as a member of that Church but such as first give satisfaction to the Elderships and then to the Congregation and 2. have a forme of covenant propounded by them Secondly the French Churches exercise excommunication in their particular congregations though with liberty of appeale And this was the governement of the Primitive Churches in the 2d hundreth yeare as appeares Cent. 2. c. 7. Tit. de Synodis but especially Tit. de consociatione Eccles. So as no long debate neede to be if but Christs word alone may take place without the necessary accommodation of humane Lawes Customes Manners of the people as you doe plead And lastly for appeales in case of Injustice you know brother that if injustice be done in any civill matter if redresse may not be had by the mediation of the Church whereof the parties are members then the Law is open there to appeale for justice And if it be about the Churches censure for some miscarriage of a member towards the Church or any member thereof if the censure bee unjust the party grieved may desire to have his cause heard by some other Churches who may accordingly deale with their sister-Sister-church to require a brotherly account of the whole businesse as is the duty of all the Churches in such cases And if it be in matter of opinion here the appeale lies principally and in the first place to the Scripture as the supreme Judge and if the things be obscure too hard for that Church to resolve by the Scripture then to call in the helpe of other Churches for their best information And in summe brother there is no case can fall out in any Church which hath not as many helpes by a free communion of Churches wherein every Churches peculiar liberties and priviledges are preserved as they ought to be as any you can name to bee in your obligatory combination of Churches wherby the liberty of each Church is by coÌ„mon consent sold over to others by which it ceaseth now to be a free Church
never so wicked But to your reasons First For else say you Paul and Barnabas being Apostles themselves might have decided that controversie at Antioch without sending to Ierusalem Answ. 1. By your favour brother Barnabas was not to speak properly an Apostle though an Apostolicall man 2. They argued with those Legalists at Antioch sufficiently to convince them but they comming from Judea and pretending the use of circumcision and Moses Law to be still in force in the Church at Jerusalem and the controversie being between two great parties the Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles hereupon the Church at Antioch thought it requisite for the fuller satisfaction to all parties to send Paul and Barnabas to the Apostles and Elders at Jerusalem And 3. because Paul and Barnabas are thus sent doth it follow that they were not sufficient yea Paul alone as an Apostle infallibly guided by the holy Ghost to have decided the question at Antioch As no doubt sufficiently they did though not so satisfactorily to all And 4. that they are thus by the Church at Antioch sent to the Apostles and Church at Jerusalem here is a good example for the use of communion of Churches as in doubtfull cases to consult one with another 2. Else say you the Church at Antioch would have sent to none to resolve their doubts but to the Apostles onely and not to the Elders I answer In that they sent to the Elders also it shewes the respect that one Church should have to another 2. Those Elders were men endowed with the gifts of the holy Ghost 3. Though they had not infallibility as the Apostles had yet their assent to the determination was a witnesse-bearing to the truth thereof 3. Else say you Paul and Barnabas would have put the question to the Apostles onely not to the Elders and Church as well as to them vers. 4 5 6. This is answered in the former 4. Else the Apostles would not have called all the Elders and brethren to consult v. 6. when themselves might have done it alone I answer 1. Though the Apostles might have done it alone yet they would not but called together the Elders and Brethren yea and the whole Church at Jerusalem vers. 4 22. hereby to give a precedent to all Presbyters or Elders of Churches that in cases of difference arising they call the whole Church together for assistance and counsell therein 2. In so doing the Apostles diminished nothing of that Judicial power and authority which Christ left with them for deciding of controversies being infallibly guided by the holy Ghost while they thought it not fit to doe such things in a corner which concerned the whole Church 5. Peter and Iames say you would not have argued the case so largely and proved it by Arguments and Scriptures as they did one after another but have peremptorily resolved it without dispute had they sate and determined it by their extraordinary infallible power I answer This followes no more then the former For the Arguments they used with the conclusion were by the direction of the holy Ghost And 2. The holy Ghost is not so peremptory but will have his truths examined by the Scriptures as Acts 17. 11. The Bereans are commended by the holy Ghost for examining Pauls Sermon by the Scripture though hee were an Apostle and spake by the holy Ghost And 3. the Churches assent was taken in for a witnesse ex abundanti 6. The finall resolution say you Letters and Canons of this Synod had run onely in the Apostles names had they proceeded onely by their Apostolicall infallible authority and not in the names of the Elders and brethren too I answer There is as little reason in this as in all the rest of your reasons for then by this reason sundry of Pauls Epistles which were all dictated by the holy Ghost did not proceed from that infallibility of Spirit alone wherewith the Apostle was guided because we find others not Apostles joyned with him As 1 Cor. 1. 1. Paul called to be an Apostle of Iesus Christ and Softhenes a brother to the Church of God c. And 2 Cor. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ and Timothy a brother to the Church c. And Gal. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle c. and all the brethren that are with me to the Churche of Galatia c. So Phil. 1. 1. Col. 1. 1. 1 Thess. 1. 1. Paul and Sylvanus and Timotheus to the Church c. In all which places though there was but one Apostle guided with infallibility of the holy Ghost to write the Scriptures yet many brethren are joyned in the salutation of the Churches and yet Paul as Apostle did write those Epistles and not simply as a brother or fellow-servant with them of Jesus Christ Neither are those brethren so named accounted the Pen-men of the Scripture as Paul of right is Thus you see brother there was no necessity that either the Apostles names should be put alone because they only were guided by the Spirits infallibility or that the names of the Elders and Brethren should not be put without a necessary conclusion deduced thence that the Decree there was therefore binding as being the Decree of a Synod and so exemplary for all Parliaments Councels Synods to make the like binding Decrees But good brother for all your punctuall quotations of that Scripture you doe not all this while tell us which is the main of all that which we find in the 28. verse of that chapter IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS TO LAY VPON YOU NO GREATER BVRTHEN THEN THESE NECESSARY THINGS Now brother we chalenge you to shew us any Parliament Councell Synod ever since the Apostles that could or can say thus IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS to determine controversies of religion to make and impose Canons to bind all men c. Shew this to us at this time and we will obey But if you cannot as you never can never let any man presse upon us that Scripture that Synod which hath no parallel in the whole world and so is no precedent pattern for any Councell Synod Parliaments Let me conclude with a passage of the learned and famous Chamierus that grand Antagonist of Bellarmins Bellarmine upon the same Scripture you alledge Act. 15. as also our late Prelates have usually done would deduce the same conclusion that you doe for humane authority in binding mens consciences To which Chamierus thus answereth that this consequence holds not Quia non eadem sit authoritas Apostolorum reliquorum Ecclesiae Pastorum Because there is not the same authoritie of the Apostles and of other Pastors of the Church For with those the Holy Ghost was extraordinarily present so as what they propounded did simply proceed of God But other Pastors have no such extraordinary assistance of the Spirit and therefore their Decrees are not to be paralleld with the Apostles Decrees Which is a speciall difference
