vicem reddentes sola fide iustificati sunt dono Dei That is they were iustified freely by his grace They were iustified freely for working nothing neither making any recompence they were iustified thorow only faith by the gift of God Thus farre Saint Ambrose who doeth very often in his expositions vpon that Epistle to the Romanes repeate That we are iustified by faith alone And Saint Basil most worthely named the great sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That is perfect and sounde reioysing in God is this when a man doth not boast of his own righteousnes but knoweth that he wanteth him selfe true righteousnes and that he is iustified by only faith in Christ. And Saint Paul doeth glorie in the contempt of his owne righteousnesse Thus farre Saint Basill And Gregorie Nazianzen saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Confesse Iesus Christ and beleeue that he is risen from death and thou shalt be saued For to beleeue onely is righteousnesse Thus saith Nazianzen surnamed Theologus the deuine for his excellent learning in the scriptures And the same doctrine of iustification by faith alone do many other ancient godly and learned fathers and doctors set downe most plainely in their workes After that these sayings of these ancient doctors were read we said You see that this doctrine and the very words themselues which we doe vse we are iustified by faith onely or faith onely doeth iustifie are not any new inuention of ours but are set downe and pronounced by many ancient and holy fathers of the Church aboue a thousande yeere sithen and more and that being grounded euen vpon the same places of the holy scriptures that we do alleage for our iustification by faith onely Master Campion said but those Doctors and you doe not agree in sense as I said before It is well said we that you cannot denie but that they doe agree with vs in wordes and that they doe gather these wordes euen of the same scriptures which we alleaged for onely faith to iustifie and that therefore these wordes we are iustified freely thorow grace by faith faith without the law without the works of the lawe doeth iustifie which are the wordes of Saint Paul are all one with these words faith only doeth iustifie which was before by you denyed Master Campion said but the trueth of the matter resteth in the sense and meaning of the Doctors What sense is it that you doe speake of said we Master Campion answered We do graunt that it is true that onely Faith doeth iustifie in this sense that is that when we be first brought into the state of grace no good works do go before primam gratiam the first grace or iustification but that our first iustificatiō is by faith only without any works going before but the workes that followe the first grace and iustification said Master Campion doe both iustifie and merite also We alleaged Saint Augustines saying Opera non praecedunt iustificandum sed sequuntur iustificatum Workes doe not preceede a man to be iustified but doe follow him being iustified That is true said Master Campion as I said before of the first grace and iustification but good workes doe goe before the second iustification It is but a small matter said we to graunt y◠no good works doe go before the first grace or iustification when before the same grace there can be no good workes at all And concerning the seconde iustification we replyed to that that Saint Paul speaking of that iustification and alleaging the example and saying of king Dauid therefore sayeth expressely that to a man that doeth beleeue in him that doeth iustifie the wicked his faith is reputed to righteousnes according to the purpose of the grace of God Euen as Dauid setteth downe the blessednesse of a man vnto whome God reputeth righteousnesse without workes Blessed are they whose wickednesse is pardoned and whose sinnes are couered c. Thus sayeth Saint Paul thus sayeth the King and Prophet Dauid teaching plainely that our iustification is by Gods pardoning of our euill workes and not by the merites of our good workes for he saith expressely that iustice is without our workes And S. Paul and King Dauid were in the state of grace when they did thus write and yet doe shew that their iustification then as well as before was without workes Master Campion said a man being in the state of grace may write of the first grace and iustification why not and so did they in that place Yea quoth we but if he be set downe for an example himselfe after that he hath obteined the first grace and continued therein and yet sayth that God reputeth his iustification without any his workes though he haue done many good as Abraham first and then Dauid are here set out for example and as Saint Basill as was before alleaged setteth out Saint Paul himselfe for an example who doeth glorie in the contempt of his owne righteousnesse it is cuident that that iustification or righteousnesse which is before God is without any workes of ours at all and that all iustification of all persons and in all times is by the grace of God through faith onely without any merite of our workes Then they alleaged Saint Iames wordes Faith without charitie is dead making thereby charitie the soule and life of faith Hereunto we made answere that faith without charitie was in deede dead and altogether vaine and vnprofitable But Saint Iames meaning herein was not to make charitie the principall parte or the forme of faith but onely to shewe that by charitie faith is approued and declared to be a true and a liuely faith which we doe most willingly graunt And therewith we alleaged the saying of Thomas de Aquin. being a scholeman of their owne side who saith Deus iustificat effectiuè fides iustificat apprehensiuè opera iustificant declaratiuè That is God doeth iustifie effectually faith doeth iustifie apprehendingly workes doe iustifie declaringly Master Sherwin said it was Fides iustificat instrumentaliter Faith iustifieth instrumentally That worde quoth we doeth make no alteration in sense at all And here you may see howe Saint Paul teaching that we are iustified by faith without workes before God and Saint Iames teaching that we are iustified by workes that is doe declare our selues by our workes vnto men to be iustified do agree Master Campion said that he could yeelde and subscribe vnto that saying of Saint Thomas And we saide that we woulde doe the like for that it is the very true doctrine that we teache howbeit he held his penne from subscribing Then Master Sherwin alleaged these wordes of Saint Paul If I had all faith and haue not charitie I am nothing And he did very vehemently vrge the wordes all faith all faith without charitie is nothing worth Here saith one of the Pamphleters silence was the answere but howe truely let him selfe see for
with error therein and also for that it is in deede a matter of the chiefest controuersie betweene vs. And first for that you doe in your booke vntruely charge Luther and vs by him with the cutting away of Saint Iames epistle for that the wretche as you saie of Luther was by this epistle vanquished and ouerthrowen and for that that epistle doth so manifestly conuince his and our error in this matter of iustification as you do write we do protest that we will neither refuse nor make any exception to that epistle of Saint Iames nor to any other part of the newe Testament which you vntruely haue charged vs to haue cut off from the bodie of the holy scriptures It is well said they that you doe receaue this Epistle of Saint Iames. We haue euer receiued it saide we Howe much the more vntruely haue you charged vs with the contrarie And so entering into the matter we said Whereas you doe charge Luther with him vs all for teaching a newe and false doctrine yea heresie also in that we saie and write that we are iustified by faith onely we say for our defence against this your slaunder that the same doctrine is taught both in many places of the holy scriptures most effectually and is also expressely affirmed and pronounced by the ancient holy fathers and doctors of Christes Church both Greekes and Latines in the verie same wordes that wee do vse Let vs heare your scriptures and doctors sayd they Thē for that we came purposed to examine y◠vntruthes of Campions booke rather then to dispute we did very briefly as our memorie did then serue vs note rather then thorowly alleage many places out of the holy scriptures for the proofe of our iustification by faith and consequently by faith onely to this effect Our sauiour Christ saide we as it is in sundrie places of the Euangelistes recorded saith often Thy faith hath saued thee Onely beleeue beleeue onely They shall receaue remission of their sinnes and inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me As many as beleeue in me to them hath God giuen power to become the sonnes of God Whosoeuer beleeueth in me shall not be condemned shall not perish but haue euerlasting life Thus saith our sauiour Christ c. And Saint Paul saith Beleeue in the Lord Iesus Christ and thou shalt be saued God doeth iustifie thorowe faith Wee are saued by grace thorowe faith We are blessed by faith We are the children of Abraham