the satisfaction of all men Christianly disposed Whereas had I desired only to rid my hands of these Captious Iesuites for certainly this Question was Captiously asked it had beene sufficient to have restored the Question thus How doe you know the Testimony of the Church by which you say you know Scripture to be the Word of God to be Divine and Infallible If they proove it by Scripture A. C. p. 53. Et vid. §. 16. N. 28. as all of them doe and as A. C. doth how doe they know that Scripture to be Scripture It is but a Circular Assurance of theirs by which they found the Churches Infallibility upon the Testimonie of the Scripture And the Scriptures Infallibility upon the Testimony of the Church That is upon the Matter the Churches Infallibility upon the Churches Infallibility But I labour for edification not for destruction And now by what I have here said I will weigh my Answer and his Exception taken against it F. The Bishop said That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be Supposed and needed not to be Proved B. Why but did I say That this Principle The § 17 Books of Scripture are the Word of God is to be supposed as needing no Proof at al to a Naturall man Or to a man newly entring upon the Faith yea or perhaps to a Doubter or Weakling in the Faith Can you think me so weake It seemes you doe But sure I know there is a great deale of difference betweene Ethnicks that deny and deride the Scripture and men that are Born in the Church The first have a farther way about to this Principle The other in their very Christian Education sucke it in and are taught so soone as they are apt to learne it That the Books commonly called The Bible or Scripture are the Word of God And I dealt with you †Dixi sicut â—…i congruâ—… ad quâ—…â—…bam c. S Aug. l. 1. Retract c. 13. as with a Christian though in Errour while you call Catholike The Words before spoken by me were That the Scripture onely not any unwritten Tradition was the Foundation of Faith The Question betweene us and you is Whether the Scripture do containe all necessary things of Faith Now in this Question as in all Nature and Art the Subject the Scripture is and must be a Nor is it such a strange thing to heare that Scripture is such 〈◊〉 supposeâ—…d Principle among Chriâ—…ians Quod à Scriptura evidenter deduâ—…itur est evidenter verum suppositis Scripturis Bellarm. L. 4. de Eccl. Milit. c. 3. §. 3. supposed The Quaere between the Romane-Catholikes and the Church of England being onely of the Praedicate the thing uttered of it Namely whether it containe all Fundamentals of Faith all Necessaries for Salvation within it Now since thâ—… Question proposed in very forme of Art proves not but b De Subjecto enim quaeritur semper non Subjectiâ—…n ipsum supposes the Subject I thinke I gave a satisfying Answer That to you and me and in this Question Scripture was a Supposed Principle and needed no Proofe And I must tell you that in this Question of the Scriptures perfect Continent it is against all Art yea and Equity too in Reasoning to call for a Proofe of That here which must go unavoydably supposed in this Question And if any man will be so familiar with Impiety to Question it it must be tryed in a preceding Question and Dispute by it self Yet here not you onely but c L. 4. de verb. Dei c. 4. §. Quarâ—…ò necesse est 〈◊〉 the lesuite here apud A. C. p. 49. Bellarmine and others run quite out of the way to snatch at Advantage F. Against this I read what I had formerly written in my Reply against M. Iohn White Wherein I plainely shewed that this Answer was not good and that no other Answer could be made but by admitting some Word of God unwritten to assure us of this Point B. Indeed here you read out of a Booke which § 18 you called your owne a large Discourse upon this Argument But surely I so untied the knot of the Argument that I set you to your Book againe For your selfe confesse that against this you read what you had formerly written Well! what ere you read there certaine it is you do a great deale of wrong to M. Hooker a L. 3 §. 8. and my selfe that because we call it a Supposed or Presumed Principle among Christians you should fall by and by into such a b Whereas Bellarm. sayes expresly that in the Controversies betweene you and us Non agitur de Metaphysicis subtilitatibus quae sinc periculo ignorari interdum cum laude oppugnari possunt c. Bellarm. Praefat. Operibus praefix §. 3. Metaphysicall Discourse to prove That that which is a c His omnibus Questionibut praemittenda est Controversia de Verbo Dei Neque enim disputari potest nisi priùs in aliquo Communi Principio cum Adversariis conveniamus Convenit autem inter nos omues omninò Haereticos Verbum Dei esse Regulam fidei ex quâ de Dogmatibus judicandum sit esse Commune Principium ab omnibus concessum unde Argumenta ducantur c. Bellarm. Praefat. Operib prafix §. ult And if it be Commune Principium ab omnibus concessum then I hope it must be taken as a thing supposed or as a Praecognitum in this Dispute betweene us Praecognitum fore-knowne in Science must be of such light that it must be knowne of and by it selfe alone and that the Scripture cannot be so knowne to be the Word of God I will not now enter againe into that Discourse having said enough already how farre the Beame which is very glorious especially in some parts of Scripture gives light to prove it selfe You see neither Hooker nor I nor the Church of England for ought I know leave the Scripture alone to manifest it selfe by the light which it hath in it selfe No but when the present Church hath prepared and led the way like a preparing