in the Church it should have this weight with us that rashly without grave and diligent enquiry after the truth it should not be rejected by us And whereas it is alleadged there will be no effectual way against Controversies and divisions in religion unlesse some one supream and infallible judge be appointed on Earth in whose â—udgement and decision parties controverting should â—â—st and acquiesce It may be well answered in your own Bellarmin his wordes lib. 2. de Concil cap. 19. It is no wonder if the Church remaine without any humane remedy seeing the welfare of it doth not primarily rely upon humane industrie but upon divine protection seeing its King is GOD therefore may and ought the Church to pray unto God and it is certaine he will care for the well-fare of it Answer second Albeit I cannot comprehend the purpose of this laxe discourse yet Pro. Duply 2 for satisfaction to the Reader I shal inform him in these 5. particulars First what Papists mean by the Church or whither they understand themselves in this Secondly Whither Church officers since the dayes of the Apostles are infallible Thirdly What kind of obedience should be tendered to them Fourthly What government the Christian Church should have whither Papal and Monarchical or Aristocratical and Ministerial Fifthly How that testimony of Augustia non credidissem Scripturae c. is to be understood For the first by the Church all the Jesuits who are the Popes life-guard understand the Pope So Valentia disk Theol. tom 1. disp 1. qu. 1. Coster Enchir de sum Pont Gretser Colloq Ratis Ses 1. Bell. hanketeth in the point for once he saith that the Pope without the Council may determine matters of faith De Christo. lib. 2. cap. 28. and de Concil lib. 2. cap. 17. Against this de verbo Dei lib. 3. cap. 3. he saith the Pope with a Council is the judge of the true sense of Scripture So speaketh this reflecter The Sorbonists Jansenists and others of the Popish partie understand by the Church the present Romish officers assisted by the Pope and stand by the Canons of the Councils of Constance Sess 4. 5. and Basil Sess 2. wherein it was decreed that the Pope should obey the Council The Council of Trent according to its manner is ambiguous herein Sess 4. decr 2. And saith that the Church should judge the true sense of Scripture yet tell us not what they mean by the Church Now whatever way it be taken whither for Pope or Council there must be another judge of controversies otherwise the Church wanted a judge 300 years for there was no such judge then pretending to the infallible supremacie now claimed Secondly The Romish Synagogue headed by the Pope cannot be our judge for they are party partial against whom we have just acception Thirdly Is not this a jugling trick that when controversies occasioned and raised by them are in the Christian Church they will have none to be judge but themselves so they would be sure of the sentence and must suspect their own cause Fourthly If by the Church they mean the Pope as now they mantain it is hard to call him judge of controversies seeing it is a great controversie whither there should be any Pope at all and beyond controversie with us that he is an usurper Fifthly According to the Popish tenet the intention of the Priest is necessar in his ordination in his Baptism succession without interruption is necessar and Simony maketh him no Pope as Gratian telleth from the Canon law causa 2. qu. 1. Now if so he may be a Pagan for who knoweth the Priests intention who baptized him He may be a Laick and yet without ordination upon the same ground if one be such it marreth uninterrupted succession and so ceaseth the Pope Then by your own writters it is clear that many Popes entered by Simony as Barronius testifieth Annal tom 9. ad annum Christi 912. And Alexander the 6. was notorious that way This un Popeth all for it breaketh the chain of succession and leaveth the Church collective without any judge It is clear hence how slipperie the Romish Church is in its foundations seeing he whom they call the Church may be a Pagan Secondly As to the second thing proposed viz. Whither Church officers since the days of the Apostles are infallible The Church whither taken for Pope or Council or Pope Council is not infallible When the Councils condemned hereticks of old they did it not pro arbitratu imperio but judged by the Scriptures which is indeed an infallible rule but the church taken whither for Pope or Council or Pope and Council is not infallible First If the jewish-Jewish-church erred in matter of faith and worship then may the christian-christian-church erre also For they had statutes judgements and promises to them were committed the oracles of GOD. Rom. 3. 2. But Aaron and the people erred grosly Ex 32. So did Uriah the Priest 2. Kings 16. May not then Popes erre Seeing Aaron the saint of the Lord was not infallible Yea both Priest and Prophet erred in judgement see Is 28. 7. on which words Sanctius the Jesuit saith Priests Prophets and people were spiritually drunk Did not the Church rulers while the Levitical Priest-hood lasted procure the death of Christ Secondly Under the Gospel Popes and Councils have erred Ergo they are not infallible Tertullian telleth contra Praxetam that Eleutherius the Pope approved Montanus heresie and obtruded it on the Church as his Irenicum Your own Barronius telleth ad ann 302. that Marcellus the Pope sacrificed to Idols Athaudsius †Athanasius in epist ad Solitariam vitam agentes testifieth that Liberius the Pope was Arrian Honorius was condemned in the sixth General Council as a Monothelit Anastasius the Pope saith Alphonsus de cast lib. 5. cap. 25. was Nestorian Now can Monothelism Nestorianism Arrianism Montaaism and Idolatry be â—nherent to a man infallible Or can a chair make that man who is Arrian Orthodoxe or him who sacrificeth to Idols unerring who will believe this Councils may erre adversaries being judges Occam asserteth so much and Petrus Alliaco Cardinalis qu. vespert art 3. for he saith that this promise the gates of hell shal not prevail against the Church is made universo catui fidelium to the whole number of the faithful not to the representative Church which may erre Panor sup 1. part sib decret Dicit Ecclesiam quae non potest errare esse totam collectionem fidelium nam ista est Ecclesia quae non potest errare that is the whole company of believers which cannot erre Nic. de Clemang in his disp with the Parisians saith the promise Matth. 18. as likewise that Iohn 16. The spirit of truth shal lead you into all truth belongeth only to spiritual ones and it were better to be much in fasting and prayer for direction then to bragge we cannot erre So then I reason the Pope may erre
Of 150. Bishops in the first Council of Constantinople anno 381. Where the Bishop of Constantinople is decreed to be the chief next the Bishop of Rome Thirdly Of 200. Bishops in the first council of Ephesus anno 431. where in the third action it is defined that saint Peter was the head and prince of the Apostles and that the power of binding and loosing is granted to him who in his successours liveth and exerciseth judgement unto this very day Fourthly Of 600. Bishops in the Chalcedon council in the year 451. where in the third action also Pope Leo is called universal Bishop Patriarch of old Rome and sentence is pronounced against Dioscorus in the name of Leo and sunt Peter to acknowledge Leo Peters successour The Fathers in particular I do not cite for their citations in this would make a volumn Only I engage that of a 100. there be 90. clear for this And not one against it Is not Popish faith resolved into a lie say you viz. the infallibility of Pope or Council You should have said Pope and Council putting tâ—em together as the head and chief members which represent the whole body of the Church As the Parliament doth the whole Kingdome and then if you doubt of their infallibility you deny the express words of Scripture which calleth the Church the ground and pillar of truth 1. Tim. 3. and which assureth us that the gates of hell shal not prevail against her Math. 16. 18. Yea you take away all possible means to know infalliblie what is true Scripture what is the true sense thereof which is to make us doubt of all and leave us no sufficient ground to believe undoubtedlie any thing You take away Christs promise to be with the Church to the end of the world Matth. 28. 20. Yea you take away an Article out of the Creed I believe in the holy Catholick Church and leaving men either to the dead letter of Scripture which killeth many or the privat spirit which deceiveth more or natural reason which can be a motive of faith to none you cast loose all Religion every one reâ—ecting or receiving Scripture as he pleaseth Expounding Scripture as he pleaseth and following in both no infallible rule or guide but his own opinion fancie imaginatioÌ„ In the fourth part you say that all the positives of the reformed Religion were mantained in the primitive Church the first 300. years But if this were true it would be made good no otherwise but by the Fathers writtings in the first three ages after Christ Now if they had all your positive tenets why do your learnedest writters openly disclaime them as I have shewed formerly Why saith Luther your Apostle lib. deserv arbitrio cap. 2. the authority of the Fathers is not to be reguarded and in his Collâ—q cap. de patribus In the writtings of Hierom there is not aword of true faith of Chrysostom I make no account Basil is of no worth he is wholly a Monk Cyprian is a weak Divine But I must not insist on this because you may in some measure deny the greatest parts of controverted points betwixt you and us to be positive tenets Albeit there be none of them but justly may be called so For you not only deny for example the real presence invocation of Saints use of Images that a man is justified by faith and works c. But ye positively believe that Christs Body and Blood is not reallie present in the Sacrament that to invocat the Saints is to give Gods worship to creatures that to make use of Images is idolatrie that a man is not justified by faith only Therefore I instance only two upon which all your visible reformation is grounded First That the whole visible Church may erre Secondly That we should believe nothing but what is in the written Word Now I have made it appear reflecting on your sixt answer that both these positive tenets are against the express wordes of Scripture and Fathers How then did the Church in the first 300. years hold all the positives and what you affirme As for your negatives and what you deny you grant they cannot be there because the controversies were not then stated But this is a bold and open calumnie for not one point is denyed by you but the Fathers in the first 300. years have clearlâ—e asserted And so the controversie betwixt you and us was sufficientlie stated even then You deny real presence and transubstantiation but in the second age Justin Martyr Apol. 2. ad Antonium saies as Jesus Christ incarnat had flesh and blood for our redemption so are we taught that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of the same Jesus incarnat And in the third age Cyprian serm de coena Domini saith the bread which the Lord gave to his Disciples being changed not in shape but in nature by the omnipotencie of the Word is made flesh Secondlie Ye deny the sacrifice of the Masse asserted in the first age by St. Andrew in the book of his passion written by his Disciples I daily saith he sacrifice the immaculat Lamb to Almightie GOD who when he is truelie sacrificed and his flesh eaten remaineth intire and alive And in the third age by Origen hom 13. on Exod. Ye think your self guiltie and worthilie if any part of the consecrated Hoste be lost by your negligence Thirdlie Ye deny Purgatory asserted in the second age by Tertullian lib. de anima cap. 58 seeing we understand Matthews prison which the Apostle demonstrats to be places below and the least farthing is every smal fault delayed to be paied till the resurrection none will doubt but the soul will recompence something in places below And in the third Age It is one thing being cast into prison not to go out thence till he pay the uttermost farthing another presently to receive the reward of faith One thing to be affected with long pains for sins to be amended and have all sins purged with suffering sayeth Cyprian ep 52. ad Antonium Fourthly ye deny Prayer for the dead allowed in the first Age by S. Clemens ep 1. de sancto Petro where he saith Peter there taught to give almes and pray for the dead And in the same age by Tertul. lib. de cor militis we make yearly oblations for the dead Fifthly ye deny invocation of Saints and Angells recommended in the secong Age by S. Dennis Eccl. hierarch part 3. cap. 3. saying I constantly affirm with the divine scripture that the prayers of the saints are profitable for us in this life after this manner when a man is inflamed with a desire to invocat the saints and distrusting his own weakness betakes himself to any saint beseeching him to be the helper and petitioner to God for him he shall obtaine by that mean very great assistance And in the third Age Origen on the Lambent sayeth I le begin to fall on my knees and pray to all the saints to succour me
and baptize all Nations To ordain Pastours for edifying the body whose power and calling it is to preach the Word purely to administrat the Sacraments of Baptism and the Supper of the Lord as it was first delivered to rule their flocks as they that watch for souls and should stand and feed in the strength of the Lord to administer discipline according to the word of GOD and to do every thing commanded there which may bring men near GOD and help them forward in their journey to Heaven That Magistrats should be obeyed in the Lord. Parents honoured and husband and wife dwel together according to knowledge as heirs of the grace of life That Masters should remember they have a Master in Heaven and Servants be subject to their Masters for the Lords sake That the Lord to whom we owe all should be loved with the whole heart and have the flower of our affection and that we love our neighbour as our self That we should rather suffer then sin and glorify GOD in every station wherein he placeth us This is the summe of the positives which we mantaine he who will deny that all this is contained in Scripture and consented to by the Fathers hath no understanding either of Scripture or antiquity The negatives of our Religion are points of Popery denyed by us and condemned in the Scripture contrar to all antiquity Such as these That the Pope of Rome is supream infallible Monarch of the Christian Church That he and these who follow him cannot erre in matters of faith That he hath preheminence above the scripture and may dispence with the law of GOD concerning incest murder perjury c. That he may depose Kings Their service in an unknown tongue is contrary to all pure antiquitity so much is confessed by Thomas Cajetan and Lyranus writting on 1. Cor. 14. Their praying on beads a late invention Polid Virgil lib. 5. invent cap. 9. Their carrying of the Hoste by a pompous procession is praeter veterem morem saith Cassander consult art 22. not according to antiquity That Christ is bodily present there and should be worshâ—pped and that bread and wine is no longer there after consecration is not older then the Lateran Council That the cup should be holden from the People is of one age with the council of Constance That the Mass iâ— a proper propitiatory sacrifice for the sinnes of dead and living was unknown to Peter Lombard who saith from Augustin lib. 4. disp â—â— that which is offered is called a sacrifice because it is a commemoration and representation of the true sacrifice made on the altar of the Cross Augustin lib. 20. cap. 21. against Faustus the Manichaean the flesh and blood of Christ before his comming into the world was promised by the similitude of the legâ—l sacrifices in the suffering of Christ 〈◊〉 his flesh and blood was in the veritie and antitype it self exhibited after the asâ—â—â—tion of Christ it is celebrated in the Sacrament of commemoration That none should communicaâ— except such as make aâ—ticulat consession to a Priest was not known in the ancient Church saith Maldon sum qu. â—â— art 11. Where there was only publick confession That Images should be set up in Churches and worshipped was abominated till the second council of Nice The like may be said of Purgatorie worshipping Saints and Angels with-holding the Bible from people c. So the Romish Religion is new and ours the good old way quod primum verum saith Tertul. lib. 4. contra Marc. cap. 5. It is true that the enemy did sow tares quickly in the Church and the mysterie of iniquity did encrease by degrees Yet these were not holden to be de side and made articles of the Christian Creed under the paine of Anathema till the council of Trent then indeed in stead of reformation which occasioned that convention the Trent Doctors oâ— at least the plurality of them gathered the crotchets of some Fathers the disputable opinions of some School-men and making a bundle of all together did obtrude them to be believed by all Christians under the pain of excommunication So that the church of Rome as new dogmatized is no older then the council of Trent and ours is as old as Scripture sensed by the purest antiquity For further clearing beside all I have said formerly you may hear this more how Suarez telleth us that the council of Florence did at first insinuat that there were seven Sacraments but it was no article of faith till the council of Trent the like may be said of the rest So Popery is a superstitious superstructure like an ulcer on the body which was long in growing at last did break out and stain the garments of many in a world When our Lord Jesus dyed he left a Testamen behind him which being opened directeth all his subjects how to carry Papists not content with this rule for ordering his legacâ—e upon a pompous design have formed a dative which they make equal to his Testament which we disclaim and honestly adhere to the first Testament here is the rule of our Negatives It is â—â—â—rasonick bragge for you to say That of an 100. Fathers ye have 99. for your tenets and as untrue that the four first general Councils were for the Popes universal supremacie The Fathers though the mystery of iniquitie was then in the cradle being taken up with other controversies did not purposely fall on these tares which scarcely were come to the blade then For instance the Fathers in the first 300. years whose books are extaÌ„t were Iust Mar. who did writ 150. year after Christ an Apology for the vindication of Christians to the Senat of Rome after another of the samekind to Antonius the Emperor a Dialogue concerning the verity of Christian Religion called Tryphon and some other letters exhorting to moral duties holding forth the Roligion of Christians against Jews and Gentiles but that which is Poperie the source of controversies in the Christian Church was unknown to him The next is Ironaeus who lived about the year of Christ 178. He did write five books against the heresies of his time as the Valentinians Gnosticks Ophites the heresie of Simon Magus Menander Basilides So Popery is not to be found in them unless some of these heresies be found in their skirts The â—hird is Clemens Alexandrinus who flourished in the year of Christ 196. who was a Presbyter of Alexandria the subject he handleth is in three parcels an exhortation to the Gentiles to renounce their Idols a Paedagogy to the Christians instructing them about their carriage and his Stromara which is a Miscellany work against the followers of Basilides Gnosticks c. Origen lived about the same time whose writtings are so imperfect and vitiated that we scarce know what to make of them as Erasmus witnesseth in his edition Tertullian did writ about the same time several books as concerning Patience the Resurrection against the Jews against Marcion Hermogenes
Ghost proceedeth from the Father and the Son is clear in Scripture Io. 14. 16. 17. Ioh. 15. 26. Io. 16. 7. Gal. 4. 6. Fourthly That there be two Natures in Christ is clear Io. 1. 14. The Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us And Augustin who refuteth Rebaptization mantained by Donatists maketh no use of unwritten Traditions against that errour but of that Scripture Eph. 4. 5. One Lord one Faith one Baptism for he sayeth reâ—urrantus ad fontem viz. Scripturas let us return to the Scriptures which are the fountain then citeh that text mentioned Tom. 7. lib. 5. cap. 26. and Ordination is expressed in that Tense which by vertue of the word excludeth Reiteration It being a matter of Order if it be once done according to the rule 1. Tim. 4. 14. it is enough neither should this be debated here for all that we assert is that all points necessar to salvation are comprehended in Scripture either expresly or cosequentially by general or particular precepts Perinde sunt ea quae ex Scriptuâ—is Colliguntur atque ea quae scribuntur saith Nazianzen †Naz. de Theol. orat 5. i. e. These things which by necessary consequence are deduced from Scripture are of the same force with these which are written in it Let the Reader judge whither Popery be a safe way which buildeth our main foundations upon humane testimonie and derogats so much from the Scriptures of GOD. Yea ere they will give them their due rather will they strengthen Anti-Trinitarians Arrians Anti-Sacramentarians Anti-Sabbatarians Donatists and Separatists The Lord grant repentance to such who leaving the truth have a massed a body of errors Thirdly For that amongst many Versions Pa. Red. 3 yea and corruptions of Scripture which all do acknowledge and each sect imputeth to its adversaries it seemeth very hard to discern authentick Scripture many of the originals being lost and the extract comming to the hands of very few and few understand the Hebrew and Greek tongues wherein they are written and yet of this first of all we must be understood and assured if we will not waver in matters of fâ—â—th Answer first This is a digression to another Pro. An. 1 question concerning the Version for I would ask if there be any right Version at all this will not be denyed for the old Latine translation is acknowledged by you then it is the rule of faith and no humane testimony What doth this arguing prove against the point there be some corrupted Versions Ergo the Original rightly translated must not determine my faith some men are evil cloathed therefore a man should not be well cloathed against the cold there is no consequence there Further this objection maketh the word of God useles to men Now is it like that all should be commanded to go to the Law and Testimony to search the Scriptures if they could not be had by any Yea this Objection spoileth Providence of its rent of praise which hath appeared so visibly in the preservation of the Scriptures And we bless his Name for it that we have the Originals in Hebrew and Greek and so pure a translaon that if any will compare them they wil find great faithfulnes and skill in the translators But to answer this impertinent Objection An. 2. more fully we say that the Version is a Commentary be way of interpretation and we make neither the translatioÌ„ of the 70. nor of the vulgar Latine authentick but wheÌ„ we find errours in either we go ad judicem incorâ—uptum hoc est primaevam linguam to the uncorrupted Judge that is the first language so much speaketh your Acosta lib. 2. cap. 10. and in this rightly But yee Romanists have preferred the vulgar Latine to the Hebrew and Greek whereas it is a corrupt translation as some of your own testifie and corrupteth the doctrine witness that one text for many Gen. 3. 15. Ipsa conteret caput tuum She shal break thy head which is contrar to the Hebrew hu to the 70 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and putteth the Virgin Mary for Christ so overturneth a foundation Pagâ—â—n in his Preface to the Hebrew Grammar saith Optarem ut ostenderent mihi Germanam translationem quae enim pâ—ssim legitur non est Hieronymi incorrupta translatio i. e. I wish they would shew me the Genuin translation for that which is coÌ„monly received is not Hieroms pure translation and Sixtus Senensis Bib. lib. 8. sub finem sayeth Multa ibi sunt parum accommodate versa There are many things in it not fitly rendered so that our Version will be found as good as any And we are not hindered to run to the fountains in case of doubting we make use of these streams as helps and the Version is an humane instrument leading us to the well-head of the Original tongues Dei verbum non est linguased doctrina The word of GOD is not the language but the doctrine saith Rivet in his Isag cap. 1. and we need Grammar more then Tradition for understanding thereof Reason fourth Many cannot read Scripture and more as yet do not understand it the Pa. Rea. 4 Scripture then or written word cannot be the Rule of Faith to these poor ignorants but their Churches or Pastors authority And so it seemeth the Scripture cannot be the rule of faith to all persons or in all points or of any point contained in it self untill I be first assured of some infallible rule that this translation I rely upon is conform to the original in all points and this Bible I am reading is the authentick word of God Answer First This maketh nothing against Pro. An. 1 our assertion wherein it is only said that the Scripture is the rule of faith to a right discerner which is granted by the Arguer in the next reason It is Regula regulativa to all apt and meet to decide all controversies if men have ears to hear what the Spirit saith to the Churches if it be not Regula regulans to some who are ignorant and unstable Vitium ost in Organo the fault is in the Organ It is ill argued to say the Sun shineth not because blind men see it not Secondly They who cannot read the Scriptures An. 2. can hear them read and it is more easie for dark ignorant ones to hear the word read and explained in their own language then to travel from Scotland to Rome to hear the sentence of the Pope for they could not understand the language in which it is delivered they cannot travel through their decretals and acts They know not if it be a lawful Pope who pronounceth the sentence And by their Confessours here they may be and are deceived Thirdly It is the priviledge and promise An. 3. of God to open the heart to enlighten the eyes by the word read and preached but no where hath the word of man this prerogative See Is 32. 3. 4. and Is 35. 5. 6. 7. 8. These are Gospel
prophecies The Roman Trash may well make seeing men blind but will never make blind men see the right way Fourthly We do not deny ministeriall An. 4. helps to unlettered people for such are commanded Heb. 13. 7. and 17. provided alwayes their faith be resolved into the word of God at least interpretative virtualiter What ever means be used this milk of the Word is the authentick instrument which begetteth faith and it must be received not as the word of man albeit the treasure be in earthen vessels and the milk in a wooden pape The difference of assent betwixt the learned and the unlearned is only accidental and modal the one being more express then the other we Catechise and instruct the ignorant and require them to hear the Church and follow their guides so far as they follow Christ 1. Cor. 11. 1. we hold forth coâ—munia fidei motiva interna 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inward testimonies the common motives of faith reasons and testimonies of old and late and what ever may help their edification but we dare not lead them from the Scripture to men neither will the interpretation of the Scripture permit us to admit of an other determiner And it may be wel enough known by them who understand these languages that these Greek and Hebrew words do thus signifie as they are translated without the help of an infallible decree of Pope or Council thereanent Without this also GODS word can discover it self to be from GOD as hath been shewed already Reason 5. Reading of the Scripture with the privat spirit and taking it up as every one Pa. Rea. 5 thinketh maketh all the controversies in Christendom daily multiplying both Heresies and sects Luther no sooner swerved from the Church and denyed her authority but as soon he broached this principle That every man might take the Bible follow that interpretation which after due diligence used he thought best whereupon preseÌ„tly did spring up an incredible number of different sects Antimonâ—ans Osiandrians Majorists Synergists c. Now hear what Luther himself said of Calvins heresie Tom. 7. fol. 380. I scarce ever read saith he of a more deformed heresie which presently in the beginning was divided into such variety of sects as so many Toads and such disagreement of opinions not one like to another You see then how the word cannot be the determiner of faith which all these sects take with you for their rule yet alone will never agree â—hem As for that you say the scripture hath Divine authority Heavenly majestie and maketh Spiritual impressions on the soul all this I grant if once a man know or believe it to be the word of GOD. Answer First All this is answered to the fourth or fifth question and should not be Pro. An. 1 brought in here yet passing the digression and informality which I hope the Reader cannot impute to me the Defender I answer to the 5. Reason the Scriptures in the Primitive Church were published â—o all this your own Azâ—â—iâ—s confesseth Iust mor. p. 1. lib 8. c. 26. â—he Scriptures in the Primitive Church were to be published throughout all Nations and therefore made common in the most famouâ— languages In Hierom and Chrysostoms dayes the ley people were exercised in reading the Scriptures Espencaeus saith Comment on Tit. 3. 2. it is manifest by the Apostles doctrine Col. 3. 16. and by the practise of the Church that the publies use of reading the scriptures was then permitted to the people The Council of Nice decreed saith Agrippa that no Chriâ—tian shoulâ—â—e without a Bible Augustin alloweth de Doct. Christi the use of scriptures to all for he saith they are not so hard but every one by his use making of them may attain to so much knowledge of them as may further him in his salvation Chrysost hom 3. de Lizaro exhorts all men and women yea Tradsmen to get Bibles Now I pray you to what purpose if they dare not search for the sense of them Secondly It is denyed that when privat Pro. An. 2 men search the Scriptures this is an act of a privat spirit †It may be privat respectupersonae which is publick rationâ— modi medii è contra for such may pray and have the spirit of grace and supplication poured forth on them according to the promise Zach. 12. 10. and none call that a privat spirit so they may interpret Scripture by Scripture and have the gift of it Hear your own Gerson primâ— part de ex doct Si aliquis non authorizatus sit excellenter in sacra scriptura eruditus plus credendum est ejus assertioni quam Papae declarationi i. e. If any not ordained be well instructed in the holy Scriptures his assertion is more to be believed then the Popes declaration Secondly Our Divines distinguish well three sorts of interpreters the first is extraordinar and miraculous 1. Cor. 12. 30. The second is ordinar and ministerial 1. Cor. 14. 32. The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets The third is of privat persons who are commanded to â—ry the spirits and are commended for so â—â—ing Aâ—t 8. 28. 29. Aâ—t 17. 11. The first kynd of interpretation is gone the two next are in use as yet but the one is subservient to the other Thirdly â—he different sects that lay claim to Scripture cannot deprive us of the priviledge to search it and make use of it Will any man approve this argument Meat and drink is abused by some therefore none should eat or drink If the matter be indifferent and subject to abuse then we are to restrain our selves of liberty in the use of that in different thing Vâ—tandum estlicituÌ„ non necessâ—riuÌ„ propter vicinitatem illiâ—â—ti Aug. de câ—v Dei lib. 15. But when it is necessar necessitate precepti medii by necessity of precept and mean who can forbid the use of a necessar mean Now it is most necessar to improve the Scriptures by reading understanding application meditation and blessed is he who doth so day and night sitting or standing Deâ—t 6. 6. It is absurd to say â—lbeit Luther and Calvin did differ in some points that he fathered the sects of Germany on Calvin who was as free of Munster malady as the man unborn and was malleus haereticorum as his learned writtings testifie aboundantly In that place cited he speaketh of the swarms of sects which were indeed monstrous like at that time but never imputed it to the use making of Scripture for then he would not have understood himself nor could he blame Calvin for it upon that account seeing it was his own tenet Now Reader stay and impartially consider the weaknes and impertinency of these 5 reasons why our faith should not be resolved into the Scriptures and determined by them For the sume of all is thus concluded The word of GOD is not wel understood by some is evil translated by others and