yea we are the children of God by faith The righteousnes of God by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon vs all that beleeue If thou confesse with the mouth the Lorde Iesus and shalt beleeue in thine heart that God raised him vp from the dead thou shalt be saued For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnes and with the mouth man confesseth vnto saluation We are freely iustified by his grace thorowe faith Then said they we knowe right well that the scriptures doe conteine great commendations of faith but in all these there is not this worde faith onely which is your doctrine But the ancient holy fathers said wee vpon these groundes of the scriptures by vs alleaged doe gather and plainly pronounce that onely faith iustifieth as you shall heare anone And howe many thinges saide we doe you your selfe teach vs as necessarie articles of religion not hauing for you one plaine worde therefore but doe affirme that in effect they are conteined in the holy scriptures And you haue heard that iustification and righteousnes yea saluation and the kingdom of heauen are attributed to faith and that without any addition of any other thing And you haue heard the wordes of our Sauiour beleeue onely only beleeue And of Saint Paul you are freely iustified by faith which are in effect as much as faith onely and to more effect exceedingly then are your proofes of a great many of the principal pointes of your Popish religion And where as we meane none other by faith onely but faith without the workes of the Lawe and without our good workes if the former place can not satisfie you heare what Saint Paul sayeth further Know ye that a man is not iustified by the workes of the Lawe but by the faith of Iesus Christ. The righteousnes of God is made manifest without the Lawe by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon all that beleeue We holde that a man is iustified by faith without the deedes of the Lawe It is one God that iustifieth circumcision by faith and vncircumcision through faith Euery one that beleeueth is absolued from all from the which they could not be absolued by the Lawe of Moses Thus saith Saint Paul and to the like effect in exceeding many places declaring that we are iustified by faith and not by the Law by faith and not by workes which is all one as to say by faith onely No it is not all one sayd they But the ancient doctors of the Church said we do vpon these very places of the holy scriptures by vs alleaged gather and in expresse wordes set downe as we doe that we are iustified by faith onely as ye shall see Saint Hillary quoth we sayeth thus reading his wordes out of the booke it selfe Mouit scribas remissum ab homine peccatum hominem enim tantum in Iesu Christo contuebantur remissum ab eo quod lex laxare non poterat fides en◅m sola iustificat That is to say It moued the scribes that sinne was remitted by man for they behelde man onely in Iesus Christ and that was remitted by him the which the Lawe can not release for faith onely doeth iustifie Thus farre Saint Hilary who as you doe see of this doctrine of Saint Paul by vs alleadged for iustification by faith without the Lawe gathereth and setteth downe the same doctrine in the same wordes that we doe teach that faith onely doeth iustifie But he saith not so in the same sense that you doe saith Master Campion We shall see of the sense anon saide we but we pray you heare the other doctors also who doe agree with vs in the same wordes Saint Ambrose also vpon the place by vs alleaged out of the third to the Romanes among many other sentences hath this Non iustificari hominem apud Deum nisi per fidem That a man is not iustified before God but by faith And shortly after Saint Ambrose saith Tam Gentiles quam Iudeos non aliter quam credentes iustificauit Quia enim vnus Deus est vna ratione omnes iustificauit That is both the Gentiles and the Iewes God hath iustified none other wayes but beleeuing For because there is one God he hath iustified all by one meanes And most plainely vpon the wordes by vs before alleaged he sayeth Iustificati gratis per gratiam ipsius Iustificati sunt gratis quia nihil operantes neque
saith that Christianitie which is the Church is to bee knowen only by the Scriptures He hath these wordes Tantummodoper scripturas nullo modo nulla probatio c. Wherfore thus I frame my argumēt out of Chrysostoms place The Church is to be knowen onely by the Scriptures But visibilitie is not the Scriptures Ergo the Church is not to be knowē by visibilitie Or thus The only note to know the Church by is y◠holy Scriptures Uisibilitie is not the holy Scripturs Ergo visibilitie is not a note to know the Church by Campion Yea out of the Scriptures the Church may bee knowen for the Scriptures appoint visiblenes to bee a marke of the Church But I deny the Minor Fulke Do you say then that visibilitie is the Scripture Campion I say visibilitie is conteined in the Scriptures Fulke My Minor is that visiblenes is not the Scripture so vpon my Maior which is Chrysostomes authoritie I conclude that visiblenes is no marke of the Church Campion I know Chrysostomes place hee denieth not visiblenes to be a note You may go to an other argument Fulke You would not heare Chrysostome by your will but he shal be read by your leaue Tunc cum videritis abominationem desolationis stantem in loco sancto id est cum videritis haeresim impiam quae est exercitus Antichristi stantem in locis sanctis Ecclesiae in illo tempore qui in Iudea sunt fugiant ad montes id est qui sunt in Christianitate conferant se ad scripturas Sicut enim verus Iudeus est Christianus dicente Apostolo non qui in manifesto sed qui in occulto sic vera Iudea Christianitas est cuius nomen intelligitur confessio Montes autem sunt scripturae Apostolorum aut Prophetarum de quibus dictum est Illuminas tu mirabiliter a montibus aeternis Et iterum de ecclesia dicit fundamenta eius in montibus sanctis Et quare iubet in hoc tempore omnes Christianos conferre se ad Scripturas Quia in tempore hoc ex quo obtinuit haeresis illas Ecclesias nulla probatio potest esse verae Christianitatis neque effugium potest esse Christianorum aliud volentium cognoscere fidei veritatem nisi Scripturae diuinae Antea enim multis modis ostendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi quae gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur volentibus cognoscere quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per scripturas c. Then when you shall see the abomination of desolation standing in that holy place that is when you shall see an vngodly heresie which is the army of Antichrist standing in the holy places of the Church in that time they which are in Iury let them flie to the mountaines that is they that are in Christianitie let them get them to the Scriptures For as the true Iewe is a Christian as the Apostle sayeth not which is in open sight but which is in secrete so true Iurie whose name is vnderstood to be confession is Christianitie And the mountaines are the Scripture of the Apostles and Prophets of whome it is sayde Thou doest giue light marueilously from the euerlasting moūtaines And againe he sayeth of the Church Her foundations are in the holy hilles And wherefore doeth he commaunde all Christians in this time to get them to the Scriptures Because in this time since heresie hath obtained those Churches there can be no tryall of true Christianitie neyther can there be any other escape of Christians which woulde knowe the trueth of the faith but the Diuine Scriptures For before times it was shewed by many wayes which was the Church of Christ and which was gentilitie but nowe to them that woulde knowe which is the true Church of Christ it is knowen by none other meanes but onely by the Scriptures This is playne for the Antecedent And these particles are playne Nullo modo cognoscitur It is knowen by no meanes there is no other proofe but tantummodò per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures Campion Master Doctor you knowe the order I deny the consequent you proue the Antecedent Fulke You denied the Antecedent and therefore it was necessary for me to proue it But this place also doeth prooue the Consequence of mine argument which you denyed Let me see howe you can answere to the place All other markes in time of heresie or schisme by Chrysostomes iudgement are excluded but onely the Scriptures Therefore visibilitie also is excluded from being a marke of the Church Campion When the Church was first planted there was miracles by which it might be knowen but nowe they ceasing it is to be knowen sayeth Chrysostome onely by the Scriptures meaning that it is not to be knowen by miracles c. Fulke This answere is a senseles cauil which is easily auoyded For there is an Antithesis or opposition in Chrysostomes wordes howe it was knowen before that is multis modis by many wayes and howe it may be knowen nowe by one onely way tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures For nowe that Antichrist is reuealed he excludeth all wayes except one sayeth it must be knowen onely by the Scriptures Therefore he excludeth visiblenesse as well as miracles