sooth be the men that in the pulpits crie so lowde who disesteeming the whole world besides obtrude themselues as masters of mankind each an Oracle I know you wash your hands your words condemne their insolencie you will not seeme to participate of their fault But what is in your heart Are not you too one of those that abbet a priuate judgment against a publike You plead against the power of the Church to determine matter of faith in her generall assemblies that I see And I know too that you punish men for not conforming themselues to the determinations of one not generall Reconcile these if you can And tell me if I be not bound to conforme my judgment to the judgment of a Councell when it is perfectlie oecumenicall what shall binde me to conforme it vnto one that is onelie Nationall if the Decrees of the whole Church may be lawfullie refused what obligeth me in conscience and before God to receaue the Decrees of your Conuocation Is euerie subiect bound to be of his Princes Religion or is it lawfull for him to subscribe against that he knowes to be the truth Is England since you began to teach growne bigger then all the world is a part is was not of old so bigger then the whole In way of excuse for your not subscribing to decrees oecumenicall you plead the Authoritie of some fewe men how vniustlie heareafter it will appeare and shall not the Authoritie of farre more and those great Schollers excuse vs in conscience for not subscribing to your priuate Articles wherein be many things generallie condemned in former ages To giue instance in one point that containes many In your 23. article you determine thus The Sacrifices of Masses in the which was commonlie said that the Priests did offer Christ for the quick and the dead to haue remission of paine or guilt were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits So you Yet was this Sacrifice frequented f Missa abominatio in calice aureo propinata omnes reges terra populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim suae salutis in hac vna voragine statuerint Caluin Instit li. 4. c. 18. See the Protest Apol. tract 3. Sect. 1. and in the Conclusion to the Iudges Sect. 6. 10. generallie when Luther began to make your Schisme It was auowed in the g S. Iren. li. 4. c. 32. Noui testamenti Nouam docuit oblationem quam Ecclesia ab Apostolis accipiens in vniuerso mundo offert Deo Concil Nicenum 1. can 14. S. Cyrill cum eo Concil Ephes in Anathem 11. S. Augu. Conc. 1. in Psalm 33. Nondum erat sacrificium Corporis Sanguinis Domini quod nunc diffusum est toto orbe terrarum S. Ambros de Sacram. li. 4. 5 S. Cyrill Catech. myst 5 S. Chrysost lib. 3. 6. de Sacerdotio Hom. 17. in Epist ad Hebraeos His Liturgie is yet extant And so is S. Basils too S. Gregor Nyssen Hom. 1. de Resurr Praeoccupat impetum violentum ac sese in oblationem victimam offert pro nobis Sacerdes simul agnus Dei. Vide Disp li. 5 c. 9 Coccium in Thesanro t 2. li. 6. a. 4. times primitiue And our Sauiours h This is my bodie which is broken for you This is the blood of the new testament which is shed for you words registred in the i 1. Cor. 11. Matt. 26. That it was offered for the quick and the dead it is also testified abundantlie S. Epiphan Haeres 75 where he saith also the Church receaued it by tradition S. Cyrill Cathec 5. Pro omnibus oramus qui ante nos vita functi sunt maximum credentes animarum iuuamen pro quibus offertur obsecratio sancti illius tremendi quod ante nos iacet Sacrificij S. Chrysost Homil. 3 in Epist ad Phil. Non frustra hac ab Apostolis sunt legibus constituta vt in venerandis inquam atque horrisicis mysterijs memoria corum fiat qui decesserunt nouerant hinc multum ad illos lucri accedere multum vtilitatis S. August in Enchirid. ad Laurent c. 110. lib. de cura pro mort c. 1. c. 4. Non sunt praetermittenda supplicationes pro Spiritibus mortuorum vt quibus ad ista desunt parentes aut filij ab vna is exhibeatur â—ia matre Ecclesia Lib. 9. Confess c. 13. Meminerint ad altare tuum Monica famulae tuae cum Patritio quondam eius coniuge c. S. Ioan. Damasc Orat. quod defuncti Missis inuentur Quod quidem citra vllam controuersiam Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia sine vlla ambiguitate retinet c. Vt consuetudinis testem â—llum cito The like appeares by the Liturgies Where obserue that I reflect preciselie vpon the termes of your Article which condemneth vnbloodie Sacrifice offered by the Priest for the Quick and the Dead to haue remission of paine or guilt If this be a blasphemous fable the whole world was in Errour So commonlie was it said and esteemed lawfull and so vniuersallie frequented See further Gualterius his Chronographicall table verit decima The Protestants Apol. tract 1. Sect. 3. subd 4. and Sect. 7. subd 6. The Conference of Cath. and Prot. doct li. 2. c. 24. angl Bible being vnderstood in their natiue proper sence do k What necessitie there is to enquire into the true sence of these words This is my bodie will best appeare in the after-examination of the diuers consequences of your owne sence to wit your doctrine of transsubstantiation corporall and materiall presence propitiatorie sacrifice and proper adoration all which depend vpon your Romish exposition of the former words of Christ The issue then wâ—ll be this that if the words be certainelie true in a proper and litterall sence then wee are to yeild to you the whole cause Morton Instit. of Masse li. 2. c. 1. I omit to note how Luther who did impugne the Sacrifice of Masse had his instructions from the Deuil as doth appeare still by his owne booke de Missa Priuata p. 228 Ego coram vobis And p. 230 â— â—n summa Edit Wittemb anno 1558. where he puts dâ—wne the Deuils arguments amongst which one is against vnbloodie Sacrifice Contra institutionem Christi Missa vsus es pro Sacrificio c. §. quarto confessedlie make for and confirme it Now should wee subscribe to your Article wee should contradict all this Wee should contradict open Scripture interpreted by the whole Christian world and by the l And this Spirit is the Holie Ghost Ioh. 14. 16. Spirit in it And whilst you sollicite vs so to do what do you but abbet a priuate Spirit and this too importunelie vnseasonablie then when you denie to the whole Church power to define the veritie euen of this cause or to declare the sence of Scripture touching it in her Councels oecumenicall I am not disposed
to beleeue that a part is greater theÌ„ the whole The Authoritie of m England also before Caluin was borne beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse and offered it for the quick and the deade See the Prudentiall Ballance all NatioÌ„s Christian moues me more then the Authoritie of one n Other Protestants admit not your Confession onlie now deuided and apart Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie or that bread properlie was crucified for my sinnes I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene not wiser then the Church I reuerence her decrees and am readie to be directed by her Whether those you pretend vnto were so too will appeare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale â—n which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herself Of such Councels your fellowes haue questioned many things as first who hath power to call them secondlie what persoÌ„s are to be in them thirdlie who is to preside Fourthlie whether they be infallible in their decrees fiftlie which be such Councels The Controuersie wee are to speake of is none of these but onlie what learned men Catholikes haue deliuered taught about the infallibitie of a CouÌ„cell supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall which supposition being premised The four first your selues honour with the title of oecumenicall and it is confessedlie a possible supposition the Question is this Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie â—ecumenicall such as were generall â—nd approued that in decrees of Faith they might mistake and â—rre Wee dispute not you and 〈◊〉 now whether this or that Councell be such a Councell That is another matter Nor whether such a Councell supâ—ose it be and define be infalâ—ble But what men Cathoâ—ike Deuines haue auerred â—ouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall entire and â—pproued The termes of the Question â—e remarkable Councels not whatsoeuer but generall and â—pproued or entirelie oecumeâ—icall Deuines of the Catholike â—ommunion not Hereticks Wee know that Hereticks reâ—use entire approued Councels Matters of Faith not matters â—f Fact Auouched openlie the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the iudge Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue specified in the Quaere Which if it were true that I note this by the way the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding continue firme The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre and negligence of discipline in a Superiour is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found and least of all by obscure passages Dark and hard speaches may be found in o Vide S. Hieron Apolog. adu Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur innocenter quaedam minus cautè loqunâ—i sunt quae non possint peruersarum hominum calumniam declinare vide S. Aug. de Praedest Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers that seeme to make againsâ— such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall and some Fathers haue doubted of some â—aue denied p Euseb Hist Eccles li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron de Script Eccles in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru p. 664. See the Disp pag. 431. bookes of Scriâ—ture which all now beleeue â—o be Canonicall wherefore if 〈◊〉 this matter of Councels-auâ—â—oritie the like should haue â—appened the tenet of Assistanâ—e giuen to them in their deâ—rees of faith being grounded 〈◊〉 Scripture and hauing for it 〈◊〉 more euident perpetuall tradiâ—â—on then you can shew for diâ—ers parts of Scripture which â—ou do beleeue to be diuine â—ere still euen by you in like â—anner to be admitted and â—aintained vnles you think it â—wfull to reiect those Books alâ—â— because once doubted of or â—enied and neuer to beleeue â—at which might with a preâ—nce of authoritie be oppoâ—â—d or contradicted Thus I could answer and â—are the labour to talke further of the matter Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becausâ— you wrong some that be leaâ—ned worthie Authors and some Fathers too least you finâ— adherents that will beleeuâ— you to the preiudice of theâ—selues and others vpon yoâ— bare word when they sâ—â— none contradict and confuâ— that you boast of I will suruâ—â— the citations Our dispute in this matteâ— is to be of Catholikes it is as bâ—fore was noted impertineâ—â— to talke of others and of sucâ— as in plaine termes haue auouchâ— and maintained what you prâ—tend they did Wee know thâ— some haue beene mistaken 〈◊〉 great matters and yet contâ—nued in the Church either bâ—cause the thing was not suffâ—cientlie brought to light 〈◊〉 matters appertaining to diuinâ— faith be not at all times equaâ—lie proposed or because they were readie to submit themselues As in the QuestioÌ„s of the Canon of Scripture of Baptisme giuen by Hereticks c. and conforme their iudgment as soone as the Church declared her self Wee know â—oo that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith and of these some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach and before in all ages â—uen the primitiue Others haâ—e discouered their temptaâ—ions with all the motions of â—heir vnderstanding to and â—ro concealing onlie the finall â—esolution or euent Of which â—nfirmitie some and not wiâ—hout scandall haue exhibited â—hemselues by their writings â—ublicke spectacles to the â—orld With those you and 〈◊〉 need not meddle being to â—peake of such onlie if any can â—e found as haue openlie denied the infallibilitie aboue specified and yet enioyed the communion of the Church notwithstanding such a knowne deniall She doth not thrust out of her communion one who doth onlie propose his doubtes to be resolued nor yet if by way of disputation he venters to far but without auouching especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment or if he so conceale his mind or vtter himself so that nothing can be directlie proued against him Secret and concealed thoughts she cannot look into Euerie one is to be presumed good vnles the contrarie may be proued As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church are lawfullie presumed to haue receaued her tenets vnles it be made appeare otherwise Though it be true that some who liue amongst vs oâ—herwhile be not of vs. Some â—o beare themselues for Caâ—holikes who be in their hearâ—es Atheistes or Heretikes There be no doubt Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia 2. Corint 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi ex vobis vnus diabolus est Ioan. 6.
