other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say
they haue not of themselues but receiue from the interpretation of the churche and traditions which is an impious and blasphemous assertion For the interpretation of a Sinode is but a glosse the scripture is the text the interpretation may err the text cannott erre the interpretation is the worde of man the scriptures the voyce of God to conclude this point whereas the position of the former Roman church was that diuinitie reasoneth from the scriptures necessarilie from other authors and learninge probablie the wheele nowe is turned and men reason from the scriptures coniecturallie but from the interpretation of the churche and tradition firmelie and sullie CHAMP Howe often haue you been tould of your wittinge belying your aduersaries you knowe well if you knowe anie thinge that the catholikes whom you call papists doe teach the scriptures to be the worde of the holy Ghost and to haue theire veritie from him independentlie of the churche And therefore that the churche addeth no strength or veritie to them no more then the witnes or notarie addeth truth or veritie to the will testament of the testatour Neuertheles the authoritie testimonie of the churche is as necessarie for the acceptance and acknowledgment as well of the letter and texte it selfe as of the sence and meaninge of the scriptures as the witnes or notaries hande is to the acknowledgment and proofe of the will and testament or as the sentence of the iudge is necessarie for the true sence and meaninge of the will if at anie tyme it come to be in doubte or in question Neither is the interpretation of the churche vppon the scripture the interpretation or worde of man as you hereticallie tearme it but of the holy Ghost as besides other places you may learne of that Visum est Spitui Sancto nobis But it auaileth like as to teache a wilfull mynde wisdome Your conclusion is yett more childishe ignorant and impertinent For from the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the churche which is infalliblie true we say the argument is necessarie and infallible whereas from all humane authours taken seuerallie be they neuer so learned the argument is not certayne but probable But wheÌ„ we speake of humane authors we vnderstande not the churche nor yett her receiued traditions And thus you see your strongest arguments against the position of the manuall are nothinge but froathie calumnies paralogismes and impertinencies dispersed and blowne away with euerie small blast of winde Manuall Catholike position 2. All such articles as are of faith and so holden by the protestants themselues are not contayned so much as indirectlie or implicitlie in the holy scriptures but onlie so farr as the scriptures contayne and testifie the authority of the churche traditions Proofe Take all the bookes of the bible and euerie parte thereof which are acknowledged for canonicall scripture ioyntlie of catholikes and protestants be such indeede That the moste blessed mother of our Sauiour Christe continued perpetuallie a virgin That it is lawfull for christians to eat strangled thinges and blood which were expressely forbidden them Acts 15. 20. are not so much as indirectly contained in holy scriptures otherwise then is mentioned in our position But this being more amply proued in that which followeth of traditions this which we haue sayd alreadie shal suffice for the present PILK The sunne needeth to borrowe no light of other starres nor the scriptures of the churche or of tradition For without helpe of either they sufficientlie prooue all articles of faith CHAMP It is an vsuall tricke of all deceiptfull and verball disputers to inuert change the question in hande that when they can say nothinge to the true questioÌ„ they may finde somethinge to say to the question framed by themselues The controuersie here is not whether the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue all other articles of faith for that was disputed in the precedent position and the negatiue parte there prooued against you but whether they sufficientlie prooue themselues to be the holy scriptures or noe which was the first proofe of this position lett vs heare howe you answere it PILK But here you trifle in idle Homonomie of articles of faith For strictlie those thinges are called articles of faith which are prescribed in the old and newe testament to be beleeued and are summarilie comprised in the Apostles creed whereby they are both distinguished from the precepts of the lawe that prescribe good workes and from the principles of diuintie from which as from conclusions they are deriued CHAMP I knowe not what you call trifelinge in homonomie but I knowe that you bable in obscuritie It is be like no article of faith with you that God is to be adored his name not to be prophaned or blasphemed that our parents are to be honoured with the rest of gods commaundements because they be precepts commaundinge good workes I maruell where you learned this good diuinitie But lett this passe yett it serueth not your turne For the scriptures whereof the question is nowe are not precepts as you knowe You haue therefore another as good a shifte That is that articles of faith are distinguished not onlie from precepts but also â—roâ— princeples of diuinitie from which as conclusions they are deriued these are your owne wordes but what you meane by them I cannot conceiue They seeme to sounde that the articles of faith as conclusions are deriued from the principles of diuinitie Then which you coulde haue sayd nothinge more contrarie to truthe For all men knowe that the conclusions of diuinitie are deriued from the articles of our faith as from theire principles not the contrarie as you dreame It had been good you had taken one yeere more to haue reuewed your writinges that you might haue made better sence of your ayinges PILK Of which sorte of principles these are That the holy scriptures are diuine inspired from heauen immutabely true CHAMP By what other reason I pray you are these thinges here named by you rather to be called principles of diuinitie then articles of faith more then for your owne bare and ignorant assertion you should haue geuen some reason for your distinction that your reader might haue seene it had not been meerely forged onlie to delude the argument Againe why are these thinges to be tearmed principles and not articles of faith God is one God is omnipotent God is truth it selfe and the first truth that reuealeth misteries of faith you dare not denie these to be principles of the other principles and yett are they most properlie articles of faith as you dare not denie expressed in the creede it selfe You see therefore your distinctions of articles and principles of faith to be vaine foolishe and friuolous inuented onlie to delude your lesse carefull reader PILK Improperlie articles of faith are called whatsoeuer is written as the principles themselues preceptes of the lawe sermons of the prophets histories of both testaments because faith assenteth to euerie
vnderstandinge according to scriptures CHAMP I wish with all my hearte thoughe you geue little occasion to hope it that you woulde immitate S. Aug aswell in this particular as in all other thinges then woulde you with all humilitie and reuerence receiue and acknowledge the authoritie of the churche in the interpretation of the scriptures and not diabolicallie bragge of the brauenes of your spirits that dare contemne the same Hearken I pray you vnto S. Aug wordes to Cresconius in the same chapter cited by you which seeinge you take noe notice of it is an euident argument you haue noe greate desire to learne anie thinge of him but to see if you canne picke anie thinge out of him for your purpose which is to impugne him and the rest of the fathers His wordes are these which may as properlie be vsed to you as he vsed them to Cresconius Put your selfe saith he in the churche which it is manifest S. Cyprian defended and then may you alleage S. Cyprians authoritie for your doctrine The same I say to you concerninge S. Aug example thoughe you came neerer the imitatinge thereof theÌ„ you doe You say you followe the direction of the priests and leuits in expoundinge scriptures I finde nothing att all in the place quoted by you warrantinge your vsage of scriptures But were it as you thinke you must first prooue your selues to be priests or leuits before you can take vppon you the charge of priests and leuits in expoundinge the scriptures How would you answere that olde question put vnto such as you are well nighe 1400. yeares a goe Vnde vemtts quid in meo â—acitis non mei or if you will take vppon you as priests and leuits to expounde the scriptures beinge noe such men those that desire not to be deceaued will reiect your expositions as false and pernitious PILK And thus the fathers teache vs as whatsoeuer golde is without the temple is not sanctified so whatsoeuer sence is without the scriptures althoughe to some it seeme wounderfull yet is not holy because it is not contained in the scriptures The scripture expoundeth her selfe and suffereth not the hearers to erre saith Chrisostome He is the best reader sayth Hyllarie that expecteth rather the vnderstandinge of the wordes from the wordes themselues then imposeth it vppon them CHAMP The sence of the churche is neuer without the scriptures as the sence of all heretikes is which impugne the churche and if the scriptures permitt not the hearer to err as you say in vaine are your expositions euerie hearer beinge aswell able to vnderstande them as you ministers You said not longe since that there are manie obscurities in the scriptures and are they nowe so cleare that they permitte not the hearer to err Doe you not see what absurdities you runne into whilst you wrangle against the euident truth And who I pray you is more like to take the sence of the scriptures from the wordes themselues and not to impose it vppon them as you say out of S. Hillarie then the catholicke churche assisted to that end by the holy ghost PILK To conclude this pointe sith the fathers often roue att the sence of the scriptures vnderstandinge that literallie which is meant spiritually and contrariwise as your owne Bellarmine may informe you you shoulde haue donne well to haue followed the direction of your owne Canon lawe you must not froÌ„ without scriptures seeke a forrayne and straunge sence that so you may confirme it with authoritie of the text as you can but of the scriptures themselues you must receiue the meaninge of the truth CHAMP If the fathers roue at the sence of the scriptures which saucie and vnseemlie terme you falslie father vppon Bellarmine what shall I thinke you will doe Hitt the marke directlie what sencelesnes would that be to thinke that men impugninge violentlie the church which the scriptures testifie to be pillar of truth should be true interpreters of scriptures Knowe you therefore that whilst followe the fathers interpretations of the scriptures which they either receiue from the churche or is approoued and not approoued and not gainsayde by the churche I seekâ— not the sence of the scriptures from without them but in them by them and most conformablie to them and so I followe punctuallie the direction of the Canon Lawe as you aduise me maruellinge not a little that you should geue so good counsell to another and followe it so little your selfe And nowe Iudicious reader woulde I intreate thee to turne ouer a fewe leaues backwarde and take reuiewe of the short section of the manuall sett downe as it is in Mr. Pilkinton and then passe hardlie thy censure of vs both as thou shalt finde cause and ground And particular note I woulde haue thee to take howe pertinentlie and directlie he impugneth that which hâ— affirms 〈…〉 and effectuallie prooueth that which I woulde haue thee obserue thoroughe ouâ— whole dispute MANVALL SECTIO 4. Thirdlie that I expect and exact of him or them that shall goe aboute to answere this teatise the same round sincere and direct dealinge which I haue here vsed Remembringe before all thinges that he sett downe his faith in direct positions and proceed in like methode as I haue donne for the rest To whom I willinglie graunt this large libertie aboue that which I haue vsed that he tye not himselfe vnto the first 500. yeres after Christ for the fathers interpretations but that he take bouldlie 1500. yeres so that he bringe not condemned heretikes for his authors and with all obserue the pointe followinge PILK You may bouldlie sound the Triumphe before the victorie if you may prescribe your aduersaries howe and what they shall answere you which if any of vs shoulde offer to your side we should presentlie be vpbrayded with fortissimi milites that on noe other condition dare encounter with our enemies except we forbidde them what weapons they would vse and take to our selues what we list Neuerthelesse rather then you shoulde complaine that you are wronged if your desire be not accomplished who carrie in your head Ticonius conceipt quod volumus sanctum est therefore I am content to followe your disorderlie order and for the rest of this paragraph doe as Antonie the oratour did who when he came to a troublesome pointe lapped it vp in silence so on the contrarie for the easines of this to passe by itt and proceede to that which is of greater moment CHAMP It is not onlie lawfull but verie laudable and welbeseeminge for anie man to demande equall conditions of his aduersarie which notwithstandinge I haue spared to doe yeldinge vnto you the libertie of 1500. for onlie 500. yeeres which is in anie indifferent mens iudgment ouer great aduantage For the rest of this section I will imitate your example lettinge it passe in silence For I will not be ashamed to followe you where you goe right MANVALL SECTION 5. Fowerthlie that it
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
where then I liued to Douay So that vntill the fourteenth of May I could not begin to thinke seriously of any reply to him thoughe I had in the meane while runne ouer some parte of his booke and alsoe noted somethinge therein to that purpose Where Mr. Pilkinton may peraduenture say as he saith of the Manuall that it well appeareth to haue â—eeâ— doâ—â—e in haste and yett not in such shorte tyme but another might well haue made diuers such replies in the same space as Apelles answered to one who sheweinge him a picture and sayinge he had made it in one day But be ytt that Mr. Pilkintons witt and dexteritie coulde haue performed much more in the same tyme yett I confesse that mine coulde doe noe better the other imployments wherein the greatest parte of my tyme is taken vpp lyinge vppon me Neither doth Mr. Pilkinton neede much to bragge of his dexteritie and expedition in this kinde seeinge he hath bestowed fower whole yeeres or verie neere in answereinge only seauen sheetes of paper and that also so shallowly and seelily that there is much lesse difficultie to refute his aunswere then to Coppie out or transcribe his wordes I haue replyed to all he saith as it lyeth in his booke so farr as I goe with him relatinge his owne wordes least he shoulde complayne of ill dealinge as if somethinge of moment were lefte vntouched And both he and the reader may likewise vnderstande that I might with as much facilitie haue refuted the rest of his booke had it been either necessarie or proffitable to haue bestowed the labour in transcribinge it and cost in printinge it I would wishe thee good reader to take speciall notice of the preface which may serue thee as a key not only to this small treatise but also to other workes of greater moment and generally to all controuersies In the answereinge whereof as Mr. Pilkinton hath been more laborious so hath he also shewed himselfe more impertinent and peruerse Reade the whole with attention if thy leisure will permitte thee and compare diligentlie his proofes and myne together after doe not spare to giue thy Censure thereon as thou shalt thinke good in gods name And if thou receiuest anie proffit by my small labour I shall thinke it well bestowed and as fullie recompensed as I expect or desire in this worlde God euer keepe thee and me also This first of Iuly 1619. APPROBATIO Ego infrascriptus S. Th. Doctor Collegij Anglorum Duaceni Praeses legi libellum inscriptum Mr. Pilkinton his Pararelle Disparelled Autore Magistro Antonio Champneyo S. Th. Doctore Sorbonico nihilque in eo reperi aduersum fidem Catholicam vel bonos mores sed eandem fidem Catholicam in nonnullis propugnatam aduersarij ineptias fraudes detectas Quocirca iudico eundem vtiliter praelo committi posse Datum Duaci die decima Decembris Anno salutis 1619. Matthaeus Kellisonus Mr. PILKINTONS PARALLEL DISPARALLELD Mr PilkintoÌ„ after his owne Epistle Dedicatorie to his Gratious Patron of Canterburie and his shapeles aunswere to my shorte Epistle to the reader for soe exact he would seeme to be that he letteth nothinge passe without an answere he beginneth his encounter as followeth PILKINTON A briefe Synopsis of popishe positions auouched by the Manualist directlie contradicted by the Fathers CHAMPNEY I may err and fayle as all other men may but obstinate in errour by gods grace I shall neuer be Neither will I euer be but a scholer and childe of the orthodox Fathers If therefore by ouersight ignorance or errour which are defects incident to all men I haue vttered anie thinge contrarie to theire doctrine I doe here willinglie and wittinglie recall and retract it But lett vs heare the directe contradictions you speake of PILK All articles of faith are not contayned so much as indirectlie and implicitlie in the holy Scriptures CHAMP You were verie ill aduised to vse such euident corrupt dealinge in the verie first line of your booke This position sett downe by you is no more myne then your Parallel is my Manuall But you prooue your selfe a fitt scholler of your old Maisters My position is this All such articles as are of faith are not contayned so much as indirectlie or impliciâ—lie in holie scriptures but onlie so far as the scriptures contayne and testifie the aucthoritie of the Churche and Tradition To this position lett vs nowe see your Antithesis of the Fathers PILK In those thinges that are plainlie set downe in the holy scripture all poinctes are founde that concerne either beliefe or life CHAMP If your wittes had been at home when you wrote this you would easilie haue seen this doctrine of S. August to haue hadd no opposition with my position For my proposition were it sett downe in these wordes All articles of faith are contayned in scriptures so far as they testifie the Authoritie of the Churche and Traditions Which you will not as I suppose deny to be the verie same in sence with the position sett downe in the Maâ—uall I would learne of you wherein you putt the antithesis betwixt this position and that of S. August But lett S. August himselfe be iudge of this matter Althoughe saith he no example of this thinge speaking of the validitie of Baptisme ministred by heretickes be brought out of holie scriptures yett doe we followe the truth of the same scriptures in this point whilst we doe that which pleaseth the whole Churche which the authoritie of the scripture doth commend Wherby you see S. August to teache some articles of faith not otherwise to be contayned in holy scriptures but so far onlie as they commend vnto vs the authoritie of the Churche which is that my position saith and therefore your antithesis is in your owne brayne that seemeth to be at oddes with all true doctrine And marueyle truly it is to me with what countenance you produce S. Aug. doctrine as thoughe you attributed to him some authoritie seinge in the verie chapter immediatelie goinge before the place alleadged by you amongst the other canonicall bookes of holy scriptures he numbreth the bookes of Ecclesiasticus Sapientia Tobie â—udith and the Machabees all reiected by you and beginninge the chapter where you would take your antithesis saith thus In his omnibus libris timentes Deum pietate mansueti quaerunt voluntatem Dei In all these bookes those that feare God and are indued with true pietie seeke the will of God If nowe you make anie esteeme of S. August iudgment what case are you in that reiect these bookes of holy scripture as apocriphall whence he saith all pious and those that feare God do seeke his will but this onlie by the way PILK The holy Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth moe things to be beleeued and obserued by this churche then either they founde written or wrote themselues We knowe not the disposition of our saluation from anie other then from
them by whom the Ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP If you had taken but ordinarie heede what you wrote you woulde not haue sayde that my position hath anie opposition with S. Ireneus who sayth not that the Apostles wrote all they preached as he should haue don to make your antithesis good but onlie that they wrote the same gospell which they preached and not a different or contrarie doctrine to their preachinge as some prophane heretickes of whom he maketh there mentioÌ„ impudentlie taught which sence of this Father your selfe acknowledge pag. 5. But if you will needes make this consequence they wrote that which they preached ergo they wrote all that they preached as you must argue if you will make anie antithesis betwixt my position and S. Ireneus his doctrine I will say that either you haue forgotten your logicke or that you neuer had anie For to make or inferre an vniuersall proposition of an indefinite in nâ—n necessarijs is most absurde as you shall see by these examples Homo est albus vel caluus ergo omnis homo est a â—us vel caluus or the kinge writeth that he speaketh and thinketh therefore he writeth all he speaketh or thinketh Moreouer of S. Ireneus his iudgment concerninge traditions you might haue informed your selfe by the chapter immediatelie followinge that which you cite where he hath these wordes When we appeall to that tradition which descendinge from the Apostles is by the succession of priestes in the Churche preserued they to wit heretikes reiect Traditions PILK The scriptures are darke and difficult to be vnderstoode and all articles of faith are not clearelie layde downe in them All thinges are cleare in the holy scriptures to them that come to them with a godlie minde CHAMP The position of the Manuall which you ayme at as this All places of holy scripture containinge articles of faith the obstinate misbeleefe whereof is damnable are not easie to be vnderstoode but require some rule to be interpreted by Nowe if you will maintaine this position to be opposite to S. Epiphanius you must graunte that your doctrine is opposite to him which I euidentlie shewe in this manner In the roll of positions which you say are forgéd by me against you and are sett downe by you in the next page of your booke This in the second All places of holie scripture conteininge articles of faith are easie to be vnderstoode which proposition if you will reiect as none of yours as you doe in the place mentioned then must necessarilie the contradictorie proposition which is the same with mine here carped at by you and wich you say is opposite to S. Epiphanius be yours and then doe you contradict S. Epiphanius if you will say that I doe Or if you will confesse the truth and acknowledge this latter proposition to be yours as doubtles it is why doe you then charge me with forgeinge it against you Accorde your owne sayinges and then shall I knowe what to answere vnto In the meane while you are vnfortunate to stumble so grosselie if contradictinge your selfe in so shorte a space may be termed onlie stumblinge in the verie entrance of your dispute My position shall be shewed agreeable both with holy Scriptures and auncient Fathers in due place And as for your authoritie alleaged out of S. Epiphanius if it be in him as I knowe noâ— whether it be or noe for it is cited by you so at large that I cannot finde it it may haue this true sence and meaninge That all thinges are cleare in scriptures to such as come to them with this minde to vnderstande them as the catholicke Churche and the true pastors thereof interpret them Which sayinge hath noe contrarietie at all with my position For I doe not say that the scriptures are harde to be vnderstoode by the churche or that they neede another rule to be interpreted by then the Churches vnderstandinge and interpretation PILK The sence of the holy scriptures geuen by the churche is vnfalliblie true as are also the definitions and declarations of faith deliuered by the same and euerie one is bounde vppon his damnation not to reiect the iudgment therof Who knoweth not that the holie scriptures as well of the old as newe testament is contayned in certaine boundes and so is to be preferred before all the latter writinges of Bishoppes that noe man ought to doubte att all or call in question whether it be true or right whatsoeuer is written therein when as the writinges of Bishopes that haue been or are written after the canon confirmed may lawfullie be reprehended both by the wiser speache of anie that is more skilfull in that matter and by grauer authoritie of other Bishopps and wisdome of the learned and also by councells if they haue in anie point wandred from the truth and euen nationall and prouincial councells doe giue place to those that are collected out of the whole vniuersall Christian worlde and generall counsells themselues are often amended the former by the latter as often as by tryal experience the thinge was opened that before was shutt or knowne that was hidd without anie swellinge of sacrilegious pride or stiffe necke of arrogancie or contention of deadlie enuie with holy humilitie with Catholicke peace with Christian charitie CHAMP You doe greatlie abuse your readers patience farceinge your booke with such impertinencies And you doe no lesse wronge the holy Father S. August bringinge his wordes as coÌ„tradictinge the churches infallibilitie in matters of faith and interpretation of the scriptures which he so often and so euidently restifieth But to conuince you of wilfulnes in abusinge S. Aug. it shall suffice to sett here before you that onlie Testimonie of the same holy Father which is expressed in the Manuall in proofe of this position which you would haue him to contradict His wordes there sett downe are these Although noe example is brought out of holie scripture of this thinge that the Baptisme of heretickes is sufficient yett doe we followe the truth of the same scripture in this point whilst we doe that which pleaseth the whole Churche which the authoritie of scriptures doth commend And because the holie scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued by the obscuritie of these questions letâ— him consulte therevpon with the churche which without all doubte the scriptures doe shewe Iudge nowe with your selfe whether you or I speake more conformablie to S. Aug. That which you alleage out of him of the doctrine of particular Bishopps or councells compared with the doctrine of holy scripture is altogether impertinent to your purpose That which he saith of vniuersall councells that the former may be ameÌ„ded by the latter is vnderstoode of matters pertayninge to manners or practise which often are changed accordinge as circumstances