from being an inseparable note of the Church Campion It excludeth miracles c. Fulke Well then your answere is that nullo modo nulla probatio tantummodò excludeth nothing but miracles Campion Yea and that appeareth by the wordes Ante tempus Antichristi For whereunto els should nunc and ante be referred except it had meant by ante before the primatiue Church and nunc nowe by the present and instant time Fulke You do but talke you cannot so put away Nulla probatio No proofe Nullo modo by no meane it is knowen but tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures c. He speaketh of all times since heresies haue occupyed the Churches If you wil answere no otherwise I will rest vpon iudgement Campion I haue answered but I would to God I had a notarie well I commit all to God But I pray you note that I say that visibilitie is included in the Scriptures Goade I will examine this cause by a manifest place one of the strongest that is alleadged by those of your side to prooue the visibilitie of the Church namely that out of the 5. of Matthewe A citie that is buylded on a hill can not be hid whereupon they inferre therefore the Church must needes be alwayes visible Campion If it please you though it be commonly alleaged yet it is allegoricall There are many stronger places and you were best take a more pregnant place c. Goade It is alleadged by Hosius and others on your side to this purpose and therefore I chose it notwithstanding if you shunne it and would haue me to omitte it I will Campion No I say there are apter and stronger places neuerthelesse I shunne it not
accidents are not that he spake of Campion This is a booke and yet I see not the substance of a booke but whitenesse and other accidents Fulke Who would say that whitenes is the booke none but a madde man neither will any say that whitenesse is the body of Christ or called the body of Christ. Therefore by the word of heauenly bread and of the Sacrament he meaneth the whole sacrament I see you haue nothing but shamelesse shiftes against so cleare authoritie of your owne Canon law speaking against you Campion If you dare let me shewe Augustine and Chrysostome if you dare Fulke Whatsoeuer you can bring I haue answered already in writing against other of your side and yet if you thinke you can adde any thing put it in writing and I will answere it Campion Prouide me ynke and paper and I will write Fulke I am not to prouide you ynke and paper Campion I meane procure me that I may haue libertie to write Fulke I knowe not for what cause you are restrained of that libertie and therefore I will not take vpon me to procure it Campion Sue to the Queene that I may haue libertie to oppose I haue bene nowe thrise opposed it is reason I should oppose once Fulke I will not become a suter for you Camp Sue to the Queene for me it is but an easie suite you being in such credit with your Prince may if you dare procure this matter Catholikes of their prince can obtaine a greater matter and are not you Protestants in such credit with your Prince that you can obteine so small a matter Fulke We meane not to trie our credit in this matter But if you write any thing I will answere you in writing Campion Procure it Fulke It were to small purpose I haue answered already Heskins and Saunders which are like to bring as much as you Campion I am not worthy to cary their bookes after them And you your selfe Sir may be scholer to either of them Goade If Christ be present in his naturall body he must be present in his true body But Christ is not present in his true body Ergo not in his naturall body Camp I deny your minor He is present in his true body Goade A true body must haue the properties of a true body But this hath not the properties of a true body Ergo it is not a true body Camp I deny againe your minor It hath the properties of a true body Goade AmoÌ„gst the properties of a true body this is one special to be circuÌ„scribed in place not to be in many places at once But in your transubstantiation Christes body is made to be in many yea in infinite places at once Ergo it hath not the properties of a true body Campion It is in respect of a miracle not seene with eye but with our faith Goade Now you runne againe to miracle It hath bene before shewed you out of Augustine that there is no miracle in the Sacrament and your selfe sayd that miracles are now ceased Campion It is a great miracle to conuert a sinner yea greater then to make the worlde and this kinde of miracle is dayly Goade Now you would go from the matter this is not properly a miracle But to the purpose Answere the argument That which is in many places at once is not a true body But as you teach Christ in the Sacrament is bodily in many places at once Ergo not a true body Campion The propertie of the fire is to burne yet the three children in the fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ed Wiâ—… you therâ—…e 〈◊〉 that it was truely fire Goade That was in deede and properly a miracle whereof the Scripture testifieth which visibly was seene Campion So is this a miracle Goade Beside it is not sensible which must be in a miracle There is no ground of the worde for it And faith must be grounded on the worde of God Campion The word teacheth that God is omnipotent Goade You that wil reason from Gods omnipotencie must prooue also his will Omnia quae voluit fecit Hee hath done all things whatsoeuer he would Camp Nay you must proue it is not his will Goade I wil proue it out of Theodoret. Dialo 3. qui inscribitur impatibilis writing of the glorified body of Christ after his resurrection Non est mutatum in naturam diuinitatis sed post resurrectionem est quidem immortale ù corruptione interitu alienum diuina gloria plenum sed tamen corpus est quod habet propriam circumscriptionem The body of Christ is not changed into the nature of his diuinitie but after his resurrection it is in deede a body immortall free from corruption and ful of diuine glory but yet it is a body that hath a proper circumscription Campion When it pleaseth Christ to worke a miracle he is not bound to the natural properties he doth not alwayes practise all his properties His body ascending into heauen had the true properties of a body yet did not then practise them It is against the naturall propertie of a body to ascend vpward Goade This ascention of Christes body being an article of our faith is grounded vpon the worde that his body was taken vp neuerthelesse remayned a true body circumscribed in place Augustine sayth we must not take away the trueth of Christs body Epist. ad Dard. 57. Cauendum ne ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus cui profecto immortalitatem dedit naturam non abstulit Wee must take heede that we doe not so maintayne the Godhead of Christ being man that we take away the trueth of his body whereunto hee gaue immortalitie but tooke not away the nature Campion You neede not bring these places I graunt that Christ hath a true body But you may as well deny the ascension of Christ being against the propertie of a true body to ascend vpwarde Goade I answered before that this is an article of our faith grounded vpon the expresse worde of God And because we do beleeue by the word that Christes body is ascended and sitteth at the right hand of God and from thence shal come to iudge therefore we cannot beleeue the coÌ„trary that Christ is yet present on earth So Augustine reasoneth in the same Epistle Christus Iesus vbique est per id quod Deus in coelo autem per id quod homo Spacia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt Christ iesus is euery where as he is God but as he is man he is in heauen Take away space of places from bodies they shall be in no place and because in no place they shall haue no being at all Campion I thinke I haue answered sufficiently he is present not naturally but miraculously Goade Why then ye destroy the propertie of a true bodie and so consequently take away the trueth of a body Campion I grant the
when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
