Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
Church is the pillar of truth whosoeuer doth separate himselfe from the Church doth depart from the truth And by this we do still proue that you are all heretickes and scismatikes and do peruert the scriptures because you take them not as the Church doth expound them The scriptures seeme to be on your side but they are not they seeme to be against vs but they are not Pro. This is very sound stuffe you make three strong conclusions out of three sentences of the scriptures In the first ye reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore none can vnderstand the scriptures but the learned by this your meaning is to shut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine and to allow vnderstanding of the scriptures to none but the learned that is the Clergie of Rome for that we shal haue by and by But ye ouershoote your selfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men doth meane such as haue not bin brought vp in schoole learning and so put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie No he counteth all those learned which are taught of God both of the common sort of people and other all those are vnlearned which are not taught of God although otherwise they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts or whatsoeuer Such as haue learned Christ Iesus and him crucified and so are become new creatures in Christ they are learned Col. 2. For in him are all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge He that hath not learned Christ he is vnlearned If he be not new borne but as S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 3. cōmitteth sin he hath not séene him nor knowne him although otherwise he be neuer so studied a mā in the scriptures Math. 11. For this cause we see that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wisedome because they imbraced the doctrine of Christ when the great Doctors the Scribes and Pharisies were starke blind They sayd none followed Christ but the multitude which knew not the law Iohn 7. which were accursed when as indeede they were blind and accursed themselues so fareth it now with the Pope and his shauelings they say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures when themselues do not The next sentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter also where hee saith No scripture is of priuate interpretation From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vs may interprete but Rome onely No priuate man is to interprete the scriptures because no scripture is of priuate interpretation all those which are not of the Popish Cleargie or which haue not authority in the Church from the Pope or do not expound as the Church are priuate men therfore none of those are to interprete the scriptures Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will haue all to himselfe But ye deale deceiptfully or at the least vnskilfully with the text which ye alleadge for Saint Peter when he saith priuate doth not speake it to make this difference betweene men as though for interpreting the scriptures some shold haue authority some should be priuate but he setteth men against God calling that priuate which is of man For he doth reason thus the scripture was not giuen by the will of man but by the spirite of God therefore the interpretation thereof must bee of God men must not bring that which is their owne If the interpretation be by the spirit then is it not priuate if it be out of mans braine although it should be the Pope al his Cardinals yea ten thousand Popes it is still priuate after the sense in which S. Peter doth call priuate For let any skilful man in the greeke tongue looke vpon the word which is idias epiluseos and he will confesse that it doth signifie that which is ones owne Then the sense is plaine and it is also manifest how peeuishly you peruert the word of God What manner of argument is this a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne therfore none may interprete them but the Church of Rome Your last reason is not worth answering for although it is most true that the Church is the pillar of truth that those are voyd of truth which abide not in the Church yet this is as false that the Pope his company are the Church of Christ as the other is true and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schismatikes for departing from you which are a den of theeues which haue conspired against the truth Pa. Two grosse things and strange I gather out of your words the one that you would haue the people of themselues to iudge of doctrine the other ye will haue no other interpreter of the sense of the Scriptures but the Spirit I pray ye I am an vnlearned man would faine know which is the truth I heare you alleadge the scriptures in one sense and you say you haue the spirit our men alleadge them in another sense and say they haue the spirit the Anabaptists they haue the spirite the Arrians they interprete by the spirit what shal I do here is euery man hath the spirit yet euery one goeth a contrary way It is manifest therefore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vnto or else the simple man cannot tell which way to turne him What shall he do now but looke how the Church beleeueth and rest in that For he must haue that which may teach him to know which of all these hath the true spirit or else he is neuer the neerer Pro. Ye find two grosse things in my words one of them is that I say the people can iudge of doctrine when it is preached What doth our Sauior Christ meane when he