possession of that sense of the scripture which they pretēded to be false and wrōg And surely no man of common sense who is in possessiō and hath the law in his owne hands will yeild it vp without euidence on the cōtrarie part The second rule I desire a Catholike should obserue is not to thinke his cause lost because him self cannot answere the argumēts proposed against him nor to venter his cause and his possession vpon his owne wit For the disputation being in a matter wherein according to the Protestants groundes there is no certaintie it followeth that who hath the better wit or is more practized in this matter may bring an argumēt a good scholler cannot solue at the first sight though afterwards ether he or some other may And what a follie were it for a man to venture his soule and conscience vpon a subtilitie or present flash of wit whereof peraduenture within an hower hee him selfe will see the falsitie and condemne his owne errour Wherefore a Catholike is not to venter the cause vpon his owne head nor to confesse it weake because he cannot defende it for both may he improue him selfe and some others perhapps may goe farr beyōd him The third rule is that the Catholike should neuer vndertake to conuince his Aduersarie out of scripture but content him self that these words may well beare this sense which is in fauour of the Catholike church And this is both more easie to performe and sufficient for his pourpose For the Catholike hath an assured grounde of his faith besides scripture and which relyeth not vpon it nay he holdeth that his Religion cannot be wholy conuinced out of scripture to what end therefore vnlesse he would show his wit should he vndertake to proue his tenents by scripture For this were to strenghen his opponent in his owne grounde and principle to wit that all is to be proued out of scripture Nephew You would binde Protestants to verie vnequall conditions if you will oblige them to conuince and the Catholike not nay that it shal be sufficient for the Catholike to shew this may be the meaning of this or that place of scripture whereas the Protestant shal be forced to proue cleerely and euidently that this is the verie sense of the text Vncle. Not I cozen but the Protestants them selues oblige thē selues to this hard measure for if a man should strongly mātaine that a Beetle were the best instrument to cut withall and you saie no were no he bound to cut with a Beetle and it were no sense to saie that you should be forced to doe it since you mantaine it to be impossible So they who hold that the scripture is the true iudge of controuersies and fit and able to decide all quarells and dissensions about the Christian faith and law binde them selues by holding this to conuince their positions by scripture which cānot be exacted at his hands Who saith scripture was not made for this end nor is sufficient for it And looke vpon Luther and the Heretikes of his timē nay vpon the Puritants of our days and see if they doe not all mātaine that they can conuince their tenēts by scripture and saie that our forefathers were wholy ignorant of scripture and that wee now liuing knowe nothing of it But to goe on with our rules of disputing out of scripture The fourth condition shall bee that the Catholike doe not admitte anie negatiue proofes as to saie this is an errour because you can shew no scripture for it For this is no proofe vnlesse they will suppose that nothing is true but scripture or that there is nothing to bee donne but what is ordained by scripture which were absurd for nether Catholike nor I thinke anie good Protestant will admitte of that supposition being it were not only to take away the power of the church but euen nature from nature for nature teacheth vs to helpe our selues where scripture doth not contradict and as a Puritant seeketh a pulpit or high place to preach in without looking whether he haue a warrant for it in the scripture to command him so rationall and sensible men doe seeke a particular habit for a preacher or Clergie man whereby he may be more decent and comely and his words and exhortations be receiued with more respect and authoritie and this without anie cōmande of the scripture which where it commandeth it maketh the thing cōmanded to be necessarie where it is silent there it maketh nothing vnlawfull Nephew If the Protestants were to disput vpon these conditions they would keepe of I warrant you Yet this I must tell you that it were a great satisfaction for indifferent men that haue beene brought vp in this verball and apparent respect of the scripture to see that the positions you would induce them vnto can bee and are maintened by scripture and that they are grounded therein This perhapps you can doe by shewing mee some other waie of dealing with thē and whether there be not §. 15 An other manner of disputing out of scripture VNcle For their sakes cozen I will tell you of an other sort of disputation wherein the Protestant shall haue no other disaduantage but of his cause For I thinke that the Catholike cause may not only be maintened by scripture but also that it hath the better stāding precisely to scripture alone I confesse this kinde of disputation is not fit for manie Auditors but only for moderate and vnderstanding men And it is to make this the question Whether partie is more probable if only scripture were to bee alleadged This Question requireth diuers suppositions where vpon both sides are to be agreed which I feare will bee some what hard As what texts are to preuaille what cōmentaries or explicatiōs shall be allowed of what is a proper and an improper speeche amongst improper speeches which must be preferred what copies of euerie text shal be held for good what coniectures shall be accounted null against the naturall sense And manie other such positions which would not be easily resolued This donne let both sides bring their places for the pointe in question and so the disputatiō will only be of the qualificatiō of the places that is to shew whether are more apparēt and likely of the two And for this I see lekewise that so manie logicall principles are first to bee resolued which partly are found as yet amongst the critickes disputations as that all the Logickes hitherto inuented would not afford sufficiēt light and instruction to make an euident conclusion whether side were more apparent in words and Tetxs And therefore you may ghesse how farr these disputations out of scripture are frō clearing doubts what litle good cometh of them vnlesse they bee well gouerned And how for the most part the best credit or the best tongue carrieth awaie the day by the Auditor's preiudicat opinion or weaknesse In a word the scripture being not written for this end to wit for the
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
iudgment such differences I saye make Aliens and deserue to be cutt of from communion Vncle. You haue discursed well but not home at least to the second part of the replye about the pointes them selues whether they be but matters of opinion or no what saye you to that Nephew That also is euident to me to witt that the pointes disputed betwixt Catholikes and Protestants are most materiall and substaÌ„tiall ones For suppose Christ's bodie be truly and really in the Blessed Sacrament and that t' is God him self which the Priest sheweth the people to adore it suerly can be no slight offence not to giue him due honnor nor contrariewise no smale crime to adore that for God which truly is not so If Christ haue left the authoritie of gouerment to Bishops of Absolution from sinnes to Priests it is no indifferent nor pettit busines to take theÌ„ out of the church If it be Idolatrie to hoÌ„nor images praye to Saincts and the like can we thinke it no great matter whether we doe so or no seing the scripture full of so manie plagues faling vpon rhe Iewes for Idolatrie Vncle. Why cozen may not a Protestant answere you likewise that if one of the opinions controuerted betwixt Thomists and Scotists be Pelagianisme the other Caluinisme can you thinke that such pointes are of smale importance Wherefore he will tell you that all such pointes are verie hard questions graue learned and vnpassionate men on both sides and therefore what so euer the truth be in it self yet so long as God Allmightie see 's our harts to be right towards him and that we desire to doe what his law teacheth vs so farr as we are able to know it all these and the like opinions are but only materiall errors and doe not hinder vs from being good Christians Nephew Truly Vncle you haue puzled me now for vnlesse such pointes and questions doe trench vpon the churche's authoritie why should not the church beare with such opinions but so seuerely cast them out of communion ad shutt heauen gates vpon the Authours and Beginners of them Certes vnlesse there be some necefsitie why certaine pointes are to be knowne by the whole church others not I confesse I cannot answere you but I come to learne and therefore when my owne discourse reacheth not I must craue your helping hand to direct me And I shall thinke the yeare well hanselled if you make me vnderstand what pointes are to be knowne of necessitie and why but first I pray tell me §. 