recited Io. Whitgifte Iames was byshop of Ierusalem and in authoritie aboue all other ministers there Bishops at Ierusalem in the Apostles time Eusebius lib. 2. cap. 23. Eusebius so reporteth of him out of Egesippus who liued immediatly after y e Apostles time his wordes out of Egesippus be these Ecclesiam gubernandam post Apostolos Iacobus frater Domini accepit Iames the brother of the Lorde had the gouernment of the Churche after the Apostles Lib. 2. Cap. 23. And in the beginning of that chapter Eusebius speaking of this Iames sayeth thus Cui Hierosolymis ab Apostolis Episcopalis sedes concredita fuerat to whom the Byshops seat at Ierusalem was committed by the Apostles In the first chapter of that booke he sayeth out of Clement that Peter and Iohn after the ascension of Christe Constituerunt Iacobum Iustum Hierosolymorum Episcopum did appoynt Iames the Lib. 2. Ca. 1. Iust Bishop of Hierusalem The same thing do all Ecclesiasticall histories and wryters that make any mention of this matter affirme of him After Iames was Simeon the sonne of Cleop as appoynted Byshop there as the same Eusebius reporteth lib. 3. cap. 11. Idem and lib. 4 cap. 22. Therfore you are greatly deceyued in saying that there was no one ouer the rest at Ierusalem although if there had bene none yet would it not haue serued your turne bicause the Apostles as yet beyng aliue this office of Byshops was lesse néedefull But it is certayne that they placed Byshops in all great and famous Churches after they had planted them as Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiastes and auncient authors do testifie Linus was Byshop of Rome as Eusebius witnesseth Lib. 3. cap. 2. and he liued in Other bishops in the apostles time Eus. Li. 3. cap. 2. 4. the Apostles time Timothie byshop at Ephesus Titus at Creta Dyonisius Areopagit at Athens c. as he also wryteth in the same booke cap. 4. But this thing is so manifest and so well knowne to all that read Ecclesiasticall histories that I am sure they will maruayle at your grosse ouersight in denying the same Wherefore Ieromes distinction standeth Chap. 3. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Lin. 2. But agaynst this distinctiō of S. Ierome I will vse no other reason than that which Ierome vseth in the same epistle to Euagrius Ierome in that Epistle taketh vp very sharply the Archdeacon Ierome speaketh not in that place of an Arch deacon but of a deacon that he preferred himselfe before the Elder and the reason is bycause by the Scripture the Deacon is inferior vnto the Elder Now therfore Ierome himself confessing that by the scripture a Bishop and an Elder are equall by Ieromes owne reason the byshop is to be sharply reprehended bycause he lifteth himselfe aboue the Elder Io. Whitgifte Without doubt you forget your selfe else would you not reason in this manner The Archdeacon is inferior to the elder therefore the byshop is not superior to the elder in any respect I sée no sequele in this reason neither yet any likelyhoode Besides that you vntruely report of Hierome for hée speaketh of a Deacon and not of an Archedeacon But it is your manner so to deale suerly I marueyle that you will vtter so manifest vntruthes But if Hierome should so saye yet is your argument nothing for though an Archedeacon be inferiour to a minister whome you call Elder yet doth not that proue but that there mayé bée degrées among the ministers and that the chéefest of them in authoritie may be called a Bishop as Hierome also in that Epistle declareth And although Hierome confesse that by the scripture Presbyter and Episcopus is all one as in déede they be quoad ministerium yet doth hée acknowledge a superioritie of the Bishop before the minister For besides these places that I haue alleaged in my Aunswere to the Admonition he saith thus in the same Epistle Presbyter Episcopus aliud Ad Euagr. tatis aliud dignitatis est nomen the one is a name of age and the other of dignitie And a litle after In Episcopo Presbyter continetur the Elder or minister is conteyned in th Bishop Therefore no doubte this is Ieromes minde that a Bishop in degrée and dignitie is aboue the minister though he be one the selfe same with him in the office of ministring the word and sacraments and therfore he sayth presbyter continetur in episcopo bicause euerie Bishop is presbyter but euery presbyter is not Bishop Chap. 3. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Lin. 8. But what helpeth it you that there was a Bishop of Alexandria which vrge an Archbishop or what auantageth it you that there was one chief called a Bishop in euery seuerall congregation which wold proue that there ought to be one Bishop chief ouer a thousand congregations What coulde haue bin brought more strong to pull downe the Archbishop out of his throne then that which Ierom faith there when he affirmeth that the Bishop of the obscurest village or hamlet hath as great authoritie and dignitie as the Bishop of Rome Erasmus did see this and sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is * But in the same place speaking in earnest he a firmeth a muche as I r quire testingly that Hierome spake that of the Bishops of his tyme but if the had seene howe the Metropolitanes of our age excell other Bishops he woulde haue spoken otherwise And what could haue ben more fit to haue confuted the large dominion and superioritie of our realme than that that Ierome sayeth when he appointeth the Bishops sea in an vplandish town or in a poore village or hamlet (a) Vntrue declaring therby that in euery town there was a Bishop and that the Bishop that he speaketh of differeth nothing at all from an elder but that the Bishop had the ordeyning of y e ministers whervpon it doth appere which I promised to shew that by this place of Ierome there is neither name of Archbishop nor so much as the shadowe of his authoritie and that the Bishoppes whiche are nowe haue besides the name no similitude almoste with the Bishopes that were in Ieromes tyme. As for his reason ad Luciferanos it is the same which he hath ad Euagr. and to Titus and is alreadie answ red Io. Whitgifte If this be true that you say why haue you then hitherto sought so to deface this worthie writer why did you not in the beginning tell vs that this saying óf Ierome made nothing against you bicause he only speaketh of Pastors in seuerall parishes and not of one to haue charge and gouernment ouer one whole dioces But full Ieromes bishop differeth from an elder in dignitie and rule Hier. in Tit. 1. well knew you the vanitie of this your fansie how vnlyke it is to stande with Ieromes words For in his cōmentaries vpon y e epistle to Titus he sayth that Postque v usquisque
argument is nothing worth nunquà m licet saith Zuinglius nequè in diuinis nequé in Zainglius profanis à facto ad ius argumentari it is neuer lawful neither in diuine nor in prophane matters to argue * à facto ad ius Neyther is the text as you report it for the words do not Of a deede or example to make a lawe signify that Paule would not haue takē him with him vnlesse they had al giuen such testimonie of him neither can there be any such sense truly gathered out of that place And it is manifest that the Apostles receiued Paule into their company at the testimonie and commendation of Barnabas only Act. 9. Chapter 1. the. 11. Diuision Ansvvere of the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. 1. You say that there be admitted into the ministerie of the basest sort of the people I know not what you mean by the basest sort this I am sure of that the ministerie is not now bound to any one tribe as it was to the tribe of Leui in Ieroboams time now none is secluded from that function of any degree state or calling so that those qualities be founde in him whiche in that office are to be required T. C. Page 26. Lin 14. You know they meant by the basest of the people such as gaue but one leape out of the shop into the Church as sodainly are changed out of a seruing mans coate into a ministers cloake making for the most part the ministerie their last refuge c. And seeing that besides the words be playne the dayly experience teacheth it you neede not make it so straunge as though you knew not what they meant Io. Whitgifte I heare you say so but why did they then quote the. 1. Reg. 1 〈◊〉 3 that manifestly proueth the same sense that I haue gathered of their words and that text onely occasioned me so to do Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. I maruell to what purpose the twelfth chapiter of the first booke of kings is here quoted for Ieroboam is there reproued bycause hee tooke the priesthoode from the tribe of Leui to the which only it dyd apperteyne The Papists neuer tooke so great occasion of slaundring the Gospell Offences gyuen to the Pa pists by their contentions at the ignorance of the ministers for they haue of themselues those that be as ignorant and more as they do at your schismes and fond opinions wherwith you disquiet the peace of the Churche and lay stumbling blocks before the weake for the which God will surely call you to accoumpt The second chapter to the Romaynes is here quoted only to painte the margent Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer in silence VVhether Idolatrous sacrificers and Massemongers may aftervvard be ministers of the Gospell Chapter second the first Diuision Admonition The seconde In those days o 〈◊〉 5. 4. 〈◊〉 ▪ 44. 10. 12. 13. Ierem. 23. no Idolatrous sacrificers of Heathenish priests wer appointed to be Preachers of the Gospell but we allow and like well of Popish massemongers me for all seasons King Henries priestes king Edwards Priests Queene Maries Priests who of a truth if Gods word were precisely followed should from the same be vtterly remoued Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. vlt. The place in the fifth chapter of the Hebrues quoted in the margent speaketh nothing of Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenishe Priestes but onely by the example of Aaron proueth that no man ought to intrude himselfe into the office of a Bishop or Priest except he be called of God Lord how dare these men thus wring the scriptures In the 23. of the Prophet Ieremy there is much spokē against false prophets but not one word for any thing that I see to proue that idolatrous sacrificers maye not be admitted to preache the Gospell Io. Whitgifte To this is nothing answered Chap. 2. the second Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. Pag. 40. Sect. 1. The places of the 44. of Ezechiell haue some shew in them for there the Lord commaundeth the Leuites which had committed Idolatrie to be put from their dignitie and not to be receiued into the priestes office but to serue in inferioure ministeries I thinke you will not make this a generall rule to debarre suche from preaching of the Gospell as haue through infirmitie fallen be now with hartie repentance retourned We haue many examples to the contrary Peter forswore his master Christ which was as euill Peters forswearing as sacrificing to Idolls and yet he was not put from his Apostleship We haue diuers examples in the Primitiue Church of suche as by feare being compelled to sacrifice to strange gods after repented and kepte still the office of preaching the Gospell and did moste constantly die in the same T. C. Page 26. Sect. 1. What ought to be generall if this ought not to put the minister that hath bin an Idolater from his ministerie is it not a commaundemente of God and giuen not of one Leuite or two but of all 2. Cha. 23. those that went backe not at one time but at others also when the like occasion was giuen as appeareth in the booke of the kings where all the priests of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places were not suffered to come to the altar in Ierusalem Doth not S. Paule make smaller 1. Tim. 3. causes of deposing from the ministerie than Idolatrie For after he hath described what maner of men the ministers should be and Deacons he addeth And being tried (a) S Paule his words and meaning falsisyed let them execute theyr functions as long as they remayne blamelesse I thinke if so be a man had bin knowne to be an adulterer although he repented him yet none that is well aduised would take him into the ministerie for if S. Paule reiect him that had ij wiues at once which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull and that was common amongst them and had preuayled throughout all the world how much lesse would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie which should be an adulterer and haue another mans wife which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ and which is not so general a mischiefe as that was and suffer him to abide in the ministerie which should committe such wickednesse during his function and likewise of a murtherer now the sinne of Idolatrie is greater and more detestable than any of them in as much as perteyning to the first table it immediatly stayneth Gods honoure and breaketh duetie to him vnto whome we more owe it without all comparison than to any mortall man And if S. Paule in the choise of the widowe to attend vpon the sicke of the Churche which was the lowest office in the Churche requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise honest and holy
y ◠same also was vnder the Bishop of the citie Quod si amplior erat ager qui sub eius episcopatu erat quà m vt sufficere omnibus episcopi munijs vbique possit per ipsum agrum designabantur certis locis presbyteri qui in minoribùs negotijs eius vices obirent eos vocabant borepiscopos quòd per ipsam prouinciam episcopum representabant M. Beza lib. conf cap. 7 calleth the names of Archbishops Bishops c. Holie names for thus he sayth That Pastors in proces of tyme were distinct into Metropolitanes Bishops and those whome they nowe call Curates that is such as be appoynted to euery Parishe was not in the respect of the ministerie of the worde but rather in respecte of iurisdiction and discipline Therfore concerning the office of preaching the word and administring the Sacramentes there is no difference betwixte Archebishops Bishops and Curates for all are bounde to feede their flocke with the same breade and therefore by one common name in the Scriptures they bee called Pastours and Bishops But what impudencie is there in those men meaning the Papistes to vse those holie names and therfore to glorie of the succession of the Apostles and true Bishops In the same chapter he maketh two kynds of degrées vsed in the Papistical Churche the one vnknowne to the Apostles to the primitine church the other taken out of the word of God and from the primitiue Church In this second order he placeth Archebishops Curates Can ns Seniors or Ministers Archedeacons Deanes Subdeacons Clearkes But what should I stand longer in this matter There is not one writer of credit y t denieth this superioritie to haue bin always among the clergie and these degrées to come euen from the best tyme of the Church since the Apostles and so be both most auncient and generall Wherfore I can not but compt suche as denie so manifest a truthe eyther vnlearned and vnskilful persons or else verie wranglers and men desirous of contention A briefe comparison betvvixt the Bishops of our tyme and the Bishops of the primitiue Churche Chap. 8 I Knowe that comparisons be odious neither would I vse them at this tyme but that I am thervnto as it wer compelled by the vncharitable dealing of T. C. who by comparing the Bishops of our time with the Bishops in the olde Churche hath soughte by that meanes to disgrace them if it were possible I may peraduenture in this point sée me to some to flatter but the true iudgement therof I leaue to him that knoweth the secretes of the heart In the meane tyme I will affirme nothing which is not euident to all those that be learned diuines and not ouer ruled with affection My compar ion shal consist in these thrée points Truthe of doctrine Honestie of lise and right vse of externall things Touching the fyrst that is truth of doctrine I shall not néed much to labour For I think T. C. and his adherents wil not denie but that the doctrin taught professed by our Bishops at this day is much more perfect and sounder than it commonly was in any age after the Apostles time For the most part of the auncientest Bishops were deceyued with that grosse opinion of a thousande yeares after the resurrection wherein Euse. lib. 3. cap. 39. 35. the kingdome of Christe should here remaine vpon earth The fautors whereof were called M llenarij Papias who liued in Polycarpus and Ignatius his tyme béeing Bishop of erusalem was the first author of this errour and almost all the moste auncient fat ers were infected with the same Cyprian and the whole Councel of Carthage erred in rebaptisatiō Cyprian himself To. con 1. Lib. epi. 2. ep 3. also was greatly ouerseene in making it a matter so necessarie in the celebration of the Lords Supper to haue water mingled with wyne which was no doubt at y ◠tyme cōmon to moe than to him but the other opinion which he confuteth of vsyng water only is more absurd and yet it had at that tyme patrones among the Bishops Howe greatly were almost all the Bishops learned writers of the greke church yea and the Latines also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merites of inuocation of Sainctes suche lyke Surely you are not able to recken in any age since the Apostles tyme any companie of Bishops that taught helde so sound perfect doctrine in all poynts as the Bishops of England do at this tyme. If you speake of Ceremonies of the syncere administration of the sacraments you shall finde the like difference for compare the cerenionies that Tertullian sapet lib. decoro mil. then to be vsed in the Churche about the Sacraments and otherwise or those that Basile reherseth Lib. de Sancto spi. or suche as we may reade to haue bin in S. Augustins tyme with those that we nowe reteine in this Churche and you can not but acknowledge that therin we are come to a far greater perfection I meane not to stande in particulars I thinke T. C. and his companions wil not contende with me in this poynt for if they doe it is but to maynteyncontention Seing then that in the truthe of doctrine which is the chief and principall point oure Bishops be not only comparable with the olde Bishops but in many degrées to be preferred before them we thinke there is tootoo great iniurie done vnto them and to this doctrine whiche they professe when as they are so odiously compared and so contemptuously intreated by T. C. and his Colleags 2 Touching honestie of life which is the second point I wil not say much I do not think but that therin they may be compared with the old Bishops also and in some points preferred euery age hath some imperfectiōs in it and the best men are most subiect to the slanderous tong Great contention ther was among the Bishops in the Councell of Nice insomuch that euen in the presence of the Emperour they ceased not to libell one against an other What bitternesse and cursing was there betwixt Epiphanius and Chrysostome what affectionate dealyng of Theophilus agaynste the same Chrysostome what iarring betwixt Hierome and Augustine But I wil not prosecute this Men be they neuer so godly yet they be men the cōm n sorte of people when they waxe wearie of the worde of God truely preached then doe they begin to depraue the true and chiefe ministers of the same 3 For the third poynt that is the vse of external things if the ishops nowe haue more land liuing than Bishops had then it is the blessing of God vpon his church and it is commodious for the state and time If any man abuse himself therin let him be reformed let not his fault be made a pretence to cloke a minde desirous to spoyle I sée not how those lands and liuings can be imployed to more bene ite of y e churche cōmoditie of the
T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. As for Elias killing the false Prophetes and our Sauiour Christs whippyng out of the temple it is straunge that M. Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may call for fire from heauen as Elias did and beyng demaunded answere nothyng as our Sauiour did as to followe these actions whiche are moste singular and extraordinarie And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath sette by this a man may proue that the mynisters may be fishers and tente makers bycause Peter and Paule beyng ministers did fishe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a Councell that rather than a minister should haue two benefices he might labour with his handes to supply his wante Tom. 〈◊〉 Nic 〈◊〉 1 withall Io. Whitgifte Yet by these examples especially by the examples of Christ it may appeare that Ecclesiasticall persons haue vsed corporall punishments which you call ciuill I knowe examples make no rule and therfore al your argumentes out of the scriptures alleadged before to proue that the election of ministers ought to be popular receyue the same answere that you giue to me in this place and yet examples if they be not agaynst any commaundement or good order established declare what hath bene and what vppon the lyke occasions may be done but not what of necessitie ought to be doone If you can proue any order of God sette downe that an Ecclesiasticall person may by no meanes exercise any ciuill offices I yelde vnto you if you can not do it then do I alledge no examples tending to the breakyng of any order that God hath set I knowe not why the ministers of the Gospell may not do as Peter Paule did vpon the lyke occasion And therfore your alledging of y e corrupt Councel of Nice which not withstanding you haue not 〈◊〉 alleaged is not necess ie I haue spoken of that Canon before and therfore will not trouble the Reader with it nowe being from this purpose Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. 3. When Sainct Paule willed Tim. that he shoulde not receyue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he did committe nothing lesse than any ciuill office vnto him And M. Doctor himselfe hathe alleadged it before as a thing incident to the office of a Byshop and therefore he doth forget himselfe maruellously now that maketh this a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thinke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgemente that the Church in the time of persecution may make ciuill officers But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to runne ouer his bootes Io. Whitgifte I alleadged it before to proue the superioritie of Bishops ouer other ministers The iur tion of Timothie in some respect ciuill Now I do alledge it to proue that the same byshops may exercise that iurisdiction which you call ciuill for in that the iudgement of such causes were committed vnto him it argueth his superioritie in that there is named accusers and witnesses it declareth a kind of eiuil iurisdiction to the which those words do perteine So that Timothie being an ecclesiastical person had prescribed vnto him that kind of proceeding to iudgement that may be called ciuill Chap. 3. the. 12. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 218. Sect. 1. It pleaseth you to say that it is against Gods worde for Byshops to haue prisons but your margent is very barren of proofes for you haue not quoted one place of scripture to proue it onely you say that Popish Eugenius did first bring them in whiche is a very slender argument to proue them to be against the word of God Did not Peter punish Ananias and Saphira very streightly for their dissimulation Surely farre more greeuously than if he had put them in prison and yet their offence was not against any ordinarie law made in the Churche or common weale But where reade you that Eugenius did first inuent them T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. vlt. And last of all to proue that byshops may haue prisons he citeth Peter which punished Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor muste vnderstande that thys was 〈◊〉 power and was done by vertue of that function whyche Sayncte Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 12. whiche is one of those functions that the Lorde placeth in hys Churche for a tyme. But is thys a good argumente Bycause Saincte Peter punished with the worde therfore the minister may punishe with the sword And bicause Sainct Peter didde so once therfore the Bishop may doe so alwaye And bycause Sainct Peter did that whiche appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate ▪ and whyche no ciuill magistrate by any meanes maye or can doe therfore the minister maye doe that whyche apperteyneth vnto the Ciuill magistrate For if there hadde bin a ciuill magistrate the same coulde not haue punished this faulte of dissimulation whiche was not knowne nor declared it selfe by anye outewarde action So that if this example proue any thing it proueth that the minister may doe that no man may doe but the Lorde onely whyche is to punishe faultes that are hidde and vnknowne If this bee ignorance it is very grosse and if it be against knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determined with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor his outcryes and declamations and if I shoulde haue vsed them as often as he giueth occasion there woulde be no ende of writing The Lorde giue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Io. Whitgifte I vse this example of Peter to shewe that is not agaynst Gods worde for the ministers Ministers may vse temporall punishment of the Gospell to punishe any by imprisonmente For Peter béeing a minister of the Gospell dyd punyshe with death whiche is muche more than to imprison and as Peter did this lawfully by an extraordinarie power so maye the ministers of the woorde punishe by imprisonmente whiche is a farre lesse kynde of punishment beyng lawfully therevnto authorised by the ciuill Magistrate accordyng to the orders of the common wealth and state of the Churche Therfore my reason is this Peter punished with temporall punishement being a minister of the worde and he dyd nothing repugnant to his vocation therfore it is not repugnant to the office of a minister of the worde to punishe with temporall punishment Agayne Peter punished with death therfore the minister maye punishe with imprisonment I speake de facto of the deede done not de modo of the maner of doing is And I doubte not but that séeing it was lawfull for Peter to kill by an especiall and extraordinarie power so it may be lawfull for the minister of the word to imprison by an vsuall and ordinarie power And so are all your
