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scripture_n book_n church_n tradition_n 5,140 5 9.1021 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A19033 The plea for infants and elder people, concerning their baptisme, or, A processe of the passages between M. Iohn Smyth and Richard Clyfton wherein, first is proved, that the baptising of infants of beleevers, is an ordinance of God, secondly, that the rebaptising of such, as have been formerly baptised in the apostate churches of Christians, is utterly unlawful, also, the reasons and objects to the contrarie, answered : divided into two principal heads, I. Of the first position, concerning the baptising of infants, II. Of the second position, concerning the rebaptising of elder people. Clyfton, Richard, d. 1616. 1610 (1610) STC 5450; ESTC S1572 214,939 244

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bless_v and_o though_o you_o say_v i_o can_v from_o hence_o conclude_v baptism_n yet_o from_o hence_o i_o do_v conclude_v that_o christ_n perform_v that_o action_n to_o infant_n that_o his_o disciple_n do_v afterward_o unto_o such_o as_o be_v baptize_v viz._n lay_v on_o of_o hand_n and_o prayer_n &_o likewise_o i_o can_v conclude_v that_o christ_n admit_v of_o infant_n to_o come_v to_o he_o and_o that_o he_o pray_v for_o they_o and_o “_o he_o pray_v not_o for_o the_o world_n 10._o ●oh_o 17._o 9_o m●r._n 10._o and_o that_o also_o he_o pronounce_v that_o †_o of_o such_o be_v the_o kingdom_n of_o god_n and_o therefore_o whether_o baptism_n can_v be_v deny_v to_o such_o let_v the_o godly_a reader_n judge_n i_o avouch_v constant_o against_o you_o that_o either_o they_o be_v not_o the_o child_n of_o the_o jew_n or_o they_o be_v not_o the_o infant_n of_o believe_a jew_n or_o if_o their_o parent_n believe_v yet_o it_o follow_v not_o tha●_n those_o infant_n be_v of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o god_n or_o to_o be_v baptize_v for_o christ_n do_v not_o say_v of_o these_o but_o of_o such_o be_v the_o kingdom_n of_o god_n although_o you_o do_v so_o constant_o avouch_v against_o i_o yet_o it_o be_v but_o your_o stout_a denial_n without_o any_o reason_n or_o probability_n to_o the_o contrary_n that_o these_o infant_n which_o be_v bring_v to_o christ_n be_v of_o the_o jew_n i_o have_v show_v my_o reason_n before_o but_o not_o believe_v say_v you_o i_o answer_v how_o dare_v you_o deny_v they_o to_o be_v professor_n of_o the_o hart_n we_o be_v no_o judge_n stand_v they_o not_o member_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n and_o be_v they_o not_o so_o long_o to_o be_v account_v for_o believer_n nay_o they_o come_v to_o hear_v christ_n and_o by_o present_v their_o child_n unto_o he_o and_o desire_v he_o to_o pray_v testify_v their_o faith_n in_o he_o and_o 7._o and_o 1_o cor._n 1●_n 7._o charity_n bind_v we_o to_o esteem_v of_o such_o in_o the_o better_a part_n if_o their_o parent_n believe_v yet_o 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more_o ancient_a than_o error_n and_o although_o you_o esteem_v not_o of_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o father_n witness_v against_o you_o yet_o have_v you_o summon_v together_o such_o man_n as_o you_o think_v will_v give_v any_o contenance_n to_o your_o error_n to_o battle_v against_o both_o the_o scripture_n and_o they_o but_o their_o testimony_n do_v little_a pleasure_n you_o as_o shall_v appear_v by_o the_o examination_n of_o the_o particular_n the_o