meaning of Scripture and make themselves blind that they may be led by those that pretend to Infallibility and a supreme Authority in things of Faith As for the Decisions of your Popes and Councils it hath been observed by learned men of ours that they are also subject to mis-interpretation and that they have not been able so much as to compose any one of those Differences that have been and are still amongst you And indeed why should not God speak as plain as the Pope in what is absolutely necessary to be known Is it because he is not able or because he is not willing we should know the truth But Friend whilst you tax the Scripture with obscurity and make the people think 't is a dangerous Book see whether you do â—ot give the lie to God himself who saith Ps 19 7 8. The â—aw of the Lord is perfect converting the soul the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple according to Rome it should have been making the simple to err The Statutes of the Lord are right rejoycing the heart the commandment of the Lord is pure enlightning the eye not blinding or darkning the eye Psal 119 105. In another place Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path Could any thing be more express against the charge of obscurity 2 Cor. 4.3 4. And so S. Paul saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that perish in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them It seems the Gospel hath a light that shines unto men and the devil endeavours to blind them that they may not see it and whether the Pope be not an useful instrument to that effect let them judge that are not yet quite blind Sure if there was so great a danger in reading the Scriptures God would not have commanded his people so absolutely to study his Law Christ would not have preached to the multitudes for his words might be misinterpreted as well spoken as written and the Apostles should not have directed their Epistles to all the people of Corinth Ephesus c. We should rather have been forbidden searching the Scriptures and sent to his Holiness to know what we must believe and do P. Sir you are tedious in your Reasons and Proofs and whereas I cite only one of our approved Doctors at a time and that in few words you bring me I don't know how many places of Scripture I had rather you would tell me what Luther or the Church of Geneva have resolv'd in these Controversies G. 'T would be to no purpose for we regard not their opinions nor those of any private men but as far as they agree with the truth Our Church is founded upon that Catholic and unchangeable truth which God hath revealed in the Sacred Books and which hath been and is still entertain'd by all those that own the Fundamentals of Christianity Therefore as I have told you 't will be the shortest way for me to back those Doctrins of our Church which oppose any of yours by the authority of Gods Revelations his most Holy Word which is a sufficient foundation for us to ground our faith upon P. As far as I can see you are run a great way off from us for we as many as own the Pope to be the Head and Monarch of the Church never mind what the Scripture saith we follow blind-fold the Judgment of our Church as a most infallible guide Bellar. de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. â— We believe that neither the Pope nor the particular Church of Rome can err in things of Faith Non solum Pontifex Romanus non potest errare in fide sed neque Romana particularis Ecclesia No Sir take it from Bellarmin Bellar. de Eccles l. â— c. 14. It is absolutely impossible that the Church should err in any thing whether it be necessary or not Nostra est sententia Ecclesiam absolute non posse errare nec in rebus absolute necessariis nec in aliis G. And you Sir take it from experience that the Church of Rome could and hath greatly erred in many things if it be an error to make huge additions to the antient Creeds and to go directly against the Word of God And though it be impossible that ever the Universal Church should forsake and deny the saving truths of Christian Religion because of the Promise of Christ Matth. 16.18 Yet any one particular Church or Society of Christians though never so great may err and that in Fundamentals as we know of some Pseudo-Councils that have broach'd or confirm'd damnable Heresies And accordingly the Scripture saith Rom. 3.4 Let God be true and every man a liar the Bishop of Rome himself is not excepted And doubtless if the Church of Rome was infallible and the only guide that can lead us to heaven God who hath revealed to us the way to happiness would not have omitted so essential a thing But instead of a command wholly to rely on the judgment of the Pope speaking ex Cathedra we are commanded to prove all things 1 Thess 5 2â— 1 Joh. 4.1 and to hold fast that which is good and again to try the spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are come out into the world Now how shall we try them but by the Word of God and if we find you do not follow it why should we any longer follow you Find me as many Texts out of Gods Word to prove that your great Bishop is infallible and that we are all bound to believe every thing he saith as I have produc'd already for the Divine Authority of Scripture and its sufficiency to bring us unto Salvation and then we 'll weigh them together and my faith shall follow the heavier Scale But when we prove and demonstrate that you err and go directly against Scripture for you to come and say that it is impossible because you are infallible and free from all error is to my thinking a very odd and unsatisfactory answer P. Well if you talk of Scripture till to morrow I am sure ours is the Antient Catholic Church without the which there is no salvation But your Religion is a new upstart you cannot shew me where it was and the Professors of it two hundred years ago G. As for the Professors where they were and that there were many even in the highth of Popery is a long Historical labour but ready done to my hand by several learned men the Author of Catalogus testium Verit. Abbot Vsher Fox White c. They were in the Eastern and Greec Churches much larger than that of Rome they were amongst you some declar'd and marty'd for it some for peace sake living in the Communion of your Church and some conceled for fear of your cruelty sighing in secret for
Liberty and Reformation But you may satisfie your self fully in their Books As for our Religion It was where it had been above a thousand years in the Holy Scripture And suppose what is utterly false that soon after its being written all Christian Churches had been so corrupted as to own fifteen hundred years together those Errors which now are amongst you yet still the Scripture had been the same as much to be obeyed and followed as if it had always been so 2 King 22. When Josiah had found the Book of the Law he did not fling it by because it had been hid and neglected during the reign of Manasseh and Amon his Fathers but he caused it to be read before all the people Ibid. 23. that they might observe what was conteined in it So now we have the Holy Scriptures read and preached to us we must not reject them to follow the Customs of some of our Fore-Fathers in whose time they were hid and disregarded for they are as much the Rule of Faith as if they had never been disown'd But I say farther that our Religion was in those Churches in the East and South which never own'd Popery and even amongst you our Religion was professed you believed all along those three Creeds which you and we do still retein which contein the Articles of our Faith but not the new additions which are particular to Rome The Popes universal Supremacy and his Infallibility Transubstantiation Worshipping of Images Purgatory Indulgences c. These are neither in Scripture nor in the first Councils nor in the Writings of the Antient Fathers not so much as in your Creeds an evident mark of their novelty but in the late Councils and Constitutions of the Popes We confess indeed that there is an universal