they are of the same mind and party M. Are you a Lawyer and do you accuse men in the Temple without naming them and bringing proof of their guilt Noxa caput sequitur should all the Clergy be called guilty if Sibthorp or Manwaring or Heylin were proved so what error you accuse them of prove and punish them for no other 6. But I prove that the Bishops themselves made other Ordination necessary Because they would Ordain none without sinful subscriptions and conditions which must not be yielded to If you can prove the terms lawful on which they Ordain I shall trie your skil anon II. I farther prove the Ordination in question valid thus Where there is a true notification of God's will that this person shall be a Minister of the Gospel there is no want of validity in his Ordination But those here ordained by Presbyters might have such a true notification of God's will Ergo The major is plain Because God's will and Man's consent are the fundamentum of the Relation therefore nothing can be wanting to it 's being and validity The Minor is proved Those men that have laudable ability and willingness and the consent of a people in true necessity and the approbation of a National Assembly of Learned Divines of which many Bishops were called to be members and the investing Ordination of the gravest Senior Pastors that were then to be had had a true notification of God's will that they should be his Ministers But such were these in question Ergo. III. The way of ordination which was valid in the Primitive Church is now valid But such is that in question Ergo. As to the Minor The Ordination of such Pastors as were but the Rectors of single Congregations was it that was valid in the Primitive Church But such is that in question Doctor Hammond labours to prove that in Scripture time there were no other Bishops or Presbyters but the single Pastors of single Assemblies Mr. Clerkson hath fully proved and I more fully in my Treatise of Episcopacy that for a hundred and fifty years if not much more there were no particular Churches bigger than our Parishes A Bishop then was but the chief Parish or Congregational Pastor who guided it with his Assistance And such are all our Incumbents especially in great Towns who have Chapels and Curates and Lecturers to assist them And Grotius de Imper. sum Pot. sheweth that really the chief Pastor of a Church is a Bishop whatever they call him But I have so largely proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy pag. 231 232 c. that our questioned Ordainers were scripture Bishops and that those now called Presbyters Ordained long after that I must not repeat the same things here again IV. Those that are in Orders may confer Orders Ordinis est Ordinare as Vsher was wont to say As Physicians make Physicians and Philosophers make Philosophers and Geneâ—ation propagateth the Species And our Church consenteth to this 1. In that Presbyters must concur in Ordination by Imposition of hands which is an act of authority and collation 2. In that the Convocation hath a greater power even Canon making and that Convocation consisteth half and more of Presbyters and the Canons Excommunicateth all that deny it to be the represensative Church of England But Presbyters have the power of Order as Bishop Carlton de Iurisdict proveth it commonly acknowledged equal with Bishops pag. 7. And the Church of England in King Aelfrik's time ad Wolf. in Spelman pag. 576. l. 17. Affirm that Bishops and Presbyters are but one Order V. Those may ordain validly whose Ordination is more warrantable than that of Roman Bishops for our Bishops own theirs as valid and ordain them not again when they turn Protestants But the Presbyters that Ordained here fourteen years did it more warrantably than the Roman Bishops Ergo 1. The Papists Ordain men to a false Office to be Mass-Priests But the said Pastors ordained none but to the same office that Christ instituted 2. The Papists have their power of Ordination from the Pope whose own power and office in Specie is a false Usurpation But it is not so here where the ordaining Pastors were lawfully called 3. Papists Ordination enters them into a false Church in Specie a pretended catholick Church headed by the Pope but our Pastors entered them into no Church but Christs 4. Papists make them take sinful Oaths and Conditions before they Ordain them But these Pastors at least that imposed not the Covenant did not If yet any will nullifie the Reformed Churches and Ministry and their Ordination and not the Papists we may understand what their Mind and Communion is VI. That Ordination is valid which is less culpable than many Diocesans But such is that in question Ergo To the proof of the Minor which only needs proof here 1. Some Diocesans here have been Papists as Godfrey Goodman of Gloucester and divers have pleaded for and owned a Forreign Iurisdiction which the Oath of Supremacy abjureth 2. I have fully proved in the said Treatise of Episcopacy that the Office