go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so what other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latine and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the Disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and Governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not onely the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the Concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church Government Canons and Common Prayer Book so did the other make them in love with Democracie by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourse and Communication with people in the Country continnually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyrany leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyrany was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less Learned And the Gentlemen envying the Privy Council whom they thought less wise than themselves for 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any Ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politick of the Ancient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Q. Eliz. did not because they durst not Publickly Preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad Preaching in most of the Market Towns of England as the Preaching Fryers had formerly done upon working days in the morning in which these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the Manner and Matter of their Preaching applied themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a likeing of their Doctrines and good Opinion of their Persons And first for the manner of their Preaching They so framed their Countenance and Gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their Pronunciation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragedian in the World could have Acted the part of a right godly man better then these did insomuch that a man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any Ambitious Plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had designed or doubt that the Vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual Pronunciation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing else but zeal to the service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working days leaving their Calling and on Sunday leaving their own Churches to hear them Preach in other places and to Despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not as well as they And as for those Ministers that did not usually Preach but instead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly For the matter of their Sermons because the Anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gracious with them then to Preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther
or Ministers or Assemblies that Govern the Church under him or them that have the Soveraign Power B. Some doubts may be raised from this that you now say for if men be to learn their Duty from the sentence which other men shall give concerning the meaning of the Scriptures and not from their own Interpretation I understand not to what end they were Translated into English and every man not only permitted but also exhorted to read them for what could that produce but diversity of Opinion and consequently as man's nature is Disputation breach of Charity Disobedience and at last Rebellion Again since the Scriptures were allowed to be read in English why were not the Translations such as might make all that 's read understood even by mean Capacities Did not the Jews such as could read understand their Law in the Jewish Language as well as we do our Statute Laws in English and as for such places of the Scripture as had nothing of the Nature of a Law it was nothing to the Duty of the Jews whether they were understood or not seeing nothing is punishable but the Transgression of some Law The same question I may ask concerning the New Testament for I believe that those Men to whom the Original Language was natural did understand sufficiently what Commands and Counsels were given them by our Saviour and his Apostles and his immediate Disciples Again how will you answer that question which was put by St. Peter and St. John Acts 4. 1◠when b◠Ananias the High-Priest and others of the Council of Jerusalem they were forbidden any more to teach in the name of Jesus whether is it right in the sight of God to hearken to you more than unto God A. The Case is not the same Peter and John had seen and daily conversed with our Saviour and by the Miracles he wrote did know he was God and consequently knew certainly 〈◊〉 their Disobedience to the High Priests present command was just Can any Minister now say that he hath immediately from God's own Mouth received a Command to disobey the King or know otherwise than by the Scripture that any Command of the King that hath the form and nature of a Law is against the Law of God which in divers places he directly and evidently Commandeth to obey him in all things The Text you cite doth not tell us that a Minister's Authority rather than a Christian King 's shall decide the questions that arise from the different Interpretations of the Scripture And therefore where the King is head of the Church and by consequence to omit that the Scripture it self was not receieved but by the Authority of Kings and States chief Judge of the Rectitude of all Interpretations of the Scripture to obey the King's Laws and publick Edicts is not to disobey and obey God a Minister ought not to think that his Skill in the Latine Greek or Hebrew Tongues if he have any gives him a priviledge to impose upon all his Fellow-subjects his own sense or what he pretends to be his sense of every obscure place of Scripture nor ought he as often as he hath found some fine Interpretation not before thought on by others to think he had it by inspiration as fine as he thinks it is not false and then all his Stubornness and Contumacy towards the King and his Laws is nothing but Pride of heart and Ambition or else Imposture And whereas you think it needless or perhaps hurtful to have the Scriptures in English I am of another mind There are so many places of Scripture easily to be understood that teach both true Faith and good Morality and that as fully as is necessary to Salvation of which no Seducer is able to dispose the mind of any ordinary Readers that the Reading of them is so profitable as not to be forbidden without great Damage to them and the Commonwealth B. All that is required both in Faith and Manner 's for Man's Salvation is I confess set down in Scripture as plainly as can be Children Obey you◠Parents in all things Servants obey your Masters Let all men be subject to the Higher Powers whether it be the King or those that are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty so to do they see not that the safety of the Commonwealth and consequently their own depends upon the doing of it Every man by Nature without Discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself by his Obedience he Reads that Covetousness is the Root of all Evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the Root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present Life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is sealed up in Greek and Latine and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers but they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sence of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot chuse but by reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and quality are followed by their inferiour Neighbours that look more upon the example of those Men whom they Reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease then upon precepts and Laws B. These men of the condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others these are therefore they that pretermitting the easiy places that teach them their Duty fall to scanning only the Mysteries of Religion Such as are how it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but one how the Deity could be made flesh how that flesh could be really present in many places at once where 's the place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines whether the Will of Man be free or govern'd by the Will of God whether Sanctity comes by inspiration or Education by whom Christ now speaks to us whether by the King or by the Bible to