it selfe To be plaine therefore though I know you to be a very Heluo librorum of vast indefatigable reading and to have a stomack proportionable of a strong digestion yet give me leave to tell you as my loving and beloved friend and brother that the subject you here deale with is not of so easie a digestion as that subitane or sudden apprehensions thereof may be wâ—ll said to be digested Strong meats you know taken downe liberally into the stomack doe require the longer time for a kindly digestion And a sudden digestion is apt to leave many indigested crudâ—â—ies ingendring malignant humours in the body You digest your apprehensions into considerable Questions as you call them to be solemnly debated by sober minds but passing along brother I find your Questions turned into your owne resolutions so as in stead of debating them by sober minded men you forestall them and tell us that these Independents as you style them are guilty of Arrogancy Schisme Contumacy and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences in case they shall not submit to such a publick Church-Government Rites Discipline as a Synod and Parliament shall conceive most consonant to Gods Word c. And all along your Queries are so digested by you as that they cast up a very ill sent if not rather a judiciall sentence against those Churches which not honoris causa you name Independents But we shall answer to the particulars as they come in order Thus much of your Proeme or Preface To your first Question Before I punctually answer this and so the rest of your Questions let me premise this as an {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which I must demand of you a due to my Profession that forasmuch as you are a learned Lawyer and able to speake much of Lawes and Customes of Nations and Churches and my selfe am a professor of Divinitie the Rules and Principles whereof are all of them laid downe in the Scripture unto which alone all Questions about Faith and Religion are so reducible and finally determinable as who so denieth this denieth the faith and is not to be disputed with as a denier of Principles therefore I require of you as a Christian brother to joyne issue with me in this point that all your Questions may be resolved by cleare Scriptures and reason evidently deduced from them and this with all brevitie and perspicuitie Now to your first question the summe whereof is Whether every severall Nation Republick and Nationall Church hath not under the Gospell a * liberty and latitude left them to chuse and settle such an orderly forme of Church-government Discipline and Ecclesiasticall Rites as is most suteable to their particular Civill government lawes manners customes being not repugnant to the word of God This being as I conceive a generally received truth among all Protestant Churches And whether some things in all Church-governments Discipline Ceremonies whatsoever are not and must not be left to humane prudence for which there is no direct precept nor pattern in sacred writ Which truth is assented to by all parties Churches whatsoever in theory or practice This is the substance of your first Question To which I answer And first to your quotation of the Harmony I will answer one for all Sect. 16. August Confessio 4. Traditiones de â—â—riis c. We condemne not Traditions of Holy-dayes of the Lords day of the Nativity of Easter and the rest for a politick end Here you see they put the observation of the Lords day among humane Traditions which I suppose you doe not approve Again they allow onely such observations as God by the Morall Law and the voyce of Nature it selfe commandeth And thirdly That humane rites be not imposed Ne conscientiae onerentur That mens consciences bee not burthened And in a word To shape Religion in point of Church-government Discipline Ceremonies to every Nation Republick Nationall Church and to Civill Government Lawes Manners Customes and so to humane Prudence as you say what is it but to shape a coat for the Moone Whereas the Scripture holds forth unto us but onely one forme of Church-government and Discipline which ought not to be altered according to the diversitie of humane Lawes and Customes in all Kingdomes and Common-weales as you affirme And whereas you make a proviso Alwayes provided every thing bee consonant and no way repugnant to the word of God To what purpose is this when the very liberty you give of altering Church-government and Discipline as may be sutable to humane Laws and Customes is it self repugnant and no way consonant to the word of God as we shall shew by and by This is transformare Ecclesiam in humanam politiam to transforme the Church into a humane Politie * Hae imaginationes omnibus aetatibus inde usque ab initio mundi nocuerunt Ecclesiae semper nocebunt These imaginations or fancies have in all ages from the beginning of the world hurt the Church and will alwayes huâ—t Thus the Harmony * Now brother whereas you seem to challenge us infallibly to evidence by any Gospel Text that Christ hath peremptorily prescribed one and the self-same form of Ecclesiasticall government Discipline Rites to all Nations Churches in all particulars from which they may in no case vary under pain of mortall sin schisme or being no true Churches of Christ with whom good Christians may not safely communicate First what evidence from Scripture can you bring why it should not necessarily be so You would seeme to make this a ground why Church-government Discipline Rites should be alterable according to the severall laws and customes of severall Nations Because say you Christ enjoyned the preaching of the Gospel to all Nations and People whatsoever who have their severall established defferent formes of Civill government Laws Manners Rules and Customes sutable to their respective dispositions Climes Republicks By this reason you might argue that therefore the Gospel it self may be preached variously according to the variation of the climate and if not so then say I neither is the Church-government and Discipline to be varied according to the diversity of Nations Laws Customes Climates For brother the Church-government and Discipline now in the time of the Gospel is a part of the Gospel as being the Gospel-government and Discipline of the Evan 〈…〉 l Churches And brother why should you think that Christ now under the Gospel or New Testament hath â—eâ—t a greater liberty to men to alter that form of Church-government and Discipline which in the New Testament is laid down then he did in the Old Testament under the Leviticall Law What a strict charge did this Law-maker give to Moses See saith he that thou do all things according to the pattern shewed thee in the Mount He must not vary one pin * But some will say When the Tribes of Israel were reduced under a kingly
of arrogancy schisme câ—ntumacy and lyable to such penalties as are due to these offences Good Brother be not so legall What if that resolution of an Assembly and that Generall Law for the confirmation of it be such as the conscience of godly people cannot without sinne submit thereunto Must they either violate their consciences or bee undone by your unavodable intolerable penalties as both to suffer in their good names for Arrogant contumatious Schismatickâ— yea and in their Consciences too under the guilt of these and to bee liable to I wot not what penalties besides and no waies to seeke an exemption from it Why good Brother if we should goe and live under the Turkish Government and could not in conscience turne Turkes in the Religion there by Law established yet there is a way to seeke an Exemption from it namely by becomming Tributary to that State as many Christians doe Good Brother let 's not have any of Dracoes Lawes executed upon Innocents And remember how not long agoe the Prelates served us we could not have the benefit of Law of Appeale no exemption from bloud letting and eare-cropping and pillorying c. And shall wee now turne worse persecutors of the Saints then the Prelates were Non ignara mali miseris succurrere disco saith that heathen Princesse But in the margent you put some places of Scripture to prove this But truly when I well view the places I find them not to answer to what you would seeme to prove by the Quotation The first is 1 Cor. 14. 32 33. For the Spirit of the Prophets is subiect to the Prophets And what of this Ergo the Spirit of all the Prophets in England must be subiect to the Prophets in the Assembly upon paine of being guiltie of Arrogancy Schisme Contumacy and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences O brother Prynne you must as well note as quote the place But let me note it for you The Apostle there speaks both to and of the Church of Corinth when assembled together in one place that the Prophets should observe order and give place each to other in Prophecying as the reason is rendered and not of any such Assembly of that sublime and supreame Authoritie or the onely Prophets to whom all other Prophets wheresoever dispersed must be subject Ver. 33. For God is not the Author of confusion but of peace as in all Churches of the Saints Which place also is no lesse wide from your purpose What Will there be no peace but all confusion unlesse all be subject to the Assembly upon such paine as before The Apostle speaks here of the Order to be observed in every Church as in all the Churches of the Saints The other places quoted by you are no lesse misapplyed Will they prove trow you blind obedience But come on brother if you will needs put us upon such hard exigents as to give us no quarter without present laying down our Armes and cause and so captivating our consciences to the Dictates and Decrees of men If you will make no covenant with us but upon this one onely condition that you might thrust out all our right eyes and if there bee no other remedy yet give us leave to capitulate with you about some terms of accomodation that wee may not altogether betray our consciences and liberties which our Redeemer Christ hath so dearly purchased for us And the first and main is this First brother make it cleare unto us that an Assembly of men learned pious what you will living in ages succeeding the Apostles have or ever had infallibility of judgement so as to say as Acts 15. 