of Christe heareth the voice of Christe and is ruled thereby The church of GOD is the piller and stay of truth so called because that where so euer the church is either visible or inuisible there is the trueth Saint Paule by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers howe great a burthen and charge they sustaine that the trueth of the Gospell can not be continued in the world but by their ministerie in the church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duetie true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth As our church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ and his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified We require you to beleeue the true Catholike church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleeue any one companie of men more than an other Ar. 82. 81. 93. 99. 62. 77. 100. 108. 62. This contradiction is easily reconciled The true Church may erre but not in any point that is necessarie to euerlasting saluation We require men to beleeue the true Catholike Church only not for the companie but for the trueth 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the deade is continued from a corrupt state of the church of Christe vnto a plaine departing away into the church of Antichrist Contra The tâ—ue and onely church of God is so guided by Gods spirite and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to conâ—â—nâ—â— No nor suffereth any man daÌ„nably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence The error of praying for the dead was not damnable while it continued in the Church of Christ the Church of Antichrist by derogating full satisfaction from the bloud of Christ hath made it damnable 35 The church of Christ hath of the holie Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfets and the worde of GOD of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true church in all ages Ar. 5. 4. 9. Contra All other writings are in better case than the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be counted the workes of their authours without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the worde of God except you list so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holie Scriptures with you houe not credite according to the authoritie of God the authour of them but according to your determination Pur. 219. Here is no shewe of contradiction but a wretched begging of the principle that the Popish Church is the true Church of Christ. Of such contradictions you may make not 50 but 500000. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for heretikes haue proued so in deede Ar. 65. Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in Doctor Allens principle stay in al troubles and tempestes The first proposition is an Ironicall imitation of Allens absurd proposition and not an absolute assertion of mine 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are heretikes in deede Ar 65. Contra. He is a foolish Sophister that reasoneth from names to things as you doe most vainely and childishly Ar. 66. The former proposition is the conclusion which I retort vpon Allens principle that whosoeuer by true christians are called heretikes do proue so in deede 38 There is neuer heresie but there is as great doubt of the church as of the matter in question Ar. 86. Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the church tooke no hold of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the church it selfe also The Donatistes challenged the church to themselues Pur. 367. Here is not so much as any shadowe of contradiction for in the heresie of the Donatists the chiefest controuersy was of the Church as for the prayer of the Church they vsed it themselues as well as the true Catholikes out of which prayer Augustine gathereth an argument against them 39 But for the chiefe pointes of christian religion and the foundation of our faith that is Reall presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly against you and therefore can not be of your church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one assirming a Reall presence the other denying it The contradiction is easily auoided by shewing that the reall presence among a number of thinges in that place rehearsed may be one chiefe point of religion and yet not a foundation of our faith For I say the auncient fathers agree with vs in the chiefe points of religion and the foundation of our faith which seeing the Lutherans hold with vs the dissent in one chiefe point of religion can not disseuer them from the Church and yet they dissent not vnto idolatrie as the Papists doe And where Bristow slandereth mee to say that I count the errors of some of that latter sort of old fathers in honoring reliques inuocation of Saints merits traditions vnwritten verities images of the crosse to be contrary to the foundation he is able to shewe no place where I so affirme And albeit they did so earnestly maintaine some of those errors that they condemned by their priuate sensure the contrary truth for heresies yet it followeth not that they were heretikes For it is one thing to hold an error earnestly an other to holde it obstinatly so that he is condemned of his owne conscience when he will not yeeld to the manifest truth plamly proued out of the worde of God 40 We knowe that Luther did not obstinately and maliciously erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of religion Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament and differ onely in ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Ar. 10. 61. Pur. 403. Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath saide neither doe I knowe neither doe I regard let them aunswere for them selues But whereas you charge M.
vtterly deny the office of Christ the foundation of our saluation therefore wee iustly deny you to be of the true church of Christ. Neither is your excuse to be admitted that you erre by authoritie of them who if the trueth had bene as plainly reuealed vnto them out of the scriptures as it is to you would neuer haue so obstinatly defended their errors but as they alwayes professed yelded to the trueth against custome prescription of time authoritie of councels or any practise whatsoeuer CAP. IIII. That he chargeth the sayde primitiue true church with sundry errors wherewith he neither doeth nor will nor can charge vs. I affirme that diuerse godly fathers of the primitiue church held sundry errors which the Papists holde not at this daye Also that the auncient church erred in som points and practise wherewith I will not charge the popish church except they charge them selues But that I should confesse as Bristowe sayeth That there may be a company which erreth not onely some principall members but also the whole body of it and which erreth obstinatly and moreouer which erreth the grossest errors that can be them 〈◊〉 no small number and yet the same company may be the truâ— church This is vtterly false I neuer made such confession neither can Bristow bring any wordes of mine that sound to the same effecte and therefore I here charge him before God and the worlde for a shamelesse lyer and an vngodly slaunderer As for the errors wherewith I charge either the auncient writers or the auncient church of Rome do followe afterward discussed in the sixth Chapter CAP. V. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient timeâ— had the true church notwithstanding these their errors First repeating my confessions That the true church may erre that it hath erred in some articles wherein we erre in many other wherein we do not erre wherof it followeth plainly qd Bristowe that neither our erring nor these our errors no nor any other our errors are alone sufficient for him to depriue vs of the true church Marke this consequens of Bristowe some errors which the Papistes hold common with the olde church cannot depriue them of the true church ergo none other errors that they hold contrary to the auncient church are alone sufficient to depriue them This is popish logike And yet I will in this argument charge his conscience rather then his science for common sense abhorreth such reasoning from the particular to the vniuersall But let vs see if such reason as alloweth the fathers to haue had the true church notwithstanding their errors may serue the Papistes to proue them the true church their errors notwithstanding The reason I alledge that the fathers had the true church is because they held the onely foundation Iesus Christ and the article of iustification by the onely mercie of God Now sayth Bristowe who knoweth not that we beleeue in the onely sonne of God and in the onely mercy of God and that therefore wee looke not to be saued by our owne works that is which we did without him in Paganisme Iudaisme or Caluinisme in heresie or deadly sinne c. but onely by his workes that is by his sacraments and the good deedes that of his great mercy he hath created in vs in Christ Iesus c. therefore the same reason serueth vs notwithstanding our errors I answere your minor is false you beleue not in the onely begotten sonne of God because you beleue not in God Cyprian de duplici Martyrio sayeth Non credit in Deum qui non in eo solo collocat totius foelicitatis suae fiduciam He beleueth not in God which placeth not in him alone the trust of all his felicitie You place not your trust in God alone for you trust in your merites yea in the merites of others both liuing and dead and in an hundreth things beside God alone Secondly where you say you beleeue in the onely mercy of God it is false for you beleeue no iustification by the only mercy and grace of God which excludeth all workes and merites as the Apostle sayeth Rom. 11. Thirdly you says you beleue to be saued by his sacraments which in deede after a sort are sayde to saue vs namely not as principal â—fficient causes but as instruments and meanes that god â—seth to confirme his promises which proceede of his onely grace and mercy Fourthly you saye you beleeue to be saued by those good deeds that God of his mercy hath created in vs which plainly declareth that you looke not to be saued by the onely grace mercy of God purchased by the redemption of Christ but by such good workes as proceede from your selues although you ascribe vnto the grace of God that you be able to do them as both the Pharisee did which iustified him selfe by his owne workes and yet acknowledged God to be the author of them in him Luk. 18. And the Pelagians also affirmed generally that by Gods grace we are saued because God of his grace hath giuen such a lawe by keeping whereof wee might attaine to saluation But you cite S. Paul Tit. 3. to shewe that his mercie sacrament may stande together which no man denyeth yet can you not shewe that his mercie is so tyed to his sacrament that he saueth not without it For Abraham was iustified by faith before he was circumcised and receiued circumcision as a seale of the faith he had being vncircumcised Rom. 4. And where the Apostle speaketh of workes generally excluding them from being cause of our saluation you restreine theÌ„ only to works done before baptisme for this cursed glose you make vpon the text Not for any workes of * righteousness which we did before baptisme say you but for his mercie hee hath saued vs by baptisme But that S. Paul excludeth al maner of works done by vs from iustification the sentence following declareth That being iustified by his grace we might be made heires according to the hope of eternall life For grace and workes can neuer stande as a ioynt efficient cause Rom. 11. but the one of necessitie excludeth the other As for the receiuing of the Sacramentes is no worke of ours as you truely say but an accepting of the grace which God giueth The place Ephes. 2. which you â—ite to proue that we are saued by good workes done after baptisme is cleane against you if you had rehetsed the whole text You are saued saith S. Paul by grace through faith and this not of your selues it is the gift of God not of workes least any man shoulde boast For we are his workemanship created in Christ Iesus vnto good works which God hath prepared that we should walke in them The argument of S. Paul is taken out of the effect Good workes are the effect and aide of our iustification ergo not the efficient cause thereof And marke againe that hee saith we are saued by grace and not of
my parish Church hee declareth that hee doth wilfully mistake my saying of beeres and bearing clothes as though I denyed any thing that is comelye when I speake against superstition and couetuousnesse The seconde parte concerning the errors that hee layed cap. 4. to the fathers and not to vs. 1. Touching the heresies that were in their times He demaundeth what a thing it is that I charge the Church in the Apostles time with heresies that were in the Apostles times and the same Church in three Arrian Emperors times with the heresie of Arrius I answere that I neuer charged either the Apostles or the faithfull members of the Church or the true Church it selfe with any heresies that were in their times But aunswering the demaunde Ar. 15. what Church it was that hath alwayes stoode still and stedfast while all congregations of heretikes haue decayed I say The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast and inseparable from Christe her heade when all heretikes haue beene and shall bee consounded although shee haue not alwayes florished in worldly peace For vntill the time of Constantine the great the Church had small reste And soone after vnder the Emperours Constantius Constano and Valens it was greatly infected with the heresie of Arrius Where Bristowe falsifieth my wordes reporting that I saye The true Church was infected c. the name of the Church is oftentimes generally taken for the whole number of them that professe Christianitie as when I saye the Church was persecuted by the heathen Emperours I meane all that woulde professe Christianitie among whiche were manye heretikes that suffered persecution also Lykewise when I say the Church was infected I meane the visible Church in whiche are alwayes manye hypocrites according to the parable of the nette and of the tares c. yea I doubt not but many of GODS electe were infected with that heresie in those times which afterwarde repented and returned to the knowledge of the trueth wherfore my meaning was nothing lesse then to charge the true Church of Orthodoxie and true profession with the heresie of Arrius or any other which it did openly detest and abhorre An other quarel he hath against me where I saide Ar. 35. That the true Church decayed immediately after the Apostles times In which place after I had shewed what corruption of doctrine had beene receiued of that greatest lights and pillers of the Church from which it was not like that most of the inferior members could bee free I conclude according to the demand which was to declare by good history or reasonable likelyhood wheÌ„ the true church did decaie that it decayed immediately after the Apostles times meaning as the demaunde serueth also to vnderstande the word of decaying when it began to decay not as Bristow cauilleth wheÌ„ it was vtterly decaied came to nothing for such decaying I vtterly deny that euer it was or euer shal be If we see some principall postes of an house begin to putrifie may wee not say this building doth decaye Or being asked when it decayed after it is come to a more ruinous state and yet standeth may wee not aunswere it decayed first when such a beame or post began to put rifie I doubt not but euery man of reasonable vnderstanding wil acknowledge how folish these cauils are which are taken of ambiguitie of words and misconstruing of phrases cleane contrarie to my meaning expressed in plaine euident tearmes and hundreth times at least in these my bookes namely that the Church although it be persecuted by tyrants assaulted by heretikes vndermined by hypocrites enuyed and maligned by the diuell himselfe yet the gates of hell shall neuer preuaile against it to roote it out of the worlde or to hinder the saluation of any one true member thereof Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee S. Iustinus If these doctors haue erred saith Bristow in any thing yet this thing is notable that not so much as in any one of their errors they are of your side A notable matter in deede that we hold not so much as any one error which they did hold But you wil not say the contrary for shame but that we hold many truthes which they helde We resist you say their ful whole consent That is vtterly false you haue not their ful whole consent for any point of popery prayer for the deade is the oldest error you haue except the superstition of Angels and the pharisaicall doctrine of iustification Shew me the ful whole consent of al the fathers for it whose writings are extant shewe me Iustinus Irenaeus Origenes Cyprianus Clemens Alexandrinus or any within 200. yeares after Christ except Tertullian a Montanist that in his writings maintaineth prayer for the deade But you will tell vs whereto you papists ascribe infallible truth First to the canonical scriptures tradition of the Apostles to the decrees of Peter his chayre to the whole church to the conseÌ„t of fathers councels both generall and prouincial confirmed by Peters successor We know this wel inough but I doe rehearse it in your owne termes that it may appeare you are not ashamed to match diuerse autorities equal in truth infallible with the holy scriptures inspired of God that alone are able to instruct a man to saluation and prepare him to euerie good worke For these autorities you vrge not onely where they agree with the scriptures but also wher you blasphemously suppose the scriptures to be vnperfect as that they haue omitted any thing needeful to saluation or the aduancement of Gods glorie in true religion The errors of the fathers we doe not reueale to their dishonour but to the honour of God Let God onely be true euery man a lyer yea Peter Peters successor a thousand times Whereas you take vpon you to mitigate the errors of the fathers named in the title you labour in 〈…〉 e we know they erred not of malice but being de 〈…〉 ued with similitude of trueth But where you say it 〈…〉 s no great matter for Irenaeus Papius and other to 〈…〉 ue erred in the opinion of the Chiliasts vntill the Church had condemned peraduenture that opinion in the heretiks called Mellenaries you shewe what certeintie of trueth you haue out of the scriptures yet you make it but a peraduenture that the Church hath condemned that error Last of all where you say in excuse of the error of Iustinus concerning angels that expresse mention is made Gen. 6. of the sinne of the Angels calling the translation of the septuaginta authenticall which translateth the Angels of God insteede of the sonnes of God you geue great cause of suspicion that you are not cleare of that error your selfe 3 Touching second mariages and S. Hierom. Where I say Act. 35. it seemeth that the Church in the 〈…〉 me of Iustinus was in some error about second marriâ—ges and diuorcement Bristowe is angrie that I
of the condition of all infantes which is not chaunged by baptisme although sinne be not imputed vnto them Wherefore to speake after your Popishe supposition of Baptisme that by the worke wrought all sinne committed before baptisme is abolished in baptisme what if the infant not knowing the mysterie of baptisme be angry with them that haue taken him out of his warme clothes and plunged him in baptisme is this no sinne But what infant can examine himselfe of this sinne And what can the examination of other men profite him whome the holy Ghoste will haue to examine himselfe As for the distinction of Votum explicitum implicitum he sendeth vs to Allens booke de Euch. lib. 1. Cap. 31. c. For how can we be assured that children haue a close desire to baptisme more then to the cōmunion Or how can it be proued That they haue any desire explicite or implicite to either of both the sacramentes If 〈◊〉 be lawful to imagine of infantes against all reason and without all scriptures wee may fill bookes with distinctions and deuises innumerable Last of all hee chargeth mee with falsification by adding because the councell of Trent saith that manner was aliquando in quibusdam locis some times and in some places But I pray thee Bristowe what haue I falsified the councel of Trent which thou affirmest that I did neuer read Thou sayest they that did communicate infantes were not so many as Fulke doeth make them Why howe many doe I make them I sayde that the Pope of Rome and all they that tooke his part in S. Augustines time were in this error that the sacrament of the bodie and bloude of Christ was to bee ministred to infantes And haue I not playnely and now also plentifully prooued it out of Saint Augustine where is then this falsification If I had not prooued that which I sayde yet there is difference betwixt falsification and a false affirmation And because the Tridentine councell sayth it was Aliquando as though that error had not long continued it is manifest that it began to bee ministred to infantes before Cyprians tyme and continued fiue or sixe hundreth yeares after Witnesse Beatus Rhenanus in Tertulli de Coron mil. where he sheweth that this manner was continued vntill the times of Ludouicus Pius and Lotharius and after citing these wordes out of the bookes of ceremonies called Agendae of infantes newely baptised Si Episcopus c. If the Bishop be present it must bee immediately confirmed and then communicated If the Bishop bee not present before the infante doe sucke or taste any thing let the Prieste giue him the communion of the body and bloude of CHRIST yea before the Masse if necessitie require By this Testimonie it appeareth not onely that this custome was long obserued but also that it was ioyned with opinion of necessitie so that masse should not be taried for if the infant were in any danger Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later tymes and not of olde and 1. touching the bodies of Angels According to the demaunde of the challenger which requireth any one error or false interpretations of the scripture made by the Popishe Church to bee shewed him I bring certayne examples of diuerse kindes of errors which are not the matters in controuersie betweene vs but such as if the Papistes bee not impudent they them selues will acknowledge to bee errors Now commeth Bristowe in this his balde and confusd reply and as though I were able to note none errors of the Popish Church but those which I note vpon such occasion willeth all them that would know the true Church to consider that these errors if they bee any are so fewe and so light that they may bee a sure confirmation to Papistes and a iust motiue to all other to embrace the Church of this time no lesse then of olde time considering it is no lesse but much more vnreproueable of the aduersarie Neuertheles as few and as light as these errors seeme they are sufficient if they were but one to proue that which I intend namely that the Popishe Church hath erred which being proued the surest piller of Poperie is broken and all the rest of their opinions which they holde against the scriptures the true Church of God when it is shewed that the popish Church hath erred will shewe themselues to bee errors which had nothing else to gayne them credite but this one false principle That the Popishe Church can not erre And touching the bodies of Angels where I say Ar. 60. the seconde councell of Nice determined that Angels and soules of men had bodies were visible and circumscriptible and therefore must bee paynted affirming this to be the iudgement of the Catholike Church Bristowe answereth that I misreport the matter for it is not the councells determination nor saying but the saying onely of Ioannes Bishoppe of Thessalonica rehearsed in the councell with an admonition giuen by Tharasius B. of Const against the madnes of them that ouerthrew the images of our Lorde his vndefiled mother seeing this holy father doth shew that Angels also may be painted But the trueth is as may apeare to euery man that wil read the Councel act 5 that this is a vaine glosse of Bristow to elude the matter After the saying of Ioannes is rehearsed in which this grosse error is conteined Tharasius the archb of Const. thereupon concludeth Ostendit autem pater quòd angelos pingore oporteat quando circumscribi possunt vt homines apparuerunt This father sheweth that we ought to paint the angels also seeing they may be circumscribed haue appeared as men by which it is manifest that Tharasius approueth the opinion of Ioannes Would you now haue the determination of the Councel It followeth immediatly Sacra synodus dixit etiam domine The holye synode sayde yea forsooth my lorde By this it is manifest that not I but Bristow hath misreported the matter Where I sayde If this be not to induce an errour to make men beleeue that angels and spirites haue bodies visible and circumscriptible there was neuer any errour since the world began Bristowe pulleth me backe and saith Soft man other manner of errours haue beene defended since the world began I wot well greater but if any of them be a manifest errour this is as manifest as any of them all Yet is Bristowe so zealous in excusing this error that he shameth not with that ignorant bishop of Thessalonica to slaunder many of the most catholike and auncient fathers with it Basilius Athanasius Methodius yea Augustine he sayeth make a question of it In which poynt he sheweth great ignorance or wilfull malice For whatsoeuer is founde in any of those auncient writers sounding to such a purpose it onely by mistaking the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or corpus which they vsed generally for that which nowe in the schooles according to Aristotle is called 〈◊〉
Popes superioritie ouer the councell And thirdly that by his presidents he accepted such preâ—idency as the councell woulde graunt without all iuâ—isdiction of compulsion being himselfe compelled to â—â—taine that order of proceeding which the councell before â—is presidencie was admitted had obserued What Leo â—he tenth in his Laterane councell decreed against the â—ouncell of Basil I haue nothing to doe with it except 〈◊〉 be to proue that one pope going against the decrees of â—nother pope and one councell against another that â—either of both is to be credited Howe childish my inâ—ultation is howe voide of victorie my triumph howe â—nsoluble forsooth mine arguments are as Bristow scofâ—eth I leaue to all reasonable men to consider 3. Touching the Constance councels presumption I sayd it was horrible praesumption that the councell of Constance decreede contrarie to the worde of God in plaine wordes That notwithstanding Christ instituted the sacrament to bee receiued in both kindes and that the faithfull in the primitiue Church did so receiue it yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuaile and whosoeuer saith contrarie it â—an heretike These wordes he saith I print as though I were a printer which was 70. miles off at least from the place where they were printed in a distincte letter as the plaine wordes of the councell whereas these are not the wordes of the councell Heere is the quarell No sir I neuer ment to print these wordes as the wordes of the councell but as the summe and contente of them which because they were large I woulde not set downe at large in a bymatter But now being urged with falsification or at least false collectioÌ„ I wil set theÌ„ down as they a 〈…〉 CoÌ„ Const sessâ— 13. wtout any such interruptions as is vsâ—al with you to make that you might carie away the simple readen mind from the true sense of theÌ„ Cùm in nonnullis c. wheras in certaine partes of the worlde certeine parsons presume rashly to affirme that Christian people ought to receiue the sacrament of that Euchariste vnder both kindes oâ— bread wine do communicate the lay people euerie where not onely vnder the kind of bread but also vnder 〈◊〉 kinde of wine yea after supper or otherwise not fasting and stubbernely affirme that they ought so to be communicated against the laudable custome of the church resonably approued which as sacrilegious damnably they goe about to reproue hereof it is that this present holy generall councell of Constance lawfully gathered together in the holyghost entending to prouide for the saluation of the faithfull against this error hauing had before ripe deliberation of many Doctors both of the lawe of god and of man declareth decreeth defineth that although Christ after supper did institute minister vnto his disciples this holy sacrament vnder both kindes of bread wine yet this notwithstanding the laudable authoritie of holy Canons the approued custome of the Church hath obserued doth obserue that this sacrament ought not to be made after supper neither to be receiued of the faithful not fasting but in case of sicknesse or other necessitie of right or of the Church graunted or admitted And as this custome to auoide certeine daungers and offences is reasonably brought in that although in the primitiue church this sacrament was receiued of the faithfull vnder both kinds afterward of theÌ„ which make it it is receiued vnder both kinds of the lay people only vnder the kind of bread seeing it ought most stedfastly to be beleeued by no meanes to be doubted but that the whole bodie and bloud of Christ is truly coÌ„tained as wel vnder the kind of bread as vnder the kind of wine WhervpoÌ„ seeing such a custome by the church holy fathers is reasonably brought in hath beene very long obserued it must be takeÌ„ for a law which it is not lawful to reproue or with out the authority of the church to change at mens pleasure â—herfore to say that to keep this custom or law is sacrilege 〈◊〉 vnlawfull it ought to be iudged erroneous and they â—hich stubbernly affirme the contrary of the premisses are 〈◊〉 be driuen away as heretiks to be greuosly punished â—y that dyocessanes of the places or their officials or by the inâ—uisitor of heretical prauity in those kingdomes or proâ—inces in which any thing perhaps shal be attempted or â—resumed against this decree according to the Canonicall â—nd lawful functions which haue ben solemnly inveÌ„ted 〈◊〉 fauour of the Catholike faith against heretikes and â—heir fautors Here you see the prelates of the councel take â—pon theÌ„ as great authority in altering the matter of the saâ—rament which is a necessarie part of the institutioÌ„ therof â—s in ordering the time in which it shal be ministred which â—s no part of the institution therof Also that they confes that â—n the primitiue church the sacrament was receiued in both â—inds therfore they are presuÌ„ptuous to say hoc noÌ„ obstaÌ„te â—his notwtstaÌ„ding the custome of later yeares brought in â—s reasonable shal be obserued as a law the gainsayers â—herof being coÌ„deÌ„ned punished as heretikes Brist caâ—illeth that they say not the custome of the church of Rome as I said As though wheÌ„ they speake of the custome of the church they meane any other church but the church of R. Such bables B. hath to couer their blasphemous sacriâ—legious presumption Touching certain false interpretations of scripture To color the false interpretatioÌ„s folowing he coÌ„meÌ„deth the sayings of August de doct Christ. li. 1. ca. 36. lib. 3. ca. 27. in which first he requireth euery maÌ„ principally to shoote at that sense of the writer in expositioÌ„ of the scripture but if he misse that sense hit any other which is not repugnant to right faith or is profitable to build charity towards god our neighbor he is not perniciously deceiued c. VpoÌ„ this Allen in his offer to that protestaÌ„t saith Ar. 86. 87. Let any man proue vnto me that the true only church of god may falsely interprete any sentence of holy scripture I recant This generall offer without any qualification of not erring perniciouslye or wilfully lying as is conteined in Saint Augustines sayinges vnto whiche Bristowe woulde nowe seeme to make relation I did accept And first I proued that pope Innocent with S. Augustine and all the Westerne Church did falsely interprete this scripture Ioan. 6. Except ye eate c. and that to maintaine a false opinion of the necessitie of the communion for all persons and euen infantes that should haue life euerlasting and therefore repugnant to right faith as is more declared in the 2. part of this chapter Secondly I noted diuerse places of scripture not onely falsely but also ridiculously expouÌ„ded in the second councell of Nice to maintaine idolatrie against the expresse commaundement of God and therefore contrary to the right faith
your doctrine because you doe not iustifie it by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures But the faithfull you thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beleeued them vppon their owne worde both Christ and his Apostles because of the spirite of trueth that he sent to them And God be thanked we as faithfull men acknowledge without controuersie the spirite of trueth in Christ and his Apostles But he hath not sent his spirite to them onely sayeth Bristow but also to his Church after them for euer We doubt not but he hath giuen his spirite to his Church but not in such full measure as to his Apostles And if he had how should wee knowe that Church that hath the same spirite but by tryall of the scriptures which were vndoubtedly written by the same spirite Bristow saith the faithfull will no lesse beleeue the Church at all times for the same spirite then the Apostles He must first proue the spirite so giuen to the Church that shee can no more erre in her decrees then the Apostles could in their writings Secondly if that were proued the tryall of the Scriptures is necessary to discerne the true Church from all false congregations which all boast of the spirite of trueth as much as the true Church And seeing the holy ghost by his instrument S. Iohn biddeth vs not beleeue euery spirite but trye the spirites whether they be of God we knowe none so sure a triall as the consent of their doctrine with the holy scriptures whether it be a multitude of men or seueral persons of one age or another of one degree or other that offreth to teache any doctrine which he or they pretende to haue of the spirite of God Last of all where I sayde Age can neuer make falshod to be trueth and therefore I wâ—y not your prowd bragges worth a strawe Bristowe noteth in the margent It is pryde to follow the fathers and humilitie to condemne them Whereto I aunswere to boast of the fathers to maintaine an olde errour is stinking pryde and it is not against true humilitie to make fathers and mothers and all things else subiect to the trueth of Gods worde reuealed in the holy scriptures The second parte Being tolde that the question betweene vs is not as he maeketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the expositors he maketh the same exception of onely scripture requiring also scripture to be expounded by scripture When in all this Chapter you deny onely scripture to be of soueraine authoritie sufficiency and credite to teache vs all the will of God are you not impudent to saye the question is not of the authoritie of the Scriptures But I supposing the controuersies to be of the meaning and not of the authoritie Pur. 363. do aunswer nothing whether the likelihood bâ— on our side or on the auncient doctors side for the meaning of the scripture What then I aunswere the question of the meaning of the scriptures is needelesse in that controuersie where some of the doctors confesse prayer for the dead not to be grounded on the Scriptures other wrest the Scriptures so manifestly that the Papistes them selues are ashamed to vse those textes for such purposes This aunswere I trust will satisfie reasonable men for that controuersie After this he sayeth I count my selfe and my companions happie for such blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures only out of the Scriptures without the coÌ„mentaries of doctors but as he troweth not without the coÌ„mentaries of Caluine But herein as in all things almost he belyeth mee for I neuer spake word against the reading of the coÌ„mentaries of doctors in search of the Scriptures meaning but onely against absolute credite to be giuen to their exposition without weying how it agreeth with the holy Scriptures in other places Likewise where I compare the whole heape of superstition errour out of which Allen raiseth a mist of mens deuises to a dunghill Bristowe noteth that I make the doctors writings a dunghill Surely what superstition or errour so euer be in the doctors as the sweeping of a faire house is meete to be cast on a dunghill Let Bristowe or Allen if he list say there is no superstition or error in any of the doctors And yet it followeth not that the doctors writings are a dunghill more then that a kings pallace is a dunghil because the sweepings thereof are meete for the dunghill To passe ouer his rayling termes of drunkennesse blindnesse c. Let vs come to the meaning of the scriptures where I sayde wee shalbe neuer the more certeine of the trueth whether wee challenge or leaue the likelihod of vnderstanding the scriptures to the doctors Bristowe aunswereth whosoeuer expoundeth the scripture vnto that wherein the doctors doe agree shall bee euer most certaine of trueth which is inoughe though not alwayes certain of that same verie places meaning Wee are then much the neere when the question is of the scriptures meaning if by the consent of the doctors we cannot be certaine of the scriptures meaning And if that trueth as we beleeue that all trueth is in the scriptures howe can we be certaine of the trueth by the agreement of the doctors where we cannot be certain of the meaning of the scriptures Where I aunswere that wee haue our measure of Gods spirite as the doctors had although wee agree not with them in all interpretations euen as Cyprian and Cornelius were both indued with Gods spirite although they agreede not in exposition and iudgement of the scriptures Bristowe replyeth that Cyprian was of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè though explicitè hee were of an erronious iudgement And so is euerie Catholike erring of ignorance in effect of the trueth with other Catholikes not erring because hee qâ—eâ—ly continueth in vnitie with them and doth not obstinately holde his error against them But so is not the case betweene the olde Doctors and vs for neither will wee bee reformed by them neither woulde they be reformed by Aâ—rius Iouinianus c. whom he calleth our forefathers If you haue no greater diuersitie then this the case will be all one for neither woulde Cyprian be reformed by Cornelius neither woulde Cornelius bee re-Formed by Cyprian But if the olde Doctors had heard as good reasons against prayer for the deade of Catholikes in their time as wee can make in this time although they woulde not bee reformed by Aerius an heretike yet charitie moueth vs to thinke they would haue yelded to the trueth reuealed by a Catholike Where I conclude that the harde places of scripture are best vnderstoode by conference of the easier adding the ordinarie meanes of witt learning c. adding that whosoeuer is negligent in this search may eaâ—ie bee deceiued Bristowe noteth a comfortable do 〈…〉 rine for the ignorant forsooth As though any Christi 〈…〉 man or woman ought to bee ignoraunt in the 〈…〉 riptures
not say that S. Paul might be deceiued in his writings epistles no more may the Church be I answere if S. Paul had proceeded further in prophecying then according to such knowledge as he had by reuelation argumentation out of the scriptures he might haue erred That he did not erre in his writings it was not because it was impossible for him to erre but because he did write nothing but that he had either by reuelation of Iesus Christes spirit or by argumentation out of the holy scriptures And therfore except the church haue such warrant as the Apostles elders had by reuelation the Scriptures Act. 15. she cannot truely say It hath beene thought good to the holy ghost vs. The 3. text is Ar. 88. where I saye It is true that S. 〈…〉 gustine saith euen the whole Church is taught to say 〈…〉 ry day Forgiue vs our trespasses But why so saith 〈…〉 stow because the whole Church doth erre in her de 〈…〉 minations euery day It were ridiculous so to say 〈…〉 t Augustine speake for vs both Propter quasdam igno 〈…〉 tias infirmitates membrorum suorum for certaine ig 〈…〉 rances and infirmities of her members The whole 〈…〉 urch for the ignorance of her members must say for 〈…〉 ue vs our debts but the whole Church neede not say 〈◊〉 except she may be deceiued through the ignorance of 〈…〉 r members therefore the whole church may be decei 〈…〉 d Apostles and al which did not erre in their writings 〈…〉 d determinations because it was impossible for them 〈◊〉 to doe whatsoeuer they had written or determined 〈…〉 t because in their writings and determinations they 〈…〉 ere directed by such reuelation as they had according 〈◊〉 the holy scriptures The 4 text is that the whole synagogue did erre but 〈…〉 ot the Church of Christ and that but in a fact not in 〈…〉 octrine nor the whole synagogue but a peece onely 〈…〉 hich was the example of Dauid carying the Arke of 〈…〉 od vpon a newe Chariot which should haue ben cary 〈…〉 d vpon mens shoulders 1. Chron. 13. So that there be no 〈…〉 sse then three walles saith Bristow betweene the Church 〈…〉 nd your shotte But by the grace of God I will shewe 〈…〉 hat they are al but paper walles that are erected against the trueth of â—od to binde it to the persons or places of men First saith Bristowe it was the synagogue and not the Church of Christ. Why Bristow was not the Church of Christ before Christ came into the flesh at least remember that S. Paul writeth 1. Cor. 10. Al our fathers were baptised and communicated with the bodie and bloude of Christ or else finde vs some other way of saluation then in the bodie of Christ whose member whosoeuer is not is sure of damnation or say that the Iewes being the members of the bodie of Christ were not the Church of Christ. The second wal that this was a fact and no doctrine is soone blowne downe if wee doe consider that the fact had neuer beene attempted but that it was tho 〈…〉 lawfull and Godly which was an error in doctrine The thirde wal is That the whole synagogue erred noâ— For he did not consult with the priest saith Bristow w 〈…〉 with his Tribunes Centurions nobles but onely w 〈…〉 the Lordes temporall hereupon he noteth my be 〈…〉 ly blindnesse but much rather may I note his m 〈…〉 strous and more then beastly impudence where the 〈◊〉 according to his own vulgar translation addeth to th 〈…〉 whom he nameth Et ait ad omnem coeâ—um Israel and 〈◊〉 the whole congregation of Israel If it please you quoâ— he and if the motion be of God let vs sende vnto 〈◊〉 rest of our brethren in all the coastes of Israel and 〈◊〉 the priestes and Leuits which dwell in the suburbs of the ciâ—ies that they may be gathered vnto vs c. These saith Bristowe were as you woulde say the hedge priestes Very well ergo all the heade priestes were present For otherwise howe coulde it be a perfect congregation of Israel where there wanted the principall members of the priests and Leuites for their tribe and degree And when he saith let vs sende to the rest of our brethren and those which he sent to of that degree were none but 〈◊〉 it were hedge Priestes as Bristowe affirmeth who will doubt but the chiefe Priestes were present except hee thinke they were not brethren vnto the rest But three monethes after saith Bristowe hauing founde out his error he gathered not onely all Israel â—â—d Ierusalem but also the sonnes of Aaron Sadoc and Abiathar c. 〈◊〉 though they were no part of Israel But these saith Bristowe he gathered as two Bishoppes and six other as it were Archdeacons and said vnto them You that are the heades of the Leuiticall families prepare your selues with your brethren and bring the Arke of our Lorde God of Israel to the place which is dressed for it least that as before because you were not present our Lord did smâ—te vs so nowe also it happen for our vnlawfull doing The words that Bristowe taketh holde off in his vulgar translation are that these principall priestes and Leuâ—tes were not present which as before it is proued 〈…〉 e so are they not in the Hebrew text LO ATTâ—M No◠〈…〉 the verbe is vnderstood which is in the senteÌ„ce before 〈…〉 t omitted which now they were commaunded to do 〈…〉 t is to carie the Arke So the sense is because you did 〈◊〉 carie it and not because you were absent For beside 〈…〉 t hath beene saide before of all the cheefe Priestes in 〈…〉 nerall howe coulde it be saide that Aminadab one of 〈◊〉 sixe was absent when the Arke was first brought 〈…〉 t of his house who if he had not ben deceiued should 〈…〉 ue tolde the king of his error before The 5. text is Ar. 86. where I say the true and onely 〈…〉 rch of Christ can neuer be voide of Gods spirite and yeâ— she◠〈…〉 y erre from the trueth and be deceiued in some thingeâ— â—uen 〈…〉 there is no true Christian man that is voide of Gods spirite ye◠〈…〉 y euery true Christian erre c. This my sophisme saith 〈…〉 istowe consisteth in speaking confusely of Gods spi 〈…〉 e as though the gift of it were one in the whole church 〈…〉 d in euery particular true Christian man But I say 〈…〉 t cleane contrarie to that he chargeth me I distin 〈…〉 ish of the gift of the spirite of God concerning adop 〈…〉 n that is in euery one of the faithfull by which hee 〈◊〉 priuiledged from erring vnto damnation and the 〈…〉 rite of trueth which is not giuen in such measure ei 〈…〉 r to the whole Church or to euery member but that 〈…〉 ey may erre in some thinges though not finally in 〈…〉 atters necessarie vnto saluation As for the promise 〈…〉
found in them 1. Tim. 3. Now commeth Bristowe to answere such things as I obiect out of Augustine against vnwritten traditions which he digesteth into three sorts The first are quotations of 11. or 12. places in which he preferreth the autority of the canonicall Scripture before all writinges of Catholike Doctours of Bishops of Councels before all customes and traditions But this Bristow denieth to be the question but whether nothing but Scripture be of authoritie I aunswere those places proue that nothing is of infallible veritie but the scriptures therfore they proue that they only are of irrefragable authoritie The second sorte of places are about this question who hath the true Church Of which question I affirme that S. Augustine would haue the Church sought only in the Scriptures And heâ—e he biddeth me reade his first demande likewise I wil send him to mine answer vnto the same At length he confesseth that Augustine is content in that question to set aside all other authorities to trie it by the Scriptures But that nothing els is good authoritie in that question that he neuer sayeth Neither doe we say it or refuse any authoritie that is agreeable to the Scriptures And as that one question which was betweene S. Augustine and the Donatistes was determinable by the onely authorititie of Scriptures so are all questions that are betweene the Church of all times and all heretikes The Donatistes helde that the Church was perished out of all partes of the world except Affrica as the Papistes holde that it is perished out of all partes except a peece of Europa Saint Augustine by the Scripture proueth the continuance in the Churche dispersed ouer all the worlde and that we holde against the Romishe synagogue of Popish Donatistes who haue separated them selues from the Catholike Church into the function of an Italian Priest as the other did of an Affrican But Bristowe sayeth I am as blinde as a beetle in saying that the Papistes did separate themselues from our Church seeing it is certain that Luther did separate him selfe from the Popish Church The like might be said to all them that forsoke the fellowship of any heretikes to come vnto the Churche of God But Bristow is as madde as a marche Hare that bragging so much of the title of the church he is driuen to trie it only by the Scriptures as Augustine calleth vpon the Donatists The other places which I aledge out of Aug saith Bristowe are about al questions with heretikes whatsoeuer As that he would oppresse the Arrian Maximinus with the authoritie of the Nicene councel Lib. 3. Cap. 14. Bristowe asketh whether he might not presse them with the authoritie thereof as he doth the Donatistes But aske Augustine him selfe who saith he ought not in that case that he charged the Donatistes which it was by their own concession because they allowed it But he saith in the same place the Fathers of the Nicene councell ratified Homousion that is equalitie of the sonne with the father Veritatis autoritate autoritatis veritate by authoritie of trueth and by trueth of authoritie This truth of authoritie Bristowe will haue to be the authoritie of the Nicene councell as though the councel could not erre but then what needed the authoritie of trueth In deede where the councel decreeth with the trueth it is the trueth of authoritie for other authoritie a Councell hath not but of trueth to declare trueth and not to make trueth for if it declare errour as the councell of Arimine did it hath no trueth of authoritie because it hath no authoritie of trueth Moreouer Bristow saith I translate falsely these wordes Nec ego huius autoritate nec tuillius detineris Neither am I bounden to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other Whereas it should be Neither doth the authoritie of the one hold me nor of the other holde thee There is greate difference betweene beeing holden and beeing bound To the bare authoritie of the councell of Nice Maximinus was no more bounden then Augustine to the bare authoritie of Ariminum It was the trueth of Nice that the Arrian was bounde vnto and the falshod of Ariminum that Augustine was not holden with vs. But after the example of Augustine saith Bristowe we will not alledge the councell of Trent as our proper witnesses to our side but the authoritie of Scriptures common to both Witnesse hereof Bristowes motiues where he would ouerthrowe vs by the bare name of Catholike and heretike c. Againe he saith that we make challenge of 600. yeares also And what then Witnesses of trueth we take wheresoeuer they be but authoritie of trueth onely out of the Scriptures Where I said that Augustine setting all other persuasions aside prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith and doctrine of the Churche Bristowe answereth Howe true that is appeareth in the same booke De Vnitate Eccle. which you cite For when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he saith expressely that to be inough also for all other questions Sufficit nobis It is inough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed too by most manifest testimonies of the holy and Canonicall Scriptures De Vnit Eccle. Cap. 19. Doth he say expressely it is inough for all other questions I must needes say expressely you lie For the onely question being how the Donatistes should be receiued if they would come to the Catholike Church as though they were the true Church because baptisme giuen among them was not repeated in the Catholike Church Augustine after much concertation saith Quapropter cum dicatur haereticis c. Wherfore seeing it is said to the heretiks Rightousnes is wanting to you which without charitie and the bonde of peace no man can haue seeing they theÌ„selues confesse that many haue baptisme which haue not righteousnesse and if they would not confesse it the holy Scripture conuinceth them I maruell howe they thinke when we wil not baptise them again hauing not their own but the baptisme of Christ that we do so as though we iudged nothing to be now wanting to theÌ„ that because baptisme is not giuen to them in the Catholike Church which they are founde to haue already they thinke they receiue nothing there where they receiue that without which that which they haue auaileth them to their destruction and not to their saluation Which if they wil not vnderstand it is sufficient for vs that we holde that Church which is shewed forth by most manifest testimonies of the holy and canonical Scriptures Where he speaketh not of the authortie of the Church to determine questions but sheweth it is sufficieÌ„t to haue proued by the Scriptures that they are the true Church although the Heretikes will not vnderstand how baptisme being ministred out of the Church hath not effect but in the true Church for if it be manifest by the Scriptures that Augustine holdeth the true Church that last question