pray all indifferent readers to consider of these maner of dealings For Saint Augustine in that place writeth against the wicked opiniō of those who mistaking Saint Paules wordes of Iustification by sayth without workes do by an euill securitie neglect to liue well not seeking by true faith the helpe of God to the ouercomming of their owne euill concupiscences but doe despise the workes of righteousnes by a dead faith do promise to them selues euerlasting life These be Saint Augustines expresse wordes in that place truely translated which they haue most vntruely and malitiously alleaged against vs against the heresie as they terme it of iustification by faith onely which they woulde haue the simple people to mistake as though wee woulde exclude all things vniuersally sauing faith onely and did vtterly cast away all care of good workes godly life yea and all desire of Gods grace to assiste vs as did they against whom S. Augustine in that place did write But we protest before God and all good men that we neuer meant to make faith the chiefe and onely cause of our iustification but that the grace and mercie of God by our sauiour Iesus Christ promised to the faithfull in his holy worde is the principall and originall cause and very fountaine of our iustification and that faith not a dead faith as they thought against whome S. Augustine doth write but a liuely faith being wrought in our hearts by the said word of God and by the operation of the holy ghost beleeuing Gods promise of his mercy in Christ is the instrumentall cause in vs whereby onely wee receiue our iustification without the merite of our workes and yet being iustified we are most boundē to walke in all good works as much as it shall please God to giue vs grace thereunto for the which we ought to sue by cōtinuall most heartie prayer Which our doctrine you may see to bee most contrarie to the wicked opinion of those against whom S. Augustine writeth in that place and that therefore it is most falsely and malitiously alleaged as against vs who by faith onely iustifying vs meane not to exclude the doing but the merites of our good workes which is no heresie wherewith these men would charge vs but the very truthe it selfe taught in the holy Scriptures and by the auncient godly fathers and learned doctors set down in the very same wordes which we do vse as hath bene before at large declared Of the conclusion of our conference the Pamphleters write thus At the last the Protestantes did make a doe as though some thing had bene wonne when in my soule I protest there was not but in any indifferent audience the aduerse Protestants had bene quite confounded For Master Campion and Sherwin too would haue sayde much more in defence of their cause but one of them by his Commissioners authoritie suddenly made an ende cutting them off from all further speache Thus they do write In deede when we had continued very long and the sunne shining vpon our faces in at the South windowes and the throng being very greate and by occasion of both the heate so intollerable that some of vs were fayne to go out of the chauncel to take breath and to returne againe and Master Campion and wee being nowe come to a very neare point of agreement in the question of iustification as is afore noted in the end of our conference we turning to Master Lieutenaunt sayde If it shall so please you let vs here make an ende With a good will sayd he and so we brake off And here is all the Commissioners authoritie which they speake of that wee or any of vs did take vpon vs. And thus ended our conference with Campion the iudgement of the trueth of their or our reportes whereof wee doe leaue vnto God and to those who were present thereat Surely we by our notes set downe whiles our cōference was yet fresh in memorie and by sundry conferences amongst our selues sithen and with other also who were there present yea and by diligent perusing of the pamphlets written against vs haue endeuoured to set downe all poyntes that were dealt with in our sayd conference with as much trueth concerning the substance of the matter as our diligence and memory and the remembrance of other also could possibly attayne vnto Alexander Nowell William Daiie ¶ The three last dayes conferences had in the Tower with Edmund Campion Iesuite the 18 23 and 27. of September 1581. collected and faithfully set downe by M. Iohn Feilde student in Diuinitie Nowe perused by the learned men themselues and thought meete to be published Ianuarij 1. 1583. ⧠To the Christian Reader grace and peace THou hast here gentle Reader a true report of the whole substance of the conferences had in the Tower the last three dayes faythfully gathered out of the notes of diuers that wrote there and afterwarde perused by the learned men them selues and nowe lastly published by authoritie If any man be inquisitiue why they were set forth no sooner he may vnderstande that being priuate conferences it was thought not much requisite to make thē publikely knowen neither had they bin now set forth if the importunitie of the aduersaries by their sundry vntrue and contrary reportes made and scattered amongst their fauourites had not euen perforce drawen thē forth If Campions answeres be thought shorter thē they were thou must knowe that he had much wast speach which being impertinent is nowe omitted although I protest nothing is cut off from the weight and substance of the matter for of that I made conscience and had speciall regarde Againe if the repliers speaches seeme to be more ample it is because their authorities then alleadged onely in Greeke or Latine are nowe at large put downe both in Greeke Latine and English But for the arguments and answeres I was euen religious faythfully to reporte them as they were Wherein I appeale to all the hearers in Gods sight to whose grace I commit thee Iohn Feilde ⧠A remembrance of the conference had in the Tower with Edmunde Campion Iesuite by William Fulke and Roger Goade Doctours in Diuinitie the 18. of September 1581. as followeth AFter that Master D. Fulke had made a godly prayer for direction in that action that it woulde please God to confirme the faithfull and to confounde the obstinate and wilfull that Campion denying to pray with them had superstitiously all to be crossed himselfe Master D. Fulke beganne with this preface in effect D. Fulke Where as there hath bene some proceeding with you before and we are come by order to the thirde chapter of your booke where you slaunder our Church of Englande the whole Church of God for the definition of the Catholike Church for that we define it so as it shoulde be inuisible we come to prooue both by the Scriptures and Fathers that it is inuisible But this I woulde haue knowen vnto you that our
Goade That is not to the point though some remained yet they were hidde All being persecuted and put to death that coulde be knowen or founde Campion The time of these persecutions was euen like to our times For then the Christians were exiled put to death driuē into corners as the Catholikes are nowe and yet there remained inough c. and they were knowen Goade Surely you make euill and vntrue conparisons you haue no such cause to complaine of bloody persecutiōs in the time of our gratious Queene and doe not wel to compare her highnes peaceable and milde gouernement with those tyrannical persecutions ye might better liken your crueltie shewed in Queene Maries time to those examples I had thought to haue founde more modestie in you Campion Well let the comparison bee of Q. Maries time then Protestants were put to death yet there remained many Goade The question is not whether they remained but whether they were seen But you said of those Emperours times that there remained many and they were not vnknowen They were vnknowen both to the faithles and faithfull ergo they were altogether vnknowen Campion I deny both partes of the antecedent Goade Then I must proue both distinctly and first touching the faithles The faithles could not knowe the Church therefore they did not knowe it Camp They knew it not by faith but by sense they knewe it Goade Iohn 3. The worlde knoweth not vs because it knoweth not him Campion I tolde you they did not knowe him as they ought to know him to saluation They knewe but not fruitfully and effectually As I knowe you are a Protestant but yet beleeue not your religion And a man that saith Masse is knowen and yet you doe not beleeue in it Goade But though the persons were knowen yet they knewe them not to be of the Church I will come to the other part of the antecedent As is the whole so are the partes But God onely knoweth the whole Ergo he onely knoweth the partes For the members of Christ are knowen to Christ alone By reason of many hypocrites men are not able to iudge who are truely faithfull There are many wolues within and many sheepe without Deus nouit qui sunt sui 2. Tim. 2. God knoweth who are his therefore the true members of Christ can not be knowen but to God alone Campion I knowe not who is elect but I knowe who is a Catholike I knowe not whether the Bishop of Rome bee elect or no c. Goade Onely the elect are of the Church whereof Christ is the head Camp I say that both good euill are of the visible Church Goade Christ hath no dead members of his body therefore the reprobate can not bee of the Church I will helpe you with a distinction They may be in the Church but not of the Church Campion The distinction is Caluins and therefore I refuse it But you answere your selfe for euill men may be viua membra Christi the liuely members of Christ in respect of faith but not in respect of charitie A man may be a member of the body of Christ as it is here in earth being a wicked man but onely the godly are members of his body as it is in heauen Your own argument doth confound you It is impossible to knowe the elect therefore it is impossible the Church should be inuisible Goade It is your parte to answere not to oppose you vse many words graunt absurdities Your argumēt doth not folow Campion You cannot know any particular man to be elect you cannot pronounce it of your selfe therefore you cannot measure the Church by election then it remaineth the Church must be visible because it must be knowen Goade To be elect or true members of Christ is one