used as a means to get Money 5. By these Indulgences men are hindred from a true Repentance for they pretend to release Men by them both from Sin and Punishment at least the People are suffer'd to think so if they do but say so many Prayers or go in Pilgrimage to such a place or fast so many days from some kinds of Meats or give a large sum of Money for the building of a Church or go to War against Infidels c. Quest. 15. Why do not you think Auricular Confession to a Priest necessary to Salvation Here you must Note That we are not against Confession in the Church of England nay our Church presses it both publick and private to God and Confession to a pious and able Minister if the Conscience be burden'd and upon a Death-bed but we dare not say as they do in the Church of Rome that a Man cannot be pardon'd or saved except he Confesses to a Priest 1. We allow not of it in the sense of the Church of Rome Because there is nothing in the Word of God that makes the neglect of it Damnable 2. The Confession used in the Primitive Church was made by scandalous Sinners publickly in the Congregation and therefore is not the same with that practis'd in the Church of Rome which commands the Confessing all mortal Sins with their Circumstances into the ear of a Priest at set times and before the receiving of the Sacrament 3. Since it is not of Divine but Ecclesiastical Institution it cannot be absolutely necessary to Salvation 4. It cannot be a Sacrament as they make it in the Chuch of Rome because it wants Christ's Institution 5. This Confession to a Priest as it is managed in the Church of Rome is no Check but rather an Encouragement to Sin Quest. 16. UUhy do not you believe that the Church of Rome is the only Catholick Church and the Mistriss of all other Churches Answ. I can never believe that the Church of Rome is the only Catholick Church 1. Because there are vast multitudes of Christians in the World which are not in actual Communion with the Church of Rome and yet are Members of the Catholick or which is the same of Christ's universal Church dispersed all the World over 2. To say That the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church is to say That a part is the whole or that a House is a whole City or that one Member is the whole Body 3. The Primitive Christians did not take the Church of Rome for the only Catholick Church 4. God hath no where in Scripture declared so much 5. To say the Church of Rome is the only Catholick Church is a most uncharitable Doctrine and to Damn the greater part of the Christian World 6. All Churches that do hold the ancient Faith contain'd in the three Creeds are Members of the Catholick Church 7. The Church of Rome is so far from being the only Catholick Church that her strange Doctrines make her at the best but a very unsound Member of the Catholick Church I do not believe That the Church of Rome is the Mistress of all other Churches in the World 1. Because there is no such Authority given her in the word of God 2. The Superiority she Claims is nothing but Usurpation 3. The Asian and African Churches heretofore rejected her Authority 4. The Eastern Churches at this day despise her Pride and pretended Authority 5. The Church of England was a free Church from the beginning and therefore justly maintains her Freedom and how should that Church be Mistress of all other Churches that takes Liberty to change Christ's Institutions and Commands and contradicts the Word of God Quest. 17. Doth the Church of Rome differ from the Church of England in any other Points Answ. Yes for she holds 1. That Extreme Unction is a Sacrament necessary to Salvation 2. That it is unlawful for Priests to Marry 3. That she is infallible 4. That the Scripture is not to be read in a vulgar Language by the common People 5. That the Books call'd Apocrypha are Canonical Scripture 6. That the Church of England had no Power to Reform her self All which we deny as contrary to Scripture and Reason Quest. 18. Why do not you believe that Extreme Unction is a Sacrament necessary to Salvation Ans. 1. Because that Unction or anointing sick Persons Jam. 5. 14 15. was a miraculous Gift and therefore not necessary to be continued 2. Christ did never institute this miraculous Unction as a Sacrament 3. The Unction they use in the Church of Rome hath no miraculous effects 4. The Apostles an̄ointed sick Persons that they might recover In the Church of Rome they anoint dying Persons who are past Recovery 5. In that place of St. James the saving of the sick Person is ascribed to the Prayer of Faith not to the anointing 6. The Sacrament of the Lords Supper is sufficient to comfort the dying Man Quest. 19. Why do you look upon their forbidding Priests to marry as unlawful Answ. 1. Because St. Paul permits a Bishop and indeed all Clergy-men to marry 1 Tim. 3. 2. 8. 11. Tit. 1. 6. 2. The same Apostle saith to all Men in general It is better to marry than to burn 1 Cor. 7. 9. 3. The same Apostle calls forbidding to marry a Doctrine of Devils 1 Tim. 4. 1. 3. 4. St. Peter himself an Apostle and a Priest was a married Man 5. Several of the Bishops in the Primitive Church were married Men such as Spiridion Chaereman Phileas Gregory Nyssen Gregory Nazianzen both Father and Son Hilary and others 6. It was Pope Hildebrand or Gregory VII the same that first presumed to depose Soveraign Princes that made the Clergy renounce their Wives contrary to Scripture a Man guilty of the greatest Crimes imaginable Quest. 20. Why do not you believe the Church of Rome infallible Answ. 1. Because it is only a Pretence founded neither in Scripture nor Antiquity 2. It is a Church that hath err'd both in Doctrine and the Worship of God most notoriously 3. God hath no where promis'd to make any one Church infallible 4. Themselves are not agreed where this Infallibility lies whether in the Pope or in a general Council or in the diffusive body of Christians 5. The Word of God is the only infallible Rule to walk by 6. There is no need of a visible infallible Judge for deciding of Controversies For 1st Controversies may be decided without such a Judge as they were in the Primitive Church the Bishops meeting in Council and arguing against Hereticks from the Word of God 2d A meek humble peaceable and charitable Temper would decide Controversies better than all the pretended infallible Judges in the World 3d. We do not find that when there were infallible Judges here on Earth such as Christ and his Apostles that all Controversies did cease Notwithstanding their presence there were Schisms and Heresies even among the Christians 1 Cor. 11. 19.