unlearned as well as the unstable wrest the scripture to their own destruction then Scripture can neither be the determiner of faith nor the judge of controversies to them and so they must have another both to instruct the ignorant and settle the unstable as we must all have some infallible judge to know who wrest the Scripture who not otherwise we may well agree in the letter but we will never agree in the sense and meaning thereof But as much say you as containeth the way to salvation is plain so that he may runne who readeth it Sir doth it not belong to salvation that there be three persons in God one in Christ that Baptism is a Sacrament c. Now where find you this in Scripture either running or siting Or if Scripture be so plaine clear as ye make it why be there so many Comments on it among your own men and so different Why is there amongst Protestants 200. expositions upon these four words This is my Body As Cusaâ—us in his holy court observeth Answer first I am glade that the written Pro. An. 1 word of GOD pleaseth you so who have all this time spent words to throw all power out of its hand and hang it at the Popes foot But you say it refuteth what was said formerly This cannot be made good for still I said it was the rule of faith to right discerners and sometime you grant this as in the latter part of your fifth Reason whereby indeed you refute all you have said and yeelds the cause fully Now what contradiction can be here The scripture is the rule to all right discerners and as many as walk according to this rule peace shal be on them but men who wrest the word unlearned unstable soules fall into perdiâ—ion for abuse of the word and destroy themselves hence proceedeth many controversies Is it not a strange consequence to inferre thence that these unlearned unstable soules should have another rule and another judge In the 19. of Luke v. 27. it is said by our Lord that his enemies who would not have him to reign over them should be brought forth and slain before him will it therefore follow that he should not reign over them Or that they Jure should have another King The case is just alike here It is granted that many have their consciences seared 1. Tim. 4. 2. are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. Tim. 3. 8. self-condemned Tit. 3. 11. under stronge delusions 2. Thess 2. 11. Is the Scripture to blame for this You have many faults to that which you like not Hear Optatus Milevitanus adversus Paliner Donatistam Vos dicitis licet nos non licet inter licet vestrum non licet nostrum nutant animi populorum If you seek a judge saith he a Pagan cannot do it nor a Jew they are enemies Christians by their discerning faculty cannot they being impeded studio partium Then upon earth there can be no judge shal we go to Heaven for one Quorsum cum hic habemus iâ— Evangelio testamentum i. e. To what purpâ—se seeing we have the Testament here in the Gospel If there be a contention among brethren saith he quaritur Testamentum the Testament is sought So we must decide our controversies by the Old and New Testament etenim praesentia quae modo facitis futura conspexerat Christus i. e. For Christ did foresee these things as future which ye make to be now present and hath he foreseen it and will he not provide a remedie for it Secondly These unlearned unstable ones Pro. An. 2 who are to be destroyed will not hear understand nor obey his word then is it like that they will understand the voluminous decrees of the Pope May they not wrest his sentence and sense more easily then Scripture words Or dare any say that humane ordinanceâ— will sooner compesâ—e command or regulat them then the word of GOD Thirdly We do not deny Mâ—nisterial Pro. An 3 helps for instructing and seâ—ling the ignorant and unstable nor judicial sentences subaltern and subordinat â—o the law But that there is an infallible man 〈◊〉 to whose sentence I must implicitly submiâ—â—â— is â—â—â—culous to averie it and the broaching of that errour hath occasioned more controversies then were formerly in the Church so far is it from composing differences If ye were more in catechising the unlearned and leâ—s in regal commands the law of GOD would be both better understood and obeyed Fourthly Albeit some places be hard to Pro. An. 4 be understood by the unlearned 1. Pet. 3. 16. other places are not so difficult In the scripture an Elephant may swime and a Lamb may wade And the same particulars you again object are clearly holden forth in scripture as is formerly proved in the vindication of my answer to your 1. Qu. in answer to Rea. 2. Yea the way to salvation is fair and patent there and if we perish our destruction is of our selves seeing that book is not sealed to us Commentaries Church-canons Ecclesiastick sentences are helps and means for edification but scripture is the authentick instrument and all the authority is originally from it And different expositions according to the analogy of faith may be and will be so long as there be diversity of gifts But I ask why ye make use of Commentars Seeing ye resolve all into the sentence of the Pope And why do your Commentators differ so amongst themselves If this hinder not your Ecclesiastick supremacie why should it be brought to weaken scripture authority It is hard to find where you are for sometimes ye would have a judge to authorize scripture to you sometimes you would have only one for the sense of scripture then at last you are for one only to the unlearned and unstable such is your instability in this matter that I wish the word of God may determine you aright in the point Question fourth Were it not better to establish Pa. Qu. 4 a man or an assembly of men judge of Controveâ—sies seeing the Church is the pillar of truth 1. Tim 3. 15. aâ—d hath the promise of presence Matth. 28. 20. then th◠〈◊〉 Sect should be laying claim to the Scripture and yet taking sundry wayes Answer The promulgation of the law is Pro. An. not denyed to the pure Gospel Church truth is mantained and preserved there as the law was keeped in the Ark thus it is called the pillar of it But the Church of Rome is not such being a very strumpet and making the Kings of the earth drunk with the cup of her fornications Rev. 17. 2. thaâ— promise of presence is made to the universal Church but no particular Church such as Rome can claim the measure or duration of it who of these can say that they shal last to the end of the world Albeit Sects lay claim to Scripture yet their abuse cannot take away our lawful use of it To this a Papist replyeth That the question Pap. Reply is not
but Aristocratical Under the New Testament the Lord appointed no visible Monarch on earth to be an officer in his church for our last appeal in dubious cases is regulated by that well known Scripture Matth. 18. 17. If he will See Bish Laud. againstâ— Fisher not hear the church let him be to thee as a publican Now it is absurd to say that this should be the sense of it tell the Pope for in no language the word Church can signifie a visible Monarch Secondly The council of Jerusalem maketh not for this for not only proceed they upon Scripture grounds but although they were infallible men yet none of them took the Papal way and the government was not Monarchical It seemed good to the holy Ghost and us Thirdly Church power is Ministerial Matth. 20. 25. 26. 2. Cor. 1. 24. 1. Pet. 5. 3. but Monarchy is Magisterial therefore it agreeth not with church power And when Papists reason for the power of the church and mention councils the argument may be thus propounded church officers councils have been appointed to rule and order the affairs of the house of God Ergo they may do what they will and who can say unto them what dost thou I deny the consequence Ergo the Pope is one of these officers it is absolutly refused And this is summa totalis of the prolix answer to the fourth question which may be taken away with a word Ergo if the word make not for them theâ— they may betake themselves to their own traditions and rule by them That is denyed also by us And suppose they should give the Law to their own Vassals will it therefore follow that they empire it over the whole Christian-church And seeing all churches are bound to a rule can any be infallible which have need of a rule When you make the Pope your church do ye not build your faith on him Is this like the foundation Eph. 2. 20. What is this but to make your faith humane And is it not absurd to say that Alexander the siâ—â—h Pope Iohn 22. in the cathedra were infallible as the Prophets and Apostles in dyting Scripture they cannot blush who speak so Fifthly As for the fifth particular viz. That place of Augustin cont ep fund cap. 5. I would not have believed the Scripture Pro. An. 5 unless the authority of the church had moved me Our Divines have answered fully long ago so it is a threed bare argument for he speaketh not there concerning the formal reason why Scripture is believed but concerning the mean and motive by which intrants are brought at first to the knowledge of the Scripture I mean the consused knowledge of the Scripture as when a man delivereth a letter he may tell from whom it is but the faith of it is from the subscription So here then by the church he understandeth not the church or Pope of Rome but the Primitive-church of the faithful which did hear see Christ and his Apostles So saith Durand †Dur lib. dist 24. qu. 1. he had to do with the Manichees who would make him believe their Gospel No saith he the testimony of those who did see with their eyes hear with their ears and handle the word of life is to be preferred to your assertion and this is a motive which made me at first quite Manichism and close with the Gospel of Christ so speaketh Melchior Canus lib. 2. de loc cap. 8. therefore it maketh nothing for the imperious supremacie of the Pope or Church in matters of faith fot there is a difference between coÌ„muma motivafidei and formalis ratio credendi See learned and perspicuous Dr. Barron against Turnebul Tract 4. pag. 188. Who hath unanswerably demonstrated this truth and so interpreteth these words of Augustin The testimony of the church is a principle inductive and a motive to new intrants to read hear and consider the holy Scriptures and it produceth only an humane faith the inward testimony of the holy Spirit is the principle effective of divine faith and the Scriptures themselves are the formal reason and terminative principle whereinto divine faith is resolved as a building upon its foundation Eph. 2. 20. To conclude this answer We judge that the pure Gospel Church is and should be the pronouncer of divine sentence from the Scripture that the authority of Councils should be inrerposed for making men willing and obedient to the divine law so should the Magistrat concurre in his station for that effect But the church of Rome is not pure nor like that which once it was in the Apostle Paul his time and at no time could she be called the Universal church far less now Albeit then her faith was spoken of throughout all the world Is this a good argument the faith of the Church of Brittain is mentioned throughout all the reformed churches of Transylvania Hungaria Polland Germany Bohaemia Flanders France and Helveâ—ia therefore it is the universal-Universal-church no we claim no more but to be a Sister church to these in the confession of faith according to the Scriptures †Alb. Pighius lib. 6. Eccl. hierarc cap. 3. and all together make up the Universal-church And any one of these is preferable to the church at Rome as it is now corrupted and apostatized Will ye hear Albertus Pighius Quis unquam per Romanam Ecclesiam intellexit universalem who ever did by the Roman Church understand the Church universal Why do ye then speak so and ambitiously empire it over all the world Question fifth Seeing no Scripture is of Pa. Qu. 5 privat interpretation 2. Pet. 1. 20. should privat men take upon them to interpret the same Answer The sense of that text is no scripture Pro. An. is the indytment of a privat spirit but proceedeth from the holy Ghost for it followeth holy men of GOD spake as they were moved by the holie Ghost and it came not of old by the will of men Therefore it is no ways to be thought that privat men should be barred from searching the Scripture seeing Christ Jesus commanded the contrar Io. 5. 39. This was spoken to a whole multitude of persecuting Jews The word is the sword of the spirit Eph. 6. 17. should any privat man be disarmed amongst his foes And blessed is he whither privat or publict who meditateth in the law of the Lord day and night Ps 1. Reply In your fifth answer you grant with the Apostle that no prophecie of the Scripture Pa. Rep. is of any privat interpretation so should you grant also that the Scriptures cannot be rightly expounded of every privat spirit and fancie of the vulgar Reader but by the same spirit wherewith they were writren which resolveth in the Church And I am very confident no learned or wise Protestant will allow any privat man to expound scripture against the common consent of the whole Catholick Church wherein they were immediatly before But you insist that it is
alleadge for this that the books of Scripture like the Sun shew themselves to be such to him who hath the spirit But I would ask at such why the Rev. St. James Epistle the second of St. Peter and two of St. John did not shew themselves to be Scripture to Luther that spiritual man and the Protestants very first Apostle in the work of reformation in the end you say Let any judge whither it be safest that the revealed will of God be your rule and determiner or the dictats of self contradicting creatures Where you seem to rubbe on Catholicks But Sir this toucheth not them at all for they profess not to believe self-contradicting creatures but the unanimous consent of Councils and fathers or the Catholick Church known to be the only Church established by Christ and his Apostles and by the continued succession of Popes Bishops and Pastors the unity universality and gifts of miracles in all ages c. Which Christ hath called the ground and pillar of truth 1. Tim. 3. 15. and against which he assureth us the gates of hell shal not prevail Math. 16. 18. and which he hath commanded us to hear otherwise to be holden as heathens and publicans Math. 18. 17. so you see that the written word maketh the Church our judge which we should obey and that ye who make so much of the written word do not believe it when ye do not obey her And here I remarke that Protestant Ministers and preachers deceive the people in that they ground their faith on the written word only and Roman Catholicks say they on humane tradition and their Churches authority which being composed of men is subject to errour Whereas the contrar is true for Roman Catholicks believe nothing which the written word believing both the tradition of the Church and Apostles doth not expresly warrand As for the Church what is more expresly said then what I have cited both to prove that we are bound to hear her Mat. 18. 18. and hold her authority infallible Math. 16. 18 and the house of God which is the pillar and ground of truth 1. Tim. 3. 15. Neither doth it avail you to say this is not said of the Roman Church which is not the universal Church but a particular one a strumpet c. For we speak not of any particular Church when we say that the Church is infallible nor when we say the Roman the Catholick do we understand the particular Church at Rome But that Church which professeth constantly the Romans faith spread in saint Pauls time through all the world As we call yet the Roman Empire that which hath its seat in Vien of Austria Yea Protestants calling their own the reformed Church cannot say but we have one Church on earth which Christ commanded us to hear constantly And if the reformed Church be the true Church then she must have taken the place from that church which was deformed and had fallen into an errour and so deserved no more to be called the pillar and ground of truth or to be heard Moreover the very pillars of the Protestant Religion grant all the world to be in an errour before themselves and so against the express written Word must deny the infallibility of any Church whatever For Calv. Instit lib. 4. cap. 18. saith they made all the Kings and People of the earth drunk from the first to the last and Hospinian epist 41. saith Luthers separation was from all the world White in his defence chap. 37. saith Popery was a leprosie breeding so universally in the church that there was no visible company of men free from it Jewel in his Sermon on Luke 11. The whole world Princes and people were overwhelmed by ignorance and bound by oath to the Pope which if it be true that the Church in former ages did erre the reformed Church may erre that themselves do not deny Thence it followeth clearly that the Protestant Church is not the house of GOD called the pillar and ground of truth that she is not Christs Church against which the gates of hell shal not prevail that none are bound to hear her in matters of faith being subject to errour And so Protestants may well desire men to read the Scripture and believe what they found there but not urge any man to follow their doctrine but in so far as they find it conforme to Scripture which all Roman Catholicks protest they do not As for traditions are we not commanded to hold them in the clear written Word 2. Thess 2. 15. Hold the traditions which ye have learned whither by word or our epistle Protestants read documents but documents by word and traditions are the same thing on which place Chrysost saith It is evident that the Apostle did not deliver all things by writ but many things by word which are worthy of credit as wel as the other That is Christs word as well as his writ therefore we call them divine and Apostolical traditions Aug. lib. 5. de Trinit cap. 23. speaking of rebaptization The Apostle saith he commanded nothing of it but that customâ— which is believed to proceed from the Apostle is opposed against Cyprian in it as many things are which the whole Church holdeth and therefore are believed to be commanded by the Apostles though not written Aâ—d in the first age saint Dennis chap. 1. speaking of the Ecclesiastick hierarchy saith These our chief captains of Priestly function did deliver to us the chiefest and supersubstantial points partly in written partly in unwritten institutions Epiph. Haeres 61. is of the same minde we must hold traditions saith he for the Scripture hâ—th not all things and Tertullian de praescrip grounds his faith on the authority of the Church and what tradition I believe saith he I received from the present Church the present Church from the primitive that from the Apostles the Apostles from Christ Here I hope you see you must either admit traditions as necessar in themselves and infallible in their authority or else disclaim both Scripture and Fathers All that Protestants can say either against the authority of the Church in general Councils or Apostolick traditions delivered by her is that all her decisions and traditions flow from men and so are not infallible But I answer neither were the Prophets Apostles Evangelists who penned the Scripture but men yet I hope their writtings are not fallible or subject to errour Because they were inspired directly and assisted by the Spirit of God The Fathers of the Church have to this day that promise verified to them Math. 28. 20. which was made as well to their successours as to themselves As for that some Protestante speak of an invisible Church composed of the Elect it is but a shift to delude the ignorant for as it is a Maxime of law Idem est non esse non apparere i. e. it is the same not to be and not to appear to be in the matter of any
as yet others think that seeing the occasion of the first making use of it is removed it not being commanded in Scripture and much abused by you that it is more expedient to leave it undone But your abuse of it is not approved by Tertullian so his testimony maketh nothing for you who do so And for Images it is an impudencie in you to say that there were any Images set up in Churches the first 300. years what ever draughts might be in dwelling houses or cups For proving your shamelesness in this assertion hear your own Lorinus on 17. Acts on the 15. verse c. where wit Vasquez and Durand he telleth that all Images were forbidden under the Law and citeth for it Ex. 20. 3. then he sheweth that under the Gospel in the first Centuries there were no Images for this he citeth Lactantius and Tertullian Augustin and Arnobius contra Gentes who saith that Gentiles exprobrabant Christianis quod nullam Dei formarent picturam occultabant quod celebant i. e. The Gentiles did upbraid the Christians because they would not make any Image of GOD they did hide what they worshipped That Adrian fancying the Christians as Pagans suspected did build his Temple without any Images And in Constantius his time the Christian Chappels were called Templa Adrians Then he bringeth the decree of the Council of Eliberis where it was provided that there should be no Images in Churches Ne quod colitur adoratur in parietibus depingatur i. e. that which is worshipped and adored should not be painted on walls This council was celebrated in the time of Constantine in the fourth Centurie and this is the 36. Canon of it And till the second Council of Nice which was in the 800. year Image worship was abommable in the Christian Church How then can you assert so great and absurd an untruth Read ancient History and acknowledge your errour As for Free-will we do not deny it in some senseâ— and in the Jesuited sense none of these you cite did mantaine it Augustin against Julian and Pelagius opposed that so do we This is well proved by Jansenius Yprensis in his defence of Augustins doctrine against the Jesuits Vincentius Lyrinensis adversus Haereses lib. 1. cap. 34. proveth that Pelagius was the first inventer of your Free-will which is Arbitrium servum As for the merit of works Just in Marty understood not by it meritum condigni but the obtaining of the end of their faith and labours So Augustin saith the Apostle Paul electionis vas meruit nominari lib. de praed gratia and Cyprian readeth that 1. Tim 1. 13. I obtained mercy misericordium merui You keep the words which some ancients used and we the sense so ye deceive the People In your sense they absolutly renounced it Origen in epist ad Rom. lib. 4. suith Vix mihi suadeo quod possi ullum opus esse a nobis quod ex debito remunerationem Dei poscat i. e. I can hardly perswade my self that there can be any work which of debt deserveth a reward from GOD. Bernard in Cant serm 67. non est in quo gratia intret ubi jam meritum occapavit i. e. Grace hath no place to enter where merit hath occupied the room Your own Ferus on Matth. chap. 20. S. saith GOD hath freely promised he rendereth freely if therefore thou wouldest keep the grace and favour of GOD make no mention of thine own merits For out of mercy he will give all yet thou must not be the slower to good workes yea welshould be more fervent for doing of them as becometh us well who have so bountiful a Lord. Which words the Spanish inquisitors would have expunged Lastly You prove the fulfiling of the law even as the rest by Tertallian and Origen who say nothing but that through Christ who strengthneth us we can do all things This is the word of GOD Phil. 4. 13. which we will not disclaim But the man who can fulfil the Covenant of workes needeth not a Saviour Is it like they would hold it in your sense seeing they disclaime merit and said with us In many things we offend all and when we have done all we are unprofitable servants Where is perfection then The saw may be so farre fulfilled as to make us acceptable to GOD through Christ but not to justifie us Now let the Reader judge impartially whither it was ignorance in me to say that the primitive Church knew not Popery and that the negatives of our Religion could not be allowed by them more then by us What they say obiter concerning any thing of that kind is for us more then for Papists Papists Quest 8 Question eight How prove you the tenets of the Church of Rome to be contrar to Scripture Answer Your doctrine forbidding Laicks Prote ∣ stants Answer as ye call them to read and search the word of GOD is against the command of Christ Iohn 5. 39. this is written Scripture which ye contradict by your practice c. Reply In your eight Answer you are so Papists Reply confused in your method so weak in your citations and even sometimes so contradicting to your self that it needeth no other censure Yet I will reflect briefely on every thing You object first our doctrine forbidding Laicks as we call them say you as if there were no true distinction between Church men and Laicks i. e. a Minister and a Cobler in Ecclesiastical functions To read the Scripture is against the command of Chrâ—st Where first you object as if there were any article of the Cathoilck Church forbidding them to read Scripture absolutly She forbiddeth them to read Scripture without leave of their Pastours and Directours which is easily granted to any judicious person as all the Converts of this Countrey know whereof the greatest part have seen your errours in Scripture and detasted them Your citation is weak and can prove nothing till it be made out whither the words be imperatively taken or rather indicatively Ye search the Scriptures so Cyril interpreteth it lib. 3. in Iohn chap. 4. To whom Beza assenteth advertisirg that the word should be rather taken in the indicative mood So that you see I must have some other infallible judge to tell me in which of these two senses it should be taken before I build any thing on this place Thirdly As Christ in the same chapter proveth himself to be the Son of GOD by four testimonies First Of John the Baptist Secondly Of his works and miracles Thirdly Of his Heavenly Father Fourthly Of Scripture So do we prove by four like testimonies the Roman Church First By the authority of the Fathers Secondly By miracles in all ages Thirdly By the authority of GOD clearlie saying in all ages by her unitie sanctity in fallibility This is my Spouse Fourthly Of Scriptures exhorting all to read and hear them not superficially turning and shuffling them over as the Jews do to this day and yet
obstinatly deny what they so clearly testifie but to consider and reflect on the Catholick verities there delivered as that Christ was truely the Son of GOD. Answer If my Answer be weak it is the more easily refuted But how can a Scripture Prote ∣ stants Answer argument be weak except it be misapplyed which you do not alleage here I had almost forgotten the reason which is this that all Scripture is like Aesops fables to you unless it be sensed and animated by your Church Hinc illae lachrymae Then you say I am confused in the met od I beginne with the Scripture then I go to the woâ—ship c. Is there any thing jumbled here I know no rule tendered by Methodists for sorting Scripture citations if they be pertiuently cited And whither you speak truth in â—athering contradictions upon me it will afterward appear when I consider your anâ—weâ—s to these 20. texts of Scripture and compare them with your former Replyes it putteth me in mind of our Sea fouls which can flee only above water and slutter on the land So you mount up with humane traditions but can scarcely slutter when you mention Scripture it is not your Element this appeareth by your first Reply and the rest are no better For once you deny that the people I said you call them Laicks not that we deny a distinction betwixt Pastours and people as you would insinuat But to note your vaine appropriating the name of Clergie or the Lords heritage to your Priests as if the people of GOD were not a part thereof contrary to 1. Pet. 5. 3. and as if you had a coÌ„manding power over them For the arrogancy of your Roman Clergie Jerome called them Senatum Pharisaeâ—um the Senate of the Pharisees I say the people are forbidden to read the Scripture by you And that some in SCOTLAND of your way are licensed to read them if this were true why is it a ground of inquisition abroad to have a Bible by them and made a ground of perâ—ecution here in the time of reformation if there be no countermand why is it held a transgression Secondly The granting of a licence to some implyeth an inhibition and ye are wiâ—ty in licensing some few to read it here and none in Italy or Spain For there be no hazard to the Popedom here which might be there if they were not so muzled Next you say the wâ—rd Iohn 5. 39. is not in the imperative but indicative mood for that you cite Cyril and Beza Gâ—ving noâ— granting that it is so it maketh still against your practise Fot they searched the Scriptures with his approbation and our Lord referreth the people to them as the rule of their direction for knowing him which ye refuse to do for ye must have another infallible judge to bear testimonie of him Thirdly You desire people not to shuffle but search the Scriptures I am glad to hear you speak so you yeeld the cause we seek no more Blessed be the Lord GOD of truth Magna est vis veritatis and blessed is the man who meditate in the Law of GOD day and night For your application of the place it is selfish and the similitude halteth on more leggs then one The second Scripture is that 1. Cor. 14. Protestants 2. Inst § 2. 14. which forbiddeth your Latine service If I pray in an unknown tongue my understanding is unfruitful c. How shal one who occupieth the room of the unlearned say amen verse 16. Reply You reply that the word unknown Papists Reply is not in the Original but taken in by interpreters neither is if great inconvenient albeit men pray publickly in an unknown tongue sithence preaching only is for edification and information of the judgment not prayer Iâ— there any scripture forbidding us to pray except the understanding of the hearers be instructed The high Priest amongst the Jews prayed in the sanctuary and was seperated from the people therefore could not instruct their understanding yet that was their forme of publict worship And the Apostle in the same chapter verse 5. To speak with tongues I forbid not I wish ye did all speak with tongues and he desireth them to pray that they might interpret And the Liturgies of the Church are interpreted to the people This scripture maketh more against your Ministers who with extemporarie prayers speak non-sense which hath made one of your own Poets say fools understand not us nor wise men you Answer You have need to understand the Greek tongue better that there be a difference Prote ∣ stants Answer betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is an unknown tongue and when the Apostle saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it needed no other word for that comprehendeth barbarous language as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth the known tongue Further he desireth them to pray that they might interpret Ergo it was an unknown tongue Varro lib. 6. de lingua latina when he citeth Aristotles book intituled Absolet names calleth them Glossae Aristotelis any may see more of this in that learned Critick Mausacius †Mausacius in Harpoerationem pa. 352. If you will read the 7. verse the equivalent of it is in the original for he mentioneth speaking in a tongue not understood and is not that an unknown tongue Then it is in a tongue to which the unlearned could not say Amen when one blessed oâ— gave thanks Thus verse 16. and it is the purpose of the Holy Ghost to refute that unedifying way at length by sundry arguments Amongst which this is one that the understanding was thereby rendered unfruitful Therefore the Apostle resolveth to pray with the spirit and the understanding also verse 15. You absurdly contradict the Apostle by your practise and adde in termes that it is no great inconvenient albeit the understanding be unfruitful He saith it is one You deny it Whither shal I believe the Apostle Paul or you I am ashamed of your impudencie herein How dare you Palam in â—s contradict the Scripture Your ragged reasons subjoyned Because prayer is not so much for the understanding as Preaching and Catechising Is there any scripture say you not to pray except they instruct the understanding of hearers I answer the scripture is for it verse 15. I will pray with the spirit and the understanding also And if this were not so Parâ—ats might pray but we ought to speak because we believe Your other reason against the Apostle is That the high Priest amongst the Jews praying in the Sanctuary was separated from the people and did not instruct their understanding yet that was the forme of their publict worship Yea in the same chapter verse 5. The Apostle saith and to speak with tongues he prohibiteth not I answer that the high Priest amongst the Jews when he was with the people prayed in an known tongue Num. 6. and when he was alone in the most holy place where he entered but once a
the unlawfulness of it nor all the Rhetorick of Muretus can wipe off For as an excellent Poet saith on that subject Maribus ore oculis atque auribus undique ano Et pene erumpit qui tuus iste cruor Non tuus iste cruor sanctorum at caede cruorem Quâ—m ferus hausisti non poteras coquere Eighteenthly Ye call your selves the Universal Church which was never attributed § 18. Inst. to the Church of Rome in the Apostle Paul his time notwithstanding that then their faith was spoken of through all the world Rom. 1. 8. Beside ye are but a particular Church at best not so numerous as we and the Greek Church are with whom we joyn in one Confession except about the manner of the ProcessioÌ„ of the Holy Ghost As witnesseth their Confession set forth in the name of the Greek Church by Cyrillus Patriarch of CoÌ„stantinople and printed Anno 1633. which booke can easily be produced Whereas ye bragge of Unity ye are great Schismaticks renting the universall Church and taking the tittle from them to your selves Ye are miserably divided within as appeareth from the strong factions of the Councill of Trent and these hot skirmishes amongst Jesuâ—ts Dominicans and Jansenists lasting to this day Moreover the scripture calleth Rome Bâ—bylon the scarlet whore according to your own Interpreters upon Rev. 17. 18. which Babylon is to be destroyed Reply You accuse us for calling our selves the Universal Church and yet would willingly Papists Reply take that title to your selves if the common practâ—se in all Ages to your shame and discreâ—it did not oppose it None acknowledging your Church under this title but all generâ—lly ours But I have heretofore told you why the Roman Church is called the Catholick as being the Mother Church constantly since the Apostles times which hath a power of head-ship and jurisdiction over all the rest holding communion with her through out the world Then you say we are but a particular Church not so numerous as ye and the Grecians with whom ye joyn in one Confession of Faith except about the manner of the procession of the Holy Ghost Which it seemeth you hold but as a trissle although it maketh no distinction betwixt the second and the third Person of the Trinity for where there is no Procession and relative opposition in the Trinitie there is no distinction say Divines after Iohn Damascene yet notwithstanding ye joine with this in the confession of faith albeit they plainly disclaim them in the censure of the Orientall Church where chap. 7. 12. 13. 21. they hold Transubstantiation seven Sacraments an unbloody sacrifice prayers to the saints and for the dead whatever you alleadge of that confession of faith printed only in the last year But however this sheweth the Protestants weaknes and wavering faith that they claim the Grecians and Lutherians albeit both do openly disclaim them Neither do you prove better our division amongst our selves seing all the parties in the Council of Trent subscrived the Canons thereof nor doth the hot skirmishes betwixt Jesuits and Dominicans in school questions hinder their Unity in all the tenets of the Catholick Church both being willing to subscribe them with their blood as amongst Jesuits many do to this day As for Jansenists we altogether disowne them and to make you more numerous if ye please are well content that in many things you call them yours I am content also Rome be called the scarlet whore Rev. 17. 18. viz. Rome under Pagan Empeâ—ours But was not the Church of Rome then in her greatest integrity and virginity under the Apostleâ— St. Peter and Paul who praising her faith as spoken of through the world both declare her Universality and speak of her preheminence Duply I had reason to challenge your usurpation Prote ∣ stants Duply of the Catholick title for your own Pighius Eccl. hierarch lib. 6. cap. 3. saith Quis unquam per Romanam Ecclesiam intellexis universalem He thinketh it absurd and repugnant and so it is As for the Grecians I can presently produce their Confession †See it set down after the Preface Printed not the last year but 30. years ago and upward wherein they disclaim seven Sacraments the unbloody service of the Masse prayers to Saints or for the Dead Purgatory Transubstantiation c. And Dr. Rivet in his 3. Tom. pag. 1257. setteth down at length how the Jesuits by money and moyen of the French Ambassadour accused the same Cyrillus of treason before the grand Segniour and said that he favoured the King of great BRITTAIN by which accusation he was for a time thrust out of charge and forced to flee anno 1627. but afterwards by the good providence of GOD restored the Greek Church would owne no other Patriarch during his absence and how sore he was persecuted thereafter see Hornbeck in his Summa Contro As for the Jansenists you gift us with them calling them ours So Augustin and the Dominicans are ours also in this so your unity and universality â—s not so much as you pretend You grant also that the scarlet whore Rev. 17. and Babylon is Rome but under the Heathen Emperour and not as it is now under the Pope Your own Ribera refuteth you fully in this for he saith †So saith Sixtus Senensis and Baronius also that it must be meaned of Apostat Rome in the time of Antichrist because she is called an adulteress the mother of harlots but there can be no adultery where Marriage was not once Secondly The people of GOD are required to leave her lest they partake of her plagues But they were never incorporated with Pagan Rome as Christians for they had no communion with Pagan Idols Ergo if your Church be the Mother of Fornications and less numerous then these who hold the Scripture for the rule in no sense can ye be called the Catholick Church Ninthteenthly Ye make the Pope Christs § 19. Inst. Vicâ—r on Earth Peters successour the head of the Church an infallible man a Demi-God Whereas all the Apostles were equal in power and dignity Matth. 20. 26. And Cyprian lib. 3. de unitate Ecclesiae saith hoc idem Petrus quod reliqui Apostoli pareâ— consortio dignitate Peter was one with the rest of the Apostles in dignity and fellowship Ambros de Sp. S. lib. 2. cap. ult Nec Paulus est inferior Petro. see August ad Hieron epist 97. and Hierom ad Evagr and Cyprian epist ad Quintum 71. Prophets and Apostles were not infallible except in penning the Scripture Did not Moses speak unadvisedly Psalm 106. 33. the Prophet Elisha professeth that the case of the Shunamit was hid from him 2. Kings 4. 27. Nathan gave forth a verdict to day and made a retractation to morrow 2. Sam. 7. Peter controuled the Heavenly vision and knew not what to do Acts 10. 17. And shal your sinful Popes then be infallible who will believe it Is it not then