of Pastors of single Churches is more warrantable than our Diocesans who are the sole Bishops of many score or hundred Churches 3. The said Presbyters at least who medled not with the Covenant imposed no unlawful condition on the Ordained as too many Bishops have done 4. Many Bishops plead the derivation of their power from Rome And what theirs is I shewed before But because I must not write a Treatise on this one question you may read it done copiously and unanswerably by Voetius against Comel Iansenius de desperata Causa Papatus Yet I add one difference more The Ordainers and Ordained in question had the consent of the Flocks and neighbour Ministers but the said Bishops come in by the Magistrate without the consent or knowledge of the Flocks and so do the Ministers usually whom they Ordain And what the ancient Church thought of this abundance of Canons shew I 'le now cite but one Concil Nic. 2. Can. 3. Omnem Electionem quae fit a Magistratibus Episcopi Presbyteri vel Diaconi irritam manere ex canone dicente siquis Episcopus secularibus Magistratibus usus per eos Ecclesiam obtinuerit deponatur segregetur omnes qui cum eo Communicant Oportet enim eum qui est promovendus ad Episcopatum ab Episcopis eligi quemadmodum a sanctis patribus Nicaenis decretum est in Can. qui dicit Episcopum oportet maxime quidem ab omnibus qui sunt in provincia constitui And many Councils nullifie their Episcopacy that come not in by the election or consent of Clergy and People which ad hominem is somewhat to them that urge such Councils against us L. I confess your reasons seem unanswerable at least as to the case of necessity which I am convinced was the case of those that were ordained when there were no Bishops to whom they could have access or no
Offices as a Body of many Members or a Chain of many Links as we say Bonum est ex Causis integris And he that wounds any one Member wounds the Man and he that breaketh one Link breaketh the Chain And he that accuseth any one part of the Government accuseth the Government thereby And there is no doubt in the World but they so intended that made this Canon L. And what have you against your Obedience to this M. You may easily know what by what is already said 1. I have fully proved as aforesaid in my Treatise of Episcopacy that if Episcopacy were never so certainly of Divine Institution this Form of Diocesan Prelacy deposeth quantum in se the old Church Form the old Episcopacy the old Presbytery and almost all true Discipline and in stead of each sets up that which is repugnant to the Word of God. And must we all confederate to maintain this Church Corruption and all agree to renounce Reformation or any Conviction tending to Repentance 2. I have told you what it is for Lay-men and Courts to arrogate the Decretive Power of the Church Keys and for single Priests and Officials to rule all the Clergy and People as under them And for our Prelate to undertake to be the sole Bishop over many Hundred Clergy And then to Govern per alios in a secular manner even by Lay-men that do that in his Name which he knows not of and this in order to Gaols and Ruine If all this be agreeable to God's Word what is contrary to it 3. I have told you what it is to make every Church Officer so necessary as that it should be Excommunication to say Any one of them is sinful when as Learned good Men as most the World hath have written to prove almost all of them sinful corrupt Inventions of Arrogance and that it 's far worse for Men to presume to make new Forms and Offices of Church Government than new Ceremonies 4. The Parliament of England condemned the Oath called the caetera Oath in the Canon of 1640. And the late long Parliament of 1662. never restored it nor any since And was it not formed according to this Canon What 's c. but And the rest that bear Office therein reliquos ad ejusdem gubernaculum constitutos For my part tho' I have oft read over Cousins Tables and the Canons I do not yet know and remember all the Church Governing Courts and Offices How many there be besides the Bishop the Chancellors Court the Arches the Prerogative Court the Arch-deacons Commissaries Officials Surrogates I know not And are every one of these become as necessary to be taken for lawful as the twelve Apostles or the Articles of our Creed For my part I am far from thinking that those Bishops and Doctors should be Excommunicated or Damned who by Faction are drawn to deny the Ministry and Churches that have not Prelatical Ordination and Government and shall all be condemned that think as ill of Civilians Excommunicatings 5. I have told you what it is for every Lord Knight and Gentleman that doth but say that any of these Church Governing Offices are against the Word of God to be ipso facto an Excommunicate man. And for the people to be put to question whether they may chuse them for Parliament men and whether they may sit in Parliament while Excommunicate L. This Canon with the three or four adjoining make