Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	church_n	err_v	infallible_a	2,189	5	9.8254	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08330	A true report of the priuate colloquy betweene M. Smith, aliâs Norrice, and M. VValker held in the presence of two vvorthy knights, and of a few other gentlemen, some Catholikes, some Protestants : with a briefe confutation of the false, and adulterated summe, which M. Walker, pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete, hath diuulged of the same.	S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630.; Walker, George, 1581?-1651.	1624 (1624)	STC 18661; ESTC S461	30,866	65

Church Ergo Other Churches also M. SMITH I deny the Minor The Apostolical Church did not erre in a maine point of Fayth M. WALKER The act of Christs Resurrection from the dead taught in Scripture is a fundamentall point of Fayth The Apostolicall church did erre in it Ergo c. M. SMITH I distinguish the Minor The Apostles erred or rather were ignorant of the act of Christes Resurrection as a matter of fact I graunt the Minor as an Article of faith I deny it for it was indeed a diuine verity a true matter of fact at that tyme yet no article of faith M. WALKER Behold Gentlemen he denyeth the Resurrection to be an Article of faith M. Smiths Companion You wilfully abuse him he denyeth it not absolutly but only for that tyme because it was not then sufficiently promulgated M. WALKER Reach me the Bible I will shew the contrary in expresse words of Scripture So opening the booke he read how some of the Apostles knew not the Scriptures that he must rise from the dead how our Sauiour appeared to the eleauen Apostles and vpbrayded their incredulity and hardnes of hart because they belieued not them who had seene him after he was risen At this Syr William Harington houlding vp his handes sayd Oh I protest I neuer heard any poynt so playnely prooued M. SMITH Proued he hath proued nothing For I graunt the Apostles were slow in belieuing dull in vnderstanding the resurrection of Christ but I say it was not then an article of fayth which they were obliged expressely to belieue because it was not so clearely promulgated and proued vnto them as to bynd them vnder the payne of Heresy or note of Infidelity at that tyme to imbrace A Protestant Gentleman Say you soe Was it not expressely reuealed in Scripture sufficiently promulgated by Christ himself M. SMITH I acknowledge the reuelation of scripture the promulgation of Christ sufficient in themselues yet not in respect of the Apostles capacity for they were yet rude and weake of vnderstanding they had not as yet that inward illustration and light of the holy Ghost those outward motiues and arguments of credibility which did binde them to giue infallible assent to so deep a mystery They assented and belieued that all was true which Christ sayd all true which the Scriptures reuealed concerning his Resurrection yet they knew not whether the sense and meaning of those passages were to be taken truely or enigmatically properly or figuratiuely Of this only were they ignorant and this ignorance proceeded from their imbecillity and weakenesse and not from the insufficiency of holy Scripture The Gentleman satisfied with this M. Walker grauelled with the former answere his reasoning was at an end howbeit his brawling would haue no end for the foresayd distinction held him at such a bay as notwithstanding he bragged much of his dexterity in disputing yet with all his cunning Sophistry he could not so much as frame one argument one Syllogisme or Enthimeme against it But being in a monstrous rage because his pryde could not brooke such a fowle ouerthrowe I thought good to giue way to his chafing fit and so departed with these very wordes VVell well I perceiue my distinction hath choked your argument you are not able to proceed Now after that I arose and walked hard by the other Priest that assisted me explicating the answere that I had giuen sayd M. Smiths Companion It is not much to be meruailed that the Apostles at the first conceaued not aright the Resurrection of Christ for the Apostolicall Church was then in her infancy it was newly raysed not wholy finished begun but not perfected The Euangelicall law was deliuered yet not fully established And can this vndergoe the censure of any other doctrine then sound and orthodoxall Or could M. Walker iustly vaunt of any allegation he brought against M. Smith Then read and detest the arrogant style of an hereticall Impostor who blusheth not to print after his confusion these flourishing wordes M. WALKER M. Smith being put to silence with those proofes the other Priest to make vs this breach fled to another shift and denyed the Apostles to haue byn a Church at that tyme because the Holy Ghost was not yet come downe nor the Euangelicall law reuealed M. SMITH If you were not already returned in open Court for a willfull lyar forger false Prophet and Priest of Baal your wordes might beare some shew of credit but in so much as you are notoriously defamed for such an one I onely intreat the Reader to iudge whether I were silenced or you whether my Companion fled to another shift or defended the answere which I gaue Whether you haue not writhed his wordes to a faulty strayne of purpose to reprooue them For he denyed not the Apostles to haue byn at that tyme a Church nor that the Euangelicall law was reuealed but that it was not promulgated that the Church was not yet perfect or law cōplete For how could it be then fully cōplete when it wanted diuers