age That is to say in every Century or age there were honest men and lawfull witnesses who testified that Henry the IV Ancestors descended from Saint Lewis though one onely age could remember or see Saint Lewis yet the next ensuing did see the first and heard their testimony the third did see the second c. In every age did live men whose testimony might be relyed upon It must be granted therefore by all that the knowledge which is grounded upon a continuall and never interrupted tradition is sufficient for lawfull witnesses 6 That the Roman Catholick Church hath a continuall and never interrupted tradition of its Faith and sense of Scripture being taught by Christ and the Apostles can not be denyed by our adversaries it being evident to the world that they who contradicted any article of this Faith we now professe in former ages were looked upon and condemned as Hereticks which is an infallible argument that we in every age received our Doctrine from the former not as the word of men but as the Word of God or as Divine Revelation for if it were not believed as Divine Revelation why should we condemne men as Hereticks because they denyed it Neither do Protestants deny that we believed our tradition and the testimony of our Church to be grounded upon Divine Revelation they onely say we were mistaken and that both our tradition and testimony of the Roman Church was fallible But then we urge that they acknowledge both were infallible in delivering to them the Scripture and testifying that it was the Word of God therefore in delivering and testifying all the rest seeing the same testimony delivering many things together must be of equall authority in all and equally believed by them who accept of it as a lawfull proofe All our pretended Reformers had no other ground in the yeare 1517. to believe Scripture as Divine Revelation but the testimony of the Roman Church Therefore they ought to believe all the rest or not to believe Scripture 7 I said it concernes also our adversaries to grant that their reformed Churches have no lawfull witnesses in matters of Faith because there can not be that sufficient knowledge which is required in a lawfull witnesse of Faith without tradition whereby it may appeare that the Faith and sense of Scripture of this age doth agree with that of the primitive Church If once our adversaries acknowledge lawfull witnesses of things past long since without a constant and never interrupted tradition every man whose spirit of ambition moves him may pretend to be true heire of any hereditary crowne or estate and without further proofe then his owne word and spirit or some obscure text of Scripture will exclude Kings and others whose rights are grounded upon tradition But if tradition be so necessary to preserve and make credible the testimony of men in matters of estates and rights in the Common-wealth it can not be superfluous to make credible the testimony of men concerning matters of Faith 8 It remaines now we prove that the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church hath beene confirmed with supernaturall signes or miracles But seeing there are in the Roman Church lawfull witnesses who prove that the Faith which they now professe is the same with that of the primitive Church miracles also are proved by the same witnesses it being granted by Protestants themselves that miracles were wrought in the primitive Church to confirme the Faith which Christ and his Apostles taught Yet in the Roman Catholick Church there are now lawfull witnesses and have beene in every age since Christs preaching that there have beene miracles done in confirmation of the Roman Faith This is evident to all who read the Ecclesiasticall Histories of present and past times Neither can our adversaries deny that we have lawfull witnesses for miracles now wrought in our Church even in confirmation of that Doctrine wherein we differ from them and reported by so credible testimonies See the 13. Chap. that it were imprudence in any person whosoever to deny them which is enough to propose sufficiently our Doctrine as Divine Revelation But Protestants do not believe our miracles because they imagine that they are against Scriptures that is against their owne interpretation of it and that some miracles have beene false and forged We do not say that all things which the common people thinke to be miracles are really true miracles but we affirme that true miracles there are in our Church and very frequent confirming that very Doctrine which Protestants reject the forgery or knavery of some particular wicked men in feigning miracles can not prejudice all especially such as are seene and experimented by persons of knowne integrity and learning able to discerne betweene true and false miracles otherwise it will follow that all the new Testament must be called in question or denyed to be Gods Word because Saint Thomas his pretended Ghospell or Nicodemus his writings are condemned as forged or Apocryphall That no reformed Church of Protestants can have lawfull witnesses to propose sufficiently their Doctrine as Divine Revelation is evident because for the space of 1500. yeares they were without any visible Church or tradition therefore their witnesses also are invisible and by consequence not lawfull or credible Fox and others made a certaine Catalogue of men who opposed the Doctrine of the Roman Church in former ages but they were known Hereticks and did neither agree amongst themselves nor with Protestants in their Tenets or Religion as hath beene demonstrated by Father Persons in his Examination of Fox his Kalendar and by many others 9 I conclude therefore that seeing Protestants grant there is and hath alwayes beene a Catholick Church upon earth and that Church must have lawfull witnesses testifying their Doctrine to be Divine Revelation it being evident that no Congregation of men can produce any such lawfull witnesses but the Roman Catholicks amongst whom I include also them of the Greeke Church who agree with us it s also evident that there can be no Church Catholick but the Roman CHAP. XI VVhether Transubstantiation and the lawfulnesse of the worship of Images be sufficiently proposed by the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church as Divine revelation and whether Protestants have any lawfull exceptions against them 1 THere are so many Bookes printed in defence of these Catholick Tenets that I judge it superfluous to treate of them ex professo I will onely answer some exceptions that Protestants have made against them to my selfe in diverse occasions That the Roman Church doth propose these articles sufficiently as Divine Revelation is cleare because it proposeth them by the same testimony and confirmed by the sames signes whereby it proposeth Scripture to be Gods Word this last proposall Protestants themselves grant to be so sufficient that no man may in prudence deny it Therefore the same must be said of all the rest and in particular of Transubstantiation and worship of Images 2 But let us
time invented when the Councell defined it The Church doth not make new articles of Faith when it defines any controverted Doctrine it onely declares that such Doctrine was delivered to the primitive Church though perhaps it was not proposed generally to all Churches and Catholicks it groundeth the definition upon Scripture or Tradition The same which Protestants object against the word Transubstantiation did the Arrians against Consubstantiality in the Councell of Nice saying it was a novelty and not in Scripture 11 The lawfulnesse of worshipping Images is sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation by the second Councell of Nice in these words VVe do unanimously professe to stick to Ecclesiasticall traditions which are in force eather by custome or writing whereof one is the making of Images Which is agreable to the Ghospell and profitably invented for the beliefe of Gods true Incarnation This supposed following the beaten rode and the steps of our Divine and holy Fathers and observing the tradition of the Catholick Church wherein the holy Ghost doth inhabitate we define that holy Images ought to be worshipt c. of Christ of our Lady Angells Saints c. For so the discipline of our holy Fathers doth conclude as also the tradition of the Catholick Church which from one end to the other hath received the Ghospell 12 Notwithstanding this cleare testimony of the Catholick Church Protestants confound the worship of Images with idolatry not distinguishing between an Image and an Idol Idol signifies the likenesse of a false God Image is the likenesse of any thing that doth or may exist translating in the English Bible Image for Idol and make the poore ignorant people believe that we Catholicks dare not set downe in our Cathechismes the first Commandement at full as it is in Scripture because it forbiddeth worship of Images whereas out of the very text it appeares that God forbids onely the likenesse of any thing to be adored as God or made to that purpose In Canisius the Jesuite his Cathechisme is set downe the first Commandement as it is in Scripture In all other Cathechismes the substance of the first Commandement is set downe for in adoring but one God is implyed we