and explaned Page 53. 54 The summe of the second answere touching the true meaning of the Scripture 1 The substance and soule of the scripture is the true meaning Page 59 2 The sense is not that which most hold but which is agreeable to the scripture ibid. nota 3 Papists make the Church the interpreter of scriptures that is first Bishops then Councels in their defect the Pope for he so challengeth it that whatsoeuer he thinketh that must be the meaning of it Page 60 4 It is very absurd to hang the sense of the scriptures vpon one mans iudgement especially vpon the Pope so vnlearned and absurd an interpreter as many of them haue bin Page 60. 61 5 They teach the sense of the scripture may be changed with the times and occasions Page 61 6 Foure senses of euery scripture made by Papists Page 61. 62 7 The manner of interpreting the scriptures amongst Protestants which is auncient and safe Page 62 8 Protestants do not exclude Christ from the supper as Papists falsely accuse them yet they include him not in it as Papists do his naturall body they place in heauen but the virtue communion and benefit of this body they exclude not but mainteâ—â— that whole Christ is present to each mans faith Page 63 9 Christ is as present in Baptisme and was to the Fathers as in the Supper ibid. nota 10 The popish and false interpretation of these words This is my body this my bloud confuted by the same rule whereby Campian would confirme them that is by conference of them with the words adioyning Page 64. 65 11 That the words of the sacrament bee figuratiue is proued by the induction of other sacraments Page 65. 66 12 There is no miracle in the sacrament Page 67 13 Papists affirme that the wicked eate the body of Christ as well as the beleeuer Page 67 14 All antiquity is on the Protestants side for the interpretation of the words of the sacrament against the Papists and so their transubstantiation is a new inuention Page 67 15 The testimonies of Tertullian and Augustine alleadged and of Theodoret. Page 68. 69 16 The testimonie of Macarius a Monke Page 70 17 Campian dealeth vnequally pressing the Protestants to leaue the iudgement of the scripture and stand to the iudgement of the Pope being an enemy to them Page 71 The summe of the third answere touching the nature of the Church 1 The true notes of the Church whose present being maketh a true Church whose absence marreth and ouerthroweth it are the word the whole and pure sacraments Page 77. 78 2 The Church is more hid and vnknowne then the Scripture Page 78. nota 3 The Church is euer and must be vpon the earth and oftentimes inuisible compared therefore of Augustine to the Moone Page 78 4 In the daies of Ahab and of Christ it was inuisible or scarce visible Page 80 5 Succession not necessary to the being of the Church for it hath bin and yet no Church as in the Church of the Iews Page 81 6 The small number of the faithfull as Christs 〈◊〉 Pag. 82 7 What is a visible Church Page 82. 83 8 Though perticular Churches are visible it followeth not that the Catholike Church is euer visible ibid. 9 The antiquitie of our faith and doctrine is from the Apostles time Page 83. 84 10 Superstitious growing vpon the Church Page 84 11 The growing of the Popes authority to the height it is now at 84. nota 12 The bringing of Images into the Church Page 84. nota 13 The Grecians not subiect to the Romish Church ibid. 14 The vow of virginitie not vnderstood by faith in S. Paul and what is meant by it Page 86. nota 15 To what Church the Protestants will subscribe Page 87 16 In the visible Church are both good and hypocrites in the inuisible only godly and faithfull men Page 88 17 The distinction of visible and inuisible make not two Churches but one and how they differ and what the Catholike Church is nota The summe of the fourth Answere touching generall Councels 1 Protestants with consent of antiquitie prefer the Scripture before Councels Page 94. nota 2 Nazianzenes hard censure of Councels Page 95 3 The first Councell hold by the Apostles and Church by necessarie consequent condemneth the multitude of popish ceâ—â—â—â—nies Page 96 4 Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time how would he complaine if he saw the multitude of popish ceremonies Page 96 5 Gregories speech expounded touching the foure generall Councels Page 97 6 The iudgement of the Church of England touching the foure generall Councels Page 98 7 The Popes may not haue Peters honour seeing they haue not his vertues and pietâ—â— 99 8 The Canon of the Councell of Nice vtterly ouerthrowed the supremacie of the Pope giuing him no authoritie ouer other churches no more then others ouer his Page 100. 101 9 The Councell of Calcedon doth not confirme the Popes supremacie but ouerthrowes it The Councell gaue to the church of Râ—â—â— greater prerogatiues because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire and not for any law of God and made the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome Page 101. 102 10 The Councell of Constantinople gaue vnto the sea of Rome the honour of precedence and place not of authority Page 103 11 The Councell of Ephesus ascribeth no more to the Bishop of Rome then to other Bishops ibid. 12 The Councell of Nice doth not establish the vnbloudie sacrifice of the altar for in the canon named there is no mention of sacrifice or altar Page 104 13 The Fathers haue called the Lords Supper an vnbloudie sacrifice because it is without bloud and not because no bloud is then shed Page 105 14 Saincts departed know neither vs nor the things we do or slâ—â—â—d in need of no reason then we should pray vnto them though the custome be auncient it hath no warrant Page 106 15 Saincts departed know our generall conditions as we theirs not our perticular state nota 16 S. Paul prayed not to the Romanes and Corinthians as Papists do to Saincts but required of them a christian dutie nota 17 The Councell of Calcedon admiâ—teth ministring Widowes who are but 40. yeares of age forbidding them marriage when as S. Paul would haue them 60. before they be admitted Page 107 18 Duraeus confesseth that in the first age they did not prefer continone is before marriage nota 19 They who haue vowed single life and cannot performe it haue done euill in vowing but not in marrying and for to vow things not in our power is to mock God Page 108 20 Chastitie and single life is not in mans power nota 21 Cyprian alloweth Virgins who haue vowed virginitie if they cannot liue honestly to marry Page 109 22 Campian maketh the Councell of Trent and other Councels equall with the foure Euangelists Page 110 23 Priuate men alleadging the scripture rather to be beleeued then the
and that when they were quite depriued of the thing it selfe they would needes though with much adoe keepe still the bare name in possession I solaced my selfe with the hope I conceiued of your ripe iudgements yea and I nothing doubted but that assoone as you should find out euen by their owne confessions these their iugling trickes you would straightwaies like plaine honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares framed of set purpose to worke your ouerthrow WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the third Reason WHat is it Campian you further bring vnto vs you propound vnto vs the nature of the Church wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vaine and childish oratorie neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuersitie men or answerable to the opinion that is held of you As touching the Church there are many questions and great controuersies and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head For your a DVR Jt is well that once you will acknowledge vs to be Catholiks WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name my meaning is to giue it you no otherwise thē vsually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes where nothing is but skinne and bone He is a Catholike not who followeth the popish Apostasie but that professeth the doctrine of Christ Catholikes being tossed with the boysterous stormes of other disputations haue been willing to take b DVR Is it so