other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say
they haue not of themselues but receiue from the interpretation of the churche and traditions which is an impious and blasphemous assertion For the interpretation of a Sinode is but a glosse the scripture is the text the interpretation may err the text cannott erre the interpretation is the worde of man the scriptures the voyce of God to conclude this point whereas the position of the former Roman church was that diuinitie reasoneth from the scriptures necessarilie from other authors and learninge probablie the wheele nowe is turned and men reason from the scriptures coniecturallie but from the interpretation of the churche and tradition firmelie and sullie CHAMP Howe often haue you been tould of your wittinge belying your aduersaries you knowe well if you knowe anie thinge that the catholikes whom you call papists doe teach the scriptures to be the worde of the holy Ghost and to haue theire veritie from him independentlie of the churche And therefore that the churche addeth no strength or veritie to them no more then the witnes or notarie addeth truth or veritie to the will testament of the testatour Neuertheles the authoritie testimonie of the churche is as necessarie for the acceptance and acknowledgment as well of the letter and texte it selfe as of the sence and meaninge of the scriptures as the witnes or notaries hande is to the acknowledgment and proofe of the will and testament or as the sentence of the iudge is necessarie for the true sence and meaninge of the will if at anie tyme it come to be in doubte or in question Neither is the interpretation of the churche vppon the scripture the interpretation or worde of man as you hereticallie tearme it but of the holy Ghost as besides other places you may learne of that Visum est Spitui Sancto nobis But it auaileth like as to teache a wilfull mynde wisdome Your conclusion is yett more childishe ignorant and impertinent For from the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the churche which is infalliblie true we say the argument is necessarie and infallible whereas from all humane authours taken seuerallie be they neuer so learned the argument is not certayne but probable But wheÌ„ we speake of humane authors we vnderstande not the churche nor yett her receiued traditions And thus you see your strongest arguments against the position of the manuall are nothinge but froathie calumnies paralogismes and impertinencies dispersed and blowne away with euerie small blast of winde Manuall Catholike position 2. All such articles as are of faith and so holden by the protestants themselues are not contayned so much as indirectlie or implicitlie in the holy scriptures but onlie so farr as the scriptures contayne and testifie the authority of the churche traditions Proofe Take all the bookes of the bible and euerie parte thereof which are acknowledged for canonicall scripture ioyntlie of catholikes and protestants be such indeede That the moste blessed mother of our Sauiour Christe continued perpetuallie a virgin That it is lawfull for christians to eat strangled thinges and blood which were expressely forbidden them Acts 15. 20. are not so much as indirectly contained in holy scriptures otherwise then is mentioned in our position But this being more amply proued in that which followeth of traditions this which we haue sayd alreadie shal suffice for the present PILK The sunne needeth to borrowe no light of other starres nor the scriptures of the churche or of tradition For without helpe of either they sufficientlie prooue all articles of faith CHAMP It is an vsuall tricke of all deceiptfull and verball disputers to inuert change the question in hande that when they can say nothinge to the true questioÌ„ they may finde somethinge to say to the question framed by themselues The controuersie here is not whether the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue all other articles of faith for that was disputed in the precedent position and the negatiue parte there prooued against you but whether they sufficientlie prooue themselues to be the holy scriptures or noe which was the first proofe of this position lett vs heare howe you answere it PILK But here you trifle in idle Homonomie of articles of faith For strictlie those thinges are called articles of faith which are prescribed in the old and newe testament to be beleeued and are summarilie comprised in the Apostles creed whereby they are both distinguished from the precepts of the lawe that prescribe good workes and from the principles of diuintie from which as from conclusions they are deriued CHAMP I knowe not what you call trifelinge in homonomie but I knowe that you bable in obscuritie It is be like no article of faith with you that God is to be adored his name not to be prophaned or blasphemed that our parents are to be honoured with the rest of gods commaundements because they be precepts commaundinge good workes I maruell where you learned this good diuinitie But lett this passe yett it serueth not your turne For the scriptures whereof the question is nowe are not precepts as you knowe You haue therefore another as good a shifte That is that articles of faith are distinguished not onlie from precepts but also â—roâ— princeples of diuinitie from which as conclusions they are deriued these are your owne wordes but what you meane by them I cannot conceiue They seeme to sounde that the articles of faith as conclusions are deriued from the principles of diuinitie Then which you coulde haue sayd nothinge more contrarie to truthe For all men knowe that the conclusions of diuinitie are deriued from the articles of our faith as from theire principles not the contrarie as you dreame It had been good you had taken one yeere more to haue reuewed your writinges that you might haue made better sence of your ayinges PILK Of which sorte of principles these are That the holy scriptures are diuine inspired from heauen immutabely