of the doctrine of diuels and spirite of errour whose fruite is forbidding of marrying eating of meates 1. Tim. 4. which is hereticall and abhominable for what cause of religion so euer it be And seeing the Apostle chargeth them with hypocrisie it is more probable that he speaketh against the Papists than against those open blasphemers But howe proueth Bristowe that the Aerians were of the opinion of the Eucratites or Apotastites Forsooth because Augustine sayeth Quidam perhibent istos sicut Eucratitas vel Apotastitas non admittere ad communionem suam nisi continentes eos qui seculo ita renuntiaverint vt propria nulla possideant ab esâ—a tamen carnium non eos abstinere dicit Epiphanius Philaster verò hanc eis tribuit abstinentiam Some say that these men as the Eucratites or Apotastites do not admit into their societie but onely such as conteine from marriage and haue so renounced the world that they possesse no proper goods yet Epiphanius sayeth not that they abstain from eating of flesh but Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence The similitude which Bristowe by falsifying S. Augustine and displacing his wordes would haue to be in the whole sect of the Eucratites is onely in the abstinence from marriage and meates and possessions not in the opinion or cause for which they abstained For seeing Aerius was an Arrian he could not hold the pluralitie of Gods For the Arrians so held the vnitie of the godhead that they denyed the Trinitie of the persons in equall substance And although he were the scholer of Eustachius yet it followeth not that he held all pointes as his maister did Augustine chargeth him to haue added these matters of his owne Beside that diuerse of Eustachius articles differ little from the opinion of the Papists concerning the marriage of priestes and the abstinence from meates howsoeuer the papistes will not seeme to be so boysterous as Eustachius in denying the kingdome of heauen to them that marry and hope to them that eate fleshe yet Pope Syricius is affirmed to write that they which be marryed be in the flesh and cannot please God Ep. ad Him Tarrat And what a daungerous matter the Papistes count it to eate flesh in tymes by them prohibited all the world doth know 4 Of Ceremonies and Liturgies The church is S. Augustines times approued vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages because Augustine complaineth of them Ep. ad Ianuar. 118. and wisheth that they might be abrogated so soone as occasion serued Bristowe quarreling that my quotation is missing which was but the printers omission answereth that Augustine in the same epistle sayeth Tamen ecclesia c. Yet the church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And I reply notwithstanding that they may be vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages For so the same Augustine writeth in thesame Epistle Quamuis enim c. For although neither this can be founde howe they are against the faith yet they oppresse the religion it selfe with seruile burdens which the mercie of God would haue to be free with moste fewe and manifest sacraments of celebrations so that the condition of the Iewes is more tollerable which although they haue not knowen the time of libertie yet they are subiect to lawfull burthens not to humaine presumptions But Bristowe proceedeth and vrgeth an other saying of Augustine that if the whole church vse any thing it is a point of most insolent madnesse to call in question whether that should be so vsed I answere wee speake of approuing of vsages not of any thing that is generally vsed The church is S. Augustines time approued diuerse vnprofitable vsages by secrete consent without open abrogation which yet were diuerse in diuerse places Where I proue they were vnprofitable by this reason that many of them are abrogated he answereth that is no good argument for there might be good cause to abrogate them although they came of the tradition of the Apostles as the decree of not eating blood nor strangled Act. 15. and the custome of the Apostles and of the churches of God for men to praye and prophesie bareheaded To the former decree I reply that it was temporall and not meant by the makers to be eternall but to beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes for a time To the other custome of praying or preaching bareheaded whatsoeuer the pompous doctors of the popish church obserue I saye it is perpetually to be obserued for the distinction of the man and woman in couering and vncouering of the head and the obseruing of naturall comlinesse in both although for necessitie of health a nightcap kercheffe or such like couering according to the custome of the country be not absolutely prohibited As for the forbidding of solemne fastes and genuflections on sundayes which Bristowe sayeth was ordeined by the Apostles to plant the article of the resurrection and more straitly obserued of the church against the Manichees which might be abrogated nowe that article is receiued and the heresie extinct is but a dreame of his owne head without proofe so 〈…〉 et it passe although I knowe not what he meaneth to say that forbidding of solemne kneeling is still obserued for the papistes kneele as solemnely on sundayes as on other dayes As for the libertie the church hath in altering of ceremonies is neuer denied of me but fondly alledged of him which pretendeth that traditions of the Apostles are as necessarily to be obserued as commaundements of the scripture referring euery blynde ceremonie whereof he knoweth none author to tradition of the Apostles Nowe concerning the Liturgies he sayth Proclus answereth why Basil Chrysostome changed the auncient Liturgies that were before them he sayth forsooth they did but abridge and make shorter the Liturgie of S. Iames which was too loÌ„g for the peoples cold deuotion But his reason will soone proue all the three Liturgies that nowe are called by the names of S. Iames Basil and Chrysostome to be counterfeits for ther is small difference in the length of them and in a manner none at all As for the Councell of Constantinople in Trullo doth in deede name the Lyturgies of S. Iames Basil Chrysostome but that proueth not these which we haue at this day to be the same seeing there are manifest arguments to the contrary as of the Monasteries spoken of in that which goeth vnder the name of Iames and of Alexius the Emperour Nicholas the bishop in Chrysostome which were not borne many hundreth yeares after his death But that prayers for the dead were vsed in the ancient Liturgies that were before Chrysostomes tyme Bristowe sayeth he hath proued by plaine demonstration Cap. 3. where there is nothing but a saying of Chrysostome cited by me in Epist. ad Philip. Hom. 3 Non frustra c. It hath not been in vaine decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries memorie should be made
of the diuine scripture admonishing vs and will not be healed or reformed by the reprehensions thereof it is certaine that fire abideth vs which is prepared for sinners and we shal come vnto that fire in which of what sort euery mans work is the fire shall trie And as I thinke it is of necessitie that wee must all come vnto that fire Although one be Paul or Peter yet he commeth to that fire But they that are such do heare Although thou passe through fire the flame â—hal not burn thee But if any be a sinner like me he shal â—ome in deede vnto that fire as Peter Paul but he shall â—ot so passe through it as Peter Paul More of his geâ—eral purgation of al men and not the damned onely you â—ay read in Num. Hom. 25. Vides quomodo c. Thou seâ—st howe euery man that departeth out of the battel of this life hath neede of purification c. yet saith Bristow that of the purgation of such as die in gods fauour there is no word which although he speak of Augustin whose wordes he citeth Ad quod vult Hae. 43. yet he saith vntruely for thus he writeth in the same place Sunt alia c. There be other opinions of this Origen which the Catholike Church doth not receiue at all in which it doth not falsely accuse him neither can be so excused by his defenders especially coÌ„cerning purgation deliueraÌ„ce and againe after long time the reuolution vnto the same euils of euery reasonable creature I suppose he that speaketh of the purgation of euery reasonable creature speaketh of the purgation of such as die in Gods fauour also wherefore it is manifest that Origen erred not only about hell heauen and the purgation of the damned but also about the purgation of such as dye in Gods fauour Therefore Bristowe neede not gather mine argument as he doth in scorne There is no such Purgatorie as Origen Carpocrates would haue therefore there is no purgatorie at all But what should Carpocrates come in this title but for a sorie sophisme wheÌ„ we speake of Origen onely Wherefore if you wil giue mee leaue to frame mine argument although I meant not an argument out of Origens purging fire onely it should be thus There is no such purging fire as Origen would for them that dye in Gods fauour such as Origens fire is the fire that the papistes would haue therefore there is no such purging fire as the Papists woulde haue Releeuing of the dead by prayer If the dead be not releeued we say quod Bristowe as S. Paul saith they must indure a fierie and therefore a most painefull purgation And for this saying hee quoteth most impudently 1. Cor. 3. But I pray you Bristowe where saith S. Paul the deade must endure a fierie purgation or where maketh he any exception of their releeuing Hee saith the fire shall trie euery mans worke Is euery man onely some kinde of deade men or is euerie mans worke the man him selfe or is the triall of euerie mans worke of what sort it is a purgation either of the man or of the worke Arte thou not ashamed to charge S. Paul to say that whereof hee saith nothing at all euen by the iudgement of S. Augustine But that Aerius was not the first that denyed prayers for the dead to be profitable I shewed by that of the most auncient writers The Heracleonits among other their heresies were charged to burye their dead with inuocations and to redeem them with oyle balme and water and inuocations said ouer their heades as Augustine and Epiphanius shewe out of Irenaeus Nowe commeth Bristowe and in many needelesse words rehearseth other partes of their heresie with their manner of seasoning or receiuing those that beleeue in them by a counterfait marriage and baptisme and by anoynting with balme c. concluding that this practise of theirs maketh as much against true baptisme solemnizing of matrimony as against prayer for the dead anealing or anoynting c. Likewise might they conclude that all their ceremonies are as good as baptisme and marriage But whatsoeuer wee reade of the practise of heretikes we must learne to distinguish that which is their owne inuention from that which is the ordinance of God And how shall wee knowe Gods ordinance from heretikes inuention but by the holy scriptures Separating therefore baptisme and marrying which are the ordinance of God contained in the scriptures from the rest that haue no ground in the same prayers for the dead which they vsed with such like matters were the inuention of heretikes Howbeit saith Bristowe of prayer for the dead in all this was neuer a worde No was Howe read you Irenaeus lib. Cap. 18. out of which you cite so much could not see that after he hath spoken of their seasoning of their disciples aliue he telleth how they redeeme them when they are dead Alij sunt qui mortuis redimunt c. Other there be that redeeme the dead at the end of their departing powring on their heads oyle water or the foresaid oyntment with water and with the foresaid inuocations c Do you not heare the same prayers sayde by the heretikes for the dead which they vttered before for the liuing But if the Heracleonites should faile mee I affirme that Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes because Tertullian a Montanist vttereth al those pointes in such bookes as he made being a Montanist and especially in his booke de anima That Terrullian vttereth the opinion of the Papistes in all pointes Bristow wil not denye But he asketh whether all be Montanisme that Tertullian hath in that his booke de anima and in so many other bookes as he wrote being a Montanist No forsooth sir. But Montanus the heretike helde whatsoeuer he wrote in those bookes Howe then shall we discerne that which is proper to Montanus from that which he hath common with the catholike church I deliuered a rule euen nowe concerning the practise of the Heracleonites Prayer for the dead and Purgatorie are not found in the holy Scriptures but they are found in a disciple of Montanus therfore they stinke of Montanisme Adde hereunto that in so many bookes as Tertullian did write being a catholike there is no mention of prayer for the dead or suffering after this life of the faithfull Last of all Tertullian him selfe telleth you plainly that Paracletus the comforter by which he meant the spirite of Montanus had reuealed very often that euery small offence must be punished after this life in that the soule of any except martyrs shall not go immediatly into Paradise but tarie in prison vntil it haue payde the vttermost farthing What needed he to cite the authoritie of his Paracletus if he had spoken nothing but that which was commonly receiued in the catholike Church Which saying sith I haue set downe in Tertullians wordes in the page of Purg. 417. by
you quoted you needed not to haue made a question whether this opiniō were Montanisme or no. But when you can saye nothing against this assertion your selfe you would make me vncertein of it and say that it is but a light suspicion of mine because in one place before I come to the found proofe of it I say it is a probable coniecture And doeth it followe therefore that I doubt of it because I offer a probable coniecture to other mens vnderstanding before by order of the discourse I am brought to the manifest probation of it The other phrases by which you gather a doubtfulnesse shewe your ordinarie manner of collections And therefore it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes added prayers for the spirites of them that were dead c. Purg. 417. What vncerteintie is of that matter whereof it is not otherwise to be thought Againe Finally it appeareth that the faithfull in Tertullians time allowed no prayers for the dead Pur. 419. Call you that doubtfull which appeareth by plaine demonstration before pag. 417 But for all your fine frumpe in the margent all in Tertulian is Montanisme that Cyprian doth not mention it is a probable coniecture that prayer for the dead whereof Tertullian speaketh was vsed onely in the conuenticles of Montanistes because Cyprian which long after liued in Carthage in all his workes maketh no mention of prayers for the dead But I weene Cyprian maketh expresse mention of prayers for the dead by my confession as Bristowe would haue men thinke because I saye of one place alledged by Allen that it hath some couler for Purgatorie which by flowe of arguments I easely washe of that I neede not sticke in the lyme as Bristowe sayeth I doe but howe I am fastened therein he sayeth neuer a worde Oblations for the dead I sayde that oblations for the dead although at the first they were but of thankesgiuing were taken of the Gentiles as appeareth by Tertulliā who counteth them of one originall or beginning with oblations for the birth dayes falsely fathering them vpon tradition of the Apostles as he doth other vanities in the same place whereas those oblations pro natalitijs were taken from the Gentiles as witnesseth Beatus Rhenanus a Papist affirming that by the Canons of the Nicen councell and other councels which he had seene in librarijs they were abrogated and taken away Bristowe sayeth he is but a poore antiquarie which knoweth not that Natalitia in olde time were as they nowe are the dayes of Martyrs sufferings And yet he can name neuer an olde writer iustly that calleth them natalitia He nameth in deede Augustine in Psal. 118. Con. 30. Res. Insignita sunt tempora natalitijs martyrum the times are notably marked with the byrthdayes of Martyrs What print he followeth I knowe not but my booke hath natalibus and not natalitijs betweene which wordes there is some difference As for Martyrologies whether hee sendeth vs I knowe none of such antiquitie that they may be iudges in this case Tullie is a better witnesse what natalitia being a substantiue in olde time did signifie namely the feasts that were kept for the ioye of mens birthdaye in Ant. Hodie non descendit Antonius Cur Dat natalitia in hortis Antonie commeth not downe to day Why so He keepeth the feaste of his birthdaye in his garden Wherefore Pamelius as great an antiquarie as you make him vniustly reproueth Rhenanus for vnderstanding natalitia in Tertullian to be feastes of the birthdayes vsed after the example of the Gentiles The places you cite out of Cyprian speake neither of natales nor natalitia but of celebrating oblations and sacrifices for the commemoration or remembrance of the Martyrs sufferings which could be none other but sacrifices of thankesgiuing according to your owne doctrine Wherefore you shewe nothing to the contrary but that Tertullian vsing the worde natalitia vnderstandeth it for feastes of the birthdaye and not of the death of Martyrs And beside the authoritie of Rhenanus and Tully for the signification of the worde natalitia I oppose against you these reasons First that he addeth not the name of Martyrs as all they that vse natalitia or natales for the daye of their departure but sayeth generally pro natalitijs Secondly that he spake immediatly before of oblations pro defunctis for the dead which you vnderstande for all faithfull departed out of the worlde therefore pro natalitijs signifyeth the oblation for the birth of all Christians come into the worlde Thirdly seeing he had before named oblations for the dead it were absurde to vnderstand pro natalitijs for the dead also without any more explication Fourthly if natalitia should signifie the feastes of the death of Martyrs as you say it will followe also which I do vrge of the place that oblations pro defunctis for the dead were but oblations of thankesgiuing as those for the death of Martyrs which are conteined in one worde or phrase As for that you adde out of Origen in Iob. lib 3. Wee celebrate not the daye of birth c. But the daye of death sheweth the custome of the Greeke Church and not of the Latine and their celebrating of their daye of birth with ioye and thankesgiuing as the daye of the beginning of felicitie and ende of all sorrowes vnto the deade cleane ouerthroweth your opinion of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead as in his time not yet entred into the Greeke Church Beside that he speaketh of the death of all men and not of Martyrs onely as you violently would wrest him Beeres to carry home the corpses He maketh a foolish quarell vppon my saying that George of Alexandria inuented beeres for lucres sake as the Papistes their bearing clothes and other toyes for funerall pompe And first he sayeth that George did not inuent beeres For Epiphanius sayeth he deuised to make the number of them certeine and without those that he ordeined no corps to be buryed and all for lucres sake Ep. H. 76. I neuer thought that they carryed dead men on their neckes like beastes to the graue before Georges dayes and therefore they had some kinde of comely carriage for them But I sayed truely that George inuented peculiar beeres for lucres sake as the Papistes vse their bearing clothes and like stuffe Secondly he sayeth I commend such ceremonies as are conuenient for laying vp of the corps I do so But superstitious beereclothes and other ceremonies of poperie so dearly payde for are neither needfull nor conuenient Againe he asketh whether I thinke it much that the Church should reape their carnalia to whome shee soweth spiritualia No verily but I could neuer learn out of the scriptures that bearing cloathes crosses candels torches c. were such spiritualia as the ministers of the Church ought to sowe Last of all where he asketh whether I would prouide a beere and bearing cloathes against I be buryed rather then to paye my dueties to
Neither doe you consider this that they cannot haue life which are expertes without part of the body and bloude of Christ seeing hee sayth himselfe Except you shall eate my fleshe and drinke my bloude you shall haue no life in you Agayne Contra Pelagianos Hypognost lib. 5. Si enim intelligeretis crederetis quare dixerit Dominus Non opus est san◠medicus c. If you did vnderstande you woulde beleeue wherefore our Lorde saide The whole neede not the Phisition but they that are sicke you would beleeue truely that they are not whole but wounded which are offered to be healed to our sauiour the Phisition at the station of Baptisme and that they shoulde not haue life except they eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud of him which is life For he him selfe hath said Except ye shall eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud you shal not haue eternall life in you and hee which eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud hath eternall life Howe therefore doe you promise the life of the kingdome of heauen to infantes not borne againe of water and the holy Ghost Non cibatis carne atque non potatis not fedd with the flesh of Christ and which haue not dronke the bloud of Christ which is shedde for the remission of sinnes For it is his decree If any man bee not borne againe of water and of the holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdome of heauen For to enter into the kingdome of heauen is none other thing but to liue in a blessed life which remayneth for euer and euer Beholde hee which is not baptised and he also which is depriued of the vital meate and cup is diuided from the kingdome of heauen c. To the like effecte hee writeth Contra duas Epist. Pelag. ad Bon. lib. 4. cap. 4. Si omnibus c. If reconciliation by Christ be necessarie for all men sinne hath passed oouer all men by which wee were enimies that we haue neede of reconciliation This reconciliation is in the lauer of regeneration and in the body and bloude of Christ without the which no not infantes can haue life in themselues Also Contra Iulian lib. 3. cap. 11. deriding his pietie that infantes shoulde be damned for not doing that which they coulde not doe he addeth Vbi etiam ponis c. where also wilt thou place them because they shall lacke life seeing they haue not eaten the flesh of the Sonne of mā nor drunke his bloude Also de peccatorū meritis remissione lib. 1. cap. 20. a place cited by Bristowe but mingled with many intersections of his owne as his maner is After Augustine hath rehearsed the text Ioan. 6. Except ye eate c hee addeth Quid vltrà querimus c. What seeke wee further What can they aunswere to this except stubbornes doe stretch their striuing sinowes against the constancie of the manifest trueth Or dare any man say this also that this sentence pertayneth not to infantes and that they may without the participation of this body and bloud haue life in them c Likewise cap. 24. he saith Optimè Punici c. Best of all the Christians of Africa do call baptisme it selfe nothing else but health and the sacrament of the body of Christ nothing else but life Whence but of an auncient as I thinke and apostolike tradition by which they holde it ingrafted vnto the Church of Christ that without baptisme and participation of the Lordes table no man at all can come not onely not to the kingdome of God but neither to health life euerlasting For this also the scripture testifieth according to those thinges which wee haue sayde before For what other thing doe they holde which call baptisme by the name of health but that which is sayde hee hath saued vs by the lauer of regeneration and that which Peter saith so also doeth baptisme in like manner saue you What other thing also doe they holde which call the sacrament of our Lordes table life but that which is saide I am the breade of life which came downe from heauen and the breade which I will giue is my fleshe for the life of the worlde And except ye shall eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shall haue no life in you If therefore as so many and so greate testimonies of GOD doe consent that neither health nor life eternall without baptisme and the body and bloud of our Lord is to be hoped to any body in vaine without these is it promised to Infantes Furthermore if from health and life eternall nothing but sinnes do separate by these sacramentes nothing but the guilt of sinne is loosed in infantes These places of Augustine I haue rehearsed the more at large that the impudencie of the councell of Trent and of their poore patrone Bristowe might appeare whiche would excuse the errour of the auncient Churche and of the Bishoppe of Rome in those times in saying that albeit they vsed to minister the communion to infantes yet they did it not for any necessitie to saluation whereas the contrary by so many places and more then I haue rehearsed doth most manifestly appeare As for the practise whiche he confesseth of giuing that sacrament to infantes he saith is not against Probet seipsum c. Let a man examine himselfe c. Because that infantes may examine them selues by others whiche is a monstrous kinde of speache as well as beleeue and repent by others Here is one errour of Augustine defended by an other of his for infantes are not baptized for the faith of other men but because they are comprehended within the covenant of GOD to whome baptisme is no more to be denied then circumcision was to the infantes of the Iewes The Prophet sayeth Iustus c. The righteous man shall liue by his owne faith It is not the faith of other men that can procure life vnto vs. Neither is faith required of infantes before they can heare the worde of God which is the onely ordinary meanes by whiche faith commeth But infantes sayeth Bristowe bee in no mortall sinnes being newely baptized and therefore they neede no examination for feare least they should come vnworthily Saint Augustine confesseth that hee was in mortall sinne euen in his infancie Imbecillitas membrorum infantium innocens est non animus infantium The weakenesse of the members of infantes is innocent not the minde of infantes Afterwarde hee bringeth examples of enuie euen in an infant and at last concludeth Quod si c. And if it be so that I was conceyued in iniquitie and that in sinnes my mother in her wombe nourished me where I beseech thee my GOD when LORDE was I thy seruant where or when was I innocent By this you see there is no shorte time of mans life free from sinne Neither may you cavill that Augustine was not baptised in his infancie seeing he speaketh generally
of this booke of Bristowe I praye you sir Haue you perused and allowed thi◠booke What els doe you not see it printed in the first leafe Perused and allowed by mee Thomas Stapleton And are you so good a peruser and allower of bookes Maister Stapleton that you cannot espie in them Chalk taken for Cheese Doe you not see your scholer Bristowe alledge saint Cyrill a Greeke doctor to proue the truth of the greeke text lib. 7. in Ioan cap. 10. and when all commeth to all there is no such booke of Cyrill the auncient Greeke doctor extant but it is poore Iodocus Clicthouius a late Latine writer that hath supplyed those 4. bookes of Cyrill that are lost Wherefore to returne to you M. Bristow except your councel be better and sauour more of good learning and knowledge you may keepe it for your friendes As for your assertion without doubt that the copie which your authenticall translator followed had euen as hee translated helpeth you little or nothing which if it were graunted howe can you proue that hee translated it as you nowe reade it Seeing it is certainly knowne to them that haue conferred his translation with the originall that beside that in diuerse places he giueth not the true sense of the Greeke in many texts also he is corrupted where he had translated right Wherefore how fully I am aunswered on euery side cōcerning this text as you boast in the end let the readers iudge In the last place you set down my words Ar. 7. in which I accuse the Church of Rome for thrusting vpon vs that corrupt Latine translation which all learned men doe know to be corrupt in such texts as are the most coulerable places for the defence of popish doctrine of which I giue one example for all They allege the text 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat he that standeth let him take heed◠he fall not against the certaintie of faith where as the Greeke hath not hee that standeth but hee that thinketh he standeth c. Bristowe biddeth mee looke better in the text their translation is not as I charge it but euen as I say the Greeke to be Qui se existimat stare c And therefore in the margent he biddeth stand out of his light that the childe may see Might not I say shore vp your eyes syr Richarde and see that I doe not say the text is so translated but so alledged They alledge the text Qui stat videat ne cadat And if you require mine author who allegeth it so looke in Haymo vpon the verie place and you shall finde these verie wordes Qui stat in fide operibus videat ne cadat He that standeth in faith and workes let him see that he fal not And if you woulde haue a later writer that so alledgeth it looke in Gregory Martin one of your broode who in his booke of schisme alleageth it in so many wordes Qui stat videat ne cadat in the first chapter of his booke And what hath brought them to this vnderstanding but your corrupt translation Qui se existimat star◠hee that iudgeth or is perswaded that he standeth For existimare signifieth properly to iudge or esteeme vppon good groundes to thinke certeinely and not like putare which worde Ambrose vseth in the interpretation of this text and signifieth to thinke vainly And so is existimare vsed by your translator in other places Rom. 6. Ita vos existimate c. So you esteeme or iudge your selues to be deade vnto sinne c. And againe 1. Cor. 6 Sic nos existimet homo vt ministros Christi c. Let a man thus esteeme or iudge of vs as of the ministers of Christ. Againe Iac. 1. Omne gaudium existimate c. My brethren count it all ioy when you fall into diuerse temptations In all which places existimare signifieth to thinke certeinely not vainely as in this text 1. Cor. 10. It should be qui se putat stare he that vainely thinketh that he standeth let him take heede that he falleth not I confesse I might haue brought an hundreth places of scripture in which the corruption is more cleere vnto euery simple mans vnderstanding but this I tooke to be sufficient seing to proue the corruption of the translation was not the principall matter of the demaunde which I aunswered but to yeelde a reason why the popishe Church did not as wel corrupt the text of the Testament as the true doctrine conteined in the same CAP. VII That he hath no other shift against our manifolde Euidences so cleere they be but the name of only Scripture as well about ech controuersie as also about the meaning of the scripture it self And howe timerous he maketh vs and how bolde he beareth him selfe heereupon First he chargeth me with shamefull confessions that I haue been faine to make against mine owne side and for their side which what they are you haue heard alreadie and what shame I haue gotten by them and what aduantage their side hath of them Next he promiseth to shew the same more cleerly by running ouer those common euidences of Christian trueth out of which he framed his Motiues and demands which I confesse to be al against me because I take exception against them say that onely scripture is good euidence in such suits c. But what I confesse or deny of those euidences may best be seene in my Retentiue against his motiues and demaundes The first part Howe he excepteth by onely scripture against all other euidences in the controuersies that are betwene vs and first against the rule to knowe heresie c. Hee rehearseth many sentences of mine mangled interrupted with his owne glosses in which I professe that No opinion is heresie which is not contrary to the holy scriptures although it be accompted heresie of the worlde where hee slaundereth me to terme them the worlde which before I confessed to be the true Church The places Art 44. where I speak of them which preaching in these later times against poperie haue beene of the Romishe Church condemned for heretikes as Waldo Wickelief Hus c. In the processe following where I sayd that if Aerius had not bene an Arrian the opinion he held against prayer for the dead coulde not haue made him an heretike Bristow compting my saying to be blasphemie belike against the Popes kitchē addeth that it seemeth I knewe not the purpose of Augustine in his book de Haer. which he saith was the purpose of Epiphanius also not to confute but only to report of heresies that had benbefore his time Seeing it is inough to know that the catholik Churches iudgement is against thē And that it helpeth much the faithfull hearte onely to know what must not be belieued although he be not able to confute it by disputing And why seeme I ignorant of this purpose except it be because I said that neither Epiphanus
nor Augustine reproued by scripture that which in Aerius they coÌ„pted to be an error But the case is so cleare saith Bristow that the very aduersary confesseth that it was the Catholik Church that iudged Aerius to be an heretike Yea sir for his Arrianisme but I neuer coÌ„fessed neither can you euer prooue that any iudgement of the Catholike Church in general councel passed against Aerius for denying prayer for the dead before the dayes of Epiphanius or Augustine although the error of prayer for the â—ead in that age was commonly receyued not vpon any good ground of Canonical scripture but vpon a corrupt custome first brought in by heretikes Afterward where I following an allegorie of dogges vsed by Allen tell him that hee must not teach his scholers to barke baule against vs nothing but The Church the Church like â—inkers curres c. he cryeth out in the margent O worthy estimation that he hath of the Church as though I think lesse worthily of the Church because I deride the vaine boasting of the name of the Church in theÌ„ which are nothing lesse then the true church Neither do I appoint mine enimy not to inuade me with a gunne as he saith when I make the scripture onely to be my weapon both inuasiue and defensiue But it is a great absurditie as he â—weeneth that I say an heretike is he which in the Church obstinately mainteyneth an opinion contrarie to the scriptures seeing S. Iohn saith exierunt a nobis they are gone out from vs. And if an heretikee be a man in the Church we are cockesure with all heretikes and the Papistes onely in daunger Why Bristow make ye no difference betweene him that is in the Church and him the is of the Church They be not al meÌ„bers of the Church that be in the Church and therfore S. Iohn saith of them that are gone froÌ„ vs If they had bene of vs they would haue tarried with vs. And doe you account him an heretike that holdeth an error cleane out of the Church then may you count all Paganes Turkes and Iewes to be heretikes What say you of Antichrist that sitteth euer in the Temple of God it helpeth not heretikes that they rise vp in the visible Church from whence also they are often times cast out so long as they bee not members of the body of Christ which is the inuisible Church and heauenly Ierusalem which is the mother of vs all Where I sayde that whosoeuer holdeth an opinion obstinately which hee is not able to proue by the worde of God although hee haue many authors before him yet hee is neuerthelesse an heretike Bristowe addeth in the margent though it bee S. Augustine himselfe and though he holde the foundation heere cap. 5. Touching the former part I say not onely though it were Saint Augustine but although it were Saint Peter himselfe or an Angell from heauen Gal. 1. Touching the later parte I aunswere my meaning is of such opinions as are against the foundation and so is my whole discourse purg 412. whence this saying is borowed Agayne where hee concludeth that I confesse Aerius Iouinian and Vigilantius to haue beene condemned by the true Church of Christ in such poyntes of doctrine as wee agree with him I aunswere as before of Aerius alone I neuer made such confession In that I refuse to finde the firste authors of all their errors he saith I am faine to flee to my colde exception of onely scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not inough O sensible iustification by which all errors whose first authors cannot be found must be layd vpon the Apostles But most ridiculous of all is Fulke where he coÌ„meth in with this exception vpoÌ„ Tertullians rule Id esse verum c. That is true what soeuer is first that is false forged which is later But how shall the first doctrine bee knowne but by the worde of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught What is here I pray you to bee laughed at Forsooth Bristowe saith Tâ—â—â—ullian hath there an other rule against such heresies as presumed to say their founders liued in the Apostles time But this rule hee giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluine c. bidding vs consider what was taught and belecued immediatly before they arose for that vndâ—ubâ—â—dly is the trueth and their later doctrine is falshood But what if Bristow take Richard for Robert is not he then ridiculous The rule of Tertullian whereof I speake Purg. 410. Ar. 42. is written in his booke aduersus Praxeam although Allen doe falsely quote it de praescriptionibus But what if Tertullian euen in this rule giuen against heretikes in his booke de praescriptionibus doe expresly affirme the worde of God to bee the triall of that which 〈◊〉 former and true to conuince that which is latter and â—lse is not Bristowe most ridiculous of all His words â—e these Sed ab excessu reuertar ad principalitateÌ„ veritatis â—osteritatem mendaciâ—atis deputandam ex illius quoque parabo 〈…〉 patrocinio quae bonum semen frumenti a Domino seminatum â—rimò constituit auenarum aut sterilis foeni adulterium ab iniâ—ico diabolo postea superducit Propriè enim doctrinarum diâ—tinctionem figurat quia alibi verbum Dei seminis similiâ—do est Ita ex ipso ordine manifestatur id esse dominicum â—erum quod sit prius tradiâ—â—m id autem extraneum salâ—um quod sie posterius immissum Ea sententia manebit aduerâ—s posteriores quasque haereses quibus nulla constantia de conâ—ciencia compettt ad defendendam sibi veritatem But from this â—xcesse I will returne to shew the priority of truth poâ—terioritie of falshood euen out of the defence of the parable â—hich first of al setteth forth the good seed of wheat sowne â—y our Lorde and afterwarde bringeth on the counâ—erfeiting of Otes or baren grasse by the enemie the â—iuel For it figureth properly the difference of doctrines â—ecause elsewhere also the worde of GOD is the siâ—ilitude of seede So by the very order it is made maâ—ifest that to bee the Lordes true which was formost â—eliuered that to be straunge and false which is cast in â—fterward This decree shal remain against later heresies whatsoeuer which haue no constaÌ„cie of conscieÌ„ce to deâ—end the truth to be on the irside Where is there here any word of Bristows glosse of Tertullian bidding vs consider c I thinke he had not redde the place in Tertullian himself but followed some papistes collection vpon it and because hee coulde not auoyde that which I sayd hee thought it best by calling it so much and so often ridiculous to laugh it out as they say when hee was not able otherwise to aunswere it Likewise I sayd that we refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lyrinensis concerning antiquitie so you can prooue God to
gappe be shutt from any heresie to 〈…〉 a st it selfe of the tradition of the Apostles as the Va 〈…〉 tinians and other heretikes haue done and all he 〈…〉 ikes may do But tradition of the Apostles is as good as their wri 〈…〉 gs To this obiection I aunswere that their writings 〈◊〉 the onlye true testimonie of their tradition to vs. 〈…〉 stowe replyeth So were they not to the Thessalonians 〈◊〉 they had of S. Paul traditions partly by worde of mouth 〈…〉 tly by writing I reioyne that wee haue no traditions 〈◊〉 the Apostes but by their writing wee neuer hearde 〈◊〉 deliuer any thing by word of mouth but we know 〈…〉 ir writings contein the summe of their preachings Concerning the doubtfulnesse and contradiction that 〈…〉 yde was in the fathers them selues about those mat 〈…〉 s that are not conteined in the Scriptures Bristowe 〈…〉 nswereth first their doubts are not of the traditions 〈…〉 t of circumstances of persons and other matters con 〈…〉 ning the traditions which is as much as I shewed by 〈…〉 amples and testimonies out of their writings Purg. 〈…〉 7. Ar. 39. Pur. 317. The contradiction supposed to be in Chrysostome where he sayeth first that small helpe can be procured for the dead afterwarde he sayeth the Apostles knewe that much commoditie came to the dead by praying â—or them Bristowe aunswereth is none at all For in 〈…〉 e first place he speaketh of riche men which did not pro 〈…〉 e any comfort to their soules by their riches that their friends 〈…〉 n procure but little in respect of that they might haue procured 〈…〉 em selues because a mans owne workes are also meritorious 〈◊〉 euerlasting rewarde so are not his friends workes meritori 〈…〉 vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine 〈…〉 his owne nothing like But how a man 's owne workes 〈…〉 his friendes workes may be either meritorious or satisfactorious any thing at all he bringeth no proofe 〈◊〉 all And that he sayeth of Chrysostome is vtterly false for if istos be referred in the former sentence defleam 〈…〉 istos vnto those riche men so dying onely what reasoâ— is there why orantes pro istis should not be referred vnto them also But seeing the memory which he saiâ—â— was decreede of the Apostles was generall for all theâ— that departed in faith why should not that much profite comming thereby pertaine to them of whoâ—â— he sayde before that small helpe they could haue Likewise that I added further of the Cathecumeni whâ—â— Chrysostome iudged of helping them Bristowe pas 〈…〉 ouer and sayeth neuer a worde vnto it 3 Against the Churches authoritie I saye plainly the practise and authoritie of the church without the worde of God reuealed in the scriptureâ— is no rule of trueth Where I commende Tertull 〈…〉 for confessing that prayers and oblations for the dead are not taken out of the Scriptures Bristowe sayeth I am hastie to take that which Tertullian doth not giue as he hath shewed in the thirde chapter but seeing in the thirde Chapter he referreth mee to the 9. Chapter thither also will I referre him for answere Where Allen alledgeth a rule of S. Augustine Quòd legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi that the order of the châ—â—ches prayer saith Bristowe is euen a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beleeue because Fulke could not make his florish with that ende forwarde he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine D. Allen had sayed that the lawe of beleeuing should make a lawe of praying And here he cryeth out of falsification by changing So sayeth S. Augustine saith Bristowe in that sense speaketh S. Augustine often against the Pelagians sayeth Allen but in what booke or chapter neither of both doeth shewe among so many treatises as Augustine hath written against the Pelagians Wherefore if I haue altered the forme of wordes yet without falsification especially seing it is a more probable sense and agreeable to the scriptures 〈…〉 t faith should teach vs to praye rather then prayer 〈…〉 che 〈◊〉 to beleeue For howe shall they call vppon 〈◊〉 sayeth the Apostle in whome they haue not belee 〈…〉 d Rom. 10. But seeing there is a mutuall relation 〈…〉 weene the cause and the effectes the one argueth 〈…〉 oueth the other For as faith teacheth men first to 〈…〉 ye so the prayer is an argument of the faith accor 〈…〉 g to which it is conceiued But true faith com 〈…〉 th onely by hearing the worde of God therefore 〈…〉 e prayer commeth onely by hearing the worde of 〈…〉 d and is not acceptable to God except it be framed 〈…〉 ording to the worde of God After this he sayeth I 〈◊〉 as bolde to except against the practise commen 〈…〉 d euen in the canonicall scripture because I allowe 〈…〉 t the practise of Iudas Machabaeus conteined in the 〈…〉 phane and lying booke of the Machabees I sayde Ar. 86. There is neuer heresie but there is as 〈…〉 at doubt of the church as of the matter in question 〈…〉 erefore only the Scripture is the staye of a mans con 〈…〉 nce Hereof Bristowe gathereth this great absurdi 〈◊〉 Because heretikes make doubt of the Church this heretike 〈◊〉 that no Christian leane vnto it Yes verily I will haue 〈◊〉 men that know the Church leane to the Church de 〈…〉 ding truth against heresies but for them that doubt 〈◊〉 the trueth and of the Church I saye only scripture i◠〈◊〉 staye of their conscience to trye the trueth and the Church both seing both heretikes Catholikes make as great challenge to the Church as to the trueth But some heretikes make doubt of the Scriptures sayeth he either all or some peece as you doe of the â—achabees I aunswere if any denye all Scriptures 〈…〉 ey are more like Paganes and Atheists then heretiks 〈…〉 th whome wee are not to reason by authoritie of 〈…〉 riptures but by other inducements such as were 〈…〉 d to the Paganes Against those heretikes that re 〈…〉 iue some part of the Scriptures wee are to dispute 〈…〉 t of those Scriptures which they receiue as our saui 〈…〉 r Christ confuted the Saducees out of the bookes of 〈…〉 oses because they receiued none other Scripture For the book of Macha bees we doubt not but are certaine it is a prophane booke as I haue shewed by many arguments neuer receiued in the primitiue Church fâ—â— 400. yeares after Christ. Where I say we submitted our selues to al Churcheâ— but so that they allow no consent or submission but 〈◊〉 the trueth which must be tryed onely by gods wordâ— Bristow saith with that but so we wil consent the trueâ—â— to Iacke strawe Verily to consent vnto Iacke straâ—â— in truth I take it to be none absurditie but I speake not onely of consent but also of submission which we are not readie to yeeld to any but such whose authoritie 〈◊〉 reuerence As for the 4.
