Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	canonical_a	church_n	tradition_n	2,634	5	9.1479	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01304	A confutation of a popishe, and sclaunderous libelle in forme of an apologie: geuen out into the courte, and spread abrode in diuerse other places of the realme. VVritten by VVilliam Fulke, Bacheler in Diuinitie, and felowe of S. Ihons Colledge in Cambridge.	Fulke, William, 1538-1589.; Feckenham, John de, 1518?-1585, attributed name.	1571 (1571)	STC 11426.2; ESTC S120640	88,715	248

of the regions of Europe this daie to forsake your Hereticall Schismaticall and Antichristian Churche of Rome and to ioigne them selues to the true Catholike and Apostolike churche of Christ whiche approueth all her doctrine out of the holie Scriptures and by the same reproueth all your heresies and erronious opinions the iudgement and triall of whiche holy Canonicall scriptures you neuer yet durst abide It is not therefore any priuate condemnation whiche is pronounced out of Gods woorde against heresies whose aucthoritie in all thynges is highest and of al menne to bee obeied Finally where you affirme that the churche of Christe was not destitute of the holy Ghoste I agree with you but that your Churche is the Churche of Christe I maie in no wise acknowledge And truthe it is that the true Churche did alwaies reclaime against the heresies of your church as thei sprong vp and increased in the worlde and receiued that reward whiche true Prophetes haue accustomed to receiue of wicked tyrantes namely persecution imprisonmente and cruell death as appeared in Bertramus Marsilius of Padua Pauperes de Lugduno Iohannes de Gandauo Bruno Andegauensis Iohannes Wickleue Iohannes Hus Hieronimus de Praga c. all whiche with many other in seuerall times places reproued and confuted your false Churche and the errours thereof some in Italie some in Fraunce some in Flaunders some in Germanie some in Bohemia and some in Englande and for the moste part were either murthered or otherwise cruelly persecuted for their labours But yet the heresies of your church did not escape vnspoken against and confuted by them The Papiste The sixte and laste consideration that I come not to their churche is because I am not of their Churche S. Augustine in putting difference of churches saieth how vnto them whiche haue not all one Sacramētes there can not be one religion nor consequently one Churche And the cause why I am not of their Churche but refuse to communicate with theym in religion besides this saiyng of S. Augustine that we should not Communicate in sacramentes with those men whose doctrine we can not aproue and allow I do refuse to be of their church because I cannot learne nor vnderstande of what church they are of For thei beyng first Baptized in the catholike churche and in the very self faieth and religion wherin I do at this present time beleue and remaine thei are departed therefro some to the Lutheranes Church some to the Zwinglians and comyng last of al to the church Geneua they are in maner fled from that church also and by attributing the chief supreme gouernment of this their English churche vnto the Quenes highnes thei are in doctrine directly against their old maister Caluine being the chief Apostle of the Church of Geneua whiche Caluine in the eight Chapter of the boke of his institutions doth directlie reason against Kynges and Princes for takyng vpon theim spirituall gouernment in the Church of Christ and in the same Chapiter he doeth muche commende the holy Bishop S. Ambrose and the noble Emperour Theodosius Ambrose for his greate stoutnes and resistance made against the Emperour And Theodosius for his greate submission and obediens shewed vnto the Bishop The history whereof is at large expressed in Ecclesiastica historia And the saide Caluine in hys exposition vppon the fowerth Chapiter of the prophete Amos doth taxe King Henry the eight by name because he alone of all other Princes was the first that toke vpon hym in the Church of Christ spirituall gouernmēt whose example in that poinct there was neuer one Prince in all Germanie nor yet in any place els where of the whole world that woulde followe the same but his owne naturall sonne Kyng Edward the sixte beyng then in his minoritie and againe the Queenes highnes that nowe is If therfore I shall departe from the comon knowen catholike Church wherin I stand I would gladly knowe of theim vnto what Church I shoulde repaire to be instructed with out errours wherin vnitie charitie and veritie doe dwel what forme of a churche are thei able to shew wherupon a christian man may be bolde to assure himselfe And if peraduenture they cease not ro pretende that the Primitiue Churche is that plat forme of the Churche wherunto they would reduce vs I answere that there be so many poinctes wherein they doe dissent from the Primitiue Churche like as I shall make sufficient proofe thereof that it can not be so it is onely pretended but it