me begin to think hardlier of the Canoneers than I thought I should ever have done as to their honesty M. I would not have you think too hardly of them but only to think truly of Nonconformity Chap. XXVII Point XXIV Of Publishing the 8th Canons Excommunications L. VVHat is the Eighth Canon and its Excommunication M. Whoever shall hereafter affirm or teach that the Form and Manner of Making and Consecrating Bishops Priests or Deacons containeth ANY THING in it that is repugnant to the Word of God Let them be Excommunicated ipso facto and not to be restored until he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. What have you against the Execution of this M. A great deal In sum it is unrighteous oppressing and dividing to cast out all Persons from the Church of Christ who think that nothing is faulty in the Book of Ordination or in their Principles or Practice there expressed And we dare not curse those that Christ doth bless should we do this for a Benefice in what should we differ from the sin of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness whose iniquity and madness his Ass rebuked saith St. Peter 2 Pet. 2. 15. Yea shall we not be far worse than he that for an House full of Silver and Gold could not go beyond the Word of the Lord and did not curse but bless Gods people And it is not proud malignant Tongues reviling Gods Servants and calling their Opinions wicked Errors that will make Christ disown his Members or will warrant Balaam or us to curse them O how unlike is this to the Spirit and Ministry of Christ for Prelates and Priests to curse and cast out the Children of God for saying that they go against his Law. L. But what is amiss in the Book of Ordination M. I am anon to tell you that But if there were nothing amiss in it yet the belief of its innocency is not necessary to Salvation L. But if every man have leave to accuse the Orders of the Church what Order can be maintained M. 1. Leave modestly to express dissent in a doubtful case may stand with Order 2. If men do it disorderly there be other Penalties besides ipso facto Excommunication Every breach of the peace is not Rebellion nor punisht with Death But I 'll tell you briefly what may occasion good men to say that their Ordinations are sinful 1. In that they thereby obtrude Pastors on the Churches upon the bare choice of a Patron without or against the peoples wills 2. In that they professedly ordain such as their Canon forbids to Preach or Expound any Doctrine 3. In that they determine that Bishops Priests and Deacons are three distinct Orders which yet is an undetermined Controversie among even the Learnedst Papists And must we damn and cut off men for that which the very Papists leave at liberty 4. In that they ordain men to an Office which Scripture maketh no mention of Dr. Hammond saith that it cannot be proved that there were any Presbyters subject to Bishops in Scripture times nor any but Bishops None that had not power of Ordination and the Keys nor any Bishops of a multitude of Churches and Presbyters both which are here ordained 5. In that they Swear Obedience to Arch-bishops and their Sees and make Priests Covenant Obedience to their Ordinaries as aforesaid If a godly man do as Bucer did to King Edward the Sixth as you may see in his Scripta Anglic. and desire some of these faults to be amended doth he deserve
to save their Money and the better to serve their Faction that we may if possible distinguish and know all such dangerous Enemies we will strictly require all Church-wardens and Constables at all our Monthly Meetings to give us a full account of all such as do not every Sunday resort to their own Parish-Churches and are not at the beginning of Divine Service and do not behave themselves Orderly and Soberly there observing all such decent Ceremonies as the Laws enjoyn And that they likewise Present unto us the Names of all such as have not received the Holy Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in their own Parish-Churches Thrice in the Year 3. Being fully satisfied as well by the clear Evidence of the late Horrid PLOT as by our own long and sad Experience That the Nonconformist Preachers are the Authors and Fomeâ—â—ers of this Pestilent Faction and the implacable Enemies of the Established Government and to whom the late Execrable Treasons which have had such dismal effects in this Kingdom are principally to be imputed and who by their present obstinate refusing to Take and Subscribe an Oath and Declaration That they do not hold it Lawful to take up ARMS against the KING and that they will not endeavour any Alteration of Government either in Church or State do necessarily enforce us to conclude that they are still ready to engage themselves if not acutally engaged in some Rebellious Conspiracy against the KING and to invade and Subvert his GOVERNMENT wherefore we resolve in every Parish of this County to leave strict Warrants in the hands of all Constables for the Seizing