also by his instigation seemeth good to vs. That he did acknowledg infallibilitie in sincere approued Councells it is further manifest by that he held of the Popes iudgmeÌ„t If he thought the resolution of doubts in faith were to be made by him and that his decision was a truth so certaine that it could not be gainesaid he without question made no lesse esteeme of a generall and approued Councell wherein the Popes iudgment and determination is included and consequentlie when he questions or reiects the authoritie of Councells he meanes not those wherein the Pope defines or such as he approues and so not all that are vnder the name of generall but some onelie as hath beene said before Now that he had that estimation which I haue mentioned of the Popes iudgment and dedefinition it is manifest by the 47. Chapter where professedlie he doth vndertake to proue it bringing to this purpose manie testimonies out of S. Augustine S. Hierome Rufinus Origen the Bishops of Africk and others The title of the Chapter is Quod Papa habet ab antiquo potestatem insringibilem ad determinandum fidei veritates debellandum cancellandum omnes falsitates haereticas And in the verie nn Orthodoxi omnes ad iudices Christi currunt vicarios ordinatè requirunt vt tandem planam teneant veritatem Propter hoc enim vt verè credunt licet Doctores vltra eos Episcopos inter omnes mortales singillatim acceptos petere Papam cuius moderameÌ„ decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus Apud ipsum enim piè credebant totius fidei nostrae latere mysteria pectus eius imbutum butyro illo prophetico quo sciret reprobare malum eligere bonum Walden to 1. li. 2. c. 47. Nouit Hieronymus apud Papam Romanum authoritatem este ad emendandum fidem incongruam vel ad probandum Catholicam postquam à tanto Apostolatu haberetur vt recta sine dubio foret per null â—maltum violanda Ad eiusdem quoque Damasi Papa doctrinam tanquam ad infallibilem fidei regulam Catholici Episcopi illo tempore suos aduersarios haereticos coëgerunt Ibidem vbi etiam refert illud quod suprà dictum est ex Hier. de Sancti Marci Euangelio per Sanctum Petrum approbato beginning he saith Papae moderamen decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus the Popes direction and decision was by the Fathers marke that by the Fathers held for a truth which cannot be contradicted To the same purpose are manie things added in the next Chapter which is of the prerogatiue of perpetuall immunitie in the Church of Rome where amonge other things he saith that oo Propter hanc incorruptionem claritatem famosam omnes viri Catholici quantumcunque magni quantumlibet sancti simul authoritate territi magnae sedis ab hac susceperunt in dubijs fidei documenta terrifica cap. 48. all Catholick men how great how holie soeuer haue from that See receaued documents in doubts of faith and that it is as he speakes in the words of Cyrill stabilita inquassabiliter so established that it cannot be moued or shaken and more to the same purpose which in the additions you may reade So that I may leaue this as sufficientlie demonstrated out of his booke that you were mistaken in the sence of the words obiected Out of that which hath beene related from him it appeares also that I may leaue a note for such as vpon this occasion may chaunce hereafter to looke on him first that he puts diuers degrees of adhesion deuines expresse it by certitudo maior maior ex parte subiecti respectiuelie to verities diuerslie proposed Secondlie thar with him these proponents are infallible vizt the Church symbolicall that part of it which is now present including both Pastors and people a perfect and syncere generall Councell and the Church of Rome as it is head or the Pope defining Thirdlie that the Pope Councell and present Church when it will seeke the veritie of anie point of faith called into question or the authoritie of any writing or scripture to knowe whether it be diuine or no is to looke into the symbolicall Church which hath all the Christian lawe with the meaning written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God and there to finde it not in euerie page of this greate booke not expressed in the faith of euerie part but in the booke And if after the search made it be proposed by the Pope in a generall Councell by the present Church receaued or by the Pope in Councell to the Church all are according to his principles to receaue and to beleeue it Fourthlie that the present Church finding and proposing the veritie and the symbolicall in whom she finds it beleeuing and testifying the same doe make vp one organ where by the holie Ghost the spirit of truth doth auouch it to the world Fiftlie that besides the authorities before mentioned all contained in the Church wherein our sauiour pp Ego vobiscum omnibus diebus Mat 28. qui loquitur in me Christus 2 Corim 13. Parecletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aeteâ—nuÌ„ spiritum veritatis Ioh 14. In vobis erit Ibidem Non enim vos estis qui loquimini sed Spiritus Patris vestri qui loquitur in vobis Matt. 10. likewise and his spirit be there be in it also diuers other degrees of authoritie as of generall Councells not including the Popes approbation not by the Church or him disapproued of particular Churches especiallie qq Ecclesiarum Catholicarum inter quas sanê illae quae Apostolicas sedes habere epistolas accipere meruerunt c. S. Aug. 2. Doct. Chri. c. 8. such as the Apostles haue liued in and amongst them chieflie the Roman though considered with abstraction from the Popes authoritie by reason of the traditions left in her by the two great Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul of nationall or prouinciall Synods and the like all which according to this Author haue their waight though not the same with the Pope in Councell I omit to pleade further that Waldensis was at Constance in the Councell whereof I spake before treating of Cameracensis and passe vnto the next §. IV. 1. Panormitan the Lawier speakes of a Councell not approued by the Pope nor by the Church diffused which Councells the Question meddles not withall 2. It were possible he thinks for God considering his absolute power to conserue the true faith in one man or woman 3. Antoninus his mind touching Councells PVto tamen quod si Papa moueretur melioribus rationibus authoritatibus quà m Concilium quod standum esset sententiae suae Nam Concilium potest errare sicut aâ—ià s errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem raptum Et infrà Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium Generale non potest
potest The Church because it relyeth not on reason but on the diuine authoritie prouidence and assistance and hath it infalliblie promised vnto her can in no sort or manner nullo modo determine besides the truth or erroneouslie or against God Whence it followes as before that if the Church doth applie her testimonie vnto any booke auouching and publikelie declaring it to be scripture or to any proposiâ—ion determining it to be a point of â—aith and proposing it vnto the world for such there can be accorâ—ing to this author no further queâ—tion made of it since the diuine â—rouidence doth so guide her that â—n such definitions she in no sort â—an iudge erroneouslie or determine â—esides the truth â— Neither is this integritie in deâ—â—nition violated or our sauiours promise of assistance broken if not in matter of diuine beleefe such as â—or the good of his Church God â—ath reuealed but in i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse praeâ—er fidem arbitratur Celestius quà m sunt illae in quibus â—lua fide qua Christiani sumus aut ignoratur quid verum 〈◊〉 sententia definitiua suspenditur aut aliter quam est â—umana infirma suspicione conijcitur Velâ—â—â— cum quaeâ—â—tur qualis vel vbi sit Paradâ—sus cum tamen esse illum â—aradisum fides Christiana non dubitet Vel cum quaeriâ—r vbi nunc sit Elias c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in corâ—ore vel extra corpus in terâ—ium caelum sit raptus Apoâ—olus c. vel quot sunt Caeli c. vel vtrum elementa â—undi huius conspicabilis quatuor an plura sint c. vbi â—otuit Methusalem viuere c. Quis non sentiat in his atâ—e huiusmodi varijs innumerabilibus quaestionibus sine ad â—bscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissiâ—as latebras pertinentibus quas certo aliquo generâ— complecti ac definire difficile est multa ignorari salua Christiana fide alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine S. Aug. li. 2. cont Pelag. Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq 3. 4. 5. other questions which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer as where is Elias where Paradice how many heauens c. not in definition and attestation but in some particular * It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles and another thing to argue out of others Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere deduction and coniecture she doth inferre amisse Not euerie consequence orillation not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premises in matter of that nature hath infallibilitie according to this Author but the definitions and decrees all haue it If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other you may reade him or Canus or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells where you may with litle studie discerne it If it be replied that in his fourth Controuersie he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance to points onlie fundamentall excluding all other I answer that euen k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data taÌ„tummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis fideli populo ceâ—ta veritate tradeÌ„dis locum habet quae vel in coÌ„trouersiam vocantur vel alioqui ad publicaÌ„ Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent Staplet fid doc li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertineÌ„t c. vel non ad publicum aliquod commune dogma explicandum quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vsu versatur vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur populus autem implicitè in maiorum fide sed ad priuatam alicuius c. Ibidem there he doth extend it to all points of faith which either are called into controuersie at any time wherein the Church is or otherwise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church In which compasse is contained all that is in the Councell of Trent defined against you or in any other oecumenicall Councell proposed to be beleeued Your masters Luther Caluin and others called into question diuers things appertaining and intrinsecallie as parts to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion as bookes of holie scripture iustification Sacraments and the Masse And therefore if according to Stapleton the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vnâ—â— all points of faith called into question it is according to the same tenet extended vnto these which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith But in questions that are impertineÌ„t or * Such as some aboue pag. 97. litter i. in marg indifferent or that appertaine onlie to the direction of some one that is weake in iudgment and in some priuate case or to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie to conclude in questions that appertaine to the explicatioÌ„ of those things which are appendices additions rather then contained in or appertaining to the substance of faith if the Church should mistake it were not he thinks any preiudice to the graunt of assistance or the promised infallibilitie not if in matter of this nature she should affirme or discoursing as a Diuine which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth should inferre and logicallie l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo Ibidem conclude amisse But to make a publike decree of that which is false and propose it openlie to be beleeued of Christians as matter of faith that she cannot being in her publike decrees 〈◊〉 definition infallible as you heard him saie before And the same he hath proued at large both by Scripture and Theologicall reasons in diuers m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont 3. q 4 cont 4. q. 2. alibi places of his booke §. IX 1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie 2. Other witnesses or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture and not recommended by it or by the author of it wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings in authoritie His forbearing to presse an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike and consequentlie of her Councells too and admitting Scripture he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells esteeming them to be in their decrees of faith infallible What mending that is which he speakes of EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam caâ—onici appellantur didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere
intellecta vel à nobis S. Aug epist 111. Other bookes haue not in euerie part that infallibilitie other writers haue not such ample assistance as the Sacred writers had SI diuinarum scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua firmatur authoritate sine vllae dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist 112. 2. THe Second exception is that S. Augustine in an other place Epist 112. speakes not of writings only but of witnesses and leaues it as it is pretended in our choise whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scripture Wherevnto I answer that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings reiect all authoritie or testimonie that is other in your sence binding vs onlie to the scripture so as you pretend For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimonie of the Church as infallible esteeming it c S. August epist. 118. c. 5. most insolent madnes to contradict it yet the Church is not scripture To this purpose there be many places in him whereof I will cite one In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with an heretick about the Question of rebaptizing such as out of the Church had been baptized and vrging the custome of the Church which did receaue such as were penitent into communion without rebaptizing he makes this discourse d S. Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 19. If some wise man to whom our Lord Iesus giues testimonie should be consulted of vs in this Question wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs least wee should be esteemed to repugne not so much him as our Lord Iesus Christ by whose testimonie he was commended now our Lord Iesus doth giue testimonie to his Church wherefore as that Church diffused thorough all Nations beginning at Hierusalem doth receaue such penitents so without all windings and tergiuersation thou art to be receaued And if thou wilt not thou doest most perniciouslie cōtrarie to thy owne saluation striue against not me or any mā but our Sauiour himselfe whilst thou wilt not beleeue that thou art so to be admitted as that Church which he whom not to beleeue thou doest confesse to be detestable commends with his testimonie doth admit The same is confirmed out of the Gospell wherein our blessed sauiour saith to his Apostles and Disciples and in them to the Church that they should beare e Matth. 24. Ioan. 15 testimonie of him yet the Apostles the Disciples the whole Church be not Scripture Againe f Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me saith our Sauiour he that contemneth you contemneth me There is therefore an authoritie aliue and distinct from the written word which wee must yeeld vnto by S. Augustine also confessed and consequentlie it is not in our choise to beleeue or contemne any but the scripture Nor were the primitiue Christians without obligation of beleeuing the Gospell proposed vnto them by the Apostles before it was written downe as you knowe by those words which immediatelie followe their commission g Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condemned To the place obiected Supra pag 107. alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi creder◠vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited doe suggest an easie answer as this Others not commended by this authoritie beleeue or not beleeue as you see cause but others commended by this authoritie you must beleeue as farre as by it they are warranted and commended Our Sauiour proued that those who beleeued Moyses and the Prophets and the Psalmes must beleeue him for of him they giue testimonie The like it is of the Church if you beleeue the Prophets you must beleeue the vniuersall Church for they giue testimonie of it and as S. Augustine saith more cleere then of our i S. Augu. Enarr in psal 30. conc 2. Sauiour himselfe One testimonie may warrant another and so they will become in a manner one He that obaieth the magistrate doth therein honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Princes doth therein a dutie vnto God who commands it Wee stoope to God when with all reuerence we receaue his word written or vnwritten and wee submit our selues to the written word or Scripture when wee listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptization was come this k S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. 32. quia nec vos potestis proferre de Scripturis quarum nobis communis est authoritas ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum nec nos ita susceptum quantum ad hanc remattinet par nobis causa est Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authoritie is common to vs one comming from Heretikes againe baptized nor wee one so receaued for as much as concernes this matter that is producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other our cause is equall he shewes notwithstanding how euen in this point the Church in his time and he with it followed the most certaine authoritie of the Scripture l Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti c. for it is not of small regard or moment that whe among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part or faction began to be this Question did wauer and had the different Opiniōs of compartners or collegues amongst themselues without breach of vnitie it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obserued by the whole Catholike Church spred ouer all the world And a litle after wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of vs and euen in this thing when wee doe that which hath now seemed good to the vniuersall Church whom the authoritie of the same Scriptures doth commend that because the holie Scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this Question and of any other obscure Question pertaining to faith it is the same eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat let him require in it the iudgment of the same Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonstrate There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs You know that actions donne with ones owne hād by the motion of his owne spirit a man reputes not aliene but his owne So doth our B. Sauiour esteeme the actions of his mysticall bodie donne by the motion of his Spirit Settle