People These must certainly be the Reasons why we cannot now pass with the Church of Rome for Members of the Catholick Church That these things were not in the Antient Catholick Creeds I hope you are convinced for you have read them over and found none of all these Additions in them And now I beg of you in the name and by the mercy of that Jesus in whom you believe to judge which is most likely to be the truly Catholick Church ours or theirs Ours that keeps to the truly antient Catholick Faith or theirs that hath added things contrary to Scripture and Reason and Antiquity And dare you continue in a Church where your very Communion with it is an Approbation of their Actions which are directly contrary to the command of Christ Can there be any thing more contrary to it than their denying the Cup to the Laity And when you receive the Sacrament but in one kind contrary to Christ's Command do not you sin and allow of the Sin of that Church you are in Is not your Disobedience to Christ's Command a Sin or can you imagine that you are more obliged to obey Men than Christ himself You confess you dare not live in any one Sin But how dare you live in this Sin You talk of the benefit of Confession and Absolution when that very Priest to whom you confess and who absolves you lives in that Sin you are guilty of and neither absolves himself nor you from it and you both continue in it as if the Blind had a mind to lead the Blind How dare you act thus against your Reason and Conscience Are you not afraid when you are going to confess that God will laugh at your Mock Confession since you neither confess that Sin of living contrary to Christ's Command about the Cup nor are willing to part with it Tell me not here that you drink the Blood of Christ in eating his Flesh if so to what purpose doth the Priest consecrate Wine for himself if he drinks the Blood of Christ in eating his Flesh But suppose the Bread were transubstantiated into the Flesh and Blood of Christ you know that the not giving the Cup of Blessing to those that come to the Lord's Supper is contrary to Christ's Institution who distinctly consecrated the Cup and gave that to his Disciples who were Representatives of all Believers as well as the Bread and peremptorily commanded Drink ye all of this and I hope you do not call eating the consecrated Wafer drinking the Wafer But let Us grant you your strange Doctrine that you do participate of the Blood of Christ in eating the consecrated Wafer who gave your Church Authority to alter Christ's Institution How can Men dispence with an express Law of God Can they annull what God would have Established and continue to the Worlds end And can you consent to so great a Sacriledge Doth not some horror seize on you when you seriously think that you approve of the Priests sinning against so notorious a Precept and which he that runs may read And pray Madam wherein have you bettered your self in going over to the Roman Church Is this your proficiency in Religion to forsake a Church where you felt the lively Oracles of Heaven coming warm upon your Soul and to joyn your self to a Church where you hear nothing but Latine Prayers and where the Priest if he be not a good man may as well Curse you as Bless you for any thing you understand of his Language or Devotion Is this Your proficiency in Religion to leave a Church where you were taught to Worship God in Spirit and in Truth and now to cleave to one where they teach your Prayers to go upon Crutches of Crucifixes Beads and Images Doth this look like that Noble Religion which Christ taught the World and whose design was to advance our Rational Souls by Contemplation and Meditation O Madam you are too Young to know the Tricks of that Church you live in they are more politick Heads than yours is that had the contriving of it Bold Men that had Learnt not to Blush at a Lye and then thought it their interest to Hector the World into a belief of it We that can Read Books as well as they and know the History of the Church as well as they can see through all these devices which they perceiving are angry with Us for discovering the Cheat. What was it Madam that you wanted in our Church to carry you to Heaven did you want that which the Apostles and the Primitive Christians never wanted I mean did you want more Articles of Faith than they subscribed and believed If you wanted that we Confess we could not supply you for we dare say nothing and believe nothing with Divine Faith but what Moses and the Prophets and Christ and his Apostles have taught us If the Scripture contains all things necessary to Salvation then we teach all that If the Church of ROME knows more Articles than Christ or his Apostles knew of we will admire her insolence but cannot satisfie her unreasonable desire Did you want strictness of Life in our Church If all the Commands of the Gospel can make you Holy We teach them all and press them upon the People and I presume you do not aim to be Holier than Christ and his Apostles would have you to be Hath the Church of ROME another Gospel to teach you than that we did instruct you in if they have much good it may do them We are not fond of the Apostle's Curse Should an Angel from Heaven bring another Gospel to you let him be accursed I know your common Plea that We Protestants cannot rightly interpret the Scripture because We pretend to no infallibility And do you blame Us for not being so impudent as the Church of ROME There is no Protestant but would be glad there were an infallible Interpreter of Scripture instituted by God and recommended to Mankind But where shall we find him Who is it that God hath imparted this Honour to If you say the Fathers you know not what you say for the Fathers differ many times as much in interpretation of the Scipture and are as contrary to one another as any Men. If you say the Church that 's a hard Word if you mean Christ's Universal Church dispersed all the World over you must tell us where it is that this Church hath left an infallible Comment upon the Bible and how is it possible for a man that will be resolved in a point to go to all Christian People in the World if you say the Church of ROME you must first shew Us her Commission for this infallible interpretation Secondly you must prove She hath infallibly interpreted the Scriptures and that those interpretations are infallible in all places Thirdly you must agree among your selves what part of your Church is infallible whether the Pope or an Universal Council or all Christian People or whether all these
together To say that this Infallibility lies in the Church though you know not where is to say a Needle lies in a Bottle of Hay and he hath good luck that finds it Nay I think the Church of ROME hath been so modest that notwithstanding all her pretences to infallibility She never hath dared to obtrude a Comment on the Bible as infallible nor did I ever see any Interpretation of the Bible made either by Pope or Council which hath pretended to Infallibility If that Church be infallible why do not their own Divines agree in Interpretation of Scripture if there be an infallible Sense of the Scriptures in that Church then the Members of that Church are mad not to keep to that infallible Sense especially if they know where to fetch it and they offer great injuries and affronts to their Church in differing so much about interpretation of Scripture when their Church can give them an infallible Sense of it For that Church having as they pretend the Holy Ghost to guide them in all things I suppose that Spirit assists her in Interpretation of one place of Scripture as well as in another if they say it doth infallibly assist them in some places and not in all they destroy their own Principle and how shall a man be sure that just in those Points that are in dispute between Us and them they are Infallible Is the Spirit divided Or is he not always the same Or doth not he exert his power upon all occasions Madam who so blind as those that will not see Who sees not that the pretence of Infallibility is nothing but a juggle a device to maintain a tripple Crown and an Engine to