first_o you_o allege_v be_v henr-pantal●on_a 5._o chro._n fol._n 6._o who_o say_v that_o victor_n apher_n anno_o 193._o ordain_v that_o a●_n easter_n it_o shall_v be_v indifferent_o administer_v to_o all_o whereupon_o i_o gather_v that_o before_o his_o time_n only_o such_o as_o be_v catechise_v in_o the_o faith_n be_v baptize_v for_o he_o will_v not_o decree_v that_o heathen_a shall_v be_v baptize_v this_o man_n i_o take_v his_o word_n upon_o your_o report_n do_v mention_v victor_n decree_n for_o the_o time_n of_o administration_n of_o baptism_n to_o all_o young_a and_o old_a viz_o at_o easter_n but_o will_v any_o but_o you_o infer_v hereupon_o that_o baptism_n be_v not_o administer_v before_o this_o time_n to_o infant_n you_o may_v aswell_o say_v that_o before_o that_o time_n it_o be_v not_o administer_v to_o the_o elder_a sort_n for_o he_o speak_v in_o general_a of_o the_o person_n to_o be_v baptize_v victor_n bring_v not_o in_o baptise_v of_o infant_n which_o be_v then_o the_o church_n practice_n but_o prescribe_v a_o certain_a time_n for_o the_o general_a administration_n of_o that_o sacrament_n as_o gelasius_n do_v the_o like_a anno_fw-la 494._o that_o infant_n be_v baptize_v before_o victor_n time_n appear_v by_o that_o ●●bius_fw-la relic_n 〈…〉_o e_o p._n ●_o 96._o ●●bius_fw-la *_o of_o higinius_n who_o decree_v that_o child_n which_o be_v to_o be_v baptize_v shall_v have_v a_o godfather_n and_o a_o godmother_n anno_fw-la 143._o higinius_n live_v before_o victor_n about_o 50._o year_n your_o next_o eusebius_n hist_o lib._n 7._o cap._n 8._o say_v that_o novatus_n reject_v the_o holy_a baptism_n and_o overthrow_v the_o faith_n and_o confession_n which_o be_v accustom_v before_o baptism_n whereby_o it_o appear_v that_o faith_n and_o confession_n be_v require_v before_o baptism_n and_o therefore_o the_o rudiment_n thereof_o still_o remain_v that_o in_o the_o baptise_n of_o infant_n a_o confession_n of_o sin_n and_o faith_n be_v require_v of_o the_o surety_n or_o parent_n that_o confession_n be_v require_v before_o the_o baptise_n of_o man_n grow_v to_o year_n and_o new_o come_v to_o the_o faith_n be_v not_o deny_v and_o more_o than_o this_o can_v not_o be_v gather_v from_o eusebius_n word_n as_o you_o set_v they_o down_o but_o what_o be_v this_o against_o the_o baptise_n of_o infant_n howbeit_o i_o find_v not_o this_o of_o novatus_n in_o lib._n 7._o chap._n 8._o but_o in_o that_o chapter_n mention_n be_v make_v of_o a_o certain_a faithful_a brother_n that_o be_v present_a when_o some_o be_v baptize_v and_o hear_v what_o be_v demand_v and_o what_o be_v answer_v weep_v etc._n etc._n begin_v to_o confess_v that_o he_o have_v otherwise_o receive_v baptism_n of_o heretic_n etc._n etc._n now_o if_o he_o be_v baptize_v of_o heretic_n without_o confession_n of_o his_o faith_n it_o be_v contrary_a to_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n &_o of_o the_o apostle_n concern_v such_o as_o come_v new_o to_o the_o faith_n eusebius_n ecclesiastical_a hiss_v lib._n 6._o c._n 33._o thus_o write_v of_o no●atus_n that_o ●e_v be_v vex_v with_o a_o unclean_a spirit_n in_o his_o youth_n and_o have_v spend_v s●me_v 〈◊〉_d with_o exorcist_n fall_v into_o a_o great_a sickness_n and_o lie_v in_o his_o bed_n for_o necessity_n he_o be_v baptize_v neither_o any_o of_o those_o thing_n which_o be_v accustom_v to_o follow_v baptism_n w●re_v so_o 〈…〉_o n_o fulfil_v etc._n etc._n as_o for_o the_o rudiment_n of_o this_o confession_n