Ecclesiasticae doctrinae Idem in Eâ—st ad Episc Africae ouerthrowe the coÌ„trarie and to put the matter b Ego arbitrabar omniuÌ„ quotquot vnquaÌ„ fuere haereticorum inanem garrulitateÌ„ Nicaeno Concilio sedatam esse naÌ„ fides quae inibi a Patribus secuÌ„duÌ„ sacras Scripturas tradita confessionibus confirmata est satis mihi idonea efficax que videbatur ad omnem impietatem euertendam pietatem eius quae in Christo est fidei constituendaÌ„ Atque ideo diuersis Concilijs per GalliaÌ„ Hispanias Romae celebratis omnes qui in eo conuentu fuere istos luci fugas qui sese etiamnum occultant quae Arrij sunt sapiunt commâ— calculo vnius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percusserunt eâ— quod isti sibi nomina vendicauerint Synodorum c. 〈◊〉 Athanas Epist ad Epictet Qua igitur audacia fit vt post tanti Concilij authoritatem disceptationes aut quaestiones infâ—tuant Ibidem out 〈◊〉 question and so farre that who 〈◊〉 did oppose themselues were c Ego autem demiratus sum tuam pietatem haec sustinuisse quod non simul istos compescuerit piamâ—dem in Concilio Nicaeno traditam vt suprà illis proposâ—erit vt ijs auditis vel in quietem se darent vel si inquieti intradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur Ibidem â—ereticks It was a vaine thing so he steemed it in the Arians by other CouÌ„cells to seek to reuerse what was â—â—ere established the definition of â—â—e holie Ghost there made the word â—f God by that Councell remaines foâ—uer d Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud Nicenum aliâ— subinde concilia moliuntur quippe qui plusquam decem synodos iam instituerint in singulis semper aliquid innouantes c. ignari interim omnem plantationem quaâ— non plantauerit pater caelestis cradicandam esse verbâ—â— autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in aternum manet S Athanas Epist. ad Episc Africae verbum illud Domini per â—licaenum Concilium manet in aeterâ—um As for the comparison which he â—akes with scripture it e Catholici Scripturam Sacram non subijciunt sed anteponunt Concilijs neque in hoc vlla controuersia esâ— Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod si interdum aliqâ— Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Ecclesia siue 〈◊〉 Concilio non intelligunt quoad authoritatem secundum se sed quoad explicationem quoad nos Ibidem hurteth â—ot He that saith the scripture where it is plaine and vniuersallie â—eceaued is more powerfull then a Councell or that the eternall veâ—tie opeÌ„lie reuealed as it is to Saints 〈◊〉 more powerfull then scripture â—oth not preiudice infallibilitie Both â—ay haue it and yet one be more â—owerfull And this supposed visit â—hat both scripture and the Counâ—ell be infallible but the power of cripture more the discourse of S. Athanasius is conuincing He thaâ— will not submit his iudgment to thaâ— authoritie which is most powerfull doth in vaine pretend he will be ruled by the lesse he doth easilie contemne a Councell who contemneâ— the Scripture proposed by the vniuersall Church as the Arians did who contradicted open Scripture and all Antiquitie Neither doth this make any thing against the decision of controuersies by Councells for though the waie of Councells be a certaine waie to determine what wee must beleeue yet may there be another way to finde it out and that certaine too And doubtles he that seeth in scripture that which he knowes the whole symbolicall Church that which holds out the booke wherein â—he reades it doth beleeue is more powerfullie moued to giue assent then he that heares a Councell onâ—ie And our assent is more proue when the Prophets and Apostles all propose the same then when one alone doth auouch it though one Prophet or Apostle by himselfe be sufficient and infallible §. XII Vincentius Lirinensis will haue Church-authoritie relied vpon in matter of faith as certaine and vndoubted How a man is to carrie himself when matter of faith is questioned The way to finde the Catholike sence Generall Councels infallible in their decrees and those are Hereticks that contradict and oppose them SAepe magno studio summa attentione perquirens à quaplurimis sanctitate doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possim certa quadam quasi generali ac regulari viâ— Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae prauitatis falsitate discâ—nere huiusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus ferèretuli Quoâ— siue ego siue quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fraâ—des deprehendere laqueosque vitare in fide sanus atque integer permanere duplici modo munire fidem suam Domino adiouante deberet Primò scilicet diuinae legis authoritate tuâ— deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1. VINCENTIVS LIRINENSIS The argument taken from this Father is that in his golden treatise entitled Aduersus prophanas haereseô◠nouationes he hath omitted to specifie generall Councells and their decrees and diuers leaues are spent tâ— proue that he did not giue vnto them any place in the direction of our beleefe But no paines will serue Hâ— doth more then once or twice mention them and hath testified whaâ— he thought of their authoritie Two generall a Vicent Lyrin c. 1. waies there are to distinguish the truth from errour in matâ—er of Religion the one by Scripture â—he other by Tradition but the scripture is profound and obscure wheâ—evpon it hath come to passe that diuers heretikes haue interpreted it â—iuers waies so that to knowe the â—ight meaning of it it is necessarie â—o recurre to tradition and as he â—aith in the second chapter of his booke b Idem c. 2. vide Disp li. 5. c 1. li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. pag. 395 fine that the line of the propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sence Which Catholik sence may be found three waies chieflie according as he conceaues it one is to see if it be held by the symbolicall or vniuersall Church a second is to see if it be held by the Fathers each writing in his owne time a third to see whether it be defined in any generall Councell By these three waies principallie a man is directed to the Catholik or true sence of scripture and all three are not necessarie but any of the three will serue the turne c Vâ—iâ—nt c. â— In the Catholik Church saith he wee must haue a great care wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where that which hath been beleeued euer that which hath been beleeued by all for this is truelie and properlie Catholick as the power of the name and the definition doth declare which truelie doth comprehend all vniuersallie And this is donne in fine if we follow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Vniuersalitie wee shall follow
this assistance the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you Ioann 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer Ephes 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine Such a giddines happens in other things also besides fundamentalls The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall to all our Sauiours doctrine as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels as in that of Trent And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine in the Donatists case about Baptisme which controuersie not being expressed in the Apostles Creed was in a Councell defined and in vertue of this assistance by the whole Christian world Neither doe you finde the difficultie which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell put into the Creede Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke infallibilitie cannot be inferd and more you will not graunt But our Sauiour graunted more he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth Ioh. 14. 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of he cannot misse the truth or teach a lie The sence which he doth inspire teach affirme is certaine and the falsitie of any one thing were it possible he should teach a falsitie would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie in the estimation of his creatures yea the whole Scripture would be questioned if this ground were not firme â— Petr. 1. if that were not certaine which men inspired by the holie Ghost and affirming as from him or he in them might be false Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture it hath assistance and is infallible but not els This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture or teach and define matter of faith whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith Ioann 15. without him wee can doe nothing and therefore he hath promised assistance that wee may knowe his will and our dutie and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth The Iewes and Pagans and heretikes looke on Scripture but they doe not vnderstand it The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost left to teach her and by his helpe doth vnderstaÌ„d What need a Schoolemaster if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke or will you call it instruction if he neuer tell him any thing but what the child himselfe knowes before you knowe moreouer that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture the written word or about the Apostles Creed or generall tradition assistance is necessarie and also for the sence of Scripture more then is by your definition fundamentall To omitt that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour by the promised assistance then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it for they dot not erre if they followe Scripture and iudge as it is there So little is the discretion of this answer and so small a benefit or rather no benefit you coÌ„ceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise Whereas wee beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word he can and will make and bringe to passe Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts He writes his lawes in her heart Ierem. 31. what hinders him and keepes his words Isa 59. in her mouth He hath opened a Schoole and put a Master in the chaire Docebit saith he he shall teach and if the lessoÌ„ be forgot suggeret Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues he is Master and shall teach it Fiftlie you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells but no more Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost and in Councells He defineth Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis Act. 15. were the words of the Councell it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs not to vs onlie but to him in himselfe and in vs heere assembled with his assistance promised in cases of this nature and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe to decide a controuersie our act is his act 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good In S. Paul Christ spake the Apostles words 1. Thess 1. were acknowledged to be and were indeed the words of God Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church the definition is his you must beleeue it and Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words S. Aug. suprà there is no more doubt to be made of it In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquenteâ—eâ— homine Volunt tameÌ„ posse ab eo prouocari in foro in â—erno sea conscientiae Siâ— Wittakerus c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno scilicet in fide ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo non in interno teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei eamque non confiteri coram hominibus nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis in animas ipsas ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum Reuerendiss Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular You finde none that denies what wee beleeue Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs affirme it constantlie And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians then the Apostles themselues whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell and this too though the point so determined were neither fundamentall nor found in Scripture You shall finde also as hath beene likewise insinuated
Docete Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know they be grounded they take the secure way The way which you take is temerarious it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three against the common and against the Spirit of the Church generallie yet because it likes him for that it is easier to be conceaued or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath or better suting to the libertie which he could wish he is coÌ„tent to â—hink the authoritie of those â—â—o or three though the â—â—st contradict sufficient to â—ake is probable and then iudâ—ng of the reasons and motiâ—es which they bring as his â—â—fections incline him he thinks 〈◊〉 at last certaine So did the â—rians depending vpon the â—uthoritie first of their leaâ—ers and then deeming their â—otiue as that pater maior me 〈◊〉 to be manifestlie against the Church and for them Neither be the Leaders themselues Arch-heretickes wiâ—â—out pretence of authoritie they cite the d Fortasse aliquisinterroget An Haeretici diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Vtuntur planè vehemeÌ„ter quidem nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina per Moysi per Regum volumina per Psalmos per Apostolos per Euangelia per Prophetas Siue enim apud suos siue alienos siue priuatim siue publice siue in sermonibus siue in libris siue in conuiuijs siue in plateis nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferuÌ„t quod non etiam Scripturae verbâ—s adumbrare conentur Vinc. lirin c. 35. Si quis interroget queÌ„piam Haereâ—â—corum sibi talia persuadentem vnde probas vnde doces quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem antiquam fidem dimittere debeam Statim ille mille testimonia mille exempla mille authoritates parat de lege de psalmis de apostolis de prophetis quibus nouo malo more interpretatis ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo moduÌ„ istum didicisse Scriptum est enim Scriptures â—â—d gleane obscure speaches â—t of auncient good writers which in shewe do make for them When a man once takes this â—ay he squares out his Religion to himself or rather he runnes out of all from one thing to another from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable till at last is he findes himself most certainlie in Hell Faith is a firme assent but his if well examined is not so It is not diuine faith he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others with a shadow If two or three tell him thatâ— Councell may mistake though the rest auouch the contrarie he is content to think it may and heereupon presentlie doubts of all that is so defined Then further proceeding iâ— the same sillie motiue if thâ— whole Church auouch a thing yet so as some two or three at some time or other held thâ— contrarie he will not beleeâ—â— the Church neither No nor the Apostles if any tell him they might erre A Rainolds a Whittakers authoritie makes the contrarie to him probable and by that time he hath read their bookes he thinkes himself certaine of it But in the meane while where is the faith of such a man wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent To the Scriptures No their authoritie who denied them makes him doubt To the Creed nor so the authoritie of two or three serues his turne and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused Arianisme Nestorianisme Sabellianisme Eutichianisme Pelagianisme Lutheranisme Swinglianisme all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbetâ—ors whereas two or three serue his turne Where then is his religion in his mouth peraduenture but in his heart well examined there is none Others there be not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned but determined extreamelie vnto one The Puritan for example to Iohn Caluin whom he prefers before the rest all together Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former AmoÌ„gst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent this is one that in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding He will not denie that this is true he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall is greater then the Authoritie of one single man The greatest â—chollers haue euer stooped to 〈◊〉 yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin then such a Councell Yea rather then all the knowne Churches in the world though e Though some now disseÌ„t as you for example yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood consenting As in the matter of the Masse vnbloodie Sacrifice reall Presence And what way is there think you to deale with such a man or to what end is it to dispute with him If you cite Scripture he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient of the whole Church deliuering the sence of it It is so in the point of the Reall presence And in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too he will be his owne chooser and will iudge himself which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded Vide disput de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the coÌ„trouersie betwixt the Church and him touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant The Spirit no doubt But in whom in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time Not so They might erre he thinkes and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were and all the Pastors of the world though consenting they might all he thinks be deceaued Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture or about the sinceritie of the letter in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master In Master Iohn So he beleeues rather theÌ„ he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church Now tell me is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate to challeng to ones self or his Master Iohn authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters and not onlie to them Ephes 4 in what age soeuer but absolutelie to the Church without exempting the first Disciples and Apostles These for