lamentable that ye resolve your faith into humane testimony yea into that which is a very lie the Popes infallibility Were it not safer to make Scripture your ground then to build upon this sandie foundation and so river your selves incurably into errour Reply You runne out upon the Popes titles till in the end you make him a Demi-God Papist Reply imputing this as that by way of calumny to us Whereas all the Apostles were equal in power and dignity say you Matth. 20. 26. Where brist only forbiddeth spiritual Superiours to exercise that power with pride and tyrrany as did the Princes of the Gentiles but with humility and meekness as himself did Yet he there expresseth a greater and a lesser a superiour and inferiour amongst them as he saith more clearly in Luke 22. 26. he that is amongst you greatest let him be as the lesser and he who is chief as he who would serve them You cite Cyprian saying the Apostles were equal in dignity but suppresing the following words that Christ disposed the order of unity beginning with Peter whom in his epist ad Julianum he calleth both head and root of his Church All that followeth is that Moses spoke unadvisedly the Propher Elisha was ignorant of some things the Prophet Nathan made a retractation and St. Peter controuled the Heavenly vision To shew the Prophets and Apostles were not infallible save in penning the Scripture and so that the Pope is not such This is but a vain rapsodie to colour your own unsetled belief and contradiction in doctrine but nothing against us For suppose they had erred in these things that concerned not their doctrine all that you can inferre by comparison is that the Pope may erre in the like But as in penning the word of GOD they were infallible were they not also in preaching of it Or is not the high Bishop in all Councils as in the representative Church infallible in subscribing approving and confirming her decrees If the same decrees of the Council be infallible So that when you deny the Pope as head with the Bishops in general Councils as chief men to be infallible you deny the infallibility of the Church which I have sufficiently shewed reflecting on your sixth Answer Duply You labour to prove imparity amongst Prote ∣ stants Duply the Apostles from Luke 22. 26. and would have us to believe that the Papal Monarchy is there which is like the consequence of Mr. Vaux in his Catechism proving Image worship from the second Command For it is clear from verse 30. that albeit Kingly government was in the state yet it should not be so in the Church And that tyrranie is not the only thing forbidden here appeareth from this that somewhat is interdicted to Church-men which is granted to others but tyrrany is licensed to none Compare Matth. 20. 25. with Luke 22. 25. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the one place is expressed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the other Then it is not only inhibited here Beside the 20. Matth. which you call unclear is most clear he that will be greatest seeking to exalt himself shal be least for he shal be abased And be who is called greatest in Luke 22. is opposed to the youngest the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verse So by this opposition the greatest is the eldest or the greatest in gifts who should be humble self-denyed Ministers as if they were not so priviledged See 1. Peter 5. 3. To the place of Cyprian cited ye answer nothing Only you alleage that I suppress what followeth in stead of the citation you take your self to another place ad Julianum where he caâ—leth Peter first in order and this we do not deny But what will that make for his visible Monarchy For sure I am dic Ecclesiae Matth. 18. will resure that to the worldâ— end This is confirmed by Cyprians own practise for saith he Cyprian epist. 6. ad Clerum de cura Paup Ab initio Episcopatus mei nihil statui agere sine consensis cleri plebis See Cyprian epist 52. al Antonium and there you will perceive that your Pope is not like Cornelius of whom he speaketh for he was chosen Clericorum omnium testimonio plebis qui adfuit suffragio The faithful Martyr was much for peace unity and order and being infested with the Novatians he saith inde sunt nata schismata quod sacerdoti DEI non obtemperatur and telleth that by way of regrate But when he writteth to Cornelius he calleth him frater and no more Where then was your Popedom But ye equal your Pope to the Prophets and Apostles who penned the Scripture which is an odious comparison not worthy of an answer But forgetting your self you say the Pope in the Council then it is not the Pope alone of whose Monarchy we are here speaking and ridiculously you subjoyn if the Council be infallible what language is this The Pope is infallible in subscribing the decree of a counsel if the Council be infallible I say neither of them is infallible so your faith is resolved into a lie You would seem to hang the Popes infallibilitie on the sentence of a council if it be so the Pope sealing their decrees is infallible accidentally and relatively not in himself Others hang the infallibility of the Council on the Pope so a fallible council may consequently be infallible and if he ratifie the sentence of a Session it is all one with an Oecumenick-council All these crotcheâ—s are the pillars of your faith which are worm-eaten proppes to which I have spoken formerly in answer to your mentioned reflection 20. Ye make Christ as many Bodies aâ— their be administrations of the Supper § 20 Inst. by that your Transubstantiation Whereas Scripture giveth him but one natural Body which the Heaven must contain till the restitution of all things Act. 3. 21. And we believe in our Creed that he ascended to Heaven from thence he will come to judge quick and dead Ye break not the Bread contrar to the Scripture 1. Cor. 10. 16. Yea ye deny that Bread is there after the consecration contrar both to sense and reason And whereas Christ entered within the Vail not that he should offer himself often An unbloody sacrifice expiatory of sin under the Gospel is contrar to Scripture Heb. 9. 22. Heb. 9. 25. And by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified Heb. 10. 14. Ye make as many bodily offerings of Jesus Christ both for dead and living as there be Masses Reply You have many false accusations Papists Reply as formerly but no witness or warrand It is to be altogether ignorant of our terms to say that we give Jesus Christ as many Bodies as there be administrations of the Sacrament of the Supper For as we teach one and the same Body is given in every one of our administrations So we believe that he ascended to Heaven that the Heaven containeth
and without Christ can do nothing Iohn 15 5. If you say more speak it out for it will be plain Pelagianism Exhorrations and communications are means to make us willing and obedient It is not in our power to think a good thought as of our selves dare you deny this Why then fall you fondly on us speaking with the Scripture Luke 17. 10. By grace we are saved freely through faith and eternal life is the gift of GOD the reward is a free remuneration and may be without our merits we grant free-will in Augustins sense and Jansenius proveth that this is true liberty by arguments which were never yet answered But we do disclaim Jesuitical indifferencie because it taketh away divire providence the power of grace and setteâ—h up anti-providences from the will of man Because we sin willingly who can deny that we are punished justly Neither take we the Scripture Catalogue from the Iewes but make use of reason testimonies from old Writters universal consent to be a porch for eâ—trie to the knowledge of the numerick controversie and how can you say so of our Catalogue seeing we mantain no book to be Scripture but such as ye allow And are ye not helped by the Jewes herein as wel as we Only we lay that the authority of the Scripture dependeth not on humane testimonie as upon its principal foundation nor yet upon unwritten tradition because divine faith must be begotten by a divine testimonie And we believe the Scriptures authority and truth side lâ—â—ina because the Lord hath spoken it In this true faith must be finally resolved else it is not divine It is a calumny to say we patch the Word seeing we make Scripture the only rule of our faith There be none in the Christian Church who adde such patches to the word of GOD as ye Our Reformation had authority both from Heaven and men on earth The Lawes of the Land can restifie this which are yet in vigor for it and against you And there may be new light in time of darkness which was formerly dimmed or put out which light is the good old light proceeding from the Father of lights If ye condemned this the world should have still continued Arrian when it was over-clouded with it and all Reformation even the Scripture one is unlawful see you not your absurdity here Yea it was prophesied Dan. 12. 4. that in the latter times knowledge should encrease and light also be extended but light without verity deserveth not the name Privat men have the liberty of discerning allowed to them Acts 17. 11. 1. Io. 4. 1. Yea such may have publict spirits and be called to publict employments But what you mean by this I conceive not For the Gospel worship which we mantain hath the consent of all the Scriptures Churches and primitive Fathers as is formerly proved to the full We wish the hearts of all our Pastors may be established by grace that they may be subjected to him who hath the government on his shoulder and by their faith working by love glorifie the chief Shepheard of the stock We will not recriminat ralling for railing but it were easie to shew Ye have a Church composed state-wayes Your policie devouâ—eth all pâ—â—ty Your superstitious vowes against marraâ—ge all chastity Your impeaching of the Scriptures all divine verity Your blind allegiance to the Pope all loyalty Your superstitious buskings all puritie Your worship in an unknown tongue all fervencie Your addition to the one Sacrament and mutitation of the other all sincerity Your universal infallible supremacie all primitive antiquity It is not long since this Reply came to my hand at the first view whereof I intended to take in and discuss arguments proposed by Dr. Vane in that Pamphlet entituled The lost sheep found And these contained in another of the same kind called Presbytries tryall And to survey the other two entituled The Touchstone and Fâ—at lux But finding the substance of all these in this reflecter and that he hath little of his own but maketh malt for the most of their barley by answering this all the foure are macerially answered which a discerning Reader will find to be true Now to close I obtest all who read this Vindication of the reformed Religion to consider the cause seriously without partialitie pride passion prejudice Remember that Iames 2. 1. Have not the faith of our Lord Iesus with respect of persons And the spirit of truth lead you into all truth The spirit of errour and lies be rebuked and resisted by the Lord That a pure offering may be offered to Him from the rising of the Sun to the going down thereof FINIS A POSTSCRIPT Containing an Advertisement and Advice to the Merchants of DVNDIE who travell abroad that they be not ensnared with the fopperies of Poperie AFter the writting of this VINDICATION I judged it expedient to give this word of Advertisement and Advice to such as be called by their affairs to negotiaâ— in Countreys where the Popish worship is only professed and mantained Because many travellers return home from these places as that French fool came back from Rome who passing through Ravenna least he should return empty to his friends gathered in that Forrest a multitude of bees and flees which being closed into a cloath bagge he poured forth amongst his relatives to their prejudice and offence And all they gained by his voyage was made up of stings and buzings So when travellerâ— return from forrain Nations either Neutral Nullisidians or leavened with Popish saperstition what is their purchase Nothing that can edifie any Will ever practical Atheism Gallioeâ— temper or tampering betwixt truth and errour advantage a man at the long runne Not at all These will sting like a serpent more then themselves a wound and dishonour may they have by it but nothing else The hazard which some Travellers tunne cannot be unknown to you For the man who in this City hath become Popish and stingeth some is thought by all that know him to have received the first dye thereof abroad when he travelled thither And although the flecks of that pestiferous malady broke nor forth immediatly after his return till the Carduns Maledictus of prejudice against some fellow Citizens made them appear yet there probably he was first infected Now if he who was gifted above many Merchants catched so sore a back-ward fall abroad that he hath now turned his back on that Church wherein he was born and iostered Have ye not reason with full purpose of heart to cleave to the truth of GOD which can only set you free It is not for nought that our Saviour said to his Disciples Luke 17. 32. Remember Lots wife It is certain that the Church of SCOTLAND is a great eye-sore to Papists and they craftily lay snareâ— to seduce her members at home and abroad Their hooks are feathered with variety of colours and the Convent at Rome de Propagan fide furnisheth many Emissaries who
Religion to reproach and stumbleth many The Iews are hindred to come in by their superstitious worship The Eastern Church which is the most ancient agreeing almost with us in all doctrinals as their Confession of Faith emitted by Cyrill the Patriarch of Constantinople testifieth is much offended at their Church dividing way We are vexed with their plots blots underminding courses They sowe cockle amongst our wheat and tares in our field while men sleepe Of all men on Earth in any visible incorporation pretending to Christianity they have made the greatest breach in the Catholick Church and taken the tittle to themselves contrar to all reason The Paganes perceiving our breaches are hardened in their blind way When their were not so great breaches in the Christian Church Chrysostom on the Galatians bringeth in the Gentile speaking thus Vellent fieri Christianus sed nescio cui adhaream multae sunt inter vos pugnae seditiones tumultus nescio quod dogma eligam quod praeseram singuli enim dicunt ego verum dico i. e. I would be a Christian but know not to whom I shal adhere there be such differences amongst you I know not what to choose what to preferre every one saith he hath the truth on his side For this we are derided by Iews and Gentiles and the Church of Christ is divided This obâ—â—â—tion may be soon solved by these who adhere to the Scripâ—â—re sensed by sound antiquitie But to them who are without it maketh a great muster and is a mountaine in the way which none have towred up more then the Romanists by craft and might they have stated a faction and fixed a Schism in the universal church Is it not high arrogance that a town in Italy and a pettie Prince there should make a monopolie and obtrude their ware pro arbitratu imperio sub poena anathematis upon all the Christians in the world what have we to do with an Italian Prince and who gave him right over us Albeit these rents made in the church by secular interests be matter of mourning yet there be a providence in it and this is permitted by the wisdom of GOD that these who are approven may be made manifest 1. Cor. 11. 19. Vt sides habendo tentationem habeat probationem as saith Tertull. contra Haeres cap. 1. Divina veritas calida oppositione agitatur ut adversus illos adversarios desendi possit considerari diligentius intelligi clarius praedâ—cari constantius ab adversariorum motis quaestionibus discendi existat occasio Divine truth is cunningly opposed that it may be defended more vigorously considered more attentively understood more clearly preached more instantly and that from the questions of adversaries we may have the more occasion of learning truth Saith Aug. de civit DEI. lib. 16. cap. 2. It is noted by Historians that in the tenth Centurie called the unhappie Age there were no Heresies started not opposed they were then asleep and cared neither for truth nor errour Setiousness about these matters was at that time suspended Yet it was infelix seculum it had been better for some that the tares had appeared and then trysted with speedie opposition Albeit evil be not good yet sometimes bonum est malum esse as Aug telleth us in his Enchiridion it is good that evil be qui bonus est non sineret maluÌ„ esse nisi omnipotens etiam de malo faceret bene He would not suffer evil to be if he being Omnipotent could not bring good out of it VVe are not therefore to cast away our confidence nor become despondent albeit Poperie encreaseth Papists way hold The only wise Lord knoweth why it is so how to order this broken condition for good VVhen they like the old Pagans at Rome who fathered Portenta Gnosticorum aliorum Haereticorum the absurdities of Gnostickes and other Hereticks upon the orthodoxe Christians as Church Historie telleth us blot our doctrine worship with all the reproaches which malice can devise who can tel but the holie providence of GOD may bring us out amongst the pots with our feathers like yellow gold And he who worketh manie of his workes by mean instruments may put such to it that his strength may be perfected in weakness I have contrar to my designe engaged into this debate and do acknowledge that I am a weak sinful man my inclination is averse from janglings and I have had more satisfaction in going about the work of my Calling in practicals of Religion nor ever I had in penning or publishing this debate But what could I do Adversaries invaded the flock pursued me within the ports when my back was at the wall and I had no purpose for warre stealed the sheep out of my bosome and averred considentlie that they were sed with rot-grasse in stead of wholsome food Should I not in this exigence defend with such weapons as the Lord would afford It may he said that the adversarie is stronge at home and abroad but the Lord on high is more mighty then the noise of many waters So farre as I am concerned I rather would choose to fall in the field nor turne my back or by sinful silence suffer the truth to be over-laid and stifled To some this may seem a light matter and needless worke yet if all be well understood it will not be found such The found of a testimonie for the truth in the case of subversion is an ominous duâ—ie if it were for no other end but this to leave a vvitness not to be involved in the shout Evetiâ— Minister of the Gospel is bound within his station to promove Gospel intorests to which Popery is highlie prejudicial to convince convert confute gain-sayers to confirme the weak and undeceive the simple I am much mistaken if this be superflous worke seeing it is one of the ends of our Calling It is to be râ—â—â—sited indeed that by debates for our just possession past prescriptioÌ„ we should be diverted from more comfortable and edifying worke seeing ordinarlie this way is so unsuccesful that few adversaries once engageing use to yeeld and will rather act their partes to defend one errour with another ne videantur â—rrasse nor with divine Aug make a retractation VVhich evidenceth much pride and unmortified self-love but very smal respect to the Gospel Yet cura officii iâ— ours and ourâ— evenâ—us belongeth to the Lord who will make a good account of all his affaires cause the fâ—ot of adversaries slidalin due 〈◊〉 Now Sir seeing I resolved upon these considerations to publish this Vindication following the custoÌ„ I have sheltered iâ— under the Patroâ—iny of your Name so much valued for ReligioÌ„ Vertue When HieroÌ„ wriâ—teth to Dardanus he calleth him Christianorum nobilissime nobilium Christianissime I will not make use of that compellation to you I know ye love not so well words to proclaim you good as those which may make you better It may be said
We are bound as Christians not only to bear the scourge of tongues but more also for the Gospels sake when called to it Augustin said to Petilian his tongue was not the fan I am a man in the floore of Christ and if good grain will be laid up in the Garner blow the wind as it will So we may say to such râ—ilers yea if the adversarie would write not only pasquils but a book of this kind we may bind it to our shoulders and wear it as our crown For the Lord will in due time wipe of the rebuke of his people Is 25. 8 which they bear for his Name That saying of Bernard is sweet Cimbae me comitto in tanto discrimine confidens in Domine qui pro illo recte lâ—quentibus pro illo laborautibus dicit Adsum 〈◊〉 run the reaâ—k trusting in the Lord who hath promised presence to all who speak and act rightlie for him And heroickly Luther to the same purpose if truth be on my side quidni pro viribus agam why should â—â—ot do my uttermost sim homicida sim adulter â—â—â—do silentii non arguar dum Christus patitur Let them call me what they wil if I be not guilty of sinful silence when Christ suffereth in his truth It is a very smal matter upon this account to be judged of men 1. Cor. 4. 3. these things are light and heavy as we ordinarily take them If this strain of reproaching did siste at us it were not so much but they reproach the written word of GOD and sentence it boldly of imperfection contrar to Psalm 19. 7. 2. Tim. 3. 15. 17. and of obscuritie as if it were not a light and lantherue to our paths Psalm 119. 105. Yea they shamelesly averre that the authority of the Church and Pope of Rome is greater to us nor Scripture Is it not lamentable that men called Christians for pompous selfish interests should laboriously studie to cast aspersions upon the unâ—ported word of GOD and depretiate it so in the world May not this render Popery suspicious to any knowing man that the abettors thereof decline the written word of GOD to be the sole umpire of faith and manners and endeavour to discredit it before the Nations which is the touch-stone of truth and best fence we have against Satan and all his complices such non sunt audiendi saith holy Aug. Confes lib. 6. cap. 5. they should not in this be heard far less obeyed Their second device when they are pressed with the truth is to coin evil grounded distinctions and with this ley money to make merchandise of poor simple souls Needle headed men have strangely acted their inventions herein and cruÌ„bled Gospel truths thus that he is now thought the best and most learned Papist who can findout subtile subterfugies and receptacles against plain Scripture verities So that the Romanists are the great foxes which eat up the tender vines Other Sectaries who separat themselves from the Church builded on the foundation Eph. 2. 20. and deface the doctrine which is according to Godliness are of lesser magnitude That ye may know what sort of proppes uphold their rotten building take these five instances First When we prove that the Scripture is the rule of faith this they grant in part but say they it is a partial not the total rule they must sowder somewhat of their own tradition to it erre they acknowledge it for a rule This is a reasonless shift If the rule be not total and perfect in its own kinde for its own ends it is no rule at all but a semi-rule regula nec appositionem nec ablationem admittit saith Theophilact on the 3. chap. to the Philip. Nothing can be added to or taken from a rule the law of nature the law of reason are sufficient for their own ends so is the written word of GOD for salvation When we say Secondly that the word of GOD cannot have authority from men therefore the Scripture is judge of the Church and not the Church of the Scripture They answer by a leaden distinction that it hath authority from the Church in respect of us but not in respect of it self This is a reasonless evasion for all authority is an act quoad extra and relative to us The Scriptures have excellency and dignity internal but all its authority is external and relative to men So that distinction is null If the Scripture hath its authority from the testimony of their Church then their faith must be ultimatly resolved into their Church testimony as more authoritative nor the word of GOD. Propter quod unumquodque est tale illud ipsum est magis tale Therefore Popish faith by this maxime is not divine but ecclesiastick and humane Now the Church and faith of Believers should be builded immediatly upon the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles Iesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone Eph. 2. 20. Therefore the Pope with his traditions cannot found the Church nor the faith of Christians other foundation can no man lay then that which is laid 1. Cor. 3. 11. To this they returne a distinction that Iesus Christ is the principal and the Pope the secondary foundation seeing it was said to Peter upon this rock I will build my Church This subterfuge in like the rest if this was said to Peter personally as Tertul. de praescrip thinketh then not to his successours suppose the Pope were the man a personal individual prerogative is incoÌ„municable If it was not personal but to him and his successours then if the Apostle Paul were living the Pope behoved to be above him in dignity and Church prerogative by reason Peter was above him and he succeedeth to his superioritie This to any discerner may appear absurd Beside the Church is builded on the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Eph. 2. 20. then not upon one Apostle take the words as ye will The true meaning of these words upon this rock I will build my Church is this the confession of Peter concerning Iesus Church the Son of the living GOD was a â—ock on which the Church was builded This interpretation is authorized by Augustin who interpreteth the words thus Tract ult in Iohan. serm 13. de verbis Apost he giveth also strong reason for it lib. 1. retract cap. 21. non enim dictum est Petro tu es petra sed tu es Petrus which reason Valentia challengeth in vain disp 1. to 3. quaest 1. punc 7. Further there câ—nnot be two foundations if we speak properly If no man can lay another as the Scripture speaketh why should it be asserted Christ Iesus alone set forth in the doctrine of Prophets and Apostles is that solid foundation on which we build all our salvation he is that sure foundation laid in Zion and no wayes can this without blasphemie be applyed to the Pope seeing the Apostle Peter maketh application of it to Christ only 1. Peter 2. 6. Thirdly When we
prophecie it vvill make against the Pope of Rome vvho giveth himself out for sole Bishop and all under him his Vicars onlie This is clear from the historie of the Trent Council lib. 7. pag. 599. Father Simon the Florentine there speaketh after the same tenour When it is demanded whither any Bishop be Jure Divino One must answer affirmativelie One onlie the Successour of Peter And thus the famous saying of Cyprian must be expounded there is but one Bishoprick and every Bishop holdeth a part thereof in solidum otherwise it cannot bâ—e defended that the government of the Church is the most perfect of all that is Monarchical but must necessarlie â—all into an Oligarchie All the Popes Prelats did speak then the same language will not this make him solus Episcopus so that in Estius sense he must be concluded to be Rex superbiae because he is sole universal Bishop The primitive Fathers studied modestie charitie humilitie But Head of the whole Church Prince of Priests infallible universal Monarch were names unknown to them Yet this is the Popes motto summarei the great foundation sine qua corruit Ecclesia saith Bellarmin in the forecited place Further worship in an unknown tongue was not heard in the Church till it was commanded by Witalianus in the 7. Cent. saith Platina and Aquinas on the 1. Cor. 14. telleth that the worship in the primitive Church was performed in the vulgar language The mutilation of the Sacrament of the Supper by withholding the cup froÌ„ the people was unknown to ant quitie For Valentia de legitimo usâ— Eucharistiae cap. 10. saith that the receiving of the Sacrament under one kind came into the Church by no decree but by the custom of the people not long before the Council of Constance at which time the custom was made a law The with-holding Scripture from people was detested in the primitive Church Was it not decreed in the Council of Nice saith Agrippa that no Christian should be without a Bible espcially if he could read in Augustin Chrysostom and Hieroms days the people are required to search the Scriptures according to the rule Iohn 5 39. Tutius ambulatur per Scripturas saith Aug. lib. 3. de doct Chri. cap. 28 nor by humane traditions or glosses Some names of things occurring in antiquitie are preserved in the Roman Church but it will be found that the Fathers understood them not in that sense nor made use of them as they do The nature of things new in Poperie is unanswerable to the old names as snal afterward appear By this we may perceive that Popery was not from the beginning The mysterie of iniquitie encreasing vain men set their posts beside the Lords posts their thresholds beside his Ezek. 43. 8. And making up a bodie of superstitious inventions have placed Religion in these which they hold forth to the world as eldest and have so falne out with Scripture truths that they are not ashamed to accuse them and their professours of noveltie heresie c. But be it known to all that we wil have no Religion to be called ours younger nor the Apostles and primitive Christians It shal eitheâ— be sixteen hundred years old it shal be founded on the Scripture sensed by pute antiquitie or else not outs Beside this their foistery that which is foisted poysoneth souls and filleth them with the East-wind For by their merits and mediatours they derogat from the honour of Christ and from the faith of Christians seeing he is is so precious to them who believe 1. Pet. 2. 7. It is not strange that contrar to Scripture they will deny the imputation of the righteousness of Christ Iesus to the blessed Elect and that imputed righteousness of Saints is affirmed by them to profit others and relieve them from temporal punishment As if the death and merits of the Mediatour were not of sufficient value to save us frâ—m all evil They say that no man can have certaintie of SalvatioÌ„ by faith and yet without any revelation they will canonize others as Saints Can any be more certain of the salvation of another nor his own Their doctrine concerning the Priests intention taketh away all certaintie of faith if the Priest do not seriously intend what he professeth to do there is no Sacrament no consecration no ordination And who but the Lord searcheth the heart and knoweth human intentions By making the Body of Christ now in Heaven to be corporally present in the Sacrament of the Supper when it is administred they deny many articles of the Christian Creed they strengthen the heresie of the Valentinians who said that his Bodie was phantastical not real they contradict the Scripture which calleth it the fruit of the vine after consecration Luke 22. 18. And Aug. tract 5. in Iohn who saith that the bread remaineth bread after the consecration and the Body of Christ a real Body after the Resurrection By their doctrine of Free-will they make free Grace to stand at the beck of the wil whither it shal be operative or not Yea they make providence in its acting dependent on the will For this is their tener GOD worketh because the will consenteth not e contra see Bellar de gratia libero arbitrio lib. 4. cap. 15. Will it not follow then that we should thank our will for our Conversion and intreat it to make grace efficacious and providence effectual Seeing it hath a negative voice in all these matters And what is more prejudicial to the providence and worship of GOD or to the efficacie of grace nor this tener which Aug refuteh well in his Enchrid cap 32. By invocation of Saints the worship of Reliques and the whole house of their imagerie they give the glory of the Lord to another and are reproved Is 42. 8. Yea there be many whom they invocat of whom they are not certain if either they were Saints or lived in the world Cassander who lived in communion with Rome acknowledgeth that much superstition is sostered by this way Consult â—1 Is it not then soul-damning By their distinction of mortal and venial sins by Purgatory by prayer for the dead by their absolution under so bare a degree of contrition they make people sin securely for under the name of vâ—nial sins they comprehend grievous crimes as sivearing by the wounds of Christ Per Membra Christi est venialis irreverentia si reverenter juretur nullâ—â—s videtur esse peccatum saith Valentia tom 3. disp 6. quast 7. punct 3. Legerdemaine in vendition ubi quantuns quale mutatur may be venial si materia sit levis saith Tolet. de 7. pecc cap. 49. whereas diverse measures without exception are declared abomination Pro. 20. 10. All these remedies which they apply after death make men less diligent in dutie while they live And if Purgatory be the Popes peculiar as they call it he must have little love to Souls and too much to his own gain who will not
