him the punishment and not the fault hath done away both fault and punishment Aug. de verb. Dom. Scr. 37. and elsewhere more expresly Christ had two good things righteousnesse and immortality wee two euill things sinne and wortality the one hee tooke vpon him the other he did not and by taking vpon him the one he freed vs from both As for satisfaction required of vs it is not as he sheweth for punishment but to shew our repentance by our outward actions So that according to August wee are deliuered from mortality as a punishment and not only from hell fire Elym Howsoeuer you seeme to make these learned Fathers to speake it is plaine that they meant onely eternall punishments borne by Christ for vs. And therefore they doe vsually speake of works of penance and almes as hauing force to purge and wash away sinne Chrysostome sayth Hom. 1. in Gen. The common Lord of vs all desirous to haue all our sinnes washed away hath inuented this cure which is made by fasting Lib. de promis prad part 2. c. 2. Hom. 1. And Prosper saith Almes cleanse the whole man And Cesarius sayth that a man who by sinning hath lost himselfe doth agains redeeme himselfe by his satisfaction Paul Where is there a word in all these touching satisfaction for temporall punishments It may rather bee inferred if these speeches be strictly taken that wee are able to doe something to deliuer our selues from sinne both in respect of guilt and punishment temporall eternall Wherefore it must needs bee yeelded that these things were spoken improperly that being ascribed to the instrument or meanes which is proper vnto Christ Satisfaction therefore as it is now taught in your Church is rather to bee referred to the Lateran Councell Anno 1215 wherein the sacrament of penance was established an appendix whereof is satisfaction Elym Because you haue spoken of the sacrament of penance first appointed in the Lateran Councell I will lay hold vpon the occasion to put you to proue the nouelty of the seuen sacraments for if seuen haue beene anciently acknowledged this is not so new as you would make the world beleeue Paul I am very willing to follow you herein and let the issue rest vpon my prouing your seuen Sacraments to be nouelties I say then that this number was not knowne nor acknowledged by antiquity but was first taught by Peter Lombard and the Schoole-men following him aboue 1000 yeares after Christ Epist 118. Saint Augustine sayth the Sacraments of the New Testament are most few in number Isidorus An. 600 sayth Lib. 6 Originum c. 19. Pasc de Caena The Sacraments are Baptisme and Chrisme and the body and blood of Christ And Pascasius Anno 900 sayth likewise Elym They say these two are the chiefe indeed but they exclude not the rest Hugo de Sancto Victore teacheth seuen sacraments and of them he saith some are the principall wherein saluation standeth Lib. de sacram 7. part 9. c. 6. viz. Baptisme and the Supper of the Lord the rest though they bee not so necessary yet they profit vnto sanctification And I could easily shew that the ancientest Fathers haue called euery of these Sacraments Paul I grant you without shewing that they called them sacraments and so they called any holy signe according to Augustines definition August Epist 5. Euery holy sigue is a Sacrament But that there are any more then two properly so called they neuer taught and euen your Hugo who acknowledgeth 7 can be no ground for your 7 for he reckoneth not penance for one but the water of aspersion And the very Schoolemen deny the rest to be sacraments Lib. 4.26 properly so called P. Lombard denyeth Matrimony to be a Sacrament properly and vniuocally with the other sacraments and Durand likewise vpon that place Lib. 4. dist 24. The same Lombard denyeth ordination to bee properly a sacrament and Alexander de Hales and Thomas Aquinas vpon that place c. Serg. Paul This your dispute about the Sacraments hath brought to my mind another point yet â—â—toucht about the holy Scriptures and Traditions Can you shew that it is a noueliy is hold that together with the Canonical Scriptures Apocryphall bookes are to be receiued and vnwritten traditions as a rule of our saith or hath it euer beene held thus Paul It is a nouelty to hold that the Scriptures doe not containe in them all things necessary to saluation and that Apocryphall bookes are to be receiued as Canonicall and that traditious are necessary to saluation For the Fathers sought to hold all men onely to the Scriptures Hom. 1. in Psal 95. Chrysostome saith If any thing bee spoken without Scripture the thought of the bearers limpeth sometimes yeelding and sometime doubting And againe If ye hears any saying I haue the holy Spirit Serm. de S. Sp. but not speaking out of the Gospell bee speaketh of himselfe and the holy Spirit is not in him So Basil reg Mor. 8. 28. Epist 80. And touching Apocryphall books Cyril Hierusalym sayth Haus nothing to doe with Apocryphall bookes Catee 4. but read the canonicall which are considently read in the Church The Apostles and first Bishops were much wiser and more religious then thou who deliuered the scriptures vnto vs. Doe not thou therefore seeing thou art a child of the Church ges beyond their bounds Athen in Synop. Athanasius sayth There are 22 bookes of the old Testament Canonicall but there are other bookes which are not Canonicall which are onely read of the Catecumeni as the booke of Wisdome Ecclesiasticus c. Ierom calleth the History of Susamus Prafat in Den. of Bel and the Dragon fables and saith the same was the opinion of Eusebius Apollinarius Methodius c. Baruch was not receiued as Canonicall till the Councell of Florence Anno 1439. And touching vnwritten traditions they receiued none of old but either such as were consonant to the holy Scriptures which were written in