works openly denied infallibilitie to the decrees of approued generall Councels Much lesse can the passage alleaged serue your turne if the word Christians be not heere taken so strictly as your inference doth suppose but so farre extended that heretickes come vnder the name too for then it may be true that some Christians doe seeme to thinke so and yeâ— no Catholikes thinke so there being other Christians in the world beside Catholikes euen in his opinion that said and was it not the same b Quaeso vt mihi reueles an aliqui sentiant quod tota multitudo Christianorum valeat haeretica prauitate foedari Mag. Iudaei Sarraceni etiam Pagani firmissimè tenent fidem ChristianaÌ„ esse erroneaÌ„ Disc Non intendo quaerere de illis sed de Christianis sub Christianis etiam Haereticos comprehendendo Mag. Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teueat Ockam dialog par 1. li. 5 c. 35. Ockam thinke you that vnder the name of Christians he did also comprehend heretikes who desired also in this Dialogue to heare the contrarie Opinions of whomsoeuer Catholikes or Heretikes yea and sometimes others â—hat no c Nolo vt quod tenes in mente reueles sed respoÌ„siones aliquas quae cogitari vel teneri potuerint à quocumque non differas recitate c. sententias contrarias quorumcumque Catholicorum Haereticorum interdum alia quae à nullo Christiano tenentur licet possint habere Catholicos Haereticos defendentes te desidero recitare sic enim multiplicius efficacius exercitabimus studiorum ingenia Idem c. 34. Christians hold This for your argument of omnes and quidam Christiani some Christians and all Christians VNa sola est Ecclesia militans quae contra fidem errare non potest quia de sola vniuersali militante inuenitur in Scripturis authenticis quod errare non potest Concilium autem generale licet sit pars Ecclesiae militantis vniuersalis tamen non est Ecclesia vniuersalis Igitur temerarium est dicere quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest Baro. p. 361. ex Ockam dial 2. THe next thing obiected is an argument of those some Christians whereby they imagined that perhaps the thing which they did seeme to thinke might be proued The vniuersall diffused Church onlie iâ— vnerrable but a generall Councell iâ— not the vniuersall diffused Church Ergo. In which argument the proposition or is Maior false as our Deuines doe proue by playne testimonieâ— of scripture and our aduersaries 〈◊〉 necessitie must acknowledg aâ— much vnles they will oppose them selues to the Apostles and Father and Pastors of the Church all together For if onely the Symbolicaâ— or vniuersall Church diffuse through all Nations and times hatâ— the priuiledge of not erring in matter of diuine Faith it followes thaâ— the Pastors and Fathers and Apostles all consenting are not to bâ— relied on as a proponent infallible since these be not the whole 〈◊〉 they neuer so glorious a part of the Church vniuersall Howbeit tâ— Question here is not of that argument or proposition but whetheâ— Ockam doth denie the infallibilitie of approued generall Councells or whether he doth name or giue other sufficient notice of any Catholike that denied it He names here none â—t all neither doth he say that they were Catholikes who seemed to thinke c. and least any should suspect him he professeth in the person of the other Dialogist to be of the d Quamuiâ— firmissimè puteÌ„ quod Concilium Generale haereticari non potest tamen rationes pro assertione contraria libenti animo auscultabo Mag. Quod Concilium generale possit errare contra fidem rationibus exemplis videtur posse probari Prima autem ratio talis est Vna est sola vniuersalis Ecclesia c. vt pag. 5. Ockam li. 5. c. 25. argumenti verò solutionem apud ipsum innenies cap 9. habetur inferius ad lit h. §. ad vndecimam minde that a generall Councell cannot â—rre in faith The like proceeding you may obserue in him els-where as in the last Chapter of this booke where he bringes reasons and leaues them without answer too to proue that the whole multitude of Christians hauing vse of reason pastors and people men and women may erre against the faith and that it is temeâ—arious to say they will neuer doe so though he there confesse this which â—e goeth about to proue to (e) Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teneat Disc Licet nescias Christianum aliquem hoc tenere tamen pro hoc al quas rationes excogitare nitaris Mag. Ad quaestionem falsam nulla ratio nisi sophistica potest adduci Disc Concedo quod pro assertione praedicta nulla valet ratio nisi sophistica allegari tamen saepè rationes apparentes difficiles ad soluendum pro falsis inducuntur Vnde qualescunque inuenire coneris Mag. Quod tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium possit contra fidem errare tali ratione probatur c. Ockam li. 5. c 35. Ergo temerarium est asserere quod nunquam tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium contra fidem errabit Ibidem in fine be â—â—lse as it is indeed and manifestly against the Scripture Daniel 7. I say 49. Mat. 18. Io. 14. Ephes 4. Apoc. 20. and that he knewe no Christian at all he liued before the Protestant Religion that held it ESt quaedam opinio quae viam eligens mediam praedictis omnibus in aliquo aduersatur tenens quod Scripturae diuinâ— contentae in Biblia eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus Vniuersall Ecclesiae atque Apostolis absque vlla dubitatione in omnibus est credendum Nullis verò alijs quantacunque doctrina vel sanctitate praepolleant est in omnibus absque omni exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda Ita quod nec in Concilio Cenerali si esset congregata vniuersalis Ecclesia noâ— decretis aut decretalibus vel assertionibus summorum Pontificum nec Doctorum dictis siue fuerint ab Ecclesia approbati siue non fuerint approbati est necessariò credulitas in omni dicto casu absque omni exceptione praestanda Licet in multis negari non debeant quoad multa Christiani ipsis credere teneantur Baro p. 361. ex Ockami dial 3. par tract 1. li. 3. c. 4. 3. THe third thing obiected is that he mentions an Opinion holding amongst many other things that credit is not to be giuen to a generall Councell in euery thing it saies and in euery case without exception Were this his owne tenet our cause were not hurt for wee do not maintaine in Councells of the Church approued much lesse in all Councels that are stiled generall such an vnlimited and vniuersall infallibilitie as these words import in omni dicto casu absque omni exceptione in all they say and in all cases without exception neither indeed
he doth expound it repugnantes some repugnant to other and if in his iudgment they be repugnant you haue no reason to conceaue he doth approoue them all Thirdlie he doth not name any Catholike author holding that assertion which you speake of or the rest which followe but tooke them out of (b) Ex 1. p. li 5. capitibus 1. 2. 3. 7. 22. 25. 32. 35. Ochams Dialogues whence he (c) Confer capita 28. 30. 31. 32. 34. 35. cum Quaestione Vesperiali Quaestione de Resumpta Petri Camer transcribes and some times verbatim diuers peeces of these questioÌ„s which you would make vse of Neither doth he omitt to recite that opinion of all Christians as many as haue vse of reason erring possiblie all together against faith which Ocham himselfe had said was false and the reasons for it those which Ockam giues he calls apparentes seeming yet himselfe in the end of this Question (d) Ex praedictis sequuntur aliquae propositiones corollariae Prima est quod semper in Ecclesia vniuersali erunt plures adulti illustrati veritate fidei Secunda est quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plures iusti formati virtute speâ— Tertia quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plures electi inflammati charitate Dei. Prima propositio patet quia c. Quast Vesper contradicts it and maintaines the contrarie EX sacra Scriptura non conuincitur quod sit aliqua Ecclesia particularis quae regulae legis Christi semper conformetur Baro p. 363. ex Alliac Quaest Vesp Concilium generale poteâ— defformari legi Christi idem p. 364. ex Quaest. Resumpta Ecclesia Romana quae distinguitur à tota congregatione fideliuâ— sicut pars à toto potest haereticari Ibidem ex eadem quast 2. THe second thing obiected is that he thought it could not be conuinced out of Scripture that any Church distinct from the vniuersall is alwaies free from errour whence is inferd that in his opinion it caÌ„not be conuinced out oâ— Scripture that a generall Councelâ— is alwaies free I answere first weâ— maintaine not all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall Secondlie it is one thing to saie lawfull Councells are free from errour in definition and an other thing to saie that wee can proue this by Scripture it is one thing to saie the Epistle of S. Iames hath sacred authoritie and another thing to saie that by Scripture you can proue it Wherefore suppose this Author had said in his yonger daies that he thought the infallibilitie of full and lawfull Councells could not be proued ex â—acra Scriptura by Scripture it doth â—ot follow that he denied their inâ—â—llibilitie Thirdlie what he saith in â—hat Question is deliuered they be (e) Haec dicta sint de tertia conclusione suis adiunctis de tota ista quaestione solùm disputatiuè non assertiuè Petrus Camer Quaest de Resumptâ sine his owne words disputatiuè â—â—on assertiuè by waie of dispute not â—y waie of affirmation wherefore if â—ou wronge him not you must not â—ie he held that Councells infallibiâ—tie such Councells as had all conâ—tions necessarie could not be proâ—ed yea and against a stubborne â—â—uersarie sufficientlie conuinced â—ut of Scripture Fourthlie this which â—as said not assertiuè but onelie disâ—â—tatiuè he submitted to the iudâ—â—ment (f) Non est ergo quò securiùs fugiam quaÌ„ filius ad matreÌ„ filius Ecclesiae ad matrem Ecclesiam c. Ad hanc igitur coÌ„fugiens sua lege regulari â—â—piens me dicta mea omnia suae suorum filiorum tam â—sentium quam absentium charitatiuae correctioni committo â—sub hac alijs protestationibus fieri consuetis quas supâ—co haberi pro repetitis gratia breuitatis ad quaeâ—onis responsionem accedo Idem Quaest Vesper in prinâ—â— of the Church therely reâ—acting or disauowing according 〈◊〉 the manner of the schooles yet in â—â—e what in this disputation might â—â—rchance escape amisse either for â—â—e substance or the manner of his speech And finallie being after much more studie and reading of Scriptures publikelie in the nature oâ— Professor made Bishop and Cardinall he was called to the Counceâ— of (g) Acta Conc. Constant Sess 20. Constance and there witâ— the rest of the Bishops he sufficientlie made knowne that he though all were bound to beleeue what 〈◊〉 generall Councell and particularlâ— that of Constance did declare touching faith If you reade the interrogatories made (h) Interrogetur vtrum credat quod illud quod sacrum ConciliuÌ„ Constantiense vniuersalem Ecclesiam repraesentans approbauit approbat in fauâ—â— fidei ad salutem animarum quod hoc est ab vniueâ—â— Christi fidelibus approbandum tenendum quod 〈◊〉 demnauit condemnat esse fidei vel bonis moribus â—â—trarium hoc ab eisdem esse tenendum pro condemnato â—dendum asserendum Martinus quintus approbante Ceâ— Constantien vtrum credat sententiam sacri Const Conâ— supra 45. articuli Ioan. Wicklef Ioan. Hus latam 〈◊〉 re veram Catholicam c. Ibidem there by thâ— Pope sacro approbante Concilio yâ— will not vrge him any more in thâ— matter TOta multitudo Clericorum Laicorum virorum pâ— Ã vera fide deficere Baro p. 364. ex Alliac Quaâ—â— Resumpta Intentio autem mea conclusionis sicut patuit â—ctis â—eis erat quod data quacumque Ecclesia certae denâ—â—ionis quae non sit toti congregationi fidelium generalis verbi â—auâ—a Ecclesia Clericorum Ecclesia Italicorum Ecclesia Galliâ—orum c Ex Scriptura sacra non conuincitur quod semper sit â—liqua talis siue consimilis denominationis quae Christi legis reâ—ulae conformetur Idem ex eadem Quaestione 3. YOu conceaue withall what is to be said in answere to the rest â—biected out of him and particularâ—â—e vnto that of the Clergie where he â—eemes not to haue then well reflected on those words of S. Paul who â—oth testifie and his testimonie is in â—he Scripture that our Sauiour coÌ„stiâ—uted and (i) Ephes 4. gaue Pastors and Doctors â—o the consummation of the Saincts vnto â—he worke of the ministerie vnto the ediâ—ing of the bodie of Christ vntill wee â—eete all into the vnitie of faith that â—e be not children wauering and caried â—bout with euerie winde of Doctrine The like wee reade in Esaie vpon (k) Esay 62. thy walls o Hierusalem I haue appointed watchmen all the daie and all â—he night for euer they shall not hold â—heir peace And other places there â—re to this purpose verie plaine that â—â—nnot be auoided Neither did he finde himselfe able 〈◊〉 satisfie the argument taken from the nature of a Hierarchie and the acts pertaining to it that are alwaies to be found in the Church whilst it lasts that is all daies till the consummation of the world which argument is there brought and he doth endeuour but
could not finde an answer for it First he saith that supposing the whole Clergie should erre against the faith some one of them might haue power to giue orders to excommunicate or binde in way oâ— iurisdiction to consecrate and administer Sacraments and so saith he praelationis ordo remaneret in Ecclesiâ— the Order of Prelacie which is of Ecclesiasticall Superiours to their inferiours would remaine in the Church as also distinction of degrees Sacraments and other rights But his opponent would aske him instantlie hoâ— the distinction of degrees of Prieâ— and Bishop of Pastor and people how the order of Prelacie and poweâ— to consecrate absolue binde anâ— preach be within if the Preists anâ— Bishops if the Prelates and such 〈◊〉 haue this power be without He answers licet fortè non actu tamen in pâ—entiâ propinquâ though perchance not â—â—ctuallie yet in a neere power and this 〈◊〉 passiue power for if the Preists and Bishops be without the actiue is not within How then is there actuallie 〈◊〉 Hierarchie and the ministration before spoken of in the Church he â—eaues it heere and goes to trie (l) Secundo loco probat iste Magister secuÌ„dam parteÌ„ antecedentis sua principalis sc quod tota multitudo Clericorum non potest difformari legi Christi quia Deus ita statuit Sacerdotes Leuiticos c. â—oÌ„ firmat per aliqua superiùs tacta quia sequitur quod posâ—et cessare in Ecclesia ordo praelationis distinctio graâ—uum caetera contra Apostolum ad Ephes 4. vbi de Christo loquitur sic Et ipse dedit quosdam Apostolos â—uosdam autem Prophetas c. ad aedificationem corporis Christi sc Ecclesiae donec occurramus Imo quod deficeâ—e posset sacerdotium Christi SacrameÌ„ta alij ritus Ecâ—lesiae c. Ad ista potest probabiliter dici c. Ad confirmaâ—oneÌ„ licet supra tactum sit de materia argumeÌ„ti tamen adâ—uc potest dici dupliciter Vno modo quod licet tota mulâ—tudo Clericorum contra fidem erraret tamen aliquis â—acerdos remaneret habens potestatem ordinandi liganâ—â— conficiendi alia sacramenta conferendi sic reâ—anent in Ecclesia ordo praelationis distinctio graduum â—cramenta alij ritus Et licet fortè non in actu tamen 〈◊〉 potentia propinqua Petrus Camerac Quaest de Reâ—â—mpta another waie which is though no Clerkes at all remained no Bishops no Priests in all the world to consecrate ordaine gouerne preach or exercise anie Hierarchicall actes yet the Church thereby should noâ— loose the power to haue them anâ— why if none remaine to consecrate preach or make a priest because though she could neuer haue them bâ— humane power yet by Gods miraculouâ— operation she might And in fine hâ— concludes that though it be teâ—rarious to affirme that euer it shalâ— come to this yet to denie that Goâ— by his omnipotencie can thus restoâ— m Alio modo dicunt aliqui quod licet omnes Clerici haereticareÌ„tur aut omnino nulli remanereÌ„t propter hoc Ecclesia potestatem habeÌ„di praedicta nequaquam amitteret Licet illa nunquam habere posset per humanam potestatem sed per miraculosam Dei operationem qui sc diuersis modis posset de aliquibus laicis Catholicis Sacerdotes Episcopos ordinare hoc suae Ecclesiae reuelare In quo casu omnes Catholici debereÌ„t taliter ordinatos à Deo sicut veros Episcopos Sacerdotes habere Et licet temerarium esset asserere talem casum de facto aliquaÌ„â— euenire tamen esset etiam temerarium huius casus â—testatem negare Quia hoc esset de futuris in hypothesi per â—iraculum tantùm possibili temerè diuinare contra arâ—culum de Dei omnipotentia impudenter impingere Ibiâ—em vide Ockam Dial. 1. p. li. 5. c. 32. 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. â—dmiratione per moue or quod isti praesumunt asserere toâ—m Clerum posse falsitate haeretica irretiri quia vix â—nquam aliquis sine motiuo assentit errori aperias vnde â—ti mouentur pro opinione praedicta Ockam p. 1. li. 5. c. â—9 a Hierarchie or that he woulâ— if there should be neede were also temerarious And no doubt he thaâ— of stones can raise vp seed to Abraham can without the ministerie 〈◊〉 men if he thinke good make infidels beleeue and ordaine theâ— Priests and Bishops the question iâ— not of his absolute power but whether by vertue of the present institution there shall be Hierarchical power in the Church euer till thâ— consummation of the world Pastâ—res Doctores in opus ministerij doâ—â— occurramus omnes The Scriptuâ— affirmes it and the same was intended by that argument for which hâ— could not finde though he weâ— â—bout to seeke an answer And theâ—efore finding himselfe in those â—raites he thought it necessarie to â—ublish his protestation that what â—e said was (n) suprà ad lit c. onelie disputatiuè â—ot assertiuè leauing vs withall to â—onsider how dangerous a thing it 〈◊〉 for schollers to reade Ockams Diaâ—gues where is vnhappilie ministred â—ccasion of errour and whence he â—ooke manie things which you finâ—e in this writing TOta multitudo Clericorum Laicorum c. vt suprà pag. 26. IT is obiected further that he defends in his resumption that â—he whole multitude of Clerks and lay-men may fall from the true faith Wherein he is much wronged hâ— defends it not as appeares in the resumption of the seuerall parts 〈◊〉 that ratio quinta § o suprà ad lit l. Secundò probâ— secundam partem antecedentis prinâ—palis sc quod tota multitudo Clerâ—â—rum non petest difformari legi Chrisâ— where comes in the argument before mentioned of Hierarchicall ordeâ— and acts and in the solution yoâ— shall finde alwaies laicks remaininâ— in the Church and the same is alâ— manifest by his three propositions before p suprà ad lit d. cited wherein he saies theâ— will be alwaies in the Church pluâ— adulti illustrati veritate fidei pluâ— iusti formati virtute spei plures eleâ— inflammati charitate Dei many adoâ—ned with faith hope and charitâ— which all will not be woemen 〈◊〉 lesse you will learne of Ockam thâ— explication which he suggests 〈◊〉 he doth many strange ones elâ—â— that is q Ad secundam rationem vt in errorem ducantur si fieri possit etiam electi potest dici quod electi coÌ„prehendunt viros mulieres ideo per hoc quod iuxta promissionem Christi tempore Antichristi remanebunt electi non potest concludi quod illi electi â—nt viri quia mulieres tunc poterunt esse electae Ockam â—al p. 1. l. 5. c. 34. electae men that is woeâ— chosen or elected and then as a ingenious proficient in his Diaâ—gues make the like explication adulti and iusti You will recurre to the print or â—ppie for an excuse which plea â—ight be