shall neuer be proued The Anabaptistes the Libertines and the Arians doe pretende gods worde and the Primitiue Churche as well as thei And because they are so bolde to name the primitiue church I aske of theim but this one questiō whether that this daie 50. or 60. yeres laste paste was their Church here in this realme or in any other parte of christendome VVhat particuler Church either here in Englande in the laste yere of Kyng Henry the eight his raigne or any other realme els can thei name that taught or receiued vniuersally throughout in all poinctes the doctrine that this presente Churche of Englande doeth now teache or from that daie a thousande yeres before that or from thence vnto the tyme of Christe and his Apostles If thei can not shewe any one suche Churche as I am well assured thei shall neuer be able to doe then it muste nedes followe that either Christe had no Church in the worlde al that tyme till now their commyng or elles it muste needes follow that their Churche is a new inuented and vpstert Church whiche with christes Primitiue church hath no agreans like as it shall moste plainly appeare vnto you by these profes followyng The aunswere In your laste consideration you doe inconsiderately alledge that you are not of our Churche but shewe no sufficient reason why you ought not to bee one of our Churche You saie we are departed from the churche in whiche we were baptised as though if a manne were Baptised in a Churche of heretikes he is bounde to remaine in the same Churche and heretical faithe of that Churche in whiche he was baptised so that if a manne were baptised in the Churche of Arrianes Nouatianes Donatistes Pelagians he might not forsake the faithe and Churche in whiche he was baptised to become a true Christian catholike A childe of seuen yere old maie see how slender a reason it is for a manne to continue in any Churche or Religion because he receiued baptisme therin For if a Papist maie not become a Protestāt because he was Baptised in the Popishe churche by the same reason a Protestant must not become a Papist if he were baptised in the Protestantes Churche which you your self by no meanes will graunte The seconde reason you bryng is of the diuersitye of churches the Lutherane the Zwingliane the Geneuian As though the diuersitie of some opinions not of the greatest importāce maketh diuers churches The churche of Salisburie the churche

it is Prophesied in the xij Chapiter of sainct Ihons Reuelation And yet for fiftie or sixtie yere agone it had been no harde matter to haue shewed you diuers members of our Churche bothe in Englande in Bohemia as th' historie of the church declareth at large Also in Fraunce at Merindoll and about Lyōs but these you will saie agreed not with vs in all poinctes but I will aunswere you thei agréed in the cheifest poinctes necessary to eternall saluation For whatsoeuer we are able to shewe for our Churche I am sure you are neuer able to shewe your self for your churche that whiche you require vs to shewe namely a churche that hath continued from this tyme vpwarde vnto the Apostles that taught vniformely and in all poinctes the doctrine that the Popishe Churche nowe teacheth Whiche thyng when you haue performed I will doe the like for oure Churche In the meane time that whiche is a sufficiente rule to finde out the true Churche by the iudgement of Saincte Augustine I will declare vnto you In his booke the vnitate ecclesiae Capi. 2. Inter nos autem Donatistat quaestio est vbi sit ecclesia Quid ergo facturi sumus In verbis nostris eam quaesituri sumus an in verbis capitis sui domini nostri Iesu Christi Puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quaerere debemus qui veritas est optimè nouit corpus suum Betwene vs and the Donatistes saieth saincte Augustine the question is where the churche should bée What shall we doe then shall we seke her in our wordes or in the woordes of her heade our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke that rather in his wordes we ought to seke her which is the truthe and beste knoweth his own bodie And in the. xvj chapiter of the same booke he writeth thus of the Donatistes Vtrum ipsi ecclesiam teneant non nisi diuinarū scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant That is whether thei haue the churche on their side let theim shewe none otherwise but by the Canonicall bookes of holy scriptures Many other suche testimonies are in S. Augustine by whiche it is plaine that he geueth this infallible rule to knowe the true churche to examine the doctrine therof onely by the scriptures But wheras you saie that Anabaptistes Libertines and Arians pretende the word of god and the primitiue Churche what meane you therby that we should forsake the worde of god the Primitiue churche by whiche all heretikes haue béen cōfuted what soeuer thei pretended For though heretikes pretende the scriptures yet onely by the scriptures thei are to be cōfuted though thei appeale to the iudgemente of the primitiue