Morning-Light to Sun-shine then indeed we settle for our Direction but not upon the first opening of the morning Light but upon the Sun it selfe Nor will I make needlesse enquiry how farre and in what manner a Praecognitum or Supposed Principle in any Science may be proved in a Higher to which that is subordinate or accepted in a Prime Nor how it may in Divinity where Prae as well as Post-cognita things fore as well as after-knowne are matters and under the manner of Faith and not of Science strictly Nor whether a Praecognitum a presupposed Principle in Faith which rests upon Divine Authority must needs have as much and equall Light to Naturall Reason as Prime Principles have in Nature while they rest upon Reason Nor whether it may justly bee denied to have sufficient Light because not equall Your owne Schoole †Colligitur apertà ex
of all doubt neither First because many Learned men have challenged many Popes for teaching Heresy and that 's against the true Faith And that which so many Learned Men have affirmed is not out of all doubt Or if it be why does Bellarmine take so much paines to confute and disproove them as †Bellar. L. 4. de Ro. Pont. c. 8. he doth Secondly because Christ obtained of his Father every thing that he prayed for if he prayed for it absolutely and not under a Condition Father I know thou hearest me alwayes S. Iohn 11. Now Christ here prayed absolutely for S. Peter Therefore whatsoever he S. Iohn 11. 42. asked for him was granted Therfore if Christ intended his Successors as well as himselfe his Prayer was granted for his Successors as well as for himselfe But then if Bellarmine will tell us absolutely as he doth * Donum hoc loco Petro impetratum etiam ad Successores pertinet Bel. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. §. Quarto Donum hoc That the whole Gift obtained by this Prayer for S. Peter did belong to his Successors and then by and by after breake this Gift into two parts and call the first part into doubt whether it belongs to his Successors or no he cannot say the second part is out of all doubt For if there be reason of doubting the one there 's as much reason of doubting the other since they stand both on the same foot The Ualidity of Christ's Prayer for Saint Peter Yea but Christ charged S. Peter to governe and feede his whole flocke S. Iohn 21. Nay soft 'T is but his Sheepe S. Iohn 21. 15. and his Lambes and that every Apostle and every Apostles Successor hath charge to doc * Mat. 28. 29 S. Mat. 10. 17. The same power and charge is gâ—…en to them al. A. C. p. 58. S. Matth. 28. But over the whole Flocke 〈◊〉 find no one Apostle or Successor set And 't is a poore shift to say as A C doth That the Bishop of Rome is set over the whole Flocke because both over Lambes and Sheep For in every flock that is not of barren Weathers there are Lamâ—…s and Sheepe that is †And this seemes to me to allâ—…de to that of S. Paul 1 Corinth 3 2. and Heb. 5. 12. Some are sed with milke and some with stronger meat The Lambes with milke and the Sheepe with stronger meate But here A. C. followes Pope Hildebrand close who in the Case of the Emperor then asked this Question Quando Christus Ecclesiam suam Petro commisit dixit Pasce Oves meas excepitne Reges Plat. in vita Greg 7. And certainly Kings are not exempted from being fed by the Church But from being spoyled of their Kingdomes by any Church-men that they are weaker and stronger Christians not People and Pastors Subjects and Governouâ—…s as A. C. expounds it to bring the Necks of Princâ—…s under Romane Pride And if Kings bee meant yet then the command is Pasce feed them But Deponere or Occiure to depose or kill them is not Pascere in any sense Lanii id est non Pastori that 's the Butchers not the Shepheards part If a Sheep go astray never so far 't is not the Shepheards part to kill him at least if he doe non pascit dum occidit he doth not certainly feede while he killes And for the Close That the Bishop of Rome shall never refuse to feed and governe the whole stock in such sort as A. C. p. 58. that neither particular Man nor Church shall 〈◊〉 just Cause under pâ—…etence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Sâ—…paration from the whole Church By A. C s. favour this is meere begging of the Question He sayes the Pope shall ever governe the Whole Church so as that there shall be no just Cause given of a Separation And that is the very Thing which the Protestants charge upon him Namely that he hath governed if notthe Whole yet so much of the Church as he hath beene able to bring under his Power so as that he hath given too just Cause of the present continued separation And as the Corruptions in the Doctrine of Faith in the Church of Rome were the Cause of the first Separation so are they at this present day the Cause why the separation continues And further I for my part am cleare of Opinion that the Errours in the Doctrine of Faith which are charged upon the whole Church at least so much of the whole as in these parts of Europe hath beene kept under the Romane Iurisdiction have had their Originall and Continuance from this that so much of the Vniversall Church which indeed they account All hath forgotten her owne Liberty and submitted to the Romane Church and Bishop and so is in a manner forced to embrace all the Corruptions which the Particular Church of Rome hath contracted upon itself And being now not able to free her selfe from the Romane Iurisdiction is made to continue also in all her Corruptions And for the Protestants they have made no separation from the Generall Church properly so called for therein