sense though not in word according to Augustine of which was the baptisme of Infants and not to rebaptize De Gen ad lit lib. 10 c. 23. Tertul de Coron c. 23. or customes in indifferent things according to Tertullian who saith Dost thou not thinke that it is lawfull for euery faithfull Church to conceiue and constituent that which agreeth to God 〈◊〉 to diseiplione and profireth 〈◊〉 solnation And these by the prestice of your owne Church may be left off again For the thrice dipping in Baptisin standing in time of prayer vpon the Lords day tasting of milke and honcy in Baptisme c. anciently receiued are now abrogated and not held to bind Elym I could reioyne with you about this argument and bring many passages of the Fathers shewing their high esteeme of traditions but lest these disputes should proue tedious to this noble person and that he may not being fascinated with that which you haue said incline
so freshly in my memory since you resolued them vnto me at that I am fully reselued that they are but wrested and wrung by the aduersary to sorne his turne Elym But by your fauour sir nothing hath yet beene sayd to one place plainly distinguishing betwixt veniall and mortall sinnes and concluding prayer for some dead viz. that sinne not vnto death but are penitent before they dye Paul You doe well to recall that againe which I thought not worth the answering How can it be spoken of mortall and veniall sinnes Is he that hath sinned a mortall sinne to be giuen ouer then as a desperate Reprobate and not to bee prayed for any more What is this but to condemne Peter himselfe and Dauid and Manasseh c. as vnworthy to bee prayed for If your distinction of mortall and veniall sinnes haue no better ground but this it is set vp altogether vpon the sands And for praying for any dead nothing can bee more absurd then to alledge this for he doth not note out the time of continuing or breaking off from sinne as making his case that hath sinned desperate or reparable by the prayers of others by reason of this circumstance but plainely in it selfe for hee saith There is a sinne vnto death And againe There is a sinne not vnto death that is in plaine English there is a sinne which who so committeth it shall dye therefore without all hope of life whatsoeuer prayers should be made for him but there is sinne also the proper sequell and wages whereof is death yet not so necessarily but remission and life may be obtained notwithstanding And if it be taken in this sense there is the consent of other places to confirme it as that All sinnes shall bee forgiuen to the sonnes of men but he that sinneth against the Holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen of such a sinne Saul seemeth to haue beene guilty when the Lord forbiddeth Samuel to pray any more for him But take it of praying for such as dye repeneantly and where can you finde any to second it Serg. Paul I see it is in vaine for you Elymas to hold argument with him any longer by the testimonies of holy Scripture preceed therefore to your plea of antiquitie for therein â—oâ— may happen to put him downe indeed Paul It must needs bee so Sir as you haue said for whatsoeuer flourishes they make their conscience telleth them that the Scriptures are against them seeing they can no more abide them then the â—â—â—tle the day-light Why else doe they keep them lockt vp in an vnknowne tongue Why doe they condemne our translations as hereticall and allow onely of Ieromes translation for it were a mad part for them to condemne and forbid that which maketh on their side This their cracking therefore of the Scriptures is but a fruit of their late impudency putting them on to vndertake the proofe of any thing that can bepropounded But they are very confident that we cannot demonstrate in particular the time and persons when and by whom their false doctrines were broached and their superstitions brought in yet I feare as little to enter the lists with him about this argument as about the other Elymas And I doubt not but to put you to shame enough in so doing for the most ancient Orthodoxe Fathers of the Church haue alwayes taught the same that wee doe and haue often mentioned the particulars of our deuotion which yee falsly call superstition Which being so I weigh not all your places of Scripture if you had as many more nor your colourable answers to such as haue beene by mee alledged for the customes of the Church and traditions deliuered from age to age are of the same authoritie with the holy Scriptures and they are rather to bee regulated hereby as being certaine then these by them speaking as euery man listeth to wrest and turne them Paul It is a false slander by you laid vpon the Scriptures that they are vncertaine and a burthening of Christian people for which you shall answere to obtrude traditions thus vnto them as I haue before declared To passe that ouer therefore here Who can tell whether the ancient Fathers in those passages wherein they haue made some mention of some practices by you vsed were made to speake so by some audacious forger seeing there are so many supposititious writings falsly fathered vpoÌ„ so many imaginary Fathers that neuer were in rerum natura and such purging and altering of ancient Writings hath beene made of late by the authority of the Councell of Trent Moreouer it is possible that through the neglect of Historians or wittingly in fauour of your abuses the originall and first springing vp of them may be concealed But if not few men are read in History neither is history reading necessary to saluation and therefore it maketh not any whit the more on your side though they cannot precisely set downe when and by whom your heresies and superstitions were brought in euen as Mahumetisme were no whit the more approueable though