but also by the inward heavenly comforts and spirituall strength which they thereby and from thence receive doe sensibly perceive that Gods hand is with them and he doth in them speake to their consciences then they need no more the judgement of the Church nor of any externall judge to assure them that the Scriptures are Gods true infallible word for though all professors in the world or an Angell from heaven should preach and affirme the contrarie they will not assent unto them but rather count them as Anathema and accursed as the Apostle commands Gal. 1. 8. Mr. Fisher. They who are true Catholikes and rest upon the judgement of the Church have as much assurance and certaintie of the truth of the Scriptures as is needfull from the testimonie of the Church for they build vpon the rocke against which the gates of hell cannot prevaile But you teach men to build their faith on their owne private spirit and you are lead every one of you by his owne conceit which is the cause of so many sects and schismes and severall opinions among you every one assuming to himselfe presumptuously such an infallibilitie of judgement in matters of faith as doth not belong to any private man neither can bee attained unto by the common and vulgar sort of Christians Mr. Walker You shew your selfe by this speech of yours to be not onely a meere carnall man such a one as hath never felt the lively worke of Gods spirit in his heart nor tasted of the heavenly gift but also a brutish man corrupting that reason and darkning that light which by nature is in you which I will evidently shew divers waies First you preferre the externall testimonie of the Church before the internal testimonie of Gods spirit and make it a more sure rocke to build on than the Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth Secondly you seeme to exempt and exclude the common sort of Christians and all private men from the communion of the Holy Ghost and from that gift and grace and inward worke of the spirit by which they are illuminated to see and perswaded to beleeve the truth of Gods word every one particularly in his owne soule and with his owne heart contrary to the Scriptures which teach that the spirit of Jehovah resting first and originally on Christ the head Isa. 11. 2. is from him inspired and infused into all and every faithfull member of his body the Church Rom. 8. 9. in such sort that they are said by that one spirit to be baptized into one bodie whether they be Iewes or Gentiles 1 Cor. 12. 13. and their bodies are said to be temples of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in them 1 Cor. 3. 16. and 6. 19. and by this spirit they are said to have the gift of knowledge and faith 1 Cor. 12. and to be led into all truth Ioh. 16. Thirdly you call the holy spirit of Christ which we challenge in Christ by a common right as common to all the elect and which doth worke the same faith and knowledge in every particular Christian by the name of a private spirit wherein you shew most palpable ignorance overspreading your carnall eyes and possessing your carnall heart For that spirit which flowes from that one common fountaine of all goodnesse even God the Father of all and is sent forth in and through the name of that one common Mediatour and Saviour of the world his Sonne Iesus Christ which is also the same in Christ the head and in the whole universall bodie of the elect and faithfull and doth worke in all and every one particularly the same common knowledge of the same truth and the same common faith in the same promised seed And all this by no private motions or inspirations separated from the word of God but onely by that common meanes even the word of Christ spoken by his mouth and written by his Prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament this spirit can in no case be called a private spirit For it is the propertie of the Holy Ghost the true Comforter to come from the Father in the Sonnes name and to teach the truth and worke faith by the common rule and meanes of the Scriptures and not to speake of himselfe new things which Christ had not spoken before but onely to speake what he hath heard and so to receive of Christs and to give to us and to lead us into all truth by calling to our mindes the word spoken by Christ and recorded in the Scriptures and by writing it in our hearts as our Saviour plainly testifieth Ioh. 16. 