church yet by the primitiue church thei are condemned for heretikes I maie as well say that Arianes Libertines and Anabaptistes boste them selues to be the true Catholike Churche therefore wee must not allowe the true catholike churche It is pitie to see menne that would be coumpted wise and learned to reason so fondly and vnlearnedly For of all other reasons it is the vainest and feeblest shift that the Papistes vse to flie frō the scriptures to the aucthoritie of the Churche in confutation of heresies For there was neuer yet heresie did arise but there was as greate controuersie of the Churche as of the opinion for euery heretike boasteth as well of the Churche as of the scriptures but when all is dooen his bragges of bothe muste bee beaten doune onely by the scriptures But because you make so proude vauntes that you will so plainlie proue that our Churche hath none agreans with the primitiue churche of Christ in discourse of that controuersie with you I will sette for the bothe what is the Primitiue churche and how we agree therewith and I doubte not but that I shal bee able by the grace of God bothe to iustifie our cause againste your false accusations and also to ouerthrowe youre falshodde whiche you haue heaped vppe to ouerwhelme the truthe And as I haue confuted your sixe considerations which vnto you seme of greate importaunce so by Gods helpe I shall auoide all other youre calumniations in whiche with some subtiltie but more impudencie and moste of all impietie you goe aboute to intangle the consciences of suche as bee ignorante and vnlearned to withdrawe their obedience ▪ from the godly lawes of this realme whiche are established for the mainteinyng of Gods true Religion and the abolishyng of all Idolatrie and superstition The Papiste Argumentes gathered out of the Scriptures prouyng that this late reformed Englishe churche hath none agreans with the Primitiue churche of Christ. The aunswere The very title of your argumentes declareth of what force youre argumentes are Your reasons are tenne in noumber whiche if thei were all graūted to be true yet foloweth not this conclusion that our Churche hath no agreance with the Primitiue Churche of Christe excepte you would affirme that all the doctrine of the Primitiue Churche were comprehended in these tenne poinctes Again your owne Popishe Churche differeth in these tenne poinctes as muche from the Primitiue Churche as ours therefore by your owne Logike I will conclude that your Popish churche hath no agreance with the church of Christ. 1. For neither you haue all thinges common 2. neither dooe you sell your houses and landes to putte the price in common 3. Neither doe you make diuision to euery manne accordyng to his necessitie 4. Neither are all mēbers of your Churche so prouided for that none dooe begge 5. Neither doe you baptise onely in the name of Christe 6. Neither dooe you giue the holy ghost by laiyng on your handes 7. Neither dooe you restore theim to health whom you annoincte with oile beyng sicke 8. Neither dooe you make open confession of your synnes 9. Neither dooe you celebrate the Sacramente after supper 10. Neither dooe you abstaine from bloodde and strangled therefore by your owne reason you haue no agreance with the Primitiue Churche of Christe Or if you maie haue any agreance these differences notwithstanding why maie not we the same differences nothyng lettyng vs haue sufficient agremente therewith You see that either your argument is nothyng worthe or els you haue as little agreance with the Primatiue churche as we Your only refuge is this that it is not necessary for you to haue any agreance with the primitiue Churche And that is the opinion of all Papistes whiche is diligently to be noted that you disclaime of al title of the Primitiue Churche whiche you holde was but an infante and by addition of your doctrine and Ceremonies is growne to bee of womannes state As though Christ maried his Churche when she was vnder age and so the matrimonie was not ratified and consumated before the Pope had nourtured her in his schole vntill she came to yeres of discretion For it is as lawfull for me so to inferre vppon your allegorie as for you so to allegorise of her But that you maie the better vnderstande what