Church out of which there is no salvation according to that known saying of S. Cyprian Deum non potest c. He can be none of Gods children who is not a son of the Church But that Church is the Christian not the Roman Church and to know which is the Christian Church or which is the purest of Christian Churches for they are all Christian in some measure that own Christ we must not consult humane Histories for they cannot inform us of that and if they could we must not build our faith upon mens report De Sac a. l. 2. c. 21. Bellarmin saith of humane Histories Faciunt tantum humanam fidem cui falsam subesse potest that they only beget a human saith which may be erroneous Wherefore in the Controversie betwixt us which is the purest Church we must not search old Records and Chronicles to see which was the oldest the most visible or the most large and flourishing Church that is not the Question and if it were still human Histories cannot be the ground of a Christian Faith but we must examin which agrees best with Holy Scripture which we all acknowledge to be the Word of God for no doubt the true Church wherein Salvation may be had is that which holds that Doctrin which God himself hath reveled to Mankind whatever her condition may have been in times past P. There may be something considerable in what you say but you Hereties have strange cunnings and subtilties to justifie your Opinions and yet still for all you have said you are no better than Rebels against your spiritual Sovereign you are Schismatics undutiful Children that have forsaken your Mother the Church The true and only Church wherein Salvation is to be obtein'd guided and governed by the Vicar of Christ upon earth our holy Father the Pope Vna est tantum Ecclesia sub regimine unius Christi in terris Vicarii Romani Pontific is Bellar. de Eccl. l 3. c. 2. But pray do not make such a tedious Discourse as you have just now G. Good Sir sometimes short Questions cannot be answered in few words I could propose one to you much like that as you put to me which I believe would take a great deal of your time to answer that is Where your particular Religion your sacrificing of the real and corporal body and bloud of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead your Worshipping Images and Saints and making them your Intercessors your Purgatory Indulgences c. Where was all that in the time of Christ and his Apostles Whereabout can it be found in Scripture or in the antient Creeds or in the four first General Councils or in the three or four first Centuries But I will not put you to so long and impossible a Task As for our forsaking the Communion of the Church of Rome we were absolutely bound and in a manner forc'd to do it because of the many errors which had crept and been brought into it by the Ignorance Pride Avarice and Ambition of the late Popes of Rome and their Partizans and which were confirm'd by your Church and defended with that violence that it was death to any man to speak in the least against them Now you know 't is a Rule agreed on of all sides that he is not guilty of Schism that separates but he that gives a just cause of Separation wherfore I retort the charge upon you of being Schismatics except you can prove by the Word of God those Doctrins of yours we have rejected to be Divine and Orthodox for we have left your Church upon this account that you had perverted the truth of God and added many false opinions to it which ye impos'd upon the people as if they had been Articles of Faith And we find it in Scripture Ro. 16.17 Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrin which ye have learned and avoid them 't is not said except it be the Church of Rome And in another place Gal. 1.8 Though we or an angel from heaven preach unto you beyond or over and above in the Grecc 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the vulgar praeterquam quod what we have preached let him be accursed the Pope himself you see is not excepted Again we have left the Communion of your Church because it was Schismatic itself in that it had forsaken the Doctrin taught and believed in the Primitive Church We have come out of Rome to return into the more antient and universal Church We have left the Pope to follow Christ and his Apostles and we have forsaken you no farther than you had forsaken the truth The antient Creeds the first Councils many good and Fundamental Doctrins we hold together in these we hold Communion with you We reject your Communion only in those new Doctrins which ye have superadded to the antient and divine Faith of Christians And so likewise we rebel not against the Pope only we set God above him I 'll still acknowledge him to be a Bishop and the Patriarch of the West and perhaps I had been civil enough never to have disputed his Infallibility and spiritual Sovereignty
Papist Incognito made known By way of DIALOGUE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a Presbyterian Divine The First Part. P. SIr your humble servant I come to wait you upon a double account to give you thanks for the Civilities I have heretofore received from you and to spend in the best Company I can that short time I am allow'd to stay in England G. I protest Master it grieves me that contrary to our inclination we should be forc'd to be thus severe against you for to secure the peace of the kingdom And were it not that your Religion stands in opposition to the good and peaceable intentions which I believe some of you may have I do protest that I my self would heartily intercede for your staying and living quietly with us However you are very welcome P. Sir I know you to be of a very sweet nature by a long experience and I will requite your kindness by praying heartily for your conversion to the true Catholic Faith G. Master I thank you for your good will but I believe if your Prayers be heard I shall never be of your Religion for if it hath the truth yet therewith ye have mixt so many false Doctrins particular to your own Church that it can never be justly call'd The true Catholic Faith P. Sir you speak as you have been taught but did you well understand those things as you call false Doctrines I am sure you would be of another mind G. Well we are entred ab abrupto upon a Subject that will help us to pass away the time therefore I desire you my good Friend for our old acquaintance sake to let me know positively the truth of what your Church believes in the chiefest things we differ from you as it is taught and recorded by your most approved Doctors P. I will with all my heart as far as I am able and that you may not think I disguise any thing or speak my private Opinions I will bring the very words of the Council of Trent or Bellarmin or Stapleton as the Authentic Proofs of the truth of what I shall say ask you what you have a mind to know G. First let me enquire of what you believe concerning the Holy Scripture for we make it the Ground and the Rule of our Faith being persuaded that it conteins all things necessary to Salvation P. We are much of another mind for we hold that the Scripture doth not expresly contein all that is necessary to be believed or to be done i.e. Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 4. c. 3. that its Doctrine is defective in what concerns Faith and Morality Nos asserimus in Scripturis non contineri expresse totam doctrinam necessariam sive de fide sive de moribus G. That 's very plain and I believe more than you dare say to those you endeavour to make your Proselytes P. Nay Sir before we proceed I must tell you that I expect you would render me like for like and cite the words of Cranmer or Calvin or whatever Authors they are you have your Doctrine from that it may be seen which of us hath the better Authorities for our several Opinions pray who taught you that all things necessary to salvation are contein'd in Scripture G. Our Blessed Saviour who approved the Jews opinion of believing that by the Scriptures they might have eternal life and therefore commanded them to search them John 5.39 Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testifie of me And more expresly S. Paul who affirms that they are able to make us wise unto salvation 2 Tim. 3.15 c. being inspir'd by God These two Texts are of more weight with me than the contrary affirmations of twenty Cardinals And as for the Authors of our Religion we own none besides Christ and his blessed Apostles Those Doctrines of our Church which are positive are plainly contein'd in Scripture and the best Records of the Primitive Church and are own'd and believ'd by you also and the negatives which are against your Innovations can neither be disprov'd by Scripture nor the Antient Fathers but are generally included in the positive All this is to be seen in the learned labours of many of the Reformed Doctors I will not make our Discourse so tedious as to rehearse what they have said upon that subject therefore I desire you to be contented with a few plain Scriptures which I will bring to authorize our denying those Articles of your Roman Faith we have rejected P. Well do so if you will but let me tell you that Scripture is not to be the judge of Differences in Religion 'T is the Pope and Council must decide all Controversies and declare the true sense of Scripture Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 3. Judicem dicimus veri sensus Scripturae omnium Controversiarum esse Ecclesiam id est Pontificem cum Concilio G. I don't believe it for I find that God sends his People to the Law and to the Testimony to examin the Doctrine of the Prophets Isa 8.20 and I hope the Gospel may as well have the Privilege that by it we should examin the Doctrin of the Pope Christ tells the Saducees that they creed because they knew not the Scriptures Mar. 12.24 Luke 16.29 It is said in the Parable of Dives They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them And it is recorded to the praise of the people of Berea that they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so Acts 17.11 In all these the Scripture is made Judge of Controversies and by it the Doctrin of S. Paul himself is tried and examined P. But for all that the Scripture is very obscure and harder to be understood than the Notions of Metaphysic Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 1. Certe si scientia Metaphysicorum difficilior quomodo non obscurissima erit Scriptura quae de rebus longe altioribus agit And if the People should read it it would do them more harm than good for 't would be an occasion of their falling into error about those Doctrines that concern Faith and a good Life Et ibid. l. 2. c. â—5 Populum non solum non eaperet fructum ex Scripturis sed etiam caperet detrimentum acciperet enim facillime occasionem errandi tum in doctrina fidei tum in praeceptis vitae morum Therefore all men ought to follow the Decisions of Popes and Councils that they may be guided in the truth G. Nay I would have the people follow the judgment of the Church they live in but I would have them to make use of their Rationality to chuse the Communion of the purest Church according to the Word of God and if they have learning enough according to the four first General Councils and the Primitive Christians and not deny their Reason and the plain
though I find nothing for it in Scripture had I not found that he hath really erred and that very grosly whence I infer that therefore his Infallibility and supreme Authority are Chimeras mere devices of his own brain the which I am in no wise bound to obey being they pervert and oppose the plainest truths in the New Testament As that Christ is now in heaven by his bodily presence and not on the Altars as it is in the Creed he is ascended into heaven from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead and in Acts 3.20 Whom the heavens must contain until the restitution of all things That we are forgiven and cleansed by the death and merits of Christ not by Purgatory and Indulgences 1 Joh. 1.7 And the bloud of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins ibid. 2.2 He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world That the offering of himself on the Cross hath fully satisfied for sin and that his sacrifice needs not be renewed daily and be offered corporally in the Mass for the sins of the living and the dead as you teach and do Heb. 9.26 But now once in the end of the world he hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself c. In those things that are evidently against the Word of God we are resolv'd to follow Scripture rather than the head of your Church and we 'll rather for ever break with him than to suffer him to put out our eyes that so he may guide us at his own pleasure P. Yea those be the fruits of translating the Bible and performing Divine Service in the vulgar Tongues every one of you can find fault with the Doctrins and Constitutions of the Church and talk Scripture from morning to night we see among your selves what Disorders it hath caused If your Clergy had been wise enough to have still retein'd the Latin Tongue in all their Ministrations the people could have dislik'd and censur'd nothing 't was sufficient for them to have light enough to follow their guides more submission and obedience with less knowledge had done better Bellar de Verbo Dei l. 2. c. 15. That hath been the wisdom of our Church to keep the Scripture and the publick prayers of our Church out of the peoples reach by forbidding them to be read in any vulgar tongue Catholica Ecclesia prohibet ne in publico communi usu Ecclesiae Scripturae legantur vel canentur vulgaribus linguis ut in Concilio Tridentino SS 22. Can. 9. Sed contenti sumus tribus illis linguis quas Dominus titulo crucis suae honoravit G. Because some men stumble and fall at noon-day must the Sun be charged with a fault that proceeds from their heedlesness and would it become one to say that therefore 't is safer to grope in the dark because then people tread more warily Or must therefore mens eyes be put out because then they shall be willing to be led and to follow their guides S. Peter saith that the unstable and unlearned in his time wrested some difficult things written by Saint Paul and other Scriptures to their own destruction Yet he doth not say therefore let not the common people read them but rather dedicates his Epistle to all those that were partakers of the Christian Faith and exhorts them to grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ibid. v. 18. S. Paul reckons Idolatry Heresies and Schisms among the fruits of the flesh Gal. 5.20 but doth not any where impute them to the reading of Holy Scripture and it hath been observ'd that the perversness of men of great Learning hath been the cause of Heresies and not the mistakes or ignorance of ordinary people in reading the Bible However we have a whole Chapter in the New Testament against the speaking in an unknown tongue as you do in all your Churches 1 Cor. 15.11 If I know not the meaning of the voice I shall be unto him that speaketh a Barbarian and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian unto me that 's the relation betwixt your Priests and your people they are Barbarians one to another the whole Chapter is to that purpose and would be too long to be transcrib'd But if Scripture had been silent in this one would think that common Reason would have kept men from a practice so absurd and ridiculous that a man should present a petition and know not what he asks and be taught his duty by words he doth not understand is a strange and incredible thing which Reason alone confutes most strongly And yet for all this I do hugely commend the wisdom of your Church in this particular for that hath maintain'd the Popes Religion and Credit for some hundreds of years the understanding of Mass and Scripture hath already prov'd fatal to his authority and should once the rest of his flock be able to compare both together 't is to be fear'd he that hath rewarded many of his friends with the gift of titular Bishopricks might come to be himself a titular Bishop P. I