the honour of God if it be the Presbyterians fail in that A. Why so They kept some Holy Days and they had Feasts among themselves though not upon the same Days that the Church Ordains but when they thought fit as when it pleased God to give the King any notable Victory and they govern'd themselves in this point by the Holy Scriptures as they pretend to be and can prove they did not believe so B. Let us pass over all other Duties and come to that Duty which we owe to the King and consider whether the Doctrine taught by these Divines which adhered to the King be such in that point as may justifie the Presbyterians that incited the People to Rebellion for that 's the thing you call in Question A Concerning our Duty to our Rulers he hath these words An obedience we must pay either Active or Passive the Active in the Case of all Lawfull Commands that is whenever the Magistrate Commands something which is not contrary to some Command of God we are then bound to Act according to that Command of the Magistrate to do the thing he requires but when he enjoyns any thing contrary to what God hath Commanded we are not then to pay him this 〈◊〉 obedience we may nay we must refuse thus to Act yet here we must be very well assâ—r'd that the thing is so contrary and not pretend Conscience for a Cloak of stubborness we are in that case to obey God rather than men but even this is a season for the Passive obedience we must patiently suffer what he inflicts on us for such refusal and not to secure our selves rise up against him B. What is there in this to give Colour to the late Rebellion A. They will say they did it in obedience to God inasmuch as they did believe it was according to the Scripture out of which they will bring perhaps examples of David and his Adherents that resisted King Saul and of the Prophets afterwards that vehemently from time to time Preached against the Idolatrous Kings of Israel and Judah Saul was their Lawfull King and yet they Paid him neither Active nor Passive obedience for they did put themselves into a posture of defence against him though David himself spared his Person and so did the Presbyterians put into their Commission to their General that they should spare the Kings-Person besides you cannot doubt but that they who in the Pulpit did animate the People to take Arms in defence of the then Parliament alleadged Scripture that is the Word of God for it if it be lawful then for Subjects to resist the K. when he Commands any thing against the Scripture that is contrary to the Command of God and to be Judge of the meaning of the Scripture it is impossible that the Life of any King or the Peace of any Christian Kingdom can be long secure It is this doctrine that divides a Kingdom within it self whatsoever the men be Loyal or Rebels that Write or Preach it publickly And thus you see that if those seditious Ministers be tryed by this Doctrine they will come off well enough B. I see it and wonder at People that having never spoken with God Almighty nor knowing one more than another what he hath said when the Laws and the Preacher disagree should so keenly follow the Minister for the most part an ignorant though a ready tongu'd Scholar rather than the Laws that were made by the King with the consent of the Peers and the Commons of the Land A. Let us examine his words a little nearer First concerning passive Obedience when a Thief hath broken the Laws and according to the Law is therefore executed can any Man understand that this suffering of his is an obedience to the Law Every Law is a Command to do or to forbear neither of these is fulfilled by suffering If any suffering can be called obedience it must be such as is voluntary for no involuntary Action can be counted a submission to the Law He that means that his suffering should be taken for obedience must not only not resist but also not fly nor hide himself to avoid his punishment And who is there among them that discourses of passive obedience when his life is in extream danger that will voluntarily present himself to the Officers of Justice Do not we see that all Men when they are led to execution are both bound and guarded and would break loose if they could and get away Such is their passive Obedience Christ saith the Scribes and Pharisees sate in Moses Chair all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do Mat. 23. 3. which is a doing an active Obedience and yet the Scribes and Pharisees appear not by the Scripture to have been such Godly men as never to command any thing against the Revealed will of God B. Must Tyrants also be obeyed in every thing actively or is there nothing wherein a Lawful Kings Commands may be disobeyed what if he should command me with my own hands to Execute my Father in Case he should be Condemned to Dye by the Law A. This is a Case that need not be put We never have read nor heard of any King or Tyrant so inhumane as to command it if any did we are to consider whether that Command were one of his Laws for by disobeying Kings we mean disobeying his Laws those his Laws that were made before they were applied to any particular person for the King though as a Father of Children and a Master of domestick Secrets yet commands the people in general never but by a precedent Law and as a Publick not a Natural person and if such a Command as you speak of were contrived into a general Law which never was nor never will be you were bound to obey it unless you depart the Kingdom after the publication of the Law and before the Condemnation of your Father B. You Author says farther in refusing Active obedience to the King that Commanded any thing contrary to God's Law we must be very well assured that the thing is so contrary I would sain know how is it possible to be assured A. I think you do not believe that any of those Refusers do immediately from God's own Mouth receive any Command contrary to the Command of the King who is God's Lieutenant nor any other way than you and I do that is to say than by the Scriptures and because men do for the most part rather draw the Scripture to their own sense then follow the true sense of the Scripture there is no other way to know certainly and in all cases what God Commands or forbids us to do but by the sentence of him or them that are constituted by the King to determine the sence of the Scriptures upon hearing of the particular Case of Conscience which is in question and they that are so constituted are easily known in all Christian Commonwealths whether they be Bishops