of such an Apostle so by litle and litle it grew froÌ„ one countrie to an other vntill it was spredd ouer the whole Christian world So that some countries had not the new Testament complete that is all the bookes of it for a long time Wherefore no wonder that some haue doubted of seuerall parts thereof being not able to auerre as not assured by reason of some accident that such bookes were truly the workes of such an Apostle or Disciple which not withstaÌ„ding Why the canon of scripture is cheefely to be had from Rome better intelligeÌ„ce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for scripture And here you may note by the way that the Roman church is that church to which in reason wee ought to giue most credit touching the canon of the scripture For Rome being at that time â—that is at least for the first 300 yeares to the Christian world or rather to all the Christians dispersed in diuers parts of the world as London is to England And that wee see the collection of things estimable dispersed in seuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome is sooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie it must needes follow that the collection of the Holy scripture or new Testament was more exactly faisable at Rome then at anie other place But this by the way For my ayme is to make you iudge whether anie one substantiall point The state of the questioÌ„ which the Apostles whith common conseÌ„t preached through the whole world compared to anie one booke of the new Testament which soeuer you thinke first or best receiued whether I say of these two haue descended vnto vs with more certaintie the one to be the Apostles doctrine the other to be such an Apostle's booke Nephew I should distinguish your question for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apostle him selfe deliuered it both in word and writing or to the whole church And I confesse that in respect of the whole church that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached must needes haue more certaintie but where both are equaly deliuered by the same Apostle to the same church I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie theÌ„ the word For t' is an easie matter to let slipp a word some times Whereas writing requireth a more setled consideration Vncle. If the question be but of a particular church or Prouince I doubt it will not be sufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other vnlesse we add more circumstances then we haue declared And the reason is because one Prouince maye haue had Religion so ruinated in it by the incursion of infidells that recouering theÌ„ selues after a long time they may as well mistake one booke for an other as one doctrine for an other and so this point is not much to our pourpose Although euen in this case the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath these aduantages That it is deliuered to manie the booke to few or in some one place The doctrine heard and vnderstood by manie the booke only to such as can reade nor to all them nether but to such as are carefull The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude the doctrine gouernes their whole liues The booke brought often times by some one maÌ„ as some messeÌ„ger if it be an Epistl or other wise sent from some other place or froÌ„ some one person as from Titus of Timotheus to whom it was first written and vpon whose authoritie only the whole veritie must originally rely But to returne to our case Doe you not see that the whole church trusteth some one particular man at the first vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is such an Apostles worke that is scripture But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpoÌ„ the vniuersall knowledge of theÌ„ who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world So that as I doe not intende to say the one is certaine the other not for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in some circonstances yet I must needes say that betwixt these two certainties there is such a differeÌ„ce that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude that this booke is scripture because it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached then that this doctrine is the Apostle's because it is conformable to this booke For if it be true that the whole church once relyed vpon some one particular church for this veritie it can neuer come to passe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time And consequently the same comparison which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuersall church the same I say is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke 's being scripture and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apostolike And for the inconuenience you were jealous of it falleth out quitt contrarie For whether we considere the inspiration and assistance of the holy ghost or the industrie aed carefullnesse of man you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at then the meanes to compasse the end and likewise amongst diuers meanes the most immediate to the end is still most aymed at wherefore in our case the end both of writing and speaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people no doubt I say but that both the AssistaÌ„ce of the holy ghost and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance in which only there might be a slipp as you immagine Wherefore sithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apostles spoke but meerely what belong's to ChristiaÌ„ doctrine which was principally deliuered and the cheefe errand of the Apostles and that in the scriptute manie things are written vpon occasion and as it were by the bye no doubt but in both these respects to wit of the assistance of the holy ghost and of the care of man the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth theÌ„ of the holy writt Besides the slipps you speake of are when things are only once deliuered or spoken without great premeditation whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on so as there can be no feare of such slipping HoW the old Testament came to Christians hands For the ould TestameÌ„t as I confesse t' is possible that the Apostles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached so likewise I thinke t' is euident that they neuer did it being that the church hath no such memorie And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by some and the Iewish Canon alleadged whereof there had beene no vse nor neede if the
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