which_o you_o say_v still_o remain_v thereunto_o i_o answer_v that_o this_o practice_n be_v a_o kind_n of_o imitation_n of_o that_o which_o be_v observe_v in_o former_a time_n towards_o they_o of_o year_n and_o it_o may_v be_v that_o the_o parent_n which_o bring_v their_o childten_n to_o be_v baptize_v do_v make_v some_o short_a confession_n of_o their_o faith_n for_o of_o confess_v of_o sin_v be_v no_o step_n remain_v that_o i_o know_v only_o a_o promise_n to_o forsake_v sin_n which_o after_o do_v grow_v as_o other_o thing_n into_o corruption_n again_o you_o allege_v eusebius_n lib._n 10._o cap._n 15._o report_v a_o story_n of_o one_o that_o do_v baptise_v child_n in_o sport_n and_o that_o alexander_n bishop_n of_o alexandria_n though_o d●ne_n in_o sport_n yet_o find_v that_o the_o child_n have_v question_v and_o answer_v according_a to_o the_o manner_n of_o the_o catechumeni_fw-la in_o baptism_n do_v approve_v it_o whereby_o it_o appear_v that_o then_o only_a person_n by_o confession_n of_o their_o faith_n and_o sin_n be_v admit_v to_o baptism_n in_o alexandria_n this_o story_n i_o do_v not_o find_v in_o that_o chapter_n before_o quote_v but_o such_o a_o like_a in_o chap._n 14._o yet_o both_o your_o write_a copy_n and_o print_a book_n appoint_v to_o cha_n 15_o if_o you_o mean_v that_o of_o athanasius_n baptise_v of_o certain_a catechumeni_fw-la lib._n 10._o c._n 14._o i_o answer_v that_o those_o child_n so_o baptize_v seem_v not_o to_o be_v any_o child_n of_o the_o church_n but_o some_o of_o the_o heathen_a which_o with_o their_o parent_n be_v instruct_v in_o the_o faith_n but_o not_o yet_o in_o communion_n or_o baptise_a again_o in_o that_o they_o be_v thus_o baptize_v be_v by_o the_o bishop_n deliver_v to_o his_o church_n to_o nutrien●●_n athanasy_n vero_fw-la at●_n eos_fw-la etc._n etc._n ●_o vocatis_fw-la p●_n rentibus_fw-la s●_n dei_fw-la obte●tione_fw-la trad●_n ecclesiae_fw-la su●_n nutrien●●_n to_o be_v borough_n up_o their_o parent_n thereto_o consent_v which_o consent_n the_o bishop_n need_v not_o to_o have_v require_v or_o so_o commit_v those_o child_n to_o be_v educate_v if_o they_o and_o their_o parent_n have_v be_v already_o of_o the_o church_n for_o to_o they_o then_o have_v this_o care_n apperteyn_v beside_o if_o none_o but_o the_o elder_a sort_n have_v be_v baptize_v which_o by_o that_o which_o be_v here_o object_v be_v not_o prove_v yet_o be_v this_o but_o the_o practice_n of_o one_o particular_a church_n which_o may_v be_v taint_v with_o that_o error_n about_o baptise_v of_o infant_n as_o tertullian_n and_o some_o other_o be_v in_o those_o time_n next_o you_o allege_v hoseus_n petricov_n confess_v de_fw-fr fide_fw-la cap._n 27._o saying_n that_o these_o 2._o apostolical_a tradition_n which_o the_o scripture_n teach_v not_o viz_o that_o there_o be_v 3._o person_n and_o one_o god_n and_o that_o dionysius_n &_o origin_n do_v testify_v baptism_n of_o infant_n to_o be_v a_o apostolical_a tradition_n now_o you_o know_v their_o apost_n tradition_n be_v antichristian_a invention_n this_o witness_n will_v do_v you_o little_a pleasure_n for_o as_o he_o call_v the_o baptise_v of_o infant_n a_o tradition_n so_o do_v he_o the_o trinity_n which_o the_o scripture_n do_v manifest_o teach_v in_o sundry_a place_n now_o if_o you_o accept_v not_o his_o testimony_n in_o call_v the_o trinity_n a_o tradition_n why_o do_v you_o produce_v he_o against_o baptise_v of_o infant_n beside_o though_o this_o man_n be_v a_o