did somtime ioyne and cōmunicate This therfore he saith maketh for them and against vs most notably 1 But first let him tell vs if many “ As that of Leu 10. Num. 16.1 c. Esa 1.11 12 13 14 15. Zeph. 1.12 1. Cor. 11.19 thinges which are verified sometimes of the members of a true Church may not also fitly be applyed and alleadged against a false Church and yet not iustifie their estate and constitution neither make for them but against them altogeather Otherwise he condemneth at once all the Martirs heretofore who vsually alleaged this * Mat. 15.9 very Scripture against the false worship of the Romish Church as him selfe cannot he ignorant Yet in his learning it seemeth the Papistes might well haue aunswered the Martirs againe that this Scripture was verified of them that were of the true visible Church and therefore made for them and against the Martirs most notably 2 Secondly when he saith this Scripture is verified of such as were of the true visible Church with whom Christ and his Apostles communicated Let him also tell vs whether he meaneth that Christ and his Apostles communicated with them in their vaine traditions If he thinke they did that very “ Mat. 15.2 Chapter sheweth the contrary besides that the whole Scriptures testifie that Christ was altogeather free from sinne which hee could not haue bene if he had ioyned with them in those their inuentions If they did not as it is without all question then what doth this helpe those men who all of them ioyne and communicate with the false worship of these assemblies 3 Thirdly we aunswer that his note is not worth the noting being nothing at all to the purpose for the question in hand For first who knoweth not that in the Iewish Church the doctrine publiquely professed practised by their law did not appoinct or ratifie any of those vaine traditions but vtterly forbid them Wheras contrarily the very doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifieth the false worshiping of God by the inuentions of men Secondly those vaine traditions aforesaid were the personall sinnes of some particuler men in the Iewish Church not publiquely established by law nor generally receiued and practized in that Church * Luk. 1.5 6 8 9 10. 2.21 22 23 24 25 27.36 37 38 39 Mat. 15.7 8.4 and 15 2. Ioh. 10.34 Zachary and Elizabeth Simeon Anna Mary Ioseph and Christ himselfe and his Apostles with many others kept the ordinance of God giuen by the hande of Moses and obserued of that Church Neither did they ioyne or pollute them selues with that vaine worship aforesaid whereas in the church of England the false worship thereof deuised by men euen by that man of sinne is not the personall sinne of some particular men in it but is publikelie established by law and generally receyned and practised in these assemblies of all the members thereof So then this scripture maketh nothing for them but against them most notably Nowe whereas in the margent he wisheth the Reader to marke a contrarietie with our selues by comparing this and our 6. Reason together we also referre it to the Reader to iudge whether there be not euen an harmonie with this and a confirmation of it Hetherto of the defence of our second Reason H. IACOB his 2 Reply to the 2. Reason TO this your defence of your Second Reason I say you haue answer in your last Exceptiō pag. 22. You aske what Propositiō I doe deny I answer I distinguish your Aflumption as being a fallacie called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cōcluding a thing simply from that which is after a sort like vnto that Reason which I framed against you in Pag. 22. A man hath a woodden legg an eye of glasse c Therefore hee is no true man Cranmer Ridley c. held asmuch as wee after mens precepts Ergo they worshiped in vaine Geneua holdeth her wafer cakes in the Supper Ergo Geneua worshipeth God in vaine Euen so your Assumption runneth Our doctrine say you Pag. 35. appoincteth Gods worship by mens precepts This is false vnlesse you meane it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after a sort not simply For our doctrine appoincteth not all Gods worship by mens precepts nor the chiefest part of it as the preaching of the Gospell of life Sacramentes and Prayers c. So that it concludeth nothing in that sence Therefore here you play the false Sophister not the Christian and conscionable Disputer Thus you haue answer enough to this in the aunswer to your last Exception though you would not see it Further I noted Secondly * Pag. 35. That this your Scripture of Mat. 15. Yeeldeth the offenders to be of a visible Church with whom Christ did communicate though they held also traditions of men Therfore it affirmeth nothing against vs. Is not this true Why then doe you not admit it We neuer denyed but this Scripture condemned our corruptions But this onely wee affirme it disanulleth not our Churches Euen as Christ here condempned the Iewes corrupt traditions but hee meant not thereby to disanull their Church Therefore all this is not against our purpose but not ably for vs as is before obserued 1. Concerning your First aunswer in Pag. 36. I know this Scripture may be applyed against false worshippers which are no true Church But it proueth not I say all them to whom it may bee applyed to bee no true Church Therefore you abuse it against vs Except you had first proued vs no true Church nor Christians which yet is in question 2. Where in your Second answere * Pag. 37. you say That this helpeth vs not except we say that Christ communicated with the Pharisies in these traditions like as wee doe in the vaine traditions now For shame leaue this folly I say againe I seeke not to iustifie our partaking in our traditions but I renounce it in sobrietie asmuch as you yea better then you doe Yet I say this place shall admit those who doe in simplicitie partake of them to be true Christians neuerthelesse like as it admitteth the Iewes then 3. In your Third aunswer “ Pag. ibid. You deny that those Jewish traditions of wasshings c. were with them receiued generally or by Law in their Church Whereto I aunswer That they were generally receiued as Marke in his 7. Chapter and 3. verse doeth testifie and that they were rebuked who vsed them not which is sufficient to make it their Churches doctrine practize though no expresse law commaunded it But I suppose verse 5. where they say Why walkest thou not after the tradition of the Elders he meaneth the ordinances of their Forefathers which were to them as lawes besides the lawe of Moses What else is their Thalmud which is till this daye euen like to the Canon lawe of Poperie and the Alcoran of Turky Some also vnderstand this of the ordinances of the Elders that is their
he sayth We sinned against the Third commaundement in the application of the scriptures aforesaid That is their owne common custome and lamentable sinne to breake the Third commaundement in taking the name of God in vaine not onely by falsifying and peruerting the scriptures but also by their Ministration of the Word Sacramentes and Gouernment of the Church by vertue of such offices and callings as Christ neuer appointed in his worde therevnto but were first deuised and still are reteyned by Antichrist that sonne of perdition Hitherto of his answere concerning the proofe of our Proposition To the proofe of our Assumption he “ Marke this his sounde and Scholerlike dâ—alinge in this place and afterwards answereth not a worde which yet most of all required answere if he would in deede soundlie defende their estate as he pretendeth That their profession and practise ioyneth Christ Antichrist togeather we shewed in pag. 28 c. by their Articles Canons Iniunctions Aduertisements c. published at sundry times by their present Ministerie Worship and Church-gouernement according therevnto If this be not so why bringes he not warraunt for these particulers from the Testament of Christ and so take away the proofe of our Asumption Jf this be so as by his silence he graunteth and wee are sure he cannot shew the contrarie by the Scriptures then our Assumption standeth firme and consequently in this constitution they cannot be accounted true Christians nor their Assemblies so gathered true constituted Churches H. JACOB his 2. Reply vnto the 1. Reason 1 IN this your defence of your first Reason you would first of all fasten on me a contradiction for gráunting that our Church corruptions are from Antichrist which against your Second Exception J said wee holde to be Christs owne viz. Because we hold Christ hath giuen his Church that libertie to deuise them Alas it pittieth mee to see your simplicitie or it greueth me for your malice who could not see that there I spake in the person of our whole Church and state See Pag. 12. 18. 19. and shewed what they held And here I speake as I thought my selfe This is a silly contradiction 2. Then you say Pag. 25. I dazell the peoples eyes in saying some outward orders and ceremoines are from Antichrist as if they were but a few and of small moment Therefore you are content to recken them vp full tediously God knoweth euen 91. in number numero Deus impare gaudet And what of all these will you saye therefore That whosoeuer holdeth these cannot holde Christ vnto saluation And so Mr. Cranmer and the rest of the Martirs were damned But if not Then I saye againe These some these 91. are too few and too slight and of too small momeÌ„t of them selues and of their owne nature to abolishe vs from Christ This ought you to haue proued which you neuer doe but still your speech is most false and not vnproper onely that wee ioyne Christ and Antichrist togeather As in the maimed maÌ„ before * Pag. 25. noted there is not life death ioyned togeather but liuing things and dead things are and yet the man aliue and a true man 3. Then “ 2 cor 14. c Eze. 43.8 â— King 17.33 34 40 41. you will iustify your applying the scriptures which I said were mismatched were meant against the Idolatry of the First commandment not against the Idolatry of the Second only and meerelie as our Church orders in question are Therefore these scriptures cannot inferre any abolishing from Christ by simple holding of the corruptions in our Church which they doe proue by the simple holding of those Heathenish Idolatries whereof they speake To this you reply in Foure points 1 Jf these places bee meant of Heathenish Idolatry which could neuer stand with Gods truth togeather Yet they forbid all other corruptions against the Second commaundement also That I neuer denyed to be true after a sort These places indeed doe forbid the breach of the Second coÌ„maundement but not principally directly and of purpose nor in that measure or fulnes But their immediat purpose is against the Heathenish Idolatry breaking the First commaundement So that they forbid the breach of the Second commaundemeÌ„t consequently and proportionatly but not in that full manner as they doe the First They forbid the First so as that they shew there is no communion with God whilst men ioyne in such Idolaty they simply forbid the Second but deny not al communion with God to whom soeuer erreth therein 2 To your SecoÌ„d Reply I say make much of it for my parte I neuer thought other but our church corruptions are against the Second commaundement your second scripture here applied is of Saul I. Sam. 1â— a presumptuous and wilfull offendour if you make our whole Churches so your sinne is the greater 3 Thirdlie if you meane anie of Antichristes Idolatrie and false worship and namelie this in question the outward corrupt orders and ceremonies onely and no more doeth abolish vs from Christ and that this can not stande togeather with true faith like as the Pagans idolatrie against the First commaundement can not Then I denie it vtterlie you haue no proofe in the world for it And this inwrappeth Master Cranmer Ridley c. in the same course Your excuse here pag. 29. That Cranmer Ridley c. forsooke all the corruptions they sawe This belongeth to manie Thousands in England nowe no lesse then to them yea surelie there are infinite that knowe not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignoraunt of redemption by Christ c. Yea your selfe Maister Iohnson though a man of learning yea knowing our corruptions and misliking them a long time before you forsooke vs yet I thinke you stood not abolished from Christ all that while I pray bee so good to poore men as you may yea to vs nowe also aswell as to your selfe and them in those times Where you say pag. 29. That since that time we are conuicted by the scriptures If you meane some fewe that here and there you could pick out and doe sinne still speake to them threaten them throwe out your damnatorie sentence against them But smite not all whosoeuer comes neare you Beware howe you iudge least you be iudged The heart belongeth to God therefore censure not euerie mans conscience too hastilie 4 Fourthlie you would prooue in your Third Exception before noted pag. 29. That both the breach of the First commaundement and of the Second also is forbidden I haue tolde you before pag. 32 33. howe it is true and howe not Nothing at all to serue your turne That which you say pag. 30. touching your first scripture 2. Cor. 6.14 2 Cor. 6.14 c. in that sence and maner as I suide is true and not otherwise That which of your Second scripture Ezek. 43.8 pag. ibid. you say Ezek. 43. â— Who seeth not but it speaketh