carry on a temporal Authority God indeed hath promised that his Church dispersed thro' the World shall last to the World's end and that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her but that promise differs very much from a promise of Infallibility and suppose it did inferr an Infallibility how comes the particular Church of ROME to ingross it to her self that is at the best but a Member and a very unsound one of Christ's Universal Church It is one thing to be secured against being destroyed and another to be free from all possibility of Errour There is no doubt but a sober rational man that prays earnestly for illumination and reads the Scripture much and considers the Circumstances the Holy Writers were in when they writ and the Occasions of their writing and hath the advantage of Learning of Languages and History may give a very true Interpretation of Scriptures such an Interpretation as no man can rationally contradict tho' he hath not recourse to a Visible infallible Guide and tho' himself be not infallible Things may be very certain tho' they are not infallibly so and he that can make things out so that a prudent man cannot but give consent to them and hath no just cause to doubt of their truth may justly challenge belief from other men But I will not insist upon this point because I never heard you speak much of it I will come a little closer to those reasons that moved you to go over to the Roman Church whereof the principal was this that you were troubled in mind upon the account of your Sins could get no satisfaction in Our Church tho' you sought it like Esau with tears whereas you did no sooner confess to a Roman Priest and receive Absolution but you presently found unspeakable comfort And are you sure Madam that the peace and satisfaction you found in that Church was not delusion you tremble at that word but le ts consider the Nature of your peace When you were in our Church either you did truly repent of all your Sins or you did not If you did not most certainly you could have no solid peace but if you did truly repent as you say you did what could hinder you from applying the Promises made to penitent Sinners to your self which are the true grounds of comfort and satisfaction may be you wanted a Voice from heaven to confirm the Promise of the Gospel but have you since heard such a Voice from heaven in the Church of Rome I think not if you truly repented in our Church then certainly by the Word of God you were assured that your Sins were pardoned and if they were pardoned why should you not comfort your self with that pardon That which makes you rejoice now is because you believe your Sins are pardoned but if when you were of our Church you verily believed you truly repented you could not but believe that your Sins were pardoned and consequently you might have taken as much comfort as you do now But the Minister of the Church of England you say gave me no absolution which the Roman Priest did Why Madam did any of our Ministers deny your Absolution when you could assure them that your Repentance was sincere did you ever ask Absolution and were you refused Nay I appeal to your Conscience did not those Ministers you conversed withal assure you over and over that you need not doubt of the pardon of your Sins so long as you did detest and abhor them and watch and strive and pray against them and were sincerely resolved to commit them no more and did avoid the very occasions of Evil and what was this but Absolution which however you might have had performed with greater Ceremony if you had had a mind to it It is no very hard matter to guess at the rise and progress of your peace and satisfaction in the Roman Church All new things please and provided they have but a good face allure our fancy and this being pleased it 's very natural to defend them and having once defended them our Love to them advances and by degrees we think our Honour and Credit is too far engaged to part with them We see how Children are quieted with new trifles pardon the uncourtly comparison I know not how to shun it and the new object they never saw before surprizes and charms them makes them fix their Eyes upon it and cry if they cannot have it In the nature of Children we see our own and embracing new objects which our sickly fancy is roving after is but the Scene of Childrens longing for new play things changed the Novelty of the thing you were venturing upon the new Church new indeed new to you and new to Almighty God which you were to joyn your self to the Stool of Confession in the Church and the Priests new habit and mortified face which perhaps he owes more to his Country than to his Vertue and affected gravity and assuring of you that their absolution had a wonderful Vertue and Efficacy all these together surprized you and raised your expectation and struck some kind of reverence into you Your mind being thus possessed with the Idea's of these new things you never tried before and working upon your affections and moving your
Because they are not to be found in the Word of God 2. They are many of them contrary to the Word of God 3. No Church in the World hath Power to make New Articles of Faith Quest. 4. What are the New Articles of Faith the Church of Rome hath added to the Antient Creeds Answ. They are these following I. That the Traditions of the Church are to be received with the same Faith and Veneration we owe to the Holy Scriptures II. That there are seven Sacraments Baptism Confirmation the Eucharist Pennance Extreme Unction Orders and Marriage and that these confer Grace III. That among the Ceremonies used in the Roman Church the Publick Service in Latin or an unknown Tongue is a commendable Service IV. That in the Mass there is offered to God a true Propitiatory Sacrifice for the Living and the Dead V. That in the Sacrament of the Eucharist the Bread and Wine are changed into the very Substance of Christ's Body and Blood VI. That Laymen need not receive the Sacrament of the Eucharist in both kinds and that it 's sufficient for them to communicate in one VII That there is a Purgatory or a Place after Death where good Mens Souls are tormented for smaller Sins and relieved by the Alms and Prayers of the Living VIII That the Saints departed this Life may and must be pray'd to and invoked and that their Reliques must be worshipp'd IX That the Images of Jesus Christ and of the Virgin Mary and of other Saints may and ought to be worshipp'd X. That Indulgences or Dispensations of the redundant Merits of Saints are very useful things XI That Auricular Confession or Confession of all our mortal Sins with the Circumstances of them to a Priest is necessary to Salvation XII That the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church and Mistress of all other Churches Quest. 5. Why must not Traditions be received with the same Faith that is due to the written Word of God Answ. 1. Because the written Word of God is perfect containing all things necessary to Salvation And that does not direct us to Traditions but rather warns us against them 2. Because the Traditions of the Church of Rome many of them are false and many uncertain 3. Their Traditions are not Traditions which have been receiv'd in all Ages by all Churches and in all Places for such only are the true Apostolical Traditions 4. That they are not absolutely necessary their own Practice shews in that they reject Authentick Traditions and particularly that of Communicating Infants And here you may note The Reason why they fly to Tradition is because they cannot prove their New Doctrines by the Word of God Quest. 6. Why do not you believe seven Sacraments Answ. 1. The Holy Ghost in Scripture hath no where declared such a number 2. This precise number of Seven Sacraments was not heard of in the Christian Church till twelve hundred years after Christ. 3. There are but Two Sacraments mention'd in the New Testament I mean such as are true and proper Sacraments viz. Baptism and the Supper of the Lord. 4. The Council of Trent was the first that made this Number an Article of Faith Quest 7. Why do not you allow of Publick Service in Latin or in a Tongue not understood by the People Answ. 1. Because St. Paul writes a whole Chapter against it 1 Cor. 14. 