must first bee assured that it is the Bryde which speaketh and not a masked Harlot vnder that name As for your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie where-vpon by accusing Scripture you would build an excuse of seeking some other Rule it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD and is also in it selfe sophisticall It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD in that CHRIST commanding to search Scripture for a cleare witnessing of Him the holie Ghost affirming by Peter that the word of Scripture is a sure and shyning word by Paul that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse to everie good worke and exhorting all men praysing in all men the diligent reading and meditation there-of there-by to discerne spirites and to prooue what is propounded vnto them that David al-most all-where speaking so divinelie of the playnnesse and power there-of as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes Yet some of your men Philomathes are not ashamed disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule and a Nose of Waxe as if the Almightie and only wyse GOD had not eyther wysely anough or lovinglie provyded for the direction of His House and that men forsooth will or can finde out a more cleare and certayne way But what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture or howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men might appeare to make it by their diversitie of Interpretations yet this should ever haue religiouslietyed vs there-to that our LORD hath left it vs for a Lanterne to our Feete and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth studying therefore with all humilitie cleannesse of heart and earnest prayer to attayne the knowledge there-of and not proudlie and rebelliouslie to take such counsell as did Israell in the Wildernesse Wee know not what is become of this Moses make vs therefore gods to goe before vs. The advyse of Augustine is much more both sound and sober than is that of your Church-men That in reading of Scripture if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense and meaning of the place at least let vs not expound that place of Scripture in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth So shall wee bee lyke to a man who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way yet hee wandreth in the Fields leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee I affirmed Philomathes that your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie was also Sophisticall and thus I cleare it All reason of obscuritie must bee eyther in the matter it selfe or in the manner of delyverie or in the weaknesse of their perception to whome it is delyvered Of divine thinges wee acknowledge that how-so-ever for most reall and constant existence they bee of all thinges the most certayne yet that for their retyred eminencie to all creatures of all thinges the most obscure But for the manner of deliverie as GOD in holie Scripture hath revealed them we affirme that all the wisdome and eloquence of all creatures even in a conceived matter could never haue found out so playne a manner or so farre and lovinglie haue attempered it to the capacitie of man as in so high mysteries and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth was possible And yet how-so-ever they bee thus delivered wee acknowledge that no naturall man and naturall onlie is capable of them For they are spirituallie discerned But the spirituall man by the Spirit of GOD in him will discerne the things of GOD. To reason then from the naturall obscuritie or retyred eminencie of the matter to the manner of deliverie or from the weaknesse of man's perception to conclude of the manner of deliverie or from the perception of the naturall man to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication We are bolde to say with the holie Ghost That how-so-ever to most part of men the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables that hearing they may heare and not vnderstand and seeing they may see and not perceiue Yet That Who-so-ever doeth the will of the FATHER they will knowe the Doctrine whether it bee of GOD or whether men speake of them-selues That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe knowe His Voyce and knowe the voyce of a Stranger Wee avouch That the wordes of Wisdome are all playne to him that will vnderstand and straight to him that will finde Knowledge That Scorner seeketh Wisdome and findeth it not but Knowledge is easie to him that will vnderstand So as if the Trueth bee hid it is hid to them whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out and whom GOD justlie eyther for misregard or pryde of mynde hath given over to the efficacie of Errour to groape even at noone day Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection of diversitie of Interpretation against this for how-so-ever manie particular places in Scripture appeare still difficill and doubtfull to vs which but know in part and prophesie in part yet wee affirme with Augustine That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture are all things to bee found which contayne Fayth and Rules of living and that nothing almost is ripped out of the most obscure parts which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken Philomathes To grant you even all that you haue sayde either of the plainnesse or plentifulâ—…esse of holie Scripture yet what shall you gaine there-by against our Questioner or how shall you justifie the imputations of want of Care Skill or Conscience layde on him by you seeing both our Church confesseth that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church and such Notes as are heere brought by our man hee prooveth them all from Scripture Eubulus How eyther proper or pertinent your Poet's Markes are which hee bringeth and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture or other-wayes wee shall see GOD willing in the particular examination of each where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe and that carelessie skillessie or fraudfullie hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke to seduce the simple with Topicall showes You say your Church acknowledgeth that by Scripture the true Marks of the Church are knowne But Philomathes they fall never to say so but when they are reduced to such straits as eyther they must say it or bee snared For their common Doctrine is well anough knowne which can so little consist with this which you haue now granted as the one evidentlie over-throweth the other For doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage as that therefore onlie you are sure such such to be canonicke Scriptures because the Church hath so determined Thus monstrouslie you make one and the same to bee both the Mother and the Daughter and of one Philomathes But thus you taxe Augustine no lesse than vs who affirmeth that hee would not belieue Scripture if the authoritie of the Churh did
true Church and the Synagogue of Satan calling themselues Iewes and yet are not And who for concluding of this would bring the common notes of that hee were a doting Divine and a no lesse ridiculous Logician than hee who for discerning a man from a beast would bring the common properties of a living creature for how-so-ever the common notes of Christians good or bad of Orthodox or Heretickes of CHRIST or Antichrist will distinguish the common bodie in which all these are from Forraigners yet to discerne betwixt the true bodie and the inherent evill betwixt lawfull and adulterous worship betwixt the Bryde and the pretending Whoore both of them in though not both of the bodie there is none other sure note or marke of discretion but the Scriptures onlie When you shall see sayeth Chrysostome vngodlie Heresie which iâ—… the Armie of Antichrist standing in the holie places of the Church then let them who are in Iudea flee to the Mountainest that is they who are of Christianitie dresse them-selues to the Scriptures because from that Heresie hath once obtayned place in the Churches there can bee no tryall of true Christianitie neyther anie other refuge for Christians willing to know the veritie of the Fayth but the divine Scriptures And in that same place Before manie wayes were shewed which was the Church of CHRIST but now no manner of way hut by the Scriptures For sayeth the same Chrysostome or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect worke vpon Matthew if men looke to ought else they shall stumble and perish not vnderstanding which is the true Church and shall fall there-by in the abhomination of desolation which standeth in the holie places of the Church Wee thinke it not