A. C. said well the Popes Administration can give no Cause to separate from that but A. C. p. 58. their Separation is only from the Church of Rome and such other Churches as by adhering to her have hazarded themselves and do now miscall themselves the Whole Catholike Church Nay even here the Protestants have not left the Church of Rome in her Essence but in her Errours not in the Things which Constitute a Church but only in such Abuses and Corruptions as work toward the Dissolution of a Church F. I also asked who ought to judge in this Case The B. said a Generall Councell B. And surely What greater or surer Iudgement you can have where sense of Scripture is doubted § 26 then a Generall Councell I doe not see Nor doe you doubt And A. C. grants it to be a most Competent A. C. p. 59. Iudge of all Controversies of Faith so that all Pastors be gathered together and in the Name of Christ and pray unanimously for the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost and make great and diligent search and examination of the Scriptures and other Grounds of Faith And then Decree what is to bee held for Divine Truth For then saith he 't is Firme and Insallible or els there is nothing firm upon earth As faire as this Passage seems and as freely as I have granted that a Generall Councell is the best Judge on earth where the sense of Scripture is doubted yet even in this passage there are some things Considerable As first when shall the Church hope for such a Generall Councell in which all Pastors shall be gathered together there was never any such Generall Councell yet nor doe I believe such can be had So that 's supposed in vaine and you might have learn'd this of *
Puente La Convenientia de las dâ—…s Monarquias Catolicas la de la Iglesia Romana y la del Imperiâ—… Espaniol y 〈◊〉 de la prâ—…dentia de los Reyes Catolicos de Espania a tâ—…dos los Reyes dâ—…l mundâ—… a Spanish Friar followes the same resemblance betweene the Monarchies of Rome and Spaine in a Tract of his intitled The Agreement of the two Catholike Monarchies and Printed in Spanish in Madrid Anno 1612. In the Frontispice or Title Page of this Booke there are set out two Scutchions The one bearing the Crosse-Keyes of Rome The other the Armes of Castile and Leon both joyned together with this Motto In vinculo pacis in the bond of peace On the one side of this there is a Portraiture resembling Rome with the Sunne shining over it and darting his beames on S. Peters Keyes with this Inscription * Luminare Majus ut prâ—…sit Vrbiâ—… Orbi Luminare Majus the greater Light that it may governe the City that is Rome and the whole world And on the other side there 's another Image designing Spaine with the Moone shining over that and spreading forth its Raies upon the Spanish Scutchion with this Impresse †Luminare Minus ut subdatur Vrbi dominetur Orbi Luminare minus the lesse Light that it may be subject to the City of Rome he meanes and so be Lord to governe the whole world besides And over all this in the top of the Title-Page there is Printed in Capitall Letters Fecit Deus duo Luminaria magna God made two great Lights There followes after in this Author a Discovery at large of this Blazoning of these Armes but this is the Substance of it and abundantly enough to shew what is aimed at by whom and for whom And this Booke was not stollen out without the will and consent of the State For it hath Printed before it all manner of Licence that a Booke can well have For it hath the approbation of Father Pedro de Buyza of the Company of the lesuites Of Iohn de Arcediano Provinciall of the Dominicans Of Diego Granero the Licencer appointed for the supreme Councell of the Inquisition And some of these revised this booke by a Por Orden de los Seniores del Conseso Supremo Order from the Lords of that Councell And last of all the b Por Mandade del Rey nucstro Senior Kings Priviledge is to it with high Commendation of the Worke. But the Spanyards had need looke to it for all this least the French deceive them For now lately Friar Campanella hath set out an Eclogue upon the Birth of the Dolphin and that Permissu Superiorum by Licence from his Superiors In which he sayes expresly c Quum Gallia alat 20000000 hominum Ex singulis centenis sumendo unum colligit 200000. strenuorum militum stipendiatorum commodè perpetuoque Propterea omnes terrae Principes metuunt nunc magis à Gallia quà m unquam ab aliis Paratur enim illi Regnum Vniversale F. Tho. Campanellae Ecloga in Principis Galliarum Delphini Nativitatem cum Annot. Discip. Parisiis 1639. cum permissu Superiorum That all the Princes are now more afraid of France then ever for that there is provided for it Regnum Vniversale The Vniversall Kingdome or Monarchy But t is time to Returne For A. C. in this passage hath beene very Carefull to tell us of a Parliament A. C. p. 60. and of Living Magistrates and Iudges besides the Law-Bookes Thirdly therefore the Church of England God be thanked thrives happily under a Gracious Prince and well understands that a Parliament cannot be called at all times And that there are visible Iudges besides the Law-Bookes and One Supreme long may he be and be happy to settle all Temporall differences which certainly he might much better performe if his Kingdomes were well rid of A. C. and his fellowes And she believes too That our Saviour Christ hath left in his Church besides his Law-booke the Scripture Visible Magistrates and Iudges that is Archbishops and Bishops under a gracious King to governe both for Truth and Peace according to the Scripture and her owne Canons and Constitutions as