28. It pleased the holy Ghost and Us to make these Decrees that so wee may without further scruple of conscience submit and conforme thereunto But I say you must give us very good assurance and evidence hereof that they are infallibly guided by the holy Ghost that when they shall say It pleased the holy Ghost and Us we may safely believe them For when you can resolve us of their conclusions no further then as they conceive to bee consonant to the word of God Alas Sir you leave us in a Wood or Maze whence no extricating of our selves without Ariadnes thread Gods word to set us where wee were before For you knew what variety of conceits many men have Quot capita tot sententiae This is the first and main condition we stand upon and truly it were sufficient alone We might in a second rank but not equall to the former name a selfe-deniall and humble spirit c. You know the story of the Monkes of Bangor comming before Austin the first Archbishop of Canterbury whom they seeing to fit in his Pontificall Chaire and not rising up nor moving unto them they left him as a man noâ— sent of God And so if wee should behold men carrying themselves loftily over their brethren who are not of their Counsell we should be apt to suspect that Christs Spirit is not there because there is not the spirit of humility neither the Spirit of truth to be found A Cardinall in the Conclave at Viterbium after almost three yeares agitation about the election of a new Pope as many yeares as we have been about to set up a Reformation and the foundation not yet laid each Cardinall ambitiously a spiring to be the Pope one of them rose up and said Domine c. let us uncover the roose of this Chamber seeing the holy Ghost cannot get in unto us through so many tiles But this by the way And so enough of this question The third and fourth Questions I come now to your third and fourth question But lest my answers may prove too voluminous and so fastidious to everyday-newes Readers I shall in the rest contract my selfe And this I must doe by trussiâ—g up your questions within the list of a Syllogisme respectively For as I noted before all your questions are rather conclusive then interrogatory rather positive resolutions then unresolved questions The summe therefore of your third and fourth questions for this dependeth on that is reduced into this Syllogisme That which hath sufficient if not best warrant for it in the New Testament the examples of the Primitive Church c. most prevents heresies schismes injustice is to be received as a true and undoubted Church-Government and to be preferred before that which hath no such expresse warrant in Scripture no patterne for it in the Primitive or best reformed Churches c. But the Presbyteriall forme of Church-government if rightly ordered hath sufficient if not best warrant for it in the New Testament c. The Independent not so Therefore the former is to be preferred and received before the latter without any long debate The Answer Both your Propositions are lame and interfeere one against the other Sufficient if not best warrant will not prove so sufficient a warrant as if there be found a better
of Christ under his onely jurisdiction and government So as herby great mischiefes may redound even to the purest Church when once things come to be carried by the vote of a generall or Classicall Assembly of Divines swaying things besides the Rule and stretching them beyond their line And therefore famous was that saying of Nazianzens * That he never saw any good to come of generall Councels because commonly Camelion-like they change their hue with the nearest object complying with the condition of the present times and State as suppose Prelaticall Spirits should turne to be your Presbyterians or as when in case the Lord Christ shall resume his Kingdome over his Churches in a civill State we should perhaps see some of your Presbyterians as fast to turn Independants were the preferments sutable But some may object that one Church standing by it selfe is more subject to fall into errour then when combined with other Churches To which I answer That every particular Church injoying its own freedome without any injoyned combination with other Churches may much longer preserve it selfe from danger of errour when it hath its free choise in matters of difference or difficulty to consult onely with those Churches which it knows to be most sound and orthodox then when it is fast bound and incircled with this or that combination of Churches being in number twelve or twenty or more or lesse whose votes must carry every controversie according to the severall humours of such and such at all adventure And brother Prynne the world is not so plentifull of sound spirits as to supply every Hundred in the Land with twelve or twenty able and godly Ministers to be of a combination Nay you may observe what poore shifts are used for the supplying of places with godly and able Ministers which are grown so geason that the City now is faine to be supplyed with plundered countrey Ministers in stead of their out-cast Malignants And suppose all these to be as good as they should be where shall those country-places be supplyed And besides such is the penury of good Ministers if not of care to provide better if possible that such as are for their demerits cast out of one place are for I wot not what merits put upon some other people where their good qualities are not knowne Being such as verifie the Proverb {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} They change their mansion but not their manners And besides all this he is one very meanly gifted now adayes that will be wooed and won to take a Benefice under a hundred or sixescore pounds And brother why should godly Ministers indeed be yoked with such earth-wormes and Mammonists as are in some Parishes and as some of your Presbyterian combinations would necessitate us unto If you say if things goe amisse in lesser Classes they may be remedied in a generall Assembly then I say there is the like reason of a generall Assembly that there is of all the severall classes put together For totius partium eadem est ratio if all the members be corrupt so also must the whole body be Therefore the case must needs be hard when one or two Churches in a classis or combination that are sound should be bound to the decisions of the rest being unsound and so for the generall Assembly in the like proportion The fifth Question It is reduced thus That whose grounds and reasons tend inevitably to endanger overthrow and embroyle Ecclesiasticall or civill formes of Government ought not to be suffered But such is the Independent church-government it tends inevitably c. Therefore it ought not to be suffered I deny the Assumption The grounds and reasons of true church-government do not in their own nature tend to the indangering overthrowing and embroiling of Ecclesiasticall or civill formes of Government Horm confess sect. 11. of the confess of Aâ—spurg art 7. Power Ecclesiasticall no more hindreth the civill then the skill of musicke neither is it to be confounded with civill And ibid. They to wit the Prelates transforme the church into a humane Government For they would doe all in imitation of civill Government But if they produce any such effect it is onely accidentall and the maine cause is in such Ecclesiasticall or civill bodies when they shew some antipathy in their constitution to Christs kingdome and government by their opposing or oppressing of it Hereupon Christ saith * Think not that I am come to send peace on the earth I came not to send peace but a sword And it was the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdome both by Christ and his Apostles for which they were exclaimed against and persecuted as troublers of the State both Ecclesiastick and Politick as movers of sedition and perverters of the people and the like And will you thereupon conclude that the preaching of the Gospel and setting up of Christs kingdome in his churches is a troubler of the State and a mover of sedition and a seducer of the people because Hierarchicall Government hath an Antipathy with Christs Spirituall Kingdome and Church-government The sixth Question The summe where of is That which from the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel downwards till this present age had no being in the world can doubtlesse be no Church-Government of Christs or his Apostles But such say you is the Government of Independent Churches Therefore not Christs or the Apostles Church-government I deny your Assumption And for further answer thereto I referre you to my Answer to your third and fourth Question where is cleerely proved that all the Churches founded and planted by Christ and his Apostles were in themselves respectively absolute and free Churches which though they had communion with all their sister-Sister-Churches yet you can never prove your classicall or Synodicall Jurisdiction of either a Provinciall Church as you call it or a Generall Counsell over every particular Church to have the least footing or beeing at all in the Scripture 2. In the Ecclesiasticall Histories for the first 200. yeers we finde as was noted above sufficient ground for it but none for the combined coercive Presbytery let that be shewn afterwards indeed as times grow worse you finde your Pâ—râ—archall Metropoliticall Prelaticall Nationall Provinciall church-governments Generall and Provinciall councels subordination and subjection of the lesser Churches to the greater by which very meanes the Papall Antichristian kingdome came gradually to be erected as is noted before but can you shew us the least print of one footstep in the Word of God of any such Hierarchie or of any such subordination and subjection of one Church to another And if the mystery of iniquity began to worke even in the Apostles own times which was the very Hierarchie it selfe in the affection of Primacy as we see practised by Diâ—trepes who is noted to bee {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} a lover of Primacy or preheminence and