equitable sayth Basilius that such custome of speach as hath taken place with them should bee helde for a Law and Canon of right Doctrine for if custome were of force anough to prooue right Doctrine wee might also imitate them heere-in Let vs stand therefore to the decision of Scripture inspyred from GOD and with whome are found heades of Doctrine consonant to the divine Oracles let Veritie bee al-to-gether adjudged vnto them Non oportet sayeth Ireneus quaerere apud alios veritatem cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis that is Wee must not seeke Trueth else-where seeing the Apostles haue most plentifullie as in a rich Store-house put together all thinges that belong to Trueth Non haec autilla sayeth Augustine alteri parti suspecta objiciantur sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae that is Let not such things bee objected as are suspected of eyther partie but let the common Armour the Scriptures bee taken I might bring manie moe such Testimonies of the Fathers where-by your man his vnnecessarie nycenesse Philomathes in making so great a Question how Trueth and the true Church may bee discerned from Lies and hereticall companies bewrayeth evidentlie what vpright affection hee hath eyther to fynde the true way him-selfe or to leade others there-in Philomathes When all that you haue sayde is granted so as not onlie those be the true Sheepe which heare CHRIST His voyce but that His voyce also bee determined to bee the holie Scriptures yet the Question remaineth vnsolved For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church and professe the hearing of CHRIST His voyce so doe they all alleadge Scripture for them And this was not obscurelie implyed in the Question in that all rehearse the common Creede so as nothing appeareth to bee yet brought of you which will rid the Debate Eubulus To this I answere First al-be-it all pretende Scripture yet all pretende not Scripture onlie which both by Scripture and by cleare Testimonie of Orthodox Antiquitie I haue prooved in the Case heere questioned to bee the onelie Rule for your Church of Rome joyneth and equalleth with Scripture her owne Canons and Traditions and there-by declareth evidentlie all her worship to bee vaine Hoc nimis doleo sayeth Augustine quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt minus curantur tam multis praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit that is I much lament for that manie thinges which in the holie Scriptures are most healthsomlie written are little regarded and all things are so full of manifolde presumptions as he is more grievouslie punished who neglecteth those humane Traditions than who hath buried his mynde in Drunkennesse If that holie Father did finde such matter of lamentation for those small beginnings in comparison which the mysterie of your Antichristian Iniquitie at that time not so farre as yet advanced had come to what had beene the measure of his griefe if hee had seene it in the toppe of Presumptuous Impietie Eriphilus What Eubulus will you make vs therefore to heare another voyce than CHRIST'S because wee heare the voyce of the Church Is not the voyce of the Church CHRIST'S owne voyce sayeth Hee not in Scripture Hee who heareth you heareth Mee and bee who despyseth you despyseth Mee Eubulus Too great heate Eriphilus maketh you to over-reach your selfe and so to stumble both in Logicke and in Divinitie Your Errour in Logicke is that you take that for an Argument which is the verie Poynt in Question All our Dispute is what Companie of so manie Acclaimers is the true Church of CHRIST In this Question proponed to vs by your Poët wee are come thus farre That who heare CHRIST'S voyce and His voyce onlie Wee haue layde also this ground That the Scriptures are onelie to bee helde for His voyce Vpon which ground I challenged your Church as adding to her owne Now here for your defence that your Decrees must bee counted CHRIST'S voyce and that even by Scripture you assume that you are the Church and where the Sheepe are to bee tryed by the voyce which they doe heare you will therefore justifie the voyce because you forsooth doe heare it And by such Logicke as this what may you not conclude You might with more credite tell vs in plaine Tearmes That you will not haue it put in question but that you are the Church than appeare to put that poynt in tryall and incontinent to take it for a Principle which is the verie Poynt controverted Now as this is your fault in Logicke and that exceeding chyldish so in Divinitie you misse and more dangerouslie Because the LORD affirmeth That who heareth the Church heareth Him and who despyseth them despyseth Him if Pastours vnder the pretext of this Power should presume absolutelie to impose on Consciences what they please binding Christians indifferentlie without proving to admit all it were an impudent yea an impious vsurpation For these speaches of CHRIST haue alwayes this implyed Condition That Pastours speake nothing but the wordes of the Great Shepheard For the words of
the Wyse are lyke Goades and lyke Nayles c. which are given by one Pastour Were they not I pray you the ordinarie Church-men whom the LORD rebuked for burdening Consciences with Traditions even of Fathers And were not those Traditions where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition the Traditions of the Church Doeth not the same Father affirme That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum sicubi falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant that is Wee ought not consent no not with Catholicke Bishops if they holde a◅e opinion contrarie to the canonicke Scriptures For as Cyprian sayth Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Custome without Trueth is but Antiquitie of Errour And the Saying of Ruffinus on the Creed is notable Non dicimus Credo in Ecclesiam sed Credo Ecclesiam ne eadem vis authoritas videatur Creatoris creaturae Domini Ministrorum that is Wee say not I belieue in the Church but I belieue the Church lest one and the same might appeare to bee the power and auth◅ritie of the Creator and the creature of the LORD and of His Servantes Augustine affirmeth Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum ipsa consilia reprehendere si qua in ◅e a veritate devient That it is lawfull to repr◅oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops yea and the Councels them-selues if in anie thing they decly◅e from the ◅rueth Because hee who heareth the King his Ambassadour or Herauld heareth the King and who despyseth them despyseth the King haue eyther Ambassadours or Heraulds an◅ libe◅tle heere-vpon to exceede the boundes of then Commissions and Warrandes Or haue not the parties who other-wayes are holdē to heare eyther of th◅m yet place le◅t them without anie diminution of the Soveraigne Majestie and Royall Authoritie both to aske for and to examine their Warrandes Wee haue but one LORD and one Law-giver and so only doeth the contempt of our voyce touch Him if our voyce bee the Eccho of His voyce and wee speake not out of our owne imaginations Other-wayes the manie sad and serious Warninges given vs to trye spirits were vayne Then turning speach to Philomathes Eriphilus heate for your Church Philomathes hath al-most haled mee quyte from our Question You objected That all Sects pretende Scripture I answered That all pretended not Scripture onlie for that your Church joyneth and aequalleth with Scripture her owne Devyses Nowe to divert heere farder to the Question of the Churches power in this poynt and whether shee may erre or not it were to slyde away from our present poynt and I haue disputed that matter at length in my Defence of our Callinges I giue the Case then that your Church and all others acclayming the Title did pretende Scripture onelie yet it is one thing to pretende Scripture and another to haue Scripture truelie for them It is one thing to rehearse the common Creede and another thing to holde the poyntes there-of Yea and one thing to holde them falselie and but in show and another to holde them truelie One may in worde and profession holde IESVS to haue come in the flesh and yet in effect denye it and so bee an Antichrist None can call IESVS LORD but by the Spirit of GOD sayeth the Scripture and yet the same Scripture witnesseth That not al who call Him LORD shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven If Heretickes did not pretende Scripture they could not greatlie deceiue no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle if they had not plowed with his Heyfer And this indeede were to yeelde Satan an easie victorie if because for more effectuall deceit hee maketh to cloathe him-selfe with our