of such Persons And as an encouragement to all Officers and others that shall be instrumental in the apprehending of any of them so as they may be brought to Justice we will give and allow Forty shillings as a Reward for every Nonconformist Preacher that shall be so secured And we Resolve to Prosecute them and all other such Dangerous Enemies of the Government and common Absenters from Church and Frequenters of CONVENTICLES according to the Directions of a Law made in the Five and Thirtieth Year of the Reign of Queen ELIZABETH Entituled An Act for the keeping Her Majesties Subjects in due OBEDIENCE Lastly That we may never forget the infinite Mercies of Almighty God in the late Wonderful Deliverance of our Gracious KING and his Dearest BROTHER and all His Loyal Subjects who were designed for a Massacre from the Horrid Conspiracy of the Phanatiques and their Accomplices and that we may perpetuate as well our own Thankfulness as their Infamy that the Generations to come may know their Treachery and avoid and never trust men of such Principles more and also that we our selves may perform our publick Duty to Almighty God before we enter upon the Publick Service of our Countrey We Order Resolve and Agree with the Advice and Concurrence of the Right Reverend Father in God our much Honoured and Worthy Lord BISHOP to give and bestow for the Beautifying of the Chappel in the Castle of EXON and for the erecting of decent Seats there Ten Pounds And we will likewise give and continue Six Pounds to be paid yearly to any one of the Church of Exon whom the said Lord BISHOP shall appoint to read the DIVINE SERVICE with the Prayers lately appointed for the day of Thanksgiving on the Ninth of September last and to Preach a Sermon exhorting to OBEDIENCE in the said Chappel on the first day of every general Quarter-Sessions of the Peace held in the said Castle to begin precisely at Eight of the Clock in the Morning And may the Mercies of Heaven which are infinite always protect our Religious and Gracious KING his Dearest BROTHER and every Branch of that ROYAL FAMILY and may all the Treasonable Conspiracies of those Rebellious Schismaticks be always thus happily prevented Hugo Vaughan Cler. Pacis Com. praed That the continued Care of His Majesties Iustices of the Peace for the County of DEVON for the Safety of His Majesties Sacred Person the Preservation of the Publick Peace and advancement of true Religion may be fuller known and have a better Effect I do hereby Order and Require all the CLERGY of my Diocess within the County of Devon deliberately to publish this Order the next Sunday after it shall be tendred to them THO. EXON Now Archbishop of York THE CONTENTS CHap. 1. The Introductory Conference Ch. 2. The things presupposed as agreed on Ch. 3. What our Nonconformity is not in 50 Instances Ch. 4. A brief Enumeration of the things imposed on us which are the Matter of our Nonconformity Ch. 5. I. Of Reordination Ch. 6. II. Of the Oath and Covenant of Canonical Obedience to Bishops and Ordinaries Ch. 7. III. Ordained Ministers forbidden to Preach or Expound any Scripture or Matter or Doctrine Can. 49. Ch. 8. IV. and V. Of Subscribing that there is nothing in three Books contrary to the Word of God and Declaring Assent and Consent to all in the Liturgy c. Ch. 9. VI. Of Assenting that it is CERTAIN by the Word of God that Infants baptized dying before actual Sin are undoubtedly saved qua tales not exceepting the seed of Atheists Iews or any Ch. 10. VII Of the English sort of Godfathers at Baptism and their Vows Ch. 11. VIII Of refusing to Baptize such as have not such Godfathers Ch. 12. IX Of the Dedicating symbol of Crossing at Baptism Ch. 13. X. Of denying Baptism where Crossing is refused Ch. 14. XI Of Rejecting from Communion all that dare not receive Kneeling Ch. 15. XII Of consenting to the false Rule as true for finding Easter Day always Whether small lyes be Sin Ch. 16. XIII Of Pronouncing all Saved that are Buried except the Excommunicate Vnbaptized and Self-Murderers Ch. 17. XIV Of Consenting to read so much of the Apocrypha Ch. 18. XV. Of Assenting to Mis-translations of God's Word and subscribing that they are not contrary to it Ch. 19. XVI Of Consenting to reject all from Christian Communion who desire not the English manner of Episcopal Confirmation C. 20. XVII Of Consenting to all the Ornaments of Church and Ministers which were in use in the Second year of King Edw. 6. Ch. 21. XVIII Of giving account to the Ordinary of all that we keep from the Sacrament that he may proceed against them according to the Canons which leads us to consider those Canons Ch. 22. XIX Of Publishing Lay-Chancellors Excommunications and Absolutions according to the Canons Ch. 23. XX. Of Publishing Excommunications according to the fourth Canon Ch. 24. XXI Of Publishing Excommunications according to the fifth Canon Ch. 25. XXII Of Publishing Excommunications by the sixth Canon Ch. 26. XXIII Of Publishing Excommunications by the seventh Canon Ch. 27. XXIV Of Publishing Excommunications by the eighth Canon Ch. 28. XXV Of Excommunicating all that call Dissenters a Church according to the 9th 10th and 11th Canons Ch. 29. XXVI Of executing Canon 27 rejecting Nonconformists from Communion Ch. 30.