Basile affirmeth that it was a tradition of the Apostles that who so euer did not so he shoulde be deposed therfore wheras our reformatours doe but sprincle a little water in the foreheade of the partie baptized it may be quickly espied that thei follow not the primitiue churche The aunswere Our sauiour Christ commaundeth vs to Baptise in the name of the Father and of the Soonne and of the holie Ghoste whiche whether it bée by dippyng the bodie into the water or by powryng water vpon the bodie the misticall signification of washyng is sufficiently expressed and so longe the Baptisme is right as for the nōber of dippinges is nothyng materiall We read in the scriptures diuers formes of washing The Eunuche was Baptised by Philip goyng in naked into a Riuer or Brooke And so Baptised Ihon in Iordan Other that were Baptised in their houses it is moste like that water was powred on them as Cornelius and them that were with hym And the keper of the prison with his housholde Actes xvj And as for the Ceremonie of thrise dippyng although it was vsed of many to signifie the Trinitie yet was it not generall nor of any necessitie For in the fowerth Counsaile of Toledo it was determined that all was one whether a childe were Baptized with three dippynges or with one alone And yet it was there decreed vpon a good consideration that in Spaine thei should vse but one dippyng The woordes are these in the fowerth Counsaile Toletane and the fiueth Canone Ne tamen haereticis videamur consentire qui tertio mergum dum eorum morem seruamus cautum est ne in Hispaenia fiat baptismus nisi in vna mersione that is to saie Least we should seme to agree with heretikes whiche vse to dippe thrise while wee reteine their maner of baptisyng it is decreed that no Baptisme in Spaine bee ministered but with one onely dippyng In this decree of the Coūsaile twoo thynges especially are to bee noted Firste that the three dippynges was not alwaies and in all places obserued as a necessarie matter and therefore your argumente is fallen to the grounde Secondely that it is profitable to alter and chaunge suche Ceremoeies as are vsed of heretikes that wee seme not to agree with theim in any thyng in whiche it is lawful for vs to disagree And for this consideration doe we refuse to dip thrise because we would not seme to agrée with you whiche are heretikes although wee acknowledge that of it self it is a thyng indifferente to dippe twise or thrise or ones or not at al to dip but onely to poure on water in signe of that spirituall ablution whiche is represented by that Sacramente of Baptisme Wherefore you haue a verie quicke sight that can espie a knotte in a Rushe and of so small a gnat to make so great an Elephante as though all Christianitie stoode in thrise dippyng of a child in Baptisme whiche I haue proued not onely not to haue been alwaies obserued but also by decree of a Counsaill to haue been expressely forbidden Which Ceremonie although it bee noumbred emong the canons commonly called of the Apostles yet hath he a meane iudgement in antiquitie that can not descerne theim from Apostolike writynges But because you bryng in the Tradition of the Apostles you muste nedes giue me leaue to presse you with the same aucthoritie and to shewe that you your self obserue not the Traditions of the Apostles In the vj. Canon of the Apostles it is commaunded that no Bishoppe Prieste nor Deacon shall put awaie his wife vnder colour of religion and thei that doe so shall be excomunicate And in the ninthe and tenthe Canons it is decreed that whosoeuer is presente at the Communion and dooeth not communicate that he should bee excommunicate How these Canons of the Apostles if you will needes haue them so called be obserued in your Popishe Clergie and your priuate Masse what nede I to rehearse And yet you agree with the primitiue Churche in all thynges and we haue none agreaunce therewith at all The Papiste Thirde in the Primitiue churche they vsed Oyle and Chrisma in the ministratiō of diuers Sacramentes which christ hymselfe did ordaine and sainctifie the night before his passion as witnesseth S. Cypriane And his Apostles did commende the same vnto the Churche by their traditions as witnesseth sainct Basile and S. Augustine whiche these our reformatours will none of The aunswere In the Primitiue Churche there was not so many diuerse Sacramentes as you speake of but onely the Sacramente of Baptisme and of the bodie and bloode of christe and in neither of these was there any institution or vsage of oile chrisme And although in the later tyme ceremonies increased that oyle was vsed in baptisme yet was there not so many Sacramentes for Augustine saieth vnto Ianuaerius Epis. 118. Vnde Sacramentis numero paucissimis obseruatione facillimis significatione praestantissimis ▪ societatem noui populi colligauit sicut est Baptismus Trinitatis nomine consecratus communicatio corporis Christi sanguinis ipsius si quid aliud in scripturis canonicis cōmendatur Wherfore saieth Augustine God hath bounde the societie of his newe people with Sacramentes in number fewest in obseruation easiest in significatiō most excellent as is baptisme consecrated in the name of the Trinitie the communion of the bodie and blood of Christe and if any thing els be commended in the Canonicall scriptures The same Augustine and Chrisostome also vpon the water and blood that issued out of Christes side do gather that the Sacramentes of the church flowed out of his side namely Baptisme and the Supper of the lord Aug. Hom. in Ioann 20. Chrysostom ad Neophytos Augustine also in the thirde booke de doctrina christiana Cap. 9. rehearseth but these twoo Sacramentes speakyng of those that are properly called Sacramentes for otherwise