2. Because the Publick Service ought to be for the Edification of the People and Service in an unknown Tongue cannot edifie 3. The Practice of the Primitive Church is against it 4. Some of the wiser Men in the Church of Rome themselves find fault with this Publick Service in an unknown Tongue 5. This Practice in the Church of Rome is only to serve some Worldly Ends. Quest. 8. Why do not you admit of the Sacrifice of the Mass Answ. 1. Because the Church of Rome tells us that they do sacrifice Christ every day in the Mass which is directly contrary to the 9th Chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews Heb. 9. 25 26 27 28. 2. Because there can be no true and proper Sacrifice without Death and it founds dreadful to a Christian Ear that the Priest kills Christ every day or which is all one puts his God to Death 3. It destroys the end of a Sacrifice which is to testifie our Subjection to God but in this Sacrifice of the Mass the Offerer who is the Priest must be greater than the Offering 4. The Lord's Supper is only a Commemoration or Representation of Christ's Sacrifice and a Sacrifice of Thanksgiving but no proper or true Propitiatory Sacrifice Quest. 9. Why do not you believe a Transubstantiation in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper Answ. 1. It is against all Sense for we may see and feel and hear and taste and smell that the Bread and Wine after Consecration are Bread and Wine still 2. It is against Reason that Christ's Body and Blood should be in a thousand places at once 3. It is against Scripture for Christ protests that his flesh profits nothing Joh. 6. 63. 4. It is against the Nature of a Sacrament which is an outward visible Sign of something Spiritual and Transubstantiation destroys the Sign 5. Christ himself explains what he means by saying This is my Body when he adds Do this in remembrance of me which remembrance supposes the absence of his Natural Body 6. It is against that Article of our Faith which saith That Christ is to continue in Heaven till the Restitution of all things And there is no necessity we should take the words literally any more than the words in Jo. 10. 7. I am the door c. 7. This is my Body is a Phrase or Form of Speech exactly like that of the Lamb in the Passover This Lamb is the Passeover i. e. the Memorial of it 8. These words This is my Body do not naturally infer a substantial change by the Confession of some Papists themselves 9. They themselves cannot be sure of this Change because they say it depends upon the Intention of the Priest 10. The Absurdities that flow from the Doctrine of Transubstantiation are innumerable for then Christ must have eaten himself the Disciples must have eaten up their Master Christ's Body may be lockt up in a Box for half a year together and longer c. Whereas the Doctrine of the Church of England that the Bread represents Christ's Body and upon that account is his Body hath no Inconveniency in it 11. Transubstantiation is against the Doctrine of the Primitive Church which calls the Bread the Figure of Christ's Body Quest. 10. Why do not you think it lawful for Laymen to receive the Communion in one kind only Answ. 1. Because Christ saith expresly to the Disciples Drink ye all of this 2. The Practice of the universal Church of Christ for a thousand years together is against it 3. The Council of Constance in the year 1416. was the first that durst venture
4th For all the pretences of Infallibility in the Church of Rome they cannot decide the Controversies that are among their own Members 5th Both Popes and General Councils have contradicted one another and therefore neither of them can be infallible 6th The pretence of Infallibility in the Church of Rome is nothing but a device to uphold their Temporal Grandeur and Dominion Quest. 21. Why do you think the Church of Rome is in an Error in forbidding the reading of the Bible to the Common People Answ. 1. Because Christ commands all sorts of Men to read the Scriptures Joh. 5. 39. 2. The Berrhaeans are commended for searching the Scriptures Acts 17. 11. 3. The Fathers in the Primitive Church exhorted the People to the frequent reading of the Scriptures 4. St. Paul charges the Thessalonians to take care that his Epistle be read to all the holy Brethren 1 Thess. 5. 27. 5. In the Jewish Church every Family was to have the Law in their Houses and to teach it their Children diligently Deut. 6. 7. 6. The pretence of the Obscurity of the Scripture in many places is insignificant since the Scripture is plain enough in things necessary to Salvation 7. The Church of Rome in forbidding the Bible to the Laity discovers her fear and the weakness of her Cause least the People should see her Errors and forsake her Quest. 22. UUhy do not you believe that the Books call'd Apocrypha are Canonical Scripture Answ. 1. Because the Oracles of the Old Testament were delivered to the Jewish Church Rom. 3. 2. and these were not 2. The Christian Church receiv'd from the Jews no other Books of Canonical Scripture but what are own'd as such by the Church of England 3. The Apocrypha were not written by Men inspired by the Holy Ghost and what is Scripture must be by Inspiration 2 Tim. 3. 16. 4. Some of the Authors beg the Readers pardon for their Mistakes which is not the Language of the Holy Ghost 5. The Antient Councils have rejected these Apocrypha as not Canonical particularly the Council of Laodicea 6. In the Primitive Churches they read these Apocrypha only for the Instruction of Mens Manners but did not resolve their Faith into them no more do we Quest. 23. UUhy do you find fault with the Church of Rome for asserting that the Church of England once a Member of her Communion had no power to reform her self Answ. 1. Because every Church hath a natural right to shake off the Abuses and Corruptions which are contrary to the Word of God 2. It is God's Command to private Men not to suffer themselves to be deluded by the slight of Men and cunning Craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive and therefore much more is a National Church concern'd to do so 3. In vain was any Reformation hoped for from the Bishop and Clergy of the Roman Church 4. It 's the proper Office of the Bishops of a National Church to take notice what Errors creep into their Churches and oppose them 5. And that they have right to do so appears from the Examples the Church of Judah had in the times of Jehoshaphat or Hezekiah or Josiah 6. In throwing off the power of the Pope of Rome we did not throw off Obedience to a lawful Soveraign but Subjection to an Usurper 7. We did no more than what the Orthodox Churches did after the Arian Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia in setting up the Nicene Faith again which those powerful Councils had banish'd 8. We made no new Religion but restor'd the old and built no new House but only swept out of the old the Rubbish which made it unwholesom and uninhabitable The End An Account of the Conference betwixt a Jesuit of the Savoy and my Self the 2d of January Present Mr. Stephens on my side Mrs. Chamberlain and Mr. Chamberlain and the Book-binder about whom the Conference was held he having been six years of the Church of Rome but somewhat unsatisfied and Mr. Lamb. About Seven of the Clock at Night THE first thing Discoursed was about the Doctrine of Calvinists which the Jesuit said made God the Author of Sin I told him that there are several Expressions which if a favourable Construction be put upon them will appear to be otherwise Next he fell upon Luther who should say that no Man could be damned if he would but for his Infidelity I said it was true that God condemned no Man that professed himself a Christian but for his Infidelity The Jesuit asked whether if a Man committed Theft he may be call'd an Infidel I said he acted like an Infidel and in that Act was so because he acted contrary to his Belief Mr. Chamberlain putting in something about that place 1 Tim. 2. about one Mediator The Jesuit argued