admitted in some others â—t in a scholler that pretends to haâ— reade the Question in him and â—â—th vrge his authoritie against the â—hurch of God such a pretence â—th no place §. III. Waldensis yeilding to the Scripture a preminence in Authoritie will haue vs depend â—on the Church for the sence of it 2. She is â—o to declare which bookes are Canonicall â—ripture A speach of Canus touching Walâ—sis his Opinion examined 3. When he saith 〈◊〉 Fathers testimonie hath abolished all Heâ—â—es he doth not exclude the Authoritie of 〈◊〉 Church symbolicall or representatiue 4 â—e symbolicall Church he saith against Wiâ—ef is not the Predestinated people only but 〈◊〉 Vniuersitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the whole world 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot faile 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree HAecipsa fides authoritas Ecclesiae quantum homiâ—â— supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis â—â—thoritati succumbit Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est 〈◊〉 inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae infimam ratioâ— fides Ecclesiae Scripturas venerabiliter attollens exhibeus rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authoritaâ— alligans zona Pauli Idem ex eodem 1. WALDENSIS saith the authoâ—â—tie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture What this will you inferre that wee thâ—refore neede not obaie the decrâ—â— of Councells or that the Châ—â—ches authoritie is fallible Infallibâ—â—tie may be in others besides Scâ—â—pture The Apostles were not Scâ—â—pture yet were they infallible â—nesses of the trueth The Churcâ— the pillar and ground of trueth thoâ— the Church be not Scripture 1. Timoth. 3. Thâ— may be diuers Authorities infallâ— and one of them Subordinate to 〈◊〉 other And so are these two accâ—â—ding to this Author as you may â—by the places represented in the a Quamuis fides vniuersalis Ecclesiae inuenitur per Scripturas expressa ficut est paenè tota non tamen est eiâ—n authoritate par sed subijcitur Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum quod non licet de ipsa dubitare eo quod testimoniuÌ„ Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectuÌ„ fidei Christianae legis latio scripturae canonicae Subijcitur tamen ipsi sicut testis iudici testimonium veritati sicut praeconâ—zatio definitioni sicut praeco regi Ibâ—dem Quod aliquis pater vnus singulariter per se sensit potes aliquo saltem colore tuo decredere quod autem poenè omnes quasi vnus homo loquuntur fidei robur habet quia vnitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis Idem c. 25. margine One onely I will putt here because it serues also for that which followes In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke Doct. Fid. he declares how the sinceritie of the Churches testimonie in matters of faith is beleeued in the Creed there where we professe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church and amongst other things to this purpose hath these words Before the written Gospell this in the heart of the Church was the Gospell which Iesus Christ wrote and which the Apostles wrote in the harts of men and to whose testimonie euerie one must stand in the controuersies whether the text of the written Gospell be vnderstood or taken by the faithfull or subuerted by the Heretick whereof the Apostle speaks to the Corinthians saying â—ow are our Epistle written in your hearts which is knowne and read of all men declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by vs and written not with inke but by the spicit of the liuing God not in tables of stone but in fleshlie tables of the heart And a litle after Though the law of nature which men beare written in their hearts be most certaine yet much more hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum a most certaine interpretation in the hearts of the faithfull succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times foreuer according to that of the Prophet this is the testament which I will make to them giuing my lawes in their hearts and in their sense or minde I will write them I must not omitt to putt you further in minde that in the place by you cited he saith b Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae eius authoritas quantum hominum supergreditur rationem tantum fateor diuinâ— legis authoritati succumbit sed tamen quaâ— minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Waâ—d to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit testimonium Ecclesiae semper credenda est si quandoqâ—â— fallere consueta in omnibus est suspecta Ibidem the diuine law were vnto the faithfull * Non licet de ipsa dubitare c. vide in Addit of lesse authoritie if the Church did not preferre it And c Hoc est quod superius dixi quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina sanctioni Ecclesiae ipsa tamen taxabeâ— se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis cuius interpraetationi resistere capitalis est culpa dicit Origenes Ibidâ—â— howmuch soeuer the diuinâ— scripture is higher then the decree of â—he Church ipsa tamen sensum eius â—axabit she notwithstanding shall deâ—ne the sense wherein thou maiest not â—old otherwise and whose interpretaâ—â—on to resist is as Origen speakes a â—apitall offence So he AD Concilium vniuersale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo aniâ—o paterer ab haereticis non admitti sed illud tamen doleo veheâ—enter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur in quibus Thoâ—as Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc fid c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex â—no Addit Baro c. 20. 21. SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now â—â—esent power to determine which â—â—e bookes of scripture And for this â—â—e cited three Chapters of his 2. â—â—oke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. â—ut there I finde it not He doth inâ—ed hold that the Catholick Churh â—â—d no other is able to d Et hoc est secundum dictuÌ„ gloriosum de Ecclesia quod sc ipsa sola est cuius testimoniuÌ„ est tantae authoritatis praeconij vt ipsos libros diuinarum scripturaruÌ„ taxare decoruÌ„ authoribus certificare possit fideles nec fas erit tanto testimonio contraire wald li. 2. doct fid c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Ecclesia declarata per omnes gentes ab Apostolis propagata testimoniuÌ„ certum reddit Ibidem Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse credeÌ„dam sub poena contumaciae Ea dico quae praesens est quae iudicia directa
decreuit à temporibus Apostolorum vsque ad praesens vel vsque in praesens per successiones Patrum id ipsum sapieÌ„tium atque docentium ei inquam credi debet sub poena perfidiae tom 1. doctrina 2. certifie â—hich bookes are scripture and that â—â—e can commend none in this naâ—â—re but such as were written in â—â—e Apostles e Ipsis patriincumbebat qui tunc praesidebaÌ„t Ecclesijs ducere scripturaruÌ„ volumina ad perfectum tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritateÌ„ sacri canonis nisi qui de illis teÌ„poribus Apostolicis agereÌ„t tunc temporis essent quia aliter non facerent de diuinis rebus fidem summam Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà daies but this is â—t to denie the present Church or Councell power to propose againe the same There were notwithstanding the Apostles approbation of diuers parts of the new testameÌ„t which approbation came not at least so manifestlie to the notice of all some who doubted of f Vide Disp pa. 431 or denied them as for example the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epistle and the later oâ— S. Peter yet you your selues doe and Waldensis did receaue them aâ— the hands of the Church by thaâ— part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus saie that hâ— denied a Councell power to propose bookes in the manner wee noâ— speake of but he saies onelie thaâ— he seemes to be of those who denie thâ— power to define which booke is Canonicall to belonge chieflie to a generâ— Councell It is one thing to saie thâ— a Councell can doe it another tâ— saie the power belongs chieflie 〈◊〉 the Councell as you will perceaâ— by the declaration of the next placâ— obiected Waldensis as Canus worâ— import seemed to denie not the foâ—mer but the later neither doth 〈◊〉 saie that he denied it but that 〈◊〉 did seeme to doe so some things thâ— â—hilosophers vse to saie do seeme 〈◊〉 be and are not and some thing â—emes to one otherwise many tiâ—es then to an other Had it been so â—deed I make no question but that â—ou who haue been diligent in your â—inde to seeke in him what might â—e brought against vs would not â—aue omitted to relate the words When you seeke for them next â—ou will finde in him first as I said â—efore that in his exclusiue he speaâ—es of bookes not written in the Aâ—ostles time or before to which purâ—ose he g Waldens li. 2. fid doc c. 20. brings the place of scriâ—ture Dominus narrabit in scripturis â—opulorum principum horum qui â—uerunt in ea with S. Ieroms Comment on it wherein are these words vt exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud â—osteà dicitur abscindatur non habeat â—osteà authoritatem And to the same â—enour he himselfe a litle after let vs â—ote the differences of Scripture because the scripture or writing onlie of â—he Princes that is of the Apostles hath after our lord the crowne of authoritie I meane of canonicall authoritie for the saying of the Saincts which followed them haue their authoritie bâ— not canonicall Secondlie whereas 〈◊〉 might be obiected that the Churcâ— in a generall Councell might wriâ— a booke and put it into the canon 〈◊〉 scripture to be among other bookâ— of holie writt since S. Gregorie thâ— great doth professe to honour theâ— as the Gospels in those words h S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti epist 24. citatur in Decret d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot Ibidem Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros 〈◊〉 quatuor concilia suscipere veneraâ—me fateor Waldensis there answere to this argument and expounds thâ— words of S. Gregorie Thirdlie because it might againe be obiecteâ— out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken that i Gelasius c. Sancta Romana d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagiana epistola de librâ—s recipiendis non recipâ—eÌ„dâ—s vbi scripturaruÌ„ libros in authoritate pleâ—â—râ—a quomodo sint habendi denunciat noÌ„ ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat walden vbi supra Pelagius the Pope seemes to determine what bookes are to be receaued into the canon and what not he answers with a distinction which doth explaine his minde and dotâ— suffice to stopp your mouth wheâ— occasion require Scripturarum libâ— saith he in authoritate plenaria quâ— modo sunt habendi denunciat non 〈◊〉 authoritatem per scipsum instaurâ— That is in briefe he doth not giue but declare their sacred and diuinâ— â—thoritie And the same the Church 〈◊〉 all times might and may doe â—hensoeuer there shall be cause â—hey were by the holy Ghost inâ—red and written by the Apostles â—d Princes of the Church qui fueâ—t in ea and were approued by them 〈◊〉 but it hath beene since necessaâ— to declare some of them to giue â—timonie that they be diuine and â—s testimonie the Church still can â—e Neither is our Sauiour offenâ—d with her testimonie giuen to 〈◊〉 word who was pleased that she â—ould giue testimonie of himâ—fe Of which matter this author â—th much in the former Chapters â—eciallie the eighteenth Fourthlie 〈◊〉 doth esteeme the iudgment of 〈◊〉 Pope and of a perfect Councell â—e infallible as you will heare beâ—e wee leaue him and therefore â—ch more is he to be esteemed to â—eld this honour to the whole wheâ— they be All which being conâ—ered that which you did vrge out 〈◊〉 Canus so appeares that it is but a â—ere videtur without an est vnâ— it HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel aboleuit ipsa sc professio concors sanctorum Patrâ— secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testiâ—nium Christi verbis consuetudini primitiue Baro p. 3â— ex wald to 3. de Sacramentalibus doct 3. 3. THirdlie it is inferred that 〈◊〉 takes infallibilitie froÌ„ Couâ—cells and from the present Churcâ— because he saith that the vnanimâ— profession of the holie Fathers giuâ— testimonie according to the distanceâ— their times to the * Latiùs patet verbum quà m scriptura words of Christ 〈◊〉 the primitiue custome is the oâ—â— Christian engine which hath once â—â—lished all Heresies Wherevnto I aâ—swere first that he speakes withâ— exclusion of the Church presentâ— each heresie for it is well knowâ— that the Church which did aboâ—â— Arianisme and Nestorianisme 〈◊〉 the rest of the heresies before 〈◊〉 times was that Church whâ— knewe of them and that she diâ— by her Pastors and for the most pâ— in Councells though not without 〈◊〉 censent of that part of the Chuâ—â—â— and those her Pastors which liâ—â— in the precedent ages which o◠〈◊〉 or agreeable profession was â—nd partlie by their bookes as in 〈◊〉 acts of the Councells appeares â—his daie and partlie by the tradiâ— of the particular Churches wheâ— they had liued and died Which â—â—nner the Church doth still obserâ— in condemning heresies as they
â—se ioyning her present Authoriâ— to that of the precedent ages â—â—ose minde she doth enquire in â—â—e manner that so by consent of 〈◊〉 whole still errours be condemâ—d Neither is it necessarie to finde â—at which she doth at anie time â—opose vniuersallie professed by all â—fore in plaine termes and expliciâ— or to finde it in all bookes of thoâ— times the Church informer ages â—d not so wee take the same course â—at she then did Secondlie you must â—tend vnto the words cunctas aboleâ—e hath abolished all No one Counâ—ll no one part as that which liued 〈◊〉 the second age or that which liâ—ed in the third or fourth hath aboâ—hed and destroyed them all but â—â—e whole hath done it Thirdlie that â—la is not * If sola be taken as you would haue it what will become of your triall by scripture onlie captiouslie to be stood vpon least you wrong the same Aâ—thor who neuer excluded the Symbolicall Church for whose testimonâ— k so 3. doc 3. tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20 c. he pleades so earnestlie both iâ— the same place and in his seconâ— booke Doct. Fid. in many chapterâ— prouing it it's testimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede yâ—â— the Fathers of whose consent 〈◊〉 speakes in the place by you heeâ— vrged be not the symbolicaâ—â— Church properlie but onlie a parâ— of it And in like manner wheâ— speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she onlie whose testimonie is of so great l To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà ad lit d. authoritie thaâ— she can certifie who are authors oâ— the bookes of scripture that soâ— doth not exclude another authoritie that is within for example thâ— vnanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speakes heere in the words obiected their authoritie were sufficient to certifie the same as you may see by him To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to c. 26. and m Apudomnes Catholicos valet ligat vna sententia concors patruÌ„ maximè autem temporis longaeuâ— patrum successione sirmata ita vt locuÌ„ fidei habeat De quacre â—enda sub poenae perfidiaein symbolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereses compescendas omnes tractatus definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit concors patruÌ„ sententia ab ipsis ApostoloruÌ„ sedibus vsque ad nostratempora fideliter compilara In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelorum id est ecclesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de thesauro suo noua vetera li. 2. c. 25. els where but it excludes authoritie Without Fourthlie he doth noâ— exclude generall Councells by thâ— Christian world approued and hâ— â—t should in Sainct Augustines â—es haue refused to subscribe to â—h authoritie or disputed against â—t which the vniuersall Church â—hat age beleeued and tought he â—t would not haue beleeued what â—s by so great authoritie proposed â—d bene thought madde rather then â—rthie the name of man Fiftlie â—her doth he exclude from infalâ—litie and power to abolish heâ—es the Gospels and other parts scripture and yet these be not â—t instrument or engine which he â—akes of so that you cannot build 〈◊〉 argument on those words to â—e infallibilitie awaie from all but 〈◊〉 Fathers Sixtlie notwithstanâ—g that Councells and the present â—urch are infallible it may be said â—the consent of the Fathers or â—he whole symbolicall Church â—h abolish all heresie because faith â—re readilie giues assent vnto that â—ch is so vniuersallie proposed â—derstandings not so well dispoâ— before doe quicklie stoope in 〈◊〉 case to giue reuerence to the â—h and such as doe not are condemned of all and so confoundâ— that they dare no more openlie pâ—fesse their errour whence it coâ— to passe that none making esteâ— either of the doctrine or of thâ— who stubbornlie doe persist in it degrees it is abolished And this one of those glorious prerogatiâ— which Waldensis so much coÌ„meâ— in the Church Besides the foresâ— readines in the vnderstanding whâ— it is by grace well disposed or 〈◊〉 lesse repugnance to render obedieâ— when it cannot with any shew pâ—tend reason for the refusall there dâ— appeare too more fullie in tâ— proponent the power of vniâ— which is in it selfe a dispositioâ— more plentifull participation of 〈◊〉 spirit and brings with it greaâ— force to conquer opposition Vndâ—standings well disposed yeild pâ—sentlie when the Councell speakâ— when the present Church hath â—ceaued and vniuersallie approâ— the Councell there is ex parte sâ—cti more adhesion and yet mâ— when the consent of all former aâ— is added and vnited and more 〈◊〉 there was in those that had Gradus adhaesionis ex parte subiecti as the â—choolemen speake euidentiam in â—ttestante S. Marke knew the Gosâ—ell which he wrote to be true yet â—hat the faithfull more easilie might â—eleeue it he had it n Vide to 1. doct 3. to 3. li. 2. c. 20. S. Hieron Catol script in Marco approued â—s S. Hierom doth relate by S. Peâ—er S. Paul knew the truth in the â—uestion moued at Antioch about â—ircumcision yet to make the creâ—ibilitie more appeare and more conâ—incing he went with it to the CouÌ„â—ell at Hierusalem where it was o Act. 15. â—efined And the Pastors there knewe too what was the truth yet â—or the greater weight of Authoriâ—ie they added testimonies of Scriâ—ture The scripture many times â—rings testimonies of scripture for confirmation as this Author showeth excellentlie to 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Sauiour himselfe in conâ—irmation of his resurrection cited Moyses and the Prophets When parts â—re vnited Bishops in Councell particular Churches in the vniuersall whole ages in the Symbolicall â—ater with most Auncient all vnder â—one eternall Word becomming one speaker and vttering in the language of all Nations as it were with one mouth in one spirit one and thâ— same thing no man that perceaueâ— it morallie can dissent This proponent hath a commaunding poweâ— ouer a wise mans vnderstanding anâ— it is a great engine to confound errour in which great engine he thaâ— should denie there were many paâ—ticular engines able to confounâ— Heresie wronges diuers particulaâ— in the companie vnlesse you esteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apostles ECclesia vniuersalis habet fidem indefectibilem non qâ—dem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties errâ— percepimus c. Baro p. 366. ex wald to 1. li. 2. c. 19. 4. FOurthlie to the same purposeâ— of remouing infallibilitie froâ— the present Church and Councellâ— he is cited out of another place speaking thus The vniuersall Churâ—â— hath faith which cannot faile not indeed assembled in a generall synâ— which wee haue vnderstoode to haâ— failed sometimes c. In which citaâ—n abruptlie broken of for aduanâ—ge the Authors speach is