true CHAMP By what other reason I pray you are these thinges here named by you rather to be called principles of diuinitie then articles of faith more then for your owne bare and ignorant assertion you should haue geuen some reason for your distinction that your reader might haue seene it had not been meerely forged onlie to delude the argument Againe why are these thinges to be tearmed principles and not articles of faith God is one God is omnipotent God is truth it selfe and the first truth that reuealeth misteries of faith you dare not denie these to be principles of the other principles and yett are they most properlie articles of faith as you dare not denie expressed in the creede it selfe You see therefore your distinctions of articles and principles of faith to be vaine foolishe and friuolous inuented onlie to delude your lesse carefull reader PILK Improperlie articles of faith are called whatsoeuer is written as the principles themselues preceptes of the lawe sermons of the prophets histories of both testaments because faith assenteth to euerie
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
of this your assertion woulde assuredlie gett you the victorie in all the rest you contende aboute without all further dispute But the manifest falsitie of your affirmation doth not only make your cause desperate but also deepelie woundeth your creditt hauinge no care to affirme so apparant vntruthes without the slenderest shewe of proofe or probabilitie att all PILK Besides we doe not finde in anie auncient creede either that of the Apostles or of Nice or in anie other of the auncient counsells that the churche was stiled the catholâ—cke Roman Finallie howe canne a parte be the whole Nowe the Roman churche thoughe shee were pure in her farthest extent is but a parte of the vniuersall churche CHAMP Haue you not yett learned howe vaine a thinge it is to argue ab authorita â— neâ—a ua Produce you some aun ient creede where the churche is called the christian churche which thoughe you cannot doe yett I hope you will not denie the catholicke churche to be rightlie so called Neither is the Roman church taken for a parte of the catholike churche as you either falselie or foolishlie surmise but for the whole as the kinge of England is not taken onlie to be kinge of Englande but of the rest of his kingdomes also the whole takinge name of one parte as is ordinarie euen in common speach which you cannot be ignorant of PILK Yett you say this vniuersall particular churche admitteth a larger Canon then the protestants you meane the Apocripha And so it standeth her in hand otherwise shee might bid a dieu to diuerse profitable points that helpe her to vphoulde her Monarchie But the churche of God before Christ receiued them not but the same which the protestants doe embrace Neither read we that Christe or anie of his Apostles did cite anie testimonie out of them to confirme any doctrâ—ne by them which they did out of all the canonicall bookes Besides if we followe S. August iudgment whereby we may discerne suspitious writinge from canonicall then these wil easilie appeare to be conterfaites First saith he they are not such as the churche credited received into canonicall authoritie Secondlie there be manie thinges imbarked in them which Apostolicall rule of faith and sound doctrine doth contradict both these are verified of the Apocripha For neither the churche of God before Christ receiued them to whom were committed the oracles of God Rom. 3. 2. which Christe woulde haue reprooued them for if they had without iust cause reiected them as well as he did reprehend them for the misinterpretinge of the canonicall bookes neither yett longe after Christe did the Christian churche imbrace them And besides in the bookes them selues there are certaine brandes whereby they may be discerned from the canonicall First the addition vnto the booke of Hester saith that Mardocheus had receiued rewardes for the detection of the conspiracie of the kinges Chamberlaynes the true Hester sayth he receiued none The suppositius Hester saith that Haman intended the the destruction of Mardocheus for detectinge the Eunuches Hest. 12. 6. The true Hester saith for denyinge him worshippe Hester 3. 5. The true Hester the kinge looked gratiouslie vppon her the conterfeit he looked angerlie The booke of Baruch saith that the cittie of Hierusalem was taken and burnt at the same tyme Ieremie teacheth the contrarie the bookes of the kinges The additions vnto Daniell say that when Danyell deliuered Susanna he was a childe the true Daniell saith that he with two others made by the kinge were chiefe ouer 120. princes that they might take all the accompts of the kingdome and the kinge might not be troubled But children vse not to be sett ouer such affaires Commentitiues Daniell saith in the storie of Bell that he was fed by Abacucke 14. 36. whereas Abacucke prophesied longe before the captiuitie 1. 6. In the booke of Tobie cap. 12. 15 the Angell calleth himselfe Raphaell the Angell of the Lorde but chapter the 5. 12. he is of the kinred of Ananias and Azarias the greate if he be the Angell of the Lorde he cannot be the sonne of a man As true is that medecine wherwith the deuill is driuen away but corporall creatures vse not to make anie impression into a substance simply intellectuall as deuills be In Iudith the cruell murther committed by Symeon and Leui is propounded to be imitated cap. 8. 