rules enacted by Parliament for condemning heresie if Bristow woulde vnderstand them like a quiet subiect and not deride them like a scornefull traitor he might vnderstand that the three later are not contrarie to the first which determineth heresie by contrariety to the canonicall scripture which is declared either in the 4. first general councels or in any other generall councell agreeing with the scripture or may vpon occasion be declared by Parliament hereafter Not that the Parliament euer did imagine that it had authoritie to make truth heresie or to make any thing heresie which is not contrary to the canonicall scriptures After this he chargeth me that I will not beleue the Apostles nor the Angels without scriptures What if I woulde not were I worse then the Thessalonians or Bereans which dayly searched the scriptures to see if those things that were taught by the Apostles were euen so Act. 17. But I abuse the scripture saith Bristowe and turne the curse that saint Paul pronounceth Gal. 1. which was of preaching as if it were of onely scripture I aunswere my wordes are these if any man teach otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed but seing wee haue no certeinty of the worde of God since the Apostles departure but the canonicall scriptures which doe containe al that they preached the same curse is rightly applyed to them that teach any other way of saluatioÌ„ then that which is taught in the holy Scriptures The rest of this diuision is spent in shewing that I hold 〈…〉 ill my exception of onely Scriptures against councels 〈…〉 he see apostolike and succession of bishops with a note 〈◊〉 the ende what a franklin I am to renounce such goodly euidence whereof if I had any couler my selfe 〈…〉 o mountybanke pedler is so facing and boasting as I â—nd my fellowes As franke as I seeme in renouncing â—hat goodly euidence I trust to be carefull enough to â—olde fast the euidence of eternall life which is the ho 〈…〉 y Scriptures of God and if I and my fellowes boast in â—hem because our boasting is in God I doubt not but â—ee shal be better accepted of him then they that count â—hat boasting a stale exception and boast in vanitie 〈…〉 ust in lying and at least make flesh for their arme â—heir heart departeth from the liuing God 4 Against the fathers Although I challenge the Papists to proue their do 〈…〉 rine of Purgatorie and prayers for the dead out of the 〈…〉 uncient catholike fathers that liued within 200. yeares 〈…〉 ter Christ because I knowe they cannot yet in that 〈…〉 allenge I say nothing contradictorie to my former 〈…〉 ssertion that onely the worde of God conteined in the 〈…〉 oly Scriptures is the iudge of all doctrine and tryall of trueth and stay of a Christian mans conscience against any thing that is taught to be beleeued vnto saluation or concerning the worship of God either contrary to it or beside it But Fulkes two onelyes sayeth Bristowe namely onely the moste auncient Church and only Scripture are vtterly without all ground and but 〈…〉 eere voluntarie If it be without grounde to make the worde of God the onely iudge of godlinesse and the most ancient Church the best witnesse thereof let euery Christian conscience consider As for the voluntarinesse â—f you vnderstand the challenges to be voluntarie beâ—ause you will not accept them let your will stande in 〈…〉 eede of reason but if you call them voluntarie because you neede not accept them and yet approue your selues good Christians remember who it is that sayth my sheepe heare my voice and not a straungers let euery man see whereto the bragge of antiquitie is come when you will not be tyed to the most auncient Churches testimony and the eldest writers of the same Nowe concerning other by quarrels and cauils whereas I sayde Whatsoeuer we finde in the fathers agreeable to the Scriptures wee receiue it with their praise and whatsoeuer is disagreeable to the scriptures we refuse with their leaue Bristowe noteth within a parenthesis He meaneth expressed in the Scriptures But who made him so priuie of my meaning my wordes import no such thing for many things are agreeable to the scriptures that are not expressed in them I borrowed my phrase out of S. Augustine Contra Crescon homil lib. 2. Cap. 32. which speaketh of Cyprian that which I spake of all the fathers in generall Ego huius epistolae authoritate non teneor q 〈…〉 literas Cypriani non vt canonicas habeo sed eaâ— ex canonicâ—â— considero quod in eis diuinarum scripturarum authori 〈…〉 congruit cum laude eius accipio quod autem non congruit cuâ— pace eius respuo I am not holden by the authoritie of this Epistle because I doe not account the writings of Cyprian as canonicall but I consider them by the canonicall and that which in them agreeth with the authoritie of the holy Scriptures I receiue it with his praise but that which agreeth not I refuse it with his leaue I thinke Bristowe will teache S. Augustine shortly by that which agreeth with the Scripture to meane onely that which is expressed in so manye wordes Where I sayde that when the fathers are opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the Apostles there is no cause that we should be carryed away with them Bristowe sayeth in the margent aâ— though we opposed the doctors to the Apostles And what call you this but an opposition of the doctors to the Apostles when wee saye The Apostles haue not taught prayers for the dead in any of their writings you aunswere but the doctors haue taught prayers for the dead in their writings Where I saye the authoritie of mortall men is not to be receiued he noteth our absurditie because not onelye Melancton and such like as Allen hath tolde â—s were mortall men but also in the same terme of mortall men are the Apostles them selues comprehended And what of this Doe wee buylde vppon the authoritie of Melancton or of Peter and Paul as they were mortall men No verily Wee buyld vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Iesus Christ beeing the corner stone and the onely author of the doctrine whereof the Prophets and Apostles are witnesses who spake and writte as they were moued by the holy ghoste and therefore their writings wee receiue as the worde of God which the spirite of God hath endyted by the penne of the Apostles Where I sayde We dare not depend vppon any one manâ—â—udgement for wee must depend onely vppon Gods worde Bristowe answereth Euen so dealt the vnbeleeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and â—ith Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles and Christ him selfe condescended to them accordingly And why do not you follow the example of Christ of his Apostles to winne so many thousandes as doe refuse
so farre forth as they teache the way of sal 〈…〉 ation otherwise it is no discomfort vnto them alâ—â—ough they vnderstande not euerie harde place of the â—criptures After this he gathereth that I place all in a mans owne 〈…〉 iligence to trust no man nor men but to reade the scriptures 〈…〉 onferre the places and so gather the meaning by him selfe So that with him it is nothing that saint Augustine saith 〈◊〉 Doct. Christ. libr. Chapter 6. where I receiued my 〈…〉 ule Magnificè igitur salubriter c. Magnificallye â—herefore and wholesomely the holy Ghost hath so 〈…〉 empered the holy scriptures that with open places hee â—ight satisfie hunger with darke places he might wype â—ff lothsomnesse for nothing in a manner is brought â—ut of those obscurities which may not bee founde in â—ome other place most plainely spoken It is nothing â—hat I require the holy ghost the author of the scripâ—ures by earnest prayer to bee obtained of the interpretors But if diligence may doe so much hee telâ—â—th vs of the greate diligence vsed in the Popes semiâ—arie for Englande vnder the gouernement of Doctor Allen which prooueth it selfe to bee a semiâ—arie of treason in much reading and conferring of the scriptures with all other helpes and meanes whereby they must bee more certaine of trueth then wee by mine owne rule No Bristowe not they that reade the scriptures with such minde as you doe without the extraordinarie grace of God shall neuer come to the knowledge of the trueth which they seeke not in them but the confirmation of their preiudicated erronious and hereticall opinions There is a fragment of Clemens cited in the decrees Dist. 37. Chapter Relatum which sheweth the lette of your vnderstanding and in the ende concludeth Non enim sensi 〈…〉 c. you ought not to seeke a forrain and straunge sense without the scriptures that you may by any meanes confirme the same by the authoritie of the scriptures but you ought to take the sense of truth out of the scriptures themselues Concerning the bragge of Hebrewe and Greeke texts to be proued against vs wheÌ„ we see the booke wee will shewe you our iudgement In the meane time if the authour shewe not more witte in suppressing his labour then you in vaunting of it before it come forth I assure you he will shewe himself to the world to haue neither learning wisdome nor honestic The 3. part What he meaneth by his onely scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against scripture I meane by onely scripture what soeuer is taught in plaine wordes or may be gathered by necessarie conclusion which is as good as expresse wordes For all trueth needefull for vs to knowe say I may be prooued by scripture either in plaine words or by necessarie conclusion which is all one Where I vrge Allen to shewe some sentence of scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the deade Bristow saith I confessed that I haue hearde of him diuerse sentences in the third chapter of his reply pag. 19. but reade that page who will and thèy shall finde neuer a worde of such confession The scripture it self that I except against by calling for Canonicall scripture is the booke of Machabees which he promiseth to proue to be canonicall in the 11. Chapter where his arguments shall receiue aunsweres The 4. part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident scriptures against vs and also by scripture to proue his sense of the scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that 〈…〉 dare not be tried by scripture but reiect the Scriptures where 〈…〉 n a fourefold offer is made vnto him Before he rehearse my words of promise he repeteth 〈…〉 w precise he hath shewed me first to admitte no eui 〈…〉 nce that they alledge but scripture onely both in all 〈…〉 ntrouersies and also in the exposition of scripture 〈…〉 at euidence I admit and howe farre hath beene shew 〈…〉 before more at large in my answere to his motiues 〈…〉 d demaunds Secondly he saith I admitte no scripture 〈…〉 ich maketh so plainly with them that I cannot auoid but by denying it to be canonicall though I graunt 〈…〉 o haue the confirmation of the same true Church which 〈…〉 oueth me as the holy ghost to receiue the other scrip 〈…〉 res for canonical This he speaketh for the Machabees 〈…〉 oke which although I denie to bee canonicall yet I 〈…〉 uer graunted to haue the confirmation of the true 〈…〉 urch neither yet euer had it againe where he saith 〈…〉 e true Church moueth me as the holy ghost to re 〈…〉 ue the other scriptures for canonicall hee doth mee 〈…〉 onge for the Church moueth not me as the holy ghost 〈…〉 t in a much inferior degree of mouing the holye Ghost 〈◊〉 the author moueth mee the true Church as a wit 〈…〉 sse Thirdly hee saith I admit no scripture which I con 〈…〉 sse to be canonicall vnlesse it make so expressely so plainely so manifestly so necessarily with them that it cannot by any subtiltie be auoyded This proposition being in the copulatiue is false for I admit arguments taken either out of the expresse and plaine words of scripture or of collection necessarily concluding Let him make a newe logike if hee will haue me admitte argumentes that doe not conclude necessarily Howe I obserue that law that I so rigorously exact 〈…〉 e will examine in the next Chapter Then folâ—oweth a large rehersall of sentences wherein I affirme â—hat by the grace of God I am able to proue euery arti 〈…〉 e of faith that wee holde against the papistes by ne 〈…〉 essarie argu 〈…〉 ents out of the scriptures Bristowe saith in the next chapter I shall haue ynowe yet if 〈◊〉 will one article shall be this That Antichrist is not one certaine person That I shall easily proue thus One certaine person is not many Antichrists there haâ—â— beene manie therefore Antichriste is not one certaine person The minor is saint Iohn Epist. 1. Cap. 2. vers 18. Againe Antichrist is hee whosoeuer denyeth that Iesus is Christ One certaine person onely denyeth not that Iesus is Christ Therefore Antich rist is not one certaine person onely 1. Iohan. 2. vers 22. Againe Euery spirite that confesseth not Iesus Christ to bee come in the fleshe is the spirite of Antichrist but this is not the spirite of one certaine person ergo Antichrist is not one certaine person The beast described Apocalips 13. and expounded Apocalips 17. is Antichrist but manie kinges are the partes of that beaste therefore Antichrist is no one certaine person The whoore of Babylon whiche is expounded Apoc. 17. to be the citie of Rome is borne by the beast beforesaide which is Antichrist but the citie of Rome is not borne by one certayne person therefore Antichrist is no one certaine person An other article that hee requireth me to proue is That the Churches flying
into the wildernesse at the comming of Antichrist is to become inuisible to the worlde Although this article bee not a matter of faith in controuersie betweene vs neither yet so affirmed of mee as though to bee in the wildernesse were nothing else but to bee inuisible to the worlde yet I will proue so much as I affirmed that the Church being in the wildernesse is inuisible to the worlde The Church being where the multitude of wicked men are not is to them inuisible But the multitude of wicked men are not in the wildernesse Therefore the Church being in the wildernesse is to the multitude of wicked men which is the world inuisible Thirdly hee requireth mee to proue that the beginning of that comming and flying shoulde bee so soone after Christes passion Before I proue this it were reason you should tell how sone you meane or I said such 〈…〉 mming and fleeing shoulde bee And the like I say 〈…〉 the continuance of so many ages and the ende so 〈…〉 g before Christes seconde comming The holy 〈…〉 ost declareth Apoc. 12. ver 5. that immediately after 〈…〉 rist was taken vp to God and his throne the woman 〈…〉 hich is the Church being persecuted by the dragon 〈…〉 d into the wildernesse The time of continuance is 〈…〉 uratiuely obscurely described by dayes monethes 〈…〉 d yeares and generally by a time times and halfe a 〈…〉 e which I neuer tooke vppon me to define howe 〈…〉 ng they should be in account of our yeres nor when 〈…〉 comming of Christ should be After this hee saith I triumph in lying when I af 〈…〉 me the Papistes dare not abyde the tryall of onely 〈…〉 ipture whereas he laboreth nothing so much in all 〈…〉 is Chapter as to prooue that the tryall of true do 〈…〉 ine ought not to bee onely by scripture And 〈…〉 terwarde hee sayth playnely they refuse the tryall 〈…〉 onely scriptures but not by scriptures no more 〈…〉 eu they refuse faith because they refuse onely faith 〈…〉 here hee noteth mee for foysting in the worde one 〈…〉 in the minor of this argument The spouse of 〈…〉 hrist heareth the voyce of Christ and is ruled there 〈…〉 y But the Romishe Church will in no wise bee 〈…〉 led onely by the voyce of Christ therefore shee is 〈…〉 ot of the spouse of Christ. I thought euerie reasona 〈…〉 le man woulde haue vnderstoode onely in the maior 〈…〉 so seeing she is no honest spouse that will bee ruled 〈…〉 y the voyce of an other man then her husbande or 〈…〉 hat will bee ruled by her selfe or take vppon 〈…〉 er to ouerrule her husbande I added also in the 〈…〉 inor which Bristow omitteth that the Romish church 〈…〉 goeth a whoring after her owne inuentions and com 〈…〉 mitteth grosse idolatrie Ar. 99. Where I charge the Popishe Church with blas 〈…〉 mie for submitting Gods word to her owne iudgemeÌ„t 〈…〉 he answereth it is al one as if I shold say the Apostles did blasphemously submit the scripture to the own will bâ— cause they tooke vppon them to iudge of the true s 〈…〉 and because S. Peter sayde the vnlearned being hiâ— selfe a fisherman and vnstable did misconster S. Pauâ— epistles c. to their owne damnation which is all 〈◊〉 as if Bristowe coulde make vs beleeue that the Apâ— stles tooke vppon them without the spirit of God 〈◊〉 contrarie to the scriptures in other places to iudge 〈◊〉 sense of any scripture as the Popish Church doeth 〈◊〉 that Saint Peter being an Apostle indued with so mâ— ny graces was vnlearned because hee had beene a 〈◊〉 sherman Agayne where I sayde the Popishe Church ma 〈…〉 festly reiecteth the whole autoritie of all the Cano 〈…〉 call scriptures when shee affirmeth that no booke 〈◊〉 holy scripture is Canonicall but so far foorth as sh 〈…〉 will allowe it This sayth Bristowe is as though 〈◊〉 Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiâ—cted the whole c because they made a Canon or Câ—nons whereof the sayde scriptures were and are call 〈…〉 Canonicall wherevppon him selfe also counteth th 〈…〉 as confirmed by the holy Ghost That the scriptu 〈…〉 are called Canonicall of such a Canon it is not yet proued for they may bee called the Canon and Canonicall because they are the certayne rule to directe 〈◊〉 matters of religion But admitte the Apostles or 〈◊〉 Church immediately after them in hauing the spir 〈…〉 of discretion made such a Canon to discerne true aâ—d diuine bookes from false and conterfeite books or writen by the spirite of man what is this like to that bl 〈…〉 phemous authoritie which the Popishe Church chalengeth that shee gaue authoritie to the scriptures and might as well haue receiued the Gospell of Bartholomewe as of Mathew of Thomas as of Iohn c whereby it followeth that by the like power shee may now reiect the Gospells of Mathewe and Iohn and receiue the Gospels of Bartholomew and Thomas Where I sayde the popish Bishoppes durst not abyde the conference at Westminster first he quarelleth 〈…〉 my phrase because I saide it was before the whole 〈…〉 rlde as one that care not what I say In deede I 〈…〉 de accompt of the iudgement of reasonable rea 〈…〉 s which woulde not take my wordes as though I 〈…〉 nt that all the whole worlde was gathered into 〈…〉 estminster Church but that the conference and dis 〈…〉 tation was so open and so notorious that all the world 〈…〉 ght haue knowledge of it Secondly hee calleth it a mocke conference in com 〈…〉 rison of the councell of Trent yet was there no or 〈…〉 r taken but such as was well liked of by the Papistes 〈…〉 m selues vntill they sawe their cause coulde carie no 〈…〉 dite Hee chargeth vs for refusing to come to the councell 〈◊〉 Trent being so solemnly honorably inuited with 〈…〉 h safeconductes c. To your safeconductes I aun 〈…〉 ere briefly the councel of Constance hath discredited 〈…〉 m for euer on your behalfes And to your disputati 〈…〉 there offered I say it was to no purpose in such a 〈…〉 cke councell where the Pope which is the princi 〈…〉 ll partie that is accused of heresie shall be the onely 〈…〉 dge and disposer of all thinges passed therein against 〈◊〉 good examples lawes equitie and reason Where you make Allen such a great exhibitioner 〈◊〉 our whole countrie I will not quarell at your phrase 〈…〉 t I maruell what great reuenewes hee hath in Flaun 〈…〉 rs that hee receyueth no exhibition as you say from any bodie But nowe to the fourefolde offer wherein first you say that the councell of Trent compted vs subiectes 〈◊〉 much as we compte you the subiectes of Englande â—e compt you as you shew your selues to bee errant â—aytors to Englande and the most godly prince of the 〈…〉 me our soueraigne Lady Queene Elizabeth as for 〈…〉 e conuenticle of Trent we owe no more subiection 〈…〉
scripture 〈…〉 ust be brought and heard which I neuer affirmed but 〈…〉 at onely scripture is sufficient and of soueraigne au 〈…〉 oritie to teach vs all doctrine perteyning to religion 〈…〉 d manners to faith and good workes Whatsoeuer 〈…〉 erefore is brought and heard must bee examined by 〈…〉 at touchstone if it be receiued of Christians Secondly 〈…〉 e slaundereth me to confesse that all other euidences 〈…〉 e euident for them which is an impudent lie for I ne 〈…〉 r made any such confession Thus hauing altered the 〈…〉 ate of the controuersie from that I affirme to that which 〈◊〉 falsely saith meÌ„ to affirme he taketh vpon him to an 〈…〉 ere all such scriptures as I haue alledged to prooue that 〈◊〉 al matters only scripture must be brought heard 〈…〉 nd first he quarelleth that in all mine answere to the arti 〈…〉 es I haue cited but one text of scripture for that pur 〈…〉 se. Where he might more truly say I had cited none 〈…〉 r this question of only scriptures authoritie sufficiencie was none of the demaunds wherevnto I made answere Only in the 4. article 1. demand which demaÌ„deth what church hath vanquished all heresies in times past c. I answere the true catholike Church hath alwayes resisted al 〈…〉 lse opinioÌ„s contrary to the word of god fought against theÌ„ with 〈…〉 e sword of the spirit which is the word of God and by the aide 〈◊〉 God obteined the victory and triumphed euer theÌ„ So did Paul 〈…〉 ercome the Iewes Act. 18. So did the fathers of the primitiue 〈…〉 urch froÌ„ time to time confute heresies by the scriptures and in 〈…〉 eir writing declare that by theÌ„ they are to be confuted c. To 〈…〉 is Bristow answereth that he findeth not that his argumeÌ„ts 〈…〉 gainst the Iewes were none but scriptures wherein he is 〈◊〉 be patdoned because the quotation is a misse and hath Act. 18. for 28. in which chapter 23. ver S. Luke declareth how he proued the whole doctrin of the gospel out of the law of Moses the Prophets Wherefore if Bristow had remeÌ„bred this he might haue found that S. Pauls arguments were the same against the Iewes of Corinth which he vsed against the Iewes of Rome For what other authority shold be vsed against theÌ„ that denied Christ beleue not his Epistles but the authoritie of the scripturâ— which they receiued Wherfore he vsed none other arguments but taken froÌ„ the authoritie of the scriptures Also he might find in the same chapter last verse that Apolloâ— who vsed the same arguments that S. Paul did proued by the scripturs that Iesus was Christ. If he will cauill that it is not said onely by scriptures let him accuse S. Luke which hath omitted other argumeÌ„ts necessarie to proue Iesus to be Christ. But read you Act. 13. saith Brist and you shal find that he vsed against the Iewes the testimonie of certaine men namely of Iohn the Baptist of his owne disciples This is as good an argument to proue that he confuted them not by the onely authority of Gods word conteined in the scriptures as if a man wold deny that a traytor was apprehended by the onely authoritie of the Prince because the constable arested him the Iustice made his warraÌ„t to the Iayler to receiue him Iohn the Baptist testified nothing of Christ but that which was written of him before in the scripture no more did the disciples or Apostles of Christ. Besid that the testimony of the Apostles is not alledged for proofe of any doctrine concerning Christ but only for witnes of a fact namely that Iesus was risen again froÌ„ the dead according to the scriptures Furthermore Bristow willeth â—e to read Act. 4. for the argument of miracles where it is said seing the man also stand with Peter Iohn which was healed The gouernours had nothing to gainsay A man hauing such daily exercise of conferring of scripture as Bristow boasteth himself to haue might haue alledged tweÌ„tie places more proper for the argumeÌ„t of miracles But euen in the same place by him cited the argument of miracles serueth not to prooue any article of doctrine not conteined in the scriptures but to 〈…〉 onfirme the doctrin of the scriptures which was alledged by the Apostles to prooue Iesus to be Christ. The second text of scripture is in the boke of Pur. 6. where I say that other persuasion then such as is grouÌ„ded vpon hearing of Gods word will neuer of Christians be counted for true beleefe so long as the 10. cap. to the Râ—m remaineth in the Canon of the Bible To this Bristow answereth that the word of God is not only in writing but in preaching of such as be sent And therefore wee account it the word of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her couÌ„cels or in her doctors or any other For so said God to thé he that heareth you heareth me I answere that I spake not of the word of God only in writing but in preaching in councels or doctors or howsocuer it be the word of God but I say the only scriptures are a sufficient warant for me euery Christian to try what is the word of God what is the word of man For he that coÌ„manded vs to heare the Apostles ministers willeth vs not to beleue any doctrin which they teach if they haue not the warrant of holy scripture to proue vnto vs that it is the doctrin of God For since god gaue his word in writing al spirits prophets signes miracles were to be tryed thereby Deut. 13. The third text Gal. 1. which S. Paul spéaketh of preaching Bristow saith I alledge it of writing of onely writing In these words Pur. 449. It vexeth you at the verie hart that we require the authoritie of holy scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„mandement out of the word of God that if any man teach otherwise theÌ„ the word of God alloweth he is accursed First he chargeth me with falsification by changing But what change I haue made let the Lorde God iudge Indeed I haue drawne mine argument from the worde of God to the holy scriptures because they are the only certeine assurance of the word of God For how can I knowe certainely what S. Paul preached to the Romaines and other Churches but by the scriptures both of the old testament and the new which he affirmeth to be able to make a man wise vnto saluation 2. Tim. 3 yea wherefore was the newe Testament written but to assure vs what is the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles Therefore accursed be he that saith the newe Testiment is vnperfect and doeth not contayne in writing al pointes of the Gospell that Christians are bound to beleeue to their saluation But the scripture saith not that the Apostles did write al that they taught saith Bristow yes verily and that I prooue
by this argument The scripture testifieth that all which the Apostles taught was first taught of Christ himself before theÌ„ Heb. 2. but whatsoeuer Christ taught is written in the Gospel Luk. 1. Act. 5. Iohn 20. c. therefore whatsoeuer the Apâ—stles taught is written And therfore the Church pretending the Apostles tradition receiued by preaching iâ— bound to bring forth the Apostles writing or other holy scriptures giuen by the same spirit The fourth text iâ— 2. Tim. 3. which I alledge in these words saith Bristow Purg. 410. All goodworkes are taught by the scriptures which are able to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes First he taketh exception that these are not the wordes of S. Paul Indeede my wordes are an argument against prayers for the dead grounded vpon the scripture which Bristowe suppresseth But supposing that Saint Paul had saide so what a fonde reasoning is this saith Bristoâ— because one euidence proueth all therefore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely Sir if one euidence prooue all that which is not prooued by that euidence is not prooued at all But if to prooue that which is prooued alreadie by that one euidence you haue other good euidence no man letteth you to vse them Wherefore this is no fond kinde of resoning Maister Brâ—stow but such as the best Logicians do teach All good workes are taught by the scriptures therefore that which is not taught by the scriptures is no good worke But nowe S. Paul saith not that all good workes are taught by the scripture saith Bristowe Hee saith the scriptures are profitable he saith not are able or sufficient to teach all good works Againe he speaketh only of the worke of an Euangelist and not of all good workes To this I aunswere that immediately before Paul saide The scriptures are able to make Timothie wise vnto saluation through faith in Christ Iesu but no man can bee wise vnto saluation but he that knoweth all good workes meete for a Christian man to doe therefore all good workes meete for a Christian man to do may be learned by the scripture And euen in this very text where he saith Al the scripture inspired of God is profitable to teaching of trueth to disprouing of falshoode to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfect furnished to euerie good worke although you restraine euerie worke to the only worke of an Euangelist yet that I saide is necessarily concluded thereof For it is some part of an Euangelists worke to giue example in all good workes that are meet to be done by other men but by the scripture he may be perfectly furnished c. therefore all good workes are taught by the scripture Againe when all the office of an Euangelist which consisteth in teaching disputing correcting instructing in righteousnes may be perfectly furnisht at the scriptures what can be more playne to prooue that nothing ought to bee taught for truth disprooued for error corrected for vice instructed for righteousnesse but that which is taught disproued corrected instructed out of the holy scriptures Seeing therfore that prayers and oblations are to be made for the dead is not taught by the scripture it is no trueth To deny prayer to be profitable for the deade is not disproued by the scripture therefore it is no error To omit prayer for the dead is not corrected in the scripture therfore it is no vice MeÌ„ are not instructed in the scripture to pray for the dead therefore it is no worke of righteousnes The 5. 6. texts I alledge together Pur. 434. Search the Scriptures and trie the spirites to proue that the certeintie of trueth in vnderstanding the Scriptures is not to be had but by the spirite and the spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures Against this conference Bristow saieth Who euer alledged Scripture more blindly And why so I pray you because Christ saieth in the same place that Iohn did beare witnesse to the truth My workes doe beare witnesse of me Also My father who hath sent mee hee hath giuen witnesse of mee In dèed 〈◊〉 Bristowe could proue that Iohn Baptist Christes miracles or God his father did testifie any thing of him which was not before contained in the Scriptures neither had Christ giuen a perfect rule to find him in the scriptures neither is that sentence able to proue that Christ may be sufficiently learned out of the holy Scripture But if the testimonie of Iohn of the workes of God the father do all confirme the Scriptures who euer alledged scripture more blindly then Bristow to proue that Christ may not be learned sufficiently out of the newe Testament the old when Christ sendeth the Iewes to the old Testament as a sufficient witnesse of him Concerning the triall of spirits Bristow biddeth me looke in the text by this we knowe a spirit of trueth a spirite of error namely by hearing or not hearing of the Apostles I like it very well For where shall wee heare the Apostles speaking but in their writings in the other holy writings according to which they spake all that they taught Wherfore here is no tryall of the spirites but by the scriptures And where he sayeth the Romanes doe moste manifestly continue in that they heard of the Apostles because no man can name that time the noueltie the seducer that they went after although it were true that no man could in any point shew as he sayeth yet the argument is naught seeing it is proued by the Apostles writings that they holde many things not onely beside but also contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles The 7. text iâ— Pur. 285. The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our feere therefore wee will not walke in the darknesse of manâ— traditions The faithfull testimonie of Gods word only giueth true light vnto the eyes But the Prophet sayeth Bristow neither hath the worde only nor saith that Gods word is not but in writing for S. Paul referreth that text to the preaching of the Apostles To the fiâ—st quarrell I aunswere that I alledge not the wordes of the Prophet but his meaning which Bristowe cannot denye to be the onely worde of God that giueth 〈…〉 ue light to the eyes That Gods worde is not but in 〈…〉 riting I neuer sayde or thought but that there is no 〈…〉 erteintie of Gods worde but in the Scripture I affirme 〈…〉 nd that the Apostles preached nothing but that which 〈…〉 as before conteined though not so clearely in the lawe 〈…〉 nd the Prophets Last of all you alledge and saye against Iudas Ma 〈…〉 abaeus saith Bristowe Pur. 210. In the law not so much â—s one pinne of the tabernacle was omitted lest any â—hing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God You shall not doe sayth the Lorde what seemeth good in your
owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that onely shall you do without adding any thing to it or taking any thing away from it After a fonde quarrell of the quotation omitted by the printer and his coniecture thereupon Moses sayeth not saith Bristowe That onely which I doe write but that onely which I commaund And so our sauiour Christe commaundeth the Iewes accordingly The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it I aske no better wee must obserue that only which God coÌ„mandeth whether Moses or any other of the Prophets apostles or Euangelists haue written it whether the Scribes or Pharisees pastors or teachers do preach it But where shal we finde that which God hath coÌ„maunded but in the law the prophets in the writings of the apostles euangelists which are able to make vs wise to saluation which are profitable to make that man of god perfect prepared to al good works As for the pinnes saith Bristow you may see in the doctors they were not for that cause you imagine of leauing nothing to mans deuise in that worship of God For how say you then by Dauid Salomon who changed not only a pinne but all the pinnes the whole tabernacle into the temple ordeined musicall instruments and manye other thinges for the worship of God that the lawe did not mention I aunswere whatsoeuer Dauid and Salomon chaunged and ordeyned they did not by the deuise of man but by reuelation from God who had ordeined them to doe it But mine error is sayeth Bristow because I do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humaine spirites and men that haue the spirite of God as Moses the Propheâ—â— and Apostles and the catholike Church I were in deedâ— in a grosse errour if I could not distinguish the spirite of God from the spirite of man But Bristowe erreth because he confoundeth men that were specially chosen to receiue the worde of God by reuelation and the same to preach and write as the Prophets and Apostles with the Church which consisteth of men hauing the spirite of adoption but for the certeintie of trueth buylded vpon the foundation of the Prophets Apostles or else erring if they depart from that foundation The digression he maketh to the vnlearned brother because I knowe not the treatise against which he writeth I omitt But where he returneth to admonish mee his fellowe Fulke as he calleth mee to looke better to my Logike concerning mine argument ab authoritate nâ—gaâ—iuâ— I do him to witt that God I thanke I am not to learne Logike nor the force of an argument of authoritie negatiuely of him The argument that angreth him is this All true doctrine is taught in the Scriptures Purgatorie is not taught in the scriptures therefore Purgatorie is no true doctrine Here are two faultes sayeth Bristowe one because the maior is false the other supposing the maior were true yet cannot the argument be opposed to our arguments of traditions councels fathers I will first proue the maior That whereby the man of God may be made perfect furnished to all good workes is taught in the Scriptures 2. Tim. 3. All true doctrine is that whereby the man of God may be made perfect prepared to all good workes Therefore all true doctrineâ—s taught by the scriptures Againe That which is able to make a man wise to saluation teacheth all true doctrine needefull to saluation for of other truethes we speake not but the scriptures are able to make a man wise vnto saluation ergo 〈◊〉 Scripture teacheth all true doctrine And concer 〈…〉 g the seconde fault which supposeth the maior mi 〈…〉 were true yet denyeth the argument I woulde 〈…〉 sh you fellowe Bristowe to looke better to your 〈…〉 gike howe an argument that is true in matter and 〈…〉 rme may not be opposed against you But you 〈…〉 ing a wittie example if you prooue a doctrine vnto 〈…〉 câ— out of the olde testament and I oppose therunto 〈…〉 y negatiue argument and saye All true doctrine 〈…〉 aught in the newe Testament that doctrine is not 〈…〉 ght in the newe testament therefore that doctrine 〈…〉 o true doctrine You aske mee whether this be well 〈…〉 posed of mee I aunswere no neither woulde I euer 〈…〉 pose such an argument against you which though it 〈◊〉 true in forme yet it is manifestly false in matter 〈…〉 r if you suppose the maior to be true as you say that 〈…〉 olde it and must holde it especially if you say so then 〈…〉 he minor vtterly false for then no doctrine is taught 〈◊〉 the olde testament but the same is taught also in 〈◊〉 newe Testament Wherefore this example prooueth 〈…〉 t but that mine argument ab authoritate negatiuè is 〈…〉 ghtly opposed against traditions councels fathers 〈…〉 ch like as auouch any doctrine for true which is not 〈…〉 ght in the Scriptures in which all trueth is taught The second part Of Scriptures alledged concerning the question of the Church â—â—d first what he alledgeth indefinitely that the Church may 〈…〉 re The firste text cited Ar. 86. Euery man is a lyar â—herfore the whole Chuch militant consisting of men â—hich are al lyars may erre alltogether Against this Bristowe asketh Why I doe not saye 〈…〉 e Church triumphant And demaundeth whether 〈…〉 at also doe not consist of men I aunswere the scrip 〈…〉 re Psalm 116. speaketh of men liuing in this worlde 〈…〉 d such as are meere men lest he should cauill at our 〈…〉 uiour Christ which is a man and yet not contained in this generall rule As for the members of the triumphant Church whether they may properly be câ—lled men I will not dispute but wee speake as the scripture speaketh of men on earth and the Church o 〈…〉 â—arth And therefore although it be true that somâ— men by the gifte of God are veraces true yet nere which may not erre And therefore the absurdi 〈…〉 which I gather Purg. 451. God onely is not true if 〈◊〉 Pope cannot erre is not auoided by saying the Apostles cannot erre For vndoubtedly the Apostles did erre That their preachings and writings were not erronious it was because they were not theirs but the enditing of the holy ghoste by them But that the holy ghost speaketh not so by the Pope it is manifest by this that he hath spoken contrary to the spirite of God in the Scriptures not onely in matters of controuersie betweene him and vs but also in heresies condemned by both partes The 2. text is Ar. 88. where I saye The true onely Church of God hath no such priuilege graunted but that she may be deceiued in some things for her knowledge is vnperfect her prophecying is vnperfect Bristowe replyeth that S. Paul in that speach includeth him selfe Our knowledge our prophecying c. is vnperfect whether we speake or write And sayth that he troweth I will
ohn 14. ver 16. of the comforter euen the spirit of truth to remaine with vs for euer and to leade vs into al truth If the later bee not restored to the Apostles howe can Bristowe proue that it must needes bee vnderstoode of 〈…〉 e whole Church onely and not of euery member s 〈…〉 g our sauiour Christ Iohn 17. prayeth not onely for 〈…〉 is Apostles but for all and euery one that should be 〈…〉 eeue in him through their preaching that they might 〈…〉 e sanctified in the trueth which is the worde of God â—nd eueÌ„ in the verie place cited Iohn 14. ver 15. promiseth 〈…〉 he comforter the spirite of trueth to euerye one 〈…〉 hat beleeueth in him And as he sent his spirite to leade 〈…〉 he Apostles into all trueth so his Apostles fayled not to deliuer that trueth as well in writing as in preaching considering that the one is more subiect to forgetful 〈…〉 and corruption then the other Wherefore the Church 〈◊〉 called the piller of trueth 1. Tim. 3. because it is buil 〈…〉 vpon the foundation of the prophets and Apostles Ep 〈…〉 2. which had the whole trueth of the gospel reuealed 〈◊〉 to them not because the Church shoulde haue the spirite of trueth to reueale any trueth vnto her which w 〈…〉 not reuealed to the Apostles and by them as well iâ— their writings as in their preachings So that the sa 〈…〉 gift of the spirite being in the whole Church that is iâ— euerie member and distinct from the gift of the spirite in such measure as the Apostles had it in their preaching and writing the argument by me set downe is sound no sophisme at all 2 That the Church may be diuorced I neuer saide that the true Catholike church of Christ may be diuorced from him but the visible particular Church of some place time as the prophet Esay complaineth that the church of Ierusalem by idolatrie superstition had separated her selfe from Christ was refused of him Esa. 1. How is the faithfull citie become an haâ—lot c. And so may the prophet say to the church of Rome Brist asketh whether the prophet do say so to Rome yea â—erely For the idolatrie of Rome is nothing lesse in this time then it was in his time of IerusaleÌ„ But I am too too ignorant Bristow saith in the scriptures if I know not herein the difference betweene the synagogue of the Iewes and the Church of Christ to wit that the synagogue with her IerusaleÌ„ might shuld be diuorced but the Church of Christ with her Ierusalem which is Rome saith Bristow if you haue any sight in the Actes of the Apostles should neuer nor neuer might be diuorced c. If mine ignorance be so great why do you not with one text at the least help to teach me that the visible Church of Christ since his incarnation consisting of the Gentiles may not as wel be separated from him as the Church of Christ before his incarnation consisting of the Iewes As for 〈◊〉 diuorcement you imagine of all the whole on the 〈…〉 th it neuer was ne shal be Againe that Rome is the 〈…〉 usalem of the Church of Christ where finde you in 〈…〉 c Acts of the Apostles which haue so good sight in 〈…〉 em I gesse this is your argument S. Luke beginneth 〈…〉 s storâ—e at Ierusalem and endeth at Rome ergo Rome the Ierusalem of the Church of Christ. But when you 〈…〉 n proue the consequens of this argument I wil say as 〈…〉 ou say In the meane time I say there is small likely 〈…〉 od that Rome should be the Ierusalem of the Church 〈…〉 f Christ seeing Peter being at Rome is not once meÌ„ti 〈…〉 ed in all the Actes of the Apostles nor in any other 〈…〉 ooke of holy scripture But if you had as great sight 〈◊〉 the Epistle to the Galathians as you imagine your 〈…〉 lfe to haue in the Actes of the Apostles there might 〈…〉 ou learne Cap. 4. that the Ierusalem of the Church of â—hrist is not Rome on earth but Ierusalem which is a 〈…〉 oâ—e which is the mother of vs all As for the reiecting 〈…〉 f the Iewes and calling of the Gentiles euen vntill the 〈…〉 lnesse and the restoring of the Iewes of which you pro 〈…〉 hecy without the booke that they shal be al Christened in 〈…〉 e end of the world are matters impertineÌ„t to this que 〈…〉 tion of the visible Churches diuorcement 3 That euen the Church of Christ shoulde prepare the way 〈…〉 o Antichrist This saith Bristow is a straunge imagination of him and his fellowes It is the totall summe of all their new diuinitie yet no warrant at all they haue for it out of the scripture But I pray you Bristowe who euer saide that the Church of Christe prepared the way to Antichrist I said Ar. 35. Manie abuses entred into the Church of Christ immediately after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for antichrist Do I not here plainely say the diuell planted them as a preparatiue Againe Ar. 38. I saide The scripture telleth vs that the mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the generall defection and reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules tim 〈…〉 2. Thessa. 2. First he quarreleth that general is my worâ— and not saint Paules I confesse but it is S. Paules m 〈…〉 ning which speaketh not of a small or particular but 〈◊〉 that great and generall defection which in other pa 〈…〉 of scripture is foreshewed to bee from Christ vnto Antichrist Apoc. 13. 17. and yet not so generall but th 〈…〉 Christ shall haue his Church still vpon earth Secondlâ— he demaundeth whether the scripture tell me that it wrâ—ugâ— in the Church of Christ and aunswereth himselfe no wordâ— so 〈◊〉 wrought in the persecuters c. of the Church of Christ. And what scripture telleth you so Is open persecution a mysteâ—iâ— of iniquitie You say better in the seducers and where began the seducers but in the visible Church although they be no members of the true and Catholike Churchâ— That our heresie is the last or next the last before the reuelation before you goe about to shewe as you promise you must proue it to bee an heresie otherwise then the religion of Christ was or the Infidels Iewes Gentileâ— called an heresie That the Church of Christ is alwayes a conâ—empâ—ible companie I neuer saide so but after diuerse authorities and reâ—sons brought to shewe howe the worlde accounteth of the Church I conclude Ar. 81. That as the Church in thâ— sight of God and his sancts is most glorious and honorable so in the sight of the worlde it hath alwayes beene most base and contemptible To the scriptures I alledge 1. Cor. 〈◊〉 Gal. 6. Ro. 1. that the crosse and Christ crucified thereon which are all the glorie of the Church are condemned of the worlde