the originall thereof were vnknowne For by this reason the Heathen priests of old sought to maintaine the credit of their idolatries challenging the Christians for imbracing a new Religion It is a poore shift when any thing is particularly disproued by the Word of God to cauill about the beginning of it as if the day were lost if that could not be done for if the leakes of a Ship or the decayes of an House be apparant if corruptions within or blemishes vpon the bodie be made manifest what auaileth it to approue that they are no decayes or blemishes by pleading But can any man tell when these first began Elym Our errours as you call them are not so euident yet as your comparisons If you cannot therefore shew their beginning it is plaine that they were deliuered from the Apostles and it is heresie and impiety in you to impugne them Paul Doth the same fountaine send forth salt water and sweet Doth the same mouth speake contradictories for so certaine is it that these things cannot bee deriued from the Apostles seeing they are altogether against them But because you vige it so much I will set downe the time and age of euery part of your Religion that the nouelty of it may appeare to all the world And first I will begin with the chiefe and head of all your errours the Popes headship This was first established in a Councell at Rome of seuenty two Bishops thirty Presbyters and three Deacons in the time of Boniface the third Anno Dom. 607. Plat. in vita Bonis 3. being then obtained of Phocas who came to the Empire by murthering Mauritius his Master and therefore to prouide the better for himselfe he was willing by granting the supremacie ouer all to ioyne vnto him the Pope of Rome Conc. Constant the eight generall Councell Afterwards there was a Councell held at Constantinople in the dayes of Pope Adrian vnder Basilius
which I haue begung Treasury of Eccles-expositions and to perfect which will require the whole life and labour of one whole man Many haue written so I grant in this argument as that they exceed this of mine without all compare but some are so large and haue made their bookes to swell to so great volumes as that they are onely for professed Students and not for euery mans memory leyfure or money Some againe are so short and doe so prosecute some points onely as that howsoeuer they be for euery man yet when they are read almost euery man remaineth still vnsatisfied in many things Lastly some are neither too large nor too short but haue written fully methodically and logically yet not so fully but that diuers particulars haue beene omitted the common motiues on both sides haue not beene so throughly weighed the originalls of the many eâ—rours of the Church of Rome and the Apostolike Antiquity of the Reformed Religion hath not beene so declared nor the treatises in the manner of them so fitted to the capacity of the vulgar so as that many read them but for want of capacity and through these defects in the worke are not so much moued Now to supply all these defects and to instruct all euen my most vncapable Country-men in euery point and motiue so as that there might be nothing to hinder those that desire to know the truth and to cleaue vnto and obey it I haue written this plaine and short Dialogue And herein I am not so blind but I see to what enuying and hard censuring I expose my selfe but neither credit nor life are any thing to me so that by any meanes I may saue some Onely let mee say thus much in way of Apologie that it is well knowne that I am not malicious against the Romane Catholikes nor out of spite haue thus written or vsed the name of Elymas to disgrace any but wilfull Pontificians who for sinister respects against their knowledge seeke to lead into error not onely common people but noble gouernors that attentiuely hearken to Pauls preaching For the rest let mee intreat you to read me not as an enemy vnlesse I shall therefore bee counted your enemy Gal. 4.16 because I tell you the truth but as one that desireth and prayeth for your saluation and I doubt not but through Gods grace you shall see that which will make you suspect and not so well to like your present estate nor so much to condemne our reformation if not to separate your selues and to come out with vs from amongst them lest ye perish euerlastingly For I professe before God who knoweth all secrets that till I seriously studied vpon these things I was not so resolued that the Pope is the Antichrist nor your tenents and superstitions so damnable but the further I waded into this study the more was I resolued so as that now I make no further doubt of it And therefore my hope is that the like effect may by reading these my meditations bee wrought in others also that the vnstable may be setled and the erring bee brought home into the one sheepfold of Christ before it be too late which God grant vnto you all for his mercies sake Amen A Table of the points of both Religions discussed in this Booke Of the Protestant Religion 1 God onely is to be beleeued in and not the Church Page 2 2 Christ onely is our Mediator and not the Saints departed Page 2 3 Iustification and saluation is by faith onely Page 3 4 Faith assureth of saluation Page 4 5 The soules of the faithfull goe not to Purgatory Page 5 6 Prayers for the dead auaile not Page 6 7 The Sacrament of the Lords Supper is no sacrifice There is no reall presence it ought to be in both kinds Page 6 8 Baptisme doth not quite ake away naturall corruption Page 7 9 The Sacraments of the new Testament are but two onely Page 7 10 There is no perfection of righteousnesse in this life Page 7 11 There is no liberty of will vnto good Page 8 12 Mariage is free for all men Page 8 13 The Scriptures alone are sufficient Page 10 14 None ought to be debarred from reading the Scriptures