2 Whence proceedeth and dependeth the necessitie of knowing pointes of Religion VNCLE To sett you in the waye you must first tell me what you thinke this word necessitie doth importe so farr as it concerne's our pourpose Nephew You know I am no great claâ—ke and therefore I cannot speake of necessitie nether as a Gramarian nor as a Logician but as farr as I vnderstand and intende by my question there is two sortes of necessities the one so absolute as that the thing we desire cannot without such a meanes be anie waies gotten or doÌ„ne the other in respect of such a meanes without the which our desire cannot bee well and conueniently obtained For we commonly saie that such or such a thing cannot be done or gotten when it is extreme hard and painefull to gett it And therefore some times we call that necessarie without which our desire cannot be fullfilled but with great labour and difficultie and some times that without which it cannot absolutely be compassed Vncle. Mary cozen you neede nether Gramarian nor Logician to helpe you The necessitie of knouing pointes of faith is to be compared to a church or coÌ„panie of belieuers and not to euerie particularman nor to mende what you haue said But since you are so skilfull and that you now see what is necessarie in generall to witt the know ledge of Christian doctrine and what it is to be necessarie I will trouble you with a farther demaÌ„de giuing you first this caueat That my intention is not to examine or declare what expresse and distinct knowledge or beliefe ought euerie particular and indiuiduall man to haue whithout which he cannot possibly be saued this being a thing depending of so manie secret and vnknowne circumstances as that it seemeth to be specialy reserued as only befitting God's infinite wisdome and deuine iustice though some times a prudent man may shrodly guesse and in a possible supposition of a particular man's dying without repentance in a positiue and wilfull contradicting beliefe to the doctrine of the Catholike church it would be no breach of charitie to conclude his daÌ„nation Yet at this present we will only speake of the necessitie of knowing and belieuing seuerall controuerted pointes of Christian doctrine in respect of a church or coÌ„panie of professed Christians in coÌ„mon and not as the knowledge thereof is necessarie to euerie particular man Now therefore tell me what is the end for which this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie Nephew How be knowledge of Christian doctrine cometh to be nessarie to saluation That I suppose no man doubteh but t' is heauen or in more learned termes the sight or true and proper knowledge of Allmightie God who being the cause and Creator of All things he that clearely see 's and truâ—y know's him will see and know all other things in him which all together fall so farr short of giuing such content as is taken by seeing him that the sight of him is only accompted Blisse and the sight of all the rest is but a retenue and conuenience of that first and cheefe sight which of it self alone is our essentiall Happinesse Vncle. This I confesse cozen is both verie true and verie well said of you but yet I must haue an other answere for sure you haue ouer skipp't some thing What connection is there I pray betwixt the knowledge of Christian doctrine and seeing of Allmightie God Some thing I saie must of necessitie be betwixt them for which what soeuer it be the knowledge of Christian doctrine will be more immediately necessarie Which if you can tell me what it is we shall thereby more easily discouer and conceiue what and how farr this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie for vs. Nephew Why vncle you know I haue beene taught no farther then to know what I ought to belieue and doe and that in belieuing and doeing so I shall come to heauen Vncle. And were you not taught that the commandements were resumed and coÌ„prehended in two to wit in the loue of God and of your neighour Nephew Yes that I was but what that appertaine's to your question that I vnderstand not vnlesse peraduenture your meaning be that the accomplishment of these two lawes is the immediate stepp to our Blisse Which as I see t' is verie likely yet doe I not fully conceiue why it should be so vnlesse heaueÌ„ goe by wishing whereas I haue still beene taught it goe's by
it but by the scripture which we doe not hold to be sufficient to determrne controuersies without tradition So that I haue no more to saye to you but wish you may begine this new yeare with a good night's rest which God send vs both Whether scripture alone is fit and able to decide controuersies in Religion THis Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. The Preface or introduction 2. That tradition for scripture is not of as great force as for pointes of Doctrine 3. That tradition for scripture is not more vniuersall then tradition for doctrine 4. That it is impossible the text of scripture should haue remained incorrupted 5. What vncertaintie the errors of writers and copists hath bredd in scriptures 6. What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations hath bredd in scripture 7. That the verie repeating and reciting of an others words breedeth a varietie and vncertaintie 8. The vncertaintie of EquiuocatioÌ„ which of necessitie is incident in all writings 9. That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceased 10. The vncertaintie which followeth the particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was vritten 11. That the nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting for deciding of controuersies 12. Two manners of iudging of Religion out of scripture 13. How scripture doth determine controuersies 14. what laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture 15. Of an other manner of disputing out of scripture §. 1 The Introduction VNCLE How now cozen what make's you so early this morning could you not sleepe this last night Nephew Yes indifferent well I thanke God but t' is not verie early Howsoeuer if I be trublesome I will expect your better leasure for I am come only to tell you a scrupule that I had yesternight which hath tormeÌ„ted me euer since And it is that we Catholikes who beare so great reuerence and veneration to the holy scripture receiue more of it then others write infinite volumes of commentaries vpon it as Paul's church yard can witnesse and are so exact to improue our selues I meane our learned men in the knowledge of it should neuerthelesse when wee come to ioyne in the maine point that is to the decision of controuersies in Religion seeme to fly of and recurre to other iudges though we acknowledge it to be Christ owne word and law And now I haue tould you my difficultie I will leaue you to your better imployments knowing how much you esteeme and how precious you accompt your mornings and therefore I will make bould to call for your answere an other time Vncle. Nay stay cozen God forbid I should thinke I could better imploy my time then in giuing you satisfaction in question of such importance or that you should be importune vnto me by desiring the knowledge of a thing so necessarie and so be seeming you I were to blame if I would not leaue euen my prayers to assist you in this point and perhaps an other time you will not be so earnest on it Although I must coÌ„fesse I am some what vnwilling to diue into this questioÌ„ for I see by experieÌ„ce that the one part seeketh by all meanes to destroy the authoritie of God's church and the other seemeth to lessen the power of scripture for the deciding of controuersies so that indifferent men and as yet vnsetled be left as it were without all meanes of coming to the truth How soeuer necessitie excuseth vs for were our Aduersaries able to performe what they promise that is to resolue pointes of controuersies by scripture we were worse theÌ„ beasts if we should refuse to be iudged thereby But if to stand to scripture only as they doe be but a plausible way to Atheisme and so the question will only be whether we must rely vpon a church or be Athiests for we thinke by scripture alone lefâ—t without the guard of the church nothing or at least not enough for the saluation of