he wonderd we should talk of one Mediator when every Man that pray'd for the other was a Mediator I told him in a large Sense he might be called so but in the Controversie before us were meant Mediators which are religiously worshipped Here happened a great rambling Discourse about Faith As distinguished from all good Works but I told them that by Faith I did not mean the bare Assent to the Doctrine but a practical Belief as it takes in the whole Word of God and living according to it The Book-binder was gone to call Mrs. Chamberlain and coming again by this time The Jesuit said they were come to satisfie Persons under some Doubts and therefore must fall upon some more material Points and since we Protestants sent people to the Scripture it was necessary we should begin to talk of the Rule of Faith and therefore he desired to know how we knew the Scripture to be the Word of God and from whom we had received our Bible I told him we had received it from the Catholick Church whose Testimony was very considerable in this Case He ask'd hereupon when we went off from the Church From what Church we did immediately receive it I answered him both from the Western or Roman and from the Churches of the East However I told him I would fairly grant him that we had received it immediately from the Church of Rome and I desired him to make the best of it Here he asked how we could receive the true Bible from a corrupt Church I asked him whether I might not receive a Pearl from a Chimney Sweeper He said we looked upon them for Rogues and Rascals Whereupon I told him we give them no such Language However sinc he used these Names whether a Man might not receive a 100 l. in very good Money from Rogues and Rascals He then argued That we look'd upon the Church of Rome as a corrupt Church and how can we be sure that we have the true Bible since we cannot be sure that a corrupt Church had not corrupted it I told him that they confessed themselves they had not corrupted it and besides they could not corrupt it for the Cheat
would have been found out by the comparing of ancient and modern Copies He then asked again what we counted the Rule of Faith I told him the Scripture He asked whether with a true Interpretation or without it I told him the Scripture with true Interpretation He then replied how we should know the true Interpretation I told him things necessary to Salvation needed no great Interpretation and the words are deliver'd so plainly that any one that runs may Read it He then asked whether every Man was a true Interpreter of Scripture I said every Man had a Judgment of Discretion but there was no Question there were several Persons that might mis-interpret it but if a Man went this way to work read the Scripture pray for Illumination and go to it with a pure Intention he might understand things necessary and he could not err damnably and in things more difficult consult by his Guides He said this would establish every Man in his Religion and a Mahometan ought to be directed by his Guide and why must we follow the Guides of our Church and not the Guides of the Roman Church I told him that People bred and born and baptized in this Church had greater reason to consult their own Guides than others because they had greater Obligations to them Still he urged no Man could be ascertain'd of the true Interpretation of the Scripture without some Judge I desired him to name that Judge over and over but could not bring him to it I know not how the Discourse came in here about different Interpretations and I said the Writers of their Church differ'd in their Interpretation He said none of their Writers differ'd from one another in the Interpretation of places relating to Articles of Faith I asked him what he thought of Extreme Unction He said it was an Article of Faith Very well said I then I 'll prove that Cajetan interprets that place of St. James of another Unction and saith contrary to the Council of Trent that Extreme Unction cannot be proved from that place He said the Council of Trent did not denounce Anathema to him that should interpret that place of St. James of another Unction I then fetcht him down out of my Study the Council of Trent and shew'd him that Sess. 14. it did denounce Anathema to them that should not believe So then he said they laid not the strain upon that place but St. Peter and St. Paul had spoken of it too I challeng'd him to shew me any place in St. Paul or Peter that had spoken of this Unction He then turn'd it off and said he did not mean it of any express mention but only that the Apostles did not use to contradict themselves After this either the Jesuit or Mr. Stephens moved it that there might be another Meeting and that we should write down all I told him I agreed to it and accordingly we appointed Wednesday next the 4 th of January at Four a Clock in the Afternoon and so they departed the Jesuit and Mr. Lamb The Bookbinder and Mr. Chamberlain and his Mother and another young Woman And the Bookbinder and Mr. Stephens and my self and Chamb. and his Mother staid a while when I fell in discourse about Invocation of Saints and fetcht him down the Office of the Virgin Mary The Contempt of the Glories of the Virgin Mary and shew'd him that they did not only pray to Saints to pray for them but begg'd the same Blessings of them they did of God The Bookbinder said the Contemplations of the Glory of the Blessed Virgin was not allow'd of in their Church He said if they did more than pray to Saints to pray for them he did not righly understand his Church The End A DISSWASIVE FROM POPERY BEING A LETTER TO A LADY TO Preserve her from Apostacy from the Communion of the Church of ENGLAND LONDON Printed for W. Hinchman S. Keble and D. Brown 1697. A DISSWASIVE from Popery being a Letter to a Lady to preserve her from Apostacy from the Communion of the Church of England Madam AND are you indeed got into the only Catholick Church And are you sure the Men you have lately believed have not deceived you as you fancy we have done for tho' you may be so charitable as to think that we have not intentionally cozened you yet since you cannot suppose us to be both in the Right you must necessarily conclude that we have at least ignorantly abused and imposed upon you and did you ever rightly consider what a truly Catholick Church does mean Men of Sense and Reason always believed that a Church which holds the truly Catholick Faith is a true and sound Member of the Catholick Church and dares Malice it self say that we do not hold the Apostles the Nicene and Athanasius's Creed The Church of Rome her self confesses that these Creeds contain the truly Catholick Faith And most certainly when the Nicene Council was celebrated and in Athanasius's time that Church was counted a sound Member of the Catholick Church that held that Catholick Faith which is expressed in those Creeds and do we not hold that Faith Do we not stand up at it to express our Readiness to defend it And what have we done that we must not be counted a Catholick Church Is it because we will not receive things which the Church of Rome hath since added to the Catholick Faith Is it because we will not admit of the Doctrines which that Church was first induced to believe by the Darkness and Ignorance of the Ages it lived in and at last loath to part withal for fear they should be thought to have been so long in an Error Is it because we will not yield to things which we apprehend to be directly against the Word of God and destructive to that Catholick Faith the Christian World hath professed in all Ages Is it because we will not deceive the People of the Cup in the Blessed Sacrament which Christ intended as a mighty comfort to them Is it because we will not believe the Miracle of Transubstantiation against four of our Senses and Reason and Scripture to boot Is it because we will not suffer the Worship of God or that which is very like it to be given to Creatures because of the very appearance of the evil of Idolatry which we are commanded to shun as much as Idolatry it self Is it because we will not believe a Purgatory Fire which cleanseth little but Peoples Purses of their Money Is it because we will not indulge the Pride and Arrogance of a Man at Rome who having first wheedled the Christian Princes out of their Means and Power hath at last made that Power and Riches hereditary to his Successors under a pretence of a Legacy from Christ Is it because we will not believe contrary to the Apostles Rule that publick Prayers which are intended for the benefit and understanding of the Multitude must be said in a Tongue unknown to the