it but by the scripture which we doe not hold to be sufficient to determrne controuersies without tradition So that I haue no more to saye to you but wish you may begine this new yeare with a good night's rest which God send vs both Whether scripture alone is fit and able to decide controuersies in Religion THis Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. The Preface or introduction 2. That tradition for scripture is not of as great force as for pointes of Doctrine 3. That tradition for scripture is not more vniuersall then tradition for doctrine 4. That it is impossible the text of scripture should haue remained incorrupted 5. What vncertaintie the errors of writers and copists hath bredd in scriptures 6. What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations hath bredd in scripture 7. That the verie repeating and reciting of an others words breedeth a varietie and vncertaintie 8. The vncertaintie of EquiuocatioÌ„ which of necessitie is incident in all writings 9. That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceased 10. The vncertaintie which followeth the particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was vritten 11. That the nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting for deciding of controuersies 12. Two manners of iudging of Religion out of scripture 13. How scripture doth determine controuersies 14. what laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture 15. Of an other manner of disputing out of scripture §. 1 The Introduction VNCLE How now cozen what make's you so early this morning could you not sleepe this last night Nephew Yes indifferent well I thanke God but t' is not verie early Howsoeuer if I be trublesome I will expect your better leasure for I am come only to tell you a scrupule that I had yesternight which hath tormeÌ„ted me euer since And it is that we Catholikes who beare so great reuerence and veneration to the holy scripture receiue more of it then others write infinite volumes of commentaries vpon it as Paul's church yard can witnesse and are so exact to improue our selues I meane our learned men in the knowledge of it should neuerthelesse when wee come to ioyne in the maine point that is to the decision of controuersies in Religion seeme to fly of and recurre to other iudges though we acknowledge it to be Christ owne word and law And now I haue tould you my difficultie I will leaue you to your better imployments knowing how much you esteeme and how precious you accompt your mornings and therefore I will make bould to call for your answere an other time Vncle. Nay stay cozen God forbid I should thinke I could better imploy my time then in giuing you satisfaction in question of such importance or that you should be importune vnto me by desiring the knowledge of a thing so necessarie and so be seeming you I were to blame if I would not leaue euen my prayers to assist you in this point and perhaps an other time you will not be so earnest on it Although I must coÌ„fesse I am some what vnwilling to diue into this questioÌ„ for I see by experieÌ„ce that the one part seeketh by all meanes to destroy the authoritie of God's church and the other seemeth to lessen the power of scripture for the deciding of controuersies so that indifferent men and as yet vnsetled be left as it were without all meanes of coming to the truth How soeuer necessitie excuseth vs for were our Aduersaries able to performe what they promise that is to resolue pointes of controuersies by scripture we were worse theÌ„ beasts if we should refuse to be iudged thereby But if to stand to scripture only as they doe be but a plausible way to Atheisme and so the question will only be whether we must rely vpon a church or be Athiests for we thinke by scripture alone lefâ—t without the guard of the church nothing or at least not enough for the saluation of mankinde can be sufficiently prouued then euerie man wil see that we are forced by reasoÌ„ and Religion to make euident and knowne as farr as we caÌ„ the necessitie of relying vpon a church and to vse all our power to persuade men therevnto And if you remember we said yesternight that Christian Religion or the law of Iesus Christ cannot be learned by witt and studie but by authoritie and by receiuing it from Iesus Christ And that wee said likewise that he is no true Christian nor truly of the communitie of Christians what so euer be his materiall beliefe who doth not accept of that rule and meanes which Iesus Christ hath left and ordained for the receipt of his law and the like of him who should follow anie other rule which must needes be ether scripture or tradition or both it will therefore euiâ—â—ntly follow that ether we must be no Christians or accept and acknowledge tradition to be this rule if wee can shew that the scripture is not fitt nor hath the conditions requisite for the deciding of controuersies nor was made or left to the church for this end Nephew The greater is the necessitie of this question the more gladd am I that I haue moued it though me thinke's I my self might well see it is not fitt to make the scripture iudge of coÌ„trouersies because we finde by experience that after so manie disputations and so manie bookes written on ether side there is nothing resolued nor are we the nearer an end and therefore t' is euident that scripture alone will neuer decide and determine our quarells and disputes Vncle. Well cozen since you will haue it so our first question shall bee §. 2 Whether tradition for scripture be of as great force as it is for pointes of doctrine ANd first I pray you tell mee doe you thinke that the Apostles when they weÌ„t about the world to preach Christ Iesus carried with theÌ„ all the bookes of the ould and new Testament ether readie translated into the languages of the people whom they preached vnto or else caused them to be translated by the first Christians Nephew I neuer thought of this question before but I see well enough that they could not carie all with them for some parts certainely were not made before they went to to preach nay I a'm not assured whether anie part of the new testament was made before their dispersion from Hierusalem so that well may they haue caried the ould Testament with theÌ„ if they thought it sitting but for the new they could not if I be not mistakeÌ„ Vncle. It is verie true I will tell you therefore cozen how the authoritie of the scripture that is Now the neW Testament Was pro aga ted of the new Testament came into the church An Apostle or Disciple writing a booke or Epistle coÌ„municated it to that church or Countrie wherein he preached or to which he writte it that church coÌ„municated it to their neighbours as the worke
this booke there is nothing contrarie or preiudiciall therevnto which no profession that relyeth only vpon scripture can doe because they must first be assured of the text before they can iudge of the doctrine wherefore if the text itselfe neede a iudge and that it is questionable whether this be the true text or no they must needes be at their witts end according to the principles of raison Let vs therefore see what ambiguitie or question falleth vpon the text it selfe by the succession of so manie ages in which it must needes haue beene in some sorte conserued to come to our hands There be three wayes cheefely whereby the text may haue beene corrupted Three Waies haue corruptions come into the Text. The first on sett pourpose as the fathers accuse the Heretickes of their times to haue done and the Iewes also are suspected of the same And this kinde though it extendeth it selfe but to few corruptions yet they come to be ineuitable wheÌ„ amoÌ„gst soe manie copies none can discerne which haue beene so abused which not and as it is but in few pointes or places so it is in such as bee important and materiall ones The second sort of corruptioÌ„s may haue come by the negligence of seruants which copied the Bible some being mercenarie people that made copies to sell others wittlesse people who greedie and desirous to haue the Bible out of vanitie hypocrisie or the like cared not for more then to saie they had it and a great part of these copists may haue erred in writing the Bible by the verie defect of nature which permitteth not an absolut exactnesse in anie thing and causeth a man in his wearinesse nay and in his too much warinesse also to make escapes vnwittingly which be the more dangerous by how much the copies seeme more exact whereby some times the beare downe true copies The third waye