proue this to be true by the manyfest testimonies of the Scripture it selfe and also by sundrie other bothe auncient and late wryters but bicause I thinke it hathe but ouerslipped you and that vpon better aduise you will reforme it therfore I will cease to deale further in it vntill I vnderstande more of your meaning My conclusion touching Argumentes negatiue ab authoritate as I vnderstande it Argumentes ab authoritate negatiue and haue expounded it in the wordes following is very true and muste of necessitie be so You saye that when the question is of the authoritie of a man it holdeth neither affirmatiuely nor negatiuely Wherein you shewe your selfe not to be so skilfull in that the ignorance whereof you do so often in your booke obiecte vnto me for not in Aristotle An arg ent ab authoritate holdeth affirmatiuely onely lib. 3. Top. and lib. 2. Rhet. ad Theod. but in euery halfe penie Logike as you terme them the place ab authoritate is expressed and the argumentes taken oute of the same sayde to holde affirmatiuely and not otherwyse the rule whereof is thys Vnicuique in sua arte perito credendum est It is a good argument to saye that it is true bicause 1. Top. Cap. 8. Aristotle or Plato sayde it if it be of any thing pertayning to that Arte wherein Aristotle or Plato were cunning and expert Whether all things pertayning to the outwarde forme of the Churche be particularly expressed or commaunded in the Scripture or no is the question that we haue nowe in controuersie that God coulde doo it and therefore hathe done it is no good reason no more than it is for the reall presence in the Sacrament Affirmatiuely the argument is alwayes good of the authoritie of the Scripture as God hathe there commaunded it to be done therefore it muste be done Or the Scripture affirmeth it to be so Ergo it is so But negatiuely it holdeth not excepte in matters of saluation and damnation whiche is not my opinion onely but the opinion of the best interpreters Zuinglius in Elencho contra Catabaptist reproueth them Zuinglius in Elench for reasoning on this sorte his wordes be these You shall finde no way to escape for fondly you reason à factis exemplis negatiuely yea à non factis non exemplis for what other reason vse you than this we reade not that the Apostles baptized infants Ergo they are not to be baptized The examples that you vse in the. 7. of Ierem. verse 31. 32. and. 30. of Esay ver 2. The places which T. C. quoteth proue not his purpose to proue that in externall and indifferent matters we may reason negatiuely of the authoritie of the Scriptures are farre fetched and nothing to your purpose For that whiche the Prophet Ieremie speaketh of is a matter of great importance euen moste horrible and cruell sacrifices wherein they burnte their sonnes and daughters Iere. 7. ver 31. Whiche they were not only not commaunded to doo but expressely forbidden as it appeareth in the. 18. of Leuiti verse 21. and the. 20. of Leuiti verse 3. and the. 18. of Deutero verse 10. Nowe to reason thus God hathe commaunded that you shall not giue your children to be offered to Moloche and he hathe not giuen you any commaundement to the contrarie therefore you oughte not to haue offered them is affirmatiue not negatiue althoughe in this case béeing a matter of substance and of saluation or damnation for to kill and murther is of that nature a negatiue argument is very strong The Prophet Esay reproueth the Iewes for vsing their Esa. 30. ver 2. owne aduise séeking helpe of the Egyptians in the time of their aduersitie and not of the Lorde Whiche they dyd bothe contrarie to their owne promise and also contrarie to the commaundement of God Deutero 17. verse 16. But what is this to proue that we may reason negatiuely of the authoritie of the Scriptures in matters of rites and ceremonies and other indifferent things You accuse me for not alleadging of Scriptures better it were to alleadge none than thus to alleage them to no purpose or rather to abuse them Chapter 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21. Sect. 1. 2. 3. It is most true that nothing ought to be tollerated in the Churche as necessarie vnto saluation or as an article of faythe excepte Wherein the scripture is sufficient it be expresly contayned in the worde of God or may manyfestly thereof be gathered and therefore we vtterly condemne and reiecte Transubstantiation the Sacrifice of the Masse the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome worshipping of Images c. And in this case an argumente taken ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè is most strong As for example It is not to be founde in Scripture that the Bishop of Rome oughte to be the head of the Churche and therfore it is not necessarie to saluation to beleeue that he ought to be the head of the Church c. It is also true that nothing in ceremonies order discipline or gouernment in the Church is to be suffred beyng against the worde of God And therefore we reiecte all ceremonies wherein there is any opinion to saluation worshipping of God or merite As creeping to the crosse holy bread holywater holycandle c. T. C. Pag. 14. Lin. 3. But you say that in matters of faith and necessarie to saluation it holdeth which things you oppose after and set against matters of ceremonies orders discipline gouernment (*) As thoughe i were inough for you to say on such sillie proofes as thoughe matters of discipline and kinde of gouernment were not matters necessarie to saluation and of faith (a) arg ex solis particularibus The case which you put whither the Bishop of Rome be head of the Church is a matter that concerneth the gouernment and the kinde of gouernment of the Churche and the same is a matter that toucheth faith and that standeth vpon our saluation Excommunication and other censures of the Church which are forerunners vnto excommunication are matters of discipline and the same are also of faith and of saluation The sacramentes of the Lordes Supper and of baptisme are ceremonies and are matters of faith and necessarie to saluation And therefore you which distinguishe betwene these and say that the former that is matters of faith and necessary to saluation may not be tolerated in the Churche vnlesse they be expressely contained in the worde of God or manifestly gathered But that this later which are ceremonies order discipline gouernment in the Churche may not be receyued against the worde of God and consequently receyued if there be no worde against thē although there be none for them you I say distinguishing or deuiding after this sorte doe proue your selfe to be as euill a deuider as you shewed your selfe before an expounder for this is to breake in pieces and
not to deuide Io. Whitgifte That matters of ceremonies discipline and kinde of gouernment be matters necessarie vnto saluation is a doctrine strange and vnheard of to me wherof I will by and by speake more at large after I haue in a word or two answered your obiections of the Byshop of Rome and of the sacraments of Baptisme and the Lordes Supper for you saye The case which I put whither the Bishop of Rome be head of the Church is a matter that concerneth the gouernment and the kinde of gouernment of the Churche and the same is a matter that toucheth faith and that standeth vpon saluation Wherevpon bylike you woulde conclude that matters of gouernment and kinde of gouernment are matters necessarie to saluation Surely I put no such case but I put such an example to proue that we maye reason ab authoritate scripturae negatiuè for this is a good argument we finde it not in Scripture that the Bishop of Rome ought to be the head of the Churche Ergo it is not necessarie to saluation to beléeue that the Bishop of Rome is the head of the Church the which thing notwithstanding the Papistes doe affirme for they say thus Subesse Romano pontifici omni animae est de necessitate salutis to be subiecte to the Byshop of Rome is of necessitie of saluation to all men Now sir my reason is framed thus against them whatsoeuer is necessarie to saluation is contained in the Scriptures but that she Pope shoulde be the head of the Churche is not conteyned in the Scriptures Therefore it is not necessarie to saluation But you reason cleane contrarie for you conclude thus whether the Pope be the head of the Churche is a matter of gouernment and of the kinde of gouernment but the Papistes say for that I take to be your meaning that it is a matter necessary vnto saluation that the Pope should be the head of the Church Ergo matters of gouernment and kinde of gouernment are necessarie vnto saluation Thus you sée howe popishely with a popishe reason you make a verie popishe conclusion Certainely no gouernment is to be brought into the Church that is directly against the word of God as the Popes is which doth not onely vsurpe the office and authoritie of kings and Princes but of Christe also and commaundeth things contrarie to faith and to the manifest worde of God wherefore his authoritie is wicked and damnable but it doth not therfore followe to make this a generall rule that the gouernment of the Churche or kinde of gouernment is necessarie to saluation Doe you not knowe of what force an argument is ex solis particularibus To proue that Ceremonies are necessarie to saluation you reason thus The Sacraments of the Lordes Supper and of baptisme are ceremonies and are matters of fayth and necessarie to saluation Ergo c. Undoubtedly you are as euill a reasoner as I am either an expounder or deuider bycause the Supper of the Lord and Baptisme be matters of saluation therefore are all ceremonyes matters of saluation wyll you ex solis particularibus conclude an vniuersall proposition furthermore you knowe that the Supper and Baptisme be not onely Ceremonyes but also Sacramentes instituted and commaunded by Christ hauyng promyses of saluation annexed vnto them and so haue not other ceremonies And you speake too basely of them when you cal them ceremonyes not shewing how or in what sorte they may be so called It is the nexte waye to bryng the Sacramentes into contempte and it argueth that you haue not so reuerent an opinion of them as you ought to haue Therefore the reader muste vnderstande that there be two kyndes of Ceremonyes Two kinds of ceremonies the one substantiall the other accidentall substantiall Ceremonyes I call Substantiall ceremonies those which be de substantia Religionis of the substance of Religion and commaunded in the worde of God as necessarie and haue promyses annexed vnto them as the Supper of the Lorde and Baptisme Accidentall I call suche as maye be done or Accidentall ceremonies vndone as order requireth and altered accordyng to tyme place person and other circumstances wythoute any opinion of Iustification necessitie or worship in the same pertayning onely to externall comelynesse order decencie c. of the whiche kynde these be that the Apostle Saint Paule mentioneth 1. Cor. 11. that men shoulde 1. Cor. 11. praye bareheaded and not women and suche lyke as I haue in my answere to the Admonition more particularly declared Such Ceremonyes I denie to be matters of Fol. 15. Sect. 5. saluation and in suche I saye as you also afterwardes confesse the Churche hath authoritie to appoynt from tyme to tyme as shall be thoughte expedient thoughe the same Ceremonyes be not expressed in the worde of God so that my diuision holdeth and is stronger than you shall be able to oūerthrowe wyth all the force you haue But nowe to your Paradox you saye that matters of discipline and kynde of gouernmente Matters of y e kinde of gouernment and discipline are not necessarie to saluation Two kindes of gouernmēt of the church are matters necessarie to saluation and of fayth And you adde that excommunication and other censures of the Church whych are forerunners vnto excommunication are matters of discipline and the same are also of fayth and of saluation There are two kyndes of gouernment in the Churche the one inuisible the other visible the one spirituall the other externall The inuisible and spirituall gouernment of the Churche is when God by hys spirite gyftes and Ministerie of hys worde dothe gouerne it by ruling in the heartes and consciences of men and directing them in all things necessarie to euerlasting lyfe thys kynde of gouernmente in déede is necessarie to saluation and it is in the Churche of the electe onely The visible and externall gouernment is that whiche is executed by man and consisteth of externall discipline and visible Ceremonyes practised in that Churche and ouer that Churche that contayneth in it bothe good and euyll which is vsually called the visible Churche of Chryst and compared by Christe to a fielde wherein bothe good seedes and tares Math. 13. were sowen and to a nette that gathered of all kynde of fyshes If you meane this kynde of gouernment then muste I aske you thys question whyther your meanyng is that to haue a gouernmente is necessarye to saluation Or to haue some one certayne forme and kynde of gouernmente not to be altered in respecte of time persons or place Lykewise woulde I knowe of you what you meane by necessarye vnto saluation Whyther you meane suche thyngs wythoute the whiche we can not be saued or suche thyngs onely as be necessarie or ordinarie helpes vnto saluation for you knowe that this worde necessarye signifyeth eyther that wythout Diuerse signification of the word necessarie the which a thing can not be or that wythout the which it can not so
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
it hath as euill successe here as in other places for when it is a great fault in diuiding to haue either too muche or too little you fault in bothe for where as you say they adde which teache or decree c. Besides that you leaue out whiche Moses mente you forget also that whiche your selfe had sayde whiche had placed adding too not onely in teaching and decreeing but in thinking or beleeuing And wheras you make foure parts of your diuision the three last are found to be all vnder the first member which is to make things of fayth and ceremonies contrarie to the worde and so your diuision is not onely faultie but no diuision at all * All this is spoken in contempt of the person not in defense of the cause The which thing I could haue easily forgiuen you and passed by as a thing not very commendable to trauell to shew the pouertie of those things which do sufficiently of themselues as it were proclayme their owne shame but that it grieued me to see a booke lengthened with first seconde thirde last as though euery one of them conteyned some notable newe matter which needed an Oyes before it to stirre vp the attention of the reader when there is nothing but a many of words without matter as it were a sort of fayre emptie apothecaries boxes without any stuffe in them And for that you are so harde with other men for their Logike I will desire the reader to pardon me if I pursue these things more narrowlier than some peraduenture will like of or I my selfe delight in And so for any definition or diuision that I can perceiue it standeth fast that nothing is to be done in the Church of God but by his cōmandement and word directing the s me It is true in deede if they be not agaynst the worde of God and profitable for the Churche they are to be receyued as those things which God by the Churche dothe commaunde and as grounded of the worde of God But there is the question and therefore you taking this as a thing graunted alwayes do alwayes fall into that whiche you charge other with of the failacion of Petitio principij Io. Whitgifte There is neither definition nor diuision here that can please you but what remedy when you iestes be vttered and you a little sported your selfe the matter commeth to trial there appeareth very slēder corrections I haue after my rude simple maner declared what it is to adde to the word of God or to take from it and haue Two contraties may be defined with one differēce not sought for any exacte definition But yet by your leaue two contraries may be defined by one generall difference when we talke of those things which be common to them bothe and do not séeke to separate them from among them selues but from all other thinges that be not of the same kinde So is vertue and vyce by this difference sensìm acquiri sensìm amitti separated from al other that be not sub habitu As Homo and brutum by this difference sensibile be separated from all other creatures that be not vnder Animal It is a common rule that the definition of that whiche is called genus doth agrée to euery part member vnder it which we call species be they contrarie repugnant or otherwise disagréeing the one from the other howsoeuer Therfore declaring generally what it is to adde to the worde or to take from the worde I say it is to thinke otherwise or to teache otherwise of God than he hath in his worde reuealed Whiche in genere dothe aptly expounde them bothe For as well he that addeth to the worde as he that taketh from the worde doth thinke or teach of God otherwise than he hath in his worde reuealed So you sée that a man of small dexteritie in defining may do that whiche you thought Zeno himselfe could not performe But what néeded all this pastime of yours do I not immediatly after seuerally declare both what it is to adde to the worde what also to take from it are you able to proue that the expositions whiche I set downe be not true can you better them Will you still more and more declare your quarell to be rather agaynst the person than the cause You saye I leaue oute that whiche Moyses especially mente to comprehende which is not to doe more nor to doe lesse than hee hathe commaunded Surely if you were disposed to deale modestly and sincerely as it behoueth you in so weightie a matter you woulde not thus wittingly and willingly séeke occasion of quarelling whether that whiche you saye is lefte oute muste not of recessitie be included in those words that I haue spoken of adding to the worde and taking from it or no I leaue to the indifferent reader to consider Touching my diuision I say as I did of the definition I am not curious in diuiding but I playnely and after my rude manner tell howe many wayes a man may adde to the worde of God Neyther dothe he alwayes diuide that sheweth howe many wayes a thing maye be done and yet is there nothing lefte oute necessarie to be expressed For this that you speake of thinking and beleeuing is included in the third kinde of adding to the worde The three laste kyndes are not founde to be vnder the fyrst ▪ for it is not all one to teache or decree any thing contrarie to the worde to make anye thyng necessarie to saluation not contayned in the worde to put any religion or opinion of merite in any thing that men them selues haue inuented besides the worde and to forbyd that as vnlawfull which God doth not forbid In the firste kinde is inuocation of Sainctes worshipping of Images c. whiche be directly contrarie to the expresse worde of God In the seconde is that decrée of Pope Boniface whiche maketh it necessarie to saluation to be subiecte to the Byshop of Rome and suche lyke whereof there is no mention in the Scriptures In the thirde kinde are all outwarde Ceremonies inuented by man wherein any opinion of worshipping or merite is put as holy breade holy water and other Ceremonies of that sorte In the laste parte is the decrée of Pope Nicholas Dist. 22. omnes where it is decréed that he whiche infringeth the priuiledges of the Churche of Rome is an heretike And in this sorte doe those adde also to the worde which condemne the vse of things indifferent as vnlawful for in so doing they make that sinne which the word of God dothe not make sinne Agayne that there is a great difference in the partes of my diuision and that they are not confounded you might haue perceyued if it hadde pleased you with better aduyse to haue weighed them for things may be decréed contrarie to the worde and yet not made necessarie vnto saluation Things may be made as necessarie to saluation which of them selues are not contrarie
lawes for himselfe but for vs mighte call S. Peter also to that function which had thrice denyed him But as it is not lawfull for vs to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paule by admitting those which are new conuerted hauing a contrary precepte giuen that no * new plant or greene 1. Tim. 3. Christian should be taken to y e Ministerie So is it not lawfull also to follow that example of our Sauiour Christ the contrarie beyng commaunded as I haue before alleaged For albeit the examples of our Sauiour Christ be to be followed of vs yet if there be commaundtmentes generall to the contrarie then we must know that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way as it were the common caussie of the commaundement rather than an outpath of the example Io. Whitgifte Peter hauing before bragged of his constancie lately admonished by his Maister Christ almost euē in y e presence of his master wittingly willingly denyed not once but thrice yea bitterly forswore him which fault no doubt was as gréeuous as any kind of Idolatrie and therfore if you stand with me in that matter neuer so long you can not greatly trouble me for the circumstances beyng considered there is nothing to exeuse Peters denyall As Christ in the heate of Paules persecution dyd choose him to be an Apostle and called Peter also to that function after he had thrice denyed him euen so doth he still continue his mercie neither is it one whit streightened and these examples hath he set before vs that we should at no time dispaire of his mercy and goodnesse so saith S. Paule 1. Tim. 1. Verùm ideò misericordiam consecutus sum c. Notwithstanding for this cause was I 1. Tim. 1. receiued to mercie that Iesus Christ should first shewe on me al long suffering vnto the example of them which shall in time to come beleeue in him vnto eternall lyfe Although these examples of our sauiour Christ are not at all times in al poyntes to be followed yet doe they sufficiently declare that no man for any crime is to be secluded from any lawfull vocation if he repent him and become a new man And there be no generall commaundements contrarie herevnto but this doctrine is consonant to the whole course of the Gospell Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 27. Sect. 2. I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisine to be Bishop of Millaine for the greate T. C. picketh a quarrell to de praue Ambrose out of place and vniustly estimation and credite he had amongst the people but besides that I haue shewed that such things are vnlawfull being forbidden the errors corrupt expounding of scriptures which are found in his works declare that it had bene more safe for the Church if by studie of the scriptures he had firste bene a scholer of diuinitie or euer he had bene made Doctor Io. Whitgifte You néeded not to haue wyped away the example of Ambrose with so much disgracing of him being so worthy a man and so learned a father for thoughe he were not christened when he was chosen Bishop yet had he long before that time professed the name of Christ and was soundly grounded in Religion for in those dayes many did long differre the time of Baptisme after the time of their conuersion And S. Paule 1. Tim. 3. by his greene Christian as you terme him doth vnderstande such as be newly conuerted Ambrose was a man of notable learning and singularly commended in all histories that make any mention of him his errors be not so many nor his expositions so simple that you should so contemptuously write of him Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 27. Sect. 2. here maye be more examples shewed out of that which you call the Primitiue Church to the 〈◊〉 of that which you say For whē they vsed oftentimes against those that had so faine such seueritie in deede extreme and excessiue that they were neuer after vntill their deathes admitted to the Lords table I leaue to you to thinke whether they woulde then suffer any suche to execute the function of the ministerie Besides that S. Cyprian hathe also a speciall treatise of this that those that haue sacrificed to Idols should not be permitted any more to minister in the Church in the first booke of his Epist. Epistle vij Io. Whitgifte It appeareth in that 7. Epistle of Cyprian that he ment of such as after they had sacrificed to Idols toke their ministerie againe vpon them without any signification or shewe of repentance but rather iustifying or at the least excusing their former facte And that this was Cypriās meaning it may be gathered by these words in the same Cypri lib. Epist. 7. Epistle which he speaketh to the people to whom he writ touching Fortunatianus who hauing sacrificed to Idols would haue againe resumed his ministerie Ergo contumaces deum non timentes ab ecclesia in totum recedentes nemo comitetur Quòd si quis impatiens fuerit ad deprecandum dominum qui offensus est nobis obtemperare noluerit sed desperatos perditos secutus fuerit sibi imputabit cum iudicij dies venerit VVherfore let no man kepe companie with those which are stubborne not fearing God wholy depart from the Church But if any will not aske forgiuenesse at the Lord which is offended and will not obey vs but will needes followe them which are disperate and paste hope he shall laye the blame on none but on him selfe at the day of iudgement Wherby it is plaine that Cypriā ment such as had wholy departed from the Church and were desperate in wickednesse It is manifest that in Cyprians time those that did offend in such crimes afterwardes repented were appointed a time of publique repentance according to the qualitie of the fault committed and vntill that time was expired they were not admitted vnto the Lordes table except onely at the poynt of death But I graunt that there was extreme seueritie in Cyprians time shewed to suche as had fallen in the time of pesecution and that it euidently appeareth in other of his Epistles that such were no more admitted to the ministerie But this law was made by Cyprian and others as it is euident Lib. 2. Epist. 1. in that Councell of Carthage where it was also concluded that such as were baptized of heretikes should be rebaptized and therfore of the lesse force séeing that that whole Councell is for inst causes reiected Chap. 2. the sixte Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. 2. 3. I pray you what say you to M. Luther Bucer Cranmer Latimer Ridley c. were not al these sometimes Massemongers and yet singular and notable instrumentes of promoting the Gospell and preaching the same wherof many haue giuen testimonie by sheding their bloud And by whose Ministerie especially hathe the Gospell bene published and is as yet in this
sayth Vi enim eligendi pontificis potestatem ad se tunc rapiebant Romani For the Romaines then tooke by force vnto them selues power to choose their Bishop The second place of Platina argueth the vndiscretenesse of the people both in placing and displacing their Bishop and the authoritie of the Emperour in taking this authoritie of placing and displacing from them when they doe abuse it for here hée put out Benet whom they had chosen placed Leo whom they had displaced wherby it appeareth that there was not then any one suche prescripte forme of electing the Bishop of Rome but that it was in the authoritie of the Emperour to abrogate alter or chaunge it All this is nothing to the improuing of my assertion for I denie not but that the people had interest in elections of Bishops in diuers places and especially in the Church of Rome a long tyme But this dothe not proue that there is any prescript rule in Scripture for the election of ministers whiche maye not be altered and chaunged from tyme to tyme as shall be moste conuenient for the presente state of the Churche naye whatsoeuer ye haue hitherto sayde proueth the contrarie Platina doth not write that Otho coufessed that the election of the Byshop of 〈◊〉 did not perteyne vnto him you should haue a care to report the words of the author truly it is one thing to say that the election of the Byshop perteyneth to the Cleargie and people another thing to say that it perteyned not to him for it might perteine to them al. And the same Platina in the life of Io. 13. saithe that after Iohn was condemned by a councell and therefore fled away the Emperoure Otho at the request of the Cleargie did create Leo Byshop of Rome his words are these Hanc ob causam Otho persuadente Platina in 〈◊〉 ta Ioan ▪ 13 clero Leonem Romanum ciuem Lateranensis ecclesiae Scriniarium Pontificem creat For thys cause Otho by the perswasion of the Cleargie chooseth Leo a Citizen of Rome and keper of the monuments of the Church of Laterane to be Byshop He further in that place declareth how the people after the Emperours departure deposed Leo and placed Benet and how the Emperoure by force compelled them to place Leo agayne That Otho the Emperoure did take this graunt at the Byshops hands that the election of the Byshop should be in him and not in the people M. Bale testifyeth in manifest words in the life of Leo. 8. where he saith thus After he tooke from the Cleargie and people of Rome the power of choosing their Byshop whiche Carolus Magnus had gyuen Bale in vita Leon. 8. vnto them before and by a Synodall decree did commit the same to Otho the Emperoure for the auoyding of seditions whiche were wont to be in these elections and Otho receyuing this graunt thankfully that he mighte shewe himselfe agayne beneficiall towards the Sea of Rome restored all things which Constantine is feyned to haue giuen c. In the which words also it is to be noted y t this libertie of choosing their Byshop was granted vnto the people and Cleargie of Rome by Carolus Magnus the which not only M. Bale testifyeth in this place but M. Barnes also in these words Leo the. 8. vnderstanding the wickednesse of the Romaines in obtruding their friends to the Church by bribes threatnings and other wicked deuises did restore the interest of choosing the Byshop to Otho the Emperoure Whereof I also conclude that it is in the power of the ciuill magistrate to take order for elections of ministers and that the consent of the people is not of any necessitie required therevnto Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Page 36. Sect. 6. And if the Emperours permitted the election of the Byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suretie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome whiche with their Byshops did oftentimes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both cities and townes they did not denie the elections of ministers to the people besides that certaine of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperours were and liued betwene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynte of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hitherto this libertie was not gone out of y e Church albeit the Pop which brought in all tyrannie and went about to take all libertie from the Churches was now on horse back and had placed himselfe in that Antichristian seate Io. Whitgifte In that the Emperours did but permitte such elections to the people it is manifest that the interest was in them else why should they be said to haue permitted it In déed true it is that the Emperours so long did remitte of their interest in suche elections that afterwards when they would haue claymed their right therein they coulde not obteyne it but by violence were shut from all as the histories manifestly deelare Hitherto you haue proued nothing in question neyther haue you reasoned ad I de m T. C. hath not reason ad idem for you shoulde either haue proued that the election of ministers dothe of necessitie perteyne to the people or that the same manner of electing is conueniente for thys Church of England in this time and state both which I haue improued and do still vtterly denie neyther dothe any thing that you haue alleadged proue eyther of them Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. 3. Therefore this diuersitie of the state of the Church requireth a diue s kinde of gouernmente and another kinde of ordeyning ministers For this cause in Concilio Laodicensi whiche was Anno. 334. it was Concil Laodic decreed that the election of ministers shoulde not be permitted to the people T. C. Page 37. Sect. 1. 2. Those that write the Centuries (a) This is vntrue as shall appeare suspect this canon and doubt whether it be a bastard or no considering the practise of the Church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayd that this order of choosing the minister by voyces of the Church was (b) An vntruth for I said not so but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution And the firste time you can alleadge this libertie to be taken away was in the. 334. yeare of our Lord which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to reygne I say at the least bycause there be good authors that say that this councell of Laodicea was holdē Anno. 338. after the death of Ioninian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines reygne and this councell Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder (c) The Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines time by the space of 13. yeares for