ingenuous Men of the Church of Rome confess that this praying to Saints or Angels was not heard of or used in the Christian Church for the first Three hundred years after Christ. And if the Christian Church for the first Three hundred years did not think it useful at all it is a strange Degeneration from their Principles to press it now as useful Certainly if God had thought this Invocation so useful as your Church pretends it is He would not have so peremptorily commanded Call upon me in the day of trouble I will deliver thee and thou shalt glorifie me Psal. 50. 15. and it 's probable the Apostles in prescribing so many useful things of far less concern would not have left us in the dark as to the mighty usefulness of this Invocation especially when they had occasion to mention the Spirits of men made perfect and did so often converse with Angels The Angel Revel 22. 8 9. thought it a very useless thing and would not admit of so much as a Religious prostration of the Evangelist before him because it look'd like Sacriledge and robbing God of his due But since your Church in this Adoration takes Pattern so much by the Courts of Princes give me leave to suggest to you how you think a Soveraign Prince would take it if a Subject should give any of his Servants the the Title of Majesty or any other Title which properly belongs to him There are few Titles that God hath and inspired Men have given to him but you give them to the Blessed Virgin and though when you are charg'd with it you fall to Distinctions and turn and wind your selves to get out yet that shews only a bad cause because it requires so much artifice and cunning to defend it But alas it must be Children that are perswaded and coaxed to believe that the Church of Rome only counts it useful not necessary when it is well known that the generality of that Communion pray to Saints more than to God which in the Scripture phrase is honouring the Creature more than the Creator and they never leave that Person that goes over to them till they have brought him to that Worship of Saints and Angels It s pretty to hear these Men talk that it is only recommended as useful when the Bishops and Preachers of that Church are injoyned and take their Oath upon 't to commend this Invocation to the People as profitable and the People are obliged to hearken to their Priests in all things so that though a Man at first may think this Invocation not necessary upon the account of its being only useful yet from that other Obligation he hath to obey the Priest in all spiritual things it becomes necessary But from this scruple we are delivered Madam by the Confession of Faith which the Roman Catechism doth prescribe for there it is that it is not only useful but that we ought to pray unto Saints and indeed should any Man live in that Communion and omit it he would soon be looked upon as prophane and but a half Convert to their Church they would soon let him know their Displeasure and either fright or flatter him into Conformity And is this the Worship Madam which Christ and his Apostles have injoyned the World Are not you afraid of doing things that do so nearly border upon robbing God of his honour and glory Idolatry is a frightful word and you do not love to hear it and therefore I will trouble you with it as little as I can But when God hath commanded you to come to him directly without mentioning the Intercession of Saints and Angels how dares your Church of her own head bring in a Worship so dangerous who should prescribe the way how God is to be worshipped but God himself And if God requires you to address your self to him without any other Mediator but Christ Jesus Have not you just reason to be afraid that God will reject your Prayers which are addressed to Saints as Mediators contrary to his order and injunction What Kings suffer here on Earth in letting their Subjects address themselves by their Servants to them can be no example here for God as he intends not to regulate his Court by the Court of Princes so we know it is against his Order to go to his Servants when we are commanded to come directly to him and it is such a voluntary humility as deprives us of our Reward as the Apostles expresly tells us Coloss. 2. 18. God knew well enough if men addressed themselves to his Servants to have access to him something of the Worship due to him would stick by the way and rest upon his Servants to his Dishonour and Disparagement and therefore he mentioned nothing of this mediate Address It s true we desire our Neighbours here on Earth to pray for us but for that we have a Command for the Invocation of Saints departed we have none and in vain do they worship me saith God teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men Mat. 15. 9. But besides when you desire your living Neighbours to pray for you I hope you do not fall down upon your knees to them nor use the same Zeal and Devotion to them as you do to God and for whole hours together as you do to Saints departed But why will you blind your self in a thing which your own Practice contradicts you in you know you do not only pray to Saints departed to pray for you but you do many times without making any mention of their Prayers for you beg of them with the same reverence and prostrations you use to God to deliver you from all evil and consequently you beg the same Blessings of them you beg of God And it is but a weak excuse to say that you intend by those Prayers nothing else but that by their Intercession they may get those Blessings for you for you go contrary to the nature of things and whereas words ordinarily are Interpreters of the mind you make your minds Interpreters of your Words and Actions which is a strange evasion and if such a thing be intended why do you lay a snare before the Common sort of People who being ordered to pray to Saints for such and such Blessings know nothing to the contrary but that they are able to dispence those Blessings to them and thus commit Idolatry by your willful connivance whose Blood will certainly be required at your Church-mens hands one day Examine but your Prayers to the Virgin Mary in your own Manuels when you have prayed to her and begged of her all that you can pray of God for you add a word or two of her Intercession which in good truth is nothing but a blind that you may not be said to commit down right Idolatry You know those Prayers to the Virgin Mary which in the Latine and I think in the English Manual too are ordered to be said to the Virgin Morning and Evening The