must not worship any other things as Gods It might be as well objected against our Cathechismes that in the last Commandement we put in briefe onely these words Thou shalt not covet another mans goods omitting oxes and asses c. which these wise Objectors put us in minde of Cathechismes being briese instructions for childrens memory require the shortest expression of the substance of every Commandement 13 But when Catholicks urge Protestants with the same Commandement because they have their owne statues and pictures made which are as much prohibited by the Commandement as the statues or Images of Saints they can finde an explanation for the text and distinguish betweene civill and religious worship we honour say they Kings and Princes Images with a civill worship onely and not religiously as ye do the Images of Saints which religious worship is due to God alone I would faine know why can not religious worship have a latitude and be more and lesse supreme and inferror as civill worship hath Its civility not onely to worship Kings but also noble men and others ho are their servants but the supreme civilâ— worship is due onely to the King himselfe an inferior deâ— gree is due to his servants to every one according his calling What inconveniency is it to hold the same with proportion of religious worship The supreme religiouâ— worship which is called Latria is due to God alone why may not there be an inferior degree of religious worshiâ— due to Saints and their Images religious worship being onely an exterior acknowledgement of some religious oâ— supernatur all excellency in the person worshipt Saint Poter is knowne because he was a Saint and not because hâ— was a Fisher Sure Protestants will not deny that thâ— Saints who enjoy God have a supernaturall excellencâ— bestowed upon them by his Divine Majesty Thereforâ— the Saints and by consequence their Images may be hoâ— noured with a religious worship of an inferior degree 14 As for the danger of idolatry amongst the commoâ— people we Catholicks have no reason to apprehend any having so long experience of the contrary We resort more to the Church or Chappell where one Image is the another according the graces which we receive our selâ—s or the miracles which we credibly heare to be done 〈◊〉 others To perswade us not to believe any such miraâ—es is to take away all beliefe and society amongst men â—s evident some miracles done at these Images are true â—ough some may be false For its impossible that all the â—atholicks and many Hereticks should conspire togeâ—er to deceive the world and damne themselves for a â—ing which if false imports most of them nothing If â—ere be miracles the worship of Images can not be unâ—wfull because God induceth not men by miracles to â—nne rather there is an obligation of believing that it is â—ry lawfull And as for the danger of idolatry there is 〈◊〉 more in worshipping Images then there is that the â—mmon people of England should cry up an Image or atue of the King for their King and rebell with it aâ—inst himselfe CHAP. XII VVhether Protestancy be Heresie BY Protestancy I meane all and every point of that Doctrine of Protestants wherein they differ from any Tenet which Roman Catholicks hold as a point of Faith The articles of Christian Religion in which they and we agree â—n not be properly called Protestancy because they are infferent to both and were believed by us Roman Cathoâ—ks long before any Protestants were seene or heard of 〈◊〉 the world Most of the articles of Protestancy are neâ—tive that is not ot believe Transubstantiation Purgatory 〈◊〉 lawfulnesse of praying to Saints or worshipping them in â—ir Images c. so that to be a Protestant is not to beve Protestants on the other side say that to be a Caâ—lick is to overbelieve and to be a Protestant is to beâ—ve onely that which is necessary But then we aske who all be Judge of what is necessary and superfluous Not â—man Catholicks say they because they are a part and â—cerned By the same reason we may exclude all Proteâ—nts from judging and not onely Protestants but all Christians because every Church of Christendome pretends to believe all that is necessary all therefore and evâ—ry one may be excepted against as a part and concerneâ— So that if Roman Catholicks be excluded from determâ— ning what is necessary to be believed we must be judge by the Turks Pagans or Jewes in the controversies 〈◊〉 Christian Religion and of Scripture Me thinks we Caâ— tholicks are beter conditioned more prudent and moâ—â— provident in our beliefe then Protestants because thougâ— we should believe too much we can not be damned foâ— want of necessary beliefe we may lend some to oâ— Neighbours and reserve to
because they choose to themselves amongst all articles which the Catholick Roman Church proposed to the first Authors of ProtestaÌ„cy Luther Cranmer Calvin c. before the pretended Reformation what they think fit and most probable All the rest though equally proposed to them by the testimony of the said Roman Church as Divine Revelation they reject as fabulous or apocryphall because it suites not with their liberty fancy and manners Hence it is that all Hereticks are damned by their owne proper judgement and opinion for he that makes choice of some articles and rejects others when all are equally testified to be revealed by God doth not believe the very articles he chooseth because God revealed them but because he is of opinion that God revealed them and not the others which he rejects not regarding the testimony of the Church proposing all equally as revealed A Jew believes that the Messias is not come because he thinks God revealed Christ not to be the Messias and yet his Faith is not supernaturall Protestants therefore may believe what they please because they think God revealed it and yet their Faith be neither Christian nor supernaturall their owne persuasion alone is not sufficient 〈◊〉 supernaturalize their beliefe The difference between historicall and Christian or supernaturall beliefe is not that Christian beliefe alone hath for its object supernaturall mysteries a man may believe the mystery of the Trinity or Incarnation with as historicall a beliefe as the history of Iulius Cesar The difference consists in this that the understanding doth meet with so great and manifest difficulties in crediting what is sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation to be really revealed and true that it may appear to any indifferent and rationall man God doth concurre more particularly to the assent of what is proposed as Christian Faith then he doth to the assent we give stories Chronicles or any other human history though containing never so strange and extraordinary events To believe not onely strange and to the sense of man improbable things but also to believe them with a prudent beliefe not out of ignorance or misinformation without the least doubt or suspicion of falshood is so much above the way and faculty of nature that the Faith whereby this is done must of necessity be an extraordinary and supernaturall gift of Gods omnipotency Now let us examine whether Protestants do so straine their understanding by their beliefe even of supernaturall mysteries that it may be evidently called an extraordinary gift of Gods omnipotency To be brief I do say that Protestants have no more supernaturall Faith in believing the Trinity or Incarnation c then in believing any strange or extraordinary accident that Iohn Stow recounts in his Chronicles and consequently their Faith is meerly historicall My reason is this Protestants believe as articles of Faith onely those points wherein all Christian though hereticall Churches agree to be clearly contained in Scripture or to be delivered by Tradition of the said Churches Whatsoever is controverted amongst Christians they look upon it as not necessary to be believed It s true most of them tell you they believe the Apostles Creed others come as far as Saint Athanasius his Symbol some are pleased to admit of the 4. first generall Councells The motive of this their beliefe is not because the true Catholick Church testifieth that God revealed what they believe but because no Christian Church or Sect wherewith they converse â—oth contradict any of these points Such things as are contradicted or controverted by any are not believed as articles of Faith If this be not meerly historicall and human belief there is none at all What man is there whether Turck or Jew that doth not believe after this manner whatsoever is reported by many and condicted by none whose authority hath any weight in his opinion The reason why Turcks stick to their Alcoran and the Jews to the Law of Moyses notwithstanding all our contradictions and testimonies of the one being wicked and the other abolished is that they have a prejudice against us Christians they value not any thing we say in matters of Faith If Protestants had not the same prejudice by their education against Turcks that Turcks have against Christians they would make the Catholick Church yet more universall then at the present they do the Alcoran perhaps should be part of the Bible those onely should be articles of Faith wherein both agree not onely all Hereticks but Turcks should be members