see you value an universal Council as little as you do Bellarmin alone and have as many things to object against it I wonder how you dare in any wise oppose the authority of such an Assembly and think your Judgment is to be prefer'd to theirs G. And I wonder how you can call the Council of Trent universal when there was none in it of the Clergy of the Reformed Churches which are almost as large and populous here in the West as those of the Roman Religion But especially because none of the Christians of Aethiopia nor of those that are subject to the Patriarchs of Antioch and Constantinople whose Jurisdiction is of a far larger extent than that of the Bishop of Rome were present at it Pray did you never hear that a great Company of Arrians met once together and confirmed their Errors and cursed all those that would not embrace it and call'd themselves an Universal Council just so did that Company of Papists that met at Trent But had they been twice as many more you should not wonder how I dare oppose them but rather consider whether what I say be rational or no and whether what you call my private judgment be not rather the express words of Scripture But pray proceed and tell me what your Church thinks of Images and Saints for we are told that you worship them P. Yes Bellar. de San. beat l. 1. c. 19. and that very devoutly and to our great advantage by making religious Invocations to them whether they be men or angels Sancti sive angeli sive homines pie atque utiliter invocantur G. Now I wonder too how you dare do that for I find that when Cornelius would have worshipped S. Peter the holy Apostle took him up saying Acts 10.26 Rev. 19.10 that he himself was a
man also And that when S. John fell at the Angels feet to worship him the Angel hindred him saying See thou do it not I am thy fellow-servant worship God Who told you 't is more lawful now Or that they are not still of the same mind for belike the Worship of Latreia was not offer'd them and how can you call on the Saints for help being you have not yet put them in your Creed for S. Rom. 10.14 Paul saith How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed And more than so he gives us warning against the plausibility of the Doctrin of worshipping Angels Col. 2.18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of Angels intruding into those things which he hath not seen vainly puft up by his fleshly mind I take the practice of our Church in worshipping God alone to be much safer for we are bid by our Lord Jesus Christ so to do Mat. 4.10 Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve It is said in the Acts Acts 2.21 Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved Could you produce as much for the Worshipping of Saints we would do it as devoutly as you But rather to the contrary we find that when the Apostles desired Christ to teach them to pray not only to pray God but in general to pray he told them Luc. 11.1 When ye pray say Our Father c. there was not a syllable for the Saints And S. Paul when he had said That Christ is our High-Priest in heaven Heb. 4.16 infers let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace that we may obtein mercy He doth not say Let us go to the Saints that they may obtein mercy for us Nothing is to be found in Scripture but what discountenanceth the Practice of your Church in Praying to Saints Pray what reasons have you for it besides the command of the Pope P. There may be many but I can tell you of two very strong ones First Because they know our necessities and the very thoughts of our hearts and so can hear our prayers at all times Bellarmin is express in it Bellar. de San. beat l. 1. c. 20. Non verum est quod assumitur Sanctos ignorare quod ab illis petimus nam etsi dubitatio esse possit quemadmodum cognoseant quae solo cordis affectu interdum proferuntur tamen certum est eos cognoscere And secondly Ibid. Because they are our Mediators and intercede with God for us Neque est cur timeamus nomen mediatoris transferre ad Sanctos sicut ad eos transferimus nomen advocati intercessoris And accordingly it was decreed by the Council of Trent Mandat sancta Synodus omnibus Episcopis c. Con Trid. S. 25. Decret de Inv. Sanct. omnes fideles instruant de Sanctorum intercessione invocatione reliquiarum honore legitimo imaginum usu Doceant eos bonum atque utile esse eos invocare ad eorum orationes opem auxiliumque confugere Imagines Christi Sanctorum in templis habendas eisque debitum honorem venerationem impertiendam Quod per imagines quas osculamur coram quibus caput aperimus Christum Sanctos adoremus veneremur The people must be taught by the Clergy to pray to Saints to flee to them for succour and help and also for their intercession to honour their shrines and reliques to have their images in Churches and give them their due honour and worship by kissing of them and by kneeling and being bare to them G. Yes I know you do so and burn Candles and go on Pilgrimages to them and offer gifts to them and a great deal more than I can think of But the more shame for you for were your reasons true yet they could not justifie such doings but rather what we all grant and practise that the Saints should be mentioned with honour that the memory of them should be pretious to us and that we would imitate their virtues and thank God for all the blessings we receive from them And yet 't is very improbable that they should know the thoughts of all men at once for 't is a thing that belongs to God only Eccl. 9.6 7. and seems to contradict these Scriptures That the dead know not any thing of what is done under the Sun That God only knows the heart of all the children of men 1 Kings 8.39 Rev. 2.23 And that it is he that searcheth the reins and the hearts And as for your second reason we deny not but that the Saints glorified may pray for the Militant Church only we say that to make them our Mediators and Intercessors and to pray by their merits is expresly against these Scriptures 1 Tim 2.5 1 John 2.1 2. Joh. 14.6 There is one Mediator between God and men the man Jesus Christ I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the father but by me not by the Saints If ye ask any thing in my name that will I do Ibid. 13 14. If ye ask any thing in my name I will do it Eph. 2.18 not if ye ask in the name of the Saints Through him we have access by one spirit unto the father and lastly to conclude and shew that the Practice of our Church is well grounded and safe It is said Heb. 7.25 He Christ is able to save to the utmost those that come unto God by him seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them As for your representing God in bodily shapes and worshipping the Images of Saints 't is well the Council of Trent is so express for it Deut. 5.8 for I am sure the Holy Scripture doth not in the least authorize but rather condemn it Thou shalt not make to thy self any graven image nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above c. Ib. 4.15 and in another place Take ye good heed unto your selves for you saw no manner of similitude when the Lord spake to you in Horeb lest ye corrupt your selves and make you a graven image the similitude of any figure c. And that Images should not be worshipped in any wise Ex. 20.5 what can be more express than the second Commandment Thou shalt not bow down thy self to them nor serve them And now who will wonder that you believe Doctrins not contein'd in Scripture when ye teach and command what is so directly against it P. You fansie that we transgress the Commandments Bellar. de Just l. 4. c. 13. De Monas l. 2. c. 7. but we say that we can fulfil them all and that some do so and more than is commanded too There are those amongst us who are so far from committing any sin that they can do more than is required of them by God Potest homo facere