dishonour vnless you prooue more solide and sincere in the rest of your booke Which if you doe not I shall much marueyle if euer you be more imployed by your Metropolitane either to defend your owne or impugne the Catholicke doctrine And before I goe anie further with you I would haue you to vnderstande that when I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholicke I doe not distinguishe betwixt this or that sect of protestants but include them all that hold or teache against the Catholicke doctrine whether they be Lutherans Zuinglians Anabaptists or Parlamentariās all which with the rest of all the re malignāt broode I vnderstande by the name of protestants Nowe I will goe forwarde with you in this order I will first sett downe the wordes of the Manuall in sections as you haue deuided it then I will putt downe your answere in your owne wordes and lastlie I will add myne owne reply THE PREFACE TO THE READER MANVALL SECTION I. THis briefe treatise courteous reader beinge at the request of a friende speedilie compiled may serue to conuince them of manifest calumnie who no lesse vntrulie then bouldlie doe affirme the doctrine of the Catholicke Romane Churche to be either against holy scriptures or at least to haue no grounde from them And it may also geue satisfaction vnto such as more vppon the confident boldenes of them that affirme the Romane Religion to be destitute of scriptures then vppon anie other reason are drawne either to thinke this to be true or at least to doubte of the truthe of the contrarie PILK He that aduisedlie shall read your Manuall of Controuersies will easilie beleeue you were in haste when you contriued it forgettinge that wise speach of Cato reported by Hierome Sat cito si sat bene For whether it were your great celeritie which is the mother of manie slippes or whether it be the badnes of your cause that admitteth noe iust scarse probable proofe so perfunctorilie and lightlie tanquam canis à nido you haue touched these matters as if of purpose you would haue setled in the mindes of men that which you labour to ouerthrowe So that if poperie haue noe surer footinge in the sacred worde of God then this which you haue found for it then it will appeare noe calumnnie but a manifest veritie that the Roman religion is without grounde of scripture CHAMP Mr. Pilkinton thoughe your wordes be manie as emptie of substance as they are full of falsities and therefore will neither quitte labour nor cost to relate them yett will I sustaine so much paines as to sett them downe as they lye so farr as I shall goe with you I say so farr as I shall goe with you because I intend not to loose so much tyme as to looke thorowe your whole booke As for the slippes therefore you speake of if you shall make good but one quarter so manie in my whole booke notwithstandinge the the celeritie I vsed in compilinge it as I haue allreadie marked grosse and flatt falls in three pages onlie of yours after fower whole yeres studie in the worke I promise you faithfullie I will commend it to the fire to be forged a newe And thoughe Catholicke religion which you disdainsullie call poperie had no other footinge in holy Scripture then that which I haue sett downe in proofe of it yett will it be better grounded then your protestantisme euen by the iudgment of your owne freindes and myne aduersaries if they will but with one sparke of iudgment and indifferrencie parallel your proofes and myne together PILK First you confesse that the Scripture is not the totall but the partiall rule of your faith therefore that parte of your faith which is with out the compasse of this rule hath no proofe or grounde from it for the rule is that whereby euerie thinge is prooued Nowe the thinges without the compasse of this rule your selfe acknowledge to be manie yea the greatest parte of the Gospell for the least parte is come vnto vs by writinge as others teache and your selfe accorde therefore a small parte of your faith can claime this birth-right from the Scriptures but is auouched by your teachers beleeued by your hearers onlie on the creditt of tradition which euerie one might knowe if anie of your deuines woulde consigne vnto vs a catologue of your traditions A matter that in conscience they ought to doe fith your counsell chargeth to geue equall reuerence to traditions as is afforded to holy scriptures And yett none of you haue performed this taske least your aduersaries should see the pouertie of your religion how naked it is of the protection of scriptures And your selues haue a startinge hole to fly vnto vnwritten verities and traditions when you cannot deriue your doctrine from the written worde of God CHAMP I confesse the Scriptures to be a partiall rule of our faith if we speake of those thinge which are expresslie contayned in Scripture and therefore I say there must necessarilie be a more vniuersal rule of saith thē the expresse Scriptures by which rule we receiue and beleeue the Scriptures themselues to be such And this is true by the iudgment of manie most iudicious protestants Notwithstāndinge the Manuall expresslie teacheth that all articles of saith are contained in scriptures so fair as they testifie the authoritie of the churche and veritie of traditions In which sence the scriptures may trulie be sayde to be a totall rule of our faith Where you say that others teache and I accorde that the least parte of the Gospell is come to vs by writinge For my selfe I answere with as much modestie as I may that you sowlie belie me For I neuer so much as dreamed anie such thinge If you groonde this ficton vppon that which I say I here must needes be a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures vnderstandinge me that moe thinges in number are taught vs by tradition alone then by the written worde which interpretation you seeme to make of my wordes I cannot trulie blame my manner of speach but either your dull or captious vnderstandinge my wordes are plaine that because we beleeue some thinges without expresse scripture as that there is a holy scripture and that it is contayned in these and these bookes which is no where expressed in holy scripture there must necessarilie be some other rule more vniuersall that is which teacheth some thinges besides that which is directlie expressed in the holy scripture You cite in the margent Hosius whom it seemeth you vnderstande in the same manner I say it seemeth for whether it be for negligence or fraude you make no reference for what purpose you cite him neither doe you putt downe his wordes for so might you haue been taken trippinge but I finde nothinge in him soundinge to this purpose Hee hath this indeede that the scripture commaundinge vs to heare our pastonrs with whome Christe promised to be alwayes vntill
the end of the worlde it is founde true that S. Hierome saith that the scriptures containe all thinges Our diuines you say are bound in conscience to deliuer vnto you a catologue of our traditions seinge the Councell of Trent chargeth to geue equall credit to traditions and to holy Scripture But you are fowly deceaued For our diuines are bounde to receiue those traditions which the churche deliuereth vnto them and to desend them against your Cauills and not prescribe vnto the churche what traditions shee shoulde receiue This pride and arrogance pertaineth properlie to you Sectmaisters who preferr your owne priuate opinions before the iudgment of the whole churche which pride is the verie roote and cause of all heresie and errour that hath been in the worlde PILK Neuertheles the moste of these positions here by you fathered on it and I doubte not but you haue chosen the clearest are confessed by your owne side not to be of its kindred but bred and beleeued onlie vppon tradition S. Peters beinge at Rome the Popes Supremacie and succession prayer to Saincts reliques images purgatorie seuen Sacraments Exorcismes exufflations vnction in Baptisme reall presence transsubstantiation communion vnder one kinde sacrifice of Masse confirmation pennance orders extreame vnction matrimonie meritt of workes monkery with verie many more not expressed by you so that when you and your sellowes bringes the scriptures to patronise these points you fairlie imitate the ancient heretickes who knowinge theire opinions to haue no communion with the scriptures yett alleage them to seduce the simple sort CHAMP You are resolued I perceiue to be shameleslie impudent not blushinge to write that the moste of the points proued by me out of Scripture to be confessed by catholickes to be beleeued onlie vppon tradition and namelie all these sett downe in your wordes nowe related Why doe you deale so vnderboarde as not to sett downe the Authors wordes whose names you putt in the margent you feare the tryall and therefore you walke in obscuritie So manie falsities as you haue been taken with alreadie will make your reader warie enoughe to beleeue you noe further thē he seeth proofe of your sayinges And whether you and yours or limitate more fairlie the ancient heretikes in alleaginge Scriptures for theire errours to deceaue the simple it will appeare by the progresse of our dispute PILK And how can you persuade the worlde that you purpose in deede to make the scriptures the grounde of your faith which are branded by your men to be inconstant and mutable fitted to the tyme and variablie vnderstoode to be insufficient and imperfect and explicated by a councell they firmelie prooue that which before they did not that heerein they are ouertopped by traditions for that without traditions they firmelie subsist not but without them traditions haue theire strenghte that the authoritie they haue towardes men is deriued from the churche and without it they haue litle force which churche with you is the Pope Therefore for all your plea of the scriptures the Pope is the Atlas of your faith CHAMP That the scriptures are branded by anie of our mē to be inconstant mutable or fitted to the tyme is your owne slaunderous fiction or if it be not bring foorth your author and iustifie your selfe of so shameles a slaunder That the scriptures may be diuersslie vnderstoode if you denie who is he of all your fellowes that wil beleeue you Surelie noe man that is awake but will thinke rather that you dreamed when you wrote this then he will thinke that the scriptures cannot be vnderstoode diuerslie which beinge so euident by daylie experience that noe man in his senses can denie it who seeth not the necessitie of some iudgment to determine which is the true sence and meaninge thereof But that is the thinge you feare which rather then you will graunt you say that which a drunken man woulde be ashamed to haue sayde The insufficiencie of the scriptures to instruct the churche in al matters of faith stādeth right wel with theire sufficiencie to prooue those thinges which are contained expreslie in them And therefore your argument whereby you would conclude against me the insufficiencie of scriptures to prooue anie article of faith because I say it is not sufficient to prooue all the Articles of faith is more then childish and like vnto this The first chapter of Genesis is no◠sufficient to prooue all the articles of christian faith therefore it is not sufficient to prooue that God created the worlde Woulde you I pray you admitte this argument as good I thinke not thoughe I knowe you impertinent enoughe why therefore doe you goe aboute to conclude your purpose against your aduersarie by the like argument leaue for shame to make your selfe so ridiculous seinge you write your selfe so doctor of Diuinitie As for the worde imperfect I doe not knowe anie catholicke that doth vse it yett if it haue no other meaninge then insufficient to prooue all the articles of faith it is not reprehensible helpeth your cause nothinge at all The authoritie of the churche councell and tradition in explication of scriptures is as friuolusly alleaged by you to impugne the authoritie of the same scriptures as if you shoulde say the authoritie of the iudges or customes in England or anie other kingdome to interprete or expounde the Lawe doth violate and impeach the authoritie of the Lawe Your impertinencies are without measure or number The Pope is not the Churche as you more then childishlie terme him but he is the heade cheefe pastour of Gods Churche militant here vppon earth malgree all your spite and malice and therefore are you bound to heare and obey him if you woulde heare our Sauiour Christ who hath expreslie sayde of all the pastours of his churche he that heareth you heareth me but because you depise to heare our Sauiour Christe who addeth in the same place he that despiseth you despiseth me therefore you scorne to heare your pastour MANVALL SECT II. But before thou proceede to viewe the thinge it selfe I desire thee to consider wel these fewe points followinge First that no proofe of anie point of christian beliefe can be so direct and full out of holy scripture that may not be deluded by false interpretation For the damned Arrians and most other heretikes coulde interprete all places of holy scripture brought by the catholikes against theire heresie in such sence as beinge so vnderstoode they make nothinge against it yea that noe lesse seelie then peruerse heretike Legate burned in Smithfielde not longe since for Arrianisme coulde not be conuinced of heresie by onlie scripture Such proofes therefore of catholicke doctrine as cannot be deluded by anie interpretation are not to be expected out of holie scripture PILK An vnskilfull pilot that maketh shipwracke ere he getts out of the hauen You will prooue your faith out of holy scriptures and presentlie you will tell vs that your prooses
are not so direct and full but your aduersaries may delude them and that none such must be expected from you much like the soolishe or at our who vsuallie propoundinge three or fower points to speake of euer forgott one of them and then charged his aduersaries that they had bewitched him So the weakenes of your arguments is imputed to the delusion of your opposites CHAMP A blinde aduersarie that doth not see what he hath to impugne I proposed in my Manuall to shewe the catholicke doctrine to haue true grounde in the holy scriptures and this Parallelist woulde haue such conuinceinge testimonies as may not be deluded by anie false interpretation we shall belike see that he will play the man egregiouslie when it shall come to his turne to prooue his owne doctrine and will bringe such testimonies for himselfe as he requireth of me In the meane tyme lett vs heare the rest of his learned discourse PILK But to your bold and rusticke assertion that noe articles of faith are so fullie prooued out of the scripture but may be deluded by false interpretation the Fathers shall answere nothinge can delude them that search the scripture CHAMP Which of the fathers say this why doe you not name them you putt in the margent Theophilact and Chrisostome but not as authors of this your senceles assertion that none canne be deluded that search the scriptures but you geue a reason thereof out of the fathers let vs heare it PILK For they the scriptures are the candle whereby the theese is espied Chrisostome saith that Manichees and all heretickes deceiue the simple if we haue the sences of our mindes exercised to discerne good and euill we may be able to escape them But howe may our sences become practised by the vse of the scriptures and often readinge CHAMP What is all this to prooue that anie testimonie of scripture may not be deluded by a false interpretatiō that is that a peeuishe or a peruerse aduersarie cannot vnderstande or interprete it otherwise then it is meant These fathers sayinges be they trulie related by you or noe which I list not nowe examine haue this manifest sence that a catholicke man conuersant in scriptures who vnderstandeth them in the sence of the churche cannot be deceiued by heretickes but espieth quicklie their theeuish driftes which is true but farr frō that which you shoulde prooue to witt that noe hereticke can so interprete the testimonie of holy scripture but that he must necessarilie remaine conuinced of his heresie by them PILK S. August auoucheth that all articles of faith are plainlie sett downe in holy scriptures and that so euidentlie that diuers of them neede noe interpretation att all as that Christ must suffer and rise againe the third day and that repentance and remission of sinnes must be preached in his name in all nations begininge at Hierusalem as it needeth noe interpreter this gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the worlde and then shall be the end as it needeth noe interpreter yee shall be my witnesses in Hierusalem and in all Iudea Samaria and the whole earth as it needeth noe interpretour suffer both to growe vntill the haruest and when it needeth an interpretour the Lorde himselfe did interprete it whome no man dare contradict Your owne Stapleton affirmeth the Popes Supremacie which is noe meane article of your faith to be fullie and abundantlie prooued out of the scripture CHAMP Conclude out of all these wordes be they trulie related or otherwise for it importeth not to examine them that the testimonies of scripture for anie one pointe of faith may be so conueincinge that they cannott by anie false interpretation be deluded and you shall say something to the purpose otherwise all your wordes are but idle and impertinent bablinge not worthe the readinge PILK But lett it be graunted that the scriptures may be thus deluded as you woulde haue them it neither helpeth you nor hurteth me Sith whatsoeuer you adde to bringe fulnes vnto them whether traditions or councells is equallie subiect if not more to delusion then the written worde of God CHAMP I woulde you wist that I disdaine to take anie thinge of guyfte or graunt of you that pertayneth to the defence of the catholicke truth denie therefore hardelie that which you can without blushinge and graunt me no more then that I extort from you by force of argument and after good deliberation shape me answere to these demandes followinge First is it not a cheefe article of Christiā beleefe that the sonne of God is of equall or one substance and glorie with his father and secondlie is not this article as clearlie and as often sett downe in the scripture as anie other articles of our beliefe And thirdlie did not the Arrians delude by false interpretation all the proofes of the sayde article so that they remained not conuinced by anie of them nor all of them together which of all these three propositions will you denie you will not as I suppose finde anie probable ground to denie anie of them And yett if you graunt them all as they are all most manifestlie true that is clearlie concluded which I affirme and you denie to witt that noe testimonie of holy scripture can be so direct and conuincinge but that it may be eluded by false interpretation You say be it so what doth this either helpe me or hurte you But you are verie shorte sighted or rather starke blinde if you see not this For it helpeth me in that it deliuereth me of the charge or obligation to bringe such testimonie of holy scripture in proofe of the article of our catholicke beleefe as cannot by anie tergiuersation or false interpretatiō be miscōstrued or misunderstoode by you which you would seeme to tye me vnto it hurteth you because it euidentlie sheweth that the sole scriptures are not sufficiēt to conuince anie wilfull or obstinate hereticke in anie article of faith as you affirme it to be The reason that you alleage why it shoulde not helpe me nor hurte you that all criptures may be mis-interpreted is altogether misapplyed prooueinge not that for which it is alleaged but rather disprooeuinge the proposition it selfe But this is a small ouersight in your discourse you say therefore that whatsoeuer is added to the scriptures to interprete them whether traditions or counsells is equallie if not more subiect to delusion whereunto I answere First that neither counsells nor traditions are so subiect to misinterpretatiō as the scriptures are And the reason is because they expresse more particularlie theire owne sence and meaninge then the scriptures ordinarilie doe and consequentlie leaue not so much libertie of misinterpretatiō as they doe Secōdlie I answere that whēsoeuer the testimonie of councells or traditions are drawne into doubte and difficultie as often they are heretickes seruinge themselues of them as they doe of the scriptures they are to be vnderstoode accordinge to the iudgment of the
present churche which as a liuelie and liuinge iudge and interpreter hath power to interprete aswell the coūsells and traditions when there is doubte of them as it hath to interprete the scripture which beeinge added they are not subiect to anie farther doubte or delusion PILK Concerninge Tradition Eusebius will informe you that in the Cittie of Rome the rule of Ecclesiasticall Tradition was vexed with diuers nouelties and as for councells howe shamefullie your Popes woulde haue corrupted that of Nice the fathers of the first councell of Carthage haue formerlie manifested vnto the worlde and howe vainlie at this day your diuines delude the sixt Canon of the same councell purposely made to geue equall honour vnto the Patriarche to patronize your Popes Monarchie euerie bleare eie doth easilie perceiue CHAMP Your intention by inculcatinge these ould and ouerworne obiections I meane these of councells haue been answered an hundred tymes being onlie to deturne your reader from the subiect in hand and to drawe your aduersarie into like confusion of matters with you I will passe ouer those wordes of yours expectinge your confutation of the answeres alreadie to these same obiections before I will trouble my selfe to answere them againe before the first answeres be confuted by you That which Eusebius saith of vexinge traditions is true marry it was by such as your selfe and your fellowe hetetikes whose endeuours were frustrated by the catholike pastours see him reader and marueil at Mr. Pilkintons witt in citing him PILK Nowe when you cannot fullie prooue your faith out of scriptures you fall presentlie to wounde them with your slaunderous accusation that they are not able to conuince heretickes noe not such seelie ones as Legat not perceuinge how euenlie you iumpe with ould heretikes who whē they are conuinced by the scriptures fall to rayle on them as thoughe they were not right nor sufficientlie authorized but various and not full to finde the truth by them without tradition CHAMP Why doe you not I pray your answere the instance made in Legat ◠knowe well the reason you can as well answere it as you can beate downe Paules steeple with your fiste You call it in this same section a sheepishe obiection but that is onlie a caluishe solution And that heretikes cannott be conuinced out of scripture onlie hearken I pray you to aunciēt Tertullian who was better conuersant in these conflictes then either of vs yea then both of vs putt together thus he writeth The conflict with the scriptures profiteth nothinge but to turne either the stomacke or the braine For which he geueth this reason This herefie receiueth not certaine scriptures as the protestants for examples and if it receiue anie it araweth them to her purpose by additions and detractions And if it receiue the whole scriptures it depraueth them by diuers expositions Whereas the adulterous sence doth no lesse destroy the truth then doth the corrupted letter What wilt thou gaine then that arte cunninge in scriptures when that which thou defendest is denyed and that which thou denyest is defended Thou shalt indeede loose nothinge but thy voyce with contēdinge nor shalt thou gayne anie thinge but choler hearinge blasphemies The heretikes will say that we adulterate the scripture and bringe lyinge expositions and that they defende the truth Therefore must not appeale be made to the scriptures nor must the conflict be in them by which the victorie is either vncertayne or little certaine or none att all But lett vs nowe goe forwarde PILK But lett this be the first issue betwixt you and me whether scriptures onlie will fullie conuince heretikes wherein the negatiue is yours the affirmatiue mine and thus I double it out of the worde of God That which doth perfect the man of God to euerie good worke enableth him fullie to conuince heretikes for this is one mayne dutie of his callinge to conuince contradictours But the scriptures doe perfect the man of God to euerie good worke and particularlie S. Paule expresseth conuiction therefore they teach him fullie to conuince heretickes CHAMP I verie willinglie accept of your chalenge and am content to ioyne issue with you in this point desiringe no other iudge or vmpire of the victorie then your owne patron of Canterburie To your double therefore out of the worde of God I answere that the minor or seconde proposition of your argument is not out of scripture nor in it selfe true For the place of scripture which you ayme at is this All scripture inspired by God i◠profitable to teache to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the man of God may be perfect instructed to euerie good worke Out of which place if you woulde conclude anie thinge by lawfull argument you shoulde argue thus That which is profitable to teach to argue to correct and instruct in iustice that the man of God may be perfect instructed in euerie good worke is sufficient so fullie to conuince heretikes of theire errour that they cannot delude it by false interpretation But all scripture inspired by God is such therefore all scripture inspired by God is sufficient so fullie to conuince heretikes that they cannot delude it by false interpretation The conclusion of which argument is the issue betwixt you and me The medium you vse to prooue it are the wordes of the Apostle which if you had putt downe simplie and whollie and not dubled as you say by curtayllinge them you would easilie haue seene if you see anie thinge that they are as farr from cōcludinge your affirmatiue as the argument followinge is from concludinge that which is put in the conclusion thereof Marke it I pray you and learne to argue better especiallie when you dispute for the victorie in a matter of such moment as this is That which is proffitable to nourishe to exhilarate and conforte or strengthen man that he may be able to exercise all man-like functions and actions is sufficient to defende him from his enemies and to vanquishe them Butt al wines are such Therfore al wines are sufficiēt to defende a mā frō his enimies to vanquishe thē By which argumēt which is the verie same in forme that yours shoulde be if you would haue formed it out of the Apostles wordes you see if you onlie are not blinde how ridiculouslie you double your affirmatiue out of gods worde Besides your argument is for diuers other respects either foolishe or fraudubent For S. Paule saith that all scripture that is euerie parte parcell of scripture is profitable to teache c yet you will not I hope say that euerie parcell of scripture is sufficient to conuince heretikes Agayne the Apostle speaketh manifestlie of such scriptures as Timothy had learned from his childehoode which without controuersie were onlie the scriptures of the old testament of which you will not affirme that they are sufficient to conuince all heretikes And so you see the liuinge wherewith you woulde double your affirmatiue to be so
poore stuffe that were your cloake doubled with no better lyninge you would feele the winter could noe lesse then if your cloake were simple but lett vs see peraduenture you haue better stuffe behynde PILK That way which Christ and his Apostles tooke to conuince heretikes is a full and direct way but they conuinced them by scripture only The Saduces that were heretikes amongst the Iewes denyinge the resurrection werethus by Christ putt to silence so were the false Apostles that vrged Circumsion by the councell at Hierusalem and thus Apollo confuted the Iewes sheweinge by the scriptures that Iesus was Christe CHAMP These examples of Christe and the Apostles doe clearlie conuince your affirmatiue wherein is our issue to be false For otherwise all these that hearde theÌ„ should haue been conuerted from theire errours which they were not And assuredlie if you take those places of scripture vsed by our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles to be of themselues conuincinge abstractinge from the authoritie of those that vsed theÌ„ you will conuince your selfe to be a madde man and not a doctor of diuinitie The way therfore that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles then vsed and which all the Doctors of gods churche haue euer since exercised to conuince heretikes by scripture is doubtles most conuenient and good which is not in controuersie betweene you and me but onlie whether it be such as by noe false interpretation it may be auoyded deluded or frustrated of the effect which these verie examples brought by you and the experience of all times doe demoÌ„strate to be true against you And this might fullie suffice for that which you add but least you may complaine of your wordes concealed I will sett them downe PILK Lastlie the fathers thus taught that heretickes might be conuinced solelie by the scriptures Take from the heretikes their heathenishe learninge that by scriptures onlie they must prooue theire opinions they cannot stande saith Tertullian See howe nere vnto danger they be that refuse to exercise themselues in scripture for of them onlie the iudgment of this triall must be knowne CHAMP Howe impertinent alwayes you are you shoulde prooue that heretikes may be conuinced by scriptures onlie and you bringe Tertullian to prooue that heretikes cannot prooue theire errouis out of scriptures speakinge of one particular heresie against the resurrectio which article of the resurrectioÌ„ being not to be prooued by naturall discourse but out of scripture onlie therefore those heretickes that neglect to reade them were in daunger to continue in theire errour But if you make anie esteeme of Tertullian his iudgment in this matter see his wordes cited a litle before and iudge your selfe whether he fauour your affirmatiue or my negatiue more PILK Athanasins writinge to Serapion against thâ—se heretikes that taught the holy ghost to be a creature chargeth him to learne onlie these thinges that are in the scriptures For the documents contayned therein aboute this pointe are of theÌ„selues sufficient and doe satisfie S. Aug Chargeth the Donatists to prooue theire churche onlie by the canonicall scriptures and remouinge all other thinges to demonstrate theire churche if they were able not in the wordes and rumors of Affricanes not in the councelles of the Bishops not in the letters of anie disputers not in signes and lyinge miracles because we are forewarned fore-armed against these thinges by the worde of God but in the prescripte of the lawe the predictions of the prophetts in the songes of the psalmes in the voyce of the Shephearde himselfe in the Sermons and labours of the Euangelistes that is in all the canonicall authorities of the holy booke Innocent i. bishoppe of Rome saith that by the sole testimonie of holy scriptures the heresie of Pelagius might be refuted The testimonie of the fathers are infinite in this kinde which to auoyde prolixitie I passe ouer and conclude with that charge of Constantine to the fathers of the Nicene councell where Arrianisine receiued its deathes wounde to satisfie the sheepishe obiection of seelie Legat the bookes of the Euangelists and the Apostles together with oracles of the auncient prophets doe plainlie teach vs what we are to thinke of diuine thinges or as Bellarmine readeth it of the nature of God Therefore layinge a side all contention let vs out of the diuine inspired scriptures take the resolution of these thinges that are in question CHAMP Manie wordes nothinge to the purpose Which of all these testimonies be they trulie related by you which I list not examine because they are nothinge to the purpose or of those infinite others which you more prudentlie omitte then you haue related these say that the heretikes may be so conuinced by onlie scripture that they cannot delude them by anie false interpretation which is our issue as you knowe The charge of Constantine as you ridiculouslie terme it doth sufficientlie euict my cause against you so wiselie you pleade for your selfe and so solidelie you satisfie the obiection of seelie Legat which you esteeminge sheepishe shewe your selfe to be more then a sheepe in not soluinge it for which of all the testimonies out of the bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles or the oracles of the auncient prophets did so conuince the Arriaus that they had not some answere for it not one surelie Therefore all these wordes of yours containe nothinge but an argument of your wilfull obstinacie against an euident truth And therefore to conclude my defence in this issue I will aske you whether you are conuinced of the real persence by these wordes hoc est corpus meum or of the power to remitt sinnes by these quorum remiseritis â—eâ—cata remittuntur eâ—s or of the infallibilitie of the churche by these quae est coâ—umna firmamentum veritatis to omitte the rest if you say you are not conuinced as by your profession I coniecture you will say then I will further aske you what more cleare testimonies of scripture you canne bringe for anie one article of our faith and because I knowe you cannot bringe anie more direct or pregnant I therefore chalenge coniure you euen by the iudgment of your patron of Canterbury whose arbitrement I doe not refuse in this cause either to confesse your selfe conuinced in these points of Catholicke doctrine or to confesse that heretickes cannot be conuinced by onlie scriptures and so shall I gaine mine issue against you Which beinge euicted the note of the Manual remaineth entire and vntouched notwithstandinge all your tedious and prolixe wranglinge against it MANVALL SECTIO 3. Secondlie that thoughe the protestants may alleage texts of holy scripture for the proofe of some poinctes of theire doctrine yett that alone is not sufficient to make it true both because the same poinctes are prooued false by other places of scripture and also for that all heretickes haue euer brought scripture for theire heresie and none more apparant or frequent then the damned and