Panormitans doctrine of the Pope Councels and vniuersall Church or as the Minister speakes imbracing it Whereas he doth onlie recite Panormitans words Notat Abbas de Sicilia quòd c. and hauing repeated them concludes haec ille So passing immediatlie to another Petrus de Ancharano c. without more adoe Yet since you will needes confound their opinions in this matter and make them both one one and the Deuine rather the matter appertaining to Deuinitie may deliuer it for them both which he doth in this tenour Antoninus m Ad illum pertinet Sanctum canonizare ad quem pertinet quaestiones fidei determinare Quod quidem planuÌ„ est spectare ad Summum PoÌ„tificem S. Antoninus in summa p. 3. tit 22. c. 5. §. 5 lege etiam si placet §. 3. eiusdem tit Apostoli in Euangelijs Epistolis affirmaueruÌ„t in omni doctrina Petrum esse loco Domini Idem c. 6. §. 7. ex Cyrillo Quaeritur vtrum authoritas vniuersalis Ecclesiae in determinatione fidei principaliter resideat in Papa Respondet S. Thomas affirmatiue 2. 2. q. 11. a. 2. ad 3. Postquam aliqua essent authoritate vniuersalis Ecclesiae determinata si quis tali ordinationi pertinaciter repugnaret haereticus censeretur Quae quidem authoritas principaliter residet in Summo Pontifice Dicitur enim 24. q. 1. Quoties fidei ratio ventilatur arbitror omnes fratres nostros coepiscopos non nisi ad Petrum id est ad sui nominis authoritatem referri debere caetera vsque finem vt habentur in S. Thoma loco cit S. Antoninus c. citato §. 19. Sancti Patres in Concilio congregati nihil statuere potuissent nisi authoritate Summi Pontificis interueniente sine qua etiam Concilium congregari non potest §. 20. ex codem S. Thom. li contra impugn relig To him appertaines the canonizing of Saints to whom it belongeth to determine questions touching the faith which manifestlie appertaines vnto the Pope n The question is whether the Authoritie of the vniuersall Church in determination of faith reside principallie in the Pope Saint Thomas they be Antoninus his words which I relate answers affirmatiuelie that after things be determined by the authoritie of the vniuersall Church if any stubbornelie resist or withstand that ordination he should be esteemed an Heretick Which Authoritie is chieflie in the Pope And to this tenet of Saint Thomas Antoninus there subscribeth denying to the the Bishops power to ordaine in this manner or to call a Councell to this purpose without the Popes Authoritie o Concilium non solum comprehendit Papam vt caput quod est principale in Concilijs sed etiam reliquum corpus Ecclesiae vt alios Praelatos de quo Concilio inquit Propheta Non abscondi misericordiam tuam veritatem tuam à Concilio multo Idem tit 23. c. 1. A Councell doth not include onlie the Pope as Head which is chiefe in Councels but the rest of the bodie withall as other Prelates Of which Councell the Prophet saith I haue not hid thy mercie and thy truth from a great Councell p A Concilijs vanitatis malignitatis abscondit Deus misericordiam veritatem sed non abscondit à Concilio multorum sc tendentium ad vnum c. Ibidem §. 1. From Councels of vanitie and malignitie God doth hïde his mercie and his truth but he hideth them not from the Councell of many tending vnto one c. q Ea quae statuuntur in huiusmodi Concilijs generalibus omnes fideles astringunt Idem eod tit cap. 2. in principio things constituted in such generall Councels oblige all the faithfull §. V. 1. Cusanus held the infallibilitie of generall decrees 2. The words obiected out of him against vs are indeed plainely for vs as in the reading of them they are at leingth in the Addition it doth appeare CArdinalis Cusanus in Concilijs generalibus ad hoc vt eorum decreta à nobis acceptentur tanquam certa infallibilia quasdam conditiones requirit c. Baâ—o p 368. 1. CVSANVS This man is brought to teach vs and to teach the whole Church the conditions of a generall Councell as if none were good but such as he liked of and approued he was a yonge man when he wrote his booke and a Finit collectio c. quam sacro huic Basiliensi Concilio cum omni humilitate offero nihil in omnibus veruÌ„ aut defendendum pro vero iudicans seu assereÌ„s nisi quod ipsa sancta Synodus catholicum verum iudicauerit Cusanus in fine CoÌ„cordantiae suae Catholicae earnest for the Councell of Basill though he changed his minde b Vide eiusdem Epist ad Rodericum da Treuino afterwards Neither is the Question heere what be the conditions of a Councell but Whether a generall Councell which hath all conditions that are necessarie and is by the Pope approued be assisted to the definition of the truth and be infallible in which matter wee shall easilie knowe Cusanus his minde In the third chapter which you cite he recites the words of Nicolas the first terming such decrees c Idem li. 2. de Concord c. 3. diuinitus inspiratas sententias sentences inspired by God And after of himselfe he saith d Ibidem si concordanti sententia aliquid fuerit definitum per Spiritum Sanctum censetur inspiratum per Christum in medio congregatorum in eius nomine praesidentem infallibiliter iudicatum If any thing be defined by an agreeing Sentence it is esteemed inspired by the holy Ghost and iudged or determined by Christ praesiding in the middes of them that are assembled in his name This he declares in the Councell of Nice whereof the great e Conc. Chalc. act 1. Councell of Chalcedon saith that the holie Ghost did did there certainlie remaine or sitt amongst the Fathers and ordaine the things which were there ordained And then concludes f Cusan c. 3. vt suprà talia fuerunt omnia orthodoxa Concilia such haue bene all Councells orthodoxall As for the conditions he speakes of none which he thought necessarie be wanting in those generall Councells which wee maintaine The presence of the fiue Patriarkes he doth not require but when they be Catholik nor then neither but for the more fullnes of the Councell Others may be perfect which haue not all but that which hath all is he saith synodus g Ibidem perfectissima most perfect in that kinde One may haue the whole essence of a man all the essentiall parts and yet not be most perfect Our Councells are not made in secret they be assembled and openlie from all parts of the world wheresoeuer the Catholick Church is and such as come may freelie speake and are heard They looke into scriptures and former Councells and Antiquitie to finde the truth and though in the search it might appeare to
it in your hearts not to meditate before what you shall answer for I will giue you a mouth and wisedome which â—ll your aduersaries shall not be able to gainesay nor resist Luc. 21. It shall â—e giuen to you in that same hower what â—ou shall speake for it it not you that â—peak Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis docebit vos omnem veritatem Non enim loquetur a semetipso sed quaecunque audiet loquetur c. de meo accipiet annuÌ„ciabit vobis Ioan. 16. Mea doctrina â—oÌ„â—st mea sed eius qui misit me Ioan. 6 Tâ—es sunt qui testimonium dant in caelo c. hi tres vnuÌ„ sunt 1. Ioan. 5. but the Spirit of your Father that â—eaketh in you Matt. 10. My words â—hat I haue put in thy mouth shall not â—epart out of thy mouth and out of the â—outh of thy seed c. saith our Lord â—om hence foorth and foreuer Esaie â—9 He that heareth you heareth me â—uke 10. Since you seek a proofe of â—hrist speaking in me 2. Cor. 12. The â—pirit of our Lord hath spoken by me â—nd his words by my tongue 2. Kings â— Againe The decrees which wee â—eak of haue the testimonie of the â—olie Ghost and the Scriptures â—ue the testimonie of the Holie â—host Now the Holie Ghost giuing testimonie to both these iâ— not thereby in himself deuided into two He is still the same testis Saint Gregorie our Apostle reuerenced the four first generall CouÌ„cels li. 1. Regest ep 24. vt quatuor Euangelia as he did the four Gospels Saint Augustine whose authoritie is heere obiected when he speakes of the sentence against the Donatists li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. saies Deus plenario Concilio reuelauit The Church Waldensis aboue told you make no doubt but that the Holie Ghost assists her li. 2. Doct. fid c. 27. in her sincere oecumenicall assemblies He is present to them and defines in them So dâ— the Apostles beleeue too Act. 15. attributing their decree to the Holie Ghosâ— whose assistance was * Suggeret vobis omnia Ioh. 14. In vobis erit IbideÌ„ Docebit vos omnem veritatem c. 16. promised It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghosâ— and to vs. This for Councels Noâ— for Scripture Well spake the Holie Ghost by Esaâ— the Prophet vnto our Fathers Aâ— vlt. God who at sundrie times and 〈◊〉 diuers manners spake in times pasâ— vnto the Fathers by the Prophets Heâ— 1. He spake by the mouth of his hoâ— Prophets which haue beene since 〈◊〉 world began Luc. 1. Holie men of God spake as they were moued by the Holie Ghost 2. Pet. 1. In a word There are diuisions of graces but one Spirit and there are diuisions of operations but one Lord and there are diuisions of ministrations but one God who worketh all in all And the manifestation of the Spirit is giuen to euerie one to profit To one c. Vide Disput li. 3 vbi agitur de Spiritus Sancti assistentia And all these things worketh one and the same Spirit diuiding to euerie one according as it will 1. Cor. 12. I forbeare to note that Saint Augustine speakes in the place obiected of a point * Cùm enim petiuisses vt de inuisibili Deo vtrum peroculos corporeos possit videri prolixè aliquid copioseque ad te scriberem negare non potui S. Aug. Epist 112. Quod non sic ostendero vt aut corporis aut animi sensu visum perceptumque teneatur tamen dixero aliquid quod aut verum quidem aut falsum esse necesse sit sed nullo illorum duûm genere videatur restat vt tantum modo credatur vel non credatur Sed si dininarum Scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua quod dixero firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus c. vt suprà Ibidem Dico itaque quod visuri sint Deum in ipso corpore sed vtrum per ipsum sicut per corpus nunc videmus solem lunam stellas mare ac terram quae sunt in ea non parua quaestio est S. Aug. li 22. de Ciuit. Dei c. 29. Ratiocinatio illa Philosophorum qua disputant ita mentis aspectu intelligibilia videri sensu corporis sensibilia id est corporalia vt nec intelligibilia per corpus nec corporalia per scipsa mens valeat intueri si posset nobis esse certissima profectò certum esset per oculos corporis etiam spiritalis nullo modo posse videri Deum Sed istam ratiocinationem vera ratio prophetica irridet authoritas Ibidem Tametsi nec Scripturae nec ConcilioruÌ„ nec PatruÌ„ testimonijs expressè definituÌ„ sit noÌ„ posse Deum oculo corporeo videri id tamé adeo efficaci ratione naturali c. Vasquez 1. p. disp 40 c. 2. not determined by the Church whence ariseth a third Answer And he that can but English his m Inspiciatur codex manuscriptus words will himself espie a fourth and a fift Quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint comparata Baro. p. 336 ex Aug. 3. The third exception is that Councells according to S. Augustine be not equall to the Scripture But I see not how any thing can be drawne hence against their infallibilitie in decrees Wee doe not equall the Apostles or the Prophets to our Sauiour Iesus Christ nor the written word with the eternall and increated word yet the Prophets and the Apostles and the Scripture or written word are infallible Moreouer the Canonicall Scriptures are infallible in all what euer they auouch of what argument or matter soeuer it be which latitude of infallibilitie wee finde not in the acts of Generall Councels nor in any other booke or writing as you were told before and though I doe not your selfe will repeate againe out of S. Augustine quis n S. Aug. li. 2. de bapt contr Donat. c. 3. nesciat Sanctam Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui testamenti certis suis terminis contineri eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi vt de illa omninò dubitari disceptari non possit vtrum verum vel rectum sit quicquid in ea scriptum esse coÌ„stiterit That quicquid doth import an amplitude of infallibilitie which Councells haue not and therefore they are not equall vnto Scripture The Donatists excepted against a Councell because it had in it registred the daie and the Consuls o Etiam hinc gestis ipsis CirteÌ„sibus calumniabantur quia ibi dies CoÌ„sules legebantur exigebaÌ„t à nobis vt aliqua Ecclesiastica Concilia proferremus vbi dies recitarentur consules c. etiam hoc exigebant vt de Scripturis sanctis ostenderemus alicubi dies Consules esse conscriptos quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis
canonicis aliquando fuerint coÌ„parata aut possunt etiam ipsi de Scripturis sanctis proferre CoÌ„cilium vbi Apostoli iudices sederint accusatum aliquem damnauerint vel absoluerint Et tamen respondebimus eis etiam Prophetas libros praenotatis definitis commendasse temporibus quo anno cuius regis c. S. Aug. li. cont Donatist post Collat. c. 15. Requiring of the Catholikes to shewe any where out of Scripture where the daies and consuls were registred and enrolled Wherevnto S. Augustine answers that Councells are not parallelled with Scripture the one to wit the Councell may doe well in registring both daies and Consuls though the other doe not so or they may be added and not by the authoritie of the Councell though nothing be registred in the Scripture but by the direction of the holie Ghost The acts of Councells are not equalized in exactnes and extent of infallibilitie to the books written by Gods Secretaries wee giue the prerogatiue to the Scriptures and so do the words obiected out of S. Augustine which are cited in the margine In the same place whence they were taken he tels how the Catholikes did forbeare to examine why in one Councell the daie was noted and in the other not quia illi Donatistae vanas moras volebant innectere and all heretikes are of the same condition they hinder with impertinent Cauills the processe of the Catholikes argumeÌ„ts and catch at all occasions to trifle out the time For the same cause disputing in another place with an Arian he did forbeare to vrge against him the authoritie of the Councell of Nice against which the heretick tooke exceptions opposing the Ariminian Councell The examen of which two points thereby called into controuersie I meane the lawfulnes of the one and the vnlawfullnes of the other would haue taken vp the time and transferd the dispute into another question which heretikes greedilie desire when they cannot answer but S. Augustine would not permit that scope to his aduersarie and therefore hauing mentioned the two foresaid Councells and in honour of the one which had defined the thing he was disputing of said it p S. Aug li. 3. contra Max. c. 14. was there veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate firmatum established by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie and contrariwise of the other that there were multi paucorum fraude decepti many deceaued by the fraude or circumuention of a fewe whereby hereticall impietie endeuoured to weaken what the Catholike fathers in the power of truth and authoritie had established Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Scripturarum authoritatibus noÌ„ quorumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus c Baro p. 337. ex Aug. hauing I saie mentioned these two Councells he forbeares to vrge his argument out of the authoritie of the Nicene Councell and makes it out of that authoritie which his aduersarie did admit thereby the sooner to conclude being so to dispute onlie about the meaning of the words he was to bring and needing not to argue for his authoritie whose words they were But now for both of vs be content with this course neither doe I the Nicene neither oughtest thou as by way of preiudice produce the Ariminian Councell neither am I held in with the authoritie of this the Ariminian nor thou of that the Nicene thou doest assume to thy selfe the libertie not to obaie it and out * Infrà in fi huius relectionis ad sextum of thy malice art not held in with that great authoritie though thou and all others ought to be since q Hoc est illud homousion quod in Concilio Nicaeno aduersus haereticos Arianos à Catholicis Patribus Veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate firmatum est quod postea in Concilio Ariminensi propter nouitatem in verbis minus quam oportuit intellectum quam tamen fides antiqua peperaâ— multis paucorum fraude deceptis haeretica impietas sub haeretico Imperatore Constantio labefactare tentauit Sed post non longum tempus libertate Catholicae fidei praeualente c. S. Aug. li 3. contra Maxim c. 14. Sed nunc nec ego c. vt supra in marg Ibidem the authoritie of truth it selfe which cannot lie doth there establish the thing which wee dispute of See what S. Athanasius hath testified of the authoritie of that Councell to conuince Heretiks Efficax ad omnem impietatem euertendam c. infrà in Addition ad Athan. PEtit Augustinus à Donatistis vt Ecclesiam suam demonstrent Non in sermonibus rumoribus Afrorum non in Concilijs Episcoporum suorum non in literis quorumlibet disputatorum non in signis prodigijs fallaâ—ibus c. sed in praescripto legis in Prophetarum praedictis in Euangelistarum praedicationibus Baro. p. 337. in eandem sententiam plura p. 338. 4. THe fourth exception out of S. Augustine is that disputing with the Donatists he vrged them to shewe by Scripture how theirs and not the Catholike or vniuersall was the true Church and would not haue the matter tryed by their Councells I answer that though the Church once knowne and her authoritie admitted that will serue to determine controuersies as you heard S. Augustine saie before yet when the Question is of the Church it selfe Whether it be a thing in the intention of our Sauiour confined to one Nation or extended ouer all and with an Aduersarie who doth admit Scripture the way to demonstrate against him vt ex tuis concessionibus c. S. Aug. li. con Cresc c. 33. the way I saie to demonstrate against him is to looke vpon the Prophecies and see the description of it there and to harken withall what our Sauiour in the Gospell hath deliuered of it The Donatists with whom S. Augustine deales admitted the canonicall bookes wherein these two things are and they being once admitted the Question might be defined out of them And of the testimonies of the Lawe and Prophets and Psalmes and of our blessed Sauiour himselfe in this controuersie of the Church S. Augustine said vnto the Donatists r S. Aug. de vnit Eccles cap. 16. haec sunt caâ—sae nostrae documenta haec fundamenta haec firmamenta the cause he speakes of was Whether the Donatists iâ— Africk or the Catholikes in all Nations were the Church whether 〈◊〉 were a thing confined vnto the limits of that contrey or extended ouer all the world according to Gods intention and the testimonies of our Sauiour and of the Law and of the Prophets and Psalmes these testimonies he saith were documents and foundations and establishments of this cause He was not to proue it out of Councells for he that denies the whole doth withall reiect the authoritie of each part or what euer is within the whole