not your Assumption but that which I had made briefer conteyning the effect of yours This was the Assumption denyed by me But a Galatian is a false christian As he that hath but halfe an eye may see Secondly to cease needles strife I deny therefore your Proposition Though a Galatian * that is So holding it as the worst did or els this is a sophisticall Equi uocation holding circumcision cannot bee a true Christian yet an English Christian holding the Hyerarchie c. may The Reason of this denyall I gaue you then but that you would not see it Namelie because such Galatians held Iustification by the works and ceremonies of the Law Gal. 5.3.4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Act. 15.1 Like the Papistes who by their ceremoniall and morall workes doe hold the same and so doe erre Fundamentally But our Churches and state hold not the Hyerarchie so but only as an indifferent thing in it selfe This blasphemous opinion of Circumcision maketh it infinitelie worse though once it was ordeined of God then our indifferent opinion of the Hyerarchie though in deed it were neuer but nought Thirdlie and lastlie you haue no where cleared Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer the rest of those holy Martirs from being abolished from Christ if the Hyerarchie be simply worse then Circumcision so hold as those Galatians did hold Gal. 5.2 3 4 5. Maister IOHNSONS IIII. Reason against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same REASON IIII. THe doctrines of faith conteyned in that Booke alleadged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still executs or ioyne vnto the Ministerie of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Jesus Christ 2. Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or ioyne vnto the Ministerie and worship of the man of sinne the couert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ. H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. Reason is Mahomets Ministerie and Antichristes Ministerie are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot saue a man that ioyneth also to Mahomets Ministerie Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot saue a man that ioyneth also to Antichristes Ministerie which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equiuocation as wee call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie haue a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichristes assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches The I graunt your whole argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolishing vs from Christ true But that we doe so in England which comes in the conclusion Or that any Christian amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterlie deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2. Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie som outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutely deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioyned with the good doctrines of that our Booke doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie As before was shewed in the Second Exception F. JOHNSON his Defence of his 4. Reason HEre the light of the trueth doeth so dazell the Answerers eyes as he freelie confesseth he can not denie any whit of our Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is hee sayth an equiuocation in it and therefore he will distinguish But First wee tell him there is no equiuocation at all in the words but they are al plain to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore his distinction heere is idle friuolous Yet see also betweene what things he doeth distinguish Forsooth betwene the whole function and exercise of publique worship perfourmed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and betwene the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction touching the matter in hande For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Anticristian accursed before God aswell as the rest of their worship and seruice Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the argument here is not of whatsoeuer thing is vsed among the Turkes and Papistes but of the Ministerie and worship which they haue deuised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministerie retey ned among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall gouernement cannons proceedings c. All which in the church of England are taken out of * Reu. 17.4 5 2. Thes 2.3 4 7 8 9 10 11 12. that golden cuppe of abominations whereby Antichrist That man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken as may appeare by cōparing their Pontificalls Canons and constitutions togeather If this man will needes be otherwise minded then let him proue the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Jesus Christ. Furthermore also marke here that he graunteth the doctrine of faith conteyned in their booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian that holdinge them doth withall receiue and ioyne vnto the publike worship perfourmed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This he saith he graunteth as most true Wherevpon it followeth euen by his owne confession First that such thingh then may be ioyned with the doctrines of faith receiued among them as they in such estate cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truthes which they holde be auaylable to them Secondlie that therefore the Proposition of his First and mayne Argument is not generall but admitteth limitation so his greatest defence is of no weight as before is shewed in the beginning in our answere to that Proposition Thirdlie that his answere to our Seconde Exception before alleadged is of no force howsoeuer heere and euery where he referre vs to it For which also we referre the Reader to that which is saide in that place in defence of the Exception aforesaid As also for the allegation of 2 Cor. 6.14 vnto that which is said concerning it in defence of our First Reason before alleadged H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 4. Reason IN this your defence of your 4. Reason you renewe your Sophistrie And that which is worse you wil not be tolde of it Is it because of the goodnes of your Reason that I denie no Proposition Nay it is for the badnes of it because all is nought all
papistes religion which make them in their estate to be departers frō the faith and consequentlie false christians and false Churches If there be as he can not denie it then of what weight is his answer to defende the present constitution of these people and assemblies for whom he pleadeth seeing there are diuers other thinges besides these that doe and may cause that they may not be deemed true Christiās or true Churches in that estate Many a Seruetus Sabellius Arius the Anabaptistes c. heretikes heretofore haue and at this day doe reiect these three aforesaid are they therfore in their estate to be accounted true Christians or true Churches So then his manner of reasoning heere for their defence is as if the Adulterers to iustifie their course of life should alleadge thus We are noe 1. Blaspemers 2. no Persecutors 3. No Murtherers as such and such are therefore we departe not from the way of life but our estate and course of life is good and such as may be continued in But the scripture teacheth otherwise sayinge b Iam. 2.10.11 Whosoeuer shall keepe the whole Lawe and yet fayleth in one poincte is guiltie of all For he that sayed Thou shalt not commit adulterie saied also Thou shalt not kill Nowe though thou doest no adultery yet if thou killest thou art a transgressour of the Lawe and contrariwise So that what soeuer sinnes the Adulterer be farre from yet as c Pro. 6.32 Salomon saith Hee that committeth adulterie with a woman fayleth in heart and destroyeth his owne soule The same is the case of all spirituall Adulterers likewise who what so euer sinnes they be farre from yet in the worship of God runne a d Num. 15.39 whoring after their owne inuentions e Pro. 5.20 embracing the bosomes of strange women f Reuel 17.4 drinking of their cup of fornications Thirdly let him shewe vs sufficient warrant frō the scriptures why setting these three aside the other popish Hyerarchie and abominations receyued amongst them can not bee iudged to make them in such estate departers from the faith and therfore false Christians and false Churches whatsoeuer truthes they should hold beside If he cannot as who seeth not that it can not be donne then by this also it appeareth that his answer◠here is of no force for defence of their estate but against it as we haue declared before g Num. 16.12 c. Corah Dathan Abyram and their partakers were farre from the Abominations of the Heathen they helde also al the poinctes of faith that Moses and Aaron held differing onely from them and departing only from the faith in a matter concerning the Priesthood whereof also they h verse the. 3. shewed their reasons why they were so perswaded yet will he not denie we suppose but that they departed from the faith and were in this estate neither to be accounted true Israelits nor their assemblies true Churches with which communion might be kept If he should the scripture it selfe would witnesse against him herein Numb 16.26 Nowe compare case with case and tyme with tyme and the estate of these people and Assemblies of England wil bee found farre more grieuous as we haue already shewed both in the defence of our Second Exception before and in i In the answer to Master Hildersam and in the 9. Reasons concerning not hearing the Ministers of these assembties other Treatises to which yet we haue receiued no answer To conclude this poinct if their Abominations in England were farre fewer then they are yet so longe as they reteyne that poysonfull leauen of their Hyerarchie and worship wee must tell them as the Scripture saith and experience teacheth That “ 2. Kings 4.39.40 a litle poyson bringeth death vnto the whole pot of pottage A * 1. Cor. 5.6 litle leauen leaueneth the whole lump And a “ Eccle. 10.1 few dead flyes cause the oynctment of the Apothecarie to stinke and putrifie Although indeed their abominations are not a few but swarme in aboundance amongst them some whereof wee haue rehearsed before in the defence of our First Reason where the Reader may take a view of them Now in the next place fearing belike that the euidence of the scripture we alleadged could not by these shiftes of his be auoyded but that still the reason deducted from thence stood strong against them as we haue shewed it doeth therefore he would haue vs now passe by them and not apply this scripture to them Nota. or their mother Church of Rome but vnderstand it of Martion the heretike and Tatianus of whom he saith that they absolutelie condemning mariage and certen meates might indeed euen therin wholie fall from the faith somewhat like to Baalam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for hauing their consciences conuicted and seared with an whote iron And thus sayth he are they in no comparison with them of England Well But first if his former answer were of any weight it might be asked why then the followers of Martion and Tatianus might not likewise haue defended them thus said that their departure from the faith was but in some poincts not wholy from all Secondly we answer that if this scripture was verified as he graunteth in Martion and Tatianus for their condemning of mariage and meates then we must needes also thinke it verified in the Romishe whoore and her apostate children whiche are falne into the verie sinnes that are heere mentioned Teh Apostle mentioneth Martion and Tatianus no more then he doeth the whoorish Babilon and the children of her Fornication but comprehendeth heere all such who so euer they be as shall fall into this Apostasie Nowe moreouer if the “ 1. Tim. 4.1 2 3. wordes of this scripture be duely weighed either other scriptures or the estate of the Romish Harlott and her children compared therewith it wil be founde as liuely to describe these as either Martion or any other that euer were in the world First when the Apostle sayeth that this shal be in the latter tymes who seeth not that it doeth most directly poinct at the Romish whoore though we doubt not but Martion also and Tatianus which liued twelue hundreth yeares since or thereabouts may also be comprehended therein Secondly when it is saide they shall departe from the faith thereby signifying that once they held the faith howe plaine is this of the Romish harlot which in the “ Rom. 1.7 Apostles time was the beloued spouse of God and since is falne into Apostacy and become the Mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth as the * 2. Thes 2.3 and Reu. 17.1 2 3 4 5. scriptures in other places witnesseth Thirdly whē it is said they shall giue heede to spirits of errour and doctrines of Deuils how fitly agreeth this to the Romish Babilon which as the scripture els “ Reu. 18.2 where testifieth is become the habitation of Deuils
they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * Notwithstanding they are too many already more as they are Thus they may see how they haue all this while ben deceiued and are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That euery error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from saluation in Christ Then should they condempne themselues vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfection which surely though I thinke they hold it not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condempning others so peremtorily that iump not euen with them in euery poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not a like Me thinkes then that they should affoard that fauour to others which they would haue others to offoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errours which they must acknowledge * Psal 19.12 1. Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite manie in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which euen common sence and humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their mindes I will a little turne my speech vnto them And I would pray them to call to minde the manie errors and corruptions which they beare with amonge themselues and lay them and the errors with vs togeather and they shall see their equalitie Some of you hold it vtterly and simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to proue a will take an administration or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes and Festiuall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these thinges altogeather lawfull and haue and doe put them in practise with manie other such like thinges which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would from hence note is this Can you among your selues beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inuentions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the †I would you knew the marks of the Beast a little better marks of the Beast * Reu. 14. which who soeuer receiueth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God and shal be tormented in Hell fier for euer And will not your stumackes serue you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in farr lesser matters What equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most parte so wholly giuen and bend your wits and mindes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to thē As you sildome or neuer look into your own estate or apply the scripturs to your selues But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may see thē by your own practize all errors are not alike But yet will some say Obiection are not all the scriptures and commaundements of God fundamentall and to be obeyed alike c. Answer Let such consider of this scripture 1. Cor. 3.12.15 amongst many other which plainly proueth that many errors so they be not of obstinacie may be built by a Christian vpon the fundation Christ Iesus and yet be a true Christian still For which see further Maister Iacobs answer in Pag. 88. Againe there are errors simply fundamentall which of their owne nature cleane abolish from Christ such are the errors of the Arians concerning the Deitie of Christ of the Anabaptists concerning his humanitie of the Papists concerning Iustification by workes praying to and trusting in Saincts and such like which directly raze the very foūdation But that any one or all of the errors in the Churches of England are of this force as you would seeme to hold by all your 9. Reasons is most impious and vngodly to affirme And as Maister Iacob very well noteth in his answer to euery one of them You thereby ouerthrow the Martirs in Queene Maries dayes from being Christians who held the very same corruptions in their ministerie worship c. which is now held in England But say you the Martirs saw no further Then you confesse against your selues that our errors doe not simply abolish from Christ as you euery where affirme most vngodly especially in defence of your 7. Reason But that if men in these things see no further they are in the same estate with the Martirs Now if you would haue your Reasons hould you must proue the Churches of England all conuicted in cōscience which I hope you will not goe about to doe Thus much concerning the nature of our errors whether they be of obstinacie or against the fundation directly Which is the Second note I desire to be obserued 3 Thirdly I would desire the Reader to obserue the wresting and misaplying of certen places of scripture which partly in this Treatise and also in other their wrytings they alleadge for their absolute and peremptory separation from the Churches of England which I haue thought not a misse here to sett downe that thereby the Reader and them selues vpon better consideration of the ende and scope of the holy Ghost in these places may see how they wrest and misapply them cleane contrary from the true and naturall sence thereof The scriptures which they alleadge for their separation are these Then the sonnes of God saw the daughters of men Gen. 6.2 Yee shall keepe therefore all mine ordinances and all my iudgments and doe them that the land whether I bring you to dwell therein spew you not out therefore shall ye bee holy vnto mee for I the Lord am holy and I haue separated you from other people that you should be mine Leu. 20.22.26 So the children of Israell which were come againe out of captiuitie and all such as had separated themselues vnto them from the filthines of the Heathen of the land to seeke the Lord God of Israell did eate c. Ezra 6.21 Departe departe yee goe out from thence and touch no vncleane thinge goe out of the middest of her be ye cleane that beare the vessels of the Lord Esa 52.11 Fly from the middest of Babell and departe out of the land of the Caldeans Ier. 50.8 And Fly out of the middest of Babell and deliuer euery man his soule from the fierce wrath of the Lorde Ier. 51.6.45 Come not yee to Gilgall neither goe ye vp to Bethauen Hos 4.15 Come to Bethell and transgresse and to Gilgall and multiply transgression c. Seeke not Bethellner enter into Gilgall and goe not to Beersheba Amos. 4.4.5 Saue your selues from this froward generation Act. 2.40 And when certen were hardned and disobeyed speaking euell of the way of god before the multitude