blasphemous Arians To say nothinge of the diuell his citinge of scripture euen against our blessed Sauiour by al which it is more then euident that the sence of holy scripture besides the wordes is necessarilie required to make sufficient proofe of true doctrine For which reason I often bringe the incorrupte testimonie of some holy father for the sence of the place alleaged by me who haueinge liued att least a thousande yeares before these controuersies began cannott be esteemed partiall one our side PILK We adore the fulnes of scripture and prooue from thence not some but euerie pointe of our doctrine which you Iesuits neither canne doe nor professe to doe but the contrarie charginge them with insufficiencie and imperfection which howe manfullie you can desprooue by other texts will appeare in the discourse ensuinge CHAMP As you are more redounâ— in wordes in this section then in the precedent so are you more impertinent Your flant out of Tertullian shall be answered in the controuersie of scripture where you repeat it againe And for your vaine and windie brag to prooue euerie point of your doctrine out of holy scripture I knowe alreadie howe it will be performed to witt by fillinge your margents with quotations of scripture to delude the ignorant which beinge examined and compared with the article to be prooued haue as much resemblaÌ„ce with it as an aple with an oyster The ministers of Fraunce beinge of late detected of this fraude before the kinge himselfe and prouoked by his preacher to iustifie theire citations of scripture quoted in the margent of the confession of theire faith thoughe they seemed to take haynouslie the accusation yett till this day haue they not iustified theire quotations nor euer will Howe you will quitt your selfe in this point we shall see when we come vnto itt PILK In the meane while it is vntrue that all heretikes alleaged scriptures which they loue as wel as dogges doe whippes but iust as you papists say there is more force in tradition then in the written worde for they are owles that cannot abide the light of the scripture they massacre them as Martian did that they may builde vppe theire owne matters they alleage Apostolicall traditions as Artemon did who saide that all the auncients yea the Apostells taught and saide like himselfe and laide handes on the scriptures irreligiouslie sayinge that he had reformed them CHAMP You affirme bouldlie but prooue nothinge a fowle faulte in a doctour That all heretikes vniuersallie alleage scriptures which you say is moste vntrue heare the testimonie of one that is not partiall to either of vs and of more iudgment in this matter then vs both I meane Vincentius Lirinensis of equall standinge with S. Aug. who writeth thus Some will peraduenture demande here whether heretikes doe vse the testimonies of scripture They doâ— trulie and that vehementlie For you shall see them runne thorough all the bookes of holy scripture throughe the bookes of Moses of the kinges of the psalmes of the Apostles Euangelists and prophets For whether they speake with theire owne fellowes or with other whether priuatelie or publikelie whether in Sermons or in bookes whether in banquetts or in the streetes they neuer vtter anie thinge of theire owne but they will seeme to shaddowe it with the wordes of scripture Reade the workes of Paulus Samosateuus of Priscilian of Eunomius of Luther Caluin Zuinglius and of the rest of the plagues thou shalt finde almost an infinite heape of examples noe page that is not painted with the passages ' of the newe testament Nowe iudge your selfe whether your sayinge or myne is the more vntrue Yea which is more doe not I pray you the phaÌ„tasticall Swinkefildians a younger broode of your grande father Luther alleage scripture for theire reiectinge of all scripture and adheringe to theire dreames and reuelations yea and such scriptures as if you had the like for anie pointe of your misbeleefe you would thinke it fullie prooued by them You say that heretikes hate scriptures as dogges doe whippes which is true when they are vnderstoode in the sence of the churche and not accordinge to theire owne interpretation and after the same manner doe you loue them and not otherwise They affirme say you as papists doâ— more force to be in traditions then in scriptures What papist can you name that euer affirmed this name one at least or say you belie theÌ„ and doe not inuert the question but compare the receiued scripture with an approoued tradition for so are they to be compared to finde out whether of them hath the greater force where I woulde haue you further to note that the heretikes theire alleaginge of traditions doth prooue the authoritie of traditions euen with catholikes For no man of common seÌ„ce will alleage an authoritie which he knoweth to be not receiued of his aduersarie or could proue that it ought to be receiued You say Marâ—ion did massacre the scriptures But did he massacre the them more then your Maysters Luther and Caluin doe who cutt out of them manie whole bookes besides manie notable parcels of those bookes which they seeme to receiue Artemon you say affirmed that all the auncients yea the Apostles taught as he did and yett layde irreligious handes vppon the scriptures sayinge he had reformed them And doe not I pray you your masters say and doe the verie same where for the loue of God were your witts when you wrote these thinges that you sawe not all these sayinges of yours to be bloudie stripes to your selfe lett vs see the rest PILK Yea Arrius himselfe began thus his booke Thalia After this manner haue I learned of the elect of God accordinge to faith the knowers of him and the right walkers after him And of his followers whom you esteeme to haue stoode so much vppon the scriptures Athanasius reportes that when they coulde not preuaile by them they fledd to the Fathers as theeues vsuallie pretende honest and modest men to be theire companions like the wicked Iewes which claimed Abraham for theire Father when they were conuicted by the scriptures Against all which as against your traditions we oppose that worthie sayinge of Hierome All thinges that they pretende without authoritie and testimonie of scriptures the worde of God thrust through CHAMP You goe still forewarde in your impertinences hauinge either forgotten what you shoulde prooue or wittinglie wandringe vpp and downe to dazell the eies of your lesse skilfull reader and to wearie your aduersarie with followinge your idle stepps What I pray you doth all this you haue sayde make to prooue that heretickes alleage not scriptures for theire errours which is that you vndertooke to prooue nothinge att all If you woulde prooue that Arrius and his sectaries alleaged not scriptures for theire heresie because in the first line of his booke Thalia which seemeth to haue much semblance with the stile of your elected brotherhoode he alleageth none you are too seelie a
disputer to beare the name of a doctour But S. Athanasius saith they fledd to the fathers seinge they coulde not preuaile by the scriptures Be it that S. Athan saith soe it is euident thereby that they alleaged scriptures contrarie to your assertion S. HieroÌ„ whom you drawe in by the eares saith as little to your purpose putt case you cite him truelie which I will not stande to examine For he saith no such thinge as that heretikes alleage not scriptures which you shoulde prooue but because you imagine his sayinge to make against traditions which if you had but one sparke of iudgment you would see howe vnseasonablie you impugne here I will answere it by puttinge you in minde that catholickes pretend not traditions without the testimonie of scriptures butt accordinge to the expresse testimonie thereof which you knowe and therefore is your impertinencie in alleaginge S. Hierome his wordes lesse excusable PILK What then thoughe Satan the Father and heretikes his sonnes abuse the letter of the scripture as you papists nowe doe yett with noe other weapon did Christ conquer him and them to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spirit wherewith the deuill and all his adherents must be putt to flight but this you say is the sence and not the wordes onlie CHAMP Whether you or we abuse the scriptures as Satan did is in controuersie betweene vs and must necessarilie light vppon one side In the meane tyme whilst it appeare whether you or we be the scholers of Satan hence it is clearlie manifest that it is not enoughe for the proofe of anie doctrine to cite scripture for it which is my position against which you haue hitherto wilfullie wrangled And if you will stande to that ignoraunt paradox of yours that with no other weapon then the scriptures our Sauiour conquered the deuill and his children and that to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spiritt where with they are to be putt to flight blott out of your Bibles the whole newe testament as you haue donne manie bookes of the ould for no worde of the newe testament was written diuers yeeres after our Sauiours Ascention into heauen and triumphe ouer the deuill and hel Woulde you haue me conclud this in forme of argument against you Here take it That scripture onlie is the sworde of the spirit which our Sauiour vsed But he vsed noe other scripture then the oulde testament ergo the ould testament oulie is the sworde of the spirit The maior is your owne the minor is euident the conclusion followeth directlie vpon the premisses Whence clearlie followeth this consequence Therefore the newe testament is not necessarie So that you see howe well you argue for the authoritie and dignitie of holy scripture But qui ambulat in tenebris nescit quo vaait PILK Madd Orestes would sweare he were out of his witts that could imagine otherwise For the the Gospell lyeth not in the wordes of the scripture but in the sence not in the rinde but in the pith not in the leaues of speeches but in the grounde of reason saith the same Father Wherein it followeth that gods worde foolishlie vnderstoode is not his worde which consisteth not in reading but in vnderstandinge and that adulteratinge the sence hurteth the truth as much as marringe the sentences of scriptures The sence then is the GarlaÌ„d we striue for which whether it be with you or vs you refer your selfe vnto the incorrupte testimonie of some holy Father that liued a thousand yeres a goe as if you meant to stand to the Fathers verdict whome your good maysters as scornefullie contemne as if they were schoole boyes when once they contradict the sence of the Roman church CHAMP I willinglie ioyne with you in this issue also that the sence of the scripture is the garlande you ought to striue for And if you dare the Fathers shall be the iudge of our plea but you dare as well eat hoat coales as stande to theire verdict PILK When we prooue out of Tertullian that liued 200. yeeres after Christ that Pope Zepherinus fauored the heresie of Montanus contrarie to your newe Roman Sence that Popes cannot erre we must not at all beleeue Tertullian in this point saith Bellarmine For he was a Montanist yea an euill spiritt so carried him that of euill being made worse and worse and most filthie he spued out most horrible blasphemies saith Barronius CHAMP What is this to the purpose of tryinge the true sence of the scriptures haue you so quicklie forgotten the thinge in question But to followe you in your extrauagances least you should thinke your obiection not to be answered Tell me I pray you in the small honestie of a minister whether you geue more creditt to Tertullian nowe a confessed heretike in a matter aduantageous to his errour then to all antiquitie testifyinge Zepherin Pope to haue been an holy Sainte and Martyr Are you so maliuouslie bent against the Pope and sea of Rome that to fix some fault vppon them you will put Saincts out of heauen make martyrs heretikes and that for the bare testimonie of a professed heretike lett the iudicious reader iudge what spiritt you are guided by PILK When we vrge S. Aug. to prooue that in the state of corruption there is no free will in man to that which is good contrarie to your sence Stapleton saith he went beyond all good measure in his dispute against Pelagius with like vsage doe they entertaine the rest when they crosse theire grosse errours CHAMP This obiection is as impertinent as the precedent For be it that the Fathers haue some harde speeches which heretikes abuse to theire owne hurte what maruell sith the holy ghost testifieth the like of the holy scriptures themselues Stapleton speaketh neuer a worde directlie of free will in that chapter nor yett of S. Aug. opinion thereof But hauinge shewed S. August to haue taught that gentills and others not iustified doe not sinne in all theire workes obiecteth to himselfe certaine places out of S Aug. where disputinge against Iulian the Pelagian he seemeth to incline to the contrarie opinion Which hauinge answered and explicated by other of his sayinges in the same places he concludeth Sed vtâ—unque in hac disputatione moaum forâ—asse excesserit Augustinus vt propter aduersarij putuiantissiman impudentiam etiam peccata esse diceret quae vere perfecte bona non essent tamen nusquan alibi id dixisse aut scripsisse legitur vbi sine aduersario non agonostice sed dogmatice scripsit Which are the wordes of StapletoÌ„ you carpe att but why if you consider them a little better you will not easilie shewe PILK For howesoeuer your councell of Trent make a semblance to decree that the scriptures must be interpreted accordinge to the sence which the churche holdeth or the vnanimous consent of the fathers approoueth yett it is plaine that as when Caesar and Bibulus were consulls together whatsoeuer
was decreed and donne was ascribed to Caesar Bibulus was a Cypher So whatsoeuer interpretation the RomaÌ„ churche that is the Pope geueth that must be intertayued the fathers sett behinde the dore This your Cardinall that was present at the counsell vnder Pius the fowerth telleth vs. Whatsoeuer the churche teacheth vs is the expresse worde of God whatsoeuer is taught contrarie to the sence and sentence of the churche is the expresse worde of the diuell CHAMP I maruell whither you will wander at lenght what is all this to the tryinge whether you or we haue the true sence of the scriptures The councell of Trent decreeth expreslie that which you seeme to approoue and yett you are not content with it your example of Caesar and Bibulus in a grammer scholler had been tollerable but in a D. of diuinitie it is too ridiculous And if you dislike the doctrine which you ascribe to Cardinal Hosius why doe you onlie mumble and grumble att it with in your teeth without disproouinge it either by scriptures or fathers But your malice will not permitt you to imbrace the truth nor your courage or strenght serue you to impugne it PILK And another more auncient then he It is no maruelle if the practise of the churche at one tyme interprett the scriptures after this manner and another after that for the vnderstandinge runneth with the practice for that sence which is concurrent with the practice is the quickinge spiritt therefore the scriptures followe church not conuertiblie If then the sentence of the Fathers ruÌ„ne not with the moderne Roman church they are not the messengers of God but in this manes opinion instruments of the diuell CHAMP You still wander out of the way and stray from your purpose But I will yett folowe you thoughe not without some patience Cusanus speaketh expresslie of the vse or sece of scriptures so farr as they pertaine to the rite order or manner of administring the Sacraments and namelie of Communion vnder one or both kindes which rites or Ceremonies because they may be diuerse and changeable without anie preiudice either to the nature of the Sacraments or to the veritie of holy scripture as indeede they are at this day different in the Greeke and Latin church the one consecratinge the holy Eucharist in leauened bredd the other in vnleauened and yett neither of them contrarie to the scriptures they may be altered and changed accordinge as the wisdome of gods churche seeth iust occasion and yett accordinge to the sence and meaning of the holy scriptures which to the churche is neuer vnknowne and this is Cusanus his plaine doctrine which you could not haue been ignorant of if you had read him yourselfe But it is your good nature to make alwaies the worst sence of your authors to deceaue your reader thereby For he speaketh not of scriptures so farr as they containe articles of faith which euer are the same but as they appertaine to matters of practice which may be different accordinge to the diuersitie of circumstances occurringe In settinge downe his wordes you vse your accustomed arte and fraude For his wordes where vppon you would make your cheefe aduantage are these Therefore the scriptures followe the church which was before them and for which the scriptures are not contrarie That is the churche is not for the scriptures Whereas you leauing out some parte of his speache make his wordes to sound that the sence and meaninge of the scriptures followe the vnderstandinge of the churche and not the vnderstandinge of the churche the sence of scriptures but might be contrarie vnto it which neither he nor anie other catholick man euer dreamed of PILK And in verie deed thoughe the Pope hath deuised a solemne oath whereunto your prosessours are sworne that they shall admitte of the holy scriptures accordinge to that sence which the holy mother the churche holdeth and they shall not at anie tyme take or interprett them but accordinge to the vnanimous consent of the fathers yett it is manifest that they doe not onlie leaue the sence which the fathers followe but followe that which noe father within 500. yeres after Christ did euer dreame of CHAMP Seinge the councell of Trent hath decreed as you say and the Pope hath appointed an othe to binde men to followe the sence of the scriptures deliuered by the church and consent of the fathers you haue small reason to say it is manifest that catholikes doe leaue that sence without some manifest proofe of your assertion which I will expect and exact of you vnder paine to esteeme you a rashe and slaunderous impostour In the meane tyme whilst you performe this taske you may for your erudition vnderstand that it is one thinge to giue an interpretation of a place of scripture which the fathers haue not geuen before and another to interprete it contrarie to the vniforme Consent of fathers The churche of god beinge no lesse assisted nowe by the holie ghost which teacheth her all truth accordinge to the infalible promise of our auiour Christe then was the churche within the first 500. yeeres shee is no lesse able to interprete the scripture accordinge to the true meaninge thereof then shee was then yet shee neuer gaâ—e-saith the interpretation of the auncient churche or of the vniforme consent of the holy fathers but lett vs heare howe you prooue your sayinge PILK Your late diuines interpretinge that place there shall be one flocke and one Shephearde forsake the fathers which vnderstande it of Christ and cleaue to the sence of theire mother who will haue it to be the Pope CHAMP Are you a master in Cambridge and knowe not that these two sences may be both true without anie contrarietie neither moderne nor auntient diuines euer vnderstood this place otherwise then of our Sauiour Christ principallie and for himselfe or per excellâ—ntiam But that it is not trulie vnderstood of him to whome he commended his flock which he redeemed as S. Chriâ—ostome saith who therefore is his vicar and vicegerent here in earth and also of his lauful successour in the same charge secondarilie and by participation none but contentious heretikes who will see nothinge in the scriptures contratie to theire errour doe will or canne denie PILK Doe this in remembrance of me that is sacrifice this is nowe the sence of the Roman churche shewe one father that tooke it soe and you shall weare the garland CHAMP Stand to your worde and the garlande will be mine by anie indifferent mans iudgment Heare S. Ireneus who liued aboue 1400. yeres agoe â—uÌ„ qui ex creatura panis est accepit gratias egit dicens Hoc est corpus meuÌ„ caliceÌ„ similiter qui est ex creatura quae est secundum nos suum sanguinem confessus ect noui testamenti nouam docuit oblationcm quam Ecclesia ab Apostoliâ— accipieÌ„s in vniuerso mundo offerâ— Deo When he tooke that which is of the creature bread
and gaue thankes sayinge This is mâ— boddy and likewise the chalice which is of the creature which is with vs hee confessed it to be his bloode and taught a newe oblation ' of the newe lawe which the Church receauinge from the Apostles doth offer it to God thorough the whole worlde These are his wordes you will peraduenture say that here is no mention of these wordes doe this the exposition whereof is nowe in question It is true that here is no expresse mention of them But S. Ireneus epreslie sayinge that our Sauiour Christ when he sayde hoc est corpus meum taught a newe oblation of the newe Testament declareth plainlie in what wordes he taught this oblatioÌ„ For it beinge clear in S. Ireneus his doctrine that our Sauiour Chr. sacrificed his bodie and bloud at that tyme it cannot be called into doubt but he gaue to his Apostles by these wordes doe this power and authoritie to doe the same PILK What father euer conceiued drinke ye all of this to be vnderstoode onlie of priests and not of the people also which nowe is the sence of your holy mother CHAMP No man saith these wordes drinke â—ee all of this so to haue been spoken to the Apostells and consequentlie to priests that the laytie is by diuine precept excluded but that they may if the churche which all that will not be as publicans and heathens are bound to heare thinke good also drinke thereof as they haue donne in some tymes and some places But that these wordes are so spoken to the laytie that they are commaunded to drinke of the Chalice you cannot I thinke shewe anie one father that affirmeth it much lesse the vniforme consent of the fathers And therefore your obiection is altogether impertinent to prooue that we leaue the interpretation of the fathers PILK Againe psalme the. S. God putt all thinges vnder his seete that is of the Pope beastes of the field that is men liuinge vppon the earth fishes of the sea that is soules in purgatorie fowles of heauen that is soules of the blessed which by Canonization the Pope may propose to be adored name anie father if you can that so dalyed and played with godes sacred worde CHAMP Name you anie one chatholike Doctor that geueth this interpretation of this place for the literall sence thereof or if you cannot blush at your impertinencies bringinge the morall or misticall interpretation of one author to prooue that catholikes leaue the vniforme literall interpretation of the scriptures geuen by the fathers yea though this were geuen for the literal sence of this place yet would it not prooue that we leaue the fathers interpretation of the same place one passage of scripture beinge capable of diuers literall interpretations so that your impertinencie appeareth yett more grosse PILK As then the Iewes tyed themselues to theire Rabbines that they must receiue whatsoeuer they teach thoughe they say the right hande is the lefte so haue you captiuated your self in such manner to the sence of the Romane churche that one of yours is not afrayde to teache is anie man haue her interpretation of anie place of scripture thoughe he neither knowe or vnderstande whether or howe it agree with the scriptures yett he hath the worde of god CHAM We doe not imitate the Iewes in adheringe to the churches sence of the scripture as you idlie imagine but we followe therein the expresse doctrine of our Sauiour Christ who tell'eth vs that he that will not heare the churche is to be esteemed as a publican or heathen whose doctrine if you did esteeme more then your owne fancie you would not carpe at that sayinge of Hosius which is true if the gospell itselfe which teacheth the like doctrine be not false PILK As for the fathers we reade theire workes and geue God thankes for theire labours who haue cleared manie obscurities in the scriptures desended the auntient doctrine of the church against the nouelties of heretikes yett with their good leaues we passe by theire interpretations when they are dissonant from the scriptures and willinglie imbrace them when they are consonaÌ„t tryinge theire expositions by them not them by theire expositions and in a worde euer deducing the sence of the scriptures from themselues CHAMP It is well you here acknowledge some obscurities in the scriptures Hereafter if I be not deceiued you will come to denie all such thinge as shall be noted when we come to the place if we goe so farr together The honour you geue here to the fathers workes is no other then you geue to the damnedst heretikes that euer wrote so kinde you are vnto them For that which anie heretike saith conformablie to holy scripture you willinglie imbrace And in one worde you deduce the sence of scriptures from your owne selfe-willed fancie makinge it say what you list to belieue and not belieuinge that which the scriptures say indeede PILK Not without cause is there an healthfull ecclesiasticall Canon vigilantlie constituted whereunto certayne bookes of the prophets and Apostels doe appertaine which we doe not iudge att all and accordinge to which we iudge freelie of other letters of the faithfull or of infidels saith S. August So that beinge vrged with Cyprians authoritie that these which were baptized in heresie or schisme were to be rebaptized he answereth we offer noe wronge to Cyprian when we putt a difference betweene his letters and the Canonicall authoritie of holy scriptures for as he goeth on in the next chapter I doe not accompte of Cyprians letters as Canonicall but I weigh them by the bookes that are Canonicall and what is agreable in them to the authoritie of diuine scriptures I with praise intertayne and what is disagreeinge with his leaue I refuse CHAMP We neither compare nor oppose the fathers workes to the scriptures and therefore these wordes of S Aug. are as impertinentlie alleaged by you as all the rest you haue hitherto sayde If anie one father teach anie thinge contrarie to the scriptures interpreted by the rest of the fathers and the catholicke churche as S. Cyprian of humane errour and not of willfull obstinacie did we receiue not his doctrine in that pointe As S. August in the 32. cap. here quoted by you expresslie saith in these wordes That which bâ—esseâ— cyprian thought of the baptizinge of heretikes and schismatikes I receiue not because the churche doth not receiue it for the which S. Cyprian shedd his blood Followe you S. Aug example in refusinge the fathers interpretation in this manner no man will finde faulte with you PILK This freedome which S. Aug. sheweth we protestants freelie mantaine against the slauerie of your popish spiritts knowinge what is due to men and acknowledginge what is proper to gods holy worde which we euer interprete out of it selfe wherein we followe the direction of the auÌ„tient priests and leuits that read the lawe vnto the people expoundinge the meaninge and gaue the