Page 11 15 The Pope is not supreme head of the Church Page 12 16 God onely is to be called vpon and not the Saints departed Page 14 17 The vse of images in diuine worship is vnlawfull Page 15 18 All prayers ought to be in a knowne tongue Page 17 19 Confession of sinnes is not necessary to any but to God onely Page 17 20 Satisfaction for sinne cannot be made by workes of penance Page 17 21 All sinnes are mort all none veniall Page 18 22 To goe on Pilgimage is a superstition Page 19 23 Extreme vncton ought not now to be Page 19 24 Crossing and holy water are vaine superstitions Page 19 25 Nothing is to be taken from the word for any end Page 20 26 Wilfull pouerty is not warrantable Page 20 27 To vow perpetuall Virginity is vnlawfull page 21 28 Of Holy dayes and fasts vpon their Eeues page 21 29 The Clergy is subiect to the King as well as the laity page 22 30 Superstitions ceremonies in baptizing are anoyded page 23 31 The holy Sâ—â—rament is not to be kept for after-vses page 23 32 The Church of Rome is no true Church because she razeth the foundation page 24 33 The ignorant Papists indangered as well as others page 32 Of Popery 1 Satisfaction for temporall punishments page 25 2 The merit of Saints of the Masse and of workes page 26 3 The saints Mediators page 27 4 Free-will preparing for grace page 28 By these the foundation is razed page 29 5 Vncertainty of faith page 31 6 The Popes supremacy page 37 7 The worshipping of Images page 43 8 The single life of Priests page 47 9 The reall presence page 49 10 Prayers in the Latine tongue page 53 11 Purgatory and praying for the dead page 54 12 Crossing and holy water page 55 13 Freewill page 59 14 Iustification by workes page 60 15 The vncertainty of saluation page 62 16 Satisfaction for sinne page 62 17 Seuen Sacraments page 64 18 Apocryphall Scriptures and traditions c. page 65 AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST POPERY In way of a Dialogue Wherein The Speakers are Saul or Paul Sergius Paulus and Elymas Saul NOble Sir because you are an elect vessell the Lord hath sent mee to publish the true Religion vnto you by the imbracing and right professing whereof you may be saued Sergius Paulus What is that religion Saul It is the Christian Religion taught and maintained in the reformed or Protestant Churches Serg. Paul Wherein standeth this religion Saul The maine points of it concerne either faith or practice in exercising the parts of Gods worship Serg. Paul Concerning faith what doth the Protestant Church hold Saul I will not rehearse all contained in the Symboll or Creed of the Apostles about which
grace as that there is in him no imperfection or want at all Of the former the Lord speaketh that wee should loue not onely friends but also enemies and exercise benignitie to all and not of the other Againe there is a perfection of sinceritie and a perfection of sanctitie of the former of which onely I spake and not of the latter for I had immediately before acknwoledged my selfe not perfect in that sense Serg. Paul What is the eleuenth particular point Saul The eleuenth point is that mans will is so corrupted euer since the fall of Adam as that hee cannot desire to be conuerted or thinke a thought tending to conuersion but of his owne will he is caried onely to euill till that God of his grace changeth his will by putting a new heart and spirit into him Gen. 6.5 2 Cor. 3.5 Phil. 2.13 For all the imaginations of mans heart are onely euill continually and we are not able to thinke a good thought as of our selues but it is God that worketh in vs the will and the deed of his owne good pleasure Serg. Paul Why then are we bidden to turne from sinne to repent and beleeue the Gospell and why is it vsed as an argument of iust iudging How oft would I haue gathered you together and ye would not if they could doe no otherwise Saul Wee are bidden to turne to shew that the Lord will not turne vs without our being willing and by thus calling vpon vs he worketh a willingnesse in such as bee elected and if any notwithstanding are still hardened and finally damned the cause is not in God who is tyed to no man but in the corruption of their owne will brought in by mans owne default when at the first it was not so Serg. Paul What is the twelfth particular point Saul The twelfth point is that mariage is free for all men and that none ought to be debarred from it but if any can containe they are to bee exhorted to vse this gift that they may be more free to serue God not being intangled with so much worldly businesse as they which haue wife and children For mariage is honorable amongst all men Heb. 13.4 1 Tim 4 3. and it is a doctrine of Deuils forbidding to marry yea the Apostles themselues were maried men and I might haue vsed the same libertie also neither doth the Lord approue it to bee good for any sort of men not to marry Math. 19.12 but for such onely as can containe Serg. Paul If mariage bringeth worldly incombrances and the Ministers of the Gospell had need to enioy all freedome that they may the better attend vpon their office it seemeth that the vnmaried are rather to bee preferred if a sufficient number of such may be had and if any bee therefore willing to liue alwaies single that they may be the more fit for this seruice it is no forbidding of mariaege to receiue onely such to holy Orders Againe though mariage be lawfull and a mans companying with his wife be no sinne yet it disableth him for a time to communicate in such things as wherein holy persons onely haue libertie as to eate of the Shew-bread Abiathar telleth Dauid 1 Sam. 21.4 that if they had not lately companied with women they might cate of it and the Priests vnder the Law when their course came to serue in the Temple liued apart from their wiues as appeareth by