and thus we practise and wee are perswaded no Scripture to be against all this but rather for it I speake now concerning our Ministers and Congregations generally that is our publike Church state If yow say but there are diuers amongest vs that thinke otherwise I answere But this is the generall estate both of our Ministers and Churches howsoeuer one or two amongest hundreths or thousands may thinke otherwise shew the contrary if you can And our Churches they certenly must bee deemed after their generall estate and constitution not as one or two men thinke If you say this generall opinion and practize is an error Therefore they obey not Christs ordinances in truth herein though they thinke they doe I answere let it be so it is now * An error though not foundamētall the error of their iudgment as it was in Maister Cranmer Ridley c. Not pregnaunt rebellion and disobedience to Christe not a conuicted or seared conscience so that their other “ 1. Cor. 3.12 15. truthes of the foundation are not frustrat nor Christ made to none effect in thē And this is all our questiō Whether they remaine Christians still for all these faultes yea or no. F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 2. Excep COncerning our Second Exception it was propounded by way of demaund requiring that they would shewe vs if they held Jesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest King of his Church to be obeyed in his own ordinances onely and in no other howe then their practize agreeth with this profession One would haue thought that here it had bene good and needfull if they could to haue cleared this poinct by the Scriptures and the Testament of Christ and from thence to haue manifested that their Ministerie worship ministration gouernement c. which are called in questiō are no other then the Lord Iesus Christ that Prophet Priest and King of his Church hath in his Testament giuen and appointed therevnto And haue they not done this Surely no. What then doe they say First they tell vs That touching this poinct their profession and practize nowe is so as before time it was with M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer and their Cogregations But what of this Can the persons or age of thes whom he nameth nay can anie person or ages preiudice the trueth Were not they subiect to error at all or must their errors binde vs Did not Iohn Hus that worthy champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs in former times say and heare Masse euen to their dying day not seeing the abomin ations thereof And did not diuers of thē acknowledge some the Popes calling and Supremacie some 7. Sacramentes some Purgatorie some Auricular confession and such like greeuous errours c And yet notwithstanding dyed most constantly for the truethes which they sawe and testified some for one and some for another as God manifested the trueth vnto them As may be seene at large in their seueral Histories in the Actes and Monumentes whether wee referre the Reader But may we nowe so professe and practize in these things as they did Or if we should were their ignorance and errours a sufficient defence for vs yet thus would this man beare vs in hande But moreouer let him tell vs if Maister Latimer and others did not forsake the Prelacie and functions they had before-time receyued And Maister Ridley at his death repent that he had bene so earnest for the remnantes of Poperie in his time retayned Besides also who knoweth not that when Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. dyed Martyrs for the trueth of Christ they neither had them selues nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacie and Manisterie nowe pleaded for And not that onely but were also members of that persecuted church in Queene Maries dayes which was separated from the rest of the Lande as from the world and ioyned in couenaunt by voluntarie profession to obey the trueth of Christ and to witnes against the abominations of Antichrist As they also did euen vnto death in the trueth which they sawe though otherwise being but as it were in the twylight of the Gospell they had their wantes and errors Yet who is so blinde or besotted as not to see that their errours may not bee our rules neither can be our warrant but rather that we ought after their example faithfully to stand in and for what so euer trueth God reuealeth vnto vs by his word And that otherwise those holy Martyrs should rise in iudgement against all such as either withhould the trueth in vnrighteousnesse or in any respect refuse to walke therein Finally seeing GOD hath giuen vs his worde to be the light of our feete and rule of our liues and religion What meane these men to lead vs from it to the aberrations of any men whatsoeuer Should not all people enquire at God or would they haue vs goe from the liuing to the dead From God and his worde to men and their errours Doubtlesse this is that whervnto they would bring vs and whereby they mislead their followers as will yet further appeare by that which followeth For what say they next Secondly they tell vs and they wishe it to bee noted as wee also doe That Christes ordinances be of two sortes either written or vnwritten the first necessarie the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion onely these say they are written the second touching outward orders in the Church and all outward gōuernement and ceremonies These they say are not written but arbitrary at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate Thus they say they hold and practise and thinke no Scripture is against it In answere whereof First we aske what scripture they haue for this Secondly we alleadge against it the scriptures “ 1 Tim. 3.10 15. 5. chap. 6.13.14 Tit. 1.5 c. Act. 1.3 2.40 c. 6. cap 14.23 15. cap. and 19.9 20.7.17.28 Rō 12.6.7.8 Ephe 4 11.12 1 Thes 5.12.13.14 Phil. 1.1.5 Heb. 3.1.2.3 13.17 Iam. 5.14 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3 1 Cor. 4.17 5. cap. 9. cap 11. cap. 12. cap. 14. cap. and 16.1.2 Gal. 6 1.6.2 Thes 3.6.12.14.15 Mat. 18 15.16 17. 28.18.19.20 quoted in the margent wherevnto manie other might be added Thirdlie let it be obserued that them selues here graunt and can not denie but all the outwarde gouernement and ceremonies of their Church are inuented and arbitrary at the pleasure of man and not written in the worde of God Wherevpon it followeth that they are none of Christes and therefore not to be ioyned vnto in the worship of God as afterwards more fully will appeare Fourthlie see howe neare they are driuen that are glad to runne backe into the Papistes tentes where yet they knowe there is no succour Before they pleaded possession time out of minde nowe they tell vs of ordinances vnwritten c. are not these meere
popish shiftes euen the olde worne argumentes of antiquitie and vnwritten verities so often and so much stoode vppon by the Papistes Alas that these men should plead to be true Christians and yee thus openly take parte with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and will verifie his word where he saieth That they which receyue not the loue of the trueth that they may bee saued hee will sende them stronge delusions to beleeue lyes that they may bee damned Fiftly note howe he maketh the ordinances touching outwarde gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither writtē at all Surelie this is strange diuinitie It is an ordinance not onely concerning the inward but also the outward gouernment of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof It is therefore no matter of faith It cōcerneth the outward gouernment whether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the church or no Doeth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the Word and hearing of it preached administration and receyuing of the Sacraments are matters concerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church doe they not therefore touch faith Admonition and exhortation concerne also the outwarde gouernement of the Church doe they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this diuinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lordes supper being ceremonies shal be no matters of faith at all amongst them But here they stay not but adde moreouer That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church bee arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate and not certen nor written in the booke of God Whervpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or of Cāterburie be head and Archbishop of the Church of God Whether Jewes onely of the tribe of Leui may nowe minister the holy things of God in his Church Whether Christ haue giuen any giftes and set any offices in his Church for the Ministerie and guidance thereof Whether prayer must bee in a knowne or vnknowne tounge Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored Whether the church may excommunicate Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunication be to be regarded Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacramentes Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other ceremonies and sacrifices of the Lawe be now to be vsed Whether the Heathenishe sacrifices and worship be to bee ioyned withall Whether creame oyle salt spitle crossing and coniuring be to be vsed in Baptisme Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to bee giuen to the lay people as they call them Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the church Whether the Iewish and Popish vestimentes fastes and holy dayes are to be obserued and a thousande such like which are all of them concerning the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church By these mens Diuinitie these and infinite such like are vnwritten and vncerten but left onely to the pleasure of the Church and Magistrate Moreouer if it please them the Princes and ciuill Magistrates may them selues be the publike ministers of the worde Sacraments and censures of the Church any that will may without a calling take vpon him to bee a publique officer in the church Women may baptise or administer the Lords supper The Jewishe Romish or Heathenish priesthood may be retayned Auricular confession may be vsed The Keyes of the kingdome of heauen may bee appropriated to the Pope of Rome or the Prelate of Canterburie or any other whom soeuer The Prelates and their Officials excommunications do binde in heauen The Apochriphall bookes and Decretall epistles are canonicall scriptures The Papes Portuis and the English booke of prayer taken out of it are the true and lawfull worship of God The Prelates and Priestes are the true and lawfull Ministers of God Orders pennaunce extreame vnction matrimonie c. are the Sacramentes of the Church Cap Surplis Cope Tippit Rotchet c. are ornamentes of the Ministerie Finally all ragges and trumperies of the Romish religion are good and lawfull if it please the Church and Magistrate For why They concerne the outward gouernement orders and ceremonies of the church And touching them say these men Christ hath not left any ordinances written certen or perpetuall but left them at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate Is not this straunge Diuinitie Yet they stay not there neither but as men that haue bent their tongues like bowes for lyes they feare not to adde moreouer that when the Church and Magistrate appointeth anie ordinances whether these or any other touching the outward gouernement ceremonies of the Church we are to account them to be Christes owne ordinances who hath left this libertie to the Church for to vse O shameles mouth O vnchristian hart Can any Papist or Atheist say more or can any desire a more euident proof then this that these men and assemblies thus holding professing and practizing as here them selues affirme can not in this estate by the word of God be deemed med true Christians and Churches Sixtly obserue howe yet moreouer they seeke shiftes would colour the matter pretending That the things which concerne outward gouernement and ceremonies are not of the foundation simply But this will helpe them no more then the other For first we aske are they of the foundation at all though not simply If they be then seeing they are not written not certen nor perpetuall as heere is affirmed it will followe that neither the whole foundation is written certen or perpetuall neither the Apostles were faithfuull and skilsull maister builders in the laying thereof If they be not then why is this worde simplie added as if they graunted that they were of the foundation though not simplie as they speake Secondlie wee aske whether the outwarde gouernement and ceremonies ordeyned by Christ for his church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation asmuch as the outward gouernement and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the law Or if they be whether they are not as faithfully sett downe by Christ as the other were by Moses and as carefully to be obserued by vs as the other were by the Jewes Heb. 3.2.3 or rather much more inasmuch as Christ the Son is worthy more glorie and honour then Moses the seruant Thirdlie we aske what foundamentall poinctes Moses and Aaron with the rest of the Iewes ioyning with them helde that Corah Dathan Abiram and their companions held not Differing from them and erring only touching the Priesthood and Ministerie which concerned the outward orders gouernement of the Church was therefore Corah Dathan Abiram and their companies in that estate the true Jsraell of God Or were not the other truthes they helde by this meanes frustrate and of none effect