of corruption may haue beene by halfe-witted men who will now and then vndertake to correct copies by ayme and vnderstaÌ„ding who for hauing lighted right in some one place will venter confidently to spoile tenne And of these men t' is like before printing began and copies were not so frequent and so a corruption went not farr t' is like I say there hath beene diuers who wheÌ„ they mett with a place they could not make sense of and saw that a litle change would make it sense such rash their would easily vener to make such a smale as they thought mutation not knowing peradueÌ„ture how to come to a better copie then their owne The Hebrew and Greeke Testament haue beene verie subiect to the first sorte of these corruptions the former being deliuered vnto vs by the professed enimies of Christ who as it is reported in the greatest heat of their hatred to Christianitie sate at Tiberias to determine all the vowels of the ould scripture the which euerie Hebritian knoweth what power it gaue them to change the whole text and this to men publickely accused of forgerie in that kinde The Greeke as long as the coÌ„demned Heretickes held so great power in those parts 〈◊〉 is publickely knowne they did for some ages was in litle lesse jeopardie they being also taxed with the like impietie But the other two wayes and meanes of corruptions are common to all and in deede vnauoidable in so great a multitude of copies as were in all the three languages at least of Greeke and latin And now cozen can you tell mee what hazard this must needes breede in the text it selfe that is What vncertaintie the errours §. 5 of writers and copists hath bredd in scripture NEPHEW Nay mary that posseth my vnderstanding for if I should calculate so manie copies to haue beene mâ—de and then estimate what errours may haue escaped in euerie copie the number peraduenture would exceede the words of the Bible For let vs take a boke of 2000. columnes and let vs likewise suppose which is verie likely that as manie copies were made in some age of an hundreth yeare and let vs then put 56. lines to a columne and 6. words to a line and so there will be in one columne 336. Words And farther may wee not well suppose that there was as manie faults escaped in euerie copie one with an other as there bee words in a columne which being supposed you will finde that the number of all the errours escaped in all the copies which haue beene made since the Apostles time will amouÌ„te to 15. or 16. times as manie as there bee words in the Bible Wherefore by this accompte it would be 15. or 16. to one of anie particular place that it were not the true text Which me thinkes cannot be true Vncle. I doe not thinke that you haue taken your proportions too high for if you looke into the most part euen of printed bookes of such a great volume as the Bible is revewe them well and you will finde a whole columne of errata in euerie one and you know printing is donne with more ease and lesse toile to the braine and hath ordinarily 2. or 3. corrections before it be drawne which helps written copies haue not But yet I must tell you that you missed it in one thing you marked not that the errours of so manie copies may haue beene the same in diuers of them otherwise truly your calculation would proue that wee migh looke for scripture in scripture and not finde it and the like with some proportioÌ„ in all bookes I saie with some proportion for to thinke alltogether the like of Cicero Demostenes and others is not reasonable because there were few copies made of them as only for some curious and learned men whereas the Bible concerned euerie man so nearely that few would be with out it that could vnderstand Lattin And yet I doubt not but you remember well inough since you were a student what varietie of texts and pretentions of corruptioÌ„s you found amongst the Critikes and commentaries euen of those prophane authours And to your calculation I will add an other suppose there were as manie written copies extant as the number of your columnes and as much varietie in those which haue not beene examined as in those which haue beene looked into And farther that Sixtus Quintus for the setting out of his Bible caused only an hundred to be examined And that in his Bible the corrections amounte as it is knowne they doe to the nuÌ„ber of two thousand doe you not see that the computation made of the various sections of all those copies would make twentie for euerie coluÌ„ne And truly wee caÌ„not imagine that there hath beene so for ether Latin or Greeke copies And whereas in this computation wee only esteeme them to haue beene but 2000. suppose as it is verie like that there hath beene at least an hundreth thousand in ether language in so manie ages and in so great an extent of readers And those which are not Extant Whereof none in particular can be
reiected make the case more ambiguous becaus they giue meÌ„ power out or such or such a probabilitie to coniecture a truth and out of coniecturall proofe to belieue it For as we all confesse that what soeuer is certainely knowne to be scripture is not to be touched so we know likewise that what soeuer may be doubted of whether it be scripture or no obligeth to no such respect Wherefore if reason conclude and tell vs that in all likelyhood there hath beene twenty variae lectiones in euerie particular columne though perhapps two or three only are extant the rest probably knowne to haue beene yet so as that there is no certaine signe of which or where they were And now there cometh one to presse a place in this or that columne which his opponent thinketh to be contrarie to other places may he not then iustly saiâ—â— sir I mistrust this place to be corrupted Or can his Aduersarie in prudence vrge it on as an assured text Or can he presse and auerre for certaine that this is none of the 17. vnknowne variae lectiones Certes he cannot abstracting from all warrant and commande of the church and standing to pure and precise reason So that all controuersies would be ended where nothing but scripture is admitted as iudge with a Non liquet Nephew I expected you should haue shewed me how hard it is to agree about the true sense of the words of the scripture but as I now perceiue there is as much difficultie to know whether we haue the true and right text or no which if it were well conceâ—â—â—d and vnderstood by our deuout and pure citizen's Wifes of London who turne and vew the text so curiously wheÌ„ the preacher citeth it I belieue it would much coole the zeale of their spirit if such a qualme should come ouer their stomackes as to thinke these words peraduenture are not the Holy scripture But to this vncle may you not add the varietie of translations I pray tell me §. 