23. which Genesis the 49. is reprehended and accursed The booke of wisdome is falselie intituled as it had been composed by Salomon whereas the author of it was Philo the Iewe. Ecclesiasticus craueth pardon if he come shorte in some wordes which the penmen of the holy Ghost vsed not to doe In the bookes of the Maccabies a parricide is commended that layde handes on himselfe which is forbidden by the lawe So your longe Canon hath but certayn inches that are true and perfect the rest are but leaden and crooked yet for all this you say CHAMP That the catholike Romane churche admitteth a larger Canon that is as the Manuall saith moe bookes and parcells of the Bible for holy scripture then the protestants doe is so manifest that you dare not denie it Nowe whether these bookes and parcells of bookes be apocripha or noe is in controuersie you affirminge them so to be and we denyinge it Which question cannot here be disputed or discussed for confoundinge of matters Onlie this I say by the way to your obiections made against them that if you doe stand to S. Aug iudgment in this pointe to whome you make shewe to appeale the cause is lost on your parte and if you will not beleeue me reade his seconde booke de Doctrina Christiana cap 5. 6. and be your owne iudge Againe your exceptions against the bookes in controuersie are such as if they were admitted for sufficient to prooue them Apocripha I dare vndertake to prooue all or the most parte of the bookes in the Bible to be Apocripha And this I will make good whensoeuer you dare vppon equall conditions to chalenge me therunto See therfore I pray what a friende you are to the holy scripture that open such and so wide a gappe to take quite away all scripture And this shall suffice for answere to all your tedious discourse in this section Manuall Catholike position the first That all such articles as by her the Catholike Roman churche and the protestants are beleeued and holden for articles of faith are not so expressely contayned in the holy scriptures as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof PILK This position is so doubtfullie sett downe as if of purpose you would walke in a cloude that your reader might not perceiue you For if by expresselie you meane wordes and sillables then it is true that all articles of faith are not contayned in holy scriptures in so manie wordes but if you meane the sence and substance and that which may be deduced by necessarie consequence then it is
Moreouer were it certainly knowne vnto vs that S. Mathewe wrote the gospell we haue vnder his owne name as it is nowe by tradition and the churches authoritie yett vnles it were further certaine that he wrote by diuine inspiration which without some diuine testimonie we knowe not it could not be certaine to vs that his gospell is the word of God Nowe if you had lefte out of the number of those that haue called the scriptures into questioÌ„ Iesuites and putt in theire place Lutherans or Protestants your wordes might haue passed for currant But tell me in the small honestie of a protestant minister did you euer knowe that anie Iesuite called anie booke of scripture into question or doubte you cannot thoughe you burst your selfe giue an instance Whereas you doe not onlie call manie bookes of the holy Byble into doubt but absolutlie reiect them as Apocripha and your Grand father Luther with his truer disciples doth manie moe euen of those which you say is madnes to call into question Hath malice so blinded you and wilfull rage against the truth made you so madd that you feele not the deadly woundes which you geue your selfe whilst you strike or at least thinke to strike your aduersarie PILK But what iuglinge is this we beleeue these bookes to be theirs whose names they carrie for the authoritie of the churche that is the Pope who is S. Peeters successour and holdeth all his authoritie from him and yett we cannot beleeue S. Peeter himselfe that this Epistle is his but because the present Pope hath so determined it CHAMP I cannot say that you iugle here you are so grossely impertinent and hoodle vppe so manie apparant absurdities in these fewe wordes Where learned you I pray you that the Pope is the churche or that he holdeth all his authoritie from S. Peter and not from Christ himselfe Againe where doth S Peter testifie that this is his Epistle haue you or anie of your reformed bretheren heard him say it no such thinge Seeing therefore neither you nor anie man nowe a liue euer heard him testifie anie such thinge what great iuglinge is it I pray you to beleeue a liuely and liuinge witnes assisted by the spiritt of truth and taught by those who lineallie descended from S. Peter testifiinge that these are S. Peters writinges rather then to beleeue a doombe paper or parchment which might be written by some other as well as other thinges that went a broade vnder the same Apostles name And by that which hath beeÌ„ hitherto sayde on both sides you may see if you will not shut your eies that you may not see that it is cleare notwithstandinge all your childishe ianglinge that all articles of faith are not contayned in scriptues otherwise then is mentioned in the position of the Manuall nowe lett vs see your answere to the other proofes of the same position PILK To your second instance we say with Saint August that we are not willinge to moue anie questions aboute the Mother of God for the honour we beare vnto her sonne Yett sith you stirre the coales we answere that it is an highe pointe of our faith and sufficientlie prooued in the scriptures that Christe was borne of an intemerat Virgin but whether after his birth shee were knowne of Ioseph thoughe the negatiue be a seemelie and reuerend truth yett we say with Basill that it toucheth not our faith CHAMP You woulde seeme to be religiouslie affected towardes the blessed Virgin but notwithstandinge you minse S. Aug wordes least you shoulde doe her too much honour his wordes are these De Maria propter honorem Saluatoris nullam cum de â—eccatis agitur habere volo quaestionem And in the end you are content rather to incline towardes the old heretike Heluidius then to beleeue with the holy catholike churche concerninge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed Virgin Where is nowe I pray you your rule of faith before mentioned non credimus quia non legimus I coniure you vppon forfeiture of your honestie and integritie either to reiect that rule as noe sufficient grounde of faith in anie article or else to beleeue that the blessed Virgin was neuer knowne of anie man Take whether parte you please you shall geue sentence for me against your selfe PILK Your thirde instance is no article of faith but â— Canon of manners so in the number not of thinges to be beleeued but to be donne Wherein thoughe to the Apostles for the auoydinge of scandall for the eatinge of thinges strangled and blood yett when the offence was remoued the eatinge was allowed Rom. 14. 