papist_n yet_o be_v his_o witness_n with_o we_o for_o call_v the_o baptism_n of_o infant_n a_o apostolical_a tradition_n he_o mean_v as_o the_o papist_n do_v such_o doctrine_n of_o the_o apostle_n as_o be_v not_o write_v which_o they_o hold_v equal_a with_o the_o scripture_n again_o this_o he_o say_v be_v so_o call_v by_o dionysius_n and_o origen_n who_o understand_v thereby_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o apostle_n and_o those_o apostolical_a tradition_n whereof_o you_o dream_v be_v not_o in_o their_o time_n in_o esse_fw-la polydore_v virgil_n you_o bring_v in_o also_o to_o testify_v that_o it_o be_v the_o use_n with_o the_o ancient_n that_o person_n of_o year_n sere_a in_o a_o manner_n shall_v be_v baptize_v clad_v with_o white_a garment_n etc._n etc._n and_o this_o be_v perform_v at_o easter_n and_o whitsuntide_n etc._n etc._n this_o witness_n tell_v we_o that_o it_o be_v in_o use_n with_o the_o ancient_n not_o only_o to_o baptise_v the_o elder_a sort_n that_o turn_v to_o the_o faith_n but_o appoint_v the_o n●_n to_o be_v clad_v in_o white_a &_o that_o they_o be_v instruct_v until_o easter_n th●ir_a time_n appoint_v for_o baptism_n &_o these_o it_o seem_v be_v the_o catechumeni_fw-la for_o in_o those_o former_a time_n many_o have_v not_o embrace_v the_o faith_n now_o this_o author_n say_v not_o that_o child_n bear_v in_o the_o church_n be_v keep_v unbaptise_v until_o they_o can_v make_v profession_n of_o their_o own_o faith_n whereof_o our_o dispute_n be_v the_o word_n of_o
as_o for_o the_o spiritual_a genealogy_n both_o under_o the_o law_n and_o the_o gospel_n i_o do_v approve_v to_o be_v the_o true_a seed_n of_o abraham_n but_o not_o in_o your_o sense_n that_o exclude_v the_o infant_n of_o the_o faithful_a from_o the_o covenant_n which_o of_o we_o be_v to_o be_v 3._o be_v mat._n ●_o act._n 3._o account_v the_o child_n thereof_o as_o well_o as_o these_o that_o outward_o profess_v their_o faith_n and_o concern_v the_o ministry_n of_o the_o old_a church_n although_o none_o can_v be_v priest_n 28._o priest_n exo._n 28._o but_o of_o the_o line_n of_o aaron_n yet_o be_v the_o 8●_a the_o num._n 6-19_a d●_n 33._o 8●_a tribe_n of_o levi_n choose_v by_o god_n himself_o for_o that_o office_n and_o god_n *_o sanctify_a they_o to_o the_o service_n of_o his_o name_n and_o to_o the_o ministry_n of_o holy_a thing_n last_o you_o charge_v we_o with_o a_o introduce_v of_o a_o carnal_a line_n into_o the_o church_n to_o be_v baptize_v &_o by_o succession_n fetch_v baptism_n upon_o the_o carnal_a line_n through_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n etc._n etc._n 13._o “_o numb_a 19_o 1_o cor._n ●_o 13._o of_o this_o i_o have_v speak_v before_o and_o i_o answer_v further_o 1._o that_o we_o do_v not_o introduce_v any_o other_o carnal_a line_n into_o the_o church_n to_o be_v baptize_v than_o the_o lord_n himself_o introduce_v that_o be_v the_o child_n of_o the_o faithful_a and_o this_o be_v not_o as_o you_o say_v to_o set_v up_o judaisme_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n see_v all_o the_o people_n of_o god_n of_o all_o nation_n and_o age_n be_v bind_v unto_o it_o for_o we_o know_v no_o other_o covenant_n by_o which_o we_o become_v the_o people_n &_o church_n of_o god_n but_o that_o same_o which_o be_v make_v with_o abraham_n and_o his_o seed_n concern_v the_o carnal_a line_n as_o you_o call_v it_o though_o in_o respect_n of_o we_o it_o may_v seem_v to_o stop_v in_o apostasy_n