and part of the Catholick Church Many are of opinion that the liberty of life which Protestants have warrante by their new Religion is the strongest motive of their obstinacy in it and of propagating the same Though this be true in some persons it can not be applyed to all Protestants some of them give the Devil his due have morality and come near the old Pagan Philosophers in their life and conversation But there is not one amongst all the Protestants of the world especially of the English Church or Common prayer men that is not inveagled and carried away with a liberty of believing onely that as an article of Faith which is not contradicted by any Christian Congregation or Church however so different from his owne Why should Papists saith every Protestant impose unnecessary articles of Faith upon us why should any one be obliged to believe what is not clear in Scripture There is no liberty more earnestly sought after then that of the understanding all men are naturally taken with it no captivity is more troublesome then that of proper judgement its impossible without a supernaturall favour and grace of God to bâ—dle the inclination and ordinary course of that faculty which of its own nature is so curious and vehement that it can not be quiet untill it knowes the reason of what we heare To believe is to captivate and confine the understanding to a dungeon of darknesse Not to believe is to leave it at its own choice and liberty this last is naturall and agreable to our inclination and by consequence is no proper effect of a supernaturall power It s impossible therefore that it should be Christian Faith or a supernaturall gift of God In this sense the way of heaven is straight because Christian and not historicall beliefe is the foundation or first step to salvation we must force our selves to it by straining our understanding to believe and not give it liberty to accept and reject what we please making our selves Judges of all Controversies concerning Scripture and Christian Religion Let the negative articles of Protestancy be examined as Protestants they have no affirmative and we shall finde that nature and not grace leads them to that liberty which they assume to themselves of shaking off not onely the yoke of interior acquiescence and exterior obedience to the decrees definitions of the Catholick Roman Church but also it will manifestly appear that Protestants and all men are solicited by a naturall
A TREATISE OF THE NATVRE OF CATHOLICK FAITH AND HERESIE WITH Reflexion upon the Nullitie of the English Protestant Church and Clergy By N. N. Printed at ROÃœEN in the yeare 1657. Permissu Superiorum THE PREFACE TO THE READER IF Heresie could have been brought to a stand in its owne opinions it would long since have been sunke in the opinion of all but finding it selfe upon quick sand it is forced to change footing and not to stay long upon the same ground for fear of sinking under ground and falling from its present state of improbabilitie to its ancient state of invisibilitie And albeit by this often shifting it appeares to be brought to desperate shifts yet is it content rather to appeare any thing then utterly disappeare into its owne nothing A Cheate must often change his disguise a Mountebank his market a Sophister his Medium and an Army of defeated disordered Troopes can not long with securitie keepe the same place and posture It is not so hard to rout them as to find them out so unarmed unfortified so disbanded and scattered they are for want of a Commander in chiefe that they are no sooner in sight then put to flight and forced to retreate to some new passage of lesse perill First Scripture alone was thought a sufficient defence but finding it failed them they found it necessary to change and even cut off some parts of this fortification which were of advantage to their enemies After an outwork of Tradition was judged expedient for more securitie although in effect nothing proves of more danger unto them Bishops and Priests formerly cast out as of more expences then profit were soone called back and desired to appeare armed with true Orders received not by extraordinary vocation but by legall succession Faith alone was thought armour of proofe before they had found by experience the need of good workes The Church which in the beginning they gave out for lost and utterly perished for many ages they came at length to seeke out with more solicitude then successe being resolved not to find it in that place in which alone it is to be found and now they seeme willing to open the doores of the Church to all Christians that they in the croud may get in with the rest The pretended clearnesse of Scripture in it selfe or at least as subsigned with the testimony of the private spirit made the definitions of Councells seeme of no use now upon better consideration foreseeing the prejudice they doe to their cause by appealing from the verdict of all Councells in generall they thinke expedient to admit of some in particular but namely such as treated of matters not apertaining to our present controversies by which evasion they engage themselves in greater difficulties then those they pretended to avoyde for no just exception was or can be alleadged against the Councell of Lateran deciding the question of Transubstantiation which may not be urged against those Councells which obliged all Christians to believe the mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation They have been so beaten from place to place and so battered and broken in every place they undertooke to maintaine that divers of the best understanding and least passion would be glad to capitulate and come to an accommodation with us as farre as it may stand with their honour and interest They are content to wave that maine article of the Popes Antichristian tyranny and yeeld him a preeminencie in stead of a supremacie The respect we give Images most will free from the sinne and many from the danger of Idolatrie so it may be left as a matter of superfluitie in which rank they will place our prayers to Saints without imputing hereafter unto us any injury done to Christs mercies or merits Upon the score of Tradition they will graunt us prayer for the dead provided we leave it to their private intention whether it be to diminish their paines or increase their glory As to the reall presence so much excepted against by their Predecessors they refuse not to accept of upon condition they may shape Christs power and words to the narrow model of their own senses and be exempted from the labour of searching so farre into Metaphysick a science not sutable to the grosser heresies of this age as to finde a distinction betwixt the appearance and substance of bread Notwithstanding their want of speculation in the Theoriques they might in this mystery as well as in that of the Trinitie have learned this practicall morall Lesson that Reason is never more reasonable then when it leaves reasoning in things above reason Auricular Confession heretofore traduced for a torture of Consciences and Tyranny of the Clergy many confesse to be of good use but few of necessity and none can be brought to descend to particulars for want of humility in themselves and for want of secrecy in their Ministers Reason of state will make them subscribe to the article of Bishops that the Prince may have so many Peeres of his owne creation and at his owne devotion and a chaine of consequence drawes after them Priests and Deacons for to say the truth their winking so long at the cleare signes of their Bishops invalid Ordination is a shrewd signe of their looking more upon their Votes in Parliament then their functions in the Church They are willing to fall thus farre and yet further from their ancient Tenets with hopes to be admitted as part of our Church and cleared of the reproachfull name of Hereticks as not dissenting in the fundamentall points of Catholick Faith But whilest they talke of fundamentalls they never passe the meere superficialls and they are farre from digging so deepe as to come to the maine foundation of Faith It is in vaine to decide fundamentall matters before we resolve upon the fundamentall motive of Christian beliefe No man calls in question the truth of Gods Word but the question is about the sufficient proposall of it That is a fundamentall article of Faith and undeniable under paine of damnation which is sufficiently proposed as revealed by God we relying upon the infallible and unchangeable Truth of the Churches proposall remayne setled in the same Tenets notwithstanding the opposition of Luther Calvin and other Sectaries whilest they on the contrary accepting Gods Word upon the proposall of private inspiration or human persuasion neither agree with us nor with one another nor even with themselves in different times As to our new English Religion it is very remarkable how the pretended supernaturall inspiration and naturall persuasion hath beene alwayes flexible to temporall respects First they were inspired and persuaded to pull downe Monkes and cry downe the Pope and proceed no further this being sufficient to comply with King Henry the Eighths lewdnesse and coveteousnesse After they went on as farre as they were led by the interest of the Protector Seamour But when Queen Elizabeths illegitimacy made the Popes authority be judged wholy inconsistent with