mankinde can be sufficiently prouued then euerie man wil see that we are forced by reasoÌ„ and Religion to make euident and knowne as farr as we caÌ„ the necessitie of relying vpon a church and to vse all our power to persuade men therevnto And if you remember we said yesternight that Christian Religion or the law of Iesus Christ cannot be learned by witt and studie but by authoritie and by receiuing it from Iesus Christ And that wee said likewise that he is no true Christian nor truly of the communitie of Christians what so euer be his materiall beliefe who doth not accept of that rule and meanes which Iesus Christ hath left and ordained for the receipt of his law and the like of him who should follow anie other rule which must needes be ether scripture or tradition or both it will therefore euiâ—â—ntly follow that ether we must be no Christians or accept and acknowledge tradition to be this rule if wee can shew that the scripture is not fitt nor hath the conditions requisite for the deciding of controuersies nor was made or left to the church for this end Nephew The greater is the necessitie of this question the more gladd am I that I haue moued it though me thinke's I my self might well see it is not fitt to make the scripture iudge of coÌ„trouersies because we finde by experience that after so manie disputations and so manie bookes written on ether side there is nothing resolued nor are we the nearer an end and therefore t' is euident that scripture alone will neuer decide and determine our quarells and disputes Vncle. Well cozen since you will haue it so our first question shall bee §. 2 Whether tradition for scripture be of as great force as it is for pointes of doctrine ANd first I pray you tell mee doe you thinke that the Apostles when they weÌ„t about the world to preach Christ Iesus carried with theÌ„ all the bookes of the ould and new Testament ether readie translated into the languages of the people whom they preached vnto or else caused them to be translated by the first Christians Nephew I neuer thought of this question before but I see well enough that they could not carie all with them for some parts certainely were not made before they went to to preach nay I a'm not assured whether anie part of the new testament was made before their dispersion from Hierusalem so that well may they haue caried the ould Testament with theÌ„ if they thought it sitting but for the new they could not if I be not mistakeÌ„ Vncle. It is verie true I will tell you therefore cozen how the authoritie of the scripture that is Now the neW Testament Was pro aga ted of the new Testament came into the church An Apostle or Disciple writing a booke or Epistle coÌ„municated it to that church or Countrie wherein he preached or to which he writte it that church coÌ„municated it to their neighbours as the worke
of such an Apostle so by litle and litle it grew froÌ„ one countrie to an other vntill it was spredd ouer the whole Christian world So that some countries had not the new Testament complete that is all the bookes of it for a long time Wherefore no wonder that some haue doubted of seuerall parts thereof being not able to auerre as not assured by reason of some accident that such bookes were truly the workes of such an Apostle or Disciple which not withstaÌ„ding Why the canon of scripture is cheefely to be had from Rome better intelligeÌ„ce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for scripture And here you may note by the way that the Roman church is that church to which in reason wee ought to giue most credit touching the canon of the scripture For Rome being at that time â—that is at least for the first 300 yeares to the Christian world or rather to all the Christians dispersed in diuers parts of the world as London is to England And that wee see the collection of things estimable dispersed in seuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome is sooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie it must needes follow that the collection of the Holy scripture or new Testament was more exactly faisable at Rome then at anie other place But this by the way For my ayme is to make you iudge whether anie one substantiall point The state of the questioÌ„ which the Apostles whith common conseÌ„t preached through the whole world compared to anie one booke of the new Testament which soeuer you thinke first or best receiued whether I say of these two haue descended vnto vs with more certaintie the one to be the Apostles doctrine the other to be such an Apostle's booke Nephew I should distinguish your question for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apostle him selfe deliuered it both in word and writing or to the whole church And I confesse that in respect of the whole church that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached must needes haue more certaintie but where both are equaly deliuered by the same Apostle to the same church I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie theÌ„ the word For t' is an easie matter to let slipp a word some times Whereas writing requireth a more setled consideration Vncle. If the question be but of a particular church or Prouince I doubt it will not be sufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other vnlesse we add more circumstances then we haue declared And the reason is because one Prouince maye haue had Religion so ruinated in it by the incursion of infidells that recouering theÌ„ selues after a long time they may as well mistake one booke for an other as one doctrine for an other and so this point is not much to our pourpose Although euen in this case the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath these aduantages That it is deliuered to manie the booke to few or in some one place The doctrine heard and vnderstood by manie the booke only to such as can reade nor to all them nether but to such as are carefull The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude the doctrine gouernes their whole liues The booke brought often times by some one maÌ„ as some messeÌ„ger if it be an Epistl or other wise sent from some other place or froÌ„ some one person as from Titus of Timotheus to whom it was first written and vpon whose authoritie only the whole veritie must originally rely But to returne to our case Doe you not see that the whole church trusteth some one particular man at the first vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is such an Apostles worke that is scripture But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpoÌ„ the vniuersall knowledge of theÌ„ who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world So that as I doe not intende to say the one is certaine the other not for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in some circonstances yet I must needes say that betwixt these two certainties there is such a differeÌ„ce that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude that this booke is scripture because it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached then that this doctrine is the Apostle's because it is conformable to this booke For if it be true that the whole church once relyed vpon some one particular church for this veritie it can neuer come to passe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time And consequently the same comparison which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuersall church the same I say is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke 's being scripture and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apostolike And for the inconuenience you were jealous of it falleth out quitt contrarie For whether we considere the inspiration and assistance of the holy ghost or the industrie aed carefullnesse of man you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at then the meanes to compasse the end and likewise amongst diuers meanes the most immediate to the end is still most aymed at wherefore in our case the end both of writing and speaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people no doubt I say but that both the AssistaÌ„ce of the holy ghost and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance in which only there might be a slipp as you immagine Wherefore sithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apostles spoke but meerely what belong's to ChristiaÌ„ doctrine which was principally deliuered and the cheefe errand of the Apostles and that in the scriptute manie things are written vpon occasion and as it were by the bye no doubt but in both these respects to wit of the assistance of the holy ghost and of the care of man the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth theÌ„ of the holy writt Besides the slipps you speake of are when things are only once deliuered or spoken without great premeditation whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on so as there can be no feare of such slipping HoW the old Testament came to Christians hands For the ould TestameÌ„t as I confesse t' is possible that the Apostles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached so likewise I thinke t' is euident that they neuer did it being that the church hath no such memorie And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by some and the Iewish Canon alleadged whereof there had beene no vse nor neede if the