also those of the Catholike Church which crosse not the Scripture and the Iust Laws of the Realme * Non est necesse ut sub Christo sit Unus Rector totius Ecclesiâ—… sed sussicit quòd sint plures regentes diversas provincias sicut sunt plures Reges gubernantes plura regna Ocham Dial. L. 2. Tract x. p. 1. c. 30. ad 1. But she doth not believe there is any Necessity to have one Pope or Bishop over the Whole Christian world more then to have one Emperor over the whole World Which were it possible She cannot thinke fit Nor are any of these intermediate Iudges or that One which you would have Supreme Infallible But since a Kingdome and a Parliament please A. C. so well to patterne the Church by I 'le follow him in the A. C. p. 60. way he goes and be bold to put him in minde that in some Kingdomes there are divers Businesses of greatest Consequence which cannot be finally and bindingly ordered but in and by Parliament And particularly the Statute Lawes which must bind all the Subjects cannot be made and ratified but there Therefore according to A. Cs. owne Argument there will be some Businesses also found Is not the setling of the Divisions of Christendome one of them which can never be well setled but in a †Propter defectum Conciliorum Generalium totius Ecclesiâ—… qua sola audet intrepidè corrigere omnes ea mala qua Vniversalem tangunt Ecclesiam manentia diu incorrecta crescunt c. Gerson Declar at Defectuum Uirâ—… 〈◊〉 To. 1. p. 209. Generall Councell And particularly the making of Canons which must binde all Particular Christians and Churches cannot be concluded and established but there And againe as the Supreme Magistrate in the State Civill may not abrogate the Lawes made in Parliament though he may Dispense with the Sanction or penalty of the Law quoad hic nunc as the Lawyers speake So in the Ecclesiasticall Body no Bishop no not the Pope where his Supremacie is admitted hath power to * Sunt enim Indissolubilia Decreta quibus reverentia debita est Prosper cont Collatorem c. 1. And Turrecremata who saies every thing that may be said for the Popes Supremacy yet dares not say Papam posse revocare tollere omnia Statuta Generalium Conciliorum sed Aliqua tantum Io. de Turrecre Summa de Ecclesiâ L. 3. c. 55. Et postea Papa non potest revocare Decreta primorum quatuor Conciliorum quia non sunt nisi Declarativa Articulorum Fidei Ibid. c. 57. ad 2 um disanull or violate the true and Fundamentall Decrees of a Generall Councell though he may perhaps dispense in some Cases with some Decrees By all which it
Contrary to his Conscience Presupposing it granted that the Church of Rome erres only in not Fundamentals and such Errours not Damnable which is absolutely and clearly denyed by D. White To this A. C. sayes nothing but that D. VVhite did not give this Answer A. C. p. 67. at the Conference I was not present at the Conference betweene them so to that I can say nothing as a witnesse But I thinke all that knew D. White will believe his affirmation as soone as the Iesuites To say no more And whereas A. C. referres to the Relation of the Conference betweene D. White and M. Fisher A. C. p. 67. most true it is there * A. C. in his relation of that Conference p. 26. D. VVhite is charged to have made that Answer twise But all this rests upon the credit of A. C. only For †For so 't is said in the Title-page by A. C. he is said to have made that Relation too as well as this And against his Credit I must engage D. Whites who hath avowed another Answer as a §. 37. Nu. 1. NUM 8. before is set downe And since A. C. relates to that Conference which it seemes hee makes some good account of I shall here once for all take occasion to assure the Reader That most of the Points of Moment in that Conference with D. VVhite are repeated againe and againe and urged in this Conference or the Relation of A. C. and are here answered by me For instance In the Relation of the first Conference the Iesuite takes on him to prove 1 the Vnwritten VVord of God out of 2. Thes. 2. pag. 15. And so he doth in the Relation of this Conference with me pag. 50. In the first he stands upon it That the Protestants 2 upon their Principles cannot hold that all Fundamentall points of Faith are contained in the Creed pag. 19. And so he doth in this pag. 46. In the first he would faine through 3 M. Roger's sides wound the Church of England as if shee were unsetled in the Article of Christ's Descent into Hell pag 21 And he endeavours the same in this pag. 46. In the first he is very earnest to prove That the Schisme was made by the Protestants pag. 23. And he is as earnest for 4 it in this pag. 55. In the first he layes it for a Ground That Corruption of Manners is no just Cause of separation 5 from Faith or Church pag. 24. And the same Ground he layes in this pag. 55. In the first he will have it That the 6 Holy Ghost gives continuall and Infallible Assistance to the Church pag. 24. And just so will he have it in this p 53. In the first he makes much adoe about the Errig of the 7 Greeke Church page 28. And as much makes he in this page 44. In the first he makes a great noyse about the 8 place in S. Augustine Ferendus est disputator errans c. page 18. and 24. And so doth hee here also page 45. In the first he would make his Proselytes believe That 9 he and his Cause have mighty advantage by that Sentence of S. Bernard 'T is intolerable Pride And that of S. Augustine 'T is insolent madnesse to oppose the Doctrine or Practice of the Catholike Church page 25. And twise he is at the same Art in this page 56. and. 73. In the first he 10 tels us That * Postquam discessionem a toto mundo facere coacti sumus Calv. Epist. 