great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture reproue and refell your heresies you cry out you are the Church and by that thinks to defend all things though they be neuer so absurde harbor in this hauen of the Church Here they dwell here they place all their hopes of safety and victorie heere they hide themselues whensoeuer they are beaten out of the field Therefore they fortifie this sconce with all the skill they can and strengthen it with munition on all sides for which cause I maruell so much the more to find you from whom so great things are expected in this controuersie to be so sleight and shallow for you neither teach nor conclude nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours which hath in it either forceable reason or proofe But it may be this is but your first skirmish you will happely afterwards deale with vs hand to hand yet I wil trace you out in your owne steps that I may lay hold of you if happely I may find you any where certeine So soone say you as the aduersarie heard the Church but named he waxed wanne yea Campian it made him blush when he perceiued so chast holy a matron so impiously insolently to be abused by you The Church doth euer expell you and deny al commerce with you Yet you as very audacious importunate wooers giue not ouer your suite to compasse her Sure there was no cause why your aduersary should wax so wanne vnlesse he feared some euill measure from such cutthroats as you are Yet notwithstanding say you he hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well You will sure acquaint vs with some great and vnheard of matter verily I much desire to know what is this one thing yet I feare it will proue starke nothing and for all your throes you wil bring forth but a mouse As for the honorable praises of the Church you mention we both acknowledge those and speake far greater things of it but verily they agree not to your Church at all for it is the Babylonish whoore a branch cut off from the true Vine a denne of theeues a broad way leading to destruction the kingdome of hell the body of Antichrist a sinke of errors a great mother of fornications the Church of the wicked out of which euery Christian ought to depart which Christ shal one day fearefully destroy and giue her the iust recompence of all her sinnes In vaine then do you reckon vp the praises of the Church vnlesse you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church which you shall neuer be able to doe so long as Rome standeth He would not say you seeme to gain-say the Church hee kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it selfe by his definition he tooke quite away We verily Campian c DVR Why do you not then defend her authoritie but diminish and lessen it yea and horriblie blaspheme affirming that the spouse of Christ may erre and be deceiued WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme making the Church equall to God to whom it is only peculiar not to erre not be deceiued For the Church may erre though she be his Spouse but not persist in any deadly error as the Church of the Apostles did when shee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world yea and after shewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles reuerence and honor the Church as our mother and in our definition wee both retaine the name and cleerely set out the nature of the thing it selfe But you hauing lost the Church long since do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you why I pray you because we describe the Church by those properties which doe altogether darken and hide it Wee ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church whose presence make a Church and their absence marre or destroy a Church But what are those properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church to d DVR The Church is not to be sought for by these as by notes but they are to be learned from the Church WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached but in the Church nor the Sacramēts purely administred that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then Yea the contrary followeth because they are not elsewhere but in the Church therefore by these notes the true Church is to be knovvne and demonstrated For if only Peripatetians professe the Philosophy of Aristotle then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians and distinguisheth them frō all other sects of Philosophers DVR Thus to search out the Church is but to secke out one vnknowne thing by another which is more vnknowne WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture vvere more hidden and vnknovvne then the Church and the Scripture could better bee knovvne by the Church then it by the Scripture vndoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church and then is a ting hknovvne vvhen the cause is knovvne 2. I here are many and diuers Churches
Isay 19.21 Icrem 31.31 Ezeâ— 37.26 WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Hierusalem was not the Church of Christ what then happened vnto it which may not befall my others And for the Prophesies you recier they belong to the company of the elect and not to your popish Church to which the Lord neuer promised any such thing Christ verily will neuer endure that his Church should be abolished or perish but it is one thing for it to perish and another to lye hid for a time and not to bee seene he hath promised it shall euer be preserued not that it shall euer be visible and glorious DVR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall neuer be hid nor shut vp in a few nothing lesse for hee hath promised that wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in his name he will be in the middest of them Church of Hierusalem that though it had and by continued succession inioyed the name of the Church yet in very truth it was nothing else but a caue and denne of theeues I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it selfe why it may not be said long agot to haue lost the body of the Church though it keepe still the visard the name and the vestments of the Church What if the Romish Church condemned Luther shall we say therefore Luther is an heretike and that it is the Catholike Church The Church of Ierusalem condemned Christ and him and his they would haue denied to be the true Church if by any colour they could that they might free themselues out of those straights they were brought into But happily they will say there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church 2. Thess 2. But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasie that should be before Christs comming to iudgement i DVR The Fathers haue vnderstood the place of Antichrist or of a defection from the Romane Empire WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hierusalem a man you much esteeme Catech 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasie from the true faith so doth Chrysostome Oecumenius so many others Yea your Diuines of Rhemes haue so expounded it which Apostafie is from religion and the Church as the most auncienâ— Fathers do vnderstand it and Christ prophesied euidently of the small number of his Luke 18.8 When the Soune of man shall come shall he find k DVR Augustine de vultat Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith VVE vnderstand this speech either for the perfection of faith or for the multitude of the wicked or for the small number of the good So doth Hierome contr Luciferanoâ— WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistooke the place must we rest in their exposition we haue Nazianzene cont Arran Theophyla in 28. Luc. Caietan vpon this place against them nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked and the small number of the good doth he not defend our opinion that the number of the wicked shall be great but of the godly small faith on the earth If hardly any faith shal remaine on the earth and the Church cannot be said to be a Church but improperly without faith it followeth necessarily that when Christ commeth their number shall be very small who may truly be called the Church You haue now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vnto