reiected make the case more ambiguous becaus they giue meÌ„ power out or such or such a probabilitie to coniecture a truth and out of coniecturall proofe to belieue it For as we all confesse that what soeuer is certainely knowne to be scripture is not to be touched so we know likewise that what soeuer may be doubted of whether it be scripture or no obligeth to no such respect Wherefore if reason conclude and tell vs that in all likelyhood there hath beene twenty variae lectiones in euerie particular columne though perhapps two or three only are extant the rest probably knowne to haue beene yet so as that there is no certaine signe of which or where they were And now there cometh one to presse a place in this or that columne which his opponent thinketh to be contrarie to other places may he not then iustly saiâ—â— sir I mistrust this place to be corrupted Or can his Aduersarie in prudence vrge it on as an assured text Or can he presse and auerre for certaine that this is none of the 17. vnknowne variae lectiones Certes he cannot abstracting from all warrant and commande of the church and standing to pure and precise reason So that all controuersies would be ended where nothing but scripture is admitted as iudge with a Non liquet Nephew I expected you should haue shewed me how hard it is to agree about the true sense of the words of the scripture but as I now perceiue there is as much difficultie to know whether we haue the true and right text or no which if it were well conceâ—â—â—d and vnderstood by our deuout and pure citizen's Wifes of London who turne and vew the text so curiously wheÌ„ the preacher citeth it I belieue it would much coole the zeale of their spirit if such a qualme should come ouer their stomackes as to thinke these words peraduenture are not the Holy scripture But to this vncle may you not add the varietie of translations I pray tell me §. 6 What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations haue bread in scripture VNcle No doubt cozen but great vncertaintie is sprung from the varietie of translations Whereof we may first suppose that there is no constat of anie infalibilitie in the translatours no not of the septuaginta them selues what of the septuaginta translation which the Protestants will easily graÌ„t I know there is a storie how that the septuagiÌ„ta being seperated one froÌ„ an other their traÌ„slatioÌ„ light to be the same word for word Which if it were certaine I should esteeme their traÌ„slation of as great authoritie as the originall text it self But we see that eueÌ„ in the Apostles time some sought to mende their interpretation as Theodotion and Aquila whose translations were neuerthelesse accepted of by the church and conserued and esteemed Wherefore there is no likelyhood that the Apostles and the church of their times held the septuaginta traÌ„latioÌ„ to be specially froÌ„ the holy ghost Not doth it import that the Apostles some times vsed in their speeches or writings this translation for they must needes vse it or none wheÌ„ they wrote to those whose language was Greeke and therefore would haue thought them to haue mistaken the text if they had cited the scripture's words according to the Hebrew When the Hebrew was differeÌ„t from the Greeke Nor can wee certainely tell that is was alwayes the Apostle that vsed it and not the Historian Who writing in Greeke and to Grecians cited the Greeke words what words soeuer the Apostle had vsed being both to the same effect The next point which we may considere in this varietie of translations is why diuers traÌ„slations in the same tongue that neuer anie begane a new version in the same language but for some mislike in the former For if he thought a new traÌ„slation to be necessarie he must needes conceiue that the former traÌ„slator had in manie and important pointes missed and altered the minde of the author Whereby euerie wisman will see that a booke of importaÌ„ce is neuer left of to be translated vntill there be some inhibition to the contrrrie And hence we may conclude that it is impossible for a translator to be so exact as that his words shall be taken for the words of the author Nay contrariewise it is the law of a good translator not to yeild word for word with the verie originall but to expresse the seÌ„se thereof in the best manner he can For since no two laÌ„guages jumpe equaly in their expressions it is impossible that euerie word of the one should haue a full expression of euerie word of the other much lesse that their phrases should be the same so that per force there must needes be a great differeÌ„ce in particulars although the substance of the sense and meaning be the same And who should conferre anie one chapter of two translations in the same language and see whether anie one senteÌ„ce doe so exactly agree as that scanning rigorously the varietie of their words there may not be some different sence gathered out of them And he will not denie but t' is impossible to put fully and beyond all quarell the same sense in diuers words And truly I thinke that euerie one wil admit at least as much difference and varietie betwixt the originall and the translation as betwixt translation and translation these agreeing in the same tongue those not and yet hauing all the other reasons of disagreeing And doe you not thinke cozen that if one should take twentie of the best schollers in a schoole and giue them an author to translate ether out of latin into English or out of English into latin that their translations would so differ in manie sentences as that diuers senses might be easily gathered out of them And iudge there vpon that when witts are sett contentiously to discusse euerie possible varietie what truth can be conuinced where anie two may disagree though both acknowledge the author An other considerable circuÌ„stance is that amoÌ„gst all antient translations none can be reiected because it may euer be supposed that the reasoÌ„ of this varietie may proceede from a various copie out of which they were translated and by reason we cannot disapproue the copie as wee said before we cannot therefore likewise nether iustly nor certainely refuse the translation hauing nothing to grounde such refusall but coniectures and likelyhoods which be verie imperfect And if we come to calculate we may verie well suppose that there are now some twenty translations made into seuerall laÌ„guages I might put more for there hath beene peraduenture 200 latin translations considering the greatnesse of the Roman Empire for so manie Ages and the esteeme of the booke making euerie man desirous to haue an exact text none being as yet euer acknowledged for such nor anie prohibition of translating scripture Which varietie of latin translations the Protestants them selues acknowledge and saie verie well that they perished after S. Hierome's