itself or at least appear most ridiculous I would fain know who told Bellarmin Poena aeterna commutatur in temporalem quando remittitur culpa That when the guilt is forgiven the eternal pain is changed into a temporal I know this was necessary to build upon the Doctrin of Indulgences and Purgatory but the Scripture that hath no such Doctrins makes no such distinctions at all Gal. 3.10 but saith in general Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the Book of the Law to do them No commutation of the eternal into a temporal pain he that transgresseth deserves the curse of the law Ibid. v 1â— But Christ hath redeemed us from that curse Wherefore there remains no more satisfactory pains to the penitent sinner God may indeed visit him still with Chastisements and temporal Judgments but who told you that it must be to make him satisfie for his sins and if it were who gave the Pope power to sell the sinner an Indulgence and so take off that punishment as he pretends to do S. Paul saith that the wages of sin is death Ro. 6.23 but he saith in another place that Christ died for us and that by that means Rom. 5.8 there remains no more wrath to those that are in Christ But admit there had been part of the punishment due to sin to be suffered here and part hereafter and that so a twofold satisfaction had been required yet to say that Christ could not satisfie for the temporal pain would be impious to say that he would not is to speak without book or rather against it Joh. 1.29 for S. John saith Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world He doth not say that he leaves part of them to be taken away by the satisfactions of Saints S. Paul also 1 Tim. 2.6 that he gave himself a ransom for all and S. Peter 1 Pet. 2.24 Rom. 8.1 that his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree and lastly that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ In all these the satisfaction of Christ is general and there is not one place in Scripture that restrains it to one part of the punishment But to do you right you do not absolutely deny that Christ hath also yielded a satisfaction for the temporal pain only you will not have him to give it gratis the Pope must sell it and you will not have it to be sufficient of itself but your own and the Saints must be added to it Whereas it is written Act. 4.12 That there is no salvation in any other and that he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows Isa 53.4 5. that he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities and that God laid on him the iniquity of us all Nothing like that is said of any man but of them all it is written Gal. 6.5 That every one shall bear his own burthen and that we shall appear before the judgment-seat of Christ that every one may receive according to what he hath done not according to what S. Francis hath suffered for him But pray tell us some more of the care of your Church for her necessitous Children P. Why if by their carelesness or poverty they have not bought as many Pardons and Indulgences as would satisfie for the remaining temporal pains which the merits and bloud of Christ did not take away there is provided for them a place of Torments called Purgatory where they are to suffer until they have given full satisfaction or some of their friends have procur'd them a Release by Masses or Indulgences or some other way and after that they are received into heaven Those pains of Purgatory are most intolerable and far greater than any upon earth this Reason and Revelations and the Fathers have assur'd us of Bellar. de Purg. l. â— c. 14. Poenas purgatorii esse atrocissimas cum illis nullas poenas hujus vitae comparandas docent patres probant revelationes ratio And if any one denies Purgatory thinking that God hath so pardoned him by Christ as that there remains no temporal pains whereby he must satisfie the divine justice either in this world or in Purgatory Bellarmin and the Council of Trent condemn him to burn for ever in Hell Constanter asserimus dogma esse fidei Purgatorium Ibid. l. 1. c. 15. adeo ut qui non credit illud ad idem nunquam sit perventurus Concil Trid. S. 6. Can. 3â— sed in gehenna sempiterno incendio cruciandus Si quis dixerit culpam ita remitti reatum aeternae poenae deleri ut nullus remaneat reatus poenae temporalis exsolvendae vel in hoc seculo vel in futuro Purgatorio antequam ad regna coelorum aditus patere possit Anathema sit G. Well done Holy Fathers curse them stoutly those Heretics that would put out that sacred fire which warms you and makes your Pot boil Now the cheat is complete I see your Church-men are resolv'd to have money by hook or by crook If people have wit enough as not to be persuaded to buy Indulgences while they live at least 't is hop'd that when they are dying when their Reason is weak and their fears strong that they shall be willing to part with those goods they can keep no longer to purchase a total exemption from or at least a quicker passage through those dreadful Flames which they are told will torment them God knows how long And if that should fail their surviving friends it may chance will have some pity upon their souls and buy for them all those assistances the Church can afford to help them out of their miseries and so dead or alive thâ—y are like to pay for that care your Church takes for their well-being But I wonder that your Clergy who have power by their Masses and Indulgences to deliver Souls out of Purgatory as fast as they please should be so hard-hearted as to let them lie there except they or their friends have paid for their deliverance And I wonder as much at your Peoples folly that they don't make a sufficient provision of Indulgences while they live for to carry their Souls straightway to Heaven being they could get more than enough by saying some Prayers or visiting certain Shrines and Churches which have an extraordinary faculty that way But what if the Scripture saith That the Souls of the Faithful when they depart out of this life do not go into a place of Torments must we needs be damn'd if we believe it before the Pope In the Revelations Rev. 14.13 Blessed are they that die in the Lord for they rest from their labours and their works follow them their own works follow them not the satisfactory works or passions of the Fryers and they rest from their labours and therefore are not in a place of
intercessione apud Deum obtinenda Anathema sit Si quis dixerit Ecclesia Romana ritum quo submissa voce par canonis verba consecrationis proferuntur damnandum esse aut lingua tantum vulgari Missam celebrari debere Ibid. Can. 9. aut aquam non Miscendam esse vino in Calice eo quod sit contra Christi institutionem Anathema sit In a word let any one read the Institution of that blessed Sacrament in the three Gospels and compare it to what is now done and taught among you and if he will but believe his own eyes he must needs confess that you have most wretchedly corrupted and deform'd it But against your pretended sacrificing of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead Heb 7.26 27. I 'll oppose these Scriptures Such an high Priest became us who needeth not daily as those high Priests to offer up sacrifice first for his own sins and then for the peoples for this he did once when he offered up himself Heb 9.12 By his own bloud he entred once into the holy places having obtained eternal redemption for us What need then he be sacrificed any more for sin and satisfaction as you reach At the 26 verse Once in the end of the world he appeared once to put away sins by the sacrifice of himself the whole Chapter is against Christ being sacrificed again Saint Paul saith that the New Covenant which Christ made with us in his Bloud is this Their sins and iniquities will I remember no more and then infers Now where remission of these is there is no more offering for sin And at the 14 verse it is expresly said That he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified And then what need those daily Sacrifices or Offerings for sin that are amongst you Now let your Church boast no more of her infallibility except she can first prove that those many clear and express Scriptures which speak against her new Doctrines are mistaken or else that