vs vnlesse you thinke your selfe better able to puttray it then the holy Ghost himselfe could do who hath set out the Church in farre better colours and manner then I find yours to be in which there is nothing left but painted walles But say you there are Epistles of Christ written to the seauen Churches which were in Asia there are also diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundrie Churches in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged What then Campian what think you may be inferred hereupon These were not knowne to God only but also to all Christians who euer denied that These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians Philippians Thessalonians Colossians to which Paul writ were particular visible Churches Did we euer seeme to make question whether a Church might be visible or no we verily call all those visible and apparant Churches which professe the pure word of God and hold those rights and Sacraments which are commaunded by Christ And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England Scotland Germanie Fraunce and other parts of Christendome though it greeue you Iesuits they should be so visible and apparant But what kind of reasoning is this l DVR All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church consisteth as on parts are visible therefore the Catholike Church it selfe is visible WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike are not visible because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only but of Churches of the times past and of those which shall be in the time to come But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only yet it followeth not that it must be visible nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible it cannot for when all the parts are growen into oâ—â— then is the whole visible but not each seuerall part so when the seuerall parts may be seene the whole caÌ„not be seen because the parts are noâ—â—ow become one So the coÌ„trary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible the whole cannot be seene Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible therefore the Catholike Church is euer visible Haue you learned such Logicke as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of Iesuits or doe you Campian thinke that these manner of Allegations should goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuersity men but where are those Churches now which were then so flourishing Shew me the Church of Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus Corinthes and the rest Now they are no where to be seene and are no loÌ„ger Churches And that which we haue seen already befal those Churches teach vs I pray you how it may not also betide the Church of Rome And though Rome become a heap yet the Church shall be safe neither shal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to abolish it And at this day there are many flourishing Churches which are equall to your falsly called Catholike Church for the number vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold But you say That for 1500. yeares we could not spie out one towne one village one house seasoned with our doctrine Nay Campian that is very false m DVR The Arrians Mâ—â—cedonians and all other auncient heretikes may by the same probability say as much WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures they may answere the same which we doe for euery Church which
fellowes digged out of their graues to helpe you in your desperate cause heare me Campian that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity offering also to yeeld you the victory if you brought one plaine and manifest authority out of any Father or Councell that same we do all professe and promise and will surely performe it Twentie yeares are expired and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto then your masters before haue had why stay you why sit you still why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause But alas you are no body you haue read nothing you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers or performed lesse then he promised but only that he had yeelded further vnto you then he needed and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures to the authorities of the Fathers which yet he did not as though he distrusted any thing the triall of Scriptures for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie which preuailed with many You say further that you haue conferred sometimes familiarly with Toâ—y Matthew and wâ—â—led him to answere freely whether hee that read the Fathers diligently could bee of that part which â—e fauoured Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things which we would not haue further reported or dispersed yet I doubt not but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere as was both agreeable to the truth and fit for his iudgement and wisdome Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers nor doth our faith depend vpon their word Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others yet may we reade them by their truthes be more learned by the contrary more wary And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers And this also is all our opinions After you haue thus finished your discourse you will now as you say without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies skirmishes warres campes and of your battailes but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides and the issues of battailes vncerteine The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes not in the stoutnes of words EDMVND CAMPIAN The sixt Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers IF euer that saying a Iob. 5. search the Scriptures was loued and liked of by any which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies and from destruction by their paines and teachings haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting with holy Scriptures And finally they exercised themselues euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors vppon the common practise of the Church vpon the succession of Bishops vpon generall Councels vpon Traditions of the Apostles vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs vpon the decrees of Preâ—â—â—s vpon strange signes and marnâ—â—â—â—us â—â—â—racles yet their greatest desire was especially to fill their treatises with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures These they vrge vpon these they make their habitation to these Scriptures as vnto the coate b Cant. 4. armor of valiant souldiers they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place like noble captaines daily desending the Catholike Church which is the citie of God by them kept in good repaire against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie the which thing maketh me the more to maruell at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures Doth he speake as he thinketh I will see then that these most famous writers most auncient Fathers and most holy men Saint Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzen S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ with the Prophets with the Apostles and with the whole furniture of the Bible Grant good Lord that that religion may * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England which those Fathers did had and defended raigne in England I say good Christ grant that that religion may raigne in England that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures Looke what Scriptures they bring wee will bring the same looke what Scriptures they conferre we will conferre the same looke what Scriptures they alleadge we will alleadge the same Art thou also contented with this cough out Sir a Gods name and tell me plainly what you thinke I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly what meanest thou by saying rightly ô now I know after thy owne fancy Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing Then for as much as I am in good hope that in the foresaid Vniuersities that most freshly flourish there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies not grosely but with sharpe iudgement and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially but in equall ballance I will therefore with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility force of Christs Church against a monkesâ— multitude of ragged Rogues WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the sixth Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers I Cannot wel coÌ„iecture Campion what these new foundations of the fathers may bee which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere and haue plainely prooued that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpoÌ„ And it is probable that you thought so your self therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the