it unlawful to reproach all Churches that we see to be faulty but it is our duty to keep peace with all XXVIII VVe hold mental distant Communion in Faith and Love with many Churches that by imposing sin do deny us local Communion XXIX Though I here tell you once for all that I justifie not all that I can thus bear with yet we can submit by peaceable silence to many abuses in a Church which we dare not subscribe to and approve and use also passive Obedience where active is unlawful XXX VVe are not against God-Fathers and God-Mothers as used of old that is when the Parents are the Covenanters for their Child and their Death or Apostasie is feared for others to promise if they dye or apostatize to take care of the Child or for any Adopters or Owners to do it that take the Child as theirs XXXI VVe are so far from being against true confirmation as it is the taking persons that own their Baptismal Covenant solemnly into the number of adult Members and Communicants that we desire it and have written for it as a chief means of the true Reformation of all our Churches in the Land. XXXII VVe differ not in Faith or meer Doctrine from the Church of England as it 's in the Thirty Nine Articles but only in One new Article put into the new Liturgy of the Salvation of Baptized Infants as undoubtedly certain by the Word of God without any exception if they then dye XXXIII VVe are not against reading the profitable part of the Apocrypha as other Humane VVritings may be read sufficiently distinguished from the word of God. XXXIV VVe are for Corporal VVorship as a due expression of Spiritual And we are against all undecent expressions in Praying or Preaching and all undecent Habits Gestures or Actions XXXV VVe blame not the Liturgy for extending the words of Charity and Hope as far as there is any reasonable ground in Sacraments Absolution and Buryal XXXVI VVe are not for mens invading the Ministry unordained but believe that Senior Pastors or Bishops are ordinarily the regular Judges of the fitness of Candidates for the Ministry XXXVII VVe are not for unlimited Toleration But that the Rulers justly distinguish in Law and License 1. The approved whom they must own and maintain 2. The tolerable whom they must tolerate 3. The intollerable whom they must restrain from doing hurt XXXVIII VVe are for making true Religion as National and extensive as may be and for a National Church 1. As the associated Community of Churches in a Nation is so called 2. And as they are all accidentally united under one Christian Soveraign Though we abhor the casting out all that be not of our opinion and measure and that cannot submit to all that I here enumerate which I and others of my mind can submit to XXXIX VVe are so far from desiring to draw people from the Parish Churches into Conventicles that we would keep up the honour of them to the utmost of our power as knowing how greatly the countenance and maintenance of Rulers conduceth to the furtherance of Religion and that the publick Religion will be the common and National Religion and most will be there And if the Protestant Religion were reduced to Tolerated Conventicles Popery would possess its place and become National and soon withdraw even private Toleration as we see in France XL. VVe are not for Preaching when we are forbidden where there is not a real and evident need of our Labours XLI VVe believe not that the Scots Covenant or any other doth oblige us to Sedition Rebellion Schism or any sin nor doth disoblige us from any Obedience due to any Superior XLII VVe refuse not the Oxford Oath or any such because it is an obligation to obey our Rulers in Lawful things nor because it restraineth us from resisting Authority for we give as much to Humane Soveraignty and confess as much obedience due to them from Subjects 1. As any Text of Scripture speakes 2. Or any General Council save what they give to the Pope and his Vassals 3. Or as any Confessions that we know of of any Christian Churches agree in 4. Or which Lawyers Politicians and Historians Protestants Papists or Heathens agree in as far as we are acquainted XLIII VVe are not against the use of Synods or Councils nor against Princes using their advice for such Laws circa sacra as belong to them to make VVe believe Councils should be used as far as the common good and Communion of the Catholick Church requireth it though no Foreigners have Jurisdiction over us And we hold that if they agree of any thing conducible to the common good though their agreement be not a Law but a Contract yet the general command of keeping the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace obligeth all to hold such concord for the ends sake that