due to God onely Exod. 22. 20. and testifie as expresly That holy men did sacrifice to God onely Yet you do sacrifice to Images for you burne Incense to them Pa. I confesse we burne Incense to Images but I deny that that is to sacrifice to them Prot. They who burnt Incense to any thing but God are reproued in the Old Testament euen they who burnt Incense to the Brazen Serpent though the Serpent was a figure of Christ And it belonged to the Priest only to burn Incense Which argues That to burne Incense was to sacrifice in old time and that you in burning Incense to Images doe sacrifice vnto them Pa. To burne Incense was a sacrifice in old time but so it is not now for wee see such as are no Priests burne it in our Churches Prot. So some who were no Priests tooke vpon them to burne Incense in the old Law And therefore if because it is burned now by them who are no Priests it followes Ergo it is no sacrifice now Surely by the same reason we must deny that it was a sacrifice in old time But see I pray you at leasure how fully this foolery is discouered by D. Rainolds and let vs proceed In the Scripture Priests are expresly forbidden to shaue their heads Ezech. 44. 20. yet the Religious sort among you must haue their heads shauen In the Scripture it is expresly written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onely shalt thou serue Matt. 4. 10. Yet you teach That a man may worship Hee Saints and Shee Saints yea Relikes besides the Lord his God In the Scriptures it is expresly written When yee pray vse no vaine repititions Yet you haue appointed a forme of praier vpon the Beads in which the Aue Mary is to be said one hundred and fiftie times and the Pater Noster fifteene and the Creed thrice Besides since that you haue set vs out a Iesus Psalter in which there is a forme of praier wherein fifteen such petitions as this Iesu Iesu Iesu giue mee here my purgatory are to bee repeated ten times which makes in all one hundred and fiftie petitions in which the name of Iesus is repeated foure hundred and fiftie times which argue yee allow of vaine repetitions In the Scriptures it is expresly written That in vaine they worship God who teach for doctrines mens commandements Yet you ouer and besides the Commandements of God haue written others which some of you call the commandements of the Church some commandements of the Canon law which are at fewest fiue if not sixe some say Ten euen iust as many as those of Gods which you vrge more strictly then the Commandements of God for Grauius plectitur contra vnum Papae decretum quaÌ„ delinquens contra diuinum praeceptum Euan geltum Hee that offends against the Popes Law is more grieuously punished then he who offends against Gods Law and the Gospel saith Gerson In the Scripture it is expresly written That whosoeuer shall put away his wife except it bee for whoredome and marries another commits adultery Matt. 19. 9. Yet your Alexander the sixt consented that Lewis the twelfth of France should put away his wife because shee was barren and deformed marry Anne the wife to Lewis the eleuenth his predecessour And your Pope Coelestine the third set forth a Decree That when of married persons the one falleth into heresie the marriage is dissolued and the Catholike partie is free to marrie againe In the Scriptures it is expresly written That our Sauiour after his Resurrection appeared first to Mary Magdalen yet many of you say Wee must beleeue he first appeared to his Mother Mary Pa. True for Bernardinus de Bustis hauing noted That our Sauiour after his Resurrection appeared first vnto his Mother addes Ft hanc opinionem tenet sancta Mater Ecclesia And this is the opinion of our holy Mother the Church And Baronius falling to speake of the same point Vetus traditio per manus maiorum ac per subsequentia secula ad posteros dilapsa testatur Christum dominum nostrum apparuisse prâ—mum omnium sanctissimae genetrici Mariae quod nemo pius puto neg ar it It is saith hee an ancient tradition of our Ancestors which is come to vs from hand to hand that our Sauiour Christ appeared first to his most holy Mother Mary and I thinke no godly man will deny it Prot. In the Scripture it is expresly written That hee who blasphemeth against the holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen Yet you teach That blasphemy against the holy Ghost may bee forgiuen In the Scripture we read expresly That S. Iohn was the disciple whom Iesus loued Ioh. 13. 23. compared with Chap. 21. 20. 24. And yet you will needs it was Saint Peter whom Iesus loued most intirely In the Scripture wee read expresly That when Cornelius met S. Peter and fell at his feete to adore him S. Peter reproued him for it Act. 10. 25 26. Yet your Psâ—udo-Peters are so farre from refusing adoration when it is offered that some of them haue presented themselues to the people that they might be adored In the Scripture it is expresly written That our Sauiour speaking of the Sacramentall Cup said Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26. 