Merits because I find your Priests have two strings to their bow and tell the People one thing and their Adversaries when they dispute with them another affirm and deny it as they see occasion and necessity requires Only one thing I must needs take notice of before I take my leave and that is the Gigantick Argument that some of your Gentlemen boast of and which strikes all Protestants dead at the first hearing of it If there be any thing true this must be true that there is a God if there be a God there must be a true Religion if there be a true Religion there must be a true revealed Religion if there be a true revealed Religion the Christian Religion must be that true revealed Religion and if the Christian Religion be true then the Religion of the Church of Rome must be true for the Argument that proves the Christian Religion to be true proves the Religion of the Church of Rome to be true which is this Either the Christian Religion was propagated without Miracles or by Miracles if by Miracles then it must be Divine if without Miracles then it is the greatest Miracle that a Religion so contrary to Flesh and Blood should prevail with sensual Men. The same say they is true of the Religion of the Church of Rome For if it be propagated by Miracles it must be Divine if without Miracles it must be so much more because it prescribes things contrary to Flesh and Blood as Penances Austerities c. and thousands of People do embrace it It will not make my self merry here in a thing so serious else I could have told you that I have heard of an Argument when I was at School somewhat like this He that drinks well sleeps well he that sleeps well commits no Sin he that commits no Sin will be saved therefore he that drinks well will be saved But I forbear And as to the aforesaid Argument whereby one of your Priests that hath printed it thinks to end all Controversies I will say no more but this First that as there is no Christian but must readily confess that the Miracles Christ and his Apostles wrought were a Confirmation of the Divinity of their Doctrine so there is no Man of any brains can admit of the other part of the dilemma as universally true that a Religion that goes against Flesh and Blood if propagated without Miracles must therefore be necessarily Divine Secondly that so far as the Religion of the Church of Rome agrees with the truly Christian Religion so far it is undoubtedly true and it will naturally follow that if the Christian Religion be true the Religion of the Church of Rome so far as it agrees with the Christian Religion must needs be true And the same may be said of the Protestant Religion but that the Roman Religion must therefore be true where it goes away and differs from the truly Christian Religion revealed to us in the Gospel is a consequence which none but Children can approve of Thirdly with this Argument a Man might prove the Divinity of almost any Religion in the World He that is no stranger to History must needs know what Severities what Austerities of Life the Brachmans or the Heathen Friers in the Indies do both prescribe and practice and what Proselites they make and how full the Kingdom of the great Mogul is of them how some wallow in Ashes day and night how others go charged with heavy Iron Chaines all their days how others stand upright upon their Leggs for whole Weeks together c. How in Japan and other places of the Indies the Priests perswade the People to fast themselves to death to go long Pilgrimages to give all they have to the Priests to throw themselves down from steep Rocks and break their Necks and all to arrive the sooner to the Happiness of another World c. I think there cannot be things more contrary to Flesh and Blood than these and yet we see these Doctrines are propagated daily without any force of Arms only by Example and Perswasion to be sure without any Miracle but I hope that doth not prove their Religion to be Divine It 's a dictate of the light of Nature that the way to Heaven is straight and therefore People that are religiously inclined are easily won over to those Men whom they see exercise such Severities upon themselves To conclude Madam when all is done what the true Church is must be tried by the Writings of the Evangelists and Apostles We see that even in the Apostles days Corruptions crept into the Church witness the Churches of Corinth Galatia and Colosse c. and the Simplicity of the Gospel began even then to be perverted and mingled with idle and foolish Opinions and Practices and therefore we must needs think that after the Apostles decease the Church of Christ was subject to the same fare so that if there be any Standard or Touchstone left whereby the Truth and Sincerity of a Church can be tried and we must needs think so well of God's Providence that he would not leave his Church without some Rule to rectifie their Errors by in case she should be infected with any it must be the Primitive Institution of the Christian Religion and that Church as I said before which teaches things that approach nearest to that Primitive Institution must be the true Church And Madam do but once more for your Souls fake and for your Salvations sake compare the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome with the Doctrines and Practices of the Gospel the Fountain of Christianity and try whether you can find there the Doctrines of Communion under one kind of publick Prayers in a Tongue unknown to the People of Purgatory of the Mass of Transubstantiation of the Church of Rome 's Supremacy and Infallibility of Worshipping and Adoring the Virgin Mary and Praying to Saints of Veneration of Relicks and Images of Adoration of the Hoste c. Do not force any places of Scripture and try whether you can make sense of any of these Doctrines by Scripture View the stream of the Gospel and search whether there be any thing like these Doctrines in it Why will you make your Reason a Slave to your Priests magisterial Sentences How can you answer it to God that you did not improve your Reason more What have you your Reason for but to judge what is agreeable to the Word of God and what is not Is not this acting like a Creature void of Reason to be guided altogether by what a few blind Guides say to you without enquiring at the Law and Testimony whether things are so as they say or no Wonderful Stupidity I stand amazed at it It is not all the seeming Holiness of those Priests you converse withal that make the Church you are in a true Church There is no Sect in the World but when they are under a Cloud Necessity and the Discouragement they are
under and their desire to make Proselites makes them outwardly Religious There may be and no doubt are zealous and outwardly pious Men in all Religions in the World but that doth not make every Religion true and divine An outward shew of Piety is the only way of propagating any Religion The Devil himself could not propagate Heathenism and Idolatry but by the pretended Zeal and Piety and Abstinence and Mortification of Apollonius Tyaneus who yet by the confession of the whole Christian World was no better than a Wizard and Conjurer I make no application to any particular Priest in the Church of Rome I do not deny but Men may be in great Errors and be very zealous for their Errors and seemingly very pious in their Zeal and when their Errors are not very willful and destroy not the true Worship of God for ought I know they may find Mercy in the day of our Lord. I grant there is a great shew of outward Piety in the Church of Rome very dazling and very moving but the great danger lies here that the Worship they give to God with one hand they strike and pull down with the other I know too well the practice of their Churches and a Heathen that should come into their Temples beyond Sea would verily believe that they worship a Multiplicity of Gods as well as he whatever their Pretensions may be to the contrary It is not what People say so much as what they do that God takes notice of and though you should Ten thousand times protest that you worship and adore God alone yet while God sees you adore the Virgin Mary with as great Zeal and Reverence as you do him pray to her oftner than you do to him make as many bows to her and other Saints as you do to him and other things of that nature how can he believe you Religion is a thing that will not bear Jests and Hypocrisie God will not be put off with Contradictions between Speeches and Practices Madam I do from my Heart pitty you and as it might be the weakness of your Judgment that might lead you into this Erroneous Church so I beseech you for Christ's sake to return to the Church you have rashly left where you cannot run a hazard if you will but follow the plain Doctrines of the Gospel besides which we preach nothing and enjoin nothing as necessary to Salvation Should these Intreaties and Beseechings be alledged against you in the last day as things which you have contrary to Reason refused and slighted how dreadful would your Condition be I have discharged my Duty and given you warning I would not have your Guilt lie at my Door and therefore have let you know my real Thoughts and Sentiments concerning your Condition and the Church you are in The Great God