well versed in Scripture have so much honesty as not to conceale from the world that true sense of Scripture which seemeth to themselves cleare and evident after the combination and examination of all controverted texts But to be briefe and decline all comparisons which are odious let us suppose for the present which Protestants ought to take as a courtesie that learned Protestants and learned Catholicks are equally honest and equally learned both honest and both learned if the contrary be not made appeare by the ensuing demonstration 5 It is impossible for men equally learned and equally honest to have any controversie about the sense of any words of Scripture if the sense be cleare and evident But Protestants and Catholicks who are supposed to be equally learned and equally honest have controversies about the sense of such words of Scripture as concerne Transubstantiation worship of Images and other controverted points Therefore its impossible that the sense of such words of Scripture as relate to Transubstantiation c. should be cleare and manifestly against the Doctrine of Catholicks Therefore the testimony of all Protestant Churches maintaining the clearnesse against them is not onely incredible but manifestly false Because the testimony of Catholicks though in their owne defence is made evidently true by the controversie it selfe a visible and undeniable effect that can proceede from no other cause amongst learned and honest men but from the obscurity of the words and sense wherein their judgements differ If they squable about what is cleare both parties or at least one is ignorant or not honest We Catholicks have no reason to thinke that all our Doctors want knowledge and sincerity its cleare to all Christenâ—ome that in our Church we have in all parts of the world â—oth learned and honest men and if Protestants thinke â—he same of themselves they must grant that our controâ—ersies do manifestly demonstrate the obscurity of Scripture 6 Seeing Scripture is obscure and in no place cleare against Transubstantiation worship of Images Purgatory c. what ground or warrant had the first Protestants for their pretended Reformation would not all the world have reason to laugh at us Catholicks if we should part with that ancient sense of Scripture in favour of Transubstantiation Purgatory c. which we received from the Church that went before us assuring it was revealed by God upon the bare word of Luther Calvin Knox or the â—2 persons that made the Ritual and pretended to reforme in Edward the VI. time the Sacraments both in matter forme and number What signes or miracles did they shew for their extraordinary Mission and Apostleship of reforming the Doctrine of the Catholick Church If any man who received his Land by inheritance from his Ancestors ought not to part with it if not forced by better evidence then his owne how can we part with our Faith and sense of Scripture which is the ground of all our supernaturall inheritance and happinesse untill Protestants shew a better title then the inheritance or continuall succession of our Doctrines from the Apostles They must produce better evidence then their pretended clearnesse of Scripture If they laugh at Quakers notwithstanding all the texts of Scripture which they have at their fingers ends against Protestant Doctrine how do they imagine did Catholicks looke upon the first pretended Reformers One advantage these new Quakers have against all Protestants which Protestants have not against Catholicks and it is that a new Quaker may say with truth to an old or new Protestant he hath as prudent ground and as good evidence for his owne interpretation of Scripture and Religion as the Protestant hath for his their fancies the onely ground of both their Faith being much alike and their Mission being not warranted by any precedent Church This the Protestants can not object against Catholicks because we had alwayes the word and warrant of a precedent visible Church for our interpretation of Scriptures and Religion CHAP. IX VVhether any Puritanicall Congregation be the Catholick Church by reason of their pretended spirit 1 THere not a trades-man or simple woman amongst the purer sort of Protestants who do not imagine themselves to be more infallible in interpreting Scripture then the Pope and all the generall Councells together This infallibility they attribute to the Spirit of God which they all pretend to have But this fond imagination is as easily refuted as the clearnesse of Scripture hath beene in the former Chap. because every pure Protestant or Puritan pretends to have the Spirit of God but that Spirit contradicting it selfe according the diversity of Tenets which the purely inspired hold it is impossible it should be the Spirit of God who can not inspire contradictions Yet they are so obstinate that its impossible to perswade them to the contrary though you may clearly convince them The Pope must be Antichrist Catholick Kings the horns of the Beast religious Orders rags of Rome wherewith the VVhore of Babylon adornes her selfe The Puritans must onely be the Elect the Saints and pure Zealots of the beauteous discipline of Sion which to carry on though whole Nations be extirpated their holy Spirit doth not onely rid them from any remorse of conscience but assures them no worke can be more meritorious If you inquire of them how they know whether this spirit of theirs be good or bad of God or the Divel Calvin their Patriarch and Master answers that they do discerne it as clearly as they do white from black sweet from sower and light from darknesse his proofe is the experience and testimony of every one of the faithfull Brethren concerning the purenesse of his owne spirit 2 This Calvinisticall and private spirit being so hidden and undiscernable can not be a sufficient and prudent ground at least for any man that hath it not to believe it is the Spirit of Truth and of the Catholick Church Men who are not in the true Church must be led into it by some credit and exteriour signes And though Faith be a gift of God yet it is communicated by preaching and hearing Rom. 10. We do not deny that God must helpe all Catholicks interiourly with his supernaturall grace and spirit but the difference between the Puritan and Catholick spirit is that the Puritan spirit inspireth a beliefe contrary to reason the Catholick spirit inspires a beliefe non contrary but agreable to reason Though Christian Faith be above reason it is not unreasonable But it can not be agreable to reason that any person believe a Puritanicall spirit without any more proofe of the goodnesse of it then a Puritans word against a sense of Scripture which hath beene continued in the Roman Churches since the primitive times as is evident by tradition testimony of Fathers and acknowledged by the Magdeburg Centuries and other Protestant Writers Therefore the private spirit can not be a sufficient proposall of the true Faith or a credible and convincing signe of the true Church
our selves as much as is neceâ— sary But Protestants stand upon such nice termes witâ— God and the Church that if they come not short of whâ— is necessary as twenty to one they will their Neighbouâ— shall be nothing the better for their beliefe 2 I might urge this argument in a serious way and vâ— home if this were its proper place But to returne to thâ— question whether Protestancy be Heresie I answer thâ— all opinions or Tenets whether negative or affirmativâ— that Protestants hold contrary to that which the Româ— Catholick Church believes as an article of Faith are Hâ— resies which I demonstrate in this manner Whatsoevâ— opinion is contrary to any Doctrine sufficiently propose as Divine Revelation is Heresie but all Protestants prper Tenets or opinions are contrary to some Doctriâ— sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation Therefore 〈◊〉 Protestants proper Tenets or opinions are Heresies Thâ— first proposition is granted by our very adversaries anâ— hath beene proved in the 3. and 4. Chap. The second 〈◊〉 cleare by what may be borrowed from the same Chapter and from the so and I apply to our question by this syâ— logisme All the proper Teners of Protestancy are coâ— trary to some Doctrine which the Roman Catholiâ— Church doth testifie to be Divine Revelation that is 〈◊〉 have beene revealed by God to the primitive Church bâ— the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church is a sufâ— cient proposall of any Doctrine to be Divine Revelatioâ— Therefore all Tenets or opinions proper to Protestancâ— are contrary to some Doctrine sufficiently proposed Divine Revelation 3 If the second proposition of this last syllogisme argument be demonstrated Protestancy is demonstrated â—o be Heresie Therefore I prove it in my judgement â—ery clearly That testimony is a sufficient proposall of Sods revealing any Doctrine to the primitive Church which testimony is confirmed by miracles and hath conâ—inued without interruption being exhibited in every â—ge from the time of the Apostles to this present by hoâ—est and knowing men But the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church