Ministers in euery citie heare in what lawe the order of ecclesiasticall authoritie dothe consist And a little after speaking also of Bishops VVhereby it is manyfest that those whiche contemning the Apostles rule will not bestowe the ecclesiasticall degree vpon any for desert but for fauour to doe agaynst Christe c. Hierome héere taketh the Bishop onely to haue authoritie to ordeyne and appoynt Ministers And Chrysostome vpon the same place sayth that Paule dyd Chrysost. in 1. Tit. those things himselfe that required greatest labor and trauell but lefte other things of honour and commendation to Titus as ordeyning of Bishops So sayth Theophilact likewise Thus then you sée howe euidently bothe those places of scripture and also these auncient fathers do ouerthrow that saying of the Admonition that the right of ordering ministers dothe at no hand apperteyne to a Bishop And how manifestly also the same haue iustified that whiche I haue sayde that is that Bishops haue authoritie to admit ministers for these be my very words Nowe how corruptly you haue dealt with me héere in this place I would wishe The corrupte dealing of T. C. the indifferent Reader to consider where I saye that Bishops haue authoritie to admit ministers you make me to say that the election of ministers by one man was in y e Apostles time And where I say y t these words of Paul to Timothie manus citò ne cui imponas c. be an admonition to Timothie that he oughte to be circumspect in appoynting of ministers you make the reader beléeue that I say that it is a commaundement giuen by Paule to Timothie that the Bishop onely shoulde choose the minister And where I say that Hierome and others do expounde these wordes to Titus vt constituas oppidatim c. of the authoritie that Titus had in placing ministers in euery Churche you report them as thoughe I shoulde saye that Hierome proueth the righte of the election of the minister to belong to the Bishop onely where I haue ordeyning there you haue election And where I saye belongeth to the Bishop there say you belongeth to the Bishop onely Is this your sinceritie dare you accuse other men of corruption béeing guiltie of it your selfe almoste in euery lyne True it is that I am persuaded that bothe Timothie and Titus and consequently other Bishops haue authoritie to ordeyne and appoynt ministers alone which I haue also partly proued before and shall do partly hereafter as I haue occasion But yet all men that be not blinde may sée that I haue affirmed no suche thing in that part of my answere to the Admonition I haue always greatly estéemed the iudgemēts opinions of learned men howsoeuer you are persuaded of your own excellencie and dexteritie of wit yet am I content to submit my selfe to the opinions of other to whome I am in no respect comparable and then do I thinke my selfe to haue reason sufficient when I haue good authoritie of the scriptures and of learned writers Aristotle spake as a heathenish Philosopher of such prophane sciences as be grounded not vpon authoritie but vpon naturall and humaine reason but that that we professe is of an other nature for it is grounded vpon authoritie and for the authority sake to be beléeued what reason soeuer there is to the contrarie And surely I maruell what you meane so often to quarell with me for the alleadging of the authoritie of learned writers except it be bicause you haue not red so many your selfe or else that you would séeme your selfe to be the Author inuentor of those reasons which you haue borrowed of them which in déede is to winne the prayse of a good wit vnto your selfe and to robbe the learned writers of their iust commendation Therfore to answere you briefly in this matter I thinke authoritie in diuine matters to be the best Authority the best proofe in diuine matters reason whether it be of the scriptures thēselues or of such learned men as do rightly interpret y e same And I déeme it to be much more honestie in vsing their authorities to expresse their names that they may haue their iust cōmendation and the matter the more credite than vsing their authorities suppressing their names vaynely arrogantly to vsurpe as my owne that which I haue borrowed out of them I know Master Caluines interpretation vpon that place likewise what Musculus sayth of the same in his Common places titu de electione ministrorum but the words of the texte be playne And forasmuche as you make a distinction betwixte electing and ordeyning and saye that electing perteyneth to the people and ordeyning to the Bishop Pag. 41. lin 4. Likewise that the Apostle in this place speaketh of ordeining and not of electing you muste of necessitie confesse that by saying sicut tibi ordinaram as I appoynted Tit. 1. thee he meaneth onely imposition of handes and prayer as thoughe he shoulde say vt constituas opidatìm presbyteros suut tibi ordinaram sci per impositionem manuum orationem That thou shouldest ordeyne Ministers in euery citie as I appoynted thee that is to saye by laying on of handes and by prayer And thus doe learned Interpreters also expounde this place Neither is Musculus his meaning muche otherwyse as it may appeare to those that well consider his wordes especially if your distinction betwixt electing ordeyning holde and if Paule speake héere of ordeyning onely for in ordeining of Ministers the Apostles vsed laying on of handes as a ceremonie they prayed also Act. 14. and fasted But if you will haue the Apostle héere to speake of electing also then dothe he expounde him selfe when he sayth Si quis est inculpatus c. If any by vnreprouable Tit. 1. the husbande of one wyfe c. For howe can you otherwise make those wordes aptly to hang togither No doubt the Apostle gaue Titus an especial charge in ordeyning of Ministers to haue respect vnto these qualities of whiche charge he putteth him in minde when he sayth that he lefte him at Creta to ordeyne Ministers in euery citie as he appoynted him that is suche as be vnreprouable c. I knowe there be some that expounde this place thus also that for as muche as Paule when he lefte Titus in Creta did will him to ordeyne Ministers in euery citie nowe he putteth him in minde of the same by his letters and willeth him to doe according to his appoyntment that is to place Ministers in euery citie and surely this interpretation hathe good reason for béeing absent we commonly vse to put them in minde by letters to whome we haue committed any thing to be done of such things as we willed them to do when we were present with them I reuerence Master Caluin as a singular man and worthy instrument in Christes Churche but I am not so wholly addicted vnto him that I will contemne other mens iudgements that in
borrowed this worde excell so haue you borrowed also this word onely for the words of Hierome be these quid enim facit excepta ordinatione Hie. ad Euag. Episcopus quod presbyter non facit VVhat dothe a Bishop whiche a Minister dothe not excepte ordination Whereby he manyfestly affirmeth as muche as I in this place require that is that the right of ordering Ministers doth apperteyne to the Bishop The same also Chrysostome in the lyke wordes wryteth in 1. Ti. 3. Touching the difference betwixt a Bishop and a common minister of the superioritie of Bishops and of their iurisdiction for auoyding of confusion where vnto you héere prouoke me I will speake when I come to that part of this booke You saye that this is an euill argument The Bishop hath the ordeyning of the Minister Election and ordinatio may concurre in one person Ergo he hath the election of him c. I thinke it is a very good argument and that you are greatly deceyued when you saye election and ordination can not concurre in one and the selfe same person althoughe they maye be distinguished the one from the other Had not the Master of the Colledge interest in the electing of you when you were chosen to be fellow and dyd he not also admitte you was there not then bothe election and admission in one man And is not the lyke in other degrées of learning Hathe not he authoritie to electe that hathe authoritie to admitte that is to ordeyne or haue you an example of any lawfully placed in the ministerie without the election and admission of the Bishop Haue you forgotten what you alleaged T. C. forgetteth him selie ▪ before out of the Councell of Carthage the Councell of Toledo c. where it is sufficiently expressed that the election of Ministers dothe aswell perteyne to the Bishops as it dothe to the people And doe not all the examples and places of scripture that you haue alleadged for your purpose verifie the same Wherefore thoughe election and ordination so differ the one from the other that the one can not be sayde to be the other yet maye they well be ioyned togither in one subiecte as Prudence Iustice Temperance and Fortitude are béeing notwithstanding members of one whole But this hathe deceyued you that you thinke bicause dyuers members An ouersight of T. C. of one whole can not be confounded among themselues and one verified of an other therefore they maye not méete togither in one and the selfe same person whiche is a grosse ouersighte of yours for take your owne example althoughe your foote is not your hande yet I am sure you woulde be sorie if one man mighte not haue bothe féete and handes But what neede I labour any thing in prouing this for you your selfe confesse more than I affirmed and as muche as I require that is that election and ordination are sometymes confounded in Ecclesiasticall wryters And therefore the one taken for the other I doe not denie but that sometymes also they be distinguished althoughe the Admonition in this place that I doe nowe confute dothe vtterly confounde them Chapter 7. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 41. Sect. 1. Upon the sixte of the Actes the glosse hathe that that whiche was done there of the twelue Apostles in willing the brethren to looke out fitte men was done to giue vs example and muste be obserued in those that are ordeyned for saythe the glosse the people muste choose and the Bishop muste ordeyne And that S. Hierome muste be so vnderstandes it appeareth not onely that it hathe beene so expounded but also it maye be easily proued for that S. Hieromes sentence and iudgement appeareth in other places that he woulde haue nothing heere done without the people as in his Epistle ad Rusticum monachum he (a) Hieromes words 〈◊〉 willeth that the people shoulde haue power and authoritie to choose their Clearkes and their Ministers And in his Epistle to Neopotian of the lyfe of the clearks he hath this distinction manifestly (b) An vntruthe ▪ proceeding of grosse ignorance for these are Musculus his words and not Hieromes They runne sayth he vnto the Bishops suffraganes certayne times of the yere and bringing some summe of money they are annoynted and ordeyned beeing chosen of none and afterwarde the Bishop without any lawfull election is chosen in hugger mugger of the Canons and Prebendaries onely without the knowledge of the people And so you see that althoughe that S. Hierome saythe that the Bishop had the ordeyning of the Ministers yet he had not the election for the ordeyning was nothing else but an approuing of the election by putting on of handes and consequently hauing made your vaunt that all the learned Fathers were of this iudgement that the Bishop shoulde elect the Minister you shewe not so muche as one Io. Whitgifte What glosse sayth so where shall a man finde it or where is it this is to large a scope that you take vnto your selfe But I muste pardon you for Illiricus of whom you haue borrowed it dothe not otherwyse quote the place Nowebeit the wordes as Illiricus dothe reporte them whiche I thinke are taken out of glossa ordinaria make nothing agaynst any thing that I haue sayde for if you will thus reason The Bishop must ordeyne Ergo he may not elect I denie your argument the reason I haue shewed before one man may bothe ordeyne and elect You haue vtterly falsified Hieromes wordes ad Rusticum monachum and muche T. C. falsifieth Hierome more declined from the true interpretation of them than I woulde haue suspected especially séeing you woulde be thoughte to haue intrapped me in the like not long before For the wordes of Hierome be these Cum ad perfectam aetatem veneris si tamen Hier. ad Rustic Monachum vita comes fuerit te vel populus vel Pontifex ciuitatis in clerum elegerit agito quae clerici sunt VVhen thou shalte come to perfecte age if thy lyfe be answerable and eyther the people or the Bishop of the Citie shall choose thee into the Cleargie doe suche thinges as belong to a Clearke He dothe not héere will that the people shoulde haue authoritie to choose their Clearks and their Ministers as you saye but he saythe vnto Rusticus the Monke that if eyther the people or the Bishop of the Citie choose him to be Clearke that then he must doe those thinges that perteyne to a Clearke He sayth vel populus vel Pontifex c. signifying that it was a thing indifferent to be chosen eyther by the people or by the Bishop which maketh for me against you for I say that a Bishop may choose a minister and you denie it The place that you alleage out of the Epistle of Hierome ad Nepotianum de vita T. C. fathereth that vpon Hierome whi che is not to be founde in him but is in Muscuins Clericorum is not to be
muche as one word of any Bishop of Cōstantinople And y t it may appeare how far you ar ouerséene in this place you shal vnderstād that the last Emperour of whom Eusebius maketh any mētion in these bookes is Dioclesian who came to the Empire Anno. 288. but Constantinople was builded Anno. 335. So that by your assertion the Byshop of Constantinople was confirmed aboue 40. yeares before Constantinople was Chap. 7. the. sixte Diuision T. C. Page 42. Lin. 2. Sect. 1. I will adde only one place which if it be more (*) Part riunt montes c. bitter than the rest and cut the quicke more neare you shall not be angrie with me but first with those that were the Authors of it and then with him that wrote it Eusebius in the sixth booke speaking of Origen which was admitted not of one Byshop but of many Byshops to teach sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted him (a) An vntruth as will appeare without the election of the Presbyterie of the Church which were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the whiche the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie and saith that it hath not bin heard that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshops were present Whereby it is euident that he counted him (b) Vntruth for O gea was yet a lay man and not admitted minister by any a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that Church whereof he was the teacher Io. Whitgifte The terrible preface that is here prefixed would make any man quake that is not acquainted with such vayne bragges But soft man awhile you do but dreame for there is no such matter in that booke of Eusebius Did you neuer heare tell of any that T. C. smiteth at others but woundeth himselfe labouring to smite at another haue deadly wounded themselues I beléeue it will fall so out with you in this bitter and sharpe place and then shall not I neede to be angry with you you shall haue more cause to chafe with your selfe For answer to the place I say it is altogither by you falsifyed and most vntruly Eusebius fa sityed by T. C. alleadged the only thing that Demetrius found fault with was bycause Origen being a lay man did teache in the Churche Byshops being present for he saithe it was neuer heard that lay mē should teach in the churches Byshops being present But what is sayde to this nescimus quomodò c. wherein he affirmeth we know not how that thing which is not Eu. li. 6. ca. true seeing there may be found diuers who when they were able to profyte the brethren and that the holy Byshops had exhorted them to instruct the people did after this sorte teach in the Church As Euelpis was required to do at Laranda by Neon and Paulinus at Iconium by Celsus and at Synada Theodorus by Atticus whiche were all blessed brethren And it is very likely that this thing was done also in other places whiche we know not of Yea Demetrius himselfe suffered him to do the like in Alexandria as it is manifest in sundry places of that booke and euen in the end of the same chapter He retourneth to Alexandria and doth againe employ himselfe to his accustomed diligence in teaching But bycause this place is so confidently auouched and so vntruly I will set it downe as it is in Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 20. where he speaking of Origen saith thus In the meane time by reason of a greate warre begonne in that citie leuing Alexandria and thinking that he could not safely abide in Aegypt he went into Palestina and remayned at Caesaria where also he was requested of the Byshops of that countrie that he would dispute and expound the holy scriptures before the whole Church when as yet he was not ordeyned minister The whiche thing is hereby manifest for that Alexander the Byshop of Hierusalem and Theoctistus Byshop of Caesaria writing to Demetrius of him do after this sort render an accompt of that deed Furthermore he addeth this also in his letters that it was neuer heard of neyther yet at any time seene that lay men did teach in the Church Byshops being present wherein we know not how he affirmeth that thing which is not true c. As it is set downe before What one word is there here that sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted Origen without the election of the presbyterie of the Churche whiche were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the which the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie c. as you affirme Nay is there any thing sounding that way the only cause why Demetrius reproueth them as I haue said is bycause they suffered Origen in their presence to interpret the scriptures in the Churche being as yet Origen was then indeede a lay man but a lay man And yet you sée how Demetrius is reproued for that also how by sundry examples it is there shewed that it is no rare thing for a lay man to interpret the scriptures in the Church the Byshop being present if he be there vnto called by the Byshop Is this your bitter place is this that terrible cutter Indéede it maketh your doings vncyphered and shrewdly woundeth you if you can well consider it But to make the matter yet more plaine Euseb. in the same booke and. 23. chapter sheweth how Origen afterwards accepit presbyterij gradum in Caesaria palestinae ab eius loci Euse. lib. 6. 23. Episcopis was made minister in Caesaria Palestinae of the Byshops of that countrie The which thing Demetrius misliked also not for any iust cause but only of malice for although Demetrius at the firste esteemed well of Origen and bare good will vnto hym yet afterwarde when he saw him maruellously to prosper and to become very famous and well accompted of he then sought meanes not only to discredite him but those also which had preferred him to the ministerie laying to his charge that which he had done being a boy that is gelding of himselfe as Eusebius doth at large declare lib. 6. cap. 8. You sée therfore how vntruly you haue reported Eusebius and that there is no suche cause by him expressed why Demetrius reproued the Byshops as you feyne to be But I partly smell your meaning which I suppose to be this that all we whiche are admitted into the ministerie by the Byshops withoute your presbyterie are but lay men whereby you would insinuate that all those which haue bin baptised by vs are not baptised bycause you say that it is of the
contrary to the present state and that enelineth to libertie would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church nor yet to plant that religion that he in conscience is perswaded to be ncere As for the authoritie of isalowing their elections which you giue vnto him it is but an intollerable trouble and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings or if he doth yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists Libertines Papists Puritanes and an hundreth sects mo or euer he were aware for who will complayne of him whome the people do phansi be he neuer so vnméete a person 3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour Pag. 25. lin 3. Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor bycause he is inferi re to the Pastor both in calling and gifts which if it be true then surely may not the people haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him than the Archdeacon is for to haue interest in electing is to be admitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse that is to be admitted 4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors c Pastors than is conuenient for if an vnméete man were chosen and an appeale made to the next Pastours and from them to the next Synode prouinciall and then the parishioners that will not yéeld excommunicated and after excōmunication complayned of to the Prince and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduēture as wayward as they were before whilest I say all this were in doing besides the maruellous schismes contentions brawlings and hatred that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them two or thrée yeares might soone be spent for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited 5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular gouernment of gouernment that can be For it is true that M. Caluine saith cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy and the change from the gouernment of the best into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder but the fall from a popular state into a sedi ion is of all other most easie 6 The people as I haue said before through affection and want of iudgement are The people easily led by affection easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men they are soone moued by the request of their frends and of such as they eyther feare or loue to do anything as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection or parcialitie 7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him woulde not so freely 〈◊〉 them nor willingly displease them 8 To conclude the people are for the most part rude and ignorant carelesse also in The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases Chrys. 2. in 〈◊〉 suche matters and more me te to be ruled than to rule For as Chrysostome de eth Populus est quiddam tumultus c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement like to the waues of the sea c. These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to be ordeyned they might be heard which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers and that is asmuche as can be required Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches wherin this is safely committed vnto them for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allowing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted Of ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordeining ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes Tract 4. Of ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1. The first Diuision The Admonition The seuenth Then none admitted to the ministerie but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was voyd afore hand to which he should be called Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO proue this you cite in the margent the first of the Acts wher it is declared howe Mathias was chosen in the place of Iudas to make vp the number of the. xij Apostles Surely this is but a slender reason Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas Ergo no man must be admitted into the ministerie excepte a place before hande be voyde to the which he should be called Euery meane sophister will laugh at the childishnesse of this argument Mathias was chosen to be an Apostle and not to any certaine cure and therfore this example proueth nothing T. C. Page 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you woulde seeme to make it for as the. xij place was to Mathias so is a certain Church vnto a Pastor or Minister as the Apostles ordeined none vnto that place before it was voyd so ought not the Bishop ordeyn any vntil there be a Churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordeined not any Apostle further than they had testimonie Act. ▪ of the word of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no Bishop ordeyn any to any function which is not in the scripture appointed But there are by the word of God at this tyme no ordinarie ministers Ecclesiastical which be not local and tyed to one congregation therfore this sending abrode of ministers whiche haue no places is vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte As
by M. Doctor that they are but for a time Io. Whitgifte If you meane Prophetes in the respecte of the gifte of telling thinges to come Act. 11. suche as Agabus was then be they temporall but yet ordinarie for the tyme wherin Prophetes in some respecte ordinary they were But if you meane Prophets in respecte of their dexteritie and readinesse in expounding the Scriptures suche as Barnabas was and Simon Lucius Act. 13. c. and Saule Likewyse suche as Iudas and Silas Actes 15. and suche as the Apostle Act. 15. S. Paule speaketh of 1. Corinth 14. I sée no cause why eyther the calling 1. Cor. 14. should be extraordinary or the â—ffice and gifte temporall excepte you haue a libertie to make temporall and perpetuall ordinarie and extraordinarie what you please But seeing you woulde haue all thinges proued by Scripture I pray you proue this that you haue sayde eyther of the Aposâ—les Euangelisâ—s or Prophetes by the Scripture séeing you teache that of them which seemeth to be contrary vnto the Scripture Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect 2. The ordinarie and continuall functions of the Churche are also deuided into two partes for eyther they are they that gouerne or take charge of the whole Churche as are those which are called Elders or they which take charge of one parte of the Churche whiche is the poore of euery Churche as are those which are called Deacons Those agayne that be called Presbyteri which we tearme Elders of the Churche and haue to doe with the whole Churche are eyther those whiche teache and preache the worde of God and gouerne too or else whiche gouerne onely and do not teache or preache Of the first kinde are Pastors and Doctors Or the second are those which are called by the common name of Elders or auncientes Of all this ordinarie function I shall haue occasion to speake and of euery one shall appeare that which I haue sayde before that they are no vncertayne and vndefinite ministeries but suche as are limitted vnto a certayne Churche and congregation And first of all for the Pastor or Bishop whiche is heere mentioned whiche name soéuer we consider of them they doe foorthwith assoone as they are once eyther spoken or thought of imply and inferre a certayne and definite châ—rge beeing as the Logitians terme them actuall relatiues For what shepheard can there be vnlesse he haue a flocke and howe can he be a watcheman vnlesse he haue some citie to looke vnto Or howe can a man be a master vnlesse he haue a seruaunt or a father vnlesse he haue a childe Nowe if you will saye that they haue a charge and they haue flocks and cities to attende and watche vpon for a whole shire or prouince or realme are their flockes and their Cities and their charges Io. Whitgifte This diuision also is of your owne inuenting neyther haue you any mention of Seniors as you call them or of Deacons in that fourth Chapter to the Ephesi whiche you would haue to be so perfecte a rulè of ecclesiasticall functions As for Pastors and Doctors you knowe that diuers bothe auncient and late writers as namely Hierome Augustine Chrysostome Musculus and Bucer c. do confounde them and the reason that Hieroine vseth can not be well denyed because the Apostle sayth not as he dyd before of the other alios Pastores alios Doctores some Pastors Eph. 4. and other some Doctors but he ioyneth them togither and sayth alios Pastores Doctores some Pastors and Doctors M reouer I sée not howe you can iustifie your diuision of Seniors by the worde of God as I shall further declare in that place where Tract 17. you more largely speake of them In the meane time I sée no reason why your vnpreaching and vnministring Seniors shoulde haue any perpetuitie in the Churche more than Apostles for the cause that I haue before alleadged neyther haue you yet proued that the Deacons office is onely to prouide for the poore you haue examples to the contrarie as I haue declared in my Answere To be shorte I vnderstande not howe you can make Doctors gouernours of any seuerall parishes and Churches except you will make them Pastors But bicause you onely speake héere and proue nothing I will differre a further answere vnti l I heare more sounde argumentes You saye a shepheard can not be vnlesse he haue a flocke c. all which is true but he is also a shepheard that hath mo flockes and he is a shepheard that hathe a generall care and ouersight of many shepheards and many flockes For he that hathe many flockes and many shepheards may haue one master shepheard to sée that all the rest doe their duties and that the shéepe be kepte in good order And thoughe euery seuerall Citie haue seuerall watchemen whiche watche by course yet maye there be one that hathe an especiall care ouer all and is appoynted to see the rest do their duties So one master maye haue many seruauntes one father many children Wherefore if you vse this reason to improue the office of a Bishop it lacketh mighte if to proue that a Pastour muste haue a flocke no man dothe denie it but if to conclude that no man maye preache vnlesse he haue a certayne flocke there is no sequele at all in it for first you muste proue that the onely office of a Pastor is nowe remayning in the Churche and that no man can be minister of the words and Sacraments except he be a Pastor of some certayne flocke for that doe I constantly denie Chapter 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 3. First of all in your reading ministers that is vntrue for they goe not to eade in all Churches but arrie till they be hyred in one And therfore when the Bishop hath layde his hande of Petitio principij them â–ª they are no more Ministers than before his hande came vpon them bicause they haue no charges and therefore the patrone or person that hireth them to reade and setteth them a worke are their Bishops and make them ministers and not the Bishop of the Diocesse Io. Whitgifte These be but words grounded vpon this false principle that none oug te to be admitted into the ministerie but suche as haue a certayne cure and charge which you are neuer able to proue eyther by Scripture or good reason but the contrarie is manyfest by bothe Chapter 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 4. Secondarily for those that preache to haue a whole Diocesse or Prouince or Realme to be their flocke or Citie to attende vpon is contrarie to the pollicie or good husbandrie of all those that woulde eyther haue their Citie safe or their flockes sounde For who are they whyche woulde appoynte one for the watche of a thousande townes or cities when as all they whiche loue their safetie woulde rather haue for euery citie many watchemen