God meant by them quite another thing than what he exprest and that men are not to believe any thing of Scripture though never so plain until the Pope hath determined how far and in what sense until that be done we will together with the primitive Concils and Fathers make the Word of God the Rule of our Faith and adhere to the three ancient Creeds and then laugh at your wilful and confident Assertions as we do at that which is call'd a Womans reason P. You may laugh as long as you will you can never scorn us so much as we do you and for all you are so stout here at home if you were in those Countries where there is an Inquisition they 'll make you talk after another rate and feel that such perverse Hereticks as you are deserve to be used as bad as the worst of Infidels and that faith is no more to be kept with you than with Tirants and publick Robbers Praesens Sancta Synodus ex quovis salvo conductu per Imperatorem Reges alios saeculi principes Concil Constant S. 19. haereticis vel de haeresi diffamatis putantes eosdem sic à suis erroribus revocare quocunque vinculo se astrixerint Concesso nullum fidei Catholicae vel jurisdictioni Ecclesiasticae praejudicium generari posse seu debere declarat Quominus dicto salvo conductu non obstante liceat judici competenti Ecclesiastico inquirere punire c. Etiamsi de salvo conductis Confisi ad locum venerint judicii alias non venturi Nec sic permittentem cum fecerit quod in ipso est ex hoc in aliquo remansisse obligatum Fides haereticis data servanda non est Becan Inst tit 46. S. 51. sicut nec tyrannis piratis caeteris publicis praedonibus And so I leave you to the tickling of your own fancy G. Nay good Master don't be gone yet and don 't be so angry I 'll rather not laugh at all than lose your company And the truth is I could much sooner weep when I think of the sad Divisions which are betwixt the hearts as well as the judgments of Christians Though I have an aversion to some of your Doctrines yet I assure you I have none for you nor any others that dissent from our Church And would to God our different Opinions had not so utterly destroyed not only Christian Charity but even Humanity such bloudy and unnatural Doctrines and Practices as you now mentioned had never been seen nor heard of And for all your suddain passion I am perswaded you have so much of humane Nature in your breast that if you consult your heart upon second thoughts you 'll find in it some abhorrence to those cruelties as have often been used against dissenting Christians by those that pretended to be better if not the best of that name P. Truly I confess that in cold bloud I should be unwilling to use such severities against any body and for my own self I would not persecute any man upon the account of Religion But yet I cannot condemn the practice of our Church in this for the Pope out of the plenitude of that power he hath over all the Christian World may well dispose of the life of an Heretick that will not be reclaim'd for he hath power to dispose for the good of Souls and the advancement of the Catholick Faith of the Kingdoms and the very Lives of all Princes if the aforesaid exigencies require it Cardinal Stapleton after having disputed against those who granted too large a power to the Bishop of Rome asserts this as the most moderate Opinion of the Doctors of the Church That in case of mortal sin especially Heresie when 't is likely to be prejudiciable to the Church the Roman Pontiff as being Supreme Pastor of it may for its preservation punish any Princes whatsoever and if it should be requisite deprive them of their Kingdoms either by means of the Parliament or Peers and Commons or in case of necessity that is if it can't be effected that way he may do it immediately by himself by his own Authority by giving his Kingdom to another Prince or to any the first Catholick Conqueror For so he saith Pope Stephen transferr'd the Empire from the Greeks to the Germans and Pope Innocent the Fourth took the Government of the Kingdom from the King of Portugal and gave it to his Brother Stap. contr 3. de primario subjecto potestatis Ecclesiasticae quaest 5. a. 2. In casu peccati mortalis maxime haeresis potissimum quando in publicum aliquod magnum Ecclesiae detrimentum vergit Romanus Pontifex tanquam supremus Ecclesiae Pastor ad ejus conservationem punire quosvis principes potest si rei necessitas exigat regno privare Romanus Pontifex in casu haeresis principem aliquem dominio privare immediata authoritate potest in casu necessitatis alioqui non nisi
lay the greatest stress of your future well-being You cannot but see by what I have objected out of Gods Word against many of your Doctrines and by what many learned men have written out of the best Records of Antiquity if you durst read them that those things in debate betwixt us are at the best but doubtful therefore 't will be more sure to relie chiefly on what is believ'd of both parties our common Symbol or Christian Creed You use to say that yours is the safest Church because we believe as well as you that men may be sav'd in it And now I use the same reason and say that 't is better to believe as we do because you also acknowledge what we believe to be sound and Orthodox That the Scripture is the Word of God and therefore infallible That God is the only Object of our Religious Adoration That Jesus Christ is in Heaven and there to be worshipped That his Blood doth cleanse us from all sin That he intercedes for us and That he will render to every man according to his works the Scripture is plain in all this and you believe it as well as we therefore 't is much more certain and to be relied on than the Popes Infallibility the worshipping Images with the worship of Douleia as you speak the belief of Transubstantiation the Doctrine of Purgatory the relying on the Merits Satisfactions and Intercessions of the Saints and the Pardons and Indulgences of the Church-treasure Bell. de Justif l. 5. c. 7. Propter incertitudinem propriae justitiae periculum inanis Gloriae tutissimum est fiduciam totam in sola dei misericordia benignitate reponere Because of the uncertainty of our own righteousness and the danger of self-conceitedness it is safest of all to put our whole trust in the mercy of God The like might be said of all other points in question But why could not the learned Cardinal say so before and spare himself the great labours he took about Purgatory Indulgences and the Merits and Satisfactions of our selves and others by saying plainly Tutissimum est 't is safest of all to relie upon Gods mercy Certainly in a thing of that moment we should go the surest way to work But pray learn that Lesson of that great Champion of your Church and mind what I have said Now I 'll tell you if you stay a while longer I expect Master V. a Presbyterian Minister one that will tell you stoutly of the Beast and the Whore of Babylon and many other things that will please you as well I should be very glad to hear you discourse together and perhaps 't will not be altogether unpleasant to you P. Ho Master V. I know him of old I would go many a mile to see him and to talk with him I have of late lookt over many of their Presbyterian Books as they printed in the time of the late War I 'll warrant you I 'll make brave sport with him if you please but to stand Spectator or Auditor for a while if you can be patient enough to hear us I dare promise you we 'll find discourse enough to entertain your attention G. I will The Preface THe Doctrines and Constitutions of the Church of England which are rejected and opposed by the Presbyterians have been so fully asserted against their Objections and Innovations by the labours of several learned men that it had been actum agere to thrust my Sickle into other mens Harvest to say any thing in defence of them I have therefore made it my only business to discover their profest Religion as it hath been solemnly taught by the Deeds and Writings of their greatest Divines because I observe that they also draw people after them chiefly by