guiftes and endowments necessary to the entyre complement and perfection therof When it wanted the spirituall comfort and inward Vnction of the Holy Ghost When it wanted her outward promulgation essentially required to the establishmēt of a law When it wanted the guift of tongues most requisit for the conuersion of all Nations When it wāted that vigour or strength of verity of which our Sauiour sayd Tarry in the Citty till you be endued with power from high How then M. Walker how could your conscience serue you to carpe or reprehend that saying of his strengthned and supported by such warrantable proofes To peruert and disorder the whole frame and methode of your owne disputation How could it serue you 1. To charge me with tearming the Apostles ignorance or hardnesse of hart an errour of forgetfulnesse 2. To faygne me to say that the Scriptures had not expressely reuealed how Christ should rise from the dead 3. To faygne that I intreated you to shew it me out of the Ghospell 4. That I persisted still how the Scriptures had not sufficiently reuealed it All most iniurious and hideous lyes Notwithstāding these leasinges of his or selfe-deuised fancyes he mustreth a band of three seuerall probations and graceth the last with the admiratiō or solemne acclamation of one of his Assistantes howbeit it was vsed vpon another occasion Such is euery where the iugling of that vain-glorious Sycophant yet he dischargeth me from the labour of refuting his arguments sith they are nothing else but engines raysed to batter the forts of his owne conceits which neuertheles he suffereth not to fall to the ground without the sound of his fellowes applause praysing himselfe for ouercomming himselfe in such a skirmish in which he is both the assayler and the assayled he the Maister and he the maystered idely conquering and basely conquered both at once Moreouer he reprooueth me for making a strange

of meer fraud so treacherously insert M. WALKER Well I am content to make this the very issue of our meeting And if M Whitaker affirme any such thing let me be branded with the marke of a willfull liar impostor and false Prophet But if I shew the cōtrary out of his owne writings then shall you cōfesse your selfe a forger a falsifier an impostor a Priest of Baal The gentlemen all confessed this was faire play desired it might be soc Wherupon M. Smith as M. Walker writeth began to drawbacke shewed himselfe vnwilling much affraid to hazard his credit so quickly would gladly haue left this poynt fallen into another M. SMITH How little I was affraid to hazard my credit in that matter the standers by at that tyme can witnesse and the euidences I am now to bring out of M. Whitaker shall manifestly declare for he supposing that wheresoeuer the Word is trulie preached there it is heard there it is belieued and conserued and there it fructifieth in the hearts of some expresly auerreth of the markes afore mentioned 1. We ascribe these properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church whose presence make the Church and their absence marre or destroy the Church But if they comprehend the true nature of the Church without which it cannot stand they contayne not the accidentall but the essentiall nature If the essentiall Nature the essence yf the essence the whole essence because it is indiuisible they must comprehēd it whole or not at all it cannot be comprehended in part because it hath no parts 2. He teacheth that the pure preaching of the Word is the cause of the Church c. Then as the cause produceth her effect so truth doth constitute the Church and is cause therof Besides he often affirmeth that though this cause be more hidden to vs yet it is more knowne in nature more knowne in it selfe then the Church where he vndoubtedly speaketh not of the efficient but of the formall cause And who is so meane a student as not to knowe that the formall cause of a thing is the chiefe principall and formall essence of that whose cause it is 3. D. Whitaker holdeth that to be the essence of the Church which he doth comprehend in the definition of the Church as you very impertinently vrge against me and yet the description he maketh by these markes I now handle he plainly tearmeth a definition of the Church in his answere to M. Campian saying This definition engendred in the natiue and inward principles of the thing it selfe which wee define thou shalt neuer be able to ouerthrow Againe in another place speaking of the same markes he sayeth Those things which define those denote and signifie the Church c. So what a Horse what a Lion what an Eagle is by their definition it is knowne Therfore as the definition of an Horse of a Lion of an Eagle contayne their whole essence so the aforsayd marks which define the Church contayne the whole essence and nature of the Church By these three Arguments so stronge as M. Walker is not able to answere them so cleere as he cannot delude them the truth of my assertion is irreproueably confirmed he by his owne challeng and engagement is openly conuinced to be a wilfull liar a forger an impostor a false prophet and a Priest of Baal for such he must be chronicled for such entitled and whatsoeuer heerafter he shall say or write with that note of infamie must be all discarded Euen such is that which heere he writeth immediatly after M. WALKER Gentlemen it is true that D. Whitaker maintaines that the Word trulie preached and the Sacraments rightly administred are the certaine and infallible notes and markes by which euery true particular Church may be