yet_o the_o lord_n continue_v his_o promise_n to_o his_o elect_a therein_o neither_o by_o this_o our_o retain_v of_o baptism_n do_v we_o justify_v rome_n to_o be_v a_o true_a church_n nor_o make_v ourselves_o schismatic_n see_v we_o cast_v of_o her_o adultery_n and_o keep_v that_o which_o be_v christ_n ordinance_n by_o her_o pollute_a also_o you_o charge_v we_o to_o be_v fall_v from_o christ_n and_o become_v a_o new_a second_o image_n of_o the_o beast_n never_o hear_v of_o before_o in_o the_o world_n for_o be_v fall_v from_o christ_n look_v that_o it_o be_v not_o your_o own_o case_n of_o the_o image_n of_o the_o beast_n i_o †_o read_v but_o not_o of_o a_o 9_o ●ev_n 13._o ●_o 15._o &_o ●_o 9_o new_a second_o image_n and_o therefore_o not_o marvel_v though_o it_o be_v never_o hear_v of_o in_o the_o world_n as_o you_o say_v and_o if_o it_o have_v be_v by_o you_o unspeak_a of_o also_o by_o so_o apply_v of_o it_o unto_o we_o your_o sin_n have_v be_v the_o less_o and_o thus_o much_o in_o answer_n to_o your_o premise_a ground_n next_o you_o set_v down_o the_o sum_n of_o my_o exception_n first_o i_o say_v that_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v as_o sufficient_a for_o the_o direction_n of_o all_o the_o affair_n ●l_n ●l_n and_o occasion_n that_o befall_v in_o our_o time_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n as_o the_o old_a testament_n be_v for_o the_o occurrent_n that_o befall_v under_o the_o old_a testament_n see_v christ_n be_v as_o faithful_a as_o moses_n and_o the_o new_a testament_n as_o perfect_a as_o the_o old_a gal._n 3._o 15._o and_o therefore_o if_o the_o lord_n have_v intend_v to_o put_v a_o difference_n betwixt_o the_o apostalike_a constitute_v of_o church_n and_o our_o constitute_v of_o they_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o person_n to_o be_v admit_v into_o the_o church_n and_o in_o respect_n of_o baptise_v and_o not_o baptise_v or_o rebaptise_v of_o they_o he_o can_v &_o will_v have_v do_v it_o etc._n etc._n the_o sufficiency_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n we_o acknowledge_v &_o of_o the_o book_n answ_n answ_n thereof_o for_o that_o use_n wherefore_o they_o be_v write_v but_o it_o seem_v that_o you_o confound_v the_o new_a testament_n or_o covenant_n of_o grace_n with_o the_o book_n thereof_o for_o you_o reason_n thus_o that_o the_o new_a testament_n mean_v the_o book_n thereof_o be_v sufficient_a for_o direction_n of_o all_o affair_n of_o the_o church_n and_o your_o proof_n out_o of_o gal._n 3._o 15._o be_v of_o the_o covenant_n itself_o and_o not_o of_o the_o book_n thereof_o and_o afterward_o you_o allege_v as_o a_o reason_n for_o the_o same_o end_n that_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v perfect_a and_o seal_v with_o the_o blood_n of_o christ_n thus_o deceive_v the_o reader_n with_o a_o homonomy_n of_o the_o word_n testament_n the_o book_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v all_o unwritten_a when_o christ_n suffer_v and_o have_v seal_v the_o covenant_n of_o grace_n this_o testament_n have_v be_v perfect_a if_o there_o have_v be_v never_o a_o book_n write_v the_o history_n of_o the_o gospel_n be_v write_v 26._o write_v joh._n 20._o 31_o rom._n 1._o 1._o 2._o &_o 16._o 25._o 26._o that_o we_o may_v believe_v that_o jesus_n be_v the_o christ_n promise_v and_o foretell_v in_o the_o holy_a scripture_n of_o the_o prophet_n and_o that_o believe_a in_o he_o we_o may_v have_v eternal_a life_n