both he and other auncient writers extende the name of Sacrament to al ceremonies And yet Gregorie accompteth washyng of feete to be a Sacramente as Baptisme and the Supper whiche is no sacramente with you And as for the ceremonie of annointyng in baptisme it is as lawfull for vs to abrogate as for you to omitte the drinke of milke and Honie after baptisme other such ceremonies which you knowe were vsed as well as oyle and Chrisme But our Sauiour Christe the night before his Passion did ordeine and sanctifie Oyle and Chrisme for suche purposes I meruaile what Cipriane dare be so bolde to affirme it séeyng the Euangelistes make no mention thereof and here againe if you hadde noted the place of Cipriane wee might better haue considered of his aucthoritie Diuerse writinges are set forth in his name whiche were neuer any of his workes The Papiste Fowerth S. Basile saieth that all determiminations and instructions which are preached and kepte in the Primitiue churche of Christe we haue receiued theim partely of the scriptures and partly by the traditions of the Apostles whiche both hath

like force and strength vnto godlynes As for example the instructions which thei haue that trust in the name of Iesus Christe to signe them selues with the signe of Christes crosse to praie towardes the Easte to vse wordes of inuocation at the shewing of the Breade and the Cuppe in the holy Euchariste to blesse the water of the Fonte the Oyle of the holy vnction and that he also which is baptized should be thrise dipped in the water and suche other like thinges whiche are taught and obserued in the Sacramente of Baptisme as to renounce the Deuill and his angels salte spitle and the exorcisme there made to the expulsion of the deuill All these thinges and other like whiche are tought and obserued in christes churche we haue theim saieth sainct Basile ether of the scriptures or els by the tradition of the Apostles whiche are of like force and strēgth vnto pietie and godlynes wheras the reformatours of this English church do esteme and iudge al the premises for impietie and vngodlines The aunswere In this your fowerth argumente if it maie bee called an argumente you huddle vp a number of Ceremonies together all whiche out of Basile you would proue to bee Traditions of the Apostles In deede Basile in the. xxvij Chapiter of his booke De spiritu sancto is driuē to this shifte that either he must acknowledge many suche vnfruictfull Ceremonies as in his tyme were crepte into the churche to be vnprofitable or els to flie to the tradition of vnwritten verities The same in effecte ceaceth Augustine and yet neither of bothe was so ignoraunte but that at suche time as thei did throughly consider either the dignitie of the holie scriptures or the natures of suche humaine Traditions thei iudged otherwise of the whole matter For Basile in his moralles Diffinit xxvi saieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. that it behoueth euery woorde and deede to bee aucthorised by the testimonie of the scripture inspired of God bothe for the certaine perswasion of the good and the confusion of the euill And in the 8. diffini 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. If all that is not of faith is synne as the Apostle saieth and faithe is of hearyng and hearyng by the woorde of God what so euer is beside the diuine scripture beyng not of faithe is synne Vpon whiche conclusion a manne maie inferre that all suche Traditions as Basile before defended beyng beside the scriptures ar sinne The same Basile in his brief diffinitions to this question whether it be profitable for theim that come newlie to the faithe immediately to bee instructed out of the scriptures Maketh this aunswere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. It is bothe conueniente and necessarie that euery manne far his necessarie vse should learne out of the diuine scriptures bothe that he maie bee certainely perswaded in his Religion and also that he bee not before accustomed to humaine Traditions Let this therfore suffice for sainct Basile to aunswere hymself Saincte Augustine also in his 118. Epistle where he speaketh moste fauourably for Traditions hath these woordes Sed hoc nimis doleo quod multa quae in diuinis libris saluberrimè praecepta sunt minus curantur tam multis praesumptionibus sic plena sint omnia vt grauius corripiatur qui per octauas suas terram nudo pede tetigerit quam qui mētem vinolentia sipelire est But this saieth Augustine dooeth greue me to muche that many thinges whiche in Gods boke are moste wholsemly commaunded are lesse regarded and all thynges are so full of presumptions that he is more sharpely reproued whiche hath touched the yearth with his bare foote in tyme of his vtas then he that hath buried his mynde with dronkennes And in the same place he saieth of Traditions Quamuis enim neque hoc inueniri possit quomodo contra fidem sint ipsam tamen religionem quam paucissimis manifestissimis celebrationum Sacramentis misericordia