muste learne that there bee not onely Pastors in the Churche but also Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Doctors Ephes. 4. 1. Cor. 12. who all are called ministers and haue their place in the Churche of Christe as it shall be proued if you denie it T. C. Pag. 45. Sect. 1. This passeth all the diuinitie that euer I redde that there are nowe Apostles and Euangelistes and Prophetes You shall assuredly doe maruels if you proue that as you saye you wil if any denie it I denye it proue you it Io. Whitgifte Apostles Then haue you not redde muche diuinitie for if it be true that the Apostle Saincte Paule in the fourth to the Ephesians dothe make a perfecte platforme of a Churche and a full rehersall of the offices therein conteyned as you say he dothe then can I not vnderstande howe you can make those offices rather temporall than the office of the Pastors and Doctors And forasmuche as you so greatly contemne authoritie and woulde haue all thinges proued by Scripture lette mée heare one worde of the same that dothe but insinuate these offices to be temporall The place it selfe séemeth to importe a continuance of these functions vntill the comming of Ephes. 4. Christe For he sayeth He therfore gaue some to be Apostles and some Prophetes and some Euangelistes and some Pastors and Teachers for the gatheryng together of the Sainctes for the woorke of the ministerie c. vntill wee all meete together in the vnitie of faithe and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfecte man and vnto the measure of the age and fulnesse of Christe c. I am perswaded that you can not shew any lyke place whiche dothe so playnely importe the abrogatyng of them as thys 1. Cor. 12. 14. dothe make for their continuaunce I haue besyde that place to the Ephesians the twelfth of the firste to the Corinth and the. 14. where he speaketh of Prophets as of perpetuall ministers in the Churche of Christe I knowe that there were certayne thynges in the Apostles whiche were proper vnto themselues as theyr callyng whyche was immediatly from God their commission to goe into the whole worlde the power of woorkyng miracles to bée witnesses of the Resurrection and of the Ascention c. but to preache the woorde of God in places where néede requireth though the same be not peculiarly committed to them or to gouerne Churches alreadie planted I sée no cause why it shoulde not be perpetuall Euangelists Lykewise the office of the Euangelist if it be taken for the writing of the gospell then it is ceased But if it be taken for preaching to the people playnely and simply as (a) Bull. in 4. ad Ephes. Bullinger thinketh or generally for preaching the gospell as (b) Musc. Tit. de ver minist in locis com Musculus supposeth in whiche sense also Paule sayde to Timothie 2. Timo. 4. doo the worke of an Euangelist Or for preaching more feruently and zealously than other as (c) Bucer in 4. Ephes. Bucer sayeth then I see no cause at all why it may not still remaine in the Church Moreouer Prophetes if they be taken for suche as haue the gifte of foreshewyng things to come then be they not in all tymes of the Churche but if they be Prophets 1. Cor. 14. suche as Saincte Paule speaketh of 1. Corin. 14. such I saye as haue an especiall gyfte in interpretyng the Scriptures whether it bée in expoundyng the mysteries thereof to the learned or in declaryng the true sense thereof to the people I vnderstande not why it is not as perpetuall as the Pastor or Doctor Thus you sée that I haue bothe Scripture and reason on my syde and to the ende you maye perceyue that I am not destitute of the consent also of learned Ambrose men in thys matter I will sette downe the opinions of one or two Ambrose vpon these wordes Ad Ephes. 4. Et ipse dedit quosdam quidem Apostolos c. sayeth thus The Apostles are Bishops Prophets be interpreters of the Scriptures althoughe in the beginning there were Prophetes as Agabus and the foure Virgins Prophetesses as it is in the Actes of the Apostles c. yet nowe interpreters bee called Prophets Euangelistes bee Bucerin 4. Ephe. Deacons as Philip for althoughe they bee no Priestes yet maye they preache the Gospell without a chaire as both Stephanus and Philippe before named Bucer vppon the Fol. 42. sect vlt. same place sayth that there bée Euangelistes nowe and you your selfe fol. 42. confesse that Hus Ierome of Prage Luther Zuinglius c. were Euangelistes Peter Martyr in his P. Martyr Commentaries vpon the. 12. to the Romaines sayth that the Apostle there describeth those functions and giftes whyche are at all tymes necessarie for the Churche And in that place the Apostle mentioneth Prophecying M. Caluine in his Institut Caluine cap. 8. doth confesse that God hath stirred vp Apostles or Euangelistes since that tyme of the Primitiue Churche and that hee hathe doone so lykewyse euen nowe in thys tyme. M. Bullinger vpon the place of the fourth to the Ephe. sayeth that the woordes Bullinger bee confounded and that an Apostle is also called a Prophete a Doctor an Euangeliste a minister and a Bishoppe and a Bishoppe an Euangeliste and a Prophete c. To bée shorte it is thus written in the Confession of the Churches in Heluetia Confess Heluetica The ministers of the newe Testament bee called by sundrie names for they are called Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Byshoppes c. And speakyng of Prophetes it sayeth The Prophetes in tyme paste foreseeyng thynges to come were called Seers who were expounders of the Scriptures also as some bee euen nowe a dayes Euangelistes were wryters of the historie of the Gospell and Preachers also of the gladde tydings of Christe his Gospell As Paule bidde Timothie doe the woorke of an Euangeliste c. So that to saye that there is in the Churche Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes in suche sense as I haue declared is no straunge diuinitie to suche as bée diuines in déede But let vs heare your reasons Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 45. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. And that you maye haue some thyng to doe more than peraduenture you thoughte of when you wrote these woordes I will shewe my reasons why I thinke there oughte to be none nor can be none vnlesse they haue wonderfull and extraordinarie callings It must first be vnderstanded that the signification of this worde Apostle when it is properly taken extendeth it selfe not only to all the ministers of God beeing sente of God but to the Embassador of any Prince or noble man or that is sente of any publike authoritie and is vsed of the Scripture by the trope of Synecdoche for the twelue that our Sauior Christ appointed to go thoroughout all the worlde to preache the Gospell vnto the which number was added Saint Paule and
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
well gouerne a prouince or diocesse and vse the heipe of Archdeacons Chauncellors c. but so cannot the Pope doe whole Christendome what helpe or deputies soeuer he haue If agaynst your will you were constrayned to make such comparisons why do you make Difference betwene the Pope and our Archbishops them when there is no cause why do you forge that which is vntrue why do you ioyne togither offices which in no poynt are like The Pope chalengeth authoritie ouer all Christendome so do not our Archbishops The Pope exalteth himselfe aboue Kings and Princes so do not our Archbishops but with all reuerence acknowledge their subiection to the Prince The Pope sayeth that to be subiect vnto him is of necessitie to saluation so do not our Archbishops The Pope maketh his Decrées equall to the woorde of God our Archbishops thinke nothing lesse of theirs To be short the Pope oppresseth and persecutetth the Gospel they earnestly professe it and haue suffered persecution for it Therefore your comparison is odious your riotous speach more presumptuous than becommeth a man pretending your simplicitie Your good opinion conceyued of them is well vttered in your booke what spirit hath taught you thus to dissemble surely euen the same that hath falsified Scriptures and wryters in your booke that hath vttered so many prowde and contemptuous speaches agaynst your superiours that hath moued you to make contention in the Churche euen spiritus mendax spiritus arrogantiae superbiae a lying spirite the spirite of arrogancie and pryde for such frutes cannot procéede from any other spirite Chap. 3. the. 34. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 3. 4. But Ierome sayth that this distinction of a Bishop a minister or elder was frō S. Marke his tyme vnto Dionysius time whereby M. Doctor would make vs beleeue that Marke was the author of this distinction but that cannot be gathered by Ieromes wordes For besides that things being ordered then by the suffrages of the ministers and Elders it might as it falleth out oftentimes be done without the approbation of S. Marke the wordes from Marke may be rather taken exclusiuely to shut out S. Marke and the time wherein he liued than inclusiuely to shut him in the tyme wherein this distinction rose Howsoeuer it be it is certayne that S. Marke did not distinguishe and make those things diuers which the holy ghost made all one For then which the Lord forbid he should make the storie of the Gospell which he wrote suspected Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to Ieromes woordes but a dallying with them the place is euident he sayth from the time of Marke the Euangelist whom vndoubtedly he would not haue named vnlesse the same manner had bene in his time But be it that the wordes from Marke be taken exclusiuely which no man of Iudgement will graunt yet doth it argue a great antiquitie of this distinction euen from the moste pure and best time of the Churche It is certayne that these thinges were not otherwise distinguished than the holy Ghost had appoynted and therefore your for then c. is an vngodly collection and vnbeséeming your person in any respect to imagine of the glorious Gospell written by that holy Euangelist Chap. 3. the. 35. Diuision T. C Pag. 2. Sect. 5. Againe it is to be obserued that Ierome sayeth it was so in Alexandria signifying thereby An absurde collection that in other Churches it was not so And indeede it may appeare in diuers places of the auncient fathers that they confounded Priest and Bishop and tooke them for all one as Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Ani ete Pius Telesphorus Higinus Xystus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 5. 16. De dignitate sacerdotali Elders and presidents Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop in the Epistles before recited so doth Ambrose in the place alledged before by M. Doctor and yet it is one thing with vs to be a priest as M. Doctor speaketh and an other thing to be a Bishop Io. Whitgifte This argument passeth of all that euer I heard Ierome sayth there was a Bishop The passing Logike of T. C. in Alexandria aboue the other ministers from S. Markes time therefore there was no Bishop in any place else God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Iacob Ergo he is no bodies God else he is the God of the Iewes Ergo not of the Gentiles There be Bishops in England Ergo there are none in any other place No marueyle it is though you riot in your Logike when such stuffe is set abroad Like vnto this are the other Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Anitete Pius Telesphorus c. elders and presidents and Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop and so doth Ambrose Ergo euery Priest is such a Bishop as Ierome here speaketh of These be pretie argumentes Euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest hath not the name and title of a Bishop Difference betwixt byshop priest Hieronymus ad Euagrium in that meaning that Ierome in this place taketh the name of a Byshop For his woordes be these Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heraclam c. At Alexandria from Marke the Euangelist vntill Heracla and Dionysius Bishops the ministers alwayes chose one from among themselues and placing him in a higher degree of dignitie called him a Bishop as if an armie should make a Captayne ▪ c. Neyther shall you finde this woorde Episcopus commonly vsed but for that Priest that is in degrée ouer and aboue the rest notwithstanding Episcopus be oftentimes called Presbyter bycause Presbyter is the more generall name so that M. Doctor sayth truely that it is with vs one thing to be a Byshop an other thing to be a priest bycause euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest is not a Bishop I know these names be confounded in the Scriptures but I speake according to the manner and custome of the Church euen since the Apostles time And this is not onely my opinion but other learned men affirme it in lyke manner as M. Bucer in his booke De regno Christi and vpon the. 4. Ephes. Whose woordes I haue before rehersed Thus you sée that M. Doctors distinction is with better authoritie cōfirmed than you haue any to ouerthrow it Chap. 3. the. 36. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Ierusalem was a famous Church so was Rome as the Apostle witnesseth so was Antioche Rom. 1. and others where also were great contentions both in doctrine and otherwise and yet for auoyding of contention schisine there there was no (*) An vntruth one that was ruler of the rest Therfore we ought rather to follow these Churches beyng many in keping vs to the institutiō of the Apostles than Alexandria beyng but one Church and departing from that institution if there had bene any one set ouer al the rest in other places it would haue made much for the distinctiō that Icrome had
how without reason you tooke vpon you to answer his reasons and now in the ende how vnpossible an interpretation you feine of his words which if he well consider he shall note in you great audacitie smal iudgemēt and no truthe For the author is of greate learning and worthynesse his reasons strong and his wordes playne and euident for the authoritie of the Bishop ouer the rest of the Cleargie Chap. 3. the 3. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 71. Sect. 2. 3. Chrysostome writing vpon the twentieth of Mathevve sayth that Chrysostome the rebellious nature of man caused these distinctions of degrees that one should be an Apostle an other a Bishop an other a minister an other a lay man And that vnlesse there vvere suche distinctions of persones there coulde be no discipline And vpon the. 13. to the Romaines he sayth that bicause equalitie engēdreth strife contētion therfore superioritie and degrees of persons were appoynted T. C. Page 83. Sect. 1. What is that to the purpose that Chrysostome sayth there must be degrees who denyeth that there are degrees of functions we confesse there is and ought to be a degree of pastors an other of Doctors the third of those which are called Elders the fourth of Deacons And wher he saith there should be one degree of Byshop an other of a minister another of the lay man (*) It proueth that there are degrees among ministers of the word which you denie what proueth that for the office of an Archbyshop whiche is your purpose to shew how often times must you be called ad Rhombum and that he meaneth nothing lesse than to make any such difference betwene a byshop and a minister as is with vs whiche you woulde fayne make your reader beleeue I will send you to Chrysostome vpon the third chapter 1. Epistle to Timothie wher he saith the office of a byshop differeth little or nothing from an Elders and a little after that a byshop disierreth nothing from an Elder or minister but by the ordination only Still M. Doctor goeth forward in killing a dead man that is in confuting that whiche all men condemne and prouing that which no man denye h that there must be superioritte amongst men and that equalitie of all men alike confoundeth all and ouerthroweth all Io. Whitgifte Chrysostome in that place maketh degrées in the ministerie and placeth the Bishop in degrée aboue the minister which vtterly ouerthroweth your equalitie As for your distinction of degrées it hath a small grounde in the scripture to warrant it as can be and in déed it is but your owne inuētion For the Pastor doctor and elder in office are all one as the most best writers thinck Howsoeuer it is you haue them not thus distinguished in the Scripture that the Pastor should be firste the Doctor next the Elder third the deacon last and it is strange that you will inuent a new order of ministers without the expresse warrant of Gods worde misliking the same so muche in other This superioritie that Chrysostome talketh of ouerthroweth that part of the Admonitiō that I confute for they do not only disallow the office of the Archbishop but of the Bishop also would haue a mere equalitie amōg the ministers this I refel as well as the other and indéede the ouerthrow of this is the ouerthrow of the other And therefore this place of Chrysostome serueth my turne very well and aptly Chrysostom vpon that 3. chapter of the first to Timothie giueth asmuch superioritie to the Bishop as I doe and maketh asmuch difference betwixt him and the minister for I graunt that quoad ministerium they be all one but y t there be degrees of dignitie and so sayth Chrysostom that there is little difference betwixta Byshop and a priest but that a Byshop hath authoritie to ordaine priests and all other things that the Byshop may do the priest also may do that excepted so that Chrisostome here speaketh only of the ministerie of the Byshop not of his authoritie in the ecclesiasticall gouernment for of that he spake in the place before alledger where he sayth that In 20. Math. there is one degree of the Byshop and other of the minister c. which distinction of degrées was long before Chrysostomes time as I haue declared To proue these degrées of superioritie among ministers is to proue y e which both the Admonition you denie which is the grounde of this controuersie therfore I haue not herein gone about to kill a dead man except you count the grounde of your assertion dead If there must be superioritie amongst men and that equalitie of all men alyke confoundeth all and ouerthroweth as you confesse and is most true then equalitie of ministers confoundeth all among them and therefore it is requisite that in that state also there be supe iours to auoyde confusion whiche being graunted what haue you to saye eyther against Archbishops or Bishops except you haue some newe deuise of your owne which is not vnlyke bicause nothing doth please you but your owne Chap. 3. the. 40. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Sect. 2. This is a notable argument there must be some superiour amongst men ergo one minister must be superior to an other again ther must be in y e ecclesiastical functions some degrees ergo ther must be an archbishop ouer y e whole prouince or a Bishop ouer y e whole dioces And albert M. Doctor taketh great paine to proue y t which no man denieth yet he doth it so 〈◊〉 and so vn itly as that i a man had no better proofes than he bringeth the degrees of y e ecclesiasticall functions might fal to the ground For here to proue the degrees of the ecclesiastical functions he bringeth in that that Chrysostome sayth there muste be magistrate and subiecte him that commaundeth and him that obeyeth Io. Whitgifte The argument is good foloweth verie wel For as superioritie gouernment is Superioritie conuenient among ministers necessarie in al other states degrees of men so is it in y e ministerie also for ministers be not angels nor they are not of y t perfection y t they may safely be left in their own absolute gouernment That which Chrysostom in this place speaketh of gouernmēt in the ciuil state the same doth he speak in the. 13. to the Hebrues of y e ecclesias ical in lyke maner for expounding these words Parete his qui praesunt vobis c. whiche is vnderstood of Bishops he sayth that there be thrée euils which oue throw the church Chrysost. all other societies The first wherof is to haue no superiour none to rule and this he proueth by diuers examples as of a Quier without a Chaunter an armie of souldiours without a captaine a ship without a maister a locke of shéepe without a shepeheard Now if superioritie be so needfull among the clergie then why may not one
tyrannie and excessiue is moderate and lawfull and according bothe to the lawes of God and man To conclude I see that you are as farre from order and a ryghte forme of gouernment as you are from modestie and due obedience and that the ende you shoote at is nothyng else but a méere confusion not onelye of the Churche but of the common wealthe also the gouernment whereof you would haue framed according to your platforme of the Churche that is you would haue it brought from a Monarchie to a popular or Aristocraticall kinde of gouernmente euen as you would haue the Church Chap. 3. the. 52. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 1. Paule was superior both to Timothie and Titus as it may easily be gathered out of his Epistles written vnto them T. C. Page 86. Sect. 3. M. Doctor reasoneth agayne that Paule an Apostle and in the hyghest degree of ministerie ▪ They are not yet proued Euangelistes was superior to Timothie and Titus Euangelistes and so in a lower degree of ministerie therefore one Minister is superior to another one Byshop to another Byshop which are all one office ▪ and one function As if I shoulde saye my Lorde Maior of London is aboue the Sherifes therefore one Sherife is superior to another Io. Whitgifte There was no difference betwixte them in respect of preaching the Gospell and The example o 〈◊〉 proueth ritie among y t ministers of the worde administring the sacramentes but in respecte of gouernment therefore among Ministers of the worde and Sacramentes there may be degrées of dignitie and superioritie and one may rule ouer another which is the grounde of my assertion and the ouerthrow of yours And this doth the example of Paul proue euidently euen as the example of my Lorde Mayor doth proue that there is superioritie in gouernment among the Citizens For thus you should haue reasoned as my Lord Mayor his authoritie aboue the rest of the Citizens declareth that there is superioritie in the ciuill state and one subiecte to another euen so Paules superioritie ouer Timothie Titus and other Ministers declareth that there may be superioritie in the state Ecclesiasticall and that one of them may and ought to be subiect to another thus you should haue applyed the similitude if you had truely applyed it Chap. 3. the. 53. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 2. Titus had superioritie ouer al y e other pastors Ministers which Titus had superioritie were in Creta for he had potestatem constituendi oppidatim presbyteros ad Tit. The which place M. Caluine expounding sayth on this sort Discimus ex hoc loco c. vvelearne of this place saith he that there vvas not suche equalitie Caluine confessem superioritie among ministers among the Ministers of the Churche but that one bothe in authoritie and councell did rule ouer another T. C. Page 86. Sect. 3. Againe another argument he hath of the same strength Titus being an Euangelist was superior to al the pastors in Crete which was a degree vnder the Euangelists therefore one 〈◊〉 ▪ must be superior vnto another pastor And that he was superior he proueth bycause he had authoritie ordeine pastors so that the print of the Archbishop is so deepely set in his head that he 〈◊〉 he 〈◊〉 imagine nothing but that Titus should be Archbyshop of all Creta Io. Whitgifte Titus was a Byshop as it shal be proued and you haue not one worde in Scripture of his beyng an Euangelist it is Erasmus and Pellicane two famous men that imagine Titus to haue been Archbyshop of Creta scoffe at them Chap. 3. the. 54. Diuision T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 4. I haue shewed before howe these wordes are to be taken of Saynte Paule And for so muche as M. Doctor burdeneth vs wyth the authoritie of Caluine so often I wyll sende him to Caluines owne interpretation vpon this place where he (*) You shifte of M. Caluines place for superioritie amongst the Cleargie by flying to another place of election of Ministers sheweth that Titus dyd not ordeyne by hys owne authoritie For Saynte Paule woulde not graunte Titus leaue to doe that whyche he hymselfe woulde not and sheweth that to saye that Titus shoulde make the election of Pastors by hymselfe is to gyue vnto hym a princely authoritie and to take awaye the election from the Church and the iudgement of the insufficiencie of the Minister from the companye of the pastors which were saith he to prophane the whole gouernment of the Church Io. Whitgifte Thys is to set Caluine againste Caluine and not to answere hym and yet thys is nothyng contrarie to that whyche I haue alleaged oute of hym for in the place that I haue alleaged he gathereth vpon these wordes vt constituas oppidatìm presbyteros The shifts of the Replyer ▪ c. that there was not suche equalitie among the Ministers of the Churche but that one bothe in authoritie and Councell dyd rule ouer another You to auoyde thys testimonie of Caluine for superioritie tell me that Caluine saythe vpon this place that Titus dyd not ordeyne Ministers by hys owne authoritie c. whyche is no answere to the place that I haue alleaged but a verye quarrell pickte oute to auoyde the answering of it Master Caluine sayth that among the Ministers there was one ruled ouer another authoritate consilio by authoritie and Councell And he dothe gather it oute of the texte by me alleaged eyther answere it or gyue place vnto it or denie it Of electing Ministers I haue spokē before it is now out of place to speake of it agayne and it is to no purpose but to shift of an Answere Chap. 3. the. 55. Diuision T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 5. I maruell therefore what M. Doctor meaneth to be so busye wyth M. Caluine and to seeke confirmation of hys Archbyshop and Byshop at hym whyche woulde haue shaken at the namyng of the one and trembled at the offyce of the other onlesse it be bycause he woulde fayne haue hys playster where he receyued hys wounde But I bare assure hym that in hys garden he shall neuer fynde the herbe that wyll heale hym And bycause that the Scriptures when they make for oure cause receyue thys answere commonly that they serued but for the Apostles tymes and Master Caluines authoritie wyll weye nothyng as I thinke wyth M. Doctor when he is alleaged by vs againste hym I will sende hym to the Greeke S choliast whiche vpon this place of Titus saythe after this sorte He woulde not speaking of Saynte Paule haue the whole Isle of Crete ministred and gouerned by one but that euerye one shoulde haue his proper charge and care for so shoulde Titus haue a lighter laboure and the people that are gouerned shoulde enioye greater attendance of the pastor whylest he that teacheth them dothe not runne aboute the gouernmente of manye congregations but attendeth vnto one and garnisheth that Io.