14. 1. Tim. 4. 4. and Saint August prooueth it out of S. Mathewe cap. 15. 17. 18. CHAMP Are you so blockishe that you doe not or so peruerse that you will not see the difference betweene the practise of anie thinge and the doctrine of the lawfulnes of the same practise Whereby you might be taught that thoughe the first be not an article of faith yett the second may be For example thoughe it be not an article of faith for two single persons to marrie together but a matter of practise yett is it a matter of faith that they may lawfullie marrie together as I hope you will not denie and so in fiue hundreth more thinges That the Apostles did make that prohibition for a tyme onlie and not to continue euer where is it written or whence haue you it but by the churches authoritie interpretation The places of scriptures by you cited were they to the purpose as they are not woulde be sufficient arguments to make some of the bookes doubtfull as coÌ„tradictinge the one the other were there not a iudge to reconcile them and bringe them to attonement togeather And thus you see all the three instances brought in proofe of the catholike position in the Manuall to remaine firme and solide and your euasions to be childishe wranglings without truth or substance PILK Thus you see you fight against God when you warre against the perfection of holy worde Which that you may more plainlie perceiue in the last place I will sett downe the protestants doctrine not in such double tearmes as you deuised but theire owne wordes as they haue positiuelie deliuered with the seuerall authorities of holy scriptures whereby they confirme it and testimonies of fathers whereby they shewe the consanguinitie of it with the purest Christians For the positions sett downe by you are not by them acknowledged CHAMP If you deny my positions to be true as hauinge hitherto disputed against them you seeme to doe then must you of necessitie acknowledge the contradictorie to be true and maintaine them as yours vnles you will haue both contradictories to be false which no man yett euer hearde of But why doe you not put downe the positions which I call the protestants positions that the reader might see how iustlie you denie them to be yours I will supply your defect that the
of the catholique positions sett downe by me admitted and acknowledged as true and orthodoxe then is not the contradictorie position inforced or imposed vppon them to prooue But if they reiect all the Catholicke positions as false and erroneous as they will be found to doe then must they whether they will or noe acknowledge the contradictorie position to be theirs vnles they will graunt that both contradictorie positions may be true or both false which noe man euer yett admitted And thus much sir for your charge of forged positions in generall now we will examine the particular PILK POSITIO I. Forged positions All Articles of faith are contayned expressly in holy Scripture CHAMP Of this position thus sett downe it is true you say that it is forged but it is by your selfe not by mee for it is no where sett downe by me The position of mine which you aime at beinge this page 20. vnder this note Protestant position 1. All articles of faith are so expresselie contained in scripture as out of them onlie full proofe may be made thereof Which position if you will denie to be yours take here your owne wordes in witnes against you If you meane the sence and substance and that which may be deduced by necessarie consequence then it is false that full proofe cannot be made of all articles of faith out of scripture I am content to bringe your owne Testimonie onlie in a thinge so manifest without further proofe out of other of your owne sect Onlie I cannot sufficientlie marueyle what complexion you are of that haue so littell care and feelinge of your owne credit and of the cause you would defend that you committ so manie fowle fayles in so fewe lines Certainlie if you hold on in this manner you shall haue the prise of all either falle or foolishe fellowes that euer blotted paper but let vs proceede further PILK POSITIO II. All places of holy scriptures contayninge articles of faith are easie to be vnderstoode CHAMP You fayle in puttinge downe this position also so harde it is for you to deale honestlie which in the Manuall is sett downe thus All places of holy scripture contayninge articles of faith the obstinate misbeleefe where of is damnable are easie to be vnderstoode and therefore require noe rule to be interpreted by Which proposition you cannot denie to be yours without denyinge your selfe For doe you not remember that in your third Antithesis you say I contradict S. Epiphaniu for sayinge that the scriptures are darke and difficult to be vnderstoode why doe you therfore denie this position All places of scripture contain 〈…〉 matters of faith are easie to be vnderstoode here sett downe by you to be yours vnles you will also coÌ„tradict that holy Father which you falselie obiect vnto me but it is is a bootles thinge to tell you of contradictions they are so frequent with you Therfore to lett that passe that you may knowe if you were so ignorant in your owne doctrine as you knewe it not before that it is good protestant doctrine heare your Father and founder Luther what he saith of his matter We must geue this sentence the scripture beinge iudge that it is of it selfe most certaine most easie most open or apparant interpreter of it selfe proouinge all thinges iudgeing all thinges and illustratinge all thinges And in another place I say of the whole scripture I will haue noe part thereof to be