discerned to be Christs true Church and you know that the markes of a thinge differ from the essence and substance of it as the signe hanging at the dore of a Tauerne disters from the Tauerne it selfe and the habit and cowle of a Monke or Friar which is the marke of his Order differs from the Monke himselfe c. M. SMITH Where were your wits where was your iudgment where the reading of you Cantabrigian Professors when you wrote this at randome of their doctrine For the signe of a Tauerne the habit of a monke are ou ward extrinsecall signes those of M. Whitakers ●●c●et internall yours only knowne to the eye of sēse his to the vnderstāding eye of faith yours separable his altogeather inseparable yours may be changed or taken away without hurt or annoiance of the subiects they designe his cannot be remoued without destruction of the Church yours are not so much as accidentall qualities originallie springing from the essence of the things but voluntary signes instituted as the Logitians say to signifie at the will only and pleasure of man M. Whitakers are most true and as he calleth them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 proprietates essentiall properties essentiall markes grafted in the inward principles of the Church it selfe so little conuersant are you in the monuments of your Maister Besides you do not only write thus opposit vnto him but most childishly also contradict your self tearming these notes of M. Whitaker certaine and infallible and yet comparing them with mutable and vncertaine signes which only signifie at mans appoyntment For an Iuye bush is not alwaies an infallible signe of a Tauerne nor the habit of a Friar an infallible marke of him as the Tragicall murders which no Friars but bloudy Homicides haue committed in Friars weedes and many other Comedies can tell you But because you are so ignorant as not to knowe your selfe what to say or what your owne men teach concerning this poynt let me examine you about another touching the Infallibilitie of the Church What hold you May the whole militant Church on earth erre or noe M. WALKER This is a captious and ambiguous question cannot directly in one word negatiue or affirmatiue be answered vnto M. SMITH No D. Reynolds answereth affirmatiuely that it may erre This is one of his Theses publickly defended in the Vniuersitie of Oxford but you thinke all things captious because you are set to cauill and willing to decline the disputation we haue in hand M. WALKER Nay I s●y it is captious and ambiguous because in some respect it may e●re in others it cannot If we consider it according to her Militancie Weaknes and Imperfections of men who are lyars so wee tr●●e say it may erre If we consider it according to the direction of Gods holy Spirit the assistance of Christ his Prophets and Apostles as it is guyded by their doctrine cleaueth close to the Scripture and swarueth not from them soe long we teach that it is infallible and cannot erre M. SMITH But thus euerie Hereticall Assemblie is also infallible Thus the Iewes Turkes Infidels Diuells

second Principle presupposeth that Faith must not only be infallible but whole also and entire Witnes S. Athanasius in the beginning of his Creed Whosoeuer doth not beleiue the Catholike faith wholy i●uiolably he shall vndoubtedly perish And S. Leo A great safeguard is faith entire true faith in which nothing can be added by any nothing de●racted because vnlesse fayth be one it is no fayth the Apostle auerring One Lord One fayth To which purpose our Sauiour himself auoucheth He that beleiueth not shall be condemned that is he that beleiueth not euery Article expresly or implicitely he that beleiueth not the whole summe of Christian doctrine shall incurre the forfaiture of his saluation For as all thinges are to be obserued whatsoeuer Christ commanded so all thinges to be beleiued whatsoeuer he taught and in such manner that albeit the mysteries in themselues are some of lesse some of greater moment some necessary some contingent yet as they are testified reuealed by God they ought all with equall certaintie with the same suretie to be credited imbraced because God in all things little or great necessarie or contingent is equally great of infallible credit Wherby euery Article is so fast riuetted and conioyned one with the other in such vniforme due proportion as they make sayth S. Gregory Nazianzen A Chayne truly golden and soueraigne From which if your withdraw but one you withdraw your saluation as S. Ambrose writeth The third principle is that the ordinary meanes of atteyning the whole and infallible fayth is from the mouth of the Church from the lipps of her Priests because fayth is by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ to wit by the word expounded and preached vnto vs by his lawfull Pastours for it goeth immediatly before How shall they heare without à Preacher and how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Whervpon it necessarily ensueth that if they be sent from God to teach his heauenly doctrine if we be bound to beleiue vpon their testification and preaching their preaching must be certaine their testification vndeceiuable that we may securely receyue the word they deliuer not as the word of men but as it is indeed the word of God who by their mouthes speaketh by their testimony sealeth and witnesseth it vnto vs especially seeing he commandeth vs to heare them as himself to obey them as his Vicegerents to beleiue them vnder penaltie of damnation seing he giueth them the Holy Ghost to teach them all