concealing or misrepresenting of it I will not tell thee before hand that they own the worst of Popish Errours thou shalt judge of it when thou hast made an end of reading this Book But for fear thou shouldst think that thou knowest well enough already what their Doctrines are I will assure thee that they disguise them and cunningly hide their real and worst Opinions under fair and specious pretences I know I shall be told that I rake into the dust of old stories and open the grave of Oblivion c. and be called a Lyar and a Calumniator and what else they please Veritas odium parit But I say that those Authors I have cited have never recanted their Errours nor the Divines of that party ever censured or disowned them or their Writings but they still persist to impose upon the people and draw them away from the Church by the same arts and pretences as they did at first And I protest that though I might I have not mentioned the failings of any one man whom I knew to have repented of them by returning to his duty neither have I falsified any of my Quotations in the least nor made such severe reflections upon them as one might but said just as much as I thought would suffice to make them hang together and let the Reader see the cheat And as for their ill speaking of me I regard it not for let it be never so bad I am sure they have said worse of better men than either I am or pretend to be If it be objected That I have brought in a silly Presbyterian who speaks but two or three words at a time and says nothing in his own defence I desire it may be considered that the Papist having the Conclusion to prove was therefore to be longest in his Discourses and that Replies and a full debate of the points in question had been useless and inconsistent with my intended brevity But the truth is I knew not what my Veterator could have answered to those proofs that were brought against him I desire the Reader to observe whether they do admit of any pleas or evasions And now before I suffer thee to hear the Discourse of my Colloquutors let me require these two things of thee First That whatsoever Religion thou art resolved to profess thou wouldst take heed that by deluding arts and goodly pretences thou beest not made to follow those Doctrines and practices which are hereafter mentioned and the which if thou art a Christian and a Protestant thou canst not but condemn as being erroneous and criminal in the highest degree And secondly That thou would not draw poison out of my Antidote be uncharitable to those that are because I have made thee see their errours such foul Doctrines as thou shalt find in this Book are never good but at second hand and they are mentioned by me with designs of charity that thou mightst avoid them not to make thee hate or despise the Authors or Abettors of them Remember that other mens faults shall not excuse thine Wherefore let him that thinketh he stands take heed lest he fall 1 Cor. 10.12 In stead of insulting over them that are misguided or fallen do
fancies and secrets Pray hear what Mr. Francis Cheynell preacht before the Parliament Serm. 1646. p. 2. and 3. God doth communicate rare secrets to certain known and chosen men to Prophets Prophecies Christ to his Disciples Gospel-secrets Doctrinal-secrets God to men of publick spirits secrets of State and we have seen such admirable experiences of Gods mercy in this kind within these five years that our Posterity will scarcely believe what we have seen God imparts mysterious secrets to his chosen people some secrets to make them his friends other secrets after they are his friends convincing secrets humbling secrets converting secrets Don't you think that these secrets are as bad as Latine Again if I may cite the words of one who was somewhat nearer to the Lord than you Thomas Brooks in a Sermon of his 1648. p. 19. O if God would raise up Parliament-men and men in the Army and in the City and round the Kingdom to more spiritual acquaintance with himself to more internal knowledge we should find that they would do abundantly more gloriously for it is want of an internal spiritual knowledge of God that men are Newters Apostates c. As you would do glorious and honourable things look to this that ye have an internal knowledge and spiritual acquaintance with God and this will enable you to do Exploits If you would do gloriously keep your Evidences for Glory always bright and shining soil not your Evidences for Glory And p. 20. If Parliament-men and men in all the Kingdom would believe more gloriously they would do more gloriously for God Spiritual internal knowledge and acquaintance bright Evidences believing gloriously I should think these as hard to be understood by ordinary people as an Ave Maria yet doubtless your people must needs be very knowing when you find them with Books whose very Titles if well understood would be able to open the seven Seals Jos Caryl Preach of Lincolns-Inn 1644. The Saints thankful acclamation at Christs Resumption of his great power and the Initials of his Kingdom A Thanksgiving Sermon for one of your Victories at Selby in York-shire The Thoughts of the Almighty A Sermon preacht before the Mayor by a Divine of the Assembly wherein 't is like those thoughts had been revealed to him John Strickland 1644. Such Books must needs give great instruction to thâ— people and the light of this following Doctrine would questionless expel even an Egyptian darkness T. Palmer ibid. Who would not now desire to close with Christ and love Christ and walk with Christâ— yea who would not be rouled up and wholly inclosed in Christ The many Sermons you printed twenty years agone are for the most part full of such insignificant canting and unintelligible mysteries Now I say it matters not whether it be English or Latine as long as the people doth not understand both will keep them equally ignorant I note only these two differences because they make for us First that our Priests understand their Latine whereas your Rabbies themselves cannot make sense of many of their English Mysteries And secondly that if our people are ignorant at least they are conscious of it and therefore do follow the Church whereas your Disciples when they have got by heart your empty phrases are so self-conceited of their great skill in discerning the things of the Spirit that they judge all others blind that won't admire them and will venture to expound the hardest places in Scripture and sometimes leave you and set up for themselves Pr. The Canons and Injunctions of your Church and the numberless Ceremonies she hath appointed you observe with as much strictness as if they were commanded by God himself and so you make your own devices equal to Gods Ordinances I am sure we do quite contrary for we allow nothing to be done in Gods service but what he hath appointed himself and we will have Scripture for the very Circumstances of Divine Worship Pa. I remember indeed that five of your Doctors told us in an Apology they presented to the Parliament Jer. Bur. Will. Bri. Ph. Nye Syd Sam. Th. Good pag. 10. That they were certain there was in Scripture Rules and ruled Cases for all occasions whatsoever if we were able to discern them But I never heard that they had found out only so much as enough to determine all the Circumstances of Gods Worship However I am sure you have by far out-done us in the magnifying and imposing of your own inventions You told us that if your intended Reformation which was doubtless a device of your own did not take Christianity should go near to be lost The Minister of Ashford in Kent in a Sermon before the Committee of that County Jos Boden 1644. p. 30. informs them of the present danger of loosing the Christian Religion through all the Churches of the World if they should be careless and neglect the opportunity put into their hands The Lord saith he hath set this as a prize but we must run for it this is proposed as a Crown to the Saints but we must fight for it yea and reason good George Gillespie 1645. p. 17. for that Reformation