141. Calvin confesses That in the Reformation there was a Departure from the whole world page 25. And though I conceive Calvine spake this but of the Roman world and of no Uoluntary but a forced Departure and wrote this to Melancthon to worke Vnity among the Reformers not any way to blast the Reformation Yet we must heare of it againe in this page 56. But over and above the rest one Place with his owne glosse upon 11 it pleases him extremely 'T is out of S. Athanasius his Creed That whosoever doth not hold it entire that is saith he in all Points and Inviolate that is saith hee in the true unchanged and uncorrupted sense proposed unto us by the Pastors of his Catholike Church without doubt he shall perish everlastingly This he hath almost verbatim in the first page 20. And in the Epistle of the Publisher of that Relation to the Reader under the Name of VV. I. and then againe the very same in this if not with some more disadvantage to himselfe page 70. And perhaps had I leasure to search after them more Points then these Now the Reasons which mooved mee to set downe these Particulars thus distinctly are two The One that whereas the * In the begining of the Conference set out by A. C. Iesuite affirmes that in a second Conference all the speech was about Particular matters and little or nothing about the maine and great generall Point of a Continuall Infallible Uisible Church in which that Lady required satisfaction and that therefore this third Conference was held It may hereby appeare that the most materiall both Points and Proofes are upon the matter the very same in all the three Conferences though little bee related of the second Conference by A. C. as appeares in the Preface of the Publisher VV. I. to the Reader So this tends to nothing but Ostentation and shew The Other is that Whereas these men boast so much of their Cause and their Ability to defend it It cannot but appeare by this and their handling of other Points in Divinity that they labour indeed but no otherwise then like an Horse in a Mill round about in the same Circle no farther at night then at noone The same thing over and over againe from Tu es Petrus to Pasce oves from thou art Peter to Do thou feed my Sheepe And backe againe the same way F. The Lady asked Whether she might be saved in the Protestant Faith Vpon my soule said the Bishop you may Vpon my soule said I there is but one saving Faith and that is the Romane B. So it seems I was confident for the Faith professed § 38 in the Church of England els I would not have taken the salvation of another upon my soule And sure I had reason of this my Confidence For to believe the Scripture and the Creeds to believe these in the sense of the Ancient Primitive Church To receive the foure great Generall Councels so much magnified by Antiquity To believe all Points of Doctrine generally received as Fundamentall in the Church of Christ is a Faith in which to live and die cannot but give salvation And therefore I went upon a sure ground in the adventure of my soule upon that Faith Besides in all the Points of Doctrine that are contioverted betweene us I would faine see any one Point maintained by the Church of England that can be proved
assurance and for which we have no warrant at all in Scripture while wee in the meane time neglect the ordinary way and meanes commanded by Christ. Secondly 't is very neare an Expression in Scripture it selfe For when S. Peter had ended that great Sermon of his Act. 2. he Act. 2. 38 39. applies two comforts unto them Vers. 38. Amend your lives and be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost And then Verse 39. hee inferres For the promise is made to you and to your children The Promise what Promise What Why the Promise of Sanctification by the Holy Ghost By what meanes Why by Baptisme For 't is expresly Be baptized and ye shall receive And as expresly This promise is made to you and to your children And therefore A. C. may finde it if he will That the Baptisme of Infants may be directly concluded out of Scripture For some of his owne Party a Nullum excipit non Iudaeum non Gentilem non Adultum non Puerum c. Ferus in Act. 2. 39. Ferus and b Et ad Filios vestros quare debent consentire quum ad usum rationis perveniunt ad implenda promissa in Baptismo c. Salm. Tract 14. upon the place Salmeron could both find it there And so if it will doe him any pleasure he hath my Answer which he saith he would be glad to know 'T is true a Bellar. L. 4. de Verbo Dei c. 9. §. 5. Bellarmine presses a maine Place out of S. Augustine and he urges it hard S. b S. Aug. Gen. ad Lit. c. 23. Consuetudo Matris Ecclesia in Baptizandis parvulis nequaquam spernenda est nec omninò credenda nisi Apostolica esset Traditio Augustine's words are The Custome of our Mother the Church in Baptizing Infants is by no meanes to be contemned or thought superfluous nor yet at all to be believed unlesse it were an Apostolicall Tradition The Place is truly cited but seemes a great deale stronger than indeed it is For first 't is not denyed That this is an Apostolicall Tradition and therefore to be believed But secondly not therefore onely Nor doth S. Augustine say so nor doth Bellarmine presse it that way The truth is it would have beene somewhat difficult to finde the Collection out of Scripture onely for the Baptisme of Infants since they do not actually believe And therefore S. Augustine is at nec credenda nisi that this Custome of the Church had not been to be believed had it not been an Apostolicall Tradition But the Tradition being