the example of Zachary Luk. 1.23 Saul If any sufficient and fit for life and learning hauing the gift of continencie liue single it is not to bee doubted but that they are to be preferred but because this gift is very rare and for preferment men will take vpon them that which they haue no abilitie vnto to admit onely such into holy Orders is in effect to forbid mariage to some and damnable as of the Deuill as hath been already shewed Yea it is a maruell that they which pretend the Apostolicall title so much should bee so plainely against the Apostle who saith Let a Bishop be the Husband of one Wife 1 Tim. 3. Neither are they that inforce themselues to a single life but want the gift the more free but rather much more troubled seeing lust is an hundreth times more incombring then any domesticall troubles of the maried And lastly if it bee a good reason against the mariage of Priests that companying with women makes them vnfit to partake of the Holy Bread for a time it is good also against the mariage of any Christian man who is now also to partake of this bread as well as the Priest No more therefore can be hence concluded but that all should abstaine from companying with their wiues against the time of communicating as against the time of fasting Prayer For so I haue elsewhere directed Defraud not one another 1. Cor. 7 5. except it be by consent for a time that ye may giue your selues to fasting and Prayer and come together againe Serg. Paul What is the thirteenth particular point Saul The thirteenth point is that the holy Scriptures that is the canonicall bookes of the Old and New Testament are alone sufficient for saluation neither are any other either Apochryphall Writings or vnwritten Traditions of like authoritie but onely so far forth to be receiued as they agree with the contents of these Bookes For it is plainely expressed that though Iesus did and spake many things more then are written yet these things are written that wee might beleeue and beleeuing haue eternall life Ioh. 20.31 Gal. 1 8. And if we or an Angell from Heauen bring any other Gospell let him bee accursed We that are the Apostles of Christ haue euer submitted our doctrine to bee examined by the written Word and therefore Act. 17.11 if any thing be pretended to haue been taught by vs by word of mouth or by any that haue followed vs not consonant to the written Word it is without doubt to bee reiected Serg. Paul It is no where written that the Lords day is to bee kept holy in stead of the old Sabbath nor that infants are to bee baptized nor that the Lords Supper is to bee receiued in the morning or at the Church or by women as well as by men and yet these things are necessarie Saul These are agreeable to the written Word and therefore good reason that they should bee obserued but this maketh nothing for vnwritten traditions contrary to the Word of God or for the authoritie of any that are without ground here Serg. Paul The Scriptures are obscure and therefore alledged euen by the vilest Heretikes so that if they onely be receiued it seemeth that there will be nothing to patronize the truth more then errour It is not therefore necessarie to take them with the sense receiued by the Church that wee may hold aright and be saued Saul Many places of Scripture are plaine and easie to be vnderstood namely so many as doe
if the Prince should bid vs all that haue suits to the King to come to him and he will prefer them for vs if notwithstanding we leauing the Prince should flocke about some Courtiers to intercede for vs. Serg. Paul What is the fourth point in practice Saul Fourthly wee make all our prayers in a knowne tongue for I will pray with the spirit 1 Cor. 14.15 and I will pray with my vnderstanding also It is a confusion and no edification to vse publike seruice in a strange tongue euen as when a trumpet maketh an imperfect sound Serg. Paul What is the fifth point in practice Saul Fiftly because the Lord hath forbidden vaine repetitions Math. 6. as heathenish we doe not place deuotion in saying ouer a multitude of prayers but in feruent and hearty praying one or a few prayers at a time so as that our affections may be quickened and not dulled hereby Serg. Paul What is the sixth point in practice Saul Sixtly wee content our selues to confesse our sinnes only to God and hold it not necessary to confesse all things vnto the Priest but onely for necessary reliefe of conscience being troubled in regard of some particulars And generally wee deny not but acknowledge to one another that wee are sinners and this is all that God hath commanded Iam. 5.16 Confesse your sinnes one vnto another and pray one for another Serg. Paul What is the seuenth point in practice Saul Seuenthly when we haue humbled our selues for our sinnes wee doe not take vpon vs to satisfie for them by punishing our bodies with whipping or putting on Haire-cloth but onely by abstinence and contrition of heart watching more carefully ouer our wayes that wee sinne no more For Christ hath satisfied fully for vs by bearing in his bodie the smart due for our sins and no more reuenge is required to be taken by vs vpon our selues but that whereby our bodies may be beaten downe 1 Cor. 9. and the better kept from sinning for the time to come such as is hearty sorrow for so the Lord hath commanded Ioel 2.13 Rent your hearts and not your garments and fasting is often called for but doing violence to the body by striking till the blood commeth out is rather to imitate Baals priests 1 King 18. that lanched and cut their bodies in their superstitious deuotion then to follow any approued patterne of the truely godly Serg. Paul But the wearing of sackcloth and ashes is commended by many approued examples so that if you refuse this penance it seemeth that you are iustly