have no special reason against it In these Forty three things we oppose not conformity L. And if yet after all this Agreement we must be destroyed by divisions the heavy Curse of God is on us and will surely fall on them that are the causes of it who ever they be CHAP. IV. A brief enumeration of the things imposed on us which is the matter of our Nonconformity M. DO you know what it is that we are required to conform to L. I know it is to use the Liturgies Ceremonies and submit to the Bishops as your Governours I know no more M. And yet dare you become our Judge If you are no more exact and just in matters of Law your Clients must pay for it Before I come to handle the particulars I will set together here the things required of us and how much of them we refuse I will tell you when I try them and give you our Reasons against them I. Whereas few of the Nonconforming Ministers were at Age and Ordained till Diocesans were put down in England and were Ordained by an Assembly of Senior Pastors which were then in possession of the Power and had many years the Approbation of the whole National Assembly of Divines at Westminster before they were admitted to any Incumbency none of these may now exercise their Ministry unless they be Re-ordained by Diocesans II. No man can be Ordained by them and admitted to any Cure that will not take the Oath of Canonical Obedience as they call it and in his Ordination Covenant to obey his Ordinary III. No man must Preach the Gospel by the authority of his Ordination and Office till moreover he have got a Licence from the Bishop to Preach and till he have got that Licence to Preach he may not take upon him to Expound in his own Cure OR ELSEWHERE ANY SCRIPTURE OR MATTER OR DOCTRINE but shall only study to read plainly and aptly without glossing or adding the Homilies already set forth or hereafter to be published by lawful Authority Can. 49. IV. No man may be Ordained or be a Licenced
nor to refuse or delay to baptize in private in case of danger who ever desireth him to do it 2. The Twenty nine Canon saith No Parent shall be urged to be present nor be admitted to answer as Godfather for his own Child Nor any Godfather or Godmother shall be suffered to make any other answer or speech than by the Book of Common-Prayer is prescribed in that behalf The Parent may say what he will to God in secret But at the Christening of his Child if he should but say I believe God's promise to the faithful and their seed I do devote my Child to Christ and engage him in his Covenant or I promise to educate him to Christianity he breaketh the Canon and goeth against the Churches Law. I did before the Bishops at the Savoy 1661. put the case to them thus without fiction An Infidel of my Parish that useth openly to talk against the Scripture and Life to come to avoid inconveniencies resolveth to send his Child to be baptized and I must not refuse it by the Law Hath the Child right to Baptism and is it undoubtedly saved Dr. Sanderson in the Chair answered nemime contradicente that if he brought him with Godfathers according to the Church of England I need not doubt it But there were but two in the Parish that openly declared themselves to be of his opinion and those two being his familliers are likest to be the Godfathers If the Child have not Right for Infidel Parents sake how can Infidel neighbours called Godfathers give him right L. But the Canon saith that the Godfathers shall be only such as have received the Sacrament M. Alas none are forwarder than these to receive the Sacrament and laugh at it and say they will obey the Church Yet I doubt not but a faithful Parent may be present if he will and may tell the Godfathers in private that his presence shall signifie his devoting act and when the Priest speaketh to the Godfathers he may bow his head whether the Priest will or not to signifie that act of his But this is nothing to the sense of the Church nor to our Assent and Consent to their exclusion of the Parent L. I confess it sounds to me as unnatural But what is your other reason against our sort of Godfathers M. Iâ— My second Reason is that it is a prophanation of this great and sacred Ordinance to invest those in the visible state Christianity and Salvation pretendedly that have no right to such investiture so they have but Godfathers they are to baptize the children of any Jews or Heathens or open enemies to Christ as well as of Christians which is a manifest prophanation L. What is the fault of it M. 1. It supposeth a false Doctrine that Infidel Children are within the Covenant and may be baptized as well as Christians which in the Books aforecited I have fully disproved 2. It is a dangerous adding to God's word and worship 3. It is a deceiving of mens Souls as to childrens state to make them believe that their children dying when baptized are all saved how bad soever the Parents be 4. It is a dreadful belying of God and prophanation of his name if men shall in the name of