Whitgifte What opinion Master Caluine hathe of Archbyshops and of Superioritie amongest Pastors and Ministers maye appeare in his wordes that I haue alleaged in my Answere I thinke Master Caluine neuer vttered in worde or wryting hys mislyking of the present gouernmente of thys Churche of Englande by Archbyshops and Byshops what he hath spoken agaynst the abuse of them in the Popes Church is not to be wrested against the right vse of them in the true Churche of Christ. I haue answered the Scriptures by you alleaged truely and directly You haue not as yet vrged me wyth that authoritie of Master Caluine that I haue so shifted of as you haue done this last The Scholiast meaneth that euery Citie shoulde haue his Pastor in the Isle of Creta and that Titus shoulde gouerne them as Byshop not as hauyng the whole Titus Archbyshop and sole charge of euery seuerall towne or Citie whych maye euidently appeare to be true by these wordes of Theodoret placed in the same author Titus was a notable Diseiple of Paul but was ordeyned Bishop of Creta whych was a very large Isle Theodoret. in arg Epist. Tit. apud Scholiast it was permitted cōmitted vnto him that he might ordeine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Byshops that were vnder hym Wherby it may be gathered that euery Citie in Creta had a Byshop whyche had the seuerall charge and that Titus gouerned them as Archbyshop The lyke doth Chrysostome whom the Greeke Scholiast doth especially followe affirme of Timothie in 1. Tim. 5. vpon these wordes aduersus presbyterum c. Timotheo credita fuerat ecclesia imò gens ferè tota Asiatica The Churche yea almoste Chrysost. the whole people of Asia was committed to Timothie But what néede I vse manie wordes when Chrysostome hymselfe affirmeth the same directly of Titus 1. Idem ad Titum neque eius profectò illi c. Truely Paule woulde not haue committed the whole Isle to hym neyther woulde he haue commaunded those thyngs to be supplyed whyche were wanting for he sayth that thou myghtest correcte those thyngs whyche are wanting neither woulde he haue committed vnto him the Iudgemente of so manye Byshops if he had not trusted hym very well Chap. 3. the. 56. Diuision T. C. Page 87. Sect. 1. Nowe M. Doctor maye see by thys that Titus was not as he fansyeth the Archbyshop of all Crete but that he had one flocke wherevpon for the tyme he was there he attended and that where it is sayde he ordeyned Ministers it is nothyng else but that he was the chiefe and the moderator in the election of the ministers as I haue declared before by many examples And it is no maruell althoughe the reste graunted hym this preheunnence when he had both most excellent giftes and was a degree aboue the Pastors being an Euangelist Io. Whitgifte Thys I maye see that firste you haue no conscience in falsifying and corruptyng of authors Secondly that you speake contraryes euen in these fewe lynes for you saye that Titus had one flocke in Creta wherevpon he dyd attende for the tyme he T. C. contrarie to himselfe was there ▪ whiche muste néedes proue hym to be a Pastor and yet you afterwardes denye hym to be a Pastor affirming hym to be an Euangelist and you take the office of an Euangelist to be so distincte from the office of a Pastor that they may not méete together in one man Thirdly I sée that you confidentlye take vpon you to expounde Paules meanyng agaynste hys playne woordes and agaynste the Iudgemente of the olde interpreters and diuerse of the newe as I haue shewed before in the election of Ministers Besydes these I see nothing answered to this example of Titus Chap. 3. the. 57. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 3. Timothie bare rule ouer all the other Ministers of the Churche Timothies authoritie ▪ of Ephesus for Paule saythe vnto hym 1. Timo. 5. aduersus presbyterum accusationem c. Agaynst a Minister receyue no accusation vnlesse there be two or three vvitnesses In which words Paul maketh him a Iudge ouer the rest of the Ministers T. C. Page 87. Sect. 2. Unto the place of Timothie where he wylleth hym not to admitte an accusation agaynste an Elder vnder two or three witnesses I answere as ▪ I haue done before to the place of Titus that is that as the ordination of the Pastors is attributed vnto ▪ Titus and Timothie bycause they gouerned and moderated that action and were the firste in it so also is the deposyng or other censures of them and that for as muche as he wryteth his Epistles vnto Timothie and Titus he telleth them howe they shoulde behaue them selues in theyr offyce and dothe not shut oute other from thys censure and Iudgemente And it is more agreeable to the inscription of the Epistles that he shoulde saye admitte not thou or ordeyne not thou wryting vnto one than if he shoulde saye ordeyne not ye or admitte not ye as if he shoulde write to manye for so shoulde neyther the endyng agree wyth the begynnyng nor y e myddest wyth them both And if thys be a good rule that bycause Paule byddeth Timothie and Titus to Iudge of the faultes of the pastors and to ordeyne Pastors therefore none else dyd but they then (*) A meeres ▪ uill whereas Saynte Paule byddeth Timothie that he shoulde commaunde and teache that godlynesse is profitable to all thyngs and admonisheth hym to be an example of the whole flocke by your reason he wyll haue no other of the Ministers of Ephesus or of the Isle of Creta to teache that doctrine or to be examples to their flockes and an hundreth suche thyngs in the Epistles of Timothie and Titus whyche althoughe they be there particularly directed vnto Timothie and Titus yet doe they agree and are common to them wyth all other Ministers yea sometymes vnto the whole flocke Io. Whitgifte You haue certeyne common shiftes to put of suche places as you can not answere among whiche thys is one that you vse in thys place But it wyll not serue beyng grounded neyther vppon authoritie nor reason These woordes of Saynte Paule in déede be not spoken to Timothie alone but to all other Byshops of lyke authoritie for that whiche is prescribed to Timothie is also prescribed to all other in the lyke function whyche argueth that thys authoritie gyuen to Timothie ouer all the Ministers of the Churche of Ephesus dothe perteyne also to all other Byshoppes ouer the Ministers of theyr seuerall Diecesse But as Saynte Paule in these Epistles wryteth onely to Byshoppes and Pastors so are the preceptes gyuen therein properly perteyning to the offyce of Byshops and Pastors and therefore not to be wrested to anye other And howe can the Papistes more grossely abuse the Scriptures in interpretyng them to serue their turne and to shifte of theyr authoritie alleaged agaynste them than you doe in thys and suche other places agaynste
may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Iud. 51. Testament As in the booke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the Uniuersitie men those whiche handled the penne of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battayle agaynst the enemies of God And in the first booke of Samuell and in the seconde booke of the Kings 1. Sam. 19. when Naioth and Bethel Iericho and a place beyonde Iordan are specified places which were 2. Rg. 2. scholes or Uniuersities where the scholers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning the continuance of whiche scholes and vniuersities amongst the people of God Act. 6. may be easily gathered of that which S. Luke writeth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certayne Colleges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one College to receyue the Iewes and Proselites which came out of Cilicia another for those that came out of Alexandria c. to studie at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shewe suche euidence for Archbishops and Archedeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I will not denie but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Io. Whitgifte Yet sayth he truely for in those tymes in Christian congregations there were neyther publike Churches or Pulpits or scholes or Vniuersities c. and yet these doe apperteyne to the gouernmente of the Churche In déede S. Paule speaketh onely there of suche ecclesiasticall functions as doe teache and preache the worde and not of suche as doe onely gouerne and therefore it can not be a perfecte platfourme for euer as I haue before declared and yet dyuers of these thinges mentioned by the Bishop of Sarisburie perteyne bothe to the office of teaching and gouerning That whiche you saye of Scholes and Uniuersities I minde not to examine bicause I knowe they be necessary for the Churche howe aptely soeuer you proue them But this is the matter they be necessarie in the Churche bothe for the office The Byshop is not answered of gouerning and teaching and yet they be not expressed in the fourthe to the Ephesians therefore in that fourth to the Ephesians there is no perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall gouernment for that is the thing that the Bishop of Sarisburie affirmeth and therevnto you answere not one worde Not one of these places that you alleage proueth that in this texte to the Ephesians eyther Scholes or Vniuersities be mentioned thoughe it be certayne that they perteyne bothe to teaching and gouerning and therefore all this spéeche of yours is Ignorantia Elenchi to no purpose but onely to dasle the eyes of the Reader least he should perceyue how you offende in ignorantia Elenchi in not answering ad idem Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 3. Furthermore he sayth that the Churche is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an Archbishop or Archdeacon can be shewed we wyll not stryue for the name but for so much as all the needefull offices of the Church togither with theyr names are mentioned in the the Scripture it is truely sayde that bothe the offices and names of Archebishop and Archedeacons beeing not onely not conteyned in them but also condemned ought to be banished out of the Churche Io. Whitgifte I haue before shewed that the office of visiting Churches of ouerséeing many Pastors The office of archbyshops archde cons contemed in scripture and Bishops of suppressing schismes c. was in the Apostles and is in the scriptures But in these things doth the office of an Archbyshop consist and in part of them the office of an Archdeacon therefore the offices of Archbyshops and Archdeacons be conteined in the scriptures and were in the Apostles time For although as I then sayde that this part of the Apostolicall office which did consist in planting and founding Churches through the whole world is ceased yet the manner of gouernment by placing Byshops in euery Citie by moderating and gouerning them by visiting the Churches by cutting of schismes and contentions by ordering Ministers remaineth still and shall continue and is in this Church in the Archbyshops and Byshops as most meete men to execute the same Wherefore séeing the offices be in the scriptures there is no cause why the names should be mislyked much lesse banished and cast out of the churche Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision T C. Pag. 92. Sect. 4. Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any wayght in his wordes nameth an Archbyshop I haue before shewed what waight there is in his wordes I refuse not that he be weyghed by the Byshops owne weyghtes whiche he giueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacie and in the. 223. and. 224. pages by the which weyghtes appeareth that this Anacletus is not onely lighte but a playne counterfeit Io. Whitgifte Yet you sée that learned men are content to vse such authoritie as occasion serueth Supra ap 〈◊〉 ▪ diuis 13. as I haue also before shewed other learned men to doe the lyke And if it be to greatly to be reproued first smite at your selfe as most guiltie in this poynt Chap. 4. the. 9. Diuision The second Reason Secunda ratio ▪ The Synagogue of the Iewes was a figure of the Church of Christe And God to the perfection of that Church omitted nothing The Ansvvere of the Byshop I see not vvhat you vvoulde conclude perhaps you vvill saye they had Eius solutio not the names of Pope or Archbyshop So had they not this name Episcopus in all Moses lavve yet vvere not all Priests of like aunciencie in gouernment They had other names that vvere equiualent vvith Archbyshops as Principes Synagogae Principes sanctuarij Principes familiarum Leuiticarum Principes familiarum sacerdotalium Principes Sacerdotum Principes domus Dei Pontifex Summus Pontifex Summus sacerdos c. Therefore this negatiue reason is but vveake Agayne vvhereas it is sayde that to the perfection of the Synagogue there vvanted nothing it may be ansvvered that to the perfection thereof there vvanted many things as it is knovvne and confessed And as the Synagogue had not the names of Pope and Archbyshop so had it not the name of Apostle o Euangelist c. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 5. The second reason which saith that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all all things needefu ▪ appointed by y e commaundement of God the Bishop saith he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothing lesse ment than that the Church vnder the Gospell should haue al those things that y e Church had or should haue nothing which that had not But this ther vpon is concluded that the Lord which was so carefull for that
a Bishop apointed in euery village ▪ or little citie least they should waxe vile (a) An vntruth as will appeare through the multitude wherby it both appeareth that ther was wont to be a Byshop in euery parish and vpon how corrupt and euill consideration one Byshop was set ouer a whole diocesse No doubt those that were authors of this had learned to well our olde prouerb the fewer the better cheare but the more Byshops the merier it had bin with Gods people Io. Whitgifte This epistle was writtē by Pope Zacharie to one Boniface which was Byshop in France and not to Pope Boniface moreouer it is in the. 2. tome of Councels and you haue quoted in your margent the third But to the matter You haue not one word in that epistle to proue that there was wont at any time The Epistle of Pope Zacharie falsified to be in euery parish a Byshop And you haue falsely alleadged the words of the epistle for these words least they should waxe vile through the multitude are not ther to be found The words of the Epistle be there For you must remember what we are commaunded by the olde canons to obserue that we ought not to ordein Bishops in villages and smal cities least the name of a Byshop should waxe vile What one word is there here of placing Byshops in euery parish Zacharie telleth Boniface that it is according to the olde canons that Byshops should not be placed in such smal cities but in more ample and large cities bycause the contemptiblenesse of the place dothe oftentimes bring contempt to the person and a Byshop ought to be estéemed and reuerenced If you had red the epistle you should haue perceiued that this Boniface had lately conuerted to christianitie interiorem Germaniam and that he had ordeyned amōg them certaine Byshops to gouerne them whome he desired Pope Zacharie by his authoritie to confirme to whome Pope Zacharie answering willeth him to consider whether the places be so conuenient or the number of the people so great vt Episcopos habere mereantur Meminerimus enim saith he quid in sacris canonibus c. as I haue rehearsed them befor ▪ And a little after he nameth the places where he will haue the byshops seates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there is nothing lesse ment than that there was in euery parish a Bishop 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 much as there was there before no Byshop in any parish but this is all that may be gathered that the seates of Byshops were by the olde canons apointed to be in the best cities and most famous places which to be true you may soone perceiue in those canons themselues mētioned here by Zacharie they are to be found dist 80. Chap. 5. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. And they might with as good reason hinder the sunne from shining in all places and the raine 〈◊〉 falling vpon al grounds for feare they should not be set by being common as to bring in such a wicked decree whereby vnder pretēce of deliuering the Byshop from contempt they sought nothing else but an ambitious and stately Lordship ouer those whiche had not that title of Byshop that they had although they did the office of a Byshop better than they did And what intollerable presumptiō is this to chaunge the institution of God as though he (*) When or where did God ordeyne this which ordeyned not one only but some number more or lesse of Byshops in euery Church did not sufficiently foresee that the multitude and plentie of Byshops could breede no contempt of the office And it may be as well ordeyned that the children of poore men shoulde not call them that begar them fathers and mothers but only the children of the rich and of the noble least that if euery man that hath children shoulde be called a father fathers should be set nothing by Io. Whitgifte It is a maruellous matter that you delight to runne so fast vpon a false string I tell you once agayne that you neuer red that Epistle neyther yet those canons that it speaketh of If you had red them you would neuer haue affirmed if there be any modestie left in you that the multitude of Byshops is alledged there as a cause of contempte no such thing being mentioned The canons haue a very good consideration and be not wicked but wise and godly This superioritie of Byshops is Gods owne institution and it hath a necessary vse in the Church of God as is shewed before It hathe bin and may be abused and it is and may be well vsed All these glorious words of yours are but very wordes and therefore as words I will committe them to the winde This one thing I cannot let passe that you say God ordeyned not one onely but some But one Bishop in a citie number moe or lesse of Byshops in euery Church What scripture haue you to proue that there should be more Byshops than one in one Church What one example in al the primitiue Church haue you to warrant this your assertion Nay you haue the whole practise of the Church to the contrary euen from the beginning Iames alone was Byshop of Ierusalem Timothie of Ephesus Titus of Creta Clemens of Rome c. and it hath bin always compted as monstrous to haue two Byshops of one citie as to haue two heads of one body But such bolde assertions without proofe are méete principles for such a ruinous and totering platforme as you dreame of Chap. 5. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. And here let vs obserue by what degrees and stayers Sathan lifted the child of perdition vnto that proud title of vniuersall Byshop First (*) In what place of scripture ▪ where the Lord did ordeyne that there shoulde be diuers pastors elders or Byshops in euery congregation (a) Is not this soundly proued ▪ Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery Church this was no doubt the first steppe Afterwards he pushed further and stirred vp diuers not to content themselues to be Byshops of one Church but to desire to be Byshops of a dioces wherevnto although it seemeth that ther was resistance in that it is sayd that it was decreede often yet in the end this wicked attempt preuayled and this was another steppe then were there Archbyshops of whole prouinces whiche was the thirde stayer vnto the seate of Antichrist Afterwards they were patriarches of one of the fower corners of the whole world the whole Church being assigned to the iurisdiction of fower that is to say of the Romaine Constantinopolitane Antiochene and Alexandrine Byshops and these fower stayers being layde of Sathan there was but an easie stride for the Byshop of Rome into that chaire of pestilence wherein he now sitteth Io. Whitgifte All this is as coldely proued as it is boldely affirmed for here is neyther scripture doctor story Councell or any thing else but ipse dixit How proue
you that the Lorde ordeyned that there should be in euery congregation diuers pastors elders or Byshops The place of scripture if there be any had bin soone quoted Or howe proue you that Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery Church Is it Sathās worke Sathan not the cause of one Byshop in one church that one Church should haue but one pastor This is straunge doctrine and far from an Apostolicall spirite contrary to the practise of the Apostles and of the Church euen from the beginning But séeing you haue so barely set it downe without any kynde of proofe I will passe it ouer by putting you to your proofe But yet tell me dyd Sathan stirre vp Timothie and Titus who were Byshops of one whole diocesse Did he stirre vp the other auncient fathers and godly Bishops of whome I haue spoken Whither will this slaunderous mouth reache whome will this venemous tongue spare if it speake so spitefully of such worthie Pastors Your collection of resistance that hath béene to such superioritie béeing grounded of the place that you neuer sawe nor red is rashe and vnaduised For if you had séene eyther that Epystle or those Canons you woulde or at the least you might haue learned another lesson Archbishops Patriarches c. were allowed by the Councell of Nice the godlyest and the most perfect Councell since the Apostles time that euer was And did Sathan rule there also and preuayle O that Arius were aliue to heare it These steppes whereof you make Sathan the authour and whereby you say the Bishop of Rome hath ascended into the Chayre of pestilence c. haue béene the best and most conuenient kinde of gouernment that euer was in the Church since the Apostles time approued and allowed by the best Councels and the next meanes to haue kept Antichrist out of his seate if in all places they had remayned in theyr full force and authoritie But this I may not passe ouer that you in effect confesse your kinde of gouernment by elders to haue ceased before the Councell of Nice and also one Bishop to haue béene ouer one whole Diocesse before that time in that you say that the childe of perdition was lifted vp by these degrées the last whereof was allowed in the Nicene Councell Chap. 5. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 96. Sect. 2. Hauing nowe shewed howe this Lordly estate of the Bishop began and vppon what a rotten grounde it is builded I come to shewe howe farre the Bishops in our tyme are for theyr pompe and outwarde statelinesse degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Io. Whitgifte A man woulde haue thought that you being so great an enimie to those degrées woulde not haue thus concluded vpon so small proofe and the same vtterly vntrue vsing onely for your grounde the Epistle of Pope Zacharie which maketh nothing for your purpose Now let vs sée how farre the Bishops of our tyme are for theyr pompe c. degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Chap. 5. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 3. And here I call to remembrance that which was spoken of the poore estate of Basill and Theodorete and if M. Doctour will say as he doth indeede in a certaine place that then was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easily answered that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good Emperours But that shall appeare better by the Canons which were rules giuen for the Bishops to frame themselues by Io. Whitgifte It is for lacke of other examples that you are constreyned to repeate these To the poorenesse of Theodorete I haue answered there may be as poore Bishops now as there was then and there might be as riche Bishops then as there are nowe It is not one or two examples that can proue the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 1. In the 4. Councell of Carthage it is degreed that the Bishops shoulde haue a little house 14. Canon ▪ it calleth it hospitiolū ▪ 15. Canon neare vnto the Church what is this compared with so many fayre large houses and with the princely Palace of a Bishop And in the same Councell it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of his house after the common sort and that his table and dyet shoulde be poore and that he should get him estimation by faythfulnesse and good conuersation Io. Whitgifte In the. 52. and. 53. Canons of the same Councell Clearkes how learned so euer they be in Gods woorde are willed to get their liuing by some occupation or by husbandrie but I thinke you will not haue them so to do now at this time Wherefore you must cōsider the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church If God hath dealt now more bountifully with his Church in externall benefites if he hath put into the hearts of Christian Princes thus to deale with the ministers of the woorde and if this state and condition be necessary for this time and people why should you enuie it Ritches and fayre houses be no hinderances but helpes if they be vsed accordingly and commonly hypocrisie and pryde lieth hidde vnder the name of pouertie and simplicitie Chap. 5. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 97. Sect. 1. And in another Councell that the Bishops should (a) No suche thing in that place not giue themselues to feastes but be 5. Canon concil Tyronen content with a litle meate Let these Bishops be compared with oures whose chambers shine with gilte whose walles are hanged with clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden with plate whose tables and diets are furnished with multitude and diuersitie of dishes whose dayly dinners are feastes let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those old Bishops were aliue they would not know eche other For they would thinke that oures were Princes and ours would thinke that they were some hedge Priests not worthie of their acquaintaunce or fellowship Io. Whitgifte If you meane the first Tyronense Concilium there is no such thing to be found in the 5. Canon of it nor in the whole Councell The fifth Canon conteyneth a profitable admonition for you and such as you are for it forbiddeth vnder the payne of excōmunication that any beyng a Clearke should leaue of his calling and become a lay man If you meane the seconde Tyronense Concilium I make you the like answere Belike your collector hath deceyued you but what if it were so This onely might be gathered that vnlesse Bishops then had bene welthie there should not haue néeded a decrée against feasting If our Bishops should make the like now it would be thought they did it for sparing And I thinke that and such like Canons méete not onely for Bishops but for all states and degrées of men Riches and costly furniture bée no impediment to a godly man for doing
confesse to haue bene in these offices which notwithstanding you speake of your owne head without any warrant of Gods worde argueth that there maye be superioritie among the ministers of the Churche And the degrées of honour that you acknowledge to haue bene among the Apostles quite cast th downe your confused qualitie As for your saluing the matter in saying that this chiefetie among the Apostles consisted not in hauing anye superioritie aboue the reste but in laboring c. it may please vnskilfull persons but it will not satisfie men of discr tion and wisdome For it is to be thought that euery one of y e Apostles laboured in their calling to the vttermost of their powers that they suffered whatsoeuer God laide vpon them that they had all giftes most aboundantly necessarie for their functions Wherfore in all these things there was summa aequalitas and no m n sought such preheminence or receyued it being offered vnto him but according to their owne doctrine euery one thought of another better than of 〈◊〉 Wherfore it could not be for this respect but it was for order pollici to a oyde confusion I haue tolde you before why you labour so muche to haue honour and dignitie distributed according to the excellencie of gifts for then you perswade your selfe that the chiefetie would light on your owne necke but you may peraduenture be deceiued Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. tovvards the ende And nowe I adde that you desire this equalitie not bycause you Why y e Admonitors desire equalitie would not rule for it is manifest that you seke it most ambitiously in your maner but bycause you contemne and disdaine to be ruled and to be in subiectiō In deede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to do what you list in your seueral cures without controlement of Prince Bishop or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seeke dominion I speake that I know by experience in some of you T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 2. 3. Now whereas he saith that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule might be in our handes and we might doe what we list and that we seeke to withdrawe our selues from controlement of Prince and Byshop and all first he maye learne if he will that we desire no o r authoritie than that which is to the edifying of the Churche and whiche is grounded of the wo e of God which if any Minister shall abuse to his 〈◊〉 or ambition then he ought to abyde not ely the controlment of y e other Ministers yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the fault And seyng you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the ministers and cleargie (*) An vntruth ▪ for the lawfull authoritie o Bishops and Archbyshops was long be ore came to the Bishops and Archbyshops when as the Pope did exempte his hauelings from the obedience subiec on and iurisdiction of Princes Nowe therefore that we be readie to giue that subiection vnto the prince and offer our selues to the princes correction in things wherein we shall doe amisse doe you thinke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to be disburdened of the Bishops and Archbishops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes Io. Whitgifte Your answere maketh the matter more suspicious for this authoritie you speake of Excessiue authoritie is sought vnder pretence of equalitie which you say ▪ is to the edifying of the Church and grounded of the word of God is as it pleaseth you to interprete it For what so euer you phansie and whatsoeuer authoritie you vsurpe shall haue the same pretence and if the Prince seeke to restraine you or to breake your will you and your Seniors will excommunicate hir if she be of your parishe Fu thermore the greatest preeminence she can haue is to be one of your seigniorie and then must M. Pastor be the chiefe and so in authoritie aboue y e Prince and consequently a Pope but of this more in due place shal be spoken This authoritie which the Bishops and Archbishops now exercise came first from 〈◊〉 authoritie of Byshops Archbishops came not from the 〈◊〉 the Apostolicall Church then from the example of the primitiue Churche for y e space of fiue hundred yeares after the Apostles time Thirdly from the Councels of Nyce Antioche Constantinople and all the beste and purest Councels that euer were And last of all from the authoritie of the Prince and by the consent of this whole Churche and Realme of England therefore not from the Pope who hath rather diminished it by taking all to himselfe than in any respect encreased it Wherfore you also in exempting your self from the authoritie and iurisdiction of the Archbishop and Bishop resist God in his Ministers the Prince in hir officers and the lawes of the Church Realme in their executors And as for your protested obedience it is so enwrapped with conditions and prouisoes as in other places of your booke more plainely appeareth that when it should come to the triall if your platforme were builded it woulde proue as little as uer the Popishe Byshops was in their greatest pride Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 2. The place in the first to the Coloss. vers 1. is this Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ by the vvill of God Timotheus our brother Surely your minde was not of equalitie I thinke when you quoted these places to proue it But it is your vsuall maner without al discretiō iudgement to dally play with the scriptures For what sequele is there in this reason Paule calleth Timothie brother Ergo in all respectes there must be equalitie As though there were not distinction of degrees euen among brethren Io. Whitgifte Magis mutus 〈◊〉 piscis and by his silence the ouersight confessed Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Admonition And (g) Lu. 22. 25. 26. 1. P t. 5. 3. 4. 5. Math. 20. 25. 26. Math. 23. 8 11. 12. Gala. 2. 6. Hebr. 5. 4. Lu. 16. 25. Eze. 34. 4. 2. Cor. 1. 24. as the names of Archbishops Archdeacons Lord bishops Chancelours c. are drawen out of the Popes shop togither with their offices So the gouernment which they vse by the life of the Pope which is the Canon law is Antichristian and diuelishe and contrarie to the scriptures Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 208. Sect. 1. Both of the names and also of the offices of Archbyshops Archdeacons Scriptures wreasted Lorde Byshops c. I haue spoken before sufficiently and fully answered those places quoted in this margent sauyng the. 2. to the Galat. the. 5. to the Hebrues Ezech. 34. 2. Cor. 1. for these places haue bene founde out since and thoughte meete