Bristowe saith that may be and yet the Church not be in their sight a contemptible companie no more then the olde Romanes and Turkes are to vs though we contemne their religion I aunswere I speake of the contempt of the Church not of the persons of men which often times are great Emperors and princes of the world To the place Matth. 10. You shal be hated of all men 〈…〉 r my names sake Bristowe inferreth the company that 〈◊〉 hated is not alwayes contemptible I confesse neither â—id I bring that texte but to shewe the perpetuall hatred â—f the world against the Church But Cyprian writeth â—hat Decius was more patient to heare that an Emperor 〈…〉 as set vp against him then that an other priest should â—e ordeined at Rome in the place of Fabianus This saith â—ristowe was not contempt but of feare Although I â—eny not but tyrants feare the church of God more then â—hey haue cause in respect of their earthly kingdome 〈…〉 t it followeth not but they do also contemne it and 〈…〉 inke their power greater and their glorie superior vntâ— it And in the example of Decius his indignation was â—he greater because the base and contemptible compaâ—y of the Church as he esteemed them durst choose an â—ther Bishop after he had slaine Fabianus purposing to â—estroy the Church vtterly That I alledge 1. Cor. 1. Not many wise men c. He â—â—yeth it was so in the beginning of the Church but not â—lwayes And so I do blindly alledge the text againste â—y selfe Because afterwarde the text saith the wise themâ—â—lues and the strong were confounded that is to saye conuerted 〈◊〉 deede if confusion and conuersion be all one it is â—â—mewhat that you saye but howe will the text beare â—â—at beside the improprietie of the speach that God hath 〈…〉 osen the foolishe things of the worlde that he might â—onuert the wisemen and the weake that he might conâ—ert the strong Last of all God hath chosen the inno 〈…〉 e and contemptible things of the worlde and those â—hings which are not that he might destroy those things â—at are As you say to confound is to conuert so you here best saye to destroy is to saue or else you cannot â—â—rooue the multitude of wise noble and honourable â—ersons that God hath chosen to be greater then those â—hat are reiected As for the textes of Esay 60. 10. â—ited by you and mee speake of the spirituall glorye of the Church not deliuering her from the contemptof the worlde where and among whome shee is a stranger That the church was and also should become inuisiblâ— Concerning the inuisiblenes of the church Bristowe sayeth I alledge so as no sober man would so that â—elike he wil driue me to purge my self of drunkennesse as the Apostles were fainâ— to doâ— Act 2. But what saye 〈◊〉 not sounding of sobrâ—â—tie One while that the vniuersall church of Christ is not seene at all of men because it is in heauen Gal. 4. And here he asketh if euery member be not in heaueÌ„ as the Apostle fayth Our conuersation is in heauen Phil. 3. and Peter the Apostle wâ—â— seene of all men I answere although men be seene iâ— earth yet their conuersation which is in heauen is not seene nor they them selues as they are in heauen with Christ which is our life Col. 3. ver 3. c. So much moâ—â— the vniuersall church being a spirituall coniunction oâ— all the members vnto Christ their head in heauen is noâ— to be seene with bodily eyes vpon earth But another while I say Ar. 80. it sufficeth that the church be knowne to Christ the head as he sayeth My sheepe heare my voice and I know them and to them yâ— be the members of the same body Here Bristowe quarelleth with me if your text import that it sufficeth to be knowne to the head why doe you iumble in the members afterward whether he be sober that vnderstandeâ—â— not a copulatiue proposition let wise men iudge And yet the text proueth as wel the sheepe to knowe one another by hearing Christes voice as Christe knowiâ—g them by his diuine election and prouidence But Bâ—â—stowe so great a craftes man of good conclusions d 〈…〉 deth this consequence Christ knoweth his sheepe 〈◊〉 the church forsooth may be inuisible and so he may for it is of his owne making and not of mine I had no more to proue but that Christ should not be head of an vnknowen body because he knoweth his owne body and the members knowe one another although neither he nor they be knowen vnto the worlde Yet another while I alledge that though not alway◠〈…〉 et at one certeine time it should become inuisible at 〈…〉 he comming of Antichrist or rather when Antichrist 〈…〉 at h preuailed I speake of the church in this world of the inuisiblenes vnto the wicked world what scripâ—ures haue you for that sayth Bristowe Ar. 27. 77. It â—as propheciâ—d that the church should flye into the Wildernesse The defection which saint Paul speaketh of concerning the churches inuisiblenesse I haue proâ—ed howe substantiall the argument is before Cap. 7. Par. 4. But nowe Bristowe opposeth scriptures to proue â—hat the church in the time of Antichrist should be both â—isible and vniuersall For there shal be preaching all the time of persecution by the true witnesses Apoc. 11. euen 1260. dayes or 42. monethes which commeth to three yeares and an halfe But after they be slaine and â—lye vnburied 3. dayes and an halfe which is also the time of Antichristes tyranny and the greatest ruffe of â—is crueltie who shall preache then openly against Antichrist for of such preaching we speake But lest you should imagine these dayes to be common dayes of 24. houres long as you seeme to doe of the 1260. dayes c. you may see that the inhabitants of the earth could not haue time to publish their death and send giftes c. in so short a season as three dayes and an halfe of naturall dayes account But you say the preaching shall be as generall as the persecution That cannot be of so smal 2 number of witnesses For that you quote Apoc. 14. pertaineth to the time of Antichristes consumption towarde the end and his final destruction for immediatly followeth the Angell shewing the fall of Babylon Last of all you obiect Apoc. 20. that the persecutors being in number as the sande of the Sea shall ouer the wide worlde compasse the campe of the faithfull the citie of God therfore the church shal be at the same time vniuersal super latitudinem terrae I doubt not but the church shal be vniuersall in her greatest straits dispersed ouer all the earth when shee is fled into the wildernes which signifieth her desolate condition not her place wout the world but neither of both is proued by the text before alledged For it followeth not although thâ— enimies with their multitude shall come
then in deede sayeth Bristowe â—he day of our Lorde is instant And howe knowe you â—hat For our Lorde Iesus Christe sayeth he will kill â—im with the breath of his mouth What immediatly Bristowe so soone as he is shewed openly will you â—llowe him no time to exercise the power of Satan in all lying signes and wonders shall he be killed before he haue practised all deceite of vnrighteousnes in them that perish to whome God shall â—ende the efficacie of errour that they may beleeue lying that all they which haue not beleeued the trueth but had pleasure in vnrighteoâ—snesse may be condemned This will aske a longer time then three yeares and an halfe of the Sunnes reuolution or 42. months of the Moones circuite It is not one mannes person or age that can suffice to deceiue all them that haue not beleeued the trueth His last conceite in distinguishing the apostasie from the reuealing of Antichrist by the token giuen of the abolishing of the Romane Empire which should come to passe before the reuealing but not before the apostasie because it is his owne drousie imagination without grounde I will not vouchsafe to confute especially seeing the Apostle ver 3. ioyneth the Apostasie and the reuelation immediately together Whether Antichrist or the Apostasie agree to the Protestantes In this title is nothing but surmises wherof he him selfe is vncerteine but for one place in the Apocalipse he would saye vnder the churches leaue that our heresie is the apostasie the place is in the first Vâ— of the Locustes and their king Abaddon Apoc. 9. where somethings agree and other things agree not c. But let him looke on the commentarie of Bullinger Alphonsus Chytraeus Iohn Bale and other and he shal finde a neerer agreement of that kingdome to the Pope and his lecherous Locusts the Monkes and Fryers then he can imagine vnto vs. I passe ouer the abomination of desolation which one while he maketh Luthers and Caluins inuentions another while the kings armes set in place of the moste sweete and glorious roode yea the image of a vile grassehopper in a church that is well knowen which is an vmbraticall desolation as the images of Iupiter and the Emperors were in the temple c. matters to be laughed at although perhaps he lye because he dare not name the church or else is afrayd it should be refourmed if any vaine painter hath set vp such images And yet what more common in Poperye then not onely to paint but also to carue the images of kings and noble mens armes euen vpon the roodeloft of the Churches where they were patrones At last hee challengeth mee to ioyne with him vppon his last demaund which is apostasie vnto which I haue aunswered long since Finally he will discharge the Pope from being antichrist by the commentarie which the scripture it selfe makes The seuen heads are seuen hilles vppon which the woman sitteth And they are seuen kings whereof fiue are falne which are the persecuâ—ing kings before the time when this was spoken What then One is presently who therefore is ment of the Romane Emperors and all other kings persecuting with them The other is not yet come and when he commeth he must remaine a short season who euidently is Antichrist in proper person This exposition hitherto may agree with the Pope Nay sayth Bristowe for he must remaine not a long season as the fiue and as the one but a short season only three yeares and an halfe But where haue you the length of his continuance compared with the fiue and one All the time of the Churches persecution is but short in comparison of the infinite comfort that she shal haue euerlastingly though it be long in the iudgement of fleshe and blood measuring the time by the breuitie of mans life and the seasons of this worlde as Bristowe doeth the three yeares and an halfe But this is worthie to be noted that he expoundeth the sixt king for the whole state of Romane Emperors and other persecuting kings as he doeth the fiue kings that were past and yet against all reason and analogie wold haue the seuenth which is antichrist to be one singular man so to auoide that the whole rabble of Popes cannot be antichrist Nowe followeth the exposition of the tenne hornes which are tenne kings which haue not yet taken kingdome but they shall take power as kinges euen in one houre with the beast that is together with Antichrist sayth he to serue him as his feede knights I maruell whether he will not expound the houre in this place for the 24. part of a naturall daye For otherwise wee see by histories that the aduauncement of the Pope was the decay of the Empire in the West and with him arose a multitude of kings in euery prouince which before were subiect to one Emperour And so you see euidently sayth Bristowe by these seuen hilles thus expounded that the woman which sitteth vpon them is not so little a one as you do make her but that shee is Mundus impiorum the whole worlde of wicked men But where do we see this euident exposition of the seuen hilles wee haue seene the exposition of the seuen heades to bee seuen kings and also seuen hills but we see no exposition of the hills who must needs be taken in their proper sense because they are the exposition of anotheâ— figuratiue speach namely seuen heades But the woman you say is no little one which sitteth on the seuen hilles but the worlde of wicked men Let the holye ghost I pray you expounde the woman as well as the heades of her beast And the woman which thou sawest is that great citie which hath the kingdome ouer the kinges of the earth This is a cleare exposition of the whore of Babylon the woman and as cleare a description of the citie of Rome which in that time had the kingdome ouer the kinges of the earth and is the citie builded vppon seuen hilles before expounded to be one of the significations of the seuen heades a persecuter of the sainctes vnder the Emperors and a poisoneâ— and persecutor of the Church vnder the Popes And therefore Mundus impiorum is a false exposition which I will prooue by this reason The whore of Babylon is a great citie hauing dominion ouer the kings of the earth but the whole worlde of wicked men is not a great citie hauing dominion ouer the kinges of the earth therfore the whore of Babylon is not the whole worlde of wicked men Againe The whore of Babylon is a citie situated vpon seuen hilles The whole worlde of wicked men is not a citie situate vppon seuen hils therefore the whore of Babylon is not the whole world of wicked men The third part Concerning the question of purgatorie and first ab authoritate scripturae negatiuè I saide Purg. 44â— It is no good logike to conclude negatiuely of any one place or booke of scripture yet
All true doctrine is taught in the scripture Purgatorie is not taught in the scripture therefore purgatorie is no true doctrine Bristowe denyeth both the maior and minor The maior I haue prooued in this chapter part 1. after the examination of the 8. text of scripture The minor hee would prooue to be false by these reasons First purgatorie is taught in the scripture in the Machabees Which he saith is in the canon of the true Church which I also confesse to be the true Church in the thirde counce 〈…〉 of Carthage and therefore it is canonicall if any other scripture be Canonicall Supposing that which is false that the Macabees were canonicall yet is not Purgatorie prooued by them prayer for the deade doeth not necessarily drawe purgatorie after it The Grecians of longe time haue vsed prayer for the deade yet they doe not receiue the doctrine of purgatorie But to prooue the Machabees to be Canonical he citeth the third councel of Carthage wherein the two bookes of Machabees are accounted amongest the rest But there are also fiue bookes of Salomon whereas wee knowe there are onely three namely the Prouerbes the Canticles and the Preacher Therefore that canon prooueth a manifest error of the councell to allowe fiue bookes of Salomon in steede of three Let Bristowe now bring out the fourth and fifth booke of Salomon and say they bee Canonicall if any other scripture bee Cano nicall The Councell of Laodicea more auncient nameth not the Machabees Hierome a Priest of Rome expressely denyeth them to bee Canonicall Praefatione â—n Prouerbia Ruffinus also in his exposition of the Creede affirmeth the Church not to receiue them as Canonicall beside so many argumentes as the bookes them selues doe minister which agree that they were writen by the spirite of man and not by the spirite of God To proceede Bristow saith that purgatory is taught so plainely 1. Iohn 5. that I could not auoyde the place but by falling into this horrible absurditie that wee may not praye for all men liuing I saide in deede we ought not to pray for them that sinne vnto death of which Iohn saith I say not that you shoulde pray for it or that any man should pray for it as your vulgar traÌ„slation hath it But howe it is prooued out of that place he saith neuer a worde Last of all purgatorie is taught saith Bristowe Specially against you sir. Iohn 11. For you say after your manner passing confidently that Martha and Marie as the scripture is manifest did not hope for any restitution of their brother Lazarus to his bodie before the generall resurrection If that bee so manifest what else was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha woulde haue Christ to pray for when shee saide thus vnto him But also nowe I knowe that what soeuer thinges thou shalte aske of God God will graunt thee To which purpose also some auncient writers expounde the place Thus farre Bristowe But I pray you sir why doe you not tell vs the names at least of those auncient writers that so expounde the place Peraduenture they were not worth the naming But are you such a cunning disputer ex concessis to wrest that I say of Martha and Marie before the comming of Christe to all times after as though I sayd that they neuer hoped for their brothers restitution because they hoped not before Christe came to Bethanie as Allen impudently coniectureth that Lazatus was restored to his bodye at their prayers made at his tombe where there is no mention of any prayers but of lamentation only I can not tel whether I shuld here require in you more wit or honestie or else lesse impudence malice But this was your purpose of cauilling and quarilling when you durst not attempt the confutation of my bookein such plaine order as I aunswered Allen but in this confuse manner to bring all my argumentes first out of ioynt and then to play with them at your pleasure 2 Ab authoritate scripturae affirmatiuè First about certaine foundations of purgatorie and prayer for the dead I saide the worde of God ouerthroweth the popish distinction of sinnes mortall Veniall shewing that all sinnes of their owne nature deserue eternall death and yet all by the mercie of God are pardonable or veniall except the sinne against the holy ghost Bristowe saith that I here graunt the doctrine and yet deny the distinction which is vtterly false for that all sinnes deserue eternall death and yet be pardonable it ouerthroweth the doctrine and distinction both For the Papistes holde that there are some sinnes so small as they deserue not in their owne nature eternal damnation as Bristow immediately hereafter confesseth where he denieth that the curse of God pronounced Deut. 27. and Gal. 3. against all them that abide not in all thinges written in the lawe extendeth not vnto eternall death saying that hanging on tree or crucifying is not eternal death and yet is accursed of God Deut. 21. Againe euery one in the saying of the Apostle is not meant of Christians but of them which trust in the lawe it selfe c. Doe you not heare playnely the olde serpentes voyce Nequaquam moriemini Tush you shall not die the curse of God doeth not bring eternall death you neede not be so greatly affraide of it c But where learned you Bristowe that the curse of God which is vppon him that hangeth on tree is not a visible token that hee deserueth eternall death Is â—ot the text plaine against you Deut. 21. When a man â—ath sinned worthy of death and is iudged to death â—anged on the tree his carcase shall not remaine vppon 〈…〉 e tree but shal be buryed the same day for he is accur 〈…〉 d of God that is hanged on the tree therefore thou 〈…〉 alt not defile the lande which the Lord thy God hath â—iuen thee to possesse He is not therefore accursed beâ—ause he is hanged on the tree if he were innocent but â—ecause he hath sinned worthie of death so is hanged 〈◊〉 which respecte our sauiour Christ being hanged on 〈…〉 e tree though most innocent in his owne person 〈…〉 et bearing the guiltinesse of all our sinnes became â—ccursed for vs not to discharge vs of such a curse 〈◊〉 did not bring eternall death but by your imagi 〈…〉 tion might fall vppon an innocent person but 〈◊〉 redeeme vs from the curse of the lawe whiche wee â—aue incurred more then tenne thousand times through 〈…〉 r manifolde sinnes and transgressions And that 〈…〉 e curse pronounced Deuteronom 27. bringeth with it 〈…〉 e payne of eternall death I wishe euerie man 〈…〉 at will not bee deceyued with the flattering voyce 〈…〉 f the Serpent to giue eare to the worde of GOD â—here hee shall see that this is a conclusion of the 〈…〉 rses solemnely to bee pronounced by the Levites 〈◊〉 which Amen was to be aunswered of all the people â—gainst idolaters cursers
argumentes with that impudent slaunder of all the church of God which he affirmeth was ignorant that any soules went to heauen before their church had defined it within these 300. yeres I passe ouer come to the matter in question I said Purg. 57. against Allen mainteining that all the iust before Christ were punished for their sinnes forgiuē ma ny hundreth yeres after their departure in hel That the fathers of the olde testament before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest arguments autorities out of holy scriptures Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednes God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs shuld not be made perfect Heb. 11. But by this text saith Brist S. Paul doth meane that their soules were not yet admitted into heauen How proueth he that forsooth the old testament did consummate nothing c. but their sinnes remaining not perfectly remitted Christ died c. A sore bolt as though any man had his sinnes forgiuen but by the new testament or could be heire of the kingdom of heauen but by the death of Christ. But the same apostle saith Heb 9. That the way of the saints was not yet opened while the first tabernacle stood Bristow addeth to the text of his own into soncta or heauen wher the apostle meaneth of the worke of Christs redemption in his death resurrection ascension the effect wherof neuertheles was extended no lesse to the fathers of that olde testament then to vs. Thirdly the apostle saith Heb. 10. that we haue confidence to enter in to the holy place by the bloud of Iesus which hath dedicated that new liuing way for vs through the vayle that is his flesh All which proueth nothing but that there is no entrance into heauen but by Christ which way is comon to all the saintes of God of all ages But Bristow biddeth me conferre the end of my text Heb. 11. with the beginning where he saith they receiued not the promise which is the expositiō of their not consummating I admit it for no Christian receiueth the promise consummate before the resurrection of their bodies The consummation of which promise perfection of the saints God reserueth vnto one time when we shal all receiue the promise consummation together that they without vs saith he shoulde not be consummate the same reason is of the apostles fathers of the primitiue church vs of the later church them that shal be to the end of the world Now to mine arguments autorities of scripture I reason that seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life entred not into condemnation but passed frō death to life Ioh. 5. To what life saith Bristow but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntil the last day all the dead are in death O prodigious heretike call you that a passage frō death to life to continue in death 5. or 6. thousād years Is God then to this new Saducee the god of the dead not of the liuing yea he saith that life after corporal deth in the new testament lightly euery where signifieth the resurrection of the bodies What is it then to take hold of eternall life in this world which shal be interrupted with so long abyding in death 1. Tim. 6. And how can it be true which our sauiour saith he that beleueth in me hath alreadie eternal life if they that are passed out of this world are all in death wherfore then is this eternall life interupted with any Purgatorie Limbus patrum or death The second argument is of that Christ is called the lamb that was slaine from the beginning of the worlde because the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike Apoc. 13. To this the beast hath nothing to answere but that it is not said that the lambe was slaine from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobates shal adore antichrist whē he cometh And because Apoc. 17. the words be whose names were not written in the booke of life frō the beginning of the world he would haue those wordes from the beginning of the world by a monstrous construction contrary to the manifest composition and pointing both in the Greeke vulgare Latine to be referred not to the lamb slaine but to the booke of life As though both those textes in their seuerall sense might not be true except such manifest violence were offered to the construction cōposition pointing in this text of the Apoc. Yet he confesseth it to be true that the lambe was slaine from the beginning of the world which is no where else written in the scripture but heere the cause of the trueth he will not haue to be my fonde sense but because his death was preordeined of God and prefigured so long before A substantiall cause by which we may say that Bristowe was dead from the beginning of the world because his death was so long before ordeined of God and prefigured in the death of Adam The third argument is that Esay speaking of that righteous that are departed out of this life sayeth that there is peace and that they shall rest in their beddes Esa. 57. like as he affirmeth that Topheth which is Gehinnon or hell is prepared of olde for the wicked To this he answereth that Esay speaketh not of his owne time but as a Prophet of the time now since the cōming of Christ who is our peace as though Christ were not their peace as well as oures And what a shamelesse answere is this to denye the doctrine of the Prophet concerning the comfort of the faithfull after death to perteine to the faithfull of his owne time to whome then it was in vaine preached and published by the Prophet After a little quarreling against my translatiō the sense wherof he cannot deny he asketh if the rest of the soules must needes be the blisse of heauen and telleth vs that their Limbus was not a place of sensible paine But sir Salom whereinto the Prophet sayeth the righteous doe goe will not onely giue them rest without sense of paine but peace with happinesse and prosperitie Finally he sayeth Topheth or Gehenna was not the onely hell because our Creede and the Scripture sayeth that Christes soule was in hell I answere that hell signifyeth either the place or state of torments for sinnes in the former Caluine whome you slaunder sayth not that Christ was in but in the later when he complained that he was forsaken of God there is not therefore proued by Christes discending into hell any other place or receptacle of soules in hell but Topheth and Gehenna the place of the damned The fourth argument against Limbus is that Lazarus was carryed by Angels not downe to hell but vp to Abrahams bosome But the riche man being in hell looked vp and seeth Abraham afarre of Bristowe asketh whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie to
meere Bristowisme For Caluin neuer helde any such matter as he imagineth He asketh whether this be to say that all men are iustified before they come to the sacrament as though Caluin said they were Whereas a great number are iustified neither before nor after the receipt of them But this is to say that as Abraham was iustified by faith without respect of the sacrament so are all they that are iustified iustified by faith without respect of the sacrament Secondly he asketh whether all sacraments be seales of such a matter Yea verely or else saint Paul proueth the iustification of the Gentiles by faith very feebly after the example of Abraham Thirdly hee asketh whether all Iewes were iustified before they came to circumcision which I neuer hearde any man to affirme but that as many Iewes as were iustified were iustified by faith as Abraham was circumcision no more regarded in their iustification then it was in the iustification of Abraham Last of all he asketh whether circumcision were to the Iewes a seale of such a matter still he calleth it such a matter because he dare not name iustification by faith O the stinge of a wicked conscience But to the question I aunswere that to the Iewes which were iustified by faith circumcision was a seale of the righteousnesse of faith which is imputed to them as it was to Abraham without merite or respect of their circumcision Other pointes of mine ignorance he saith are about the holy spirite of promise whereof Saint Paul speaketh Ephe. 1. which I say is the meane to make vs partakers of the fruites of Christes passion Item the meane to graffe vs into his bodie Item that it worketh in vs faith In the conclusion he noteth the ignorance of the Protestantes where they holde this spirite promised to be nothing else but the gifte of tongues that is to say Christs greatest gifte to be his least gifte Out vpon the shamelesse lyer which of the Protestantes canst thou name that so holdeth We all holde that the holy spirite of promise Ephes. 1. is the spirite of adoption by which we are assured of eternall life Rom. 8. And as for the spirite prophecyed by Ioel and Iohn Baptist promised by Christ to be sent after his ascension we holde not to be specially of the spirit of adoption which the Apostles al the faithfull had before Christes death and much lesse of that spirit which your Bishops giue by imposition of hands in their counterfeit confirmation which is the spirit of vanitie whose fruites appeare not in any of the receiuers But we holde that promised gifte of Gods spirit to be that wonderful reuelation of knowledge and vnderstanding vtterāce in all states degrees of true Christians generally beside a great number of particular giftes not perpetuall bestowed vpon the Church in diuerse speciall members for the certifying thereof in the first publishing of the gospel As for your conference of scriptures whereof you prate so much is a meere confusion of matters of diuerse senses According to which manner of conference not weighing the sense of euery place by the proper circumstances thereof but following onely a sounde and similitude of some wordes euerie heretike might colour his heresie were it neuer so absurde as the Valentinians of whom Irenaeus testifieth that they patched diuerse sentences together to make a shewe as though their heresie were contained in holy write which was nothing else but as if a man breaking a goodly image of a king in peeces shoulde of the peece after his owne manner ioyned together make the image of a dogge or a foxe or other foule beaste Iren. lib. 1. Chapt. 1. such is your conference of the spirite of promise wherewith the faithfull are sealed Ephes. 1. with the spirite of tongues and prophecie which came vppon the twelue on whom saint Paul layed his hands Acts 19. The last errour of faith hee chargeth mee to bee the onely meane which hee saith is no meane but a disposition hee thinketh it sufficiently discouered before wherevnto I also thinke that I haue made answere sufficiently About the sacramentes in speciall The necessitie and effecte of baptisme Concerning baptisme I say it is necessary for al christians to receiue that are not by necessity excluded from it 1. Pet. 3. Bristow saith it is necessarie for all men but when it cannot be actually had the effectuall desire of it supplyeth the want which desire infantes haue not and therfore onely the actuall hauing of baptisme doth quicken them in Christ being dead in Adam Touching the saluation of infants of the faithful dying without baptisme I said nothing but by implication that there is no such necessitie of Baptisme that the want of the outwarde sacrament shoulde condemne the seede of the faithful perteining to gods election couenant where there is no default either of contempt or neglect of it Ro. 9. Ge. 17. And seeing Bristow alloweth the effectuall desire in men of yeares to supply the want which yet the wordes of his text Iam. 3. of which he taketh colour and authoritie of his doctors that condemne all vnbaptised infants wil not beare what reason is it why he should not extende his supply vnto the effectuall desire of those infants parents and friends whose faith he acknoledgeth to supplie the want of actuall faith in the infants that are baptised Beside this hee saith that he did mark wel ynough where I said that the sacramēts giue grace according to the election of God As though all infants baptised so dying be not of Gods electe or that some be not saued although they be baptised asketh what scripture I haue for this geere But in deede he bow leth at the wrong marke for in saying that the sacramentes tooke effect according to the faith of the receiuer and according to gods election I ment that God in baptisme giueth grace to infāts which haue no actual faith of their owne according to his eternal electiō in mercy But whether al infants baptised so dying be of the nūber of gods elect as I do not know so I wil not contend But this I know that if they were not elected of God before the foundations of the world were laide the receiuing of baptisme cannot make them Gods elect Ephe. 1. Where Bristowe vrgeth the saying of saint Peter 1. Pet. 3. baptisme saueth vs now it is a weake argument to proue the baptisme of infants either to saue them all that receiue it or to condemne all that receiueth it not For explicating him selfe of what baptisme hee speaketh he addeth not the putting away of the filth of the flesh as you woulde say outwarde washing which is the externall sacrament but the interrogation of a good conscience towardes God which is the thing signified by outwarde washing and yet not founde in infantes but in them that haue knowledge among whom whosoeuer hath it not hee shall no more bee saued then any was preserued
qui matrimonis contraxerunt sperni debere dicunt They saie that Elders or Priests which haue ioyned them selues in matrimony ought to be despised Therefore these catholique Bishops thought those Priests good ones which did ioyne them selues in matrimony so they made their Canon Si quis discernit Presbyterum coniugatum c. If any man make difference of a married Priest as though by occasion of his marriage he ought not to offer and doth therfore absteine from his oblation let him be accursed Cap. 4. Of Deacons also the Ancyrane councell decreeth Cap. 10. Diaconi quicunque c. Whosoeuer be ordeyned Deacons if at the same time when they were ordeined they protested saying that they would be ioyned in marriage because they could not so continue if afterwarde they haue married wiues let them remaine in the ministerie because the Bishop hath giuen them licence But so many as haue helde their peace and taken imposition of handes professing continencie and afterwarde be ioyned in marriage ought to ceasse from the ministerie Finally the Decree of Pope Stephanus is cited Dist 31. Aliter se by Gratian and Iuo lib 4. allowing the tradition of the orientall Churches for marriage of theyr Church ministers Aliter se Orientalium c. The tradition of the Easterne Churches hath it otherwise and otherwise is the tradition of this holy Church of Rome For the Priests Deacons and Subdeacons of their Churches are coupled in marriage but none of the Priestes of this Church from the Subdeacon vnto the Bishoppe hath licence to enter into mariage It were hard if there were neuer a good one among all the Cleargie of the East Churches since the Apostles time which haue ben married and yet are To conclude I trust it is apparant to the indifferent reader that such texts of Scripture as I alledged in those two bookes which Bristow vndertaketh in this confuse manner to confute were rightly applyed and without all violence or wresting doe proue sufficiently that for which they were called to witnesse And as for the popish conference of Scriptures wherof Bristowe once againe with great lothsomnesse doeth bragge how sound it is you may perceiue by this example taste giuen by him in this Chapter Wherefore I maruell much what learned ministers of our church these were whom Bristow affirmeth being in number more then a dozen and diuerse of no vulgar wittes by their onely hearing of your conference of scriptures to haue become papists By like some vagabonde irregular and vnhonest persons being depriued of their ministerie for their vngodly behauiour haue sought fauour among them by reuolting or at least counterfaiting to be reuolted to papistrie when they be of no religion commended by Bristow for their wittes but neither for their honestie nor learning CAP. IX To defende that the doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestants in no point All the doctors sayings that he alledgeth are examined and answered The first part of his doctors generally his challenging words I confesse not the doctors to be yours in very manye points nor simply in fewe pointes nor all in any point of controuersie but graunting that for a fewe errours which you haue common with them in which you also farre exceede them as in prayers for the dead prayers to saintes some superstitious or superfluous ceremonies I affirme that in the greatest and chiefest pointes of controuersie they are either all with vs or not one against vs. 2 A generall answere to his challenge declaring that 〈◊〉 neede not to answere his doctors particularly His first reason is because I sayde wee stande for authoritie onely to the iudgement of the holy scriptures which scriptures in the chapter going before he hath satisfied But how he hath satisfied them let the indifferent readers iudge And seeing the Papistes offer to stād to their iudgement in all things and wee refuse them not as witnesses vnto the truth in most things he is not discharged in reason of answering my doctors His second reason is for that I do answere all mine own doctors for him if it be wel considered what is your consideration In that I confesse them to haue helde with you the very same points for which wee must bee condemned no remedie as differing from the doctors in the greatest pointes What are those I pray you Bristowe answereth For why doeth he saye that we are against the honor of God against the offices of Christ but because wee holde inuocation of saints and worshipping of their reliques yes sir for other more grosse idolatrie and defacing of the kingdome priesthod and propheticall office of Christe and for holding these two pointes more absurdly and grossely then any of the doctors did Againe why doth he say that we are against the authoritie of Gods worde but because we hold with traditions as the doctors did I aunswere the doctors held with no traditions that were proued to be against the written worde of God they made not the decrees of Councels and Popes of equall autoritie with the worde of God as you do But of one of the greatest pointes he repeateth my wordes in which I say expressely I confesse with M. Allen that the old writers not only knewe but also haue expressed the value of our redemption by Christ in such wordes as it is not possible that the Popish satisfaction can stande with them And yet on the other side saith Bristowe see what followeth immediatly Against the value of which redemption if they haue vttered any thing by the worde of satisfaction or any thing else we may lawfully reiect their authoritie not onely though they be doctors of the church but also if they were angels from heauen But what I pray you concludeth Bristowe of these two sayings His wordes followe immediatly So that nowe we no more neede to defende against him that wee are not contrarie to the doctors then that the doctors are not contrary to them selues As though it were impossible for men to be contrarie to themselues And yet I say no more of them then of the angels that they are contrary to the trueth in this point but that if they were wee might reiect them as lawfully as the angels if they brought another gospell Last of all he sayth Wee neede not defend that we are contrarie to our selues in the same For in what wordes the doctors speake thereof the same do wee Neither is the antecedent true nor if it were doth the argument followe For you will not saye as the olde writers doe that through the redemption of Christ a man is iustified before God by faith onely without respect of his workes or merites And where you vse the doctors wordes you either vse them in a contrary sense or else elude them with additions distinctions neither grounded on the Scriptures nor on the olde doctors but inuented out of your owne
hereticall braines After which manner it is easie to defeÌ„d that they say nothing against any heresie which they doe not condemne by name although they plainly aduouche the trueth against such errour 3 I ioygne with him neuerthelesse particularly Although they ascribe not infallibilitie to a fewe but onely to the vniforme consent of the doctours yet he is content to ioyne vppon this issue that the protestants haue not against them for any one article at all so much as any one doctour at all Howe he auoydeth mine euidence you shall see in that which followeth The second parte Of his doctors particularly First whether they expound any scripture against vs. As touching antichrist I sayd Pur. 249. The seat of antichrist was apointed to be set vp in the Latin church according to the reuelation of Saint Iohn and the exposition of Ireneus who iudged that Lateinos was that number of the beasts name spokeÌ„ of Apoc. 13. To this Bristoâ—â— answereth here are two ragged conclusioÌ„s The first antichrist was appointed to be set vp in the Latin church ergo the Pope of Rome is antichrist No sir I made no such argument but of the authoritie of Irenaeus I proued that the seat of antichrist was appointed to be set vp in the Latine church and therfore superstition was somewhat forwarder then in the Greeke church The other conclusion sayeth Bristowe is this Irenaeus iudged that Lateinos should be the name of antichrist as Iesus was and is the name of Christ ergo he iudged that antichrist was apointed to be set vp in the Latin church I answere the antecedent is yours Master Bristowe and not mine For I sayd not that Irenaeus iudged that Lateinus should be the name of antichrist as Iesus is the name of Christ as though antichrist should be a singular man For Irenaeus sayeth it in respect of his kingdome which should be in the Latine part of the world Vâ—lde verisimile est quoniam verissimum regnum hoc habâ—â— vocabulum It is verie like because the moste true kingdome hath that name which was the kingdome of the Romanes Therefore wee must seeke in the Romane kingdome for antichist in which kingdome haue reigned hitherto Emperours and Popes Emperours haue beene heathenish Christened the heathenish it could not be because antichrist must sit in the Church and they were altogether without Of the Emperours some were Catholike and some hereticall The Catholike no man will charge the hereticall Emperors were no false Prophets as antichrist must be a false teacher that with lying signes and wonders shall deceiue the world wherefore it remaineth that of all that haue hitherto reigned in the Latine Empire the Pope must bee that principall antichrist For Caluine and Luther whome Bristowe fondly nameth to be in the Latine Churche neuer bare rule in the Latine kingdome Bristowes last refuge is that Irenaeus did not so iudge Hee onely sayeth it is very like to be so I aske no more but his iudgement of the likelyhod For I knowe hee reciteth other names which haue in them the same number as Euan Teitan and in the ende will pronounce certeinly of none holding that it is better to expect the fulfilling of the Prophecy then to pronounce rashly of any But seeing antichrist is alreadie reuealed and all the prophecy of his apostasie and seduction accomplished wee doubt not to ioyne to that auncient likelyhod of Irenaeus the later likelyhodes of the same name agreeing in number with Lateinos in Greeke Romiith in Hebrewe not neglecting Ecclesia Italica The consent of all which names signifying the region the citie the kingdom beare so harde vpon the Pope the popish church of Rome that Bristowe though he laye both his shoulders to it shall neuer be able to remoue it Secondly I sayde of Hierom Pur. 373. Hee was not such a slaue to the church of Rome that whatsoeuer pleased the bishops of that see he was readie to accept For then he would not haue beene so bold to call Rome the purple whore of Babylon Praef. ad Paul in lib. Didym Bristow replyeth as though when he calleth Rome so or when Augustine calleth it the Westerne Babylon they meane the church of Rome I sayed not they meane the church of Rome as it was in their time but that antichrist shoulde sit at Rome whome the scripture sayeth must sit in the temple or Church of God 2. Thes. 2. Neither doeth Augustine meane it of the empire but of antichrist which should arise in the Romane empire Neither doeth Hierom meane of the Paganisme of Rome that remained in his time which in the place by Brist cited ad Marcell Ep. 16. he testifieth to haue ben trovnder feete but of the purple whore sitting aloft vpon the rose coulered beast of the wine of whose fornication all nations were made drunken of the blasphemie written in her forehead of the seuen hilles c. although in his tyme he confesse there was the churche of God the tryumphe of the Apostles and Martyrs c. gentilitate calcata Gentilitie being troaden vnder feete the Christian name dayly lifting it selfe aloft But that Hierom in doubtes did seeke for resolution of Damasus bishop of Rome and that all other must likewise doe Bristowe citeth his Epistle ad Damasum To 〈…〉 2. in which he consulteth with Damasus whether hee should vse the name of Hippostasis and saith further that whosoeuer gathereth not with Damasus doth scatter that is to saye whoso is not Christes is antichrists I aunswere all this was well so long as Damasus was a Catholike bishop but that Saint Hierome was not readie to accept whatsoeuer it pleased the bishop of Rome it is manifest by that he affirmeth Liberius to haue subscribed to the Arrians in Catal. script which he would neuer haue done if he had thought it impossible for the bishop of Rome to erre or necessarie for him to followe the bishop of Romes doctrine in all things The place cited ad Damasum with answere to it is in my confutation of Saunders Rocke Cap. 15. And therefore the saying of Leo Epist. 89. That Christ tooke Peter into the participation of the vndiuided vnitie proueth not that it is all one to be Peters and to be Christes when Peter erreth from Christe and much lesse that it is all one as Bristowe sayeth to be in vnitie with Peter and his successours meaning the Popes and to be in vnitie with Christ from whome not onely all Popes in matter now of controuersie doe But diuerse of the Bishops Popes of Rome haue beene deuided into horrible and confessed errours and heresies of both partes as Gentilisme Arrianisme Euâ—ichianisme Menothelitisme Sadduceisme Againe I saide Pur. 320. Which of your prelates wil follow Ambrose in his coÌ„mentarie vpoÌ„ the Apocalipse where he interpreteth the whore of Babylon to be the citie of Rome whose wordes Bristow wil recite for me This whore doth betoken in some places Rome in special