to blame Saul Wee must not confound but distinguish betwixt times Vnder the Law indeed these things were required and the washing of the body and the bringing of a sacrifice for expiation of sinne because the Lord not content with inward contrition would haue it outwardly expressed also such was the austeritie of the Law but vnder the Gospel these are remitted for when the Publicans and people asked Iohn Luke 3.9 exhorting to workes of repentance what they should doe he omitteth all these things and speaketh onely of ceasing from sinne and doing good neither is girding with sackcloth c. any where else mentioned in the New Testament such is the lenitie of the Gospel Hereupon it is said that the burthen of the Law was heauy and such at neither we nor our fathers were able to heare Act. 15.10 Math. 11.28 but of the yoake of the Gospell the Lord saith My yoake is easie and my burden light Serg. Paul But are not some sinnes veniall â— for which Christ did not neither needed to suffer and ought not wee then by these workes of penance to satisfie for them Saul It is an imaginaly distinction no where founded in the Word of God Iam. 2.10 Math. 5.19 for here all sinne is condemned as mortall He that obserueth all the Law and yet faileth in one point it guilty of all He that breaketh the least of Gods commandements and teacheth others to doe so shal be counted the least in the Kingdome of Heauen And what lesser sin can there be then an idle word Math. 12.36 Mark 7.21 and yet hereof account shall bee giuen at the day of Iudgement And what lesser then euill thoughts and yet these defile a man and so debatre him from heauen forasmuch as no vncleane thing shall enter therein Serg. Paul What is the eighth point of practice Apoc. 22. Saul Eighthly we hold that we may as acceptably worship God in one place as in another namely in our priuate worship one alone neither haue wee need to goe on pilgrimage to any remote place where the bones of any Saint or Reliques are kept or Church or Chappell in any respect supposed to be more holy as though wee should the rather obtaine Gods indulgence in respect of our sinnes by thus doing For when thou wilt pray saith the Lord Math. 6.6 enter into thy closet And for publique assembling to the worship of God any consecrate place is as good as Ierusalem or the Mount where Iacob was wont to worship For all such dignitie of one place aboue another is plainly by Christ himselfe abrogated saying The houre commeth when neither at Ierusalem Ioh. 4.20 nor in this Mountaine men shall worship the Father Serg. Paul What is the ninth point of practice Saul Ninthly if any bee sicke wee pray for them but anoint them not Iam. 5. because although direction bee giuen thus to doe yet consideration must be had of the times anointing was then accompanied with healing through a singular vertue vpon the Presbyterie for the more confirmation of the Gospel in the first beginnings thereof but this hath ceased long agoe and therefore if it were now vsed it would bee a naked ceremonie without benefit to the diseased Serg. Paul What is the tenth point of practice Saul Tenthly we doe not vse crossing or Holy Water or any the like Ceremonies to blesse vs therewith because we doe not finde that they were instituted by God but inuented by men giuen to superstition and therefore can haue no further vertue then such are able to giue vnto them Serg. Paul But by experience it hath beene diuers times confirmed that there is vertue in these things for the diuell hath beene often hereby chaced away Saul If any such effect hath followed vpon the applying of them it hath beene through collusion of the Deuill giuing way for a further aduantage namely that superstitious people might be the more confirmed in their confidence in such impotent ceremonies and be drawne away from God who onely is able to curbe Satan that thus they might lye the more open vnto him Serg. Paul What is the eleuenth point of practice Saul Eleuenthly we do not vse any deceit by keeping any thing written in the canonicall Scriptures from the knowledge of the people or by inuenting stories of things neuer done to stirre vp deuotion in them For whatsoeuer the
So that we may most truely affirme that there is no one tenent of our Church but we haue a plaine place of Scripture for it but it may truly be retorted vpon you that you haue not one plaine place for any one of your tenents or practices so that ye are faine miserably to wrest and straine any text hence alledged and when that will not doe to fly to Apochryphall bookes traditions and ridiculous fables Elym Are all these sayings in your Bible if they bee it is more then I know but sure I am that there are sentences plainly teaching the same that we doe For what else is that saying of our Sauiour This is my body and my flesh is meat indeed and blood drinke indeed and vpon this rocke will I build my Church and to thee will I giue the Keyes of the Kingdome of heauen and againe Peter feed my sheepe And touching the Church Math. 18.17 1 Tim 3.15 If he heareth not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and the Church is the ground and pillar of truth Touching other points we need none other Scripture seeing to the Church it is promised Ioh. 16.13 When he is come which is the spirit of truth he will lead you into all truth Wherefore the Church cannot erre and whatsoeuer is by her propounded as matter of faith or practice must needs then be right But bee it knowne vnto you that wee want not plaine places for particular points Touching iustification Iam. 2.24 A man is not iustified by faith onely but by workes Touching prayer for the dead There is a sinne vnto death I say not that yee should pray for it 1 Ioh. 5.16 Iam. 5.14 Luke 7.47 Math. 25. Touching extreame vnction They shall