hath all this Therefore it s a sufficient â—toposall of any Doctrine to be Divine Revelation or to â—ave beene revealed by God to the primitive Church That the testimony of the Roman Church is confirmed by â—â—iracles even in those very points of Doctrine wherein â—rotestants differ from us is so evident that no prudent â—an if not obstinate can deny and is particularly proved 〈◊〉 the 13. Chap. For how is it possible that all the world â—as I said before should conspire to abuse Protestants and â—amne themselves by feigning miracles and that not â—nely in this age but in every age since the primitive Church The forging of some is no prudent proose that â—ll are forged If there are no miracles in the Roman Caâ—olick Church in confirmation of Transubstantiation Purâ—atory Worship of Images c. there is no Faith to be given my men whosoever 4 Now it remaines onely to be proved that there hath â—een a continuall succession of honest and learned men â—f the Roman Church in every age since the primitive Church to this present who did beare witnesse that the Doctrine which every respective former age delivered to â—he next ensuing and we believe as Faith was revealed by â—od to the first Christians But this being evident by the â—ondemning as Hereticks all those who in any age held â—rotestant Tenets and being also proved in the 10. Chap. â—s superfluous and troublesome to repeate it here againe Whosoever desires to be informed more at large and of â—very point in particular let him read the Protestant Apoâ—gy for the Roman Church There he will finde what I â—ay to be so cleare that our very learned Adversaries are â—orced to acknowledge it and recurre to that old and â—esperate shift of Hereticks who say that the word of â—en is not to be believed as if the word of the same men who assure us that Scripture is the Word of God were credible in that but in nothing else Of this we have saiâ— enough before in the 5. Chap. 5 Yet I will not omit to argue against Protestants aâ— Saint Augustin did against Jewes and Pagans with that inâ— genious Dilemma whereof I made mention in the 3. Chap Either the first learned and honest men who adored thâ— Blessed Sacrament believing there was no bread in it worshipt Images c. did see miracles to confirme thesâ— pretended novelties which crept in as Protestant say tâ— the Church or they did see no miracles to confirme them If they did see miracles I have my intent If they did seâ— none I have also my intent because the greatest of all mâ— racles is that wise and learned men should without anâ— miracles seene adore for God that which seemes to be piece of bread and worship a statue or picture which 〈◊〉 not onely contrary as Protestants say to cleare Scripturâ— but also to common sense and reason By the same Di emâ— ma I prove that every point of the Doctrine of Catholick against Protestants was sufficiently proposed as Divinâ— Revelation Either it was sufficiently proposed to the firâ— Christians who believed it or not If it was Protestancâ— is Heresie If it was not how is it possible that not onely the first who believed or taught these superfluities buâ— all the wise and honest men of the world for many age before the pretended Reformation should impose upon themselves unnecessary articles as necessary and therebâ— betray posterity and damne themselves for believinâ— things which had no ground in Scripture nor were testiâ— fied to them by any credible testimonies of the Christianâ— who went before them to be Divine Revelation All thaâ— Protestants can say in their owne defence hath beene conâ— futed in the 3.4.7.8 and 9. Chap for all must be reduceâ— to three heads 1. That Scripture and Fathers are cleaâ— against Roman Catholicks 2. That the private spirit iâ— for Protestants 3. That Protestants are neither obstinate nor Hereticks because they do not believe that God reâ— vealed Transubstantiation Purgatory c. All these threâ— evasions and more have beene confuted in the foremeâ— tioned Chapters to which I remit the Reader 6 I do not see what exception Protestants can adde tâ— their former against the testimony of the Roman Cathâ— lick Church unlesse they say I that it is not make anâ— thing prudently credible as Divine Revelation because we Catholicks can not make appeare by reason how what we say is true as how accidents can be without their proper subject c. but upon this score they may as well reject the mystery of the Trinity Incarnation as Transubstantiation The Catholick Church is not the Author of the Doctrine it proposeth it s onely a witnesse as Christ himselfe declared when he sent the Apostles to preach Ye shall be my witnesses in Hierusalem c. Act. 1. Onely God who is the Author of Catholick Doctrine can give a cleare reason of some mysteries and
against our Doctrine Cath. So have ye against ours and by your consequence ye must not judge of it Ye are best be judged by the great Turke if ye will not admit of the Pope to be Judge of Controversies in Religion Yet it s not credible that God would have us be judged by Turkes or Jewes What thinke you Master Doctor Min. But why should the Pope or Roman Church judge us Protestants and we not judge them Cath. Your Protestant Churches are not yet come to yeares of discretion Our Church was in possession of judicature before yours was born ye must produce better evidence then we can shew before you can rationally pretend to deprive us of what we possessed these 16. hundred yeares 19 Min. I never met with a more obstinate Clowne then thou art Cath. Why do you say I am obstinate Is it because I take not the word of your English Church that is of 12. or 7. men in matters of Faith and Sacraments against the testimony of all Catholick Councells and the tradition of the whole Church Min. I wonder that thou didst not make mention of tradition before now Woe to them that prefer the traditions of men before the Word of God! Cath. I do not take Scripture as you interpret it to be the Word of God Our Preachers teach us that the Word of God must necessarily involve Gods meaning and sense But ye Protestants intrude your own fancies and dreames and make them a part of Gods Word rejecting the true sense and meaning of Scripture which the Catholick Church had learned of the Apostles and preserved from the first age of Christianity to this present Minist What a calumny is this Name but one fancy or new interpretation of ours intruded into Scripture Cath. Do not ye say that the respect we give to Images is idolatry or at least forbidden in Scripture as a thing inclining men to idolatry The Catholick Church condemned long since this fancy of yours as heresie and ye make the common people believe that we are idolaters for holding that sense of Scripture which hath been taught and practised in the Church since the beginning as learned men assure us and they say the second Councell of Nice do testifie 20 Min. Worship of Images is dangerous and therefore forbidden in Scripture Cath If that be so how did all the Church approve of it for so many ages and stick to it still notwithstanding your contradictions We have men of conscience and learning how is it possible they should damne themselves and others for worship of Images Min. I see there is no ground to be expected by discoursing with thee because when thou art pressed with Gods cleare Word thou dost recurre to the tradition and practise of the Church and to I know not what miracles Therefore I fear God hath delivered thee over to Sathan as an obstinate and reprobate Heretick Cath. Make it appear to me that your sense of Scripture is Gods meaning and then I will not contradict your Doctrine But I see no prudent ground to believe that your new interpretations contrary to the practise and tradition of the ancient Catholick Church should be dictated by God On the contrary side ye can not deny that we Catholicks have all the reason in the world to stick to our old sense of Scripture confirmed by so many miracles and testimonies of antiquity 21 Let this suffice to shew how illiterate Catholicks may convince the most learned Protestants Our cause is so good and cleare that common sense is enough to defend it and confound our greatest and most able adversaries No Catholick Clowne can be convinced by any learned Protestant if he be not more then ordinarily simple Truly there is nothing more incredible then that all the visible Churches of the world should have beene forsaken by God and in damnable errours for so many ages as Protestants pretend and that to reform the world God should pick out amongst all men the most â—icked who continued or rather encreased their abominable and scandalous conversation after they begun to preach their new Ghospell See the lives of all new Reformers in the three Conversions of England and in the prudentiall Ballance if you doubt of this assertion Is it not a meere foppery to thinke that 12. or 7. men who modeld the new Church of England in Edward the VI. time should judge better of Christian Faith matter and forme of Sacraments and of religious ceremonies then the Councells of Lateran and Trent and all the world in former ages Is it not impossible and contrary to Christs owne promises that the exercise of true Religion and Faith should be