hande of God from whome it certaynely commeth hereof we may gather that nothing is added or taken from the dignitie of it by him by whome it is ministred And therefore among men if an Epistle be sent so that the hande and seale be knowne it skilleth not who or what manner of person caryeth it euen so it is sufficient for vs to knowe the hande and seale of the Lorde in his Sacramentes by whomesoeuer they be deliuered Hereby is the errour of the Donatistes confuted who measured the vertue and woorthynesse of the Sacrament by the worthynesse of the minister Such be now a dayes our Anabaptistes which denie vs to be rightly baptized bycause we were baptized by wicked and idolatrous persons in the Popos Churche And therefore they furiously vrge rebaptisation agaynst whose folly we shall sufficiently be defended if we thinke that we were baptised not in the name of any man but in the name of the Father of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost and therefore baptisme not to be of man but of God by vvhome soeuer it be ministred Haec Caluinus Undoubtedly if this your assertion were true there had néede be some generall rebaptisation throughout all Christendome as well of men as of children for certayne it is that that Sacrament hath bene ministred to many by such as be in no degree of the ministerie Your opinion of a Deacon that he should nothing differ from a minister is very straunge and vnheard of in any writer olde or newe Shew any authour any example any Scripture that proueth or alloweth it Diaconus and Presbyter or Sacerdos be distinct in all Authours But I know wherefore this is affirmed of you euen to stoppe a gappe but it will not serue I will say no more the opinion is very absurde and vnlearned contrarie to the Scriptures and all learned Authours Neyther do you shew any reason of your Paradoxe which you ought to do seing it is Contra opinionem omnium contrarie to all mens opinions not one excepted Agaynst baptising by laye men in tyme of necessitie you haue no Scripture But Baptisme by Lay men not condemned us Scripture for the allowing of it you haue the authoritie of learned men euen such as were farre from the opinion of Augustine in condemning infantes not baptized as namely Zuinglius who also in the place before recited sufficiently answered whatsoeuer is here by you barely without any kinde of proofe set downe You haue also examples thereof in Ecclesiasticall histories Socrates Lib. 1. cap. Examples of baptisme by lay men 14. and Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 17. wryte That Alexander Bishop of Alexandria togither with the rest of the Clergie determined that baptisme which was ministred by Athanasius beyng Socrates but a childe to certayne other children to be true baptisme and not to be itterated bicause Sozomen after examination he was founde to haue vsed the woordes and right forme of baptisme hanasius beyng a childe baptised Whereby it is playne that the opinion of the Church at that tyme was the minister not to be of the substance or being of baptisme There is recited a storie in the Centuries Cent. 2. cap. 6. of a Iewe baptized in the case of necessitie by Laye men and with sande bicause there was no water Afterwarde the Bishop of Alexandria beyng demaunded of the matter De sententia Ecclesiae respondit baptizatum esse Iudaeum si modò aqua denuò perfunderetur He answered by the iudgement of the Churche that the Iewe was baptized if so be he were agayne sprinkled with water This argueth that the Church then made no doubt in the respect of the persons that ministred this Baptisme but onely bycause there lacked water This storie is cited out of Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 37. and alleaged by the Authours of the Centuries to proue the simplicitie of the Churche at that tyme aboute Baptisme neyther do they in any respect shewe any misliking of it And surely I know not wherein this opinion of yours doth differ from the Donatistes or Anabaptistes except it be in this that you speake of Laye men and they of Ministers And whereas you say that the minister is one of the chiefe partes and as it were of the The Replier in so weightie a matter vseth no proofes lyfe of the Sacrament In so weightie a cause and greate a matter it had bene well if you had vsed some authoritie of Scripture or testimonie of learned Authour for so farre as I can reade the opinion of all learned men is that the essentiall forme and as it were the lyfe of Baptisme is to Baptise in the name of the Father of the Sonne The essential poynt of baptisme and of the holy Ghoste which forme beyng obserued the Sacrament remayneth in full force and strength of whom soeuer it be ministred or howsoeuer by Ceremonies or other additiōs it is corrupted This I am sure is the answere of Zuinglius both in his booke De Baptismo and in his Elench contra Anabap. to the Anabaptists who would haue them all to be rebaptised that haue bene baptised in the Popes Churche And the same is the opinion of M. Caluine in the place before recited and of all other learned men that I haue redde And certaynely if the boyng of the Sacrament depended vpon man in any respect The force of baptisme 〈◊〉 not vpon 〈◊〉 but vpon God 1. Cor. 3. Confusion disorder is not maynteyned we were but in a miserable case for we should be alwayes in doubte whether wée were rightly baptized or no but it is most true that the force strength of the Sacrament is not in the man be he minister or not minister be he good or euill but in God himself in his spirite in his frée effectuall operation And therefore sayeth S. Paule VVhat is Paule what is Apollo c. This I speake not to bring cōfusiō into the Church for as I sayde before let men take héede that they vsurpe not an office wherevnto they be not called for God will call them to an account for so doyng but to teache a truth to take a yoke of doubtfulnesse from mens consciences and to resist an error not much differing from Donatisme and Anabaptisme Chap. 5. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag 114. Sect. 1. For although part of the institution in that the name of the holy Trinitie is called vpon be obserued yet if the whole institution be not it is no more a Sacrament than the Papists communion was which celebrating it in one kinde toke a parte of the institution and lefte the other Io. Whitgifte If you can shew as manifest Scripture that the minister is of the substance of Baptisme as I can do that the cuppe is one of the essentiall partes of the supper then it is something that you say but if there be no likelyhode betwixt the one and the other than can you not want iuste reprehension for so
speaking of Christians and it is a straunge matter that you dare be bolde to grounde any point of gouernment or doctrine vpon so simple slender coniectures For what reason call you this Paule Barnabas did appoynt by election elders in euery congregation c. but it is not lyke they did appoint diuerse ministers or Bishops which preached in euery congregation c. therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached other elders c. First I say that this argument doth consist only vpō a vaine cōiecture for it might be that the number of Preachers were suche that euery congregation where Paule Barnabas had to do might haue mo preachers than one But Lorde what moueth you to play the Sophister in so serious a cause so to dally in a matter so manifest for how can you conclude by any thing here spoken that Paule and Barnabas did ordeyne mo than one Pastor or Presbyter in one congregation for this that is sayde that they ordeyned Elders or ministers in euery congregation doth not importe that they ordeyned mo than one in euery congregation but that they ordeyned for diuers congregations diuerse ministers that is for euery congregation a Pastor Doth not the Apostle S. Paule ad Tit. 1. vse the like kinde of speache when he sayde Tit. 1. vnto him For this cause I left thee at Creta c. Vt constituas opidatim presbyteros c Where it is manifest as I sayde before that he meaneth Bishops and Pastors and yet his intent was not that Titus should appoynt for euery congregation many Pastors This is méere cauilling but to cut of all other doubtes M. Caluine is sufficient to determine this controuersie who expounding this place of the. 14. Acto doth vnderstand it of Pastors only Preachers His woordes be these Presbyteros bic vocari interpretor Caluine quibus iniunctum erat docendi munus I interprete those here to be called Presbyteros vnto whome the office of preaching was committed And a litle after Now whereas Luke sayth that they were appoynted ouer seuerall churches thereof may the difference betwene their office and the office of the Apostles be gathered for the Apostles had in no place any certayne abiding but went from place to place alwayes to found new churches but Pastors were euery where addicted to their proper Churches So saith Brentius likewise Constituerunt Brentius per singulas Ecclesias Presbyteros quos aliàs scriptura Episcopos aliàs Pastores vocat They appoynted thorough euery congregation Elders whom the scripture sometimes calleth Bishops sometimes Pastors So that this place of the Actes speaketh not one woorde of your Seniors And therefore you cannot expound it by that in the. 1. Tim. 5. though it serued your purpose as it doth not For Luke to my remembrance no where in the Actes doth take this woorde Presbyter for any other than such as haue authoritie to preach the worde minister the sacramēts except he meaneth y e elders of the Iewes Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefely three Ministers Preachers or Pastors of whom before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Theyr office was to q Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 12. 28. gouerne the church with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correct and to order all thinges apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 113. Somevvhat past the midst To proue that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Churche with the rest of the ministers to consulte to admonish to correct and to order al things apperteyning to the state of the congregation you alleage Act. 14. the. 1. Corinth 12. In the 14. of the Actes it is writtē that Paule Barnabas ordeyned Elders at Antioche in euery Churche but there is not one worde spoken of their office therefore that text serueth not your purpose You haue alleaged this selfe same place twice before to proue that no minister of the worde ought to be placed in any congregation but by consent of the people that the election of ministers ought to be by the congregation now you alleage it to proue the office of your Seniors can it both be meant of Seniors and of the ministers of the worde being as you say distinct offices will you thus dally with the scripture and make it a nose of waxe as the Papistes terme it to wreast and wryth it which way you list here you must needes confesse eyther contradiction in your selues or falsification T. C. Pag. 138. Tovvardes the ende But M. Doctor sayth that there is no mention made of the office of such an Elder therefore that place maketh nothing to proue that there should be such Elders in euery congregation so M. Doctor write he careth not what he wryte Belike he thinketh the credite of his degree of Doctorship will giue waight to that which is light and pith to that which is frothe or else he woulde neuer answere thus For then I will if this be a good reason say that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place describe the office of the Pastor or Bishop which preacheth the worde therefore that place proueth not that in euery congregation there should be a bishop or a Pastor Besides that M. Doctor taketh vp the Authours of the Admonition for reasoning negatiuely of the testimonie of all the Scriptures and yet he reasoneth negatiuely of one only sentence in the Scripture (*) An vntruth for he maketh no such conclusion For the would cōclude that for so much as there is no duety of a Senior described in that place therefore there is no duetie at all and consequently no Senior Io. Whitgifte The Authors of the Admonition Fol. 112. to proue that the office of the Senior was to gouerne the Churche with the rest of the ministers to c nsulte to admonish to correct and to order all thinges apperteyning to the state of the congregation alleage the. 14. of the Actes vers 4. 1. Cor. 12. vers 28. I declare in mine Answere how vnaptly these places are alleaged for that purpose beyng not one woorde there spoken of any such office of Seniors as it may appeare in the woordes themselues beyng placed before Nowe whether I make any suche reason as you frame in my name or no let the Reader iudge The places be quoted in the Admonition to proue the office of Seniors and not to proue that there were Seniors in euery congregation and you being not able to salue that their vnskilfulnesse make M. Doctor speake what you please and shifte of the matter after your accustomed manner I make not that conclusion you charge me with if I do set downe my woordes conuince me
according to the vsuall and receiued custome There is no doubt but that he alludeth vnto the order of the olde church as also in other places he frameth his talke according to the knowen and vsuall manner So that that excommunication vsed in the churche of the Corinthians can in no respect be the practise of the rule of Christ in either of the places neither yet according vnto it wherefore you write without iudgement you wote not what S. Paule did publikely excommunicate in the presence of the whole churche and vsed them as witnesses of his iust dealing but his wordes be playne that the right power of excommunication remained in him selfe When S. Paule sayth vnto the Corinthians Expurgate vetus fermentum c. purge out the olde leauen he speaketh not of the incostuous Corinthian but exhorteth them 1. Cor. 5. to newnes of life you shall heare howe M. Caluine expoundeth that place Bicause he had borowed a similitude of leauen he reteyneth it still although he doth digresse from the Calui 1. Cor. 5. matter which he hath in hande vnto a generall doctrine for he speaketh no more of the incestuous persone but generally exhorteth them vnto puritie of life c. Lorde howe carelesse you are in peruerting the true sense and meaning of the scripture that you may violently drawe them to your purpose When he sayth Put away that wicked man from among you he doth not will them to excommunicate him but to shunne and auoyde his company and not to suffer him to come among them bycause he was excommunicate And as he in this place moueth them to a detestation of him so in that place of the second Cor. 2. after his repentance receiuing again into the churche he exhorteth them to embrace him and to loue him This may and ought to be done the authoritie of excommunication resting in one for the people without such exhortations will hardly conceiue a good opinion of hym whom they haue knowen to be so greuous an offendour Wherefore the Apostle here moueth them to forgiue him to loue him he doth not giue them any authoritie to deliuer him from the bonde of excommunication for that he did himselfe as it may euidently appeare by the circumstance of the place Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 113. Lin. 10. I reade in the fift chapter of the first to the Corinthians that the incestuous Corinthian was excōmunicated publikely in the presence of the whole congregation But I reade neither of Senior nor Deacon called as officers to the same S Paule himselfe sayeth Paule alone had lus excōmunicandi Ego quidem vt absens corpore presens spiritu iam decreui tanquam presens vt is c. I truly as absent in the bodye but present in spirite haue determined as present that he c. Which manifestly argueth that Ius excommunicandi was in Paule not 1. Corinth 5. in the rest But all is scripture that you speake howe farre soeuer it is from the true meaning and sense of the scripture T. C. pag. 147. Sect. 1. Nowe wheras M. Doctor vpon those wordes of S. Paule that he being absent in body and present in spirite had determined c. concludeth that the right of excommunication was in S. Paule and not in the rest it is as much as if he should saye S. Paule (*) Maledict glossa quae corumpit textum as muche as laye in hym excommunicated therefore S. Paule excommunicated or S. Paule excommunicated therfore the church did not For what if S. Paule did excommunicate him so muche as laye in hym should he therfore haue bene excommunicated if the church of Corinthe the minister there would haue admitted hym to the supper and not abstayne from samiliar companying with him You will saye he should haue bene bounde in heauen and before God although the churche of Corinthe had not put him forth It is true that the Apostles denunciation of Gods vengeaunce vpon the impenitent sinner is ratified in heauen and so should he also haue bene ▪ if S. Paule had sayde nothing and yet S. Paule did not excommnnicate the incestuous persone but so much as laye in him and as farre as his ryght stretched not being therefore yet excommunicated by S. Paule it followeth that the church had a stroke in the excommunication Io. Whitgifte S. Paule did excōmunicate him if the church of Corinthe had kept him in amōgst them notwithstanding yet had he bene excommunicated before God and they should haue shewed thē selues to haue bene a stubborne rebellious people In déede if you Excommunication is more than excluding from the eternall societie take excōmunication for excluding from the externall societie of the church only then the people if they be stubborne wilful may stoppe hinder the executiō of that discipline but in so doing they forget their dutie But if by excommunication you vnderstande bynding in heauen as you ought to do then had the incestuous persone bene truely excommunicated though both the minister and the people had sayde the contrary Wherefore it is true that the ryght of excommunicating remayned in Paule though the people did giue their consent vnto it by secluding hym from their companye and from the sacramentes Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 147. tovvardes the end Againe to proue that the church hath nothing to do with excōmunication it is not enough to say that S. Paule had the right of excommunication But you should haue shewed that he on ly had opinions shoulde no otherwise be put to silence than by excommunication and ought no further to be punished doe not reason sufficiently and aptly For there is one dutie of the Bishop and another of the Magistrate Paule wryting vnto Titus doth not intreat of the office of a magistrate but sheweth what is conuenient for a Bishop Although a moderate meane is alwayes best that they which are not past care be not so much kept in order by force as by ecclesiasticall discipline But you thinke your owne worde to be a sufficient warrant agaynst all men You may well studie the wordes of the Scripture but me thinke you do not greatly passe for the right vnderstanding of them Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 113. Lin. 4. Basilius Magnus in his seconde booke de Officijs cap. 27. testifyeth the same T. C. Pag. 148. Lin. 32. As touching Basiles place in the seconde booke of Offices when the booke commeth forth and is printed then it shall be answered as for me I know of none such that is extant now Io. Whitgifte I confesse the name to be mistaken it is an ouersight and yet no greater than In his Epistle Sect. 8 ▪ yours is in alledging Iosias for Ezechias And both this and that which followeth of Theodorete for Theodotus were corrected as well in the bookes of the first edition as in the seconde before I
Pag. 152. Sect. 2. And whereas Master Doctor sayth that the office of the Deacons is not onely to prouide for the poore but also to preach and minister the Sacraments I haue shewed before that it both not apperteync vnto them to doe eyther the one or the other For the proofe whereof this place of the Romaines quoted by the Admonition is verie fitte and most proper For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which not contenting themselues with their owne vocations did breake into that which apperteyned vnto others as it the hande shoulde take vpon it the office of the eye or of some other member of the bodie and therefore Saint Paule doth as it were bounde and poynt the lymittes of euerie office in the Church and so placeth the Deacons office onely in the prouision for the poore This one thing I will adde to that matter that if the Apostles whiche had such excellent and passing gyftes did finde themselues preaching of the worde and attending to prayer not able to prouide for the poore but thought it necessarie to discharge themselues of that office to the ende they might doe the other effectually and frutefully he that shall doe both nowe must eyther do none well and profitably or else he must haue greater giftes than the Apostles had Io. Whitgifte I haue proued before manifestly that it perteyned to the office of a Deacon to Tract 14. preach and to minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and to helpe in other businesse perteyning to the Church I haue alledged both manifest examples out of the scripture to iustifie the same and the practise of the primitiue Church togither with the testimonies both of the auncient and late wryters and vndoubtedly you are dryuen to a great streight when you are inforced to vse this place of the. 12. to the Romaines to proue the contrary for though it were ment of Deacons yet doth it not proue in any respect your purpose neyther can you frame any argument of it to that ende Neither Steuen nor Philip when they being Deacons preached and the one ministred the Sacrament of Baptisme also did breake into that whiche apperteyned not vnto them being incident to their office when they be therevnto called The Apostles were occupied in planting Churches in going from place to place to spreade abrode the worde of God and therefore they coulde not so conueniently prouide for the posre but the Deacons hauing no such occasion of traveling and remouing from place to place might very well both preach the Gospell and prouide for the poore Neither can I conceiue any reason to the contrarie for I thinke they spent no greate tyme in turning ouer manie volumes to prouide for their Sermons bicause God gaue to them extraordinarie gyftes of knowledge vtterance and suche lyke necessarie for their function And if you speake of Deacons nowe I say vnto you that vnder a Christian Prince in the tyme of peace that part of their Some part of the Deacons office not so needfull in the time of christian magistrats office to prouide for the poore is not necessarie séeing that by other lawfull and politike meanes they may much better be prouided for Wherfore glorie as much as you will in your owne witte and reason yet in these heauenly diuine things your reasons shall proue but vaine and vntowarde Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision Admonition Againe in the olde Church euery (w) Phil. 1. 1. Iohn 13. 27 Acts. 6. 5. 1. Tim. 3. 8. congregation had their Deacons Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 120. O how aptly you haue alledged the scriptures to proue that euery congregation had their Deacons In the first to the Philip. these be Whether deacons were in euery congregation the wordes Paule and Timotheus c. to all the Saincts vvhiche are at Philippi vvith the Bishops and Deacons Paule Timotheus salute the Bishops and Deacons which are at Philippi Therfore in those dayes euerie congregation had their Deacons a straunge kinde of reasoning you might well haue thus concluded Ergo at Philippi there was Deacons But surely this argument is to much out of Unapt arguments square there was Deacons at Philippi therefore euerie congregation had their Deacons In the. 13. of S. Iohn verse 27. these be the wordes And after the soppe Sathan entered into him then sayde Iesus vnto him that thou doest do quickly After Supper Satan entered into Iudas and Iesus sayde vnto him that thou doest do quickly Therefore euerie Cōgregation had their Deacons No maruel though your margent be pestred with Scriptures when you take libertie to make ex quolibet quidlibet Peraduenture you meane that Iudas was a Deacon as he was not but an Apostle bycause he caryed the bagge and that some of the Apostles thought that Christ had bid him giue some what to the poore belike whosoeuer giueth a pennie to the poore at his masters commaundement is with you a Deacon In the sixt of the Actes we learne that there were chosen seuen Deacons but there is not one worde to proue that euery congregation had their Deacons In the thirde of the first to Timothie S. Paule sheweth what qualities and conditions a Deacon ought to haue but not one worde of Deacons being in euery Congregation This is great audacitie thus manifestly to wring the Scriptures without all colour or shewe of reason T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. vlt. The second point is touching that there were Deacons in euery Church which is wel proued of the Admonition both by the place of the Philippians and of the Acts for although it be not there sayd that the deacons were in euery church yet forsomuch as the same vse of thē was in all Churches whiche was in Ierusalem and at Philippes and for that the Apostles as hath beene before touched labouring after the vniformitte of the Church ordeyned the same officers in all Churches the proofe of one is the proofe of all and the shewing that there were Deacons in one Church is the shewing in all The place which they alledge out of the first to Timothe is of all other most proper for S. Paule there describing not how the Church of Ephesus but simplie and generally how the Church must be gouerned reckeneth there the order of Deacons whereunto may be added the continuall practise of the Church long after the Apostles tymes which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these wordes the Bishop Elders and Deacons of suche a Church and vnto the Bishops Elders and Deacons of such a Church And by that it is so oftentymes sayde in the councels where the Churches assembled that there were so many Bishops so many Elders so many deacons Io. Whitgifte And I say againe that they be most vnapt reasons for the Deacons office was not so troublesome but that the Deacons of one Citie might serue all the Churches and congregations belonging vnto the same neyther haue you read eyther in scripture or any auncient
churche is not able to fynde a Curate as he termeth hym and a Deacon I haue before shewed intreatyng of the Seniors that the churches in the Apostles tymes myght best haue sayd this beyng poore and persecuted although I see not why the churche may not haue a Deacon or Deacons if mo be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors Io. Whitgifte It is the Admonition that sayeth Euery paryshe cannot be at that caste to haue bothe Wherevpon I doe but aske this question why they require them both in euery paryshe if euerye paryshe cannot bee at the coste to haue them both Bylike you make small accompte of the Admonition in that you read it not or else you haue forgotten that this question is demaunded vpon their confession But in deede I am of that opinion too and haue before answered your obiection of the Churches in the Apostles tymes as for our Collectors they be suche as put not the Churche to one halfepenye charge so could not your Deacons do Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision Admonition For they (u) Pontifi tit The ordring of deacons may baptise in the presence of a Byshop or priest or in their absence if necessitie so requyre minister the other Sacrament lykewyse reade the holy Scriptures and homilies in the congregation instructe the youth in the Catechisme and also preache if he be commaunded by the Byshop Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 119. Sect. 2. I knowe not what you meane by your Ponti tit in the margent of your booke but if you meane the booke entituled the forme and māner of making and consecrating Byshops c. nowe allowed in this Churche of Englande then do you vntruely reporte it for there is no mention of baptising in the presence of a Bishop or Priest neyther yet of ministring the other Sacramente in their absence if necessitie require onely the booke sayeth that a Deacon may baptise or preache if he be thervnto admitted by the Byshop and that he may so doe by the worde of God I haue proued before As for reading the holye Scriptures and Homelies in the Congregation also for instructing the youth in the Catechisme who doubteth but that a Deacon may doe them Admonition The Deaconshyp (y) 1. Tim. 3. 8. must not be confounded with the ministerie nor the Collectours for the poore may not vsurpe the Deacons office but he that hath an (z) Rom. 12. 7. 1. Cor. 7. 20 office must looke to his office and euery man must keepe hymselfe within the bondes and limites of his owne vocation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. 2. Neither doe we confounde them and yet Paule in the place by you quoted in the margent speaketh not one worde of confounding or not confounding these offices So the poore be prouided for it forceth not whether prouision be made by Deacons or by Collectours by the one it may be well done by the other it cannot be done in all places as the state is nowe But shew any Scripture to proue that the poore must onely be prouided for by Deacons else not Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this ¶ Of the offices of Widowes and their continuance Chap. 2. T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 2. There remayneth to speake of the Widowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of three score yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill whiche myght ryse y sclaunderous tongues it they had bene yonger These as they were nouryshed at the charges of the churche being poore so did they serue the churche in attending vpon poore straungers and the poore whiche were sicke in the churche whereof they were widowes (*) This will not agree with the doctrine you taught before Pag. 1. 41. Now although there is not so great vse of these widowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein this order of widowes was instituted parte of the whiche necessitie grewe both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution and by the great heare of those easte countryes wherevpon the washing and supplyng of their feete was required yet to so muche as there are poore which are sicke in euery churche I do not see howe a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendaunce of them in their syckenesse and other infirmities than this which sainct Paule apoynteth that there should be if there can bee any gotten godly poore widowes of y e age which S. Paule apointeth which should attend vpon such For it there be any such poore wydowes of that age destitute of all frendes it is manifest that she must needes iyue of the charge of the churche and seing she must needes doe so it is better she should doe some duty for it vnto the churche agayne than the churche should be at a newe charge to fynde others to attende vpon those which are sycke and destitute of kepers seing that there can be none so fitte for that purpose as those women which saynt Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that (*) This condition cānot agree with so precise cōmaundement as you haue made it before if such may be gotten we ought also to keepe that order of widowes in the churche styll I knowe that there be learned men which thinke otherwyse but I stande vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vpon the opinions of men be they neuer so wel learned and if the matter also should be tried by the iudgement of men I am able to shewe the iudgement of as learned as this age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widowes is perpetuall and ought to bee where it may be had and where such widowes are founde Indeede they are more rare nowe than in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those whiche had the gifte of continencie did abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were dryuen to flye than the estate of those which were maryed Io. Whitgifte Here you are taken in your owne trappe and fayne you would wrynge your The Replie tripped and caught in his owne nette Pag. 141. selfe out if you could tell which waye for if all thinges conteyned in S. Paule his first Epistle to Timothie bee perpetuall and must be kept vnder the great charge that be gaue vnto Timothie in the sixt chapter as you haue before affirmed then of necessitie the churche must needes still reteyne wydowes You knowe not in the worlde howe to auoyde this absurditie and therefore some tymes you saye that nowe there is not so great vse of them with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded c. and by and by you beginne to call that backe and saye that you do not see howe a better and more conuenient