vnto them Nay were they not therefore wholy to be separated from and left to the iudgement of God Num. 16. which ouertooke them and all that ioyned vnto them Yet was their error onely in matters of order and outward gouernement of the Church This may suffize to conuince the aduersaries vntrue assertions in this place To that of Maister Cranmer and Ridley c. is answered before For conclusion therefore this we adde concerning this poinct That all such assemblies and people as holde professe and practise as doth the Church of England these abominations following They can not by the word of God be esteemed in such estate trulie to holde Christ their Prophet Priest and King Towit The confusion of all sortes of people though neuer so wicked and their seed in the body of the Church The offices and callings of other Archb. and Lordb. then Iesus Christ also of Archdeacons Chancellors Commissaries Officials Priestes halfe Priestes Parsons Vicars Vagrant and Mercinarie Preachers c. The entrance into the Ministerie by an other way and by other Lord then Iesus Christ The executing of it vnder those strange Lords leauing it at their pleasure The preaching of the word administration of the Sacramentes and gouerning of the Church by vertue of the offices and callings afore said according to the Popish Canons and constitutions The power of Excommunication in the Prelates alone and their Officialls The confounding of Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices and authoritie in the Ministers of the Church The forbidding of Mariage at certen seasons The imposing and vsing of stinted deuised Liturgies The English Portuis taken out of the Popes latine word for worde saue that a fewe of the grosest thinges are left out yet keeping the same frame and order of Collectes Psalmes Lessons Pater nosters Pistles Gospels Versicles Respondes c. Appointing holy dayes to all Sainctes and Angels to the Virgin Marie Iohn Baptist Marke Luke and twelue Apostles seuerallie togeather with Fastes on the Eaues and on Ember dayes Fridayes Satterdayes Lent Prescribing the Ministers to pray ouer the dead ouer the Corne and Grasse at some seasons of the yeere and ouer Women at their Courching or purification Ioyninge them also to marie with the Ring which they make a sacramentall signe And to Baptise likewise with the signe of the Crosse with Godfathers and Godmothers with questions demanded of the infant that can not speake nor vnderstande Giuing power to Women to baptise And ordeyning that the other Sacrament of the Lords Supper be celebrated kneeling as when they receyue their maker and with change of the wordes of Christes institution taking in steed of them the wordes of the Popes Masse booke translated into English c. Finallie the vpholding of these and all such amongst them onely by carnall weapons of imprisonment death confiscation of goods banishment and such like The assemblies I say and people which holde professe and practize as doeth this Church of Englande the abominations afore said concerning the outward order and gouernement of the Church what soeuer truethes they holde besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest and King in such constitution of a church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the word of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted churches of Christ this is the question betweene vs and our aduersaries 7. Lastlie let the godlie and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not followe vppon this answere in this place First that the a Contrarie to 1. Tim. 3.15 2. Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1. Corin. 4.6 Reu. 22.18 19 Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Secondlie that the b Contrarie to the 2. Tim. 3.17 with 1. Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.13 men of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fullie furnished to euery good worke Thidlie that c Contrarie to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1 2 3. Esay 32.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1. Cor. 11. and 12. and 14. Rom. 12.3 4 5 6 7 8. Mat. 28.20.1 Tim. 6.13 14. Christ him selfe in whom the treasures of wisedome and knowledge are hid yet was so foolishe carelesse and vnfaithfull as hauing an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it anie offices lawes and orders for the due gouerning and ordering thereof Finallie That the d Contrarie to the 2. Cor. 6.14 15 16. Psal 94.20 119.21.113.128 Reu. 9.1 2 3 and 14.9 10 11. Hierarchie Worship Sacramentes Traditions Canons and whatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outward orders and gouernement of the church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes owne ordinances O shameles impietie Doubtles this is that same strange passion and meere desperatnes wherewith afterwarde vniustlie they charge vs which we will not prosecute as it deserueth but exhort them onely to take heede least that woe come vppon them whiche is written Woe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darknes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter Woe vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esa 5.20.21 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 2. Except IN this your defence of your secōd Exception it pitieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and if we professe to obey him in his own ordinances and in no other I answered we doe constantly prosesse so and as we professe so wee practise But to make our profession practize in this poinct more manifest I noted how our stare meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and how hee is to be obeyed viz. That the written word ought of necessitie to shew vs our inward and meare spirituall beleif obedience As for the outward Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to bee appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no where forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication two thinges First it is foule wrong to our Churches and to my wordes to say as you doe That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it was neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though externall yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangable by the Scriptures My expresse wordes and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our only and absolute King Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth
theirs did not And that I trust is sound Which thing also you might haue remembred if you had ben so charitable by that which I wrote in “ In the next treatise following of the cōparison of the Ministery with Mariage Ans to your first Reason another place Then in your first answer Pag. 14. Howe vainely doe yow aske vs for Scriptures to proue those orders seing I expresly called them errors The like in your Second wher you load vp Scriptures to disproue thē Also Thirdlie you charge an vnconscionable vntruth on mee if you meane this answere vnto me that I should graunt and cannot deny that all outward ceremonies and gouernement are arbitrary at mans pleasure I onelie said that our state holdeth that generall opinion Not that I my selfe held it If you meane them write to them and speake to them if you meane me you doe me foule iniurie Fourthly whether they are Popish shiftes or no let our state which mainteyneth these things answer you Your Fift is answered in the first poinct of my explication noted before pag. 19. To your Sixt in pag. 16. wee aunswered before in the Second poinct of my explication pag. 19. Your Seuenth in pag. 18. is also against the state of our Church and not against me Maister IOHNSONS 3. Exception against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same EXCEPTION 3. THirdlie let them shew by the Scriptures howe the 36. Article of their doctrine booke alleadged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The words of the Article are these as followeth The Booke of consecrating of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priestes and Deacons doth conteyne all thinges necessarie to such consecration and ordering neyther hath it any thing that of it selfe is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoeuer are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that booke we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Moreouer how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That Apocripha bookes and the booke of Homilies be read in the church by the Ministers diligentlie and distinctlie As is in Art 6. and 35. of that doctrine and booke aforesaid H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocripha bookes and Homelies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the whole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I answer you should haue said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Else the Argument followeth not But then we deny flatly the Antecedent or first part of the reason But your Reason you will say shall goe as you haue put it Then marke these reasons euen as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is white of his teeth therefore he is a white man A Swanne is black of his bill therefore a Swanne is black My brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a wodden legge therfore my brother is no true man F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 3. Excep OVr third Exception was this Whereas they referred vs to their booke of Artieles 1562. were quired that they should shew by the Scriptures how the 36. Article there mentioned which is of the booke of consecrating Archbiships and Bishops and of ordeyning Priests and Deacons And howe also the 6. and 35. Articles of that booke enioyning the Apocripha bookes and Homilies to bee read in the Church by the Ministers distinctlie and diligentlie Howe these J say doe agree with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitis Now I pray you haue they shewed vs these things by the Scriptures as we desired nothing lesse First therefore marke this heere and euerie where also in their reasons and answeres that though wee call neuer so much to them for proofe and euidence from the Scriptures yet they neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shiftes deuices of their owne As if our consciences were to be built vpon their fancies and not vppon the written worde of God But what doe they say to our demaund First they tell vs These thinges doe not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Secondly they graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as blacke doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this their similitudes doe import Nowe whereas they alleadge That these thinges destroy not true Christianitie We answere That euen that Hyerarchie worship constitution and gouernement which they professe and practize as appeareth by those and other their Articles and iniunctions in our former answere alleadged to which yet we haue receyued no aunswere being directly Antichristian doe * Nota vtterlie destroy true Christianitie so as the people and Churches so professing and practizing can not in that estate by the worde of God be iudged true Christians or the true constituted Churches of Christ. And touchinge the similitudes here vsed besides that which we haue noted before we adde moreouer that they are not against vs but against them selues in asmuch as comparing the doctrines of the Gospell which they professe with the whitenes of an Aethiopians teeth And their Antichristian Ministerie Worshop courtes and confusion of people with the blackenes of an Aethiopians body This and such like similitudes doe fitlie declare their estate And the approouing of the black constitution of their church Assemblies by some white doctrines of the Gospell which they professe Is euen as if they should reason thus An Aethiopian is white of his teeth therefore he is a white man A blacke Rauen is white of his bill Therefore a blacke Rauen is a white bird H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 3. Exception YOur Third Exception is That the 16. Article of cōsecrating Bishops Priests and the 6. and 35. Artic of Apocripha and Homelies doe not agree with the Gospel What then Ergo our Churches profession and practize differ Most false For our Churches doe professe that these things doe agree with Gospell well enough Also their practise is thereafter Or doe you conclude Ergo our Churches holde not Christ to saluation In deede so I tooke your purpose at the first but nowe in plaine categoricall termes you auouch it That these things being directlie Antichristian doe vtterlie destroy true Christianitie So then Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. were verie Antichristes and no true Christians As before also I trowe you affirmed Surely this grosse and wicked absurditie I could not open better then by this similitude This man hath a wodden legge an eye of glasse his nose deformed adde if you will both his armes not naturall but framed to him of wood or what you will Ergo this is no true man Yes Sir for all this he is a true man For as much as all this concernes not the verie life and being of a man though
Thirdly as the Pagans Idolatrie breaking the First commaundement cannot stand with true christian faith so neither can the idolatrie and false worship of Antichrist breaking the seconde To that of Maister Cranmer c is alreadie answered in pag. 13. wherevnto may bee added that their case nowe is nothing so as theirs was then both for that they suffered to death for the trueth which they sawe And because the things nowe controuerted were not then so called into question and conuinced against them by the scriptures as nowe they haue ben against these neither were then by them so resisted and persecuted as they are by these men now adayes euen vnto bandes bannishment and death it selfe Otherwise we might iustifie the callings and estate of the Monkes and Fryars and of the most Popish Priestes and Prelates and the hauing communion with them in that estate because diuers such haue ben Martirs and layd downe their liues for the trueth which they sawe who yet neuer doubted of the lawfulnes of their callings and estate in this behalfe which then were not so called into question nor convinced by the scriptures to bee vnlawfull as since they haue bene 4. Fourthlie as there is a double Jdolatrie and false worship the one against the First commaundement when any haue others besides the true God for their God the other against the Second commaundment when anie hauing the true God for their God yet worship him not as hee hath commaunded but after the inventions and prescriptions of men So also these scriptures alleadged and the whole course of the word of God condempneth the ioyning and hauing fellowship with either of these aswell this which is against the Second commaundement as that whiche is against the First See the Reasons alleadged by the Apostle * 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Are they not stronge and weightie against ioyning togeather righteousnes and vnrighteousnes light and darknesse Christ and Beliall whether it be in the breach of the First or Second commaundement Saieth not the Lord there That his Church is his Temple in which he dwelleth and Walketh and therefore requireth of them that they be his people his sonnes and daughters separated from the world and touching no vncleane thing whether it be of Antichrist against the Second or of the Heathen against the First commaundement Ezech. 