as invisible as the English Church is at this present in times wherein Christianity through the mercy of God doth flourish in all parts of the world The Catholick Church was never brought to be invisible by the Arrians though by them much persecuted Let any Catholick Clowne but reflect upon these and other things visible to all the world and he may confidently dispute and convince the most learned Protestant CHAP. XV. Of the difference between Christian Faith and the historicall beliefe of Protestants THat supernaturall Faith is a speciall gift of God is granted even by Protestants themselves The superuaturality of it consists not in believing an extravagant and improbable object because that may be done naturally For there is nothing however so false and improbable to the understanding that will not at length be believed by men if constantly reported to them by others of whom they have a good opinion and not contradicted by any whose testimony they value The Turks believe that Mahomet was a great Prophet and Saint The Jews believe that the Messias is not yet come The Puritans believe that every one of themselves is inspired with a Divine spirit c. And though every one of these stories be false improbable and also contradicted by Catholicks yet because these Sectaries have a good opinion of their owne Congregation and a very bad one of us Catholicks they believe the first reject and contemne the second Turks Jews and Puritans do not believe these fond articles of their own Religion with any supernaturall Faith their beliefe is meerly historical just as children believe the history of the Knight in the Sunne Don Quixote de la Manche c. All Christians have not supernaturall and Christian Faith Many who received it in their Baptisme loose it by heresie Hereticks are called Christians because they are baptized and not because they are endued with Christian beliefe They believe some mysteries of Christian Religion but with a meere historicall Faith They assent to the mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation not because God revealed them but because they are pleased to judge it very probable or certain that God revealed some such thing That their owne fancy or opinion and not Gods Revelation doth move Protestants to believe what they do believe of Christian Religion is evident
we are as much bound to have a regard to Gods honour as to our owne salvation and his honour is as much concerned in being believed without the least doubt concerning Purgatory as concerning the Trinity if both mysteries be equally or sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation 5 Seeing therefore that the selfe same Roman Catholick Church and testimony which proposed sufficiently in the yeare 1516. to Luther and all other Protestants since that time Scripture the mystery of the Trinity c. to be Divine Revelation did in the same yeare and doth now also propose Purgatory Transubstantion and other points which Protestants call not fundamentall to be revealed by God its evident that there is as great obligation of believing without any doubt Purgatory Transubstantiation and others not thought fundamentalls by Protestants as the fundamentalls But these articles which Protestants call not fundamentall can not be believed without some doubt if the Church be not infallible in proposing them as they themselves must grant by force of the parity made with their fundamentall articles Therefore the Catholick Church is as infallible in its testimony concerning not fundamentall articles being Divine Revelation as it is in fundamentalls or if not it must be fallible in both 6 Yet if matters be well considered we shall finde that its impossible to deny any article of Faith though not absolutely necessary and therefore in the opinion of Protestants of little importance but a necessary and fundamentall article must be denyed together with it There is no article of Faith more fundamentall and necessary for salvation then Gods veracity They who deny Purgatory v.g. deny Gods veracity because they who deny any thing that is sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation deny Gods veracity whether the matter proposed as revealed by him be great or small Neither can Protestants give any other reason why by denying the Trinity Gods veracity is denyed but because the Trinity is sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation Therefore if Purgatory or Transubstantiation be as sufficiently proposed as the Trinity by denying them and others the like Gods veracity is also denyed So that all articles of Faith if sufficiently proposed are fundamentall and necessary for salvation 7 My second answer to the discourse and argument of Protestants is that witnesses contradicting themselves in circumstances though of little importance are not to be prudently credited in the maine points wherein they agree The testimony of the two old Judges was not valid in the crime of adultery objected by them against Susanna Dan. 13. because though their testimonies did agree in the crime and in what was materiall to condemne her yet they varied in some circumstances not materiall What did it import as to the guilt of Susanna whether she committed adultery under a Fig-tree or a Pine Though it was a circumstance very indifferent and of little importance in it selfe yet the incoherency in it did prove that the two old mens testimonies in the maine were invalid Therefore although not fundamentall articles were not necessary for salvation yet the incoherency in such little matters doth invalid the Catholick Churches testimony even in fundamentalls and the maine points of Christian Religion Therefore it must be granted that the testimony of the Catholick Church either is not prudently credible and infallible in necessary and fundamentall articles or that it is prudently credible and infallible in not fundamentalls It followeth also out of the premises that the Catholick Church can not be all Churches of Christendome because there are not two of them whose testimonies concerning Faith do not differ at least in not fundamentall points of Religion and by consequence the testimony is absolutely incredible because incoherent Against what hitherto hath beene said some may object that the Fathers unanimously testifying fundamentall articles to be revealed by God ought to be credited though they contradict one another in matters not fundamentall Therefore the same may be said of many dissenting Churches or Congregations of Christians why should not the Catholick Church be composed of all Christians agreeing in the principall points of Christian Religion though they agree not in others of lesse importance The example of tke Babylonian Judges in the case of Susanna can not be applyed to the Catholick Church they were not credited by Daniel in the fact which they unanimously testified because the circumstance wherein they varied was so concomitant and connected with the fact it selfe that it was impossible to see one and not the other Therefore the contradicting themselves in the circumstance of the tree did demonstrate that they never saw Susanna commit adultery But no such connexion appeares betweene fundamentall and not fundamentall articles of Christian Religion the Trinity or Incarnation may be sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation by the testimony of both Protestant and Roman Church though Purgatory or Transubstantiation be onely held by Protestants to be onely a probable opinion of the Roman Clergy and consequently not sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation because it wants the concurrence of a considerable part of Christianity in the testimony which it gives of those and the like not fundamentall Tenets To the first part of this argument I say that the Fathers in their greatest differences agree in submitting their judgements to the Sea Apostolick or to a generall Councell as to the visible and infallible Judge of Controversies Not to Protestant Churches each one pretending to be Independent of the other and of the Roman also Such independency and obstinacy of judgement is wholy inconsistent with unity of Faith and identity of Church Now to the second part concerning Susanna and the two old Judges I answer that all mysteries of Christian Religion are connected in the motive of beliefe so that we can no more discover a matter of Faith without the motive then a matter of fact without its circumstance Wherefore the motive being the same in all they are all united to the motive and consequently so inseparable one from another that denying one you deny all as denying the motive whereon all and every one do rely If the greatnesse of the matter proposed or the number of proponents and not the quality of the proposall did authorise and induce the obligation of believing whatsoever the Catholick Church testifieth to be Divine Revelation the aforesaid argument might trouble Catholicks but seeing that both the testimony of few and matters not absolutely necessary for salvation may be confirmed with supernaturall signes and with true markes of the Catholick Church and Doctrine there is no necessity of obtruding upon it any Protestant Congregation thereby to give more credit Christians were not very many in the beginning of the primitive times and yet they filled up the number of the Catholick Church The Arrians were thought to be more numerous then the Catholicks and yet it was never thought necessary by any Orthodox to have the concurrence of their suffrage or testimony concerning Religion and declaring what