truth to sanctifie them in veritie that we be not carryed about with any winde of doctrine Therefore as God cannot immediatly by himself or mediatly by any other deliuer that which may be doubtfull or vncertaine so much lesse by the mouth of those his witnesses his iudges his interpreters by whome he vttereth the Oracles of truth as I might more fullie demonstrate if I had not already elswhere vncontrollably euicted and proued the same Yea the very nature and condition of fayth perforce requireth it for that being an assent of our vnderstanding to thinges not appearing that is not appearing true through the euidence of truth in themselues or through the light of humane reason but only by this Authority of God who testifieth them not immediatly but by the meanes of his Church by the true Pastors and expounders of his word if they might vary or fluctuate in the rules they follow of expounding Scripture their expositions were wauering their preaching vncōstant they could neither assuredly teach nor we vndoubtedly giue credit to that which they propose as to constant stable and immoueable truth For it is a warrantable position of M. Whitakers Such as the meanes be such of necessitie must be the interpretation it selfe But the meanes of interpreting obscur● places are vncertaine doubtfull and ambiguous Then it cannot possibly be but that the interpretation it self is vncertaine if vncertaine then may it be false But if it may be false as M. Walker acknowledgeth the interpretation of the Protestants Church may be it ouerthroweth the ground of fayth the foundation of Religion For what els can be or any of his fellowes assig●e on which they stay o● an●ker the certaintie of diuine beleife Their particuler pastor Their priuate spirit But if their Pastours in generall may trip and slumble how much more their particular If the publicke spirit of their Church be errable how deceiuable is their priuate Againe the priuate spirit is hidden it cannot be discouered and opened to others and yet it is open it self to a thousand illusions Therefore it must be tryed by some more known and certaine spirit What then do you build vpō the voice of God that speaketh in the Scripture but that voyce is no other then the bare word or out ward letter of Holy writ of that ariseth our strife and debate That also speaketh most errably to you as your owne contentions and infinite hersies sprung from thence beare euident witnes If your reply that it speaketh inerrably to such a read and heare it with faith and humilitie as they ought you send me still a rouing in the wildernes of vncertaintie for how shall I know who they be that obserue those conditions as they ought And what is this as they ought after your Puritanicall or Caluinian manner Lastly let it be for this wil be your last and poorest refuge that the true Church of IESVS Christ hath alwayes such well known to him what is this to you if you know them not What if we disproue as we plainly doe your Church to be his Where are your humble Readers your faithfull interpreters Or to yield you the vttermost your can aske though most impudently begged at our hands let there be such Readers such Interpreters among you eyther they alwayes infallibly obserue the conditions specified interpreting still a right and then your Church by their direction contrarie to your Tenent can neuer erre Or they fallibly obserue them and so your Church may run astray it cannot be the pillar of faith the storehouse of truth the voyce or trumpet of supernaturall beleife as my last two Syllogismes printed by M. Walker vndeniably conclude which as long as they shall remaine registred in his Pamphlet so long shall it beare the record of his owne disgrace so long shall it proclayme the victorie of our Catholike cause so long shall the Protestant Church lie panting in the dust without life without strength without vitall breath Now let vs behold what new life M. Walker can breath into it to reuiue it againe Marry that a true Christian Church may erre for a tyme in some one fundamentall poynt necessarie to saluation he disputeth thus M. WALKER That which the auncient Apostolicall Church might doe other succeeding Churches may doe with the same successe But the Apostolicall Church might erre and did erre in a maine poynt and yet haue a true faith and was a true

distinction between a thing as he tearmeth it and it selfe because I sayd that the act of Christs Resurrection was a true matter of fact a diuine Verity yet no article of fayth which the Apostles then were bound expresly to belieue But is this so strange I will giue you an instance of the like strange distinction The validity of baptisme ministred by Heretiks was alwayes a diuine Verity alwayes a truth sufficiently reuealed in holy Scriptures in the first of S. Iohn and the third of S. Luke where it is written It is he that baptizeth Christ is the principall agent whose action cannot be frustrated by the faultes of his instrument yet this was not alwayes an article of fayth vntill it was publickly defined by the Consistory of Gods Church which caused Vincentius Lirynensis to free them from heresy who defended the contrary before to condemne such as persisted in vpholding it after the definition his wordes are these O wonderfull change and alteration of thinges The Fathers of one and selfe same opinions are adiudged Catholiques the followers Heretiques the maysters are acquitted the disciples condēned the wryters of bookes shall be Sonnes of the kyngdome the maintainers of the same shall be cast into