pray for him and anoint him in the name of the Lord. Touching the merit of workes Many sinnes are forgiuen her because shee hath loued much and Come ye blessed c. for I was hungry and yee fed me c. For time would faile me if I should go on to alleage all the places that plainly make for vs. Paul You doe well so to slieglit our euidences brought out of the holy Scriptures because they are so plaine that they cannot bee answered neither indeed doe your sect much acquaint your selues with the Bible for there are some students in Diuinity of many yeares that neuer read the Bible To your places therefore How doth the speech of our Sauiour make for Transubstantiation without altering or adding It is meat indeed we confesse but he saith not is meat for the body nor yet in explaining himself afterwards hath he one word intimating a bodily substance that he would giue to be fed vpon but the clean contrary for he saith Ioh. 6.63 the flesh profiteth nothing my words are spirit and life Againe for those sayings vnto Peter there is nothing plaine for Peters supremacy for his bearing vp all as a foundation and much lesse for his pretended successours the Bishops of Rome For plainly to teach these things had beene to haue said vpon thee and thy successours will I build my Church and to thee and to him that shall succeed thee in thy Bishopricke at Rome I will giue authority ouer all others But so far is the Lord from this that when there was iust occasion offered vpon the motion of the mother of Zebedees children to declare the supreme when they contended about it amongst themselues hee speaketh no word to settle the supremacy vpon any one but altogether to stop the mouth of any from once challenging it But I haue spoken sufficiently of this before so that I shall not need to adde any thing about his commission to feed his sheepe It is maruaile that when all chiefe points of faith are so plainely expressed that this which is so much stood vpon as inferiour to none should be so obscurely passed ouer Touching the Church there is nothing plainely spoken that it shall be alwayes visible but onely it may be implyed that as long as there are Christians to doe those mutuall offices of reproouing one another for sinne there shall be a discipline exercised in the Church how corrupt soeuer for the chastisement of such as are complained of as manifest transgressors of the Law the iust proceedings whereof notwithstanding the corruptions are of force to the terror of malefactors For that saying tell the Church at that time had reference to a most corrupt Church of Scribes and Pharisees whose authority was yet by the Lord established saying Math. 23.1 whatsoeuer they bid you obserue that obserue and doe So that from hence nothing more can be rightly taught no not by inference but that there shall alwayes be some visible Church good or bad which we also acknowledge But in case that there bee two such Churches together who doubteth forsaking that which is corrupt to goe to the best and soundest Touching error from which you seeke to exempt your Church because the Church is called the gound and pillar of truth what is this to the present Church of Rome the sinke of most grosse errors and superstitions The true Church indeed such as it was in those dayes founded vpon the Prophets and Apostles Christ himselfe being the chiefe corner slone Ephes 2.20 was the ground of truth because therein the truth was preserued and vpheld and wheresoeuer it is so at this day that Church is likewise the ground and pillar of truth But it doth not necessarily follow that wheresoeuer the Church is whether sound or corrupt it is the ground of truth for so much as the truth held and eleaued vnto in all things maketh the Church the pillar and ground of truth and not the Church that to be true whatsoeuer she shall think good to propound For otherwise Christ the Prophets Apostles with their dictates institutions and writings should not bee a ground vnto men succeeding and inferiour to them but these men should bee a ground vnto them which were absurd And the same I answer to that promise of the spirit it was peculiar to the Apostles and special instruments stirred vp for those times to be so guided into all truth as not to erre because what came from them was to bee a ground to the faithfull in all succeeding ages and it is most palpably wrested to your Church now And if your fundamentall places be thus impertinently alledged the rest will fall without any labour at the least most worthy Sergius you may be able to iudge hereof by that which hath beene already spoken in laying open the faith of the reformed Church Serg. Paul When these places were first alledged by Elymas I thought it impossible to answer them and therefore did begin to incline to thinke better of the Roman Church then you had perswaded me but now I see that they are but the painting and colouring of a deformed face being without all true beauty And for the places omitted I haue them