but because he was forced to follow a fellow that rode a wilde goose chase The benefit of which epitomie may be this If you reade the summe of euery answere before you reade each particular answer it will well prepare you to conceiue of the answere it selfe if after which I could wish also you would doe then it will present to you the whole as it were in a mappe When you haue read both and the whole booke if at any time you remember some thing you would see more particularly and can but tell or make some nie coniecture in what answere it is laid downe with reading of one page you may finde in what 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 be found Finally let it incourage you the â—â—ther to reade this Treatise because you shall finde in it whatsoeuer is by our late Papists in their Pâ—â—phlets and Treatises which they haue audaciously sent abroad in these few last yeeres when the lawes haue been laid asleepe and the iust seueritie of them greatly qualified I say whatsoeuer is in them either obiected against our Church and doctrine or spoken in their owne defence is here to be found and a solid answere giuen vnto them if any thing would giue them satisfaction If you bee but well exercised in this one booke out of it you may gather some smooth stones as out of a brooke by which though you should not be enabled to hold any long warre with a cunning Papist yet you may smite him in the forehead and fell him groueling to the earth 1. Sam. 17. as Dauid did the vncircumcised Philistine The Apostle exhorts that we earnestly contend for the maintenance of the faith Jude vers 3. which was once giuen vnto the Saints A naked and vnarmed man may well contend but shall neuer be able to maintaine any thing committed to him but it will soone be taken from him so may I say for the truth it is not words but weapons and weight of diuine reason that must defend it therefore must euery Christian souldier that thinkes to haue the crowne take to him such armour as Gods Armourie will affoord him Now those weapons if so be you cannot fetch so readily in the word of truth it selfe because of your infirmitie they are here brought to your hand and you withall are led by the hand to the particular places where they are in the word it selfe Now the Lord of hosts strengthen you in the truth and arme you with his grace that you may be able to stand against all the enemies of your saluation 2. Tim. 4.7.8 and that you may fight a good fight and finish your course and keepe the faith that you may obtaine the crowne of righteousnes which the Lord the righteous Iudge will giue at the last day vnto all those that loue his appearing Yours euer in the Lord Richard Stock The summe of the answere to the first Reason which is holy Scripture 1 PApiste account themselues disarmed if they must fight onely with the scriptures Page 24. nota 2 Of the number of the Canonicall scriptures that Luther and Caluine and their followers haue put out none which antiquitie and the purest Churches haue receiued Page 26 3 Campian was an Apostata not Luther Page 26 4 Luther onely thought not basely of the Epistle of S. Iames but antiquitie also Page 27 5 All Protestants highly reuerence this Epistle of S. Iames. Page 28. 30 6 Luther neuer writ so contempteously of the Epistle of Saint Iames as Campian affirmes Page 29 7 S. Paul and the Fathers haue taught iustification by faith alone Page 30 8 The place of S. Iames expounded and prooued not to be contrary to the doctrine of iustification by faith onely Page 31 9 Not Protestants of late but the Fathers of old haue put out of the Canon Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of Machabees and diuers other bookes Page 32. 33 10 The Papists cannot defend the Articles of their religion by the Canonicall scriptures but are forced to flye to the Apochrypha Page 34 11 Duraeus contrary to the Councell of Trent denieth traditions to be of equall authority with the scripture Page 34 12 Protestants haue denied no one booke or word of any booke of Canonicall scriptures Page 35 13 Angels do defend the elect but their hirarchy and degrees are without warrant of the word and their worship flat against the word Page 35. 36 14 Man hath no frâ—â—will by nature Page 37 15 The bookes of the Machabees are reiected by diuers Fathers and the Laodicene Councell ibid. 16 Neither prayers to the dead nor for the dead are lawfull Page 38 17 Seâ—â—en bookes of the Apochrypha were put out of the Canon by Hierome a thousand yeares before Caluine was borne Page 39 18 The 3. and 4. bookes of Esdra sometime were highly accounted by the church of Rome Page 39 19 Protestants haue not cut out of the Canon sixe epistles of the new Testament but honour them much neither haue the Lutherans Page 40 20 Augustine and Hierome in their difference for the number of the Canonicall bookes reconciled Page 41. 42 21 Meliâ—o Bishop of Sardis though he put the booke of Wisdome in the Canon yet he excludeth all the rest Page 43 22 The Laodicene Councell forbiddeth the reading of those bookes which are without the Canon and alloweth only the reading of thâ—se which we put in the Canon of the old and new Testament 43.44 The Councell of Carthage allowed them only for manners nota for three hundred yeares these bookes were not in the Canon so confesseth Duraeus nota Page 43 23 The Councell of Carthage denied the Pope to be vniuersall Bishop Page 43 24 The Papists crueltie farre surpasseth the Protestants iust seueritie Page 45 25 The scriptures haue in themselues many proofes that they are the word of God but the certaine infallible and sauing assurance is from the spirit of God Page 46. 47 26 Campian scorneth the iudgement of the spirit in respect of the iudgement of the Church as if they were contrary Page 46. 48 27 The Church can make no writing Canonicall neither doth the authority of it depend on the Church It hath in it selfe his owne authority Page 48 28 Without the spirit a man may haue some knowledge of the scripture but no faith The testiments of the spirit as not 〈◊〉 confute others but confirms our selues Page 45. nota 29 The Lutherans did not onely surde somewhat lacking in the Apocalyps but ouen antiquitie receiued it not you reâ—ected it Page 50 30 Luther preferreth the Gospell of S. Iohn and Paules Epistles before the other Gospels and why Page 50. 51 31 What a Gospell is and who especially is an Euangelist Page 51 32 Campian slandereth Luther as touching S. Lukes Gospell Page 52 33 Beza hath no more offended in charging S. Luke with a solecisme then Hierome did in charging S. Paul Page 53 34 The words of institution in the Supper of the Lord a little examined