43.8 And touching the place of Ezekiell who seeth not that he speaketh directlie of the breach of the Second commandement in ioyning togeather in the worship of the true God their thresholdes with Gods thresholds and their postes with Gods postes that is their inuentions with Gods ordinances which though it bee done to the name and for the seruice of the true God yet sayth the Prophet Jt is abomination in the sight of God and they that doe so worship him set a wall betweene God them selues and defyle his holy Name with their abominations Loe here the vse and fruict of ioyning togeather the inuentions of men chieflie of Antichrist that man of sinne with the ordinances of God in his worshipp and seruice As Maister Iacob and his complices like this so let them holde on in pleading for it and practizing of it The third place alleadged is out of 2 King 17. where also it is most plaine 2 King 17. that the scripture speaketh of the breach of the Second cōmaundement For there is set down that the Samaritans worspipped the b Vers 28.32 41. same God and after c Vers 26.27 29 33 34 40. the same manner that the Israelites of the Tenne Tribes did that were carryed from thence That is they worshipped the b Vers 28.32 41. true God but c Vers 26.27 29 33 34 40. not as hee had commaunded but by hauing Images of sundrie sortes by whiche they thought God was represented as d Exod. 32 4. of olde they thought of the calfe that Aaron made and by other inuentions deuised by the Israelites in their defection and ioyned to Gods ordinances for the worship and seruice of him That this was the sinne of those Samaritans against the Second commandement will appeare by cōparing togeather with this chapter these scriptures following to which we referre the Reader Ezra 4.1 2. with Exod. 20.4 5 6. and 32.1 4 5 6. Jug 17.2 3 4 5 13 Ezek 20.39 Hosea 2.16 Amos 5.21 22 23. 8.14 1 Kings 12.27 and 18.21 and 21.29 and 22.12 24. Esay 10.11 Iohn 4.19 20 25 26 29 30. By these also as by that of Ezekiell likewise may appeare howe false it is that hee further saith They did not so much as professe the written law to be their rule neither for outwarde order nor their inwarde doctrines of faith Jf this were so howe could it bee true which Ezechiell sayeth of them of whom he speaketh that they set their postes and threshalls by Gods postes and Treshalls that is their inuentions by Gods ordinances Howe also was it that the Samaritans spoken of 2 King 17. sacrificed to the true God euen the Lord God of the Iewes offering vnto him burnt offringes and meate offringes and peace offringes Or howe came it that they still vsed circumcision and weyted for the Messias to come as he was promised in the writen worde of God yea knowing also and beleeuing not onely that the Messias would come which is called Christ but also that when he came he would tell them all things The corinthian infidels in deed as the rest of the Heathen knewe not the true God nor his written worde But it was not so with the Samaritanes or Tenne tribes of Jsraell fallen from Judah as is euident by the scriptures and reasons before alleadged To that which he next addeth to their professiō practise Referring vs to his answere in pag. 11 12 18 to our Second Exception going before wee haue there answered alreadie pag. 12. 13. and will not therfore repeate it Onely this we adde moreouer That seeing the publique constitution of their Assemblies and estate of their Ministers people therein is a most impious transgression of the Second commandement which the Lord himselfe calleth “ Num. 15.39 Reue. 11.8 17.1 2 3 4. spirituall whoredome against him yea grieuous iniquitie and hatred of him threatning †Exod. 20. to visit it vpon the Fathers and children so remayning to the Third and Fourth generation Therefore both by it are the truthes which they professe made frustrate vnto thē in this estate Neither will it helpe them to pretend that it is their error in iudgement For what abomination is there that might not thus be coloured But seeing their publike profession practize is at the best a ioyning of Christ and Antichrist togeather as hath bene shewed before therefore neither can they by the worde of God be deemed in this estate to bee true Christians on true constituted Churches And the Scriptures applyed to proue this consequent are fitlie alleadged as hath bene seene Falsly therefore it is that
directlie of the breach of the Second Commaundment ioyning togeather in the worship of the true God their inueÌ„tions with Gods ordinances I say it is most manifest that he speaketh not of the breach of the Second Commandement onely but also of the first wherein men haue their inuentions also The Prophet sheweth vers 4. and 7. That God returned to his Temple againe whence he was departed for the abominable idolatries that had ben there committed before to shew that he would restore lerusalem and the Temple and worship of God againet He meaneth this literally of the returning of the Iewes after Babilons captiuitie and of the reedifying of the Temple and the appointing againe of Gods holy worship there Also spirituallie he may meane the erecting of the Christian Church wheÌ„ they should not fal to such impieties as the Iewes had done nowe in that time before for the which he had departed away from them Nowe if we aske what were those Idolatours in Ierusalem and in the Temple before Ezekiels time for the whiche the Lord forsooke them it is manifest in Ahas in Manasses and Amon and in the Kings after Iosiah That the Iewes idolatrie was verie Heathenish not onely against the Second but against the First Commandement also in ioyning the Heathen gods with the true God of Izraell in their Diuine seruice and worship Therefore this place of Ezekiell is as I say Not of the breach of the Second commandment onely simplie as our church corruptions are but ioinctlie touching the breach of the First also The verie same is that your Third scripture pag. 30. 2 Kings 17 33 34 40 41 of the Samaritans Idolatrie â— King 17. wherein because you are large I will deferr to explaine it till your Sixt Reason following where is a proper place for it 4 Lastlie in pag. 31. you agrauate the breach of the Second Commandment as being spirituall whordome c. But I would haue you to know Things may be mismatched too cruelly as well as too gentlie There is a sinne both wayes when things are not called by their proper and right names Is it true in some sence euery breach of the Second Commandement is spirituall whordome as euery wanton word euery light gesture and countenance euery immodest thought in a Woman is Adulterie yet who so shall angerlie and continuallie so call a woman whore harlot or baude that but thinketh or looketh or speaketh too vainly shall doe her great wronge and inâ—â—â—â—e the iust daunger of lawe Neither can shee nor ought shee in such case be diuorced as an Adulteresse ought And thus it appeareth 〈◊〉 still that you sinne again stabe Third Commaundment in misapplying of scriptures In the ende in pag. 31. where you saye To the proofe of your Assumption I answere neuer a worde which most of all required answere This I tell you that it is your fancie and not my meaning heere to answere to your Proposition First and then to your Assumption to say nothing Nay if you had not dreamed you might easilie haue perceyued that all my first wordes viz. where I say your speech here is vnproper c. are bent directly against your Assumption and the proofe thereof although at this time I expressed not those termes Secondly I shewe that your scriptures applyed to proue the Proposition are altogither vnfitt and intollerably abused if you meane them in that sence as your Assumption must be meant that is to say as they touch vs. This a verie childe might haue seene Maister Iohnson So that your marginall scoffe at my sound and schollerlike dealing doeth light on your self and bewrayeth eyther your deepe skill or your ouerflowing charitic As for the rest That I should iustifie our corruptions it is no part of my minde neither belongs it to our present cause so to doe Maister IOHNSONS II. Reason against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same REASON II. THat which appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine That cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshiping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proued That which appointeth and ratifieth the worshiping of God by the precepts of man That appoincteth and ratifieth the worshiping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 compared with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Article of the booke alleaged And by their booke of CoÌ„mon prayer their Fastes Feastes Holy dayes c which are executed by their Popish Courts and Officers All which are authorized by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by lawe in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshiping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. JACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifieth the worshiping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third ExceptioÌ„ Pag 22. 2 Also noâ—e I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were theÌ„ of the true visible †Marke his open contrarietie with him self graunting this in Reas 6. Church with whom Christ and his Apostles both in Christes time and after his death did sometimes ioyne and comunicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 2. Reason OVr Second Reason is as you see now what proposition doth he deny Truely none at all What defence bringeth he of their booke of coÌ„mon prayers and the particulers therein Of their Prelacie other Ministerie receiued from them according to their booke and Pontificall Of their Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none What then doth he answere Forsooth he referred vs to his anuswer before in the last exception Whether also we referre the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for aunswer of anie proposition of this argument or for defence of their false worship Praelacie Ministerie and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answere And haue not these men thinke you good proofe for their present estate and Church constitution Which thus leaue it altogeather without defence euen when it most needeth and as it were beg geth their help and succor if they could affoard it anie But now hauing no aunswer to any parte of our argument yet hee bids vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alleaged is verified of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs time and after his death
3 3 11. c. and 17 1 2 3 4 5. and 14.8 9 10 11. the spirituall Babilon notwithstanding any truthes she holdeth yet is so vnsanctifyed and abominable as shee is become a cage of all vncleane and hatefull birdes and that all her children and Marchants that will not departe out of her shall receyue of her plagues and damnation and drinke of the wine of Gods wrath yea of the pure wyne which is powred into the cup of his wrath and be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angells and before the Lamb for euermore Loe here their fearfull estate which this man will needes accompt holy and acceptable before God H. JACOB his 2. Reply to the 5. Reason IN this your defence of your Fifth Reason you mislike that J call it an absurd comparison Where you affirme that the golden vesses of the Jewes were as available to sanctifie the Babilonians as the truthes of the Gospell which wee hold are to sanctifie vs. In deed your owne wordes be holden and receiued in the spirituall Babilon By which termes you meane vs of England I trow But marke sir Is not this grosse sophistery againe Is not this childish vanitie open beggerie and crauing of that which is the whole question that is That our Churches are spirituall Babilon and as deepely infected in Babilonish impietie as those old Caldeans If they were so infected I graunt in deed your Reason would follow But seeing it is the question And seeing we professe our selues true Christians by those truthes of the Gospell which we hold and as by Gods grace we are indeed Say I not well that this is an absurd Comparison Yes Maister Iohnson it is a most * To match those outward vessells of no sanctity of them selues with our inward doctrins of saluation impious absurd sencelesse comparison void of common reason And it inwrappeth Maister Cranmer Maister Ridley c. within the same Iniurions Yea irreligious consequence likewise All that you haue of allusions and alluding betwene the Tipicall and spirituall Babilon are meere delusions and vaine cauils Proue vs first to be spirituall Babilon Or els you fight with your shadow So that still I say those Scriptures quoted of Dan. 5. c. As also all the rest here packed togeather in your Margen they are miserably and desperately abused according as I rightly referred you to my censure to your First Reason which for all your wordes you haue not refuted The very same I say of your other Two scriptures towards the end Pro. 9.17 c. Reu. 18.1 c. As for Ezek. 43.8 I answered it before †Pag. 34. in your First Reason Maister IOHNSONS VI. Reason against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same REASON VI. THe Samaritans those counterfett children of Abraham Jsaack and Iacob did publiquelie professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the trueth of which doctrine howe powerful it was to saluation the Scriptures testifie yet doeth our Sauiour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt worship framed after the inventions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore sayth Christ vnto them Yee worship that which ye knowe not we worship that which we knowe for saluation is of the Iewes By which wordes of Christ it plainely appeareth that although at that time some professed such truthes which otherwise were auaylable vnto saluatiō yet none that were false worshippers of God could truely challendge vnto them selues in such estate the benefite of those truthes but they onely which were the true Church and people of God to whom the Oracles of God were committed and to whom the Couenantes and seruice of God did appertayne such as were at that tyme not the Samaritans but the Jewes and they whiche helde the faith of the Iewes wherevppon not the Samaritanes but the Iewes were then by Christ accounted the true worshippers of GOD and heires of saluation John 4.22 compared with verse 20.25 29. and with 2. King 17 24. In the like manner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies standing subiect to a counterfett Ministerie and worship of God being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are auailable to saluation yet can not in such estate by the word of God he deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto them selues the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto anie false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto anie such his holy things to witt his word prayer Sacramentes Censures c. But he hath made his promise committed these things only to his true Church and people which worship him aright and yeeld obedidience to his Gospell keeping whatsoeuer he hath commaunded them Wherevpon it followeth that such people onely are true Christians and true churches of Christ to whom the promises holy things apperteyne and not to the people and Ecclesiasticall assemblies of England neither anie such abiding in false worship or false constitution of a church as is aforesaide H. JOCOB his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your 6. Reason is The Samaritans beleeuing that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neare saluation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeued according to that Booke of Articles I deny the Proposition The Samaritans might knowe by hearsay and beleeue the Messias should come and Baalam did know it Nom. 24.17 and the Deuils doe now know and beleue Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeued in him It followeth not therefore that they were as nigh saluation as wee of England In a worde there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols with the God of Israel 2. Ki. 17. which wholy destroyed the trueth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Wherfore here take the Second Answer to the First Reason before * Pag. 25. But I will help them with an Obiection surely one fitter then all these Obiection The Isralites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell serued not Pagan Idols but the true God after their own deuises which yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2. King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Howbeit they were false worshippers only for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only for our false Ministerie and outward worship Answere To this wee aunswere also what additions of deuices and how grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the worst is with vs But yet this appeareth cleerelie that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem was the only place and Arons line the