13 14. This spirit which is discerned by these properties we challenge to our selves by the common right of the elect in Christ and he it is who doth testifie to our spirits that the holy Scriptures are the true infallible word and doth transforme our soules into the obedience of them and doth worke in us that same faith by which all the Saints have beene justified and saved from the beginning of the world But now as I have shewed you which is the true spirit of God common to all the elect and faithfull and that by his properties observed from the words of Christ our Saviour and also that the spirit of Protestants is that spirit So I demand of you whether you Papists have any such spirit working in you that faith and knowledge of the Scriptures which you build on the testimonie and authoritie of the Church If you say that you have no such spirit but are led every one by his owne sense then are you carnall and sensuall men not spirituall by your owne confâ—ssion If you say that you have the spirit moving every one of you particularly to rest on the judgement of the Church of Rome and causing you to beleeve that the Pope cannot erre and that the Scriptures which he doth commend unto you are therefore Gods word then I would know of you why that spirit so resting and working in every particular Papist should not be esteemed a private spirit as well as that which works in every Protestant Mr. Fisher. Your spirit is a private spirit because he leads every one of you into severall opinions and private interpretations of Scripture which have never beene received in the Church nor commonly acknowledged of the godly Fathers and Doctors Mr. Walker If you have no more to say for your selfe than this I shall easily convince you by your owne mouth and prove from your owne words that the spirit of Papists not the spirit of Protestants is indeed a private spirit For first our spirit perswades us to receive for Gods infallible word no other Scriptures but those which by the common consent of all the ancient Fathers and of all sorts of Christians even of you Papists your selves are held for Canonicall but you Romanists receive divers Scriptures for Canonicali which by S. Hierome and other Ancients and by all the reformed Churches
the paper and under the first assertion which hee had before granted viz. That they who teach doctrines contrarie to Gods word are not lawfull successors of the Apostles hee writes an ambiguous answer in these words I grant but Catholikes doe not so Mr. Walker Against this answer Master Walker excepted that it was an equivocation and might bee vnderstood two waies either thus I Fisher out of my private opinion or for some purpose grant this proposition to bee true but it is not granted by Catholikes generally or else thus I grant that they who teach doctrines contrarie to Gods word are not true successors of the Apostles but Catholikes doe not so teach If you meane the first way and in the first sense you doe but mocke us But if you speake in the latter sense your answer is more than needs and is a denying of an assumption which I have not yet expressed viz. That Catholikes doe teach doctrines contrarie to the Scriptures If by Catholikes you understand all such as hold the true Catholike faith I doe not neither will charge them with that which you denie before hand But if by Catholikes you understand Papists your conscience doth accuse you before hand and I will prove that supposed assumption which you denie to wit That the Papists teach doctrines contrarie to the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. I pray you be not so hastie let us come fairely and easily to another chiefe thing unto which I labour to bring you which will bee more materiall as you shall see presently then taking the paper hee writes a fourth proposition in these words This companie of Doctors and Pastors succeeding one another appointed to instruct people in all ages and to confirme them in faith could not performe their duties without being so knowne in the world that all men of all ages might haue recourse to them and might learne from them all truth neither could they be so secret that all stories should bee silent of the Doctors and doctrines taught by them in all ages Mr. Walker This proposition when Master Walker had read with an audible voice hee asked the Iesuit whether it were his purpose to dispute upon it which hee affirming hee answered that it was not a fit proposition to be disputed because it contained a great number of questions and equivocations and being urged by the Iesuit to shew his exceptions against it hee noted downe these particulars First that it is absurd to hold that all Pastors and Doctors lawfully succeeding the Apostles were knowne in the world to all men of all ages for there be many thousands of such Pastors who were knowne to none but to the men of the ages in which they lived Secondly it is an error to hold that all the men of the ages in which they lived had recourse unto them and learned of them the truth for it is sufficient that their owne flocks even the sheepe of Christ did know them and heare their voice Thirdly men may bee true Pastors lawfully succeeding the Apostles though they teach not all truth but onely the maine points of faith necessarie to salvation Fourthly such true Pastors may bee so secret that all stories may bee silent of them and of their teaching and doctrine Fifthly though their names and doctrines were recorded in the stories of those ages yet the stories now extant may be silent of them because some Popes by name Gregorie the 7. did corrupt and deface all sorts of records and writings both civill and ecclesiasticall which made against their forged primacie pride