Apostolicall led on the Church easily to see the necessary Deduction out of Scripture And this is not the least use of Tradition to lead the Church into the true meaning of those things which are found in Scripture though not obvious to every eye there And that this is S. Augustine's meaning is manifest by himself who best knew it For when he had said c Cur Antiquam fidei Regulam frangere conaris S. Aug. Ser. 8. de ver Apos c. 8. Hoc Ecclesia semper tenuit Ib. Ser. 10. c. 2. as he doth That to baptize children is Antiqua fidei Regula the Ancient Rule of Faith and the constant Tenet of the Church yet he doubts not to collect and deduce it out of Scripture also For when Pelagius urged That Infants needed not to be baptized because they had no Originall Sin S. Augustine relies not upon the Tenet of the Church only but argues from the Text thus a Quid necessarium habuit Infans Christum si non aegrotat S. Matth. 9. 12. Quid est quod dicis nisi ut non accedant ad Iesum Sed tibi clamat Iesus Sine Parvulos venire ad me S. Aug. in the fore-cited places What need have Infants of Christ if they be not sicke For the sound need not the Physitian S. Mat. 9. And againe is not this said by Pelagius ut non accedant ad Iesum That Infants may not come to their Saviour Sed clamat Iesus but Iesus cries out Suffer Little ones to come unto me * S. Marc. 10. 14. S. Mar. 10. And all this is fully acknowledged by b Nullus est Scriptor tam vetustus qui non ejus Originem ad Apostolorum seculum pro certo referat Calv. 4. Inst. c. 16 §. 8. Calvine Namely That all men acknowledge the Baptisme of Infants to descend from Apostolicall Tradition †Miserrimum alylum foret si pro Defensione Paedubaptismi ad nudam Ecclesiae authoritatem fugere cogeremur Calv. 4. Inst. c. 8. §. 16. And yet that it doth not depend upon the bare and naked Authority of the Church Which he speakes not in regard of Tradition but in relation to such proofe as is to be made by necessary Consequence out of Scripture over and above Tradition As for Tradition * §. 15. Num. 1. A. C. p. 49. I have said enough for that and as much as A. C. where 't is truly Apostolicall And yet if any thing will please him I will add this concerning this particular The Baptizing of Infants That the Church received this by c Orig in Rom 6 6. tom 2 p. 543. Pro hoc Ecclesia ab Apâ—…stolis Traditionem suscepit etiaÌ„ parvulis BaptismuÌ„ dare Et S. Aug. Ser. 10. de verb. Apos c. 2. Hoc Ecclesia à MajoruÌ„ side percepit And it is to be observed that neither of these Fathers nor i believe any other say that the Church received it à Traditione solâ or à Majorum side sola as if Tradition 〈◊〉 exclude collection of it out of Scripture Tradition from the Apostles By Tradition And what then May it not directly be concluded out of Scripture because it was delivered to the Church by way of Tradition I hope A. C. will never say so For certainly in Doctrinall things nothing so likely to be a Tradition Apostolicall as that which hath a * Yea and Bellarmine himself avers Omnes Traditiones c. contineri in Scripturis in universali L. 4. de verb. Det non scripto c. 10. §. Sic etiam And S. Basil. Serm. de fide approves only those Agrapha quae non sunt aliena à piâ secunduÌ„ ScripturaÌ„ Sententid root and a Foundation in Scripture For Apostles cannot write or deliver contrary but subordinate and subservient things F. I asked how he knew Scripture to be Scripture and in particular Genesis Exodus c. These are believed to be Scripture yet not proved out of any Place of Scripture The Bishop said That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be supposed and needed not to be proved B. I did never love too curious a search into § 16 that which might put a man into a wheele and circle him so long betweene proving Scripture by Tradition and Tradition by Scripture till the Divell finde a meanes to dispute him into Infidelity and make him believe neither I
Patriarch to another who were fit or unfit to be admitted to their Communion if they upon any Occasion repaired to their Seas were sent mutually And as freely and in the same manner from Rome to the other Patriarchs as from them to it Out of which I thinke this will follow most directy That the Church-Government then was Aristocraticall For had the Bishop of Rome been then accounted Sole Monarch of the Church and beene put into the Definition of the Church as he is now by a Bellar. L. 3. de Eccles. c. 2. §. Nostra autem Bellarmine all these Communicatorie Letters should have beene directed from him to the rest as whose admittance ought to be a Rule for all to Communicate but not from others to him or at least not in that even equall and Brotherly way as now they appeare to be written For it is no way probable that the Bishops of Rome which even then sought their owne Greatnesse too much would have submitted to the other Patriarchs voluntarily had not the very Course of the Church put it upon them Besides this is a great and undoubted Rule given by b Non â—…im Râ—…publica est in Ecclesiâ sed Ecclesia in Republicâ i. e. in Imperio Romano Optat. L. 3. Optatus That wheresoever there is a Church there the Church is in the Common-wealth not the Common-wealth in the Church And so also the Church was in the Romane Empire Now from this Ground I argue thus If the Church be within the Empire or other Kingdome 't is impossible the Government of the Church should be Monarchicall For no Emperour or King will indure another King within his Dominion that shall bee greater then himselfe since the very induring it makes him that indures it upon the matter no Monarch Nor