dei esse liberam voluit seruilibus oneribus premunt vt tolerabilior sit conditio Iudaeorum qui etiam si tempus libertatis non agnouerint legalibus tamen sarcinis nō humanis praesumptionibus subijciuntur that is to saie For although this can not bee founde how thei are contrary to the faithe yet thei oppresse with sclauishe burdeins the religion it self whiche the mercie of God would haue to bée free with moste fewe and manifeste Sacramentes of celebrations So that the state of the Iewes is more tollerable then ours for although thei haue not acknowledged the tyme of libertie yet thei are subiecte to burthens laied on theim by the lawe not to humaine presumptions By this you see Augustines right iudgemente of suche vnprofitable Ceremonies and Traditions Whiche althoughe Basile and he cōiecture and gesse to haue béen receiued of the Apostles because thei knewe none other originall of theim yet it dooeth not followe that thei were deliuered by the Apostles in deede For many of theim if your owne aucthours dooe not lye were instituted by diuers Popes of Rome long after the age of the Apostles And some it is plaine were inuented by heretikes For the firste that we read of in any auncient and authenticall writer that hadde in reuerence the signe of the Crosse were the Valentiniane heretikes as witnesseth Irenaeus libri primi Capit. 1. whiche thei called Oron crucem confirmatiuam the strengthenyng Crosse. And abused the testimonies of sainct Paule as you Papistes doe where he saieth verbum crucis c. The woorde or preachyng of the crosse mihi non eueniat gloriari c. God forbidde that I should reioyce but in the Crosse of Christe But afterwarde true Christians vsed that signe to testifie vnto Heathen menne that thei were Christians and were not ashamed of the ignominious death of Christ whiche the Gētiles did dispightfully caste in their teeth and at length it grewe to a meare superstition and laste of all to moste horrible Idolatrie when the Image of the Crosse was worshipped sensed and praied vnto Praier towarde the Easte was vsed of the Christians in the aunciente Church to testifie that thei differed from the Iewes who praied towarde the West least thei should seem to worshippe the Sunne risyng as the Gentiles did And although woordes of inuocation were vsed at the shewyng of the bread and the Cuppe yet was there no inuocation of the Sacramentall breade and Cuppe but of God. Of the other Ceremonies of anoinctyng and thrise dipping hath been spoken before That the Apostles vsed no suche blessyng of the water of Baptisme as you doe it is manifeste when thei Baptised in euery Riuer and Brooke that thei came to In dedè thei did cōsecrate the water for that time when they vsed it to serue for the holy vse but did putte no holines into it which should remain after that baptisme was ministred with it as you doe As for the stipulatiō of renouncyng the deuill c. is in dede the doctrine of

vniuersally and haue been alwaies vsed in the Churche Secondely that thei bee not contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles conteined in the holie scriptures for then it is moste certaine thei are no Traditions of the Apostles for thei did not deliuer one thyng in writyng and a contrary thyng in Tradition Thirdly that whatsoeuer Tradition of the Apostles is not conteined in the scriptures although wee knewe it came from the Apostles it is lawfull vpon good consideration to alter it For seyng that all necessarie matters are conteigned in the scriptures whatsouer thei deliuered whiche is not conteined in the scriptures was but temporall might be chaunged aswell as the decree De sanguine et suffocato of blood strangled And that we ought not to receiue whatsoeuer is commended to vs as a Traditiō of the Apostles maie appere by these exāples Irenaeus was a manne that liued nere to the age of the Apostles for he sawe as he hymself doeth testifie Polycarpus the disciple of sainct Ihon. And he declareth that it was a Tradition commonly receiued in Asia as of sainct Ihon the Apostle and of other of the Apostles that our sauiour Christe liued fiftie yeres whiche is contrary to the truthe of the Gospell Irenaeus libri 2. Cap. xxxv If suche a fable could bee credited for an Apostolike Tradition so sone after the Apostles departure what maie bee iudged of those that in two hundreth three hundreth fiue hundreth sixe hundreth eight hundreth yeres after the Apostles were not heard of but sodainlie were sette out in the worlde as Traditions of the Apostles Eusebius also reporteth libri v. Cap. xviii that it was alledged as a Traditiō of the Apostles that Christ commaunded theim not to departe from Hierusalem twelue yeres after his ascension whiche is manifestly contrary to the the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Tertuliane after he was fallen into the errour of the Montanistes voucheth the Tradition of the Apostles against the Catholikes whom he calleth Psychicos that is animales naturall men and not