was according to the mind of Christ saith a Minister of Edinburgh to the Commons at Westminster I confess you have rejected the ancient Ceremonies of the Church all that was not of your devising as Mr. Calamy told the Parliament We that live under the Gospel know that the worship of God the more spiritual the more beautiful it is in the eyes of God who is a Spirit and that the outward pomp in Gods service is an attire more fit for the Whore of Babylon than for the modest Spouse of Christ and that Musick in Gods service though it may please the ears of men yet it is unpleasing in the ears of God if you 'll take his word for it But what was of your own inventing O that is much made of Your Presbyterian Government was said to be of Christs own Institution F. Cheynel Serm. 1646. Ep. Dedic Ch. Love at Uxb. p. 20. so the Parliament was taught and you grac'd it with glorious Epithets as in these lines God is feeling the pulse of this Nation looking how we are affected me thinks I hear the Lord asking the Inhabitants of this Kingdom Will you have your Bishops your Common-Prayer-Book c. or will ye have the Gospel in power a reformation in purity your Assemblies refin'd your pollutions removed and the Government of my Son Establisht in the midst of you And so the setling of your Discipline was the setling Christ in his Throne as Mr. White hath it in the Preface to his Centuries 1643. Let us set hand and heart and shoulder and all to advance the Lords Sion to a perfection of beauty and to set up Christ upon his Throne And so another great One of yours S. Marshal Serm. to the Parl. 1643. p. 19. Did ever any Parliament in
Nation wallowing in Bloud was the fulfilling of that Prophecy Mr. Th. Goodwin who belike had seen the Pattern in the Mount being one of the Assembly made this remarkable discovery Th. Good Serm. to the Parl. 1645. p 47. 48 That it is certain we are now in the last times of those ten Kingdoms of Europe of which the Holy Ghost hath prophecied Rev. 17.14 These shall make War with the Lamb c. And where you see saith he that Jesus Christ hath took footing in any of these Kingdoms by such a way of conquest reforming as in ours it hath the second time for greater security stand that Kingdom shall till you see Rome down And yet as mischief would have it the King being restor'd to his right their second Reformation was turn'd out of doors before Rome would down But here is a Seer come from Edinburgh who perchance will have better luck In a Sermon before the Parliament after having cited many Scriptures relating to the time of Christs coming and particularly that Hag. 2.8 The Glory of this latter House c. he infers There are very good grounds to make us think that this Temple is not far off Geo. Gill. 1644. p. 18. and that Christ is to make a new face of a Church in this Kingdom a fair and beautiful Temple for his Glory to dwell in and he is even now about the work So famous Mr. Bond in the same Auditory expounding the Image in the second of Daniel Joh. Bond 1644. p. 18. We are come saith he to the toes of those feet the German Eagle is stript of her plumes Papacy drops her Prelatical Feathers continually so that both Scripture Chronology and common sence do evince that the Image doth stand at best but on tip-toes and the time is at hand and I conceive is present in which it shall be thrown down and utterly abolished Oh the mans modesty that he did not cry out 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 What a pity it is that such quick-sighted Seers have never applied themselves to writing of Opticks I 'll bring but one more but have a care of it for 't is one that can bite and sting if Mr. Coleman be to be believ'd T. Coleman 1645. p. 33. for he told the House of Commons There is a biting Prophecie Joel hath said it chap. 3. v. 19. Egypt shall be a desolation and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness c. Now saith he how to shelter them the Cavaliers from the sting thereof I know not Had not that man great skill in Prophecies that could tell that Egypt and Edom meant the Kings Party So much for that Now 't is to be considered that we call Scripture a Waxen Nose and so don't you Well! But what matters it for calling if you make it so de facto Shall we wrangle about names when we are agreed in the thing I dare lay my Nose against yours there was never a Waxen Nose so distorted and contorted as Scripture was by you I could produce so many proofs of it that I am sure you would be weary if not convinc'd before I had done but for your satisfaction here 's a few of them That place in Daniel In the days of those Kings shall the God of Heaven set up a Kingdom which shall never be destroyed c. and that of St. Matthew I say unto thee Thou art Peter and upon c. These places were brought to prove that the Presbyterians should overcome all their Enemies in a Sermon called T. Palmer 1644. p. 9. The Saints Support in these sad times Let secret Enemies seek to prolong let open Enemies plot prepare and watch God will discover the one disappoint the other and destroy them all Dan. 2.44 Mat. 16.18 And pag. 19. Saints cheer up your hearts ply God with your prayers you shall prevail blessed be God your Enemies have been on the decaying losing hand a pretty while they have in Scotland that you know they have lost in England that you know and they shall lose and lose till they have lost all as much as I have said you shall find in the Revelations in the 17 Chapter you have a large description of the Whore and all her Glory and Chapter 18. and the second Verse there is her destruction Was not that as pat as could be to prove what he intended So Mr. Calamy in a Sermon before the House of Commons speaking of those that would take Arms against the Parliament rather than the Government and Worship they had lived under should be destroyed Edw. Cal. 1645. p. 4. tells them My Text confutes this The times of this ignorance God winked at but now commands all men every where to repent Act. 17.30 Former times were times of ignorance and times wherein mens Consciences were opprest but now the times are times of Reformation God hath given greater liberty and hath sent a greater light in the Kingdom and now God commands all men every where to repent that is as you see to destroy that Worship and Government they lived under And in the forementioned Sermon of William Beech pag. 9. the 136 Psalm is applied to those Encounters wherein they had worsted the Kings Forces O give thanks unto the Lord for he is gracious and his mercy endureth for ever who remembred us at Knasby for his mercy endureth for ever who remembred us in Pembrock-shire for his mercy c. who remembred us at Leicester for his mercy c. who remembred us at Taunton for his mercy c. who remembred us at Bristol for his mercy c. but this by the way I could tell you also how you used Scripture to countenance your cruelty against the Loyal Party but you shall hear of it another time this is enough at present to shew how you have rack'd and abus'd it to make it countenance your wicked follies We call Scripture a Waxen Nose and you make it so I suppose out of kindness to us to make good what we say our Church interprets the Doctrinal part of Scripture and every one of you not only that but even the hardest Prophecies of it Pr. Well but as much Popes as you can make us we don't deny but that we are subject to Kings and Princes as not only your Pope but even your meanest Clergy doth we don't say that we can absolve Subjects from their Oath of Allegiance we don't pretend to have the right of disposing of the Good of all Christians and even of all the Kingdoms in the World in order to the good of souls as your great Bishop doth Pa. Why Do you think when the Pope was as yet weak and struggling for that Power he hath now got into his hands that he own'd any such Doctrines No I 'll warrant him And to my thinking you have shewn more courage than ever he did for you have assum'd that high Authority you speak of even when you were not altogether able to maintain