obscure And this shall suffice for the present to purge me of forgerie in this matter hauinge more to say thereof hereafter when we shall come to speake of the article it selfe if we goe together so farre PILK POSITIO III. The true churche of Christ is not necessarilie Catholike or vniuersall neither in respect of tyme nor place CHAMP This position you sett downe trulie which I maruel that you denie to be yours Bycause the contradictorie position being admitted for true as it must necessarilie be if this be false your protestant churche which noe witt nor coninge can euer shewe to haue hadd either kinde of vniuersalitie must of necessitie be a forged or counterfait churche And for what other cause thinke you did Luther in the Creede turned by him into Dutch in steede of the Catholicke churche thrust in the Christian churche but to auoyde the force of the worde Catholicke which he did so dislike that his disciples in the conferrence att Altemberge reiected a certayne proposition ascribed to him wherein was this worde Catholicke â—lleadginge for a sufficient reason of theire so doinge because that worde Catholicke did not sauour Luthers phrase And for full proofe that this position is truly protestanticall reade the laborious booke De authore essentia protestanticae Ecclesiae authore Richardo Smitheo printed this yeare containinge tenne ineuitable demonstrations taken out of the protestants owne doctrine that Luther was the author of the sayde protestants churche whence it necessarilie is concluded that in theire doctrine the true church is not necessarilie Catholicke neither in respect of tyme or place PILK POSITIO IV. The true churche of Christ may be without a lawfull personnall succession CHAMP If you denie this position to be true in your doctrine then must you necessarilie graunt the contradictorie to be true which if you doe your newlie reformed churche will euidentlie appeare no lawfull churche And for further proofe of the want of succession of pastours in your Englishe Churche I referr you to my booke in answere to Mr. Mason which till it be answered I say answered indeede and not onlie replyed vnto in a heape of wordes as you haue donne to my Manuall I shall euer holde as a sufficient proofe and as for your Sister churches of Fraunce they make profession in theire verie confession of theirâ— faith that the state of the churche haueinge been interrupted it was necessarie that God shoulde raise vppe men by extraordinarie meanes to repaire his church a newe which was ruined Iudge you therefore whether they denie the position which you say is forged by me against you PILK POSITIO V. The lawfull succession of pastours may be without Consecration or authenticall mission by anie ordinarie power residinge in the Churche CHAMP If you houlde your Sister churches of France to be lawfull churches you cannot denie this position to be true in your doctrine as appeareth by theire confession euen nowe alleaged whereunto I referr you And as for the consecration of your pastours of your newe churche of Englande it is so farr from beinge ordinarie that it was neuer hearde of before Kinge Edwarde the sixt his raigne when first it was deuised as I haue euidentlie prooued in my booke against Mr. Mason And therefore thoughe you would seeme to denie this position in worde yett must you necessarilie admitte it in deede vnles you wil graunt freelie that which is true that you haue no true pastours att all PILK POSITIO VI. It is not necessarie for euerie mans
present churche which as a liuelie and liuinge iudge and interpreter hath power to interprete aswell the coūsells and traditions when there is doubte of them as it hath to interprete the scripture which beeinge added they are not subiect to anie farther doubte or delusion PILK Concerninge Tradition Eusebius will informe you that in the Cittie of Rome the rule of Ecclesiasticall Tradition was vexed with diuers nouelties and as for councells howe shamefullie your Popes woulde haue corrupted that of Nice the fathers of the first councell of Carthage haue formerlie manifested vnto the worlde and howe vainlie at this day your diuines delude the sixt Canon of the same councell purposely made to geue equall honour vnto the Patriarche to patronize your Popes Monarchie euerie bleare eie doth easilie perceiue CHAMP Your intention by inculcatinge these ould and ouerworne obiections I meane these of councells haue been answered an hundred tymes being onlie to deturne your reader from the subiect in hand and to drawe your aduersarie into like confusion of matters with you I will passe ouer those wordes of yours expectinge your confutation of the answeres alreadie to these same obiections before I will trouble my selfe to answere them againe before the first answeres be confuted by you That which Eusebius saith of vexinge traditions is true marry it was by such as your selfe and your fellowe hetetikes whose endeuours were frustrated by the catholike pastours see him reader and marueil at Mr. Pilkintons witt in citing him PILK Nowe when you cannot fullie prooue your faith out of scriptures you fall presentlie to wounde them with your slaunderous accusation that they are not able to conuince heretickes noe not such seelie ones as Legat not perceuinge how euenlie you iumpe with ould heretikes who whē they are conuinced by the scriptures fall to rayle on them as thoughe they were not right nor sufficientlie authorized but various and not full to finde the truth by them without tradition CHAMP Why doe you not I pray your answere the instance made in Legat ◠knowe well the reason you can as well answere it as you can beate downe Paules steeple with your fiste You call it in this same section a sheepishe obiection but that is onlie a caluishe solution And that heretikes cannott be conuinced out of scripture onlie hearken I pray you to aunciēt Tertullian who was better conuersant in these conflictes then either of vs yea then both of vs putt together thus he writeth The conflict