Weapons wee should therefore fayntlie forsake them and for-g◅e that which by our LORD is left vs for our onelie Armour Rule of our Wayes and Sole Ground and Pillar of our Fayth as sayeth Ireneus so to wander and perish in the Wildernesse of Mens Inventions Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes it is exceeding strange that your Teachers haue so farre perswaded their Disciples that reading of Scripture to Laike persons as they call them is not onelie vnprofitable for resolution but also dangerous for breeding Errours Thus verifying of themselues that saying of Ireneus speaking of Heretickes Cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum that is When they are argued by Scriptures they turne then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selues Al-be-it wee see the Bereans are highlie praysed for searching Scripture and examining there-by what was offered vnto them and their example is registrated by the holie Ghost for a permanent instruction in such case to all succeeding Ages And it is even monstrous to consider how farre your guydes haue brought their followers not onlie to neglect but even to contemne yea and condemne in Laike men the reading of holie Scripture So as I can not tell whether with greater horrour I haue often heard their disdainful speaches against Scripture or with dolour and compassion I haue perceived how some of them presuming much of Knowledge and other-wayes prowdlie peart to prattle in Controversies of Religion and to talke at Tables of some cunned and dismembred Testimonies of the Fathers yet in the Sacred BIBLE were as great strangers as in the Alcoran Philomathes If anie man eyther speake vnreverentlie of Scripture or condemne the reading there-of by Laike persons I am not to make good for that for my selfe I both reverence them and esteeme the reading of them in Sobernesse and Humilitie to all sorts of men not onlie lawfull but also profitable and necessarie Neyther did that which I objected to Eubulus tende to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture but seeing that not onlie all Heretickes pretende Scripture each drawing out there-of a Sense for corroboration of their owne Opinions but that there is also a manifolde and great diversitie of interpretation amongst all men where-through it is cleare howe doubtfull and obscure the meaning of Scripture is It would appeare that al-be-it wee haue not to forsake or despyse Scripture yet for Resolution which is the true Sense that wee must seeke some other Rule And what can that bee else but that leaving all other Interpretations wee holde that which the Catholicke Church avoucheth Eubulus Doe you not perceiue Philomathes howe agaynst all Logicke Lawes you reduce our Disputation to a Circle and so not onelie you take that for a graunted ground which is the verie poynt in question but also fall sensiblie in that same imputation which you would appeare so much to shunne Wee are disputing Which is the true Church and haue evinced That the onelie sure way to know Her is by Scripture So as of necessitie first Scripture must leade vs to know amongst common Acclaymers which is Shee before wee can resolue to follow Her interpretation I heartilie yeelde that Her interpretation be taken but in such Dispute Who Shee is wee
not mooue him Eubulus You deceiue Philomathes by concluding Theticallie and absolutelie vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth and so you vnskilfullie confound diverse Cases For first inducing of an Infidell to belieue Scripture the Authoritie of the Church is a great Motiue or rather as Augustine calleth it a Commotiue and Opportanum inquirendi exordium that is A commodious entrie to inquire by Now from this speciall Case and qualitie of Case to inferre That the man by this Commotiue first induced had still there-after no other or greater Warrand for his Beliefe of Scripture but the Authoritie of the Church which first induced him it were no better Logicke than to conclude of the Samaritanes That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth than the Report of their Woman from the Well The Authoritie of the Church may and will often induce an Infidell to reverence and belieue Scripture but so as having come thus farte then in the communitie of that Church to discerne lawfull from vnlawfull worship and orthodox from hereticall professours the Scriptures onlie must haue place as in a case where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie were extreamlie ridiculous it beeing the verie point in question what companie is the Church And I shewed you before how your men are alwayes deceived or at least labour to deceiue others by confounding the case of the Church considered absolutelie and in relation to Forraigners and Infidels and reasoning from it so considered to the decyding of debate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church In the first the common notes are discretiue and the common authoritie a commotiue to induce but in the other there is no manner of way but the Scriptures as out of the Fathers I haue cleared And now â—…lomathes to returne to our poynâ—… whence this your â—…hreedbare Objection from Augustine hath driven â—…ee I pray you if your men are forced to confesse That the Markes of the Church are knowne by Scripture why flee they from having all both their Doctrine and Dealing examined by that same Rule What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this to â—…ject Scripture in the particular tryall of everie Article of Fayth and yet for a few wrested and pervâ—…ed Sentences where-by to proue some bastard and begâ—…yling Notes therefore impudentlie to all eadge That they for sooth doe cleare their Church by Scripture As if in all Scripture the holie Ghost had but given some Notes of a Companie where to seeke our Fayth and noâ—… clearlie set downe the Fayth which wee haue to holde and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto Your Cardinall Bellarmine in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers nearlie pintching him namelie of Augustine is forced to flee to this which you also 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge That the Scripture indeede teacheth what are the Notes of the Church And I haue verilie reason to thanke both you and him for it If as I presume of you so hee also had eyther willinglie or ingenuouslie yeelded it And though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of for the cleare advantage I haue in it to conclude agaâ—…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation I am sure that 〈◊〉 â—…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—… Schoâ—…Man will not agaynst Naâ—…re â—…nd all Schooles affirme of GOD the most perfect Doctour Thâ—… Hee 〈◊〉 Obseuruâ—… pâ—…r obscurius that which is obscure by anie thing which is more obscure For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus that is of thinges which are by nature more notore than are those things which they are brought to notifie Thus then I conclude vpon your owne Position That which cleareth anie thing must it selfe be more cleare But the Scripture cleareth which are the Notes of the Church There-fore as the Notes where-by the Church is knowne must bee more cleare than the Church which is knowne by them So the Scripture which teacheth those Notes must bee more cleare than both The Scripture which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe truelie taught and reverentlie received is the onlie sure and evident Ensigne of the House and Flocke And who is it that knoweth not this That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours and not the Colours by the Companie Now consider Philomathes whether your mens Objections Of Scriptures obscuritie doe fall and in what vprightnesse they are propounded And whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for or rather fraudfullie to divert the Simple from the onelie Light which leadeth to it And some of your owne Wryters convinced by cleare Trueth are forced to confesse what the more impudent sort so much oppugne Andreas Fricius thus speaketh DEVS Author est Verbi Sui quod tanti facit ut Coelum Terra facilius transitura sint quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum qui authoritatem tribuit qui illud in dignitatem vindicat qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum Testimonium quidem Ecclesia Spiritu DEI affâ—…ata dare potest Verbo Doctrinae hanc scilicet quam â—…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus acâ—…pisset non aliâ—…m esse à DEO prolitam Authoritatem verâ—… Illi â—…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum qui est Author illius Illustrator Defensor Propugâ—…ator Agayne the same Author Lib. 4. de Ecclesia Cap. 7. Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam Verbum Fundamentum est Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum Gabriel Biel Lib. 3. Sentent Distinct. 26. Scripturae canonicae absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae ex natura â—…ei sunt immutabiles immutabiliter verae Hosius in Confess Cap. 16. Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis et nos docentis So as Philomathes if you will not belieue vs yet your owne men may tell you Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe and would draw others with him in Darknesse Philadelphus Hee will haue vs to seeke after the Church as Children at Chacke-blynd-man groape after their Fellowes For first hee would picke out our Eyes or syle vs from seeing and then forsooth set vs a-searching But they who doe evill hate the Light and the Church of Rome had rather choose That this Debate were never decided than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought where-by they might bee found out who they are Through open Streete with lighted Lampe in hand A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone Where-of when one the Motiue did demand His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone 'Mongst Men more mad than Mamacks by the Moone I search sayde hee if I can finde one wyse Asse th' other sayde thyne Head is out of tune Canst thou discerne one though thou sawst him thryse But more your man is
that some Noble partes yet resist the Disease so as the Bodie al-be-it heavilie affected yet dieth not yea getting the true Medicine and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit will expell the Evill and notiue Humour and recover Health as Experience hath prooved clearlie in manie Reformed both Churches and Persons Thus Philomathes if in your Assumption you meane by the Church that whole Bodie absolutelie on which that Name was fraudfullie and tyrannicallie imposed then you conclude not your Poynt but deceiue by Aequivocation A dici ad esse from So called and wronglie called to So is confounding that knowne Distinction of Logicke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where-of I spake before And if by the Church of Rome you signifie the Papalitie and Evill in the Bodie which wee impugne as you must if you evince ought agaynst vs then is your Assumption clearlie false For both before that Evill invaded the Bodie the Bodie was and even at the tyme of the waxing Sore yet still continued brooking some healthsome remnant of Spirituall Sense and Lyfe and now at last by the Medicinall Vertue of the Word and Spirit is recovering Health and destroying the formerlie destroying Disease This will bee yet more cleare by the discoverie of that other Fallacie where-by in this Case of the Churches continuance your Men partlie illude and partlie are illuded For because the Church continueth al-wayes they esteeme and conclude falselie That there-fore shee continueth still in one and the same Condition of Light and Lyfe that is That Trueth and lawfull Worship hath al-wayes helde place and borne swey there-in in common so as what-so-ever Companie or Doctrine most in common obtayned and carried Vogue that was the true Church of CHRIST and the true and Orthodox Fayth And this is most absurdly false and evinced to be so not onlie by evident Experience but also by cleare Scripture For all 〈◊〉 Church Trueth in her hath continued alwayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she bene subject to manie Wrestlings Victories Kything 〈◊〉 Eclypses Shee is some-tyme darkened sayth Augustine and is as it were over-clowded with multitude of Offences some-tyme by tranquillitie of tyme quyet free she showeth her selfe some-tyme is covered and troubled with the waues of tribulations and tentations We confesse that the Church hath continued always but not as the presuming Whoore boasteth I sit being a Queene shall see no mourning but oft-tymes afflicted tossed with tempest having no comforter She hath still continued but as a Woman even at first while shee was yet cloathed with the Sunne traveling and crying out with payne next persecuted cruellie thirdly fleeing to the Wildernesse fourthly lurking and fed there while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him by false pretence of the Lambe's horns She hath coÌ„tinued alwayes yet so as sometime while the Earth Sea Fountayns Rivers Starres Sun Moone are eyther first in a great part burnt corrupted made bitter eclypsed or totally at last darkened she consisted of a few secret sealed ones exempted in GOD'S merciful care froÌ„ a common evill Sometime againe she is of a number innumerable with Palms in haÌ„d Her state hath bene sometime as the temple closed in relation to al the holy citie court of the teÌ„ple trodden vnder foot of the Heathen her Pastours some-time few secret ministring within the Temple in sorrow for prevayling Evils yet long without blood-shed as being vnperceived Sometime again vpoÌ„ application of the true measuring Reede for discerning the true Church within the compas of so importable an impietie cruelly murdered barbarouslie intreated eveÌ„ with applause of the World Sometime agayn in greater vigour terrifying their enemies in open view flying thorow the midst of HeaveÌ„ with the ever-lasting Gospell separated from incurable Contagion to come vp hither Sometime as now at last comming so down on the earth as it is all lightened with the glorious shyning of the Gospell Wee know that the true Church hath continued al-wayes Yet so as in a common Apostasie where-by Antichrist obtayned a Throne even in the Temple of GOD and all the Earth followed the Beast receiving his Character Name or Number while to the Beast his wondering Sectators and charactized Slaues it appeared impossible that anie such Companie could bee shee consisted of 144000 secret sealed and chaste ones following the Lambe and having a powerfull and plentifull Dispensation of Grace and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps al-be-it none could eyther heare or learne their Song but them-selues Finallie wee acknowledge That the Gates of Hell never prevayled or shall prevayle agaynst the Church but yet they haue often assayled her strangelie And thus in what-so-ever sense your Assumption Philomathes That the Church of Rome hath onelie of all Companies in the Worlde for manie Ages retayned the name of CHRIST and anie Worship there-of is eyther deceitfullie sophisticall or evidentlie false And so your Conclusion commeth to nought Philadelphus This poynted Syllogisme of yours Eriphilus Eâ—…bulus hath so blunted as it will scarse serue to pricke a Pudding And if neyther CONTINVANCE can bee a proper Marke of the Church and beeing modified so as it may best seeme to bee one yet is falselie assumed of Rome I see no better Conclusion but that wee let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes and that wee seeke the BRYDE vvhere Shee may bee better found out Of Propers it 's a Propertie that ever Of their owne Subjectes they are surelie sayde Satan shall nev'r CHRIST from His Church dissever Continuance yet can not tho bee made Her proper Marke let see how shee it had The verie moment of her first Creation Some tract of Tyme must bee of force fore-layde Where it is made a proper Praedication This Poynt is al 's accorded amongst Clerks No Common Cases can bee Proper Marks Philomathes Well Eubulus giving you that the Church continued not al-wayes in one and the same Condition of obtayning Trueth and that possiblie Errour might haue prevayled in the whole Church in common but not vniversallie in each within it yet except some visible and seene Companie how small so-ever may bee produced by you who haue professed your Fayth Doctrine to whom you may with anie show of Reason acclayme the Title of the true Bodie so lay over on vs the name and blame of the Sore vvhat is all your reasoning but a poore and verie improbable Paralogisme A posse ad esse as Schooles speake And the poynt of our Syllogisme is not yet so farre blunted as Philadelphus would make it Eubulus To evince the possibilitie it sufficiently meeteth all your Men who agaynst our Demonstrations of GOD His Trueth with vs and the Apostasie of the Church of Rome oppose al-wayes and onlie to vs the impossibilitie that anie such Case should befall the Church So as mine Argument is not as you speake A posse ad esse but of that where-of wee evidentlie