purpose for before he comes to speake of amending plenarie Councells he hath fullie satisfied the three points of their argument taken from S. Cyprians example from his writings or Epistles and from his Coūcell his example should haue moued them rather to adhere vnto the Church his writings were not canonicall Scripture they might haue something in them liable to reprehension Suprà in marg c. in additionibus and his Councell being onlie nationall was to giue place to a generall There staies their argument whollie satisfied The rest was added for a fuller illustration of the matter of Councells wherevnto that occasion had led him They be not all of one nature some kinde of mending or other they be subiect to sometimes though not all vnto the same Wee doe not of necessitie so adhere vnto them all as if nothing in any Saepè priora à posterioribus emendantur But I pray you what amendment had he seene in the Decrees of faith of approued generall Councels shew me the saepè there Name out of him the Coūcells and the decrees so mēded might be better then it is The Ariminian was generall but he would not maintaine it the second Ephesine was generall yet the Councell of Chalcedon did anull it Yea suppose the decrees of faith be all right and the Councell lawfull and approued yet something otherwhiles may be mended as when by some experiment of things that comes to light which before was vnknowne Moreouer in that you saie the Donatists argument is not answered vnles it be graunted that any generall Councell whatsoeuer may be mended in their decree touching faith you seeme to call their heresie againe into dispute for that which S. Augustine so much vrgeth against them and it was the thing indeed which choked that Heresie was the decree of a generall Councell And it is strange you should imagine that he doth heere in the same booke disauow the same decree as if his answer to their weake obiection could not haue place but by cutting the throate of his owne Argument which they durst not looke vpon and that his owne forces of necessitie must be ruined and oppressed with the fall of their cause Looke better on his words and in them you shall finde that he resolued as wee do He saith touching this Controuersie with the Donatists that it was taken into consideration and the (1) Nec nos ipsitale aliquid auderemus asserere nisi vniuersae Ecclesiae concordissima authoritate firmati cui ipse Cyprianus sine dubio cederet si iam illo tēpore quaestionis huius veritas eliquata declarata per pleuarium Concilium solidaretur S Aug li. 2. de Bapt. c 3. truth declared and (2) Postea tamen dum inter multos ex vtraque parte tractatur quaeritur non solum inuenta est veritas sed etiam ad plenarij Concilij authoritatē roburque perducta c. 9. established by the (3) vt suprà num 1. 2. authoritie not by plaine Scripture there was none but by the authoritie of the (4) Si autem Concilium eius Cypriani attēditur huic est vniuersae Ecclesiae posterius Concilium praeponendum cap. 9. vt suprà Totus Catholicus orbis amplexus est li. 1. c. 18. vniuersall Church and this authoritie not in the Laietie or diffused but in (5) suprà plenario totius orbis Concilio c. 7. a Councell wherein the (6) Antequam plenarij Concilij sententia quid in hac resentiendum esset totius Ecclesiae consensio confirmasset li. 1. c. 18. whole Church did in (7) Ibid. a Decree expresse her minde So that although before men perchance might (8) Salua pace disceptare atque fluctuare vt diu conciliorum in suis quibusque regionibus diuersa statuta nutauerint donec li. 1 c. 7. doubt or stagger in the matter it was now to be beleeued (9) Donec plenario totius orbis concilio quod saluberrimè sentiebatur etiam remotis dubitationibus firmaretur Ibidem remotis dubitationibus and (10) nutauerint donec Ibid. Cui ipse sine dubio cederet c vt suprà obedience to be giuen to the decree whereof (11) Ammedera dixit Et hoc ego idem censeo Haereticos baptizandos esse Huic respondetur Sed non hoc censet Ecclesia cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concilio reuelauit quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem sapiebatis sed quia in vobis charitas salua erat in vnitate permanebatis S. Aug li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. vide disput p. 404. God had beene author by all who would not expose themselues to be (12) Scripturarum etiam in hac re à nobis tenetur veritas cum hoc facimus quod vniuersae iam placuit Ecclesiae li 1. cont Crescon c. 33. quisquis falli metuit eandem consulat c. Ibidem vt suprà deceaued and most perniciouslie striue against (13) Quòd si non vis non mihi aut cuiquam homini qui vult ita suscipere sed ipsi Saluatori contra salutem tuam perniciosissimè reluctatis qui te sic susciptendum esse non vis credere quemadmodum suscipit illa Ecclesia quam testimonio suo commendat ille cui fateris nefarium esse non credere De vnit Eccles c 19. our Sauiour himself and confirme or assure themselues to be (14) Audent etiam Donatistae rebaptizare Catholicos vbi se ampliûs Haereticos esse firmarunt cùm Ecclesiae Catholicae vniuersae placuerit nec in ipsis Haereticis baptisma rescindere S. Aug. de Haeres num 69. expende verbum illud ampliùs quod indicat gradum in eodem genere Hereticks This I trow doth import as much as wee teach of a Councells authoritie And the grounds whereby S. Augustine could haue defended himself at that time and in that case be the same whereby wee now defend our selues in other causes of no lesse importance as of the reall presence propitiatorie Sacrifice prayer for the dead and the like the diuine assistance being not tied peculiarlie vnto that Age wherein S. Augustine liued Fourthlie you saie those words cognoscitur quod latebat and that it knowne which was before vnknowne be meant in matter of faith because matters of faith doe come to light after they haue been vnknowne As if this were a peculiar thing in matters of faith and not common to diuers other matters euen those which by experiment may be knowne to come to light after inquisition there are many other verities which may so come to light besides matters of faith and therefore vnlesse you will argue from the genus to the species affirmatiuelie as thus it is aliuing creature therefore it is a man which manner of discourse is absurd you cannot out of those generall words make it good or proue that he meanes matter of faith not if this part were disioyned frō the former with a
vel for there were yet other things which might so come to light besides matters of faith all other verities are not manifested by triall and experiment though some be much lesse can you doe it â—f you consider that the later part and the former be coupled into the same sence by the coniunctiue 〈◊〉 answer secondlie that were matâ—ers of faith expressed in that part 〈◊〉 for of that part onlie which conâ—ernes plenarie Councells I speake â—s it is manifest they be not still â—ou were short of your aime for some kinde of generall Councells such as are vnlawfull or such as are lawfull but not approued though you would neuer be able to proue so much out of this place might neede mending and yet approued and confirmed Councels need none I knowe that some of yours doe sleight the distinction of confirmed and not confirmed Councels as a thing not knowne to S. Augustine and other Auncients but they be mistaken much If you looke into the tome of his Epistles you will see that kk S. Aug. Ep. 90. he with many other Bishops in a Councell wrote vnto Pope Innocentius to confirme their acts and decree made against those errours which Pelagius and Caelestiâ—â— had auouched vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur authoritas that to the decreeâ— of our mediocritie the authoritie of the See Apostolike be added And afterwards error impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiaÌ„ Apostolicae sedis authoritate anathematizanda est The errour and impietie of those men which hath so many abbetters and those disperseâ— in diuers parts or places is to be anathematized also by the authoritie of the See Apostolike Wherevnto the Pope answers and his Epistle is there ll Apud S Aug. Epist 91. also first commending them for requiring as they ought to doe the iudgment of the See Apostolike scientes quid Apostolicae sedi debeatur Secondlie confirming this obligation the Fathers saith he non humana sed diuina decreuere sententia vt quicquid de disiunctis remotisque prouincijs ageretur non prius ducerent finiendum nisi ad huius sedis notitiam perueniret vbi tot a huius authoritate iusta que fuerit pronunciatio firmaretur the fathers haue decreed by a sentence not humane but diuine marke the words that whatsoeuer should be donne in disâ—oyned and remote prouinces they should not esteeme it to be ended vnles it come first to the notice of this See where the proposition or sentence which is iust should be established with the whole authoritie of this Thirdlie he declates quisquis huic assentiens videtur esse sententiae speaking of the the Pelagian errour nimium se Catholicae fidei Dei beneficijs profitetur ingratum who soeuer seemes to consent into this opinion doth professe himselfe an enemie to the Catholike faith and ingratefull to gods benefits And in fine he cuts the faction of from communion separetur ergo c. Neither doth S. Augustine omit to giue notice of this answer for in the 106. Epistle hauing signified the sending of the acts of the foresaid Councell and of another also against the same errours together with letters to the same purpose to Pope Innocentius he saith mm S. Aug. Epist. 106. vide eundem Epist. 104. item serm 2. de verbis Apostoli li. 2. cont duas Epist Pelag. c. 3. ad omnia nobis ille rescripsit eodem modo quo fas erat atque oportebat Apostolicae sedis antistitem He wrote vs an answer to all things in such manner as a Bishop of the see Apostolike lawfullie might before god and ought to doe Adding also els-where that by those letters dubitatio tota sublata est alâ— doubt in that matter was taken away I omit to put you further in minde that the Councell of nn Relat. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem Papam Chalcedon asked of Leo the great as their Head and Father confirmation of their decrees which he also gaue though oo Leo Papa Epist 55. ad Pulch. Aug. not in all they desired and thereby did manifest the fullnes of his authoritie It were easie to bring many examples in this kind were I professedlie to treat of it but keeping my self as I haue donne hetherto to those authors you obiect it sufficeth to satisfie by S. Augustines authoritie the difficulties which you bring out of S. Augustine The necessitie of the Popes approbation you finde elswhere Disput li. 4. c. 4. and it is a thing so manifest by the Scripture Matth. 16. Ioan. 21. that he in his Predecessor S. Peeter is peculiarlie designed as Chiefe of those Pastors on whom the Church is to relie for the knowledg and meaning of Gods word according to the Apostles doctrine Ephes 4. Ephes 2.20 Epist Iudae v. 20 which Pastors are therefore assisted accordinglie to support the faithfull built vppon them that all other interpretation which would exclude it is violent vnto the text and Disput li. 4. c. 1. 2. inasmuch as it labours to remoue the foundation which our Sauiour laide doth indeuour though vainelie for it is more then Hell can do to ruine the whole Church The pretence of plaine Scripture or of manifest reason such as an vnderstanding man considering cannot but assent vnto against the consent of all the Pastors in a Councell is openly insufficient because it doth suppose and without yea against all reason that they the Pastors with all their Exercise in Diuinitie and diligent inquisition looking into and considering the words of Scripture comparing texts together examining the traditions of the Church perusing former Councels with the writings of the Fathers and other monuments of antiquitie and assisted by the Holie Ghost their interiour Master be not as able as their aduersaries to conceaue plaine Scripture Innumerabiles sunt qui se videntes non solùm â—actaÌ„t sed à Christo illuminatos videri volunt sunt autem Haeretici S. Augu. in Ioan. tract 45. and reason so manifest or that conceauing and vnderstanding it they should be all so malicious and our Sauiour so vnmindfull of his promise as to propose vnto the world and oblige it to beleeue as our Sauiours words the contrarie But it is familiar in such Opponents as want them selues that Authoritie which the Sonne of God hath established to keepe vs from Errour to pretend euident Scripture and manifest pp Illi qui cum in vnitate atque communione catholica noÌ„ sint Christiano tamen nomine gloriantur coguntur aduersari credentibus audent imperitos quasi ratione traducere quando maximé cum ista medicina Dominus venerit vt fidem populis imperaret Sed hoc facere coguntur quia iacere se abiectissimè sentiunt si eorum authoritas cum authoritate catholica conferatur Conantur ergo authoritatem stabilissimam fundatissimae Ecclesiae quasi rationis nomine pollicitatione
superare Omnium enim Haereticorum quasi regularis est ista temeritas Sed ille fidei imperator clementissimus per conuentus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium sedesque ipsas Apostolorum arce authoritatis muniuit Ecclesiam per pauciores piè doctos verè spirituales viros copiosissimis apparatibus etiam inuictissimae rationis armauit S. Aug. Epist ad Diosc 56. reason against the Church to the end they may seeme to bring something greater for to oppresse or ouercome her authoritie as S. Augustine well obserued long agoe And by the like stratagem did the pagaÌ„s heeretefore striue to withdraw men whollie from the Creede by shewing the contrarie so cleerelie that no doubt as they pretended could be made of it which was a way they thought to get qq In Catholica me tenet consensio populorum atque gentium c. apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat sola personat veritatis pollicitatio quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in catholica teneor Si autem tantummodo promittitur non exhibetur nemo me mouebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot tantis nexibus Christianae religionis astringit S. Aug. contra Epist Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promittebaâ— scientiam veritatis nunc quod nescio cogis vt credam c. 5. Multò iustiùs cautiùs facio si catholicis quoniam semel credidi ad te non transeo nisi me non credere iusteris sed manifestissimè ac apertissimè scire aliquid feceris Quocirca si mihi rationem redditùrus es dimitte Euangelium Si ad Euangelium me tenes ego ad eos me teneam quibus praecipientibus Euangelio credidi his iubentibus tibi omnino non ctedam Quod si fortè in Euangelio aliquod apertissimum de Manichaei apostolatu inuenire potueris infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mihi vt tibi non credam Qua infirmata iam nec Euangelio credere potero c. Sed absit vt ego Euangelio non credam Ibidem schollers but it proued a meere bragge §. X. 1. Optatus cited his Aduersaries who refused to submitte them selues to the Church to be tryed by the Testament admitted by themselues But the cause it self was in the iudgment of the whole Catholike world to be decided in a Councell and was in fine so determined 2. For finding out the truth in matter of faith recourse is to be made to the fountaine VOs dicitis licet nos non licet inter licet vestrum non licet nostrum nutant remigant animi populorum Nemo vobis credat nemo nobis omnes contentiosi homines sumus Esto Quaerendi sunt iudices si Christiani de vtraque parte dari non possunt quia studijs veritas impeditur Deforis quaerendus est Iudex si paganus non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudaeus inimicus est Christiani baptismatis Ergo in terriâ— nullum de hac re reperiri poâ—erit iudictum de caelo quaerendus est Iudex Sed vt quid palsamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio testamentum Baro p. 328. ex Optato 1. HAuing answered what was obiected out of S. Augugustine he will vndertake for vs to satisfie that you bring from Optatus and where he lookes about for a Iudge to decide the controuersie moued by the Donatists this great Doctour doth answer yea the a S. Aâ—g contra Donatiâ—tas passim Specialiter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. li. 1. coâ—t Cresc c. 31. 32 whole Catholike world did agree that the matter was to be defined in Councell and that not by cleere scripture there was none but by tradition By the testament yes not the written but the nuncupatiue By the holie Ghost c S Aug suprà inter citat ex Ock lit 1. a iudge from heauen but speaking b in a Councell The whole world did iudge that this verie Controuersie whereof Optatus speakes was to be determined so and accordinglie it was so determined and ended Neither doth Optatus denie that which all Catholikes when Saint Augustine wrote graunted and he himselfe yeelded as much of the c Serpit corum sermo vâ—lut cancer dixit hoc de haereticis quorum caeperat esse illis temporibus vitiosa doctrina c. Dictum est hoc de Arrio cuius doctrina nisi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Episcopis dissiparetur pectora multorum sicut cancer intrauerat Optat. Milleu li. 4. Nicene Councell of whose authoritie wee shall presentlie heare more from S. Anathasius who was in it that the Church which hath promise of assistance or the Pastors all assembled in a CouÌ„cell those whom the holie Ghost hath placed to gouerne and our Sauiour hath giuen to keepe vs from being borne about with euerie winde of doctrine haue power to determine a controuersie in Religion But the Donatists excepting against the Catholikes as parties in the cause he betakes himselfe to scripture against which being admitted on both sides that pretended exception had no place children that contend about a Legacie both admit their father testament and if there his words decide the controuersie they rest and so he pleades the Donatists must do when the words of our Sauiours will or testament be showed vnles they proceede as they had denied Church-authoritie so to denie that and him So on he goes to shewe the thing inscripture But what if the words of the testameÌ„t be obscure The matter then requires a Iudge and this Iudge must haue authoritie and assistance if the case be as this was about diuine faith which assistance none hath but by vertue of our Sauiours promise and his promise was made to none but to the Church not to Pagans nor heretikes but to the Church wherefore the Church is to iudge Yet further what if the words of the testament haue it not at all the question was Whether one baptized by an heretike was to be baptized againe when he came into the Church The answer to which Question you doe not finde in scripture the d Qui lotus est c. place which Optatus brings doth not mention such as were baptized by heretikes There is not in all scripture Saint Augustine saies an e Quamuia huius rei certè de scripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum c. S. Aug. li. cont Cresc c. 33 vt suprà Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt sed consuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano ab eorum traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est sicut sunt multa quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ob hoc ab Apostolis praecepta benè creduÌ„tur quanquam scripta non reperian tur li. 5. de bapt c. 23. Cùm in Scripturis non inueniamus aliquos c. De vnitate