with the scriptures profiteth nothinge but to turne either the stomacke or the braine For which he geueth this reason This herefie receiueth not certaine scriptures as the protestants for examples and if it receiue anie it araweth them to her purpose by additions and detractions And if it receiue the whole scriptures it depraueth them by diuers expositions Whereas the adulterous sence doth no lesse destroy the truth then doth the corrupted letter What wilt thou gaine then that arte cunninge in scriptures when that which thou defendest is denyed and that which thou denyest is defended Thou shalt indeede loose nothinge but thy voyce with contēdinge nor shalt thou gayne anie thinge but choler hearinge blasphemies The heretikes will say that we adulterate the scripture and bringe lyinge expositions and that they defende the truth Therefore must not appeale be made to the scriptures nor must the conflict be in them by which the victorie is either vncertayne or little certaine or none att all But lett vs nowe goe forwarde PILK But lett this be the first issue betwixt you and me whether scriptures onlie will fullie conuince heretikes wherein the negatiue is yours the affirmatiue mine and thus I double it out of the worde of God That which doth perfect the man of God to euerie good worke enableth him fullie to conuince heretikes for this is one mayne dutie of his callinge to conuince contradictours But the scriptures doe perfect the man of God to euerie good worke and particularlie S. Paule expresseth conuiction therefore they teach him fullie to conuince heretickes CHAMP I verie willinglie accept of your chalenge and am content to ioyne issue with you in this point desiringe no other iudge or vmpire of the victorie then your owne patron of Canterburie To your double therefore out of the worde of God I answere that the minor or seconde proposition of your argument is not out of scripture nor in it selfe true For the place of scripture which you ayme at is this All scripture inspired by God i◠profitable to teache to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the man of God may be perfect instructed to euerie good worke Out of which place if you woulde conclude anie thinge by lawfull argument you shoulde argue thus That which is profitable to teach to argue to correct and instruct in iustice that the man of God may be perfect instructed in euerie good worke is sufficient so fullie to conuince heretikes of theire errour that they cannot delude it by false interpretation But all scripture inspired by God is such therefore all scripture inspired by God is sufficient so fullie to conuince heretikes that they cannot delude it by false interpretation The conclusion of which argument is the issue betwixt you and me The medium you vse to prooue it are the wordes of the Apostle which if you had putt downe simplie and whollie and not dubled as you say by curtayllinge them you would easilie haue seene if you see anie thinge that they are as farr from cōcludinge your affirmatiue as the argument followinge is from concludinge that which is put in the conclusion thereof Marke it I pray you and learne to argue better especiallie when you dispute for the victorie in a matter of such moment as this is That which is proffitable to nourishe to exhilarate and conforte or strengthen man that he may be able to exercise all man-like functions and actions is sufficient to defende him from his enemies and to vanquishe them Butt al wines are such Therfore al wines are sufficiēt to defende a mā frō his enimies to vanquishe thē By which argumēt which is the verie same in forme that yours shoulde be if you would haue formed it out of the Apostles wordes you see if you onlie are not blinde how ridiculouslie you double your affirmatiue out of gods worde Besides your argument is for diuers other respects either foolishe or fraudubent For S. Paule saith that all scripture that is euerie parte parcell of scripture is profitable to teache c yet you will not I hope say that euerie parcell of scripture is sufficient to conuince heretikes Agayne the Apostle speaketh manifestlie of such scriptures as Timothy had learned from his childehoode which without controuersie were onlie the scriptures of the old testament of which you will not affirme that they are sufficient to conuince all heretikes And so you see the liuinge wherewith you woulde double your affirmatiue to be so
more subiect to errour nowe then shee was at that tyme. Therfore that which Driedo saith is that the primatiue churche by reason of the colledge of the Apostles had power to deliuer newe doctrine of faith which the succedinge church hath not but hath infallible authoritie to teache that faith which shee receaued of the Apostles And this you might easilie haue seene to haue been Driedoes Doctrine if you had taken but anie ordinarie heede to his wordes PILK Neuertheles to passe by this to graunte that S. Augustin a Catholicke and a Bishoppe woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him is euerie motiue to beleeue a rule of faith Nothinge lesse For the rule is that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued which is not into the authoritie of the churche as your best diuines teach but into the scriptures CHAMP You might well haue past by all this indeede and also that which followeth had you not rather chosen to fil your paper with your impertinencies to the publishinge of your owne small iudgement If you take the rule of â—aith so strictlie as it contayneth onlie that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued you will make onlie God reuelinge his verities to be the rule of faith and then you must exclude not onlie the churche but the scriptures also But if you take it for a true ground of beleefe then that testimonie which so moueth to faith as it ingendreth faith in vs may trulie be sayde to be a rule of faith such a motiue S. Aug saith the churche is PILK And there vppon Cameracensis speakinge of this place of S. Aug