will it disturbe this Argument That two Great Kings in France and Spaine permit this For he that is not blinde may see if hee will of what little value the Pope's power is in those Kingdomes farther then to serve their owne turnes of Him which They do to their great advantage Nay farther the Ancient Canons and Fathers of the Church seem to me plaine for this For the a Conc. Antioch c. 9. p. 507. Councell of Antioch submits Ecclesiasticall Causes to the Bishops And what was done amisse by a Bishop was corrigible by a b Conc. Nic. 1. c. 5. Antioch c. 12. Synod of Bishops but this with the c Conc. Nie. 1. c. 4. Antioch can 9. Metropolitane And in Case these did not agree the d Conc. Antioch c. 14. Metropolitane might call in other Bishops out of the neighbouring Provinces And if Things setled not this way a Generall Councell e Sed praeponitur Scriptura S. August L. 2. de Bapt. cont Donat c. 3. under the Scripture and directed by it was the Highest Remedy And f Nam cùm Statutum sit omnibus nobis c. singulis Pastoribus portio gregis c. S. Cypr. L. 1. Ep 3. S. Cyprian even to Pope Cornelius himselfe sayes plainely That to every Bishop is ascribed a portion of the flocke for bim to governe And so not all committed to One. In all this the Government of the Church seemes plaâ—…nely Aristocraticall And if all other Arguments faile wee have one left from Bellarmine who opposes it as much as any g Bellar. L. 1 de Ro. Pont. c. 8. L. 2. de Concil c. 16. twice for failing And yet where hee goes to Exclude Secular Princes from Church-Governement h Bellar. L. 1. de Ro. Pâ—…nt c. 7. all his Quotations and all his Proofes run upon this Head to shew That the Governement of the Church was ever in the Bishops What sayes A. C. now to the Confession of this great Adversarie A. C. p. 64 65. and in this great Point extorted from him by force of Truth Now if this bee true then the whole foundation of this Argument is gone The Church Militant is no Kingdome and therefore not to be Compared or Iudged by One. The Resemblance will not hold Next suppose it a Kingdome yet the Church Militant remaining one is spread in many Earthly Kingdomes and cannot well bee ordered like any one particular a Liâ—…et sit 〈◊〉 quòd uni Populâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sit unus Episcopus non expedit taâ—…n 〈◊〉 toti pâ—…pulo fideli praesit unus sâ—…lus Tum quia omnia Negotia 〈◊〉 popâ—…li partialis potest sustinere unus sâ—…us Nullus autem unus potest sustinere omnia Negotia etiam majora omnium Christianorum Tum quia minus 〈◊〉 est ut populus partialis parvus inâ—…iatur ab 〈◊〉 Episâ—…opo quam ut totus vel ferè totus populus Christâ—… insiciatur ab uno Capite quod omnibus praesit 〈◊〉 L. 2. Dial. tract 1. p. 3. c. 30. ad 8. And besides this of Ockam To that Common Argument That Monar â—…call Governement is the best and therefore undâ—…dly that which Christ instituted for his Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Answer That a Monarchy is the best forme of Government in one City or Countrey Arist. L. 8. Moâ—…l c. 10. But it followes not That it is the best in respect of the whole world where the Parts are so remote and the Dispositions of men so various And therefore Bellarm. himselfe confesses Monarchiam Aristocratiae Democratiae admixtam utiliorem esse in hác vità quà m simplex Monarchia est L. 1. de Ro. Pont. c. 3. §. 1. Kingdome And therefore though in one particular Kingdom there be many Visible Iudges and one Supreme yet it followes not That in the Vniversall Militant Church there must be one Supreme For how will he enter to Execute his Office if the Kings of those Kingdomes will not give leave Now here though A. C. expresses himselfe no farther yet I well know what he and his Fellowes would be at They would not be troubled to aske leave of any severall Kings in their severall Dominions No they would have one Emperour over all the Kings as well as One Pope over all the Bishops And then you know b In the first Glosse ascribed to Isidore in Gen. 1. 16. ' Tiâ—… Per Solem intelligitur Regnum per Lunam Saceidotium But Innocent the third almost six hundred yeares after Isidore's death perverts both Text and Glosse Thus. Ad firmamentum Coeli i. e. Vniversalis Ecclesiae fecit Deus duo magna Luminaria hoc est dâ—…us inâ—…ituit Potestates Pontificalem Regalem c. 〈◊〉 quantainter Solem Lanam tanta 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reges differentia cognoscatur Epist. ad Imperaâ—…â—…nopolitanum Decret L. 1. de Majoritate Obâ—…ntia Tit. 33. cap. Solitae who told us of two great Lights to governe the world the Sun and the Moone that is the Pope and the Emperour At the first it began with more modesty The Emperour and the Pâ—…pe And that was somewhat Tolerable For c 〈◊〉 Miliâ—… 〈◊〉 Sâ—…ripturis 〈◊〉