thing to be in the visible Church is another Campion This was Wickliefes error that onely the electe were true members of the Church but as I haue sayde no man can knowe who is elect and therefore you teache that no man can knowe a member of the Church nor no man can knowe that he shall be saued Goade Particular electiō is not so vnknowen as you would make it for a man may haue knowledge of his owne election by vndoubted testimonies and see the signes of election in others Fulke You saide before that visibilitie was an inseparable qualitie of the Church whereupon I reason thus If it be an inseparable qualitie it is an inseparable note But it is not an inseparable note Ergo not an inseparable qualitie Campion I deny both the Maior and the Minor both may be doubted of Fulke I will proue both Campion Giue me leaue A note is more then a qualitie The qualitie is to goe right to goe the neerest and gainest way the safest way A note is a marke that may be remoued that teacheth to turne on the right hand or on the lefte by this crosse or by that windmill or marke c. Fulke I graunt there is a difference betweene a note and a qualitie and you needed not so many wordes to haue shewed that but I speake of an inseparable note and an inseparable qualitie That qualitie which is inseparable being also a note must needes be an inseparable note Also of that your selfe haue saide that it is an essentiall qualitie I will proue the Maior Whatsoeuer marke is of the essence or nature is inseparable The visiblenes is a marke which is of the essence and nature of the Church Therefore it is an inseparable marke Campion It is an inseparable qualitie but not an inseparable note but after a sorte for a qualitie must euermore stande but a marke may be taken away Fulke The question is whether it be an inseparable note of the Church that cannot be taken away Campion I say it may be in a sense Fulke I know not what sense you speake of but this is euident by your owne confession the visiblenes of the Church is a marke and it is of the nature Ergo it is inseparable so my Maior is plaine Campion Proue your Minor Fulke There was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church ergo it is not an inseparable note Campion I deny the Antecedent Fulke There was a time when the Church was only knowē by the Scriptures therefore there was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church Campion I deny both the Antecedent and the consequent Fulke I will proue both and first the Antecedent Cam. Nay proue the consequent first then the antecedēt Fulke Why the other is first both in order and nature Campion Nay Whensoeuer the consequent is denied you must straight proue the argument Fulke That is if the consequent onely be denied but seeing you deny both I will first proue that which in nature order is first and afterward I will proue the other if it neede It is but a sory shift of you to decline from the point of the question Chrysostome
but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y◠who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes
can not be suffered to exercise this medicine of holsome discipline Camp The disease is continuall ergo the remedy is continual I must tell my Prelates where shal I tel theÌ„ if they be not Goade The remedy is continually necessary holsome but can not coÌ„tinually be vsed Diuers most necessary things are not alwayes in vse It is most necessary the Gospel should be coÌ„tinually preached it is Christes commandement yet this oftentime fayleth as in persecution wheÌ„ the church is driuen into streights and the publique exercise of the worde restrained I deny your argument It is alwayes necessary therefore it is alwayes in vse and practise Many other necessary thinges are wanting many times that ought to be and yet this taketh them not away neither maketh them vayne or vnnecessary c. Campion The disease is common it is perpetual To whom shoulde I haue gone before Luthers time What Prelats should I haue made my complaint vnto in those dayes I must tell my Pastor c. Goade You are answered that in times of persecution this coulde not be and specially in those times of generall Apostacie foretolde by the Apostle 2. Thess. 2. this could not be practised no more then the true preaching of the worde You deale straungely with vs. When you had shut vs in prison embrewed your handes with our blood driueÌ„ the true Church as it were into the wildernesse through your grieuous persecutions and tyrannies so as there coulde be no meetings for publike exercise of religion then you aske where was our Church and to whome we shoulde haue gone before Luthers times Campion Where was your Church for 900. yeeres agoe Whose were Iohn Husse Hierome of Prage the Waldenses c. Were they yours Helpe him Master Doctor Fulke It needeth not this is beside the matter your place is answered The remedy is not ydle or vayne though sometimes men are restrayned from the vse of it Cyprian complayneth aboue 1200. yeeres agoe that for the great persecution that was against the Church they could not meete so often as they desired to execute discipline and yet who will deny but the discipline of the Church is perpetuall It must be vsed when it may bee had A medicine is not an idle medicine in the Apothecaries shoppe nor Galens prescription thereof is vayne because sometimes it can not be had Campion Though of some at sometimes it cannot be had in one place yet it may be had in another There may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it but if I wil seeke it I may finde it Fulke The words are spoken generally to euery man Si peccauerit aduersusâ—…te frater If thy brother offend against thee c and yet euery man can not obteyne it You that are in prison what Church can you tell if you bee offended will you say the remedy is vayne because you can not vse it Againe there are meane remedies before a man come to this that he should tell the Church hee must first giue priuate admonition and before witnesses which euery man can not do that is offended As to whom shoulde Elias haue complayned when hee knewe none but himselfe Therefore it is no more necessary that there should be a visible Church alwayes to complayne vnto then it is necessary that euery man should alwayes bee able to admonish priuately or to haue two or three witnesses to call vnto him Againe you aunswere your selfe that there may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it Therefore it was very yll concluded of you that if a man can not alwayes haue a visible Church to make his complaynt vnto the remedie prescribed by our Sauiour Christ is vayne or idle And concerning the name Ecclesia in that text when it is sayde we should tell the Church ye abuse the audience for it meaneth not the whole Church but the consistorie and eldershippe that haue the gouernement of euery particular congregation For howe can a man tell the whole Church on earth or yet the whole parish where he dwelleth but he may tell the company of Elders and gouernors when such are established to haue the execution of discipline and this also may be interrupted by persecution Campion Master Doctor you haue sayde well for mee the worde Ecclesia is taken for the gouernours of the Church and they are alwayes in sight In what place of the Scripture is the worde Ecclesia taken for an inuisible Church you can shewe mee no place Shewe mee one place shewe mee one place if you can Fulke I can shew you a great many But because you call so earnestly for one I will shew you one It is taken for the whole body of the Church therefore for an inuisible church in the first chapter to the Ephesians in the latter ende where the Apostle sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And he appoynted him head ouer all thinges vnto his Church which is his body and the fulnes of him which filleth all in all So that it is taken for the whole Catholike Church as it containeth all the elect of God those that haue bene are and shal be c. which vniuersall Church is inuisible Campion I graunt it is there taken for the Church triumphant and militant Fulke Ergo it is there taken for an inuisible Church For we speake of it as it conteyneth euery member and is the whole body of Christ whereof some are yet vnborne Campion I graunt it of the whole but the Church militant is visible the other inuisible Fulke But the Catholike Church of Christ being the body of Christ is mysticall ergo insensible Campion Prooue it according to all partes to bee inuisible Fulke It is sufficient for mee to prooue that the Catholike Church which is the whole body of Christ is mystical therfore it is inuisible I speake of the Catholike Church as it is an article of faith For wee beleeue the Catholike Church according to the articles of faith Nowe fayth is of things which are not seene ergo the Catholike Church is inuisible Campion I knowe that the whole Catholike Church and euery part of the same as it is of faith is inuisible but what is this to the Church militant Fulke You vrged me to shewe a place where the word Ecclesia is taken for an inuisible Church and I haue shewed you that it is taken for an inuisible Church wheresoeuer it is taken for the Catholike Church which you confesse to be inuisible both in the whole and euery part Campion So farre as it is of faith Fulke And we speake of it as it is of faith For the whole Catholike Church being an article of fayth is considered no otherwise then as it is of faith neither any part thereof by your owne confession whereof it followeth that the visible Church for which you striue so much is no article of our faith because it is seen