there appeare a â—arre in the scriptures that some of them are opposed to others as it fell out betweene the auncient Bishoppes and the Arrians betweene the Catholikes and Donatists betweene Pelagians and godlie teachers and nowe betweene you and vs that on both sides they are produced a iudge must be sought for to reconcile them Who is that not a Christian for he is partie on the one side or the other not a pagan he knoweth not the misteries of Christianitie not a Iewe for he is an enemie to Christian Baptisme on Earth there can be founde noe iudgment saith Optatus But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospell his testament for here earthlie thinges may be compared to heauenlie See howe we may come to the true sence not by seekinge vnto the Pope not by restinge vppon determinations of councels not by settinge on Traditions but by flyinge vnto the Testament For as the same Optatus goeth on Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthlie Father who hauinge manie children ruleth them all so longe as he liueth noe testament so longe is necessarie euen so Christ so longe as he was present vppon earth althoughe nowe he be not wantinge gaue in charge vnto the Apostles whatsoeuer for the tyme was necessarie But as an earthlie father feelinge himselfe in the consines of death fearinge after his decease his children will contendâ— and breake peace calleth witnesses and from his dyinge breast draweth his will into lastinge tables and if there fall out anie contention amonge the brethren they goe not to his tombe but seeke his testament and so he that quietly resteth in his tombe speaketh still from the tables as if he were aliue He whose testament we haue is in heauen therefore lett his will be sought for in his gospell as in a testament for these thinges which presentlie yeâ— doe he foresawe that yee would doe CHAMP Because these sayinges of Optatus haue the same meaninge with that of S. Aug which imediatlie followeth it shall there appeare howe litle they serue your turne Here are onlie to be noted these wordes of his On earth there is founde noe iudge By which wordes he excludeth not all iudgment vppon earth for so should he exclude the testament also it selfe but he excludeth all earthlie or humane iudgment as vnfitt and vnable to decide differencies of faith of which sorte the iudgment of the churche is not For shee is the piller and ground of truth perpetuallie assisted by the holy Ghost which teacheth and suggesteth to her all truth PILK S. August runneth the verie same course almost vseth the same wordes as if he had taken them out of Optatus we are brethren saith he why doe we striue our father died not intestate he hath made a testament and so died men doe striue aboute the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read the iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the crier biddeth peace all the people are attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read and heard he lyeth voide of life and feelinge in his graue and his wordes preuaile Christe doth sitt in heauen and is his testament gainsayde open it lett vs reade it we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes be pacified our father hath not lefte vs without a testament he that made the testament is liuinge for euer he doth heare our wordes he doth knowe his owne worde why doe we striue CHAMP S. Aug by these plaine wordes of the spalme Reminisâ—entur conuertentur ad Dominum omnes fines terrae Et adorabunt in conspectâ— eius vniuersae familiae genti 〈…〉 as by the confessed testament of the father prooueth that the Donatists haue noe right to the inheritance of the churche which they contrarie to the testament of God expressed in the psalme say was onlie in a corner of the world amongst them Who notwithstandinge were not come to that degree of seÌ„clesnes as to say the church was inuisible as the protestants doe Iustlie therefore did S. Aug prouoke the Donatists in this pointe to the tryall of the testament as also the catholikes doe the protestantes in the pointe of the reall presence and diuers others Which tryall notwithstandinge is not sufficient where either scripture is opposed to scripture or it is not agreed vppon which is the scripture it selfe as it happeneth betweene the catholikes and protestants as shall â—ore amplie appeare by and by PILK And S. Ambrose more auncient then both to Gratian the Emperour Beleeue not Emperour our Argument and our disputation let vs aske the Scriptures let vs aske the Apostles let vs aske the Prophets let vs aske Christ what shoulde I adde more let vs aske the Father of whose honour they say they are Iealous CHAMP Sr. you alwaies speake besides the purpose The question betweene you and me is not whether the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the church are not sufficient to decide anie controuersie in faith and namelie that whereof S. Amb. disputeth which is not denyed vnto you but whether the scriptures lefte vnto the interpretation of either party contendinge are a sufficient iudge to end all controuersies in faith In which question I defende the negatiue and you the affirmatiue if you will yett contend anie more These testimonies therefore of the fathers aswell of S. Ambrose as those that went before and also that followe are alleaged beside the question and altogether impertinentlie as all the rest of your sayinges for the moste parte are PILK A Gentile cometh and saith I woulde be a Christian but I knowe not which side to cleaue vnto manie dissentions are amonge you and I cannot tell which opinion to holde euerie one saith I speake the truth and the scriptures on both sides are pretended so that I knowe not whom to beleeue To this Chrisostome replyeth trulie this maketh much for vs for well might you be troubled if we should say we rely vppon reason but seeinge we take the scriptures which are so true and playne it will be an easie matter for you to iudge if anie consent vnto them he is a Christian if anie goe against them he is farr from this rule CHAMP This allegation of S. Chrisost is not onlie impertinent as all the rest are but fraudulent and proceedinge of a minde not willinge to finde out the truth but to deceiue the reader For the wordes imediatlie followinge and lefte out by you Mr. Pilkinton propose directlie the question which nowe is in hande and the answere thereof followeth also consequentlie Quid igitur saith S. Chrisost What therefore if he say that the scripture hath in this sort and thou sayest another thinge explicatinge the scriptures otherwise and drawinge theire sence to fauour thee Loe here the question in controuersie betweene Mr. Pilkinton and me Howe doth S. Chrisostome answere it doth he send vs to
the scriptures for decidinge thereof no such thinge but he geueth diuerse rules or markes whereby he that is in doubte whether parte to followe may iudge who hath the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures And after one or two rules he addeth this Vt autem manifestius dicam But that I may speake more plainlie they to witt heretikes haue certayne men of whom they are named for the sect is named of the author but wee to witt the catholikes haue not our name of anie man And a little after answeringe to the same question more fullie he addeth What are we cutt off from the church haue we Archeheretickes are we surnamed of anie man haue we a captayne anie particular man as these haue Marcion these Manicheus a thirde Arrius and other heresies haue theire sect masters As Lutherans haue Luther Caluinists haue Caluin and the like And though we haue the name of anie one â—et is is not of the father of anie heresie but of those who are our pastours and doe gouuerne the churche We haue not Maisters vppon Earth as all heretikes haue God forbidde we haue one in heauen Thou wilte say that they pretende the same But they haue a name that accuseth them and giueth them theire names Thus farr S. Chrisostome whereby it appeareth not onlie how impertinent or fraudulent Mr. Pilkinton is in his allegations but also of what moment the auncient fathers esteemed the argument taken from the surnames of sects for the discouerie of theire heresies and false doctrines PILK Loe in these cases wherein scriptures were produced on both sides the fathers fledd for resolution vnto other scriptures where it appeareth your inferrence to be without coherence that if there be not a iudge without the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saue mens soules seeinge that composinge of controuersies reconcilinge of differencies clearinge of doubtes manifestation of truth is not from without to be fetched but in the testament it selfe to be learned that we may knowe scriptures and them onlie to be the supreme iudge from whence decision of doubtes in matters of faith is to be deriued CHAMP Marke iudicious reader whether this be anie other thinge then that which I sayde in this section One chieâ—e ground of the prosestants doctrine to be that the wordes of the scripture are the iudge of all controuersies For the which Mr. Pilk hotly reprehendeth me of fraude and falsehodde See his wordes a little before at this marke †in the margent and maruell at his witt iudgment and memorie Nowe to the purpose Noe one of all the testimonies alleaged by you doth say that where scriptures are produced by both partes they are sufficient to decide the controuersie Thoughe I doe not denie but for the moste part the inequallity is so greate in the catholike partie as it also falleth out in the cause betweene the protestaÌ„ts and catholikes at this day that anie man of indifferent witt iudgment and desire to find out the truth may see on whether side the scripture standeth But that they are not absolutelie sufficient where there is obstinacie on anie side I shall make your selfe to coÌ„fesse thoughe peruerse enoughe or else I shall much marueill that by the verie example vsed by S. Optatus and S. Aug and approoued here by your selfe Put therefore the case that the children of a deceased father contend aboute the inheritance euerie one of them challenginge it as appertayninge to himselfe in proofe or confirmation of his clayme alleageth the testament and will of his father which he protesteth to be cleare for him and against his competitours beinge rightlie vnderstoode persisting most stifly in his opinion and in deffence of his right clayme as he is perswaded The case beinge putt thus which is the verie same with ours in the controuersy of religion will you say in the sinceritie of your hearte that the sole will or testament of the father is a sufficient iudge to decide this difference and to bringe the parties to an accorde And that there needeth not anie other iudge or arbiter to determine vppon the true sence and meaninge of the fathers will whereby they all pretende to make theire clayme and to grounde theire title you will not I thinke say yea to this question And well I wote that were the case your owne betwixte your selfe your bretheren concerninge a temporall inheritance experience which though shee be the mistres of fooles is not for all that a foolish mistres woulde teach you that it is a meere Paradoxe to maintayne that the sole testament of your deceased father could in this case decide the controuersie amongst you his disagreeinge children So that the example brought by your selfe out of the fathers is prooued to make manifestlie against you Which will yet be much more cleare if the case be putt as it is indeede with vs that these brethren doe not only contend aboute the true sence and meaninge of theire fathers testament but also aboute the testament it selfe the one contestinge the whole writinge contayned in the booke vnder the title of his will to be his true testament another not receiuinge the whole contendeth diuers partes and parcells not to belonge therunto And another yett reiectinge more as it falleth out betweene vs and the protestants Caluin castinge out of the testament of God fiue whole bookes besides some large partes of other bookes which the catholikes belieue to appertayn to his true testament Luther reiectinge besides these diuerse other whole bookes The case therefore beinge thus howe is it possible that the sole written testament of God shoulde decide the controuersie betweene these competitors and bring them to an accorde who doe not agree so much as in what bookes or writinges the testament is contayned so farre are they from beinge at accorde of the true sence and meaninge thereof It is therefore no other thinge to say in this case that the scriptures must iudge all controuersies then to say that the controuersie it selfe must be iudge of the controuersie which is more then madnes to thinke For the controuersie beinge not onlie what the scripture saith or meaneth but also what is scripture it is all one to say that scriptures must iudge and decide all controuersies and to say the controuersies themselues must decide all controuersies Againe seeinge you Mr. Pilkinton seeme to geue so much to holy scripture as to be able and sufficient to decide all doubtes and determine all differences in matter of faith Why doe you not hearken vnto them when they send you to the churche and to the pastours and doctours thereof as to liuelie iudges hauinge the keyes of knowledge to vnderstande the scriptures But you desiringe nothinge lesse then to come to a iust and competent tryall of your cause holde your selues close to that principle by which the most detestable vile and contemptible heretike that euer was may maintaine his heresie without beinge conuinced thereof as I toulde you
before of Legat which instance you can neuer answere not satisfy and which onlie is sufficient if you were not obstinatly peruerse to make you ashamed to maintaine so senceles a Paradox and so euidentlie contradicted by perpetuall experience in all ages Your last shifte or euasioÌ„ of interpretinge scripture by scripture vnles there be some agreement or certaintie of the scripture interpretinge more then of the scripture interpreted which abstractinge from the iudgmeÌ„t of the churche cannot be had is a meere mockerie and like as if a man would measure one peece of veluett the measure whereof is as vncertaine as that of the former And to conclude this section it beinge in question betweene the catholikes and protestants who is to be iudge of controuersies in faith yea the roote and key of all controuersies which beinge ended or decided all the rest would haue easie decision you affirminge the scriptures to be this iudge and pretend to prooue this by scripture as al other thinges to be beleeued you are bounde by your owne doctrine to shewe it out of scripture which when you shall doe we will yeelde vnto you in all the rest of the tontrouersies betweene vs. But seeinge you can neuer doe this why doe you not yeelde to vs shewinge you out of manifest scripture the authoritie of the churche to decide controuersies You say the church is a partie and therefore no competent iudge But this hauinge been the cauill of all condemned heretikes and as truly alleaged by them as by you this plea is no more receiueable in you then in them And tell me I pray you the kinge is he not partie in all pleas of felonie or treason that are brought into his courtes yes verilie And yett none euer yet thought of anie such plea as to appeale from the iudgment geuen in his name and by his soueraigne authoritie in such cases Albeit the iudgments geuen in his courtes are farr froÌ„ beinge so assuredly iuste equitable as are the iudgments of the church which hath the infallible promise of the holy ghostes assistance in her decisions and determinations You are therefore fast taken which way soeuer you turne your selfe and this inference of myne That if there be no other iudge of controuersies besides the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saâ—e mens soules which you say is without coherence doth nessarilie followe vppon that supposition that heretikes and namelie protestants doe produce scriptures in proofe of theire false doctrine as catholikes doe for theire orthodoxe beliefe if there be no other iudge to decide the controuersie but only the scripture which inference you haue laboured but all in vaine to ouerthrowe as the indifferent reader will easilie iudge MANVLL SECTION 6. Fiftlie that whereas before I can prooue anie point of Christian beleife by scriptures I should first by good order prooue that there is an holy scripture and secondlie in what bookes of the Bible it is contayned yet because neither of these two canne be prooued by scriptures vnlesse we beleeue some scripture without proofe therfore that I may prooue these pointes of faith wherein the Romane Catholicke churche doth differ from the protestants by holy scriptures which our aduersaries vrge me vnto I must necessarily to satisfy theire disorderlie desire proceede disorderlie and suppose that for truth without proofe which requireth most to be prooued I say without proofe if no proofe be good but that which is made out of scripture PILK All questions are not to be disputed of saith Aristotle but only those whereof man desireth a reason that is not worthie of punishment or lacketh sence For if anie demaunde whether God is to be worshipped or our parents to be loued he deserueth stripes or whether snowe be white he lacketh sence This question of yours whether the scripture be gods worde tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere CHAMP In the precedent question to auoyde the authority of the churches iudgment expreslie testified in the scriptures you laboured to maintaine this paradox that notwithstandinge scriptures were produced for either partie of anie controuersie yett the controuersie might be fullie ended and decided by the scriptures alone without anie other iudge decidinge or determininge whether partie vsed the true sence and meaninge of the same scriptures Nowe in this section to auoyde the Authoritie of TraditioÌ„s expreslie also taught in the scriptures you goe aboute to maintaine another paradox no lesse improbable to witt that it is so clearlie manifest not only that there is a written worde of God or holie scripture but also in what booke it is contayned that to moue question in either tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere lett vs see howe you make good this your paradox PILK But least you shoulde triumphe before the victorie I answere that as in all humane artes there be certain principles which are knowne of theÌ„selues without anie farther demoÌ„stration So the verties that are contained in the Cannon of the Bible are the principles foundations of diuinitie and receiue not authoritie by other thinges whereby they may be demonstrated saith Cameracensis CHAMP Ignorance in the rudimeÌ„ts of Philosophie maketh you abuse your tearmes egregiouslie For what principles of artes or sciences I pray you are those that are beleeued for themselues none certainlie For the principles of all naturall knowledge are either euidentlie knowne by the light of nature and not beleeued or they are beleeued for the authoritie of a higher knowledge and not beleeued for themselues The verities contayned in the Bible are beleeued not for themselues but for the authoritie of God reueilinge them who onlie is truth it selfe and beleeued for himselfe of whome and from whome they receiue authoritie and haue it not of themselues as you falselie affirme But you say they cannot be demonstrated by other principles It is true for â—â—â—e but the phreneticall or phanaticall Manicheis did desire or expecte demonstration in matter of faith Which as S. August saith is grounded vppon authoritie as knowledge is vppon reason we demaunde therefore of you some authoritie whereby we may reasonablie beleeue the verities contayned in the Bible to haue been reueiled by God without which authoritie we cannot securelie beleeue them to be gods worde PILK Then if the scriptures be principles as it is confessed on both sides it followeth that they are immediate indemonstrable as al other principles are in theire scieÌ„ces where of they are principles but these more theÌ„ others because they are primae veritatis And as the first good for it selfe is to be loued so the first truth for it selfe is to be beleeued saith Aquinas And therefore it is so farr from beinge requisit to prooue the scriptures that S. Aug. saith they are not to be hearde who shoulde say howe doost thou knowe these bookes to be ministred vnto mankinde by the spiritie of the onlie and most true God for this thinge is
especiallie to be beleeued Whereupon in another place speakinge of the faith wherewith we beleeue the scriptures he willeth vs to followe those who inuite vs first to beleeue that which we are not able to conceiue that beinge made more stroÌ„ge in faith we may attaine to vnderstande that which we beleeue God himselfe confirminge and inwardlie inligthenninge our mindes and not men This is sufficient to shewe that neither arte nor order requireth at your handes to prooue the scriptures as you disorderlie imagine CHAMP The scriptures or verities conteyned in them are confessed to be principles in respect of all Theologicall conclusions deduced from them and therefore in respect of them they neede no farther proofe to anie christian diuine that beleeueth them to be the worde of God But they are not principles in respect of the articles of our faith in generall but are themselues to be beleeued for the same authoritie of God reueylinge as all other articles of faith are And that they are not necessarie principles of the articles of our â—aith it is manifest by that before the scriptures were written the churche of God beleeued manie of the same articles which nowe it beleeueth Therfore when you say the scriptures or verities contained in them are primae veritatis if ignorance thoughe grosse and not to be excused in a doctour of diuinitie doth not excuse you you will make the scriptures not onlie to be gods worde but also to be God himselfe For besides him there is no prima veritas which is to be beleeued for it selfe as vppon better consideration I thinke you will not dare to denie Seeinge therefore the scriptures are not primae veritatis or first truthe but the testimonies wordes or verities reueiled by the first truthe they are not euen by your owne grounde to be beleeued for themselues but for the truthe and authoritie of the first veritie God himselfe of whose reuelation we must haue sufficient grounde before we canne securelie and prudentlie beleeue the scriptures to be his worde That which you bringe out of S. Thomas maketh euidentlie against you so iudicious are you in your allegations For the scriptures beinge not God they are not the first truth and therefore not to be beleeued for themselues S. Aug. in the first place maketh also against you sayinge that the scriptures are to be beleeued to bee of gods spiritt and not to be knowne For to beleeue this he recurreth not to the scriptures themselues but to the authoritie which they had obtayned throughe the whole worlde The second authoritie of S. Aug. is wholie impertinent to your purpose as the reader thoughe but of meane iudgmeÌ„t will easilie discerne Hee sayinge nothinge that soundeth as if the scriptures were to be beleeued for themselues or without other authoritie And therfore thus farr haue you saide nothinge that may satisfie this assertion of the Manuall that in the orderlie proceedinge in this present poincte the scriptures shoulde first be prooued but you will peraduenture satisfie better hereafter PILK Yett further to satisfy you I answere that the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue theÌ„selues and these and these bookes to be the scripture both by that inwarde light that is contained in them and that outwarde operation that they haue in vs. For first they are a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path a candle that shineth in a darke place And as a light doth discouer those thinges that are in darkenes and demonstrateth also it selfe vnto the eies saith Aug. so doth the holy scriptures by that connatur all light that is in them manifest themselues vnto those whose vnderstandinge is enlightened to behoulde them Which if you cannot perceiue desire God to remoue the scales from your eies as he did from Paules for this is a case so cleare that Stapleton graunteth it credenti scriptura seipsam probat commendat CHAMP All this proueth noe other thinge then that to christians and catholikes who belieue the scriptures to be the worde of God and vnderstand it in the sence of the churche they haue all these properties of light lampe and lanterne and this is it which Stapleton expreslie saith if hou had taken but verie ordinarie heede to his wordes But to say that either to a Pagan who beleeueth not the scriptures to be Gods worde or to an heretike who vnderstandeth them not in the sence of the churche but accordinge to his owne fancie they are such as doe manifest themselues to be the worde of God is a most sencelesse Paradox contradicted by manifest experience not onlie in Martin Luther and all his disciples who as you knowe reiect diuerse bookes receiued by Caluin and his followers but also of the auncient and holy fathers who did not vniuersallie receiue as Canonicall Scripture all such bookes of the newe testament as nowe are receiued by you And yett none of all these I suppose you will say wanted light to see that which is manifest of it selfe PILK Againe they are knowne by theire operation in vs for the worde of the Lorde is pure and conuerts the soule a two edged sworde Heb. 4. 12. a verie fierie worde psal 119. 14. which purifieth the soules inflameth the affections enlighteneth the vnderstandinge and so softeneth the heart of the hearer that it frameth it sitt to all goodnes Which noe other worde or worke deuised by the witt of men or Angells canne doe Where vppoÌ„ LactaÌ„tius speakinge of the differeÌ„ce betweene the doctrine of the gentills of the churche saith that the wisdome of the Philosophers doth not roote out vice but hide it whereas a fewe precepts of God so change the whole man and mould him a newe by castinge away the ould that one would not thinke him to be the same Geue me a man that is wrathfull euill tougued vnbridled by a fewe wordes of God I will make him meeke as a lambe Geue me a couetous auaritious and tenacious man I will restore him liberall and distributinge his money with his owne handes Geue me a man fearfull of sorrowe and death he shall contemne crosses fires dangers bulls c. By one lauer shall all malice be expelled such is the force of diuine wisdome that beinge powered into the brest of man it expelleth folly att one blowe that is the mother of all vices What man then that hath his hearte thus mollified his will rectified his vnderstandinge cleared and his whole course suddenlie altered can deliberatelie doubte of the scriptures seinge Christe himselfe teacheth vs thus to knowe them Is anie will performe the will of his father he shall knowe of the doctrine whether it be good or noe CHAMP In whome I pray you doth the scripture worke these effects you haue here so industriously numbred vp in those that beleeue them not to be true or to be the worde of God you will not say so I suppose Why doe you therefore bring these arguments to prooue the scriptures to be easily knowne to