and Bishops And in this Councell he condemned Peter Lombard and in him his Opinion about the Incarnation And therefore of necessity either Pope Alexander erred and that in Cathedrâ as Pope in Condemning him Or Pope Innocentius in restoring him The truth is Pope Alexander had more of Alexander the Great then of S. Peter in him And being accustomed to warlike Imployments he understood not that which Peter Lombard had written about this Mystery And so He and his Learned Assistants Condemned him unjustly And whereas you professe * Apud A. C. p. 68. after That you hold nothing against your Conscience I must ever wonder much how that can be true since you hold this of the Pope's Infallibility especially as being Propheticall in the Conclusion If this be true why doe you not lay all your strength together all of your whole Society and make this one Proposition evident For all Controversies about matters of Faith are ended and without any great trouble to the Christian World if you can but make this one Proposition good That the Pope is an Infallible Iudge Till then this shame will follow you infallibly and eternally That you should make the Pope a meere man Principium Fidei a Principle or Authour of Faith and make the mouth of him whom you call Christ's Vicar sole Iudge both of Christ's Word be it never so manifest and of his Church be she never so Learned and carefull of his Truth And for Conclusion of this Point I would faine know since this had beene so plaine so easie a way either to prevent all Divisions about the Faith or to end all Controversies did they arise why this briefe but most necessary Proposition The Bishop of Rome cannot erre in his Iudiciall Determinations concerning the Faith is not to be found either in Letter or sense in any Scripture in any Councell or in any Father of the Church for the full space of a thousand yeares and more after Christ For had this Proposition been true and then received in the Church how weake were all the Primitive Fathers to prescribe so many Rules and Cautions for avoydance of Heresie as Tertullian and Vincentius Lirinensis and others do and to indure such hard Conflicts as they did and with so many various Haereticks To see Christendome so rent and torne by some distempered Councels as that of Ariminum the second of Ephesus and others Nay to see the whole world almost become Arrian to the amazement of it selfe And yet all this time not so much as call in this Necessary Assistance of the Pope and let the world know That the Bishop of Rome was infallible that so in his Decision all differences might cease For either the Fathers of the Church Greeke as well as Latine knew this Proposition to be true That the Pope cannot Erre Iudicially in matters belonging to the Faith or they knew it not If you say they knew it not you charge them with a base and unworthy Ignorance no wayes like to over-cloud such and so many Learned men in a Matter so Necessary and of such infinite use to Christendome If you say they knew it and durst not deliver this Truth how can you charge them which durst die for Christ with such Cowardise towards his Church And if you say they knew it and with-held it from the Church you lay a most unjust Load upon those Charitable Soules which loved Christ too well to imprison any Truth but likely to make or keepe peace in his Church Catholike over the world But certainly as no Divine of worth did then dreame of any such Infallibility in Him so is it a meere dreame or worse of those Moderne Divines who affirme it now a The wilde Extent of the Popes Infallibility and Jurisdiction is a Mistake These are the Words of a Great Romane Catholike uttered to my selfe But I will spare his Name because he is living and I will not draw your Envy upon him And as b Puto quòd ipsi etiam rideant quum hoc audiunt tamen nifi hoc dicant quod erabescant si dicant non habent omninò quod dicant Sed quid ad nos Nâ—…ini invidemus Legant nobis hoc de Scripturis Sanctis credimus S. August de Vnit. Eccl. c. 17. S. Augustine somtimes spake of the Donatists and their absurd limiting the whole Christian Church to Africa onely so may I truly say of the Romanists confining all Christianity to the Romane Doctrine governed by the Pope's Infallibility I verily perswade my selfe That even the Jesuites themselves laugh at this And yet unlesse they say this which they cannot but blush while they say they have nothing at all to say But what 's this to us we envy no man If the Pope's Decision bee infallible Legant Let them read it to us out of the Holy Scripture and wee 'l believe it In the meane time take this with you that most certaine it is That the Pope hath no Infallibility to attend his Cathedrall Iudgement in Things belonging to the Faith For first besides the silence of Impartiall Antiquity Diverse c Papa non solùm Errore Personali sed Errore Iudiciali potest errare in Materia Fidei Almain L. de Author Eccles. c. 10. of your Owne confesse it yea and proove it too by sundry Instances Secondly there is a great Question among the Learned both Schoole-men and Controversers Whether the Pope comming to bee an Hereticke may bee Deposed And 't is learnedly disputed by d L. 2. de Rom. Font c. 30. Bellarmine The Opinions are different For the e Si sit à Fide de vius Dist. 40. Can. Si Papa Canon-Law saies expresly He may be judged and deposed by the Church in Case of Heresie †Iure Divino Papatu privatus est c. Io. de Turrecrem L. 4. Par. 2. c. 20. Et Bellar. L. 2. de Re. Pent. c. 30. Io. de Turrecremata is of Opinion That the Pope is to be deposed by the Church so soone as he becomes an Hereticke though as yet not a manifest one Because he is already deprived by Divine Right And recites another opinion That the Pope cannot be deposed though be fall into secret or manifest Heresie * Papa factus Hareticus non est ipso facte vel jure Divino vel humano depositus sed deponendus Cajet Tract de Author Papa Concilii c. 20. Cajetan thinkes that the Pope cannot be deposed but for a manifest Heresie and that then he is not deposed ipso facto but must be deposed by the Church †Papa Hareticus manifestus per se desinit esse Papa Caput c. Et tum potest ab Ecclesiâ Iudicari puniri Bellar. L. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 30. §. Est ergo quinta Bellarmines owne Opinion is That if the Pope become a manifest Hereticke he presently ceases to be Pope and Head of the Church and may then be Iudged and