Christ. Goad It is no sporting matter we are in earnest and about weightie matters Fulk These speaches may become a Iesuite but are not semely for a Christian. This is like your iugling tricke the other daye which ye said belike Christ did play Goade I will now come to examine the ground whereupon ye would build your transubstantiation and I reason thus If the bread and wine be transubstantiate then it is grounded vpon some part of the Scripture But it is grounded vpon no part thereof Ergo the bread and wine are not transubstantiat Camp I deny your Minor it is grounded vpon some part Goad If vpon any then vpon the wordes of the institution This is my body But not vpon those wordes Ergo vpon no part of Scripture Camp I deny your Minor It is grod̄ed manifestly vpon those wordes of Christ. Goad If vpō this place then vpon the true sense of the wordes But not vpon the true sense Ergo not vpon this place Camp It is groūded both vpon the words the true sense also Goad If vpon the true sense thē it is a plaine a proper speach But it is not a proper speache Ergo not vpon the true sense Camp It is a proper speache Goad It is a figuratiue speache Ergo not a proper Camp So farre forth as it is figuratiue it is not proper It may be figuratiue and proper both Goad This is straunge but ye shall heare the iudgement of y◠fathers that it is merely figuratiue Augustine epist. 23. in y◠wordes before alleaged maketh it a Metonimical speache when by reason of the neere similitude the name of the thing it self is attributed to the signe which he saith is vsual in sacraments So Circumcision is called the Lordes couenant So the Pascall lambe is called y◠passeouer The same Augustine vpon the 3. Psalme Christi mirāda patientia adhibuit Iudam ad cōuiuium in quo corporis sanguinis sui figuram discipulis tradidit The great patience of Christ receaued Iudas vnto his feast wherein he gaue a figure of his bodie and blood vnto his disciples Camp Wherfore bring ye this it is from the matter in questiō we spake euen nowe of proper speaches this is not a proper argument to the matter Goad I am come to this point orderly to proue the speache to be figuratiue and not proper and now ye see your selfe brought in some streightes ye would drawe me back againe but answere out place of Tertullian against Marcion lib. 4. Which doth notably expound the wordes of the Institution to be figuratiuely spoken Camp We shall then go to the forenoones question Goade No It serueth for the point wee are now come vnto being verie weightie to expounde the wordes of the Institution This is my body Wherupon ye would build your transubstantiation Belike you feare the place of Tertulliā are loth to come to it Camp I feare not let vs heare it we lacke a moderator Goad I would we had one wee shoulde then dispute more orderly The wordes are Christus acceptum panem distributum discipulis suis corpus suūillud fecit hoc est corpus meū dicendo id est figura corporis mei figura autem nō fuisset nisi veritatis esset corpus The bread which Christ tooke gaue to his disciples he made his body saying this is my body that is a figure of my body but it could not haue bene a figure vnlesse Christ had a true body Camp I answere your place of Tertullian two wayes First for the vnderstanding of the people and after in respect of the learned For the people thus He had to do with the heretique Marcion who denied that Christ had a true body Tertullian proueth that Christ had a true body because hee gaue a true body to his disciples saying this is my body The wordes that follow Id est figura corporis mei are not Tertullians but are added by the Heretique who would haue Christ to haue had but a figure or shew of a body and not a true body Tertullian saith to the heretique Christ saith this is my body thou saiest a figure admit it were a figure yet it must be a figure of a true bodie Goade You shew your selfe ignorant in this place of Tertull. which is a knowen familiar place the whole wordes are Tertullians nothing at all here added by the heretique Marcion both the wordes sense of Tertullian is plaine consider better of them Camp Tertullian tooke vpon him the person of the heretique maketh the obiectiō which he thought y◠heretike would obiect Goad You are greatly deceaued in this place of Tertullian who reasoneth thus against Marcion very substantially to proue that Christ had a true not a phantasticall body as Marcion supposed That must needes haue a true body whereof there is a figure But Christ in the Institution of his supper gaue a figure of his body when he said This is my body that is a figure of my body Ergo Christ hath a true body This is Tertulliās reason as it appeareth in the next clause Figura autē nō esset nisiver it at is esset corpus But there could not be a figure of a body except it had relation vnto a true body And in the next words following yet more plainely Caeterum vacuares quod est phātasma figuram capere non potest But an empty or vaine thing such as is a phātasme can not be capable of a figure Take the booae and peruse this place ye shall finde it to be as I haue opened the minde of Tertullian Campion I know the place I made one answere before in respect of the people nowe mine other answere is for the learned that Tertullian vseth to alleage many harde and obscure places and figures out of the olde testament hee must be read with iudgement and great diligence the wordes Idest figura are not in way of exposition but of obiection Goade You shew your skill in the fathers This is not Tertullians exposition onely but also Augustines vpon the thirde Psalme before alleaged and Tom. 6. against Adamantus Non dubitauit Dominus dicere hoc est corpus meū quum signū daret corporis sui The Lord doubted not to say this is my body when hee gaue a figure of his body Camp Then belike ye woulde altogether exclude from the sacrament Christ the substance making him altogether absent allowing onely of a bare signe in the sacrament Goad The wordes are Augustines that Christ gaue a signe of his bodie Howebeit wee exclude not the substance which is Christ him selfe who together with the signe is receiued by faith of the godly and so we make not a bare signe but we say he is not vpon earth touching his body included in the sacrament Campion It is well knowen to the learned that the signe excludeth not the thing signified Goade I graunt neither do I exclude the thing It is
booke of Wisedome Ecclesiasticus Maccabees c. which your Councill of Trent thrust in as authenticall But to leaue that it is plaine that Cyprian vpō the Creede omitteth al that Apocrypha hauing rehearsed those which be Canonicall he sayth Haec sunt quae patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alii libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt vt est Sapientia Salomonis Ecclesiasticus libellus Tobiae Iudith Machabaeorum libri quae omnia in ecclesijs legi voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex ijs fidei confirmandam These are those thinges which the fathers shut within the Canon by which they would haue the assertions of our fayth to stande Notwithstanding we must know that there are other bookes also which of our Elders were called Ecclesiast and not Canonicall as Salomons booke of Wisd. Ecclus. the bookes of Tobias Iudeth the Macca all which they would haue read in the Church and yet not brought forth to confirme the authoritie of fayth out of them Camp He is called cōmonly Author expositionis in Symbolum and therefore doubtfull whether it were Cyprian or no but admit it were I answere to these and all such like places that when particular Fathers particular Councils doe recken vp such such books omit others that either were receiued there or in other places sithens they recken vp such as were thē come to their knowledge and such as were approued in that part of the worlde where they thē liued But it followeth not they reckened no more Ergo there were no more They doubted therefore we must acknowledge no more For the Church hath since put them out of doubt Walker You answere not but trifle For those are not onely omitted and left vnreckoned but they are set downe for Apocrypha or Ecclesiastici so certaynely named and not Canonical Camp Some might bee set downe then as doubtfull that nowe are out of doubt because they are receiued Charke Hitherto you haue gone from the matter wherein I haue bene willing to followe you a little to cleare the poynt that then was in hande when I began with you Nowe let vs come to the questions agreed of betweene vs. Camp Nay let vs first speake of the authoritie of the Scripture then if you will of the sufficiencie Charke Of the authoritie we haue spoken alreadie