6 What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations haue bread in scripture VNcle No doubt cozen but great vncertaintie is sprung from the varietie of translations Whereof we may first suppose that there is no constat of anie infalibilitie in the translatours no not of the septuaginta them selues what of the septuaginta translation which the Protestants will easily graÌ„t I know there is a storie how that the septuagiÌ„ta being seperated one froÌ„ an other their traÌ„slatioÌ„ light to be the same word for word Which if it were certaine I should esteeme their traÌ„slation of as great authoritie as the originall text it self But we see that eueÌ„ in the Apostles time some sought to mende their interpretation as Theodotion and Aquila whose translations were neuerthelesse accepted of by the church and conserued and esteemed Wherefore there is no likelyhood that the Apostles and the church of their times held the septuaginta traÌ„latioÌ„ to be specially froÌ„ the holy ghost Not doth it import that the Apostles some times vsed in their speeches or writings this translation for they must needes vse it or none wheÌ„ they wrote to those whose language was Greeke and therefore would haue thought them to haue mistaken the text if they had cited the scripture's words according to the Hebrew When the Hebrew was differeÌ„t from the Greeke Nor can wee certainely tell that is was alwayes the Apostle that vsed it and not the Historian Who writing in Greeke and to Grecians cited the Greeke words what words soeuer the Apostle had vsed being both to the same effect The next point which we may considere in this varietie of translations is why diuers traÌ„slations in the same tongue that neuer anie begane a new version in the same language but for some mislike in the former For if he thought a new traÌ„slation to be necessarie he must needes conceiue that the former traÌ„slator had in manie and important pointes missed and altered the minde of the author Whereby euerie wisman will see that a booke of importaÌ„ce is neuer left of to be translated vntill there be some inhibition to the contrrrie And hence we may conclude that it is impossible for a translator to be so exact as that his words shall be taken for the words of the author Nay contrariewise it is the law of a good translator not to yeild word for word with the verie originall but to expresse the seÌ„se thereof in the best manner he can For since no two laÌ„guages jumpe equaly in their expressions it is impossible that euerie word of the one should haue a full expression of euerie word of the other much lesse that their phrases should be the same so that per force there must needes be a great differeÌ„ce in particulars although the substance of the sense and meaning be the same And who should conferre anie one chapter of two translations in the same language and see whether anie one senteÌ„ce doe so exactly agree as that scanning rigorously the varietie of their words there may not be some different sence gathered out of them And he will not denie but t' is impossible to put fully and beyond all quarell the same sense in diuers words And truly I thinke that euerie one wil admit at least as much difference and varietie betwixt the originall and the translation as betwixt translation and translation these agreeing in the same tongue those not and yet hauing all the other reasons of disagreeing And doe you not thinke cozen that if one should take twentie of the best schollers in a schoole and giue them an author to translate ether out of latin into English or out of English into latin that their translations would so differ in manie sentences as that diuers senses might be easily gathered out of them And iudge there vpon that when witts are sett contentiously to discusse euerie possible varietie what truth can be conuinced where anie two may disagree though both acknowledge the author An other considerable circuÌ„stance is that amoÌ„gst all antient translations none can be reiected because it may euer be supposed that the reasoÌ„ of this varietie may proceede from a various copie out of which they were translated and by reason we cannot disapproue the copie as wee said before we cannot therefore likewise nether iustly nor certainely refuse the translation hauing nothing to grounde such refusall but coniectures and likelyhoods which be verie imperfect And if we come to calculate we may verie well suppose that there are now some twenty translations made into seuerall laÌ„guages I might put more for there hath beene peraduenture 200 latin translations considering the greatnesse of the Roman Empire for so manie Ages and the esteeme of the booke making euerie man desirous to haue an exact text none being as yet euer acknowledged for such nor anie prohibition of translating scripture Which varietie of latin translations the Protestants them selues acknowledge and saie verie well that they perished after S. Hierome's
correction and amendment of the Bible whose complaints of the varietie of texts all the world knowes and indeede the inutilitie and discommoditie of such multiplicitie caused them all to be neglected though some thinke our vulgata editio to haue euer beene conserued Howsoeuer we may goe on with our supposition and add that of those twenty trāslatiōs now extāt euerie one is equall to anie other Let then a sentence be proposed whose nature and definition is to decide a controuersie but with this condition which ordinarily happeneth in such a case to witt that it dependeth on the proprietie of some word or on the Emphasis of some manner of speaking Is it possible that anie reasonable man should thinke that all these translations will agree in such a thing Three or fouer peraduenture may but for twentie t' is absolutly impossible And if anie one of these translations be substantially different all the rest cannot with certaintie or euidence beare it downe sithence this might be out of a different copie with which perhapps agreed more then we haue so that we shall still returne to our former non liquet And hence followeth that although a translation in the whole bulke be morally the same booke with the originall yet metaphysically and rigorously there is great diuersitie and at least such as in our case maketh all translations of the scripture vnfitt to decide cōtrouersies by them Nephew Your discourse will not only make mee beleeue what I haue heard reported S. Augustin should saie Epist Man funda cep 5. that hee would not belieue scripture vnlesse the church's authoritie moued him therevnto but I feare it tendeth to the too great weakening of the scripture which hath beene so happily planted in the church and got this supereminent authoritie which it hath to some good effect without doubt though not for the decision of controuersies and therefore you will proue to much and in seeking to destroy one errour you will bee in danger to fall into an other This I am sure of that if you should preach this doctrine at S. Antolins the people would stone you with their brasencornerd Bibles though peraduenture if they laid all their heads together they could not giue you a sufficient answere But thus much I learne now when I reflect vpon them that they haue no reason to obiect against vs our trusting of our church and Pastours for the sense and explication of the scripture whereas thē selues must needes rely vpon a douzen or twenty Parsons or Ministers if there were so manie imployed in their translation for the verie text it self whose skills or wills might be defectiue according to their owne maxime so that we rely vpon the whole church they pore people vpon what they nether thinke certaine nor infalible nor probable but as farr as they please Vncle. I will finde a time to satisfie your feares of my diminishing the scripture's authoritie and will shew you how all I haue said doth nothing preiudice the layfull and intended vse of the scripture and if I should chance to forget I pray you put mee in minde before we part For the present I will propose you an other difficultie which is §. 