his appoyntment himselfe sitting as moderator and this was in a matter of fayth But be it as you say though I can finde no suche thing in the firste Action of that Councell dothe it followe that bycause Emperours cōfirmed ordinaunces that were made in Synodes and Councelles therefore they haue no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes surely I vnderstande not howe you can make any suche conclusion for as I sayde before it is a poynt of greate wisedome and singular care to prouide that weightie matters in controuersie be determined with great deliberation and aduise of suche as be most skilfull in them But this can be no argument to proue that Ciuill Magistrates may make no orders in the Churche or Ecclesiasticall Lawes for euen those orders and lawes whiche were made in suche Councels were made by the authoritie of the Emperour as dothe very well appeare in the same Councels for when the matters were concluded in the Councell of Chalcedon the Bishops brust out into these voyces It is a true and a right iudgement long lyfe to the Senate many Conc. Chalced ▪ Euagr lib. 2. cap. 4. yeares to the Emperour Whereby it appeareth that the chiefe authoritie in suche Councels was giuen to the Emperour and that he was esteemed as the chiefe iudge which appeareth also at large in the seconde booke of Euagrius The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. The practise of this he mighte haue also moste playnely seene in Ambrose who woulde by 5. Lib. epist. 2. no meanes suffer that the causes of the Churches should be debated in the Princes consistorie or Another reason of the Papists agaynst the authoritie of the ciuil magistrate courte but would haue them handled in the Churche by those that had the gouernment of the Churche and therefore excuseth himselfe to the Emperour Ualentiman for that beyng conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill courte he came not Io. Whitgifte This is an other of M. Hardinges reasons agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters and he vsed it against the Apologie but the answere made to the same in the defense of the Apologie by that reuerende Father 6. Parte 14. Chap. 5. Diuision the Bishop of Sarisburie is learned and true the summe whereof is this The Emperour Ualentinian at that tyme when Ambrose wrote this Epistle vnto him was very yong he was not yet baptized he knewe not the principles of Christes Why Ambrose refused to come at the Emperours commaundement Religion he was an Arian Heretike he woulde haue thruste out the Christians and placed Heretikes in their Churches he thought it was lawfull for him to do what him listed c. For this cause Ambrose refused him to be his iudge so that he did not mislike his authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall but onely his wilfull ignorance and his tyrannie for that he knewe his iudgement was corrupted and not indifferent And if you had marked the beginning of his Epistle you might haue perceyued that he alleageth for his chiefe defense and excuse for not appearing the decrée of Theodosius the Father of Ualentinian so that in not comming or appearing at the Emperours summon he did but challenge the priuiledge graunted before of godly Emperours vnto the Cleargie And it is euident that the learned and auncient Fathers haue committed the The auncient Fathers haue committed the deciding of controuersies to Emperours deciding of matters of controuersie to Emperours as it appeareth in Athanasius his seconde Apologie where he committing himselfe and his cause to the Emperour sayeth thus VVe require that the Emperours moste godly and most religious Maiestie may haue the hearyng of the same matter before whome we may open both our churches right and also our owne for we hope that his godlinesse vnderstanding our reasons will Athanasius Apol. 2. neuer condemne vs. Likewise S. Augustine Contra Epist Parme. Lib. 1. speakyng to the Donatistes August contra epist. Parmen lib. 1. sayeth Is it not lawfull for the Emperour or his deputie to giue sentence in a matter of religion wherefore then went your Ambassadoures to the Emperour why made they him iudge of their cause Sozomene Lib. 4. Cap. 16. sayeth that the Emperour commaunded that tenne Bishops Sozom. lib. 4. 16. of the East and ten of the VVeste chosen by the Councell shoulde repayre to his courte and open to him the decrees of the Councell that he might not only consider whether they were agreed according to the Scriptures but that he might further determine and conclude what were best to be done Socrates Lib. 5. Cap. 10. sayeth that Theodosius the Emperour for the appeasing Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. of contention cōmaunded an assemblie of Bishops best learned to appeare before him and eche parte to write a confession of their faith and religion the which being done at a day appointed they came to the Courte and deliuered vp their writinges to the Emperour who after earnest praiers made perusing the writings that were deliuered rent in pieces the confessions made by the Arians and Eunomians and allowed onely and receyued the confession of the Catholikes The practise therefore of the authoritie of Princes in Ecclesiasticall matters euen in determining and iudging controuersies in Religion you might haue learned by these examples in Ambrose tyme. The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. vlt. And by whome can the matters and orders of the Churche be better ordeyned than by the ministers of the Churche And if that be a good reason of M. Doctor in the fortie and seuenth Page that the Bishops ought therefore to ordeyne ministers bycause they are best able to iudge An other argu ment of the Papistes to the same purpose of the learning and abilitie of those which are the fittest it is also as good reason that therefore the ministers and gouernours of the Churche should appoynt and decree of suche ceremonies and orders as perteyne to the churche for bycause it is to be supposed that they can beste iudge of those matters bestowing their studies that wayes and further best vnderstanding the state of the church aboute the which they are wholly occupied Io. Whitgifte This also is a reason of M. Hardinges in the same cause but it onely preueth that it is moste conuenient and necessarie that Bishops and ministers of the Church The debating and deciding of matters in religion by bishops doth not derogate from the princes authoritie whyle they he learned and godly may haue the debating and deciding of matters in religion neyther dothe this derogate any thing from the authoritie of the Prince in the same causes we sée that matters in lawe are determined by iudges lawyers so be other ciuill matters by wise and prudent officers in like manner and yet is not the authoritie of the Prince thereby abridged but what if all the ministers of the Churche or moste of them be corrupt and vngodly
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
by the ciuill magistrate I graunt the ministers haue also to punish vice for as the ciuill magistrates punishe lighter faultes with some penaltie of monie or losse of member so the church and the minister especially with the church hath to punishe faultes by reprehensions and rebukes And as the ciuill magistrate punisheth greater faultes by death so the minister with other which haue interest hath with y e sworde of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious and to cut them from the churche as the other doth from the common wealth And if it be a helpe to the ministers office that he shoulde meddle with ciuill punishments why should it not be a help vnto the Magistrates office that he should excommunicate and do other thinges perteyning to the Ecclesiasticall discipline Io. Whitgifte In what woordes doth M. Caluine confute it or by what reason you cut of the matter very shorte in that booke and chapt of his Instit. which you haue quoted in the margent there is no such reason either alleaged or confuted Only in the. 9. Section he speaketh agaynst the temporall dominion of the Popish Bishops whiche deriue their excessiue power not from the ciuill Magistrate but fcō the Pope cloking it with this pretence that it is an ornament and beutie to the kingdome of Christ which is far from any thing alleaged by me why it is conuenient that our Bishops haue ciuill authoritie committed vnto them I would gladly heare a reason either of the Scripture or any other authenticall It is not so lawfull for the Prince to preach c. as for a minister to vse corporall punishment wryter why it should be as lawfull for a ciuill Magistrate to preache minister the Sacraments and excōmunicate as for the Ecclesiasticall minister to vse corporall punishment it was lawfull for Samuell to kill Agag being the office of Saule but it was not lawfull for Saule to offer vp sacrifices that being the office of Samuell The office and function of a mynister is not in his owne power to commit to whom he list but the office of the ciuill Magistrate may be cōmitted to whom soeuer it shal 1. Sam. 15. please him best to like of and to thinke most fitte for gouernment 1. Sam. 3. True it is that excōmunication is an Ecclesiastical censure which the mynister Excommunication not the only punishment vsed in the Church Gualter may exercise if the state of the Church will beare it for reprehension is a discipline lawfull for euery Christian to vse but it is not the onely censure for the ciuill magistrate may appoynt other as shall be to the state of the Church moste conuenient You know what M. Gualter sayeth 1. Cor. 5. As the Romaine Bishops vpon this place and such like haue grounded their excommunication which is the most effectuall instrument of their tyrannie whereby they haue cruelly vexed not onely priuate men but also Kinges and Emperours and haue bene the causes of ciuill warres and sedition euen so the Anabaptists whilest they perswade themselues that there can be no discipline without excōmunication they trouble the churches euery where and make thēselues laughing stockes to all the world c. Let euery church follovve that kinde of discipline vvhich is most meete for the countrie vvherein they liue and vvhich may be moste commodious in respect of time and place and let no man here rashly prescribe vnto an other or seeke to binde all men to one and the same forme Of old time there hath bene other kinde of punishments than either reprehensiōs or excōmunication as it may appeare euen in that Canon attributed to the Apostles which you haue before rehearsed where the punishment appoynted is depriuation as it is also in the most of the other Canons and in diuerse other councels You say that if it be a helpe to the ministers office that he should meddle with the ciuill punishmēts why should it not be a helpe to the magistrates office that he should excommunicate c. The answere is soone made The Magistrate may do that by corporall punishment that the minister can not do by Ecclesiasticall discipline neither is there any man so desperate whom the magistrate by his authoritie may not brydle but such is y e time now that fewe regarde the greatest censures of the Church Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. And whereas M. Doctor sayeth they may not be husband men craftes men c. and yet may haue ciuill offices I thinke far otherwise that although neyther be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable than the other For seing after the ministerie of the worde there is no calling vnder the sunne weightier which requireth greater exercise of the minde than the office-of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauie burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weight of this burthen to laye some lighter charge of exercising a handy crafte than to breake his backe with the charge of a ciuill Magistrate Io. Whitgifte These wdrldly affayres of husbandrie occupations c. must néedes withdrawe him from his booke so make him more vnapt to do his dutie and they be not at all incident to his office nor méete for his calling but the Ciuill offices that I speake of be both méete for his calling perteyning to discipline and helpes to his office function as I haue sayde wherefore they be so farre from breaking his backe that they make the rest of his burthen a great deale the easier Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 3. And whereas in the pollicie of M. Doctor it seemeth a furtherance to the Gospell to ioyne these togither which was also the pollicie of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath seemed farre otherwise which I doubt not did therfore separate the ministerie from this pompe which is commendable in the ciuill magistrate least the efficacie and power of the simplicitie of the worde of God and of the ministerie should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell due vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these glorious shewes And least whilest the Minister haue the word in one hande and the swordem the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences ▪ of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubte with themselues whether these are and outwarde shewe of the minister caried some stroke with them in beleuing the worde Io. Whitgifte One of your reasons conteyned in this place in effect is this If ministers shoulde enioy ciuill functions men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto these shewes but that ought they not to do therefore c. I denie your Maior as a fonde and vaine imagination
a little after hee sayeth That hee coulde not omitte those businesse withoute the omittyng of his dutye To the same effecte dothe he speake in that Treatise that is among his Episiles in number an hundreth and ten where he desyreth the people that they woulde not moleste hym for the space of fyue dayes wyth theyr worldely matters by reason of certayne busynesse commytted vnto hym as it appeareth in these woordes It pleaseth mee and you for the care of the scriptures whych the brethren and fathers my fellowe Byshops dydde vouchesafe to laye vppon mee in Ang. epi. 110. the Councells of Numidia and Carthage for the space of fyue dayes no man shoulde trouble mee These thynges were propounded you were contente youre decree and consente was rehersed it was kepte but a small tyme and afterwardes you did violently brust in vnto mee neyther coulde I bee suffered to doe that whyche I woulde In the forenoone and in the after noone I am troubled with mennes busynesse I desyre you for Chrystes sake to suffer me to committe the care of my troubles to Eradius this yong man and prieste whome thys daye in the name of Christ I appoynt to be your bishop and my successour Possidonius nameth no elders but speaketh onely of Augustine and whosoeuer shall with diligence pervse the nintéenth chapter of Possidonius shall be enforced to confesse that he meaneth Augustine was occupyed as well in ciuill as ecclesiasticall matters and in determinyng of them as in writyng of letters for them or in giuyng of counsell Wherefore this example of Augustine is moste fitly alleaged of the Bishop of Sarum and manyfestly declareth what was the vse in his dayes touching suche matters Chap. 3. the. 15. Diuision The Bishop of Sarū in the defense of the Apol. in the. 5. parte 4. chap. 2. sect T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 2. And for the truth of thys matter that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill affayres (*) But you shall not fynde him contrary to him selfe as you surmyse I will appeale to no other than to the Bishop himselfe who doth assume playnly the same that the admonition here affirmeth Io. Whitgifte In that place the Bishop of Sarisburie speaketh onely of the Pope who vsurpeth M. Iewell speaketh not againste ciuill o ces in ministers simply but allowed them by his owne practise the whole and full authoritie of a secular Prince and doth chalenge the same iure diuino by the authoritie of Gods worde He speaketh not of suche Bishops to whome so muche ciuill authoritie is committed by the Prince as maye serue to the correction of vice and good and quyet gouernmente of the Churche forsomuch as he did himselfe exercyse the same And surely it is not well done of you thus to charge that worthie man with contrarieties vniustly For doth he that confuteth the Popes vniust claime and vngodly vsurpation of both the swords in that maner y t he claymeth vseth them condemne al maner kind of ciuil iurisdctiō by christian Princes committed to Bishops being helpes vnto them in dooing their duetie and tendyng to the good and quiet gouernmente of the Churche Surely you are good in confounding but too bad in distinguishing wherefore you haue vntruly reported of that worthie Bishop Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 3. And therfore I conclude that forsomuche as (*) Wherefare you not asha med of vutruthi bothe the holie scriptures do teache that ministers ought not to meddle with ciuil offices and reason and the practise of the Church do confirme it that they ought to kepe themselues within the limites of the ministerie and ecclesiastical functions least whylest they breake forth into the callyng of a Magistrate in stead of shewing them selues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ouerseers they be founde to declare themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is busy bodies medlyng in things which belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whiche they knowe well mough that they ought 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say studie to adorne that charge whiche they take in hand and do professe I leaue to speake any further of this matter Io. Whitgifte Melchisedech being a Priest did exercise ciuill iurisdiction for he was king of Salem The scriptures teach that ecclesiasticall persons maye haue ciuill iurisdiction Gen 14. Aaron being a Priest did iudge the whole people in temporall matters euen in causes of inheritance Num. 27. In the. 17. of Deuteronomie there is a commaundement that ciuill matters of difficultie shal be referred to the Priests and to the iudge Elye and Samuel Priests did iudge the people in matters temporall Gen. 14. Nume 27. Deut. 17. 1. Sam. The people of Israell after theyr captiuitie were gouerned by Priestes and Prophetes as by Esdras Nehemias Mattathias c. The Scripture in no place commaundeth the contrarie nor moueth vnto it yet you are not ashamed to say that the holye scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle with ciuill offices Lykewyse in Augustines tyme it is euidente by the woordes before recited The practise of the churche concerning ciuill offices in ministers that it was not straunge but vsuall and counted a péece of duetie for Bishops to deale in Ciuil causes and that as Iudges The authours of the Centuries in the fourth Centur. chap. 7. say that Bishops in that age did giue sentence in ciuil causes if anye didde appeale from the Ciuill courtes to their authoritie Sozomene Lib. 1. cap. 9. Bishops gaue sentence in ciuil causes Cent. 4. cap. 7. Sozom. li. 1. cap. 9. wryteth thus of Constantine the Emperour This was a greate argumente of his good affection towardes Christian religion that he made a lawe for the freedome of clearkes in all places and also hee gaue libertie for those that were called into iudgemente to appeale to the Bishops if they were disposed to refuse the ciuill magistrates and he commaunded that their sentence should stand and be of more force than the sentence of the Appeale graū ted from ciuill magistrates to Bishops other iudges euen as though it had proceeded from the Emperour hymselfe And that the Magistrates and their ministers should see that acomplished that was determined and iudged in suche causes by the Bishops Nicephorns lib. 7. cap. 9. maketh mention of one Philaeas a Bishop that was greatly Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 9. commended for his wisedome and dexteritic in determining ciuill matters committed vnto him Sozomene lib. 6. cap. 32. testifieth of Epiphanius Bishop of Salamine Soz. li. 6. c. 32. Epiphanius busied with ciuill canses that together with his pastorall office he was occupyed and that with greate commendation in ciuill and politike affaires Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 32. testifieth that Dorotheus being a Priest of the Churche of Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 32. Antioche and wel learned did scrue the
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of
Apostles or whiche are themselues notable Apostles for so is this name sometyme generally taken for those which are sent in embassage in the name of Christe Bullinger doth think y t they wer in the number of the. 72. disciples Peter Martyr vpon that Bull. in 16. Rom. place They are called notable amongst the Apostles not bicause they were of the colledge of the twelue Apostles but bicause as it is credible they had spread the Gospell through Martyr in 16 Rom. manie places and had planted many Churches And a little after speaking of your interpretation he sayeth This sense doth not displease me if the wordes themselues bee not contrarie thervnto So that he séemeth to doubte whether the wordes will beare your interpretation or no. Gualter and Bullinger also suppose it not to be vnlykely Gualter in 16. Rom. that they were the first planters of Christian religion at Rome And I can reade of none that doubteth whether they had any function Ecclesiasticall or no as you do I brought them in before pagina 47. to proue that some may be chosen to preach the woorde whiche haue no certaine cure and you to auoyde a direct answere haue shifted them of to this place and now you say that belyke I bring them in to proue that we may haue more Apostles which thing in déede they proue manifestly but I brought them in to declare that a man may be admitted to preach though he haue no certaine cure and to that you haue not answered There is nothing expressed in Scriptures whether the Apostles did choose any into the roome of Iames or no but I am persuaded they did not neyther was it necessarie For who euer sayd that there muste continually be twelue Apostles and neyther more nor lesse I tolde you before out of M. Caluine that this worde Apostle in his proper and vsuall signification comprehendeth only the twelue Apostles appoynted by Christe Wherfore in this signification there are nowe no Apostles neyther was there anye since that tyme but it signifieth also generally such as preache the Gospel in sundry places and although they go not through the whole worlde as the twelue did yet are they not bounde to any one place certainly And according to this signification there both hath be e and are Apostles Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 2. 3. You aske further that if a man shoulde not preache before he haue a pastorall charge what they will answere vnto Philip and Epaphroditus wherby your meaning is belike that although they beno Pastours yet they may be Euangeli t s whiche goe aboute the countrey here there But this office is ceassed in the Churche as the Apostles is sauing that sometymes the Lorde doth rayse vp some extraordinarily for the building vp of the Churches whyche are falne down and pulled vp by the foundations as I haue shewed somwhat before And that it is ceased it may appeare by these reasons Fyrst for bicause all those that the Scripture calleth precisely Euangelistes which are only Philipan Timothie had their callings confirmed by miracle and so it is lyke that Titus and 〈◊〉 and pollos and if there were any other had their vocations after the same maner Act. 8. 39. confirmed but there is no suche miraculous confirmation nowe therefore there is no suche vocation 1 Tim. I. 18. Io. Whitgifte I haue declared both before by Scripture reason other authoritie that though the name of an Euangelist bée chaunged yet the office remayneth The Scripture no where calleth Tunothie an Euangelist onely 2. Ti. 4. S. Paule willeth him to doe 2. Tim. 4. the woorke of an Euangelist whiche is to preache the Gospell But of this matter I haue at large spoken in an other place It passeth to sée howe boldely you doe abuse the Scripture Where doe you reade that eyther 〈◊〉 or Philippe were ordeyned or confirmed Euangelistes by miracle There can be no such thing imagined in the. 39. verse Acts. 8. the wordes Act. 8. be these And as soone as they that is Philippe and the Eunuche were come oute of the water the spirite of the Lorde caught away Philip that the Eunuche sawe him no more c. Was this the miracle that confirmed Philip an Euangelist Lorde God what meane you This was rather done to confirme the Eunuche As for Philip it is manyfest that before this miracle he was an Euangelist for in the same chapter we reade that before this tyme Philip had preached in Samaria and conuerted them béeing before seduced by Simon the sorcerer and that he had also baptised them Moreouer he had conuerted the Eunuch and baptized him before this miracle was shewed wherfore it could not be a confirming of his Euangelistship That in the. 1. Ti. 1. vers 18. insinuateth that dyuerse Prophecies had gone before of Timothie whereby it was reuealed that he shoulde bée a woorthye Minister of the Churche or as Caluine sayeth which had commended him to the churche although there be sundry interpretations of that place more lyke to bée true than that But howe proueth it that hée was made an Euangelist by miracle First Timothie was nowe a Bishop as hereafter is proued Secondly here is no mention made of any calling to an Euangelist ship Thirdly a Prophecie is not a miracle Last of all though this were true bothe in Philip and Timothie as it is in neyther yet dothe it not followe that whosoeuer is called to be an Euangelist must also be confirmed by miracle for particular examples make no generall rule Timothie was ordeyned minister of the Gospell per impositionem manuum by the laying on of handes 1. Tim. 4. 1. Ti. 4. 2. Ti. 1. And therfore his vocation was ordinarie and néeded no such confirmation 2. Tim. by miracle Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 4. Nowe agayne if there shoulde be any Euangelist who shoulde ordeyne hym you will saye the Bishop But I saye that can not be that the greater shoulde be ordeyned of the lesse For Heb. 7. the Euangelist is a higher degree in the Churche than is the Bishop or pastor And if he be so why hath he not his estimation here in the Churche about the Bishop or Archbishop eyther for the Archbishop is but a Bishop or why doth not he ordeyne Bishops as Tunothie and Titus did which were Euangelistes being one poynt of theyr office as Eusebius declareth Euseb. li. 3. cap. 27. Io. Whitgifte You doe but trie my pacience in so often offending in the petition of the principle For neyther can you proue an Euangelist to be an higher degrée in the Church than is a Bishop neyther is it true that Timothie and Titus were Euangelistes and not Bishops and in that poynt haue you all the writers both olde and newe stories and other one or two only excepted flatly against you besides the euident reasons that may be collected out of the