be god worde that they are manifest of themselues and neede not to be prooued Because you will euer be impertinent not knowinge what you say nor what you shoulde prooue and yet are you so full of bable that you will still be be talkinge If one shoulde aske your aduise howe he might knowe good Phisicke and you shoulde say vnto him it is an easie thinge to knowe that For that phisike which coÌ„forteth nature expelleth disseases and restoreth health is certainlie good phisicke doe you thinke he shoulde be much wiser for your aduise whatsoeuer you thinke I knowe he shoulde be as wise as he was before Such is your directions to knowe the scripture vnto such as doe not alreadie knowe or beleeue them And seeinge our Sauiour himselfe prescribeth as a necessarie rule to knowe the scriptures the performance of his fathers will before his doctrine canne be vnderstoode as you well note but stil against your selfe it is euident that they are not so cleare of theÌ„selues nor yett so easie to be knowne as you pretend For that doctrine which must first be practised by humble obedience before it can be vnderstoode or knowne to be of God as our Sauiour saith of the scripture noe man that is not deuoyde of all iudgment wil say is easie to be knowne euen by it selfe PILK I might add all those arguments which both the fathers and schoolemen produce out of the scriptures themselues to prooue them the ofspringe of God which if they be stronge against gentiles I knowe not howe they should be weake against you vid. the maiestie of the doctrine the simplicitie and puritie of the stile antiquitie of the bookes truth of oracles and predictions that manie ages after held their complement with sundrie other to the like purpose but I passe by them and shutt vppe this pointe with that speeche of your Stewchus CHAMP You were well aduised to passe by all such arguments of the fathers and schoolemen as woulde nothinge serue your purpose I woulde you had been so aduised from the begininge for soe shoulde I not haue hadd the labour and paynes to transcribe so manie impertinencies of yours as I haue been forced to doe hitherto The arguments which you here mention taken by themselues are farr from makinge anie sufficient grounde to builde our faith vppon thoughe they are probable and prudent considerations and ioyned with the authoritie of the churche and tradition wherby â—e receiue the scriptures they are not without some force to persuade the bookes of the holy Bible to be gods worde and to be written by his inspiration But take you experience of them in your selfe and see whether they are sufficient to persuade that the bookes of Wisdome Ecclesiastious and the rest receiued generallie by the whole churche and namelie by the fathers and schoolemen whose authoritie here you seeme to vrge for canonicall are trulie gods worde and written by his holy spiritt And if you finde them not sufficient groundes for these why woulde you intrude them vppon vs as sufficient for the rest But lett vs heare what you bringe out of our Stewchus PILK They which thinke the authoritie of holy scriptures whereunto all the worlde nowe assenteth to depende vppon the readers faith and not to bringe with them certaine diuine and most potent reasons that drawe vnto them the iudgements of greate mindes are therefore deceiued because they are not of theire number whose mindes both by naturall goodnes and continuall exercitation of wisdome doe prudentlie apprehend the highest and truest thinges whereas if anie haue that wisedome geuen him to esteeme the greatnes of thinges as they deserue he shall feele the weight of diuine oracies to be so greate that the pronunciation of them onlie would suffice to begett a most firme and suddaine faith CHAMP The whole space of a thousand and fiue hundred yeeres geuen you to take your testimonies out of might haue sufficed without alleaginge of moderne writers and those oâ— small note and lesse authoritie Stewchus is an author not wholly receiued and the booke cited by you is put in the index of bookes to be amended or corrected and therefore the testimonie thereof thoughe it were otherwise most formall as it is not is of noe authority against vs. And truelie I wounder you are not ashamed to bring such stuffe for the proofe of your faith and doctrine And that in such sorte as you haue lett passe all other and made choyce of this as of moste strength and force Lett the iudicious reader nowe iudge by that which hath been sayde both by you and me whether the scriptures are so clearelie knowne by themselues and by theire owne light that they neede no other proofe to be gods worde and written by his spiritt And whether it he a needles or disorderlie thinge for him that pretendeth to prooue all the points of his faith by holy scripture to prooue first that there is a holie scripture and then to prooue in what bookes it is contayned And lastlie whether because you refusinge traditions and the churches authoritie by which onlie the holy scriptures are knowne cannot prooue the scriptures to be such and therefore receiuinge them vpon the credit of your owne fancie which consequentlie must be the fundamentall rule of your whole Faith doe not recurre to that shifte to say that the scriptures are so euident of themselues that they neede noe other proofe or testimonie but themselues MANVALL SECTION 7. And here occur by the way two thinges worthy of note The one that the scripture cannot be an vniuersall rule of our faith seeinge somethinges are to be beleeued without proofe of scripture as are for example that there is an holy scripture contayninge gods worde and reuelation and that these these bookes be such therefore of necessitie must there be some other rule of our faith more vniuersall then the scriptures and consequentlie before the scriptures And this cannot be but the authoritie of gods churche which is clearely S. August doctrine who was not a frayde to say I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the church doth moue me Seeinge therefore the authoritie of the churche is a sufficient motiue for vs to beleeue what is scripture why shoulde it not haue the like authoritie with vs in other points of faith which is also S. Aug argument in the same place but I will notwithstandinge satisfie our aduersaries in theire owne humour PILK Your former grounde beinge a bedd of sande that scriptures cannott be prooued by scriptures these conclusions that you doe builde vppon it doe of themselues fall to the grounde CHAMP When you shall followinge your principles proue out of the scripture either that there is a scripture or in what bookes it is contayned without supposinge some scripture without proofe then may you terme my grounde to be a bedd of sande and I will also beleeue it so to be But till then I will esteeme it a rock that
breaketh all your batteries like as if they were balls of sande caste against a brasen wall And therefore the conclusions built vppon it will neither of themselues nor yett by all your forces fall to the grounde but will stande firme and stronge PILK First that the scriptures are not the vniuersall rule of faith a position so derogatorie to the testament of Christ and so contrarie to the doctrine of the auncient churche that I wounder howe you durst venture vppon it For the rule whereunto nothinge must be added nothinge detracted is an vniuersall and persecte rule such is the scripture which is Aquinas collection â— Tim. 6. For if anie addition or detraction might be made in the scriptures they could not be the rule att all As in a rule saith Photicus if yee adde or diminishe any thinge yee corrupte the whole And a rule saith Theophilact neither hath augmentation nor diminution soe is it in the scriptures which Chrisostome termeth the most experte rule Canon and Gnomon that can be if it admitte anie supplie it coulde not be the rule at all And if we must not be wise in matters diuine aboue that which is written then that which is written is the rule of our wisdome and faith But S. Paule forbiddeth that ranknes of witt to enquire further then that which is written This S. Aug. collecteth out of this place The holy scripture doth prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith least we shoulde presume to be more wise then behoueth but as he saith let vs be wise vnto sobrietie as God hath diuided vnto euerie one the measure of faith Finallie if our faith doth lastlie resolue it selfe into the scriptures onlie then they alone are the rule and nothinge can be founde more vniuersall but this is graunted by your best diuines CHAMP Till it be prooued by expresse scripture that the scriptures are the vniuersall rule of our saith or that nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is prooued by scripture you cannot trulie say that my position is derogatorie to the Testament of Christ And because it can neuer be prooued by scripture that nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is prooued by expresse scripture your position is hereticall the contrarie thereof beinge clearelie testified by the scripture as shall appeare in the first and seconde controuersie vnto which places I will referr you for answere to your arguments which you there repeate as the more proper place Onlie I will not omitte to tell you here that you loose your creditt with al men by vtteringe such knowne vntruthes as that the best of our diuines doe graunte the â—ast resolution of our faith to â—ee into the scriptures onlie You shoulde haue named some one author att least to haue geuen creditt to your assertion PILK What then is the rule that is more vniuersall The authoritie of the churche say you Traditions saith Bellarmine the faith of the churche that is written in the heartes of the faithfull saith Stapleton soe friendlie doe the patrons of this errour accorde as if that curse wherewith God threatned the EgiptiaÌ„s had falleÌ„ vpon them I wil sett Egiptians against EgiptiaÌ„s they shal fight euerie one against his neighbour For if the authoritie of the churche doth make vppe the rule traditioÌ„s doe not beinge two thinges as different as the fountaine the streame the fruite and the tree For traditions flowe from the authoritie of the churche saith Stapleton Authoritie of the churche is the churches testimonie tradition is doctrine not a testimonie onlie This therefore is neither a more vniuersall rule nor yet before it which is your seconde conclusion and which if it were true the churche shoulde be summa prima veritas for that for which we must beleeue the Ghospell and it for it selfe is the highest and first truth but you papists say so of the churche therefore you haue deiâ—yed and changed it into the deitie and so made it of Bethâ—â—â—â— and house of God to be Bethanan the house of iniquitie CHAMP There is as much diuersitie or discorde betweene all these sayinges of ours as a goode Logician would finde betweene viuens â—enâ—â—â—ns 〈◊〉 inâ—eâ—â—â—â—ns which being â—ubalterna are not in anie mans brayne disparaâ—a or opposita vnles in yours which is often contrarie to it selfe Both tradtions therefore and the authority of the churche are more vniuersal rules theÌ„ the scriptures And thoughe the one of them is more vniuersall and before the other yet neither of them is summa or prima veritas as you most ignorantlie affirme in the precedent section of the scriptures for the which intollerable ignorance you are iustlie reprehended there nor either of them is beleeued for it selfe but for the testimonie of God reuelinge theire veritie who onlie is beleeued for himselfe and his owne essentiall truth and veritie And therefore your childishe inference of changinge Bethell into Bethanan is a ridiculous conclusion of your owne ignorant premisses or a dreame of your owne idle and emptie braine But you will bringe more solid stuffe hereafter lett vs heare the rest PILK Besides if it be demaunded from whence the churche hath anâ—e such authoritie it is answered from the scriptures for which are produced sundrie testimonies He that heareth you heareth me Goe teach all nations If then the life of this authoritie be maintayned and supported by the scriptures they are the rule and measure of her and so before her and not reciprocalliâ— measured by her CHAMP When it is demanded by such as pretend to beleeue the scriptures as you make shewe to doe and yett deny the churches Authoritie as you heretically doe what proofe there is of the churches authority the scriptures are rightlie produced for the proofe thereof not that thee hath her authoritie from the scriptures as you either ignorantlie or negligentlie say for her authoritie she hath from God The authour of all power and authoritie but that this authoritie iâ— testified by the scripture And maruell it is to me that you your selfe findinge and feelinge such testimonie of holy scripture for the churches authoritie as you cite in this place doe not yett cease to impugne it But the truth is you beleeue and follow the scriptures so farr as your selfe list onlie and noe farther On the other side when it is demaunded by such as belieue neither scriptures nor the churche but yett seeke some groundes of christian beliefe it woulde be a ridiculous thinge to prooue the church by the scriptures seinge they are written taught and preached by the ministrie of meÌ„ whereof the church consisteth and did consist many hundreds of yeeres before there were anie scriptures att all In this case therefor it is cleare that the church hath other proofe then from the scriptures and before the scriptures which in that case must be prooued by the churche But what this proofe is and whence it is taken pertayneth not to this place to say Yet whatsoeuer it
be it is manifest that in this case the proofe knowledg of the church must goe before the proofe and knowledge of the scriptures as beinge before it and leadinge vnto it and not the contrarie PILK This is yett more cleare by the verie proposition graunted by Papists that the scripture is the rule whereof the sence is that the sence and doctrine not the letters and characters are this rule Nowe lett our aduersaries iudge whether is more auncient the doctrine of the church which is the seede of the churche or the church which is begotten of it CHAMP You either ignorantlie mistake or wilfullie inuert the question which is not whether the holy scriptures be a rule of faith which noe christian denieth but whether it be the first and most vniuersall rule thereof And this none but heretikes that denie the authoritie of the churche and veritie of traditions both which notwithstandinge are expresselie testified by holy scripture did euer affirme And whether the church be more auncieÌ„t then the scriptures if you doubte as you seeme to doe yea and to affirme the contrarie I shall esteeme you either very senceles or verie wilfull and peâ—uers the scriptures hauinge been written by the churche vnles peraduenture by the scriptures or doctrine of the scriptures you vnderstande the worde of God written in the hearts of men by the immediate reuelation of the holy Ghost and by them deliuered by worde of mouth the one to the other vntill Moises who was the first that euer committed anie thinge to writinge If you take the scriptures in this sence that which you meane is true and if further you acknowledge the authoritie of the churche and veritie of Tradition in deliueringe this doctrine and teachinge it one to another by worde of mouth before it was written our controuersie is at an end The authoritie of the churche and traditions being euidentlie prooued to goe before the scriptures and consequentlie to be a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures PILK So that as your first conclusion is a manifest vntruth that there is a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures So the second is a dull and heauie conceipt that the churche shoulde be more auncient and before them CHAMP If either my first conclusion as you tearme it be a manifest vntruth or my second a dull coÌ„ceipt why doe you doombelie denie it without anie proofe or reason att all Especiallie seinge I prooued the first by cleare instance as you may see and the seconde is but a sequell or necessarie deduction of the first If it be enough for you to say that your aduersaries conclusions thoughe prooued by manifest instance are manifest vntruthes you may well hope to carrie away the bucklers from a farr greater clerke then euer I shall pretende to be For you knowe that Aristotles asse is able to denie more then his mayster is able to prooue PILK Peruse the fathers in whose workes you seeme to be conuersant and nominate one that hath taught either that the authoritie of the churche is a more vniuersall rule or that she was before theire doctrine which are the two cheefest stoopes of your religion whereas in them I finde that the scriptures is the rule and they nominate nothinge else CHAMP If you had weighed S. Aug testimonie which the manuall setteth downe in this place and which you vainlie strugle to auoyde with equall iudgment you woulde not haue putte me to further search of the fathers for proofe of that which I say You shall either deliuer your selfe better from S. Aug authoritie then here you haue donne or else you shall be forced to swallowe it downe as a bitter but a wholsome pill against your heresie Neither will I take the taxe at your hande to searche further the fathers for this purpose till I see this one better satisfied And you fight against your owne shaddowe when you labour to prooue by the fathers that the scriptures are a rule of our faith your aduersaries denyinge it not as I toulde you before But you loue to shewe your strength when none resisteth you And that the fathers nominate no other rule is as true as the rest of your sayinges For seeinge they auouch so plainlie and frequentlie traditions and the churches authoritie as you knowe they doe howe canne you say that they name noe other rule PILK The Ecclesiasticall rule is the consent and conspiration of the old and newe testament saith Clemens The holy scripture doth prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith saith S. Aug. CHAMP I knowe not whether I shoulde attribute the citinge of this authoritie out of Clemens to your ignoraunce or to your fraude and desire to deceiue by it your reader it is so impertinent to your purpose He sayinge onlie that it is the Ecclesiasticall rule of interpretinge scriptures to make the prophetts and lawe to accorde with the testament of our Sauiour Christ Which what it maketh to prooue the scriptures to be the sole rule of faith I cannot conceiue S. Aug. you cite so at large that I knowe not where to look for the place by you alleaged to see whether it be not as pertinentlie alleaged as the other is And seinge the scriptures doe send vs to our pastours to learne our faith and to the churche commandinge vs to heare it it may well be sayde to prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith and yett exclude not the churches authoritie for the which we nowe contende So that this place is as fitt for your purpose as the other PILK The churche goeth not out of her boundes that is the holy scriptures saith Ierome And least you might thinke it is the rule but not the onlie rule Vincentius addeth the sole rule of the scriptures is sufficient to all thinges CHAMP The churche followinge the authoritie of tradition and the iudgment of the churche in all matters of saith and manners which the scriptures doe expresslie geue testimonie and warrant vnto doth not goe out of the boundes of the scriptures In citinge Vincentius you vse your accustomed fraude leauinge out the wordes goinge before Which are so expresslie against your purpose that had you sett them downe they had been sufficient to confute your errours in this pointe they are these We haue sayde before haâ— this alwayes hath been and is also at this day the custome of Catholikes to prooue the truth of fayth by these two meanes First by the authoritie of diuine Canon then by tradition of the Catholike churche not because the Canon alone is not sufficient of it selfe to all thinges but c. Now lett the iudicious reader iudge whether this holy father make the scriptures the sole rule of faith or noe When he saith the sacred Canon is sufficient to all thinges he meaneth that it is sufficient to al thinges that is necessarie to euerie mans saluation or to euerie man to beleeue For these thinges are not many and sufficientlie
more subiect to errour nowe then shee was at that tyme. Therfore that which Driedo saith is that the primatiue churche by reason of the colledge of the Apostles had power to deliuer newe doctrine of faith which the succedinge church hath not but hath infallible authoritie to teache that faith which shee receaued of the Apostles And this you might easilie haue seene to haue been Driedoes Doctrine if you had taken but anie ordinarie heede to his wordes PILK Neuertheles to passe by this to graunte that S. Augustin a Catholicke and a Bishoppe woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him is euerie motiue to beleeue a rule of faith Nothinge lesse For the rule is that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued which is not into the authoritie of the churche as your best diuines teach but into the scriptures CHAMP You might well haue past by all this indeede and also that which followeth had you not rather chosen to fil your paper with your impertinencies to the publishinge of your owne small iudgement If you take the rule of â—aith so strictlie as it contayneth onlie that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued you will make onlie God reuelinge his verities to be the rule of faith and then you must exclude not onlie the churche but the scriptures also But if you take it for a true ground of beleefe then that testimonie which so moueth to faith as it ingendreth faith in vs may trulie be sayde to be a rule of faith such a motiue S. Aug saith the churche is PILK And there vppon Cameracensis speakinge of this place of S. Aug saith that it proueth not that he beleeued the gospell thoroughe the churches authoritie as by a Theologicall principle whereby the gospell might be prooued true but onlie as by a cause mouinge him to creditt it as if he shoulde say I woulde not beleeue the gospell vnles the holynes of the churche or Christes miracles did moue me In which sayinge thoughe some cause of his beleeuinge be assigned yet no former principle is touched whose creditt might be the cause why the gospell shoulde be beleeued CHAMP It appeareth well you vnderstande not what Cameracensis saith or else that you care not what you say so that you say somethinge He saith the scriptures are not prooued by the authority of the churche as by a Theologicall principle or argument ab intrinseco but as a motiue from authority or ab extrinseco which is that all men say and which I only desire to prooue by S. Augustines testimonie For if the church be a motiue to beleeue the scriptures it must necessarilie be before the scriptures and consequentlie be a more vniuersall rule cause or motiue of faith and beleefe then the scriptures PILK Bellarmine saith that S. Aug. speaketh these wordes of the authoritie of the churche as of a cause propoundinge what is to be beleeued and not of the foundation of faith But the proposition of the churche is not the rule and resolution of faith but onlie a condition requisite of beleeuinge as Valent. teacheth in 22. tom 3. de obiecto fidei CHAMP It is a most irkesome and importunate thinge to haue to doe with with an ignorant aduersarie that knoweth not what he shoulde either prooue or denie Such an one you shewe your selfe to be For if you take from the scripture which you trulie teache to be a rule of our faith the authoritie to propose manifest and testify articles of beleefe see howe you will make it a rule of faith Seeinge therefore you geue to the churche these thinges without which the scriptures are not a rule of faith why should you deny it to be also a rule of faith But the churche you say is not the foundation or resolution of faith I speake in your owne phrase thoughe improperlie that you may vnderstande and therfore is it not anie rule thereof If this argument conclude anie thinge it will also prooue the scriptures to be noe rule of faith For it is neither foundation nor resolution of faith if you vnderstande the first and chiefe foundation or last resolution as I tould you before vnles you will make it to be God himselfe But if you take foundation for that which doth grounde our faith in a certaine and sure kinde of infallible testimonie in which sence al men speake that knowe what they speake theÌ„ are both the scriptures and the churche also foundations and groundes of our faith PILK And surelie if S. Aug had meant that the authoritie of the churche had beene this rule which is your inference he had excluded all other rules For he that saith I would not beleeue excepte the authoritie of the churche moued me establisheth one cause remoueth the rest But this none of you dare accorde vnto is as farr from S. Aug. meaninge as your next wordes are from truth If therefore the authoritie of the churche be a sufficient motiue for a motiue it is which none of vs euer denyed but that it is a sufficient motiue neither canne you prooue nor yett S. August anie where auoucheth CHAMP S. Aug. wordes which are to be beleeued before your bare negation are most cleare that without the testimonie or authoritie of the churche he hadd not beleeued the Gospell and consequentlie that the churche was cause rule and motiue of his beleefe not in that degree that God is the rule or foundation of our faith for so we shoulde make S Aug. as sencelesse as Mr. Pilkinton but in the like kinde or degree that the scriptures are but yett before the scriptures because he beleeued them for the churches authoritie And therefore you see S. Aug. to say that which the Manuall saith that there is some other rule of faith before and more vniuersall then the scriptures seeinge that for it and by it the scriptures are beleeued MANVALL SECTIO 8. The second thinge to be noted is that they which beleeue nothinge but that which is prooued by scripture are euidentlie conuinced to beleeue nothinge at all For they that cannott beleeue that there is an holy scripture or what bookes be holy scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture for it is euident that before they beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture they must first beleeue that there is a holy scripture and what bookes are scripture But they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannot beleeue that there is a scripture nor what bookes are holy scripture For neither of these two canne be prooued by holy scripture Therefore they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge att all This argument is a playne demonstration and compelleth the protestants either to confesse that they haue noe faith att all or to acknowledge this their position to witt that nothinge ought or can rightlie be beleeued but that which may be prooued
by scripture to acknowledge I say this position to be false which notwithstandinge is one mayne grounde of all theire religion PILK When a souldier that killed Marius came to cutt of his head he drewe out his sworde and told him hie est gladius quem ipse fecisti for Marius formerlie had been a cutter The groundes that you haue layde cutt the throate of your faith but raseth not the skinne of the protestants For I haue shewed before that scriptures doe sufficiently prooue themselues to be the worde of God and these and these bookes to be such whereon it followeth your conuincinge demonstration that protestants beleeue nothinge att all to be a windy friuoulous discourse whereas such conclusions may be drawne from your principles as will prooue vulnera in capite canis you will not easilie licke them hole CHAMP Remoue the sworde first from your owne throate whiâ—hâ—â— presseth to harde and after may you atteÌ„pt to pietie your aduersarie with it You haue hitherto made a 〈…〉 able shewe of anie proofe but of your owne in reâ—lible ignorance and impertinencie ioyned with wilfull stande to deâ—eâ—â—e your reader If you defend your proâ—estaâ—â—s no better then hitherto you â—â—â—ue they will be euidentlie concluded to belieue nothinge att all by the argument proposed which 〈…〉 e you cannott tell where to begin to solue oâ— anâ—weâ—e you make a Thrasonicall and glorious shâ—we of contempt of it as manie of yours 〈◊〉 and 〈…〉 elie your grand maister Calluine when 〈…〉 most prest and hath least to say for himselfe Are you nâ—â— ashamed to lett myne argument stand as a â—â—â—phey against you your heresie without saying one worde in answere of it idlie supposinge that you haue sayde somethinge to it before But seeinge you dare not sett vppon mine argument to satisfi it which you should first haue donne lett vs see what incurable woundes you geue vnto me out of myne owne principles PILK For they that relie theire faith vppon humane testimonies originallie are conuinced to haue no faith att all for faith commeth by hearinge and hearinge by the worde of God But you papists relie your faith vppon humane testimonies originallie when you ground it on the authoritie of the churche which you say is a more vniuersall rule and more auncient then the scriptures Now then make the conclusion as pleaseth you CHAMP I graunte your proposition or maior and deny your minor For where learned you to terme the authoritie of the churche humane testimonie seeinge the holy ghost stileth the churche the house of God the piller and grounde of truth your conclusion therefore is blowne away like a fether So that the wounde which you thought woulde prooue so grieuous is not so much as the blowe of a litle childe Spitt therefore vppon your handes take better hold and strike more manfullie or else geue your bill to another But so hoodewinkt you are either with ignorance or malice that strikinge at your aduersarie you hitt your selfe For whilst you say with S. Paule that faith commeth by hearinge hearinge by the worde of God you prooue that the scripture or the word written which is not hearde but reade is not the first meanes of our saith but the worde of God preached as S. Paule sayth in the same place which was before the scriptures PILK From hence commeth all this warr that we will not grounde our faith vppon the totteringe wall of humane authoritie as you doe but cleaue fast to the sacred scriptures beleeuinge nothinge as Paule taught but that which was written in Moises and the prophetts which we reioyce to haue made the meane grounde of our religion CHAMP A stoute Champion I wisse that after the first blowe and that a verie weake one casteth downe his armes and thinkinge to ouerthrowe his aduersarie with wordes falleth to raylinge as if he hoped to gaine the victorie rather by his stinkinge breath then by strength of hande stroakes You hauing been att the schoole of the father of all falsehoode haue learned to call the churche of God and the infallible authoritie thereof the totteringe wall of humane authoritie which the holy ghoste by the mouth of this Apostle stileth the piller and ground of truth wherby as by manie other passages you shewe what honour and respect you beare vnto the holy scriptures seeinge you dare so disdainfullie debase the house of God which they so highelie prise and extoll You farther glorie in that you beleeue nothinge but which is written in Moises and the prophettes whereby you prooue your selfe to be a Iewe and no Christian Either retract this Iewishe proposition of yours or blotte out of your Bibles the whole newe testament that you may be knowne to be noe Christian and that you may fill vppe the measure of your grande mayster Martin Luther who hath longe since cast out diuers bookes out of the newe testament besides those he hath reiected out of the oulde You seeme to father this your fowle doctrine vppon S. Paule thoughe you dayne him not the honour of S. Paule but why doe you not poynte att the place where he teacheth it If S. Paule had been of this minde that you woulde seeme to make him of in vayne did he write his Epistells in vayne did the rest of the Apostles and Euangelists write theire workes Againe suppose S. Paule had written anie such thinge in his letters or Epistles howe woulde you make anie man beleeue that Epistle to be his and therefore to be canonicall scriptures vnlesse you will vse the authoritie of tradition and the churches testimonie All the witt and cunning you haue yea thoughe you borrowed all that of the rest of the ministers in the worlde will not shape a sufficient answere to this question PILK And which if we coulde not prooue yett canne we not be conuinced to haue noe faith because they are principles against which none dare open his mouth that anie way woulde haue himselfe to be counted a Christian as S. Aug. spake For as other artes and sciences are sufficientlie knowne credited without proofe of theire principles so matters diuine are perfectlie and demonstratiuelie persuaded vnto vs from this indemonstrable principle of the holy scriptures saith Clemens and are not prooued by iudgment but comprehended by faith CHAMP Why doe you say which iâ— we coulde not prooue as thoughe you had some meane to prooue it without traditions and the churches authoritie But they are principle you say and therefore not to be prooued The scriptures are principles of faith in deede in a certayne degree but they are not prime principles which onlie are to be beleeued for themselues without anie further proofe vnles as I toulde you before you will make them to be God who onlie is to be beleeued for his owne proper veritie and all other verities for him And when you say out of S. Aug. that none dare open their mouth against them that will be counted a