27. Yet you say All need not drinke thereof Yea yee say All shall not drinke thereof Patris Primitiua Ecclesia populum a Communâ—one Calicis non prohibebant nos arcemus c. The Fathers in the Primitiue Church did not forbid the people to drinke of the Cup but we driue them from it saith Aeneas Syluius That which was the Sacramentall Cup after the words of Consecration in the Scripture is expresly called The fruit of the Vine Matth. 26. 29. Yet yee say That after words of Consecration vttered it is not the fruit of the Vine Wine which is in the Sacramentall Cup but blood In the Scripture it is expresly written That the other element deliuered by our Sauiour Christ to his Apostles at the celebration of the Communion was Bread for so it is called after the words of Consecration vttered as well as before Yet ye say That after the words of Consecration vttered it is not Bread which is deliuered to the Communicants In the Scriptures wee read expresly That S. Paul in nothing was inferiour to the chiefe Apostles 1 Cor. 12. 11. Yet ye push at it when we tell you S. Paul was equall to Peter in power In the Scriptures we read expresly That a man is iustified by faith without the works of the Law Rom. 3. 28. Yet ye say Workes iustifie In the Scripture we read expresly That as â—y one man sinne entred into the world and death by sinne so death went ouer all men in whom all men haue sinned Rom. 5. 12. Yet yee say The Virgin Mary
neuer sinned In the Scriptures Saint Paul speaking of Concupiscence in expresse termes calls it sinne Rom. 6. 12. as you your selues confesse Yet yee deny Concupiscence is sin and tell vs soberly that Apostolus Concupiscentiam peccatum votaâ— at non liceâ— nobis it a loqâ—â— Though the Apostle calls it sinne yet we may not call it so In the Scriptures we read expresly That whatsoeuer is not of faith is sin Rom. 14. 23. Yet yee teach That many actions done by Infidels are not finne In the Scriptures it is expresly written That if any Brother haue a wife that beleeueth not if she be content to dwell with him hee should not forsake her and if any woman haue an vnbeleeuing husband who is content to dwell with her shee should not forsake him 1 Cor 7. 12 13. Yet yee teach That a beleeuing brother may put away his vnbeleeuing wife though she be content to dwell with him and a beleeuing woman may put away her vnbeleeuing husband though he be content to dwell with her Yea ye teach That the vnbeleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing They must part companie Pa. Indeed I read in Binnius that Licet in principie nascentis Ecclesiâ— erat licitum post susceptam sidem virum fidelem ab vxore infideli non discedere vel contra sed eandem in domo commerciâ— manere vt constat ex Paulo 1 Cor. 7. propter spem conuersionis alterius tamen ab hinc 800. annis Ecclesia contrarium prâ—cepit siâ—que lege consuetudine vsu introductum est vt fidelis non maneat cum inâ—iâ—eli Though in the Prime age of the Church it was lawfull for the beleeuer to continue in the same house and fellowship with the vnbeleeuer not to make a separation in hope the beleeuing partie might conuert the vnbeleeuing yet the Church about eight hundred yeares agoe gaue commandement to the contrary So that now partly by vertue of a law partly by custome it is generally receiued That the beleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing And to confesse the whole truth I read that Father Gaspar in India hauing baptized an honourable Indian Ladie when her husband made great meanes to haue her againe being desired to deliuer his opinion in a Councell held about that matter answered roundly That they ought not to giue holy things to dogs nor the persons of such as praise God vnto beasts Wherevpon it was concluded Her husband should not haue her againe Shee should bee married to another Pro. In the Scripture it is expresly written Defraud not one another except it bee with consent for a time that you may giue your selues to Fasting and Praier 1 Cor. 7. 5. Yet ye teach A married man may goe in pilgrimage euen to Ierusalem without his wiues consent Pa. I grant Innocentius the third decreed so vpon a speciall occasion but I know not whether that Decree stand in force now But proceed Pro. In the Scripture it is expresly written That he who cannot abstaine should marrie because it is better to marrie then to burne 1 Cor. 7. 9. Yet yee teach That some such as your Priests and Monkes may not marrie though they burne In the Scripture it is expresly written That it is a shame for a woman to bee shauen 1 Cor. 11. 6. Yet your Nunnes are shorne In the Scripture it is expresly written That Christians should praise God in their assenblies by singing Coloss 3. 