hell Finally M. Walker for his vpshot relateth the commendation a Catholike gaue him of his noble conquest after he was thus discomfited I reprint his words which he for very shame disguiseth vnder the cloke of a third person M. WALKER When the Priestes were very willing to make an end and the Protestant Gentlemen seemed well satisfied and made them ready to depart One of the Roman Catholiques calling M. Walker aside began to collogue and flatter with him telling him that he was a good Logician a good Linguist and well read and that God had giuen him a sharp wit and ready tongue and therfore no meruaile though he preuayled and made a good cause seeme bad when he opposed it and a bad cause seem good when he defended it M. SMITH Fye fie M. Walker Are you so greedy of a little vayn-glory as thus to blazon with your owne pen for you penned the whole summe though you maske it vnder another vizard the false lustre of your supposed talents Of such as neuer were acknowledged by any of your Pew-fellowes in Cābridge much lesse extolled by the mouth of a Catholike For I enquired of the Gētlemā who cōferred with you he solemnly protesteth before God and man and is ready if need require to confirme it with his Oath yea and iuridically to diuulge it to all the word First that he neuer gaue you those high titles of commendation which you set downe Secondly that the Courtly complements he cast vpon you were meerely in iest by the figure of Ironia as the Wisedome of God iested at Adam after his fall saying Loe Adam is become as it were one of vs knowing good and euill yet such was your quick and subtile wit so worthy of admiration as it conceiued that to be spoken in good earnest which was vttered in derision to laugh you to scorne By which and by all the former passages euery indifferēt man may easily perceiue 1. How poore a Religion Protestancy is and how weake a Patrone heere she had who could bring no better propps to sustaine it then knauery fraudulency lyes and falsifications 2. How Thraso-lyke M. Walker boasteth of the Victory and endeth the scene of his fabulous discourse with that triumphātsentence Magna est veritas praeualet Great is truth and it doth preuaile For vnlesse salshood may be inthroned in the chaire of Truth and Vanity possesse the seat of Verity farre too-too farre is he from preuayling who hath ben conuicted and notably disgraced with so many tergiuersations digressions forgeryes and grosse absurdityes who hath byn driuen to such shamefull begging of the principall question to grant that after which before he had denyed to deny that now which he formerly granted yea to a flat ●ntrariety and playne contradiction the greatest ●yles a Scholler can take He I say who hath byn ●ot only vanquished and defeated but chased out ●f the field at euery encounter In which neuertheesse if he had stood and vpheld his quarrell as God forbid he should seeth he not what horrible crimes he had layd to the Apostles charge What ●famies on their flock Seeth he not what a breach ●e had made in Syon What ruines in his owne Ierusalē For by attaching the Apostolicall Church of erring in a fundamentall point manifestly reuealed in holy Scripture and often intimated by the Sonne of God he attacheth it of Infidelity he enditeth it of Heresie and wholy depriueth it of the happy meanes of saluation For the entire profession of sauing truth as Caluin Field and other prime Protestants confesse with vs is necessary to the state of saluatiō which the Apostolical Church wanted when it erred according to him in that essentiall article of Christs Resurrection it wanted then the soueraigne meanes of attayning eternall blisse and so could not be the spouse of Christ the gate of life the temple of God or Church of his beloued sonne without all-sauing truth it is impossible to be his sauing Church The same is more strongly confirmed by the dotage it selfe M. Walker very dotingly laboured to proue or else proued nothing for his purpose That the Apostolike Church erred in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation For if it was necessary the Church could not be saued without it if it might be saued without it it was not an article at that tyme necessary to be belieued Neyther doth he only bereaue that pure and primitiue flocke of the riches of blisse of the integrity of fayth in that one he specified but by the same argument in all other points of belief For as by one mortall sinne the Vertue of charity is wholy expelled according to S. Iames He that offendeth in one is made guilty of all so by one only Heresy or act of Infidelity the habit of fayth is vtterly lost which S. Paul teacheth affirming that Hymenaus and Alexander made ship wrack of their fayth albeit they only denied one sole article to wit the future Resurrection of our flesh Which the Fathers witnesse when they auouch that such as fall into Heresy are degraded of the dignity and right of Christianity Which D. Whitaker also approueth saying If any one fundamentall point of doctrine be remoued the Church presently falleth Wherupon it followeth that the Apostolicall Church was presently buried in her owne ruines that the Apostles made ship wrack of their fayth that they were no Chistians when they beleeued not the Resurrection of Christ if then they were bound to receiue it as a fundamentall article of their beliefe Nay it followeth hereon that the whole fould of Christ for it was wholy no doubt inwrapped in the Apostles errour became ô monstrous impiety and most hellish consequence became I say a heard of