Anno 600 saith because we are redcemed wee haue this benefit that when we are taken away from the habitation of our flesh wee are presently earied to beauenly rewards Tertul. de Cor. mil. And the same Tertullian was the first that spake of praying for the dead who also consesseth that if you require Scripture for it you shall find nonc but tradition shall be pretended as the increaser custome the confirmer and faith the obseruer of it Yet it is to bee acknowledged that euen the most approued of the ancient haue prayed for the dead as Augustine for his Mother Monica and Ambrose for Theodosius but doubtingly because without ground in the Word Elymas Then I hope you will yeeld this to be more ancient then your not praying for the dead and your vtter denying of Purgatory as an inuention deriued from the Hâ—â—â—hen Paul Their praying for the dead was not the same vvith yours but either for the augmentation of their glory who were in Heauen as Ambrose hauing said that Theodesius remained in the light and gloried in the company of the Saints yet he prayeth giue perfect rest to thy seruant Theodosius Confes l. 9. c. 13. or to expresse their affection as Augustine who saith of his mother Monica I beleeus that thou hast done what I desire but accept of the voluntaries of my mouth Or if they thought them damned they prayed for a mitigation of their paines or holding that they might all bee kept in one common place till the day of iudgement as Laâ—tantius sheweth de diuin Draem lib. 7. cap. 21. Iren. lib. 5. Thâ—y prayed for the hastening of their Deliuerance They prayed not for soules in Purgatoric neither did they which held Purgatory beleeue that veniall sinnes were there done away and temporall punishments satisfied for till after Anno 1000 as your Church now teacheth and therefore euen these points as you hold them are new and vnthought of by antiquity And seeing no such custome is grounded vpon the Word of God as Tertullian hath confessed our denying thus to pray is more Apostolicall and so more ancient then either yours or theirs Serg. Paul But thus you will make the Church in the time of these holy Fathers to haue beene no true Church and them no true members whom we all yet haue in high esteeme Paul It doth not follow because they erred in one thing in practice through too much affection that they were no Church for it is not any errour that ouerturncth the Church but errours razing the foundation as hath beene before declared Elymas But these holy Fathers vsed the same things about the seruice of God that wee doe as holy Water and Chrisme both to the sicke and to the baptized and Exorcizing and Crossing and honoured the Saints departed with going to visit their Reliques and praying vnto them and commended a Monasticall life and confession to a Priest and workes of penance wherein the very life of our Religion consisteth And therefore if we be no true Church they were no true Church neither Paul Although there were some tincture of these superstitions in the Church in the dayes of the holy Fathers yet there was great difference betwixt them and you herein They vsed the Crosse not for any confidence they had in it but as a signe of their profession as a Aruobius testifieth saying We doe neither worship nor wish crosses And Ambrose speaking of Helena who found the Crosse of Christ faith Arnob. l. 8. Shee found the title and worshipped the King but not the wood Ambros de Obit Theoâ—os For this were a Gentile errour and a venity of the wicked They anointed the sicke at the beginning of their sicknesse in the part grieued to ease them as Gregory Turoneusis saith Hist Franc. l. 6. c. 7. But you to conferre grace at the end of sicknesse when there is no more hope of life They did not pray to the Saints departed as able to heare them but in their soliloquies by way of consabulation through a Prosopopeia For they held that the Saints departed could not heare them witnesse Saint Augustine who to proue that they know not what is done ox said here bringeth in that place of Esai L. de Cura prâ— mont c. 13. 63. Abraham knoweth vs not and 2 King 22. I will gather thee to thy Fathers that thy eyes may not see the ewill to come And they did commonly hold then that all the faithfull departed remained in some secret place out of heauen where they had not the sight of God as Iren. l. 5. Iust Martyr qu. 60. 76. Orig. Hom. 7. in Leuit. Chrys Hom. 38. in 1 Cor. c. And for worship they gaue them none neither Doulia nor Latria For so saith the same Augustine They are to be honoured for imitation not bee worshipped for Religion Aug. de vera relig c. 55. And he vseth the very word expressing Doulia Wee honour the Saints with charitis not with seruice Neither did they vse praying to them in their publique seruice For so also Saint Augustine saith Aug. de Cinit Dei lib. 22. c. 10. The Martyrs are named at our sacrifice as men of God that haue â—uercome the world but they are not called vpon by the Priest that sacrificeth But you pray vnto them in all your Liturgyes and worship them with Doulia And for all other things by you alledged though they haue been anciently vsed yet their beginning is not vnknowne vnto vs. Elym But you haue not yet answered my argument prouing that our case and theirs is all one For admit that there were some little difference yet this cannot conclude against vs as no Church if they were a true Church seeing wee agree together in one kinde of seruice Paul They agreed not with you in errours against the foundation and therefore were not implicated in the same danger as euen in this about the Saints departed where the chiefe danger lyeth viz. in worshipping them and trusting to them as to Mediators that shall preuaile and that haue power to helpe But you shall not thus put me from the first thing propounded viz. to shew the beginning of these superstitions Pope Alexander first instituted Holy Water Anno 115. Sabel Tom. 1. Concil Pope Higâ—â—â— Chryâ—â—ne in Baptisme Anno 141. Euseb lib. 4 c. 10. An Exorcift was first ordained by Pope Caius Anno 283. Sabel The signe of the Crosse was not vsed but for signification 300 yeares or if for blessing with inuocation vpon him that was crucified the trust not being in it but in Christ crucified A materiall Crosse or Crucifixe was not set vp till 400 yeares after Christ neither was it appointed till Anno 710 when the Trullan Councell ordained Cap. 82. Policbron l. 5. c. 12. Can. 15. that Christ should bee pictured hanging vpon the Crosse The first Crosse erected in England was Anno 635 in the time of King Oswald In the fift Carth. Councell