256. nota 68 A belieuing man may haue remission of his sinnes though the Minister who pronounceth it intend no such thing pag. 256 69 It is not the dutie of the Minister of the Gospell to reade prayers by the houre but to giue diligence to reading exhortation and doctrine pag. 257 70 Christians are bound to obey the lawes of Magistrates but are freed from the religion of them Their particular lawes binde not the conscience though men must obey their gouernment for conscience sake pag. 267. â—58 nota The summe of the ninth Answere touching the sophismes of the Aduersarie 1 Iesuits be chiefe Sophisters and kings of all other in the kingdome of Poperie pag. 263 2 The sophismes of the Papists by which they would ouerthrow the marriage of Ministers and Deacons pag. 264 3 Pope Innocent thought marriage dutie to be an vnholy thing ibid. nota 4 Their sophismes for the Popes supremacie and his excellencie aboue the Emperor that he is not to be reprooued that he cannot erre pag. 265. 266. 267 5 Though one Pastor haue rule ouer one flocke it followeth not one must haue ouer all ibid. nota 6 Their sophismes for priuat Masse the Priests communicating alone that the people must haue onely one part pag. 267 7 Their sophismes that prayers must bee in an vnknowne 〈◊〉 us that the people may not reade the Scriptures pag. 268 8 Their sophismes that the bread is Christs bodie and that it is to be worshipped that election is for merit ibid. 9 Their sophismes that the sicke should bee anoynted that marriage is a sacrament That a Monkish life is warrantable by the examples of Elias and Iohn Baptist but it is vnsound pag. 269. nota 10 Their sophismes that there are seuen Sacraments that images must be set vp in Churches That we are iustified by charitie and not by faith ibid. 11 Their sophismes that men haue free will that Christ deliuered the Fathers out of Lambus that the authoritie of the Church is aboue the Scripture pag. 270 12 Their sophismes that all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation That men passe thorough the fire of Purgatorie to eternall life pag. 271 13 The place 2. Thes 2.15 doth not establish traditioÌ„s ibid. nota 14 The 1. Cor. 3.15 doth not prooue Purgatorie ibid. nota 15 Some sophismes of Campians ibid. 16 It is no sophisme from the commendation of mariage to ouerthrow the vow of virginitie pag. 272 17 The Prelates haue spoken most basely and impiously of mariage like to the ancient Heretikes pag. 273 18 They prefer virginitie before it without any Scripture and yet they make it a Sacrament and virginitie none pag. 272. nota 19 Mariage is honourable in all and impure in to degree pag. 273 20 Protestats vse no sophisme in disputing against merits ibid. 21 Papists teach that their merits dipped in Christs blood doth merit saluation that is that Christ hath merited by his blood that men might merit saluation pag. 274 22 That good works cannot merit is proued ibid. nota pag. 275 23 Neither Angels can nor Adam could merit any thing ibid. nota 24 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against worship of Saints ibid. 25 Saints are not to be worshipped or prayed vnto 275. nota 26 Duraeus saith the Saints are in farre distant places at once 276. nota 27 Papists blasphemies touching the Virgin Mary ibid. 28 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against the Masse and Purgatorie 277 29 Neither Masse nor Purgatorie is to be found in the scripture neither the names nor the things are there ibid. 30 In the Supper thâ—re was no sacrifice neither now can be nor vnbloodie sacrifice 278. nota 31 There is neither the name nor the office of a Priest in the new Testament appropriated to any one kinde of men 279 32 There is no sacrifice in the Gospell but that which is common to all to offer 280 33 The Church hath lawfull power to chuse her Ministers 280 nota 34 The Papists choise of meate and their set daies of fasting are ridiculous and superstitious 281 35 The examples of Elisha Daniel and Iohn Baptist will not warrant Popish fasts 282. nota 36 S. Paul reprooued the Galathians for obseruing dayes and times because they accounted it necessarie to saluation as Papists doe now teach 282. nota 37 Papists fastings condemned by the 1. Tim. 4.23 and differ from the old Christian fast ibid. 38 Aeâ—â—â—s was not condemned of the Church as an heretike for iudging of fasting as Protestants doe 283. nota 39 Auncient Christians fasted voluntarily not by canon or precept ibid. 40 The word Sacraments are the true notes of the Church 283.284 41 The Fathers in the greatest matters are wholy the Protestants 285. nota 42 Papists preferre the Fathers before the Canonicall Scriptures ibid. nota 43 By Aquinas his iudgement things are necessarily prooued by the Scripture but only probably by the Fathers ibid. The summe of the tenth Answere touching all manner of Witnesses 1 It is Campians witlesse kind of reasoning wheÌ„ an enumeration of all kind of witnesses to coÌ„clude all are on his side 299 2 They only find the way spoken of Isay 35.8 who are taught by Christ and be holy 300. nota 3 In visible particular Churches are good and bad not in the inuisible Catholike Church ibid. nota 4 No Iesuite nor any Papist can be in heauen because they haue the marke of the beast 301 5 Many Bishops of Rome are in heauen but neuer a Pope ibid. 6 Ignatius was not on the Papists side because he taught that a Bishop was aboue a King for Protestants hold the same for the administration of the offices of a Bishop Yet the King aboue him in commaunding him to doe them and in puâ—â—shing him if he neglect them 301.302 7 Protestants receiue Traditions so long as they agre with the writingâ— of the Apostles ibid. 8 Neither Telesphorus reuiued nor the Apostles ordained the fast of Lent ibid. nota 303 9 The decretall epistles of the Pope were not framed by them but by their parasites ibid. 10 Iâ—enaeus allowed not the succession of Bishops in Rome but while there was succession of truth with it ibid. 11 Victor could not make the Churches of Asia keepe Easter after the manner of the Romane Church but the Councell of Nice preuailed more ibid. nota 12 The Church of Smyrna neuer gathered the bones of Polycarpe for reliques but to burie them 304 13 Cornelius the Pope could neuer abolish the error which Cyprian and the Church of Affrike did hold ibid. nota 14 Sixtus was no more on the Papists side then on the Protestants because he had Deacons to help him to celebrate diuine seruice ibid. 15 Helenâ— iâ—â—he found the Crosse yet she worshipped it not as Pâ—pâ—â—tâ— do aâ—d thâ—t with â—aâ—râ—a 305. nota 16 Monâ—â—â— deâ—ired not to be sacrificed for at the Mâ—â—â—e for remission of sinne but to be
Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustinâ— affirmâ—th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaesâ— 85 quaeâ—t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speakâ—th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself oâ—ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apochâ—ypha bookes which he wâ—uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill â—lmoâ—t 70â— yeâ—res afâ—er Christ Hierome Hieron iâ— Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accouÌ„ted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fiâ—st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see hoâ— you bewray your owne miserable â—esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apocâ—ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Woâ—d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine theiâ— sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5â— â—â—e do not affâ—me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of â—rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes oâ— the old and new Testamâ—nt See Decâ—et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and infâ—inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit
be quenched But you are alwaies harping vpon this string that they are bound by the lawes of a vowe Cyprian lib. 1. Epist. 1. 1. Pet. 1. therefore let Cyprian make you answere Å¿ DVR The words of Cyprian are not to be vnderstood of Virgins already consecrated vnto God but he willeth those who will not perseuere in virginitie that they doe not consecrate themselues to Christ but rather marry WHIT. pag. 343. Cyprian speaketh plainly of such Virgins as vvere alreadie consecrated for hee reprehendeth such as hauing consecrated themselues to Christ did liue incontinently and vvilleth them if they vvill not perseuere in chastitie to marrie lib. 1. Epistol 11. And Erasmus thought thus as appeareth by a marginall note of his Here marriages are permitted to holy Virgins If they haue by their vowe consecrated themselues to Christ 1. Pet. 1. let them perseuere honestly and chastely without any feined deuises But if they will not or cannot perseâ—ere their best course is to marrie And would Cyprian thinke you Campian haue giuen this counsell to Virgins if he had iudged such marriages wicked or no better than publike incest as you in your intemperate stile tearme it And indeed how much more honest course were it for you Monkes and Friers to auoid your too too publike and notoriously wicked fornication by imbracing chaste marriage for so it might come to passe Plus secund as your olde Pope Pius was wont to say That many of you might be saued in marriage which are now damned in single life But he that is filthie let him goe forward in his filthines vnto his olde age and let him that is holy â—lie vncleanenesse and prefer sanctimonie of life before vice and wickednes And these are the maine matters which you haue deliuered vnto vs in that your graue contestation and haue laboured to perswade by interposing the authoritie of Councels But you might haue considered Campian that the counterfeit names of Councels ought to be of farre lesse authoritie with vs then the most vndoubted truth of Gods word And whereas you further affirme that The Synods of other times and namely that of Trent are of equall authoritie and credit with those first Councels I must tell you I beleeue you not although you promise and take vpon you to proue it when need requires You promise indeed much but performe nothing But here I intreate the godly Reader and beseech all Christians that they would attentiuely marke what Campian here auoucheth to wit that all Synodes and namely that of Trent are equall to the foure generall Councels which foure Councels are by t DVR Gregorie doth not match the foure Councels in equall authoritie vvith the foure Gospels but onely saith that as hee doth vndoubtedly and certainely beleeue the scriptures so also the foure Councels WHIT. pag. 348. Gregorie saith that he doth imbrace and reuerence the foure Councels as the foure bookes of the Gospell Epist libr. 1. Epist. 24. And what is this but to make them equall For if there bee any inequalitie wo cannot imbrace and reuerence them both alike Gregory whom Campian citeth marched in equall authoritie with the foure Gospels from whence it necessarily followeth that all Councels of other times are of the same authoritie and credit with the foure Euangelists I will not vrge this poynt further neither will I now shake you vp as you vsually doe Master Luther but rather leaue you to bee beaten with the rod of mens silent iudgements After this you being shadowed with this impenitrable shield of Councels enter the lists and obserue whether your aduersarie conuaieth himselfe for so great a warrier you are such a skilfull Champion and so fierce in fight that assoone as you but shew your selfe forthwith all your enemies betake them to their heeles and eftsoones you declare how you meane to behaue your selfe in this fight and what a great slaughter you intend to make But take heede Campian least that may worthilie be applied to you which is spoken in the Prouerbes He that is rashly confident before the conflict is commonly a coward in the combate You speake much of the dignitie of Councels which we also acknowledge to be very great but neuerthelesse the holy Ghost is not bound to multitudes of men to stately preparations nor to sumptuous pompe And we may often obserue that in Councels there is much contending amongst contrarie factions and sometimes the greater part preuaileth against the better You say that Luther durst presume to affirme that hee preferred the iudgement and suffrages of two good and learned men before the Councels And in truth why might he not preferre them and who could iustly finde fault with that speech Seeing Gerson the Moderator of the Councell of Constance doubted not to preferre the iudgement of one man before the whole Councell u DVR Gerson did neuer preferre the iudgement of one man before a vvhole Councell WHIT. pag. 349. It is vntrue for he thus writeth We ought rather to bâ—leeue in a point of â—octrine a simple man not authorised but yet excellently learned in the scriptures theÌ„ the Pope Againe a man thus learned ought to oppose himselfe against a generall Councell if he perceiue that the greater part incline to that which is contrary to the Gospel either through malice or ignorance Gers de exam doctr 1. par Considerat 5. We are saith he to giue more credit vnto a man learned in the holy Scriptures alleaging catholike authority then to a generall Councell Tit. de elect can signifiâ—â—sti which also Paâ—ormitan hath confirmed writing in this manner We ought saith he rather to beleeue a simple lay man alleaging the Scripture than the whole Councell together You say further That Kemnisius dared to peise the Councell of Trent in the ballance of his owne giddie braine But Kemnisius did not examine that Councell by his owne square but by the rule of Gods holy word And what gained he say you and answering your selfe in your owne question you say nothing but infamie If Kemnisius haue not your good word it is no great wonder for he hath atchieued that by his learning vertue and industrie that he may seeme worthie of enuie and hatred from such as you are But if true and deserued praise be due to good deeds he hath obtained an honourable reward euen the euerlasting glorie of a good name Yea say you if he take not heede he shall be buried with Arrius But it behooued you Campian to trouble your head rather about your owne then Kemnisius his funerals and take you heede least for your euill deedes there be a sepulchre prouided for you amongst the damned Now here againe you begin more highly to extoll the Councell of Trent as though we knew not the notable carriage and behauiour of that famous and goodly Synode But for my part I easilie allow you to be so farre in loue with it neither in truth will I become your riuall
fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If iâ— hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may errâ— but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer spâ—â—kâ— the trâ—â—â— these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the
and authoritie with him and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome Therefore he must needes deest your Pope who preferreth himselfe both in dignity authority before all other Bishops from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales i DVR Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop And in his discourse 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed And so not things done in Afrike at Rome 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke for which he must giue an account Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole nor the administration of all causes finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questioÌ„ Lactan. 2. cap. 19. k DVR Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians but of the Idols of the Heathen vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth besides the Ieves had their Cherubins WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols but Images such as your Church is full of and so can there be no religion in it Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs but made of the earth as theirs who pretended for themselues as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do that they vvorshipped not the Images but the God expressed by them Further for the Cherubins they were placed in the most holy place into vvhich the people might not enter not yet looke in and shevv vs particular precepts for yours as they had for theirs and vve haue done But he that commanded theirs forbiddeth euery vvhere all others There can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion Athanasius affirmeth Athanas conts a Gentas That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of your l DVR VVill not all your Vniuersity men account you a cosener vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius say asmuch as I affirme The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues vvhy do you reptoach me but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers he doth but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures but as Commentaries vpon them For saith he