and it is not within our question which is onely of sufficiencie Camp I deferre to the scriptures all authoritie and all sufficiencie therefore you haue nothing against me Charke Yes I haue this against you that you doe not thinke the scriptures onely and alone sufficient to all doctrine of fayth and maners For whatsoeuer you say we knowe you holde and teache the contrary namely that all things are not set downe and written in the worde This other day you were still calling for Syllogismes and when you had receiued a blowe and stoode astonied vnder it yet you cryed out a Syllogisme a Syllogisme to make men beleeue that you were not touched Now you shal haue Syllogismes answere to them directly and shortly Thus I proue the sufficiencie of the scripture without traditions What the Apostles taught viua voce by liuely voyce that also they wrote But they taught viua voce whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Therefore they wrote also whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Camp Nego argumentum I deny the Argument Charke It is a Syllogisme you woulde haue denied my Maior I thinke Camp Proue your Maior then Charke What care they had ouer the Churches present the same care they had ouer the Churches to come afterwarde But their care ouer the Churches present was to open to them all the counsell of God Therefore they left the like prouision in writing to al posterity that they might be instructed in all the counsell of God Camp I answere to the Maior They had the same care but in such sort as it was expedient It was not expedient that they shoulde write all and euery sillable that they spake and yet notwithstanding they disclosed all the counsell of God either in speciall or generall words written Charke Uery wel then we are come to the issue of the matter and you graunt the question that all doctrine both concerning faith and maners is either in speciall or generall words conteined in the Scripture Camp I agree But heare mine answere out of S. Augustine against Crestonius Where it can not be aduouched in scripture by speciall words that the baptisme of heretikes is good yet it is deliuered in the scripture by generall wordes forasmuch as the scripture doeth command vs to obey the Church which hath allowed this baptisme being conferred in forma Ecclesiae So the doctrines not particularly discoursed in scriptures are yet conteyned in these wordes Obey your prelates The Church is the pillar and supporter of trueth And if he heare not the Church let him be to thee an Ethnike and Publicane Charke You say particular matters are conteined in those general words Obey your Prelates Do you meane that we must obey them in causes not conteined in the word Then you may binde vs to what you list and disalowe what yee please Therefore syr that I may seeke your corners and finde you out what meane you by this when you say that Generall commandementes allowe particular traditions Camp I named not traditions Charke But it is the effect and scope of your speache for obedience to your Church Prelates in matters not expressed in the Scriptures Camp I saye there be poyntes wherein wee accorde with you as the baptisme of heretiques the baptisme of infantes the holy ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne that baptisme is a Sacrament and Preaching is none being both commaunded at one time that the Eucharist is a Sacrament and washing of feete none being commanded at one time and such like c. Charke To say that the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not expressed in the scripture is a blasphemous speach Camp Shewe me any sentence expressing it in the scripture Charke It sufficeth to shewe it inferred in the scripture by good proofes of consequence implication But what say you to traditions decrees and such like which the Church of Rome maintayneth as the very word it selfe Let vs speake of them being now in question and not breake out into newe matters not in controuersie Camp I will not go from my question Charke You shall come to it if you take vpon you the defence of your traditions which I disproue in this maner If the Apostles left nothing vnwritten that is necessarie to saluation the scriptures are sufficient But the Apostles haue left nothing vnwritten necessarie to saluation Therefore the scriptures are sufficient Camp I graūt it as before referring it to that
Church supposing alwayes a true Church I pray you of what Church are you Charke We talke of the true Church and therefore this question is needles Are we to obey any thing contrary to the worde of God You can imagine nothing left to the Church that is not manifestly conteyned in the scripture Camp Call you manifestly particularly Charke To what purpose is that question I must bring you to a Syllogisme lest you auoyde disputation by digressing into other matter If any thing be left obscure or not fully handled by the Apostles it was either because the Apostles could not or because they would not write manifestly and fully But it is a blasphemie to say they could not and it is false to say they would not Therefore they haue written all manifestly and fully Here Campion repeated the Argument and then sayd thus Camp I answere to the word manifestly either in generall or particular termes manifest and this the Apostles both could and would For this is manifest enough Beleeue the Church but it is not particular Charke While we dispute of the manifest and full contents of the scripture leaue to choppe in the needles terme Particular manifest generals include particulars And where I pray you are we commaunded to beleeue the Church in matters not contained in the written worde By this vncerteine rule you may warrant all former traditions and bring in any newe absurdities Camp That is not the question Charke But it is a necessary note for the confutation of your answeres and doctrine of vnwritten verities Therefore I thus proue against you To leaue a doore open to any chaungeable or doubtfull traditions is not to teache things manifest enough in the scriptures But to send vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written word is to leaue a dore open to chaungeable and doubtfull traditions Therefore to sende vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written worde is not to teach thinges manifest enough in the scriptures Camp To leaue a doore to traditions which the holy ghost may deliuer to the true Church is both manifest and seene as the baptisme of Infants the holy ghost proceeding from father and sonne and such other things mentioned which are deliuered by tradition Proue these directly by the scripture Charke Which proposition in the Syllogisme doe you deny Camp Proue the baptisme of children and the proceeding of the holy Ghost not to be traditions Charke I maruayle you thus auoyde the Syllogisme and what you meane to match doctrines contained in the word of God with vnwritten and vncerteyne traditions of men It is plaine that the baptisme of children is proued by the analogie of Circumcision with baptisme childrē being circumcised the eight day Also by that the Sacraments of the old Testament are the same with the Sacraments of the newe The proceeding of the holy ghost is euidently proued by this that our Sauiour promiseth to send the holy Ghost Camp Proue the proceeding of the holy ghost Ex parte filii That is on the sonnes part For that is the point Charke It is proued by my former words and where Christ breathed vpon his disciples and said Receiue the holy ghost Camp Well leaue that talke of baptisme which this company vnderstandeth better Suppose that I am an Anabaptiste And y◠Anabaptist denieth this argument because children should not be baptized till the eight day and the scripture willeth them to be baptised that beleeue so that first they must haue Faith or els they may not be baptized Charke I reply to you that Infidels of age to vnderstand and beleeue must beleeue before they be baptised and admitted to the Church but the children of beleeuers being the seede of the faithfull they may receiue the seale of the couenant of God made to the Fathers and to their seede according to that of the Apostle If the first fruites be holy the lumpe also If the roote be holy the branches also are holy But to the question Notwithstanding the scriptures be the only rule triall of all questions in religion and do fully proue the matter in hand yet because you wil not be cōtented without them answere a place or two out of the Doctors Eusebius lib. 3. cap 35. of his ecclesiasticall storie writeth that Ignatius being caried prisoner to Rome did exhort the Churches to cleaue vnseparably to the tradition that is to the deliuered doctrine of the Apostles which for safetie it was necessarie to put downe in writing that we might not depart frō it Which excludeth the generall bringing in of vnwritten verities vnder the colour of that text Obey your prelates Camp Reade the place Charke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In English thus He exhorted the Churches to cleaue vnseparablie to the traditition of the Apostles which he supposed and testified nowe for safeties sake