christian I woulde aâ—ke you what you esteeme of your father in reformation Martin Luther whome some of his disciples as you knowe stile the seconde Elias the fifte Euangelist the second or thirde person in heauen after Christe who with a greate troope of his schollers doth not onlie open his mouth to call into question diuers of the Apostles writinges but absolutelie casteth them out of the Canon will you censure him to be noe christian if you doe you shall be a cursed childe of a more cursed father Yea what will you thinke of your selfe and all the rest of your crewe who cast out of the Canon so manie of those bookes which S. Aug. whose authoritie you cite alwayes esteemed to be canonicall scripture See whether you haue not pronounced sentence with your owne mouth against your selfe and condemned your selfe to be noe Christian If you shoulde eate noe bread till you quitt your selfe of this indictment I dare vndertake to finde you bread for sixe pence so longe as you liue Howsoeuer hereby at least it is cleare that the scriptures are not such principles of our faith as beinge not prooued to be written by the holy Ghost may be doubted of and therefore necessarilie require to be sufficientlie prooued before they can be groundes of other articles of our faith WheÌ„ you or anie for you shall solue this argument I shall esteeme you not vnworthy of a doctours cap. S. Aug. hath good reason to say that no Christian dare to open his mouth against the scriptures receiued by the catholicke churche For so shoulde he be worthyly esteemed as a publican and heathen by the testimonie of our Sauiour Christ himselfe And therfore is Luther and Caluine with theire viperous generation worthilie censured as heretikes thoughe they had no other errours but that of reiectinge with obstinacie the canonicall scriptures That which you bringe out of Clemens were it as you sett it downe is nothinge to your purpose For we knowe the scriptures to be indemonstrable by reason but yett to be prooued by authoritie as all other articles of fayth are And nowe looke ouer once more your cardes and weigh well with your selfe whether this proposition admitted for true which is one of your principles That nothinge is to be beleeued that is not prooued by scriptures whether I say the Manuall doth not directlie conuince the protestants who professe that they cannot prooue the scriptures to be scriptures to beleeue nothinge at all MANVALL SECTION 9. But nowe hauinge shewed the absurditie of theire doctrine in this point I will ioyne with them in the scriptures as they themselues doe desire obseruinge this methode First I sett downe the Catholicke Romane beleefe in direct and plaine positions then I bringe in proofe of it one two or more places of holy scriptures citinge the auncient vulgar translation and often tymes I add the testimonie of some auncieÌ„t father of the first fiue hundreth yeeres vnderstandinge such scriptures as I cite in the same sence and meaninge that I cite them for Furthermore those fewe places of scripture which seeme to sounde directlie against the catholicke faith I shewe in breefe howe they are to be vnderstoode And last of all I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholicke doctrine to the end that the indifferent reader be he catholicke or otherwise may more easily iudge whether doctrine hath better grounde in holy scriptures And further that he that will impugne this treatise may see what he hath to prooue if he will prooue anie thinge to purpose PILK Zebull iudged men to be shadowes of mountaines and you Christian verities nouell absurdities But as Nicomachus the painter answered a skilfull felowe that iudged the picture of Helen drawne by Zeuxes not to be beautifull take myne eyes saith he thou wilt thâ—nke her to be a goddesse So if you looke with spiritual eies you woulde easilie conceiue them to be diuine verities which you imagine to be palbable absurdities For lacke whereof you proceede to beate your aduersaries with theire owne weapons of holy scriptures and you tell them howe you will marshall your forces CHAMP Zebull if you say true imagined men to be shaddowes and you contrariwise imagine shaddowes to be men I doubt not but if I shoulde take your eies to looke vppon your worke I shoulde thinke as you doe a â—rogge to be as faire as Diana You say I proceede to beate my aduersaries with their owne weapons But the scriptures are not mine aduersaries weapons but as they steale them to impugne the truth with as theeues doe true mens weapons PILK First you will sett downe your saith in direct positions and that you haue donne as streight as a Rams horne CHAMP Marke you the crookednes and discouerit that others may see it besides your selfe PILK Secondly you will prooue it by holy scriptures which you cite to as good purpose as the deuill did against Christ. CHAMP Note you the impertinencies when they occurre and discouer them that other men may see them as well as your selfe PILK Thirdlie you will produce them in the auncient vulgar translation no maruell for that hangeth betweene the greeke and the Hebrue as Christ did betweene the two theeues in your friendes opinion whereas it hath been the Cameryne that hath vented from it manie of your errours Hence you haue marriage to be a Sacrament because your translation readeth magnum hoc SacramentuÌ„ and in greeke it is Mysterion Hence almes to be meritorious because huiusmodi sacrificijs promeritur Deus and in the greeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hence definitions of councels to proceede froÌ„ the holy ghost because in this corrupte false version it is read the holy spiritt shall suggest vnto you all thinges that I will say whereas it is in the originall that I haue sayde Infinite almost are the additions detractions deprauations wherewith this sweet translation of yours hath corrupted the fountaynes That Isodore Clarius woundered at the negligence of learned men that haue not purged it from these inumerable errours wherewith it swarmeth and wherein himselfe had obserued and rectified eight thousande places and yett this is the apparrell wherein you will sett before vs the holy scriptures CHAMP Take you here the counsell the painter gaue to the vnskilfull censurer of Zeuxis worke which you spake of not farr before and looke vppon the vulgar translation with S. Ambrose S. Aug. S Hierome and S. Gregories eyes with the rest of all the Latine fathers who liued a thousande yeeres before your heresie was hatched whose iudgments are of more authoritie then manie Clarius and you will finde it to be intire perfect and good Your exceptions against it with manie moe are alreadie answered by Bellarmine which answeres shall stande for good till you confute them This is all your learning to repeate olde ouerworne obiections and to conceale their answeres a greate peece of witt I wisse PILK Fowerthlie you will adde the testimonie of some
auncient father whome neuerthelesse you regarde no further then you canne make them speake your language which if they doe not you canne shaue theire lockes and scrape theire tounges and make them pronounce Siboleth for Shiboleth as your purginge indexes doe proclayme vnto the worlde CHAMP This arte of shauinge and scrapinge I leaue to you and yours who are so accustomed thereunto that they cannot deale otherwise Your industrie in this kinde hath been sufficientlie shewed in the fewe precedent pages Our Indexes doe not corrupt the fathers wordes and sentences as you foolishlie or maliciouslie insinuate but they note plainlie the faults of later writers which plaine and open dealinge if you would vse no fault would be found with you PILK Fiftlie you will answere these scriptures which seeme to contradict your faith Then if the same right beloÌ„ge to Accius that is to Titius you will afforde your aduersarie the like libertie CHAMP You are not prohibited to vse it to your best and moste aduantage PILK Sixtlie you will sett downe the contradictory positions that the reader may iudge and the answerer finde what he hath to prooue if he will prooue anie thinge to the purpose But some of these positions you haue deuised out of your owne brayne which noe protestant euer allowed and so you fight with your owne shadowe and then triumph as Tereus the poet Vicimus exclamat mecum mea vota feruntur CHAMP You haue your answere to this in the refutation of your rolle of forged positions Looke backe thither and see whether you or I may be sayde to be deuisers or forgers of false positions MANVALL SECTION 10. Who is to vnderstande that though the protestants doe maintayne the negatiue parte in almost all the positions contiouerted betweene them and the catholikes yet is he not for all that not to be excused from the proofe of those points vnlesse he will withall confesse that in theÌ„ the protestants haue no faith at all but onlie a meere denyall of faith For faith beinge not a simple denyinge or not beleeuinge but a positiue assent and beleefe of such articles as are reuealed vnto vs by God it hath positiue groundes whereby it may and ought to be prooued euen in those points which are negatiue And therefore as catholikes doe prooue theire faith in these negatiue pointes that onlie faith doth not iustifie that we are not certaine of our iustification or saluation and the like So likewise are the protestants to prooue theire faith in these that there is no purgatorie no reall presence no sacrifice of the Masse and the rest vnles as is sayde before they will coÌ„fesse that they haue no fayth in these points but onlie a meere deniall of faith For it is a farre different thinge not to beleeue purgatorie to be for example and to beleeue purgatory not to be The first being a meeâ—e negatiue or deniall of anie act of faith the secoÌ„d beinge a positiue act of faith of a negatiue obiect Hauinge thus aduertised the good reader of these fewe thinges I leaue thee to peruse the treatise it selfe desiringe thee to expect onlie the bare positions prooued with the selfe text of holy scripture and some fewe fathers without anie flourishe of wordes att all The worke beinge such as it doth rather resemble the bones of a great bodie tyed together with dryed sinewes then a body througlie furnished with fleshe and other habiliments of friendlie nature For which cause thoughe to such as rather respect fashion then substance it may happe to appeare hideous yett to others of contrarie appetite for whose contentment it is speciallie intended it will not peraduenture be iudged altogether without forme PILK If non credimus quia non legimus bea sufficient argument as both the scriptures and the fathers teach vs we shall with noe great difficultie prooue our faith as well in the negatiue as in the affirmatiue CHAMP Non credimus quia non legimus is not a sufficient argument of faith but in such points only as are prooued neither by tradition nor by scripture of which sorte was the heresie of Heluidius denyinge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed virgin which falsitie beinge contrarie to the receiued tradition of the whole church not prooued by holy scripture was sufficientlie refuted by S. Hierome sayinge non credimus quia non legimus Which saying is not any argument for the deniall of such articles of faith as are proued either by scripture or traditions much lesse for them that are proued by bothe PILK For S. Paule proouinge Christe to be aboue the angells in regarde of his originall that he is the sonne of God Heb. 1. 5. and in regarde of his maiestie that he sitteth at his right hande verse 13. taketh his argument from the scriptures negatiuelie To none of the Angells he sayde c. CHAMP S. Paule taketh not his negatiue argument from the scriptures onlie but absolutly from all diuine testimonie sayinge Cui Angeloruâ— dâ—â—â— Or if you will haue S. Paule to argue out of the scriptures only tell me out of what scripture he concludeth this Nonne omnes suns administratoris spiritus in ministerium missi propter eoâ— oui hereditatem caâ—iunâ— salutis vnles you will suppose that for graunted vnto you which is in controuersie to wit that there iâ— no other diuine testimonie but that which is written this instance of S. Paules argument serueth you for nothinge PILK S. August often chargeth the Donatists to prooue theire churche out of the scripture and he will beleeue if not he will reiect them speciallie in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae if they cannott saith he reade these thinges in the scripture but persuade them by their contentioÌ„s I will beleeue those thinges that are written in the scriptures I beleeue not those thinges that are spoken by vaine heretikes I receiue not that which from without the scripture saith Tertullian thou producest of thyne owne without the scriptures our sences or expositions haue no creditt saith Origen Who will speake when the holy scriptures speake not saith Ambrose Many saith Hierome thinke Zacharie to be the Father of Iohn and that he was slayne because he preached the comminge of Christe This thinge because it hath no authoritie from scripture is with like facilitie contemned as it is prooued CHAMP All these sayinges of the fathers howe trulie soeuer cited which I will not stande heere to examine doe prooue if they prooue anie thinge that you are bound to produce positiue testimonies out of the scriptures for your negatiue faith if you will be thought to haue anie faith att all in them and not a meere denyall or negation of faith For you must vnderstande that it is one thinge to beleeue that there is noe purgatorie for example and another thinge not to beleeue that there is a purgatorie The first beinge a positiue act of faith requiringe also a positiue testimonie and reuelation of God thoughe of a negatiue article
the other is a mere denyall or negation of faith of a positiue article and is as well in horses or asses as in men onlie with this difference that men are capable and may haue the contrarie positiue act but horses and asses cannot If your faith therefore of the negatiue articles which you houlde be of the first kinde you are bounde to prooue it by positiue testimonie of holy scripture If it be onlie of the second kinde then haue you no more faith in these articles then haue horses asses or other brute beastes Nowe to the fathers testimonies so farr as they may seeme to make anie thinge against the catholicke doctrine of traditions or the churches authoritie I answere supposinge they sounde as you sett them downe which I will not stande to examine here that whatsoeuer is prooued by traditions or the churches iudgment is warranted by the scripture which geueth testimonie to the churche and traditions Which answere is S. August lib. 1. cont Crescon cap. 33. PILK Therefore concerninge the profe of our faith in the negatiue points of purgatorie Reall presence Sacrifice of the Masse sith there is noe footinge for them in the worde of God we answere with Basill that it is not faith but a manifest defection from faith to denie that which is written or to bringe in anie thinge that is not written where as Christ IESVS our Lorde saith my sheepe heare my voice CHAMP The iudicious reader shal be iudge whether these catholike articles haue not much faster footinge in the holy scriptures then your contiarie negatiues Neither doth S. Basill anie wayes fauour you For he confirminge his sayinge with these wordes of our Sauiour my sheepe heare my voyce excludeth not that worde of our Sauiour which is more properlie his worde then the scripture For he sayth not my scriptures but my sheepe heare my voyce therfore he speaketh of the voyce as it is deliuered by worde and not as it is written PILK And yett to satisfy you we shall finde sufficient weapons out of the scriptures to lay these Anekims on the grounde Nowe as the Roman Emperour that meant to subdue Germanie brought out his armie and put them in aray vppon the sea shoore and presentlie charged them to gather shelles tellinge them that they were spoyles of the Ocean due to the capitoll So you hauinge marshalled your forces and putt them in order tell your reader that the whole body of them is but a Scheleton bare bones tyed together with drye Sinewes and then without question you will attaine a glorious victorie and bringe spoyles fitt for the vaticane Yet you doubt not but your treatise will please some mens appetite and I am of your minde for like lippes like lettuce Thus from your prolusion I come to your mayne battaille which thus you beginne CHAMP What sharpe weapons you wil finde in the scriptures for your negatiue faith or no beleefe I will with patience expect and hauinge with all indifferencie pondered them I will tell you with all sinceritie what weight they are of in my iudgment In the meane tyme I must tel you that your conclusion seemeth to me as litle wittie as all the rest of your discourse is learned and therfore findinge by the litle experience I haue of you that such lettuce sute well with your lippes I leaue them wholy to your selfe Manuall The first controuersie It is knowne that the catholike Roman churche doth admitte more bookes and parcelles of holy Bible for scripture then the protestants doe and consâ—quently acknowledge a larger Canon then they and yett notwithstandinge shee teacheth PILK The Grecians are euer children rightlie fitteth you Romanists that still lispe like littell children and excellentlie speake without sence For to say the catholike Romane church is as good sence as the vniuersall particular churche CHAMP It is your dull vnderstandinge and not our lisping language that maketh these wordes the Catholicke Roman â—hurâ—h without sence to you For the attribute Romane doth not restraine anie whit the amplitude of the signification of that worde catholicke or vniuersall either in reâ—pect of tyme or place as you ignorantlie imagine but doth onlie distinguish it from all such sects as falselie and presumptuously terme themselues catholike but dare not call themselues RomaÌ„s or Roman Catholickes As in former ages the worde catholike was added to the name christian for the same purpose as auncient Pacianus signifieth Therefore when we say a Roman Catholike we woulde say no more but a true and not a falsely termed catholike And because you are a member of one of those sects which are discried by this worde Romane you hate it as theeues hate the light whereby they are discouered PILK For who can conceiue the catholike churche to be Roman which was in the worlde before Rome it selfe was for it is the generall assembly of the Saints Heb. 12. â—3 from Abell the first iust vnto the last that shall beleeue in Christe as S. Aug speaketh Moreouer all the nations in the worlde not the Romans were promised to Christ psal 2. Aske of me and I will geue thee the gentiles for thine inheritance and the vttermost partes of the earth for thy possession and so S. Aug writeth that God promised to the seede of Abraham not the Romans but all the gentils and sealed it with an oathe by which promise it came to passe that manie nations not contayned vnder the Roman iurisdiction receiued the Gospell and were ioyned vnto the churche CHAMP There is no greater difficultie to conceiue howe the catholike churche may be called Roman then howe the christian churche which denomination began first at Antioch is called Catholike And if you would knowe he reason why it is denominated of Rome rather then of Antioche or Hierusalem it is because S. Peeter who was Bishoppe of Rome receiued promise of our Sauiour Christ that his churche shoulde be builte vppon him as vppon a firme rocke and that hell gates shoulde neuer preuaile against it Which promise our Sauiour Christ hauinge performed it is come to passe that the churche of Christe which was first called christian then Catholike is nowe called Roman and thus much for the name RomaÌ„ Nowe I woulde haue you marke that whatsoeuer you say in proofe of this attribute catholike you say in condemnation of your owne protestanticall assemblies which were neuer hearde of before Martin Luther no more then the Arrians were before Arrius and the rest of the sects and heresies before theire maisters and authours Which one argument had you but anie indifferencie ioyned with anie meane iudgment woulde be sufficient to make you detest the felloweshippe of such newe maisters PILK Besides the moderne Romane churche hath made a defection from that which the primatiue Roman church maintayned in so much that S. Paules Epistles written to the auncient RomaÌ„s may iustlie be called an antilogie of that Religion which nowe is professed in the cittie of Rome CHAMP Some substantiall proofe
of this your assertion woulde assuredlie gett you the victorie in all the rest you contende aboute without all further dispute But the manifest falsitie of your affirmation doth not only make your cause desperate but also deepelie woundeth your creditt hauinge no care to affirme so apparant vntruthes without the slenderest shewe of proofe or probabilitie att all PILK Besides we doe not finde in anie auncient creede either that of the Apostles or of Nice or in anie other of the auncient counsells that the churche was stiled the catholâ—cke Roman Finallie howe canne a parte be the whole Nowe the Roman churche thoughe shee were pure in her farthest extent is but a parte of the vniuersall churche CHAMP Haue you not yett learned howe vaine a thinge it is to argue ab authorita â— neâ—a ua Produce you some aun ient creede where the churche is called the christian churche which thoughe you cannot doe yett I hope you will not denie the catholicke churche to be rightlie so called Neither is the Roman church taken for a parte of the catholike churche as you either falselie or foolishlie surmise but for the whole as the kinge of England is not taken onlie to be kinge of Englande but of the rest of his kingdomes also the whole takinge name of one parte as is ordinarie euen in common speach which you cannot be ignorant of PILK Yett you say this vniuersall particular churche admitteth a larger Canon then the protestants you meane the Apocripha And so it standeth her in hand otherwise shee might bid a dieu to diuerse profitable points that helpe her to vphoulde her Monarchie But the churche of God before Christ receiued them not but the same which the protestants doe embrace Neither read we that Christe or anie of his Apostles did cite anie testimonie out of them to confirme any doctrâ—ne by them which they did out of all the canonicall bookes Besides if we followe S. August iudgment whereby we may discerne suspitious writinge from canonicall then these wil easilie appeare to be conterfaites First saith he they are not such as the churche credited received into canonicall authoritie Secondlie there be manie thinges imbarked in them which Apostolicall rule of faith and sound doctrine doth contradict both these are verified of the Apocripha For neither the churche of God before Christ receiued them to whom were committed the oracles of God Rom. 3. 2. which Christe woulde haue reprooued them for if they had without iust cause reiected them as well as he did reprehend them for the misinterpretinge of the canonicall bookes neither yett longe after Christe did the Christian churche imbrace them And besides in the bookes them selues there are certaine brandes whereby they may be discerned from the canonicall First the addition vnto the booke of Hester saith that Mardocheus had receiued rewardes for the detection of the conspiracie of the kinges Chamberlaynes the true Hester sayth he receiued none The suppositius Hester saith that Haman intended the the destruction of Mardocheus for detectinge the Eunuches Hest. 12. 6. The true Hester saith for denyinge him worshippe Hester 3. 5. The true Hester the kinge looked gratiouslie vppon her the conterfeit he looked angerlie The booke of Baruch saith that the cittie of Hierusalem was taken and burnt at the same tyme Ieremie teacheth the contrarie the bookes of the kinges The additions vnto Daniell say that when Danyell deliuered Susanna he was a childe the true Daniell saith that he with two others made by the kinge were chiefe ouer 120. princes that they might take all the accompts of the kingdome and the kinge might not be troubled But children vse not to be sett ouer such affaires Commentitiues Daniell saith in the storie of Bell that he was fed by Abacucke 14. 36. whereas Abacucke prophesied longe before the captiuitie 1. 6. In the booke of Tobie cap. 12. 15 the Angell calleth himselfe Raphaell the Angell of the Lorde but chapter the 5. 12. he is of the kinred of Ananias and Azarias the greate if he be the Angell of the Lorde he cannot be the sonne of a man As true is that medecine wherwith the deuill is driuen away but corporall creatures vse not to make anie impression into a substance simply intellectuall as deuills be In Iudith the cruell murther committed by Symeon and Leui is propounded to be imitated cap. 8. 23. which Genesis the 49. is reprehended and accursed The booke of wisdome is falselie intituled as it had been composed by Salomon whereas the author of it was Philo the Iewe. Ecclesiasticus craueth pardon if he come shorte in some wordes which the penmen of the holy Ghost vsed not to doe In the bookes of the Maccabies a parricide is commended that layde handes on himselfe which is forbidden by the lawe So your longe Canon hath but certayn inches that are true and perfect the rest are but leaden and crooked yet for all this you say CHAMP That the catholike Romane churche admitteth a larger Canon that is as the Manuall saith moe bookes and parcells of the Bible for holy scripture then the protestants doe is so manifest that you dare not denie it Nowe whether these bookes and parcells of bookes be apocripha or noe is in controuersie you affirminge them so to be and we denyinge it Which question cannot here be disputed or discussed for confoundinge of matters Onlie this I say by the way to your obiections made against them that if you doe stand to S. Aug iudgment in this pointe to whome you make shewe to appeale the cause is lost on your parte and if you will not beleeue me reade his seconde booke de Doctrina Christiana cap 5. 6. and be your owne iudge Againe your exceptions against the bookes in controuersie are such as if they were admitted for sufficient to prooue them Apocripha I dare vndertake to prooue all or the most parte of the bookes in the Bible to be Apocripha And this I will make good whensoeuer you dare vppon equall conditions to chalenge me therunto See therfore I pray what a friende you are to the holy scripture that open such and so wide a gappe to take quite away all scripture And this shall suffice for answere to all your tedious discourse in this section Manuall Catholike position the first That all such articles as by her the Catholike Roman churche and the protestants are beleeued and holden for articles of faith are not so expressely contayned in the holy scriptures as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof PILK This position is so doubtfullie sett downe as if of purpose you would walke in a cloude that your reader might not perceiue you For if by expresselie you meane wordes and sillables then it is true that all articles of faith are not contayned in holy scriptures in so manie wordes but if you meane the sence and substance and that which may be deduced by necessarie consequence then it is