which then did persecute the church of God in some places in generall the citie of the diuel that is to saye the whole body of the reprobat Bristowe asketh if it be not a perillous point to touch the citie of Rome in saint Iohns time when it did persecute the church of Rome As though S. Iohn telleth a storie of his owne time and not a prophecy of the time to come Ambrose therfore or whosoeuer writeth that coÌ„mentarie interpreteth that prophecy Cap. 17. to be fulfilled of the citie of Rome which was not onely of persecution but of seduction But the vndoubted Ambrose if you remember sayeth Bristowe of the church of Rome sayeth In al things I couet to followe the Romane church De sac lib. 3. Cap. 1. but yet that he was not bounde to followe the church of Rome he sayeth immediately after Sed tamen nos homine sensum habemus c. But yet we being men haue vnderstanding Therefore that which is more rightly obserued elsewhere we also do rightly obserue We follow the Apostle Peter him selfe we sticke vnto his deuotion what doth the church of Rome answere to this Verily Peter him selfe which was a priest of the church of Rome is author to vs of this assertion In this Chapter he noteth an error of the church of Rome in that they vsed not to wash mens feete in baptisme Vniustly indeede he vrgeth that ceremonie as necessarie but yet he sheweth that his iudgement was that the church of Rome might receiue a custome contrarie to yâ— scripture Beside this saith Bristow he calleth Peter the first the foundation in the verie same place where say you Pur. 320 he affirmeth that Peter is not the foundation Howsoeuer I deale with my reader you deale vnfaithfully with me for my wordes are these He affirmeth the not Peter but the faith the confession of Peter is the foundation of the church and that the primacy of Peter was a primacie of faith not of honour of confession not of autoritie or higher order De incaern dom Ca. 4. 5. Ambrose his words are Cap. 4. Vos autem c. But what do you say of mee Immediatly Peter being not vnmindful of his place he exercised the primacy The primacie of confessing truely not of honor the primacie of faith not of order or degree And Cap. 5. Faith is the foundation of the church For it was not said of Peters flesh but of his faith that the gates of death shal not preuailc against it his confession ouercommeth hel The former of these places Brist corrupteth by adding this worde worldly to the words of Ambrose honor degree aâ— though Ambrose had meant that Peter excelled in eccle siasticall honor degree being equal to his fellowes in worldly honour and degree But such folly was farr froÌ„ Ambrose to say Peter was not better then the rest of the Apostles in worldly honor degree when neither Peter nor the rest had any worldly honour or degree of dignitie at all But he expresseth wherein all his primacie was when he sayeth he was first in confession first in protestation of his faith not being therefore of greater honor or higher degree then his fellowes who all helde the same faith and confession And this of Peters person neuer a worde of his successours which yet are not onely the bishops of Rome when they were at the best but all other bishops are the successors of the Apostles Hierom Euagrius which succession cannot be esteemed by places in which the Apostles sat in person but by authoritie of teaching receiued from them with soundnes of doctrine To the later place Bristow saith the diuel may preuaile against the fleshe of a Pope but his faith but his confession as well in all articles that be nowe in coÌ„trouersie as in those at that time wil stand when they shall all be sonke downe into their due place But Saint Ambrose speaketh not of euery bishop of Romes faith and confession but onely of the singular faith and confession of Peter Thou art Christe the sonne of the liuing God which is against all sectes and heresies Dies me citius c. the day should sooner faile mee then the names of heretikes and diuers sectes Yet this faith is generall against them all that Christ is the sonne of God both sempiternall of his father and also borne of the virgine Let nowe the reader iudge whether of vs hath dealt more faithfully with Saint Ambrose Fourthly he gathereth that I saye in diuerse places that Irenaeus Polycrates Dionysius Alexandrinus Cyprianus the Councell of Africa and Socrates the historiographer did preach or write against the Popes authoritie when it first began to aduance it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastasius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius Celestinus To this Bristow answereth First that all these Popes by my confession were of the true church therfore I am against my selfe in making other Popes to be antichrist for claiming such authoritie as these did Whereto I replye the former bishops did but begin a little in comparison to discouer the mysterie of iniquitie those later Popes that are antichrists did openly shewe them selues in the temple of God as God and therefore great difference Secondly Bristowe answereth that all those writers did communicate with those Popes therefore our separation cannot be excused I replye their ambitious vsurpation tended not to heresie and therfore they were content to admonish them but the latter Popes from whome we dissent are fallen into open heresie and apostasie Thirdly he saith that no one of these writers wrote against the Popes authoritie as he wil shewe of Irenaeus Polycrates Dionysius Cyprian Cap. 10. in 28. demaunde where I will shewe that they did write against such vniust authoritie as those bishops did claime Yet concerning Saint Cyprian in this place hee sayeth that hee exhorteth Cornelius to bee as stout in not loosing certeine African heretikes as their owne bishop had beene in bynding of them By which hee woulde haue men thinke that Cornelius had authoritie to vndoe that which Cyprian had done as the Pope in these dayes taketh vpon him But Cyprian yeldeth to no such authoritie but maruelleth that Cornelius was anye thing moued with the threatening of those heretiks to receiue them into his churâ—â— vnder pretence that Cyprian had not written to him immediatly of the constitution of Fortunatus a counterfeit bishop by a fewe heretikes counting it sufficient that Cornelius knewe before that they were excommunicated by the bishops of Africa saying of their gadding to Rome Cùm statutum sit c. Seing it is decreede of vs all and that it is meete also right that euery mans cause shoulde be heard there wher his crime is committed and a portion of the flock is ascribed to euery pastor which euery one should rule and gouerne as he will giue an account of his doing to the Lord verily they ouer whome we are set must not gad about nor with
And which of the olde writers except Chrysostome once goeth about to alledge Scripture for prayer for the dead Wherefore I made no vaine bragge in saying most of the olde writers that defende such prayers confessed they had them not of the Scriptures Of certaine particular textes I saide that Saint Augustine is cleare that the text 1. Cor. 3. of him that shal be saued through fire proueth not Purgatorie affirming that it is meant of the fire of tribulation in this life Bristowe cauilling that he affirmeth not but speaketh doubtfully c. saith that he onely sheweth it ought not to be expounded after the heresie of the Origenistes of hell fire But Augustines wordes are plaine Ignis enim de quolocutus est eo loco Apoâ—tolus talis debet intelligi vt ambo per eum transeant c. For the fire whereof the Apostle in that place speaketh ought to be vnderstoode such that both may passe thorough it that is both he that buildeth vpon this foundation Golde Siluer pretious stones and he also which buildeth Woode Strawe Stubble For when he had saide this he added The fire shal trie euerie mans work such as it is if any mans worke remaine that which he hath builded vpon he shall receiue rewarde But if any mans worke be burned he shall suffer losse but he himselfe shal be saued yet so as it were through fire The fire truely is the tentation of tribulation of which it is manifestly written in an other place The fornace proueth the potters vessels and tentation of tribulation iust men This fire in this present life worketh that which the Apostle saith c. By this you see that fire interpreted of tribulation in this life denied to be spoken of Purgatorie fire thorough whiche by their owne consent all men do not passe Againe he speaketh not at all against the Origenistes opinion of hell fire that it shall haue an end but against such as in his time did holde That they which forsake not the name of Christ and are baptised with his lauer in the Church and are not cut off from it by any schisme or heresie although they liue in neuer so great wickednes which they neither wash away by repenting nor redeemed with almes but continue most stubburnely in them vnto the end of this life shal be saued through fire although they be punished according to the greatenesse of their sinnes and wickednesse with long but yet not eternal fire But they which beleeue this yet are catholikes seeme to me to be deceiued by a certeine humane beneuolence For the holy scripture being consulted answereth another thing c. Enc. ad Laurentium C. 67. Thus his reasons are against a temporal purging fire through which some should passe not all therfore against the popishe purgatorie although he denye not but such a thing may be yet it cannot be proued by this place nor by any other place of scripture as hereafter we shall see more at large in the 3. diuision of this chapter where Bristowe promiseth I wot not what to shewe of Augustines iudgement for Purgatorie I answered Allen apposing vs where we had that new meaning of our sauiours wordes that he which is cast into prison for neglecting of reconciliation while he is in the way is cast into hell from whence he shal neuer come I alledged for that sense Chrysostome Augustine Hierom Chromatius This is passing childish saith Bristow For D. Allen demaundeth no such thing But this in deede is passing impudence for Allens words in the same diuision after he hath posed Caluin Flaccus Luther Iewel about their interpretation of scriptures are these But I will not make a reckoning of their vnseemely gloses I would their followers would only but aske them in all matters from whence they had such newe meanings which they falsely father on Gods word Nowe the whole discourse of that Chapter as appeareth by the title is of that place Math. 5. Pur. 132. Yet saith Bristow it is not true that all those doctors haue that sense which I affirme them to haue But he only saith it let their wordes be read Pur. 145. Where Allen alloweth all interpretations of the place 1. Cor. 3. so long as they affirme no error I sayde he may by the same reason allowe contradictories to be true As in that saying Matth. 5. of him that shall not come out vntill he haue payde the vttermost farthing some haue expounded that he shall alwayes be punished some that hee shall not be alwayes punished Howe is it possible that both these interpretations can be true Mary sayth Bristow with as fine Rhetorike as strong Logike Thus it is true those he and he are not one he but he that shal be alwayes punished is he that to the end of the way that is this life agreeth not with his aduersarie whome he hath deadly iniuryed as saying to him fatue and thereby incurring the guylt of Gehennae ignis which iâ— the prison of the damned He that shal not be alwayes punished is he whose iniury was but veniall as Racha And so both interpretations agree well not onely together but also with the text it selfe In deede this is a fine distinction of he and he but that hee which agreeth not with his aduersarie in the way shal be cast into prison from whence he shall neuer come whatsoeuer the matter were betwixt them there is but one prison from whence there is no deliuerance vntil the last farthing be payde which by those doctors exposition is neuer payde Whether the iniurie be greater or lesser the punishment is eternall without reconciliation or as Saint Luke sayeth diligence to be reconciled If thou being readie to offer thy gifte at the altar doest remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee goe and reconcile thy selfe sayeth Christe and agree quickly with him while thou art in the waye Marke that hee speaketh of all iniurie euen offered by anger or saying Racha and not onely of saying Fatue But as for that he which agreeth with his aduersary while he is in the way what trespasse soeuer hee hath done him he is not at all committed to prison were his iniurie great or small So that which He soeuer commeth into prison there is no waye of escape vntill hee haue payde the vttermost farthing which debt is alwayes in paying and neuer discharged Secondly whether the doctors giue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. First about the booke of Machabees Where I sayde that Allen pretendeth to proue the booke of Machabees by authoritie of the church when hee cannot by consent that it hath with the scriptures of GOD Bristowe replyeth as though all bookes are canonicall which haue consent with the Scriptures Fulk reioyneth that hee vnderstandeth not his argument so but that which hath not consent with other canonicall bookes is not canonicall Where I take exception to the Councel of Carthage which numbreth this booke among
the canonical scriptures as a Councell prouinciall Bristowe sayth it was by my confession confirmed in the sixt generall Councell of Constantinople in Trullo therfore it hath the authoritie of the whole true church But I tooke no exception to the generalitie therof But let it be as generall as you will both that and the Councel in Trullo erred by your owne iudgement seeing Carth. 3. Ca. 26. decreed against the authoritie of the Romane prelate euen by name as Gratian witnesseth Dist. 99. That in Trullo condemned Pope Honorius for a Monothelite heretike Art 16. 17. Beside this I alledge that this Councel of Carthage 3. among Canonicall Scriptures nameth fiue bookes of Salomon whereas the church alloweth but three Bristowe answereth out of Augustine which hee saith was one of the Councell that the booke of wisedome and Ecclesiasticus of a certeine similitude were called Salomons bookes whereas they were written by Iesus the sonn of Syrach although the former he retract in rest li. 2. Ca. 4. I aske no better to proue the errour of the Councell but that they named fiue of Salomon for three Secondly it appeareth by Augustine which was one of the Councell that although they called these books canonical yet they meant them not to be of equall authoritie with the rest of the scriptures Aug. cōtra Gaudent lib. 2. Ca. 23. And this scripture of the Machabees the Iewes count not as the Lawe the Prophets the Psalmes to whome our Lord giueth testimonie as to his witnesses saying it behoueth that all things should be fulfilled that are writtē of me in the law in that Prophets in the Psalms But it is receiued of the church not vnprofitably if it be soberly read heard Bristowe saith I ascribe vnto S. Augustine that which he reporteth of the Iewes when I say that he alloweth them not in full authoritie with the law the Prophets the Psalmes fraudulently omitting that which I cited out of Augustine in the continued sentēce that our Sauiour Christ appealeth to these onely witnesses namely the law the Prophets the Psalmes so the Iewes by ancient tradition diuide all the canonical bookes into these three orders Secondly where I note that Augustine alloweth not these bookes wtout condition of sobrietie in the reader or hearer Brist saith that all Catholikes S. Peter do require the same condition in the reader of the whole scriptures as S. Augustine doth in the Donatistes which defended the murthering of thēselues by example of Rasis out of the Machabees Wherunto I reply that although sobrietie be required in al readers of the holy scripture other writings also yet it is not required as a condition making the scriptures to be profitably receiued of the church if they be soberly read for howsoeuer the canonicall scriptures be read by whomsoeuer although he be mad drunk that readeth or heareth them yet are they not only profitably but also necessarily receiued of the church but this scripture of the Machabes saith Augustin it is receiued not vnprofitably if it be soberly read or heard Who seeth not a gret difference between this scripture receiued vnder condition the canonical scripture authorized by Christ him selfe But Augustine saith Brist the Councel call these canonical de doct Chr. li. 2. Ca. 8. In that place Augustine nameth al that by any church are counted canonical confessing in a maner as Bristow granteth that they were not all generally receiued of the whole church therfore instructeth the studēt of diuinitie to prefer some before others The reasons that I brought to proue this booke not to be canonical are these first because the author cōmendeth Rasis for killing himself which is contrary to Gods commaundment Bristow answereth out of Augustine that the scripture hath only told it not cōmended it But the place is manifest 2. Mach. 14. that the author of the booke doth not only report his murthering of him self but also doth highly cōmend his manfulnes therin willing saith he rather to dye valiantly than to giue him selfe into the hands of wicked men to suffer reproch vnworthie for his noble stock so forth to the ende of the Chapter Secondly I said that writer abridgeth the fiue bookes of Iason but the holy ghost maketh no abridgement of other mens writings Bristowe sayth the booke of Kings in many places abridgeth stories telling where they be written in other bookes that are not canonicall To this I answere the holy ghost abridgeth not the stories written by the spirite of man but for ciuile affaires sendeth the reader to other writers seeing they are out of his purpose to writ of them Furthermore he sayeth S. Marke is commonly called the Abridger of S. Matthewe I aunswere not so cōmonly as falsly for many things he rehearseth more largely then S. Mathewe and something he vtterly omitteth which is not the office of a true abridger And albeit that he did it were no answere to mine obiection that because the spirite of God telleth shortly that which he himself had told at large as in the Actes the sermons of the Apostles he is an abridger of Chronicles written by prophane men The citing of the saying of Poets Act. 17. Tit. 1. proueth not that the holy ghost intending to write an historie of the church vseth the labour of the prophane man Iason the Cyrenian I trow it is one thing to cite a verse or a piece of a verse to confute men by their owne receiued witnesses another thing to bring fiue bookes of an historie into one Thirdly I sayd the author of that booke confesseth that he toke that matter in hand that men might haue pleasure in it which could not away with the long tedious stories of Iason But the spirit of God serueth not such vaine delightes of men Brist asketh if profitable breuitie be a vaine delight but I speake not of the breuitie but the cause why he affected breuitie namely that men might haue pleasure in his worke Fourthly I said the author sheweth what labor sweat it was to him to make this abridgement ambitiously cōmendeth his trauell sheweth the difference between a storie at large an abridgement all which things sauour nothing of Gods spirit Also he confesseth his infirmitie and desireth pardon if he haue spoken slenderly and barely whereby hee testifieth sufficiently that he was no scribe of the holy ghost Bristow saith that he ambitiously commendeth his trauel is but my blasphemy all the rest standeth well ynough with the assistance of the holy ghost Concerning his ambitious cōmendation of his trauel where to serueth his great cōplaint of the great labour sweat watching the it cost him the wise similitude that he taketh of him that maketh a feast seeketh other mens commoditie hath no smal sauor so we also for many mens sake saith he are very well content to vndertake this great labour A great labour I promise you
and to great profite of many Likewise in the ende a passing good similitude of wine to finishe his booke which hee beganne with a feast As it is hurtfull to drinke wine alone and then againe water and as wine tempered with water is pleasant and delighteth the taste so the setting out of the matter deliteth the eares of them that reade the storie But to the rest Bristowe asketh if the scribes of the holy ghost must bee alwayes eloquent or able to doe all without sweat or labour I aunswere as vaine eloquence is not profitable for them so they neuer complain for the lack of it but spirituall vtterance they haue abundantly and that without sweat and watching whē they write as the spirite of God doth moue them Neither doth S. Paul confesse that he lacketh vtterance when he said he was rude in speaking 2. Cor. 11. but rehersed what the false Apostles did obiect against him for otherwise his speech was so eloquent in diuine eloquence that he was of the pagans at Lystra taken for Mercurie Act. 14. Neither doth hee excuse his boldnes writing to the Romans as Bristowe saith blasphemously but sheweth that he was bold vpō his office because he was the minister of Christ vnto the gentils Ro. 15 That he vsed the hand of Tertius in writing that Epistle or any other it was not to auoid the labor of endi ting Finally that he vsed intollerable paines in preaching It proueth not that it cost him great labor trauel in studying what to write or preach either which the spirit of God did minister vnto him plentifully But neuer doth he craue pardon as one vncerteine whether he haue don well or no as the writer of the Machabees doth confessing in the end that he hath done as wel as he could and in the beginning leauing to the author the exact diligēce of euery particular so submitting his labour as inferior in perfection to the worke of Iason the Cyrenian That I speake not of so many falshods and fables as hee affirmeth for truth which are refelled both by the former book of Machabees and by Iosephus Where Allen alleged the authority of Ierom in Prol. Mac. I said I knew not what place he noted therby for in S. Ieroms works none such is found now commeth Bristow telleth me it is in a preface before the booke of Machabees in the vulgar latine Bybles taken out of the sēse of Ierom as diuers of those prefaces be and that wil appeare by these two places which I cite out o◠him to proue that booke not canonicall The former is in his preface vpon the book of kings where rehersing the names of the canonical books he omitteth this and after saith expresly it is not in the Canon Bristow aunswereth it is not in the Canon of the Hebrewes As though the church of God since Christ shoulde haue more bookes of the olde testament in the canon then the church of the Hebrews had Ierom saith that this preface of his may be set before al the books which he hath translated out of Hebrew into latin v◠scire valeamus quicquid extrahos est inter Apocripha esse ponendū That we may be able to know that whatsoeuer is beside these is to be placed among the apocriphall writings So that Ierom speaketh expresly that not onely among the Iewes but among Christians also these al other books without the canon are to be taken for apocriphall The other place of Ierom is in his preface vppon the prouerbs that they were neither in the Churches canon Therefore euen as the church readeth in deede the bookes of Iudeth Tobias Machabees but yet receiueth them not among the canonicall scriptures so also these two books Ecclesiasticus and Sapientia she may reade to the edifying of the people but not to confirme the authoritie of the churches doctrin To wit saith Bristow against the Iewes as though the Churches doctrin is not to be cōfirmed against heretikes and euen to the Catholiks themselues by authoritie of the canonicall scriptures That Augustine accounteth these bookes canonicall after a sort it was of me confessed and therefore needed none other testimonies as Bristow bringeth de praed sanct de ciuit Dei lib. 18. cap. 36. But Ierom is also cited in his preface vpon the booke of Iudith to affirme the booke of Iudith to be canonicall by the councell of Nice if that were so what pertaineth it to the book of Machabees But in deede it is not so for though we shoulde doubt nothing of the credit of that preface in Iudith the words are these With the Hebrewes the booke of Iudith is redde among the hagiographaor books called holy writings whose authoritie to strengthen those things that come in controuersie is iudged lesse conuenient yet being written in the Chaldee tongue it is counted among the stories But because the Synod of Nice is redde to haue accounted it in the number of holy scriptures I haue yelded to your request c. First he saith it was reade of the Hebrewes among the Hagiographa which is false as Hierom affirmeth Prolog Gal. in lib. reg Secondly as Erasmus hath noted he affirmeth not that this booke was allowed by the Nicē councell but saith it is read to haue accounted perhaps in some such writer as coyned the canon sent vnto the Aphrican councell Thirdly if we shall vnderstand Hagiographa heere as Bristowe woulde haue them not for those nine that be canonicall but others that be Apocriphal yet holy writings why shoulde we not likewise say that the computatiō of the Nicen councel was to receiue it among such Apocriphall holy writings and not among the canonical scriptures of irrefragable authoritie And therfore Fulke is euen where he was before in saying that Ierom doth simply refuse the books of the Machabees saith the church receiueth thē not for canonicall euen that which Bristow saith I should haue shewed that the church neither did then nor ought afterwards to receiue them that we might be able to know saith he speaking I dare say of himselfe all other members of the Church that whatsoeuer books are without the Canō of the Hebrews are to be taken or placed among the apocriphal where I saide that Luther and Illyrieus were not the first that doubted of the Epistle of Saint Iames but Eusebiu before them saith plainly it is a counterfait protesting that I speake it not to excuse them that doubt of it Bristo◠is not content except I woulde condemne thē for heretikes which afterwarde reuersed their error especially Luther Also he chargeth me to be a falsarie of Eusebius in saying that he refuseth that Epistle as a counterfeite when he saith the cleane contrary and so rehearseth the words of Eusebius I know not out of whose translation But the words of Eusebius are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It must bee knowne that it is a bastard or counterfeit 2 About onely scripture I said Cyprian
of theirs how they should be receiued though it be not resolued yet can not disprooue them to be the true Church nor proue the Donatists to be the Church seeing there can be but one Where out of this Booke Cap. 16. I shewe that Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted only by Scriptures secondly that neither councells succession of Bishoppes vniuersality miracles visions dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but only the Scriptures Bristowe saith they are notes with the Scripture as he hath shewed in his demaund I answere whatsoeuer agreeth with the Scripture may well be receiued But the Scripture without all these is sufficient to trie the Church as Augustine sheweth therefore all the rest of Bristowes motiues might be spared if he durst ioyne issue vpon the Scripture only as Augustine doth but that he dare not do He hath a great quarrell of Augustine for translating manifestatur is proued as though Augustine saide that true miracles and visions lacke waight and fashion of iust probation If you call true miracles that are done indeede and not counterfeited I say that all such make no iust probation For God tempteth his Church by such to see if they will forsake his commandement Deut. 13. But those that be true miracles indeede are ioyned with the truth of doctrine which being tryed by the worde of God to be such confirme it or prepare mens mindes vnto it of themselues neuer sufficient to auouch true doctrine without Gods worde and therefore I will stil tâ—â—nslate manifestatur is manifestly prooued or shewed which is alone Moreouer out of Augustine Cont. Epist. sundam Cap. 4. I shewed that though consent and vniuersality antiquity succession be good confirmation when they are ioyned with truth yet when trueth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all Bristowe saith that Augustine graunteth not that the truth can be separated from them Yes verily or else he should haue stood vpon that poynt only that truth can not be seuered from those markes which vndoubtedly the Catholique Church had and the Manichees wanted And although he saide the Church had most syncere wisdom yet he saith not that wheresoeuer was antiquity succession c. there must needs be the most syncere wisdome Lastly out of the booke De Pastoribus Cap. 14. I affirmed that mans auctority is too weake to carry away so waighty a matter as was in question vsing the wordes of Augustine Auferantur chartae humanae c. Let mens papers be remoued let the voices of God be heard shewe me one place of Scripture for Donatus side c. Bristowe rehearsing the saying more at large as I did Ar. 14. asketh what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse hee thinketh he hath any vantage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it decrees Surely whether the worde be well or ill translated I seeke no vantage therof and yet if I should change my translations I would rather call Acta actes of the Court or recordes then Courtrolles as you doe But euery man may see what vantage you clasp at among ignorant persons by your false translation of Chartae humanae mens Court papers as though the worde of Augustine were not generall to remoue all mens writings and to vrge only the Scripture But the Church beginning at Hierusalem spreading ouer all Nations to the very last time which Augustine in all places proueth against the Donatists maketh much against vs in Bristowes opinion Nay rather against the Papists which restraine the Church into the Romishe rable which we affirme both is and was alwaies scattered ouer al the world although greater in number at some times then at other some seeing that Mahomet hath infected a greate part of the worlde and yet among the Mahometists we doubt not but Christ hath his members that neuer bowed their knee either to Mahomet of Mecha or to the Pope of Rome 3 About certaine traditions The oblations Pro natalitiis spoken of before Cap. 6. Par. 1. 5. I saide those oblations with other superstitions fathered vpon tradition of the Apostles by the Nicen other councels as Rhenanus witnesseth are abrogated Bristowe answereth that he speaketh neuer a worde of any other traditions Yet Bristowe confesseth him selfe that many of them are abrogated Cap. 6. Par. 1. 4. 5. 4 About the marriage of Votaries The two places one of Epiphanius the other of Hieronyme whiche I cited for the Marriage of Votaries Bristo we sayeth are about a matter which they holde euen as those fathers did But in deede they holde the contrary for they helde the marriage of such lawfull the Papistes dissolue them and say they are no marriages It is better saith Epiphanius to haue one sinne and not many It is better for him that is fallen from his course opeÌ„nly to take a wife according to the lawe and of long time to repent from his virginitie and so to be brought againe to the Church as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken hauing neede to be bounde rather then to be wounded daily with priuie dartes of that wickednesse which the deuil putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preache these are the medicines of healing Bristowe saith I gather that marriage is an wholsome medicine for such men Contrarie to that I confesse my selfe that he calleth it a sinne But he slaundereth me as he doeth often I saide Epiphanius doth count it an offence to marry because it was a breache of vowe but neither he nor I saide that marâ—iâ—ge is a sinne Bristowe saith likewise the Apostles tradition calleth it a sinne But he slandereth the tradition or Epiphanius the reporter thereof euen as he did me The words are Hae. 61. Tradiderunt c. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that it is a sin after virginity decreed to be turned to marriage They say not marriage is a sinne but by breache of vowe to marrie is a sinne For their sinn cannot pollute the ordinance of God But the wholsome medicines are penance reconciliation saith Bristowe And why not marriage I pray you whatsoeuer is good for the diseased is an wholsom medicine to take a wife openly is good for the diseased therefore marriage also is a wholesome medicine As for your distinction of solemne vowe and sole vow is a very bable Epiphanius speaketh generally of al that had vowed virginity To the place of Hierome Ad Demetriadem he answereth that they which of two sinnes will needes committ one they counsell them to committ the lesse rather then the greater But Hierom maketh no comparison of sinnes but saith to such virgins as liued incontinently It must be plainly saide to them that either they should marry if they cannot containe or else they should containe if they will not marry 5. About the reall presence and transubstantiation About these pointes I will not stande considering
quietly coÌ„fesse that Augustine brought much superstitioÌ„ into this Island yet not the whole substance of Poperie but the principal most necessarie grounds of Christianitie where I affirmed that in many things the faith religion of the old Saxons was contrarie to that the Papists now do hold as by diuers monuments of antiquitie may be proued Bristowe with a double negatiue would haue it seeme impossible Because in S. Bedes storie and in all his workes c. we find nothing against the Pope nor against any one point of his doctrine What I haue found in S. Bedes storie and other monuments of the Saxons religion I haue set forth in confutation of Stapletons Fortresse As for that printed Saxon Homily which is against real presence transubstantiation which Bristowe saith was so soone so diligently called in againe it is abroad in the hands of many neuer called in that euer I heard of but hath since the first setting forth of it bene printed three or foure times in Maister Foxes booke of Actes and Monumentes In the tenth and twelfth Demands of Miracles and visions where I had cited the admonition of the Apostle 2. Thessalon 2. that the comming of Antichrist should be in all lying signes and wonders Bristowe asketh me what Scripture telleth me that after the reuelation of Antichrist there shall be none but feigned miracles Wheras I inferred no such thing vpon the text but shew euen that which he blameth me not to haue shewed howe to knowe seigned miracles from vnfeigned namely by the doctrine which they are saide to confirme according to the Scripture Deut. 13. Where I saide that Augustine De vnit eccle cap. 16. will allowe no miracles and visions for sufficient proofes without the authoritie of Scriptures Bristowe saith I doe shamefully abuse my reader for he saith expressely What so euer such thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church Yea sir but it followeth that the Church is not shewed to be Catholike because such things are done but as he saith there and else where onely by the Scriptures But Bristowe will haue me allowe all the miracles that Saint Augustine speaketh of because they were done in the Catholike Church As though Saint Augustine made that the sufficient cause to allowe any thing that was done or saide to be done without ioyning that they were done to confirme the Catholike faith Cyprians miracles could not iustifie his error In the Popish Church the sectes of Dominicanes and Franciscanes in their dissention about the Conception of the virgin Marie boasted both of their miracles yet Bristowe will not I weene allowe both their miracles except he will allowe both their opinions which were contradictorie Againe many things are feigned euen in the Catholike Church by peruerse zeale to confirme truth as the historie of Paule and Tecla confessed by a Priest of Asia Tert. de bapt Neither wil Bristow I thinke defend that al the miracles contained in the Alcoran of Frances Vitas patrum Legendâ—â—â—rea dormi securè sermones discipuli promptuariuÌ„ exemplorum Festiual and liues of so manie Saints as are written be all true and none feigned although they all serue to proue Poperie Wherefore it may be that euen some of those miracles that S. Augustine doth report might of emulation and vnordered zeale be feigned by some Catholikes to winne credite to the Church against heretikes That Luther and Caluine whome he affirmeth not able to heale a lame horse attempted wonders it is as impudent a lie and grosse forgerie as that Liâ—danus telleth that Luther was begotten of the diuell And yet there be diuers horseleaches among the Protestants that haue healed more lame horses then euer S. Loy did either when he liued or since he was worshipped of the Papistes as an excellent horseleach Passing ouer 5. Demandes which he doth only name In the 18. of destroying idolatrie he saith that to all that he said I say nothing but like a cuckowe You haue not destroied idolatrie but set vp idolatrie not waying saith Bristowe that I tell him according to the Prophets that we haue throughly conuerted all nations from idolatrie that we haue made them forget also the names of their idols In deede that which Bristow telleth me is of great weight and therefore I am belike to blame to wey it no more but as bare wordes without matter and winde without reason or authoritie Otherwise I thinke I haue proued that the Papistes haue conuerted fewe nations from Paganisme and them whome they haue turned they haue rather chaunged the idols then taken away the idolatrie or rather the verie names then the idols themselues seeing there was neuer an idol almost among the Gentiles but they retaine the idolatrie vnder the name of one Saint or other They had Castor and Pollux you haue Loy and George they had Februa or Febris you haue Fiacre that which Iuno Lucina was to their women the virgine Marie is to yours c. In the 19 Demaund of Kings and Emperors Bristowe saith that although I chalenge the Kings of the first 600 yeares to be of our religion yet I bring no proofe at all as though the proofe of the doctrine of saluation receiued in that time which we hold is no proofe at all But I 〈◊〉 not aunswered so much as that Allen alledgeth â—â—we Constantinus receiued the sentence of the priestes 〈◊〉 at Nice as pronounced of God What neede any 〈…〉 were to this we honour it likewise But Bristowe such I confesse there was praier for his soule according 〈◊〉 the error of his time And he addeth that there was 〈◊〉 for his soule with intercession of the Apostles in 〈…〉 ose honour it was offered at their reliques and their â—â—mple and all by procurement of Constantinus him selfe Euseb. in vita Const. lib 4. cap. 58. 59. 60. 66. 71. First cap. 58. there is nothing but that Constantine builded a Church which should be called the memorie of the Apostles Cap. 59. followeth the description of the same Church and his intent that the memorie of Christes Apostles by that sumptuous building should be continued alwaies among all nations Cap. 60. his purpose is shewed that he being buried there might be made partaker of the praiers that should be there made in the honour of the Apostles meaning the praiers made to God which manie moued by deuotion of that glorious memorie of the Apostles should make Cap. 66. is nothing but a description of a magnificent funerall pompe prepared Cap. 71. are those praiers which the people made for his soule that I spake of and beside that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. The tombe of the thrise happie soule beautified with the name of the Apostles and adioined to the people of God and made worthie of the diuine ceremonies and mysticall liturgie or seruice and inioining the communion of holie praiers But of sacrifice for his soule with the
describeth that which was seldome or neuer vsed among them rather then that which was vniformely obserued in all their meetinges But out of the scripture I reason affirmatiuely reiecting all the beggerly ceremonies of poperie because God is to be worshipped in spirite truth and yet in an other place I admit som furniture therefore saith Bristowe that I haue misused this text with much babbling to little purpose Mine answere is that although some external rites are necessarie for order and decencie yet the true and proper worshippe of God is onely in spirite and veritie and consisteth not in externall rites no not when they are best vsed Secondly against popishe lessons responses versicles lewde lyes and vncertaine tales read and songe as Gods seruice c. I alledged Mathewe 15. In vaine doe they worship me c. Here he taxeth mine ignorance in the scripture saying that the precepts of men are those which be of men and not of GOD. And are not lewde lyes and vncertaine tales such yea all your vaine distinctions of popish seruice for which you cannot shewe any one commaundement of GOD nor allowance of the Godly Church but of the synagogue of Sathan which your beggerly Logike craueth in this aunswere to be taken for the Catholike Church of Christ. After this he chargeth me to falsifie the Councel of Laodicea cap. 59. when I say it decreed That nothing should be song or read in the Church but the Canonicall bookes of the holie Scripture Vnto which accusation I aunswere that I gaue the summe of the Councel truely and without any falsification That nothing should be read in the Church beside the Canonicall bookes of the Scripture which are there named Bristowe confesseth and the wordes of the Canon are plaine This is sufficient to ouerthrowe Popish lessons where of nine most commonly not one is of the Scripture But Bristowe will make three Councels of Carthage ca. 47. to expound this Canon of Laodicea where it is commaunded that nothing be read vnder the name of the diuine Scriptures but only the Canonical Scriptures If this exposition were allowed yet Popish seruice is not discharged for therein the Machabees and other Apocryphall Scriptures which the Councel of Laodicea doth reiect are read as the diuine Scriptures And as for matters to be soung the Councel reiecting Psalmes made by vnskilfull persons meaneth to admit none but either the Psalmes and Hymnes of the Scripture or at least such as are consonant vnto them and therefore would neuer haue admitted that blasphemous versicle or what the diuel so euer you call it Tu per Thomae sanguinem quem pro te impendit Fac nos Christe scandere quò Thomas ascendit By the bloud of Thomas which for thee he did spend Make vs Christ to climbe whither Thomas did ascend Nor a great number of such not onely vnlearned songs but wicked and hereticall ditties that are contained in your Popish portuise Where I said the festiuall daies were kept of the primitiue Church not in honour of the Saints as they are of the Papistes but only for the memorie of the Martyrs c. to imitation Bristowe opposeth a saying of Augustine which to imitation addeth consociation to the merites and aide of their praiers Cont. Faust. lib. 20. cap. 21. As for fellowship of their worthinesse is the fruit of imitation the helpe of their praiers is a smacke of that declining time which Bristowe alwaies obtrudeth to vs as the onely primitiue Church which I vnderstand for the first Church of the Apostles and that which was most auncient next vnto them Where I cite out of Augustine de ver rel cap. 55. that Saints and Angels were of Christians in his time honoured with loue not with seruice for imitation not for religion First Bristowe asketh whether he doth not expressely here auouch their honouring Yes verily and as expressely he denieth that they are to be honoured with seruice of religion But seruitus with Bristowe is not the Latine of the Greeke word Dulia it is but mine vnacquaintance is Saint Augustines writings If mine acquaintance in S. Augustines writings were as smal as his skill is in the Greeke language I might be accounted a great straunger in them But let vs heare what Bristowes familiaritie with Saint Augustine hath found of the signification of Dulia De ciuit Dei lib. 10. cap. 1. Latriam quippe nostri vbicunque c. Where so euer in the holie Scriptures is put Latria our interpreters haue translated it seruitus c. verie well therefore the olde Latine interpreters iudged Latria and Doulia to be all one For euen so haue they translated Doulia alwaies by the word seruitus as Exod 6. 13 20. Rom. 8. Gal. 4. 5. Heb. 2. Wherefore Saint Augustine not finding a proper Latine worde to expresse the worship of God and chosing Latria the Greeke word doth onely shewe howe it was his pleasure to vse the terme and not what the worde doth properly signifie For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 differeth not from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in signification as euen Suidas doth confesse although he say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a seruice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for wages And therefore like a learned Grecian Bristowe saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is synonomum to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer vsed but for worship of GOD or superstition or religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a generall name for any kinde of seruice due either to GOD or men But what shall I reason with such a blocke as challengeth all authenticall seruice that euer hath bene in any Church to be the Popish seruice although it differ from it both in forme and matter euen as before he saide that Iustines description is the verie summe of the Masse Concerning the tongue in which the seruice is Bristowe saith it maketh no difference in the seruice it selfe but because I holde that it ought to be in the vulgar tongues he will consider my groundes thereof First the fourteenth of the first to the Corinthians proueth it not because he speaketh there of a miraculous gift of tongues A strong reason I promise you nay much rather if a speciall gift of the holie Ghoste must giue place to the edifying of the Church much rather an vnknowne tongue superstitiously vsurped must be abolished Secondly he saith Saint Paule doth not reiect the gift but moderate it for the varietie of certaine much like to some Protestantes that thinke all learning to be the tongues and quoteth Pur. 7. It was not meete that Saint Paule should reiect a gift of the holie Ghost but shewe the right vse of it But where Bristowe noteth me to thinke all learning to be the tongues and quoteth the place he sheweth him selfe to bee a shamelesse lier for although I exemplifie such learning as is most necessarie for the vnderstanding of the Scriptures by knowledge of tongues and rationall sciences yet it followeth