Scripture I know not to what purpose you quote the. 7. to the Hebrues except it be for this Hebr. 7. texte The lesse is blessed of the greater in whiche place blessing is not taken for ordeyning or consecrating for Melchisedech did no suche thyng to Abraham But it is there taken as it is Numer 6. where the Priestes are commaunded to blesse the Numer 6. people and therefore serueth not your turne for any thing here spoken I vnderstand not to what ende you quote Eusebius in his third booke and. 27. Chapter Uaine quotation For there is not in that place one woorde spoken of an Euangelist or any part of his office Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 5. Agayne if there be in euery Church a Pastor as S. Paule cōmaundeth what should the Euangelists do for either that pastor doth his dutie and then the Euangelist is superfluous or if he do it not then he is no lawfull pastor and so ought he to be put out and an other to be put in his steade And where the pastor doing his dutie can not suffice there the Scripture hath giuen him an ayde of the Doctour which for bicause his office consisteth in teaching doctrine to this end that the Pastor myght not be driuen to spende so much tyme in propounding the doctrine but myghte haue the more tyme to employ in exhorting and dehorting and applying of the doctrine to the tymes and places and persons it is manyfest that he also is tyed to a certaine Church For how coulde he be an ayde vnto the pastor to whose helpe he is giuen vnlesse he were in the same church where the pastor is And that the Euangelistes office hath bene to taken as a function that endured Lib. 5. cap. 10. but for a tyme it may appeare first by that which Eusebius writeth speaking of Pantenus for sayth he there were vntill that tyme Euangelistes c. which was aboute the yeare of our Lord. 162. Wherby he giueth to vnderstand that aboute that tyme they ceased and that in his tyme there was none when notwithstanding there were Bishops or Pastors and Elders Li. 1. offic 1. and Deacons And Ambrose sayth that there be no Apostles but those whiche Christe himselfe did appoynt wherby it appeareth that of all the Ecclesiasticall functions that preach the woorde there are but the Pastor and Doctor only lefte vnto vs and the same also restrayned to particular charges Io. Whitgifte But what if there be not in euery Church suche a Pastor neyther can be is the Euangelist then necessarie you must of necessitie confesse that for the people muste not be depriued of the worde when by suche meanes they may haue it Howebeit though euery Churche had his Pastour and euerye pastour dyd his duetie yet might preaching by other doe good as well for the confirmation of the Doctrine and the more frequent preaching as also for that it pleaseth God sometymes to woorke that by one that he dothe not by an other But what Scripture haue you to proue that the Doctor is added to the Pastour as an ayde or that the Doctor is tyed to a certaine place you haue no licence to coyne newe Scriptures and in the olde I am sure you can not fynde it As for youre bare woorde it is but a verye bare proofe I tolde you before that Hierome Augustine Chrysostome Musculus and dyuerse other vppon good reason confounde Pastour and Doctor and thynke them to bée but diuerse names of one office And whereas you saye that the Doctours office consisteth in teaching doctrine to this ende that the Pastour myghte not be dryuen to spende so muche tyme in propoundyng the doctrine c. I woulde gladly knowe whence you learne that Ambrose sayeth they be suche as see good rule kepte in the Churche or suche as Ambrose in 4. Eph. teache children Eusebius woordes speaking of Pantenus be these There were as yet at that tyme manie Euangelistes whyche were prest and readie to this that they myght wyth a godlie zeale accordyng to the Apostles example promote and plante the woorde of God Whyche proue that there were then Euangelistes good store whyche were zealous c. But there is no mention made of any ceassing of their office it rather proueth a continuance of the same béeing so long after the Apostles tyme. There is nowe no suche Euangelistes as goe from kyngdome to kyngdome or thoroughe the Lib. 5. cap. 9. worlde bycause the miraculous gifte of tongues is nowe ceased Neyther is anye nowe lawfully called to any suche Ecclesiasticall function but by man and therfore they must goe no further than his authoritie extendeth that hath called them Ambrose sayeth truly if he should say that there are no Apostles but such as Christ himselfe appointed if we speake proprely and vsually as I haue before declared but that is no hinderance to any thing y t I haue affirmed And yet surely y e words of Ambrose sound nothing that way for Ambrose abasing and disabling himselfe saith thus Non igitur mihi apostolorum gloriam vendico quis enim boc nisi quos ipse filius elegit dei c. I therefore challenge not to my selfe the glory of the Apostles for who can do this but they whome the sonne of God did choose And what can you hereof conclude He saith afterwards also that i e doth not chalenge to himselfe the circumspection of Pastors yet was he then a Byshop as it is in that place euident Gladly would you haue some authoritie for your purpose if you could tell where to find it Of the residence of the Pastor Tract 5. Chap. 1. the first Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 6. Now that I haue proued that there are no Euangelists Prophets or Apostles and that the ministeries of the word which remayne are limited vnto certayne places I will take that whiche you graunt that is that the Pastor or Byshop ought to haue a speciall flocke And demand of you wherefore he should haue it Is it not to attend vpon it And can he attend vpon it vnlesse he be resident and abiding vpon it But he cannot be abiding vpon it if he go from place to place to preach where he thinketh necessarie Therefore being Pastor or Byshop of a congregation allotted vnto A digression from the matter to the person him he may not go from place to place to preach where he thinketh good much lesse to haue a mastership of a colledge in one corner of the land a Deanry in another and a Prebend in the thirde and so be absent from his pastorall charge in such places where eyther he preacheth not or needeth not to preach those places being otherwise furnished without him For then how is this difference kept betweene the Pastor and other ministers that the one is tyed to a place and the other is not For if you say that it is in that he shall preach more at his
Bishop be ouer one diocesse one rchbishop ouer one Prouince Wherfore I conclude thus It is necessary y t among the cler ie some should be in authoritie ouer the rest and therfore there may be both Archbishops Bishops but I know you wil answer y t there may be gouernment without these degrées then say I vnto you againe stand not so much in your owne c ceyt this order is most auncient in the Church it is confirmed by the best and noblest Councels it is allowed by the best learned fathers it hath the pattern from the practise of the Apostles a l whiche hath bin shewed before it is most méet for this state and kingdome and therfore be no wilful in a new deuise the triall wherof was neuer as yet the maner wherof is vnknown to your selfe and the end no doubt mere confusion Your welfauoured and 〈◊〉 speeches together with your accustomed cōtempt I omit here as I doe in other places Chap. 3. the. 41. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Sect. 3. The moste therfore that he can conclude of this for the ministerie is that there must be minister that shall rule and people that shall be obedient and hereby he can 1. of proue that ther should be any degrees amongst the ministers and ecclesiasticall gouernours vnlesse he wyl say peraduenture that as there are vnder magistrates and a kyng aboue them all so there shoulde be vnder ministers and one minister aboue all * But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common Note this suspicious speache of the kinde of gouernment wealth that there should be one ouer all for that there are other good common wealthes wherin many haue lyke power and authoritie And further if bicause there is one kyng in a lande aboue all he wil conclude there should be one Archbishop ouer all I say as I haue sayd that it is not against any word of God which I know although it be inconuenient but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the worlde and yet I thinke M. Doctor wyll not say that there maye be one Archebishop ouer all the worlde Io. Whitgifte Why there ought to be superioritie among ministers as well as other The gouernmente of the churche in a Christi n cōmon wealth oughte to bee according to the forme ther in vsed Yes I wil cōclude that ther ought to be degrées of superioritie amōg y e ministers also bicause they labour of imperfections as wel as other mē do especally of pride arrogancie vainglorie which ingender schismes here 's es contentions as the examples of all times and ages euen from the Apostles to this time declare I am persuaded y t the externall gouernment of the church vnder a christiā Magistrate must be according to the kinde forme of the gouernment vsed in the cōmon wealth else how can you make the Prince supreme gouernour of all states causes ecclesiastical wil you so deuide the gouernment of y e Churche from the gouernment of the cōmon wealth that the one being a monarchie the other must be a Democratie or an Aristocratie this were to deuide one realme into two and to spoyls the Prince of the one halfe of hir iurisdiction and authoritie If you will therefore haue the Quéene of Englande rule as Monarche ouer all hir dominions then muste you also giue her leaue to vse one kinde and forme of gouernment in all and euery parte of the same and so to gouerne the Church in Ecclesiasticall affaires as she doth the common wealth in ciuile But you say that I must remember that it is not necessarie in a common welth that there T. C. speaketh suspiciously of gouernment should be one ouer all I say that you must remember that in this cōmon wealth it is necessarie y t one shuld be ouer al except you wil trāsform aswel y e state of y e kingdom as you would of y e church which is not vnlike to be your meaning for not long after you adde that the common wealth must be stamed a cording to y e church as the hangyngs to the house the gouernmēt therof w t her gouernment c. not contrary meaning y t the gouernmēt of the cōmon wealth ought not to be monarchical but either democratical or Aristocratical bicause as you say the gouernment of the Church ought to be such What this in time wil bréed in this common wealth especially when it cōmeth to the vnderstanding of the people who naturally are so desirous of innouations I referre it to the iudgement of those that can and ought best to consider it The vnlike linesse that is betwixt one Cesar being ouer all the world of one archbishop being ouer all the world I haue shewed before they be most vnlike yet this is but a friuolous vaine supposition M. Caluin in his Inst. cap. 8. sect 96. doth say that it is absurdissimum most absurd Chap. 3. the 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 71. Sect. 4. It is not to be denied but that ther is an equalitie of al ministers of Equalitie among ministers touching minist rie gods word quoad ministeriū touching the ministerie for they haue allike power to preach the word to minister the sacraments that is to say the word preached or the sacramēts ministred is as effectual in one in respect of the ministerie as it is in an other But quoad ordinem politiam touching order gouernment ther always hath bin must be degrees and superioritie among them For the churche of God is not a cōfused congregation but ruled directed aswel by discipline policie in matters of regimēt as by the word of God in matters of faith T. C. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. 2. Nowe M. Doctor cōmeth to his olde hole where he would fayn hide himself and with him all the ambition tyrannie excesse of authorttie which is ioyned with these functions of Archebishop and bishop as they are now vsed this his hole is that al the ministers are equall with bishops Archbishops as touching the ministerie o the word sacramentes but not as touching policie gouernment The Papists vse the very self same (a) This distinction is allowed of those that be sarre from Papistrie distinction for the maintenance of the Popes tyrannie and ambition and other their hierarchie M. Doctor hath put out the mark concealed the name of the Papists so with a little change of wordes as it were with certayn newe colours he would deceyue vs. For the Papistes saye that euery syr Iohn or hedge Prieste hathe as greate authoritie to sacrifyce and offer for the quycke and the deade and to minister the Sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath but for gouernment and for order the Bishoppe is aboue a Prieste the Archebishoppe aboue a bishop and the Pope aboue them all But I haue (b) You haue no yet declared 〈◊〉
neyther can you declared before out of the Scriptures h we vayne a disrinction it is and it appeareth out of Cyprian that as all the Bishops were equall one to another so he sayth that to euerie one was giuen a portion of the Lords flock not only to feed with the worde and sacraments but to rule and gouerne not as they which shal make any accompt vnto an archbishop or be iudged of him but as they which can not be iudged of any but of God And Ierome vpon Cituz sayth that the elder or minister (c) But you con 〈◊〉 that which foloweth did gouerne and rule in common with the Bishops the Churche wherof he was elder or minister Io. Whitgifte The distinetion quoad ministerium quoad ordinem tustisyed Caluine Beza Lib. con cap. 7 art 12. The distinction is good and true allowed of the best writers though the Papists wrongfully applie it M. Caluin vpon the 2. Cor. 10. hath the same distinction Quamuis sayth he commune sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen honoris gradus Although there is one office cōmon to al the ministers of the word yet are there degrees of ho nour M. Beza likewyse lib. conf cap. 7. saith thus that pastors in proces of time wer distinct into Metropolitanes Bishops and those we now call curates it was not in therespect of the ministerie of the worde but rather in respecte of iurisdiction and discipline Therefore concerning the office of preaching the vvorde and administrating the Sacramentes there is no difference betwixt Archbishops Bishops and curates c. The same distinction doth Hemingius vse in his Enchiridion 〈◊〉 the. 72. 〈◊〉 of this chapter as shall be seene hereafter What say you now is this a starting hole or rather a true distinction allowed by such as are far frō Papistrie except you wil accuse M Caluine and Beza for Papists You are not able to improue this distinction with all the learning you boast of and bitternesse of words will not carie away the matter You haue declared nothing tending to the improuing of this distinction the wordes both of Cyprian and of Hicrom do manifestly confirme it for they both would haue one chief among the ministers to gouerne the rest as it is said before You deale corruptly in reciting Hieroms words for you haue left out his purpose and meaning I wil set them down as they be in déed Idē est ergo presbyter c. VVherfore the minister Heir ad Tit. 1. and bishop are al one and before that through the instinct of the deuil there were diuisions in religion and that it was sayd among the people I hold of Paule I of Apollo and I of Cephas the churches were ruled in cōmon by the coūcell of the ministers But after that euery one accompted those whom he baptized to be his and not Christes it was decreed thorowout the whole world that one being chosen from amōg the ministers should be placed ouer the rest to whom the whole care of the church should appertein and the seedes of schismes be taken away Wil you not leaue off to deale thus guilefully with your Reader haue you no care to deale plainly and simply Ierome in that place verifieth this distinctiō and she weth that it was for order policie that among the ministers there was one bishop apointed ad quē omnia ecclesiae cura pertineret schismatū semina tollerētur And what can be spoken more directly to the purpose But one thing here I note that you wold be controlled of none but of God that is you would be exempted from all authoritie of man euen as the Pope himselfe is Chap. 3. the. 43. Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Lin. 4. And therfore wel saith M. Caluin in his Institutions cap 8. that the Caluine alloweth superioritie twelue Apostles had one among them to gouerne the rest it was no maruel sor nature requireth it and the disposition of man wilso haue it that in euery companie although they be al equal in power yet that there be one as gouernour by whom the rest may be directed there is no Courte without a Consul no Senate without a Pretor no Colledge without a Presidente no societie vvithout a maister Haec Caluin T. C. Page 84. Sect. 3. After foloweth M. Caluin a great patron forsoth of the Archbishop or of this kinde of bishop which is vsed amongst vs here in England And here to passe ouer your strange citations quota tions which you make to put your answerer to pain sending him sometimes to Musculus common places for one sentence to Augustins works to Chrysostoms works to Cyril to M. Foxe here sending him to y e. 8. chapter of y e Institutiōs (*) as though you had neuer red Caluins institutions but tooke she sentence of some body else withoute any examination whereby it seemeth that you were loth that euer any man should answer your booke letting I say al this passe what maketh this eyther to prone that there should be one Archbyshop ouer all the ministers in the prouince or one Byshop ouer all in the diocesse that amongst twelue that were gathered togyther into one place there was one which ruled the action for which they mette Io. Whitgifte A practis wor thy the noting This is to be obserned throughout your whole booke as I haue noted in other places that when any authoritie is alleadged that pincheth you then you fall to cauilling by and by I haue no where referred you to Iustinians code to Gratians decrees to Augustines works to diuers councels to Theodorete to the centuries c. Without noting eyther booke Chapter distinction number Canon or such like as you vsually deale with me and yet these be farre more tedious to reade ouer than is the. 8. Chap. of Caluines Institutions I do not remember that I referred you to Augustine Chrysostome or any other writers for any matter in controuersie Cyrill Museulus and M. Foxe onely in one place excepted but I quoted the places as particularly as I coule And why will you then so vntruly report of me vndoubtedly I neuer red a booke for the quantitie of it so pestered with slanderous reportes false accusations and contentious deriding speaches as this your booke is But let it go Diuers editions of Caluines institutions This booke of institutions which is distinguished into Chapters and not into bookes I red and noted thorough before you as it shoulde seeme knew whether there were any such booke or no and bycause I haue laboured in it noted it and am well acquainted with it therefore I vse it and follow it and so will I do still Neyther are you ignorant I am sure that there be sundry editions of those institutions although you séeme to dissemble the matter in this place I mighte say of purpose for you haue answered after your manner places before out of the
at the other I will not denie but he may be more edisyed at the simple reading than at the Sermon vnlesse it be in this and such like case I knowe not howe it may be true that M. Doctor sayth And indeede it is as much to say that it may be that the meanes that God hath ordeyned to be the fittest and meetest to call men to saluation is not the fittest and meetest meanes which a man shoulde not once so much as thinke of without trembling and shaking euery ioynt of him Io. Whitgifte As absurde as it is Musculus doth affirme it in his common places titu de Lectio sacrae script And as his saying I report it in mine answere beléeuing it to be moste true And therefore if your malice had not béene wholy bent agaynst me you should haue ascribed this absurditie to him or at least haue deuided it betwixt vs and so my backe should haue béene somwhat eased of the burden of absurdityas wherewith you would so gladly ouercharge me God worketh by reading the Scriptures as well as he doth by preaching and God vseth reading as a meanes aswell as preaching vseth that also as a meanes to call men to saluation Read Augustine lib. con 8. cap. 12. and you shall sée that God vsed reading as a meanes to conuert him And surely I maruell that you professing the Gospell can without trembling and shaking speake so basely of reading the worde of God being a thing so precious and so singular a meanes of our saluation but for the thing it selfe I referre it to the iudgement Reading somtune preuayleth more than preaching of those that haue not drunke so déepely of the cuppe of contention as you haue whither it may not sometymes so happen Or whither they whiche are quietly affected may not receyue more edifying by the simple reading of the Sciptures which they vnderstande than by the Sermons of diuerse contentious preachers whose hote and bitter inuectiues which sauour more of malice than of loue of contention than of peace the frute of the Gospell may bréede in the heartes of those that are studious of peace and quietly minded some suspition of the truth of their doctrine Or lastly whither some misdoubting the truth of the doctrine of the preachers of the Gospell and conceyuing a preindicate opinion agaynst them as diuerse Papistes doe may not be more edifyed by diligent reading of the Scriptures of whose authoritie they doe not doubt than by hearing of the Preacher whose wordes they doe eyther mistrust or not regarde by reason of theyr preiudicate opinion agaynst all Preachers and in the ende perceyuing by reading of the Scriptures the truth of their doctrine may bée thereby established which were not by the Sermons once mooued And for this cause Christ sayde Iohn 5. Searche the Iohn 5. Scriptures c. That Reading is Preaching Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 13. And nowe I thinke by this tyme M. Doctor knoweth his answere to his seconde question which is whether reading be not preaching ▪ And if this be not sufficient that I haue sayde I woulde aske gladly of him (*) A mere cauil whether all Readers be Preachers and whether whosoeuer readeth preacheth for if it be true which he sayth that reading is preaching then that is lykewise true that all those which reade preache and so a childe of 4. or 5. yeares olde is able to preach bycause he is able to reade Io. Whitgifte I know an answere in déede such as it is but it is much more fit for a Papist or Atheist than for a professor of the Gospell If preaching be taken generally for euerie How reading is preaching kinde of instructing or teaching by the worde of God as it is ad Rom. 10. then is reading preaching But if it be taken in the vsuall signification for him that interpreteth the Scripture teacheth and exhorteth in the Congregation by discoursing vpon the scriptures and applying them as occasion serueth then it is not so and yet no lesse profitable to edifying to such as vnderstande that which is read than preaching To reade the Scriptures is not to preach or teache in respect of him that readeth but in the respect of Gods spirite whiche thereby worketh knowledge in the heart of the Reader or Hearer For we must thinke it to be true that Cyprian sayth VVhen we reade the Scripture God speaketh vnto vs and in this sense a childe that can read may preach that is God by his worde read of a childe may and doth oftentimes teach vs. And hereof we haue God be thanked many examples in Englande of those which béeing not able to reade themselues by the meanes of their children reading to them at home receyue instruction and edifying And if you had béene disposed to haue called to remembrance that which you say you haue so diligently read in M. Foxe you might haue knowne that diuerse in the beginning came to the light of the Gospell onely by reading and hearing the newe Testament in English read which I am sure you will confesse to haue bene to them a preaching and instruction Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition By the worde of God it is an office of preaching they make it an office of reading Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 159. Sect. 1. But where doth the booke make the ministerie an office of reading onely Or what contrarietie is there betwixt reading and preaching Nay what difference is there betwixt them If a man A written sermon is preaching shoulde write his Sermon and reade it in the booke to his flocke doth he not preach Is there no Sermons but such as be sayde without booke I thinke to preache the Gospell is to teache and instruct the people in fayth and good maners be it by wryting reading or speaking without booke and I am sure the spirite of God doth worke as effectually by the one of these wayes as it doth by the other Did not Saint Paule preache to the Romaines when he writte to them Was not the reading of Deuteronomie to the people a preaching 2. Reg. 23. Will you so scornefully and so contemptuously speake of the reading of Scripture beeing a thing so frutefull and necessarie T. C. Pag. 127. Lin. 18. And least he shoulde seeme to be thus euill aduised without some reason in the. 159. Page he asketh whether if a man wryte his Sermon and after reade it in the booke that reading be preaching Here is hard shift what if I graunted that it is preaching yet I denie that therefore he that readeth an other mannes Sermon preacheth and further I say that if there be any such as beeing able to preache for his knowledge yet for fault eyther of vtterance or memorie can not doe it but by reading that whiche hee hath written It is not conuenient that hee shoulde bee a Minister in the Churche For Saint Paule doth not require onely that the 1. 〈◊〉 3. Bishoppe
or Minister shoulde be learned in the mysteries of the Gospell and such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in his studie the sense of the Scripture but one whiche is apt and fitte to teache And the Prophete Malachie sheweth that he must haue the lawe not in his papers Mal. 2. but in his lippes noting thereby that it is necessarie to haue the gifte of vtterance And Esay the Prophete saying that God had giuen him the tongue of the learned doth thereby declare Esay 50. that it is not sufficient that he be well instructed in the mysterie of saluation but that he haue also the gift of vtterance Io. Whitgifte And why doth not he which readeth an other mans Sermon preache as well as hée doth when he readeth his owne What if he pronounce another mans Sermon in the Pulpit without booke doth he not preache bicause it is not his owne I do not speake this to defende any such ignorant Pastor that should néede so to depende vpon other mens labours I doe but put a case It may be that a learned Pastor hauing both memorie and vtterance sometime vpon occasion may reade a Sermon And I nothing doubt but in so doing he preacheth And surely he shall the more redily haue the lawe in his lippes if he haue it first in his Papers And yet if he reade he must vse his lippes Ieremie the Prophete as it appeareth in the. 36. Chapter was commaunded to write that which the Lord had commaunded him to say to the people of Iere. 36. Iuda and of Ierusalem and to cause it to be read vnto them and so it was in the open congregation and in the house of the Lorde in the hearing of all the people And so did Baruch in like maner write that which he had to say to Iechonia and to Bar. 1. all the people and read the same in the open congregation Bar. 1. and surely both these bookes were Sermons Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 127. about the middest Afterward M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule did not preach to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them No forsooth his writing to the Romaines was no more preaching than S. Rom. 1. Paules hande or his pen. which were his instruments to write with were his tongue or his lightes or any other partes which were his instruments to speake with And S. Paule himselfe writing to the Romaines putteth a difference betwene his writing his preaching when although he wrote vnto them yet he excuseth himselfe that he coulde not come to preach vnto them saying that he was readie as much as lay in him to preach vnto them Io. Whitgifte Forsooth and I thinke verely that the same Epistle did them more good and wrought more with them than if the selfe same matter had béene preached vnto them and not written And if you will but peruse the. 15. and. 16. vers of the. 15. Chapter of that Epistle I thinke that you shall heare the Apostle call this written Epistle in effect preaching I do not perceyue that in the first Chapter of this Epistle he maketh any such difference betweene his wryting vnto them and hys preaching If you meane the. 15. verse he therein onely signifieth that so much as lyeth in him he is readie personally to preach the Gospell among them as well as he doth it nowe by his letters and therefore to say that this his wryting is no more preaching than his hande or his pen was his tongue or his lightes is a proper iest but not so apt for the purpose nor so fitte for your person A mans minde is commonly much better expressed by wryting than by worde and that which is written continueth Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. somevvhat past the middest But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching No more than the reading of Exod. Here be good proofes It is generally denied that readyng is preaching and M. Doctor without any proofe taketh it for graunted that the readyng of 〈◊〉 is preaching al men see how pitifull reasons these be Io. Whitgifte And why then did God by Moses Deut. 31. commaunde the Priestes and Leuites that they should reade The wordes of this lawe before all Israell that they might Deut. 31. heare it and learne and feare the Lorde God and keepe and obserue all the wordes of the lawe Why did Iosiah after he had founde this booke cause it to be read before all the people if readyng had not bene effectuall and of as great force to persuade as preaching that is if readyng in effect had not bene preaching If the eight chapter of Nehemias Nehem. 8. be well considered and the true meaning of the. 4. and. 7. verses according to learned and godly interpreters weyghed and pondered this controuersie will soone be at an ende it will there appeare in expresse wordes that readyng is preaching These pitifull reasons so disquiet your patience that it woulde pitie a man to see how of a diuine you are become a scornefull iester Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Act. 15. it is thus written For Moses of old tyme hath in euery citie them that preach him seyng he is read in the Synagogues euery Sabboth day Where he also seemeth to call reading preaching T. C. Pag. 127. Tovvardes the ende And in the. 162. page he alleageth that in the. 15. of the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by readyng preaching But what dealing is this vpon a (*) If your seemings and coniectures were taken away there would be few reasons left seeming and coniecture to set downe so certainely and vndoubtedly that reading is preaching and then there is no one letter nor syllable that vpholdeth any suche comecture For S. Iames sayeth that Moses meaning the lawe read euery Sabboth thorough out euery towne in the Sinagogue was also preached or had those that preached it setting forth the order which was vsed in all the hurches amongst the people of God that alwayes when they mette vpon the Sabboth dayes they had the scriptures first read and then preached of and expounded which is that the Authours of the Admonition do desire and therefore complayne for that after readyng followeth no preaching which any indifferent man may easily vnderstande by that that they saye In the olde tyme the worde was preached nowe it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Io. Whitgifte Surely the place of it selfe is euident neyther can I reade any interpreter that doth otherwise vnderstand it than of reading the occasion of vttering these wordes importeth the same For S. Iames doth vse this for a reason why the ceremonies of the lawe could not by and by be abolished among the Iewes bycause Moses was of so great authoritie with them beyng read euery Sabboth day in their Churches Therefore hauing the wordes of the Scripture with me I must rest in my opinion