7 Whether the verie rehearsing and citing of an others words doe not breede varietie and vncertaintie ANd let vs suppose the writer him self play the translatour As for example that our sauiour him self hauing spoken in Hebrew or Syriake the Holy writer is to expresse his words in Greeke or Latin And farther that this which we haue said of translatiōs be as truly it is groūded in the verie nature of diuers languages and therefore vnauoidable by anie art or industrie will it not clearely followe that euen in the originall copie writtē by the Euāgelist's owne hand there is not in rigour the true and self-significant words of our sauiour but rather a comment or Paraphrase explicating and deliuering the sense thereof Nay let him haue written in the same language and let him haue set downe euerie word and sillable yet men conuersant in noting the changes of meanings in words will tell you that diuers accents in the prononciation of them the turning of the speakers head or bodie this way or that way the allusion to some person or to some precedēt discourse or the like may so change the sense of the words that they will seeme quite different in writing from what they were in speaking So that you see how like negligent men wee cōmonly vse to presse words as the proper and identicall words of our sauiour finding them registred in the Holy writt Which in rigour and exactly speaking are but in some sorte an imperfect and equiuocall paraphrase or expression of Christ's owne true words the weakenesse of mā's speach and expressiō bearing no greater exactnesse And surely all experienced men but especially disputatife schollers who finde meanes dayly to explicate the planest words of ā authour to a quite different sense will tell you that to seeke to conuince an exact truth out of bare and dead words is to put your self into a darke some and wild laborinth And to rely vpon them is to fixe the Camelions colours in the currēt of the winde or water Wherefore cozen hauing I thinke sufficiently tould you my minde concerning the text it self let vs goe farther and looke into §. 8 The vncertaintie of equiuocatiō which of necessitie is incident in all writings ANd to proceede more clearely wee will suppose for the present that there is but one authenticall copie of the scripture written in some one language and hereby abstract from all varieties of texts by translations or errours or anie such accident and meerely considere what of necessitie followes out of this that the scripture is a booke written in words of men and whether this supposed there can be anie decisiue and decretory sense euidently and certainely gathered out of it Tell me then cozen doe you thinke t' is an easie matter to decide cōtrouersies by words or why not Nephew I know words are but signes of what is in our mindes sett and ordained to that ende by the will of man wha ars words and therefore that diuers men signifying their mindes by diuers signes come to make diuers languages And I know likewise that though it bee an ordinarie thing amongst vs to hange vp a bush to signifie thereby that in the house there is wine to be sould yet peraduenture in an other coūtrye some thing else may signifie the selling of wine and a bush some other thing So may it happen that the same word in one language may signifie one thing and in an other some thing else And because I likewise see that it may so fall out that these two nations ioyne in one or haue much commerce together by vse and custome this word may come to haue two significations euen in the same language And so will breede a difficultie in whether of the two senses it is to be
which some doe with such cōfidence for surely they must ether be proude dunces and ignorant doltes not vnderstanding what is proofe and what is not or else preuaricating miscreants counterfeiting what they doe not belieue and thinke our learned men vnable or vnwilling to discouer the follye of theyr enterprise Vncle. Your bloode is too hot nephew but if you said only that such men as promise them selues victorie with so much confidence in this case are rash and vnaduised I should thinke you wronged them not For the truth is there 's none but is so in his measure And where interest or affection is ioyned to some litle apparēce which the first sight of the text affordeth there 's presently a great impression made It is true in so graue and important a case they ought to be more staied but he whose conscience quitteth him from all too forward iudging of his neighbours euen in matters of consequence let him cast the first stone for mee I will leaue them to them selues and let you see that we are not yet at an end but farther §. 9 That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceassed FOr not only the languages in which the Holy scrtpture was writtē doe of their owne nature as I tould you breede great ambiguitie in the text but also in this that those languages are now extinct And therefore wee see that the knowledge of them is not cōmon ad vniuersall but only of some particular men and amongst them in most things mainely controuerted And of this disputable vncertaintie amongst our famous linguists none can be ignorant the nūber of Critickes in this age and the multitude of their volumes giue sufficient testimonie of it The vncertaintie of criticisme Nay they will tell you that an exact and skillfull knowledge in this Criticisme is a necessarie part and qualitie for all those who will professe the studie or interpretation of scripture And yet God knowe's vpon what slight grounds they proceed what weake ghesses are their iudgmēts how full of quarells and mistakes so that a wise man no sooner seeth them but seeth likewise that there is nothing but varieties of disputs vpon coniecturall probabilities and neuerthelesse you shall haue thē cry out runne to the fountaine goe to the spring see the originall texts not considering that there is nothing there but trubled waters that is obscure cōiectures I could tell you also that often times it happeneth that such as are imployed in the translations of these ambiguous originalls haue got by friēds and fauour that preferment and so haue let passe some places in their trālations which I could cite against their owne iudgment to complie with the will of their patrons and higher powers whom they durst not resiste But in deede their principles in them selues are so vncertaine as that the best and wisest of them will confesse they haue beene often mistaken and will not sticke to chāge their mindes now and then euen in such pointes as they thought they had the greattest euidence their art could aftord them What thinke you then deare cozen would become of Christian faith if it were only to relye vpon such a weake fundation Which must needes follow if the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion must haue their only warrant and decision from the bare written word and bee euer agitated by places of scripture and neuer concluded by a definitiue sentence Were it not too tedious I would let you see the vncertaintie of diuers particular languages wherein seuerall parts of the scripture are said to haue beene originally written but I will only tell you in a word §. 