God pronounce pardon and salvation to those whom he never gave them to L. But God will not punish the Children for their Parents sin M. Not those that see their fathers sins and forsake them and live not as their Parents did and that 's all that the Scripture saith for such But if you will read my two foresaid Disputations for Original sin you will see it fully proved that God punisheth Infants because they are the guilty and corrupt seed of guilty and corrupt Parents Do you believe our Church Articles and yet deny original sin If Infants have no guilt and sin what need have they of Baptism or of a Saviour If they have need of both sure it is for no actual sin done by them was not the World lost for Adam's sin Was not Cain's posterity cursed for his sake Were not all the Infants of the old World and all the Infants of the Sodamites burnt with fire from Heaven and the Infants of the Canaanites and Amalakites c. killed for their Parents sin Did not Christ tell the Jews Mat. 23. that all their Forefathers persecutions should be punished on that Generation The Jews knew this that said His blood be on us and on our Children Our Liturgy saith Remember not Lord our offences nor the offences of our Forefathers c. 2. And yet I tell you that it is for their own sin that the seed of the wicked perish sin is made their own when soul and body were for guilty corrupt Parents made such by themselves I do not say that God imputeth their Parents infidelity to them But this infidelity is the reason of their not being delivered from their own original guilt If Rebels forfeit Life and Estate and so their Children live in beggery and the King offer to restore Father and Children if the Father will thankfully accept his grace If the Parent refuse this his Children will be beggars Not because the King punisheth them for their Fathers fault but because he first deprived himself of the Estate which he should have left them and next because he refused to deliver them If a Father will set the Pox on his children and after refuse a Physician that would cure him and them the Physician doth not punish the children All Scripture and Nature tell the world that it is so deep an interest that Parents have in children as being causes of their very essence by Communication from their own essence and it is so natural a power that Parents have over their children that it should seem no strange thing to Christians or Infidels that God maketh a very great difference between the seed of the faithful and of the Infidels and wicked And its strange that any men should rather lay their title to pardon and salvation upon a meer neighbour or stranger that perhaps is a wicked wretch himself than on the Parents of the child L. But will God save children for their Parents Faith M. If he destroy Infants for Adam's sin do you think that Justice is so much more extensive then Mercy that he will shew no mercy for Parents sake But the case is this Christ the Second Adam hath merited pardon and salvation to be given conditionally to all Not absolutely for then all would be saved What the condition is to the adult we are agreed viz. Faith and Repentance and Dedication to Christ by covenant consent And do you think that Infants pardon and salvation hath no condition If none than all Infants are saved if any condition what is it 1. Is it barely that they be baptized without any right but what all have This is an injurious fiction God never said it And it s an unreasonable imputation on God as if he would
true Servant of Christ nor ever owned intentionally the doing it by others They lament the impositions and would be glad we were united by their removal They would fain have good men restored and they do their best to promote godliness And the Ordinary Lords-Day part of the Liturgy tho' not faultless containeth things true and good and it was a very great and excellent degree of Reformation to make that Book And the most of all its faults are in the By-Offices Baptism Confirmation and Burial the Rubricks which the Lords-Day common Worship is not concerned in nor do the Congregation approve 2. Sin hath brought woeful faultiness into all the Churches on Earth And there are very few on Earth that have not worse Doctrine and a worse Liturgy than ours What then Must we either own or hide all their faults or else disown and renounce them all No neither but disown what is evil and own what is good and separate from none of them further than they separate from Christ. 