was fundamentall and not fundamentall I see no reason why the Catholick Church of this age should court Protestants more â—hen the Church of the fourth and fifth age did Arrians Nestorians c. I am sure the Arrians were more in number then Protestants and much more learned they had a more certaine Ordination of Priests and Bishops and many of them were of as good life and conversation as any Protestants are or were since the beginning of the pretended Reformation Why therefore should Protestants be a part of the Catholick Church and not Arrians or Nestorians If Protestants be admitted as part of the Catholick Church the Turkes Jewes and all others who believe there is one God may with reason complaine that they also are not looked upon as Catholicks For they and we agree in the two fundamentall articles which onely according the opinion of many learned Divines are necessary necessitate medij to wit that there is a God and that he is Remunerator Turkes and Jewes believe this therefore they agree both with us and Protestants in fundamentalls Let us all therefore be parts of the Catholick Church And though Jewes or Turkes be not baptized that can not prejudice them according the principles of Protestants their implicit or conditionall faith will excuse them as well as Protestants from damnation If God revealed the necessity of Baptisme or that Scripture is his VVord saith a Turke I believe both but untill that be made cleare unto me I am not more bound to believe either absoluly and without doubt then Protestants are to believe Transubstantiation I see no reason why this implicite and conditionall faith should not save Jewes and Turkes as well as Protestants if the mysteries not believed by either be equally proposed Therefore Protestants are no more part of the Catholick Church then Turkes or Jewes I am certaine we have no more need of the testimony of the one then of the other to establish what ought to be believed as Catholick Faith or what articles are fundamentall CHAP. VIII VVhether any reformed or Protestant Church of the world be the Catholick and Apostolick Church And whether their pretended clearnesse of Scripture doth sufficiently propose their doctrine as Divine Revelation 1 IN the fifth Chapter num This definition of the Church is clearly insinuated in Scripture Act. 1. v. 8. Luc. 24.48 Ioan. 18.37 Act. 5.32 Act. 2.32 Act. 4.33 Rom. 10. Math. 28. c. 2. it hath beene said that the Catholick Church is a multitude or Congregation of persons whose testimony doth so sufficiently propose their Doctrine or Faith to be Gods Word and the true meaning thereof that it is evidently imprudence and infallible damnation in any person whosoever not to acquiesce in the said testimony and not to believe without the least doubt what it proposeth as Divine Revelation The testimony of the true Catholick Church must not be credible onely to silly soules that believe any thing they heare by reason of their ignorance or because they were not rightly informed it must be credible to the most prudent and informed persons by reason that the said testimony is confirmed with so cleare signes and markes of Gods providence in planting and propagating the Faith professed by the true Church that all circumstances considered no informed and prudent person may judge any other Church to have as much as a probable appearance of the true one when they are compared with the Catholick 2 How the Protestant Churches and Reformation did beginne hath beene said in the first Chapter which supposed let us now examine whether any person can prudently believe that either the Protestant Church of England or that of Stratzburg or Zurick or Geneva be the true Catholick Church of God The ground of the beliefe of these and all other reformed Churches are reduced to two one is cleare Scripture pretended against the Roman errours as they call them the other is the private Spirit whereby they interpret the true sense of Scriptures to be contrary to the Tenets and Doctrine of the Roman Catholick Church This is all the evidence which Protestants have to prove that each of their owne Congregations is the true Spouse of Christ and that the Church of Rome is the VVhore of Babylon Miracles they do not pretend to and as for the two other signes which most of their Authors brag of that is the sincere preaching of the Word of God and the lawfull administration of the Sacraments these two can not be knowne nor perceived untill that whereupon they depend be first known to be the true sense of Scripture or the true Faith be knowne But when the true Faith is knowne we have no more need of signes to bring us to the knowledge of it or the true Church that professeth it then a Pilot hath of markes to be guided by into the haven after he is within safe and at anchor Therefore these two signes of Protestant are not true signes because they are as unknowne and as hard to be found out as the Church it selfe which â—s contrary to the nature and essence of a true signe 3 As for the first ground of Protestancy and Reformation which is the pretended clearnesse of Scripture against the Doctrine of the Roman Church it can as little confirme the testimony of the Church of England or Zurick c. as the Turkes Alcoran First they tell us that Scripture is against Transubstantiation Purgatory worship of Images c. We deny it and bring at least as cleare texts of Scripture for our selves as Protestants do against us They say the words and sense of Scripture are so cleare against our Doctrine that none can deny them Yet we reply that we are not so impious nor obstinate as to maintaine Doctrine point blank against Gods Word and sense Now the question is whether the testimony of Protestant Churches against us or ours in our owne behalfe and defence concerning the clearnesse of Scripture be most credible to sober and prudent men I answer that the testimony of Catholicks of the obscurity of Scripture against Transubstantiation worship of Images c. is not onely more credible then the testimony of Protestants to the contrary but also that the testimony of Protestants saying that Scripture is cleare against Transubstantion worship of Images Purgatory c. may be demonstrated to be false 4 That this may not be thought a vaine undertaking suppose that our controversie with Protestants concerning the clearnesse and obscurity of Scripture in controverted points is to be understood after all combinations and confronting of texts which seeme to have relation oâ— dependence one of the other I suppose also that somâ— Catholick Doctors have read and considered Scripture and all controverted texts as diligently as Protestants aâ— may appeare by their printed Bookes wherein they answer all Objections made by Luther Calvin Iewell c. 〈◊〉 thinke it also no discredit for Protestants to admit thaâ— at least some of our learned men and
by examining the truth of the mysteries we believe that is to be supposed and not disputed To be a good Controvertist is not to give reason of what you believe but to give reason why you believe what you understand not this last requires no Greek or Hebrew nor Schoole learning and therefore may be as well performed by a Catholick Clowne is by a Bachelour of Oxford or Cambridge 10 Now to descend to particular methods hereby the learned Protestants may be convinced by illiterate Catholicks I will onely mention two both of them very ordinary and usuall amongst the most vulgar sort of people The first is by asking of Protestants What newes of Religion The second by inquiring of them by what right or warrant do they condemne any article of the Roman Catholick Faith I do seriously averre that every Countrey-man who hath wit and judgement enough to except at the Assises against an illegall and false witnesse hath leaming enough to convince in controversies of Religion the most learned Protestant Minister And every carrier or husbandman who hath so much wit and judgement as not to believe an extravagant and incredible history or ballads of some strange feigned Monster hath wit and judgement enough to convince any Protestant whosoever The reason of this Assertion is very cleare because there was never so incredible a Monster or Chymera composed of so many contradictions and impossibilities as this new fangled Religion framed by the fancies of a company of dissolute Priests and Friars pretending to have beene enlightened by the Spirit of God and sent by an extraordinary calling without miracles to reforme not onely the manners but also the Doctrine of the Catholick Church What Countrey Clowne amongst Catholicks can be persuaded to believe that all this which the first Protestants pretend is true Is it not obvious to every rationall creature that God never made use of so wicked instruments to reforme the world and plant the true Religion What evidence do Reformers produce against the Doctrine of the Roman Church what witnesses what signes