that even above the Apostle John himselfe with other like sutable practises This Mistery growing up and spreading mightily by degrees after the Apostles were dead and so prevailing as a generall deluge over the face of the earth as nothing could bee seene but Diocesan Bishops seas overflowing every where Therefore were there never such Churches extant But suppose there were no examples to be found of it in Church Story which yet we have proved the contrary neverthelesse you know brother when a mans evidences of lands are lost there be publicke Records as the Rowles of Chancerie where they may be found againe And if there they be found will you not allow them because the man cannot otherwise shew them Now we have the sacred Scripture where our Evidences are safely recorded Suffice it then that there we shew them The contrary opinion doth manifestly establish Traditions unwritten as the Papists doe And to give the Reader some intimation how the Churches of Christ came in time and that in short time after the Apostles to lose their liberties I crave leave of you to note that passage in Ambrose who lived within the fourth Century upon 1 Tim. 5. Synagoga postea Ecclesia c. The Iewes Synagogue and afterwards the Christian Church had Elders without whose counsell nothing was done in the Church Which by what neglect it grew out of use I know not unlesse is were perhaps the slâ—ath or rather pride of the Teachers whilst alone they would seeem to be some body So Ambrose the Bishop of Millan confessed I confesse I cannot shew many such instances or records as perhaps your selfe in your multifarious reading may observe But this one from such a reverend and ancient author too of pious memory may serve instead of many considering also that this is the greater rarity and antiquity and much to be wondred at how it escaped the expurgatorie Index by those that were the first fathers of the Mystery of Iniquity that they did not quite expunge this record also that not a pin of the old patterne should remaine Now that the Church this Ancient there speaketh of was particular Congregation answerable to the Synagogue governed by the Counsell of its own Elders cannot be denyed Whereby all men may cleerly see in how short a time the Governement of Churches instituted by Christ and his Apostles came to bee changed from being free Churches to become servile and subject to the usurpation of the greater the Prelates and their clergie now making up the Church as if the congregations themselves were no Churchs as being stripped of all their Rights and Priviledges yea and of Crist their King his Kingdome now being turned into an Oligarcy or Oligarchill Tyranny mixed of two of the worst forms of Government though you seem to put Oligarchy in the ranke of the the best but I suppose you would have said instead of Oligarchy having named Monarchicall and Aristocraticall Democratie Oligarchy being Heterogeneall to the other two But enough of this The seventh Question Thus reduced Those Churches which do not conforme their Church-government to some one or other publike forme of Civill Government dividing themselves into many Parochiall Churches Dioceses Provinces but doe gather Churches not out of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the Chiristian faith and do admit them into the Church by way of Covenant no one example or direct Scripture Reason or Authority can be produced to satisfie conscience of the lawfulnesse of them But such are the Independent Churches they do not conforme as afore Therefore conscience cannot be satisfied of the lawfulnesse of them The Argument or Question containes many branches scarce reducible to one head but I have bundled them in one coard as well as I could. And for answer first this Question is coincident with all that went before and so is already in that respect answered Secondly Your parallell betwixt the civill association and Ecclesiastick is not grounded on Scripture for neither God taught neither the Churches practised any such necessarie union and dependance of one Church on another though they might have done it and had need of it as being in times of persecution which hindered it not no more then it doth in France now 2. You confidently affirm that all Ecclesiasticall Histories testifie so much which is manifestly untrue as hath been shewed before 3. Though churches springing out of other churches had dependence on them what is this to churches that are far distant one from another and never had such a ground of relation one to another Besides the Harmonie of confessions which you quote for you though I finde not that in those places they say any thing to the point yet Sect. 11. cap. of the Keyes that the Keyes are committed to each particular even the least Ecclesiasticall Society Thirdy Christs true churches here on earth are not to be * limited to this or that place as because there are so many Parishes Dioceses Provinces in a civill State therfore those must be so many fixed Parocihall Diocesan Provinciall churches And here Brother Prynne would reduce tanquam ex postliminio the Provinciall Diocesan Parochiall church Government to the same forme it had before Would you have the Provinciall Arichbishops with their Diocesan Bishops and Parochiall clergie or Priests set up again For a Prouince hath relation to its Provinciall and a Diocese to its Diocesan and a Parish to speak in the old Dialect to its Parish-Priest Da veniam verbo And as for division of Provinces Dioceses and Parishes into so many churches you know where and when it began For in the yeer 267. Dyonisius Bishop of Rome made this division which division turned the churches into a Babylonish confusion when now all that dwelt together in every Parish and so in every Diocese who ever they were Tag and Rag must make up a church as so many members do one body whereas the churches planted by the Apostles were called and gathered out of the wide world where the Word of God came and took place So as not every citie became a church but so many as were called in every citie Paul writes not to all in Corinth but to the church there consisting of the Saints only But you object the gathering of churches not of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the christian faith of which forme of congregating churches you say you could never discern example or any direct Scripture to satisfie conscinces We would gladly say Amen to that assertion that the whole Nation is christian established in the faith but if not you dispute ex falso supposito May it please you then brother to take notice of the example both of John Baptist and of Christ himself and of the Apostles who * all of them did call and gather christian churches out of the Jewes church which might suffice to satisfie any mans conscience in this point and so
in all Christian Realmes States from their first reception of the Gospell till this present compared with twelve places of Scripture at the least c. Therefore there must be of necessity a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular Congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the Novell Independent Inventions Now for answer to this large Argument brieflly And first to the Proposition I deny that you can bring any infallible proofes or one proof that there either are or ever have been any Nationall Churches by any other institution but meerly humane nor any one of divine institution but onely that of the Jewes in the old Testament and now wholly dissolved of which we have spoken sufficiently before And which also was not onely Nationall but in a manner Oecumenick and universall as appeares Acts 2. and such therefore as I hope you contend not for now for then there would be a Pope as there was an high Priest then c. And brother you must give us leave to stand upon this as for our lives that we dare not admit of any Churches as the true and genuine Churches of Christ which are not of his owne institution that is such as are not called and gathered by the voyce of Christ in his word and by that Scepter of his swayed and by that alone Law of his governed And therefore be intreated good brother not to presse upon us such your Churches whose not onely institution in their severall divisions but government also in their combinations is meerly humane and therefore as a house founded on a sand which against a storme cannot stand You must first be able to found your Nationall Church in the Scripture or assure yourselfe if a man will build upon it a common Presbyteriall Classicall government and dwell there he will bring an old house upon his head when God shall begin to storm it But to come to your perticular instances in the Assumption for the proofe of your Nationall Church The first is the Catholicke Church throughout the world What is this to a Nationall Church Though the Catholick include all the true Churches throughout the world yet doth it not therefore conclude any Church to be