spirituall Ieronime in Euangel Math. libr. 4. Cap. xxv declareth that it was a Tradition emong the Iewes that Christ should come at midnight whervpon he gathereth that the Tradition of the Apostles was deriued that on Easter eue the people should not depart out of the churche before midnight but tary there for the commyng of christ A likely matter that the Apostles would make a Tradition of the erroure of the Iewes The same Ieronyme vpon the firste Chapiter of Agge saieth verie well of the Apostolicall Traditions Sed alia quae absque auctoritate testimonijs scripturarum quasi Apostolica traditione sponte reperiunt atque confingunt percutit gladius dei But other thinges also speakyng of heretikes whiche thei finde out and feigne of them selues without the aucthoritie and testimonies of the scriptures as it were by Tradition of the Apostles the sworde of God dooeth strike By these examples and testimonies it is manifeste that wée must not by and by receiue what soeuer is saied to be a Tradition of the Apostles The Papiste Fowerth saincte Augustine in his thirde Epistle ad Ianuarium in speakyng of these thinges whiche in diuerse partes are obserued in christes Churche diuersely he geueth that certeine and sure rule that if thei be not against the professed faieth of christes churche nor against the good liuyng and maners of men but haue in theim some maner of encouragement of a better life wheresoeuer saieth he we dooe knowe anie such thing diuersely to be vsed we shal not only not disalow theim but also folow thē with praise and innouation of life So that the infirmitie and weakenes of some men be not let therunto when otherwise if more profette maie come therby vnto the good then hurte vnto the weake offended therby sine dubitatione faciēda sunt without doubte saieth he al suche although thei be diuerse and in diuerse places diuersely obserued yet they ought to be continued and kepte The aunswere Wée agree with sainct Augustine that suche Ceremonies as are instituted for order and comelinesse sake beyng diuers in diuerse churches if thei be not contrary to the Scriptures are to bée obserued of suche as remaine in those Churches And what this should make either for you or againste vs I dooe not sée at all For your Ceremonies are voide of edifiyng vnorderly vndecent for the churche of Christ and then the opinion of merite and satisfaction that you ioigne vnto them beyng contrary to the Christian faithe and the aucthoritie of the Scriptures maketh thē to be vtterly abhominable Furthermore when you make them essentiall partes of the religion and worshippe of GOD our sauiour Christe hym self out of the Prophete Esaie doeth vtterly condemne thē For GOD will not be worshipped with the doctrine Traditions and preceptes of menne Matth. xv Thus neither your ten reasōs out of the scriptures nor your ten argumentes out of the doctours nor your fower bulwarkes out of S. Augustine are able to defende your Popishe churche from ouerthrowe whiche if she take vpon her to encounter with the truthe muste needes bée discomfited and come to vtter destruction The Papiste Besides that this refourmed Englishe churche hath no agreaunce with the catholike churche of christe the religion thereof doeth onely stande of negatiues like as it shall appeare in the processe followyng The aunswere Besides that your Rhetorike in railyng on our Churche is verie vnreasonable your Sophistrie it self in quarellyng againste vs is voide of sufficient subtiltie not onely to defende it self but at leaste wise to hide it self For what impudente kinde of arguing call you this by enumeration of a fewe particulers to conclude any vniuersall proposition These newe reformators deny twentie thynges whiche the Papistes affirme ergo their religion standeth onely of negatiues Maie not I likewise reason the Papistes denie fourtie thynges that the Protestauntes affirme Ergo the Religion of Papistes standeth onely vpon negatiues Furthermore whē euery affirmatiue proposition implieth a negation of his contradictorie and euery negatiue propositiō importeth an affirmation of his contradictorie you maie as well saie that it standeth altogether vpon affirmatiues as you dooe vpon negatiues Like as in the tenne commaūdementes of GOD onely twoo are affirmatiue and eight are negatiue wherein all the duetie of a Christian manne consisteth you might reason that Gods commaundementes stande almoste all of negatiues as though God did onely tell vs what we should not doe and did not teach vs what wée should dooe like as you conclude afterward vpō the sale of Clare the Butchers horse but that right reason telleth vs that the prohibitiue Commaūdementes are also preceptiue and the preceptiue commaundementes are also prohibitiue for he whiche forbiddeth adulteterie commaundeth a chaste life and he whiche commaundeth to honour our parentes forbiddeth vs to disobey the same But because faithe whiche is the foundation of religion is an affirmation of those thinges whiche are beleued