HEE hath remooved all that vs with-stood HEE comforts vs gainst all may make vs sorie Since here-to nought but Mercie miere did moue THEE Should wee not LORD with all our Soules then loue THEE FINIS The Author his Meditation on the 63 Yeare of his Age now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 THis is I know my Climactericke yeare And where-in if it shall please GOD to take mee What profit or what pleasure haue I here So louelie as the loue there-of may make mee Affect frayle Lyfe which must at length forsake mee Which is of Illes but a Succession Sphericke Where-of each houre I count my Climactericke On â—…irier Hopes my Soule it selfe heere stayeth I neyther loathe nor loue long heere to liue Long byding heere my Blessednesse delayeth Heere vnder Sinne I doe but groane and grieue Heart-broken but that firmlie I belieue My Death an Ende shall set to Sinne and Sorrow Gladlie come on then gratefull Guest to morrow Meane whyle my GOD with Thy good Sprite direct mee So as I never wander from THY Wayes And by THY Potent Power so protect mee As stable I may stand gaynst all Essayes Discowrage not THY Servaunt with Delayes But how-so-ev'r it shall please THEE to proue mee Still let me feele my LORD that THOV dost loue me Each moment teach mâ—…e of my Dayâ—…s to number To Wisedome whollie that myne Heart applying I never sinke downe in a senselesse slumber But Lusts and all vngodlinesse denying And on THY loving Promises relying In all Assaultes I may haue Hope and Hearting And last to THEE a peaceable Departing I seeke not Peace with Sinners or with Sinne But Peace which passeth vnderstanding all Which New-birth heere doth in our breasts begin In that mee keepe till hence LORD Thou mee call From Fayth Hope Loue LORD let mee never fall But fighting out this good Fight by THY Grace Aeternallie syne let mee see THY Face There shall I fynde that inexhausted Fountayne Of endlesse Blisse there shall my Soule bee filled With sight of Thee there setled on my Mountayne I shall haue more than Heart ev'r wisht or willed In Booke of Lyfe there shall I see mee Billed Sacietie of Ioyes lyes there-in Store And vnperturbed Pleasures ever-more Passe vp then Soule possesse that pleasant Place Onlie for GOD'S peculiar Ones prepared Goe in to Glorie by the Gate of Grace Where never more in Sinne thou shalt bee snared What wee shall bee there shall it bee declared I long to know the Cafe which never Eye Here saw Eare heard Heart thought what that may bee FINIS ESCAPES IN PRINTING Pag. lin for reade 10 35 exceding opportunitie exceeding opportunâ—…lie 11 22 Thessalonian Thessalian 12 5 Thessalonian Thessalian 27 8 to her owne of her owne 37 26 Mamackes Maniackes 41 22 are seene are not seene 46 30 Gates that are Gates are 66 3 and no part as no part Ibid. 9 notiue nociue 70 31 his is this is 71 5 cleareth you cheareth you Ibid. 13 Mules Moles Ibid. 15 at a lite not a little 78 3 separablie separatelie 88 16 Mules Moles 97 19 in doing is doing 113 24 a gayne a Game 127 31 cloze all clozeth all 128 21 ingeniouslie ingenuouslie â—…51 18 to bee a separate to a separate I. II. 1. Cor. 15. 32 III. â—…atth 1â—… 16. â—…lesiast 1â—… 13 â—…sal 49. 〈◊〉 IV. V. VI. VII I. II. III. IV. V. VI. Iohn 1â—… Iohn 14. 2â—… VII Iohn 5. â—…9 â—…7 〈◊〉 2. Tim. 3. 17. Matth. 15. 9. Cant. 1. 6. In Mich. In Matth. Hâ—…mil 49. In Matth. Hâ—…mil â—…49 Ep. 80. ad Eâ—… sta Medic. Lib. 3. cap. 4. Ad Maximin lib. 3. cap. 13. VIII Ep. 119. ad lanuar IX Eccles. 12. 11. De Unitat. Eccl. cont â—…il Ep. 166. cap. â—… Ad 〈◊〉 cont Ep. 〈◊〉 â—…ib 2. dâ—… Bapt. cont Doâ—…t cap. â—… 1. Iohn 4. 3. 1. Cor. 12. 3. Matth. 7. 21. Iudg. 14. 18. Lib. 31 cap. 3. Lib. 3. cap. 2. Acts 17. 11. X. Iohn 5. â—…9 2. Pet. 1. 19. 2. Tim. 3. 16. Psal. 119. â—… Exod. 32. â—… De Doctrin Christian Lib. 1. Cap. 37. 1. Cor. 2. 14. Matth. 13. 11. Iohn â—… 17. Iohn 10. Proverb â—… â—… Prov. 13. 6. 2. Cor. 4. 4. De doct Chrâ—… lib. 2. cap. 6. â—… XI Cont. Epist. Fundamâ—… XII Lib. de vtilitâ—… De 〈◊〉 â—…el cap. 1. XIII XIV XV. Boni Cathâ—…ci sunt qui fidem integram borâ—… mores servant August toâ—… 4. in Quâ—…stion super Maâ—…th Idem Augustin Tom. 1. lib. dâ—… vâ—…ra religion cap. 7. Coâ—…endar Ecclesia cathâ—…lica sociâ—…tatem qua lumen Christiaâ—… Religionis Scripturarâ—… Regulâ—…que Veritatis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 non abolâ—…tur seipsâ—… postcritatâ—… cogi Papaâ—… prâ—… Antichristo Romaâ—… pro vera Babylonia agnoscere Bernardus super Psal. 91. lib. 4. ad Eugeâ—…m â—… II. Heb. â—…1 1 III. Revel 2. Rev. 12. â—… Thess. 2. Contr. Ep fund De Vnitat Eccl. contr Paâ—…l In Math. homil 49. Revel 16. 12. IV. V. Rom. 15. 1â—… XII Malach. 1. 11. Rev. 1. 6. Hosca 14. 3. Rom. 1â—… 1. Heb. 13. 16. Philip. 4. 18. Heb. 7. 27. â—…el 2. 28. â—… 19. 19. XIII Rom. 10. 1â—… Iob. 1. 7. and 1. Pet. 5. 8. Matth. 23. 1â—… â—…ut yet in it â—…l beâ—… a tenth it shall reâ—…e and shall eaten as a â—…-tree and as Oake whose stance is in â—… when they â—… their leaues â—…he holie seed â—…ll be the subâ—…ce there-of â—…sai 6. 13. â—…onsuetudo â—…tre non debet â—… minus veritas consuetâ—… 〈◊〉 veritate vetuâ—… est errorâ—… 〈◊〉 propter 〈◊〉 errore sequâ—… veritatem Cyprian ad Pompeâ—… Nova et pâ—…grina censenda sunt quâ—… Christâ—… non docâ—…it nec omnia qua vetera sunt admitâ—…s debent Ibidâ—… I. II. III. IV. V. Revel 13. Revel 1â—… and â—… Revel 2. 13. ad vincâ—… 〈◊〉 48. Revel 18. 7. Isai. 54. 1â—… Revel 12. Revel 13. Revel 8. and Revel 14. and Revel 7. 9. Revel 11. Revel 14. Revel 1â—… 12. Revel 18. â—… â—…es 2. â—…l 13. â—…l 14. VI. VII â—…vel 11. â—… Neque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 resâ—…e 〈◊〉 non potest 〈◊〉 Christianâ—… â—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vâ—…ra si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pâ—… times 〈◊〉 tatiâ—… ab 〈◊〉 bus sâ—…pscrit 〈◊〉 illâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Arnâ—…ius 3. adversus â—…tes â—…reger Naâ—…n orat 21. dâ—…â—…d Athâ—…nasii â—…ee who proâ—…eth one and â—… same Doâ—…ne of Fayth â—… fellow-partâ—…er of the same â—…ayre but who maintaineth a â—…trarie â—…eth is to bee â—…ounted an â—…versarie alâ—…it even sitting the Chayre â—…d this inâ—…de hath the â—…ne but that â—…er hath the â—…e matter and â—…eth of Succesâ—…n I. II. Defeâ—…e of Sect. 4. Defence of Sect. â—…3 III. Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 15. IV. â—…l 13. 11. V. VI. â—…vel 3. 1. Reveâ—…â—… VII Rev. 14 I. â—… 11. â—… 21. Rev. 11. â—… 2. King 6. IX X. â—…I w 24. â—…l 2. Revel 11. and 14 Chrysost. Homil. 46 in Matth. Hee goeth not out of the Church who goeth out bodilie but he who spirituallie leaveth the Fundaments of Ecclesiasticall Trueth Wee went out from them in regard of place but they from vs in regard oâ—… Fayth Wee haue left with them thâ—… Fundamentes oâ—… Walles but they haue left with vs the Fundaments of Scriptures Speciosum quâ—…dem nomen est pacis pulchra est opiâ—… vnitatis sed qâ—… ambigat 〈◊〉 sâ—… Ecclesia atque Evangeliorâ—… vâ—…tam pâ—…ceÌ„ esse quâ—… Christi est Hilar lib. contr 〈◊〉 alios Arriâ—…s Hand illâ—…â—… Ecclesia pacâ—… discâ—… imò 〈◊〉 conseqâ—… fidei loadeâ—… qui a 〈◊〉 perfidia sa segregaâ—… 〈◊〉 tagio crimiâ—… discodâ—… Cypr. 〈◊〉 de Uâ—…tat Ecclâ—… â—… 25. â—… 14. verse â—… II. 5. â—…h 3. 1. III. 2. Kings 3. 1â—… ltiwne who â—…nge â—… â—… a 〈◊〉 de â—… Iâ—… II. â—…th 23. 29. V. â—… I II IV. V. â—… Vâ—… VIâ—… 1. Tim. 4. 3. IX 〈◊〉 ad Himeâ—… cap. 7. X. XI XII XIII XIV XV. XVI Iohn 1â—… 2â—… Matth. 27. 6. Iob 1 â—… Rom. 3. XVII When thâ—… wicked ryse hyde themsel but when thâ—… perish the Riâ—… teous increasâ—… Prov. â—… â—… †Caput nostrum est in coelo sed nâ—… putes quod sit separatum caput a corpore Discretum est enim lociâ—… sed junctum â—…ffectious Angnstm. in Psal. 91. Chrysost. homil 35. in Matth. cap. 20. Who-so-ever hee bee that affecteth Primacie in Earth shall finde confusion in Heaven neyther shall hee come in the couÌ„t of CHRIST'S Servantes who maketh businesse about Primacie XVIII XIX XX. XXI Revel 9. Thess. 2. and Revel 11. â—…evel 14. and 7. and 9. 4. Thess. 2. 7. 1. Iohn 4. 3. Matth. 13. 2â—… Revel 13. XXII Revel 2. 13. â—…evel 11. 3. Revel 12. 6. 14. â—…evel 14. 1. â—…evel 13. 10. â—…nd 14. 12. â—…evel 11. 8. â—…evel 17. 6. â—…evel 17. 3. Exod. 3â—… Exod. 32. 26. 1 Kings 19. 24. 1 Kings 18. 13. 1 Kings 1â—… 1â—… Defence of Caâ—… Sect. 19. Rev. 1â—… and 2â—… XXIII XXIV XXV XXVI Revel 11. 2. XXVII Revel 2. 4. 14. 20. and 3. 1. 15. 〈◊〉 54. 11. Cant. 5. â—… Revel 12. 1â—… Revel 27. XXVIII Revel 14. 1. Revel 13. 3. 8. 1â—… XXIX Revel 2. 13. XXX Revel 14. 1. Revel 11. XXXI XXXII Lake 11. 5â—… Matth. 23. â—…3 XXXIII XXXIV XXXV â—…vel â—… 2. 2. Sam. 15. 11. Chapter 13. XXXVI XXXVII â—…evel â—…1 Revel 14. Acts 11. 26. Revelâ—…ion 20. Revel 13. 2. Revel 1â—… 3. Revel 13. 1. Revel 17. 3. Revel 2. 14. Revel 2. 20. XXXVIII â—… Thâ—…ss â—… 15. Eâ—…ra 1. 7. 1. Saâ—… 6. â—… XXXIX XL. XLI 〈◊〉 11. and 14. I. II. III.