concern_v the_o faythfulnes_n of_o christ_n it_o consist_v in_o 29._o in_o luk._n 1._o 70_o &_o 24._o 27._o ●_o pet._n 1._o 10._o ●1_n 12._o act._n 26._o 22._o &_o 13._o 29._o fulfil_v of_o those_o thing_n which_o moses_n and_o the_o prophet_n have_v say_v shall_v come_v to_o pass_v and_o if_o he_o give_v we_o direction_n for_o all_o the_o affair_n and_o occasion_n that_o fall_v out_o in_o our_o time_n either_o out_o of_o the_o book_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n or_o old_a we_o ought_v to_o be_v thankful_a to_o god_n and_o according_o to_o use_v they_o and_o not_o bind_v he_o or_o ourselves_o only_o to_o the_o writing_n of_o the_o apostle_n see_v christ_n be_v the_o author_n as_o well_o of_o the_o doctrine_n &_o writing_n of_o the_o prophet_n as_o of_o the_o apostle_n 2_o tim._n 3._o 16_o 17._o 1_o pet._n 3._o 18._o 19_o again_o concern_v the_o difference_n between_o the_o apostolic_a constitute_v of_o church_n and_o we_o which_o you_o charge_v we_o with_o i_o answer_v we_o plead_v for_o no_o difference_n neither_o do_v we_o practice_v contrary_a to_o the_o first_o plant_n of_o the_o church_n witness_n mr._n smyth_n difference_n in_o the_o preface_n lin_v 12._o ●_o ●ns_n ●_o for_o as_o then_o such_o as_o be_v to_o be_v receive_v into_o the_o church_n do_v confess_v their_o faith_n and_o so_o with_o their_o family_n be_v baptize_v so_o we_o hold_v that_o all_o such_o that_o be_v unbaptise_v and_o to_o be_v add_v to_o the_o church_n must_v enter_v thereinto_o they_o with_o their_o family_n after_o the_o same_o manner_n as_o in_o the_o apostle_n time_n and_o we_o do_v acknowledge_v that_o all_o church_n which_o have_v apostate_v be_v to_o be_v reform_v according_a to_o the_o pattern_n and_o platform_n lay_v down_o by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n in_o the_o scripture_n but_o this_o difference_n we_o put_v between_o person_n that_o be_v never_o baptize_v and_o such_o as_o have_v receive_v baptism_n in_o a_o apostate_n church_n affirm_v that_o the_o former_a be_v to_o be_v adjoin_v to_o the_o church_n by_o baptism_n the_o latter_a not_o to_o be_v again_o baptize_v which_o if_o it_o have_v be_v necessary_a the_o lord_n no_o doubt_n will_v have_v command_v when_o he_o bid_v his_o people_n to_o go_v out_o of_o babylon_n but_o see_v he_o say_v not_o a_o word_n of_o the_o renew_v thereof_o we_o be_v to_o content_v ourselves_o and_o to_o practice_v as_o the_o holy_a ghost_n 13._o ghost_n 2_o chr._n ●_o 5._o 13._o else_o where_o do_v teach_v we_o by_o the_o example_n of_o the_o israelite_n in_o a_o other_o like_o case_n now_o if_o you_o can_v show_v we_o either_o commandment_n or_o example_n or_o any_o good_a reason_n in_o all_o the_o new_a testament_n to_o rebaptise_v they_o which_o have_v be_v baptize_v in_o apostate_n church_n we_o will_v receive_v it_o and_o practice_v it_o if_o not_o why_o do_v you_o plead_v for_o it_o &_o without_o warrant_n do_v rebaptise_v yourselves_o &_o also_o affirm_v so_o confident_o that_o all_o thing_n be_v so_o manifest_a in_o the_o apostle_n writing_n that_o upon_o every_o occasion_n that_o fall_v out_o in_o our_o time_n we_o have_v direction_n for_o it_o last_o it_o be_v not_o we_o that_o add_v to_o this_o new_a testament_n as_o you_o charge_v we_o or_o that_o bring_v in_o a_o new_a christ_n a_o new_a church_n a_o new_a covenant_n a_o new_a gospel_n and_o a_o new_a baptism_n but_o you_o yourselves_o be_v guilty_a of_o this_o sin_n for_o you_o by_o