3. But I pray you answer me a few questions 1. Do you think any Church on Earth to be faultless L. No For all men are faulty but the difference is great M. No doubt it is great But 2. Do you think that you are guilty of all the faults of the Church that you join with L. They say no not of the secret Faults But of the open they say we are partakers by our presence M. Do you think there is any Church on Earth that hath no open Faults And will you join with none L. But they say It is not Faults of Conversation that they mean but in Ministry Doctrine and Worship M. I am sure Conversation Faults are oft alledged for separation But is there any Minister or Church that hath no open Faults in Ministry and Worship L. They mean not small Infirmities such as weak faulty expressions methods disorders dullness c. but gross intolerable Faults M. So then you are come to what I hold I profess that if I see or hear any such Blasphemy Idolatry Heresy or Malignity as renders the Worship abhorred of God I will abhor it and avoid it L. Is none of all that such which you have described M. Nothing in the ordinary Lords-Day Worship which the Congregation must join in Yea I dare not say that their By-offices viz. Baptism it self notwithstanding their kind of Godfathers and Crossing doth frustrate the Sacrament to the capable And the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is very Piously Administred in the words of the Liturgy And if they force men thither or admit them that are unfit that maketh not the words of the Liturgy unfit for the Faithful and their faults in Discipline are none of mine L. But Faults known before hand become mine if I join with such a faulty Worship M. Then you must join with none on Earth You know before hand your own faults that you will be guilty of in prayer Must you therefore forbear to pray Suppose I have a teacher that is an Anabaptist an Antinomian or hath some known tolerable Errour which I know before hand he holds and useth to vend in his Praying and Preaching Is it unlawful to join with such Then Presbyterians Independants and all that differ in judgment must still run away from one another L. But to commit a Fault themselves makes it but their own but if they impose it on me it 's mine if I be present M. You should have said only It 's mine if I commit it If you were commanded to burn a Martyr your presence maketh you not guilty if you do it not nor consent to the doing of it 2. It 's one thing to impose on you the committing of a fault and another thing to impose on you to hear another man commit it 3. And it 's one thing to impose that which you can refuse and another to force you to do it When an Anabaptist or an Antinomian or a Preacher of undecent Expressions or Disorder teacheth in the Assembly he imposeth on them all to hear his Faults but not to approve them or do the like Or if he command them to believe his Errours it is a refuseable imposition and they may choose L. But in the Congregation I must do as they do M. What must you do that is sin Must you say all that the Priest will say Must you believe all his mistakes Must you put up any unlawful request to God L. Yes say they we must pray for Bishops M. I think verily they have need of prayer But they seem to be very humble petitioners themselves when they bid you pray for them but as to a God that worketh great Marvels But muâ—â— you needs own every petition in the Assembly By what Obligation Do you undertake to own every petition that your own Preacher will put up before you know what he will say Yea or if you knew he would speak amiss I have elsewhere told you that one of the zealousest Non-Conformists against Prelacy was old Mr. Humphrey Fâ—n of Coventry and he was wont after every Collect in the Common-Prayer to say Amen aloud except the Prayer for the Bishops And he thought his silence was sufficient notice of his Dissent L. But the broken Responses are ludicrous and intolerable M. Prejudice may make any thing seem so But 1. The Iews Church used such as the Scriptures tell us 2. They are the oldest part of all the Liturgy used by the Church when Holy fervency would not endure to be silenced or restrained to a bare Amen 3. And if it were not that prophane Men use them unreverently and so bring them into disgrace but they were again used fervently by zealous Christians they would seem quite another thing 4. And we do the same thing in effect when all the people sing the Psalm save that the tune keepeth them better in time and order and avoideth the confusion L. But my Friend saith that the Apostle saith with such no not to Eat and from such turn away And you seem to suspect them tho' you only say what you avoid your self of Lying Perjury Persecution c. And is it not a sin to Communicate with such M. 1. I never told you that I took all the Parish-Ministers or People for persecutors No nor for Lyers For when they say that ex animo they hold that nothing in the Liturgy or Ceremonies c. is contrary to the Word of God they speak as they think But it would be a lye in me who am otherwise perswaded And for Perjury it 's one thing grosâ—y to be perjured I charged them not with that And it 's another thing to say or do somewhat that may make a man some way guilty of other mens perjury This is it which affrights me from Conformity but as to them they understand the words of Oaths and Promises and Impositions otherwise than I do as I told you the Earl of Arâ—yle did and I doubt not but