you must answere to these Questions Eubulus By a Sonnet one may verie convenientlie giue sentence of a Song and Philadelpbus will but let you see Eriphilus that wee are not so farre borne in despite of all the Muses but that wee could render you as compact Verses as anie your proper Ballad hath in it Yet let it bee as you desire wee will leaue Sonnets a little and come to Syllogismes Philomathes reade on Philomathes Gladlie Thus then hee beginneth I pray thee Protestant beare with mee To aske thee Questions two or three And if an answere thou canst make More of thy counsell I will take Manie and sundrie Sects appeare Now in the Worlde farre and neare The Protestant the Puritane The Calvinist the Zvvingliane The Brovvnists and the Fam'lie of Loue And manie moe which I can prooue And the Romane Fayth truelie Which you doe call Papistrie All these in verie deede Rehearse all Articles in the Creede And ev'rie one of them sayth That their's is the Catholicke Fayth How should I amongst all these Know the Trueth from feigned Lies For ev'rie one confesse IESU Saying that their Faith is true But this is it that I doe seeke To know the Church Catholicke The Communion or the companie Of bolie Men in vnitie Eubulus This hath beene the Question which in all times perverse and ignorant men haue pretended for them as is cleare by these wordes of Chrysostome Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man sayeth I would bee a Christian but I know not to whom I should cleane Manie Debates are amongst you I know not what Doctrine to choose seeing on both sides they pretende Scripture Answere him This maketh much for vs For if wee did say that our Fayth were grounded vpon naturall reasons thou hadst reason to bee troubled but when wee betake vs to the Scriptures which are playne and true thou mayest easilie discerne If anie man agree with Them hee is a Christian and who so oppugneth Them hee is farre from this Rule This same Chrysostome in 2. ad Thessal 2. All things are cleare and playne in divine Scriptures what-so-ever thinges are necessarie are manifest in them Agayne the same Chrysostome in Ioann cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures leade vs to GOD and open to vs the knowledge of Him they both make and keepe the Sheepe neyther suffer they Wolâ—…es to breake in For as a most strong Doore they debarre Heretickes and place the Godlie in suretie Neyther so beeing wee bee willing shall they ever suffer vs to fall away in Errour Now al-be-it I well might for all answere oppose to your Poet these Passages yet lest you complayne Philomathes that I passe him too slenderlie I take vp the summe of your Man his mayne Question to bee this Amongst so manie diverse Sects all rehearsing the common Creed and each acclayming the Title of the Church hovve and by what Marks we may discerne the true Church of CHRIST from such as falselie doe vsurpe that Title Philomathes You haue exceeding well taken vp the state of the Question And I pray you is it not a necessarie Question and worthie of a carefull consideration Eubulus Yea verilie but in proponing where-of and in answering there-to your Questioneâ—… bewrayeth either want of Care or want of Skill or which is worse want of Conscience For if hee could prooue moe Sectes than hee proponeth as both hee professeth and I confesse hee might why would hee not rather produce them than for malicious vp-making of a number where no number is make them diverse who are but one For everie difference of Opinion maketh not a diverse Sect much lesse doe diverse names of men who disagree in no materiall point Philadelphus You miss-take the matter Eubulus it is not maliciouslie done of him but for Metres sake to make vp his Verses which other-wayes would not haue runne well Eubulus Well this is his least al-be-it even a lourd-Errour But next Philomathes for resolution of his Question if hee had not willinglie set him-selfe to wander out of a right and plaine way so to draw others after him in the darke Mist of drumblie Disputations hee might haue taken the onlie sure and infallible Marke from CHRIST His owne Mouth Who as hee is the onelie LORD of the House great Shepheard of the Sheepe and Bridegroome of the Bryde so can Hee best of anie leade vs to know them rightlie Philomathes That must bee of all other the most certaine Note and I long to heare it Eubulus CHRIST giveth His Sheepe this Marke That they know the voyce of the great Shepheard and follow it and that they will not follow the voyce of a Stranger for they know it not Where-by that is vndoubtedlie the true Church where the voyce of CHRIST and His voyce onelie is purelie preached and religiouslie received If anie man loue Mee bee will keepe My Word and My Father will loue him and Wee will come to him and will dwell with him Hee that loveth Mee not keepeth not My Wordes c. Philomathes This is most true but the Question remaineth still as doubtfull as before for what-so-ever Companie doeth acclaime to it selfe the Title of the Church they no lesse boldlie affirme that they doe heare the voyce of CHRIST so as you haue but cast vs in a new dispute what iâ—… CHRIST His voyce which his true Sheepe doe heare and by hearing where-of they may bee discerned to bee of His Sheepe-folde Eubulus Neyther CHRIST nor His Apostles nor the succeeding Orthodox Fathers haue left place to make question heere-of to anie who wilfullie winketh not for Hee hath left vs His holie Scriptures and commandeth to search them for a Witnesse of Him Now the way to know Him and to know His true Church which is his fulnesse must of necessitie bee one More-over that which maketh the man of GOD wise absolute and perfect to everie good worke must make him wise to discerne the true Church also But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise absolute and perfect to everie good worke therefore they make him wise to discerne the true Church also So then the Scriptures are CHRIST His voyce and they onlie are now to bee helde for His voyce for In vaine doe men worship sayeth the LORD teaching for Doctrines the Traditions of men And when-so-ever anie Church falleth to heare anie other Voyce or follow anie other Speaker then Shee looketh aside to the Flockes of his Companions and of a faithfull Citie beginneth to become an Harlor And as Ierome pertinentlie speaketh Egredietur è finibus suis Shee transgresseth her owne Limits Your men Philomathes darken all disputation by deceit of Aequivocations and confounding of distinct Considerations and Cases It is a much different thing to discerne the Church of CHRIST in common from Infidels Forraigners And againe in that communitie of the Church to discerne betwixt the true worshippers and the false betwixt the
vnder Sense and so can bee no Marke at all Sophisticall for that of that which we confesse to be a true Attribute of the Church hee would conclude a discerning Marke But all Attributes are not Markes Now Eriphilus refell mine Argument or graunt mee I pray you some respite from burning for without merite you haue al-readie burned too manie vpon humour Philadelphus You could not away Eriphilus with my Sonnets but as I thinke Eubulus Syllogismes are no lesse pricking Philomathes But I pray you Eubulus how-so-ever your Reasons are subtill and I can not denye but builded vpon confessed Grounds and how-so-ever that Catholicke is an Attribute as you call it of the Church is apprehended by Fayth yet seeing that the moste approoved Fathers in their Disputations agaynst the Heretickes of their tymes doe presse them sore with the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church which they ordinarilie oppose vnto them it would appeare that they had some reason to doe so and that even Vniversalitie is in some respect a Marke of the true Church Neyther see I howe you can disapprooue our Mens Argument agaynst you brought from this Note except you will condemne those Famous and Auncient Fathers also as having vaynlie and sophisticallie reasoned for the Trueth Eubulus To cleare you Philomathes of all doubt heerein and to free our selues from anie eyther conscience of our owne guiltinesse where-fore we would reject this Reason or of anie vnreverend Opinion of those Fathers who as you truelie affirme in some Cases and Respectes did vse it the aequivocation of this word Catholicke must be opened vp where-by your Doctours willinglie illude and where-by your simple ones are vnwittinglie deceived For the Catholicke Church is of the Fathers so called eyther properlie and absolutelie or improperlie and but in some speciall Respect and Relation Absolutelie and most properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole number of what-so-ever tyme or place who haue beene are or shall bee vnited vnto CHRIST their Head and liue in Him by His Spirit whether heere on Earth fighting or hence in Heaven triumphing Absolutelie and lesse properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole militant companie heere on Earth of what-so-ever Kinred Tongue or Nation vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession whether Hypocrites or true Professours whether pure or corrupt Worshippers whether Orthodox or Hereticall as even Bellarmine argueth Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In anie of which Cases shee is believed and in her Vniversalitie falleth not