16. Yet ye will not allow them to sing in their assemblies And this is confessed by your Binnius for Vt â—ideles in suis conuentibus Psalmis hymnis alternatim corde simul ore decan at is Deum landent a Paulo ad Coloss cap. 3. ad Eph. cap. 5. praeceptum esse fatâ—mur Sed dum olim vnà cum clericis etiam popolus promiscuè cantareâ— imper itiâ Canentium aliquando accidebat vt ij quorum vox inculta erat aut absona Harmonicum illum Ecclesiasticâ— dignitati congruentem concentum planè corrumperent Ad boâ— ergo incommodum a cantu religioso tollendum Ecclesiast institut hisce optimè prouisum est ne praeter certâ—s ad hoc opus ascrâ—ptes al ij in Ecclesia psallerent Wee confesse saith he Saint Paul commanded Christians to sing in their assemblies but because it fell out that some who had no skill in singing sung with other who had skill they marred the Musicke it was very well prouided by Ecclesiasticall Institutions That onely certaine Singing men and Quoristers should sing in Church assemblies In the Scripture wee read expresly That praiers should be conceiued in knowne languages 1. Cor. 14. Yet ye like not of that A Parisian Doctor tells vs Et si Apostolus linguâ intellect â preces velit celebrari tamen sanctam Ecclesiam iustissimis de causis contra statuisse That though the Apostle thought good praier should bee in knowne languages yet your Church vpon good reason hath decreed the contrarie In the Scripture wee read expresly That the vnlearned should say Amen at the end of praiers 1 Cor. 14. 16. which they did euen Ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae from the Apostles time as Dorantes conconfesseth Yet by your Religion The Clerke of the Parish only is to say Amen at the end of praiers In the Scripture it is expresly written That he is cursed who abideth not in all things which are written in the Law to doe them Gal. 3. 10. Yet yee teaching That some sinnes are pardonable of their owne nature must needs bee thought to teach by necessarie consequence That euerie such man is not cursed In the Scripture it is expresly written Euery man shall beare his owne burthen Galat. 6. 5. Yet yee teach That one man may beare anothers burthen for if one be enioined to fast in part of Penance another may fast for him In the Scripture it is expresly written That the Mediator betweene God and man is one and he is Christ Iesus 1 Tim. 2. 5. Yet yee generally teach That there are many mediators betweene God and man moe then Christ Iesus Pa. That is our generall doctrine I grant Yet there are among vs who teach Sanctos Angelos homines non dicendos esse mediatores Dei hominum sed potius mediatores ad mediatorem The holy Men and Angells are not to bee reputed mediators betweene God and man but rather mediators betweene the Mediator Yea some of vs simply denie that Saints be Mediators Vniuer salis Ecclesia Sanâ—tos colit sed non vt mediatores The Catholike Church worshippeth Saints but not as Mediators â—aith Viruesius Prot. That doctrine is as false as the other but it sufficeth mee that your ordinarie doctrine is proued to be contrarie to expresse Scripture I will passe to another instance By expresse Scripture married men may be made Bishops 1 Tim. 3. 2. Yet yee teach Married men may not be made
Because as they say in no one point that they can heare of will any of vs be tried by the iudgement and consent of Antiquitie I know the man what became of him he was hangd at Tiburne for Treason who first broached that slander on Tobith Mathew the most reuerend Archbishop of Yorke at this day who being almost eightie yeeres old preacheth more Sermons in a yeere then you can proue haue bin preached by all your Popes since Gregory the great his daies And I know that that man vaunted Ad Patres si quando licebit accedere confectum est praelium tà m sunt nostri quà m Gregorius 13. filiorum Ecclesiae Pater amantissimus If Controuersies of Religion came once to the decision of the Fathers all would goe on your side for the Fathers were as flat for you as Gregory the thirteenth your beloued Pope Yea and I know your Lay Catholikes in their Petition to his Maiestie suggested That for one place of a Father euill vnderstood sometimes falsified sometimes mutilated and sometimes wholly corrupted brought by vs they could produce a thousand not by patches and mammocks as we do but whole Pages whole Chapters whole Bookes and the vniforme consent of all the ancient Fathers and Catholike Church Yet I am of Scultetus mind That D. Whitakers spake nothing but the truth when in his answere to Campian hee auouched Patres in maximis iudic ijs toti sunt nostri in leuioribus varij in minutissimis vestri The Fathers in mayne Controsies are wholly ours in the lesser some ours some yours in the least yours not ours Yea I am of D. Raynolds mind who protesteth that in his opinion Not one of all the Fathers was a Papist especially