necessarily to haue bene set downe euen in writing Camp What word doe you inferre Tradition I graunt is not alwayes taken for vnwritten veritie This place maketh for those traditions which were not then written Ignatius was S. Iohns scholler and he was Oculatus testis An eye witnesse of things that were not then written but went from hand to hande and therefore he thought it necessarie to leaue in writing such trueth as he had heard and was not written before For the Gospels were not then written Ignatius wrote no Gospell and the text noteth that the things whereof he spake were such as himselfe wrote Charke You mistake the meaning of the place For Ignatius spake not of your doubtfull and multiplied traditions but of the certayne Tradition that is of the deliuered and written doctrine of the Apostles to the which we must cleaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is so stedfastly that no force no arte may cut vs off or withdrawe vs from it no not an Angell from heauen much lesse any mortall man howsoeuer magnified with the high titles of Popedome or Prelacie or Apostolicall authoritie Walker You haue graunted that all things are written in the worde and that such traditions as can not manifestly be gathered out of the Canonicall Scriptures are not to be receaued Thereupon I reason thus The same that the Apostles wrote the same they deliuered in tradition But they haue written and deliuered the same things that they read in the Canonicall scripture Ergo their writings and traditions be all one and the same Camp The same that is to say nothing contrarie Walker The same and no other is needefull to saluation Heare the Apostles wordes 1. Cor. 4. Hac de causamisi vobis Timotheum qui est filius meus dilectus fidelis in domino qui vobis in memoriā reducet vias meas quae sunt in Christo quemadmodum in omni ecclesia doceo Who is my beloued sonne and faithful in the Lord who will put you in minde of my wayes which are in the Lorde euen as
blasphemies for euen as Lucifer by pride woulde haue made him selfe equall with God so this Lucifers vicar in earth woulde by a Luciferian pride make his worde Canons and writings equall with the Maiestie of Gods worde and the Canonicall Scriptures Matt. 18. Act. 15. Miser Confossus diruptus Matth. 9. Mark 5. 10. Luk. 7. 8. 12. 18. Act. 26. 18. Iohn 1. 12. Iohn 3. 16. Act. 16. 31. Galat. 3. 8. Ephes. 2. 8. Rom. 4. Rom. 3. 22. Rom. 3. 24. Galat. 2. 16. Rom. 3. 21. 22 28. 30. Act. 13. D. Hillarius in Matth. cap. 8. Faith onely doeth iustifie Rom. 3. D. Ambrosâ—…in cap. 4. 9. ad Rom. Basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gregor Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Aâ—…an in Galat 3. Chrisâ—…st in Hom. 2. in Rom. Origen in Rom. cap. 3. August de fide operibus Rom. 4. Psalm 32. D. Basil. de Humilitate 1. Cor. 13. Mat. 7. 22. 23. Galat. 5. Ephe Ephe. 2. 8 9. Apoc. 22. The pamphleters do say that we refused to subscribe not shewing M. Campions addition of merites Matth. 10. 1. Corinth 1. 29 30 31. Ephe. 2. 8 9. Rom. 3. 27. Rom. 4. 2. Mark 16. Both Basill Nazianzen were offred but it was Nazianzen not Basill as they report August De fide operibus Here was speache that nothing was meant by the noting but a priuate matter to preuent false reports And this he spake with great iolitie scoffingly Here was much a do about writing yet I neuer knewe any thing imprinted that might preiudice him 1. Argument Here the wordes of the text were read Bolde asseâ—…â—…rations Tobias was of another time for it was froÌ„ the dayes of Achab vnto Salmanazar 140. yeeres at the least Campion â—…greeth not with others of his owne side 2. Argument Pillars were erected in euery place with this blasphemous inscription superstitione Christi vbiq deleta c. The Papistes call iustice for treason persecution for religion Strange Diuinitie The third argument Homil. in Math. 24. There is no other proofe there is none other way to knowe the Church or true Christianitie but only by the Scripture 4. Argument Camp ratione secunda Hanc peruestigemus ex verbis adiacentibus voces clausulâ—… tota connexio Absurditie ergo preceptes giuen to the M. his calling are giuen to the familie Here M. D. Goade was turning for Chrys. vpon this place and he willed that it might be shewed at the next meeting Ad nauseam â—…sque Here Camp after his bold maner did insolently insult by these vaine questions The discipline of the Church perpetuall necessary though it be not alwayes had put in practise Therefore it is not alwayes visible Ephes. 1. Absurde The commandement in the institution bindeth Christians to receiue the cup. And Paul saith 1. Cor. 11. That which I receiued of the Lord wherby he teacheth that he had a commandement Absurde Who can dispute with him that denieth the groundes of disputation This discontented others also that stood by They may be reconed borne within the couenant but they are not his children if they be not elected thogh we iudge theÌ„ not because their not being elected doth not appeare vnto vs The second argument Here was promise that the place should be shewed Here there was a litle whispering amonges the company as if it had bene a soft hissing Scripture most absurdly applyed Campions absurdities 3. Argument And yet who knoweth not that generall CouÌ„cils haue bene contrary one directly against another Here the Papists in a libell brought out of LaÌ„cashire do report this far otherwise as they do all the rest but none truely they that were present can tell 4. Argument Here for lacke of the booke present it was referred to the shewing of the place afterward Absurde For there is as great necessitie of the one Sacrament as the other The Greke testament being reached vnto him he refused to reade it in the Greeke All this is but a vaine brag for his sight in Greke was very litle or none at all as may appeare in the first dayes conference here al so and afterwards ArgumeÌ„t 5. Here CampioÌ„ interrupted him saying there was no such place made much a doe Augustins argument Here the booke was promised to be brought the place to be shewed 6. ArgumeÌ„t Here it was promised that it should be shewed The seueÌ„th argument This D. Fulke read out of his note booke Concilior Tom. primo de ord celeb concilii ArgumeÌ„t 8. 9. Argument Ad Dard. Epist. 57. A fancie in philosophie Here it appeared that many were offended with the indignitie thereof The questions Here M. Lieutenaunt was content that any learned man present might moderate but none would take it vpon them Concil To. 3. fol. 139. ArgumeÌ„t 1. 2. Argument Some of these wordes were then omitted not read for breuitie sake 3. Argument 4. Argument 5. ArgumeÌ„t Here D. Fulke was admonished to rehearse the place in English that the people might vnderstande 6. ArgumeÌ„t ArgumeÌ„t 7. 8. Argument 9. Argument Here M. Lieutenant admonished them that the time was past 10. Argument 12. Augument The question 1. ArgumeÌ„t 2. ArgumeÌ„t 3. Argument 4. Argum ArgumeÌ„t 5. 6. ArgumeÌ„t Gene. 17. Exod. 12. Absurde Substance must be in a certaine vacaunt or voyd emptines and yet forsooth in quantitie and qualitie 8. ArgumeÌ„t ArgumeÌ„t 9. 10. Argument 12. Argument 2. Pet. 2. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Thes. 2. The questioÌ„â—… A prouerbial speach signifying thus much If you take any pleasure in speaking euill you shall lose it in hearing euill 1. Argument 1. Argum. Ignorance of the storie 〈◊〉 Pet. 1. 21. Here was a coÌ„mon good liking of this way Campion did often adde alter his answeres while they were in writing Before he desired it now being straightned he disliketh it and counteth it losse of time The aduersary against himselfe and yet turned from all his shifts In English If so be I haue done wel as agreeth with a storie this I do desire if not so worthily it must be pardoned in me Iudith 10. 3. 4. Iudith 10. vers 12 13. 11. 19. and 12. 14. Iud. 9. vers 10. Let him be taken with the snare of his eyes set on me and smite him with the lippes of my loue Turne my speach into fraude By Campionâ—… doctrine no practise is vnlawfull so it be for the deliuerie of their Church Rom. 3. 8. Moreouer Iudith doth praise that act which the holy ghost doth flatly coÌ„demn vide Iud. 9. 2. gen 49. 5. c. Iob. 13. 7. Camp knoweth not his owne translation Arg. prim prouing that the scriptures coÌ„teine sufficient doctrine to saluation In the forme or maner of the Church Arg. 2. Rom. 4. 11. Colos. 2. 11 12. Gen. 17. 12. 1. Cor. 10. 1. Luke 22. 49. Ioh. 15. 26. Iohn 2. 22. Campion was readier to moue 2 newe matters then to answere one argument Rom. 11. 6. If the Apostles proued all by Scripture as Campion graunteth why should not all others doe the like Iohn 5. 46. 〈◊〉 Argum. By Campions owne answere the Apostle speaketh of faith onely Here againe it appeareth by his answere that the Apostle teacheth faith onely Nothing to the matter 1 2 The very worde 3. Argum. Exformula Gal. 3. 11. 12 Gal. 3. 12. ArgumeÌ„t 4. Canisius in Caâ—…ech Payu Andr. lib. 9. Orthodox Expl. Matth. 11. 19. Luke 7. 29. Arg. 4. Arg. 5. Arg. 6. To trifle and shift by childish words In facte and deede
and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued