it be of like authoritie with the proper writtings of the Apostles Answere The first question was whether the Creed were made by the Apostles Whereunto hath beene rendred sufficient answere After which it is lawfull to make the second demand which is diuers from that Obiection The second dependeth on the first and so hath it been made Whether it bee thought sufficiently answered let the iudgement thereof be referred to the reader Answere Because it dependeth thereupon it is not therefore the same Question Whether they approoue the Creed onely because they know it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles Or whether there any other cause which incyteth them to beleeue it Answere It is not onely conformable but the doctrine it selfe and for that cause doo they beleeue it and approoue it Question Whether a man be not bound to receiue it but for so much as hee knoweth it to bee the same writing or conformable to the writings of the Apostles as is aforesaid Answere The principall cause that may moue him that beleeueth it to beleeue it is the knowledge afore spoken of Question Although this be the principall cause they require an absolute answere whether there be not other sufficient cause to beleeue it in such wise as this first is necessarie Answere For the Creed and euery other thing we beleeue the principall cause is the knowledge we haue that the same hath bene left in writing or collected of the writings of the Prophets and Apostles And we for our part seeke no other reason but that of the faith which we haue Obiection They answere not vnder correction to the question which is whether to receiue the Creed of the Apostles this cause be necessary to know the cōformitie of the said Creed with the writings of the Apostles and that without the same none can or ought to receiue it The Doctors pray them to auoyd circumlocution and answere absolutely the one or the other And more simply to explane the question this it is to wit whether one ought not to receiue the Creed of the Apostles but because he knoweth that it is conformable to the Apostles writings Answere The matter considered after the doctrine of S. Paul that there is no true faith without knowledge and assurance of the word to beleeue it behoueth to know that it is the word of God Question It would be knowne whether they vnderstand this word to be written or not written Answere The word written and reuealed by the Prophets and Apostles which is the foundation of the Christian faith Obiection The Ministers doo then maintaine that before the beleeuing of the Creed or proposing it to be beleeued it behoueth to be instructed or to instruct an other in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets Now that is contrary to all the order euer holden in the Church and contrary to that which is contained in the forme prescribed for administration of the Sacraments in the Church at Geneua made by Caluin and inserted amongst his workes which beareth these words addressed to them that haue charge of the childe they baptise For as much as the matter wee haue in hand is to receiue this childe into the fellowship of the Christian Church yea do promise whē it shal come to yeares of discretion to instruct it in the doctrine which is receiued and approued of Gods people And after these words is inserted the Creed after which it is said they shall proceed to the instruction of the childe in all the doctrine contained in the holy scripture of the olde and new Testament so that before they propose the Creed to be beleeued they propose not to be beleeued that there is any word of God written nor what it is nor that therein contained to know the conformitie of the Creed with the same Also they place not the foundation of the beleeuing of the Creed vpon the knowledge and conformitie of the scripture but vpon the doctrine receiued and approued by the people of God As the auncient Church yea before the scriptures of the new Testament were written did wontedly propose both to great and small the beliefe of the Creed before they proposed the holy scriptures vnto them as by Christian antiquities appeareth And therefore the beliefe of a Christian touching the Creed dependeth not on the written word but vpon the word reuealed to the people and church of God Answere Touching the first article it is very necessarie that in teaching a childe or any other ignorant person the Creed of the Apostles they also forthwith teach him the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets seeing that which is contained in the Creed is no other thing but the selfe-same doctrine and that they are things not onely conioyned but also like if not in words yet at least in sence and substance Touching the second article they denie that that abouesaid is any way cōtrary to the established order in the church of Geneua or any other well gouerned Church And as touching the reason drawne frō the forme of the Baptisme vsed in the said Churches it followeth not by the alledged words and sayings thereof that Caluin proposed thē to exclude the Creed and to seperate the same from the writings and doctrine of the Prophets Apostles which is impossible but plainly to shewe that when he added that word hee meant therin to comprehend it and generally which the Doctors haue omitted in their allegation to comprehend that which remaineth in the holy scriptures after the deduction he had made of the points of doctrine particularly comprised in the Creed And for the other reason added that the Creed was proposed to those that were catechised before any booke of the new Testament was written they grant it But it followeth not therefore that it was not founded on the word and doctrine which the Apostles did preach although then not put in writing And likewise on the writings of the Prophets wherevpon is founded the doctrine of the Apostles For conclusion the Ministers put no difference as touching the sence betweene the word of God preached and written Obiection The Ministers it seemeth haue not well conceiued the meaning of the Doctors For the question is not whether the Creed bee conformable in it selfe to the writings Apostolike but whether it first behoueth to beleeue and vnderstand that the Apostles and Prophets haue put a doctrine in writing vnto which the Creed is conformable and that otherwise the Creed cannot bee beleeued And for more easie explanation the question is whether it be not possible for a childe being come to yeares of discretion or any other by the instruction of the father and mother or others to beleeue the articles of the Creed without being first instructed by them that there are certaine Apostolike writings vnto which the Articles of the Creed are conformable And whether to moue them so to beleeue it be necessary to know that conformitie Let the Ministers absolutely answere therevnto Answere Faith
is by hearing and hearing by the word of God wherevnto agreeth that which Iesus Christ saith putting the hearing of the word before the faith thereof saying He that heareth my word and beleeueth in him that sent me c. Also that which hee commaunded the Apostles first to preach the Gospell that the hearers might by preaching be disposed and brought to the faith For these reasons knowledge that the doctrine which is taught is the word of God is necessarie to beleeue And without that it is not possible for a man to haue faith or beleeue in God except he be first assured that what is taught him is the word of God And for the demaund made touching the instruction of children growne to yeares of discretion or others whether it be requisite they should know the word before they beleeue it The answere is yea And Thomas himselfe saith that the faith of the articles of the Creed ought to be expounded that is to say cleared which cannot be done without the knowledge of the word Obiection In such an answere there is multiplying of words without ought touching the point proposed for they doubt not but that they ought to Catechise children and others and to expound by the word of God the Articles of the Creed vnto them but the question is whether they must vnderstand that this Word is written in the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles so that without the knowledge of those writings they cannot haue the knowledge and beliefe of the articles of the faith contained in the said Creed The Doctors pray the Ministers to answere yea or no and after their answere to adde what reasons they will Which thing if they will not do the Doctors will proceed to an other article after notwithstanding for conclusion of all they haue shewed vnto them that if this knowledge of the scriptures were necessarie to vnderstand the articles of the Creed in examining them according to the conformitie of the same scriptures that it behooueth sith the foundation is so necessarie to place this among the Articles of the Creed I beleeue that there be holy scriptures And it is to be noted that there is not any mention made in the said Creed that there are holy scriptures So that a man may be truly a Christian before he vnderstand that there is any Christian doctrine and word of God written And therfore to beleeue and vnderstand the Creed it is not necessary to knowe the word of God to be written And the Doctors do protest that they will speake no more of this article Answere By conference of the demaunds and answeres it is easie to iudge who more abound in speech they which propound or they that answere Touching the second article the answere is as before that to beleeue and be a Christian the knowledge of Gods word is necessarie whether the said word be written or reuealed And as touching the remonstrance made the Ministers do answere that they for their part will in no wise allow men should ought adde to the pure word of God And they beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles is nothing else but the pure word of God which is proposed vnto vs by his spirit saying that it should bee a breach against his commandement to adde therevnto new articles And they do maintaine that had there bene other articles which had bene necessary to saluation the spirit of God would not haue omitted nor forgotten them For conclusion albeit no expresse mention bee made of the holy scripture in the Creed yet so much is there couertly vnderstood that the Church which cannot stand if shee be not built and founded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles is there proposed for an article to beleeue Reply The Doctors say that this answere is impertinent and no more to the purpose then the former And although the Prophets and Apostles had not written yet had the Church bin built vpon their foundation as it was in the time of AbrahaÌ„ and before there was any scripture which were it necessary to saluation it had bene put amongst the articles of faith Answere The Ministers say that this reply is yet more impertiment and for the reason thereto added that the faith was in the time of Abraham although there were no word written they do agree therevnto But it is ill inferred there is no written word There is therefore no word And it is a fallacie in argument which the Logicians doo call A dicto secundum quid ad dictuÌ„ simpliciter From a qualified saying to a saying simple The fourth dayes Dispute on Fryday the 12. of Iuly THe Ministers do shewe that they still continue their former requests considering the protestations aforesaid made by the Doctors who haue twise declared that they were not assembled but onely to satisfie the Lord Montpensier and my Lady of Buillon considering also the request publikely made by the said Lady in the assembly to bee instructed in the point of the Supper and not vpon the others whereof she thinketh her selfe sufficiently instructed and not to need therein any further teaching And for these causes do the Ministers request as before they haue done that the first thing whereof they shall conferre be that of the Supper and of the Masse And the rather for that they vnderstood by some worthy of credit that the Doctors intend not to enter into conference vpon that point Vpon this declaration the Doctors say that they are ashamed to heare so often protestations and that the Ministers it seemeth will thus spend the time to flee eftsoones the Conference of the articles of their confession which neuerthelesse they haue oftentimes set forth to be examined And where they say that Madame de Buillon for instruction of whom the company is assembled hath required publikely to bee instructed in the articles of the Masse and in no other They say that some mention shee made for Conference of the Masse but they neuer heard say that she held her selfe sufficiently instructed concerning the other articles The Doctors do offer that if the said Lady will confesse that she beleeueth all the other articles proposed by the Ministers and their like against the doctrine of the Catholike Church to be eâ—ronious they are presently readie to enter into Conference of the Masse But contrariwise if she be seduced with errors contrary to the doctrine of the Church Catholike to keepe the order which appertaineth to instructors and to lay the foundatioÌ„ of the Masse the Doctors haue determined according to the good holy desâ—e of my lord Montpensier to carâ—chife teach the Lady his daughter coÌ„cerning euery article by order And they further say that the Ministers do what they of their Church are accustomed which is alwaies to flie back froÌ„ the Confereâ—ence with the Catholikes and be forâ—the point proposed by them be decided they put an other in Dispute as did Beâ—a and the Ministers with him at Poissy who
seeing the Supper was to be handled against theÌ„ in the chamber of the Prior of Poissy in the preâ—â—ce of the Queen of the Prinoes of bloud of the Lords of the Councell they often requested to leaue that point vndecided hand to enter into some other which should be more euident against the Catholikes as of Images and other things And contrariwise the Ministers to auoyd now the great 〈◊〉 which be in their interpretation of the Creed would set forth the point of the Supper The Doctors beseech as they haue 〈◊〉 that there be no confusion in their doing and 〈◊〉 their religioâ—e examined by order and that it be noâ— thought that the Doctors doo refuse â—o enter into the Conference of the Masse and the Supper as they haue alwaies determined and neuer said vnder correction of all persons that they would not conferre theerof for my Ladies briefe instruction they are readie to dispute thereof by word of mouth and plainly to shewe by the expresse word of God that Iesus Christ instituted and said Masse and his Apostles also They do also offer that whatsoeuer shall be said by word of mouth vpon this matter be put in writing the next day after to be placed in it order as the instruction of my Lady doth require And do referre them for the day to the said Ladies opportunitie The Ministers do answere that all these answeres are superfluous and vnprofitable for as much as all such Conferences are nothing but debates and alâ—rications which doâ— offend and scandalize more then they edifie The Resolution of the Doctors THe Doctors ensuing the order alreadie begun and their charge which is to conferre with the Ministers and afterwards to giue a resolution for the instruction of my Lady of Buillon vpon the two points proposed yesterday to wit whether the Apostles were authors of the Creed And why we ought to beleeue it They say that to know whether the Apostles did make and erect the Creed ought no more to be esteemed a thing indifferent then to know whether the Apostles be authors of their owne writings For much more is the authoritie of them when a man is assured that they are certainly proceeded from the Apostles And contrariwise it should be far lesse if men did doubt therof or esteem it a thing indifferent Moreouer they say that it is no sufficient reason to call this Creed Apostolike and to intitle it the Creed of the Apostles in regard of the conformitie it hath with their writings For by this reason the other Creeds as that of Nice of Athâ—nâ—sius and all other the like writings may as well be named the Creed of the Apostles because they containe a doctrine agreeable to the Apostles writings Therefore say the Doctors it must be beleeued that the Apostles did make it and gaue the same Creed vnto Christians and that it must be beleeued as being a writing composed by the Apostles And their proofe thereof is that they alwayes finde since the Apostles time vntil now that this Creed hath bene proposed in Baptisme and Catechisme as it appeareth by the authors which haue beene from the Apostles vnto vs. And also that no man can name or note any Author or Councell but euen before that Author or Councell immediately to the Apostles time that Creed hath beene proposed in Baptisme and Cat chisme and called among Christians the rule of faith And the like argument S. Augustine in many places against the Donatists doth esteeme to be firme and inâ—incible to proue and shew that something is from the Apostles They willingly omit to auoyd â—ediousnesse the auncient writers as S. Ambrose S. Ierome others who acknowledge this Creed to haue bene made and receiued namely of the Apostles For the second point the Doctors do affirme that the bond and necessitie to beleeue this Creed doth not depend oâ— the knowledge of the Apostolike or Propheticaâ—â— scriptures nor on the knowledge of the conformitie with them For it was made and coâ—â—ained among the Christians in Baptisme before there was any Apostolike writing And in Baptisme they proposed the said Creed to be beleeued before they entâ—ed into the scripture or to speake thereof And in the Primatiue Church they examined the scriptures whether they were to be receiued or nor and the vndeâ—standing of them and whether a doctrine were true or false by this Creed and rule of faith and by it likenesse or conformitie with the same Ireneus Tertullian and others do teach it And although it should so happen that a man had neuer heard but the Creed without knowing whether there be holy scriptures or not hee might beleeue the said Creed and be a true Christian so that hee were voyd of other particular false opinion And contrariwise if the beliefe of the Creed did depend vpon the knowledge of the Propheticall oâ— Apostolike scriptures to vnderstand and to be assured of the conformitie that is therein as 〈◊〉 as to beleeue it 〈◊〉 none but the learned and well exercised in the scriptures who should bee assured of the said conformitie should be bound to beleeue the Creed or should at least be assured of the truth thereof And so should there he very fewe Christians Therfore the belleâ—ing of the Creed doth not depend vpon the knowledge of the scriptures By meanes whereof the Doctors do hold by tradition of the Church 〈◊〉 by the holy Ghost that the Creed is the Apostle and that none ought to doubt therof And by the same tradition it must be beleeued as 〈…〉 of the Apostles of like authoritie with that in their writings although they had no knowledge of the other scriptures And the Doctors are sory that they haue so much declined from answering pertinently and absolutely to these two points which they haue onely proposed to shew what faith and authoritie men ought to giue to this Creed and to all other doctrine receiued by tradition of the Apostles without Canonicall scripture which they will proue to haue bene left by them by the same meane and reason by which is shewed the Creed to haue bin deliuered to the Christians by the Apostles without that they put the same in writing Finally the Doctors do admonish such as read this Conference not to be astonished nor maâ—uell at so many perplexed declinings from the true end of the said points proposed And do pray them to remember the conferences made by S. Augustine with the Donatists and Pellagians wherin they shall finde like maner of dealing as that of the Ministers with whom they do conferre And for the present Conference referre themselues to the readers iudgement The Resolution of the Ministers THe Ministers following that which before hath bene proposed and alwaies by them maintained and for the confirmation also of the faith of the Lady of Buillon say that it is vncertaine as S. Ciprien hath written whether the Creed called the Apostles was made composed by them or else drawne or gathered out of their
doctrine and why also it is called the Apostles Creed or whether it is because each of them added his part and portion therevnto or else whether it be because it is a marke and certaine ensigne of Christian Religion And as touching the same that it is a thing indifferent to saluation in as much as it hath alwaies one waight and authoritie be it that the Apostles haue written it or that it hath beene faithfully gathered out of theyr writings So haue also the Creeds as well of Nice as of Athanasius whereof the Church hath neuer doubted but that they containe a pure Apostolike doctrine as shee hath euidently declared in ordaining that the said Nicen Creede should bee publikely proposed and published to the people on the dayes of theyr assembly to communicate which at this day is yet obserued in the Church of Rome where that Creed is read or sung euery Sabaoth in their Churches And did it not containe Apostolike doctrine it should withstand the 59. Article of the Councell of Laodicia in which it is forbidden to read in the Church any thing proposed of priuate inuention but onely the doctrine comprised in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament the number whereof is there made The Ministers say further that the reason and principall motiue of the faith which Christians giue to the Creed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure word of God and him that teacheth it do they also maintaine to bee the word of God as may appeare by that which S. Paul writeth who after he had proposed to the Corinthians the death buriall and resurrection of Iesus Christ which be the chiefe articles of the Creed and those vpon which principally iustification is grounded addeth these words That hee deliuered vnto them that which he receiued to wit that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was afterwards buried and that he arose againe the third day according to the scriptures Iesus Christ also proposing his death and resurrection to the two Disciples alledged to them the scriptures thereby to assure them saying O fooles and slowe of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken ought not Christ to haue suffered these things and to enter into his glorie And hee began at Moyses and the Prophets and interpreted vnto them in all the scriptures the things that were written of him In the selfe-same Chapter appearing after his resurrection euen before the Creed was made proposing vnto them his death and resurrection to assure them thereof hee alledged vnto them the scriptures saying It is thus written and thus it behoued Christ to suffer and rise againe from the dead the third day Whence may be inferred that for the foundation of faith and assurance of the articles of the same there is no better means then to propose the scriptures And although in the time of the birth of the Church the Creed was proposed to those that were Catechised before the Apostles and Euangelists had put any thing in writing it followeth not therefore that there were no other scriptures wherevpon euery article of the faith might be builded And to decsare the same particularly The article of the creation hath it foundation vpon the beginning of Genesis The article of the almightinesse of God hath it foundation vpon the 40. Chapter of Esay and diuers other places of the scripture The article of the conception of Iesus Christ vpon the 7. Chapter of Esay For the place of his birth vpon the 5. of Micheas and in respect of the time vpon the 49. of Genesis and the 9. of Daniel The article of the death and of the Crosse vpon the 22. Psalme 53. Chapter of Esay and 9. of Daniel The article of the Resurrection vpon the 16. Psalme The article of the Ascention vpon the 68. Psalme The article of the iudgement in Daniel 12. The article of the sending of the holy Ghost in Ioel 2. The article of the Church Esay 2. and Micheas 4. The article of the remissiof sinnes vpon the 32. Psalme and 37. of Ezec. The article of the resurrecton of the flesh and life eternall in Daniel the 12. By this discourse and places of scripture quoted it may appeare to euery man that there were cleare and euident scriptures to ground all the articles of the faith vpon before the Creed was put in writing and that men might ought to alledge them to those that were catechised to assure them of that which was proposed vnto them to be beleeued And it is not possible that a man can beleeue that hath not first heard and vnderstood the Word and that is not assured thereof and holdeth it as certaine and more also were it possible then things conceiued and comprised by Mathematicall demonstration as it appeareth by the definition of faith when the Apostle calleth it Hypostasin elenchon That is to say the euidence of things which are not seene The Ministers do adde that it implyeth a contradiction to call the Creed a doctrine not written and yet to affirme that the Apostles haue written it And they cannot shewe how long it was an vnwritten doctrine and at what time it began to be written And the Ministers are much displeased in that they which conferre with them doo not more propose the edification as well of those that bee present at this Conference as of others which may see and read the Acts thereof For where as they might handle and decide points tending to edification of the simple they stay on proposing and handling some things whereof they no way doubt which is as much as to proue a thing confessed and resolued on and to light a candle at noone-day And they assure themselues that they which shal read the acts of this Conference will not at all bee abashed because they decline to treat of that point whereof they be so oft required for that as Iesus Christ saith he that doth euill fleeth the light For conclusion the Ministers do protest to confesse and beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles in euery article therof is the pure word of God and in the faith wherof it behoueth euery faithfull man to stay and petseuere vnto the end So that they would no way receiue nor approue the man in their Churches that should denie or ought doubted of the said articles Reply The Doctors will proue that the doctrine of the Ministers containeth points contrarie to the principall articles of the Creed The first is against the article of the Almightinesse of God when as they say and teach that God cannot cause one body to be in two places The second is against the article of the creation when as they say that God not onely permitteth euil and sinne to be done but also himselfe doth it The third is that one while they denie and an other while they confesse for an article of faith that the Virgin Marie remaineth a Virgin after
Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
may brag and vsurpe to haue this spirit particularly promised vnto him And as touching the particular inspiration of Esay it was not founded on his onely fancie and presumption but on the assurance that God gaue him by a worke supernaturall as is said in the 6. Chapter And further it was not yet sufficiently founded to bee beleeued as hauing inspiration had he not shewed the same by other effects and by other Prophesies already come to passe As it behooueth euery Prophet should doo before he were beleeued But leauing all those things as farre fetched and from the first proposition I referre the iudgement as before Answere There is not one of the Church if he be a ture member therof vnto whom the spirit of God is not communicated As S. Paul and S. Iohn in his first Catholique Epistle teacheth And as touching the pretended presumption there is great difference betweene the presumption and imaginations of the spirit of man which is but darkenesse and of it selfe knoweth nothing of the thing of God and the reuelations of the holy Ghost which are certaine and assured And where it is said that the answeres are farre off from the first proposition if it be so the demaâ—nds are so also Obiection The conclusion is if each one ought to be beleeued in saying hee hath a particular reuelation of the holy Ghost without otherwise shewing that they are holy Scriptures and that there is difference amongst them let euery one iudge if the demands and answeres be pertinent to this difficultie or no. And forasmuch as some of the newe doctrine doo shew no proofe more then others of their particular inspirations whether the one ought to be more beleeued then the other concerning the same Answere By the former answeres it hath beene declared how the reuelations pretended by particular persons ought to be examined by the meanes by which men may iudge whether they be of the spirit of God or no. Then spake Doctor Vigor saying that in the discourse aforesaid he had vnderstood many sayings contained in the answers of the Minister which were against the word of God as when he said that it behooueth first to honour the Sonne before the father Which the said Vigor reproouing the said Spyna maintained that thing to bee true affirming such proposition to be grounded and contained in the holy Scripture as in the Gospel and first Catholique Epistle of S. Iohn Vnto which Vigor replyed that in the said places the word First is not found Neuertheles least he fall on that which hath beene put forth and proposed in the beginning of the conference he wil not now enter into the confutation of that saying reseruing it to the end of all the conferences Answere The said Spyna required that Vigor should quote the places of the Scripture which hee pretended to bee contrarie to that was contained in his answere And where it is said that it first behoueth to glorifie the Sonne before the Father according as it is written in the places aboue noted for confirmation of his saying hee proposeth this reason founded on the Scripture We cannot know the Father if we haue not knowne the Sonne Wee cannot glorifie the Father if we haue not knowne him Therefore it followeth that the knowledge and glory of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glory of the father which being referred by the said Vigor to be more amply handled in the end and conclusion of all the conference the said Spyna is so contented Obiection The sayd Vigor without wading further in this dispute obiecteth that by the same reason alledged by the said De Spyna It followeth that it first behooueth to honour the Father before the Sonne for by the Father wee come to the knowledge of the Sonne as it appeareth by that which our Lord sayd to Saint Peter Caro sanguis non reuelauit tibi sed pater meus qui in Coelis est Flesh and blood hath not reuealed this vnto thee but my Father which is in the heauens Where it is manifest that the heanenly Father did reueale to Saint Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon the sayd Vigor doeth thus argue If the reason of the sayd De Spyna bee good by the Father wee know the Sonne it behooueth then to honour the Father before the Sonne Answere To follow the order of the knowledge we may haue of Iesus Christ and of his Father proposed vnto vs in S. Iohn It behooueth to beginne by the Sonne and from the Sonne to come to the Father For Saint Phillip hauing once required that hee would shew vnto him and his other companions his Father hee said vnto him Phillip hee that hath seene me he hath seene my Father To teach them that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is the precedent knowledge of the Sonne which may bee also confirmed by that which is else where written where Iesus Christ saieth That no man knoweth the Father but the Sonne onely and hee to whom the Sonne will reueale him And to answere the authoritie of Saint Matthew alledged by the sayd Vigor the sayd De Spyna sayeth that in the text by him produced there is no mention made of the knowledge of the Father nor of the meane to come vnto it But onely of the reuelation made by the grace of GOD and his holy Spirite vnto Saint Peter and his other fellowes to know IESVS CHRIST and the Father in him Whereupon Vigor sayde hee referred himselfe to the hearer and reader that his obiection is not answere dreseruing for another Conference to treat more amply of that point if hee will maintaine it least hee should fall vpon that which hath beene formerly proposed whereunto the sayd De Spyna answered that hee so agreed The sayde Vigor vpon an answere made by the sayde De Spina where hee putteth difference betweene the certaine reuelation made by the Lord to a particular person and the holy Scripture addeth that hee is abashed of the same answere considering that men beleeue not the holy Scripture But in that they are acertained that the Lord is authour thereof who cannot lye Then likewise that if a particular man haue assurance that the reuelation is made vnto him by the Lorde or else that one is assured of the reuelation made to another as much is hee bound to giue faith to the reuelation as to the Scripture The which saying also hee will not as hee may handle and declare at large but come presently to the first question which is not yet resolued And prayeth the sayd De Spina to set forward the same Answere Where the sayde Vigor is abashed that the sayde De Spina should say in one of his answeres That the reuelation of the Lord and the word were things different the same is befalne him for not well conceiuing the sence of the saying For De Spina will not put difference touching the certainty
body Moreouer in numbring of the errors sometimes coÌ„demned by the facultie of Paris it is expresly said That the heauen by them called Empyreum is the place of Angels of blessed spirits and glorified humane bodies Where the Doctors pretend that of the doctrine which the Ministers maintaine that a body cannot be without place nor in many places at one instant may be inferred that they blaspheme the omnipotencie of God The Ministers contrariwise say that the Doctors blaspheme his Maiestie and diminish the same in attributing to the creature that which appertaineth to him alone to wit to be vncircumscript As it appeareth by that which Didimus saith in his booke of the holy Ghost where he proueth that the holy Ghost is God not a creature because he is incircumscript and that al creatures necessarily be circumscript and limited As much thereof also say S. Basil and Vigilius and the Mr. of the sentences in his first booke Where they confesse that the Angels and blessed spirits be circumscript although they be not corporall This reason is against themselues and proper to proue what the Ministers haue here aboue maintained of bodies to wit that it cannot be but that they be circumscript in some place For by an argument froÌ„ the lesse to the more If the Angels which want dimension and measure by their own confession in as much as they be creatures be necessarily circumscript by a more strong reason the bodies of men which be creatures and measured shall be so likewise And where they adde that the auncient Fathers haue not said that one body by the power of God could not be in diuers places That is contrary to the saying of S. Augustine in his 30. tract vpon S. Iohn which is recited De consec distinct 2. C. Prima quideÌ„ Where speaking of the body of Iesus Christ he saith namely It behooueth that the body of our Lord wherin he rose again be in one place teaching therby that at one selfe-same time it cannot be in diuers places And touching the reason they adde taken froÌ„ the Sacrament to proue their assertioÌ„ the Ministers say that the fathers neuer vnderstood nor said that the body of Iesus Christ was in heauen and in the Sacrament in one selfe same sort maner nor do they teach that he was otherwise then Sacramentally in the Sacrament And wheras in their resolutioÌ„ they pretend to proue that the Angels may at one self instant be in diuers places when the Ministers shall haue vnderstood their reasons then they wil answere therevnto That which they say of a body it being dispoiled of it dimensions ceaseth not to be a body notwithstanding is a very absurd thing For did it happen that a corporal substance were wholly dispoiled of it dimensions it should no more be a body but an incorporeall substance of like nature as the Angels spirits And although God by his power can seperate the dimensioÌ„s of a substance without corrupting it yet can it not be that they be seperated froÌ„ a body without the corruptioÌ„ of the same Because the quantitie dimensions are accidents of the substance but not of the body which cannot subsist without them in as much as they be of it proper essence Whereas the Doctors say afterwards in their obiection that the waight in a body is a thing essentiall The Ministers do deny it And the reason is that were it of the essence of a bodie and the same wanting the bodie should cease to bee Neuerthelesse we see that the glorified bodie of Iesus Christ wherevnto the bodies of all the elect shall be like after the resurrection doth not leaue to be subsist although it be now exempted from all waight And as touching their alledged very strong and mightie argument That if two bodies may be in one selfe place togither one body at one instant may be also in diuers places The Ministers not graunting the antecedent vnder correction say that the consequence is not good and that the argument is very weake Adding therto that the Doctors haue nor prooued and neuer can prooue by the scriptures nor by any authoritie of the auncient Fathers nor by any sufficient reason that which they propose in their antecedent or the consequent which they inferre thereof to be true Wheras the Doctors to proue that two bodies may be together in one selfe place alledge out of the scripture that Iesus Christ entred into the house where his Disciples were the doores being shut The Ministers do answere that it is not written that he entred through the closed doores but only the doores being shut which the auncient Interpreter hath well giuen to vnderstand expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn where mention is made of that aboue said Cuum fores essent clausae Then when the doores were shut Iesus came c. Neuertheles the Ministers say they verily belieue and are assured of that which the scripture doth clearly say to wit that the doores being shut he came and stood in the midst of his Disciples But they cannot certainly define nor determine which way he entered whether it were through the walles or doores of wood which Hillary himselfe maketh doubt of in that place of his writings alledged by the Doctors Howsoeuer it be the Ministers do say that in entering he miraculously made way And that a body be it the wood or wall did yeeld and giue place to the body of Iesus Christ entering or that an opening was made vnto him by the Angell which opened and afterward shut againe the doores in a moment as before hath bâ—ne said And that howsoeuer it was done two bodies were neuer found in one selfe same place together Touching that they alledge out of S. Augustine in his booke de agone Christiano that Iesus Christ entered through the doores The Ministers deny not that he entred through the doores but that two bodies onely were neuer in one selfe same place together But if Iesus Christ entered through the doores that the doores at his entire gaue him place as is said For that which the Doctors alledge touching the Apostles suspition that it was a vaine vision it nought appertaineth to the present matter nor that also that they maruelled at the maner of his entry which was miraculous as they euer confessed And touching that which they adde afterwards in the opinion held by the olde heretiques of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it was not a true bodie because it did things aboue nature The Ministers doo shewe them that they litle think what occasion and foundation of their errour the auncient Fathers had presented vnto them had they confessed what the Doctors haue set foorth and doo obstinately defend of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it doth things not only aboue nature but also contrary to nature yea euen contrary to the will and ordinance of God And there is no doubt but such an opinion should be a great proofe for Marcion and other heretiques which
are well done and ordained although that the reason and order therein be oftentimes vnknowne to men which Salomon wrote saying God maketh all things good in their season Wherevnto may be also applied that which is read in the booke of Sentences of S. Augustine Sent. 283. and 284. God who is the Creator and conseruer of nature doth nothing in his myracles which are against nature And it followeth not that that which is new to custome is contrary and repugnant to reason c. If the Doctors will know more thereof let them reade the two bookes of Order which this holy man composed and that which he wrote concerning myracles in the fift and sixt Chapter of his third booke of the Trinitie This answere shall serue for confutation of two other pretended blasphemies which follow in the obiection of the Doctors Concerning the fourth the Ministers for answer say that the will of God after the doctrine of Diuines may in two sorts be cōsidered to wit according to that which by words signes and effects is declared to men and according to that which is reteined hidden in himselfe The one is called the will knowne by signes and the other the will of the good pleasure of God For the first consideration the Ministers do confesse as heeretofore they haue to the Doctors that God can do many things which he will not do But as touching the other they say that it is equall to his power as is also his power in this respect equall to his will According to which consideration the sentence of Tertullian alledged by the Ministers and to the Monarchians ill applied by the Doctors ought to be vnderstood and expounded As all those may iudge which attentiuely shall read the passage by the Ministers produced Who to answer one slaunder of the said Doctors which accuse them to haue wronged the auncient Fathers in saying that they excepted some causes of the omnipotencie of Cod are yet constrained here to repeate that which Theodoret saith thereof in the 3. Dialogues who writeth as followeth It must not be said without any determination that all things are possible to God For who so absolutely saith this comprehendeth all things as well good as bad which no way ought to be attributed to God whereby it appeareth that this good author and the other before alledged by the Ministers haue not indifferently submitted all things to the power of God but excepted from the same whatsoeuer is contrary to his will and essence To be briefe but one meane there is to appease the difference between the Ministers who say that it is impossible for one body to be in diuers places at one instant and the Doctors which affirme the cōtrary to wit that the Doctors without taking so long circuit loosing so many words and alledging so many superfluous things do proue briefly by one only passage of scripture that God willeth the same Whether the Ministers haue well or euilly alledged Saint Augustine to proue that a body cannot be without place and measures and also whether they haue well or euilly said and defended that quantitie is essentiall to a body and not accidentall as hold the Doctors they leaue the iudgement to the Readers of the Actes of this Conference Touching that which followeth in the writing of the Doctors to wit that there is no place aboue the heauens that Iesus Christ is not therein comprised nor conteined that bodies and spirites bee indifferently there without any distinction or distance of place the Ministers say that touching all these points they rather beleeue the scripture and expresse word of God by them alledged then all the subtilties sophistries of vaine Philosophie which the Doctors or others can propose Ioyned herevnto that it is expresly cōteined taught in one of the articles of our faith where it is said Frō whence he shall come to iudge the quick the dead Wherevpon must bee noted that there is Vnde an Aduerbe signifying place As touching the 4. and 5. articles to know whether the Ministers haue ought imposed vpon the Doctors which is not true they send backe the readers to the precedent conference And also to know in what sence and to what end the auncient Fathers haue bene alledged by the said Ministers which they may easily perceiue by the reading and diligent obseruation of the passages and sentences of the said Fathers there inserted For the 6. article wherein the Doctors had rather confesse their Canons to be false then accusing their authoritie to auouch that the body of Iesus Christ is a true dody and that to be such it ought necessarily to bee in one certaine place the Ministers answere that by the obseruation of the place of S. Augustine whence the said Canon is taken it is easie to iudge that the word Oportet is there much more conuenient then that of Potest To the 8. article the Ministers answere that a substance is not without quantitie and whiles it is such and so remaineth it cannot any waies be a body And the reason is because that of the substance and that of the quantitie are two diuers predicaments vnder which one selfe-same thing for one selfesame respect cannot be any way comprised Moreouer Iesus Christ alledged no other reason to shewe that his body was not a spirit but that hee had members and parts which in respect of their measures might bee handled and touched Whence it followeth that without this a substance cannot be a body And as touching the difference which by the Doctors opinion should remaine betweene our soules and our bodies exempted from quantitie if that were possible the Ministers say that although they were substances both in number and different they should neuerthelesse be like as touching the kinde and that the one and the other should be contained vnder the kinde of an incorporeall substance The Ministers passe ouer the 9. article because it is but a repetition and that they haue largely answered what the Doctors there repeate To the 10. article the Ministers answere that the consequence whereof is the question cannot bee otherwise defended by the Doctors but by the rule which saith that of one absurditie may all things be inferred Moreouer they complaine of time which the Doctors make them loose by reading so many things wherevnto they haue alreadie answered and which it seemeth they repeate not for any other ende then to fill vp paper and to make men thinke they say something For first the Euangelist saith not as the Doctors pretend that Iesus Christ entered by the shut doores but onely that he came the gates beeing shut So that he speaketh nothing there of the maner of his entry nor how the doores were opened or other place about the house by the which he entered And all that which the Doctors say cannot be grounded neither vpon the scripture nor vpon any authoritie of all the auncient Fathers by them alledged which bee more against them then with
them And for conclusiō they haue no other foundation of their saying then their owne coniectures and imaginations and the false interpretations which they giue to the writings of the Fathers To the faith wherof they would gladly constraine subiect the Church to the end that hauing laid that foundation they might afterwards build therevpon all the absurdities and errors they shall delight in touching the same And where they presuppose when Christ entered the shut doores walked vpon the waters and went out of the Sepulchre that such myracles were done rather in the person then in the other things Iustine writeth the contrarie saying that without any change happened either in his body or in that of S. Peter he made by his diuine power the Sea against nature to serue him to walke As also S. Hillary to the same purpose saith That by his power hee made all things passeable Wherevnto likewise agreeth S. Iohn Chrisostome attributing all that to diuine power and freely confessing that hee knew not the maner and the fashion thereof By meanes whereof the Ministers are much abashed that the Doctors are so presumptuous to determine a thing which by the scripture and Fathers hath bene left vndecided and wherein as S. Hillary saith wisely sence and words do faile the truth of the deed exceedeth the capacitie of humane reason How dare then the Doctors so boldly say that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores that there was penitration of dimensions that two bodies were in one selfe-same place Seeing that of all that neither in the scripture nor in the auncient Fathers there is not one onely sillable and that as is said the Fathers do confesse that their vnderstanding and sence were too feeble to comprehend or declare the reason of such a my sterie As touching the birth of Iesus Christ the Ministers repose themselues vpon the scripture which saith clearly that the Virgin was with childe that she brought forth that shee gaue sucke and that Apertaest vulua the wombe is opened in the child-birth They adde that the same doth nought derogate nor preiudice her virginitie and purenesse which consisteth in this point onely that shee knew not not was knowne of any man Moreouer they say that in beleeuing the same they follow the scripture and consequently they cannot erre nor bee heretikes nor they likewise which subiect and subdue their sence to the word of God as in this haue done the Fathers which are by them alledged In the following article proposed by the Doctors touching the manner of the resurrection of Iesus Christ there is nothing but coniectures slaunders repetitions troublesome and superfluous which the Ministers by their former answeres haue largely satisfied All that which afterwards followeth in the writings of the Doctors are but iniuries and scoffes in stead of reasons and arguments which is the last recourse of contentious spirits who seeing themselues destitute of reason and vnable to giue place to the truth defend themselues by clamours and slaunders Some reason should the Doctors haue for that which they say concerning the word Aphantos if there followed Autois but that which the Euangelist saith Ap'auton sheweth clearely that the interpretation of the said place and vnderstanding of S. Ambrose where vnto the Ministers agree is better then that of the Doctors As touching the opening of the heauens the Ministers answere that vsing the language of the scripture which saith clearely that in the baptisme of Iesus Christ the heauens were clouen asunder and then opned when S. Stephen was stoned they cannot faile And to apply to the ayre the signification of heauen is a humane imagination This also seemeth should diminish the Maiestie of God and of Iesus Christ who is lifted vp aboue all the heauens to establish so lowe as the ayre the Throne of his Maiestie And there is no likelyhood in that which the Doctors say touching the being of two bodies in one selfe-same place and that which the Ministers say of the sight of Stephen which extended euen to the heauens for as much as the one is a myracle of the power of God in nature and the other a wonder against nature and the will of God The Doctors in the article following do falsly impute to the Ministers that they affirmed it was a thing impossible for God to make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle for they neuer touched this point in theyr former answeres but that part of the sentence onely where it is spoken of rich men Now to answere too and resolue their obiections the Ministers say that euen as God can saue a rich man by chaunging him and emptying his heart of so much vaine trust and presumption as is therein and whereof beeing grosse and filled hee is vncapeable to enter into the Kingdome of heauen so to him it is also easie to make a Camell passe through the eye of a needle hauing circumcised and pared off the grossenesse thereof and other things which might hinder the same to passe ****** First that the Supper which is celebrated in the reformed Church is the true institution and ordinance of the sonne of God Afterwards that the end for which it was instituted is to assure the faithfull of the true participation which they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for their saluation and in his bloud shead for the remission of their sinnes and for the confirmation of the new couenant which God hath made with his people Thirdly they say that it is necessarie that the bread and wine abide in their proper substance and that after consecration otherwise they cannot be Sacraments of the body and bloud of Christ Lastly the Ministers say that the vnbeleeuers presenting themselues at the Supper by meanes of their vnbeliefe can there no other thing receiue then the outward signes of bread and wine and that to their iudgement and condemnation The Ministers on the other side propose vnto them touching the Masse that such as it is and now celebrated in the Romance Church it is nothing but a humane inuention and tradition Also that it is a corruption and prophanation as well of the holy Supper of our Lord Iesus Christ as of the true and lawfull vse thereof Also that it is an abuse of the Priesthood of Popish Priests and that there is no other Priesthood in the new Testament ordained to get and obtaine remission of sinnes nor also to make intercession and by prayers and merits to obtaine the fauour of God then the onely Priesthood of Iesus Christ They say moreouer that it is a blasphemie and sacriledge but of the sacrifice of the Romish Priests and that there is no other oblation then that which Iesus Christ once made with his body vpon the Crosse by which the wrath of God could be appeased his iustice satisfied sinners reconciled to God sinnes pardoned and the hand-writing of eternall death cancelled and abolished Also they say that the seperation of
maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth or which shall resist the same Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ and passion of the Crosse in proper termes haue they written that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death and by the sheading of his whole bloud he had nought done nor profited for our redemption if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule the paines of the damned before his death and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell The Ministers do also instruct their adherents that murther adultery robbery theft and euery crime whatsoeuer is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate who is neuer say they out of the fauour of God what thing soeuer he commit and do assure their faithfull and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly that they are in grace and predestinate which is in plaine termes albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse thē to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse and other articles which the Doctors will verifie where the matter shall require the same If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings and published in their Sect the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin wil testifie the same To be briefe behold the glory of God and of his sonne Iesus Christ wherevnto tend the Ministers by the rooting out of the pretended impieties mentioned in many articles of their last resolution For briefe answere wherevnto the Doctors doo say that some things by slaunder of the Ministers are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church that others are expressed in the holy scripture and others drawne from the same and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie but if to make their doctrine confused they persist to mingle all together the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere Moreouer the Ministers in generall doo rightly attribute to the power of God and say well that the certaine knowledge thereof is to be taken by the scriptures which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors Very well say they also that it is infinite and incomprehensible But when they come to particularities and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth then forget they holy scriptures and without them do measure the same according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God according to the order established in the world and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit they tie it to the conditiō proprietie natural order of creatures As though to make something against or aboue the order condition natural proprietie of the creatures were a thing repugnant to the wisedome nature and wil of God Behold the short resolutiō which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion touching the omnipotencie of God which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors And as touching S. Augustine which they produce for them he hath bene answered heretofore The Doctors refer them to their writings cōcerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax thē to hold as a sufficient argument to infer some matter to be done of God to shewe that he hath power to do it The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature Who haue onely said that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith founded vpon the word commeth from the consideration of naturall things against the power of God Concerning Abrahā the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth that he his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God And cōsidered Corpus suū emortuū mortuā vuluā Sarae His owne dead body the dead wombe of Sarah vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotēcie And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham from his first vocation vntil after such assurance without putting distinction in the Historie of that which was before or after such assurance as is that which the Apostle saith that he cōsidered not Corpus suū emortuū his owne dead body but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse of the promise made vnto him The Doctors say they haue better concluded according to the faith we ought to haue of the power of God to make one bodie in diuers places then the Ministers haue done which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpō to beleeue that God could not do it or that it repugneth the wisedome prouidence and eternall vertue or the humanitie of Iesus Christ yea the nature of a simple bodie only But concerning all that the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption and particular reuelation without one onely passage of scripture wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion Contrariwise haue the Doctors founded their faith not on the power of God onely to make one body in diuers places but to beleeue the deed and that God hath so willed on the holy scripture as in theyr Resolution is contained with the passages of auncient Fathers which they to this end haue alledged Which are so plaine that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same And their starting holes shall be cōuinced by the simple reading of the bookes For all the rest of the Ministers resolution where are mightie iniuries Impostures and slanders against the Doctors they answere nothing hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing And the Doctors also do well vnderstand that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers who more esteem their owne particular reuelation for their whole instruction then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall and all Christians together And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them as people voyd of sound sence and without iudgement which thing they declare by theyr maner of dealing An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is which the Ministers haue done in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter For it shall be proued as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter and then at more leisure to put it in writing which the Ministers haue refused as also by the first obiections which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie wherby they touched the foundations vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against
such a case is first to regard the ende wherevnto a doctrine tendeth which shall be declared vnto vs or a booke that shall be presented vnto vs For if it tend to establish and aduance the glory of God it is true as Iesus Christ saieth in S. Iohn That he which seeketh the glory of God is truth and there is no vnrighteousnesse in him Afterwards we must consider whether being reduced to the proportion and the analogie of faith as saith S. Paul it well agreeth and accordeth with the principles and foundations of Religion Obiection All say and may say as much thereof and therefore this reason is no sufficient argument as I conceiue by effect and other proofes how I ought to stay my selfe thereupon Moreouer this answer passeth the limits of the proposition For it presupposeth the Scripture to be the knowne foundation of Religion And the proposition was to know the reason which should assure me that the Scripture was of God and that it behooueth to distinguish betweene the Bookes thereof Answere It is easie to iudge if the end of the doctrine proposed tendeth to establish and aduance the honour and glorie of God As if men were exhorted thereby to withdraw wholly their trust from creatures wholly to settle and repose themselues in God to resort to him in all their necessities and to depend vpon his prouidence in all their affaires to praise and thanke him for all the goodnes they haue This presupposed no man could doubt that the doctrine which tendeth to such an end should not be good and receiuable And to that which hath bene proposed that the former Answere was out of the limits of the first proposition it seemeth not for that the first thing proposed was What is the foundation of our Religion Wherunto it was answered That it is the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Obiection This answer is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptists yea also to the Deistes which say more then all others that they seeke the glorie of God and all that which in the answere is written And generally each man that should vse the like saying should not cease to erre in all the Articles of the Creed the first excepted But to returne to the point without so much wandering it seemeth to vs not lawfull to vse the foundation of the Scripture before it bee notorious and certaine that it is the holy Scripture and that there is difference amongst the bookes thereof And before it bee known that I haue particular inspiration of the holy Ghost and that such a particular inspiration of the holy Ghost be a sufficient foundation of Religion Answere The Deistes and other hereâ—iques cannot bee holpen by the foresayd answere for confirmation of their errors Forasmuch as the Desties denying Jesus Christ cannot glorifie God seeing that to glorifie the Father it behooueth first to know and to glorifie the Sonne no more also other heretiques For that not knowing the trueth nor consequently Iesus Christ which is the way the life and the trueth they cannot know nor glorifie God And touching that obiected that the answere was from the purpose that may be iudged by the conference of the demand and answere And for the latter point of the obiection wherein it is sayde that the reuelation which each particular man sayth hee hath of the Spirite of God is to him the foundation of Religion that was not answered But that the foundation of all true Religion is the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles Of the trueth of which all the Church in generall and the members thereof in particular are assured by the witnesâ—e and inward reuelation of the Spirit of God Obiection Then it behooued to adde whatsoeuer is heere sayde to the other answere before it were good and it seemeth that the answere doeth containe as it were a mockerie For it is certaine that when all trueth is in the doctrine of a man that man is no more euill nor an heretique But wee search out the beginning of trueth what it shou'd bee And touching the reply which denieth that the particular reuelation is the foundation of Religion There is no great difference For if the particular reuelation bee a sufficient foundation for euery one to know what is of the Apostles and Prophets that particular reuelation by consequence is the foundation of Religion For that is the foundation of knowledge whereupon euery particular man knoweth and sayeth his Religion is founded Answere The answeres haue bene made according as the demaundes haue beene propounded and it will not appeare by the reading of them that they are willing to mocke For in such a Conference as this where the matter is to seeke out the honour and glory of God Mockerie should bee ioyned with impietie And as touching reuelation that it is equall to the Scripture which is the foundation of Religon wee denie it and say they bee things different although they be conioyned together and that they doo follow the one the other euen as appeareth by that which is written in Esay Behold my couenant with them sayth the Lord my Spirit that is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede And that which followeth From whence a man may iudge the distinction which the Prophet putteth between the reuelation of the holy Ghost and the word Obiection For conclusion of this Conference I leaue each man to iudge of the agreement of the answerers and obiections And for that which is alledged of the vnion of the word and of the holy Ghost out of the text of Esay they are things from the purpose and new matter And we must not compare the reuelation of euery particular person whereof was the question vnto that of the Prophet Esay who had other proofes that the Spiâ—â—t spake by him and had oft times made demonstration thereof And of all that aboue said I leaue the iudgement to euery Christian Answere We leaue also the iudgement of what hath beene spoken of the one part and the other to the hearers and readers And for the passage of Esay produced the question is not of the reuelation of the Prophet nor of the spirit communicated vnto him but of the spirit and the words which God promised to all his people with whom he made his couenant And as touching the other pretended proofes which the Prophet had of his vocation we make no doubt thereof But we say that the principall and most assured was that which he had by the testimony of God his Spirit as appeareth by the sixt Chapter of his Prophecie Obiection Be it so that by the person of Esay be spake to his people it followeth not that he spake not to Esay first And I allow that he promised indeed his spirit to his people that is to say to his Church vniuersal Not that he wil that euery one yea being in this Church
betweene the true reuelations of the Lord and the Word which proceeding from him is as true as the reuelation And the reuelation reciprocally as true as the Word Yet doth it not therefore follow that the word and the reuelations of the spirit of the Lord by the which we may be conducted to the vnderstanding of the word are not things different and that the one doth not go before the other And where the said Vigor prayeth the said De Spina to hasten to the point he answereth That he cannot else where ground his answeres then vpon the demaundes which be made vnto him Reply Whereunto the said Vigor replyed that hee referred himselfe touching the sence to that which is touched in the answere of the said De Spina And where he saith that the word goeth before the reuelation that is of no value to make difference vpon the question proposed And to come to the point the said Vigor demaundeth whether a man may be assured that he hath reuelation from the Lord that a booke is a booke of the holy Scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inward inspiration Also how he can assure any of this inspiration giuen him of the Lord Answere Touching the first Article of the last demaund It is not a thing impertinent to distinguish the scripture from the interpretation thereof inaâ—much as they bee things diuers and diuers gifts of the Lord. And to answer to the question proposed how a particular man before the reuelation and inward testimonie of the spirit of God in his heart may acknowledge that it is Canonicall The spirit of God varieth not from himselfe And abiding in one particular man he wil acknowledge the Scripture which is come from him and beareth his markes And for answere to the second demand hee also saith that the selfe same spirit beeing likewise in a third person will acknowledge both that the word and the reuelation are of him for the reasons alledged That is to say that the spirit of God in diuers persons is alwayes equall and like vnto himselfe Obiection This is no full satisfaction to the first question proposed by the which it was demaunded how some man may iudge in himselfe that hee hath the holy Ghost to discerne one Booke to be the holy Scripture and another not but Apocrypha and how he may declare vnto another that he hath his inspiration from God Answere The spirit of God is called a seale in the scripture therefore is it that the first effect which it produceth in the heart of him vnto whom it is communicated is to assure him of his presence As for assuring a secoÌ„d person of the reuelation that one hath receiued of the spirit of God it is easie Forasmuch as the spirit of God which openeth the mouth of the one to speake doth also open the eares of the other to listen to his word and the heart to beleeue it to be perswaded thereof So that betweene the maister and the scholler between the teacher and the hearer when they be both furnished and enlightened by the Spirit of God there is alwayes one mutuall consent to acknowledge one another Obiection Such certaintie is a great incertaintie And there is not any of what sect soeuer which doeth not assure himselfe to haue the holy Ghost and the trueth on his side which is a foolish presumption How can a man distinguish a presumption from a true inspiration Answere S. Iohn Chrisostome saith that in vaine a man boasteth of the spirit without the word which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge of all things which heretiques others would propose vnder the authoritie tytle of the Spirit of God For as by the spirit we know the true sence of the word so do we also mutually acknowledge by the word who those be which haue the spirit of God or no. Obiection This is no answere to the question For the question is not to examine the doctrine by the word but the question is to know whether it be the word of God by which a man will examine and approoue a doctrine And how a man shall iudge assuredly that hee hath a reuelation of the Lord that that is the word of God Answere If he be faithfull therefore shall he iudge by the Spirit of God which is in him as in him which telleth the same vnto him And if he be vnfaithfull as impossible it is that he should iudge thereof as it is to a blinde man to iudge and discerne of colours presented vnto him Forasmuch saieth S. Paul as the Spirit of God is he by whom wee know and iudge the things that are of God Obiection Yet is not this an answere to the question proposed let the iudgement thereof be left to the readers and hearers Now make they another demaund that is to say Whether we be not very certaine by the word of God that the Lord doeth assist his Church and will assist it vnto the end of the world And whether it be not a more assured thing to stay on the consent and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture the distinction of them from the Apocrypha then to leane vpon his owne iudgement esteeming it to bee an inward inspiration whereof a man can make no proofe but supposeth that he hath the holy Ghost Answere The Doctors doo confound the opinions which fantasticke men may haue with the witnesses and reuelations of the holy Ghost although betweene those two there is as much distance as is from heauen to earth And as touching the consent of the Church suppose that it proceedeth from the spirit of God Infallable it is also certaine that particular reuelations may be as of Esay and other Prophets And forasmuch as the one and the other do proceed from one selfe same Authour which is the Spirit of trueth The certaintie of the reuelations of God his Spirit made vnto all the Church in generall and to euery member of it in particular is of one selfe same moment Obiection The Minsters cannot shew to the Catholiques nor to any others that they are not fantasticall for asmuch as they make no proofe more then do other sects of the reuelation of the holy Ghost made vnto them and as touching that is said suppose that it proceedeth froÌ„ the Spirit of God They doubt it seemeth of the assistance of the holy Ghost in the Church of God which saith S. Paul is Columna firmameÌ„tuÌ„ veritatis the pillar ground of truth And a thing it is to be wel considered that they are more certain of the assistaÌ„ce of the Lord in one particular person then in the Church vniuersal And where they say that to know the truth the holy Spirit assisteth as well euery member of the Church as the whole church By that might a man conclude that the particular faithful could neuer erre that the
particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth as the vniuersal church Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō of like waight with the iudgement of the church they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith where it is thus written We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall and very certaine rules of our faith not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost which maketh vs to discerne them frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes By the said article men may see how much more they attribute to themselues then to all the vniuersall church Which article they now contradict attributing as much to the one as to the other And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed the said article hath been taken away as is seene by that which De Spina hath now brought hither imprinted at Geneua 1564. Whereby it appeareth that they be retracted as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt Which thing is very reasonable seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall not to euery particular person Answere If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke although they haue the word of God more shall the Doctors bee holden for such in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God Touching the second point where the Doctors reproach the Ministers that they doo doubt as it seemeth by their answere of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church The answer is that that is not the doubt but to know which is the true Church And touching the third point whereof say the Doctors might bee inferred that particular persons could not erre The consequence is naught for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons and in this case they may faile and erre as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him To the fourth point the Ministers do answere that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession for that comparison is made in the answere of two reuelations of the holy Ghost the one made to the bodie and the other to the members which they maintaine to bee of like waight touching the certaintie thereof And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite which is the cause of the Churches consent which doth follow as the effect thereof Now so it is that the cause being preferred before his effect there is great reason that the reuelation of God his spirit compared with the consent of his Church be preferred vnto it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions printed at diuers times and by diuers Printers they shall bee answered when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly Obiection Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons Of whom likewise it may bee doubted whether they bee members of the Church For the other point where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession it seemeth in shew that there is contradiction for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō with the consent of the church as by their answere appeareth Also that which is alledged that reuelation is cause of consent to preferre it to that as the cause to the effect seemeth to serue to small purpose for it is as if one shuld say that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God and the holy scripture For very certaine it is that reuelation goeth before the word and scripture And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession as euery one may easily iudge the authors thereof speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit then that which is of the iudgement of the Church And touching an other point where it is said that particular persons may sometimes faile when the holy Ghost doth leaue them By that wee may conclude that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons because we may doubt of them whether they be destitute of God his spirit or no which cannot be done of the Church Wherefore more sure it is to stay vpon the Church infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost then vpon priuate pretended inspirations And so do the Catholikes therein neuer following their priuate iudgement and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke But rather those which preferre their proper iudgement which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration The Doctors require one text of the scripture by the which the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular as it is to the Church vniuersall to know and iudge and discerne which are the scriptures Answere Touching the first point As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so So do they not also approue them all faithful who boast themselues to be so For the second point the comparison of the Doctors is not proper which thus they haue made as who should say that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God c. Forasmuch as the word of God all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other then is betweene Genus and Species And touching that which is added in this article that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings for the vnderstanding of them Touching the first we confesse they goe before the Scripture And touching the second wee say that they follow the same For the third article the Ministers doo answere that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person or whether it bee withdrawne by the things which he proposeth when they bee reduced to the word of God and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde Touching the demand it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen to know and discerne the things which bee of God And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull as water vpon the earth And in Ioel likewise the second and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn
2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
first instructed concerning the Masse The Doctors say that the Ministers by word of mouth haue instructed the said Lady not onely in the error which concerneth their Supper but also in many others as they will make it appeare when they shall handle the articles of the Confession by them exhibited Then willing to instruct the Lady by order in the Catholique Religion they purpose to follow the order held by the Fathers of the Church that is to say to shew vnto her how many errors against the Articles of the faith are contained in the Catechisme of their Ghurch although they shew to them of their religion that they differ in these articles nothing from the Catholiques And because to catechise and instruct one it behooueth to beginne at the foundation and that of certaine articles of the Creed in which the Ministers their like do erre dependeth the beginning of the proofe of the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar they will holde the order which all good teachers or instructors doo keepe in all discipline and the Ministers themselues do obserue following in their Catechisme this method And rightly were the Doctors to bee mocked whom men doo take for instructors if they should beginne for the Ministers pleasure to instruct one in that point wherein they ought to ende as endeth the same Catechisme of the Ministers vpon the matter of the Supper Moreouer seeing the Ministers are content as they say that all the articles of their confession bee examined no priuiledge haue they but that one begin at the first for as much as all order so requireth and it is alwayes at the choice of the Apponent to propound in such order as seemeth best to him the questions for the Dispute were there any And for as much as they are bound to giue a reason of their faith as often as they be therof required expedient it were for the good of the Lady for the instruction of those that shall read the Conference to follow this method And if they refuse what the Doctors doo offer they cannot auoyd it but all the world will iudge by the eye that distrusting their owne doctrine which they dare not vphold they confound the Conference Whereas they require that the Doctors in the Conference put foorth but one reason at once wherevnto they may answere without confusion or else that in one day the Doctors put forth all their reasons and on an other day the Ministers may come to answere The Doctors do say that the first offer is reasonable and to auoyd length of speech they accept it but they neuer heard say that the second maner hath bene practised and no need it were to assemble together in one place for that purpose but to send their writings the one to the other Answere Touching the exhibiting of the confession and the offers which the Doctors pretend to haue beene made by the Ministers the Ministers do report themselues to the Registers And do adde moreouer that it appeareth by the Doctors last proposition that it is not vpon the confession which the Doctors say was exhibited vnto them but vpon the Catechisme that they will ground their Dispute For conclusion the Miuisters do eftsoones protest as abouesaid that men may know who they be that doo flye the Lists and require that henceforth the order of arguing and answering may be by course betweene them and the Doctors For as much as it behoueth that things be equall and that it is reasonable that the Doctors as well do render a reason of their faith as the Ministers Reply The Doctors do referre them to what hath bene put in writing in the two first Conferences where speech was alwaies of examining the articles of their confession without making any mention of the Masse And where they say that it seemeth the Doctors would examine the Catechisme and not the articles of the confession the Doctors are content to examine the said articles by conferring them with the Catechisme This considered that these two ought to agree together they make all men iudges that shal read these writings in whom is the let that they begin not the Conference And for the order which the Ministers will now change a new fashion it is and also a new trouble cōsidering that hitherto they haue holden the place of respondent and haue presented to be examined the articles of their confession As for the Doctors they haue bene alwaies arguers and haue not for their part proposed ought to be examined Neuerthelesse they are contented after examination of the said confession that the Ministers doo propound the difficulties they shall haue against the Catholike doctrine wherevnto by the grace of God the Doctors will answere Demaund Whether the Ministers do beleeue the Creed called the Apostles to haue bene made by the Apostles and whether they do beleeue all that is contained therein Answere It is a thing in difference whether the Apostles being together themselues did write it each one of them bringing his sentence as some do hold or whether it hath bene gathered out of diuers places of their writings But so it is that in the reformed Church men beleeue euery point to bee drawne from the pure Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine contained in their writings as if one should say that it is a Summarie of the doctrine which the Apostles haue preached because it beareth and containeth the same Question Leauing to auoyd tediousnesse whether it bee a thing indifferent for a Christian to beleeue that a doctrine hath bene written by the Apostles or no if it be conformable to that which shal be found in holy writ they demaund whether all doctrine conformable to the said Letters may take indifferently the title of the Apostles or other authors of the scripture Answere No man can faile to call it Apostolike doctrine but in naming it Apostolike writing one might giue to vnderstand that it was written by their owne hands or spoken by them But howsoeuer it be where we shall acknowledge any doctrine to sauour of the spirit wherwith the holy men of God haue bin moued that call we Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine Obiection The demaund was not whether the doctrine be Apostolike for any such conformitie but whether for this reason it may be attributed to the Apostles and of like authoritie as the Scriptures vnto which it is conformable forasmuch as it proceedeth from one selfe same spirit as is sayd in the answere Answere The Answere thereto is made to wit that such a writing doth containe Apostolique doctrine and in some sence it may be said to be the Apostles Obiection The Answere vnder correction nought pertaineth to the question For it is not demaunded whether men may esteeme it Apostolique in respect of the conformitie but whether for this conformitie men may attribute it to the Apostles and giue vnto it the tytle and name of the Apostles and whether for the said conformitie
because men do alledge propose many things to the contrary To the end therefore that God and his Angels bee maintained true in their words it must not be doubted but God can much more easily change and alter his creatures and all their qualities then a Potter can play with his clay and forme at his pleasure some vessell thereof Moreouer there is daunger that if we limit Gods power towards his creatures wee fall to denie him his Lordship and dominion ouer them For no other thing is it to be Lord of a creature then to haue power to change alter and giue it such a nature and qualitie best pleasing to him as hauing the same in his owne power And therefore God in Ieremy to shewe that hee had power to destroy and ruinate or to maintaine Ierusalem as seemed him good saith I am the Lord of all flesh is there any thing too hard for me Therefore the Doctors do conclude that there is daunger if this question bee maintained as impossible to God that each one therein will dare as much alledging the same examples which the Ministers do to exempt from the power of God euery thing shall displease him And when men shall produce vnto him such things out of the scripture he may interpret the scripture in an other sence saying that such a thing shall be impossible to God by the naturall sence of the words of the scripture Euen as the Ministers doo change and alter the scripture which saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places To wit the word of the Supper compared with that of the Ascention and say that that of the Supper ought not to bee vnderstood litterally for that one body should be in two places is impossible to God So say the Doctors that each one wil corrupt the litterall sence of the scriptures saying that the thing is impossible vnto God And therefore must the scriptures be otherwise vnderstood And notwithstanding it may bee because it displeaseth him and yet will hee bring forth the selfe-same reasons and allegations as do the Ministers to shewe that all things are not possible to God The Doctors do againe conclude that it is better to maintaine the scripture in the truth thereof albeit it propose in our iudgements incomprehensible and impossible things then to open a gap for euery one to depraue the word of God to raunge and subiect it to his will and iudgement vnder shadow of saying that it is impossible to God and alledging for the same some examples They will not omit that the Ministers who haue often protested to relye vpon the pure word of God do alledge only auncient Doctors against the power of God flying for aide to them against Gods expresse word which importeth that generally without exception there is nothing impossible to him Answere The Minister answere that the Doctors proue not their consequence and that they leaue it for some distrust they haue as is likely that they are not able to proue it They mentiō but the antecedent of their said consequence to the confession whereof it is not possible for them to lead the Ministers by their reasons and authorities alledged to weaken their said consequence for as much as of one particular they inferre a generall which is contrary to the rules of Logicke And where they say that the authorities alledged by the Ministers nothing serue to reproue their consequence and to shew that God leaueth not to be almightie although he cannot do any thing which doth derogate to his nature they referre themserues therein to the said auncient authors which for the same end and reasons as the Ministers doo alledge and propose the aboue said exceptions Where they pretend that the authorities and sentences alledged out of the auncient Fathers do nought appertaine to the present question for as much as they denie that they should be vnderstood of other things but those only which do containe in themselues contradiction The Ministers do answere that so also doth that which they propose of a body that at on selfe instant it may be in diuers places For as much is it as if they should say that a body is and is not at one selfe-same time and that a body is one and is not one Also that a creature is incircumscriptible and not inclosed within certaine limits which happening it should no more be a creature but God As may bee gathered of that which S. Basil writeth in his booke of the holy Ghost Chapter 22. saying thus The Angell that appeared to Cornelius was not in the same place where Phillip was And he that spake to Zacharie from the Aultar filled not whiles hee spake vnto him his seate and place in heauen But the holy Ghost is in Habacuck and Daniel in Babylon and in Ezeehiel vpon the floud of Chobar for the spirit of God doth fill the earth And the Prophet writing thereof saith Where shall I hide me from thy spirit or whither shall I flye from thy presence Didymus in his booke of the holy Ghost confirming that aboue said saith thus Were the spirit of God a creature his substance should he haue circumscript and limitted as haue all things made and created As then so it is that the spirit of God doth fill the world and is not circumscript nor in any place limitted therof it followeth that he is God Vigilius in the disputation hee wrote betweene Sabellius Photius Arrius and Athanasius vnder the person of Athanasius thus writeth Thereby may it chiefly appeare that the spirit of God is God that he is euerie where and is not contained in any one place as the Prophet writeth Whither shall I flye to hide me from thy spirit Of these places may we conclude that if a body bee not circumscript finished and closed in certaine limits it is not a creature which ought to bee vnderstood not onely of other bodies but of that also of Iesus Christ himselfe as appeareth by that which Theodoret writeth in his second Dialogue where hee thus saith Then is the body of our Lord risen exempted from all corruption impassible and immortall adorned with diuine glory adored and worshipped of the heauenly powers Neuerthelesse albeit it be in such sort qualified yet ceaseth it not therefore to be circumscript as it was before it was glorified whereof it followeth that being a true body and a creature it cannot be in diuers places at one instance Whereas they alledge that the foresaid examples do nothing pertaine to the question proposed for as much as in it the question is onely to know whether God can chaunge the qualities in a substance the substance remaining The Ministers do denie it because in the question there is mentiō of a body which cannot be without hs measure Now the measures and demensions are not as qualities and accidents which may happen to a body and depart from it without corrupting thereof which is the nature and condition of accidents but are
there is diuersitie betweene the creatures and Creator and that the Creator by nature is euery where and naturally the creatures be not in diuers places the Doctors reuerently imbrace the authoritie of the holy Fathers But to produce the said places for coÌ„firmation of a thing so well knowne and not doubted of their trauell was now needlesse But the Doctors yet attend one sole place of the scripture or one sole testimony of the auncient Fathers which saith That God cannot make one body to be in diuers places The Doctors pray the Ministers that with like reuerence they receiue the auncient Fathers chiefly touching the interpretation of holy scriptures whose exposition as are the places aboue cyted shal be agreed vpon betweene them and the Ministers Vpon request made to the Lord Neuers on the behalfe of the Ministers that hee would please to assigne a day for answere particularly to all and euery article and slaunders here aboue proposed by the Doctors in their obiection The said Lord ordained that the Ministers should carry with them that euening one of the Copies of the Doctors obiections against them to be ready the next morrow by noone to answer thervnto which the Doctors agreed vnto And made likewise request to the said Lord of Neuers to haue leaue if it so seemed them good to reply to the answers that the Ministers should make And therwith to deliuer their resolution touching this article of the omnipotency of God To th' end to proceed and examine the reall truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar Whervnto the Ministers added that they also for their parts would deliuer a briefe resolution of all that which shall be deduced by them The company assembled on the morrow beeing Wednesday the 17. of Iuly My Lord of Neuers considering that the Doctors the day before had imployed all the time without any left for the Ministers to make present answere to them supposed no lesse time would be needfull for the Ministers to answerefully which had bene a thing tedious and irksome For this cause and others by him declared he ordained they should thenceforth speake by writing And that the Ministers should carry with them the Copie which was giuen them to make answere therevnto and to send it vnto him signed by them and two Notaries Of which he would cause a Copie to be written by his Secretary to giue it to the Doctors reseruing the Originall to himselfe And in like sort would he keepe for the Ministers the Copie of that which the Doctors should send him Wherevnto both parts submitting themselues they disputed afterwards by writing as followeth The Answere of the Ministers to the Obiections of the Doctors giuen on Tuesday the 16. of Iuly 1566. THe Ministers deny that the consequence proposed by the Doctors to wit God cannot make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant Therfore â—e is not omnipotent is necessary For as much as the omnipotency of God ought not to be measured but by the things only which be agreeable to his will and are not derogate either to his nature or to his wisdome or to his truth or to the order he established in the world Vnto which that directly repugneth which the Doctors set forth that one selfe same body at one selfe-same instant may be in diuers places For it would follow that a body should be a body without being limitted And by consequence that it should be and not be altogither For the measures as to be long large thicke and to be bounded limitted with certaine bounds are so essentiall to a body that without that it is no more a body And so farre of is it that the Ministers in so saying do diminish the omnipotency of God that contrariwise they establish the same and will not attribute to him any mutabilitie and chaunge in his counsaile nor any contradiction in his will for feare to make him lye which by the scripture is impossible to him And where the Doctors alledge froÌ„ the Fathers that they haue not denied the omnipotency of God The Ministers haue heretofore shewed that they haue and in what case it may happen Tertullian in his booke written against Praxeas speaking of this matter saith as followeth Surely nothing is hard vnto God But if without iudgemeÌ„t we wil vse this sentence and interpret it according to our foolish fantasie we may faine all things to be of God and say that he hath done them because he can do them Now must it not be beleeued because he can do all things that therfore he hath done what he hath not done but enquired whether he hath done it And finally concludeth that the power of God is his wil and his inhabilitie likewise his vnwillingnesse The Doctors then to shew that he can do it should declare that God hath willed to make a body which at one selfe-same instant hath bin in diuers places And a maruellous thing it is that they impute to the Ministers that they derogate from the omnipotency of God when as they do except froÌ„ the same what is contrary to his wil seeing they themselues do confesse it and except the same things And that there is no other difference between theÌ„ the Ministers but that they say that God maketh one body to be in diuers places at one selfe instaÌ„t because he can do it And the Ministers say that he doth it not and cannot do it because he wil not do it For as much as is said according to Tertullian the power of god is his wil. Touching the reason that the Doctors do alledge in Phisosophie to proue that a bodie for being a bodie doth not therfore leaue to be in diuers places The Ministers say they suppose a falshood To wit that quantitie is accidentall and not essentiall to a body For that to wit that a body is measured bounded and circumscript is in such sort of it essence that without that it is no more a bodie As S. Augustine him selfe speaking of the glorified body of Iesus Christ saith That if space be taken away from a body there is no more place where it might be and by consequence being no part is no more at all The reaso of Philosophie they propose touching the first heauen as that it is not in any place The Ministers do denie it for to speake according to the language of the scripture it must be confessed that there is place eâ—en aboue the heauens As Iesus Christ said vnto his Disciples I go to prepare a place for you And in the same place In my Fathers house there are many mansions And else where Where I am taking the present time for the future there shal my seruants be In the which sentence must be obserued that there be aduerbes of place And S. Augustine writing to Dardanus expresly saith That it behoueth that the body of Iesus Christ be in some place in heaueÌ„ because it is a true
haue denied the true humanitie of Iesus Christ if they should confesse by the Doctors example that the body of Iesus Christ coÌ„trary to the truth nature and essence of a body may be at one self-same time in diuers places or in one selfe same place with an other body To that they alledge of Iustin Martir The Ministers do answer that the booke by them alledged is falsly attributed to him For it there maketh mention of Origen to wit in the the 82. question althogh that Origen was more then 100. yeares after him And touching the opening of the Sepulchre whereof there is mentioÌ„ made in the place by them produced They answer that the Euangelist reciteth clearly that there was a great Earthquake when Iesus Christ rose again and that the Angel did rowle away the stone which closed the Sepulchre Whervnto agreeth the saying of Leo the first Bishop of Rome writing to the Bishops of Palestine where he saith That Iesus Christ rose againe the stone which couered the Sepulchre being rowled away Touching the place alledged by the Doctors out of the writings of S. Hillary one word there is shall serue them for an answer To wit that this holy Doctor expresly saith that Iesus Christ to whoÌ„ all things are open as the Doctors haue expounded the said sentence or as the Ministers expound it that he maketh way euery where by his diuine power entred the doores being shut For thereby also he giueth to vnderstand that to enter into the house where his Disciples were he made himselfe way opening And by his writing can nought else be coÌ„cluded but that his entry was myraculous Concerning that which the Doctors alledge of S. Ambrose vpon S. Luke No more can they inferre thereof then S. Hillary hath said And they cannot conclude neither of the one nor the other but that Iesus Christ entered within the house by a diuine and miraculous power For that which they alledge of S. Iohn Chrisostome touching the virgin that Iesus Christ came forth of her wombe her virginitie integritie no way thereby corrupted nor defiled yea that she did remain a virgin before after her child birth The Ministers do beleeue confesse and teach the same And yeeld a reason thereof by the scripture for as much as she neuer had knowne man But if thence they will infer that in the birth of Iesus Christ Nula intercesserit apertio vteri The wombe was not opened The Ministers do say that such a conclusioÌ„ should be against the expresse text of the scripture and of that said in S. Luke to that purpose Omne masculinum ad aperiens vuluam c. Euery male that first openeth the wombe c. Ioyned therevnto that many auncient authors haue written approued it as Origen vpoÌ„ S. Luke Tertullian de carne Christi S. Ierom in his first Tome Ad EustochiuÌ„ Where in expresse termes he saith that Iesus Christ came bloody forth of the virgins belly S. Ambrose vpon S. Luke Wherby it may appeare that the virgin was truly a virgin and truly a mother To the authoritie which they bring of S. Ierome The Ministers alledge no other thing for answere then that which himselfe hath said To wit That when Iesus Christ came where his Disciples were the creature obeyed his Creator What the Doctors alledge of S. Cyril serueth nothing to the confirmation of their purpose Touching the heresie in Iouinian iustly reproued by Saint Augustine who to auoyd the error of the Manichees fel into an other namely that the virgin in her child-birth remained not a virgin The Ministers say that it was not necessary that Iouinian to auoid the error of the Manichees should cal in doubt the virginitie of Mary forasmuch as the foundioÌ„ of the same virginitie is vpon this that she was neuer knowne of man Touching the conclusion that the Doctors would draw from the authorities aboue said and apply them to their purpose which was that one body may be in two places at one self-same instaÌ„t or that two bodies may be in one self-same place togither The Ministers say that it is altogither impertineÌ„t And that neither by the places they alledged nor any others that they can gather can they any way inferre the same Adding further that it shall neuer be found in any good Author By meanes wherof they coÌ„clude against the Doctors that their foundatioÌ„ is nothing And that they wil falsly authorise their error by the name title of the auncient Fathers for fault of good vnderstanding and taking the terme piercing which some of the auncient Fathers haue vsed and signifieth not a a confusion and mingling togither of diuers bodies occupying one selfe same place but only the yeelding that the one made to giue the other passage As we see and haue experience that the aire giueth place to a man that walketh and birds that flye And the Ministers for conclusion say that that which they maintaine and propose by their answere doth not derogate nor any way diminish the greatnes glory and power of God but doth establish the same and much more aduance it then such prodigious absurdities as those are which the Doctors set foorth and will perswade without any reason or probable meanes woulde doo For they confesse that all whatsoeuer happened both in the entry of Iesus Christ into the house where his disciples were and in his going out as wel of the virgins wombe as of the Sepulchre there was the myraculous diuine power of God But they denie that thereby nothing happened which was impossible and contained any contradiction What they alledge of Caluin Beza are friuolous things and proposed more to slaunder and contradict then to search out and make manifest the truth Where as they say that all antiquitie with one consent do vnderstand by the terme Aphantos ap'autâ—n That Iesus Christ made himselfe invisible to his Disciples abiding in their presence The Ministers for their answer are content to alledge vnto them one onely authoritie of S. Ambrose vpon S. Luke who expounding these words saith That hee retired from them And an other of Nicholas de Lyra which saith vpon this place that it was done by the agilitie of his glorious body which can suddenly vanish away To that they alledge of the piercing the heauens when Iesus Christ ascended thither the Ministers do answer that it is very like they claue a sunder and were opened a when at the Baptisme of our Lord Iesus Christ the Doue descended vpon him And when as also S. Stephen was stoned Touching that which they reproue in the first answere of the Ministers saying that in the 12 chap. of the Acts there is made no mention of the opening of the prison The Ministers do admonish them to read diligently the text of the said place And there they shal find that wheÌ„ they had passed the first 2. watch the vtter gate of the prisoÌ„ which was of IroÌ„ did opeÌ„ of it own accord to
scriptures that the people or other particular persons fell into vnbeliefe or distrust of Gods helpe and succor he shall know that the cause hath ordinarily bene for staying vpon the nature and disposition of humane things without sufficient apprehension of the power of God And contrariwise to confirme them that this power was set before their eyes diuers examples therof haue heretofore bene brought out of Esay and Ieremy In the new Testament the Virgin hauing regard to the naturall maner of conceauing seemed to doubt of the mean of her conception And she said How shall this thing be seeing I know not man And the Angell answering sayd vnto her Nothing shall bee impossible with God Drawing her backe from the cogitations of naturall proprieties which is the roote of Infidelitie and exhorting her to thinke vpon the Almightinesse of God which is the chiefe stone and rocke wherevpon true Religion is builded Which thing considered The Doctors for their resolution of this conference with the Ministers do say that with good right hath the omnipotency of God very expresly obtained the first place among the articles of the Apostles Creed as being that by which all the other articles of faith and the workes of God aboue nature are belieued and maintained against all contradiction and repugnancy of nature or reason which may be pretended or alledged And without the which any article of faith or any the workes of God surpassing nature and contained in the scriptures could not be defended and maintained against the assaults of malice and depriuation of humane spirit which alwayes tendeth to infidelitie and disobedience towards his God and from his byrth is prompt and subtil to depraue and slaunder his word and commandement By meanes whereof say the Doctors that so much the more ought euery Christian to inforce himself to hold and keep that article entire without suffring any to make any exceptiō therof or to restrain it at his pleasure vnder any pretexts of I know not what repugnancies of creatures which humane spirit proposeth for want of vnderstanding and comprehending the greatnesse of God For the scriptures do euer present vnto vs this omnipotēcy generally without any restraint in regard of creatures or of the workes of God And teacheth vs that the creatures is in his hands as the clayin the hand of the Potter to receiue such change and forme as shall seeme good vnto him without that they can say Why hast thou made or chaunged mee thus Such similitude and words the Prophet Esay Ieremy and S. Paul do vse Moreouer the Doctors say that men must yet lesse be lycensed to limit and bound the foresayd power according to the contradictions which in theyr writings they imagine of the nature wisedome or eternall will of God Seeing that the scripture saith plainly that God can doo more then wee vnderstand and mocketh at them which will entermeddle with the nature wisedome and eternall will of God as though they had bene of counsell with him to know thereby the decisions and ordinances more then his owne word pronounceth thereof And S. Paule in the end constraineth with himselfe euery spirit created to cry out confessing his ignorance of the power wisedome and workes of God Oh the deepnesse of the riches wisedome and knowledge of God how incomprehensible are his iudgements and his wayes past finding out For who is he that hath knowne the minde of the Lord Or who hath bene his Counsailor And an excellent saying of S. Augustine vpō this point is to be noted who in an Epistle Advolusianum saith We confesse that God can doo something the which in searching wee cannot finde As if hee would say to wit if God can doo something albeit in our naturall iudgement wee thinke it impossible wee esteeme it neuerthelesse that it is possible but that the capacitie of our spirit cannot comprehend the same The Doctors say asso that by such libertie and meanes that any will exempt what hee liketh from the power of God vnder colour of some impossibilities of nature or of repugnancie after his owne iudgement to the nature wisedome and will of God each one will studie to faine the like in all matters of faith wherein such causes may bee easily inuented and well disguised And that it is so from the first article of the Creed vnto the last let all the heresies which haue bene there contradicted be from time to time obserued and it will appeare that all haue held this way and method to fight against euery article of faith as impossible to God respecting the impossibilitie of the worke according to nature and some pretended inconueniences against the nature wisedome will and glorie of God The Doctors employ to this effect the two first bookes of Tertullian one whereof is of the incarnation of Iesus Christ and the other against the Marcionists of the resurrection of the flesh In which the Christian reader shall perceiue the like arguments of those Marcionists endeuouring to exempt from the omnipotencie of God the incarnation of our Lord and the resurrectiō of the flesh Then to conclude this point the Doctors do forewarne euery Christian that they adde not ought to the scriptures which speake alwaies without any limitation of the power of GOD towards the creatures and to the ende to praise the infinite power wisedome and eternall will of our Creator and Redeemer and to the end to preserue the closet of Gods secrets from euery shamelesse and impudent person which of his own folly wil make a law not only to mē of heretikes Credendo non credunt To wit that in beleeuing Gods omnipotencie they beleeue it not For after they haue said that no exception is to be put vnto it on the other side they returne to declare that it ought not bee extended to euery thing which humane spi◠t can conceiue And indeed they will not apply vnto it but what seemeth good vnto them and shrowd themselues with the nature wisdome and eternall will of God which to them are vnknowne and incomprehensible as that of the Omnipotencie The Doctors therefore do admonish all men to beware of beeing abused with the words of Caluin and his Ministers but to regard the works which they denie to be in the power of God The Doctors haue proposed to them these foure questions to wit whether God can make one body to be in two places and contrariwise two bodies in one place whether hee can lodge one body in a lesse space then the greatnesse thereof and whether he can make it invisible And such questions haue beene specially chosen because the principall arguments of the pretended reformed Religion against the true presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament are founded vpon the same The Doctors beleeue simply as all other things that the foure questions are possible to God and haue proued the same by the infinitenesse of his power by the scriptures which attribute vnto him
in the assembly one selfe-same bread to the end that all the partakers thereof should bee by that meane conioyned and more straightly closed in one body each one hath his owne particular the Priest one more great and the people one lesse Seeing also that the Cup is not any way distributed to them Furthermore what dutie do the Priests to inuite and exhort the people to communicate with them yea the Bishops themselues who would at this day repute it great shame to communicate with crafts-men and other inferior people To conclude had the Doctors well noted the custome of the Fathers which caused the Cathecumenians others there not prepared to communicate to depart the place where the Communion was celebrated and that likewise which S. Iohn Chrisostome saith thereof they would shame to defend such an abuse impietie as is that of their Masse And that the people may not bee ignorant of that which these holy Doctors therof saith we will translate the same word for word It is in vaine that the daily sacrifice is made It is in vaine that we abide at the Aultar there is no person which there communicateth I say not this to the end that yee communicate in any sort soeuer but that ye yeeld your selues worthy thereof Art thou not worthy to communicate so art thou not worthy to pray Also a litle after If some one were called to a banquet should wash his hands and sitting at the table should not eate nor taste ought of the meates which should there be serued should he not dishonour and wrong him that inuited him had it not bin better he had not come there Euen so it is with thee Thou art come thou hast sung the Psalme with the rest of the people thou hast confessed that thou wast of the number of the worthy in not departing with them which are vnworthy How then abidest thou and doost not perticipate of the table of the Lord Thou sayest I am vnworthy I answere thee that thou art so whereby also vnworthy of the Communion of prayers Thirdly the gobbets and offalls of Gospels and Epistles the Symbole praier other peeces of the scripture brought all confused and not hanging together said and proposed to the people in an vnknowne language against the expresse commaundement of God and without any edification of the congregation is no other thing then a vaine vsurpation of the name of God against the expresse prohibition which he hath made thereof And such robes are too straight and short to couer the shame and filthinesse of the Masse Fourthly what an execrable abuse is it to say that the Masse serueth to obtaine remission of sinnes not onely for the quicke but also for the dead And that the Priests passing yet further not to forget or leaue any blasphemy behind do diuide their hoste into three parts faigning one part to be for them in heauen an other for them which are on earth and the third for them in Purgatorie For the Sacrament which is not ordained but for confirmation of the faith of the word extendeth not further then the Ministerie nor the Ministerie further then this life As then it is so that they which are in heauen and they likewise whom they faine to be in Purgatorie are dead and departed from this world we must necessarily conclude that as the word cannot be preached to them so also the Sacraments cannot be administred to them And if they be not administred to them that they can profit them nothing The end of the Resolution Answeres to the last obiections proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper THe Ministers say that many things there are in the said obiections impertinent to the matter in question as that they demaund how long the doctrine abode in it puritie touching the Supper and the other articles of Religion Wherevnto they answere that from the time of the Apostles themsemselues there were heretikes and Antichrists as Ebion Cerinthus Simon Magus the Samaritanes and others who by their errors and heresies went then about to peruert the Aposto lique Churches and corrupt the pure doctrine which was therein Wherevntothe Apostles by all possible wayes did manfully oppose themselues reuoking and euer reducing all things to their first institution and foundation of the pure word of God as we see did S. Paul towards the Câ—rinthians and Galathians whose Churches although he had well planted and watered were neuerthelesse corrupred in his life time as well in manners as in doctrine And to that which the Doctors demaund how long after the decease of the Apostles continued the puritie of the doctrine and Religion in the Church of God as well in the Article of the Supper as in others the Ministers answere that so long time it there continued as the word of God was followed and preached To that which the Doctors say afterwards traducing the Supper celebrated in the reformed Church that the Ministers abuse those that are there present nought else giuing them but nothing betweene two dishes the Ministers answere that this blason much better fitteth the Doctors then them because they present not to them whom they haue summoned to their Masses but accideÌ„ts of indiuisible waues and the sight onely of the formes of bread and wine to feed them withall A litle after do they call their sacrifice of the Masse most precious whervpon the Ministers grant that they haue reason so to exault it to attribute thervnto so precious and magnificall a tytle for the great reuenewes and riches which this precious sacrifice hath brought vnto them wherof may well be said that it hath bene vnto them a fleece and golden Myne more abundant then euer was that of Iason or all the Mynes of the East In as much as they haue made the world beleeue and chiefly the founders of Abbayes Priories and other benifices that their sacrifices were vaileable to them for the redemption remedie and health of theyr soules Afterwards without all shame do the Doctors call the Supper of the Lord detestable because there is nought therein offred say they but common bread wine Whervnto the Ministers answere that in their Supper is truly presented bread and wine to the people which after consecration abide in their substance as before but they denie that therfore the said bread and wine be common by reason as heretofore hath bene amply declared to the Doctors that by the preaching of the Gospell and recytall of the ordinance of God both the one and the other is changed as is said touching the vse but not touching the nature To that wherein the Doctors do charge the Ministers to make insurrections conuenticles coniurations conspiracies and secret practises against the state of their Prince vnder colour pretext of their Supper the Ministers answer that the same was not to impugne their doctrine but rather shamelesly to despight and slaunder them And that the fidelitie of those of the reformed religion hath bene knowne