false that full proofe cannot be made of all articles of faith out of scripture In the former sence there is not anie protestant that hath taught that the scriptures expresselie contayne all articles of faith and this you papists knowe For Eckius reprooueth the Lutherans for that they will haue nothinge beleeued but which is expresse scripture or can be prooued out of scriptures So that your owne side perceiue we beleeue thinges that are not expresselie sett downe in scriptures but nothinge which hath not a iust proofe out of it CHAMP The cloude is in your owne brayne and not in my position which is neither darke not doubtfull but to you who perceiuinge it to presse and pinch woulde gladlie finde some doubtefullnes therein For if you had not been either blinde or blinde foulded you would haue seen that the position denyeth full proofe of all articles of faith out of scriptures in the same sence and meaninge that you professe to mayntaine the affirmatiue and not onlie the expresse contayninge them in so manie wordes or sillabels Manuall proofe of the Catholike position The articles which protestants beleeue to be of faith as well as Catholikes and yett are not contayned expresselie in holy scripture are manie but we will geue instance but onlie in a fewe First that there are three distinct persons and one only substance or essence in God Secondlie that the second and thirde persons are of the same substance and of equall glorie with the first Thirdelie that the thirde person proceedeth from the second and from the first Fowerthly that there are two distinct and compleat natures in our Sauiour Christ and but one onlie person Fiftlie that there are in him two willes and two operations to witt of God and man aboute all which haue been diuerse heresies as is wel known to the learned And thoughe all these articles haue most true grounde and proofe in holy scriptures yett are they not so expressely contayned therein as they may be fullie prooued by them alone One example shall serue for al to prooue the sonne of God to be consubstantial or of one substance with the father the catholikes doe alleage and trulie this testimonie I and the father are one yett because there are moe means of being one theÌ„ in substaÌ„ce as namelie to be of one wil desire affectioÌ„ of which sorte of vnitie speciallie the Arrians did expound this place alleaginge for themselues that testimonie I pray that they al may be one as thou father in me and I in thee that they also in vs may be one Which cannot be vnderstoode of vnitie in substance Therefore this testimonie without the interpretation of the churche which is the piller of truth doth not fullie prooue the father and the sonne to be one in substance The like may be sayd of the other articles here mentioned PILK What a gap you opeÌ„ to Gentilisme Iudaisme and Heresie when you deny the maine groundes of christianitie to haue a full proofe from the scriptures but require the helpe of tradition and authoritie of the churche as if the authoritie of the church woulde preuaile with them with whom the scriptures will not CHAMP Are you a doctor in diuinitie and thinke a greate gappe to be opened to Gentilisme and Iudaiâ—me by denyinge the mistery of the blessed Trinitie to be fullie and clearlie prooued out of the scriptures only would you if you had to doe with them goe aboute to prooue that mysterie either out of the newe testament to the Iewes or out of the whole Bible to the Gentiles It would well become your iudgment indeede and suteth well with the rest of your learned discourses But whatsoeuer you would doe in that case I knowe that noe man indued with one dramme of witt would thinke that kinde of proofe to haue anie force with them that receiue not the scriptures thoughe they were as cleare and expresse as you coulde desire them to be And a for the gap opened hereby to heresie Lett the worlde that seeth so manie sects of heresies spronge out of one Luther iudge whether your paradoxe of the sufficiencie of onlie scripture without respecte to the churches authoritie and iudgment hath not brought them forth and begotten them Lett the example of Legatt testifie whether your position or myne open the gap wider to heresie Finallie lett all the heresies in the worlde witnes whether the contemninge of the churches authoritie in expoundinge of holy scriptures hath not been the mother of them all Take away therefore your paradoxe of the fulnes of scriptures and put my position of the necessitie of the churches iudgment in declaringe the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures in practise and the gap to all heresie will quicklie be so fast shutt that shee will neuer more appeare in the worlde PILK But in defence of that royall and holy faith we are verie confident that all these articles expressed by you haue both a true and full proofe from them The trinitie of persons in the vnitie of one essence is plainlie taught otherwise what man or Angell durst prie into that maiestie lest he were oppressed of glorie There be three that beare witnes in heauen Father worde holy ghost and these three are one saith S. Iohn And Mathewe 28. Baptise them in the name of the Father the sonne and the holy Ghost Which places as they prooue the vnitie of the essence in trinitie of persons so likewise doe they theire comon glorie because to be and to be glorious in the God heade is all one as S. Aug. argueth The procession of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is fullie taught Io. 15. 26. where he is termed the Spiritt of truth that proceedeth froÌ„ the father which verie worde S. Ioh. vseth of the to w-edged sworde proceedinge out of the mouth of Christe which is nothinge but the spiritt of his lippes wherwith he shall striks the wicked as Esay prophesieth cap. 11. 4. And with the breath of his lippes he shall slay the wicked And to shewe his procession as well from the sonne as from the father Christe breathed vppon his disciples and sayde Receiue the holie ghost and for that he is called the spiritt of the sonne Gal. 4. 6. And because yee are sonnes God hath sent forth the spirit of his sonne into your hearts which crieth Abba father That there be two destinct natures in Christ one onlie person Esay prophesied cap. 1. 14. Behoulde the Virgin shall conceiue and beare a sonne and shee shall call his name Immanuell And like Ierc. cap. 23. 6. In his dayes Iuda shall be saued and Israell shall will safelie and this is the name whereby they shall cal him the lorde our righteousnes which S. Iohn fulfilled Io. 1. 14. And the worde was made flesh and dwelte amonge vs and we sawe the glorie thereof as the glorie of the onlie begotten of the father full of grace and truth of
which two distinct natures there be two wills and two operations as S. Luke sheweth not my will but thy will be doÌ„ne For he that hath two perfect natures must needes haue theire natural properties operations but to wil worke are natural proprieties operations followinge both natures in Christ therfore he had two willes and two operations All which places are vrged by the auncient Fathers and late writers protestants and papists to confirme these seuerall points in so much that you are forced to graunt that they haue a true proofe from the holy scriptures And then I may say as S. August saith to Maximian the Arrian Si vox ista vera est quaestio illa finita est But you papists haue nimbler witts then the fathers for you are not content with truth but you must haue full proofe as thoughe that proofe which to a man is true were not full For there can be noe fuller proofe then that which doth conuince and satisfie the vnderstandinge but a true proofe doth so For what is truth but adaequatio rei intellectus And yett if there be anie difference betweene true full these articles are fullie concluded out of the scripture For beinge articles of the Apostolicke creede they are plainlie sett downe as Bellarmine confesseth out of S. Aug. And some of them questioned by the Arrians as the consubstantialitie of the sonne which in the next place you except against he saith that of these questions which then were moued clarissima extabant in scripturis testimonia quae sine dubio antepÌ„onenda sunt omnibus conciliorum testimonijs These thinges then that haue most cleare testimonies out of scriptures and to be preferred before all testimonies of councells haue a full proofe from them but such are some of these articles yett you proceede to fight against scriptures and wringe from Christians one of the strongest Bulwarkes they haue against Arrians I and the consubstantialitie of the sonne because the Arrians interpreted it of vnitie of concorde and will But if the mist of poperie had not blinded your eyes you might easily haue seen vnanswerable arguments out of the text to prooue the sonne consubstantiall to the father and so to be vnderstoode of the vnitie of substance For the Iewes require him to tell them plainely whether he be that Christ he answereth directlie he is there fore the naturall and consubstantiall sonne of God as he prooueth Matt. 22. 45. out of the Psalme 100. If then Dauid called him Lorde howe is he then his sonne Secondlie he that geueth eternall life to his sheepe so that none can take them out of his hande is of the same power and consequentlie of the same nature with God For what is it to be God but to be of the highest and greatest power then which none greater but the sonne doth soe ver 28. 29. And I geue vnto them eternall life and they shall neuer perish neither shall anie plucke them out of myne hande Thirdlie the Iewes tooke vppe stones to stone him as a blasphemer as one that made himselfe God this cause they sett downe in plaine termes verse 33. Because thou makest thy selfe God beinge man but it is no blasphemie to be of the like will desire and affection with God playne therefore it is by Christs argument that he did preache God so to be his Father as the Iewes vnderstoode he would haue himselfe the naturall sonne of God See nowe excepte you be blinder theÌ„ the Iewes how plentifullie this scripture prooueth the consubstaÌ„tialitie of the sonne and as for the place of Io. 17. it helpeth not the Arrians at all as S. Aug. sheweth to Pascentius the Arrian For that wheresoeuer the scripture speaketh of two that are one as in this place they are euer of one substance And therfore he chargeth both Maximianus theire Bishoppe and Pascentius a noble man of theire opinion to trauers the scriptures if anie where they coulde shew two sayde to be one that are not one in substance But lett this be graunted that I and the Father are one prooueth onlie vnitie of will not of substance is there not an armie of scriptures besides this to prooue the sonne of the same substance that we neede not call in the authoritie of the churche CHAMP You haue bestowed all this labour moste idlie goinge aboute to prooue to me that these articles are true and to haue true grounde in the scriptures which no catholicke euer doubted of That which you shoulde haue laboured in if you woulde haue spoken to the purpose is that these articles haue so full proofe out of scriptures onlie that an heretike might be conuinced thereby without iudgment and interpretation of the churche vppon the same places Which is euidently prooued to be false by the many and diuerse heresies which haue been maintayned against all these articles For the authors thereof hereticallie refusinge the vnderstandinge of the church vppon those places of scriptures and diuers others as you also doe in the places condemninge your heresies and followinge wilfullie theire owne iudgment therein as you in like manner doe coulde not be conuinced of theire errours but interpreted these places and all others brought against them in such sorte as they made not against them att all And as for the particuler authorities proouing diuers of these articles consulte with your Grand Maister Caluin and see what weight he putâ—eth in them for the proofe of the sayde misteries Or if you like not to turne his bookes read the litle booke written by Egidius Hunnius a professed protestant intituled Caluinus Iudaizans and you shall see whether he was conuinced in these articles by all the passages of holy scripture alleaged for that purpose Yett would I not haue you to thinke that I approoue his wicked doctrine herein which I detest as most hereticall but onlie produce him as an irreprooueable instance of my position Therefore all the longe lose and imperfect discourse which you haue made in this paragraffe wherein are manie paralogismes and impertinencies so farr as it prooueth anie thinge prooueth Caluin to haue been a wicked miscreant but prooueth nothinge against my position which denieth not these verities to haue most true ground in holy scripture according to the true sence and meaninge thereof but not in such sorte as the euidence thereof cannot be auoyded by an heretike And you your selfe that wrangle so much heere against all experience as well of the present as all precedent ages will not acknowledge the catholike positions nowe in controuersie prooued by more or at least by as plaine and expresse scripture as these are to be sufficientlie prooued So that I neede seeke no further confirmation of my position then the experience of your owne peruersitie PILK Yea to stoppe your mouth I add that S. Aug. doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the church in his polemicall bookes against the Arrian Bishopp in two seuerall councells the one of Nice the
thinge deliuered in the worde CHAMP That is properlie an article of faith that is beleeued for diuine authoritie whether it be written or noe as were all these thinges the fathers beleeued before the lawe written And because we beleeue the bookes of Genesis for example and the rest of the holy Byble to be written by Gods reuelation therefore doe we beleeue them to be holy scripture and to containe gods worde Which therefore is properlie an article of faith no lesse then the misterie of the blessed trinitie beleeued for the same authoritie PILK Vppon this grounde I answere first in generall that none of these points are articles of faith CHAMP Vppon such a false grounde you are like to builde a good answere Is it no article of faith with you that the booke of Genesis is written by gods reuelation Tell me I pray you vnto what kinde of knowledge or assent you will reduce it I will confesse you a maister in diuinitie if you can make it well appeare by what other act of knowledge or vnderstandinge we assent vnto this veritie besides the act of faith Which if you cannot performe as assuredlie you cannott you must needes see this your first answere to be noe answere att all but a meere supposall of a manifest falsitie PILK Secondlie I answere to euerie one in particular I answere to the the first That all canonicall bookes and euerie parcell thereof be such is prooued out of themselues For besides that the ould testament prooueth the newe and the newe the old for whatsoeuer we read in the ould testament the same is founde in the gospell and whatsoeuer is founde in the gospell that is deduced from the authoritie of the ould testament as Hierome speaketh so in speciall euerie booke prooueth it selfe both by its owne light as formerlie was shewed and by the testimonie of Christ of the Prophets and Apostles that were the secretaries of the holy ghost The testimonie of our Sauiour Christ. Luc. 24. 44. These are the wordes which I spake vnto you while I was with you that all must needes be fulfilled which were written of me in the lawe of Moyses and in the prophetts and in the psalmes Of S. Paule 2. Tim. 3. 16. All scripture is geuen by the inspiration of God and is profitable to doctrine to reproofe to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes Of S. Peter the 2. epist 1. 21. The prophecie came not in olde tyme by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost doe abundantlie prooue the bookes of the olde testament to be canonicall besides that there is not anie of them out of which some testimonie is not in the newe testament extant CHAMP Your second answere is as much to the purpose as your first Neither the old testament proouing the newe nor contrariwise vnles the one be beleeued before Yea you make your selfe ridiculous to all men by such a naturall or circulare proofe vnles you suppose the assured beleefe of some parte before For example if one shoulde demaunde of you how you knowe or why you doe beleeue those wordes of our Sauiour which you cite out of the 24 of S. Luke either to haue been spoken by him or written by S. Luke would you say that they euidentlie prooue themselues so to be surely this you must say both accordinge to your doctrine here and accordinge to the necessitie you putt your selfe into by denyinge the authority of tradition and of the churches testimonie And yett in sayinge that you shall euidently prooue your selfe to be senceles For there is noe such euidence of the thinge but anie man that is not moued with the authoritie of gods churche and tradition would esteeme it verie vncertaine and most doubtfull For vnles these wordes and that which I say of them I say of the rest of the scripture were God himselfe and spake to vs as imediatlie as he did to Moises and the rest of his prophetts they cannot be sayde to be knowne by theire owne light nor beleeued for theire owne truth Againe suppose you had certayne knoweledge of this by what meanes soeuer howe could you be certayne that he speaketh of those bookes of Moises psalmes and prophetts which we haue vnder those names This certainlie would be impossible for you to prooue seinge you reiect the authoritie of tradition and the churches iudgment by which onlie it is assuredlie prooued Furthermore you knowe that our Sauiour speakinge in his owne person required not to be beleeued but by the testimonie of his workes sayinge Nisi opera in eis fecissem 〈◊〉 nemo alius fecit peccatum non haberent Much lesse therefore doth he require that we shoulde beleeue a written booke to be his worde without other proofe then the selfe light of the booke which is not so greate as that of his owne liuelie worde◠The sayinge of S Hierome is nothinge to the purpose For he speaketh onlie of the mutuall consent and concord of the two testaments which to christians that alreadie beleeue them both to be the worde of God is no small confirmation of the veritie of the doctrine they both contayne PILK The Gospells of the Euangelists the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles the reuelation of S. Iohn prooue themselues out of themselues to be theires whose titles they beare And if we creditt the bookes of historians and Philosophers auncient and moderne diuine and humane to be theires whose names they carrie in theire foreheads what madnes were it to thinke the diuine scriptures not to be written by them who are said to be theire penmen after the defluxion of so manie ages wherein neuer anie good christian called them in question besides wicked Iesuits impure Manichees Cerdonians Marcionists and Ebionites CHAMP None of all these bookes say they were written by such and such as is manifest And thoughe they did yett were not this sufficient to prooue them theirs vnles it were certaine this were theire testimonie and that they were infallible in their testimonie As for the titles they beare there is the same difficultie For it is not otherwise knowne to be theirs then by faith and beleefe of which we seeke the grounde And if titles were sufficient proofes of the true gospells we should haue manie moe gospells then we haue as you cannot be ignorant Againe the Epistle to the Hebrues beareth not the name of anie of the Apostles and howe longe it was thought by diuerse not to be S. Paules you knowe vnles you be verie ignorant For the workes of other humane authors why doe you beleeue them to be theirs if it be not for the testimonie of all succeedinge ages brought vnto vs by tradition Giue some other sufficient grounde of your beleefe in this poynte if you can and if you cannot say you are senceles to reiect ecclesiasticall tradition in receiuinge the bookes of the Bible or else that your iudgment is foolishe and idle
Moreouer were it certainly knowne vnto vs that S. Mathewe wrote the gospell we haue vnder his owne name as it is nowe by tradition and the churches authoritie yett vnles it were further certaine that he wrote by diuine inspiration which without some diuine testimonie we knowe not it could not be certaine to vs that his gospell is the word of God Nowe if you had lefte out of the number of those that haue called the scriptures into questioÌ„ Iesuites and putt in theire place Lutherans or Protestants your wordes might haue passed for currant But tell me in the small honestie of a protestant minister did you euer knowe that anie Iesuite called anie booke of scripture into question or doubte you cannot thoughe you burst your selfe giue an instance Whereas you doe not onlie call manie bookes of the holy Byble into doubt but absolutlie reiect them as Apocripha and your Grand father Luther with his truer disciples doth manie moe euen of those which you say is madnes to call into question Hath malice so blinded you and wilfull rage against the truth made you so madd that you feele not the deadly woundes which you geue your selfe whilst you strike or at least thinke to strike your aduersarie PILK But what iuglinge is this we beleeue these bookes to be theirs whose names they carrie for the authoritie of the churche that is the Pope who is S. Peeters successour and holdeth all his authoritie from him and yett we cannot beleeue S. Peeter himselfe that this Epistle is his but because the present Pope hath so determined it CHAMP I cannot say that you iugle here you are so grossely impertinent and hoodle vppe so manie apparant absurdities in these fewe wordes Where learned you I pray you that the Pope is the churche or that he holdeth all his authoritie from S. Peter and not from Christ himselfe Againe where doth S Peter testifie that this is his Epistle haue you or anie of your reformed bretheren heard him say it no such thinge Seeing therefore neither you nor anie man nowe a liue euer heard him testifie anie such thinge what great iuglinge is it I pray you to beleeue a liuely and liuinge witnes assisted by the spiritt of truth and taught by those who lineallie descended from S. Peter testifiinge that these are S. Peters writinges rather then to beleeue a doombe paper or parchment which might be written by some other as well as other thinges that went a broade vnder the same Apostles name And by that which hath beeÌ„ hitherto sayde on both sides you may see if you will not shut your eies that you may not see that it is cleare notwithstandinge all your childishe ianglinge that all articles of faith are not contayned in scriptues otherwise then is mentioned in the position of the Manuall nowe lett vs see your answere to the other proofes of the same position PILK To your second instance we say with Saint August that we are not willinge to moue anie questions aboute the Mother of God for the honour we beare vnto her sonne Yett sith you stirre the coales we answere that it is an highe pointe of our faith and sufficientlie prooued in the scriptures that Christe was borne of an intemerat Virgin but whether after his birth shee were knowne of Ioseph thoughe the negatiue be a seemelie and reuerend truth yett we say with Basill that it toucheth not our faith CHAMP You woulde seeme to be religiouslie affected towardes the blessed Virgin but notwithstandinge you minse S. Aug wordes least you shoulde doe her too much honour his wordes are these De Maria propter honorem Saluatoris nullam cum de â—eccatis agitur habere volo quaestionem And in the end you are content rather to incline towardes the old heretike Heluidius then to beleeue with the holy catholike churche concerninge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed Virgin Where is nowe I pray you your rule of faith before mentioned non credimus quia non legimus I coniure you vppon forfeiture of your honestie and integritie either to reiect that rule as noe sufficient grounde of faith in anie article or else to beleeue that the blessed Virgin was neuer knowne of anie man Take whether parte you please you shall geue sentence for me against your selfe PILK Your thirde instance is no article of faith but â— Canon of manners so in the number not of thinges to be beleeued but to be donne Wherein thoughe to the Apostles for the auoydinge of scandall for the eatinge of thinges strangled and blood yett when the offence was remoued the eatinge was allowed Rom. 14. 14. 1. Tim. 4. 4. and Saint August prooueth it out of S. Mathewe cap. 15. 17. 18. CHAMP Are you so blockishe that you doe not or so peruerse that you will not see the difference betweene the practise of anie thinge and the doctrine of the lawfulnes of the same practise Whereby you might be taught that thoughe the first be not an article of faith yett the second may be For example thoughe it be not an article of faith for two single persons to marrie together but a matter of practise yett is it a matter of faith that they may lawfullie marrie together as I hope you will not denie and so in fiue hundreth more thinges That the Apostles did make that prohibition for a tyme onlie and not to continue euer where is it written or whence haue you it but by the churches authoritie interpretation The places of scriptures by you cited were they to the purpose as they are not woulde be sufficient arguments to make some of the bookes doubtfull as coÌ„tradictinge the one the other were there not a iudge to reconcile them and bringe them to attonement togeather And thus you see all the three instances brought in proofe of the catholike position in the Manuall to remaine firme and solide and your euasions to be childishe wranglings without truth or substance PILK Thus you see you fight against God when you warre against the perfection of holy worde Which that you may more plainlie perceiue in the last place I will sett downe the protestants doctrine not in such double tearmes as you deuised but theire owne wordes as they haue positiuelie deliuered with the seuerall authorities of holy scriptures whereby they confirme it and testimonies of fathers whereby they shewe the consanguinitie of it with the purest Christians For the positions sett downe by you are not by them acknowledged CHAMP If you deny my positions to be true as hauinge hitherto disputed against them you seeme to doe then must you of necessitie acknowledge the contradictorie to be true and maintaine them as yours vnles you will haue both contradictories to be false which no man yett euer hearde of But why doe you not put downe the positions which I call the protestants positions that the reader might see how iustlie you denie them to be yours I will supply your defect that the
indifferent reader may iudge whether the positions sett downe in the Manuall vnder the title of protestants positions be not truly theirs Manuall protestant positions All articles of faith are so expresselie contained in scriptures as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof All articles of faith are at least so contained in holy scriptures as without any testimonie or authoritie of the churche or traditions they may thence be plainly and distinctlie deduced These are the positions in the Manuall in this first controuersie vnder the title of protestant positions which you say are not acknowledged by them And yett if I vnderstande your wordes you admitte them neither can you iuâ—lâ—e denie them as I sayde before but lett vs heare what you say for your selfe PILK They say not that all articles of faith are expresselie sett downe in holy scriptures but either expressely or analogicallie and so they haue a full proofe out of them CHAMP Compare this position with that sett downe by me in the first place and see wherein they differ Only you make the first parte of your position absolute as if it had been so set downe by me but this is your owne fraude and deceipte For I made it not absolute but modall or comparatiue as appeareth by the thinge it selfe The position therefore sett downe by me is yours and therefore to be prooued out of the scriptures as the position it selfe requireth â—herein if you fasle your position will be conuinced to be false and your faith accordinglie PILK Secondlie they admitte of the testimonie of the churche both concerninge articles of faith and the scriptures themselues First to discerne true from false Secondlie publiklie to preache them Thirdlie to interpret and expounde them but euer accordinge to the scriptures themselues without anie addition of her owne either of sufficiencie or perfection vnto them CHAMP That is in good speach they admitt the testimony of the churche so farr as it contradicteth not theire errours Or they admitte of it not to be iudged by it for so all disputes woulde quicklie haue an end but to iudge it themselues for so they knowe they may wrangle eternallie PILK Here then is the difference that the papists say the churche addeth sufficiencie to the scriptures and fulnes The protestants say shee addeth none but sheweth that which is in it The papists say shee brought light vnto them The protestants say shee bringeth none but declareth and manifestesh that which it hath in it selfe This then is theire doctrine CHAMP The catholikes doe teache and beleeue that the churche of God hath infallible authoritie to declare what bookes are holy scripture and also to deliuer the true sence and meaninge thereof neither of which the scriptures do performe by themselues and yett are they both necessarie if not to euerie ChristiaÌ„ in particular yett to the whole churche in generall They doe not teach or beleeue that the churche addeth anie truth or verity to the scriptures which they immediately haue from God himselfe whose word and reuelation they containe but shee declareth vnto vs infalliblie what are the verities contayned in them To which beleefe and doctrine you seeme to come verie neere in your last wordes if you were constant therein But you say and vnsay at euerie turne Nowe lett vs heare the positions which you say the protestants acknowledge in this controuersie PILK ANTITHESIS All truth concerninge faith and good workes necessarie vnto saluation is sufficientlie and fullie deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures CHAMP Seinge you voluntarilie enter combate why doe you not obserue the conditions prescribed It was required that in case you woulde impugne the catholike position sett downe and prooued in the Manuall as hitherto you haue laboured to doe you should prooue by expresse scriptures the contradictorie which in that case must necessarilie be yours and not to frame vnto your selfe another which may stand with that you impugned beinge like a shooe that fitteth euerie foote This I say because the position sett downe here by you vnderstoode with these two restrictons is not denyed of anie catholike The first is that it include not the scriptures themselues but suppose them as beleeued The second that it speake onlie of truthes or articles necessary to euerie mans saluation For these are fewe and sufficientlie expressed in holy scripture Your position vnderstoode in this mannet hath noe aduersarie and therefore needeth not your feeble and weake proofes Neuertheles because your proofes seeme to suppose a further meaninge in your position to witt that all thinges whatsoeuer without exception or restriction are to be beleeued either by euerie man in perticular or all men in generall are fullie sett downe in holy scripture which is opposite to the catholike position of the Manuall I will examine your proofes and try what weight they beare PILK Proofe of the protestants position Deuteronomie 4. 2. yee shall not adde vnto the worde which I commaunde you neither shall yee detracte from it that yee may keepe the commaundements of the Lorde your God which I coÌ„maunde you Argument That whereunto nothing must be added nothinge detracted contayneth a perfect and full doctrine of faith and manners such is the scripture ergo CHAMP What will you vnderstand by the word which God heere commaundeth onlie the fiue bookes of Moises which then were onlie extant If you vnderstande it so as trulie you cannott otherwise what will you say to all the reste of the bookes both of the ould newe testament written since were they added against gods commandement you will feare to say so What then will this place serue you for to make a poore shewe of some proofe out of scripture to deceaue your lesse skilfull reader and for noe other purpose But peraduenture you will contend that it ought to be vnderstoode of all that which God shoulde speake aswell after as before and so to comprehend the whole scripture This sence though not verie probable I am content to accept of that you may see I doe not deale niggardlie with you To your argument therefore I say you iugle somethinge in itt but not cunninglie If you woulde conclude anie thinge out of this place of scripture you must say in your minor but such is the word of God And then the conclusion will be directlie against your selfe who detracteth from gods worde both written denyinge manie and sundrie bookes of holy scripture and also vnwritten reiectinge all traditioÌ„s which the scriptures themselues commaunde vs to receiue And so haue you concluded your selfe a manifest transgressour of gods lawe and commaundement When you shall answere sufficientlie this argument I will pay you a fee worthe your doctors Cappe PILK Proofe 2. Prou 30. 5. 6. Euerie worde of God is pure he is a shielde to them that put theire trust in him adde you nothinge vnto his worde least he reprooue thee and thou be founde a lyar CHAMP Therefore what Therefore all articles of faith are fullie