release those Prisoners sooner and sill some rooms in Heaven faster How readie are we to delay duty from time to time And doth not this baite our humour How jejune and bare is their contrition which goeth before confession and absolution Yet may prove sufficient Hear Suarez tom 4. disp 4. who saith a slender grief is sufficient And Tolet. lib. 3. de instr Sacerdot a smal degree of grief can wipe away a great degree of sin What is this but daubing with untempered morter and putting kercheifes under arme holes a strengthening of the hands of the wicked that he should not return from his evil way By toleration of Brothels and preferring in votaries fornication to lawful marriage Is not a wide door opened to obâ—cene sensualitie Agrippa de vanit witnesseth that the Pope hath tribute payed to him by all the whore-houses at Rome Therefore Pope Sixtus builded the nobile lâ—panâ—r a notable Brothel house Bell. de Monach. lib. 2. cap. 30. saith that fornication in such is a less sin nor marriage What will debauch the chastitie if this do not Tolet. lib. 4. de instr sacerd telleth us that a man is bound to sanctifie the Sabbath but is not bound to sanctifie it well for he may hunt travel and make market on that day Is not this infectious doctrine Now Christian Reader if thou be serious for salvation I charge thee to pause here a little and consider if this can be the way of holiness wherein the Prophers Apostles and primitive Fathers walked to Heaven Therefore as thou tenderest thy own salvation and consolation bewar of it this leadeth to the chambers of death Hath falne man who enclineth naturally to wickedness need of such incentives to sin and lenitives when he hath sinned Or can he who is of puter eyes then to behold iniquity approve such as break his Commandments and teach men so to do Can the tree be good where the fruiâ— is so bâ—d None will believe it who have understanding unless they be willing to be deceived It is the stain of any Christian to desert the good old way in which they are commanded to walk Ier. 6. 16. and to be fooled out of their Religion by some groundless distinctions and ingenious devices of subtile men who stent snares and lay themselves in waâ—te to deceive the simple If a man born and trained in the Reformed Church shal hanker after Popery he is foolish in so doing if he purpose nâ—t to swallow the whole bulk of it For Bellarmin saith they cannot quite one â—ota otherwise their Church were not to be reputed infallible and if he resolve to do this I must say he hath an Ostrich-stomach and is a great latitudinarian Further it is to be feared that at the next alteration if tempted â—e fall into Atheism total infidelitie For the weapoÌ„s by which the Papists wage warre with the Scriptures and the Reformed Church built thereon are the same which Celsus used of old against Christianity it self which Origen refuteth at length he impeached the Scriptures and quarrelled the Christians for their rents for the calumnies of the world c. If these have beat thee from the Reformed Religion hast thou not to fear that they may shake thee in all and turn thee at last Nullisidian As they make use of Pagan arguments so of the Jewish for they reasoned just so against Christ Jesus and his Apostles By what authority where is your visible succession have any of the rulers Scribes or Pharisees beleeved on him c. It hath pleased the Lord to furnish us with good defences but it is strange that they drawing many of their shafts from Pagan and Jewish Antichristian quivers should not be ashamed of their way And it is more strange that knowing men if conscientions should be ensnared by them It is known to such as are not ignorant of Church history that when Christianity came first into this Ysle they had nothing to do with Rome for a long time they were strangers and adversaries to her soveraignty and would not exchange the dyet of Easter for her commands nor have communion with these messengers who came from her Bede called Venerable telleth lib 2. hist cap. 4. that in the beginning of the 7. cent after Augustine the Monk came to Brittain he found them no way like the Romanists noâ— could he prevaile with them to conforme to Rome not so much as in the administration of Baptism or observation of Easter And when one Laurentius his successor endeavoured the same and thought the Scots would be more tractable he found the plaine contrare as he writteth to the Abbates in Scotland for Dagamus the Scotish Bishop who came to speak with them refused to eat or drink with Laurentius or stay in the roome where he was So little communion would they here have then with Romanists Now that Church is farre more corrupt then it was in Gregories dayes and ours more pure and enlightened then it was at that time What phrenesie must it be therefore in them now who are members of this Church to enter into communion with Romanists or tamper with or haunker after their way Let all who love the Truth stand in awe thus to sin we have a safer surer way for Salvation nor Popery wherein if we walk peace and mercy shal be on us Gal. 6. 16. Least this Preface swell disproportionably I will offer four advyees to my Countrey-men that they may be perswaded from Poperie and then close with a word more particularly to the Inhabitants of this Place First If ye would guard well against Popery have a full perswasion of the Truth from the ground of divine revelation in the holy Scriptures 2. Tim. 1. 13. 14. Hold fast the forme of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith and love which is in Christ Iesus that good thing which is commited to thee keep by the holy Ghost which dwelleth in us For men not perswaded by divine faith like to young schollars evil grounded in their principles are easily put from their grounds and tossed to and froe with every wind of doctrine Persuasisti mihi Domine saith Aug. lib. 6. confes cap. 5. this keeped him fast When once divine Truth sinketh into the heart ye will have a sincere love to it for it self and not for any by respects or worldly advantages Otherwayes when truth florteth only in the head and men are bated with worldly temptations and selfish interests they are soon drawn away from the truth which in their affection is postponed to that which they love better And GOD in his holy justice giveth them up to stronge delusions for their hypocrisie and want of sinceritie 2. Thess 2. 10. 11. the Lord hath promised the spirit to them who ask him Luke 11. 13. If ye love the truth seek the grace and strength of the holy Spirit to lead you into all truth and labour to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus
use of that element ordained by Christ our Lord and joyned with a true faith because the defect of faith doth prejudice the integritie of the Sacrament 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. We believe that Baptism is a Sacrament instituted by the Lord which unless a man hath received he hath not coÌ„munion with Christ from whose death buriall and glorious Resurrection the whole vertue and efficacy of Baptism doth proceed Therefore in the same forme wherein our LORD hath coÌ„manded in the Gospel we are certain that to those who be Baptized both Original and Actual sins are pardoned so that whosoever have been washed In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost are regenerate cleansed justified But concerning the repetitioÌ„ of it we have no coÌ„mand to be Re-baptised therfore we must abstaine from this incoÌ„venience 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. We beleeve that the other Sacrament was ordained of the Lord which we call the Eucharist For in the night wherein he was betrayed taking bâ—ead and blessing it he said to his Apostles Take ye â—at this is my Body and when he had taken the Cup he gave thanks and said Drinke ye all of this this is my Blood which was shed for many do this in remâ—mbâ—ance of me And Paul addeth for as often as ye shall eat of this Bread and drinke of this Cup ye do shew the Lords death this is the pure and lawful institution of this wonderful Sacrament in administration whereof we confess and profess a true and real presence of Christ our Lord but yet such â—â— one as Faith offereth â—o us not such as devised Transubstantiation teacheth For we belive the faithful do eat the Body of Christ in the supper of the Lord not by breaking it with the teeth of the Body but by perceiving it with the sense feeling of the Soul sith the Body of Christ is not that which is visible in the Sacrament but that which Faith spiritually apprehendeth and offereth to us from whence it is true that if we believe we do eat and partake if we do not believe we are destitute of all the fruit of it We believe consequently that to drink the Cup in the Sacrament is to be partaker of the true Blood of our Lord Iesus Christ in the same manner as we affirmed of the Body for as the Authour of it commanded concerning his Body so he did concerning his Blood which commandment ought neither to be dismembred nor maymed according to the fancy of mans arbitrement yea rather the institution ought to be kept as it was delivered to us When therefore we have been partakers of the Body and Blood of Christ worthily and have communicated intirely we acknowledge our selves to be reconciled united to our head of the same Body with certaine hope to be coheires in the Kingdome to come 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. We believe that the Souls of the dead are either in blessedness or in damnation according as every one hath done for as soon as they remove out of the Body they passe either to Christ or into hell for as a man is found at his death so he is judged and after this life there iâ— neither power nor opportunity to repent In this life there is a time of Grace they therefore who be justified here shal suffer no punishment hereafter but they who being not justified do dye are appointed for everlasting punishments By which it is evident that the fiction of Pargatory is not to be admitted but in the truth it is determined that every one ought to repent in this life and to obtaine remission of his sins by our Lord Iesus Christ if he will be saved And let this be the end 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. This compendious and brief Confession of us we conjectur will be a contradiction to them who are pleased to slander maliciously accuse us and unjustly persecute us But we trust in our Lord Jesus Christ and hope that he will not relinquish the cause of his faithful ones nor let the rod of wickednessly upon the lot of the righteous Daâ—id in Constantinople in the Moneth of March 1629. CYRILL Patriarch of Constantinople Courteous Reader thy favour is desired in some escapes of the Press these which are but literal not altering the sense pardon and pass by these which are more gross amend as followeth In Epist Ded. Page 5. Line 10. Read callida l â—0 for way hold Read waxe bold In the Epistle to the Reader p. 8. l. 2 for Church r. Christ p. 16. l. ult for the r. theâ—e p. 18. l. 12. for calumnies r. calamities page 19. line 27. for perswaded read disswaded page 21. line 17. for δ◠r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 26. l. 5. for 17 r. 14. In the Debate p 8. l. 13. for although all r. Apocryphal p 19. l antep del lay p. 33 l. ult r. proceed p. 34. l. 17 for Paliner r. Parmen p 37. l. 21 for a r. the. p. 46 l. antep r. Praxeam p. 48 l. 6. r. conjuncta p. 69. l. 25. for tradition r. citation p. 88. l. 23. r. lament p. 103. l 20. del Thirdly p. 107. l. â— r mortalitate p 121. l. 13. r. were made p. 129. l. 18. r. breasts p. 130. l. 19. for of r. in p. 138 l. 19. r. statue p. 160. l. 9. for according to r. accordingly p 161 l. penulâ— r. non continentur p. 175. from l. 10. to 17. read all that period in p. 177. l. 1. for that r. not p. 234. l. 20 adde or as some 23. p. 268. l 23. r. let them testifie p. 270 l. 25. r. comminations p. 284. l. 17. r in company p. 284. l 5. r. none can In some copies though but in few there will be found these errours in Ep. Ded. p. 2 Peope for Pope p. 3. l. 9. Sacraments for Sacrament l. 20. modestly and humbly for modestie humilitie p. 4. l. 17. underminding for undermining l. 18. teares for tares in pres of the Greek Confession twise δ for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If any testimonies be repeated that is to be imputed to the Impunger not to the Defender A DIALOGUE Betwixt a Papist and a reformed PROFESSOUR who protesteth against the Errours of Popery written for information of the Simple who love the truth that they be not ensnared by the temptations of the time PAPIST QUESTION I SEEing this Age is so controversall how shall it be discerned who hath the Truth PROTE ¦ STANT Answer A By the Scriptures The written word of God is the only infallible determiner of faith and manners It hath livine Authoâ—ity heavenly Majesty to a right discerner it maketh spirituall impressâ—ons on the soâ—l to it as chief judge on Earth all â—â—â—eals should be made Is 8. 20. To the â—â—w and the Testimony Papists Reply To this Answere a Papist replyeth that it is not satisfying and rendereth five reasons why the Scipture cannot be
the determiner of faith and manners First Because the chief and greatest Controversie is about scripture it â—â—lf viz What 〈…〉 scripture what not Now if it be the determiner of faith as you speak in 〈…〉 is the Catalogue of Canonical bookes 〈◊〉 How may it be proved against Luthâ—â— that St. Iames his Epistle is Canonical 〈…〉 against others that Nicodemus and S. Thomas Gospells are not Or if you reject Tobias Judith the bookes of Wisdom Ecclesiasticus and the Maccabees because the Synagogue of the Jewes did so why â—o â—ou not also deny Christ to be the Messias with them Answer This return is rather an evasion then solid reply and is satisfied in the resolution Protest Duply of the sixt Question to which in reason it ought to be referred yet seing tumultuously diverse things are here heaped together I shall sort and discuss them thus First There is no Christian Church which maketh it a Controversie at all whether scripture be the word of God so this is not the chiefest and greatest Controvesie for it is supposed amongst the principles of Christianity and if the Precognita of other science have ex terminis their own notoreiety We should not argument contra negantes principia against them who deny known principles how can this be denyed to Theology seing if we rest not on some principles we must run our selves out of breath and not know where to sist Basil †Basil on Psal 115. telleth 〈…〉 as in every science there be unqueâ—â—â—able principles which are beleeved withoâ—â—â—â—rther demonstration so in the science of 〈◊〉 Theology This is amongst 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scripture is the word of God if any 〈◊〉 this controversall he is an Antiscripturiâ—â— and Paganish Secondly There be no Controversie betwixt us and the Papists in that wherein we are agreed but both are agreed that all the bookes which we receive for Canonicall scripture are the word of God Ergo this is no Controversie If all the bookes of scripture which we mantaine be the word of God our Adversaries being judges then iâ— must determine faith and manners or else our faith is humane for Bellarmine †Bel. de verbo Dei lib. 1. â— 2. sayeth that Scriptura est regula credendi tutissima certissima the written word is a most sure and certaine rule of beleeving So sayeth Aquinas †Aquinas in Tim. 6. This is sufficient for confirming the first Answere and refuting the first Exceptionâ— Yet to follow your impertineut digression from the power of the scripture-bench to the number of the books I Answere Secondly that the doctrine concerning the number of the scripture books or the names of all them who penned these if comparatively considered that is if you compare the present number with that of the Jewish and ancient Church in pâ—â—mitive times of Christianity is not expliâ—â—â— known and beleeved by all Fide divin◠〈◊〉 first but we come to the knowledge of â—â—e number which the primitive Church mantained as we doe to the names and number of other bookes seing the Catalogue of Canonicall bookes is not set down in scripture All this we attaine without the aid of Romish Councills For the Jewes to whom were committed the oracles of God Rom. 3. 1. 2. whom holy Augustin on Ps 40. calleth Capsarios librarios Christianorum these who keeped the bookes of the old Testament for Christians and fulfilled as he saith that word in part The elder shall serve the younger divide the bookes of the old Testament according to the letters of their Alphabet into two and twenty sometimes into foure and twenty as Eusebius sheweth yet never added to nor Lib. 3. cap. 10. altered a book of the Canon only they would suÌ„me up now and then the book of Ruth with the Judges the book of the Lamentations with the Prophecies of Jeremy and at other times againe reckon them by themselves So they sometimes made but one book of Samuel one of the Kings one of the Chronicles in some editions the whole Minor Prophets were reckoned but one book by them As the scription and writting of the bible is and hath been diverse yet the doctrine contained therein is stil the rule under every character so the Canon of the old Testament finished by the Prophet Malachy was ever the same in the Jewish Church what ever way they calculated the number of these bookes Hierom translated the books of the old TestameÌ„t from the Hebrew and he did admit all the books admitted by us So did the Greek and Latine Church neither for ought we can learn from Authors was there any alteration or addâ—tion till the third Council of Carthage then Can. 47. they recoÌ„mended other books as profitable to be read which are Apocryphal The Canon of the New Testament was finished by Iohn the Evangelist who out lived the rest of the Apostles and the number we have not disclaimed In universa ecclesia Christiana sayeth Hierom ad Dardanum And according to the Councill of Laodiâ—â—a Can. 59. these books were numbered is Canonick only and appointed to be read in all the Churches of Syrla this Councill was holden Annno Dom. 364. Although Luther cast at the Epistle of James we receive it Secondly Luther by some Learned is said to have made a retractation of that errour Thirdly In his Preface to his works he desireth that men would read his books with some commiseration and remember that once he was a Monk Fourthly Your own Cajetan said as much against the Epistle of James as Sirtus Senensis telleth us Biblioth lib. 6. will it therefore follow that ye have no Canon Fifthly Stapleton saith Princ. doct lib. 9. cap. 14. in Defens Ecc. Author that it is not as yet peremptorily defined by your Church whither ye may adde moe books to the present number but we of the reformed Church are agreed in this that these books of the Old and New Testament number them who wil were the Canon received read and exponed in the Primitive Church and none can adde to or alter the doctrine therein contained under the pain of Anathema Rev. 22. 19. It is an admirable providence that the Jews such enemies to Christianity keeped these Prophesies of the Scripture uncorrupted So saith holy Augustin lib. de Consensu Evang. cap. 26. yet you deride that as if the Lord could not keep that holy Canon in the Jews hand which is a witness against them and testifies of him to their confusion Jo. 5. 39. so your consequence â—s bad and impertinent Answer Third Although the numbering or penning of the Scripture books comparatively considered be not simply necessary to be known or believed fide Divina But we come to the knowledge of these as to the number or penner of other books yet absolutly considered to any discerner the books of Scripture father themselves Lege in facie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Divina read in the face of them divine approbation as in the
Hereticks and Schismaticks have abused it therefore we should not make use of it as the rule of faith and manners This is a Paralogism and confused rapsodic but I pass it for sons of Babel must daub with untempered mortar and be Babel-like in their way Although these 5. Reasons be answered § 1. sufficiently yet for further satisfaction to the Reader these two particulars shal be discussed Question 1. Whose it is to interpret Scripture R. In the first place it belongeth to the Ministerial Church Pastors and Officers called of GOD to that employment are ordinarily better gifted for that work then other men I say ordinarily because in some cases it may be otherwise and the Lord may raise up extraordinary interpreters this appeareth from 1. Cor. 14. 29. And the judgement of a pure Church in dubious cases should weigh much with privat Christians Secondly Privat Christians may read the Scriptures search for their sense improve them privatly for edification and examine what is said by others for they have the promise to attain Jer. 31. 34. a precept to improve 1. Pet. 4. 10. and a priviledge to try Acts 17. 11. 1. Cor. 10. 15. this judgement of discretion no man can take from them Io. 10. 4. Matth. 7. 15. more then the taste from a man Is not that spirit which dyted the scripure the best interprerer of it But privat men may have that 1. Cor. 2. 15. This their judgement is not authoritative nor judicial yet bindeth themselves and he is a better Christian who followeth then he who stiffleth it so speak all Casuists Chrysost hom 13. in act Apost reproveth such as professed they would be Christâ—ans yet doubted to whom they should adhereâ— have ye not judgement sayeth he and have ye not scriptures Aug. Confes lib. 13. sub sinem cap. 22. cap. 23. explaining that place 1. Cor. 2. 15. sayeth Quisque fidelis est spiritualis every beleever is spiritual and hath a judgment of discretion Picus Mirandula Theor. 16. sayeth If the greatest part of a Councill conclude against the word of God Si rusticus if a rurall man have the Gospel for him he is most to be beleeved and adhered to This sheweth that the scripture should be read and searched by such and privat men having this priviledge should make use of it in a Gospel way for edification not for destruction Question second How shall Scripture be interpreted Answer first Not by the Pope §. 2. for people are commanded to search the Scriptures before there was a Pope in the world Iohn 5. 39. therefore that cannot be a necessar mean Secondly Nor can all make use of Generall Councills seeing these are more hard to be understood then the Scripture Thirdly Not by carnall reason For the naturall man perceiveth not the things of God 1. Cor. 2. 14. But first by Prayer and Meditation for the Lord giveth the Spirit to them that ask him Luke 11. 13. and this mean is practised by experienced beleevers Ps 119. 18. Secondly By a docile cleanly frame of heart Ps 25 9. 10. Matth. 5. 8. Thirdly By comparing Scripture with scripture obscure places with these which are clear ex Gr. who can interpret Ps 8. v. 2. so well as the Evangelist Matth. 21. 16. or the 4. and 5. verses so as the Apostle to the Heb. 2. 7. 8. or these words Matth. 26. 28 so as the Evangelist Luke 22. 20. with Mat. 26. 29. where after the consecration of the Cup it is called the fruit of the vine Or that text Matth. 19. 23. A rich man shal hardly enter into the kingdom of Heaven so as the interpretation of the Evangelist Mark cap. 10. 34. How hard it is for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God Fourthly By the Commentats of ancient and late writters by the preaching of those who are called of God to that work with this caution that we try the spirits whither they be of God or not 1. Io. 4. 1. Fifthly For the exact interpretation of places which should be propounded to others for edification the knowledge of the Original tongues History Chronology Topography is in measure requisit This is the way by which the ancient Fathers expounded Scripture Chrysost in Gen. hom 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Socra Scriptura cum nos tale quid docere vult serpsant exponit auditorem errare non sinit i. e. The holy Scripture when it will have us to teach any such thing it expounds it self and suffereth not the hearer to erre Yea a Jesuit Acosta lib. 3. de Christo revelato ch 25. confesseth so much being overcome with the truth Nihil perinde scripturam mihi aperire videtur atque ipsa scriptura itaque diligens attenta frequensque lectio meditatio oratio collatio scripturarum summa regula ad intelligendam scripturam mihi semper visa est i. e. Nothing seemeth to me more useful for opening up scripture then scripture it self therefore the diligent attentive and frequent reading of the Scriptures meditation prayer and comparing of them together hath ever seemed to me the best rule for understanding scripture Aug. de doct Christi lib. 2. cap. 9. In his enim quae aperte in scriptura proposita sunt inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent fidem spem charitatem moresque vivendi de quibus libro superiore tractavimus tum vero facta quadam familiaritate cum ipsa lingua divinarum scripturarum in ea quae obscura sunt aperienda discutienda pergendum est ut ad obscuriores locutiones illustrandas de manifestioribus suÌ„mantur exempla quaedâ—m certatum sententiarum testimonia dubitationem de incertis auferant Question secoâ—d How can the Scripture be judge seeing it is the rule â—a Qu. â— Answer fiâ—st It is a speaking rule the Spirit of God speaketh there The Acts of Parliament are both the law and judge of a Pro. An. case albeit men pronounce the sense of them So the Church hath the herauldry of this and hence may pronounce the sentence but the determination is from the word alone for humane testimonie can adde no weight to the Divine To this it is returned that the second answer Pa. Rea is no better then the first The Scripture say you is a speaking rule and may be both rule and judge But the Acts of Parliament and civil laws be as well speaking laws in matters of temporal government as the scripture is in spiritual and yet parties should never agree if the Lords of Council and Session did not expound them and pronounce sentence from them not as heraulds but as judges albeit they be tyed to conform their sentence both to Acts of Parliament customs and laws Even so scripture is indeed our law book but the Church is our judge for this our experience may prove that there hath been no agreement amongst them who make any other judge then the Church as all Sectaries commonly do Beside it would
directly answered by me whither on man or many should be judge of controversies To this he saith I dare not answer because I will not grant the power either to the high Bishop or general council nevertheless he findeth this to have been the constant practise of the Church both in the Old and New Testament established by the express word of God and received by the Fathers in all ages for in the Old Testament from Deut. 17. from 8. to 13. we read that GOD did command the people in matters of controversie to go to the Priests Levits and judge who should be in those days appointed by him for that end saying and thou shalt do according to the sense of the law which they shal teach thee and according to the judgement which they shal tell thee Remark he saith not according to the sense of the law which thou shalt read but which they shal teach thee not taken according to the privat judgement and spirit but according to the judgmeÌ„t which they shal tel thee where God promiseth out of their mouth judicii veritateÌ„ truth and verity in judgement or as you turn it sentence of judgement See for this also 2. Chr. 19. 8. where Jehosophat established what was first instituted Viz. a council of Levits Priests and chief fathers of Israel to judge not only between brethren and brethren blood and blood but also betwixt law and coÌ„mandments statutes and judgements Not leaving law and commandments to the peoples privat reading and interpretation as you do in your rule of faith In the 11. verse he concludeth thus Amaziah is over you in all matters of the Lord where it is evident that the council and chief Priest is established judge of controversie and not the written Word as every one readeth and expoundeth In the New Testament again you have this practise clearly set down Acts. 15. Where Paul and Barnabas though Apostles themselves go up to Jerusalem about the question of circumcising the Gentiles converted to the faith And there was holden the first council in which this is decided not out of Scripture but by the authority of the Council it self It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and us said they having the assured promise of the assistance of the Holy Ghost as the Church hath at all time Wherefore after the Apostles councils have decided with the same authority and upon the same infallible ground of the Holy Ghosts assistance promised to the Church Many controversies are acknowledged by Protestants for points of faith without express passage of Scripture Marcion teaching that Baptism should be conferred more then once and Donatists that Baptism conferred by Hereticks should be reiterated as invalid are condemned in the council holden at Rome under Melchiadâ—s Pope in the year 313. now what passage of Scripture I pray you is for this Sâ—bellius putting one person only in the God-head is câ—ndemned in the council of Alexandria under Pope Cornelius in the year 319. but scripture maketh no mention of persons Nestorius putting two persons in Christ is condemned in the Generall Council holden at Ephesus under Pope Caelestin the year 434. Yet neither doth the Scripture speak of thâ—â— The Monotheliâ—s giving to Christ one will in two Natures are condemned in the third general Câ—uncil holden at Constantinople under Pope Agathon the year 679. albeit there be no formal scripture for this So you see it belongeth both in the Old and New Testament to the high Priest and general Council to decide controversie either by Scripture if there be any passage clear for that point or without Scripture by Apostolick tradition conserved in the Church which scripture it self warranteth 2. Thess 2. 15. Hold fast the traditions which ye have learned either by word or our epistle but it seemeth you care not who be condemned or by whom if you take away all power on earth to condemne your selves Every Protestant will be condemned by none but Scripture and yet will make none judge of the Canon Version and sense of Scripture but himself All your answer is that we grant the Promulgation of the law to the pure Gospel Church but you shew not what is this pure Gospel Church neither can you infallibly prove the purity of the Gospel it self or that there is a Gospel or the true sense of the Gospel but by the Catholick Church her authority Hear Aug. contta Ep. fund cap. 5. Where he saith I my self would not have believed the Gospel were it not that the authority of the Church moved me to it Now the Catholick Church is that whose faith is spread through all the world in the Apostle Paul his time which maketh her to be justlie called the Catholick Roman Church and whose faith hath been in all ages since Christ which all the records of the Protestant writters witness of the Roman Church wherein the succession of Popes Bishops Councils is made conspicuous to all who have written Chronology or Church history in every age none whereof make mention of your Church or of men professing your tenets before Luther and Calvin from whom ye dissent in many things Answer first This is a prolix reply the Pro. Du. 1 substance of which might have been taken up in seven or eight lines As it is spacious so it is an impertinent rapsodie and like a beggers cloak clouted here and there with divers parcells without any method or cohesion It seemeth to have been taken out of some Index and cast in here to fill the page For the answer was That the promulgation of the law is not denyed to the pure Gospell-Church which is not the Roman-Church for it is impure Is not this a direct answer You prove that there hath been a ministerial-Ministerial-Church in the old and new Testament which we doe not deny but this is the point did they so pronounce sentence and decide Controversies that all discretive judgement was taken from people or called they themselves infallible whether they had scripture warrand or not Or wil the promise of presence to the Apostles Prophets and penners of Scripture in measure and duration agree to any Church Officers now on Earth Or should promises made to the Universal-Church agree to any particular Church such as Rome Or will promises made to the collective body of the Church agree to the representative unless these be proved you fight with your own shadow For we are much for the authority of Christs Church and think that her judgment of old and late should sway privat men unless they can prove by scripture or sound reason that she erreth We are much for the authority of all lawful Councils and we give them all reverence in regard of the authority of their constitution but if they depart from the scriptures we owe them not active obedience Well speaketh our learned Camero tom 1. tract de infallibilitate ecclesiae So oft as any thing is decreed by a Council or assembly of men appointed by lawfull autharity