10 What vncertaintie followeth the two particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was written FIrst therefore the Hebrew hath two proprieties verie considerable the one that it is thought to be the shortest language in the world the other that it is the most eloquent For the first it cōsisteth cheefely in the writing of the words and in the scarcitie of bookes For the writing all the vowells are supposed not expressed in the originall copies and therefore only conserued by memorie and to memory we must trust for them I confesse they are now expressed by pointes wherein there is great mistaking the rules thereof being verie vncertaine and the more in that these rules and the practize of them were varied according to the diuersitie of the countries wherein the Iewes haue beene dispersed The reason of their writing without points I conceiue was becaus their vowells being at the first but fiue by making long and short grew to be more and so the first figures of them to stand only for the consonant vse of some vowells or els to haue no sound But what soeuer the origine was the effect must of necessitie breede a great obscuritie and doubtfullnesse in the language the vowells though fewer yet in vse being verie neere as much as the consonants The words are all of one or two sillables if anie be of more they are accounted exoticke and therefore verie like one an other which is also increased by the neerenesse of diuers of their letters So that both their pronuntiation and writing being easily mistaken and confounded bring 's a great disorder in the language This is likewise augmented by the want they haue of coniunctions and prepositions which not being of a sufficient number make the construction verie equiuocall manie times For the scaretie of bookes you may well conceiue it if you doe but know that the legitimate Hebrew is wholy contained in the old scripture whereof some parts were not written in Hebrew and if you saw the booke in a smale print and yet the letter bigger then our litle latin character you would see it is but a verie litle booke And what soeuer besides is written in Hebrew is not warrantable to explicate the text The Rabins affecting manie diuersities as well in words and stile as in writing Nay perhaps I might add to this that the characters them selues haue beene wholy changed since the beginning and that it is credibly reported to haue beene once lost and restored only by the memorie of Esdras So that we haue the least assurance of this language that almost can be of anie not entirely extinguished For the proprietie of the Hebrew 's Eloquence it consisteth cheefely in figures translations and number Figures or schemes are the highest part of proper Rhetoricke because they contayne the greatest force and swaye that words can giue to our appetit and if they bee rightly applyed carrie a way the auditor euen against his will vnto a strong and sadaine action These although the Prophets vse them more perfectly then euer anie Poet or Orator did yet doe they not cause much obscuritie vnlesse it be when they are vsed in Dialogue forme which where it is vsed in scripture t' is hard to discerne How soeuer they are a conuincing proofe that who
vseth them much inteÌ„de's not his writings should be dogmaticall and decisiue Translations or metaphores are cause of great obscuritie and therefore we see the Poets who cheefely vse them are not to be redd vntill a man be exercised in theÌ„ without studie and paines Nor doe anie Greeke or Latin examples shew that strength which the scripture hath in this kinde The number or Cadence which one would thinke could not be suspected of anie such matter is a cause of great ambiguitie for the Hebrews being wholy giuen there vnto in their scripture haue so manie accents of diuers effects whereof one manie times staÌ„deth for an other or is like an other in figure that you had neede of an Ariadne to lead you thorough Some of their accents are Grammaticall some Rhetoricall some musicall and as much a doe with them as with the reste of the words and verie hard it is to know when it is one accent when it is an other and when it hath this effect when that Who therefore would haue recourse to the Hebrew Text for precise and conuincing decisions doth like him that being not skillfull at his weapon would choose vpon a challenge for the hower of his combat a moonelesse midnight when the skill of his enimie could not preiudice him Nephew Marrie sir I thinke such a man should doe wisely for the question being not of fencing but of valour his enimie's skill would be no disaduantage vnto him But yet I cannot commende him that chooseth obscuritie for the decision of a doubt vnlesse he feare his cause and thinke him self in the wrong and then peraduenture his witt may be commended Vncle. It is sufficient for mee that you conceiue that this is not the way to cleere the truh To the Greeke text therefore which I will tell you that the ambiguitie of it is nothing so great as of the Hebrew yet hath it two defects The one that it wanteth those sense varying coniugations whereby the Orientall languages expresse them selues the other that by abundance or rather redundance of vnprofitable varieties it is both hard to learne and vncertaine in seÌ„se the same word signifying diuersly ether because of diuers Dialectes or of diuers applications of authours so manie hauing written in seuerall countries not depending one of an other and hauing great diuersitie of phansies Their prepositions both in constructioÌ„ and composition are irregular changing some times the sense of the primatiue verie extrauagantly in so much that meere ghesse and coniecture must preuaille the word if it be coÌ„mon being vsed in sundrie seÌ„ses if it be rare the meaning of it must be gathered out of some thing adiacent Nephew Here is enough vncle of this verball and GraÌ„maticall stuffe Wherefore I will now put you in minde of your promise to wit that you will tell mee to what end the scripture was left to the church since by reason of it's ambiguitie it is not fit to be a judge of controuersies Vncle. I will tell you presently but first I haue a word more to saie vnto you wherein because I see you are half wearie I wee wil be short and it shal bee to shew you §. 11 That the verie nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting to decide controuersies TEll me then cozen suppose you were to giue a law in writing which should last for manies ages and be obserued in manie couÌ„tries how would you cause it to be written I meane not for the language but for the frame of the worke and for the manner or methode of the deliuerie of it Nephew I doe not professe my self able to bee a law-maker yer according to the example of our laws and of the ciuill law In What forme laws ought to be made and I imagine the like of the laws of other countries it were me thinke's to be donne thus I would first cause the most commoÌ„ things to be commanded then by degrees I would descende to particulars still obseruing that seuerall matters should be vnder seuerall chapters or diuisions and not one peece here an other there euerie chapter containing all things necessarily belonging to that matter Farther I would distinguish the degrees of commandes by the degrees of penalties and rewards And if anie thing were fit partly to be declared partly to be left to discretion I would expresse so much that there might be no mistake As for the stile I would endeauour to make it the most proper and exact that possibly I could explicating ambiguous words to my power and declaring in what sense they were to be taken cutting of all superfluous words which might anie waye confound or prolong the sentences without necessitie In fine I would labour to make it the most ordinarie the most plaine and the most short that my witts could reach vnto and then according as I should haue followed these rules I should thinke to haue performed my raske Vncle. I see you would make a good states man And if reason teach you this will not the same reason tell you likewise that if the Authour of reason him self were to giue a law would he not doe the same in a more perfect degree And if in anie booke he hath not