by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture These vvords make not for you neither against vs therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite traditions Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women Epipham lib. 3. Haeres 79. who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship and condemneth all that superstition m DVR Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints but reproueth â—omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary aâ— to a Gâ—â—ldâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only his vvords are plaine â—et none of the Saints be adored The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none saith he worship the Virgine Mary What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women but also men and all mortall wights n DVR No Câ—tâ—oâ—ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints I pray you what may be the meaning of this you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women what Scriputre â—peaketh any thing of this matter Then answere your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary or for her whether soeuer Epiphanius saith It is foolish strange and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints And no man is found either so greatly couetous or so little superstâ—tious but he voweth somewhat to some Saint specially to the Virgin Mary offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary Basil in Epist ad Cleric Neocaesariae Basil is the author that in his dayes there was a o DVR Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil reade the place and you shall find these words there The câ—â—ome we now keepe is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt Afrike Thebes Palestine and all who vse singing of Psalmes custome in all Churches that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies But in your Churches the people can p DVR As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈◊〉 what a foolish dreame is this WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle then watch with you for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6 He that speaketh a strange tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God vers 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profit you Strange tongues then profit not vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes q DVR Gregorie neuer thought so but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words Hierome the Philosopher saith he proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for and more profitable to the end he might make choice of it And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only but for all others who beare the same nature with him he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life Doth he not now preferre this life and from the praise he giueth the other he hath somewhat detracted when he sheweth that it is only for themselues and so lesse
there can be any grace more ancient than faith But say you how can they beleeue who doe not yet vnderstand whether they liue or no and do they therfore not liue because they vnderstand not that they liue It is absurd Wherefore if they liue although they doe not vnderstand they do so a DVR But speake plainly if Infants haue no faith your nevv Euangelicall doctrine teaching that the force of the Sacrament doth depend vpon the faith of the receiuers must vanish WHIT. pag. 681. I do no thinke that Infants do beleeue there being neither reason nor Scripture for it And I answere that is not our doctrine you faine to bee Wee say that to men of yeares without saith it is a Sacrament but not a sauing Sacrament to children of beleeuing patents though they cannot for their yeares beleeue yet it is a sauing Sacrament as Circumcision was to the Infants of the Iewes For wee doubt not but the Spirit of God is powerfull vnto them after a hidden and vvonderfull manner As in the examples of Iacob Ieremie Iohn Baptist and others happily also they doe beleeue albeit they perceiue not that they beleeue That is hard say you bee it so Nor doe I speake these things as if I were wholy of that mind but to the end I may fish out your mind which our Vniuersity mâ—n doubtles make great account of But let vs heare Luthers medicine It is better saith he to omit it because except the Infant beleeue he is washed â—eâ—er a whit But this medicine came out of your shop not out of Luthers And indeed you haue offred vs many such like medicines very vnsauourie and ill fauouredly seasoned so that all your confections seeme to be corrupt But Luther did neuer perswade that Baptisme should be omitted he was alwaies earnest on that part that Baptisme should be giuen to Infants and therefore you are so much the more vniust in this place in that you would marre Luthers opinion with your medley For these things are so alledged by you as if Luther said it were better to omit Baptisme Therfore let vs heare Luther himself and let Campians medicine alone And yet saith he we deny not that Infants are to be baptised Luther aduers Cocâ—laeum nor do we anow that they receiue Baptisme without faith but wee say that at Baptisme they do beleeue by the power of the Word He addeth Or otherwise there would bee meere and intolerable lies when the Baptiser demandeth of the Infant whether he do beleeue as intending not to baptise vnlesse it be answered in the childâ— stead I beleeue Wherfore doth the Minister aske whether he do beleeue if iâ— be a certaine thing that they do not beleeue as Cocleus maintaineth Then he concludeth thus But we hold that Infants are not to be Baptised â—f it be true that they in Baptisme do not beleeue Luther then maintaineth and determineth that little children do beleeue and he reproueth the Papists because they teach things contrary each to other while they deny that an Infant hath faith and yet to the end he may be baptised they require faith of him Who seeth not to what these things may be referred so that hee must needs bee a most malicious man who maketh Luther in these words a perswader of so wicked an opinion And these things doe they speake say you being doubâ—full in their own mind what to maintaine positiuely Howsoeuer some doe doubt of the faith of infants yet wee all determine cleerely and positiuely that they are to be baptised Therfore there was no need that you should send for that Pacimentanâ— dayes-man who was alwayes more enclining to your side than to ours But why doe you obiect the Anabaptists to vs who hate vs much more eagerly than you and not without cause b DVR I knovv you doe fight hotly against the Anabaptists but vvith vvhat vveapons Caluin vvas glad to flie to the Tradition of the Church for be brought no place of Scripture against them neither could be bring any WHIT. pag. 685. You betray the Scriptures that you may establish Traditions What can be spoken either more contumeliously against the Scriptures or more for the aduantage of Anabaptists then that this their heresie cannot be coÌ„futed by Scripture But are you ignorant that Caluin vsed Scripture to refell this And yet he produceth these places Gen. 17.4 Matth. 