and corrupt doctrine as Aventine testifies lib. 5. Annal. Boiorum By which meanes many ecclesiasticall stories perished and others are corrupted untill this day Mr. Fisher. To the first of these exceptions the Iesuit yeelded and limited his long speech by adding immediatly after the word ages this clause in which they lived Concerning the second exception he asked this question Whether none but the sheepe of Christ did know the true Pastors and heare them It was answered That it was enough that they were knowne and heard by the sheepe of Christ To which Fisher replied That their persecutors must needs know them and heare of their doctrine or else how coula they actually persecute them and their doctrine Master Walker answered That their persecutors did not know Christ to be the Lord of life nor them to bee his seruants nor the truth of their doctrine for then they would not have persecuted them onely such as in persecuting them did sinne against the light of the holy Ghost if there were any such persecutors they did know them and their doctrine To the third exception Fisher first yeelded and inserted after these words to learne from them all truth this clause in all the maine points necessary to salvation and then he asked what he did understand by a maine point Master Walker answered That by a maine point he understood that which the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament doe teach to bee necessary to salvation and require that we should so beleeve it To the fourth and fifth exceptions he gave no answer but labouring to decline the mention of them takes the paper and writes downâ— a cavilling demand concerning the maine points necessary to salvation in these words Name what particular points these are or give a generall definition by which all sorts even of Protestants shall agree to be such Which when Master Walker had read he answered to this effect Mr. Walker Now Mr. Fisher you doe shew your selfe in your colours what you are indeed and what I have ever since I first knew you suspected you to be even a very idle wrangling Sophister unskilfull in the art of Logicke and ignorant in the rules of disputation First if you demand a generall definition of a maine point necessary to salvation that I have given already when I wrote downe that it was that which the infallible Scriptures doe teach to be necessary to salvation But your words are senslesse in themselues and I cannot tell what you meane by this clause a definition by which all sorts of Protestants shall agree to be such This speech savours of distraction For no sorts of Protestants doe goe about to make themselves to agree to be maine points of truth necessarie to salvation we desire only to know beleeve and teach such points Mr. Fisher. Fisher thus caught in his owne net had no other way to winde out himselfe but onely urged Master Walker to name all the particular points which the Scriptures doe teach for maine points necessarie to salvation To which Master Walker thus answered Mr. Walker Indeed I commend your wit and wise providence for if you could perswade me to undertake the naming of all such particular points you know it would require more time than till to morrow night and by this meanes you should escape without disputation and sleepe quietly in a whole skinne this night But you shall not so escape For I
are and have beene censured for Apocrypha and so you are in this more private in your opinion than we Secondly we Protestants build upon no other rock but that which is common to all the faithfull from the beginning even God himselfe who is prima veritas the first truth and upon his word of promise made in Christ the promised seed and we are founded on the Prophets and Apostles who are the common foundation both to all the fathers in the old Testament and to all Christians in the time of the Gospell But you build upon a new rocke even the Pope of Rome whom yee call the universall Bishop sitting in Peters chaire a foundation which all the faithfull forefathers before the comming of Christ were ignorant of and never heard or dreamed Neither did the first Christians in the primitive Church for divers hundred of yeeres after Christ acknowledge any such name or title but even Gregorie the Great a Bishop of Rome who lived 560. yeeres after Christ condemned it as a note of Antichrist and his forerunner as by his epistles is manifest Thirdly though divers sects of Anabaptists Familists and Enthusiasts men of fanaticall spirits have growne up like tares in the field of the reformed Churches who follow their owne private fancies imaginations and divers inspirations of Satan which have no warrant from the Scriptures but are contrary to the written word yet they are not of us we renounce their society and expell them out of our Churches and say of them as the Apostle did 1 Ioh. 2. 