only Priests †My meaning was the Leuits were not of Aarons line but the Priests only Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true worshippers nor within the couenant nor neere to saluation when they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly whom the Lord had so expresly chosen Now our assemblies throughout England haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo wee may be in the coueuant which they were not for all our corruptions F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 6. Reason THis our 6. Reason he neither propounded as we did nor aunswereth directlie and soundlie vnto anie part of it But that the nakednes of his answere and light of the trueth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more shortlie in a Sillogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Couenantes holy things and seruice of God doe not apperteyne they can not in such constitution by the worde of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoeuer truthe they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and assemblies of Englande as vnto them in that estate the Couenauntes holy things seruice of God doe not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoeuer truthes they professe besides The Proposition none will denie The Assumption is proued thus The people and Assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false manner neuer appointed by him self nor approued in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the couenaunts holy things and seruice of God doe not apperteyne But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblies of England as they worship God after a false manner neuer appointed by him selfe nor approued in his word Therefore the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblies of Englande is such as vnto them in that estate the Couenaunts holie things and seruice of God doe not apperteyne The Proposition was proued by the example of the Samaritans and Christes speach and sentence of them in such estate Ioh. 4. and 2 King 17 Whervnto he answereth nothing to anie purpose saue that what he saith is against him selfe For where he graunteth That the Samaritans and Balaam knewe and beleeued the Messias should come yea and that the Deuills knowe and beleeue there is a God and that Iesus is the Christ the holy one of God Who seeth not that most excellent truthes may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe be not therefore in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom the Couenauntes holie things and seruice of God apperteyne Where next he saith The Samaritans beleeued not in the Messias it will be heard for him to prooue it seeing he taketh beleefe in Christ so as it is had in the spirituall Babylon and her daughters and seeing also the Samaritans professed and beleened not onely that the Messiah should come but euen he which is called Christ that when he came he would declare vnto them all things Jn so much as when Jesus was come had spoken but to a woman of Samaria the scripture witnesseth that manie of the Samaritans of that citie beleeued in him for the saying of the woman which testified he hath tolde me all thinges that euer I did Ioan 4.25 26 29 30 39. Thirdly where he saith The Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idolls with the God of Israell which wholy destroyed the trueth in them which they held By this againe it is euident euen in his owne confession Both that such things may be ioyned with the doctrines of trueth as in that estate they which professe those truthes can not be iudged true Christians or true churches to whom the promises and holy things of God doe belong And that therefore also the * See further for the answer of this in Pag. 4. Proposition of his principall and maine Argument first propounded is not generall but of necessitie admitteth limitations So as then his maine defence falleth to the ground as alreadie we haue noted both in the beginning of this writing in the answere to that Proposition afore saide and againe in the defence of our Fourth Reason a little before Moreouer in that he sayeth the Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols with the God of Israell 2. King 17. If he meane that they worshipped the Idols them selues 2. King 17. sacrificing to them and accompting them to be Gods as well as the God of Israell and so brake the First commaundement as before he affirmed in his answere to our First Reason then we take it that here againe hee is deceyued as there we haue shewed The scripture saieth Pag. 30. they worshipped sacrifized to the Lord God of Israell So as their sinne was against the Second commaundement in that worshipping the true God they did it in and by those Images as also by other deuices of their owne and traditions of their predecessours That this was their estate and sinne besides that it appeareth in that chapter alleadged it is also most plainlie sett downe first by them selues in that booke of Ezra Ezra 4.1 2. where they speake vnto the Iewes of the captiuitie that builded the Temple saying We will buylde with you for wee seeke the Lord your God as ye doe and we haue sacrificed vnto him since the tyme of Esar Haddon King of Asshur which brought vs vp hither Then also betweene Christ and the woman of Samaria Joh. 4. where it is manifest that the “ Ioh. 4.20 21 22 23 24 25 29 30. contention betweene the Iewes and the Samaritans was not whether onely the true God was to be worshipped but both of them agreeing in that whether the solemne place of his worship was in Ierusalem or in the mount of Samaria c. Lastlie by this mans owne confession when he sayth in this place Pag 49. that the Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bâ—thel serued not Pagan Idolls but the true God after their owne deuices For the scripture testifieth “ 2. King 17.28 32 33. that the Samaritans worshipped the same God and after the same maner that the Nations did which were caried from thence Nowe the nations that were carryed from thence were the tenns Tribes that fel away from Iudah to Ieroboam which likewise feared * 1. King 12.27 28 29 30 31. with 2. King 17.32 33 40 41. the Lord serued their Jmages that is God in and by their Images as nowe also the Samaritans did that were come in their steede Hetherto of his answere which may seeme to concerne the Proposition of the latter Sillogisme The Assumption was shewed by this that these assemblies being commingled togeather of all sortes of people they haue also for the worship of God among them a counterfett
iustifie Where you would snatch at an advauntage about Aarons line my meaning was that they of Aaron were only for Priests their bretheren of Leui only for Leuites But you passe this and you set your self in earnest to proue vs all conuicted in conscience aboute our Hyerarchie and ceremonies So that here you auouch openly that third generall poinct which I obserued in my very beginning aboue pag. 3. for the which you haue this Reason Haue not wee the scriptures as much as the Apostate Isralites had Or did not Christ as fully and plainly sett downe our ministerie and worship in the Gospell as Moses in the Law I aunswere this is true as touching the word it selfe In the Gospell we are taught as plainly and as fully for the word it selfe as the Iewes were in Moses But it is not yet so playne for our vnderstanding and vse Why Because wee haue had a discontinuance of the “ The Pastors of the Churches since haue had many corruptions mixed in their callings they haue not bene pure and simple euer since or at least wee cannot proue it otherwise by any recordes now extant simple offices of Pastours Teachers and Elders for the space of a Thousand Three hundreth or a Thousand Four hundreth Yeares and a continuance of the Prelacie all this while hetherto Also for that many auncient and late learned and Godly Christians haue beleued it at least cōuenient if not necessary in the Church And they haue expounded the Scriptures so that they carry no small ambiguity in this matter in infinite Thousands iudgement Thus it hath pleased God in his prouidence to suffer this mistaking amongest Christians thus longe and thus vniuersally Whereby it commeth to passe that infinite Thousand consciences are not easely conuicted though they bee mistaken in this case With the Iewes it was not so in this matter that we talke of As Moses and the Prophets were most plain that Ierusalem must be the onlie place of solemne worship Arons line the onely Priests no Calues nor any visible kinde of Image or meanes to worship God in So also they constantly and perpetually practized that course euen from Moses till the Apostacie of Ieroboam When any sqared from this course these were not onely rebuked expreslie by Gods voyce in his Prophets from time to time but also the obstinate were most fearfully smitten with Gods miraculous hand from heauen So that for any to offend in these poinctes as Ieroboam did It could not possible bee but in presumptuous rebellion with a high hand against God and with a conuicted seared conscience Which I say cannot with any shew of sence be said of many Thousand Christians in this case touching the Praelacie c. Further you vrge * these Reasons That this cause hath bene made manifest to the consciences of men Pag. 53. yea to the Parliament of late times You say well to the consciences of men but not to the consciences of all men or the most men throughout the land Yea or to the most of them that know and feare God according to the religion now mainteyned This is the very question If you meane so that all mens consciences are conuicted in this matter All men surely will either pitty your simplicitie or laugh at your folly I pray you Maister Iohnson consider your selfe you were a true Christian longe before you fell into this separation Yea moreouer you were learned yea you knew and acknowledged these very corruptions a great while and yet condemned vs not Nay you condemned the separation earnestly I pray you is it not possible that numbers who see not so farre as you did then should still condemne your separation and yet be true Christians as you acknowledge that your selfe then was meipso teste That which you ad of persecuting vnto bandes exile and death to proue our vtter abolishing from Christ generally It is a toy Pag. ibid. First if you were meerely innocent yet this could not make vs worse then the Iewes in Christes time who for all that they persecuted yet were they not wholly falne from God Secondly you suffer indeed more thē you need if that you would but acknowledge the grace of God with vs so farre as it is It is therefore not Christes Crosse in that regard but your owne that you beare Finally let it bee noted if here in this your 6. Reason you bee not directly contrary to your self as I haue obserued in your 2. Reason Maister Iohnson his contrarietie proued betwene his 2. Reason and his 6. Reason Pag. 39. For you say here Pag. 48. That not the Samaritans but the Jewes were then by Christ counted the true worshippers of God heires of saluation Ioh. 4.22 But in your Second Reason Pag. 35. you say They that teach for doctrine mens precepts as there Christ saith the Iewes then did those in particuler are no true Christians nor their assemblies true Churches Math. 15.9 Therfore you inferre or else you pretend it that those perticuler Iewes were not then true worshippers nor their assemblies true Churchest which is a flat contradiction Or else what is But if you say you meane not this of the Iewes then you abuse the scripture and vs turning it cleane from them whom in your Reason you speake of and whom Christ therein expresly meaneth Maister IOHNSONS VII Reason against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same REASON VII IF the Spirit of God accompt them to bee departers from the faith and consequently no true Christians which though they hold other truthes of the Gospell yet forbid to marry commaund to abstaine srom meates which God hath created to bee receiued with thankesgiuing Then what doeth the Lord accompt of them which forbid the true Ministerie and worship of God and commaund a false and of them also which partake therein Which to be the estate of the Prelates and other Ministers and people of these assemblies appeareth not only by their practize and persecution but also by the booke of Articles heere alleadged as may be seene in the 35. and 36. Articles compared with their booke of Cannons set forth Anno 1571. and with the Articles lately set forth by the * Richard Eletcher Prelate of London that now is and inquired of in his visitation Anno 1595. As also by other their Articles Cannons Aduerticements Iniunctions c. which were longe heere to rehearse But the former is true 1. Tim. 4.1 2 3. Therefore c. H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 7. Reason THis your Seauenth Reason is They are departed from the faith that forbid to marry commaund to abstaine from lawfull meates Also this is worse then that viz. to forbid the true Ministerie and to commaunde a false which wee in England doe Ergo wee are departers from the faith I denie this Antecedent that is your Assumption with a distinction The Papistes * See Rhemi-Testa in Mat. 15.18 forbidding