donne it doth not the same reasoÌ„ tell you that his intention was not that that booke should be a iudging law Let vs therefore see whether these conditions be obserued in the scripture or no And if it be manifest that the scripture hath them not this controuersie must needes be at an end sithence it will euidently follow that God neuer ordained the scripture for anie such pourpose but for some thing els and consequently that it were as ridiculous to seeke the decision of controuersies out of scripture as to cut with beetle or knoke with a strawe Deuiding therefore th holy scripture you shall finde The diuision of the â—ookes of the old TestameÌ„t that the bookes of the old Testament sauing Deuteronomie which is or containeth the old law with much admixtion of historie are ether Historicall oratoricall poeticall or Philosophicall Whereof the three first are excluded by their verie names from the qualities and conditions of a law instituted for the deciding of quarells though some coÌ„mandes may be therein contained vpon occasion The philosophicall bookes are such as touch litle vpon our coÌ„trouersies because they are but ether morall instructions for the life and conuersation of men amongst their neigbours or else they treate and speake only of such pointes as wee and all our Aduersaries agree in But in deede there is a maine reason against the whole text of the old law which is that the commandes were giuen as we saie personally to one people and did no farther belong to the rest of the world then in that they were naturall commandes that is in the vertue of nature obliging to obedience So that who soeuer will argue out of the old Testament must first proue the commande to be naturall which if he doe
a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike Which is as much as to aske §. 13 How scripture doth determine controuersies NPEHEW How should I know that vnlesse I were able to prooue my Religiō out of scripture or at least that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in scripture Which is beyond my capacitie Vncle. Then I will tell you cozē there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular And this I dare not saie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing scripture is able to doe for we see those who write of controuersies doe alledge but few places nor those vnauoidable nether for some pointes of Catholike doctrine Nor is it to be expected Because man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned And seeing likewise that long practise maketh men perfect in all arts There being no prohibitiō to perfect in some sort the instruction of the faithfull the oeconomie of the church and some such other things which the oppressed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectiō no maruelle I saie if these and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the scripture but shall therefore I know not who rise vp and exclame these things be superstitious hurtfull to the faithfull ād make a schisme to destroy them Who doth not see that this were plaine faction and Rebellion The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by some common principle as if by reading of scripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduersarie call's in question or also if wee finde it commēded there in generall or the authours and obseruers of it praised and extolled And in this waye I doubt not but a sensible and discreete reading of scripture at large may and will make anie true student of it a perfect beleeuing Catholike so he proceede with indifferēcie ād with a minde rather to know scripture then to looke for this or that point in it But now can you tell me cozē how it cometh to passe that sithence by an exact and particular examinatiō of the words of scripture these truths cānot be conuinced and beaten out of it how I saie is it possible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it these truths should appeare for that cānot be in the summe which is not in the particulars Nephew I can tell you that there is the same difficultie in the diuers sights of the walle which you made me experiēce but euen now but to yeild you a good reason ether of the one or the other that passeth my vnderstanding Vncle. Haue you not seene an inuētion of the Architects who can so dispose pillars in a gallerie that setting your eye in a certaine position you shall see the figure of a mā or a beast and walking a long the gallerie to goe to it it vanisheth awaie and you shall see nothing but pillars Or haue not seene a silinder or pillar of glasse before which if you laie certaine papers full of scrawolles and scrables and looking into the pillar you shall see the picture of a man or the like As these are dōne so it happeneth in our case both in the eye and in the vnderstanding For the art of these things is that certaine parts may so come together to the eye as that other parts ether by situation or by some other accident remaine hidden and that those parts which appeare being seene without the others will make this or that shape In our case likewise the quantitie of the seene parts exceeding the vnseene keepes the whole possession of the eye in the sight and of the vnderstanding in reading not letting the reste appeare And hence it is also that this common manner of vsing scripture is more secure then the exact ballancing of it For nether the varietie of translations nor the errours of copies nor the difficulties of languages nor the mutabilitie of words nor the multiplicitie of the occasions and intentions of the writers nor the abundance of the things written nor the different framinges of the bookes which be the causes of vncertaintie in a rigorous examinatiō haue anie such power as to breake the common and ordinarie sense or intention of the writer in generall as all bookes testifie vnto vs. And hence it is likewise that the holy fathers pressed scripture against the Heretickes of their times partly forced therevnto because the Heretickes generally will admitte of no proofe but out of the scripture but cheefly by reason their workes are diffuse and oratoricall befitting people vsed to orations and sermons as the Greekes and Romans were diuers of the fathers them selues bredd in that sort of learning Wherefore you shall haue them cite manie places some proper some Allegoricall some common all some times auoidable if they be taken seperatly but the whole discours more or lesse forcible according to the naturall parts or heauenly light more or lesse communicated to one then to an other yet still in the proportion of oratours who speake to the multitude and not to Socrates or Crysippus Wherefore the scripture in this kinde was a fitting weapon for them and the churche's continuing and reremaining in their doctrine sheweth that they vsed it dexterously and as it ougth to be vsed with relation and dependance of tradition Nephew Why then sir must all disputatiō of Religiō out of scripture be abolished For if there can bee no certaintie gathered out of it in a decisiue ād definitiue waie to what pourpose should a man ether alledge it or admitte it in disputes of Religion at least tell me I pray §. 14 What laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture VNCLE I am farr frō disliking disputation out of scripture so it be donne with those conditions which are fitting and which may bring the matter to some vpsh ott The first rule I would haue a Catholike obserue is not to dispute with a Protestāt vnlesse he promise to proue his position euidently and manifestly For since the Catholike knowes there may be certaine wittie probabilities and hard places of scripture brought against him it were madnesse in him to leaue his tenet custome optima legum interpres stāding for him and the practize of the church being on his side which is the greatest argument that can be brought to shew how and in what sēse the scriptures which that church hir self deliuereth are to be vnderstood it were I saie meere follie in a Catholike to leaue his tenent and accept of an other only for a probable and likely interpretation his owne being confirmed by that practize which maketh it more then probable And it is cleere the Protestant must needes pleade against possession for at the first breaking when the Protestants pretended to reforme the church she was surely in possession of those things which they pretended to take awaie and in