19. They went out from us but they were not of us And as for the interpretations of some obscure Scriptures which Luther Calvin and other learned men have lately found out and doe finde out daily which were not knowne of old nor commonly received we embrace them not for novelty nor because they are singular nor for the authoritie of the expositors themselves but because we finde them to be agreeable to the originall text and to other plaine places of the same Scriptures and to containe the old and common doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and Prophets which hath beene beleeved and embraced in all ages of all true Christians But a great number of the articles of the Romish religion concerning Image-worship Canonization of Saints Purgatorie Pardons Indulgences Transubstantiation Massing sacrificing for the dead and such like they are builded vpon private visions apparitions dreames imaginations and fancies of Friers and upon singular inspirations of Monks and other doating persons slavishly devoted to your superstitions so that the Popish spirit is indeed the same with the private fanaticall spirit of Anabaptists and Enthusiasts as plaine reason and experience doe shew Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit taking little pleasure in the hearing of these things made great shew of a desire to breake off and to be gone onely he put on a bold and impudent face to deride the opinion of Protestants concerning the gift of the spirit by which particular Christians are enabled to know and beleeve the Scriptures and to be fully perswaded and assured of the truth and true meaning of them And as for you saith he to Master Walker it is well for you that you have such an infallible spirit which doth enable you to discerne the word of God and doth more assure you of the truth thereof than the publike testimonie of the Church But pardon us if we hold it doubtfull seeing we have no more but your owne word for it Mr. Walker Yea and I will have your word professing the same of your selfe also or else I will make you appeare to all here present to be void of all true Christianitie First you shall see that all your scoffs shall not make me ashamed to professe and to proclaime the grace and gift which God hath given me for the knowledge of his word and how I come to know it by the worke of his spirit Secondly I will urge you upon your conscience to answer me whether you have experience and feeling of the same grace in you That which I can with a good conscience testifie of my selfe I hold to be no singular gift but a grace common to all true Christians and it is this First I confesse that I was borne of Christian parents and my father and mother who tenderly loved me and were also of me dearely beloved did teach me the first principles of religion from my infancie and did tell me that the holy Scriptures contained in that Bible which was read and expounded in our Church were the true word of God I being not able to judge of it my selfe beleeved it so to be upon their word and authoritie for the reverent respect and esteeme which I had of them Afterwards they caused me to frequent the Church and to heare that word read and expounded by learned Preachers and told me that I ought to beleeve what I heard out of it preached in the Church and so I did for I beleeved the Preachers publishing that word in so much that partly by their exhortations and partly out of a care which I had of my soules health and in a desire of Gods favour and blessings which were thereunto promised I did even from my youth give my minde to reade and learne the Scriptures Howsoever I must confesse that at the first and in my childish yeeres I did finde but little savour sweetnesse in the most profitable parts of the Scriptures such as Davids Psalmes Salomons Proverbs the bookes of the Prophets the Epistles of the Apostles and such like yea though I beleeved that they were Gods word yet by reason of my naturall corruption I did take more pleasure and delight in Poeticall fables and feigned histories which did feed my corruption and were a kinde of fuell to my sinfull lusts and vanities Neverthelesse whether it was mine owne conscience urging me or the spirit of God which moved me I cannot certainly tell but sure I am that still I did upon the testimonie and authoritie of my Parents and Teachers reverence the Scriptures as Gods word and force my selfe to reade them contrary to my rebellious nature and at length when I came to more ripe yeeres I found that the word which was most opposite and distastfull to my sinfuâ—l corruption did worke upon me most strongly and effectually which is an infallible token of Gods hand in it and a sure signe of the divine power and supernaturall excellencie thereof I felt the promises of the Gospell and the words of the Prophets and Apostles which before had little relish begin by Gods grace to be most sweet and comfortable in all crosses and afflictions and to be most profitable by strengthning me with the spirit of prayer and faith against temptations by mortifying my fleshly corruptions and by reforming my life so that I began to rejoyce in the Scriptures more than in any earthly treasures and did devote my selfe to the studie of them and now partly upon the