thus if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledg And antiquitie thus if wee doe not in any sort goe back from those sences which it is manifest that our holie Auncestors and Fathers haue celebrated and commended and Censent likewise if wee followe the definitions and decrees of all or neere all the priests and masters in Antiquitie And d Quid igitur faciet Christianus Catholicus si se aliqua Ecclesiae particula ab vniuersalis fidei communione praeciderit quid vtique nisi vt pestisero corruptoque meÌ„bro sanitatem vniuersi corporis anteponats quod si nouella aliqua coÌ„tagia non iam portiunculam tantum sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conetur locum hunc corruperuÌ„t Wittaker Vitus haeretici tunc item prouidebit vt antiquitati inhaereat quae prorsus iaÌ„ non potest vlla nouitatis fraude seduci Quid si in ipsa vetustate duorum aut trium hominuÌ„ vel certè ciuitatis vnius aut etiam prouinciae alicuius error deprehendatur Tunc omnino curabit vt paucoruÌ„ temeritati vel inscitiae fi qua sunt vniuersaliter antiquitus vniuersalis Ecclesiae decreta praeponat Quid si tale aliquid emergat vbi nihil huiusmodi reperiatur Tuuc operam dabit vt collatas inter se MaioruÌ„ coÌ„sulat interrogeâ—que sententias eorum duÌ„taxat qui diuersis licet teÌ„poribus locis in vnius tameÌ„ Ecclesiae Catholica communione fide permanentes magistri probabiles extiterunt quicquid noÌ„ vnus aut duo taÌ„tum sed omnes pariter vno eodemque coÌ„senâ—â— apertè frequeÌ„ter perseueranter tenuisse scripsisse docuisse cognouerit id sibi quoque intelligat absque vlla dubitatione credendum Vinc Lyrin c. 4. more he hath to the same purpose He liued in the yeare 440. and before he wrote this booke there had been three generall Councells whose decrees though not made the * Nicenum anno 325. first of them much more then a hundred yeeres before him he â—umbers amongst the records of anâ—iquitie which are to be looked into And in like manner the decrees maâ—e 200. 500. 1000. yeares before vs â—ake place and order in the records â—f antiquitie respectiuelie to our times the distance of precedence â—eing more then was the distance of any Councell precedent respectiuelie vnto him You are further to obserue that â—o the vniuersalitie of a truth he doth not require that it be distinctlie beleeued of all that professe Christian religion some haue professed it who beleeued not the blessed Trinitie others denied the Incarnation the greatest mysteries were not Catholick in this sense neither doth â—he require that a point or veritie which is Catholik be such that it hath been expreslie and distinctlie beleeued of all Catholiks at all times the Catholick Epistles in this sence e Vide Disp pag. 431. An excellent lesson for these times were not all Catholick but his meaning is as I insinuated before that a sence or veritie appertaining to faith which is beleeued by the Symbolicall that is by the vniuersall catholike Church either allwaies or at any time for it can neuer erre in diuine faith or which the Fathers haue vniformelie in their times and ages taught and professed or which hath beene defined by all or neere all the Pastors those which are to teach in a generall councell is to be receaued as a Catholick sense Twice in that little booke herepeates againe this matter of finding out the Catholik sense by antiquitie consenting either in Councell or out of Councell and by vniuersalitie and in both places the definition of generall Councells and their authoritie comes in As in the 38. chapter where giuing direction how to auoid hereticks who like the Deuil vrge Scriptures against the truth in this case saith he Catholikes shall take greate care that they interprete the diuine canon according to the traditions of the vniuersall Church and according to the rules of the Catholike doctrine or decree wherein likewise it is necessarie that they follow the vniuersalitie antiquitie and consent of the Catholick Church And if at any time a part doth rebell against the whole noueltie against antiquitie or the disagreement of one or some fewe erring persons against the consent of all or at least of farre more Catholikes let them preferre the integritie of the whole before the corruption of the part And in the same whole the religion of antiquitie before the prophanesse of noueltie as also in antiquitie it selfe let them preferre before the rashnes of a verie fewe f primuÌ„ omnium generalia si qua sunt vniuersalis coÌ„cilij decreta praeponant tuÌ„c deinde si id minus est sequantur quod proximum est multorum atque magnoruÌ„ consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum Vincent Lirin c 38. first of all if any be the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell then after if that be not let theÌ„ followe that which is next to wit the sentences or opinions of many and great masters consenting amonge themselues In the next chapter he tells what Fathers those must be whose opinions wee take they must be g Idem c. 39. orthodoxe such as liuing piouslie in the Catholike faith and communion and remaining constant haue died in Christ or happilie bene put to death for him and those he saith are so to be beleeued that what soeuer either all or the greater part haue established or confirmed receauing holding or deliuering with one and the same meaning manifestlie oft constantlie as it were in a certaine councell of masters agreeing among themselues the same is to be esteemed certaine and vndoubted And againe in the h Idem c. 40. next Hos in Ecclesia Dei diuinitus per tempora loca dispensatos quisquis in sensu Catholici dogmatis vnum aliquid in Christo sentientes contempserit non hominem contemnit sed Deum He that contemnes these fathers diuinelie distributed according to times and places in the Church of God agreeing in Christ in the sence of a Catholick point of doctrine he contemneth not man but God So greate hee esteemeth this authoritie of the fathers and masters which God hath dispensed not at one but in seuerall times and yet the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell with him haue i c. 38. vt suprà the precedence primum omnium generalia si qua sint vniuersalis Concilij decreta praeponant tunc deinde si id minus est sequantur quod proximum est multorum at que magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum Againe in the 41. chapter he repeates a second time the same matter of finding out the Catholike sence by antiquitie consenting in Councell or out of Councell where he speakes yet more home k Diximus in ipsa Ecclesiae vetustaâ—e duo quaeâ—am vehementer studioseque obseruaÌ„da quibus penitus inhaerere deberent quicunque haeretici esse nolunt PrimuÌ„ si
quâ—d antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum Deinde si qua noua c. c. 41. ExeÌ„pluÌ„ adhibuimus SaÌ„cti CoÌ„ciliâ— quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued quibus wherevnto all those must adhere steedfastlie that will not be hereticks why do you start first of all if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell by all the Priests of the Catholick Church and next if any new question should arise wherein that were not found recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike doctrine of the Church Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall be two other rules wherevnto all that will not be flat heretiks must of necessitie conforme themselues the decrees of oecumenicall Councells and the vniforme consent of Fathers I leaue you now to compare your condition with his opinion What he deliuers in this matter is not his doctrine alone c. 1. That you conceaue him the better he presentlie brings for instance or example the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus held l c. 42. three yeares no more before he wrote this booke wherein Nestorius was condemned the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please It is worth the noting by the way for it is your practise too and indeed of all hereticks that Nestorius as he relates in the end of the chapter renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies affirming m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare semper errasse Ecclesiam that the whole Church euen now in the time of the Councell doth erre and alwaies hath erred In the last chapter of all he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine concludes his booke If neither Apostolicall definitions nor Ecclesiasticall decrees whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie all Heretikes euer and in fine Pelagius Caelestius Nestorius haue been deseruedlie condemned be to be violated it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers and so insist that they die in it and that they detest abhorre speake against persecute the prophane nouelties of prophane men §. XIII Exceptions against a text or two refuted THE last Opposition which you make is against two of the places of Scripture which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie These also least you conceaue there is difficultie I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large and then make an end The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance made vnto the Church The Spirit of Truth when he comes shall teach you all truth Ioan. 14. 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise as it was vnderstood by the Apostles who relying on it met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. Against the former place you saie first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie This is false for it is foreuer I will aske my father and he will giue you another comforter that he remaine with you for euer the Spirit of truth And apud vos manebit he shall remaine with you Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie which cannot subsist without his Spirit and for confirmation and illustration of her faith not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone but euer since after they be gonne she needs assistance of the Spirit Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort non relinquam vos orphanos Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans O father establish confirme sanctifie them in the truth I aske not for them onlie Ioh. 17. the Apostles but for the Church for those which by their word shall beleeue in me That by thy prouidence for my sake in our Spirit all be as it were one and agree to their proportion as wee doe who doe iudge and approue still the same But tell me hath the Spirit left the Church or is he still in it if he hath left it how hath she supernaturall operations how doth she beleeue the diuine word how doth she subsist as the Gospell saith she shall notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it it is then true that the promise holds still euen that which was made vnto the Church in the Apostles time and began first to be fulfilled in them The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two one of God the Father to send his sonne to redeeme the world the other of God the Sonne to send the holie Ghost his spirit to teach and instruct his Church if you doe not beleeue the later is performed you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too and not trust God at all in his promise nor in his couenant neither though so farre you trust one another Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. I will giue my lawe in their bowels and in their hart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people My Spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth Isa 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from this present and foreuer See the Disp li. 3. Secondlie you saie that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points or doctrine by our Sauiour reuealed and deliuered vnto the Church but of some points onlie â—hose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed and not necessarilie of all those neither Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church For if the holie Ghost teach no more by the promise of our Sauiour then those fewe points it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities though they be necessarie to be knowne
And the iudge of controuersies the holie Ghost being put â—o silence errour in all other matters of that kinde is remedilesse For example if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptisme this errour were pernicions to the Church and â—hould it preuaile in all as it might â—f the holie Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed both infants and others inmumerable would be ruined thereby for vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost Ioh. 3. he shall â—ot enter into the kingdome of heauen The Eucharist is not expressed in the Apostles Creed yet you saie that it is necessarie to receaue it and by the diuine commaund in both kinds The commandements and the interpretation which our Sauiour gaue of them be not expressed there yet the Church hath them and the whole Christian lawe written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God Our obligations towards superiours of all sorts in conscience and by diuine precept to be performed and the rules of Christian conuersation be not expressed there though the Church may not be ignoraÌ„t of them Pastors and Bishops are necessarie and by God ordained for her direction and the Prophecies be necessarie for confirmation of her faith and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other though they be not expreslie in the Apostles Creed I speake of that Creed because you name it as also because the certaintie of other Creeds set out in Councells or of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed I acknowledge it as proceeding from the assistance of the holie Ghost to the Church in more then is expressed in the Apostles Creed Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene or that of S. Aâ—hanasius if you beleeue it too then â—ecall your answer for whilst it stands there is no remedie for errours in these matters and many more nor way of assuraÌ„ce for many things which it is necessarie for the Church to knowe Moreouer it is certaine by the Gospells that our blessed Sauiour â—aught many things to the Church â—oth before his passion and after his â—esurrection which are not expresâ—ed in the Apostles Creede whereunâ—o you think only assistance is exâ—ended Reade the Gospell of S. â—ohn all ouer or of S. Luke or S. Maâ—hewe and you shall finde this to be â—ue And these things also the Spiâ—it according to promise doth suggest I haue yet many things to saie vnâ—o you which you cannot beare nowe â—ut when he the Spirit of truth comes â—e shall teach you all truth for he shall â—ot speake of himselfe Ioh. 16. but what things soeuer be shall heare he shall speake This before his passion and after it for fortie daies he appeared to them speaking of the kingdome of God Act. Apost c. 1. Now that all this whether written or not written otherwise then by the holie Ghost in the minde and heart of the Church is included within the obiect of the promised assistance I proue by no lesse authoritie then of our Sauiour Iesus Christ vpon whose promises all that acknowledge him to be true God Ioh. 14. should relie beleeuing them and him as most faithfull He the Spirit of truth shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all whatsoeuer I shall haue said vnto you It is also necessarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture and the seÌ„â—â— which without assistaÌ„ce of the holie Ghost caÌ„not be done as I could easilie shew were I to treate of that matter Vide Disputat li. 3. c. 4. 5. but forbearing that discourse 〈◊〉 demaund Whether it be necessarie for the Church to knowe that oâ—â— Sauiour did ordaine Baptisme and Eucharist and Order if perchancâ— you thinke the institution of Bishop to be * Acts 20. deuine and how a man may knowe the meaning of those passages of Scripture which doe mention these things or that the texts indeed be Scripture if the holie Ghost doth by promise teach the Church no more then what is expressed in the Apostles Creed I demaund also how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed or that he doth teach any at all if by the Scripture theÌ„ he teacheth more then is expressed in the Apostles Creede for the Scripture is not expreslie there And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed how be you certaine that the Gospells be diuine Scripture who taught you that The same Question I will aske and you must answer mark well of euerie Chaâ—ter and of the meaning of euerie verse which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine or to make for any peece of your Religion Thirdlie some perchance will obiect that though he teach the Church all the dogmaticall points or heauenlie doctrine which our Sauiour taught and commended yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors but onlie of the symbolicall or vniuersall Church which may retaine it though the Bishops and Pastors all should erre You knowe out of the begining of this Relection where this euasion is insinuated and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring you seeme to make an offer in the end to repose heere But none that beleeues the Scripture can rest in it First because our Sauiours words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors who were to teach and needed assistance in it Ioann 14. he shall teach you And so they did vnderstand it as appeares by their decree whereof I am to speake afterwards Secondlie the symbolicall or vniuersall Church doth include Pastors and people and the people are to learne of the Pastors whose office is to teach how shall they beleeue vnles they heare and how shall they heare with out a preacher Rom. 10. Teach all Nations was said Matth. vlt. not to the people but to the Pastors Ioann vlt. and S. Peter and his successors in him were bid to feede the flock of Christ wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people and among them the predestinate depend for instruction should be assisted in their teaching especiallie then when they speake all the same Thirdlie our Sauiour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church Ephes 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine in the circumuention of errour and if this meanes which is established till the worlds end be fit for this purpose as no Christian can thinke otherwise of our Sauiours prouidence whom he beleeues to be God it is assisted so that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obligation to beleeue it Fourthlie if euer wee are to beleeue that Christ speaketh and resolueth doubts by the Pastors of the Church according to that He which heareth you heareth me Luc. 10.