correction and amendment of the Bible whose complaints of the varietie of texts all the world knowes and indeede the inutilitie and discommoditie of such multiplicitie caused them all to be neglected though some thinke our vulgata editio to haue euer beene conserued Howsoeuer we may goe on with our supposition and add that of those twenty trāslatiōs now extāt euerie one is equall to anie other Let then a sentence be proposed whose nature and definition is to decide a controuersie but with this condition which ordinarily happeneth in such a case to witt that it dependeth on the proprietie of some word or on the Emphasis of some manner of speaking Is it possible that anie reasonable man should thinke that all these translations will agree in such a thing Three or fouer peraduenture may but for twentie t' is absolutly impossible And if anie one of these translations be substantially different all the rest cannot with certaintie or euidence beare it downe sithence this might be out of a different copie with which perhapps agreed more then we haue so that we shall still returne to our former non liquet And hence followeth that although a translation in the whole bulke be morally the same booke with the originall yet metaphysically and rigorously there is great diuersitie and at least such as in our case maketh all translations of the scripture vnfitt to decide cōtrouersies by them Nephew Your discourse will not only make mee beleeue what I haue heard reported S. Augustin should saie Epist Man funda cep 5. that hee would not belieue scripture vnlesse the church's authoritie moued him therevnto but I feare it tendeth to the too great weakening of the scripture which hath beene so happily planted in the church and got this supereminent authoritie which it hath to some good effect without doubt though not for the decision of controuersies and therefore you will proue to much and in seeking to destroy one errour you will bee in danger to fall into an other This I am sure of that if you should preach this doctrine at S. Antolins the people would stone you with their brasencornerd Bibles though peraduenture if they laid all their heads together they could not giue you a sufficient answere But thus much I learne now when I reflect vpon them that they haue no reason to obiect against vs our trusting of our church and Pastours for the sense and explication of the scripture whereas thē selues must needes rely vpon a douzen or twenty Parsons or Ministers if there were so manie imployed in their translation for the verie text it self whose skills or wills might be defectiue according to their owne maxime so that we rely vpon the whole church they pore people vpon what they nether thinke certaine nor infalible nor probable but as farr as they please Vncle. I will finde a time to satisfie your feares of my diminishing the scripture's authoritie and will shew you how all I haue said doth nothing preiudice the layfull and intended vse of the scripture and if I should chance to forget I pray you put mee in minde before we part For the present I will propose you an other difficultie which is §. 7 Whether the verie rehearsing and citing of an others words doe not breede varietie and vncertaintie ANd let vs suppose the writer him self play the translatour As for example that our sauiour him self hauing spoken in Hebrew or Syriake the Holy writer is to expresse his words in Greeke or Latin And farther that this which we haue said of translatiōs be as truly it is groūded in the verie nature of diuers languages and therefore vnauoidable by anie art or industrie will it not clearely followe that euen in the originall copie writtē by the Euāgelist's owne hand there is not in rigour the true and self-significant words of our sauiour but rather a comment or Paraphrase explicating and deliuering the sense thereof Nay let him haue written in the same language and let him haue set downe euerie word and sillable yet men conuersant in noting the changes of meanings in words will tell you that diuers accents in the prononciation of them the turning of the speakers head or bodie this way or that way the allusion to some person or to some precedēt discourse or the like may so change the sense of the words that they will seeme quite different in writing from what they were in speaking So that you see how like negligent men wee cōmonly vse to presse words as the proper and identicall words of our sauiour finding them registred in the Holy writt Which in rigour and exactly speaking are but in some sorte an imperfect and equiuocall paraphrase or expression of Christ's owne true words the weakenesse of mā's speach and expressiō bearing no greater exactnesse And surely all experienced men but especially disputatife schollers who finde meanes dayly to explicate the planest words of ā authour to a quite different sense will tell you that to seeke to conuince an exact truth out of bare and dead words is to put your self into a darke some and wild laborinth And to rely vpon them is to fixe the Camelions colours in the currēt of the winde or water Wherefore cozen hauing I thinke sufficiently tould you my minde concerning the text it self let vs goe farther and looke into §. 8 The vncertaintie of equiuocatiō which of necessitie is incident in all writings ANd to proceede more clearely wee will suppose for the present that there is but one authenticall copie of the scripture written in some one language and hereby abstract from all varieties of texts by translations or errours or anie such accident and meerely considere what of necessitie followes out of this that the scripture is a booke written in words of men and whether this supposed there can be anie decisiue and decretory sense euidently and certainely gathered out of it Tell me then cozen doe you thinke t' is an easie matter to decide cōtrouersies by words or why not Nephew I know words are but signes of what is in our mindes sett and ordained to that ende by the will of man wha ars words and therefore that diuers men signifying their mindes by diuers signes come to make diuers languages And I know likewise that though it bee an ordinarie thing amongst vs to hange vp a bush to signifie thereby that in the house there is wine to be sould yet peraduenture in an other coūtrye some thing else may signifie the selling of wine and a bush some other thing So may it happen that the same word in one language may signifie one thing and in an other some thing else And because I likewise see that it may so fall out that these two nations ioyne in one or haue much commerce together by vse and custome this word may come to haue two significations euen in the same language And so will breede a difficultie in whether of the two senses it is to be
a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike Which is as much as to aske §. 13 How scripture doth determine controuersies NPEHEW How should I know that vnlesse I were able to prooue my Religiō out of scripture or at least that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in scripture Which is beyond my capacitie Vncle. Then I will tell you cozē there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular And this I dare not saie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing scripture is able to doe for we see those who write of controuersies doe alledge but few places nor those vnauoidable nether for some pointes of Catholike doctrine Nor is it to be expected Because man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned And seeing likewise that long practise maketh men perfect in all arts There being no prohibitiō to perfect in some sort the instruction of the faithfull the oeconomie of the church and some such other things which the oppressed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectiō no maruelle I saie if these and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the scripture but shall therefore I know not who rise vp and exclame these things be superstitious hurtfull to the faithfull ād make a schisme to destroy them Who doth not see that this were plaine faction and Rebellion The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by some common principle as if by reading of scripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduersarie call's in question or also if wee finde it commēded there in generall or the authours and obseruers of it praised and extolled And in this waye I doubt not but a sensible and discreete reading of scripture at large may and will make anie true student of it a perfect beleeuing Catholike so he proceede with indifferēcie ād with a minde rather to know scripture then to looke for this or that point in it But now can you tell me cozē how it cometh to passe that sithence by an exact and particular examinatiō of the words of scripture these truths cānot be conuinced and beaten out of it how I saie is it possible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it these truths should appeare for that cānot be in the summe which is not in the particulars Nephew I can tell you that there is the same difficultie in the diuers sights of the walle which you made me experiēce but euen now but to yeild you a good reason ether of the one or the other that passeth my vnderstanding Vncle. Haue you not seene an inuētion of the Architects who can so dispose pillars in a gallerie that setting your eye in a certaine position you shall see the figure of a mā or a beast and walking a long the gallerie to goe to it it vanisheth awaie and you shall see nothing but pillars Or haue not seene a silinder or pillar of glasse before which if you laie certaine papers full of scrawolles and scrables and looking into the pillar you shall see the picture of a man or the like As these are dōne so it happeneth in our case both in the eye and in the vnderstanding For the art of these things is that certaine parts may so come together to the eye as that other