without succession vnto their blasphemous sacrificing Priesthood But let vs see what balde reason he bringeth to proue that we haue translated the Priesthood First we haue laboured to chaunge the Apostolicall names of Episcopus and Presbyter into superintendent elder So a translation out of Greeke into Latine or English is a chaunge with him and such as may not be abidden for he reproueth me for translating Presbyterum in Cyprian an elder Secondly I helpe an other argument of theirs concluding out of Ephes. 4. that the Popish Hierarchie is no part of Christian Ministerie by which I declare that we haue chaunged the Priesthoode of the Primitiue Church which had Popish Bishops Priestes Deacons Subdeacons Exorcistes Cantors Acolytes Ostiaries for which he citeth Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 34. where there is no such matter named either in the Greeke or Latine computation of Grynaeus I confesse the names are auncient and the offices in the Primitiue Church were some necessarie some profitable but I speake of the Popish Hierarchie in which nothing remaineth but the names But Bristowe thinketh I do not consider that S. Paule nameth there the onely Ministers of the worde or preachers Yes verily and therfore I exclude all these Popish orders which are such euery one of them as may be and are giuen to men that are no preachers or ministers of the word As for the order of Christian Deacons for ministring to the poore and Elders of gouernement I knowe they are not to be sought in that rehearsall But for those Popish orders that Bristow saith belong to the ministerie of the altar the Scripture speaketh no one word of them Yet he saith I may see the distinction of them Act. 13. where some preachers had not orders 1. Tim. 3. where some good Priestes do not labour in the word and doctrine Concerning the first place I knowe not what he meaneth except he thinke Paule and Barnabas were not Apostles before handes were laid on them and they dismissed to preach abroad among the Gentiles Or else that those Prophetes and teachers named in the beginning of the Chapter had nowe orders which howe he proueth I maruell specially seeing other Papistes doe vnderstand the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth ministring for their sacrificing As for the other place is of Elders of gouernement and not Priestes of the Altar That the auncient writers vsed the names of Sacerdotes Leuitae Pontifices it was not because the ministers of the Gospell are a species or kinde of them but abusiuely for a certaine similitude of the Leuiticall order and Priesthoode with the ministers of the word and sacraments Thirdly he saith the Apostles Bishops and Priestes were made by other Bishops and Priestes ours by Lay men as of Kings and ciuile Magistrates which is an impudent slaunder Fourthly wee confesse their orders to bee good ynough because we reorder not them which is false for I saide their admission of the Church is a newe calling Bristowe saith that is a newe way to giue orders shewing him selfe ignorant that euen in the olde Church suche as were ordained by some heretikes were receiued after they had abiured their heresie to continue in the degree of the Cleargie as of the Nouatians Concil Nicen. cap. 8. Wherefore the rest of his babbling O your Diuinitie O your Scripture as that I bring nothing to defend Pilkington not to be a mocke Bishop but his excellent learning and diligent preaching c. I passe ouer as also the great preaching which nowe at the last is in Popish countries where within these threescore yeares was as great silence as in England at the same time Fiftly arguments neede not where I denie all Priesthoode but the spirituall Priesthoode common to all Christians Sixtly If I will inuent a thirde Priesthoode hee saith that the Primitiue or Fathers Priesthoode was according to the order of Melchisedech and to offer sacrifice in breade and wine as Melchisedek Christ did Beware what you say of a sacrifice of bread and wine offered by you Christ as by Melchisedek But you regarde not our arguments they be but obiections At leastwise I pray you answere our obiections or else they wil be argumentes to proue you all blasphemous vsurpers of Christs singular priesthood But that you wil doe at leasure first you will proue your priesthood out of Augustine Contr. aduers. Leg. Prophet Lib. Cap. 19 20. Where he defendeth the sacrifice of the Church to be after the order of Melchisedek and yet but a sacrifice of praise So that you haue neither your sacrifice propitiatorie whereof the controuersie is nor your particular priesthood for he saith The Church from the Apostles time c. doth offer to God in the body of Christ a sacrifice of praise c. not after the order of Aaron but after the order of Melchisedeck Now who knoweth not that the sacrifice of praise is a spiritual sacrifice common to al the Church and not peculiar to any special order of priesthood So that S. Augastine naming the order of Melchisedek alludeth to those places of the scripture in which all Christians are called a royall priesthood Kinges and priestes 1. Pet. 2. Apoc. 1. but neuer intended to make the singular priesthood of Christ confirmed to him by oath Psalm 110. and which passeth not from him Heb. 7. common to ministers of the Church If you obiect He speaketh of celebration of the sacrament which is peculiar to them I answere although the ministration of the sacrament be proper vnto them yet the sacrifice of praise offered in the celebration is common to the whole Church as Augustine both here and else where affirmeth So that although a sacrifice be graunted yet a special priesthood is not proued But the sacrifice of the crosse was both of thankesgiuing of propitiatiō he troweth and therfore the memoriall sacrifice of the altar to be the one what doth it let to be the other This argument standing vpon Bristowes trowing and confounding the members of a diuision shall haue none other answere for me The places that I cite out of Ambrose ad virg laps de virgin Lib. 1. to proue that he vseth the names of sacrifice and propitiation vnproperly as other of the fathers doe Bristow will not allow as sufficient saying I might as wel so argue that S. Paule speaketh vnproperly because he saith our bodies by mortification to be made a liuing sacrifice whereas the Apostle Heb. 10. saith Christs body by death to be made a sacrifice And what offence is it to say S. Paule speaketh vnproperly where he speaketh figuratiuely as when he saith the rock was Christ. Howbeit in this example of Bristow there is great difference but that such a blunderer as he cannot see it which confoundeth the propitiatorie sacrifice of Christ with the eucharisticall sacrifice of Christians as he confounded them both in the sacrifice of the Crosse the one could not be offered without death of the
with his censure was countermanded by many Bishops 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 They did countermaund him or gaue him contrarie commaundement to set his minde on things pertaining to peace and vnitie and loue of his neighbour Irenaeus in his Epistle to Victor shewing that Polycarpus could not be persuaded by Anicetus Bishop of Rome in some small things wherein they differed declared that it was not then of Polycarpus or him selfe otherwise thought but that the Bishop of Rome might erre The other example I brought was of Stephanus Bishop of Rome misliked by Dionysius Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 2. 3. 4. 5 c. sharply reproued by Cyprian accusing him of presumption and contumacie Epist. ad Pomp. because he threatened excommunication to Hilenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches of Asia thinking that such as were baptized by heretikes should be baptized againe Also Cyprian in his Epist. ad Quirinum saying that Peter himselfe was not so arrogant nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the primacie and that other men should obey him as his inferiors Bristowe saith none of these denied the primacie of Peter I say they al denied the primacie of autoritie although Cyprian in the same place saith For neither Peter whom our lord chose first which argueth no primacie but of order vpō whom he builded his Church when Paule did afterward dissent from him about circumcision did boast him self or take vpon him any thing insolently or arrogantly that he should say he held the primacie and that he ought rather to be obeyed of newe scholers and aftercommers Here you see it had bene in Cyprians iudgement a point of insolencie and arrogancie in Peter if he had challenged the primacie of authoritie and certaintie of trueth against al men But Bristowe saith when there was no remedie but they must yeeld or be Schismatikes because Stephanus would no longer tolerate them they did like Catholike men for all their Councels conforme their newe practise to the old custome and quoteth August de bapt cont Donat. lib. 5. cap. 23. 25. where there is no such matter also he referreth vs to his fift Demaund where he citeth Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 2. 3. 4. 5. but neither is it there testified Only cap. 6. Dionysius chaungeth his iudgement being admonished in a vision and that he had learned that not nowe onely but of olde time both in Aphrica and other places the trueth was receiued c. but of any constraint for feare of being Schismatikes if they dissented from the bishop of Rome there is no word The place of Hierome ad Euagrium which I cited Pur. 374. defending a custome of the whole Church against a custome of the Church of Rome Bristowe saith doth not proue a Church a rule of trueth and Christianitie without the bishop and Church of Rome because Hierome saith as also there I cite Nec altera c. we must not thinke that there is one Church of the citie of Rome and an other of all the world c. By which wordes he sheweth that the Church of Rome if she will be a member of the Catholike Church must conforme her selfe to the Church of all the world and not the Church of all the world conforme her selfe to the Church of Rome Where I say we beleeue the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour on earth but Christ vnto whome al power is giuen in heauen and earth Bristowe obiecteth suppose that one Christian King or Emperour should reigne sometime as farre as the Church reacheth To this impossible supposition I aunswere that one King should haue no more authoritie than euerie King hath nowe But Bristowe obiecteth that Kings and Queenes be no more named among S. Paules officers c. Ephes. 4. 1. Cor. 12. and therefore as a Puritane belike I would pull them downe In the motiue of Apes he discharged me from being a Puritane by his censure but now he burdeneth me to be a Puritane so farre that I should also be a traitour as he and all his fellowes are To his wise obiection I aunswere that as Kings and Queenes are not named among Saint Paules officers so they are no Ecclesiasticall but ciuill Magistrates and the Church may be without them as it was many hundreth yeares Yet when Kings and Queenes are Christians they haue chiefe authoritie ouer persons and in causes Ecclesiasticall as farre as the godlie Kings of Israel and Iuda had Dauid Solomon Iehosophat Ezechias Iosias c. But Christ professing that all power is giuen him Matthew 28. signifieth that with good authoritie he might commit what authoritie he would and therefore biddeth all his Apostles goe teach and baptize◠and to one of them singularly feede my lambes and my sheepe No maruel though my ignorance in the scriptures be often reproued when such learned conclusions come from Bristowe Christ saide to one feede my lambes and sheepe therefore he saide it singularly and he hath vniuersall charge and all his successors to But for the Popes supremacie the Apostle saith expresly 1. Cor. 12. the heade vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie to me But who taught you to foyst in your owne glosse vnder Christ when the Apostle speaketh of the members of a naturall bodie wherevnto euerie seueral cōgregation and the whole church also is like If you seeke the head of euery seuerall congregation you must looke to the chiefe gouernours thereof but if you seeke the head of the whole Church the scripture teacheth but one which is Christ for one head vnder another in one whole body is monstrous But you thinke perhaps Christ as he is head of his Church may say to the feete he hath no neede of them and therefore it must be vnderstoode of an head vnder Christ but then you must remember that although Christ be most perfect in him selfe yet as he vouchsafeth to take vpon him this office to be head of the Church he is not perfect without al his members which is the singular comfort of Gods children Ephe. 1. ver last But Saint Paule Ephe. 4. as Bristowe saith vnder the name of the Apostles includeth the successors of the Apostle S. Peter whose see for that cause is called the Apostolike see in singular maner and their decrees and actes esteemed of Apostolike authoritie in al antiquitie This cause is a shameles and senseles lie for no antiquitie for 600. yeares after Christ so esteemed the see or the decrees therof Again what reason is it that Peters successors should be included more thē the successors of the other Apostles seeing this souereigntie of Peter is not grounded vpon his Apostleship but vpon his Bishoplike office as Sander maintaineth As for the principalitie of Apostleship principalitie of the Apostles chaire which he quoteth out of August de bapt Cont. Don. li. 2. ca. 1. epi. 162. haue often bene shewed to be vnsufficient to make euery one of Peters successors equal with Peter in
authoritie or Peter him selfe superiour to the rest of the Apostles And consequently there is no cause to thinke that calamitie of the Greekes to be fallen vpon them for departing from that see In the 29. Demaund of Traditions where I charge Papistes out of Irenaeus lib. 3. 2. to be like to the Valentinians which accused the scriptures of imperfection saying that they are ambiguous and that the trueth can not be found in them by such as knewe not the tradition which was not deliuered by writing but by worde of mouth c. Bristowe answereth that S. Irenee him selfe as al Catholikes will haue both scripture and tradition Yea sir but what tradition any trueth of doctrine conserued by tradition which is not contained in the holie scriptures nothing lesse But appealeth to the testimonie of the Churches tradition for confirmation of that which is taught in the scriptures Hunc patrem c. This father of our Lorde Iesus Christ to be preached of the Churches they that wil may learne out of the scripture it selfe and vnderstand the Apostolike tradition of the Church seeing the Epistle is auncienter than they which nowe teach falsely c. So that what so euer the Apostles deliuered is contained in their writinges and it is still an hereticall assertion to say that all true doctrine is not deliuered by writing but some by word of mouth In the 34. Demaund of Authoritie where I affirme the order of the Apostles schoole is first to heare the word of God preached and then to beleeue Rom. 10. reprouing Allen which commended his friend that he first beleeued and afterward sought to vnderstand Bristowe obiecteth the authoritie of Augustine lib Retr 1. cap. 14. where he sheweth the cause whie he did write his booke de vtilitate credendi to haue ben for that the Manichees derided the discipline of the Catholike faith that men were commaunded to beleeue not taught by most certaine reason what was true whose slaunder Augustine confuteth in that booke and not defendeth Bristowes preposterous order As for examples of beleeuing Christ and his Apostles without requiring a reason of their doctrine howe vaine it is I leaue to children to laugh at seeing I speak not of reason but of the word of God preached which must needes goe before faith Neither doth Augustine meane any otherwise in his booke de vtil cred cap. 13. where he saith It is rightly appointed by the maiestie of the Catholike discipline that faith before all things is persuaded to them which come to religion But howe should faith be persuaded but by the preaching of the word of God without curious inquisition according to the reason of man Where I say that Protestants wil be ruled by their superiors so far as their superiors are ruled by the word of God Bristow derideth their authoritie who by our own confession may swarue from the truth of Gods word as though the Popish superiors might not or their supreme head although beside so many blasphemous errors as he holdeth wherof the controuersie is with the Papistes it haue not bene oft proued that diuers Popes haue bene condemned euen by generall Councels for heretikes Where I saide the Greeke Church will be ruled by the Patriake of Constantinople and the orientall Churches by their Patriarkes and Bishops Bristowe saith if I knewe the storie of the Florentine Councel wherein the Patriarkes agreed with the Catholikes Church in all things and yet could not reduce their countries from schisme I would not so say But I knewe that storie before Bristow knewe whether he would become a professed Papist or no. This consent is a forged paper found in the hande of Ioseph the Patriarke who died soudenly but in no acte of that Councel any such submission or agreement in all things appeareth but the contrarie Where I saide that to beleeue the Catholike Church is not to beleeue all and euery thing which the Catholike Church doth maintaine Bristowe would haue me suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam ecclesiam and then asketh howe I would haue construed it Verily euen as I conster Credo ecclesiam Catholicam And so would I conster Credo Sanctas scripturas Canonicas c. But if the Apostles would haue taught vs to giue credite to the Church of Rome in all things they would haue taught vs to say Credo Romanae ecclesiae And Credo scripturis Canonicis duodecim Apostolis quatuor Euangelistis c. I giue credite to the holy scriptures to the twelue Apostles and to the foure Euangelistes For Credo with an Accusatiue case to signifie I giue credite howe so euer you deride my grammatication will not be admitted in the kingdome of Grammarians except his holinesse will doe as much for that terme as he is reported to haue done once for fiatur In the 35. Demand of Vnitie where I said the Church may be called the house of peace because there is in it peace and agreement in the chiefest articles of faith Bristowe saith by this reason many olde heresies were with in the house of peace because any one article be it of the chiefest or of the meanest may breake peace as that of quartadecimani who disagreed onely in the day of Easter but that and such like disagrements in opinion might be in the house of peace as Irenaeus testifieth if obstinate contempt of generall order did not make a schisme and of a schisme an heresie as in the Donatistes Otherwise difference in a ceremonie as I said maketh not diuision of faith Bristowe saith yes if they holde their ceremonie necessarie But then they holde it not as a ceremonie or the Churches ceremonie vnlawfull But that maketh not diuision Polycarpus thought his ceremonie to be the right ceremonie against Anicetus yet he was not diuided from him for he considered the errour in a ceremonie not to be of such importance that it ought to breake the vnitie of the Church And therefore he refused not to communicate with Anicetus nor Anicetus with him No more doe they among vs that differ in opinion of ceremonies except some fewe schismaticall heades that are condemned of all men for their contention and stubbornesse The difference of opinions betweene the Popish Diuines and Canonistes Bristowe saith are such as may be among Christians as Augustine testifieth Cont. Iul. lib 1. cap. 2. de bapt Cont. Don. lib. 1. cap. 18. vntil a general Councel allowe some part for cleare and pure but we will not allowe the authoritie of any generall Councel if Bristowe may be beleeued If we might haue a Christiā generall Councel for such matters as are in controuersie among vs I doubt not but we should agree better then the Papistes which boast so much of vnitie As for the contention of the Popes and Councels superioritie remaineth still among you notwithstanding the Florentine Councel which you say most impudently that I confesse to haue resolued the matter when an other Councel and an other Pope at the same time
determined against it In the 36. Demand of Owners or Keepers of the scriptures where I say the primitiue Church which commendeth the scripture vnto vs doth not condemne Luther or his doctrine for heresie Bristowe saith it doth in Aerius Iouinian Vigilantius c. as though there were no primitiue Church before these men which commended the scripture vnto vs and yet knewe neither praier for for the deade nor superstition of reliques or any thing that Luther held with those men Where I taxe the blindnesse of the Popish Church not discerning the scriptures Canonicall from Apocryphall Bristowe bringeth in a saying of Augustine shewing that it is of necessitie for him to beleeue the Actes of the Apostles if he beleeue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth both the scriptures alike vnto him But I haue shewed that the Maccabees Ecclesiasticus Iudeth c. are not commended to vs by the Catholike or vniuersall authoritie of the Church After other contentious pointes stoutly affirmed or denied without proofe he commeth to charge me with a substantiall lie because I say our Church which is the onely true Catholike Church hath alwaies had right and possion of the worde of God as appeareth by this that our Church beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them If this be not a notable plea Bristowe reporteth him to our Lawiers But I report me to al Logicians whether it be not a good argument by prouing vs to be the true Church to claime continuall right and possession of the scriptures as for the noueltie of Luther our cōgregatiō is a weake plea to dispossesse vs of the Church when y◠antiquitie of our faith and religion proueth vs to be of the oldest Church and therefore the only true Church Where Allen made his offer that if I could shewe any Church that hath safely kept the scriptures sauing the Popish Church he would recant I shew him the Greeke and Easterne Churches which are not Popish whervpon he is bound by his offer to recant yet Bristowe without all shame saith Euery article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the Church but some only that you be not the Church True it is that neither euery one nor any of them all are sufficient to proue that you are the Church and not we But that Allen meant they were sufficient it is manifest by that he promiseth to recant if any of them can be proued to agree to any other than to the Popish Church In the eight and thirtie Demand of old Heresies where I shewed that many of the Popish ceremonies were first instituted by heretikes aunswering directly to Allens challenge that offered to recant if any man could proue that any Church but theirs had instituted all their ceremonies Bristowe saith they are such matters as agree none otherwise to them then to those whome I dare not condemne c. Which if it were so yet doth it not shewe but that I haue aunswered Allens challenge and therefore do according to his promise claime his recantation Of the Messalians or Martyrians I saide they learned first to shaue their beardes and let their lockes growe long Bristowe out of Epiphanius saith they did let their haire growe long like women The Popish Priestes doe not so but round them Yet can he not proue out of Epiphanius that the Messalians did not keepe their haire in order by rounding or otherwise Further he saith some Protestants doe so I aunswere none of ceremonie doth so Thirdly Priestes in Italie and Spaine doe poll their heads and keepe their beardes I answere they keepe the text of the decree and you the glosse which saith statuimus id est abrogamus c. We decree that is we abrogate that Clearkes neither weare long haire nor shaue their beardes Last of all he saith I haue no great matters to charge them with when I lay their haires to their charge My reply is that my charge goeth no further then Allens challenge which vrgeth me to shewe any other to haue first instituted any one ceremonie in Poperie but the Popes only Catholike Church And so I say to the superstitious masking garmentes instituted by the Pharisees although the auncient Church about foure or fiue hundreth yeares after Christe receiued such robes in vse Also the daily vse of Popish holie water to put men in minde of baptisme had an elder institution of the Hemerobaptistae that were baptized or washed euerie day Here Bristowe with a verie stale iest acknowledgeth their fault and layeth it vpon Saint Paule who hath deceiued them Rom. 6. where baptisme is in deede remembred but holie water I trowe is not there O then it is 1. Tim 4. where Saint Paule was to blame saith Bristowe to tell vs that the creatures of God are sanctified by the worde of God and by prayer Wonderfull Diuinitie that can bring Popish holie water to so holie a beginning No maruell if we be blinde which thinke the Apostle speaketh there of the lawfull vse of meates forbidden by the Pope and of all other of Gods creatures being sanctified by the worde of God which giue vs the vse so by praier that we may vse them well But specially saith Bristowe he was to blame for saying The holy Ghost doth helpe our weaknesse praying for vs with groanes vnspeakeable how so euer blinde heretikes thinke he will doe nothing by water for praier In deede when the scriptures be so plaine for holie water it is wonder that any be so blinde they can see it Of the Ossenes I saide they tooke their hallowing of water salt oyle breade c. and vse to sweare by them Bristow asketh if I be an Anabaptist that will condemne all swearing or swearing by creatures I aunswere I will not condemne all swearing but this customable swearing of Papistes by this bread by this salt c. and as for swearing by creatures I am of the same iudgement that our Sauior Christ is Matth. 5. 34. But Papistes sweare not by them as the Ossenes did what then the controuersie is not therein but of their resemblance with the Ossenes in some part Elxai the father of the Ossenes taught his scholers a praier in a straunge tongue whose interpretation they might not seeke whome the Papistes followe in teaching the people to pray in a tongue vnknowne and will not if they may chose let them knowe the interpretation Bristowe aunswereth that Epiphanius saith his praier was nothing at all when it was interpreted Is it like Epiphanius would say so Howe could it be interpreted if it had no signification Epiphanius in deed sheweth it was a vaine thing whereof he made so great a mysterie and your ignorant people of the great mysteries of the Lordes prayer the Salutation and the creede make vaine and ridiculous matters while they can scarce pronounce their wordes together truly The Marcosians in baptisme vsed for greater admiration certaine Hebrewe wordes so doe the papistes Bristowe asketh whie S.
Marke in his greeke writing vseth that word Eppheta I answere more liuely to expresse the miracle of Christ yet doth he it not without interpretation Likewise Saint Iohn in his Apocalipse vseth Amen and Alleluia wordes whose signification was as commonly knowne to all Christians as their owne mother language What is this to iustifie the vse of that word in baptisme which neither Marke nor Iohn speake of But it was vsed in the time of Ambrose So were other needlesse matters yet was it vsed to them that vnderstoode the whole office or seruice of baptisme in latine Augustine saith it was not lawfull for any Barbarian or Latine man to translate the words Amen Alleluia which al nations do singe in the Psalmes into his owne language For thus he coteth De doct Chri. lib. 2. cap. 11. inter Epist. 174. but in neither of theÌ„ do I finde any such matter Certaine it is that Augustine doth giue the signification of them both in latine Of the Marcionistes I said they learned to giue womeÌ„ leaue to baptise Bristow saith we doe our selues therein by order of our booke as much as they doe but he is deceiued there is no permissioÌ„ in the booke for women to baptise Touching the necessitie of baptisme we haue spoken before cap. 6. Finallie I saide the Papistes are Pelagians for holding free will and merites of workes as they did not predessination and grace as S. Augustine did Bristow citeth Hierom. Cont. Pela saying that it was the heresie of the Manichees to take away free will So it was in deede to affirme that the wil of man was inforced or constreined But that the will of man is free from the thraldome of sinne and hath power to merite without grace or with grace more easily it was the heresie of the Pelagians as Augustine in whole bookes written against theÌ„ doth declare But August Epist. 46. saith That by the grace of God a wicked man may be made a iust one and so may begin to haue good merites which God shal crown wheÌ„ the world shal be iudged I answere by merites he meaneth workes and not desertes for else how saith he elsewhere in Ps. 101. diuers places beside that God crowneth his giftes and not our merites where he vseth the name of merites for desertes where I saide the papistes colour Pelagianisme with their distinctioÌ„ De congruo condigno Bristow saith we do like hypocrites conceale before the people the distinction of merites before grace and after grace for they hold that a man cannot merite the grace of God De congruo without Gods healpe although they haue no resolute warrant to call the contrarie Pelagianisme or heresie And why haue you no warant for reare you should condeÌ„ne diuers of your cheife pillers the scholemeÌ„ for heretikes which hold contrary to that you hold and yet you all hold that a man may dispose him selfe vnto a certaine aptnes to receiue the grace of God by the power of his free will Where I said God is as much bound to congruitie as to condignitie Bristow saith I immagine that if God do not that which is coÌ„gruous he doth against coÌ„gruitie Now good sir saith he It is coÌ„grue to his mercie to saue the simple that are out of the Church which is not coÌ„gruus to his iustice But good sir I pray you dispute not so of congruine that you oppose Gods mercie to his iustice there is nothing congrue to hismercie which is not coÌ„grue to his iustice for vnto whoÌ„soeuer he wil shew mercie he hath receiued for them satisfaction to his iustice in the person of Christ yet Bristow hath another example for condignitie For God to saue al the world it is condigne to the merites of Christ yet he damneth innumerable because it is condigne to their owne merites By this it may be inferred that God yeeldeth not to the merites of Christ so much as they deserue because the merites of many men doe hinder as though the merites of al men do not deserue daÌ„nation of coÌ„dignitie then what cause is this why God giueth not to Christs merites so much as they are worthie to receiue because many deserue damnation This foolish sophistrie riseth by reasoning from possibilitie of Christes worthynesse to the acte of mens worthynesse But compare acte with acte and God saueth all his elect for the worthynesse of the merites of Christ by his mercie and damneth all the reprobate for the worthinesse of their sinne by his iustice of predestination denied by the papistes as it is defended by S. Augustine Bristow speaketh neuer a word In the 39. demaund which he calleth Inconfessed heretikes onely where I answering to the question of Allen Pur 421. 422. with an other question or demaunde why it was reueiled first to the Arrians in councell that the article of Christes descent into hell was meete to be added to the Creede which was not in anie symbole before Bristowe first surmising as his manner is that which was neuer thought of at last confesseth this article to be added in an Arrian Creede Theodor. Lib 2. cap. 21 affirming that it was before that in the Apostles Creede but thereof he bringeth no proofe nor witnesse The iudgement of the scriptures and not of mens opinions argueth heresies Let the writinges of the Apostles trie whether of vs is departed from the doctrine of the Apostles In the 40. demaunde which he termeth They neuer afore now Where I saide we agree with the most ancient fathers in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith Bristowe saith I confesse his purpose For Vigilantius Iouinianus c. did much more agree with them in such articles yet were not of their church could not be and would not be How proue you that Vigilantius was not of the Church or woulde not be although he dissented from Hierom As for Iouinian although we hold no part of his assertion in manner as he helde yet his error was not so great that he might not be saued with it Fewe of those fathers but had as great errors as that It seemeth you would haue no man to be of the ancient Church except he agree with the ancient fathers in al their errors if it be proued out of the holy scripture that Hierom erred in that wherein he dissented from Vigilantius why is heto be allowed in that error more then in other thinges wherein he and other of those antient fathers erred Where I doubt whether Apostolici in S. Bernardâ— time were slaundered Bristow saith it is a poore and fowle shifte because Bernard himselfe is witnes against them as though it were not possible that Bernard might be deceiued by missâ—information of them that enuied such kinde of men as they were Where I say it is certaine that Panperes de Lugduno were slaundered Bristow saith I proue it not They proue it themselues being now and long since openly knowne to haue continued in their vnitie from the time of
in the tables and at the celebration of the Lordes supper before canonization was thought to pertaine onely to the Pope As for our abrogating of Saintes dayes doth not disproue our Communion with the Saintes which is in consent of their faith not in celebrating of their feastes Concerning the canonization of King Henrie the sixt Bristowe requireth mine authour for a dilatorie plea because he can not otherwise defend the Popish corruption Mine authour is Edward Hall in his Chronicles of Henrie the seuenth where I said we acknowledge those to be Saintes whose names are written in the booke of life Bristowe like a blacke dogge scoffeth at it and saith we might doe well to set out that booke in print that they might correct their Calender by it Or else the Churches declaration is the most certaine way to knowe who are written in it If none should be written but such as the Pope doth canonize for that is your Churches declaration innumerable Papistes should haue no place therein and not onely Papistes but the true Saintes of God of whome not one among tenne thousand hath bene canonized Where I say the Popish Church doth iniurie to the Saintes of God that she doth not so account them while they liue Bristowe saith I would be called Saint Fulke by mine owne industrie and that out of hande Thus hath he nothing but Heathenish scornes to delude the textes of Scripture which I cited to proue that the Church of GOD counteth all true Christians Saintes euen in this life not by their owne industrie and merites but by the sanctification of the bloud of Christ. He is angrie that I compare the Popes canonizations with the Heathen Senates canonizing of their Goddes saying wee doe the like in canonizing our selues because wee account our selues Saintes and true Christians which is all one and because I shewe the emulation of the Bohemians in solemnizing the memories of Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prage which differeth as much from Popish canonization as their faith and religion differeth from Poperie In the 47. Demand of cōmunion of Saints he boasteth of increase of Papists in England affirming that beside thē which are Catholike in heart and of their communion there be innumerable of them reconciled which he saith to prepare the minds of his friendes vnto their intended massacre and rebellion I suppose in deede there are too many of those dissembling and professed traitors but yet not so many but they may be numbred But howe many so euer they are I doubt not but there are Christians of such number and power in England as are able to giue all the Papistes both on this side the sea and beyond it as blacke a day as the Popes armie found in Ireland if euer they attempt to put in practise their long intended and certainly purposed treasonable deuises In the 48. Demaund where I shewe the fruites of the Gospell being vrged thereto by Allen Pur. 241. to appeare notably in the liberall prouision for the poore of all sorts in England and namely in the citie of London Bristowe calleth it beastly impudencie yet is he not able to name any Popish citie that maketh such prouision but falleth into open railing vpon the corrupt manners of all the citie as though for the fault of many which yet Gods name be praised are not the most the whole citie were not inferior to Sodome and Gomorrhe in wickednesse In which place as being very populous there are many offenders so are they punished if their offences may be knowne But who so knewe London in the time of Poperie and nowe also considereth the manners of the multitude must be a very vnequall iudge if he acknowledge not great reformation in a great number though he can not see it all As for the citie of Rome which Bristowe compareth with Solomon whose Priestes were more excellēt than the report that went of him as by the storie and relation of them which knewe it before this time so by report of some which euen in this time haue visited the same we haue sufficient vnderstanding that without great reformation it still continueth the mother of all abhominations of the earth and reaching forth the cup of poisoned wine vnto such as seeke her whorish familiaritie maketh them therewith so drunke that there is no cause why Bristowe should maruell why nothing confirmeth more our countrimen in Poperie nor alienateth them from the Protestants than to goe and see Rome The eleuenth Chapter What grosse contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against him self while he struggleth against Gods Church and the doctrine thereof As in his whole replie he hath drawen almost all the arguments and authorities which I vsed in those two treatises vnto other endes and purposes than for which I brought them so to make a shewe of Contradiction he rendeth a number of my sayings from their proper places compareth them together to make such as know not what a Contradiction meaneth to thinke that I affirme and denie meere repugnancies without any possibilitie to reconcile them But when they are considered according to the circumstance of the place in which they are written I hope there are not many of so meane iudgement but they will acknowledge they are rather the cauils of Bristowe than the contradictions of Fulke The first Contradiction he noteth that I say Art 96. You are neuer able to aunswere the arguments that Peter was neuer at Rome And thē where is the Apostolike see c. And thē on the conirarie side the Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles it was an Apostolike Church For this he quoteth Purg. 361. 363. 374. To this I aunswere In the first part he falsifieth my wordes which are these You are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishop at Rome and then where is all your bragges of Apostolike see and succession c. The Church of Rome might bee an Apostolike see though Peter was neuer there but all your bragges of Apostolike see and succession are vaine if Peter was neuer Bishop of Rome The second Those auncient Fathers did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies and among the Catholike Churches especially named the Church of Rome because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles Pur. 373. 374. Contrat And by the way note here the bragge of the Romane faith Pur. 405. The former proposition is not mine but patched by him yet if I graunt the sense and wordes to be as he hath forged them they are not contradictorie to the latter proposition For heretikes may bragge of that which Catholikes vse to doe and yet not be Catholikes The thirde It had by succession speaking of the Church of R 〈…〉 retained euen vntill their dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Pur. 374. Contra She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly succession of Bishoppes except so many schismes
most places and persons alwaies 27 Christes church is nowe by GOD enlarged further than the Popish church Ar. 12. 3. 69. Contra It is but a small flocke in comparison of the malignant church of Antichrist whose number is as the sand of the sea Apoc. 20. The Popish Church is not so large as the malignant Church of Sathan by many partes which containeth all the wicked of the world the name of Antichrist is added by Bristow Yet are there more Antichristes than the Pope although he be the chiefe that sitteth in the temple of God 28 It is a good argument that the Popish church is not the church of Christ because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name the notable persons in all ages in their gouernement and ministerie and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers And it were a token that our church were not the true church if wee could name such notable persons in their gouernement and ministerie Ar. 27. Contra Such officers as are necessarie for the conseruation of Gods people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Christe our Church hath neuer lacked notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time because our Church had not so many Registers Chroniclers and remembrauncers the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs. For the authoritie of the Bible we haue the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Our congregation hath euer had possession of the Scriptures GOD hath neuer suffered the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse of the Scripture Which the Popish Church hath so kept in an vnknowne tongue that the people could haue no vse much lesse the necessarie vse thereof The Church of GOD hath alwayes had Schooles and Vniuersities for the maintenance of godly learning The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions It was neuer so secrete nor hidden but it might be knowne of all those that had eyes to see it That a thousand yeares there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers The Church hath neuer bene afraide to doe her office towardes her children and true members in teaching exhorting comforting confirming c. Ar. 28. 27. 9. 6. 5. 52. 11. 74. 75. 26. 82. In these large propositions howesoeuer they be patched I see no contradiction Except these be contraditories The Church was sometime hidden from her enemies and yet where shee was gathered did performe all duties to her friendes and children It was not seene of the blinde but it was seene of them that had eies 29 The Popish Church was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp Ar. 27. Contra The Church of Rome hath not alwayes practised open preaching and neuer preached the worde of trueth Ar. 85. There was small preaching before the orders of begging friers began to supply the want of the pastors And yet the popish Church glistered in her whorish pompe 30 Touching the text Matthewe 5. of a citie built vpon an hill which can not be hidden after he hath giuen his sense of it he saith Hereby it appeareth howe fondly some Papistes and some of the Doctors in their errour doe expound this place to groue that the Church must alwayes bee visible Ar. 100. Contra euen in his owne exposition there It is properly meant of the Apostles and their suâ—â—essours the Ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue all other men to looke diligently to their life and conuersation for as they excell in place and dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they being placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a thousand yeares So he saith The whole Church which is the mysticall body of Christe is inuisible Although the ministers of the Church and their conuersation can not be hidden from the members of euery particular Church 31 The true Church decaied immediatly after the Apostles time And so the errour of praying for the dead was continued from a corrupt state of the church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ. Againe Anno 607. The church fled into the wildernesse there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwaies preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light nowe in our daies The true church shall neuer decay but alway reigne with Christ. The false synagogue shall ' daily more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroied with Antichrist the head thereof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible church which did decay yea and plainely depart away into Apostasie The places shew that decaying hath double vnderstanding The true Church soone after the Apostles decayed in syncerity yet neuer decayed nor shall decay in continuance Luther gaue no Church but euen that Church which is best lightened by his preaching may decay in sincerity if the pastors be not diligent to teach the word of God simply 32 At euery word hee calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant church Contra in some places he maketh two distinct heades and their distinct companies As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the West seduced the world then the church fled into the wildernesse Againe The Popish church is not in euery part of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest part Ar. 16. 65. I call the Pope Antichrist oftentimes but that I call the Pope head of the malignant Church though Bristowe saith I doe it at euery word yet he is not able to note one place where I doe it rather Bristowe maketh a flat contradiction in saying of me At euery word he calleth the Pope the head of the malignant church Contra In some places he maketh two distinct heades and their distinct companies 33 That the true church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuiledge it hath by Gods spirit we heard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Neither hath the spirit of God failed to leade her into all trueth There be some prerogatiâ—es of Gods spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c. And these the spouse of Christe hath neuer wanted True faith c. might be signes of the true church The spouse
Caluine c. Because I knowe not how Illyricus and such contentious persons as he expoundeth the annointing in Saint Iames but referre them to aunswere for them selues therefore I speake contrary to my selfe where I say they differ not in faith from the Lutherans 41 There is neuer heresie but there is as great doubt of the church as of the matter in question Therefore only the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Ar. 86. Contra The Church is the â—ay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it would serue you both for a sword and a bucklar The church saith it and we are the church Therefore it is true Pur. 367. It seemeth Bristowe is beside himselfe in coyning of contradictions These words The Church is the stay of truth for which he quoteth Pur. 367. are not mine in that place but his owne addition although in other sense I confesse the Church is the stay and piller of truth not that all is true which is alwaies in the Church but that truth can not be preserued on earth by the Church 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth against the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is that their heresie was contrarie to the publique praiers of the church Contra All other persuasions set aside hee prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trie the faith and doctrine of the church namely in beating downe the schisme of the Donaistes and the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason whie he argued against the Donatistes of only Scripture but against the Pelagians of the churches praiers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the church that so praied And therefore when Augustine had to doe with the Donatistes that challenged the church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures Let the readers iudge for I can not imagine where there be should be so much as the shadowe of a contradiction gathered out of these wordes except he meane that he which prouoketh onely to the scriptures may not vse an hundreth argumentes out of them yea or many persuasions beside the scriptures and yet stand onely vpon the auctority of the scriptures 43 We stand for autoritie only to the iudgemeÌ„t of the holy scriptures Pu. 432. Contra The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assuraÌ„ce of Gods spirit for the autoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true church in alages The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of God from the writings of men The primitiue churches testimonie of the word of God we allow and beleeue You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing wel prouide for the credit of your cause the discredit of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure church for the space of a hundreth yeares after Christe or something out of any Authenticall writer which liued within one hundred yeares after the Apostles age Ar. 9. 5. 10. Pur. 364. 331. Ar. 21. 39. 42. The first proposition as in the place quoted is manifest is spoken of questions of doctrine and not of our persuasion of the scriptures to be the word of God The last sentence You should bring c. being patched out of two places of my booke Pur. 364. and 331. are not contradictory to the first proposition for although we stand for auctority onely to iudgement of the holy scriptures yet we are content to giue you this aduantage against vs if you can bring any thing out of those eldest writers for Purgatory or prayer for the dead 44 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 11. declareth without colour or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the next line I knowe the Papistes will flee to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelinesse and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pur. 362. In rehearsing my wordes he leaueth out fiue lines of my saying betwene the words Couerture and The onely right c. which declare that I speake of the essâ—ntiall order of ministration against Allen which affirmeth oblation of the hoast for the quicke and the dead both generally and particularly and a solemne prayer for all departed in Christ to be necessary parts of the order of ministration of that Sacrament 45 The olde Doctors neuer heard Purgatorie named nor praier for the deade Pur. 438. Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented And long afore that also Montanus had in all points the opinioÌ„ of the Papists c. Here cap 3 pag 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blinde error without a head Pur. 356. My wordes are of the heresie of Purgatory and my meaning of those olde Doctors in comparison of whom Saint Augustine is but a punie being younger almost by 300. yeares in whose time although the name of Purgatory were inueâ—ted yet the heresie was elder in Montanus How prayer for the deade came into the Church it was vncertaine in Chrysostomes time and therefore I say it was a blinde error without a heade 46 In Saint Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Pur. 54. Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time Pur. 161. And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14 saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of praiers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundationlong afore Christes time It were a strange contradiction that could bee picked out of these two allegories laying the foundation and rifely budding seeing the foundation is the beginning of a building and budding is the first towardnesse of fruite As for the pedigree is not to the last generation as Bristow saith layed in Saint Augustines time but from the first auctor howe it was continued vnto Saint Augustines time since which there haue beene many dissents before popish Purgatory were throughly shaped and brought forth 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God exceedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 242. 243. Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men giue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne than that almes which other men giue for them howbeit also such almes are auaileable for the dead he saith Pur. 236. 237. That which Chrysostome speaketh of litle helpe wil not serue Allen to proue that almes shall moue GOD exceedingly to mercy 48 The auncient Doctors did holde the foundation Contra cap. 4 pag. 28. He