saith that it proueth not that he beleeued the gospell thoroughe the churches authoritie as by a Theologicall principle whereby the gospell might be prooued true but onlie as by a cause mouinge him to creditt it as if he shoulde say I woulde not beleeue the gospell vnles the holynes of the churche or Christes miracles did moue me In which sayinge thoughe some cause of his beleeuinge be assigned yet no former principle is touched whose creditt might be the cause why the gospell shoulde be beleeued CHAMP It appeareth well you vnderstande not what Cameracensis saith or else that you care not what you say so that you say somethinge He saith the scriptures are not prooued by the authority of the churche as by a Theologicall principle or argument ab intrinseco but as a motiue from authority or ab extrinseco which is that all men say and which I only desire to prooue by S. Augustines testimonie For if the church be a motiue to beleeue the scriptures it must necessarilie be before the scriptures and consequentlie be a more vniuersall rule cause or motiue of faith and beleefe then the scriptures PILK Bellarmine saith that S. Aug. speaketh these wordes of the authoritie of the churche as of a cause propoundinge what is to be beleeued and not of the foundation of faith But the proposition of the churche is not the rule and resolution of faith but onlie a condition requisite of beleeuinge as Valent. teacheth in 22. tom 3. de obiecto fidei CHAMP It is a most irkesome and importunate thinge to haue to doe with with an ignorant aduersarie that knoweth not what he shoulde either prooue or denie Such an one you shewe your selfe to be For if you take from the scripture which you trulie teache to be a rule of our faith the authoritie to propose manifest and testify articles of beleefe see howe you will make it a rule of faith Seeinge therefore you geue to the churche these thinges without which the scriptures are not a rule of faith why should you deny it to be also a rule of faith But the churche you say is not the foundation or resolution of faith I speake in your owne phrase thoughe improperlie that you may vnderstande and therfore is it not anie rule thereof If this argument conclude anie thinge it will also prooue the scriptures to be noe rule of faith For it is neither foundation nor resolution of faith if you vnderstande the first and chiefe foundation or last resolution as I tould you before vnles you will make it to be God himselfe But if you take foundation for that which doth grounde our faith in a certaine and sure kinde of infallible testimonie in which sence al men speake that knowe what they speake theÌ„ are both the scriptures and the churche also foundations and groundes of our faith PILK And surelie if S. Aug had meant that the authoritie of the churche had beene this rule which is your inference he had excluded all other rules For he that saith I would not beleeue excepte the authoritie of the churche moued me establisheth one cause remoueth the rest But this none of you dare accorde vnto is as farr from S. Aug. meaninge as your next wordes are from truth If therefore the authoritie of the churche be a sufficient motiue for a motiue it is which none of vs euer denyed but that it is a sufficient motiue neither canne you prooue nor yett S. August anie where auoucheth CHAMP S. Aug. wordes which are to be beleeued before your bare negation are most cleare that without the testimonie or authoritie of the churche he hadd not beleeued the Gospell and consequentlie that the churche was cause rule and motiue of his beleefe not in that degree that God is the rule or foundation of our faith for so we shoulde make S Aug. as sencelesse as Mr. Pilkinton but in the like kinde or degree that the scriptures are but yett before the scriptures because he beleeued them for the churches authoritie And therefore you see S. Aug. to say that which the Manuall saith that there is some other rule of faith before and more vniuersall then the scriptures seeinge that for it and by it the scriptures are beleeued MANVALL SECTIO 8. The second thinge to be noted is that they which beleeue nothinge but that which is prooued by scripture are euidentlie conuinced to beleeue nothinge at all For they that cannott beleeue that there is an holy scripture or what bookes be holy scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture for it is euident that before they beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture they must first beleeue that there is a holy scripture and what bookes are scripture But they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannot beleeue that there is a scripture nor what bookes are holy scripture For neither of these two canne be prooued by holy scripture Therefore they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge att all This argument is a playne demonstration and compelleth the protestants either to confesse that they haue noe faith att all or to acknowledge this their position to witt that nothinge ought or can rightlie be beleeued but that which may be prooued
it necessarie to beleeue that they wrote the wordes thereof and then it is not to the purpose to proue your positioÌ„ which is of thinges to be beleeued and not of wordes But if by the creede you vnderstande the matter of it and thinges to be beleeued then it is vntrue that the Apostles writte it not and all thinges contayned therein which thinges haue continued in our churche as the obiect of our faith not for tradition onlie as you ignorantly say but because they are recorded in the holy scripture CHAMP Shewe me then in theire writings I meane the Apostles the discention of our Sauiour into hell and the catholicke churche which Luther loued so little that he turned it the christian churche Thoughe we beleeue not onlie the parcells of the creede but the whole creede together And that the Apostles made it which is no where expressed in scripture And if I say ignorantlie that the creede as it is composed by