to conuince it by their testimonie take's a hard taske vpon him if he goe rigorously to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduersarie How so euer t' is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for such as haue time at will and great reading and vnderstanding Nephew You haue manie Aduersaries in this opinion for generally men seeke tradition out of the fathers and thinke they haue found it when in euerie age they finde seuerall fathers of the same opinion Vncle. I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde for they are profitable and necessarie for the church of God and excellent testimonies of Tradition but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition but only an effect and consequent of it nor that the multitude of Christians whose faith is to be regulated by Tradition neede to haue recourse to those learned workes Wherefore although diuers fathers in the same or different ages be found to contradict some point whereof the present church is in quiet and immemorable possession their authorities ought not to preuaile nor are they sufficiēt to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion For our faith being in some sort naturally grafted in the harts of Christians learned men may now and then mistake some points of it as well as the causes and effects of their owne nature it self according as I tould you but now And as in other points so euen in this to wit in the resolution of faith wherein as our Doctors seeme to differ now a days so might the fathers also And in particular S. Cypriā seeme's to thinke that the resolution of faith was to be made into scripture and not into Tradition though in deede he opposed not scripture to Tradition but to custome wich is a farr different thing the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apostles the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors And supposing he was mistaken it were no more thē what wee now see to consiste with the vnitie of the Church There is one obiection and but only one of moment and t' is that S. Augustin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was necessarie for their saluatiō and their words seeme to be apparent But who looketh into other passages of the same Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall and that their meaning is that the effect of sacramentall Communion to witt an incorporation into Christ's misticall bodie which is done by Baptisme is of necessitie for Children's saluation I remember not at this present anie other obiection of monent which may not be easily solued out of these principles Nephew I will suggest you one or two if you please The one of Communion vnder both kindes wherein our Aduersaries saie we leaue a knowne and practised tradition for manie ages The other concerning the bookes of scripture where they saie we accept of a new scripture or rule of faith without tradition Vncle. I did thinke cosen you could answere these your selfe For the first there is two parts of it The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily the other that some times it was giuen in one kynd only And Catholikes being in possessiō of both parts by tradition those that will proue that Catholikes goe against Tradition must proue that it was neuer administred vnder one kinde only which our Aduersaries nether goe about nor cā performe but ply only that part which is granted them to witt that ordinarily it was administred vnder both kindes For the second t' is not sufficient to shew that some haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon vnlesse they can proue that those who did not doubt were not a sufficient partie to make a Tradition frō the Apostles time And so you see it fall's into the question we mentioned before that some fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition Nephew I am loath to leaue you vncle because me thinke's I am not sufficiently armed to answere all obiections And yet what soeuer I call to minde falle's into some of these conditions you require Vncle. Let me see how skillfull you are I will try how you can answere me to §. 14 The examples of Tradition which seeme to haue failed FIrst therefore betwixt Adā's being cast out of Paradise and the Deluge there are accoūted about two thousand yeares which according to the long liues men enioyed at that time made not fully three descēts and yet in Noy's time the forgetting of God's law was so great that a generall floud was necessarie for the clēsing of the world Sem was Noy's sonne and before his death both the Diuisions of Nations happened because of their pride against God And as most Historians thinke the selecting of Abram's familie into God's seruice the rest of the world hauing abādoned it Likewise what is become of all antien Religions the most part of them deliuered by Tradition they are all gone and rooted out So that plaine experience is against those fine discourses you approued so higly What answere would you make to this Nephew Marry I would deny it to be true I meane I would saie that God's law was not forgotten but neglected before the floud And the like at the building of Babell And for Abraham's time we know that Abimelech and Pharao and Melchisedech and others as Iob when soeuer he liued obserued God's law As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes for anie thing I know and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law and consequently belong not to this cōtrouersie And thus I thinke I should quitte my self wel enough Vncle. Soone enough at least but let vs see if it be with as good speede as much haste For suppose they should reply that the neglect of God's law must of necessitie breede obliuion and therefore that ether God's law was forgottē or shortly would haue beene if the punishement of the Deluge had not preuēted it And for the men you cite of Abraham's time they were but few and though in that time God's law had yet some litle force looke but into Mose's time and you shall see all ouerrūne with Idolatrie For Heathen Religions t' is said of the Druides that their Ceremonies were not written but deliuered by memorie in verse from the Elder to the yonger and so conserued And the Histories of the welch ād Irish seeme to haue beene conserued in the like manner by the Bardes which how full of fables they were euerie man knowe's So that these things seeme sufficient to discredit Tradition Nephew I must intreat your helping hand to fasten me vpō this shaking flore otherwise I perceiue I am to weake to stand of my self Vncle. T' is not the flore you stand vpon but the want of confidence which make's you so vnsteadfast For tell me I pray if you remember whereon rely's