altar alludeth to the sacrifices of thankesgiuing in the lawe because he vseth also the name of Leuites by which he calleth Gods ministers Let Bristowe nowe goe and say that Leuites also offered sacrifice propitiatoriâ— in the lawe The second flower of mine ignorance is where to deface the sacrifice of Iudas Macha 〈…〉 aeus I say that both the high Priest at that time was a wicked and vngodly man to wit either Iason Menelaus or Alcimus and namely Menelaus the worst of them all three and also that the other Priestes of that time were giuen to the practises of the Gentiles 2. Machab. 4. In so much that it is like that Iudas Machabaeus if hee deuised not the sacrifice of his owne heade yet tooke by imitation of the Gentiles Frst hee maruelleth howe I could thinke that Machabaeus had any commnion with the Gentilizers against whom all his fighting was seeing it is written first of Macab 4 that he chose priestes without spot hauing their heart in the lawe of God I aunswere being such as they were described 2. Machab. 4. hee had hard choise to finde a sufficient number of vnspotted priestes But although he were an enimy of gentility in that corrupt time and state he might be drawen into imitation of the gentiles in some point that had a shewe of pietie although it were not agreeable to the lawe of God His next accusation is that I call them high priestes which were but antipontifices and vsurpers I aunswere I iustifie not their title more then their maners and religion but whereas by his greekelatine word he supposeth that there were other true high priestes in their time he bewraieth his owne grosse ignorance For whereas he saith that the succession of the true high priestes for that time was this Onias Mathathias Iudas Ionathas Simon The truth is that Mathathias and Iudas were neuer high priestes neither doth the Story 1. Macc. 2. or 1. Macc. 3 which he quoteth shewe any thing to proue that they were It sayeth that Mathathias was a priest but not that he was the high priest And Iosephus who did write an history of the Maccabees testifieth plainly that from Iacimus to Ionathan for 7. yeares there was no high priest which Ionathan was made high priest in the yeare 160. Ioseph Antiqu. Lib. 20. Cap. 8. 1. Maccab. Cap. 10. verse 21. which was many yeares after Iudas his brother was slaine Therefore at such time as Iudas should send the offering to Hierusalem there was no such good Bishop as Allen saith but euen Onias cognomento Menelaus as Iosephus calleth him which was depriued both of his life and of his high priesthood at Berytus or as the corrupt story of the Machabes saith at Berea 2. Macc. 13. called in the first of the Machabees Bethzetha But whereas Bristow maketh Ionathas or Simon chiefe priestes in the absence of Iudas and not Menelaus he forgetteth that in those expeditions which Iudas made from Hierusalem for which he quoteth 1. Macc. 4. 5. it is plaine in the same chapter that Simon was sent with an hoast into Galilee and Ionathan went with his brother Iudas ouer Iordane into Gilead which story how he wil reconcile with the 2. Mac 12. either for time or persons I haue great meruaile But that Menelaus as he was then in office of the high priest though vnworthy so that he was at Hierusalem it appeareth by this record of the time The Temple was purged as Bristowe confesseth and it is written 1. Macc. 4. Anno 148. in the 25. of the Moneth Cislewe and in the same yeare Antiochus Eupator by letters sent to Lysias commandeth that the Temple should be restored to the Iewes whereof Lysias writeth to the Iewes the 24. of the moneth of Iupiter Corinthus and king Antiochus himselfe with letters bearing date the 15. of the moneth Panticus sendeth Menelaus to comfort the Iewes 5. Mac. 11. And the next yeare after Anno 149. Antiochus came into Iewrie and did execution vpon Menelaus and made warre vpon Iudas c. 2. Macc. 13. and ordained Iacimus high priest which continued in that place 3. yeares Iosep. Antiqu. Lib. 20. cap. 8. If that this account of the second booke of Maccabees agree not with the story of the first booke as in deede it doth not let Bristowe looke â—â—to it that defendeth these bookes to be Canonicall it is sufficient for me to iustifie that I cited out of this latter booke by the report of the same booke and by Iosephus who knewe the succession of the high Priestes of his nation better than Bristowe whose arrogant ignorance is so much the more odious that hee would charge me with ouersight in that hee is most ignorant him selfe and that against his Maister Allen who supposeth some other to be high Priest or Bishop and not Iudas him selfe The third chapter of my grosse or rather malicious ignorance is saide to be about Antichrist As that the Church of Christ should prepare his way or worke his mysterie But this is a fable of Bristowe neuer affirmed by me As for the other assertions of the time of his reuelation of the Churches fleeing into the wildernesse of the time of Antichristes reigne c. because they are condemned by the onely authoritie of Bristowe without any argument or testimonie of Scripture or Fathers I will referre the reader to such places where I affirme any of them to consider my reasons and to iudge indifferently The fourth point is that the body of Christ is not offered to him selfe but thankesgiuing is offered to him for the offering of his body for vs. Pur. 316. Against this his reasons are these Why sir did not he vpon the crosse offer his owne body as a Man and a Priest to him selfe as to God Sir the Scripture telleth me that Christ being an high Priest by his eternall spirite offered him selfe vnreproueable to GOD Hebr. 9. verse 14. Ergo you will say to him selfe as God because the persons of the godhead are vndiuided Yet I trust you will distinguish the humanitie from the deitie so Christ offered not his body to him selfe that is neither to his humanitie nor to the person of the mediatour which is God and man For though God was made man yet God the Father was not made man nor God the holy Ghost but God the Sonne onely And although it were graunted that Christ offering him selfe to God was offered to him selfe yet it followeth not that men of whome I spake can offer the body of Christ yea whole Christ to him selfe then the which nothing is more absurd An other reason Bristow bringeth that I noted others for saying it is not lawful to pray to God the sonne As though it were al one to pray to Christ to offer his body to Christ him self to him self The fift That I call it a vaine amplification and fond suppositioÌ„ to extend the force of Christes death beyond the limits of his will My words are of
bin dāned for euer c. Which he saith also shal be my reply But when Bristow saith that Christs bodily death without any suffering of his soule was the full redemption of the world he maketh his tormentes of minde whereof he complaineth that his soule was heauie vnto death which made him to sweate bloode before his body was touched to be of no force except it were to argue great imbecillitie of Christ who feared so much bodylie death that many of his seruantes haue ioyfully imbraced and that strange crie and teares with which he vttered his prayers on the crosse and that most lamentable complaint that God had forsaken him were for nothing but for that he was not deliuered from the crosse as Bristow writeth it is too much iniurious to his most bitter passion to imagine and therefore we must needes acknowledge that he suffered more in the sight of God whose iustice he was to satisfie then he suffered in the sight of men And so the question that Bristow propoundeth to me is answered why descendit ad inferos cometh after sepultus because the order of the Symbole is first to shew what suffered before men and then what hesuffered in the sight of God As for the blasphemy of Theodorus Mopseuestenus that Christ had inclination to sinne c. there is no more reason why Bristowe should charge vs with it then with those other blasphemies that Christ did dispaire in God or blaspheme God or commit some other sinne against God for our redemption which he affirmeth to be maintained of some Caluinistes For which detestable slaunder if he haue no better ground then he sheweth let him remember that the mouth which lyeth killeth the soule I wil spare to amplifie though I lack no matter albeit that Bristow fayneth mōsters of slaūders as Iupiters Giantes then casteth thē downe with thūderbolts deriding myknowledge in amplification The 9. is about the honor of the virgin Marie wherein first he chargeth me with the heresie of the Heluidians Antidicomarianites who were condemned for heretikes for denying her perpetual virginitie whereas he cometh neerer to the Colliridians likewise cōdemned thē we to the Heluidians But let vs see his impudent quarels First I say As for the perpetuall virginitie of the mother of Christ as we thinke it is true so because the scripture hath not reueiled it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it Here is a great cōiunctiō with heretikes which trobled the Church with contention a bout a matter which they were not able to proue by the scriptures yet saith Bristow you forge a principle of onely scripture in their fauour Surely that principle as it is not forged so it fauoreth them nothing at al. For their contentious assertion they were not able to proue by the scriptures but within 4. lines afore I am contrary to my selfe where I say all truth may be proued by the scripture If I had to doe with a man of reason as I haue to do with a papist he would vnderstand my propositiō according to the whole matter in controuersie of such things as are necessarie or profitable for a christian man to know vnto saluatiō For otherwise I thinke many things to be true that are not conteined in the scriptures As I thinke that Bristow lacketh wit learning honesty thus to quarell which is not written in the scriptures but gathered by other reasons yet he saith I might which more honestie haue saide that it may be proued by scripture where she saith Luk. 1. Because I know no man that is saith he because I haue made a vow of virginitie A like matter that she would marie if she had made a vow of viginitie Yet Bristow cōfesseth this place proueth not inuincibly her perpetuall virginitie although it so proue her vow But if Bristow were condēned or had vowed to lie in prison vntil he could frame an inuincible argument to proue her vow out of that place yea or any other place of the scriptures it were all one as if he were condemned to perpetuall prison or vowed the same Another poynt of that dishonor is where I controld Allen for excepting the mother of Christ when he speaketh of sinners which is all one as if he had said Christ was not a sauiour of his mother or that she had no neede of his saluation And here he chargeth me with reading Caluine more then Augustine as though Augustine defended the virgin Marie to be free from sinne because he saith against the Pelagians that he would haue no question of her for the honour of our Lord when he speaketh of sinnes For hereof we know that more grace was giuen to her to ouercome sinne of all partes which was worthy to conceiue and bring forth him 〈…〉 om it is certaine that he had no sin Denat grat 136. It is all one with Bristow to ouercome sinne to be voyde of all sinne What victorie is there without a battel if the flesh in the virgin Marie did not rebel against the spirite what victorie had she by grace But it is plaine Pelagianisme to hold that she was voyde of sinne or perfectly righteous The Pelagian nameth also ipsam etians domini c. the verie mother of our Lord and Sauiour which he saith it is necessarie for godlines that we confesse that she was with out sinne But thereof Augustine for the honour of our Lord will haue no question signifying that although she were not cleere and exempted from fi 〈…〉 e but had grace to ouercome sinne yet for reuerence of Christ her sonne he would not reason thereof to bring her within the cōmon cōpasse of al siners But Bristow perceiueth that I would not haue so answered seeing I affirme that by the reprehension of Christ Iohn 2. she did offend for he would neuer haue reproued his mother without a cause And said what haue I to do with thee woman except she had intermedled in his office more then of dutie she ought But Bristow would colour his reproofe two wayes one by false translation of the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what to me and thee O woman not vnderstanding the greek phrase which is by those words to refuse to haue to doe with one As the diuels Matt. 8. cried 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 What haue we to do with thee Iesus thou sonne of God and not as Bristowe translateth What to vs and thee Iesus c. But because Bristow saith that if Christ should meane that the want of wine perteined neither to him nor to his mother yet she were not discharged of error to moue him in a matter which belongeth neither to him nor her He sayth I might doe well to tell him what were those sinnes of hers I thinke the answere of Christ sheweth what her offence was here and Luk. 5. that she presumed to intermeddle vnder colour of her motherly authoritie with matter apperteining to his diuine office of being Christ
the mediator with which she had nothing to doe as a mother but was esteemed of him as a woman who knew when it was conuenient for him to doe whatsoeuer were for the glorie of Gods kingdome to be done without her or any other bodies admonition Neither doe I charge her as Chrysostom in Ioann Hom. 20. Optabat enim c. For she wished that he might now winne the fauor of men and that she might be made more noble by the fauour of her sonne And perchance she was moued with some humane affection euen as his brethren when they saide shew thy selfe to the world being desirous by his miracles to winne themselues a fame Therefore he answered more sharpely what haue I to doe with thee woman my houre is not yet come For that he did reuerence his mother Luke doth testifie that he was subiect to his parentes and this Euangelist doth shew how great care he had of his mother in the time of his passion For where his parentes did nothing hinder the mysteries of GOD did offend nothing it was meete and necessarie for the sonne to be obedient neither could he deny obedience without greate perill Contrarywise when they desire an vnseasonable thing and that which would haue beene an hinderance to spirituall thinges Who is my mother and my brethren quoth he For as yet they had not such opinion of him as they ought but Marie after the manner of mothers thought she should haue commanded her sonne in all thinges by her authoritie c. But the councell of Trent saith Bristow sheweth that she had more neede of Christes grace then all other saints to preserue her from sinne But in the meane time she had no neede of his redemption for the remission of sinne who was appoynted to saue his people from their sinnes who came to seeke and to saue that which was lost both of the house of Israel and of the Gentiles so many as attained saluatiō So therefore howsoeuer Bristow scorneth at my diuinity I will still conclude that the virgin Mary beeing so principal a persō of Christs people was saued from her sinnes by the redemption of his bloode was lost but sought vp and saued by him Which diuinitie being taken out of the scriptures I trust is more commendable then the contrarie doctrine deriued from the Pelagians and defended by the Papistes The 10. poynt of mine ignorance is about the definition of an heretike whom I saide to be a man in the Church I haue shewed before that I distinguish betweene him that is in the Church and him that is of the Church a Papiste an Anabaptist may be in the Church but they cannot be of the Church except they repent Where I added vnto my definitiō that if any of vs can be proued obstinately to mainteine our opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the scriptures we refuse not to be counted heretikes Bristow saith they may say the like But the triall is all Bristow saith they bring plaine scriptures to proue that all the doctrine of the Apostles traditions is the doctrine of the scriptures And we say the same that whatsoeuer the Apostles deliuered in speech they deliuered also in writing and neither contrarie to other But that all true doctrine necessarie to saluation is not conteined in the scriptures that you proue not neither that such things were of the Apostles deliuerie as you call traditions of the Apostles As for the particular poyntes you prate of concerning the time of the Churches persecution and Antichristes raigne haue beene answered in their proper places The wordes of Christ This is my body we acknowledge to be true in such sense as he spake them neither can you prooue that they importe your carnall Carpernaiticall presence what you hold of Iustification by workes Worshipping of Images Insufficiencie of Christes redemption Impeccabilitie of Marie c. contrarie to the expresse and plaine textes of the scripture it were out of place here o make rehersall The 11. is mine ignorance in wondring at Allen for saying that a christian scholer should first beleeue and after seeke for vnderstāding he hath noted cap 10. Dem. 34. and there haue I answered The 12. poynt proceedeth of like ignorance where I am said to wonder when I heare that the sacrifice of the masse is a likenesse of the sacrifice of Christs death vpon the crosse And then I am asked whether I know not that sacramentes are not likenesses of other thinges and Augustine is called to witnesse with much adoe as though it is all one to haue sacramentes which are similitudes of Christs death and to haue a sacrifice of similitude or likenesse which I saide truly was contrary to the whole scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come which I spake supposing that Allen by likenes of the exemplar meaneth the masse with all the apish pageants thereof to be like the sacrifice of Christes death And indeede it was that monstruous saying of Allen which I wondered at By likenesse of the exemplar as indeede being in an other maner the verie selfe-same But Bristow setting a good countenance vpon so great an absurditie asketh what boy hath not hearde it saide of one the same man being changed by age sicknesse apparel shauing c. he is like or vnlike himselfe But tontrariewise what boy in Oxford or Cambridge would not reply that this similitude or likenesse or vnlikenesse is of two seuerall shapes and not of one and the same substance vnto it selfe as Allen saith the sacrament is like the body of Christ and is the very same in another maner that is vnder couerture of accidentes that belong to another kinde of substance But Bristowe is not so quicke to vnderstand me where I vnderstand not my selfe as he weeneth where I say neither will it helpe that Allen saith it is the selfesame in another manner so longe as the same respect remaineth I am sorie that Bristowe is so dull headed that he cannot vnderstand what the same respecte meaneth in opposition which if it not obserued in the thinges opposed they are not alwayes opposite and specially relatiues who hange altogether vpon respect But Bristowe asketh who can imagine that the verie same respecte remaineth when the same manner doth not remaine Why sir what is the respect of the likenesse of the sacrifice of the masse with the exemplar seeing you confesse the manner tobe vnlike but the verie identitie of the thing sacrificed which is the monster that I maruaile at as also that you cannot imagine the same respect where there is not the same manner Is not God the father of our Lord Christ in the same respect that Abraham is the father of Isaak but yet after a farre other manner yea to follow your owne wise examples is not Abraham father of Isaak in the same respecte when Isaak is yonge and when he is olde when he
at the Emperors charges for the encrease of Christian faith among them Bristowe asketh me what Emperor or what faith but Catholike or Popish That which I saide of the Syrian Testament was to shewe that the Churches in Chaldea haue preserued the scriptures which yet are not subiect to the Church of Rome with the Emperors profession I delt not but his purpose I suppose was to encrease Christian faith and I am persuaded the reading of the scriptures in the mother tongue will not encrease Popish faith seeing Papists are so vnwilling that the people should read the worde of God in the natiue language Fourthly that I say the fathers alledging the succession of Bishops against heretikes specially named the Church of Rome because those heretikes for the most part had ben somtimes of the Church of Rome as Valentinus Marciō Nouatus Against this Bristowe telleth me that Allen speaketh also of the Arrians Donatists and al heretikes But I spake of those fathers that alledged the succession of Bishops namely Irenaeus Tertullian and Cyprian Irenaeus testifieth of Valentinus Cerdon and Marcion that they were at Rome vnder Hyginus Pius and Anicetus and that Cerdon came often into the Church and made his confession and yet taught his heresie priuily and was excommunicated For Nouatus that he was a Prieste of the Church of Rome Eusebius is cleare Lib. 6. Cap. 42. But Cyprian calleth him Nouatianus whereas Nouatus had beene of Carthage but from thence was also gone to Rome I deny not but the similitude of the names might cause the Greeke writers to be deceiued as Bristowe saith and it may be that the name of Nouatianus in Cyprian is corrupted for Nouatus and the other called Nouatus in steade of Nauatus which name was then in vse But seeing the person of the heretike is certaine it is folly to striue for his name I haue shewed mine authour for Nouatus 〈◊〉 Rome and so for the rest wherefore I haue not bewraied any ignorance therein as Bristowe pretendeth The 17. and last point of mine ignorance is where I shewe wherein the communion of Saintes consisteth In that I say one can not merit for an other no not for him selfe but euery man hath his worthinesse of Christe As though saith Bristowe neither Christ could merite for any other no nor for him selfe because he had his worthinesse of God But I say that Christ because he was God had his worthinesse of him selfe and therefore did merite for vs. And see what secret blasphemie is contained in this comparison of Bristowe Where he would make a similitude of meriting betweene vs which please not God but onely through his mercy with Christe who satisfied the iustice of God But Bristowe chargeth me so to define the cōmunion of Saints that I allow no place for the praiers of the members aliue made for others that are aliue A vile slander when I speake of the grace and giftes of God which as euery one hath receiued of God so of charitie he is bound to imploy the same to the profite of his fellowe members here on earth But if we be bound of charitie to pray one for an other saith Bristowe whie are not these members in heauen as well Because there is not a lawe appointed for them that are in heauen and them that be in earth we knowe praier is commaunded vs we knowe not any praier commaunded them neither are we to trust to any such thing But the Scripture saith that Christes friendes doe reioice in heauen with his penitents in earth It saith so in deede of the Angels and I doubt not of the like affection of the blessed spirites but of their knowledge and if their knowledge were certaine yet it followeth not that they pray for the conuersion of sinners and much lesse that the mutuall offices of loue whereby one member hath compassion with an other can by any meanes touch the state of the deade to receiue any benefite thereby But an other quarrell is where I make the communion of the whole body to be the participation of life from Christ the head If this be all saith Bristow then there is no communion For what communion were it betweene the members of your naturall body if they did onely receiue life from your head and could not vse the saide life to profite one an other c. This man hath great leasure to trifle without any matter Who so shall reade my wordes Pur. 199. which he quoteth shall finde me to say That the communion of the whole body is the participation of life and all other offices of life that euery member and the whole body hath of the head as S. Paule teacheth plainely Ephes 4. If it be any office of a Christian life for one member to assist an other in that it may and as it ought I haue comprehended it but that Bristowe doth wilfully holde my saying and then play with it at his pleasure Yet he chargeth me with belying of Allen that he will haue other workes waies of saluation besides the bloud of Christ because he groundeth all works and waies of saluation in the bloud of Christ. But I reporting his words truly by plain distribution do gather that Allen will haue other workes and waies of saluation beside the bloud of Christ except you will say that is no way nor worke of saluation of it selfe without these waies and works of men If the bloud of Christ of it selfe be one way and worke of saluation and there be other waies and workes though grounded in it then are there more waies and workes of saluation than the onely redemption of Christe which I vnderstand by the bloud of Christ so I haue done Allen no iniurie but he hath offered hainous iniurie to the bloud of Christe and so doe al they which mixed it with any to purchase Gods fauour who is reconciled by none other merite or satisfaction but only by the bloud of the crosse of his Sonne our Lorde Iesus Christe to whome be praise for euer more In the thirtienth chapter or conclusion Bristowe doth only shew that there is in my two bookes stuffe ynough to make an other booke as bigge as this to the discredit of my partie I trust this booke of his as bigge as it is hath wrought no discredite to the cause I maintaine because I haue shewed howe it is stuffed with lies slaunders falsifications and cauillations such stuffe he may haue great store in the diuell his maisters schoole to make a booke tenne times as bigge as this was but for so much as he hath not aunswered any one of mine arguments or refelled any one of mine aunsweres to Allen in any right order leauing the defence of him as he pretendeth to defend the Church I confesse he hath left matter sufficient for any man that will vndertake the confutation of my bookes which this his vnorderly and vnsufficient replie notwithstanding I protest to remaine still in their strength and
the holie Ghost or else he acknowledgeth him present vnder the formes of breade and wine without distinction of persons and with a blasphemous confusion of the substance of the two natures in Christ. For the figure called the Communication of speaches can not helpe him in this case seeing he wil admit no figure but a most proper speach in these wordes This is my bodie Whereas it is euident to all men that are not obstinately blinde that if Christe had purposed to make the sacrament really and essentially all that him selfe is and would haue declared the same in proper speach he would not haue saide This is my bodie and this is my bloud which is but a part of him and the lowest part of him but he would haue saide take eate this is Iesus Christ or this is al that I am But when he saith this is my body this is my bloud which if it be not a figuratiue speach should be a dead bodie and a senselesse bloud he sheweth manifestly that he commendeth not a meta physicall transmutation of the elements into his naturall flesh and bloud but an heauenly and diuine mysterie teaching vs and assuring vs that God the sonne being ioined with vs in the nature of his humanitie which he hath taken vnto him by the spirituall vertue of his body broken and bloud shed for vs on the crosse doth wonderfully feede vs and nourish vs as it were with meate and drinke vnto eternall saluation both of body and soule If any man think that I referre the words of Sander to the Sacrament which he speaketh of the diuinitie of Christ generally let him reade the whole Epistle and comparing it with the title of salutation which I haue set downe in his owne wordes consider whether Sander professing that he speaketh therein to the bodie and blood of Christ vnder the formes of breade and wine can be reasonably vnderstoode of Christ after any other sorte then vnder the formes of breade and wine Wherefore such bolde speaches as he vseth in this dedication tending to so grosse heresie were a declaration of his proude stomake nowe broken foorth into hainous treason against his owne countrie and actuall rebellion against his souereigne and natural Prince But thou O Lord Iesus Christ our onely Sauiour and Redeemer whome we adore and worship as our King and God not vnder the accidentall shapes of breade and wine but aboue all principalities and powers sitting on the throne of magnificence of God thy eternall father in heauen to whom with thee and the holie Ghost we giue al honor praise for euer vouchsafe if it be thy holy wil to conuert these enemies of thy maiestie vnto the true vnderstanding of thy blessed word or if their obstinate resisting of thy spirit so require shewe forth thy glorious might in their speedie ouerthrowe and confusion that we thy humble seruantes beholding thy wonderfull iudgementes may laude and magnifie thy holy name as well in the saluation of thine elect as in the destruction of thine enemies to thine euerlasting praise and renoune for euer and euer Amen The preface to the Christian reader THe proposition of this painted preface is that the scriptures must be expounded according to the greatest auctority that may be founde in that kinde which Sander assumeth to be the vse custome and practise of the Catholike Church This assumption is false although if it were true it helpeth the Papistes nothing at all which can not shewe the practise of the Catholique Church of all times for any error which they maintaine against vs. The greatest auctoritie in expounding of the scriptures is of the holy Ghost whose iudgemenr can not be certainly founde but in the scriptures them selues wherefore conference of the holy scriptures of God is of greater auctority then the practise of men The scriptures inspired of God are able to make vs wise vnto saluation they are sufficient to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. Wherfore the practise and custome of Gods people must be examined by the scriptures and not the scriptures expounded after it Exposition of the scriptures or prophesying must be according to the analogic of faith Rom. 12. But faith is builded vpon the worde of God and not vpon the custome of men therefore exposition of the scriptures must be according to the word of God and not after the vsage of men The example which Sander vseth to confirme his false assumption is of baptising of infants of Christians before they be taught which doctrine he denieth to be proued by the order of Christes wordes Matth. 28. but by the vse and consent of all nations To this I aunswere that the vse and consent of all nations were not sufficient to warrant the baptisme of infants of the faithfull except the same were warranted by the Scriptures in other places As is manifest in the institution of circumcision According to the couenant whereof the Apostle saith that all our fathers were baptized in the clowde and in the sea 1. Cor. 10. and the children of the faithfull are holy therefore to be admitted to baptisme 1. Cor. 7. because they are comprehended in Gods couenant according to which scriptures they are baptized the infants of Iewes or Gentiles refused and not onely vpon the ground of the Churches custome and vse therin as Sander affirmeth which custome is good because it is grounded vpon the Scriptures but the scripture is not authorized by that custome Wherefore popish confirmation and adoration of the bodye of Christ in the sacrament although he falsely affirmeth that they are the like custome of the Catholike Church are Iewde and vngodly practises of the Papistes because they are not warranted by the holy scriptures but are proued contrarie to the same But whereas we alledge the iudgement of the fathers of the Church for sixe hundred yeres after Christ to be against transubstantiation and adoration Sander replyeth that things vncertein must be iudged by things certeine and not contrariwise This principle is true but it is false that the iudgement of the fathers in the first sixe hundred yeres is vncerteine as also that those foure certeinties which he rehearseth be either all certeinties or certeinly on his side The first is the wordes of the scripture This is my body about whose vnderstanding is all the controuersie and therefore no certeintie that they are on their side more then these words are certeine on our side against transubstantiation The breade which we breake c. so often as ye eate of this bread c. The second is false that in the Catholike church all men worshipped the reall bodie of Christe vnder the formes of bread c. for it is the practise onely of the Popish Church and that but of late yeres neuer admitted by the Orientall churches beside many churches and members of Christes Church in the West that euer did abhorre it Thirdly the Councell of Laterane
Gardener others challenge Theodoret Gelasius Againe he sayth The fathers are against the Protestants because they excuse Hilarie Chrysost. Cyrill by the figure of Hyperbole which is a Rhetoricall lye but in deede this argument is a lewde lye of one which knoweth neither Logike nor Rhetorike but like a young smatterer or a sophisticall cauiller For the figure of Hyperbole is not a lye more then any other figure of Rhetorike in the true vnderstanding thereof whereas after wrong vnderstanding euen that which is spoken without all figure is false and vntrue Finally whereas he chargeth vs to denye the workes of the auncient writers Dionysius Ignatius Polycarpus Abdias c. that is a lowde lye shadowed neither with Rhetorike nor reason for we denye not the workes of those fathers but we refuse counterfeit workes falsely ascribed to them which thing if we proue not by manifest demonstration we require no credit As for that which he cauilleth against master Nowel I omitte as being confuted by master Nowel him selfe But where he sayeth the scriptures woulde neuer abide him that should saye This is not my body I answere we neuer say This is not Christes body after any manner but this is not his body after a grosse carnall or naturall maner and that saying the scripture will abide euen as well as this The rocke was not Christ naturally substantially or essentially although the scripture saye The rocke was Christ. Or this Christ was not a vine properly naturally or substantially notwithstanding that he sayeth I am a verie or true vine The prowde bragge which Sander maketh that popish Catholikes lacke no scripture for any of their assertions how true it is let all men iudge seing that for many things they confesse they haue nothing to shewe but tradition vnwritten Likewise how aptly in this controuersie of the supper he hath examined the wordes of Christes supper noted the circumstances of thinges done and saide there conferred the scriptures of both the testaments and ioyned the fathers of the first sixe hundred yeres And yet he fauoureth him selfe so much in his doing that hee boldly affirmeth vs to haue no helpe of those things For scriptures we cannot conferre to make the wordes of the supper plaine because Doing and the words therof are more playne then any other place of scripture concerning it as the passion of Christ is more playne then the lawe and Prophets c. If this were true the Apostles labored in vayne to proue the passion of Christ out of the lawe and the Prophets and the rest of the writings of the Apostles are needlesse and vncertayne instruction if the historye of the passion doth teach all the doctrine that is necessary to be knowen concerning it But it is a clarkly conclusion of Sander That if the words of the supper be figuratiue none other can be playne as though figuratiue speaches cannot be playne when they are vsed for playnesse sake of them that knowe how to vse them And because Sander chargeth vs Tell me masters c I say likewise Tell me masters Are these wordes recorded to be spoken in the institution action of the supper This is the new Testament in my bloud Tell me I say are these the verie words which Christ then spake or the interpretation of them If they be the very words which of you wil say they are not figaratiue If they be the interpretation then are they more cleere plaine then those words which he vttered This is my bloude Now whether the iudgement of the primitiue Church for the first 600. yeares maketh for vs as it hath in many treatises so in this that followeth it shal be shewed sufficiently Last of all it wil appeare both by the scriptures and testimonie of the fathers that the iudgemēt of the externall senses or naturall reason was not the first argument that might moue thē that first departed from antichristianitie to the ancient true vnderstāding of the mysteries of Christ in his supper Of the almightie power of Christ we doubt no more then of his will reueiled in scriptures in which seeing we learne that Christ concerning his humanitie was made like vs in all things except sin and that our bodies after the resurrection shal be made like to his glorious body Heb. 2 ver 17 Phil. 3. 21 which seeing it cannot stand with transubstantiation wee may not reasō of his power so that we should ouerthrow his wil. For he is almightie to do whatsoeuer he will not willing to do whatsoeuer he can But of the whole matter we shal intreate more at large as occasiō is giuen in the bookes following CAP. II. Certaine notes about the vse and translation of holy scripture to be remembred of him that shall read this booke Sander prosessing that he followeth most the vulgar Latine translation and lest the English Bible because it almost neuer translateth any text well whereof any cōtrouersie is in these our dayes taketh in hand to proue many falsifications and wrong translations in the onely matter of the sacrament of Christes bodye and bloud The first is Iohn the 6. ver 27. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Operamini cibum permanentem The true English were worke the meate which carieth The English bible turneth Operamini labor for We labor saith he for that which we seeke and 〈◊〉 not we worke that stuffe which is present with vs. This corruption the Sacramentaries haue vsed because they doe not beleeue the meate which taryeth to be made really present so that we may worke it by faith and bodie This finall cause is falsely alledged for we beleeue the meate that tarieth vnto eternall life to be made really present by faith to them that receiue the sacrament worthily Contrariewise the papistes holde that the same meate is receiued where it taryeth not vnto etetnall life namely in the wicked And concerning the corruption pretended it is false which Sander saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth alwayes to worke that which is present and not to labour or seeke for that which is absent for saint Paul writeth 2. Thessa. 3. ver 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Si quis non vult operar◠If any man will not labour neither let him eate Euery man cannot worke that stuffe which is present as in Sanders example of a Carpenter working a peece of tymber therefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth to labour generally either in seeking that which is absent or in working that which is present Wherefore this is a doltish distinction of doctor Sander and a manifest corruption of the text by leauing out such words as shewe the vanitie of this cauill and ouerthrowe the difference of this distinction For the wordes of Christ are these speaking to the Iewes which sought him being absent not because they sawe his miracles but because they had beene filled with his breade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Labor ye not for the meate which perisheth but for the
by Malachie was he expoundeth out of S. Iohn in the Apocalipse the praiers of the saintes Cap. 35. Also Cap. 34. expounding what is that pure sacrifice foreshewed by Malachie and taught by Christ he saith Oportet enim nos oblationem deo facere in omnibus gratos inueniri fabricatori deo in sententia pura fide sine hypocrisi in spe firma in dilectione feruenti primitias earum quae sunt eius creaturarum offerentes hanc oblationem Ecclesia solapuram offert fabricatori offerens ei cum gratiarum actione ex creatura eius For we must make this oblation to God and in all things be found thankefull to God our maker in a pure mynd and faith without hypocrisie in stedfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruites of those creatures which are his and this pure oblation the Church a lone offereth to her maker offering to him of his owne creature with thanksgiuing Thus writteth Irenaeus of the sacrifice of the Church which cannot stand with the Popish sacrifice of Christes naturall body and bloud And whatsoeuer Gregory Nyss. Chrysostome or Ambrose write of changing the bread consecrating of the things set forth working of Christes words hath none other meaning but of the spirituall changing consecrating and working of God in the worthy receiuers of this sacrament as in more proper places shall be shewed out of euery one of them The next argument to prooue that Christe spake to the bread is of the custom of the East Church in which the people answered Amen when the words of consecration were pronounced alowde which he proueth out of Ambrose The same appeareth in Augustine sermone ad insants which proueth that it was the custome of the Latine Church in those daies to pronounce the words openlv for Ambrose and Augustine were both of the West or Latine Church and therefore the fecret whispering of the Popish Church is prooued to be but new in comparison belike inuented since transubstantiation came to towne and therefore that custome prooueth nothing worth the answering howsoeuer Sander prefer it before the custome of the elder Church To the which I answer that Amen may be said as well to wordes of promise and more properly then to wordes of performance For Amen doth not only affirm a thing to be so but also wisheth that it may be so But now there is another ancient custome witnessed by Irenaeus out of Euseb. lib. 5. Cap. 24. who reproouing Victor bishop of Rome for excōmenicating the Churches of Asia dissenting from him in the celebration of Easter affirmeth that Soter Anicetus Pius Higinus Telesphorus and Xystus vsed solemnely to sende the Eucharisty to those preists who came out of those quarters where Easter was kept otherwise then it was it Rome Ergo saith he the sacrament is a corporall reall thing which may be preserued caried sent vp and down and so at last receiued And so consequently the wordes in question are words of performance and not of promise Although the consequence is not sure yet the foundation of this whole argument is nought For Irenaeus sayeth not that the Sacrament was preserued carryed sent vp and downe but that it was sent solemnly vnto strangers not into forreine countries but to such as came to Rome neither doeth hee saye that it was sent vnto their lodginges or Innes but for any thing that he sayeth it was sent vnto them beeing present at the time of distribution and celebration of the supper for he sayeth before Nunquam tamen ob hoc repulsi sunt ab Ecclcsiae societate aut venientes ab illis paribus non sunt suscepti Yet were they neuer for this repulsed from the societie of the Church or comming from those partes were not receiued And afterwarde hee sheweth that Anicetus did giue place vnto Polycarpus permitting him to minister the Communion as one whome he honoured So that no reseruation nor sending vp and downe is heereof prooued other then sending the communion by the Deacons about the Church as their custome was But Iustinus sayth expressely that it was sent vnto them which were absent by the Deacons which had no power to consecrate and therefore Caluine reprooueth that custome for an abuse But for as much as Iustinus maketh mention before of the collation of almes which was also blessed and that he affirmeth that the Deacous carried it is not vnlike but that this carriage might be of bread and wine which was then offered in greate quantitie to the reliefe of such poore as beeing letted by sicknesse or imprisonment coulde not be present at the holy assemblies Or if you will needes vnderstande that which was sent to be the sacrament although the Deacons might not consecrate yet might they declare the vertue and force of the consecration and the vse of the Sacrament vnto such as they did carie it from the congregation with which those that vpon necessarie cause were absent were present in spirite might communicate more tollerably then they which among the Papists when thei haue no let refuse to cōmunicate with the priest and after in sicknesse receiue their masse cake communicating with none at all Neuerthelesse it cannot be denyed but such carrying of the sacrament if it were vsed in the eldest Church was an abuse because it hath none allowance in the holy Scriptures of Christes institution but a commaundement to the contrarie for these wordes Take and eate bee wordes of commaunding therefore keeping and sending which are contrarie to these cannot be defended howsoeuer they might be excused Wherefore it is without reason that Caluine is charged with intollerable pride for finding fault with the primitiue Church and bringing no reason of his reprouing For Caluine opposeth the commaundement of Christ the end of the institution which he worthily calleth the trueth against any custome of any man how good soeuer he were Cyprian sayeth wee must not regarde what any man hath done before vs but what Christ which is before all hath done and commanded to be done lib. 2 Ep. 3. The custome of ministring with water was ancient and vsed in the primitiue Church by some as it should seeme by Cyprian otherwise godly men But he concludeth against it Neque hominis consuetudinem sequi oportet sed Dei veritatem Neither must we followe the custome of man but the trueth of God It is therefore a fault to keepe the sacramentall bread and wine or to sende it about because Christ hath neither done nor commanded it to be done but the contrarie to be eaten and dronken This reason of Cyprian is Caluins reason of whose writinges Sander willeth all men to take heede and yet he sayeth they shall finde in them neither learning nor honestie If there be no learning in them there is no great danger of hurt by reading of them I marueile what that is which you Papistes call learning for if it be knowledge of sciences of tongues of auncient writinges of things past of