vnder Sense Improperlie agayne and in opposite Relation the Church is called CATHOLICKE for two Respects The one In opposite Relation to the Church of the Iewes which was limited within the compasse of one People and of one Region the Christian Church no more so confined but spread indifferentlie over all is called the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH Neyther thus because that eyther al-wayes all Peoples Vniversallie or moste parte of Men embrace the Gospell but because the Entrie is opened and offered indifferentlie vnto all The other Respect was the opposite Relation to hereticall Companies separating them-selues by Errour from the common Bodie of the Church Trueth mayntayned there-in And in this last Respect it is that al-most the Fathers cōmonlie speak of it calling the Cōmunitie of the Visible Church retayning Trueth in relation to particular hereticall Companies the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH And in this Sense opposing ordinarilie to arrogant men the Authoritie Multitude Consent Succession c. of the Catholicke Church as you haue alleadged Philomathes But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning two things are carefullie to bee marked whereby the Fathers shall bee found both pertinentlie and prudentlie to haue vsed this Argument where by your men now shall bee seene evidentlie and impudentlie to abuse it The first is that state and condition of the Church wherein this Argument hath place according as it was when the Fathers vsed it The second is what weight or moment the Fathers placed in it The state of the Church then was in common pure holding Trueth and by the force thereof purging or expelling all in-bred or accressing evils or Heresies So as then though by an improper Speach yet the Communalitie of the Church keeping Trueth in relation to a few Declyners might not impertinentlie bee called the Catholicke Church and her authoritie might well haue beene opposed vnto them But who in a plaine contrarie state and condition of the Church when Errour obtaineth in common and Trueth is afflicted and borne downe yet without consideration of the altered State and Condition would still vse the same reason from Multitude and what-so-ever or how-so-ever an obtaining State hee were a ridiculous Sophister confounding diverse and distinct times and cases To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus where-in evill was not tollerated to the state of the Church in Smirna where-in Heretickes waxed prowde and despysed the abject state of true Professours it were sophisticall but much more sophisticall to reason from the state in Ephesus to the state in Pergamus when the true Church dwelt even where Satan's Throne was knowne to GOD though hid from the worldlie sort To reason from the Woman cloathed with the Sunne treading the Moone and crowned with twelue Starres to the same Woman lurking in the Wildernesse it concludeth not for as in the first Case the Fathers had reason and did wyselie to convince by all Advantages so whyle the Case is clearlie altered according as by Scripture was fore-tolde and Antichrist hath obtayned a Throne even in the Temple when the Evill or Gangrene in the bodie and having even over-gone the Bodie in common will contende agaynst the healthsome remnant then are wee both to leaue improper Speaches and wyselie to distinguish deceitfullie-confounded Tymes and Cases and properlie to pleade That the Gangrene in the Bodie and even affecting and over-going the Bodie in common yet is but an Adherent or accressing Evill in but not of the Bodie and That the healthsome remnant retayning the Lyfe of the Head and by vertue there-of resisting the over-going Gangrene is the true Catholicke Church And this altered Condition of Tyme and of the Church in tyme which maketh the Argument some-tyme pertinentlie vsed to bee nowe ridiculous besides that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-tolde it the FATHERS did see the working on of it and wee haue aboundantlie often prooved and still offer to prooue it It is cleare also by that other Poynt which I propounded to bee observed in this reasoning of the FATHERS namelie What Weyght or Moment they placed in that same Argument VVhere-in they even professe That they vsed it not as an infallible demonstratiue Marke but as a Motiue vvhich beeing joyned with cleare TRVETH was worthie to bee regarded but which eyther without TRVETH or agaynst TRVETH should carrie no Credite This is evident by Augustine vsing this same Argument agaynst Faustus Manichaeus and opposing the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church Multitude Antiquitie Succession c.
to his bare bragging of the TRVETH Which TRVETH not-with-standing sayeth that Father if you can show so clearlie as it can not bee gayne-sayde it is to bee praeferred to all these thinges where-by I am holden within the Catholicke Church If the name of the Catholicke Church were in this place properlie to bee taken then should Augustine's supposed Case be ridiculous For Trueth can never be found any-where els but within the Catholicke Church taken properlie Where-by it is cleare that the Catholicke Church in this and such other places is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church which having Trueth should bee regarded But to whose Authoritie not the lesse the cleare Trueth found with never so few Holders is to bee preferred For Wee ought not to consent no not to Catholicke Bishops sayeth the same Father if they holde anie Opinion contrarie to Canonicke Scriptures Where-by is manifest both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned from the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and what force they placed in that Argument and that how-so-ever by them and in that tyme and case of a Church it was not inconvenientlie vsed yet that now in so farre different a state still to vsurpe it in a lyke manner were extreame impudencie This Chrysostome did both fore-see and gaue warning of it that the altered state of the Church behooved to bring men to a more neare and proper Rule of Examination as in his Testimonies aboue cited is cleare In that how-so-ever before that Heresie obtayned place in the Church and the abhomination of desolation stood also in sanctis Ecclesiae locis in the holie places of the Church manie wayes were to discerne the Church as while Trueth helde place in common was Vniversalitie improperlie taken Multitude Consent Succession c yet now after that hereticall contagion hath infected the Bodie in common no manner of way is to discerne the true Church amidst the corrupted communitie of the Church but onlie the Scriptures You are greatlie deceived Philomathes if you esteeme the Church therefore to bee called CATHOLICKE eyther because al-wayes the moste parte of men shall come in to her and embrace the Profession or yet That of such as come in to her the moste parte shall al-wayes holde the Trueth But Shee is CATHOLICKE because her Gates that are nowe casten open to all Kinreds Tongues and Nations that the righteous Nation may enter in And how-so-ever that neyther most part come in neyther of such as are in her is the most part of her or saved yet all vniversallie who are saved must both bee in her and of her And how-so-ever in her most part keepe not Trueth yet no Trueth is but in her If as your Men are al-readie perceiving and there-vpon are gnawing their Tongues for sorrowe the Trueth preached by vs take in short tyme such successe as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dryed vp and if Multitude and Consent of Nations shall bee with vs will you there-fore yeelde vs the Title of the Catholicke Church If multitude of Holders bee al-wayes a sure Marke of the true Church how sayeth the Scripture That All shall follow the Beast And you confesse That Antichrist when hee commeth shall obtayne Vniversallie Now if in Antichrist his vsurpation Vniversalitie shall bee no Note of the Church how see you not That verie vnjustlie you lay it al-wayes agaynst vs and That what-so-ever Vniversalitie you can alleadge for your Pope it exeemeth him not from beeing that Antichrist except hee cleare him-selfe by better Defences Thus I hope I haue cleared That wee neyther disprooue the Fathers reasoning agaynst Heretickes in opposing to them the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and yet that you haue not there-fore anie eyther Right in their Argument or Ground there-vpon to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Marke of the Church So as your man's mayne Proposition so farre as concerneth this Note of Vniversalitie is still sophisticall and vayne But nowe if it were even a discerning Marke as your Men would make it yet let vs trye howe justlie your Church doeth vindicate it to her selfe and let vs examine your Man's mayne Assumption in that part Philadelphus As you haue dressed his Proposition in that part I thinke all labour agaynst his Assumption were ydle For if CATHOLICKE can bee no discerning Marke of the Church no not anie Marke at all as you haue at length and evidentlie evinced how can it bee Romes Marke Eubulus Yet Philadelphus I will omit no-thing where-by I may possiblie induce Eriphilus to take more of my counsell But in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his mayne Argument where-by hee