considering the very essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes Supremacie and the Popes Supremacie is not allowed by any of the Fathers Pa. r Why but you will not deny I am sure That some of your predecessors as for example Luther hath spoken scornfully of the Fathers Are not these his words Nihil curo c. I care not if a thousand Austins a thousand Cyprians a thousand Churches thinke otherwise then I doe Prot. Luther perswading himselfe that the Word of God made for him in a controuersie which hee handled by way of supposall that Austin and Cyprian c. thought otherwise professeth that hauing the Word with him he cared not who they were not how many they were who were against him And do you thinke that therein he spake scornfully of the Fathers What doe you thinke then of him who perswading himselfe that some of your Popes made for him protesteth he would rest more thereon then vpon thousand Austins thousand Ieroms thousand Gregories Ego vt ingenuè â—atcor plus vnt summo pontificicrederem in his qui fidci mysteria tangunt quaÌ„ mille Augustinis Hieronymis Gregorijs saith your Cornelius Mussus in his Commentary vpon the Epistle to the Romanes If it were scornefullnesse in Luther to preferre the Word of God before thousand Austins doth it not much more argue scornfulnesse in Musse to prefer an vsurping most vicious and vnlettered Pope before thousand Austins He was a great Clerke in his time who deliuered this as sound doctrine Simplici potius Rustice infanti Aniculâ— magis quà m Pontifici maximo mille Episcopis credendum est si isti contra Euangelium illi pro Euangelie faciant We ought rather beleeue a plaine country fellow or a child or an old wife then the Pope and a thousand Bishops if the Pope and Bishops speake against the Gospel and the others agreeably to the Gospel To prefer the Word of God before Bishops is not to scorne Bishops Pa. Well shall we then fall to the Fathers and see what they say Prot. Nay stay a little And tell me first what hope there is that either you should perswade me or I perswade you by Fathers seeing the one of vs cannot perswade the other to be of his opinion by the Scripture It is written That they who heare not Moses and the Prophets will not bee perswaded though one rise from the dead againe Which makes me feare that seeing Moses and the Prophets alledged by me cannot perswade you nor the Texts which you alledge out of the same cannot perswade me we shall lose both our labours in examining what the Fathers haue said about the differences betweene vs For if men who heare not Moses and the Prophets will not be perswaded by the dead miraculously raised I cannot thinke they will euer be perswaded by the Fathers Pa. Say you so Prot. Yea truly and I am the more afraid we shall lose our labours in this kind because there is as great question betweene vs about the Fathers as about the Scriptures what the meaning of the Fathers is as vvhat the meaning of the Scriptures is On vvhose side St. Austin and St. Ambrose stands as on whose side St. Paul and St. Peter stands The Fathers Writings are subiect to mistakings as vvell as the Scriptures Arbitror nonnulles in quibusdamlocis librâ—rum meorum opinaturos me sensisse quod non sensi aut non sensisse quod sensi I suppose saith St. Austin that many by reason of some passages in my Bookes will conceiue that my meaning is otherwise then it was or that it vvas not such as it was And it fell out accordingly For as Baronius witnesseth after St. Austins death there arose vp diuers Qui ex eius scriptis male perceptis complures inuexerunt errores quos S. Aug. nomine authoritate defendere conabantur Who mistaking his meaning broached many errors in his name Now I doubt not but you thinke other Fathers Writings are as subiect to mistakings as St. Austins Pa. That I doe Yet proue this point I pray a little more fully Prot. I will and that by examples of ancienter and later times In ancient times one Father mistooke the meaning of another At this time euen one of you conceiues differently of the meaning of the Fathers from others of you some saying This is the meaning others saying not so but this is the meaning Pa. What ancient Father mistooke his fellowes meaning Prot. St. Austin mistooke St. Cyprians for St. Austin thought St. Cyprian had beene of opinion that Hereticks were within the Church which as your men say St. Cyprian did not Pa. Indeed I thinke St. Austin mistooke St. Cyprian foulely for I read in Bellarmine that Cypriani verba nihil tale sonant S. Cyprians words founded nothing that way And in Canus Ego vt quemadmodum sentio loquar non intelligo quid causâ— Augustimo fuerit vt verba Cypriani in eum sensuÌ„ acceperit qui mihi sanè tam apparet à Cypriani mente alienus quam Coelum a terrae natura altenum est sed aliquando bonus dormitat Homerus If I may speake my mind freely I wonder why