Councils may erre Ergo the Pope and Council may erre The argument will hold here a divisis ad conjugata as well as thus the Magistrat may be diseased and his council infected therefore both Magistrat and Council are subject to sickness It is a deluding evasion to say that the Councils confirmed by the Pope cannot erre for the Jesuits place the infallibility in the Pope the Parlsians in the Council and they are not agreed in this amongst themselves In the sense of the one a Church Session confirmed by the Pope is as infallible as a Council And in the sense of the other a Council confirmed by a privat Bishop is at infallible as if it were confirmed by the Pope Thus then we argue that must have no entity which can find no subject but Papists cannot agree upon the subject of this infallibility therefore it is not ens Further General Councils have been of this judgement that the Popes consent is not requisit for making their decrees right For in the Council of Chalcedon where were conveened 630. fathers in the year 454. where Martianus the Emperour was present it was contrar to the desire of the Popes Legats appointed that seeing the seat of Rome had no divine warrand for its supremacie Constantinople should have alike priviledges with it This was as full a Council as we read of and yet all these fathers thought the Popes coÌ„sent not necessary for their statutes Yea they declared his supremacie not to be Juris Apostolici in the first Council of Constantinople which was the second generall Council The Councills of Constance and Basil judged the Council to be above the Pope In the first three generall Councills the Pope did not so much as preside in them either by himself or by his legats For in the first presided Hosius Bishop of Corduba In the second Nectaâ—ius Bishop of Constantinople And in the third at Ephesus Cyril Bishop of Alexandria in which Councills Controversies were deterrained by the plurality of suffrages and every one of the fathers there did subscrive their name to the constitutions and conclusions of the Council The council of Trent again did all Proponentibus legatis therefore either it or they were in an errour so not infallible And indeed it is above dispute that the council of Trent was erronious and not the council of Chalcedon in that which Gregory the Great and all ancients so extoll and commend This is said not in the least to derogate from lawfull councills which we judge necessary helps for ordering the effaires of the house of God in diverse exigencies Yea we give more to the foure Generall Councills then Papists doe for they cast both at the second and fourth But we have another judge and determiner the Scripture of God Augustin confirmeth this Nec ego nicaenum nec tu debes Ariminense tanquaÌ„ prajudicaturus †Aug. contra Maxi. Arrian Episcop praeferre consilium nec ego hujus auctoritate nec tu illius detineris Scripturarum auctoritatibus non quorumcunque propriis sed utrisque communibus testibus res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione consentiat i. e. Neither would I preferre the Nicen nor ought you as prejudged to preferre the Arimin council I am not holden by this or thou by that but by the authority of the Scriptures which are witnesses common to all appropriat to none let one thing agree with another cause with cause reason with reason Thirdly As to the third thing proposed The Church is not appointed to be obeyed Pro. An. 3 but in subordination to the law of God for I know not the Church but by the word therefore I cannot obey it but by it also Secondly Subjects should not judge the law authoritatively If thou judge the law thou art not a doer of it Iames 4. 11. The word of God is the law and all churches are subject to it Thirdly The Text you cite the 17. of Deut. from the 8. v. to the 13 where the people are commanded to go to the Priests for decision of controversiies hath this expresly in it v. 11. According to the sentence of the law which he shall teach thee Cajetan upon the place sayeth That in the Hebrew it is super oâ— legis ideo doctrina eorum esset conformis divinae legi There doctrine of decision should be warrandable by the law Glossa ordinaria explaineth the place thus non dicitur tibi ut obedias nisi â—uxta legens docuerint i. e. thou art not commanded to obey if they teach not according to the law Lyra is of the same judgement si dicant falsum non sunt credendi if they speak false they are not to be believed In Mal. 2. 7. The Lord sheweth that the Priests lips should preserve knowledge where he declareth not what was for they had gone out of the way at that time but what should be Ribera saith the words are not to be read in the present but in the future tense and according to Cyril he is called the Messenger of the Lord because he should give men of the oracles of God as he hath received them from the Lord. Also that place Matth. 23. 2. where Church rulers are appointed to be heard when they siâ— in Moses chair Theophylact expoundeth iâ— quando docent ea quae continentur in lege when they teach the things contained in the law O if your Scribes and Pharisees would do so they might be better heard That place 2. Chr. 19. 8. 11. concerning Amaziah who was over them in all matters of the Lord holdeth only forth this that Magistracy and Ministry are distinct offices And in the church of Jerusalem albeit the Apostles were infallible yet they proceed according to the word and built their sentence on the Prophets Acts 15. 14. these places prove that implicit obedience is not to be given to any Church rulers And the Bâ—reans were commended for searching the Scriptures when the message was delivered to them How gross then is Bellarmin who saith †Bell. lib. 4. de â—ont cap. 5. Sâ— Papa erraret praecipiendo vita prohibendo virtutes tenetur Ecclesia credere virtutes esse malas vitia bâ—nâ— If the Pope saith he should coÌ„mend vice and call it good which they grant he may do notwithstanding of his infallibility then people were bound to obey and call vice good Valentia saith more that the people are bound without any enquiry Valent. Tom. 3. disp 1. disp 7. qu. 3. Punct â— to erre with their rulers and errores corum in tali causa sunt actus Christianae obedientiae their errours are acts of Christian obedience Aeternae vitae meritoriae deserving eternal life When Papists speak so great absurdities what will they not do for their interest Fourthly As to the fourth thing proposed Pro. An. 4 the Church of Christ is to be ruled by its officers lawfully called but the government of it here is not Monarchical
not to be thought that privat mâ—n should be barred from searching the scripture seeing it is contrar to that text John 5. 39. where if by searching the Scripture you mean the reading and interpretation of it that cannot be the sense of it For the Apostle Paul saith 1. Cor. 12. GOD hath set in the Church Prophets Apostles Doctors c. Then he addeth are all Apostles are all Prophets are all Doctors do all interpret Then this doth not belong to every man to read and interpret Scripture but to search the deep meaning and sense thereof from the Doctors of the Church For the Jews did search the scripture reading and hearing it read in their Synagogues and yet did deny Christ to be the Messiah which scripture doth clearly testifie Even as Protestants do read Scripture and in it the real presence the power to forgive sins granted to men justification by faith and good works anointing the sick virginity preferred to marriage and yet deny all this Wherefore as Christ exhorteth the Jews to do it with greater reflection and attention not superficially turning and shuffling it over as Protestants do so do I exhort them The word is the sword of the spirit upon which you inferre should any privat man be disarmed amongst his soes So let me tell you that the Apostle calling it a sword sheweth that it should not be put into a mad mans hand or in the hand of a fool i. e. Poor ignorants who as Peter saith wrest it to their own destruction and yet this is your consequence if it should be granted to all privat men Children and fools get not arms amongst their foes wherewith they might rather wrong themselves then their enemies but are under the protection of their Paedagogues and attendants And so the ignorant should not easily handle the sword of the word being ignorant and only capable of the letter but should receive the sense thereof from the Church and her Pastors that it may be to them an arme of defence Pro. Duply 1 Answer first All this is answered fully in the return of the first question to which place I referre the Reader lest I make idle repetition If the rule of right reasoning had been observed nothing of this ought to have come in formerly but here in its own proper place I distinguished betwixt privat men and privat interpretations then betwixt the extraordinar gift of interpreting and the ordinar Thirdly Betwixt the priviledge and the exercise Privat men have the priviledge to search the Scriptures you say it should be by no other then doctors if that be true then the Lord Jesus did not direct the people who heard him to use prayer and meditation for knowing the Scriptures but to go to their rulers Scribes and Pharisees who did what they could to make the Scriptures testifie against him and all his I appeal to the conscience or reason of any if this exposition on the place can hold water Or if an indvidual act such as this being performed by another is an obedience to a command If this exposition be good then when the Lord pronounceth the man blessed who meditats in the Law day and night the sense of it must be if his Pastors do it for him it is enough Who will admit this But the one is as true as the other Secondly You contradict your self for once you say that privat men should not interpret Pro. An. 2 Scripture but take it from the mouth of the church then immediatly you exhort them to do it not superficially but with attention and we exhort to no more Thirdly You make all the people who are Pro. An. 3 privat men mad fools and Children by your coÌ„parison in whose hand the word of GOD should not be put then it must be taken from them and how agreeth this with the former exhortation What if this were told to the Kings and Queens who are Popâ—sh By the testimony of your doctors ye are all de clared unfit to rule others for mad men fools children caÌ„not govern In effect ye guide theÌ„ as such in divine matters for ye muzle and blindfold the people all this passeth under the notion of Paedagogy But sad is the case of such pupils â—f they knew what belonged to their peace Let ignorants be catechised and trained in the ways of GOD this may make them more discerning of the sense and meaning of the word of God Seneca telleth Coenant nobiscum quidam quia sunt docti alii ut sint doâ—li Some men suppe with us because they are learned others that they may be learned The testimonies of the Lord make wise the simple should they then be deprived of them Question sixth Ye agree not about the Pa. Qu. 6 rule for some cast at the Epistle of James others receive it Answer None of the pure reformed do Pro. Qu. so it was only rejected by some Lutherians in which we do not owne them Secondly The number of Scripture books is not the question but whither these mantained by all be the rule of saith Seeing all men are murable creatures and at their best state vanity Popes clash with Popes Councils with Councils Pulpits with Pulpits let any judge whither it be safest that the revealed will of God be our rule or the dictats of self contradicting men Reply You say none of these pure reformed Pa. Reply reject the Epistle of James and you disclaime the Lutherians who do so and they you for I am confident they will acknowledge none for pure reformers who take an Epistle for scripture which they hold to be none Then you say the number of Scripture books is not the question Sir you move questions as you please but hear Mr. Hooker one of your most learned Protestants lib. 1. Eccl. pol. Sect. 14. pag. 36. of these things necessar saith he the very chief is to know what books we esteem holy which is impossible for it self to teach Apply this to your only determiner of faith in your first answer And truely I think this should be the first question of all to the pure reformed according to the pure word of God as you cal them which are the books of the pure word of GOD Now if you answer these are mantained by all which you make the rule of faith how few books of Scripture shal be this rule if any at all For there be few or none whereof some have not doubted or flatly denyed Saint Augustin contra Faustum Manichaeum and lib. de mor. Eccl. cap. 1. Saith the Manichees did deny Moses and the Prophets the Jews did deny the New Testament What books of Scripture are mantained by all For by that you make the consent of all judge of canonical Scripture how then can you disclaim tradition and say immediatly after men are mutable creatures and at their best state vanity Seeing upon the consent of men ye take up your rule of faith and number of Scripture books I know other Protestants
pretended right so in the matter of doctrine an invisible Church and no Church is the same For if I cannot see nor know the Elect as being invisible to the eye of man so I cannot know that the Church composed of them speaketh to me or that this Doctrine I hear of any man is infallible more then that he is one of the Elect. Answer I am weary transseribing a number Protest Duply of wordâ— without weight that is a compleet rapsodie and no return to the former question If such digressions were heard in the School the Writter behoved to be sore censured The question was how the Scripture could be the square Seeing all agree not about the number of the books some cast at the Epistle of James as the Lutherans And the answer I gave was that although some Lutherans differre from us about the authority of that epistle yet we both agree here that uncontroverted scripture is the determiner And for the numerick question it was sufficiently answered in the second answer to the first querie so we needed not this tauâ—oligie to make the Reader nauseat If I had to do with a Lutheran then I could prove the divine authority of that Epistle but you do not deny it therefore to what purpose should I insist on that subject against you Mr. Hooker whom you cite maketh nothing against us as is alledged for that which he sayes is first that the light of reason rightly managed is a requâ—sit mean for the knowledge of scripture books and what sayeth that against us seeing we suppose the Readers of Scripture to be â—ational men that reason in its own line may be helpful to them for understanding scripture Secondly Mr. Hooker directly disclaimeth your traditions page 86. and affirmeth that they who betake themselves to that testimonie as divine have not the truth but are in an errour Thus he condemneth you as erronious so it had been your advantage to have spared this tradition neither was it needful to tell us that the Manichees denyed Moses and the Jews the New Testament We have to do with Papists who hold all the books of the Old and New Testament which we hold for Canonick At lest what some others make disputable as Melchior Canus telleth us you put it out of dispute so you are not in bona fide to reason about their number with us seeing ye question none which we mantaine albeit we justly call in question Apocryphal writtings which ye put into the Canon Is it not safer to regulate our faith by these uncontroverted Scriptures then by the dictats of mutable self-contradicting Popes When Church Rulers have been fully corrupted Believers have continued orthodoxe as in the time of the Arrian persecution The Fathers who lived the first 300. year believed without either Pope or General Council as propounders of their faith For then there was no such pretending to infallible supremacy They had no infallible testimony from the Church they acknowledged not her testimony to be such And for ought I can learn theâ—e be no testimony of your Church nor statute enacting her testimony to be infallible If so it is nor according to you de fide however ye make a great noise amongst people with it And if all the faith you have depend upon the testimony of the present Church which is your doctrine your faith is not one with Abrahams faith for the word of God did beget his faith but it is the testimony statute of the Trent Council that begettâ—th yours and I would gladly hear from you whither there was universal consent there or not Such clashing and pocket orders as the author of that history telleth to the world will not permit you to say without a blush that the Council was unanimous and Gospel-like in their way Therefore unless it be against us all their otheracts are made up of ambiguous stuffe like the Delphian responses this is purposely coÌ„trived to cover debates with general termes And if their testimony make the word of GOD Scripture to me living under Popery what rule had they for their faith who made these conclusions Their own testimony could not be the cause of their own belief if you say that the testimonie of the ancient Church was their rule then ye go contrar to your own Doctors who declare that the present Church of Rome is above all former councils and their authority dependeth on her testimony See Bell. lib. de Eccl. cap. 10. Valentia Tom. 3. disp 1. quest 1. Further that the supream power of judging is not in the Council but in the Pope that he is above a general Council that he cannot be subject to it See Bell. lib. 2. de Concil cap. 17. Valentia tom 3. disp 1. Suarez disp 5. de fide and your own Vives in his comment on Augustins 20. book de civit Dei cap. 26. telleth us how little ye make of Councils or of the ancient Church when they militat against you Illa demum videntur iis Concilia quo in rem suam faeiunt reliqua non pluris estimantur quam commenta mulierum in textrina aut thermis i. e. These appear to be Councils to them which make for them the rest are no more esteemed by them then the sables of old women in the weavers shop or sloves Brisâ—â—erius writting against Collag a Jansenist as he is cited by learned Dalleus †See Dâ—lleus de usu Patrum saith Councils are literae mortuae nisi animentur à praesenti Ecclesia i. e. They are dead letters if they be not animated by the present Church This appeareth to be true from experience for ye agree not with the primitive either in doctrine worship or government The ancients thought that Images should not be in the Church See Epiph. epist ad Iohannem Hierosolymitanum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cum vidissem Imaginem penderâ— in Ecclesia contra authoritatem Scripturae i. e. When I saw an Image hang in the Church contrar to the authority of Scripture how grieved was I. But the Council of Trent appointed them to be had in houses and Churches and that debitus honor reverentia Sess 25. eis impertiatur i. e. Due honor and worship be given to them The Fathers thought that the Virgin Marie was conceived in sin so saith Ambrose Augustin Chrysostom as Melchior Canus de loc Theol. lib. 7. telleth The Council of Trent Sess 5. will not conclude heâ— under Original sin The Fathers excluded Tobias Judith Wisdom Ecclesiasticus and both the books of the Maccabees out of the canon of Scripture So did Hierom in his prologue ad libros Solomonis Epiph. lib. de Pond mens cap. 2. pag. 162. Gregorie Nazianzen câ—rm 3. Athanasius epist fest But the Council of Trent anathematizeth them who exclude these books out of the Canon Sess 4 Baptism was delayed till Pasch and Pentecost in the primitive Church it is not so with you The 4. Council of Carthage did forbide women
to baptize Canon 100. ye allow it The Sacrament was administred in the primitive Church to all present and they who did not partake were appointed to remove Ite missa est exite foras qui non vultis accipere Sacramentum i. e. Go it is closed go forth ye that will not receive the Sacrament Now the words are muttered and administred before all They took with their hand and the bread was broken of old Now it is not for ye make whole wasers and put them into their mouth For fourthteen hundred years the Church appointed the Sacrament to be administred by bread and wine to the people all Christians of whatever judgement except Papists do so communicat as yet Petau de poenit pub lib. 2. sheweth that it cannot be denyed nisi ab homine insigniter supra omnem modum vel impudenti vel imperito i. e. Except by a man remarkably and above all measure either impudent or unskilful that this was the primitive practise yet the Council of Constance hoc non obstante and the Council of Trent decree the contrar The primitive Church heard nothing of the Popes universal supremacie or infallibility which now by you iâ— made Summa rei See Cyprian ep 55. â—â— Cornelius Bishop of Rome and how he stileth him fâ—ater c. and he saith that they were formerly chosen to officiat Non sine consensu plebis not without the Popes consent ep 68. Ipsa plebs habet potestatem c. Is not this far from your imperious pompous way of Monarchy how then can you so boldly averre that ye have the unanimous consent of Councills and fathers for you when indeed ye do not regard them so much as we Hear your own Cornelius Mus †See Dâ—lleus ubi supra ep Biâ—ont in ep ad Rom. cap 14. Ego ut ingenue fâ—teâ—r plus uni summo pontisici crederem in his quae fidei misteria tangunt quam mâ—lle Hieronymis Augustinis Gregoriis Credo enim scio quod summus Pontifex in his quae fidei sunt errare non potest quia auctoritas determinandi quae ad fidem spectant in Pontisice residet i. e. That I may ingenuously confesse I would give more credit to one Pope in tâ—e things which belong to the misteries of truth then to a thousand such as Augustin Jerom or Gregory For I know certainly that the Pope cannot erre in these things that belong to faith because the authority of determining matters of saith resideth in the Pope yet ignorant people are made to believe that Papists have the consent and practise of the primitive Church along with them and Melchior Canus lâ—c Theol. lib. 7. cap. 3. num 10. Sequi majores nostros per omnia in illorum vestigiis pedes nostros figere ut pueri faciunt per lusum nihil aliud est quam ingenia nostra dâ—mnare judicio nos privare nostro facultate inquirendae veritatis i. e. to follow our ancestors in all things and to â—race their footsteps and fixe in them as children use to do in play is no other thing but to condemn our own wit and to deprive our selves of our own judgement and faculty of searching the truth Salmeron in cap. 5. epist ad Rom. disp 5. asserteth quo juniores eo perspicaciores sunt doctores and citeth Exod. 23. follow not the multitude viz. of ancients This is sufficient to prove that as the Papists are jealous of Scripture so are they of the Primitive Church her consent But it is alleadged that ye have the word of God for your warrand Matth. 16. 18. Matth. 18. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. To this I answere that the first Text is meaned of the collective body of the Church which fall not away this is clear from the context for it is the Church builded on that confession mentioned by the Apostles and an house so builded cannot fall because it is builded on a rock Matth. 7. 25. Yet it will not follow that there be no drops in it for particular beleevers cannot totally and finally fall away but that they are infallible who can say see Iohn 10. 28. and comyare it with 1. Cor. 13. 9. Iames 3. 2. beside your own writters interpret it so see Melchior Canus lib. 5. de loc Theol. cap. 5. and Panormitan on the place The second Text Mat. 18. is to be understood of a particular Church which you grant is not infallible so Chrysostom interpreteth the place and it is further clear from the Connexion for it is the Church to which appeals should be made in prima instantia this undoubtedly is a particular Church But admitting that it is meaned of the universal church your Pope nor your Church is not it The third Text 1. Tim. 3. 15. holdeth forth no more then what is granted in the answer to the fourth question or if you please to take learned Cameron his exposition who knitteth these words with the 16. verse you may do well But what ever be the priviledges of the true Gospel Church which is the Bride of Jesus Christ Rome hath forefaulted all these and is but a leprous part of the universal Church you grant that the church of Rome is but a particular church Why plead you then for the whole priviledges of the universal Church Is not this absurd arrogance Nor doth Calvin Hospinian Luther or White speak absolutly as ye alleadge but assert that the generality for a time was leavened by Popery which is truth But what then followeth That the mysterie of iniquity did arise by degrees and over-runne all for the most we grant so did the Arrian heresie therefore was not Athauasius and such as adbered to the truth right in their way The whole world in the Apostles time did ly in wickedness 1. Iohn 5. 19. Therefore were they not Sons of truth who endeavoured a Gospel reformation Your last hold is tradition and you say we are commanded to hold them 2. Thes 2. 15. for this you cite Aug. Cyprian St. Dennis Epiphanius To this I answer we are not against Apostolick traditions nor Church history in matters of fact We make use of traditions there mentioned But for your Legends we deny that they are such and disclaim them Have you Sir learned Logick Why do you argument so a genere ad speciem affirmative Is this a good argument Est annual ergo est homo he is a living creature therefore he is a man Can this be better there were traditions delivered to the Church of Thessalonica ergo yours are these Credat Judaeus Appella Secondly If there were unwritten traditions why do you dare to writ these things which the Apostles would not writ Thirdly Will that argue the Scripture of imperfection You may as well argue the Minister writteth a book the summe of which he hath preached to people Ergo his book is imperfect You have then to prove for your end that these traditions mentioned 2. Thess 2. 15. were
about matters of faith Secondly If so they be no where written in Scripture Thirdly That if they be not written they be the same which ye deliver to the people and by what authority ye press and writ them But to take this text wholly from your mis-interpretation hear Theodoret who saith that the Apostle spake not of diverse doctrines but of the same diversely delivered For first he preached to the Thessalonians and then did writ the substance of it But as where ever ye find fire in the Scripture ye make it Purgatory so where ye find tradition ye make it pari ratione yours Will ye listen to Bell. lib. 4. de verbo Dei cap. 10. and he will put all out of doubt for he granteth that all in substance were written by the Apostles which they preached to the people or were necessar to salvation Cyprian in his epist ad Pompeium admitteth not any traditions but such as may be perceived to be in the Evangels in the Epistles or Acts of the holy Apostles Therefore it is a perfect rule to all discerners say I and no more was at first asserted Your Maxime Idem est non esse non apparere holdeth in law but not in divinity For the soul is not visible yet who can deny the being of it What is more in the Reply I judge not worthy the noticeing and I am forced to make digression because of an impertinent return Is it not strange that when I called men mutable creatures and at their best state vanitie subject to clashing contradiction and that the written Word is the only infallible rule for direction that upon this tradition universal consent should be so prolixely commented on without any connexion They who follow this reflecter must resolve to deviat from tho high way Question seventh Your Church which ye Papists Quest. 7 call reformed is but of yesterday where was it before Luther Answer It is as old in its doctrinals as Prote ∣ stants Answer the Scripture therefore not of yesterday See what societie from the beginning professed the doctrine mantained there that was out Church The Romans Corinthians Ephesians Philippians Thessalonians as taught by the Apostle Paul are our Church of old so it is not new Secondly In all ages there have been and are eminent professours of that doctrine which we mantaine as is abundantly proved by Flaccus Illyricus in his Catalogue Testium veritatis and learned Dr. Usher in successione Ecclesiae reform which testimonies no Popish shaveling of what ever ordour yet could answer Thirdly where was the church of Rome as now constituted before the council of Trent Nay more was the Popes supremacy and infallibility heard of the 600 year after Christ Is not all Popish faith as such resolved into a lie viz. the infallibility of the Pope or Council which though errand untruths are the key of the Popish Religion Fourthly All the positives of the reformed Religion were mantained substantially in the Primitive church the first 300. years I speake not of changeable circumstances nor integrals but essentials and the negatives could not be there because the controversies were not then started But ye Papists have amassed a body of humane inventions gross errours contrare to scripture obtruding them under Anathema to be the established doctrine of the Church And because we of the reformed Profession will not own these and call that which is new old ye excommunicat us as Hereticks Reply In your seventh Answere you say Papists Reply your doctrine is as old as scripture and your Church as the Apostles and this is common to you with all sectaries to claime the scripture and the Church in the time of the Apostles And like to that answer of the common people we are all come of Adam and Eve But I shall let you presently see how contrar your doctrine is to that scripture and how unlike your Church is to that of the Apostles the first 300 year In the second part ye pretend that Illyricus and Doctor Usher have sufficiently shewed that there have been eminent men of your Profession in all ages and that without a Reply of any Popish shaveling of whatever ordour But Sir I am sorrie that you who are a Nazarian and not a shaveling shoule be so ill versed in books of controversie as not to have seen so many Catholick writters who demonstrat clearly that of all these eminent men before Calvin you pretend to be yours there is not one hath holden all the same tenets with you and no more For it is enough for you that they dissent from the Church of Rome and sling at the Popes authority what ever tenets they hold in matters of belief to call them yours Which hath made Dr. Vane Chaplain to our late King judiciously compare them to Sampsons foxes which were all bound together by the tails although their heads went diverse wayes So that when you call the Luthereans Valdenses Albigenses Hussites Catharists Wicklessians Graecians Egyptians yours you may as well call the Turks and Tartars yours if we trust all records which speake of their tenets And as for the Fathers hear if they were yours in the opinion of the most learnea Protestants Dudithius apud Bezam ep 1. If that be true which Papists say the Fathers with mutual consent are altogether on their side Pet. Martyr 2. de verbo col 1539. as long as we stand to Councils and fathers we shal alwayes remain in the same errours And fully confesseth that Hierom Ambrose and Augustin held the invocation of Saints Chemnitius in ex concil trid art 3. pag. 100. did not disput but avouch that most of the Fathers said the souls of the Martyrs heard the petition of those that prayed to them they went to monuments and invocated Martyrs by name Whitgift in his defence pag. 473. all the Bishops and writters of the Greek and Latine Church too who no doubt were the Fathers for the most part were spotted with the doctrine of Free-will Merit Invocation of Saints Judge then Sir if they were pure In the third part you ask where was the Church of Rome before the council of Trent I answer you even where she is now except in Jappony India China and some parts of America where by their Christian labours and by the blessing of GOD she hath been established since Neither can you instance that she is not constantly the same in all points Nay more say you was the Popes infallible universal supremacie heard of the first 600. years Where it seems you must be very deaf who hear not the voice of 1200. Fathers speaking only in the four first general Councils He who holdeth the See of Rome is chief and head of all Patriarchs saith right seeing he is the first as Peter to whom all power is given over all Christian Princes and all their people and who ever contradicteth this is excommunicated Can. 29. Concil Nicaeni anno 325. Where 316 Bishops were conveened Secondly
who dare not ask God for the exceeding greatness of my sin O saints of God I beseech you with tears and weeping to fall down before his mercy seat for me wretch Sixthly ye deny the making of the sign of the Cross and Images but hear S. Dennis lib. 2. Eccl. hierarch cap. 2. 5. The sign of the Cross is so much honoured that it is often used both in Baptism and other Sacraments And in the third Age Tertul. de cor mil. cap. 3. In every thing we sign our forehead with the sign of the Cross of which practise tradition is the defender custome the conserver and faith the observer And againe the same Tertul. lib. 2. de pudic The Image of Christ bearing a Lamb on his shoulder were graven on chalices and used in Churches Seventhly ye deny Freewill which in the second Age Irenaeus lib. 4. cap. 72. affirmeth not only in workes but even in faith hath Almighty God reserved liberty of will to man saying be it done to thee according to thy faith And in the third Age S. Cyprian lib. 3. cap. 52. The freedom of believing or not believing is placed in the will Eâ—ghtlie ye denie merit of workes but in the second Age Justin Martyr Ap. 2. boldeth it saying We think that men who by workes have shewed themselves worthy of the will and counsel of God shall by their merits reign with him And in the third Age St. Cyprian sect de Eleemosyna If the day of your return shal find us unloaden swift and running in the way of good works our Lord will not fail to reward our merits Ninthlie Ye deny the possibility of keeping the Commandments against Tertul. in the second Age cited by the Centurists and Origen in the 1. hom 9. on Iob. the baptized saith he may fulfil the law in all things Judge now Sir whither it be not an open calumnie to say the controversies betwixt you and us were not then started in the first 300. years The Fathers having taught even then so clearlie our tenets which nevertheless ye are not ashamed to call new with Dr. Pierce in his Court sermon but see the two learned answers made to him which may evidentlie convince you of boldness ignorance and errour Answer You are wise by this your reply Prote ∣ stants Duply for you leave the marrow of my answer untouched which was this That our Church in Doctrinals worship c. is as old as Scripture That you pass with a jeer and say that it is the language of all Sectaries This calumny hath been cast of old upon pure doctrine Acts 24. and their worship called Haeresie verse 14 I wish that all Sects were such as we are scriptural in their way Ye are the greatest Schismaticks I know on earth departing from the Scriptures and mocking others who adhere to them The other assertion is That this is the voice of common people who claim descent from Adam and Eve Is not this true Are not all nations of men made of one blood Acts 17. 26. It is grace and vertue which maketh the difference Omnis sanguis concolor And iâ— we have as much relation to scripture Churches as multitudes have to Adam and Eve we are not spurious but of a right extract Ye probably must be a kind of men like the pre-Adamits and of another descent But one cheat is here remarkable you promise to shew how contrar our doctrine is to scripture and when you come to answer then you beginne with Dudithius and overleap the whole scripture Your own Rainerius an Inquisitor giveth this verdict concerning us that we are said to have been from the beginning and walked by the Scriptures Secondly You pass that concerning professours of our doctrine in all Ages and will not signifie one man who answereth Flaccius or refuteth Usher but only you averre with Dr. Vane to whom ye are much beholden in this that they were not in all things ours I know few discerning men who agree in all things If we hold one foundation which Jesus Christ hath laid that maketh unity and uniformity All Christian Churches except Romanists make the Scripture the sole rule of their faith and to this we accord Were the Eastern and Western Churches essentially different because of some discrepances about the time of Easter c. For Turkes and Tartars they are without Christ and you might more pertinently have spared the comparison of them with ancient churches and professours if your charity were as much in your breasts as in your books and your respect real to the Saints in light Thirdly That which I said I will mak good that all the positive fundamentals of our Religion were mantained in the Church the first 400. years This appeareth from the Creeds and Confessions of Faith then made yet extant Let any read the Apostolick Nicaene or Anathasius Creed the determinations of the Ephesian council written by Cyril of Alexandria the Confession of Faith made by the council of Chalcedon and there they will find exact conformity with the positives of our Religion Popery addeth to these their own inventions which we renounce and this maketh the difference To make this truth appear the more I shal name these foundations The doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles upon which our faith is builded We hold that there is one GOD three Persons that the world was made by GOD and man the tennant when the house was made appointed to bring in his rent That man was made according to the Image of GOD in holiness and righteousness That he fell from his first state and turned to the creature by transgression That sin entered this and death by sin That he sinned as a publick person and involved posteritie under a curse That GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son who was very GOD made flesh in the womb of the blessed Virgin and dyed for our sins and after burial rose again for our righteousneâ—s So that it is the blood of Jesus Christ only that cleanseth us from all siâ— And eternal life is the gift of GOD through Jesus Christ our Lord and when he paid the price then he ascended to Heaven and the Heaven must contain him as man â—ill the day of the restitution of all things That he iâ— now aâ— the right hand of GOD advocating and inâ—erceeding for as many as the Father gave him and shal come again and render â—o every man according to his works When he ascended on high he led captivity captive and sent the Holy Ghost who proceedeth from the Father and the Son who createth saith in us by which we are justified Who enlighteneth convinceth comforteth supporteth directeth all the houshold of faith and teacheth all the children to worship GOD alone in spirit and in truth and to call on his Name through Jesus Christ the only Media tour betwixt GOD and man Our Lord sent his Apostles and set them in the Church commanding them to teach