things present weight in reasoning eloquence in vttering power in reprouing or whatsoeuer was in olde time accounted for learning I trust al indifferent men will confesse that great steppes therof may be found in Caluins writing But if learning be nothing else with Papists but that which they fantasie theÌ„selues to knowe there is none learned but Papistes Whereas Sander threatneth vpon the defence of Caluins supposed error taken in hand by any of his scholers to discouer more of the ignorance of their arrogant Master if hee can haue so much leisure from his traiterous practises in Ireland which he hath lately taken in hand vnder the seruice of his diuelish blasphemous antichristian master the Pope I wish him not to spare not doubting but as I haue so discouered his proude and yet blockish ignorance in this Chapter in such sort as his friendes will blush to read it although he be past shame himselfe so in any matter wherein the Church of England doth coÌ„sent with Caluins writing I shal be able by Gods helpe so to defende the trueth that all his much babling trifling quarrelling controlling lying railing shal turne to his owne confusion and the reproche of the Baby lonicall strompet which he laboureth both with penne and sworde tongue and hand both like an heretike a traitor to protest and maintaine against the church of God The second booke CAP. 1. The Catholikes require their cause to be vprightly tryed by the holy scriptures which they haue alwaies studied reuerenced THis request is reasonable if it were faithfully meant but it is nothing but an heretical bragge because you seeme to haue colour in the holy scriptures for your carnall and as you call it real presence otherwise what studie soeuer you haue followed in your closets your open writings declare small reuerence vnto the holy Scriptures For Pigghius one of them whome you name to haue conuinced these heresies in our dayes by holy scripture calleth the holy Scripture a nose of waxe and a dumbe Iudge These I weene be wordes of small reuerence Eckius another of them calleth the Scripture a blacke Gospell and an inkish diuinitie And Hosius a thirde man sayeth these wordes of our Sauiour Christ Drinke ye all of this if they be vnderstoode generally aswell of lay men as of Priestes to bee the expresse wordes of the diuell and that there is no worde in all the Scripture of power to saue but one onely worde Dilige And generally all Papistes which before our time and in our dayes haue taken vpon them the exposition of the holy Scriptures submitting the vnderstanding of them to the Popes determination declare that they reuerence them not as the holye worde of God but esteeme them as a leaden rule which they maye drawe to any thing that shall please them The absuide and lewde interpretations of many of the Popes and other their applesquires whereof the subtiler Papists in these dayes are ashamed woulde fill a large volume if I shoulde goe about to rehearse them The best excuse that Harding can finde for many of them is that they are spirituall daliance in the diuels name by which you may see what reuerence they beare to the holy scriptures that make them an argument of daliance CAP. II. It is proued by the worde of God that euill men receiue the bothe of Christ in his supper The Apologie against which Sander fighteth professeth That in the supper vnto such as beleeue there is truely giu en the body and bloud of the Lorde Sander replyeth that Iudas receiued the body of Christ ergo not onely they that beleeue Concerning Iudas it is a question whether he receiued the Sacrament or no. Not only because as Sander confesseth that some ancient fathers thought that hee went out before the supper namely Hilarius in Math Can. 30. Post que Iudas prâ—ditâ—y iudicaur sine quo Pascha accepto calice fracto pane conficitur After which thinges Iudas is declared to be a traitour without whome the Passeouer is made the cuppe being taken and the bread being broken But also by consequence of Sanders owne confession in lib. 1 Cap. 4. fol. 18. where hee affirmeth that Christe did institute the Sacrament after he had eaten the Paschall Lamb washed his disciples feete and then sate downe againe to supper But S. Iohn testifieth that Iudas departed immediatly after the soppe receiued which was before supper was ended For this soppe could not be the sacrament as Augustine thinketh seeing the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth a soppe dipped in brothe and so was this soppe dipped in the platter and not in the cuppe But to admitte that Iudas was present and did receiue the Sacrament howe proueth hee that hee receiued the bodie of Christe That which Christe deliuered Iudas receiued Christ deliuered his body ergo Iudas receiued his bodie Neither the maior nor the minor of this argument is out of controuersie For Iudas receiued not whatsoeuer Christ deliuered for Christ deliuered a spirituall communication of his body as Saint Paul witnesseth to them that woulde receiue it which Iudas receiued not therefore the maior is false The minor taketh as graunted that whereof is all the controuersie namely that Christ deliuered his bodie vnder the formes of bread which we deny affirming that hee gaue bread into their handes and his bodie after a spirituall manner to them which receiued it by faith The Apologie further affirmeth the Papists to teach the verie body of Christ to be eaten substantially not onely of wicked men but also which is horrible to speake of mise and dogges Sander answereth that it is not worthe the while to discusse whether mise dogs in some sense eate the body of Christ because the Catholiks kepe it so warily that neither mouse nor dog may com nigh it wherin he controlleth the scholemen who haue long disputations doctorall determinations of that question In the end he thinketh it worse that wicked men shoulde eate then if dogges or mise should eate it But in deede they are both blasphemous absurdities As for the fathers whome he quoteth for wicked mens eating of the body of Christ we shal consider in the next Chapter which is proper for that title His next argument is out of S. Paul whosoeuer shall eat this breade and drinke this cupp of the Lorde vnworthily shal bee guiltie of the bodie and bloud of the Lord. Of this text he reasoneth thus vnworthie eating supposeth an eating It is verie true but Saint Paul calleth it eating of this bread and not eating of this bodie Yea saith Sander Saint Paul doeth warily describe that kind of bread both with an article and a Pronoune ergo that breade is the bodie of Christ. I denie that argument The article and the Pronoune shewe that it is not common breade but the sacrament of the bodie and bloud of Christ. But howe can hee which eateth this bread vnworthily bee guiltie of the bodie
Christ we are nourished to immortalitie Hereupon Sander inferreth that nourishmeÌ„r is meat really present ergo the bodie and bloud of Christ is really present This shal be graunted that the bodie bloud of Christ is really present with them whom it norisheth vnderstanding really for truly and indeede and vnfainedly But Christ saith Sander gaue with his handes that which nourisheth In proper forme of speech this is false for he had not his natural bodie and bloud in his hands but a sacrament thereof which was a seale and certaine perswasion vnto the faithfull of the performance of his promise which was the communicating of his body and bloude which was performed after an heauenly and spirituall manner CAP. VI. The vnion which is made by eating Christes reall flesh must needes be a naturall vnion before it be a mysticall For this naturall vnion he bringeth no proofe but promiseth the proofe in other places following therfore vnto those places I deferre the answere In the meane time it is a monstrous absurditie that seeing the mysticall vnion with Christ is of all the elect that euer were he affirmeth that it cannot be without a naturall vnion by eating Christs flesh and bloud in the sacrament CAP. VII That the Apologie speaking of the Lordes supper goeth cleane from the word of God The wordes of the Apologie are these We doe acknowledge the Eucharist or the Lordes supper to be a sacrament that is to say an euident token of the body and bloud of Christ. This is to bring men from the word of God saith he to the traditions of men For where haue you in all the scripture that the Lordes supper is a signe or token of the body and bloud of Christ that is a sacrament And because these wordes are not found in the scriptures from the beginning of the Genesis vnto the end of the Apocalipse writen in so many letters he fometh and fretteth like a mad dogg against the authors of the Apologie for going from the worde of God to the authority of men Augustine and Ambrose c. Then the which quarels nothing can be inuented more foolish or further from all witt learning and honesty For when we appeale to the authority of the scriptures in all thinges we neuer meant or saide that all other wordes should be forsaken which are not expressed in the bible but that no doctrine is to be credited by what terme so euer it be vttered except the same be grounded vpon the manifest sense and meaning of the holy scripture either expressed in plaine wordes or els gathered by necessary consequence Therefore seing the meaning of the names of sacrament signe or token may necessarily bee proued out of the holy scriptures and for that cause haue ben taken vp and vsed by the ancient fathers in the primitiue Church wee vse them as freely as they did and as we vse other names likewise the meaning of which is plaine to be found in the scriptures although the termes them selues be not as Trinity persons consubstantiall c. If Sander durst deny the names of sacrament signe or token to be agreable to the scriptures I would take paines to prooue them but seing he confesseth that they are good and lawfull to be vsed of the supper of Christ it were superfluous la bour to trauell in a needlesse question Among the names that are giuen to the Lordes supper in the scripture That the cupp is called The new testament in the bloud of Christ and that of S. Paul the supper is called spirituall meate and spirituall drinke which last name Sander heaping vp the rest omitteth it doth proue the names of sacrament signe and token soe inuincibly that we are no more afraide to vse them then any of the other expressed in plaine wordes of the scripture The name of sacrifice which he enterlaceth by the way because it is afterward more at large discussed I omit to write of at this time CAP. VIII That S. Ambrose and S. Augustine taught moe then two sacramentes It had bene meet that a sacrament had bene first defined and then this trifling should not haue arisen of the word Sander himselfe vnderstandeth mysterium in S. Ambrose for a mystery or sacrament And in deed the Greekes call that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the Latines call Sacramentum But if euery mystery shall be a Sacrament in that sense that baptisme and the Lordes supper are so called there shall not be onely seuen Sacraments as he would haue but more then seuentie The name therefore of Sacrament or mystery is somtims generally taken for euery secret thing that hath an hidden vnderstanding so is matrimony of S. Paul called a mystery and of Augustine the Sacrament of matrimonie and ordination is vsed De bon Con. Cap. 24. so is oyle and imposition of hands cont Donat. lib. 5. Cap. 20. reckoned among the mysteries and Sacramentes But that which Sander doth alleage out of Ambrose is inforced for speaking of the power which priestes haue to remitt sinnes by repentance or by baptisme he saith Vnum in vtroque mysterium Sed dices quia in â—auacro operatur mysterioruÌ„ gratia Quid in poenitentia nonne dei nomen operatur There is one mystery in both But thou wilt say because in baptisme the grace of the mysteries doth worke What in repentance doth not the name of God worke in these wordes although he call them both mysteries Yet he putteth a manifest difference for in baptisme he acknowledgeth the grace of the mysteries to worke with that visible seale in the other the name of god onely wtout a visible seale which Sander perceiuing and not being able to answere these places of Augustine and Ambrose which are cited by the authors of the Apologie for the number of the Sacramentes flieth to the authority of the late councell of Florence not regarding what Ambrose or Augustine hath written who he saith had not the charge to reckon vp how many Sacramentes there are And I say that the seuen Sacramentes were not named in any session of that councel but only in a decree of Eugenius the fourth vpon the surâ—ised reconciliation of the Armenians which is of small credit the same Eugenius for his notable wickednes being long before deposed by the councell of Basil and an other Pope being chosen in his place CAP. IX That the supper of our Lord is the chiefe Sacrament of all but not acknowledged of the Apologie according to the word of God Seing the holy scripture preferreth not the one Sacrament aboue the other and they are both a like effectual seales of the mercy of God to the saluation of his elect there is no cause why the Apologie shoulde acknoweledge such excellency of the one aboue the other as Sander would imagine But it is a matter of greate importance with Sander that Dionysius calleth it the Sacrament of Sacramentes whereby it is not onely proued to
and the same breade and wine must againe signifie the flesh and bloud of Christ although wee say that bread and wine in the sacrament are a seale and confirmation of that doctrine which Christe teacheth in this Chapter concerning the eating and drinking of his very true and naturall flesh and bloud which hath power to seede vnto eternall life them that eat and drinke it spiritually as there is none other way of eating and drinking thereof but by faith through the almightie working of Gods holy spirite The fourth Booke The preface of the fourth Book declareth that he purposeth in the same to shew that the words of the institution of the supper are proper and not figuratiue and so haue beene taken aboue 1500. And that they are proper he wili prooue by circumstances of the supper by conference of scriptures out of the olde and newe Testament by the commandement giuen to the Apostles to continue the sacrament vntil the second comming of Christ. Last of all he craueth pardon if he chaunce to say somewhat that was touched before affirming that his purporse is not so to doe although by affinitie of the argument desire to haue the thing remembred or by his owne forgetfulnesse he may be caused to fall into that default CAP. I. That no reason ought to be hearde why the wordes of Christes supper should nowe be expounded vnproperly or figâ—ratiuely And that the Sacramentarics can neuer be sure thereof Christ saith he in his last supper was both a testator and a lawe maker a testator in giuing his bodie and 〈…〉 oude and a lawemaker in commanding his Apostels 〈…〉 d their successours to continue the making of this 〈…〉 acrament This testament and law was soone after writ 〈…〉 n and published At which time and euer since the Church hath taken these wordes This is my bodie not 〈…〉 guratiuely but properly This last saying is vtterly 〈…〉 alse neither can it bee prooued by Ambrose Chryso 〈…〉 tome Augustine Theodoret whom hee nameth or any before or after their time for 600 yeares that euer the visible Sacrament was adored as the very bodie of Christ. If he haue any thing to shewe we shall haue it hereafter But it is a follie he saith vpon allegation of a thing so farre beyonde the memorie of man as the primitiue Church is to leaue the custome of the present Church which Christ no lesse redeemed gouerneth and loueth then he did the faithfull of the first sixe hundreth yeares I answere shortly that is not the Church of Christ but of antichrist which of late yeares hath taught the worshiping of the sacrament as God and man And whereas Sander replieth that then we shall haue no quietnes or end of controuersies if heretikes may appeale to the primitiue Church as the Trinitaries in Poolande and the Circumciders in Lithuania for these appeale to the primitiue Church and denie writings of Fathers and scriptures as the Protestant I answere the Protestants receiue all the canonicall scriptures by which all heresie may be condemned the autoritie or practise of the primitiue Church they alledge but as a witnesse of trueth which is sufficient prooued out of the worde of God Whereas he saith there was but one vniuersall chaunge to bee looked for in religion which was to be made by Christ I affirme the trueth of Christs religion to be vnchangeable but there was an vniuersall chaunge to be looked for from Christes religion to Antichrist which saint Paul calleth an Apostasie saint Iohn in the Reuelation the cuppe of fornication whereof all nations should drinke c. Yet was not this chaunge so vniuersal but that the seruants of God though in small number and credit with the world were preserued out of that generall apostasie and called out of Babylon as wee see it nowe come to passe by the preaching of the eternall Gospel then also foreshewed Apocal. 14. 17. 18. c. Another reason why we shoulde giue none eare to them that say the words are figuratiue is for that then wee shoulde doubt of our former faith and in doubting become men that lacke faith And why should you not onely doubt but refuse a false opinion beleeued contrarie to the worde of God But wee must tell Sander whether hee that gaue eare first to Berengarius and Zwinglius may giue eare to an other that shoulde say the Apostels had no authoritie to write holie Scriptures No forsooth for hee that gaue eare to Berengarius and Zwinglius did heare them because they brought the authoritie of scriptures which is the onely certaine rule of truth against which no question or doubt may be mooued As for the opinion of carnall presence if it had beene as generally receiued before Berengarius as Sander falsely affirmeth yet it was lawfull to bring it to the triall of holy Scriptures as we doe all the articles of our faith which are true not so much because they are generally receiued as for that they are manifestly approued by the authoritie of the holy scriptures But Sander will yet enter farther into the bowels of the cause before he heare what reasons caÌ„ be brought against the popish faith he saith the Sacramentaries cannot possiblie haue any grounde of their doctrine that the wordes of Christ in the supper are figuratiue either in respect of the worde written or the faith of all Christians or the glorie of God or the loue of Christ toward vs or the profite of his Church Yes verilie all these fiue respects moue vs to take the wordes of Christ at his supper to be figuratiue And First the word written by saint Luke and saint Paul This cuppe is the newe Testament in my bloude which wordes being manifestly figuratiue haue the same sense that the other rehearsed by Saint Matthewe and Saint Marke This is my bloude and that these wordes haue This is my bodie which are vsed by all fower Therefore by the written worde they are all figuratiue and signifie the deliuerie of a Sacrament or seale of the newe couenant established in the death and bloudshedding of the sonne of God Secondly the faith of all Christians for sixe hundred yeares and more after Christe hath beene sufficiently prooued to haue vnderstoode the wordes figuratiuely for a figure signe token pledge of the bodie and bloude of Christe and not for the verie substance contained in formes of breade and wine Insomuch that the verie glosse vppon the Canon Lawe De cons. dist 2. Cap. Hoc est hath these wordes Coeleste Sacramentum quod verè representat Christi carnem dicitur corpus Christi sed impropriè vnde dicitur suo modo sed non in veritate sed significante mysterio vt sit sensus vocatur corpus Christi id est significat The heauenly Sacrament which truely representeth the fleshe of Christ is called the bodie of Christ but improperly Whereof it is saide to bee after a peculyar manner but not in trueth of the thing but in
the other Although he speake contrary to poperie which teacheth the presence to be after consecration and not at the time of consecrating But what bridle may hold in the shameles furie of Sander The third figure is of the paschall lambe which was a figure of Christs death and so applied by S. Iohn in that saying you shal not break a bone of him Ioan. 19. S. Paul 1. Cor. 5. not a figure of the supper from which as it differeth in signe so it is all one in the thing signified The fourth is the prophesie and figure of Manna which as the Apostle teacheth 1. Cor. 10 was the same spirituall meate that we eate not a figure thereof but a sacrament of our spirituall feeding by the flesh of Christ like as the water of the rocke which was Christ was a Sacrament of our spiritual nourishment by the bloud of Christ. Wherefore the partes of this comparison as they haue ben all answered before in the third book so they are of no force to prooue the real presence or transubstantiation but the contrary seing the differeÌ„ce of these two Sacramentes Manna and the Lordes bread is only in the signes nothing at all in the vertue of the things signified according to S. Aug. rule The fist figure is of the bloud of the old Testament wherunto the bloud of Christ shedde on the crosse doth answere as the Apostle manifestly teacheth Heb. 9. therefore these wordes of the supper This is the bloud of the new Testament of necessity must be figuratiue euen as these which are of the same sense This cuppe is the new Testament in my bloud For we may not so farre aduance the Sacrament that we abase the death of Christ which is the only Sacrifice for our sinnes The sixt is the prophecy and figure of Iob which is a manifest peruerting of the scripture from the true meaning for either Iob complaineth of the cruelty of his seruantes that would euen eate his flesh in his aduersity and speaketh not of the loue that his seruantes had to be ioyned vnto his flesh as the context of that place Iob. 31. doth euidently shew or els he sheweth the complaint of his seruantes that were so occupied in hospitality that they had no leasure to eate their meat and therefore desired to eate the meare that was prouided for the stranger Or if with Chrysost. we should vnderstand their desire to be of eating of Iobs flesh yet it perreineth not to transubstantiation seing we may eate the flesh of Christ without eating of the Sacrament The seuenth conference is of prophecies taken out of Dauid and Salomon whereas neither of both speaketh of the Sacrament Dauid saith Psa. 22. Thou hast prepared a table in my sight against them who afflict me By which wordes he sheweth how bountifully God had bestowed his benifâ—â—â— vpon him both in this life and also with assurance of the 〈◊〉 to come without any special regard vnto the supper of Christ or any Sacrament that was of the same signification vnto him The saying of Salomon Pro. 9. I haue an swered in the beginning of this work where it was placed by Sander The 8. conference is another Prophecie of Dauid where he saith all that be fat vpon earth haue eaten adored Sander saith they haue adored that which they do eat but Dauid saith not so Ps. 21. but that they shal worship God the author of their food as it followeth immediatly They shall all fall down c. And whereas Sander quoteth Aug. in Ps. 98. to iustifie the adoratioÌ„ of the blessed Sacrament of the altar the footstoole wherin the fulnes of the godhead corporally dwelleth you shall vnderstaÌ„d that Augustine vtterly denieth the Lords supper to be that bodie that was crucified but a Sacrament which being spiritually vnderstood shall quicken vs. The last conference is of many prophecies figures ioyned together as he saith for breuities sake The first is of Noe being naked after he was drunk laughed to scorne of his sonne So saith Sander was Christ after he had drunke his owne bloud in his supper which he planted for him selfe in the virgins wombe hanged naked laughed to scorne not only of the Iewes but also of the Sacramentaries for so grosse a deede that he drank his owne bloud vnder the form of wine What shal I say to this monstrous blasphemie wherein he compareth that filthie drunkennes shameles nakednes of Noe to the holy mysterie and passion of Christ After this he ioyneth the cakes that Abraham set before the Angels as figures of that mystical cake which was to come in Christs supper but whereof then were the butter milk calues flesh figures O madnesse more then folly for now wheresoeuer bread corn wine vines fruits of the earth were named all were figures of the sacrament wherin yet he saith is neither bread nor wine nor substance of any earthly fruit Isaac blessed Iacob which corne wine saying to Esau what caÌ„ I do more to theeâ— Iacob prophecied of the fat bread of Aser that should giue deinties to the faithful kings of that church God promiseth as the highest reward for keping of his coÌ„mandement to blesse the loaues of his people to giue abundance of bread wine If it be lawfull for Sander on this sort to play with the holy scriptures he may proue what he list And more probably might we proue the substaÌ„ce of bread wine to remaine in the SacrameÌ„t of which the scripture speaketh so often with so great coÌ„mendation if we should reason after his maner As for the meat of the sacrifice the she we bread the priests Ioaues they were in deede figures ofy e spiritual feeding that both they we had haue of yâ— flesh of Christ. But the curse of Elies house that his posterity should come beg a morsel of bread at the successors of Sadoc it is a grosse prophanatioÌ„ of Gods word to apply it to a submission of the Priests of the Church to obteine the Sacrament And the dissembling of Dauid before Achis which came of infidelity is blasphemous to apply to our Sauiour Christe and especially with such termes as Sander vseth At his last supper he driuelâ—d like a child to their seeming that be wise in the world he changed his countenance and caried himselfe after a sort in his owne handes when holding and giuing to be eaten that whith seemed bread he doubted not to say this is my body c. For Christ carying him selfe after a sort in his owne handes Augustine is cited in Ps. 33. who being deluded with that fond translation ferebatur in manibus suis which is neither according to the Hebrue text 1. Sam. 21. which saith he plaied the mad man in their handes nor according to the vulgar Latine which saith collabebatur inter manus eorum he fell downe among their handes troubleth himself to find how Dauid as a figure of Christ should
is not to be adored Whosoeuer receiueth any of Christs disciples receiueth Christ but hee shal be an Idolater if he giue diuine honour to him which is due onely to the person of Christ. The like answere I make to that Ambrose saith de ijs qui myst cap. 9. that Christ is in the Sacrament To Ignatius Ep. ad Rom. calling the Sacrament the breade of God the heauenly breade the breade of life To Euseb. lib. 10. cap. 10. calling it a Sacrifice full of God and the dreadfull Sacrifices of Christes table To Cyrillus lib. 3. in Ioan cap. 37. saying that by the mysteries wee are made partakers of the diuine nature Neither doe the sayings of Cyrillus nor Hilarius lib. 4. cap. 18. prooue a personall vnion of Christ with the Sacrament when they say it maketh Christ to dwell in vs corporally and by a naturall participation for they say not so simplie but vnder a Sacrament vnder a mysterie c. that is the Sacrament doth assure vs that wee are truely made partakers of the bodie and bloude of Christe after an heauenly and diuine manner and not onely are ioyned to him in loue and faith and will but are made flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone by his incarnation and holy spirite vniting vs vnto him in a mystical bodie not in a personal vnion for if any thing which is truely the bodie of Christ must be adored with diuine honour the Church of God should bee so adored which is the bodie of Christ and so called in the Scripture Finally Hesychius calling the Sacrament the breade of life and the mysticall loaues which quicken vs c. gaue no diuine honour vnto it as personally vnited vnto Christ but as to an holy mysterie and seale of our spirituall feeding and coniunction with Christ. For Hesychius affirmeth that mysterie to bee both breade and flesh in Leuit. lib. 2. chap. 8. But Sander vppon these sayings buildeth that the Fathers affirmed that which was on the table to bee the diuine substance yea the substance and nature of God which is to be adored and cannot be eaten corporally but in the Sacrament And yet no one father that hee hath cited saieth any such thing If Cyrill say we are by the mysteries made partakers of the diuine nature Saint Peter saith by Gods promises we are made partakers of the diuine nature 2. Pet. 1. Yet not of the diuine substance And to saye the Godheade can be corporally eaten in the Sacrament it is monstrous heresie When Cyrillus saith Christ dwelleth in vs corporally hee saith not by eating the Sacrament wee eate GOD or Christ corporally but the power of the mysticall blessing maketh Christ to dwell in vs corporallie by participation of the fleshe of Christ. But let vs yet heare a more full witnesse which is Chrysostome in 1. Cor. Hom. 24. the place although it be fully answered by mee against Heskins lib. 2. cap. 45. yet because Sander maketh so manie obseruations vpon it I will set it downe againe Hoc corpus c. The wise men reuerenced this body in the manger and being men without good religion and barbarous they worshipped it with feare and much trembling after a long iourney taken Let vs therefore who are the citizens of heauen at lest follow those barbarous men For when they sawe the manger and cottage and not any of those thinges which thou nowe seest they came with most great reuerence and quaking But thou seest that thing not in the Manger but in the Altar not a woman which might hold it in her armes but the Priest present and the holy ghost copiously spredde vpon the sacrifice which is set foorth Neither lookest thou barely vpon the bodie as they did but thou knowest the power of it and al the order of dispensing thinges And thou art ignorant of none of these thinges which were done by him and thou hast beene diligently instructed in all things Let vs be stirred vp therefore let vs quake and let vs professe openly a greater deuotion then those barbarous men lest if we come barely and coldly we ieoparde our head into a more vehement fire Out of this place Sander would haue the reall presence and adoration of the sacrament prooued But this place prooueth neither of both For he speaketh figuratiuely of seeing the bodie of Christ of seeing the holy ghost spredde vpon the Sacrifice c. which cannot bee referred to the eyes of the bodie but must needes haue a spirituall vnderstanding The bodie of Christ is so present as it may be seene but it cannot bee seene but spiritually therefore it is not present but spiritually This is sufficient to shewe that Chrysostome spake not of the popish reall presence therefore not of their manner of adoration Nowe let vs see what wise arguments Sander can picke out of this place First we must note these comparisons The Altar the Manger the Virgin the Priest the Wisemen the Christians the adoration of the one and the other but this last comparison is forged for Chrysostome requireth our imitation of the wise men in comming to the Sacrament with reuerence and trembling with earnest desire and affection not in giuing honour to the outwarde creatures but to him that is seene by faith Further Sander chargeth him to say it is the same bodie in both places which Chrysost. saith not although it be the same body which is receiued spiritually in the Sacrament with that which the wise men did worship yet it followeth not that the same real body is present vpon the altar before it be receiued to bee there worshipped Sander vrgeth Chrysostomes words vides in altari thou seest it on the altar Lo it is vpon the altar and not onely comprehended by faith but by the meane of the forme of bread it is seen What say you Sander is the body of Christ seene then is hee present visibly It is a madde kinde of corporall sight of his bodye which is through the forme of bread You were wont to tell vs that a substance is said to be seen where the proper accidents thereof are seene And are the accidents of bread the signes now of the body of Christ O newe Philosophy and Theology but I pray you sir if the body of Christ be not only comprehended by faith but also seen by meane of the forme of bread by what meane is the holy ghost seen whom Chrysostome likewise affirmeth to be seen as the body of Christ is Will you neuer be ashamed of those impudent shiftes in wresting the holy scriptures and sayinges of the ancient fathers As for the foure reasons that Christian men should rather worship the Sacrament then the wise men did Christ in the cottage be in vaine For Chrysostom draweth no example of their worshipping to worshippe that which is visibly seene in the Sacrament or the elementes thereof but of comming with reuerence vnto the bodye of Christ which is really in heauen whereof we are made partakers
Sander S. Augustine spake these wordes to the faithlesse Iewes of Capernaum and not to Catholikes Fulke If Iewes become faithfull what differ they from Catholikes why should they haue another maner of eating Christ then other Catholikes Sander S. Augustine confesseth vs to receiue Christ by mouth also Hominem Iesum Christum c. We doe receiue with a faithfull heart and mouth the man Iesus Christ giuing his flesh vnto vs to be eaten and his bloud to be drunke although it may seeme more horrible to eate mans flesh then to kil it and to drinke mans bloud then to shedde it Therefore his meaning is not to remoue vtterly the naturall office of the body as Master Iewel most impudently saith Fulk He remoueth not the natural office of the body from eating the Sacrament but from eating the natural body of Christ. And most horrible is the impudence of Master Sander which dissembleth that S. Augustine in the place by him cited speaketh of figuratiue sayings contra aduers. leg proph lib. 2. Cap. 9. Immediatly before the words by him rehearsed comparing our eating of Christes fleshe with Christ beeing one flesh with his Church and immediatly after the wordes aforesaied concluding that figuratiue sayinges must not bee contemned Sicut duos c. Euen as wee doe knowe Christ and his Church to be two in one flesh without any obscenity against the will of these men Euen as we receiue with faithfull hart and mouth the mediator of God and man the man Iesus Christ c. Atque in omnibus And in all the holy scriptures if any thing which is spoken or done figuratiuely bee expounded according to the rule of sound faith of any matters or wordes which are conteined in the holy scriptures let not that exposition bee taken contemptuously Sander Said he not for the honour of so great a Sacrament it pleased the holy ghost that our Lordes body should enter into the mouth of a Christian before other meates and yet is the office of the body remoued and that vtterly remoued Fulke Said he not before it was a figuratiue speach to eate the flesh of Christ and to drinke his bloud and is it then a great merueile if the Sacrament be called by the name of the thing whereof it is a Sacrament For the question is not in that Ep. 118. Whether the bodye of Christ should be preferred before other things but whether the SacrameÌ„t shuld be receiued fasting or after meat The rest of your chat concerning the councell of 8. Cardinals compared with the conference Wittenberg I passe ouer as conteining no argument touching the matters in question CAP. XVI Sander Whether Christes body dwell really in our 〈◊〉 by his na 〈…〉 itie Iewell Foure speciall meanes there be by euery of which Christes body dwelleth in our bodies not by imagination but really substantially naturally fleshly and in deede Sander You had ben better to haue subscribed foure times than to haue made an assertion so vaine as this Fulke The assertion is of the phrase or manner o speaking against which you cauilâ— most vainely Iewell Christes body by his natiuity whereby hee embraceth vs dwelleth in our bodies really substantially c. Sander If you had said by his incarnation he dwelleth naturaly in vs or we in him that saying might haue a true sense but to say that his body dwelleth in our bodies not onely naturally but also really c. it seemeth to me very hard Fulke His natiuity importeth his incarnation And what meane you by naturally but in the trueth and real substance of his body after a naturall manner Sander Christ tooke not the common general substance of all mankind but onely the whole particular nature of man Fulke Sander fighteth against his owne shadowe for heere is no man that saith against him and so through the whole Chapiter Wheras Master Iewel defendeth the phrase of speaking Christes body dwelleth really c. in our bodies which in som sense is true Sander answereth it is not true in euery sense And he dwelleth not onely by his birth wheras Master Iewel affirmeth three other waies by which Christ may be said so to dwell in vs. Sander One thing I must put you in mind of You defend that Christes naturall body may not be in many places at once but you say now that his body by his natiuity dwelleth really c. in our bodies which dwel in mani places therfore you are against your own doctrin Fulke So long as there be no greater contrarietie in Master Iewels doctrine it is safe inough This is miserable sophistry more worthy to be hissed at among boys â—hen to be answered of learned men I thinke there is no cobler in Cambridge or Oxforde but he could winde himselfe out of this fallacia To dwell in all men by participation of common nature is one thing and one whole bodie to be whole in tenne thousand places is another thing CAP. XVII Sander Whether Christes bodie dwell in our bodies by faith really or no. Fulke The question should be whether this manner of speach in some sense may not be iustified Sander Master Iewels phrase defendeth Ioan of Kents heresie Fulke If he had saide the virgine Mary conceiued Christ by faith in her heart more happily then carnally in her wombe In affirming the one he had not denied the other and yet he had said nothing but the trueth Did not whole Christ dwell in the godly by faith before his incarnation Did they not eate and drinke the bodie bloud of Christ by faith before his bodie was conceiued in the virgins wombe If these sayings be true the other phrase according to this sense may be defended CAP. XVIII Sander The contradiction of M. Iewel concerning Christ really dwelling in vs by faith and not really dwelling in vs by faith Fulke If the worde really may be taken in diuerse senses what contradiction is there when he saith Christ dwelleth in vs really by faith the word really is made opposite to imaginatiuely figuredly or phantastically and signifieth Christ in deede is communicated vnto vs by the effectes of his incarnation death passion resurrection c. Where he saith Christ is not really and fleshly placed in our hearts by faith the word really is opposite to faith which is a substance of things to be hoped foâ— which are not actually present signifieth that the naturall substance of Christs flesh lyeth not locally in the substance of our heartes According to these two significations what contradiction is there but that you are disposed to cauil CAP. XIX Sander Whether Christ dwelleth really in our bodies by baptisme or no. Fulke This saying may be iustified in the affirmatiue as wel as that he dwelleth really in our bodies by the Sacrament of his supper The diuerse vnderstanding of the word really maketh al the controuersie in this matter M. Iewel taketh it in one sense M. Sander in another Not ignorantly mistaking but wilfully maliciously
and other cited in diuerse places of my booke These places he saith are but bare names But when we come to expounding of these places we shall finde eyther reason or auctority of these Doctors for vs. In the meane time we will consider Hieronyme whom Bristowe saith that I confesse to haue allowed prayers for the deade Wherein he saith vntruly for I neuer confessed simply that he allowed prayers for the deade But Pur. 194. I saide interrogatiuely and by waie of concession Howe hapeneth it that Chrysostome and Hieronyme which both interpreted that place could gather no such matter although they otherwise allowed prayer for the deade And indeede in so many bookes of Hieronyme nothing can be found whereby it may be proued that he allowed prayer for the deade although it were a common error of many in his time And in this place cited in the decrees by Gratia◠139. 2. he simply denieth that any prayers are profitable for the deade The place in deede as Bristowe saith is in his Comment vpon Gal. 6. although he in exposition allude to 2. Cor. 5. we must all appeare before the iudgment seate of Christe But the answere of this place of Hierome Bristowe saith I might learne of the glose which expoundeth it of them that die without repentaunce only but in deede it is spoken generally of all men As the very wordes declare vpon this texte Euery one shall beare his owne burthen Videtur superioribus contrair◠vbi ait c. He seemeth to goe against the former sentence where he sayth Beare the burthens one of an other For if euerie one shall beare his owne burthen one cannot beare the burthens of an other But we must consider that there he commanded that we which cōmit sinne should in this life helpe one an other and in this present worlde should be an aide one to an other but here hee speaketh of the iudgment of the Lorde vpon vs that not of other mens sinn or of comparison of the worser but according to our own worke we shal be iudged of him either sinners or holy euery one receiuing according to his owne worke Obscurè licet doce 〈…〉 r per han◠sententiolam nouum dogma quod latitat We are taught by this short sentence though darkely a newe doctrine or opinion whiche lyeth hidde that while we are in this present worlde we may helpe one another either by prayers or by counsels but when we shall come before the iudgement seate of Christe that neither Iob nor Dauid nor Noe can intreate for any man but that euerie one doth beare his owne burthen That which Hierome speaketh of himselfe and of all other that prayers can not auaile them beeing out of this world when the glose restreyneth onely to them that die in mortall sinne without repentance it is as good as the olde iest Statuimus id est abrogamus It is also worthy to be considered that Hierome as it seemeth against the errour of his time calleth this a newe doctrine which he gathereth of that sentence That the moste auncient doctours doe not interprete the Scriptures by name against Purgatorie I said it was because Purgatorie in their time was neither heard nor named Bristowe replyeth that I confessed Cap. 3. that the olde doctours heard both the name and the thing c. Thus he chargeth me still with confessions falsely For although Augustine heard of the name of Purgatorie whereof he sometimes doubteth sometimes denyeth all places but two yet no writer before him Neither were prayers for the dead heard in the Churche before the heresie of Montanus But to returne to Hierome whom I saide in Eccle. 11. to expound the North and South not for the states of grace and wrath but for the places of rewarde or punishment Bristowe sayeth of both But I denie that he speaketh of the state of grace in that sort that Allen meaneth namely that any man so dieth in the state of grace that he obteineth release of punishment after this life which is the matter in question but that Bristowe is disposed to cauill For although a man in this life may be remoued out of the North into the South yet when the tree is fallen there is no more remouing by Hieroms iudgement Wheresoeuer thou preparest thee a place and a seate hereafter whether it be in the South or in the North there when thou art dead thou shalt continue This whiche the Doctor speaketh expressely of a place a seate of euerlasting continuance Bristow for want of a better answere expoundeth of merite as though it might stande with Hieronyms authoritie that the place might be changed although the merite can not be bettered Touching scriptures for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead whether the Doctours say No Scripture to make for it I said that Tertullian confesseth that oblations prayers for the dead were not taken of the scriptures but of tradition Bristow in diuers places denieth any such confession of Tertullian restraining his meaning to an onely ceremonie of oblation and prayers on the yeares day of their departure as though oblation and prayer for the dead generally were clearly taught in the scriptures which thing if it be why doth not Allen or Bristowe or any writer yong or olde bring one place out of the canonicall Scriptures allowing prayer and oblation for the deade and as touching Tertullian his wordes are such as with no equity may be restrained to so particular a ceremonie Oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitiis annua die facimu◠We make oblations for the deade for the day of mens byrth on the yearly daie If Oblationes pr◠natalitiis be not founde in the Scriptures at all neither on the yearly daie nor any other daie Why saie we not the like of Oblationes pro desunctis Againe why maie it not be that the yearly day of celebration is meant only of mens byrth and oblations for the deade left at larg◠for to celebrate the yearly festiuity of mens birth was vsual among the Gentiles euery man for himselfe But to obserue the yearely day of al mens death were infinite either for their friends or for the Priests to doe Wherefore it remaineth that oblations for the dead what soeuer they were in Tertullians time were not taken of the Scriptures And if they were Masse and prayers for the dead as the Papistes say Masse and prayers for the dead are not taken out of the Scriptures by Tertullians confession The contradictions that he layeth to me I alwayes reserue to their peculiar Chapter Augustine also denyeth a third place to be found in the Scriptures D◠Verb. Apost ser. 14. Contra Pelagian Hyp. lib. 5. And De Verb. Apostol Ser. 33 For praying for the dead he alledgeth the tradition of the fathers which he is not wont to doe where scripture doth not faile him Epiphanius likewise against Aerius bringeth no Scripture but the custome and tradition of the Churche in naming the dead in their prayers