of Heaven open your Eyes that you may see and fear Time was when you would have believed us as much as you do now the Priests of the Church of Rome It 's strange that now they should speak nothing but Truths and we nothing but Falshood Do you think we do not understand the Scriptures and Fathers and Antiquity as well as they And can we all be so besotted with Interest and Pason that none of us should yield to the dictates of their Church if we could prevail with our Sense and Reason to believe that the things wherein they differ from us were agreeable to the Gospel Sure we have a great many Men among us that are great Lovers of Peace and would be glad that the whole Christian World were agreed and would these Men stand out against that Union if it could be done with a safe Conscience Certainly we have Men as learned among us as ever the Sun did shine upon nay the Church of Rome hath at this day few Men to equal ours for Learning and Knowledge And would all our Learned Men be so stubborn and obstinate as not to agree with the Church of Rome if they did not see plainly that there is Death in that Pot and that the Errors in that Church cannot be subscribed to without hazarding the Welfare of their Souls I will but use your own Argument when you went over to the Church of Rome and were perswaded by the Earnestness of her Priests to yield to their Reasonings what pleasure can we take in promoting your Damnation What can be our Interest in deceiving you You used that Argument on their side why will you not use it on our side Judge you whither we that have the Gospel on our side for what we teach are not in a safer way than that Church which for all the new Doctrines they have added to the Old Creeds are forced to run to the broken Cisterns of Tradition and I know not what Fathers whose Writings they know not whether they be genuine or no As you are now you live in wilful opposition to the Doctrine and Precepts of the Gospel and O remember what St. Paul doth say 2 Thess. 1. 7 8. That the Lord Jesus wiere long come down from Heaven with aâ—â— his Holy Angels to take Vengeance on thosâ— who have disobeyed the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Once more therefore charge you before Almighty God and our Lord Jesus Christ to repent of your Errors and to return to the bosom of that Church in which you received your Life and Being and the Principles of Religion and Christianity But if all this seem to you no more but Bugbears I have delivered my own Soul and should be forry that this Discourse should stand as a Witness against you in the Last day which God knows was only intended as a Motive to draw you back to that Fold from which you have wandred and gone astray I am Madam Your Faithful Friend to serve you A. H. Feb. 17. 1677. POSTSCRIPT Madam AS in the publishing of this Letter I had no other design but to prevent the fall of others into the like dangers so I have particularly insisted on those motives which have of late tempted some persons to go over to the Roman Church and though I have represented these motives as yours yet in this I have been so far from doing any thing against the Laws of private Discourse or Friendship or Acquaintance that I have only touch'd upon the common stumbling-blocks which make unwary people joyn themselves to that Church Blocks which might easily be removed if Men or Women would but give themselves leave to think and would prefer the solid Dictates of their reason before the Suggestions of their soft and sickly Passions One thing I had almost forgot and which indeed is the great Bug-bear whereby your Church-men fright their people from running over to us and that is that our Church began but about an hundred and fifty years ago that Luther and Zwinglius were the Authors of it and that we had no Church before pittiful shifts indeed to keep people from seeing the Sun at Noon
this outward Pomp they make not the least sign of the truth of their Church not remembring that if this be a good sign the idolatrous People in Japan and China whose Temples are infinitely more shining and glorious will have a better Title to the true Church than they I must confess that in Policy and Worldly Craft and Cunning the Church of Rome exceeds ours for they have not only turn'd the Spiritual Worship of the Gospel into a Sensual Service into outward Religious Formalities a thing strangely pleasing to flesh and blood but they have Shooes that will fit all sorts of Feet great and small and have Remedies for all Distempers and you may go to Heaven in that Church either through the straight way or through the broad which you please they can fit the Melancholy Person and the Jovial they have Monasteries and Nunneries and Severities to content the one and know how to allow greater liberty to the other they can either send a Man to Happiness through a tedious task of Mortification if he likes that method best or help him thither by a quicker dispatch by Confession Attrition and Absolution upon a Death-bed when the Man can hold Sin and the World no longer Live or die you cannot do amiss in that Church for living you may be forgiven and after Death you may be pray'd out of Purgatory sooner or later according as you will spend Money upon Masses for Gold doth strangely quicken these Supplications Such a Church Madam you have espoufed and divorced your self from one that prefers the Wisdom of God and of the Gospel before the Wisdom of the Flesh and glories in dealing plainly and honestly with all Men that keeps close to the Scriptures and yet is not against those pious Customes of Antiquity which are not contradictory to the Scriptures that generously maintains the Prerogative of God and gives no other Honour to Saints and Angels but what may consist with the Glory of her Creator that hath made no new Articles of Faith but keeps to the old and thinks it Rebellion against God to enjoin things as necessary to Salvation which God never made so that urges the strictest Life and encourages nothing but what may promote true Piety and Devotion that hath no more Ceremonies but what are decent and labours to free Religion at once from Slovenliness and Superstition that secures the Right of Soveraign Princes and teaches her Children to live like good Subjects and good Christians and though it be her misfortune that too many of her pretended Members live like Enemies of Christianity yet that 's not long of her Doctrines and Constitutions but long of the Stubbornness of Men who will not be reform'd by her Precepts As no Man blames Christ or his Apostles because Judas was a Hypocrite or because Simon Magus profess'd their Religion so they betray great Ignorance and Simplicity that for the monstrous Impieties of many that profess themselves Members of our Assemblies despise and slight our Church which in her Principles is most averse from all such practices a Church which as for mine own particular I have deliberately and premeditately embraced and chosen so I hope I shall never be so much for saken of God or of my Reason as to quit it to become a Papist I have not been altogether a careless Observer of the several Christian Churches dispers'd through the World Desire of mine own Salvation hath made me take particular notice what Corruption there is in them and what Affinity they have with the Primitive Professors of Christianity And I must freely confess upon a serious Examination of the Scripture and the Fathers of the three first Centuries after Christ that from my Heart I think there is no Church this day in all the Christian World be it Eastern or Western that in her Principles and Constitutions bears so much of the Image of the truly Primitive Church or comes so near it as the Church of England a Church which as your Fore-fathers had courage to burn for so I verily believe that he understands not her Innocent Designs and excellent Rules that dares not die a Martyr in her cause Once more your Faithful Friend to serve you A. Horneck FINIS i. e. Contradictions In the New Confession of Faith compiled and published by Pope Pius IV. a little above a hundred years ago Under one kind only