year and that not without blood to typifie Jesus Christ he spoke also in the vulgar language of the Nation And was not all their administrations in Hebrew their mother tongue How then can you say that any of their worship was in an unknown tongue As for that you adde of the 13. verse and verse 16. it is so dark nonsense â—hat to me now ye speak in an unknown tongue and deserves no answer He desireth them to speak with tongues and interpret them to the unlearned for the use of edifying that all might say Amen What can be more clear against you At last you come off this as formerly and yeeld the cause and say that the liturgie of the Catholick Church is interpreted to every one and the greatest part of the publick prayers translated to the people and set down in their own prayer books And this place of Scripture maketh not against us but Ministers who with their extemporarie prayers speak non sense which hath made one of your own Poets say fools do not understand us nor wise men you I am glad to hear that this point which was deryed at the Council of Trent is now granted and if it be so why jangled you so much formerly But I find it is not so for you are taught to equivocat And what your greatest part meaneth is unknown here it is certain your Masses Aves c. are yet muttered and worded in Latine ye are ashamed to owne it not without reâ—son For your reflection on our worship we are for reasonable service and lively work to a living GOD not for none-sense and would to the Lord your worship were as pure as ours is this day many souls might be edified thereby Thirdly Invocation of Saints and Angels is will worship Col. 2. 23. How can we call Inst. 3. on him in whom we do not believe Rom. 10. 14. or lay stress of belief on a creature Beside they know not what we say Abraham is ignorant of us and Israel acknowledgeth us not Isaiah 63. 16. To this your return is that I wrest the Papists Reply scripture Col. 3. which speâ—keth only of the duty of Masters and Servants and not one word against the worship of Saints or Angels And that place Rom. 10. 14. is concerning prayer to GOD only not about prayer to Saints or Angels Because we will supplicat men on earth in whom we do not believe And the text Isaiah 63. 16. cited by you is meaned of the knowledge of approbation as Hierom interpreteth the place According to which it will rather follow that tâ—ey did know what passed here below and disowned a degenerated multitude Answer I confess if I had cited that place which you mention upon this subject I had not only wrested but martyred Scripture Prote ∣ stants Duply You may believe it never entered into my mind to do so The place I cited was the 2. chapter of the Collâ—ssians verse 23. where worshipping of Angels is termed will worship And what can you say to that I would suspect that you purposely have omitted this scripture yet this might as easily be refuted by you as 1. Cor. 14. For he who said the one said also the other The 10. Rom. 14. you labour to interpret thus that it is meaned of prayer to GOD not of calling on men or Angels because we will call on men on earth in whom we do not believe The words are general and the interrogative is equivalent to a negative None can call on them in whom they do not believe You say we call on men on earth What do we pray to men The calling here is a part of religious worship which cannot be given to the greatest Potentat in the World Then you tell that the 63 of Isaiah is meaned of a knowledge of approbation like that depart from me I know you not id est I approve you not so Hierom expâ—undeth the â—ext and accâ—rding to this expâ—sition it wâ—ll rather follow that they did know wâ—â—t passed â—ere below and disowned a degenerated 〈◊〉 I â—nswere that exposition of Is â—â— is contraâ—e to the strâ—â—â—o Interpreters Yet to the connexion of the words For it is a prayer put up to God and the 〈…〉 to be this Thou O Lord knowest how â—o helpe us although Abraham knoweth noâ— what is become of us So it is an opposition between divine knowledge and that of Abraham Doubtless thou art our father c. But supposing Hieromâ— interpretation to be true it will not follow that they knew what was done on earth but only this that if Israel were on earth they were so 〈◊〉 degenerated that he would not know â—is posteritie I 'le close this with the testimony of your own Eckius in his Enchir. ch 15. there is no warrand for invocation of Sâ—ints â—r Aâ—gels from the scripture and that the Apostieâ— either by word or writ left any thing behind them to be done c. He might have said more there be warrand for the contrar Fourthly Your worshipping of Imâ—ges is Inst. 4 an express breach of the second Command which forbiddeth any sort of worship to any Image in Heaven or in Earth Ex. 20. 4. And ye Papists being conscious of your guilt herein have thievously stoln out the second Command and divided the tenth into two branches witness Bellarmins Catechism and your other writters To this you answer That the division of the Commands is not in scripture so we cannot know the second or third How then standing Papists Reply by scripture your only determiner shal we judge of tâ—is And if you come to authority or reason I appeal to your self whither it be Idolatrie to worship Images Seeing all Idolatrie is against the first Command It being the worship of a creatâ—re in the place of GOD. Therefore Bellarmin and others take what ye call the second Command for a further explanation of the first and so set down but the substantial words Thou shalt have no oâ—her Gods but me Yet take not the rest out of the Bible which is there set down at length But Protestanâ—s take away all the Commandments saying it is impossible to keep them For there is no Command where there is no obligation of keeping aâ—d Nemo â—enetur ad impossibile Then reason mâ—keth for dividing the tenth Commandment in two For as theft and adulterie are forbidden by two Commands so the inward desire of the heart after a mans wife and goods should likewise in reason be rather forbidden by two Commandments then Idolatrie alone by two But if making of Images kneeling before them or worshippâ—ng them not as Gods but as things which keep us in mind of GOD and his Saints as the seventh general Council saith as the holie boâ—ks Why did GOD make man to his own Image and obliedge us to honour him as his Image Why did he put two Cherubs on the Aâ—k before which the Jews kneeled Why commanded he the Jews to adore the same Ark
image-worship whither of the true or false Gods which is here forbiddeÌ„ For it is certain that the Golden-call was intended by them to represent the true GOD. Exod. 32. 5. To morrow is a feast to the Lord and 2. Chro. 33. 17. They sacrifized in high places yet to the Lord their God only The like may be said of the Calves at Dan and Bethel Ps 106. 20. And of Micahs Image For be confidently sayeth Now know I that the Lord will bless me Judges 17. because I have a Levit to be my Priest They used not Levits for the worship of false Gods Further the speech of Stephen seemeth to prove it strongly Acts 7. 40. 41. for speaking of Israels worshiping the Calf he saith The Lord for this gave them up to worship the host of Heaven Now when sin is punished by sin that sin which is the judicial punishment useth to be more gross then the antecedent sin which is the procuring cause but the worshiping the host of Heaven is not so gross as the worship of an Oxe therefore they did worship GOD at first by the representation of a Calf yet were Idolaters This answer then cannot satisfie the conscience or reason of any man And admit that the image of false Gods is forbidden in the second Command how dare Papists without warrand and contrar to the word make the Image of the true GOD which he hath expresly forbidden Deut. 4. 12. Seeing Omnis cultus saith Tertullian de Jejunio should be ex imperio divinâ— non ex arbitrio humano Lastly We are forbidden to worship the likeness of any thing in the Heaven above or in the Earth beneath Now the Lord GOD is in the Heaven above gloriously therefore we should not make his Image for to what can ye liken him saith he Isaiah 40. 18. Bellarmin de Imag. and Gregorius de Valentia distinguish the Minor another way and reject the two former answers as extream For first they say that they worship Images properly so they are againâ—t Durand a great Anti-Thomist who maketh them only memorials Secondly They say that they give them not worship equal to the Pattern so they renounce Thomas and all his adherents Valent. lib. 3. disp 6. saith it is not sicut DEO that they worship the Image of the Trinity Bellarmin saith further that it is not Aeque certum an Imagines Trinitatis sint in Templis collâ—candae reperendae Yet say they that veneration suitable to them is to be rendered Which is he ambiguoâ—s phrase of the Council of Trent like the Delphian oracle If this answer hold good then Thomas and all his Clients are guilty of Idolatrie for they give veneration to Images equal with the Pattern all the Thomists say sicut DEO so to the Image Secondly Cultus religiosus est accidens hominis if we speak Physice now gradual difference in these altereth not the kind of worship Therefore according to the rules of Logick the worship is one with the worship of Thomists or else they disclaim a maxime by making the one Idolatrie the other not Thirdly We are forbidden to bow down to them therefore the meanest degree of religious worship is forbidden in the second Command And they who break the least Command and teach men so shal be least in the Kingdom of Heaven Matth. 5. 19. Lastly the seduced people know nothing of this difference Yea Bellarmin thinketh it not fit that in concione â—oram populo it should be divulged and he hath reason to say so seeing they cannot conceive the groundless distinction betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for their Clergie men will not make it hold water Fourthly Some as Eckius in his Enchir answers nothing but this to the argument that it is the tradition of their Church and Command of their Pope which they judge themselves obliedged to obey If this answer be relevant then they were not faulty who with their traditions made the word of GOD of none effect Matth. 15. 6. And Papists are too like the Pharisees in this Secondly By that Logick the Turk may mantain his worship of Mahomet for his Church and Mufti authorize it Thirdly The Pope in his Conclave may bring in the Alcoran the next day for that may have authority from them contrar to the word of GOD. Arg. third If Image-worship be condemned by all pure antiquity then this worship is not only a breach of the second Command but contrar to the custom of all the Churches of Christ Upon which argument the Apostle layeth stress 1. Cor. 11. 16. But the first is true Ergo c. The Minor is proved thus Many of the Ancients as Clemens Alexandrinus Tertullian c. Were against the art of statâ—e making Epiph. in his ep to John 23. of Jerusalem abominateth the putting them up in Churches and saith it is contrar to scripture that any Image should be in the Church of Christ Now if they wer against the making of them against the hanging of them in Churches much more against teligious veneration given to them Secondly the council called Eliber which is as old if not older then the Council of Nice made a decree that no Image should be in the Church ne forte quod in parietibus pingatur colatur least that which is painted be worshipped and till the second Council of Nice which was in the 8. Centurie no such thing as image-worship was approved in the Christian Church Thirdly It is an ordinar objection made by Celsus and all Pagans against Christians as I said before from Lorinus Ye have Nulla Templa nulla simulachra nullas aras quod colitis celatis To this objection Origen and Arnobius answer yeelding the matter of fact and vindicating their way which they could not have done if Images had been in use amongst them Further when Adrian did build a Temple for himself the Pagans suspected that it was for the Christians because it was sine simulachris without Images whence it is clear that the Image worship cometh nearer Paganism then Primitive antiquity See Dâ—laeus de Imagin Arg. fourth That which notwithstanding of all distinctions draweth and driveth people to Idolatrie is abominable but by the concession and confession of some learned Papists the Romish worship doth involve people into Idolatrie therefore it is abominable The Major is proved by reason that when the people made an Idol of the brazen Serpent the statue was brocken and called Nehushtan although at first it was appointed by GOD. The Minor is thus proved by the testimonies of learned Romanists as Polyd Virgil. de invent lib. 6. cap. 13. Many are now saith he become so mad that they worship the Images of wood and stone as if theâ— had sense in 〈◊〉 and put more confidence in them then theâ— do in Jesus Christ or other Saints to whom they are dedicated Cassander consult de imag saith It is too manifest that the worship of Images hath so prevailed that
hoâ—ny or milk â—o the Sacrament of the Supper Neither is it reason to â—rgue from tâ—e name to the thing Wâ— call it Baptiâ—m with the Scripture And seeing his implyeth washing with water â—â— is grâ—â—â— superstition to do this without a warrand which hath â—o relation to washing 〈◊〉 would have mâ— râ—semblance with that then salt The name Sacrament is acknowledge I not to be a Scripture word But what Logick is thâ—â— The seals of the Covenant are named Sacraments by the Church Ergo we may adde materials to the work without a warrand The practise of the Baptist objected by me seemeth unanswerable for you fail by it as by a rock which is not candid dealing Yet it is your ordinar manner to pass with silence material arguments Seventhly Ye adde to the Bible humane § 7. Inst traditions which ye equalize and in a sort preferre to it This is point blank contrar to the Word Deut. 4. 2. Rev. 22. 18. If any man adde to these things GOD shal adde to him the plagues written in this book so ye have â—o fear a plague in due time Reply These are open calumnies made Papists Reply to deceive the people in Pulpits as I have shewed reflecting on your sixt answer And prove againe summarily by this Syllogism what is expresly contained in Scripture is not contrar to it But this is expresly commanded 2. Thess 2. 1. Hold fast the traditions which ye have received Neither are your citations of Deut. or Rev. to any purpose For when it is said there If any man shal adde to these things GOD shal adde to him the plagues written in the book Of necessity it must be understood of these books only adding any thing as a part of them otherwise it will exclude all other Scripture as well as tradition But it may be you think the Revelation the last written book of Scripture and that St. John there did speak of all the Bible But this is a conceit out of ignorance seeing Chemnitius your great Gun sayes his Gospel was written after the Revelation And some say so of his Epistles in the very last of which and last verse he sayes I have many things to writ unto you but not with pen and ink but I trust to come unto you and speak face to face But ye would not have believed him speaking face to face who will believe nothing but that which is written Answer You again defend traditions by your old argument A genere ad speciem affirmative Prote ∣ stants Duply which is none concludent as I have proved fully already upon the sixth question to which I referre the Reader And your answer to the 4. Deut. and Rev. 22. confuteth your self For you grant that it is not lawful to adde any thing as a part of these books Then say I it is as unlawful to adde traditions as a part of the Bible and make an entire object of faith with both which is your doctrine If the Pirrat was faulty for taking a ship Alexander was more faulty by taking of Nations We will put nothing to the Scripture that way For then we might make a new Bible and nothing into our Creed but what was written by the Penneâ—s of it You make me ignorant of the time when the Revelation was written and goes about to father that on me which came not into my mind How far and wherein we hold traditions Vide supra on Quest sixth I have no delight to make repetitions Eightly Ye mis-regard the Lords-day and § 8. Inst celebrate dayes of your own devysing contrar to and without any warrand from the Word see Gal. 4. 10. You reply that these are calumnies for we Papists Reply are taught to keep the Lords-day most religiously and with it the holy dayes of Christs-Birth Circumsion adoration by the Kings presentation in the Temple the feasts of the Mother of GOD of the twelve Apostles of some Martyrs and other Saints upon the same ground of Apostolick tradition and ordinance of the Church which the Scripture commandeth us to hear hold fast so what we do in this is neither contrar to Scripture nor without warrand from the written Word And your citation may be as well applyed against your observation of dayes of humiliation and thanks-giving For that place forbiddeth only Heathenish or Jewish days or dismal days superstitiously keeped on frivolous remarkes See Hierom on the place Aug. cont Argenant cap. 16. and in his epist 118. cap. 7. and hear the same Aug. speaking of all our holy dayes in express terms which Protestants taking away what St. Aug. saith may creep in both ungrateful forgetting of Christs mysteries and unkind oblivion of his Saints You call this Argument a Calumnie but it in too well known how small regard is had Prote ∣ stants Duply to the Lords day throughout the Popes Dominions And how farre other dayes of humane institution are by you preferred to them And for Aug. whom you cite as the main patron of them he was so far from approving the trash of his time brought in by the devices of men in the worship of God that in his 119. ep he sayeth If they continue they will become Heathnish and Judaize in many things So according to Hieroms exposition on the text Gal. 4. 10. concerneth you for some of your stust is Judaicall some Paganish Polyd. Virgil de invent lib. 4. in proaemio sayeth That a verie world of Jewish and Heathnish ceremonies pestereth the Lords field Agrippa de Vanit cap. 6. sayeth That Christians now are more oppressed with ceremonies then the Jewes were The Jewish holy dayes were but few in respect of the Romish for they had but their Passover Pentecost feast of Tabernacles of Trumpets Reconciliation New-Moons Purim and Dedication the most of which were of divine institution These have holy dayes for every Saint All saints all soules for the Cross Corpus Christi two dayeâ— every week Lent fast c. without any warrand from scripture or pure antiquitie For Aug. sayeth ep 86. against Urbicus we are indeed commanded to fast but I find not the dayes prescribed in the Evangelicall or Apostolicall writtings The same saith Socrates that it was left by the Apostles to every mans free choise lib. 5. cap. 22. and Erasmus on the 11. of Matth. complaineth that in Hieroms time there were few holy dayes beside the Lords day but now they were unreasonable and burdensome because of their multitude Thus you see neither Hierom nor Aug. savour your holy dayes unless it be in yoâ—r Utopian tractate contra Argentinant for there is non-such among his workes You might easily perceive that Gal. 4. 10. doth not militate as much against our dayes of humiliation or thanksgiving as your holy dayes if you woâ—ld consider First We have more regarde to he Lords-day nor any of these this we desiderar mâ—inly in you for as ye preferre humane traditions to the Scripture so do you these your dayes
to the Sabbath of the Lord. Secondly Our dayes of humiliation and thanksgiving are not nimious for number nor one rous to the people but yours are such that many of your own complaine on them as Polydore Wirgil in proaemio and oâ—hers And if Aug. complained so of these in his own time what would he say â—ow if he were living Will ye hear what he saith Epist 119. Omnia talia quae sanctarum Scripturarum authoâ—itatibus continentur nec in Conciliis Episcoporum statuta inveniuntur nec consuetudine universae Ecclesiae roborata sunt ita ut vix aut omnino nunquam invenâ—ri possunt causae quas in eis instituendis homines sequuti sunt sine ulla dubitatione resecanda existimo Then he saith all such things which stumble the weake and are detrimental not founded on Scripture are to be cut off And again albeit it cannot be found out Quomodo contra fidem sint Yet ipsam Religionem premunt seruilibus oneribus ita ut tolerabilior sit conditio Judaeorum because non humanis praesumptionibus ita subjiciuntur Is he not clearly then against your way Thirdly In observing the Sabbath we regard at that time the work for the day but in the dayes of fast and thanksgiving we regarde the day occasionally for the worke Fourthly We have in observing these no cognation with Jewish or Pagane times whereof ye may be impeached and cannot plead not guilty Ninthly Ye condemn marriage as carnall § 9. Inst to some contrare to the Apostle Heb. 13. 4. and make it a Sacrament to others So ye confound your self making it both Sacramentall and Sacrilegious to the elect of God whereas Enoch walked with God and begat sons and daughters Gen. 5. 22. You reply to this that we Ministers are addicted Papists Reply to marriage and therefore should not offend that it is called a Sacrament Thou that it is so called Eph. 5. and by the Greek Fathers who understood their own language And that ye condemn it not as sacrilegious in any but such as take on the vowes of chastitie povertie c. And that it is malice in Ministers to call Vertues Vices Here you contradict your self for in answer to the sixt Question you denyed that Prote ∣ stants Duply 1 the word Sacrament was at all in scripture which is true and yet now you alleadge that it is to be found in the 5. Eph. and marriage is so called Beside your contradiction you speak ignorantly by telling thâ—t the Greek Fathers who understood their own language called marriage a sacrament whereas the word is Latine and not Greek If that place of scripture be read by any it will soâ—n appear that marriage betwixt man and woman is noâ— called a mystâ—rie but that which is between Christ and his Churâ—h vers 32. For the marriage of Ministers I seâ— not why it should be blamed seeing it is holy in all Heb. 13. 4. Nor how any should take on the vow of chastitie who have not the gift from God The Apostle sayeth it is good in time of persecution for the present distress for a man not to be married 1. Cor. 7. It is Bonum utile but it is better to marrie then to burne A chaste life is commendable in any Christian and a Caelchs state may free him of many cares and snares but to tye all Clergie men to it whither they have the gift from GOD or not is a sin And your encroarchment on the divine ordinance and appointment of GOD hath filled your Church with whordoms and adulteries your Cloysters and Nunries with abominable uncleanness and murders of children It is too well known how the vow of chastity is kept by your Church-â—en And if any doubt of it let them read the late relation of the Ambassadour of Venice concerning the present state of the Church at Rome and he will tell you that some of the most eminent Cardinals there will frequently be under Lues Venereâ— Is it not better to marry then to sin thus I appeal to your own conscience Tenthly Ye teach for doctrine the Commandements of men contrar to scripture § 10. Inst for it is reproved Matth. 15. 9. And do dye your worship wholly with there colored antick gestures so that in your worship ye are more like to Monkies then reasonâ—ble men â—nd gâ—ddiâ— stage-players then solid Christianâ— who worship God in spirit and in truth Reply This ciâ—ation is often answered It Papists Reply is not known of what gestures you speak as if â—uer you did see the gestures of worship of the Catholick Church But one thing is sure that it is a very childish calumny Our gestures being so grave that they move men to decâ—â—â—ion and do accompany GODS wâ—rship with decency Majestie better then your gaping likâ— distracted men your affected sighs and howlings You cite again two words of Scripture that we should worship in spirit 〈◊〉 in truth to condemn reverend and grave gestuâ—es of the body in time of worship as if men were pure spirits I answer that albeit I have of seen your Prote ∣ stants Duply worship yet I have heard the forme of it from sundry discerning â—en who had seen it and told me how Apishand Hâ—â—â—â—onick it is And it is strange how anâ— caâ— deny it Seeing the reacting of the Earth-quake of the renâ—ing of the vale of the Temple of the darkness about the time of the Pâ—dâ—on your crossings your kissings your kissings your whisperings washings anointings spiâ—â—ings breathings falâ—ings c. What are they but many idle observations Yoâ—â— iâ—cense on your Altars your candles wherewith ye burne day-light do they not savoâ—â— of Judaism and Paganism And are far more like stage work then sincere worship And iâ— these be not the commandements of men why produce ye not Scripture for your warrand We are not against reasonable service both with the spirit and body but think that bodily exercise alone profiteth little and the marrow of the work is to worship GOD in Spirit Eleventhly Ye think it lawful to equivocat in some cases to dispence with lawful § 11. Inst. Oaths But Scripture sayes It is a snare after vowes to make enquiry Pro. 20. 25. And that the man shal only inhabit the holy mountain who speaketh the truth in his heart Ps 15. Thus ye Popelings are scarce for moral fellowship seeing no words can tye you Doleful experience proveth this in that your Council of Constance murdered John Huss and Hierom of Prague contrar to the solemn warrand for security of their lives And then said by way of poor defence that faith was not to be keeped to Hereticks To this it is replyed thus In your eleventh Section you are not ashamed to set down in Papists Reply writ that we think it lawful to lâ—e which no Catholick did ever writ or say But ye Protestants brought in your Religion by lies as if the whole Church before them had erred in matters of faith and making poor
any other Papist Reply Reply In your twelfth Sect you make us teach that lawful Magistrats may be deposed by the Pope and that we canonize such Where citing Rom. 13. and 1. Pet. 2. you sight with your own shaddow and make up tenets contrar to Scripture which Catholick detest and abhorre But this is proper to Heresie and particularly yours to cause rebellin from lawful Princes and Magistrats as it did every where even in its first beginning witness the revolting of the Princes of Germany against the Emperour The bloody warre of the subjects in France 20. years against their King Holland against Spain to this day the Suitzers amongst themselves SCOTLAND first against Queen Mary and then our late gracious King Nevertheless Ministers are so bold as to speak this who can neither be subject to Kings Magistrats nor Bishops if they oppose their whimsyes in the least Every one of them taking greater power to himself then Catholicks gives to St. Peter Duply Any one may here perceive a Prote ∣ stants Answer studied shift by way of recrimination Because ye date not declare your selves herein And do you indeed detest the Doctrine of the whole Canonists the whole Jesuits that the Pope may depose a lawful King If it be so I am glade you renounce this point of Poperie But because you say I fight with my own shaddow herein to shew how ignorant and impudent you are in this denyal Let any read either the bull of Gregory the seventh against Henry the fourth the Emperor or of Sixtus the 5 against Henry the third King of France or of Pius the fifth against Elizabeth Queen of England and there ye will find this tennor Nos in supremo justitia throne collocati supremam in omnes Reges Principes Terrae universae cunctosque populos gentes Nationes non humana sed divina institutione obtinentes nobis traditam potestatem declaramus praecipimus jubemâ—s c. Viz. That none of their subjects should owne oâ— acknowledge them For your better information in this particular know that the power of the Pope in this particular is one way explained by the Canonists and another way by the Jesuits For the Canonists say that the Pope hath jura omnia caelestis terrestris imperii sibi à Deo concessa The Jesuits that Pontifex ut Pontifex non habet directe ullum temporalem potestatâ—m sed solum spiritualem tamen indirecte ratione spiritualis habet potestatem quandam eaâ—â—que summam disponendi de temporalibus rebus omnium Christianorum See more of this in Dr. Barclay de potestate Papae in Principes Christianos They hold it beyond doubt that in ordine ad spiritualia which is a broad charter the Pope may depose any King and loose their subjects from all allegiance to him cum subest causa rationalis †Anno 1654. When it was Printed at Naples by authority that the Pope should not exercise jurisdiction civil in the territories of Spain without the Kings leave this was condemned at Rome by Innocent the tenth Secondly They hold that Bishops may omnem moverâ— lapâ—dem and that is a broad word ne degant sub Haeretico Principe Baron anno 438. Sect. 89. Thirdly When the knowledge of the fault is evident Subjects may lawfully if they have sufficient strength exeem themselves from subjection to their Prince Baniâ—s on Thomas quastion 12. and that ante judicis sententiam declaratoriam Lastly Privat persons may kill an Heretical King after sentence is given against him Suarez defens fidei Cathol lib. 6. cap. 4. only their tenderness appeareth in this that the King be not constrained wittingly or willinglie to be the cause of his own death the sense is thiâ— if you can poyson him by his gloves garment or saddle you may do it But by meat or drink you may not for then he taketh his own poyson So John Mariana de Reg. instit lib. 1. cap. 7. Is it not then true that by principles of doctrine no Papist adhering to the Pope can be a loyal subject to the King As for our Reformations ye look on all such with an evil eye But our doctrine in the reformed Church concerning the Magistrat is such that no Christians on earth give him more then we do Witness out Confession of Faith to which we will adhere while we live what ever the scripture and pure antiquitie giveth to Kings that we willingly tender for conscience sake All sound Protestants do abhorre and detest the murther of our late Soveraign Lord the King and we in this Nation did protest and declare against it for which our Commissioners were committed close prisoners and sent with a guard to the border As for the Reformation abroad I desire that famous Mr. Baxter his Key for Catholicks and disswasive from Popery may be read by you who hath written so well on this point that I hope all men satissiable may be satisfied with his reasons which I need not here transcribe See also the testimonie of the Ministers at London against that horride murther to which testimonie we do still adhere and then adbered But Quis tulerit Gracchos de seditione c. †See Bilson of Subjection page 382. Doth not your great Cardinal Allen write an Apologie for Stanles treason against Queen Elizabeth Doth not Bellarmin shew lib. 5. de Pontif. cap. 8. in how many respects Kings may be deposed by their subjects Did not Pope Sixtus the fifth make an Oration at Rome in commendation of the Friar who murthered Henry the third King of France Was not Tyrones treason commenced and commended by your Party who then did take on the coâ—â— of Armes and sound the trumpet of rebellion When the Popes Bull roared in England against Queen Elizabeth how many treasons were hatched and evil humours bred in the people Thirteenthly Ye say we are justified partlie by faith partlie by workes but the § 13. Inst Scripture saith that we are justified by faith without the works of the law and that the man is justified to whom the Lord imputeth faith without workes Rom. 4. 6. and that we are saved by grace through faith not of workes lest any man should boast Neither can any good workes be wrought by us till we be justified and sanctified how can an evil tree bring forth good fruit Nor can we understand any good work which the law doth not require seeing it was tendered under the Covenant of grace Beside our best worksare leavened with many imperfections and debt for the present so these cannot absolve us for bygones or the time to come And whereas the Apostle James chapter 2. speaketh of Justification by workes his purpose there is onlie to declare what justifieth faith Now justifying faith must be a lively working faith and if it be dead it availeth not and if he hint at personal justification which verse 29. implyeth it is before men and that before the Tribunal of GOD there