Nationall The second instance is the Nationall Church of the Jewes and from hence you can conclude as little for your Nationall Churches as before we have shewed For bring us any one Nationall that is one intire Church or congregation as that of the Jewes was or that is of one family as that was or that is a type of Christs spirituall Kingdome as that was or that is the universall Church of God visible on earth as that was or that is governed by the like lawes that that was when your selfe doe confesse that the government of your Nationall Churches is to be regulated by humane Lawes Customes Manners and not by Gods word alone whereas that of the Jewes was wholly governed by Gods own Law and not at all by the Lawes of men untill it came to be corrupted contrary to the expresse Law of God And you confesse also that the government of your Nationall Churches is alterable according to the Lawes Customes Manners of severall Nations whereas the government of the Church of the Iewes was unalterable till Christ himselfe did put a period to that Oeconomy In a word your Nationall Churches are a mixed multitude consisting for the greatest part of prophane persons being as a confused luâ—p whereof there are nine parts of leaven to one of pure flowre so as the whole is miserably soured and the flowre made altogether unsavoury But that of the Iewes in its naturall and externall constitution was all holy an holy Nation a Royall Priesthood a peculiar People all the congregation holy every one of them So as in no one particular doe your Nationall Churches hold parallell with that of the Iewes no not in the least resemblance Your third instance is the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Elders and Brethren at Ierusalem Acts 15. who made and sent Binding Decrees to the Churches And what of this brother Therefore Nationall Churches or generall Councels or Provinciall have the like power to make and impose binding Decrees and send them to the Churches Why first of all that Assembly was not any Nationall Church representative Secondly neither was it a Generall or Provinciall Councell Thirdly being an Assembly of the Apostles with the Elders and Brethren it could not erre for the Apostles had infallibility of judgement being guided by the holy Ghost infallibly and the Elders and Brethren did assent to their determinations And was there ever such a Synodicall Assembly since that Had euer any Councell besides that infallibility of judgement Shew it brother and then wee will beleeve they may make Binding Decrees and wee will submit unto them Nay dare any Assembly of men on earth say It seemed good to the holy Ghost and Us That 's enough for the black mouth of blasphemy the Roman lying Oracle But in your second thoughts you traverse this * place more largely which wee shall consider when we come to it In the mean time what I have here and before said may suffice to stay the Readers stomace But you adde All this is seconded with all Occumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government throughout the world in all Christian Realmes States c. Alas brother all these put together are in no sort sutable to make a second to that Apostolicall Assembly they cannot hold the least proportion with it to make a second to that unsampled sample though they make never so great a summe And whereas you make the up-shot of this your question to the apparent sub version of Novell Independent Invention these be your words we have proved it to be neither mans Invention but Gods own institution nor Novell as having its foundation in the New Testament nor yet Independent otherwise then that it depends not upon any humane authority or jurisdiction out of it self not upon any such conformity to humane lawes or customes or manners of every Nation or people as you speake of Neither doe you take away our Argument from the most usuall phrase of the Apostles calling the Churches in the plurall by saying Historians often speake of the Churches in England for they doe not so speak when they mean the congregations but the material Temples but speake of England as one Church when they understand the people and there hath not been shewen any dependence of those Churches as the dependency of the English Churches is knowne The ninth Question Thus reduced in summe That liberty which the Apostles had and used in ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons c. for the Churches peace and welfare they transmitted to posteritie But the Apostles had and used such liberty c. Therefore the same liberty have all Churches in the world in all ages succeeding the Apostles in
ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons for the Churches peace and welfare I answer to the Proposition 1. That the Apostles themselves had no other libertie to doe any thing about the calling planting ordering and regulating of Churches but what they had immediarely given them by Christ and his Spirit 2. This liberty so given them reached no further then to those things onely which were given them in charge and which they accordingly as faithfull Stewards did practise concerning the Churches Even as Christ himselfe being the Son of God and set over his house was faithfull in all things doing nothing but what he had by speciall Commission and Command from the Father So as if the Son himselfe God blessed for ever took not the liberty to himself to doe what himselfe pleased as Mediator though as the Sonne he thought it no robbery to be equall with God the Father but did every thing as he had received commandment from him how much lesse have the servants of God any liberty to doe what pleaseth them but that and those things alone which they have in command from their Master If therefore they who prosesse to succeed the Apostles in their severall generations will challenge the same liberty which the Apostles had and used about the Churches of God they must first of all shew us their immediate Commission from Christ as the Apostles had Secondly They must all shew us that what they doe in Church-matters under colour and pretence of Apostolicall liberty is none other but what they have by expresse command from Christ by his Spirit And thirdly because they are not able to shew this they must use their liberty no further then the lists and limits of Scripture doe permit which holds forth an exact and perfect rule for all precisely to observe without the least variation As knowing that severe law of God often used in Scripture and wherewith as with a bounder-stone the whole Book of God is closed up and that with a solemne protestation of Christ himselfe If any man shall adde unto these things God shall adde unto him the plagues that are written in this book And if any man shall diminish ought thereof God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the Holy Citie But some will haply object This is meant not in point of Church-government Discipline Rites Ceremonies as left to mans liberty to ordaine adde supply institute according to the diversity of the lawes and customes of every Nation but in matter of Doctrine Story and Prophecy To which I answer though sufficiently noted before and now in one word if God were so exact about the forme of the Tabernacle a type of Christs Church under the Gospell to have all things observed according to the Patterne even unto the least pin what reason can any reasonable man give why Christ the same Law-giver and patterne it selfe should be lesse carefull over his Church in the New Testament so as to leave it at six and seven to the liberty of all Kingdomes and Nations of the world to set up in the Church what Government Discipline Rites Ceremonies Canons they pleased upon what pretence soever as for the Churches peace and welfare Hath not the opening of this one sluce let in such an Inundation of all manner of humane inventions in this kind as hath wel-nigh drowned the whole world in all manner of superstition and errour Therefore my deare brother Prinne assure your selfe not all the wits not all the learning in the world will be able to assert this your assertion but that it must of necessity fall to around with its owne weight and there brother let it lie or father die and bury it there whence it came All that Christ appointed is exactly to be followed though Christ was not so â—â—act in circumstantials under the Gospell because 1. That was a typicall and figurative worship 2. Christ now looks more to substantialls Joh. 4. 24. wherein he is more strict 1 Cor. 5. And where you say that as in the Apostles times Christians multiplied so also their Churches Church-Officers and their Church-Government Discipline varied Consider that here was no variation of the Rule but by degrees the rule of Church-government and Discipline was perfected not varied The Temple was seven yeares in building first hewing squaring then erecting stone after stone timber after timber each in his proper place here was no variation of the frame and forme of the Temple all this while but the worke went up day by day till it came to perfection according to the patterne in writing given to David by the Spirit Even so while the spirituall Temple is framing the daily goings up of it by order after order and rule after rule is no variation but a graduall tending to perfection till all be finished as we now see the whole frame of Church-government for all true Evangelicall Churches so compleated in the New Testament as nothing under the paine aforesaid may either be diminished or added to it And the same Orders are prescribed to all the Churches So ordaine I in all Churches saith the Apostle 1 Cor. 7. 