19.13 28.19 which sufficiently ouerthrow the Anabaptists And in the place you alleadge hee rather renounceth Traditions then flieth to them for any defence Jast lib. 4 cap. 16. sect 8. for we haue both coÌ„uicted them for heretikes by our arguments and also haue expulsed them as seditious and pernicious men out of our Commonwealths who if they dwelt not with you could find no place to remaine in through the Christian world You passe ouer the rest of the Sacraments which I acknowledge to bee none at all nor doe I vnderstand which is that beast of many heads whereof you make mention vnlesse perhaps you meane that threeheaded beast of which Iohn writeth many things in the Reuelation Hitherto Campian Of Manners you haue examined certaine opinions and positions of our men in all which you haue found as yet neuer a Paradoxe For either the things that you obiect are such as that nothing can be truer then they or else they are craftily and treacherously wrested by you into a peruerse meaning But now as if you were some new Censurer and Master of the auncient discipline and seuerity you make search into our manners not I thinke to make them better but to make them seeme much worse than they be Although he that reproueth the manners of other it were meet that he should bee without fault And is there so great a change made of Rome vpon the sodaine is their life now such are their manners begunne to bee so goodly that you being returned theÌ„ce a Frier dare striue with vs about vertue shamefastnes and honâ—stie howsoeuer there be here many things done which ought not to be yet if you shall say that there is as great impunity and licenciousnes of sinnes in England as you your selfe haue seene at Rome the very towre of your religion and kingdome all men will iudge you to bee too too impudent Wherefore then doe you propose to vs those peeces of faults in Luther seeing among you not only some fragments of vices but huge bodies of the greatest crimes are plainely seene surely as long as those publike stewes and dens of whoores stand still in Rome you could scarce honestly make mention of manners But what are these peeces of faults in Luther Is it for that you reproue some crime in his life but that you neither can do nor go about to doe You obiect certaine sayings caught out of his bookes and as you are wont torne from the rest of the body of the sentence which seeme presently as soone as they bee propounded by you to make shew of
is no more our fault then yours the controuersie is about the word of God You contend that you haue it I contrariwise defend that we haue it if you like not my iudgement why may not I dislike yours But you say we expound the word c DVR You doe so for you proue the sense of Scripture vvhich you alleage neither by authoritie of Fathers nor by decrees of Councels nor by the rule of faith that is the common vse and custome of Christians WHIT. pag. 831. The meaning of the Scriptures in matters necessarie to saluation is plainely taught in the Scriptures as the Fathers themselues confesse and may bee found out by religious conferring of easier and harder places and such like meanes and so we proue the true sense of them The Fathers expositions often erre and varie one from another as their writings witnesse and you vvill confesse the auncient Councels expound little of the Scriptures as for the vse and customs of the people it is no rule of faith at all nor must vvee expound the Scriptures thereby amisse I againe auouch that it is false which you say Whither are you now come at last go one foote further forward if you can Why say you I haue the testimonie of fifteene hundred yeeres This is nought else but a friuolous a foolish and an insolent bragge You haue not I say you haue not Campian You are euer heere deceiued and turne round againe as it were into a circle and are faultie in that same very thing for which you reprooue vs. Touching the Fathers I haue answered you alreadie In the questions of greatest waight they are wholly on our d DVR Jf it vvere so you vvould not extenuate their authoritie nor refuse to stand to their iudgement as you doe WHIT. pag. 833. We giue the Fathers their due but rely more vpon the Scriptures which are infallibly true you are driuen from the Scriptures and rake vp euen out of the Fathers ouersights whatsoeuer seemeth to fauour your errors neither doth it follow that the Fathers are not on our side in many and the greatest controuersies because wee say with Augustine that all controuersies of religion must not bee determined out of the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures side in those of smaller moment their iudgemeÌ„ts are diuers and they make for you in very few and those of least importance How much better would it stand with wisedome that as Augustine sometime wrote of Councels neither you should obiect Ierome against me nor I Augustine against you Aug. contra Maximian lib. 3. cap. 14 thereby to preiudice each side but that matter might be tried with matter cause with cause and reason with reason by the authority of the Scriptures Aug. Epist 111. ad Fortunatian For indeed as the same Augustine hath elsewhere taught vs we must not haue any mens disputations howsoeuer otherwise they be meÌ„ of sound iudgement and worthie praise in like estimation as the e DVR No Catholike euer esteemed any mans vvittings to be compared vvith the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 834. But Papists not onely compare them with but also preferre them before the Scriptures for they vvill not haue controuersies tried by the Scriptures but by the Fathers and they sooner allovv a sentence of one Father than many Scriptures so did not Angustine nor Thomas Aquinas Canonicall Scriptures Such an vnderstander saith he am I in reading other mens writings such would I haue other men to be of mine And because you haue mentioned Thomas Aquinas The. Aquinas 1. p. 1. q. 2. Art learne of him what manner argumeÌ„ts may be taken out of the Fathers writings Diuinity or holy learning saith he vseth authorities of Canonicall Scripture to proue or disproue a thing necessarily but it vseth the authorities of other f DVR VVe say not that the iudgement of one or tvvo of the Fathers but that the common consent of the Pasters and Doctors of the Church is the strongest argument to confute you WHIT. 833.835 Augustine and Thomas spake also of all men opposing onely Scriptures vnto them so that apparantly they taught that the consent of all Fathers and Doctors could bee but a probable reason and that the Scriptures onely yeeld necessarie arguments vvhich no consent of men though neuer so learned Doctors and Pastors can confute Further I say pag. 854. that you haue the common consent of all the Fathers in no one cause against vs yea that all the auncient Fathers doe together with vs vvith one voyce condemne your halfe Communion Transubstantiation reall presence sole Communion bread-vvorshipping externall reall sacrifice seruice in strange language your Popes absolute iurisdiction and many other such like Doctors of the Church to dispute of a thing probably These forsooth ô you truly learned Vniuersitie students are those so notorious sophisticall errors which Campian could finde worthie his censure in our mens writings I could wish you might haue this so famons a Sophister to canuas awhile at home in your Schooles then verily would it easily appeare how much truth excelleth falshood and how farre sound learning preuaileth against vaine bragging words for I know well such Sophisters as this is can neither any whit affright nor greatly perplex you EDMVND CAMPIAN The tenth Reason which is all manner of Witnesses THis shall be to you a direct path so that the simplest that bee neede not wander out of it For who is Esay 35. though he be but of the meaner sort of common people so senselesse so that he haue an eye vnto his soules health that cannot see if he looke but a little about him the path of the Church so plainely trodden that cannot keepe it if he dislike of by-wayes that lead him through brambles and ragged roches and places that cannot be passed These things shall be well knowne euen of those that be ignorant as Esay hath prophecied and therefore most manifest vnto you If you will * Campian bringeth nothing in this place but a continuall begging of the question let vs take a view of all things that are any where to be seene let vs trauerse ouer euery thing wheresoeuer it be All things do minister matter fit for our purpose Let vs ascend into heauen by imagination there may we finde such as through martyrdome Coelites are as ruddie as the red a August Serm. 37. de Sanct. rose and also such as for their innocencie while they liued do glister as beautifully as the white Lilly There may we see I say those * Of which not one was a Papist three and thirty Bishops of b Dam. in vit Poâ—â— Rom. Rome which for their faith were immediatlie murthered one after another There may we see such Pastors as throughout all nations vpon the earth shed their blood for the testimony of Christs name There may we see the stock of faithfull people that tread the steps of their Pastors There may wee see