parts ether by situation or by some other accident remaine hidden and that those parts which appeare being seene without the others will make this or that shape In our case likewise the quantitie of the seene parts exceeding the vnseene keepes the whole possession of the eye in the sight and of the vnderstanding in reading not letting the reste appeare And hence it is also that this common manner of vsing scripture is more secure then the exact ballancing of it For nether the varietie of translations nor the errours of copies nor the difficulties of languages nor the mutabilitie of words nor the multiplicitie of the occasions and intentions of the writers nor the abundance of the things written nor the different framinges of the bookes which be the causes of vncertaintie in a rigorous examinatiō haue anie such power as to breake the common and ordinarie sense or intention of the writer in generall as all bookes testifie vnto vs. And hence it is likewise that the holy fathers pressed scripture against the Heretickes of their times partly forced therevnto because the Heretickes generally will admitte of no proofe but out of the scripture but cheefly by reason their workes are diffuse and oratoricall befitting people vsed to orations and sermons as the Greekes and Romans were diuers of the fathers them selues bredd in that sort of learning Wherefore you shall haue them cite manie places some proper some Allegoricall some common all some times auoidable if they be taken seperatly but the whole discours more or lesse forcible according to the naturall parts or heauenly light more or lesse communicated to one then to an other yet still in the proportion of oratours who speake to the multitude and not to Socrates or Crysippus Wherefore the scripture in this kinde was a fitting weapon for them and the churche's continuing and reremaining in their doctrine sheweth that they vsed it dexterously and as it ougth to be vsed with relation and dependance of tradition Nephew Why then sir must all disputatiō of Religiō out of scripture be abolished For if there can bee no certaintie gathered out of it in a decisiue ād definitiue waie to what pourpose should a man ether alledge it or admitte it in disputes of Religion at least tell me I pray §. 14 What laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture VNCLE I am farr frō disliking disputation out of scripture so it be donne with those conditions which are fitting and which may bring the matter to some vpsh ott The first rule I would haue a Catholike obserue is not to dispute with a Protestāt vnlesse he promise to proue his position euidently and manifestly For since the Catholike knowes there may be certaine wittie probabilities and hard places of scripture brought against him it were madnesse in him to leaue his tenet custome optima legum interpres stāding for him and the practize of the church being on his side which is the greatest argument that can be brought to shew how and in what sēse the scriptures which that church hir self deliuereth are to be vnderstood it were I saie meere follie in a Catholike to leaue his tenent and accept of an other only for a probable and likely interpretation his owne being confirmed by that practize which maketh it more then probable And it is cleere the Protestant must needes pleade against possession for at the first breaking when the Protestants pretended to reforme the church she was surely in possession of those things which they pretended to take awaie and in
two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for 〈◊〉 belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the 〈…〉 anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should 〈◊〉 no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can
shyne day to fit on And one should tell you that in the next sessions following they would decree it had beene a verie fowle day aÌ„d would commande vnder paine of death euerie man to belieue and professe foe Which though I thinke you will saie it were impossible they should make anie such decree yet would I know how you would goe about to proue it Would your not considere what force of feares of hopes were necessarie to induce one of these men to tell such a notorious lye whereby he were to hazard his conscience and reputation for euer and then increase and augment the difficultie by the multitude And farther would you not vrge that there were no such hopes or feares as were able to quell anie one or at least a were necessarie to ouerswaye them all considering that the same hopes or feares could not falle vpon such varietie of estates and humours as all these men were of And knowing certainely anie of these three you would assuredly pronunce the supposed assertion to be false For saie you such a force is necessarie to breake reason in this Congregation but such a force at this present cannot be had and therefore reason at this present cannot be broken in them In which discourse a Mathematician will tell you his demonstrations hang vpoÌ„ the verie same gimalls Wherefore as men cannot ordinarily demonstrate that one bodie cannot bee in two places nor two in one yet are we certaine there is a naturall demoÌ„stration for it and we are by nature assured of it So no doubt but there is a demonstration to him that liueth in London that there is a LondoÌ„ bridge and he is naturally certaine of it though he cannot frame the demonstration by articles and sylogismes as a true philosopher can doe for surely a philosopher if he will take paines may finde a demonstration for both Nephew I hartily thaÌ„ke you for this discourse both for the present subiect wherein you haue contented me beyond my expection as also because me thinke's I conceiue by it that there may be certaine knowledge not only in mathematikes but in all other sciences sithence there is so cleere and efficacious meanes of proceeding euen in morall matters which seeme the most mutable aÌ„d vncertaine of all and where I thought scarcely anie reason was to be expected Vncle. O! coseÌ„ though he was a great man that said Ars longa vita breuis yet he must giue me leaue to be his interpreter for t' is not the length of art but our not taking the right waie which make's it long otherwise art would be but a conuenient solace to our liues Would you thinke that a priuat man following the warres without helpe of others writings by his owne industrie should surpasse the greatest clarkes that haue pored double his time vpon bookes and Monsieur des Cartes this our age hath shewed in a french gentleman yet not only liuing but yong Nephew Me thinke's vncle it were a good worke and necessarie for the Christian world if your self or some other would take the paines to set downe the principles of our faith in forme of demonstration For that I conceiue would take awaie all controuersies and make all ChristiaÌ„s of one beliefe and Religion Vncle. You are a yong maÌ„ and conceiue's not the daiâ—tinesse of the pallates of this age they would not taste such rugged and bitter stuffe nay they caÌ„not disgest anie thing which is not sugered with quaint and pleasont iests Who would reade such a worke Who would haue the patience to studie it to comprehend it and make it his owne This verie discourse which hath passed betwixt you and me is so thornie and full of so manie chained consequences that were it publike few would carrie it away Let vs therefore coÌ„tent our selues to make it knowne to our owne acquaintance to whom vpon occasioÌ„ you may deliuer it by the waie of familiar discourse wherein peraduenture it will sauour better and profit more Nephew I pray leaue me not thus giue me at least some speciall light to answere such obiections as without doubt will be proposed when I shall deliuer your discourse to those who are better red then my self Wherefore least I should disgrace your learned lessons I pray tell me how §. 