17. So for the collection for the Saints and for the first day of the weeke for publick meetings as before the same order he gives to the Church of Corinth which he doth for the Churches of Galatia 1 Cor. 16. 1 2. So Officers chosen and ordayned in every Church Act. 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5. 7. So as if one Church for the smalnesse of it have fewer Officers and another Church for the largenesse of it more in number as the Church in Jerusalem had need of seven Deacons both for the magnitude of the Congregation and the multitude of the poore therein Act. 6. yet this makes no variation in the forme of Church-government as differing one from another either for substance or circumstance saving onely socundum magis minus as a little man is a man as well as the tallest man In a word those Arguments which you by way of derision set downe in your owne forme of words with their Ergoes for as much as they are of your own devising I therefore leave them with you to consider better of them Onely one I cannot passe by without wrong to Christ to his word to his Spirit to his Apostles Every man say you in his Infancy is borne destitute of Religion of the use of speech reason understanding faith legs c. Ergo He ought to continue so when he is growne a man Yet this is the maine Argument of some Independents say you O brother Of what Independents As whence this Argument Because they hold that in nothing they ought to swerve from the exact Rule Gods Word for the government of Churches And doe you compare the Scripture as it was in the Apostles time to a child in his Innocency destitute c So as if we will not transgresse the bounds of Scripture for
Reason Because it is Antichristian to deny Iesus to bee the Christ that is the onely King Priest and Prophet of his Church Hee is an Antichrist that denieth any of these three Offices But to deny Christ to be the onely King of his Church is to deny him in one of his Incommunicable Offices And they thus deny Iesus to bee the Christ that place man with Christ in his throne that set humane Lawes and Customes of all Nations cheek by jowle with the Word of God Here Jesus is denied to be the Christ I could here adde many more reasons to those but these may suffise that you may see there bee some Reasons which your Independents can produce and those so solid as the Gates of hell shall not prevaile against But say you if we thus claime exemption from such binding Decrees of men in the matters of Christ and that in point of conscience then may also Papists Anabaptists and all other â—ects claim the like exemptiens upon the like grounâ—s Brother for that I hope you will put a difference between orthodox Churches and heâ—erodox But I say againe for any mans conscience bee it never so erroneous as that of Papists yet certainly the conscience of such simply considered in it selfe nor you nor any man in the world hath any thing to doe further then to instruct and admonish and labour to enforme and iectifie enforce it you may not But shall we tolerate Popery and so idolatry in our Land I answer â—t is one thing to tolerate Popery and Idolatry publickly in a land and another to tolerate a man in his Conscience Magistrates may not tolerate open Popery and Idolatry to be set up in the land but the conscience oâ— a Papist they are no masters or judges of If the Civill Magistrate see any of Gods Commandements actually violated hee beareth not the sword for naught evill actions he must punish but hee hath no power over the conscience of any to punish a man for that so long as he makes no open breach of Gods Commandements or the just lawes of the Land And so in the rest And brother in your twelfth Question you confesse so much reproving but how justly you Independents for censuring the very hearts and spirituall estates of others and alleadging that Scripture that forbids men to judge because God onely knows mens hearts Now brother that which you deny to others as to bee judges of mens hearts and spirituall estates why will you either assume it to your selfe or attribute it to others by placing them in Christâ— throne and thereby displacing Christ himselfe As the Apostle saith Who art thou that judgest anothers servant To his Master he standeth or falleth Much more who art thou that judgest Gods servant And ver. 10. And why dost thou judge thy brother Or why dost thou set at â—aught thy brother We shall all stand at the Iudgement seâ—t of Christ Christ therefore is the â—ole Iudge oâ— every mans conscience even hee alone that is the Iudge of quicke and dead And brother let me put it to your Conscience Doe you think it equall that either your conscience should be a rule of mine or mine of yours And if no one mans conscience may be the rule of anothers certaâ—nly neither may all the mens consciences in the world be the Iudge of any one mans 2 How ever we finde neither rule example nor reason from Scripture to force men to Religion originally ye the Râ—bins say if man kept the seven precepts of Noah hee might not bee forced further The eleventh Question Concerning this question it containeth in it nothing but grievous invectives against the way you call Independent You call it a Seminary of Schismes and dangerous divisions in Church State So did Tertullus the â—ews Advocate against Paul charge him for a pestilent fellow and a mover of sedition among al the Iews throughout the world Acts 24. 5. You pretend to ponder it in the ballance of Scripture or right reason but you neither shew us Scripture not right reason to ballance it in You call it a Floodgate to let in an Inundation of herefies errors sects libertinisme and lawlesnesse without means of suppressing them when introduced For this you bring Mr. Williams his bloody tenent Now suppose him or his booke hereticall will you make the way of Christ so too There was one Judas a traitor shall therefore all the rest of the Apostles or their Apostolicall calling be so too You alleadge also Anabaptisticall â—ntinomian hereticall Athâ—ishicall opinions as of the Soules mortality Divorce at pleasure will you therefore father all these upon Châ—ists Kingly government In Luthers time â—undry heresies sprung up was Luther therefore either the cause or occasion of them Doe we not know that Mothes are bied in the parest cloth And the dunghills send forth strongest savours when the Sunne shines hottest Is either the cloth the proper cause of the moth or the Sunne of the stinking vapour Never greater errors have bin then since the Gospell hath clearly shined forth True it is indeed that thâ—se divisions and diversities of opinions are with bleeding hearts to be bewailed But shall the Gospell of the Kingdome beare the burthen of all This were as with the Christians in Rome in Neroes time when any judgement of God fell upon the City he would still imâ—â—â—e it to the Christians and punish them for it But we are taught better When the good Husband-man sowed pure wheat in in his field the enemy came and superseminaâ—ed tares shall wee therefore blame the wheat because the tâ—res come up with them But that you impuâ—e to this way libertinisme and lawlesnesse Good brother consideâ— are we Libertines or are wee lawlesse Nay may wee not herein plead for our selves that in all things we indeavouâ— to conforme ouâ— selves wholly to the law of Christâ— and if many thing we offâ—nd juâ—â—ly any just law oâ—â—hâ— lâ—nâ— wee reâ—uâ—e not to suffer Only brother leâ— not â—aâ— Impeâ—iall Edict be revived that if any confessed themselves to be Christians they should be put to death so such as you call 〈…〉 should for this very name suffer As Tertullian said Nomen proâ—â—â—iâ—ine when the very name of Christian was taken for a crime â—nd for meanes of suppressing errors what meanes could suppresse those many errors that sprung up to the successive ages oâ— the Church Was not the word of God the onely meanes and not humane power yea humane power is as well a meanes to maintain heresies as to suppresse them You know what Constantine and his sonne did to maintain the Arrian heresie And orthodox Independent Churches are as good means as any other together with the care and countenance of the Magistrate if it may be had to defend them and inable them to send forth labourers without which the Presbytery will bee as barren breast and womb as any other The twelfth Question The sundry passages of