all must say Enter not into judgement with thy servant for in thy sight no flesh living â—â—n be justified Psalm 143. 2. And the Church must confess that all her righteousness is ragged and as a menstruous cloath Reply In your thirteenth Section you denying Papists Reply that we are justified by faith and works do both contradict scripture and your self It in the Epistle of St. James chap. 2. verse 20. 24. You see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith only No wonder after this ye contradict your self when you grant that faith is justifying or made justified by works For what is it to say that works justify faith But that faith without works is not justifying And so that faith justifyeth not all or no other way then as it is decompanied with good workes as two conjunct causes For as the Philosopher saith causa causae est causa causati But what needeth any reasoning if this place be not clear to a Minister what it clear to ignorants in all the scripture Wherefore ye had done better to reject the Epistle of James with Luther then to acknowledge it for scripture to deny that we are justified by faith and works the two parts of Christian dutie being belief and life Yet to shew that the place of St. James is not to be taken according to the letter you cite three passagâ—â— excluding workes of the written law from justifying but not excluding workes of grace and the Gospel The first whereof expoundeth the rest and St. Augustin them all de fide operib cap. 14. saying St. Paul speaketh of the workes of Abraham in so much as they proceed from the law excluding the spirit and grace of Christ Then you say neither can any good work be wrought by us till we are justified for how can an evil tree bring forth good fruit To which Question I answer with our Saviour in the Gospel asking how a good tree can bring forth evil fruit as David committing adulterie For if you understood the one you may easilie understand the other Which if you do not go to the school and learn the distinction betwixt simpliciter and secundum quid betwixt good and evil simplie and in part For as there be few so good but they do some evil so there be few so bad but they do some good being assisted by GODS actual grace albeit they want sanctifying grace Yea very good actions may be done with some little imperfection which maketh the Prophet compare our righteousness to a menstruous cloath Duply You are like to your self all along in this reflection for I cannot call it a return Prote ∣ stants Duply seeing you have a flourish of fectless words for catching women and children but do not touch the arguments proposed for justification by faith without the workes of the law My first argument was this That the Apostle Paul saith we are justified by faith without the workes of law therefore not by them You say he meaneth not of workes of grace What then Of sinful workes before Coversion And is it indeed like that sinful workes can be called by the Apostle workeâ— of the law seeing these are transgressions of the law Or that the justitiaries amongst the Romans in the dayes of the Apostle were so gross as to assert that sinful workes justifie a man which condemn him Secondly you say that justification by faith contradicteth scripture James 2. 24. which place I explained and reconciled with the 4. of the Romanes and all you say to that is that I contradict my self I said workes justifie faith for my faith is known by my works to my self and others But that will nor say that workes and faith justifie the man So I clash not with my self here And for your Maxime causa causae est causa causati If I understand this you contradict your self in the application of it for faith being the cause of workes and justifying the man workes are the effect of justificatâ—on not the cause of it Hence the Apostle James saith shew me thy faith by thy workes O man For it cannot be showen without workes v. 18. Albeit we say that faith alone justifieth yet that Fides sola in approhendendo non est solitaria My next argument was that a man must be justified before he can work well therefore workes are not the cause of justification I hope you will not say that the effect is antecedent to its cause if you have read Ramus Logick And that a man must be justified before he can work well I prove thus He must be sanctified Ergo c. a corrupt tret cannot bring forth good fruit Matth. 7. 18. Ere you have not something to say to this you close with Pelagius for a defence and speak non-sense For you say that you answer with our Saviour by a distinction of that which is simply such and secundum quid In what part of the Gospel is this Logick to be found For it is clear from the verse above cited that our Saviour denyeth simply the thing so he granteth it not secundum quid Some good acts you say may be done by evil men being assisted by actual grace I would know if actual grace can be in exercise where habitual grace is not at all then if men habitually evil in an unconverted state can do any thing well That something materially good may be done by them as well as sin may be committed by the regenerated I doubt not but that they can do ought upon a good principle for a good end by a good morive I deny it simply Now if they be not such they cannot justifie a mâ—n For nullum agens potest agere extra Spharâ—m suae activitatis Till he be sanctified he cannot be be such till he be justified he cannot be sanctified Workes justifie no more the man then the fruit maketh the tree good My third Reason you leave untouched which was this that the present time requireth all our work Ergo it cannot justifie us for bygones or the future What is now debituns cannot pay my bygone debt nor free me for the time to come And you grant all I have said in the fourth that our best workes are unperfect and so cannot hold water before the Tribunal of GOD. I am glade to hear you grant so much for then where will workes of supererogation and merit appear For further clearing of our Doctrine of Justification take notice the Papists and we thus differ First They say there is a two fold justification one whereby a mâ—n unjust is made just for attaining this there must be previous dispositions by the acts of faith fear hope love whch fit the man for his justification some of them terme this Meritum congrui others say tâ—at this is the free gift of GOD not deserved by workes The second Justification is that whereby â— man being just is made more just this they say is merited by their workes and proceedeth
him and from thence he shal come to judge the quick and the dead But we believe also that he is really present in the Sacrament in as many places as it is given in Which you nor any man else cannot shew to imply contradiction and yet ye delude the people as if there were an impossibilitie in this When you say we break not the bread it seemeth you know not how either the bread is broken or given If we for greater decencie prepare the bread in a just greatness for one man before it be given so did ye of old cutting it in pieces albeit now ye break and bite about What you say in end of his once offering himself in a bloody way on the Cross it is true but if you understand it in an unbloodie manner on the Altar it is false Otherwise Christ should not be a Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedeck Psalm 110. Sir for all these passages of Scripture which you have cited in thiâ— your eight Answer which you see make nothing either against us or for you look to the Touch-stone of the reformed Gospel and you will see the Scripture altogether ours Duply You pass over all the scriptures Prote ∣ stants Duply which I have cited against Christs corporall presence or bodily offering with a strong denyall calling it a calumnie Sir is this right reasoning think you Sure I am if whole Christ be corporally present in every sacrament then when it is administred at Rome Millan c. there be as many bodies there as sacraments And by this tenet doe not the words of consecration make Christ on the altar as wel as by the holy Ghost he was coÌ„ceived in the womb of the Virgin And doth nor his corporall presence take away his ascension sitting at the right hand of God and his return because he is bodily already here He is a Priest for ever by the infinit vertue of his once offering which needeth not be repeated as the Apostle reasoneth well seeing it is not imperfect but only applyed by faith and this is all our salvation As for the distinction of a bloody and unbloody offering it is a device like the rest of your humane inventions Shew me scripture for iâ— if you can This you are bound to do at the least seeing now we are on scripture arguments and I brought scripture to the contrar You call it real presence only I am for real presence spiritualities are realities Your tenet if you understand it is corporal presence See Bell. de Ench. lib. 1. c. 2. 5. the body of Christ is in the sacrament with the whole magnitude thereof and that same body which is in heaven is on the altar either then he must have many bodies or els one body having magnitude and dimensions must be in many places at once in heaven and earth both which is impossible seeing it implyeth contradiction Theodoret. dial 2. against the Eutichian heresie telleth us that the sacramentall signes change nor their nature but remaine in their own substance and shape It is said Iohn 6. 56. He who eateth my flesh shall live by me And ye interpret this place of sacramentall eating ergo all who take the sacrament shall live according to your glosse Although Christ had a spiritual body after his resurrection yet he had a true body because he said to his disciples feel and see saith Aug. ad Dardanum ep 57. Now then he hath true dimensions and when he appeared to the Apostle Paul going to Damascus Aquinas thinketh that for the time he left heaven Summa q. 57. And when he came in amongst the Disciples the doors being shut Theodoret saith that they made passage for him as their Creator And the ancient Hierom speaketh with the scripture that the Angel removed the stone from the grave Although his risen body be glorified yet it is a real body and they who are for transubstantiation make it phantastick without any warrand from the word For Bellarmin acknowledgeth in the forecited place that this tenet of corporall presence cannot be clearly proven from scripture and lib. 3. de Euch. cap. 19. Tollitur verborum Domini obscuritas per patrum consensum And Andradius de caena Domini Licet transubstantiatio ex scriptura probari nequâ—t tamen furor est non credere ecclesiae hac inâ—e And Scotus lib. 4 dist 11. uoÌ„ extat ullus locus scripturae cogens nos admitte e transubstantiationem sine ecclesiae declaratione And addeth that ante Lateran concilium non fuit dâ—gma fidei Further this taketh away the sutableness betwixt the sign and thing signified If transubstantiation be the bread and wine nourish not the body How can accidents nowrish the body How can they be without a subject How Capernaitan like can reprobats ear the body of Christ You referre me to the Touchstone I wish rather you had touched pertinently scripture or reason in your answers then that you should shift satisfaction to the Reader with a reference to a book which possibly he cannot find I have seen that alreadie and an answere toâ—r printed twelve years ago by Dr. Guild who is now at his rest and his answer is yet unanswered if you have time it may be worth the while to peruse it for your conviction Now I beseech you to lay aside interest prejudice passion and weigh again these twenty scripture-arguments it may please the Lord to discover how Antiscriptural your way is who knowes what the Lord may do by weak instruments when his word and truth is on their side Question ninth But seeing we mantaine Papists quest 9 the Apostles Creed why did ye separat from us Answer first The Apostles creed commonly Prote ∣ stants Ans 1 so called is a notable confession to which we owe all respect and do make constant use of it Yet your own Lessius de vera fide in his appendix page 17. sayeth that symbolum Apostolicum is not sufficient test for knowing a pure Church Ye know Socinians will say it who are scarce Christians It mentioneth nothing to be believed concerning the fall of man the worke of conversion the two sacraments which are sealing Ordinances So it is the whole scripture which tryeth best Christians and Churches We did separate because of Idolatrous superstitious worship by setting up Imagerie which the Lord hateth Deut. 16. 22. Secondly We separat only from these Ans 2. errours and cleave to the Scriptures and primitive pure antiquity Thirdly We were persecuted fugati fuimus Ans 3. non fugâ—mus what fire faggot bell book and candle could do that we endured before we break off Fourthly when the light of the Gospel Ans 4. broke up we had a clear call for separation Rev. 18. 4. Reply In your ninth Answer you say you did cleave to Scripture and pure antiquitie Papists Reply and only left our errours You had said better that you had left Scripture and pure antiquitie by so doing
For whosoever seperateth from the true Church which Scripture commandith us to hear leaveth it But ye were persecuted this I grant of your first Apostats Luther for sacriledge in marrying a Nunne vowed to GOD. Calvin for Sodomy burnt on the shoulder Knox for incest And so are all knaves persecuted by laws Should they then turne out-laws and rebels Duply In stead of refuting our Reformation Prote ∣ stants Duply and the reasons of our separation from Rome you fal on raising without any reason For Luther Calvin and Knox were excellent men of GOD as their lives and writtings testifie But if your Popes were such Platina hath done them wrong You may say as safely I am brunt on the shoulder and have committed incest there be no more warrand for the one then for the other And for lawful marriage I see not what divices of men could deny that to any called to it seeing the Lord granteth the liberty Stapleton a virulent adversary yet in this more for the truth then you are in his preface ad autidota Evangelica speaketh thus of Calvin Est interpres Scripturae diligens elegans suavis Comentarii ejus perutiles sunt He is far from calling him a knave Florimond Raymond de nat haeres lib. 7. cap. 10. speaketh thus Fatendum est Calvinuns fuisse ingenio admirando acuto promptissimo in imaginationibus suis in conceptionibus suis exornatissimo c. And for his vindication from these calumnies which you injuriously fixe upon him read your own Papyrius Mâ—ssonius Elog. par 2. pag. 431. where his life is set down and Bolsecus refuted who was the authour of these lies If faithful Historians can have any trust with you these three worthies whom you labour to blot were as faithful holy Ministers of the Gospel as lived in the Church for many hundred years formerly Your own writters blame your Popes and Clergie men but they were either Apostats or constant adversaries who blot Luther and Calvin It is told by your own that Pope Sixtus the fourth licenced the Cardinal of St. Lucie and his familie to use freely that sin not to be named in the three hot moneths of the year And Johannes a Câ—sa Arch Bishop of Beneventum legat to Pope Julius the third set forth a book in commendation of Sodomy there is more warrand for this report then for the Incest of Knox or Sodomy of Calvin Yet who will delight to â—ake in such pudles chaste eares should abhore such speaches Michael the Arch-Angel brought not in time of dispute a railing accusation against the Devil but you spare not to accuse the brethren who are now dead in the Lord falsely Is this the right way to promove the truth Absit But lies being your refuge I leave you to the GOD of truth for answer and shal only take notice that you leave all the four grounds of our seperation from Rome unrepealed and intire So by your silence it appeareth we had reason to leave you for ye Papists hate to be reformed †This your own Espencaeus regrateth on chap. 1. to Titus Question 10. What call had your Reformers Papists qu. 10 to go about such a worke Answer They were Ministers lawfully ordained the Bishops of England and Doctors Prote ∣ stants Answer of Germany c. For Calvin he was thrust forth by Farrel and Virer and ordained by laying on of the hands of the Presbytry according to the rule 1. Tim. 4. 14. So was our Knox Wishhart Willock c. They were like Scribes fitted for the kingdom of God and furnished with things new and old And being Officers in an army where they did clearly see the captain of salvation injured did lift up their voices like trumpets and shew the people their transgressions which was the duty of their office according to their oath Reply Ye take your first Ministerial ordination Papists Reply from the Bishops of England Doctors of Germany and hands of the Presbytry where by Bishops if you understand Catholick Bishops remaining such you must understand they neither could nor would give any power to preach against the Catholick Church No Bishop having power to destruction but to edification of the Church As also you must understand the Catholick Church was yet in her integrity having lawful Bishops whom ye should have constantly followed If Bishops turned Protestants I ask from whom had they their power but from the Catholick Church which no doubt had suspended them in the exercise of their Episcopal function for their disobedience and separation from her As for the Doctors of Germany they might well make Luther a Doctor but not a lawful Pastor or new Apostle nor could there be a Presbytrie of pure reformed Ministers to consecrat Calvin he being the first Reformer himself For by the word Presbyter ye understand an Elder in the New Testament and so by the word Presbytrie you must understand a convention of Elders in the Session which is the first place indeed for a Sodomist called for setting him on a pillar rather tâ—en in the Pulpit But true it is ye had no ordination in the beginning but every one did preach at his own hand pretending the goodness of their doctrine did give them sufficient power and call as all other Sectaries do commonly in the beginning Prote ∣ stants Duply Duply There was a necessity of Reformation pleaded for by many under the Papall tyrrannie This was denyed and school questions made articles of faith which caused some officers of the house first write against them and preach down such prophane errours as Indulgencies c. Now I ask if the case and exigence be such whether might not a Popish pastor by vertue of his ordination judge himself bound in duty to decrie the sins of the time and endeavour reformation aâ— Savanorola did especially seeing every ordained man is a pastor of the Catholick Church this is power for edification not for destruction Admit the Bishops of England did continue Papall it was their duty to purifie the worship throw down Idols c if they were Reformed then the more fit were they for reforming others When Athanasius separated from the Arrians ceased he to be a Bishop or was he holden to be silent in his apology to the Emperour he pleadeth for the contrare Had not the Doctors of Germany power to preach against Indulgencies and were they not Presbyters also You bewray your ignorance concerning Calvin he was not the first reformer Farrel Viret and others were before him who thrust him out into the worke of the Lord. You have as little skill of Presbytry by taking a Session for it But it seemeth your mistake hath been studied to vent your malice against Calvin If ye were as free of superstition and Idolatrie as he was of Sodomy the offerings of the Lord would not be so injured nor his Name polluted Question eleventh Ye want uninterrupted succession which the primitive Church Papists qu. 11 claimed still
as appeareth from Aug. contra Cresconium lâ—b 2. cap. 3. and ep 48. This was one of the weapons whereby they did bâ—at the Donatists Answer The ground of separation of the Donatists was the personall vices of men Prote ∣ stants Answer not the doctrine professed in the Church For in that they agreed with the universall Church as is clear from the above mentioned ep Now we did not separat from Rome because their Popes whom they take for a patron have been Atheists Hereticks denyers of the soules immortalitie Whore mongers c. as their own writters confess in the lives of Silvester 2. Alexander 6. Iohn 22. and many moe but because ye apostatized from the Apostles doctrine and corrupted the worship miserably so these testimonies concern not us Secondly If interrupted succession make void the Ministry ye Papists have none at Ans 2. all For ye often had Anti-Popes and the Councill at Pisa deposed two Popes at once as Hereticks departing from the faith The Councill of Constance deposed Iohn 23. for denying the immortality of the soul and the resurrection Behold then your succession and the infallibility of your Popes Eugenius the fourth was deposed by the Council of Basil and all the following Popes were his successours albeit the Council judged Faelix the fifth to be Pope Yea further this place hath vaiked for many years together so that a line of immediat successours cannot be drawn by your selves Thirdly We have a lawful Ministry as Ans 3. powerful as the world affordeth honoured by the blessing of the Lord by begetting souls to himself and many can from their experience say that it hath been the power of GOD to their salvation how then can you challenge our Ministry Is not this near of kine to that old Anti-Christian question proponed to our Master by what authority dost thou these things And if personal succession had such weight as you say the Priesthood under the law had been at a great loss For the line of it was interrupted oftner then once before the coming of Christ yet he commendeth submission and obedience to them so long as they did sit in Moses chair and no further Matth. 23. 1. So that in Ministers it is the Doctrine and not the Genealogy of persons that is so much regarded Reply In your eleventh Answer you grant personal vices are not a sufficient ground Papists Reply of sepaâ—ation from the Church and say that Protestants did only separat themselves from the worship miserablie polluted and because the Roman Church had Apostatized from the Apostolick Doctrine But Sir let me ask you when the Catholick Roman Church which before your Reformation at least was a true Church Apostatized And who was a competent judge to declare her Apostacie and give you leave to separat Was â—t Scripture as according to your first rule you must say Then I ask if two or three under pretence of a Reformation may adhere to what they think to be in Scripture against the judgement of the whole Church at that time Which â—ssuredly all must grant who teach that the true Church may erre and so give the same libertie to all Sectaries which they take so boldly to themselves But albeit you say your separation was not from our personal vyces yet you impute in the by going heresie denying of the souls immortalitie whoredom to two or three of our Popes Silvester the second Alexander the sixth John the twenty two How justly we shal presently see But however this were true it could no more wrong the Popes authority in his Canonical decrees then Davids adultery or Solomons Idolatrie in penning Scripture Neither is it a great wonder that amongst 240. Popes there have been two or three evil Since even amongst twelve Apostles there was one Judas Nor do Catholicks canonize all their Popes although for these three whom ye name wicked they have 33. most famous Martyrs and Saints What ever they teach as privat doctors as it mâ—keth no law in the Church so it cannot derogat in the least to their decision and doctrine as Popes But to answer for these three what Martinus Polemius and the Magdeburgh say against Silvester the second as a Magician is known by all the learned to be meer fables imputed to him for his eminent knowledge and learning in the Mathematicks which made the ninth Age wherein he lived to call him a Magician because of its gross ignorance Alexander the sixth is also blamed for lewdness by no impartial writter And what Calvin saith lib. 4. instir against John 22. is known to be errour and lies speaking of him as Pope whatever was his opinion as a privat Doctor of the soul before the day of judgement which he disclaimed to be his at his death professing and protesting that he had never any belief but that of the Catholick Church saith John Williams lib. 11. hist cap. 19. But Hereticks speak of Popes as Rebels of Kings discontented subjects of Ministers of state and criminals of their lawful judges which no wise man will much regard Then to shew that we have not an uninterrupted succession you speak first of Anti-Popes as if they did interrupt the succession of Popes more then Usurpers the succession of Kings Secondly Of Popes deposed by Councils but you cannot instance that any lawful Pope was deposed by any general Council what ever Thirdly You say the See of Rome hath vaiked for many years To which I answer as Kings die not so neither Popes as it doth not interrupt the succession of Elective Kings that after the death of one there be long debate before the Election of another the royal power then residing in the Electours so neither interrupteth it the succession of Popes and their Election You speak nothing of your own succession because ye have none You bragge much of a powerful Ministrie but shews no call you had to the Ministrie from GOD nor his Church so we had good reason to challenge it albeit you call this an Anti-Christian question to ask at new upstarts who pretend to reforme the Church who gave you a call because the Jews had such a question to Christ But Christ John 15. 24. saith if he had not shewed himself to be the Son of GOD by his words and works which none else could do no man had been obliedged to belive him Yet ye will have us to believe you are lawful Ministers without succession or a call and that Luther and Calvin were extraordinarily sealed for Reformation without the least sign mark or miracle shewing that they were sent for that end So that in Ministers you conclude it is the Doctrine more then the Genealogie of persons which is so much regarded As if preaching of true doctrine were sufficiant to make a man a Minister without any ordination or call the Scripture expresseth another thing saying how shal they preach except they be sent And as to seek true successsion of Bishops and Pastours in
the Church from the Apostles and their successours were to seek their Genealogy and Birth Such answers are made to deceive the ignorants and to let any rational man know ye have no lawful successsion at all however ye intrude your selves into the Ministrie upon pretence of doctrine as all phanâ—ticks and sectaries do Duply Here is multum scribere and a rabble of ragged discourse to smal purpose Prote ∣ stants Duply passing from Succession which was the question to a call which was formerly answered In the first part how poorly plaister you over the crimes of your three Popes by giving Calvin and the Magdeburgenses and the ages wherein they lived the lie And is this all your vindication of them That it may appear this covering to be too narrow for so foule faults not only have Calvin and the Magdeburgenses said so but Platina Bâ—râ—nius Sigonius c. Are these also lyars These are not authors like Bolsecus the Apostate but such as ye will not deny to be credible witnesses Silvester the 2. lived in the eleventh Centurie and not in the ninth as ye mistake Once he was called Gerbert and studied the Mathematicks saith Onuphrius then turned a consulter with the Devil saith Platina for instance this is brought that he enquired curiously how long he would enjoy the Papacy And the response he received was till he laid Masse in Jerusalem Within four years thereafter he was saying Masse in the corner of the Roâ—d-Church which is called Jerusalem and asking how the Chappel was called it was answered by some Jerusalem Then he knew that his death was near and becoming to be sad he confessed his sins before many witnesses whom he exhorted to bewarre of ambition and commerce with the Devil Some say that he desired his body to be cutted and layd on a cart c. This his tragedie is recorded also by Polid. Virg. de invent rerum lib. 5. Nauclerus vol. 2. gener 34. If these be your Matheticks I will learne none of them So it is sure by testimony of your own that Silvester was a Magician Next ye say that John 23. your Pope is wronged by Calvin for saying that he denyed the immortality of the soul and ye alleadgâ— what ever was his opinion as a privat Doctor of the soul before the day of judgement yet that he recanted his errour and died in the faith of the Church If Calvin wronge him Bell. lib. 4. de Pontif. wrongeth him also for he saith the Cardinals resisted him in this gross tenet and doth disput whither it was heresie seeing it was not defyned in a Council Nauclerus saith that many Divines hold this Pope to be an heretick And his successor Benedict did publickly condemne him and it Erasmus in his preface to the 5. book of Irenaeus saith that he laboured to propagat this heresie in France and being challenged was compelled to recant which he did coldly saith Nauclerus Had â—oâ— Calvin then reason to say that this Pope was heretical Otherwise why was he put to recantation Thirldy Ye say that Alexander the 6. was blamed by no impartial writter Was not Guicâ—ardine †Guice lib. 1. impartial What think ye of Phil. de Comin †Phil. de Bello Neap. was he partial also They give us this relation that he came by bribes to the chair And when Charles the 8. intended warre against the Turke the Pope advertised Bajazet and promised for a suÌ„me of money to make a stop to the expedition which the Turke undertook to pay Was not this a holy Father Further Onuphrius telleth that he was much given to whoredom and did beget four sons and two daughters whom he avouched His familie was stained with incest So that a Poet in these times did write this Epitaphe on his daughter Hoc jacet in tumulo Lucretia nomine sed re Thais Alexandri filia nupta â—urus His death was tragical for having prepared a bottel of poysoned wine for some whom he invited to dinner was poysoned therewith by the ignorance of his Cup-bearer and fell into the ditch which he prepared for others his candle was thus put out and he left an unsavoury snuffe behinde him as his Epitaphe witnesseth written by Ia. Sannazarius who when he hath mentioned his many faults into which pudle I love not to raike shutteth up all with this I nunc Nerones vel Caligulas nomina Turpes vel Heliogabulos Hoc sat viator reliqua non sinit pudor Tu suspicare ambula Then you reflect upon the society of the Apostles where there was one Judas But when he fell did he not cease to be an Apostle and fall from his Ministrie But your Popes continued such till their death infallible and they erred as men but not as Popes This could not be said of Iudas though once an Apostle They are liker to Iudas then any of the rest of the Apostles But to make such a head of Christs Church upon Earth is a strange paradox O but ye say David and Solomon fell yet were pen-men of holy Scripture Ans They penned no Scripture while in that state I hold the Negative you are bound to prove the Affirmative but will never do it Their repentance was more then ordinar witness Psal 51. and the book of Ecclesiastes O if your Popes had a grain weight of their repentance soon would we hear other language from them and you Then you say that Hereticks speak evil of your Popes as criminal persons do of a judge Was Platina a criminal person or heretick and yet he marketh eminent viceâ— in more then 33. Popes Read him and resent your expressions or refute him as ye do Calvin with a broad lie and no more You put us to it to tell the time when Rome became Idolatrous and vitious in the worship c. Which was the ground of our separation This belongeth to the former question Yet to this I say with reverend and learned Bishop Usher Rome was not built in a day nor the great dung-hill of errors which now we see raised in it in an age therefore it is a vain demand Secondly There be a difference betwixt open Heresies which oppose the foundation Prote ∣ stants Duply 2 and Apostacie which the Spirit hath evidently foretold should be brought in by these who speak lies in hypocrisie 1. Tim. 4. 1. 2. The impiety of the one is notorious the other mysterious as the Apostle reâ—â—â—eth it 2. Thess 2. 7. they who watched against the one might sleep while the seeds of the other were in sowing or peradventure might have a finger in bringing in this Trojan-horse under the name of devotion Thirdly Albeit we cannot â—ell day place when and where errours did at first beginne yet that will not make errour truth The Dup 3. Sâ—ddueces taught their was no Resurrection nor Angels can any man tell under what High Priest this errour was broached Shal it be a truth for that So ye have damnable
not to be expected here So ye shew your selves conscious enough of your own divisions and if you understand it in matters of faith it is a blasphemy against Gods word which saith that there be but one GOD one Faith one Baptism If one faith then no division of faith without which no unity can consist So judge you if it be not only a solecism in reason as you speak but also in belief to joyn with the Grecians in Confession of Faith albeit they deny the procession of the Holy Ghost which ye believe or with the Lutherians who hold the real presence of Christs body in the Sacrament which ye flatly deny Duply You grant that the Pope according to Hierom was first chosen that the occasion Prote ∣ stants Duply of Schism might be taken away Then it is clear that the Pope is not Dominicae dispositionis and that Hierom nor the Fathers did ever dream of his Monarchical Empire as Casaubon ad Barronii Annales proveth well Exercit. 15. A Prolocutor is the most they give to the Apostle Peter they call him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this will not make a Pope so by adhereing to Hierom you destroy the Pope And not only was he of this opinion but your own Medina telleth us de sacrorum hominum origini that Ambrose Chrysostom Theodoret Theophylact Oecumenius Sedulius Primasius mantained the same And it is clear that Augustin in quaest Veteris Novi Testament quaest 101. homologaâ—â—h all this I 'le help you further herein to shew that I am no adversary to truth Gregory the Pope prophecied that whoso counted himself universal Bishop was Anti-Christ And writting to John Patriarch of Constantinople epist 38. lib. 4 who did usurpe that tittle he calleth him Rex superbiae Which title Boniface did take on afterwards by Phocas means who killed his Master Mauritius and fulfilled the prophecie of Gregorie Neither John Patriarch of Constantinople nor Boniface excluded other Bishops as Esthius laboureth by this reply to make evasion For both in the Eastern and Western Churches at that time there were Bishops whom they acknowledged such But he is universal Bishop according to Gregorie who layeth claim to the universal supremacy and extolleth himself above all as the Pope now doth in the Church at Rome I shal shut up this answer with that famous consideration of Bernard to Pope Eugenius the 4. which words Antonius de Dominis Arch Bishop of Spalato citteth for refutation of the Popes supremacie Politia Ecclesiast lib. 5. cap. 2. the words are these Hoc quod habuit Petrus hoc dedit solicitudinem quippe super Ecclesias Dominationem nunquam audi ipsum non Dominantes inquit in clerum 1. Peter 5. 3. Et ne dictum sola humilitate non ettam veritate videatur vox Domini est in Evangelio Reges Gentium Dominantur vos non lic I ergo â—u inquit aude tibi usurpare Apostolicus Dominatum aut Dominant Apostolatum plane ab alterutro prohiberis This was written in the 12. Centurie and is a full testimonie proving that Bernard thought not Papal jurisdiction of divine appointment Now sir did you nor palpablie contradict your self here when formerly you equalized your Pope to Prophets Apostles and made your universal High-Bishop jure Divino by saying that the evil of Schism occasioned his election at first if so it is juris humani at best and thus you agree with Hierom. Secondly You would father a contradiction on me because I regrate our rents proceeding from the evil use of Gospell-light as if we held not one confession of faith A child may conceive that the abuse of Gospel-light supposeth the light but it is evil used practically and this maketh our breaches in other things It is beyond controversie that the nationall stroaks under which we groan have chiefly proceeded from the evil use of the Gospell Light hath come amongst us but we have walked in darkness Will it therefore follow that we are not one dogmatically in the orthodox confession of faith Where is this consequence founded Neither doth the Popedome cure rents but rather make them Experience proveth this cure to be the fomenter of the disease For since his usurpation moe controversies have been started in the Christian Church then formerly were heard And if this wer the cure it is admirable that wheÌ„ the case was in Corinth there is no mention of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thirdly You deny that it hath been the sentence or deeree oecumenical that the Councill was above the Pope Was it not expresly defined by the Councill of Basil and doth not the 15 Act of the Councill of Chalcedon say that the Roman Church hath no priviledge above others from Christ But the reason why at any time they had it was because it was the seat of the Roman Empire and that the Bishop of Constantinople hath equall priviledges with the Pope Doe not all your Sorbonists preferre the councill to the Pope and all your Jesuits the Pope to the Councill Where is your Unitie then for as Bellarmin saith In hoc consistit summa rei viz. â—n the Popes infallible universall supremacie without which there is no salvation to be â—â—ad Also ye make it a fundamental article of your Creed which is more then the opinion of privat Doctours And the very truth is it is the foundtion and key-stone of Popery Quo sublato omnia corruunt as he saith there in his Preface to the Treatise de summe Pontisice De qua re agitur cum de primatu Pontisicis agitur Breviter respondeo de summa rei id enim quaeritur debeâ—tne Ecclesia duitius consistere an vero dissolvi concidere Then ye betake your self to this hold that the Pope is above a Council not approved by himself and the Council approveed by him above the Pope But as I said before this giveth no more to a Council then to a Session for if the Pope approve that it is above his own single approbation in regard of the additameÌ„t to it The only question is when they differ whose sentence is to be preferred And about this ye differ much amongst your selves consequently in fundamentals for this is caput rei Fourthly You quarrel with us for saying that perfect unity in all things is not to be expected here And yet it is express Scripture 1. Cor. 13. 9. Phil. 3. 15. founded upon experience How then call you it blasphemie Unitas in fundamentalibus libertas in supra fundameÌ„talibus charitas in omnibus is a saying much commended by many and did we blaspheme by uttering this golden sentence We are in charity with the Lutheran and Greek Church because they hold the same rule with us viz the Scripture The Reformed Churches have a body of Confessions in which they have Concord and we in this Church have one Catechism and one Confession of Faith in which we all agree But to think that because of some