deliuered in scripture make this conclusion by lawfull argument but of this place and I shall esteeme you a Maister Logician But it is enough for you to quote a place of scripture thoughe as fitly for your purpose as Pruritanus doth manie in your behalfe PILK Proofe 3. Reuelations â—2 18. 19. I testify vnto euerie man that heareth the wordes of the prophecie of this booke if anie shall adde vnto these thinges God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if anie shall take away from the wordes of the booke of this prophecie God shall take away his parte out of the booke of life and out of the holy cittie and from the thinges that are written in this booke CHAMP What if I should say with your Grand Father Luther that this booke is apocriphall and therefore your proofe of no worth But God forbidd I should be so prophane as to vse such an aunswere I say therefore that to conclude anie thinge out of this testimonie against me you must conclude not onlie your selfe but S. Paule also and all the rest of the writers of holy scripture to be subiect to this curse here mentioned seeinge they haue all added manie thinges to this booke that is they haue taught and written manie thinges to be beleeued and obserued not contayned in this booke which is the sence and force of your argument and which you are bounde to solue So blinde hath heresie made you that you see not what is with you what against you PILK Proofe 4. Gal. 1. 8. 9. Though we or an angell from heauen preach vnto you besides that we haue preached lett him be accursed 1. Cor. 4. 6. That yee might learne in vs not to be wise aboue that which is written If neither an Apostle nor Angell from heauen may preach anie thinge besides that which is written nor be wise aboue it then that which is written contayneth a full doctrine both of faith and manners CHAMP This argument is like the rest and as trulie deducted from the places quoted In the first place the Apostle faith not 〈…〉 that which is written as you fraudulentlie soist in but besides that which we haue preached That your argument therefore may conclude you must shewe out of scripture that the Apostle had not preached anie thinge more then at that tyme he had written which will bee a taske impossible for you euer to performe especially seeinge the Apostle himselfe testifieth the contrarie commaundinge his disciples To holde the traditioÌ„s which they had learned whether by worde or Epistle Againe when he saith besides that we haue preached he meaneth contrarie to that we haue preached as S. Aug expoundeth him 1200. yeeres before your heresie was hatched In the second testimonie the vulgar translation which was receiued for authenticall in S. Hieromes tymes hath not these wordes not to be wiâ—â— But to doe you a fauour I will admitte of your text and I answere that your argument is foolish For he that is wise with the churche teachinge or beleeuinge with the churche which the scriptures testifie to be the piller and ground of truth is not wise aboue that which is written but conformeablie to that which is written And thus you see your position thoughe positiue or affirmatiue to be so farr from being prooued by expresse scripture that it hath not the least ground therein Whereas the positions of the Manuall thoughe onlie negatiue haue expresse instaÌ„ces out of the holy scripture Lett therefore the indifferent and iudicious reader iudge whether of them hath greater arguments of truth And if we should followe you rule non creâ—â—imus quia â—oâ— ie imus howe woulde you perswade vs to beleeue that all truth pertayninge to â—aith and manners necessarie to saluation is fuâ—lie deliuered in holy sceipture Seeinge you cannot shewe vs it written in anie place whereby you see your selfe either driuen to disauowe your rule of beleefe or to confesse this your position not to be beleeued But peraduenture you will make your proofes stronger out of the fathers Lett vs see what you bringe out of them But marke I pray you whether they be expositions of the places of scripture cited in your fauour or sayinges vttered vppon other occasions If they be of the first sorte they will be more forcible for you but if they be of the other kinde as they are they will be of lesse moment for your purpose Well these they are PILK Proofe 5. All thinges that our lorde did are not written but these thinges which the writers thought sufficient for faith and manners that shininge both in truth of â—aith and vertuous workes we might come to the kingdome of heauen CHAMP The scriptures testifyinge the authoritie of the churche and of the pastours thereof with the obligation that euerie one hath to heare and obay them are trulie sayd by S. Cyrill to contayne those thinges which are sufficient for faith and manners For the thinges that are not directlie expressed in them are learned by the pastours of the churche authorised by the scriptures I maruell you were not afrayde of S. Cyrill seeinge he testifyeth so directlie the necessitie of good workes besides faith for the gayninge of the kingdome of heauen But you receiue the fathers no farther then they seeme to make for you such is your sinceritie PILK Proofe 6. Whatsoeuer is sought for vnto saluation all that is nowe fulfilled in the scriptures CHAMP Your ignorance or peruersitie in this place is intollerable For S. Chrisost speaketh of the institution of the newe testament whereby all thinges necessarie to saluation are fulfilled and not of the scriptures contayninge fullie all thinges necessarie to beleeued PILK Proofe 7. We adore the fulnes of scriptures lett Hermogenes shewe his opinion to be written if it be not written lett him feare the woe denounced to adders and detractours CHAMP Tertullian speaketh of the fulnes of the scripture in that one point whereupon he disputed with that heretike not in all other articles of faith as is manifest by the place it selfe which the iudicious reader may see and satisfy himselfe for here it cannot without tediousnes and ouer much prolixitie bee sett downe PILK Proofe 8. If anie shall preach either of Christ or his churche or of anie other thinge that pertayneth to beleefe or life I will not say if we but that which Paule addeth if an Angell from heauen shall shew vnto you besides that which you haue receiued in the scriptures of the lawe and the Gospell lett him be accursed That which hath a fulnes in it as Tertull. and Chris speake and contayneth in itt all thinges pertayninge to faith and manners as Cyrill and Aug. say that doth fullie prooue all articles of beleefe and life such is the scripture CHAMP S. Aug. wordes haue the sence and meaninge that S. Paules haue takinge beâ—iâ—es for against or contrarie to the scriptures as S. August explicateth himselfe
tract 98. in Ioh before mentioned Nowe your argument out of all these places is shewed to be vayne and of noe force by the particular answere to euerie authoritie And thus farr haue you brought nothinge more for the proofe of your position thē anie heretike in the worlde may or might haue brought for the proofe of his heresie For euerie heretike can bringe single places of scripture yea and of fathers in fauour of his heresie But to bringe scriptures interpreted by the fathers in fauour of theire heresie is a thinge if not impossible at least verie harde and rare beinge the priuiledge of the catholike churche alone PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The scriptures contayne in themselues a perfect doctrine of saith and good workes necessarie to saluation without testimonie authoritie or tradition of the churche addinge vnto them or bringinge from without them anie other doctrine CHAMP This position is the same in sence if either of them haue anie sence with the former and therefore vainlie is tearmed by you a second Antithesis vnlesse euerie tyme you write a position varyinge a fewe wordes in it but retayninge the same sence you will say it is a newe positiō But to lett this passe your proofes so farr as they make anie thinge against the catholike veritie are to be pondered PILK Proofe 1. 2. Tim. 3. 16. The whole scripture is diuinelie geuen and profitable for doctrine for reproofe for correction for instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfectlie instructed in euerie good worke That which perfecteth the man of God to euerie good worke contayneth perfect doctrine of faith and manners without addition of anie othèr but the scriptures do so Ergo. CHAMP It must needes be obstinacie in errour and not ignoraunce as I thinke that maketh you abuse this place For first you cannot be ignorant that the Apostle speaketh there of the scriptures of the olde testament wherewith S. Timothy was acquainted from his infancie which if you will say to contayne a perfect doctrine then is all the newe testament either superfluous or at the least not necessarie Secondlie the Apostle peaketh not of the whole scripture taken together but of euerie parte thereof seuerallie meaninge that euerie parte of scripture is proffitable to teach correct and instruct which is true but nothinge to your purpose And that he speaketh not of the whole scripture in the former sence but in the latter it is manifest For when he wrote this to Timothie the whole scripture which the church nowe hath was not written Lastlie lett it be sayd that he speaketh it of the whole scripture in the former sence yett he saith no more but that it is profitable to teache instruct c. which I easilie graunt you and yett I say your argument drawne from thence is most friuolous as appeareth by the like sett downe before in answere of this of yours wherunto I referre you PILK Proofe 2. Iohn 5. 35. Search the scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life Luke 16. 29. They haue Moises the prophetts lett thē heare them That which teacheth how we may come to eternall life and shunne or escape eternall death contayneth a perfect doctrine of faith and good workes But the scriptures doe soe ergo CHAMP Make your minor proposition this as it should be but the olde Testament doth soe for of the olde testament onlie these places speake as is manifest and your conclusion will serue directlie to exclude the whole newe testament from the perfect rule of faith Fye I am ashamed in your behalfe of such childishnes as you shewe in these arguments PILK Proofe 3. Acts 1. 1. The former treatise haue I made ô Theophilus of all that Iesus began to doe and teach These thinges that Christ did and taught contayne a perfect doctrine but these thinges are written CHAMP Conclude therefore the onlie ghospell of S. Luke contayneth a perfect doctrine Is this your intent noe but blinde malice against the euident truth draweth you into these grosse absurdities If you haue noe care of your soule haue yett for shame some care of your credit and reputation for the gayninge of which you haue trauelled these fower or fiue yeeres to bringe foorthe this miserable heape of vnshapen absurdities A miserable labour I wisse whereby you gaine nothinge but the reputation of an impertinent minister deuoyde of ordinarie iudgment To these fewe testimonies of scripture so miserablie mistaken you adde some passages of the fathers to as good purpose as you did in the former Antithesis These they are PILK Proofe 4. If you be the disciples of the gospell saith Athanasius speake not iniquitie against God but walke in those thinges which are written or donne For if you will speake diuers thinges from these thinges that are written why striue you with vs without them The scriptures are perfect as spoken from the worde of God and his spiritt CHAMP S. Athanasius speaketh of such thinges as are not onlie not directly in scriptures but are against and contrarie to scriptures S. Ireneus saith the scriptures beinge spoken by the spiritt of God are perfect as the thinges spoken by men are not which haue imperfections and therefore are subiect to corrections and amendments You abuse therefore your reader with an equiuocall tearme of perfect PILK Proofe 5. The order of this present tecture teacheth that we must nott adde anie thinge to the diuine precepts for if thou addest or detractest it is a preuarication of the precept Oftentymes when a witnes addeth anie thinge of his owne he spotteth the whole creditt of his testimonie with a lye nothinge therefore thoughe it seeme good must be added And a litle after if S. Iohn hath sayde of his writinge if anie man adde vnto these thinges God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if anie man shall take away from the worde of this prophecie God shall take away his parte from the booke of life howe much more nothinge is to be added to godds precepts CHAMP That which is taught or commēded by the churche which the scripture commandeth vs to heare is not superadded to gods commandements or precepts but is comprised in them you therefore that will not heare and obey the churche which you are so expressely commaunded to heare euidentlie and damnablie detract from diuine precepts Therefore this authoritie is so farr from proouinge anie thinge to your purpose that it ouerthroweth it rather PILK Proofe 6. O Emperour doost thou demaunde what our faith is Heare it not out of newe papers but out of the bookes of God heare I pray thee the thinges that are written of Christ least vnder them those thinges that are not written should be preached Open thy eares to those thinges that shall speake out of the bookes lifte vppe thy faith vnto God I will not defend any thinge scandalous nor anie thinge that is from without the gospell
it necessarie to beleeue that they wrote the wordes thereof and then it is not to the purpose to proue your positioÌ„ which is of thinges to be beleeued and not of wordes But if by the creede you vnderstande the matter of it and thinges to be beleeued then it is vntrue that the Apostles writte it not and all thinges contayned therein which thinges haue continued in our churche as the obiect of our faith not for tradition onlie as you ignorantly say but because they are recorded in the holy scripture CHAMP Shewe me then in theire writings I meane the Apostles the discention of our Sauiour into hell and the catholicke churche which Luther loued so little that he turned it the christian churche Thoughe we beleeue not onlie the parcells of the creede but the whole creede together And that the Apostles made it which is no where expressed in scripture And if I say ignorantlie that the creede as it is composed by the Apostles and therefore receiued and beleeued of all christians in al ages hath continued in the church vntill this day by tradition only shewe it me written in the scriptures and I will confesse myne ignorance and correct my wordes But seeinge you cannot performe that I tell you that you impudentlie affirme that it hath other continuance then by tradition opposinge tradition to the canonicall scripture onlie Manuall Proofe 7. They taught Baptisme administred by heretikes to be good and therefore S. Aug. speakinge thereof saith Manie thinges which are not found in the Apostles writinges nor in the latter councells yet because they are obserued by the whole churche are beleeued to be deliuered and recommended by none but by theÌ„ Againe he saith There are manie thinges which the whole church doth hold and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written PILK That Baptisme ministred by heretikes was preached by the Apostles but not written hath as much truth as the rest For whereas Cyprian hath taught that Baptisme of heretikes was not good and therefore to be reiterated S. Aug. crosseth him and prooueth the contrarie out of the ghospell and out of the wordes of the Apostle Ephe. 4. And this is so frequent with that father that it maketh me thinke you haue not read him of that argument but gleaned out of others that might serue your turne So pâ—lpably are you deceiued to thinke that S. August conceiued this to be an vnwritten tradition without ground of scripture for thus he writeth That I may not seeme to prooue it by humane arguments I will bringe foorth certayne documents out of the scripture And whereas Cyprian had taught that for proofe of this we must haue recourse vnto the fountayne of Apostolicall tradition that is the scriptures S. Aug approoueth it and saith that the Apostles deliuered that there is one God one Christe one baptisme and therefore baptisme of heretikes is firme and not to be repeated When then he saith of this as of other thinges that they are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in latter councells c. And there be manie thinges which the whole churche doth holde and therfore are well beleeued to be commended by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written Which wordes are in his 2. booke contra Donatistas cap. 7. and not lib. 5. cap. 27. as you cited them His meaninge is they are not written in so manie wordes but the groundes of them are layd in the scriptures and thence necessarilie they may be concluded This is playne out of Aug. for hauinge vttered these wordes vrged by you when he draweth to an ende of this disputation he thus concludeth It might suffice that our reasons beinge so often repeated and diuerselie debated and handled in disputinge and the documents of holy scripture beinge added and so manie testimonies of Cyprian concurringe By this tyme I thinke the weaker sorte of men vnderstande that the baptisme of Christe cannot be violated by the peruersnes of the partie that geueth or receiueth it Loe howe be bringeth documents out of scripture to prooue that the peruersnes of heretikes peruerteth not the baptisme of Christe and therfore baptisme ministred by hereticks is good CHAMP Is it be written by the Apostles that the Baptisme of heretikes is sufficient and not to be reiterated why doe not you shewe the place and confound your aduersarie But you had rather impudeÌ„tlie affirme an vntruth theÌ„ ingeniously acknowledg a cleare veritie As thoughe if it hadd been so clearly fully taught in holy scripture as you are bound to shewe it S. Cyprian who had a much iudgmeÌ„t to discerne it as you att least and noe lesse good will to acknowledge it nor yett lesse industrie and diligence to seeke it could not he haue esped it And howsoeuer here you wilfullie wrangle out of S. Aug as though he acknowledged not the Baptisme of heretikes by tradition yett two pages after you in expresse wordes confesse that he saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes are written in scripture And though you interpret him both here and there to meane that they are not founde written in so manie wordes but that the groundes notwithstandinge from whence they may be necessarilie concluded are layd in the scriptures yett is this your glosse meerelie voluntarie clearlie against S. August meaninge and common sence Or iâ— not why doe not you frame some argument which by necessary consequence may conclude out of the groundes layd in scripture abstractinge from the authoritie of the churche and tradition either of these two articles But it is more easie for you to affirme twentie positions then to prooue one Manuall catholike position 2. The Catholike churche doth and ought to beleeue those thinges which the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth without writinge in the same degree of faith with those that are written PILK For answere vnto this lett the iudicious reader obserue that it is the vsuall doctrine of Papists to teach that all points of Christian beliefe which are necessarie for all men were publikelie preached by the Apostles to all men and recorded in the register of holy scripture But besides these there were diuers thinges committed to prelats and priests that were more perfect men which they taught them a parte accordinge to that which S. Paule saith we speake wisdome amonge them that are perfect And these be theire traditions which they would haue equallie credited with the scriptures Nowe this was the verie doctrine of the auncient heretikes Valentinians Cerintheans Marcionists c. For abusinge the scripture and aduancinge traditioÌ„s grounded on the same foundation as the fathers tell vs. And these be thinges which the protestants denie to be equall with the scriptures for they graunt that the Apostles in the beginninge of theire embassage write not the whole doctrine which they preached but deliuered parte by worde of mouth and parte by writinge howbeit they consigned the Canon of the scripture and
writte that formerlie they had deliuered as Ireneus and August doe teach This beinge the true state of the question if the papists meane not these former secret matters that Bellarmine mentioneth and are not written his position is de non ente For that there is nothinge or faith nowe which the Apostles did not after they preached either finde or leaue in writinge vnto the churche and these beinge deliuered at first partely by liuelie voyce partely by letters were to be embraced with like acceptance and creditt But if he meane these secret doctrines deliuered a parte and only by worde neuer by them written then we denie that the Apostles left any such thinge equallie to be credited with the holy scriptures neither the allegations inferre anie such matter CHAMP You haue here multiplyed a greate heape of vnnecessarie wordes making the thinge obscure which of it selfe is cleare enough The question is not now as you say whether the Apostles taught not more by word of mouth whether in secret or in publicke that importeth not that hauinge been disputed before and prooued against you But of what authoritie the thinges deliuered only by worde of mouth are of which question you haue the beleefe of the catholicke churche sett downe directlie in the position of the Manuall and the proofe thereof out of expresse scripture whereunto lett vs heare your answere Manuall Proofe 1. Therefore brethren stand and holde the traditions which you haue learned whether it be by worde or by our Epistle S. Basill saith I account it Apostolike to continue firmelie in vnwritten traditions and alleageth this place of S. Paule S. Chrisost cited by fulke himselfe saith this Hereof it is manifest that they the Apostles deliuered not all by Epistles but manie things without letters and the one is of as great creditt as the other Therefore we thinke the traditions of the churche to be worthy of creditt it is tradition inquire noe more PILK To your first testimonie if I shoulde answere that S. Paule meaneth not he deliuered some thinges by writinge somethings by worde only but the very same by both first preachinge it and after writinge it would trouble you to prooue the contrarie For the disiunctiue whether argueth not diuersitie of thinges deliuered but diuers wayes of deliueringe the same as in other places Rom. 14. 8. whether we liue or whether we dye wee are the lordes it followeth not dying we are one and liuinge we are another 1. Cor. 5. 11. whether I or they so we preach and therefore Paule preached one gospell the Apostles another CHAMP You doe wiselie not to stand much vppon your newe inuention least to your owne companions you might become ridiculous neither though you should stande there vppon shoulde it putt me to much trouble to prooue the contrary vnles to establishe your noueltie you woulde thinke to inuert the common and vsuall manner of speakinge and vnderstandinge of all men For the disiunctiue whether doth alwayes signifie the diuersitie of the thinge ioyned with it as is manifest euen in your examples whether we liue or dye whether I or they but so as one and the same thinge is affirmed of them both so it is in our testimonie as also in these sayinges followinge retayne the goods you haue receiued whether in money or marchandise Keepe the present I sent you whether in Iewells or in plaie With fiue thousand moe And it is a ridiculous conceipt to thinke that the Apostle commended vnto his disciple the same thinges both written and preached in which sence his sayinge shoulde be no more disiunctiue but copulatiue in this manner hold those thinges which you haue learned both by worde and Epistle Which is not to interprett the Apostle but manifestly to corrupt him Seeinge therefore you dare not stand vppon this interpretation let vs heare your auowed answere PILK But I adde that if one vnderstand these thinges of diuerse pointes of Christian religion which S. Paule deliuered vnto the Thessalonâ—aÌ„s and writte them not it will not followe that other Apostles writte them not and still your thesis is de non ente this testimonie is to no purpose sith what point of doctrine Paule deliuered by voyce we finde recorded in the scriptures CHAMP It followeth right well that the other Apostles writte not these thinge which S. Paule deliuered onlie by worde if your rule be true non credimus quia non â—egimios For it is noe where written that they wrote those thinges therefore accordinge to your doctrine not to be beleeued Againe I hauinge prooued by expresse scripture interpreted by the fathers that the Apostle taught somethinge more then he wrote and commanded it to be beleeued equally with his writinge which is the position of the Manuall it behooueth you that maintayne the contrarie to prooue it by expresse scripture or else to confesse that the catholike doctrine hath better and more firme ground in the scripture then Protestantisme You prooue brauely my thesis to be de non enâ—e and the proofe thereof to be to no purpose by your ordinarie miserable absurde and ridiculous begginge of that which is in question supposinge that for true and graunted which is expresselie denyed But to such shameful shifts is falsitie worthely driuen Lett vs see the rest of your answere if it be anie better PILK The testimonie cited out of Basill is wrongfullie fathered on that worthy-Bishoppe and contradicteth that which he writeth in other places and are acknowledged on both sides to be his and namelie his sermon de fide where he saith that it is a manifest desection from faith to bringe in anie thinge that is not written Besides in this verie chapter mentioned by you he speakes of Meletus as a rare man that liued an dyed before his tyme as appeareth by diuers of his Epistles And if we creditt Baronius he dyed after Basill For Basill dyed 378. and Meletus 381. CHAMP Here indeede you goe roundlie to worke and like yourselfe for not knowinge howe to answere the authoritie you denie the author for two weighty reasons I wisse The first is a pretence of a contradiction which is as much a contradiction as to affirme Mr. Pilkinton to be a minister and a doctor For he affirminge it to be Apostolike to continue firmelie in vnwritten traditions saith it is infidelitie to adde any thinge to the scriptures that is contrarie vnto them The second is a weake coÌ„iecture that he liued after one Meletus who notwithstandinge is sayde to die after him PILK Chrisostome is the onlie man that seemeth to fauour your assertion but trulie vnderstood he helpeth it nothinge For he speaketh not of traditions that are not written at all but of such as are not written in so manie wordes And it is vsuall with the fathers to call them vnwritten traditions which are not verbatim sett downe in the scriptures and yett haue a true ground in them as formerlie I shewed out of S. Aug. who saith that