to confirme their testimonies Do Protestants agree amongst themselves All this will be more clearly understood by the ensuing Conference betweene a Catholick Clowne and a learned Protestant Minister SECT II. A Dialog betweene a learned Protestant Minister and a Catholick Clowne 11 CAth. What newes good Master Doctor of your English Protestant Church Minist As much persecuted as ever Bapists were by Queen Elizabeth There is liberty given to all Sectaries Anabaptists Quakers c. we onely are excepted against Cath. I see no reason why ye Protestants should not be reformed by Puritans and Quakers as ye reformed us Catholicks I am sure they bring as many texts of Scripture against your Doctrine and Discipline as ye did against ours Minist We reformed onely your Papisticall abuses that were contrary to the cleare Word of God Cath. The same thing do Puritans or Presbyterians say against you But it s incredible newes to me that which you tell me of any abuses we should have in our Church contrary to the expresse Word of God Minist Didst thou ever read the Scripture Cath. No truly Minist I knew so much the reason why ye are not permitted to read the Bible is that ye may not discover the errours which Jesuits and other Masse Priests teach ye as the respect to Images and Statues praying to Saints Purgatory c. These and many more are clearly contradicted by Scripture Cath. Though I were permitted to read Scripture I can not because I never learned to read Yet I have spoken with many learned men who read Scripture and they all unanimously assure me that there is not one word in all Scripture contradicting worship of Images praying to Saints or Purgatory Now I see no reason why I should reject their testimony and take yours 12 Minist Faith is a gift of God thou must not tye it to any mans sleeve pray to God that he may give thee his Spirit Cath. I have heard much of a Spirit that every one of ye Protestants and Puritans pretend to have but I could never see any effect or signe of it Minist We Protestants pretend no such Spirit Cath. How come ye then to alter the old sense of Scripture which was in England for a thousand yeares before Edward the VI. if no Spirit did inspire or interpret the Scripture after the reformed fashion why did ye not stick to the old way Minist Because we could not in consciences there being so many cleare texts against Popery Cath. That is incredible for in the space of a thousand yeares some man or other would meet with those cleare texts Minist Well thou art an honest fellow we will not dispute thou art not capable of understanding what I have to answer to that objection of thine Cath. Nay good Master Doctor trust my understanding for once I pray resolve my doubt Min. Truly I must deale clearly with thee I am of opinion that for the space of one thousand yeares past all Roman Catholicks did hold damnable Doctrine manifestly contrary to Scripture yet I believe their ignorance did excuse them from damnation 13 Caeh How is it possible that there should be so much ignorance in all the world for the space of a thousand yeares that none could see those cleare texts of Scripture which you and other Protestants pretend to see Min. Mistake me not Countreyman the texts of Scripture which we produce against your errours and superfluities are not so very cleare but that they may be misunderstood if God doth not enlighten the understanding as he hath done to us Protestants Cath. I thought you pretended no such Spirit or private inspiration I heare reported by credible Authors that the first Protestants or Reformers in every Countrey were dissolute Piests or Friars who married and lived not so exemplarly as the Catholick Clergy doth Therefore I can not persuade my selfe that God would enlighten them more then us at least I am not bound to believe it unlesse I see miracles or some other markes of sanctity which is more then ever I perceived as yet in any of your Religion I hope you will pardon my freedome Min. I warrant thou dost believe all the miracles that are reported to have beene done at Loreto Sichem and other Chappell 's Didst thou ever see any miracle thy selfe Cath. No indeed but I have seene others who were present at the working of strange miracles as that of Naples when the Jefuit Mastrilli was cured on a sudden by Saint Francis Xaverius and sent by him to lapon where he dyed a Martyr Many others I have heard testified by credible Authors that I have as much reason to believe as any who should endeavour to persuade me the contrary therefore trouble not your selfe in this matter unlesse you will have me doubt of all things I heare because I have been deceived in something Min. Why believe not ye our miracles as ye would have us believe
propension to make our selves Scripture as our selves shall interpret it or which is the same the Rule or Judge of Controversies Therefore it s no supernaturall action nor no meritorious act to believe after this manner as Protestants do for men have no difficulty in believing themselves and they believe themselves not God when their own interpretation of Scripture is followed against that of the Church It remaines now a reason be given Why do Protestants believe the most obscure and difficult mysteries of Christian Religion if their Faith be meerly historicall How can they without a supernaturall power and favour believe that the Scripture is Gods Word the Trinity the mystery of Incarnation c. To this doubt I answer that as I said in the beginning of this Chapter there is no difficulty in believing the most improbable and extravagant things when they are told us by persons we credit and are not contradicted by any whose testimony we value In matters of Religion Protestants value no men but Christians and such mysteries as they believe are not contradicted by any Christians at least in our parts of the world They believe therefore all they believe because they have been told so by their Parents and others who had the charge of instructing them and not because God revealed it which is the onely motive of Christian and supernaturall Faith It s a received principle that he who denyes one article of Christian Religion believes none at all It can not be said that he believes none with historicall beliefe as Protestants believe the mystery of the Trinity Incarnation and Scripture to be Gods Word The meaning of all Divines is that he who denyes one article of Faith believes none at all with Christian or supernaturall beliefe This is most true for to believe like a Christian is to believe the mysteries of Christian Religion because they are sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation by the testimony of the Church not of every Church but of the true Catholick one which onely giveth lawfull authority and sends Preachers and Doctors to instruct the people God hath not promised his helpe and supernaturall inspiâ—ations which are necessary to believe with Christian Faith to them who are unsent uncalled unconsecrated but onely to such lawfull Ministers as are appointed and ordained by them who derive their Doctrine and succession from the Apostles through a never interrupted line That no Church but the Roman Catholick doth propose sufficiently as Divine Revelation the Doctrine which they preach hath been proved in the 8. Chapt. whence it followeth that out of the Roman Catholick Church there can be no true Faith nor salvation and that to deny one article of Faith in the least matter is to deny all because the motive of our beliefe is denyed as much in a little matter as in the greatest See the 7. Chap. The motive being denyed or rejected nothing can be believed with Christian Faith because of the motive depends all An infallible argument of denying the motive of Christian Faith is to contemne the testimony of that Congregation of men which hath the signes of being the true Catholick Church as a legall and orderly succession of Doctors and Doctrine conversion of Nations Miracles and markes of so eminent and extraordinary sanctity of life that the like was never found in Heathen Philosophers but farre exceeds all that hath beene discovered in any that wanted supurnaturall grace as is the entire renunciation of all the worldly pleasure profit and honour an inflamed affection towards God and his glory with an unfatigable zeale of the salvation of soules and desire of suffering for Christs sake whereof we Catholicks alone have an infinite number of undeniable examples No other but the Roman Church can as much as pretend to have the signes of the true Church as miracles remarkable either in number or quality c. Therefore whosoever denyes one article of the Roman Religion denyth also the motive of Catholick Faith which as we have proved is proposed onely by the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church and consequently he who doth not stick to it believes nothing at all with Christian and supernaturall Faith The very Devils and damned soules have the Protestant or historicall beliefe God who is Author of all graces and favours both naturall and supernaturall grant to all Protestants that pretious gift of Faith without which it is impossible to please His Divine Majesty or to obtaine the end whereunto we were all created FINIS