in the mouthes of his weakest seruantes except they haue authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat 28.18 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1. 27. Psal 2.6 9 10 12. Esai 9.6 7. Zach. 4.6 and 6.12.23 Dan. 2.44 and 7.27 and 9.25 Mich. 5.7 Mat. 28.20 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6 12. 1 Tim. 6.13 14.15 Rene. 1.5 and 14.12 and 17.14 19 16. and 20.4 3 That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated companie of righteouse men and women from the Jdolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good bad Which doctrine is contrarie to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 with 6.2 Exod. 4.22 23. Leuit. 10.10 and 20.24 25 26 Psal 24.3 4. Ezra 6.21 2 Chron. 11.13 16. Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10 12. Act. 2.40 41 42. and 19.9 Rom. 12.1 8. 2 Cor. 6.17 18. 1 Pet. 2.9 10. Reu. 14.9 12. and 18.4 and 21.27 and 22.14 15. c. 4 That they may mainteyne this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they peruert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Sauiours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant not the Church but the world in which his Church is milatāt And as therin there is the good seede the righteous the Children of the Kingdome So there are also tares hipocrites the childrē of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous seruauntes of God so shall they in that great day be perfectlie seuered from the godly by the Angels of God verse 38.43 This their doctrine also is against the heauenlie orders mentioned Matt. 18.8 9 15 16 17. 1 Corint 1.26.29 Actes 2.40.41 47. and 5.26 27 28. and 19 9. and 5.4 7. 2 Cor. 6.17 18. Leuit. 18.29 1 Tim. 6.5 2 Iohn verse 6.11 Reuel 2. and 3. and 14.9.12 and 18.4 and 20.4 5 That the people may tollerate and ioyne with open iniquitie in the Church vntill by the Magistrate it be redressed which doctrine is contrary to these riptures 2 Cor. 10.4 5. Mat. 28.21 Acts. 2.40 3.23 and 4.19 and 9.26 and 19.9 1 Tim. 5.22 Deu. 5.32 6 That the guiftes of interpretation and application of the Scriptures are a sufficient and lawfull calling to the ministerie c. Which doctrine is both false and Anabaptisticall contrarie to the scriptures Heb. 5.4 Rom 12.6 7 8. Leuit. 22.25 Ezek. 44.8 9 c. Num. 1.51 and 3.10 38 and 16.40 and 18.2 3 4. Act. 1.20.26 and 14.23 and 13.2.3 7 That the Church may yeelde obedience vnto other lawes cannons and traditions officers and offices then God hath prescribed in his Conenant Which doctrine is contrarie to Gen. 49.10 Mal. 6.24 Iohn 10 4 5. Ren. 14.4 and 22 18 19. Heb. 3 1 c 8 That the Church may read other mens wordes vppon a booke and offer them vp to God as their owne prayers and sacrifices in the publique Assemblies Which doctrine is contrarie to the scriptures Esai 29.13 14. Rom. 8.26 1 Cor. 14.15 Mat. 6.6.9 and 15.9 Mar. 7.7 Ephe. 4.7 8. 1 Pet. 2.5 9 That it is lawfull to ioyne with the Ministerie of dumb and Jdoll Priests and to receiue the Sacramentes at their handes Which doctrine is contrarie to Mal. 15.14 and 7.19 and 24.24 25. Iohn 10.1.5 Num. 16 5 9 24 26 39 40 c. 1 Tim 6.5.2 Iohn verse 6.11 10 That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to cease preaching forsake his flock at the Commaundement of a Lord Bishop Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Cor. 9.16 Esay 62.4 6 7. Ier. 48.10 Zach. 11.17 Iohn 10.11 12 13. Actes 4.18 19 20 and 5.29 Amos 7.12 13 14 15. 2 Tim. 4.2 11 That the Church of Christ hath not alwayes power to binde and loose to receiue in and to cast out by the Keyes of the Kingdome Which doctrine is contrarie to Mat. 18.17 18. Psal 149.9 1 Cor. 5.4 5.12 Num. 5 2 3. 12 That it is lawfull for the people of God to heare notorious false prophetes in their Ministerie Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 18.15 Mat. 17.5 and 7.15.2 John verse 10.11 1 Cor. 10.18 Gala. 1 8 9. Reuel 14 9 10 11. and 18.4 John 10.96 13 That it is the Church and house of God the body and kingdome of Christ where he reigneth not by his own Ordinances Officers but the highest Ecclesiasticall authoritie is in the handes of strange Lordes and Antichristian Prelates who also gouerne by Romishe Cannons and not according to the lawes of Christes Testament Which doctrine and practise is condemned by Luke 19.14 27. Iohn 15.14 Rom. 6.16 Luke 22.25 26. 1 Pet. 3.2 Thes 2 3.4 Iohn 3.35.36 Reuel 9.3 and 14.9.10.11 and 19.14.15 14 That there may be a prescript Leiturgie and sett fourme of seruice in the Church framed by man which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 5.8 Esai 29.13 14. Mat. 15.9 and 7.6.7 Gal. 3.15 Iohn 4.24 Rom. 8.26.27 Ephe. 4.7.8 15 That an Antichristian Prelate notwithstanding his dignitie as it is called spirituall may be a Ciuill Magistrate and obeyed of the people as their lawfull gouernour Which doctrine is contrarie to Rom. 13.1 c. Mat. 20.25 26. Mar. 10.42 43. Luke 22.25 26. Reuel 14.9 10 11. and 17.18 16 That men may giue the titles of Christ Jesus vnto these sonnes of men and his mortall enemies to call them their Arch and Lord Bishops Reuerend Fathers c. Which doctrine is contrarie to Mat. 23 8 9 10. Esai 42.8 and 48.11 Pro. 17.15 and 24.24 Esai 5.20 2 Cor. 6.14.17 17 That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to be mainteyned in his ministerie by the goods of wicked and vnbeleeuers by Iewish and Popishe tythes and offeringes Which doctrine is contrarie to Prou. 27.26 27. 1 Cor. 9.13 14. Phil. 4.10.18 Gal. 6.6 Rom. 15.27 Heb. 7.12 These are the 17 poinctes which were mentioned before in the proofe of this reason which the aduersarie hath left altogeather vnanswered as he hath done also their owne Cannons Articles and Iniunctions which are to be seene in their printed bookes And thus is he driuen againe againe whether he will or not to yeeld vs the cause That which he addeth in the next place of their not wholy denying the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinately peruerslie and desperatlie any parte thereof is answered before in the defence of our second Exception and of our sixt and seauenth Reasons Nowe when he next saith That they are not herein like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paule separated from which he did not from all other Iewes Actes 13.14 and 16 3 and 21 23 24 26. and 3.1 Firste wee aske What if they be not in all respectes like vnto those
17. are none other then the proud glittering titles wherewith they garnish their vsurped authoritie to make it seeme glorious to the worlde hauing within them conteyned the great misterie of iniquitie What other els saith he also is Pope Cardinall Metropolitan Primate Archbishop Diocean Archdeacon Officiall Chauncelour Commissarie Deane Prebend Parsons Vicar and such like but very names of blasphemie For offices they are not appointed by the holy Ghost nor yet once mentioned in the scriptures This Iohn Bale held and published Then which what can be more full and euident against them And againe writing vpon the 14. chapter of the Reuelation In Image of both churches vpō Reu. 14.9 he hath these wordes To receyue the beastes marke in their foreheads hands is both to agree to such decrees traditions lawes constitutions actes and proclamations as they vnder those titles haue made onely for their own couetousnes and pompe and neither for the glorie of God nor yet for the right maintenance of the Christian cōmon wealth And also to be sworn to the same to subscribe to it to giue counsell or ayde to it to mainteyne it by learning to minister in it to execute vnder it to accuse punishe and put to death for it or to thinke it lawfull and godly with such like And “ Ibid. vpon Reuel 16.12 afterward vpon the 16. of the Reuelation expounding the drying vp of the waters of Euphrates to be this That the welthy Popes possessions and pleasurs of the Clergy their false feates once known are and shal be cleerly taken away from them He saith Moreouer In * Marke also by this of what time estate hee speaketh euen of such when the Gospell was preached the Monasteries suppressed England by the Gospell preaching haue many of these waters bene dried vp in the suppression of the monasteries prioryes couents and Friers houses yet are not all thinges brought vnto Christs cleare institution A cincere Christian-order cannot yet be seene there And a great cause why For all is not yet dried vp there The Bishops reigne still in asmuch vaine glorious pompe and with as many Heathenish obseruations as euer they did As cruelly harted and as bloody minded are they yet as euer they were afore No mischiefe vnsought to holde in the waters Marke howe “ He meaneth the Prelates of these Seas Winchester Durham Yorke London and Lyncolne worke let vs also now adde Canterburie with such other pleasantlie disposed Euphratynes But be of good comfort pray in the meane time For the holy Ghost promiseth heere that they shall wither away withall that the heauenly Father hath not planted All which generation will the Lords breth cōsume c. Likewise may be shewed by the testimonie of others in former tymes as of Iohn Wickliffe who * Actes Monumen 4. edi 1. vol. pa. 150. helde and affirmed That Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons Officialls Deanes Cannons were disciples of Antichrist In like manner of William Swinderby who * Ibid. pag. 36.8 b. said that what Pope Cardinal Bishop Prelate or Priest in manner of liuing or teachching or lawes making contrarie to Christs liuing his lawes or any other ground put in ruling of the Church of Christ but by Christ and his lawes is very Antichrist aduersarie to Iesus Christ and his Apostles Also Syr John old Castle Lord Cobham who “ Ibid. pag. 5621 b. 563. held affirmed that the Bishops Priestes Prelates and Monkes were the body of the great Antichrist And that the possessions and Lordships of the Clergy were the venime of Iudas shed into the Church Likewise Iohn * Ibid. pag. 639. b Cladon burnt in Smithfield held professed that the Archbishops Bishops speaking indifferently are the seates of the beast Antichrist when he sitteth in them and reigneth aboue other people in the darke Calues of errors and heresies Moreouer that the Bishops licence for a mā to preach the worde of God is the true character of the beast that is Antichrist Finally William “ In his treatises called the obedience of a christian man and the pracsise of Prelats Tindall and Iohn * In his Preface before his Antythesis betweene Christ and the Pope Frith held and publissed That Archb. Lordb. Archdeacons Deanes Officialls Parsons Vicars and the rest of that sort are the disciples of Antichrist yea very Antichristes themselues These are the speeches and testimonies of the holy Martirs in former ages whereunto diuerse other such like might bee added But these may suffice for the matter in hand And now compare with these thinges alleadged the publique profession practise of England euen as it is by law at this day and see whether their own proofes bee not so many witnisses against themselues But if it were so that the reformed Churches wee our selues and the Martirs of former time had geuen allowance of their present estate Church constitution what would this help thē when all the word of God condemneth thē as we haue shewed in our Reasons aforesaid defence therof Whereunto if they will still iustifie their estate wee require direct answer from poinct to poinct and that from the scriptures which only can stablish the conscince Now furthermore that the truth it selfe and their estate may better appeare what it is as also that they may not turne away or obscure the truth by their subtill shiftes and euasions as their manner is we will therefore propound vnto them a few questions concerning the poinctes now in controuersie in this land desiring their playne and sincere answers thereunto by the word of God as they will answer him in his great day The questions are these 1 Whether the Lord Iesus Christ haue by his last Testament geuen vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary 1. Offices with their 2. Callings 3. Workes and 4. Maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guidance and seruice of his Church to the end of the world or no. 2 Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and helpers be those offices appincted by Christ in his last Testament as aforesaid .. Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops Lordbishops Suffragans Deanes Prebendaries Cannons Petticannos Gospellers Pistlers Virgirers Queristers Organ-players Priests Deacons or halfe Priestes Archdeacons Doctors of diuinitie Batchelers of diuinity Chaplyns or House-priestes Commissaries Officialls Procters Apparitors Parsons Vicars Curates Vagrant or Mercinary preachers Church-wardens Sidemen Clerkes Sextons and the rest now had in these Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies be those offices appoincted by Christ in his last Testament as is aforesaid or no. 3 Whether the Callinges and entraunce into these Ecclesiasticall offices last aforesaid their Administration and Maintenance nowe had and receiued in England be the manner of calling administration maintenaunce which Christ hath appoincted for the offices of his church aboue named or no. 4 Whether euery true visible church of
before The notorious dissolute wicked some were reclaimed all vndertook another profession a new appearance of Christianitie And no doubt the like is to be thought of these as before I obserued touching the ignorant men Now all this was done not intollerablie doubtlesse though I graunt weakely corruptly And very like euen to your owne receiuing into your Church at this time nay more tollerable and more lawfull then yours who to furnish onely one congregation haue receiued many knowne bad men and very ignorant yea and still retaine men full of contention bitter strife 1 Cor. 3.3 In a word this I answer That which disanulleth not a Church gathered and settled That disanulleth it not in the gathering and beginning But such mixtures doe not disanull a Church gathered and setled as appeareth aboue in the scriptures quoted against the First AccusatioÌ„ Mat 23. Luke 2. c. Therfore such mixtures did not disanull our Churches then in their beginning Accusa ∣ tion 3 The Third Accusation is our Assemblies remayne in obedience to the false Antichristian officers c. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diuersitie of sinnes All are not of like detestation before God nor of like coÌ„sequence against vs. I say not that any sinnes are veniall but I say All sinnes by their nature are mortal yet doe they not al alike abolish vs from Christ nor depriue vs of the glory of God Now this sinne of outward church orders is not of the most heynous nor extreamest disobedience There are sinnes against the * 1 Cor. 15.3 3. 4. RoÌ„ 4.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11 12 13 14. foundation and there are sinnes that stande with the foundation ibid. wherein men liuing and dying ignorantly without perticular repeÌ„tance may be saued Such were the sinnes of the Iewish church and estate in Christes time and after as “ Beza in Acts 15.20 some thinke euen till their Temple and Citie were destroyed though they did personally hate and persecute Christ Such also was the sinne of the auncient declyning Bishops Epiphanius Augustine Chrisostom Leo of Rome c. No lesse was in ours of late Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. in King Edward dayes and no greater is now in ours presently especially touching our Churches Ministers too generally If you say we are all conuicted nowe and sinne against our coÌ„scieÌ„ces as they did not in those times It is vtterly false a palpable vntrueth Whosoeuer knoweth any thing in our church estate generally must needs see it that this poinct touching the Hyerarchy is not acknowledged euen of ignoraÌ„ce in a thousand to one many holding not of the simplest this present gouernement to be th' only true right kinde but all men almost to be indifferent lawful very few indeed scarse to be found that see it to be meerly nought or as you terme it wicked intollerable And in King Edwards time whosoeuer considereth shall finde that the godly learned ProtestaÌ„ts then were not vtterly ignorant of this poinct of reformation and yet sinned not against their conscience in bearing with the times neither were abolished from Christ And surely touching the Iewes they were all generally more conuicted then that Iesus was the Christ then we are now that the Prelacie is of Antichrist yet they remayned a church stil because generally indeed they were not plainly conuicted Thus theÌ„ this our sinne is * See the 2. sortes of fundamental sinnes in the 2. Reply to your 7. Reason before pag. 48. no way fundamentall it destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole assemblies Therfore they remaine Christian people still as I affirmed not all godles prophane as he vncharitably speaketh O beware of rash and hasty iudging euen of one brother Rom. 14.3 4 13. how much more of such so many whole assemblies professing Christ in EnglaÌ„d Woe be vnto him which curseth where God curseth not Num. 23.8 As also indeed that blesseth where God blesseth not We desire you not to blesse vs in our euil but we warne you not to curse vs in our good which indeed turneth vs not to any furtherance but to a great hinderance and stumbling block stopping vs froÌ„ that sinceritie which els we should dravve nearer vnto Blessed is he that iudgeth wisely that is without affection