13 Some cheefe and short obiections may be solued VNcle I can not giue you a better rule theÌ„ to sticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition and not to be easily beaten of by great names and words for if you considere that a Tradition or a point of faith deliuered by tradition is a point vniuersally preached and deliuered by the Apostles and imprinted in the harts of the Christian world And by an vniuersall beliefe and practise continued vnto our days whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the present church in quiet possession of it and whereof no begining is knowne if this I saie you considere and sticke well to this appreheÌ„sioÌ„ you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made against you For you rely vpon the testimonie of the whole ChristiaÌ„ church you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue froÌ„ father to child you rely vpon the promises of Iesus Christ of continuing his church vnto the end of the world And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghost sent to performe it by whom Christ's law was written in Christians harts and so to be continued to the day of doome So that you see no human authoritie by which our Estates and liues are gouerned No proofes of courts or law which neuerthelesse are admitted as Iuges of those affaires which too manie God knowe's esteeme more weightie and important then Religion No consent of historie And in fine if what we haue said be true no demonstration better nor greater nor peraduenture equall On the other side you shall finde all obiectioÌ„s fall of their owne weaknesse As some doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition whereof there is no certaintie nor consent of those who write of it whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apostles or no And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of such tradition as we rely vpon Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion vrge them presently for or against tradition As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors and might not be mistaken in some points as well as the Doctors of the present church T' is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue some times light into the same error Wherefore you must note cosen that the fathers speake some times as witneses of what the church held in their days and some times as Doctors and so t' is often hard to distinguish how they deliuer their opinions because some times they presse scripture or raison as Doctors and some times to confirme a knowne truth So that who seeke's Tradition in the fathers and
the firmenesse of Tradition Nephew You tould me the Tradition of Christian faith was a great while a planting in the harts of men by the force of miracles and that not only in their vnderstandings but also in their wills and affectiōs and so cultiuated vntill the maine of the people were constantly persuaded there was no saluation without it This was done at the same time in manie Countries not knowing one of an other nor being able to correspōde and frame anie draught of beliefe together but euerie one receiuing what was deliuered him from his preacher Vncle. Why now then cosen rerurne to your obiectiōs ād looke how they vrge ād what force they haue against this your declaration of tradition Nephew As for Adam's children I see that one man and one woman were the only witneses of such a thing as the partys to whom they tould it could hardly belieue it was so strange Nay them selues had so litle experience of those strange things which they tould that for anie thing we know they neuer as much as tasted of anie fruit in Paradise but of the forbidden tree And what care they had of anie Religion more thē to recōmēde God's seruice to their children and that only as lōg as they liued with them we know not so that it seeme's what they taught tooke no strong roote nor in manie For Noth the same answere may be giuen two of his sonnes parting shortly from him ether into farr countries or at least into such a distance as that they seldome came to see him Wherefore I perceiue there is a great difference betwixt the deliuerie of Christ's Gospell and of the law of God to those fathers of the old Testament Vncle. Your remarkes are good ones And in deede seeing we haue required that Tradition should haue the continuance of nature We must see that it be plāted accordingly which you haue well noted to haue beene performed in Christ's law but not in the tradition of the ould law the fathers and people of that time being much hindered by the great busines of the world's plantation Euerie mā seeking to plant countries build cities finde out commodities for the cōseruation of man's life Which were occupations farr different from the thoughts of heauen and things of the next world To this you may add that there was not then anie setled orders of Priests and men whose fūctiō should be to inculcate the necessitie of Religion into men's eares and harts which we knowe the Apostles had care to performe euerie where Againe there was no such correspondēce betwixt countrie and countrie in those times as hath euer beene amongst Christians specially by the mediation of a cheefe Bishop which Christ hath set amongst vs. And no doubt but these two last points be two maine and cheefe causes of the propagation and conseruation of Christiā faith You may yet add that euē the points of faith were not then able to worke vpon man's nature so powerfully as since Christ's comming according to our yesternight's discourse So that the roote and strēgth of Tradition being grounded vpon this that such a beliefe is fixed in peoples harts of seuerall natiōs the examples faile in three things First that the multitude was not capable of it it being so spirituall and abstract Secondly that it was not inculcated with that feruour of spirit assistance of the holy Ghost and abundance of continuall miracles as Christ's law was Thirdly that there was not a set forme and institution of Priests and Gouernors to ioyne all nations in communion for the conseruation of their beliefe Wherefore it neuer had the roote and nature of an vniuersall Traditiō And by these examples you may easily answere all other obiections of this nature And now I will leaue you least I should ouer wearie both you and my self Nephew You saie well vncle yet that I may be sure to haue fully cōceiued the maine drift of your instructions I pray let me see if I can make §. 15 The cōclusion of all our discourse IT was first your intention to giue me a rule how to gouerne my self in the choise of Religion Then you concluded that scripture could not be this rule Where vpon you laid me downe two waies how to resolue my self The first was that standing vpon the ground of prepossession there was no likelyhood or probabilitie that the Protestants arguments could be sufficient to ouer ballance the Catholikes because they must be conuincing cleerely or else were to be reiected And that the Protestants should bring anie cōuincing and demōstratiue arguments against the Catholikes there is no apparence Catholikes being more in number in qualitie greater schollers ād in life more vertuous And on the contrarie side Protestants hauing no principles or commāde which may make them agree amongst themselues And you shewd me that though this persuasiō did not euidently conuince the Catholike faith to be true yet did it manifestly proue that the Catholike was to be chosen by an vnlearned man Your second waye was by giuing a direct proofe that the Catholike doctrine is true which you did in threeseuerall manners First by shewing that it was no hard matter for the Catholike church to conserue the truth of hir doctrine if she were carefull which histories plainely shew she was Secondly shewing that nature doth force men to haue care of Religiō and therefore that it was impossible anie error should so creepe into the church as that it should be vniuersally receiued the verie nature of man and human affaires contradicting it's progresse Thirdly shewing how the church now relying vpon Tradition must of necessitie haue euer done so and that if it hath euer done so it could not let anie falsehood creepe in nor suffer anie error to be generally admitted This is all I remember sauing the soluing of some obiections and the discouering of some of my impertinent answeres which I hope you will excuse and forget If I haue missed I pray direct me Vncle. Yo haue taken good notice and I thinke my paines well bestowed only I would intreate you to make a litle reflection and comparison betwixt the knowledge which we haue by these meanes and that which scripture afforde's vs if we handle it in a litigious waye as in cōtrouersies we necessarily must And you shall finde that Tradition is grounded vpon that which all men agree in and vpon that which is common to all ages all nations all conditiōs But the knowledge which we haue by scripture is grounded vpon that which is different in euerie nation Hence spring's an other differēce to wit that the one is planted in nature and in what God created in man the other in what men them selues framed and that not by designe or art but by custome and chance Out of which againe ensueth that the one is capable of necessitie and consequently of a perfect demonstration as all naturall things are the other not The one is fixed vpon vniuersalls the other vagabonde in particulars As for example who is able to demonstrate that a word in controuersie hath no other sense then that which is necessarie for his