appropriateth to Rome the Title of the Catholicke Church I must protest Eriphilus that it bee no praejudice to my matter that you doe so confidentlie call your selues Catholickes and your Companie the Catholicke Church else if you will haue this your vsurping of that name to carrie anie weight and that therefore you will haue vs to account so of you I desire of you the same aequitablenesse in our Case That because wee both esteeme and call our selues The Catholicke Church and Catholicke Men that therefore you will holde vs for such Or if you consider that an Argument à dici ad esse concludeth not and that there-fore pertinentlie the Logicians place before their Categories the Distinction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of thinges that are sayde and of thinges that are Then let vs lay aside what eyther you of your selues or wee of our selues doe partiallie speake or arrogantlie arrogate and let vs trye what is true of vs both Philomathes Your Protestation is most aequitable For a bare Clayme except it bee instructed can make no Title Eubulus Then Philomathes in that part of your Poet's Ryme which is inscrybed CATHOLICKE and which you did lastlie reade besides the Proposition which I haue refelled hee assumeth That the Note of Catholicke or Vniversalitie conveaneth properlie to the Church of Rome Which false Assumption hee seeketh to sustayne by foure Reasons the first of which hee concludeth thus What Companie did take in hand and accordinglie first performed the publishing of the Gospell thorow the Worlde and converted all Nations to the Fayth that must bee the Companie to which the Title of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE properlie belongeth and that Companie is the Catholicke Church But the Church of Rome onlie did both vnder-take and performe this There-fore the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church and to her properlie that Note belongeth Now heere some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man to giue vs such whether a definition or description of Catholicke as till now none ever heard of Wee esteemed as I haue shewed that the Catholicke Church had beene that companie of what-so-ever Tyme Place or Nation which in the communion of one and the same Spirit joyned to their Head CHRIST doe make vp the fulnesse of His mysticall Bodie whether in the Heavens triumphing or as yet heere in their course fighting
but first in health healthsom vigour next by degrees contracting sicknes at length heavilie infected affected afflicted with that disease whereof you Eriphilus are dangerously sick Philomathes hath somwhat tasted also now is convalescing through the Medicine of the Word Spirit and alyke in all these cases was ever is visible seen also according to her distinct conditions in diverse tymes Neyther haue wee another Church or a new Church as your Doctors would perswade the Simple but the same Church a renewed Church Neither haue we forsaken the Vnitie Cōmunion of the Church within which wherof we stil are but we haue forsaken Babel in the Church which hath ◅firmed her selfe agaynst al Cure For howsoever the sicke Bodie was the Church yet the Sicknesse oppugning and wasting the lyfe there-of was never the Church and al-be-it in it yet never of it Now Eriphilus you see I am farre from dallying and am come to more playne Dealing than perhaps well pleaseth you Philomathes Verilie Eubulus I can not denye but your Reasons are sound and solide and your Distinctions are subtill But it seemeth exceeding strange that anie such Case and so long a tyme should haue befallen the Church of GOD which maketh mee yet to suspect that your Argumentes are more out of subtiltie of Logicke than according to the Veritie of the Matter and that how-so-ever they evince indeede clearlie a Possibilitie of such a Case yet that anie such Case in trueth was they will not conclude And it were a rash Conception so to thinke of holie Church So that according as I sayde before you seeme still to reason but A posse ad esse from Possibilitie to Reall existence which will not necessarilie follow Eubulus I confesse Philomathes that the Case is and will seeme strange to anie not acquaynted with the cleare course of Scripture and the LORD His wyse and wonderfull Dispensation clearlie fore-tolde there-in and fallen out accordinglie For the workes of GOD are wonderfull and Hee is marvelous in the Case of His Saynctes As great is the Mysterie of Godlinesse so al-so is that of Iniquitie And without true illumination to know the Scriptures of GOD none ever shall attayne eyther to the healthsome Knowledge of the one or happie Discoverie of the other But Philomathes seeing you confesse That I haue clearlie evinced the Possibilitie of such Apostasie in the Church as where-by Errour may take place in common and that yet not-with-standing GOD may verie well preserue Trueth and true and lawfull Worship and Worshippers al-be-it in common vnperceived and considering the manie and capitall Poyntes where-with so manie famous Churches now so long tyme charge your Church of Rome I aske you If in this Case you thinke her well defended with the pretended Impossibilitie of Erring Or if shee hath not great reason both to suspect what possiblie might befall her and carefullie to descende to an exact Tryall whether it hath so befallen her or not Philomathes Certaynlie I thinke the weyght of so great Poyntes as are in Controversie to-gether with the Challenge of so manie Churches requyre no lesse than that Matters bee condignlie tryed and examined and that a prowde Denyall will not justifie anie in such a Case Eubulus Well Philomathes and in so clearlie evinced a Possibilitie of Apostasie as requyreth a condigne Tryall whether thinke you is it the surest way to put the stable Trueth of GOD revealed in His Worde to this inaequitable and vnsure Condition as eyther to approoue it selfe by the Multitude and Continuance of Holders who yet may erre or then to bee rejected Or rather to laye for a sure Ground That seeing it is Trueth there-fore it ought to subdue all Myndes and take place agaynst all Praejudices of Praescription Praerogatiue of Holders Tymes Places or Persons Because it dependeth not on the vnstable Humours of Men who are but naturallie Liars and may bee deceived But is in it selfe so cleare as beeing admitted purelie to pleade for it selfe it will sufficientlie approoue and justifie it selfe agaynst all howe stronglie so-ever grounded Errour and all eyther Qualitie or Multitude of Mayntayners or Praescription of Tyme In short Philomathes whether ought the Trueth of GOD to bee subject to Men or ought all Men to bee subject vnto it And which of these two Reasons conclude strongest and on which may a Christian Soule best rest This hath long had place and Approbation with most Men and there-fore is the Trueth Or this is GOD His Trueth there-fore it ought to haue place even agaynst all praejudice what-so-ever And how-so-ever it hath appeared to haue beene perished from amongst Men yet certaynlie it hath remayned all-wayes Philomathes Verilie I can not denye but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie to subject the Trueth of GOD to Man al-be-it agayne in the Question what is that Trueth I thinke the judgement of the Church and what hath long bene held of Her should be much regarded and not rejected without great and verie cleare Reasons Eubulus That I yeeld you Philomathes and truelie if in the present Poynt of our Disputation we had or could bring no more but as you alleadged the Possibilitie of the case where-of no Evidence might bee produced that accordinglie it had fallen out And if my Reasons and Distinctions in this Matter were but from quirkes of Logicke and not according to clearelie-fore-tolde and accordinglie fallen-out Events you had the lesse reason to regard them But besides the Possibilitie which I haue evinced besides the vndoubted Trueth it selfe so clearlie delivered in Scripture as may sufficientlie certifie a Soule that accordinglie the Case hath fallen The holie Ghost for our farder Resolution hath also according to both the Possibilitie and the event in effect agreeable so clearlie fore-tolde the whole particular Case and Course as I may boldlie say to whom it appeareth strange They are yet great Strangers in the written Word of GOD and in such great measure of Light as now in GOD'S singular Mercie is revealed who disdayne to learne what even Artificers in such open and large offer of Grace are holden to know they are worthilie blynded in GOD'S just indignation Wee are not onlie fore-warned by the LORD Him-selfe in the dayes of His flesh and agreeablie there-after by the Apostle Paul of such a common Apostasie in the Church as where-by Antichrist should obtayne a Throne even in the Temple of GOD but also most amplie particularlie and delightfullie vnder most goodlie and significant Types in the Booke of the Revelation the whole course of Storie is plainlie and at length expressed So as Philomathes I haue not alleadged what probablie might be but what the holie GHOST hath playnlie and particulie fore-tolde and fore-warned vs should come to passe and which accordinglie wee see clearlie performed Yo◅ Men are deceived because they knowe neyther the ◅criptures nor the Power of GOD. And I am so farre from seeking subtill Evasions in