partialitie euen of him that is despised Better it is and more Christian like euen to offende in too much compassion and patience especially towardes so many hundreth thousands by whom we know nought saue good in this poinct then to offend in too much rigor and seueritie vniust anger Mat. 5. â—2 Howbeit this were not indeed to offend as hath bene aboue shewed And briefly in twoo words thus I conclude it farther that That faith religioÌ„ taught in the booke of Articles published 1562. maketh the people that beleeue and obey the same true Christians such as so liuing and dying may be saued But our Church doeth so holde that faith Therefore they are true Christians The Proposition onely is doubted I had thought none so desperate as to deny it but lately I vnderstand they haue denyed it Howbeit for answer I referre them partly to that which here hath bene said before and especiallie to that which is replied to their Answer in the former Treatise which being well weighed I doubt not but all indifferent and Christian mindes will acknowledge our publique church assemblies in England to be true Christians REASON II. F. Iohns SEcondly the Priest doth not celebrate or pronounce any marriage without the married first giue their consent But the Prelats make Ministers without before the peoples consent Therefore the comparison holdeth not H. Iacob FIrst it is very vaine to make this any matter viz. the peoples coÌ„senting either before or after the Prelats ordeyning For whether before or after it is in nature and value all one They in their ignoraÌ„ce hauing respect only to the Prelats act And if it were so that the Priest should sometymes marie a couple the Maide being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striuing nor resisting and a while after shall willingly agree and like Out of question there is now true wedlock betweene them Euen so the case is betwixt the Church and the Minister 2. But what will they except here against those Pastors amoÌ„gst vs that were first chosen by the people they first professing their consent and are after instituted inducted by the Praelat Many are thus called amongst vs the most haue the peoples consent euen togeather at their first inducting at least wise they haue soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them euen presently 3. Lastly in a word where he saith the Praelats make Ministers without and before the peoples consent We “ Beza in Act 14.23 Fenner against Bridges Pag. 148. affirme that they make not the Pastor at all indeed and in truth but only supposedly It is the Churches consent that maketh him
out of the pure word They knew that euery visible Church might did erre in somewhat Onely it meaneth that a visible Church might not erre in any poinct that of necessitie is requisite as their wordes expresse It resteth then that you shew that the pure word is not preached in our assemblies by law sufficiently to saluation which yet you doe not nor can doe Therefore you say nothing For I for my part know well that our Churches faile from the pure word in sundrie lesser points which though they be errours yet are they not Fundamentall neither doe they in their ovvne nature abolish from Christ Thirdlie the Article hath according to Christes ordinance But you saye that we preach in strange and false functions such as are not Christes ordinances This is false too Our ordinarie Preachers are true Pastours as touching the substance of Pastorall calling as I haue often aunswered you albeit they haue a wrong ordination from the Prelacie See my defence of this poinct as also of that concerning the confusion of our people in my other writing long since deliuered to you touching the †In my aunswer to the 1. reason of that treatise following in the end of this booke comparing of the condition of a Ministerie with Mariadge Now this ordinance of Christ to haue a true Pastor to a faithfull people is sufficient for the being of a true Church though not for the perfection of it Contrarie to the which you haue nothing but words Lastlie the Article requireth due administration of Sacraments But our practize say you herein is not due or intier because there concurre diuers corruptions withall as stinted prayers exhortations Epistles Gospels Crossing in Baptisme c. I answere all these simplie of them selues doe not abolishe our Sacraments If you thinke they doe say so and you shal be refuted If nay Then this very Article signifieth so much That corruptions and faultes might be in the Sacraments but nothing amisse that of necessitie is requisite Novve all these 4. poinctes I haue omitted say you True in wordes I haue but in sence I expresse them all and euery one when for breuities sake I comprehended all in this generall clause of this Article according to all that is of necessitie requisite How say you haue I not herein conteyned and signified all these your exceptions and that accordinge to the meaning of the Article If I haue as it is most true then doe you vnconscionablie abuse me in saying I pretended to repeate our description in the Article and yet leaue out diuers perticulars of speciall moment And let this therefore be first obserued I haue omitted nothing materiall in that Article Yea let this be here noted that in all this you haue moste fondlie abused your penne and tounge Yet will you still demaund how our practise agreeth with our profession in that 19. Article Still I answer you with that similitude of a foolish and importinate Tēnaunt against his Landlord If I haue held possession and my aunestors before my time out of minde indeed the King laying claime to it hee may call for my euidence because * Time prescribeth not against the Prince nullum tempus occurrit Regi But against my fellow subiects possession inheritance so longe without interruption is of it selfe euidence in lawe good enough except the plaintif can bring better to the contrary Therefore it were absurd and sencelesse before any Iudge in England for a Tenaunt to put such a Landlord to shew his euidence in such a case Euen so as absurd it is for you seeing at first you were of vs and now are gone out from vs to put vs to proue our selues to be such as heretofore you neuer doubted of If now you doubt and contradict it shew you your reason as better euidence or els all men wil condempne your folly Where you put me to proue all our offices of the Hyerarchie their ceremonies c. What needeth it I neuer tooke it vpon me Except first you doe shew that these corruptions all or any of them absolutely in their own nature doe abolish vs all cleane from Christ make vs vnpossible to be saued which vntill you doe still I say I see not any peece of reason in all these your words And lastly where you say it is an impudent vntruth that I say we see not that any thing necessarie is wanting in our Church And to this end you quote to conuince me The Admonition T. C. his Replies Demonstration Declaration and the Defence of Discipline c. This is indeed too bold an vntrueth a wilfull peruerting of your allegations None of all these doe graunt any thing to be wanting with vs that is necessary to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments But onely to their well and conuenient being How honest then are you to falsifie your own witnesses so openly Maister Iohnsons 2. Exception against the former Assumption with Maister Iacobs Replies to the same EXCEPTION 2. SEcondly let them tell vs whether they hold professe Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his own ordinance onely and in no other And if they doe then let them shew vs how their practize agreeth with this profession H. JACOB his 1. Reply to the 2. Excep TO this Second Exception That Christ is our Prophet Priest King I aunswere The booke of Articles our Ministers now and Congregations generally doe hold and professe the same our practize being answerable likewise thervnto euen as before time Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and such like with their Congregations did then viz. That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King and to be obeyed in his own ordinances onely and in no other This I say we generally professe and practize Howbeit this note with all we hold Christs ordinance to be of two sortes written or vnwritten the first necessary the second arbitrary The firste touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion only such as these The doctrine of God his Nature his Persons his Properties of the Messias Christ Iesus of Iustification of Sanctification of the Resurection c. Wherein standeth the †1. Cor. 3.12.23 foundation of sauing faith All these must be in the writen word or els to bee none of Christes The second touching outward orders in the Church which are truly called accounted Christs own also although particularly deuised and appoincted by the Church whom Christ hath authorized therevnto euen as it shal be thought most fit and profitable for the present times places and persons such we hold all outward gouernement and ceremonies to bee because they be not simply of the foundation neither written nor certen nor perpetuall but at the arbitrarie appoinctment of the Church and Magistrate and yet to be Christes owne neuerthelesse who hath left this libertie for the Church to vse Thus we hold
Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separat frō thē that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6 3 4 5. We holding those Articles doe teach diuerse thinges in the Hyerarchie c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a falacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Answer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholly or absolutly And so the Apostle heere meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you proue vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly peruersly and desperatly any parte thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.8 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Iewes Act. 13.14 and 16.3 and 21.23 24 26. and 3.1 Therefore you ought not wholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs wholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer and Ridley were with their Congregations in King Edwards time And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian The contrarie whereof is such a Paradox Conclusion as hath not bene heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and haue alwayes held otherwise Themselues * Mai. Barrow Mai. Penry Mai. Iohnson heretofore haue acknowledged and professed it The holy Martirs that liued in King Edwardes dayes and died in Queene Maries dayes must bee otherwise cut of from Christ who were true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practice thereof or verily not at all But now it is wonder what extreame passion hath driuen them to this deniall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptorie separation And therefore rather then they would seeme to haue erred in so mayne poinct wee cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driuen them to it Neuerthelesse all this we leaue to the Lorde with the iudgment thereof who hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the seacrets but also to turne and dispose them euen as it pleaseth him F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 9. Reason VNto our Nineth Reason aforesaide he answereth That it is a Fallacy separate from such Ergo separate wholy But howe shewes he any fallacie to be in our Reason Hee bids vs see his answere aboue to our third Exception also his answeres to the two last Reasons of all Well we haue seene them and finde nothing there but against him self as there hath bene shewed So this Reason then as the rest also still standes vnanswered and stronge against them And that we may not doubt but him selfe also seeth it to be so how soeuer he seemeth to pleade to the contrarie before therefore nowe he graunteth it and so yeeldes vs the cause both in expresse wordes and by not defending the 17. poinctes of false doctrine wherewith they were charged neither their owne Cannons Articles Iniunctions c. alleadged against them In expresse wordes whē he sayth they graunt that so farr foorth as they holde otherwise then trueth so farre we may and ought to separat from them Loe here what the euidence of the trueth against which they haue struggeled so longe hath now at length drawne from them The trueth is mighty and preuayleth But he addeth that we must not separate from them any further then as before not wholy or absoluteiy and so saieth he the Apostle “ 1. Tim. 3.3 here meaneth Well but let vs here knowe what this mā him self meaneth hereby If he meane that we must not for their other defectiō forsake the truthes which they holde We answere that we doe it not as him selfe knoweth and in this sence also his meaning should come nothing neare the Apostles meaning Themselues say they haue separated from the Papists yet he neither ean nor will say that they haue forsaken the “ As that ther is a God that there is three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Sauiour of the worlde that God made heauen and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust truthes which the papistes held notwithstanding that they haue made separation from them But if he meane that because of the truthes which they professe therefore we should not separate from them then First he contradicteth him selfe hauing graunted that we must separate from them so far foorth as they hold otherwise then trueth Secondly he condemneth their owne practze in their separation from the Papistes notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdly in this sence also his meaning should come nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore it is euident both that there is no fallacie in our reason but that it is plaine and forceable against them And moreouer that he hath directly in expresse wordes yeelded vs the cause and acknowledged our separation from their assemblies ministerie worship c. And as he doeth this in expresse wordes so also he sheweth it in deed in that he leaueth without all defence as vnlawfull and to be separated from their Ministerie Worship and Gouuernement Ecclesiasticall the 17. poincts of false doctrine obiected against them and their Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularly in the First and Second Reasons going before Which thing we wish the Reader well to obserue And because we are fallen againe into mention of the 17. poinctes of false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of his dealing and insufficiencie of all his answeres heere and before therefore it shall not bee yrke some to sett downe here before the Readers those 17. poinctes of false doctrine aforesaide specially seeing they are but short They are these as followeth Poinctes of false doctrine deliuered and spread abroad by the Writings Sermons and practise of the forward Preachers of the Parish assemblies of England with answeres to the same 1 That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacramentes yet neither the Sacramentes nor the people that ioyne with them are defiled thereby Which doctrine is contrarie to the trueth of God in these scriptures 1 Cor. 10 17. Hag. 2.14 15. 1 Cor. 5.6 and 10.28 2 Cor. 6.15 18. Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8 9 15 16 17 18 19. Exod. 12.43 Leuit. 15.4 5 6 7 31. and 11.24 and 23 45 46. and 19.17 Num. 5.2 3. and 19.21 22. Iosua 11.12 Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2 That the planting or reforming of Christes Church must tarrie for the Ciuill magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word spirite of God