other differences we are not for one GOD one Faith one Baptism it is absurd to speak so Question thirteenth May there not as yet Papists qu. 13 be an accommodation and union betwixt you and us Answer Will ye be like the Church at Rome to which the Apostle Paul did wâ—ite Prote ∣ stants Ans 1 his Epistle we will presently accord with any prosessing that faith and not destroying it by contradicting consequences and practices But ye are no more like that Church of Rome except in name then a strumpet is like to a Virgin The Epistle to the Romans is now against the Romans witness the point of Justification and subjection to the higher powers Secondly Will ye take the Scripture for the only rule of faith worship and manners We differ from none such But ye regard not the Scripture so much as your own traditions For ye fainzie that it is imperfect obscure must have an authoritie from your word otherwise that it is not to be believed Thirdly Those who have intended that work have lost their labour and thanks at all hands as Cassander Antonius de Dominis Barnesius Forbesius What agreemeÌ„t can the Temple of God have with Idols 2. Cor. â— 14. Reply In your 13. Section you answer to a Papists Reply Question which no Catholick would have made if ye understand by an accommodation betwixt you and us such as are in Scottish Trysts We granting something to you and ye something to us For as to gain the whole world a man should not lose his own soul so neither can be quyt one article of his faith without which it is impossible to please God But your way being better asking only two conditions to make this so much desired agreement The first is if ye will be like that Church of Rome to which the Apostle Paul did write his Epistle And the second is that we will take scripture for a rule We most willingly grant you both not taking scripture as every bungler who wresteth it but according to the exposition of the Church and the unanimous consent of the fathers Appoint the meeting where ye please on these terms He challenge no moe calumnies on this Question seeing now we are in terms of agreement having sufficiently confuted them before Duply You say no Catholick would have moved the question Are ye nâ—â— for unitie in the Lord amongst all Christians where is Prote ∣ stants Duply 1 your charitie now I remember you said once nothing here was mentioned by me but what was mentioned by others but now you graunt this hath nor come to your ears formerly this is strange Have you not seen Grotius and de Sancta Clara who move the same wheel At first you seem to be against all accommodation asmuch as against all reformation You cannot quite on article not unum jot a saith Bellarmin otherwise your Church might be declared fallible therefore such as hanker after reconciliation with you unless they mind to come up your length will prove fools in the end and lose all their labour Yet on a sudden you forget your self accepting of these terms offered but in repetition you embezle them unfaithfully For first will ye be like that Church to which the Apostle Paul did writ in point of justification by faith and subjection to the Magistrat These two you leave out being conscious that ye are contrar to divine direction in both these And how cometh it to pass that when the Apostle chap. 16. saluteth so many Saints at Rome he omitteth the Pope If he was then head of the Church and maketh no mention of his supremacie nor of their subjectioÌ„ to him which is summa rei one of your fundamentals seeing chap. 13. he ordained them for conscience sake to be subject to Nero. The world may see that the Apostle Paul hath been no Papist Secondly When you propound the second condition it is propounded lame barely you say that ye hold the Scripture for a ruleâ— but I said for the only rule of faith worship and manners Hold that then ye renounce traditians in matters of faith for the law of the Lord is perfect Ps 19. The Popes infallibility and univeâ—sal supremacie your latine worship communion under one kind prayers to Saints and for the dead Purgatory all which are clearly confuted by Scripture So if ye do not adhere to these conditions the meeting will be to smal purpose where ever it be appointed Justin Martyr Expos recta fidei saith Amongst the children of the Church matters divine must not be ordered and directed according to mens reason and thoughts but our speach and interpretation of them should be sitted to the sense and will of the Spirit of GOD. Basil in Exercit. de Fide It is a manifest defection from the faith and a clear evidence of pride either to reject any of these things which the Scripture contain or to bring in as a point of faith any thing which is not written in the word and he citeth that of our blessed Lord Iohn 10. 5. My sheep hear my voice a stranger they will not hear but flee from him Hilar. lib. 1. de Trinit when we speak of divine matters let us give to GOD the knowledge of himself and let us with all veneration follow his sayings for he is a meâ—t witness to himself who is not known but by himself Aug. lib. 6. Conf. cap. 5. Thou hast perswâ—ded me O GOD that not these men who believe these books which thou in all Ages hast founded upon thy authority are to be blamed but such as believe them not neither are they to be heard If any perchance should say to me whence knowest thou these books to have been ministred to man-kind by the Spirit of the one and most true GOD even that very same thing was mostly to be believed Aug. lib. 2. de Baptismo contra Donatist as Let us not bring false ballanceâ— wherein we may weigh what we will and as we will according to our own arbitriment saying this is heavy that is light but let us bring the divine ballance out of the holy Scriptures as the Lords treasurie and let us weigh in it what is more heavy and weighty Yea let us not weigh only but also acknowledge scriptuval truths to be weighed and determined alreadie by the Lord. Si Scriptura habeat controversiam ex eadem Scriptura adhibitis ejus testibus terminâ—tur Aug. de doctr Chr. lib. 3. cap. 28. Papists Quest. 14 Question fourteenth We are still gaiâ—ing Proselyts from you but few turne off from us and become members of your Church Answere Your pelf and policie is greater Prote ∣ stants Ans 1 then ours hereby simple soules are ensnared Secondly Ye give indulgencies for looseness this catcheth prophaine ones who love to live at random but without some such carnall design or prejudice we hear not that any turn off from us Thirdly Have not sundrie left Rome in the integrity of their heart and closed
uncleanness which would make chaste ears to â—ingle And that men who in hainously are not bound to repent imediatly as it is fully proved by Reverend Learned Mr. MENZIES in his Papismus Lucifugus pag. 158. to 169. And when it is defended that minus probabile may be chosen although it have no ground in scripture contrar to more probable grounds and the stream of Doctors doth not this open a door to make the may of Christianity broad whereas the scripture calleth it strait and narrow Thus ye gaine proselites And it is observable that manâ— loose livers in the land who are adversarieâ— to the power and puritie of Religion hate to be reformed do encline to Popery And to me it is not minus probabile that it is only upon this account We are not against fasting chastity mortification Nor do we say that men sin not willingly or that good workes are impossible yea we hold them necessar to salvation Only we deny that faln man can be justified by the workes of the law otherwise we needed not a Saviour not a Gospell-remedy It is your ordinar way to mistate questions and then intend a skirmish which is easie work this is a sinfull and shallow evasion Thirdly You fall out with bauling expressions which rational men cannot value much and scoâ—fe at these worthies who did take their lives in their hands and closed with persecuted truth neither for gaine nor for honor but for conscience sake Was not this a commendable duty If self denyall be not a chief ingredient in Christian performances I know not the Gospell You assert that it was blindness not integrity I averse it was integrity and not blindness Who art thou that judgest another mans servant remember thou shalt be judged You talk much concerning the authority and unity which is amongst you but some who were at Rome and have come not long ago from you to us againe tell what sort of integritie puritie and chastitie is amongst you So it is no wonder albeit many tongues and pennâ— be employed to pull down that whorish Babell which ye call Zion Fourthly You imply that none can be saved but such as are subject to the Pope Therefore our run-awayes must nor be apostats with you for they are Prodigals returned and lost sheep found When I pray you went they from you to us Were they not baptized in our Church and partakers of all ordinances with us till of late Then I pose you and them again whither ye damn all who are not Popish and judge them unconverted If they be Hereticks in your sense this must follow Yet you have nor the confidence to speak it directly And sure I am Scripture requireth not subjection to the Pope as an article of the Creed If without this â— man cannot be saved albeit he believe and live like the Gospel the Apostle Paul was no chosen Vessel which is contrar to Scripture there was no Pope in his dayes nor long after that Your Church hath been visible by bell book and candle fire faggot pomp policie Your Pastours are more for the fleece then the flock Ye are superstitiouâ— by addition substractioÌ„ multiplication without any warrand Your Ceremonies are partly Paganish partly Jewish and for the most Schismatick so not religious nor venerable Your miracles woÌ„ders are such that it is good for you to have them wrought in America and told in Europe Like are ye to him who cometh with lies and wonderâ— 2. Thess 2. 9. Your conscience can witness what Leger-demain is in these And it is our way to try miracles by the Scripture I wish Infidels were converted to the Christian faith and not to a faction By the Scripture noâ— by fopperies and military Compulsators Stephen the Apostles and some primitive Fathers were Martyrs but they died not in the Romish Faith as it is now mantained And how can your Church be called Catholick which is a particular one wherein be many dissenters It is not strange to us albeit ye indulge them who runne away and Apostatize from us but it is strange why they have done so and what hath sascinated them to burst all bonds and swallow on a sudden the whole bulk of Popery It requireth an Ostrich stomach to digest such iron Where in did Gospel-truths Gospel-worship or their mother and nurse weary them testifie against her if they can Fifthly You say we have Faith without unity then you grant us faith and our unity in fundamentals is more then your own A Church without a head We acknowledge no Pope head of our Church Christ is our head and the visible Government of the Church is Aristocratical not Monarchical the mystical Members of his Body are united in him so we are not a body without united members Neither want we a Judge in controversal matters It is known that many points of Christianity cannot be judged by râ—en because the Kingdom of Grace is within us and consisteth not in meat or drink but righteousness peace and joy in the holy Ghost Rom. 14. 17. Who will say that the hidden man in the heart can be cognosced by any external living judge on earth The spiritual man â—udgeth all things but he himself is judged of no man 1. Cor. 2. 15. The written word is the rule of this and other such cases For other matters we have Councils and Church Ruleâ—s appointed by the supream Judge who are bound to discern according to Scripture and all are appointed to obey them in the Lord so we have not a Law without a Judge The golden Altur is our Altar we have sacrifices of Prayer and Praises and one living sacrifice is better then many carcases that is reasonable service Rom. 12. 1. Then we have order and decencie and such positives as set forth the worship in a Gospel way without pâ—mpous observation therefore we lack not an Altar Sacrifices and Ceremonies in such manner as Gospel-work under the New Testament requireth Our Sacraments are instruments to seal and sanctifie our rule is infallible for it is Scripture the grounds of our faith are such as will not make us ashamed for we have his revealed will and word for it Therefore it is a calumny to say we have Sacraments which do not sanctifie Doctrine without infallibility and Belief without a ground If our Preachers had runne unsent the Lord had not sealed their Ministrie with such success Ier. 23. 32. It may be spoken without vanity to the praise of free-grace that there be many real sincere serious solid Christians in BRITTAIN Blessed be the Lord we go not without our CoÌ„verts who can speak with any adversary in the gate And they will and do bless our Ministry upon the brink of eternity which hath been the power of GOD to their Salvation So our Ministry is not without a call we say not that any divine command is in it self impossible to be keeped but that fallen man through his own fault is imperfect in obedience
seem to me against our oath of supremacie not to acknowledge any other judge in matters of controversie then scripture Seeing there his Majestie is said to be and we sworn to acknowledge him supream judge in all cases as well Civil as Eclesiastick and I pray God that Preachers and Ministers to whom only you ascribe the power of herauldry had not taken on the coat of arms these years bygon to publish any other sentence then that which did proceed from the mouth of that supream judge Answer first The Scripture we call a rule Pro. An. because it maketh the man of GOD perfect 2. Tim. 3. 16. as a rule doth a line and the Duply 1. doctrine therein is termed a judge Metonymically properly a judge is a person because it is the voice of a supreame judge who is our law-giver This we speak with the Scripture Io. 12. 48. Io. 7. 51. and Heb. 4. 13. It is the descerner of the thoughts of the heart Where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is given to it You grant here that it is our law book Ergo Metonymically our judge and determiner it must be for we appeal to the law for judgement To this the Apostle Paul appealeth Act. 26. 22. Then there be many cases incident to a Christian in his spiritual exercise which none on earth can judge The spiritual one is judged of no mam 1. Cor. 2. 15. yet this will discern the thoughts of his heart The divine doctrine now written is the only impartial infallible determiner he who heareth not Moses the Prophets and the Apostles will not hear one risen from the dead Conscience is a rule Rom. 2. 14. a witness Rom. 2. 15. and a judge 1. Io. 3. 20. 21. It is to be considered that there is a difference betwixt humane Courts and this work the one concerneth temporals wherein we may be ruled by reason but here in matters of salvation we must have an infallible rule by revelation albeit in humane Courts the rule the witness and the judge are different for guarding against corruption to which fallen man is subject yet in foro divino in the court of GOD one may be witness judge rule accuser such is the scripture The Spirit of GOD speaketh there Is it not the law the testimony the canon or rule Gal. 6. 16. is it not a witnesser a warner Ps 19. 11. doth it not speak to men Rom. 9. 17. and will it not judge us hereafter The word which I speak to you will judge you in the last day Io. 12. 48. if then why now is it not our judge Further the judgement of discretion is but a discretive faculty no proper bench and liker a watch then a judge for it hath no authority over others the Ministerial authority is subordinâ—t and more like the office of a steward nor of a proper judge 2. Cor. 1. 24. Only the written word is the determiner and the Lord speaking there is absolute supreame judge from whom there is no appealing Answer second If the second be as good as the first it is well for notwithstanding of all Pro. An. 2 your weapon-shews you yeeld in the end what I said that we should go to the law and testimony with all our cases and that the scripture to any believer and right discerner hath divine authority Heavenly majestie and maketh spiritual impressions on the soul If it have divine authority is it not judge was there any more asserted in the first answer we hold the same similitude the King is head of Council and Session the law ratified by King and Parliament is the rule and the officers of Council and Session are administrators So our Lord Jesus is the head of his Church the written Word is the law and the Ministers of the Gospel are administrators by whom the people are directed and instructed But if the officers go contrar to the will of the King and his law the subjects may appeal from their administration to the acts of Parliament and hear the Kings pleasure when subjects wrong their inferiours and neighbours See Ps 85. 8. Hear what the Lord will say and who hath ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit sayeth to the Churches Answer third Ministers of the Gospel are called Messengers Rev. 2. 2. Cor. 8. 23. So Pro. An. 3 were they termed under the law Mal. 2. 7. and doth not the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 oft used for Preacher in the N. T. signify a cryer or herauld Why then do you scoff at Scripture As for your prayer it seemeth you pray all by the book and here you are beside it present or future things are the object of prayer but that factum should be infectum to pray that a thing done should be undone is an unwarrantable petition what hath been wrong in us heretofore should be regrated what is or hath been right is the object of praise but your prayer is unwarrantable and impossible Answer fourth Albeit our Soveraign Lord Pro. An. 4 the Kings Majestie be supream magistrat according to the Scripture 1. Pet. 2. 13. and ex officio a nursing father to the Church Is 49. 23. to whom every man civil or Ecclesiastick doth owe subjection Rom. 13. 1. Yet it will not follow that the word of GOD is not the supream determiner of all controversies in Religion Whatsoever primitive Fathers gave to Constantine the great Theodosius elder and younger c. that we give to our Soveraign Lord the King And there be no Church on earth which by their confessions of faith honour the Magistrat more then we Yet notwithstanding of this prerogative asserted and mantained against Papists by our †Viz. Bp. Bilson de Subject Usher Dr. Strang. Divines Our Soveraigne Lord the Kings Majestie will not deny that the scripture is the determiner of all the Articles of our faith seeing he mantaineth the 39. Articles of the Church of England whereof this is one Answer fifth How cometh it to pass that Pro. An. 5 you own the oath of supremacie By calling it ours seeing the main scop of that oath was to renounce the Pope his jurisdiction in the Kings dominions you must either have a dispensation for this that you here subscribe a renunciation of the Popes supremacie or else you will be declared apostar at Rome And no Papist keeping his principles can averre that wich is here set down under your hand Question third If the Scripture be judge why be there so many controversies undecyded Pa. Qu. Answer The perverseness of men is to blame for this Unstable unlearned ones wrest the Scripture to their own perdition Pro. An. 2. Pet. 3. 16. and make difficulties where there be none As much as containeth the way to salvation is plain in Scripture so that he who runneth may read and learn Reply In your third answer you please me Pap. Reply well and it confirmeth all I have said but refuteth your former answer to the full For if the
Praxeas the defence oâ— Christians against Idolatry c. The Martyr Cyprian who lived anno 258. writteth some eplstles treatises and sermons about the cases of his time Lactantius and Arnobius flourished in the beginning of the fourth Centurie and did writ against the Gentiles but the Popish trash was unknown to them So it is not strange albeit the Negarives of our Religion were not handled directly by the Fathers seeing then the Popish controversies were not started however the Jesuits do wâ—est some sayings of these Fathers for their own ends yet an attentive Reader will find that they make not for them as Scultetus and Dr. Forbes Dr. Usher and Dr. Morton have sufficiently proved In the following ages they had to do with Arrius Macedonius Nestorius Eutiches but Popery then was under the hatches and the decrees of the Trent Council wholly unknown Further controversies betwixt us and Papists can hardly be decided by the Fathers for some of them made retractations others held forth the opinion of others frequently then what they propose sometime is esteemed by them probable not certain and all of them Printed since the Trent council have been castrated by the Popish Index expurgatorius Therefore they cannot be thought the sittest Umpyres in our present debates neither are they made judges either by the Popish partie or ours for they appeal to the Pope we to the Scriptures and do make use of them as Commentators and historians only Further the Fathers desire us to look on them only as such I shal ciâ—e three testimonies proving this to the full One is that of Augustin in his opist to Hierom concerning the interpretation of the 2. chap. to the Galatians When he is pressed with the testimonie of old authours Ego didici hunc honoreÌ„ deferre tantuÌ„ Scripturarum libris qui Cano ni ci appellantur ut nullum eorum authorum in scribendo aliquid errasse firmâ—tâ—r credaâ— nec arbitror mi frater te velle tuos libros sic lâ—gi tanquam Prophetarum Apostolorum i. e. I have learned to give that honour onlâ— to the books of Scripture which are canonick thâ—t their authours have not errod And a little thereafter I do not think my brother that you would have your books so read as the books of the Prophets and Apostles The second testimony is in his third Epistle to Fortunatus Nec quorumlibet disputationes tanquam Scripturas Canonicâ—s habere debemus ut non liceat salva honorisicentia quae iis debetur aliquid in eorum scriptis improâ—are si forte aliter senserint quam veritas habet talis ego sum in scriptis aliorum tales volo esse lectores meorum i. e. We ought not to look on the writtings of men as the Scriptures of GOD but may disprove that which is not truth in their books if they have not set down the truth such I am in the writings of others such I desire to be the readers of my own The third testimony is that of Hierom lib. 2. contra Ruffinum where speaking of Origen and other Fathers he saith fierâ— potest ut simpliciter â—rrarint vel alio sensâ— scripsâ—rint vel à librariis imperitis eorum scripta paulatim corrupta sunt vel antequam Arrius natus sit minus caute loquâ—ti sint i. e. It may be they have erred and spoken in another sense or their books have been corrupted or before Arrius they have not spoken so warily on the point If then we hold Fathers in their own room according to their desire no wrong is done to them Fourthly That none think we disside the Fathers or Councils it will be found that pure antiquity savoureth us more then Popery This you deny and cites for you Beza his epist ad Dudithium whereby your studied endeavour to deceive people may appear for Beza there is only answering an objection brought in amongst others by Dudithius for resolution that he might be confirmed in the faith by him Wherein Beza doth judiclously give resolution Will it then follow that Dudithius was of this opinion So deal you with Martyr and Chemnitius who assert no such thing It is known both of them were good Antiquaries and confirm our tenets by several testimonies of Ancients It is like you have taken these citations from your Index and not from the Authours Neither Luther Calvin Whitgift Fulke or any reformed Divine hold from Fathers or Councils their due Yea we reverence them more then ye do You bring the four Councils for the Popes universal supremacie and infallibility If this be not it which you intend to prove your answer meereth noâ— mine This is a negative of our Religion was it heard of the first 300 years You say not so But in the next 300. years was the Popes universal supremacie or infallibility heard of This you alleage and by providence contradict your self it is known that in the Council of Nice no mention is made of an universal far less infallible Pope You cite the 29. Canon of the Nicaen Council whereas there were but 22. of them in whole saith Ruffinus lib. 1. cap. 6. Their sixth Canon is far from that If that had been in their Creed they needed no Council the Pope in Cathedra would have done all And in the council of Constantinople they establish the power of their own Patriarch Why then say you that he was established there universal infallible Monaâ—ch of the whole Church Will ye remember better your connexions Was he Peters successour according to the council of Ephesus Then no universal Monarch He was a Presbyter an Elder not a Lord over GODS heritage see 1. Peter 5. 3. Thirdly Expone this and reconcile it with the Popedom if you can Was he Patriarch of old Rome Then no universal head these two seem to clash and the council wordeth it better But why do you not mention his infallibility in your Reply It is the koy of Popery and let you it thus slip out amongst your hands Not one Father or primitive Council is cited for this The Council of Chalcedon saith expresly that the Pope of Rome hath no priviledge from Christ above others but only because it was the seat of the Roman Empire Act 15. you will not then have the four Councils for you except you coine some new acts as the 29. of Nice By which also it may appear how groundless and vain your boasting is of having 90. Fathers of an 100. for this point The opposition of the Ancients thereto is clearly demonstrated by learned Morton in his Grand Impostor Here that you seem not to be silent you bring forth impertinently these texts of Scripture formerly explained Tell the Church c. To which I referre the Reader for satisfaction there be no more priviledge there concerning the Church of Rome then the Church of SCOTLAND and not so much as it is how constituted and adulterated We do believe an universal Church but it is far from our thoughts that
Rome is it We allow Ministerial helps for expounding Scripture but do not renounce the judgement of discretion in Christians And concerning interpretation of Scripture infallibility of Pope or Council and the priviledges of the universal Church enough is formerly mentioned And these your so often repeated cavils are aboundantly refuted and what you say you did in your Reply to my sixt Answer is refuted by me in my Duply thereto For this is Crambe recocta Lastly You cite some Fathers of the first 3. ages against our negatives and would hold is in hand that they mantained them as Articles of their Creed But ye cite spurious Authours as Origens Threni or Lament Cyprian de Coena St. Andrew St. Dennis c. some of which your own writters call in question see Bellurmin de Script Eccl. pag. 83. de Euchar. lib. 2. cap. 9. Iustâ—n Martyr †In his Apology to Antonius the Emperour is brought for transubstantiation which is a manifest untruth For the words of Iustin Martyr are these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. i. e. That sanctified Food wherewith our blood and flesh by conversion is nourished iâ— that which we are taught to be the Body and Blood of Christ If it be food wherewith out blood and flesh is nourished then where iâ— your Transubstantiation There it is bread in substance and the Body of Christ in signification and Sacramental relation If you please by this you may be convinced of your errour ignorance and boldness It is as untrue that Cyprian said or meaned so except in a Sacramental sense for in his 63. epist he saith Invenimus Vinum fuisse quod Sanguâ—nem suum dixit i. e. We find that it was the winâ— which he called his blood and in his 76. epist he saith quando domâ—nus appellat panem corpus suum vinum sanguinem populum nostrum quem portabut indioat adunatum i. e. When our Lord calleth the bread his Body and the wine his Blood he signifyeth that we being many are one lump of bread As for the proof of the Mass from St. Andrew I can find no such book and amongst all the Ecclesiastick writters in the first 300. years there was no mention made of him If he making for your behove could be produced as an Author it is strange how Bellarmâ—n hath forgotten to name him So I cannot take this authour off your hand But this is sure Eusebius lib. 8. Dem. Evang. in fine calleth the Bread 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the memorial of his Body the Image of his Body Then it is no sacrifice nor corporally the Body And seeing it is really relatively and symbolically such we would not have it now abused by negligence Origen saith no more hom 13. on Exod. we say no less For Purgatory you cite Tertullian in the second Age and Cyprian in the third neither of which were for it For Tertull. lib. de Patien saith Christum laedimus cum evocatos quosdam ab eo quasi miserandâ—s non aequanimiter accipimus As if they who are called hence and be with Christ were in a pityful state having obtained their desire Phil. 1. 23. and Cyprian de immortalitate saith Ad refrigerium justi vocantur ad supplicium injusti câ—piuntur velocâ—uâ— tutelâ— sidentibus persidis poena i. e. The just aâ—e called to refreshing resâ— the wicked are taken to punishment safety cometh very swiftly to Believers and punishment to unbelievers And Cyprian saith lib. adversus Demetrianum Aevi temporalis fine completo ad aeternae vel mortis vel immortalitatis hospitia divdimur Et ibidem Quando illinâ— excessum fuerit nullus jam locus poenitentiae est nullus satisfactionis â—effectus ad mortalitatem sub ipsa morte transitur i. e. When men depart out of this world there is no place thereafter for repentance no effect of satiâ—faction at death men pass over to immortality It is true they grant Probatory afflictions and the siery tryal here Some of them also deny full fruition to the Elect till the day of judgement But for Purgatory till the sixth Age it was not known then Gregory the first mantained it Dial. lib. 4. cap. 39. Neither can that prison Matth. 5 be understood of Purgatory as shal be afterwards proved I shal close this point with Iustin Murtyr resp ad Orthod quest pag. 75. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. After the departure of the Soul out of the Body immediatly there is a separation of the just from the unjust for the souls of the righteous are brought to Paradise and the souls of the wicked are taken to hell Then you prove Prayer to the dead from Clemens epist 1. de Sancto Petro and Tertul. de cor mil. I shal not insist on that Apocryphal Epistle but for Tertullian he and others prayed for a joyful Resurrection to them And hence are some Panegyricks concerning them which were rather to profit themselves then the party deceased as Augustin telleth us in Enchir ad Laurentium they were Consolationes vivorum You offer also to make out by St. Dennis that they in primo primitiva Ecclesia prayed to Saints and Angels As for the first citation to you who professe to believe the Scriptures of GOD and do yet stumble weak ones with thornie questions concerning their authority it will not be unexpedient for me who cannot find such a writter in the second Centurie for you cannot mean Dionysius the Areopagit who lived in the 1. Centurie nor Dionysius Alexandrinus who lived in the 3. Centurie To enquire I say of you whither was there such a Saint And if that be made out whither did he writ any book at all And if so if this be the book which you call his I will not take the Popes word for it nor yours seeing both Hierom and Bellarmin leave him out of their history When these questions are answered I shal prepare an answer for his testimony But it is more strange that you cite Origen who writting against the Pagan Celsus in this point of prayer to Saints and Angels lib. 8. pag. 432. 433. saith expresly to whom we give the first fruits to him we send our prayers to the great high Priest Jesus the Son of GOD who is entered into Heaven This is like your testimonie from Dudithius if that be Origen you cite for Origens Threni or Liment to be spurious some judicious do averre as Erasmus so Barronius tom 2. ad annum 253. here is a retractation Your own Salmeron telleth us to more purpose the reason why in the primitive times there was no invocation of Saints and Angels Quia occasio daretur gentibus put andi sibi exhibitos multos Deos pro multitudine divorum disp 8. iâ— 1. Tom. 2. As for the sign of the Cross it is true Tertullian is for it in these places named and it was in use amongst Christians when they had to do with Pagans and some who are not of your communion make use of it