each Congregation I am sure your Congregations admit neither augmentation nor diminution but according to the capacitie of every Parish 2. Within what precincts Christs Churches are not limited either to place or number 3. What set Stipends allowed Sufficient more or lesse 4. When and where Churches should assemble For when at times convenient For where Not necessarily in this or that place 5. Who shall prescribe extraordinary times of fasting or thanksgiving to them upon just occasions If the occasion be the Churches peculiar Interest the Church agrees upon the time But if it be publick concerning the Politick body of the State whereof we are native members in whose weale or woe we sympathize either we keep dayes of our own appointment extraordinary or if the Civill State command and appoint a day we refuse not to observe it 6. Who shall rectifie their Church-Covenants Discipline Censures Government if erroneous or unjust First Each Church useth her best meanes left her of Christ within her selfe Secondly If need require she useth the help of Sister-Churches Thirdly If any other as the Civill State be not satisfied shee * refuseth not to yeeld an account of her actions being required 7. Shew us say you a sufficient satisfactory Commission from Gods Word for all they doe or desire before they gather any Churches Brother Prynne you say you will pump out our thoughts yea it seemes you will exanclate pumpe out every drop that is in us But stay brother you are not yet a Magistrate And 2. wee hope you will not take up againe the Oath ex Officio to pump out all our secrets And 3. Though I have for my part dealt very freely with you as my brother all along yet give me leave to keep a Reserve Doneâ— ad Triarios redieritres untill it come to a dead lift in case we shall be brought before * Princes and Rulers to give an account of what we doe or desire And 4. you put us upon too unreasonable a taske to satisfie you in all that we DOE or DESIRE First make your particular exceptions and demands for this or that and then we shall know the better how to shape you an Answer as you see we have here done What are all your books of Law cases all the Volumes of the Casuists to the resolution upon general grounds of incident matters which could not be ruled till they happened and yet the Government of States is one and the doctrine of the Scripture in all generally necessary poynts cleare And we desire you not too too much to grow upon us when you see we are so coming and free The fourth Interrogatory This is much like the next before For that was about Ministers power to gather Churches this concerning the peoples power in uniting themselves in a Church choosing their Minister erecting such a Government as they conceive most sutable to the Scripture And so all manner of hereticks may set up Churches and all manner of heresies sects be brought in I answer as before A Church is a Citie of God which by her Charter becomes a Citie being called of God and by the same Charter the Scripture chuseth her own Officers and sets up no other government but what her Charter prescribes If any other doe otherwise and doe pervert the Scripture it is not to be imputed to the Church of Christ Her liberties are no law for others licentiousnesse It was so in the Apostles times and the next ages after The true Churches liberties were no true cause of so many heresies no more then the Christians of old were the cause of the calamities of the Citie or Empire of Rome because Nero and other Tyrants falsly charged them and as injuriously dealt with them Nor may we cast away the priviledges of Christians because others abuse them Yea whether we use our priviledges or no errours and heresies will be The Apostles and Apostolick Churches could neither keep nor cast them out as is shewed before But brother where you say that if this liberty of setting up an Independent Church-government be admitted then by the selfe-same reason they must have a like libertie to elect erect what Civil forme of government they please to set up a new Independent Republick Kingdome c. By the selfe-same reason Surely by no reason at all Shew us a reason hereof and take all And you know that Republicks Kingdomes are Independent though not of Churches electing erecting It is unsatisfiable injury and extreame irrationality thus to argue for hath Christ given the same command to his people as such who are not of this world nor their Kingdome as he hath done to them in spirituals which he commands them to practise whosoever forbids 2. They set up no forme but take that which is prescribed which God hath not done in civill government but left it free 1 Pet. 2 Rom. 13. The fifth Interrogatory Herein you make a comparison between Presbyteriall and Independent Churches Why not that as well as this And if this why doe we not shew solid proofe of it I answer We desire to enjoy ours without making comparison with yours For proofe we have shewed sufficient Then to a second Quere the answer is not the Minister alone nor the Congregation alone but both together admit members and set up Christs Government not their own And how ever you make us a Conventicle consisting of inconsiderable ignorant members I beleeve brother Prynne when you shall have any thing to doe with the most contemptible of such Conventicles as you esteeme us you will not altogether find us such as you are pleased to terme us And for Nationall Parliaments States wee honour them with whatsoever honour is due unto them as Gods * Word commandeth us And for a Nationall Councell as this is called to advise not to be peremptory Judges in the matters of God over our consciences wee detract not their due honour too as they are pious and learned men 2. Where you would have them have the same power in a Parliament and Synod that they have in a Church if they be members it is answered that all power is restrained to its own sphere and place so that we may have a greater power in another kind and yet not that as no Parliament man hath the power of a Master of a family in the Parliament though he have a greater The sixth Interrogatory This Interrogatory hath sundry branches the answer whereunto respectively will intimate what they be 1. Wee say as before None of our Ministers doe by any usurped authoritie gather Churches 2. We cannot conceive that any law of the Land is against the setting up of Christs kingdome in the hearts of his people and in those Congregations called and gathered by the voyce of his Word Nor doth the Ministery of Christs word more in this then it did by John Baptist Christ himselfe and his Apostles when they called Christian Congregations out of the Jewes Nationall Church
serve for Christ will not have his people to be wandring sheep when they may have a fold nor to be individua vaga when they may be reduced to order The ninth Interrogatory This Interrogatory lays a charge upon Independents for refusing to admit to the Lords Supper such as are not notoriously scandalous nor grossely ignorant but professe repentance c. which you say is a very uncharitable arrogant yea unchristian practise contrary to Christs own example in admitting Iudas to the Lords Supper Also to that of Paul 1 Cor. 11. you calling it also a transcendent straine of tyrannicall usurpation over soules and consciences and Gods Ordinances worse then our most domineering Lordly Prelates c. yea Lording over Christ himselfe and more then ever the Apostles did but onely by their extraordinary calling c. I answer in one word omitting your copious aggravations and sharp censures that we look further then to a generall profession and conversation namely to their faith in Christ that it be sound intire and whole and namely whether they hold him to be as the onely Prophet and High Priest so the onely Prince of his People the onely Lord and Lawgiver to every mans conscience and over every Congregation or Church of his Saints If they thus acknowledge not Christs kingly office as well as his other offices we doe not we dare not receive them And what have they to do with the seales that refuse by covenant to own Christ for their King As for Judas he received the sop not the supper for after the sop he went out * immediately saith John So as it appeares the other Evangelists relate some other passages by a hysteron proteron as is not unusuall in Scripture story And none of them saith that he received the Supper And suppose â—e did the Churches Censure had not yet past upon him onely John by a secret signe knew he was to be the traytor For that of the Apostle 1 Cor. 11. 28. that was a true Church though now disordered and the Apostle refers the redressing of their abuses to themselves The case is otherwise here so as all your accumulated calumniations fall to ground And concerning the Apostles extraordinary calling if we must expect the like calling we must not in the meane time admit of any either to Baptisme or to the Lords Supper neither should there be any gathering of Churches at all as some from hence doe gather Besides what shall the authority be that Luther gathered the Churches by and those that followed him and what lawfull gathering then have the Reformed Churches For your marginall note of Moses David Solomon about setling Religion by Gods own direction herein you come home to that I said before alledged against your unlimited law But in that you now restraine by their example all Church-government to the Civil Magistrates you must make it out by holding close to the rule that is To settle Religion by Gods own direction as you here confesse and not to elect erect a forme of Religion and Church-government such as they shall conceive sutable c. as before you told us And Moses David Solomon were all types of Christ who put an end to all such And while you there exclude the Priests from having any thing to doe in Reforming or advising What will the Assembly say to you But they may advise you will say But the Priests might do nothing but according to Gods prescript law no more then Moses David Solomon And if the Priests as you say had no ruling votes then by this reckoning what votes do you allow the Assembly-men in their mixt Committees with the members of Parliament or in the Assembly it selfe Reconcile these I pray you The tenth Interrogatory This Interrogatory questions or rather as all the rest concludes that that Text Mat. 18. 15 16 17. is not meant of any Ecclesiasticall censure as of Excommunication but onely of the civill Court of Justice Brother if you did speake hereas a Divine and not meerly as a lawyer you would not have against the judgment of most learned Divines ancient and modern and not Papists c. so interpreted this place And what speak I of Divines The Text it selfe is its own clearest Interpreter For it is immediatly added v. 18. Verily I say unto you whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall bee loosed in heaven Which is without controversie spoken of Church-censure or of the power of the Keyes in exercising Church-discipline as that Matth. 16. 19 is spoken of doctrine as the learned Calvin well observeth So as this very context cleareth the former to bee meant of Church-censure as it was among the Jewes You alledge on the contrary that learned Lawyer whom wee all honour for his learning Good brother I could wish that all this zeale of yours against Independents might not arise from any jealousie as if Church-censures should prejudicate or trench upon your pleadings at the Barre of civill justice Farre be it that we should have our motion beyond our own Spheare Content your self with your own Orb and we shall confine our selves to ours I dare warrant you Again to what purpose do you urge this interpretation of this Text against us Do not all the Presbyterians expound it so And if this Text which is made the great pillar of Presbyterian excommunication be taken off you leave no more to a Classis then we scil. to consult and advise And with this foot you have dashed all the milk you gave them The eleventh Interrogatory This Interrogatory is to perswadeus that in that Assembly or Evangelicall Synod as you call it Acts 15. the Apostles voted not as they were Apostles infallibly guided by the holy Ghost but rather as they were in their ordinary capacitie as Elders and chiefe members of it Whereupon producing your six reasons for it you peremptorily conclude that this is an undeniable Scripture-authority for the lawfulnesse use of Parliaments Councels Synods under the Gospel upon all like necessary occasions and for their power to determine controversies of Religion to make Canons in things necessary for the Churches peace and concernment maugre all evasions exceptions of Independents to elude it But let us examine your six reasons why the Apostles sate not as Apostles but as ordinary Elders c. Where first we lay this ground for the contrary scil. that they sate as Apostles because not ordinary Elders as Elders can say It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us But the Apostles as Apostles might say so because in any doctrinall point they had the promise of the Spirit to bee led into all truth as upon whom the Church was to bee built Eph. 2. 20. Secondly if they sate as ordinary Elders then their decrees did no further bind then as they might appeare to agree with Scripture otherwise Elders as Elders may bind the conscience let the decree bee
much the more when they consider this is a time of Reformation and we have all taken a covenant each to go before other in reforming not only our selves but all others within our line according to the word of God And again the case between our Reformation at this time and that of the Jewes church is much alike For as th a was the Gospell-Reformation so is this as that was a gathering of such churches out of that of the Jewes as acknowledged Christ to be their onely King and Law-giver to govern consciences and churches by his Word when the rest of that church even the main body of it did reject Christ and renounce him for their King this being the very Title set over him on his crosse for which they crucified him So the preaching up of Christs Kingdome in these dayes is that which calleth and gathereth those unto Christ who acknowledge him alone for their King to govern them and this out of those that doe not or will not submit unto his Kingly government but depend upon the sole determination of men what kinde of church-governement they will set up in the Land which you tell us must be sutable to the lawes and customes of the Realme and manners of the people But there is yet one thing more for which you say you can see no ground and that is particular church-government Why brother why should the lawfulnesse of this be doubted whether explicit or implicit It is the churches wisedome and care yea conscience and duty too as we humbly conceive to admit of none but such as can give some account of the worke of grace wrought in them though but in the least degree yet in truth so far as we may discern them to be Saints for such onely are fit members of a church or body of Christ so as to partake of those holy Ordinances of Christ which none but visible Saints ought to partake of And who are fit to receive the Seales of the covenant but such as professe to be in covenant And surely if any shall refuse to make this profession of their being in covenant as being ashamed thereof with what conscience can the Church admit them into fellowship And you know this is a time of Reformation and we have long been under a yoke of Antichristian-government and of humane ordinances in the worship of God wherein we have all violated our vow and covenant made in our names in our Baptisme Now doth not reason require that we should renew our covenant in our own persons when we come to enter into the way of Reformation and that in as full a manner as possibly we can And when the people of God came out of Babylon to inhabit Ierusalem again they made a covenant among themselves when seeking the way with their faces thitherward they say Come and let us joyn ourselves to the Lord in a perpetuall covenant that shall not bee forgotten The case is ours in a great measure who are now inquiring the war to Sion with our faces thitherward and shall we be abashed to come to Sion from all the reliques of Babylon and not incite one another as they did to enter into a perpetuall covenant with the Lord Christ as our onely King not to be forgotten And the like wee read Ezra 10. 5. and Nehem. 9. 38. so did King Asa 2 Chron. 15. 12. Now if any require an example hereof in the New Testament I answer what needs it when wee have it in the Old What example have we in the New Testament for baptizing of Infants Yet having a commandement in the Old for circumcising the Infants of beleeving Abraham as being included in the same covenant with faithfull Abraham the intaile of this Covenant never yet out off but reaching to all Abrahams seed walking in the steps of Abrahams faith now under the Gospel infants of beleeving parents professing to be in covenant have the same right unto baptisme as being within the covenant which the infants of beleeving Abraham had unto circumcision in stead whereof baptisme by Gods institution succeeded and this by a strict charge and command from God Gen. 17. 13 14. which is as strong now for baptizing of Infants of beleeving parents as it was to the infants of beleeving Abraham for circumcision Again what example yea or precept is there of giving women the Lords Supper in the New Testament yet upon good consequence it is drawn from thence But this by the way And to conclude this point what reason can any man bring against this particular Church-covenant And if any doe disrelish it they are onely such as take a disgust of the way itselfe and then no marvell if every thing about it be quarrelled and questioned though no other reason can be given of it but a Nolumus such as the Jewes gave when they said of Christ Nolumus * We will not have this man to reigne over us Which speech was the more notorious as being delivered by an Embassage a solemne act of State of the Eldership and they his own Citizens though a little after vers. 27. he declares them his enemies and for this very thing that they would not hee should reigne over them commandeth them to be brought and slaine before him But this by the way though not unworthy of wise mens sad observation Object But it will be said wee have covenanted already in the Nationall Covenant Answ. This is against things upon supposition that we were convinced of the evill of them but not about our own persons as enquiring whether we indeed are willing to give up ourselves to the Lord Iesus 2. This was put in by such outward authority that many for feare tooke it which a Church-covenant under the Gospell where the people are to be such as come willingly will not beare for under the Law indeed there was another order but appointed by God that they might be forced to the covenant that they had received in their fathers but our fathers were over-awed and secondly no such order now The eighth Question This question though somewhat involved and perplexed with many branches yet the scope being to prove a Nationall Church and so a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular congregations persons ought to be subordinate and thereby an apparent subversion of the Novell Independent invention These are your words The whole I reduce into form thus Where there bee infallible proofes of Nationall Churches there of necessity must be a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the NOVEL INDEPENDENT INVENTION But there be infallible proofes of Nationall Churches as the Catholick Church the Nationall Church of the Jewes the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Acts 15. who made and sent binding decrees to the Churches seconded with all Oecumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government exercised throughout the world