the Apostles and therefore receiued and beleeued of all christians in al ages hath continued in the church vntill this day by tradition only shewe it me written in the scriptures and I will confesse myne ignorance and correct my wordes But seeinge you cannot performe that I tell you that you impudentlie affirme that it hath other continuance then by tradition opposinge tradition to the canonicall scripture onlie Manuall Proofe 7. They taught Baptisme administred by heretikes to be good and therefore S. Aug. speakinge thereof saith Manie thinges which are not found in the Apostles writinges nor in the latter councells yet because they are obserued by the whole churche are beleeued to be deliuered and recommended by none but by theÌ„ Againe he saith There are manie thinges which the whole church doth hold and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written PILK That Baptisme ministred by heretikes was preached by the Apostles but not written hath as much truth as the rest For whereas Cyprian hath taught that Baptisme of heretikes was not good and therefore to be reiterated S. Aug. crosseth him and prooueth the contrarie out of the ghospell and out of the wordes of the Apostle Ephe. 4. And this is so frequent with that father that it maketh me thinke you haue not read him of that argument but gleaned out of others that might serue your turne So pâ—lpably are you deceiued to thinke that S. August conceiued this to be an vnwritten tradition without ground of scripture for thus he writeth That I may not seeme to prooue it by humane arguments I will bringe foorth certayne documents out of the scripture And whereas Cyprian had taught that for proofe of this we must haue recourse vnto the fountayne of Apostolicall tradition that is the scriptures S. Aug approoueth it and saith that the Apostles deliuered that there is one God one Christe one baptisme and therefore baptisme of heretikes is firme and not to be repeated When then he saith of this as of other thinges that they are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in latter councells c. And there be manie thinges which the whole churche doth holde and therfore are well beleeued to be commended by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written Which wordes are in his 2. booke contra Donatistas cap. 7. and not lib. 5. cap. 27. as you cited them His meaninge is they are not written in so manie wordes but the groundes of them are layd in the scriptures and thence necessarilie they may be concluded This is playne out of Aug. for hauinge vttered these wordes vrged by you when he draweth to an ende of this disputation he thus concludeth It might suffice that our reasons beinge so often repeated and diuerselie debated and handled in disputinge and the documents of holy scripture beinge added and so manie testimonies of Cyprian concurringe By this tyme I thinke the weaker sorte of men vnderstande that the baptisme of Christe cannot be violated by the peruersnes of the partie that geueth or receiueth it Loe howe be bringeth documents out of scripture to prooue that the peruersnes of heretikes peruerteth not the baptisme of Christe and therfore baptisme ministred by hereticks is good CHAMP Is it be written by the Apostles that the Baptisme of heretikes is sufficient and not to be reiterated why doe not you shewe the place and confound your aduersarie But you had rather impudeÌ„tlie affirme an vntruth theÌ„ ingeniously acknowledg a cleare veritie As thoughe if it hadd been so clearly fully taught in holy scripture as you are bound to shewe it S. Cyprian who had a much iudgmeÌ„t to discerne it as you att least and noe lesse good will to acknowledge it nor yett lesse industrie and diligence to seeke it could not he haue esped it And howsoeuer here you wilfullie wrangle out of S. Aug as though he acknowledged not the Baptisme of heretikes by tradition yett two pages after you in expresse wordes confesse that he saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes are written in scripture And though you interpret him both here and there to meane that they are not founde written in so manie wordes but that the groundes notwithstandinge from whence they may be necessarilie concluded are layd in the scriptures yett is this your glosse meerelie voluntarie clearlie against S. August meaninge and common sence Or iâ— not why doe not you frame some argument which by necessary consequence may conclude out of the groundes layd in scripture abstractinge from the authoritie of the churche and tradition either of these two articles But it is more easie for you to affirme twentie positions then to prooue one Manuall catholike position 2. The Catholike churche doth and ought to beleeue those thinges which the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth without writinge in the same degree of faith with those that are written PILK For answere vnto this lett the iudicious reader obserue that it is the vsuall doctrine of Papists to teach that all points of Christian beliefe which are necessarie for all men were publikelie preached by the Apostles to all men and recorded in the register of holy scripture But besides these there were diuers thinges committed to prelats and priests that were more perfect men which they taught them a parte accordinge to that which S. Paule saith we speake wisdome amonge them that are perfect And these be theire traditions which they would haue equallie credited with the scriptures Nowe this was the verie doctrine of the auncient heretikes Valentinians Cerintheans Marcionists c. For abusinge the scripture and aduancinge traditioÌ„s grounded on the same foundation as the fathers tell vs. And these be thinges which the protestants denie to be equall with the scriptures for they graunt that the Apostles in the beginninge of theire embassage write not the whole doctrine which they preached but deliuered parte by worde of mouth and parte by writinge howbeit they consigned the Canon of the scripture and