pourpose Or where the constructiō may be made diuers waies that the true one is that which he pleadeth Who can demonstrate amōgst varieties of texts which was in the Autograph Or that the copies we haue are not defectiue And the like which ordinarily are necessarie if we will euindently conuince our intent out of the place we choose On the other side To shew that whole multitudes of seuerall nations cannot misse in what hath beene a thousand times ouer ād ouer inculcated vnto them That a world cannot conspire to cosen their posteritie That mankinde cannot accepte of a doctrine against an euident principle which they likewise hold and mātaine these being the maximes Tradition depende's on to shew I saie these things there needes no deepe learning being both knowne of them selues and also as necessarily conioint and dependant of man's nature as his other naturall actions be and therefore may beare as good a demonstratiō as they which if we haue not it is not through anie defect or incapacitie of the subiect but through the want of our looking into it and that ether because we doe not take the right waie or that we doe not bestow sufficient paines in the prosecution of it So that in fine although the Roman church had fallen which is impossible into those errors which the Protestants pretēde yet were it better for a man to content him self with the Good that remaines in it then to cast him self into an endlesse and fruitlesse maze of disputations with trouble to all the world ād that to no other effect then to make people vnsetled and by their vnnsetlednesse to neglect Religion But God's wisdome as you see hath prouided an Euidence for those that will take paines to seeke it 1. that the pointes in controuersie are of importance and necessarie to be knowne 2. that they cānot be so knowne by scripture as is requisite for decisions against contentious men and 3. that they may be certainely knowne by resting quiet in the bosome of the Catholike church which God of his mercie giue you and me grace to doe both liuing and dying
this booke there is nothing contrarie or preiudiciall therevnto which no profession that relyeth only vpon scripture can doe because they must first be assured of the text before they can iudge of the doctrine wherefore if the text itselfe neede a iudge and that it is questionable whether this be the true text or no they must needes be at their witts end according to the principles of raison Let vs therefore see what ambiguitie or question falleth vpon the text it selfe by the succession of so manie ages in which it must needes haue beene in some sorte conserued to come to our hands There be three wayes cheefely whereby the text may haue beene corrupted Three Waies haue corruptions come into the Text. The first on sett pourpose as the fathers accuse the Heretickes of their times to haue done and the Iewes also are suspected of the same And this kinde though it extendeth it selfe but to few corruptions yet they come to be ineuitable wheÌ„ amoÌ„gst soe manie copies none can discerne which haue beene so abused which not and as it is but in few pointes or places so it is in such as bee important and materiall ones The second sort of corruptioÌ„s may haue come by the negligence of seruants which copied the Bible some being mercenarie people that made copies to sell others wittlesse people who greedie and desirous to haue the Bible out of vanitie hypocrisie or the like cared not for more then to saie they had it and a great part of these copists may haue erred in writing the Bible by the verie defect of nature which permitteth not an absolut exactnesse in anie thing and causeth a man in his wearinesse nay and in his too much warinesse also to make escapes vnwittingly which be the more dangerous by how much the copies seeme more exact whereby some times the beare downe true copies The third waye of corruption may haue beene by halfe-witted men who will now and then vndertake to correct copies by ayme and vnderstaÌ„ding who for hauing lighted right in some one place will venter confidently to spoile tenne And of these men t' is like before printing began and copies were not so frequent and so a corruption went not farr t' is like I say there hath beene diuers who wheÌ„ they mett with a place they could not make sense of and saw that a litle change would make it sense such rash their would easily vener to make such a smale as they thought mutation not knowing peradueÌ„ture how to come to a better copie then their owne The Hebrew and Greeke Testament haue beene verie subiect to the first sorte of these corruptions the former being deliuered vnto vs by the professed enimies of Christ who as it is reported in the greatest heat of their hatred to Christianitie sate at Tiberias to determine all the vowels of the ould scripture the which euerie Hebritian knoweth what power it gaue them to change the whole text and this to men publickely accused of forgerie in that kinde The Greeke as long as the coÌ„demned Heretickes held so great power in those parts 〈◊〉 is publickely knowne they did for some ages was in litle lesse jeopardie they being also taxed with the like impietie But the other two wayes and meanes of corruptions are common to all and in deede vnauoidable in so great a multitude of copies as were in all the three languages at least of Greeke and latin And now cozen can you tell mee what hazard this must needes breede in the text it selfe that is What vncertaintie the errours §. 5 of writers and copists hath bredd in scripture NEPHEW Nay mary that posseth my vnderstanding for if I should calculate so manie copies to haue beene mâ—de and then estimate what errours may haue escaped in euerie copie the number peraduenture would exceede the words of the Bible For let vs take a boke of 2000. columnes and let vs likewise suppose which is verie likely that as manie copies were made in some age of an hundreth yeare and let vs then put 56. lines to a columne and 6. words to a line and so there will be in one columne 336. Words And farther may wee not well suppose that there was as manie faults escaped in euerie copie one with an other as there bee words in a columne which being supposed you will finde that the number of all the errours escaped in all the copies which haue beene made since the Apostles time will amouÌ„te to 15. or 16. times as manie as there bee words in the Bible Wherefore by this accompte it would be 15. or 16. to one of anie particular place that it were not the true text Which me thinkes cannot be true Vncle. I doe not thinke that you haue taken your proportions too high for if you looke into the most part euen of printed bookes of such a great volume as the Bible is revewe them well and you will finde a whole columne of errata in euerie one and you know printing is donne with more ease and lesse toile to the braine and hath ordinarily 2. or 3. corrections before it be drawne which helps written copies haue not But yet I must tell you that you missed it in one thing you marked not that the errours of so manie copies may haue beene the same in diuers of them otherwise truly your calculation would proue that wee migh looke for scripture in scripture and not finde it and the like with some proportioÌ„ in all bookes I saie with some proportion for to thinke alltogether the like of Cicero Demostenes and others is not reasonable because there were few copies made of them as only for some curious and learned men whereas the Bible concerned euerie man so nearely that few would be with out it that could vnderstand Lattin And yet I doubt not but you remember well inough since you were a student what varietie of texts and pretentions of corruptioÌ„s you found amongst the Critikes and commentaries euen of those prophane authours And to your calculation I will add an other suppose there were as manie written copies extant as the number of your columnes and as much varietie in those which haue not beene examined as in those which haue beene looked into And farther that Sixtus Quintus for the setting out of his Bible caused only an hundred to be examined And that in his Bible the corrections amounte as it is knowne they doe to the nuÌ„ber of two thousand doe you not see that the computation made of the various sections of all those copies would make twentie for euerie coluÌ„ne And truly wee caÌ„not imagine that there hath beene so for ether Latin or Greeke copies And whereas in this computation wee only esteeme them to haue beene but 2000. suppose as it is verie like that there hath beene at least an hundreth thousand in ether language in so manie ages and in so great an extent of readers And those which are not Extant Whereof none in particular can be