saith Iohn 10. My sheep heare my voyce a stranger they wil not heare they flie frō strangers Cā they know the voice of the true shepheard from the false can they not discerne doctrine The other is that I will haue none other interpreter of the sense of the scriptures but the spirit 1. Cor. 2. S. Paul saith the eare hath not heard nor the eye hath not seene neither came into mans hart the things which God hath prepared for them that loue him but God hath reuealed them vnto vs by his spirite for the spirite searcheth all things yea the deepe things of God And the great doubt which you put forth in the simple man which would faine vnderstand the truth and which of all those foure that ye named haue the spirit I answer that if he himselfe haue not the spirite of God to teach him he shall not be able to iudge but if the spirite do teach him then can he find it for the spirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine which is his doth teach the other to know that doctrine and in them consenteth vnto it being his owne and therefore
meaning thereof from your Church and although we haue the most cleare testimonies of the Scriptures against you yet ye set light thereby and all because your Church cannot erre and you expound them otherwise Therefore there is by your doctrine no rule left for a man to build his faith vppon but the exposition of the gouernours in the Church Aunswere me directly vnto this were there not false Prophetes in olde time among the people of the Iewes Pa. The Scripture doth shew that there were somtime a great number at once and the Church of God did euer condemne them Pro. But tell me how did the people know who were the true Prophets and who were the false the one side commeth and they say thus saith the Lord no saith the other side that is false thus saith the Lord quite contrary to the other and not only at some times a multitude of false Prophets against one true seruant of God but also the high Priestes and other Priests and gouernours in the Church taking part with them against the true Prophet Where was then your golden rule which ye would haue the common sort to measure their faith by I beleeue as the Church beleeueth I cannot iudge I must not meddle with the meaning of the Scriptures Pa. Proue this which you haue sayd it is an easie matter to affirme and you are ready to doe that but your proofes come slowly Can you shew that the high Priests and gouernours in the Temple did ioyne with the false prophets against the true Prophet Pro. They come a little faster then you would gladly haue them or else you would not be so calme if there were but a little matter of colour against vs for want of proofe you would set vp your bristles by and by and you would crowe but when the matter brought out doth choke ye then ye say there is nothing brought ye bid me proue that whē there were false Prophets and that sundry against one they had the Priests and rulers of the Church on their side Reade Ieremias the Prophet ye shall find the false Prophets against him and the Priests also and euen as you say against Luther and other which imbrace the holy Gospell they be heretikes the Pope cannot erre so say they for themselues against Ieremias Iere. 18. come let vs imagine some deuise against him for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor the counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophete Were the godly people now which forsooke the Priests Iere. 1. Princes and Prophets and gaue eare to Ieremias apostats Did not the Lord tell him at the first when he sent him that he should haue the people the Priests and Princes against him Also ye may see it very fully and plainely expressed Iere. 20. that Pashur the Priest which was appointed chiefe in the house of God did smite Ieremias and put him in the stockes when hee heard him prophesie here was a right Pope a stoute Bishop that durst set Gods Prophet in the stockes This thing is set foorth in sundry places of the Prophets how the Priests the false Prophetes were linked together against the true messengers of the Lord. For ye may see how the Priests and Prophets and people lay hold on Ieremias Iere. 26. and would haue put him to death for the Priests Prophets accused Ieremias before the Princes that hee was worthy of death Eze. 22. The Prophet Ezechiel also complaineth grieuously of the Priestes and the Prophets Also long before the time of Ieremias Ezechiel the Lord complayned of the Priestes and Prophetes for their wickednesse For thus he saith by Mica Mica 3. the Princes iudge for bribes the Priests teach for reward and the Prophets do prophesie for money Behold also what God complaineth against the Priests and Prophetes euen in the dayes of the most godly king Iosia as ye may reade in the Prophet Sophanie Sopha 3. Likewise where the holy Ghost sheweth the cause of the great destruction which came vpon Hierusalem 2. Chro. 36 he saith that al the chiefe Priests and people committed many transgressions according to all the abhominations of the heathen and defiled the house of God which he had sanctified in Hierusalem how God sent vnto them his Prophetes but they would not heare them See then if the wickednesse of the Priests draw the Lord out of his Temple vnto which he had made so glorious promises and which he had chosen to be the place where he would be worshipped shall we now tie him to that chaire from which there haue come the most horrible villanies against God almost that euer were committed in the world shall we say that the most pure most holy God hath fastened himselfe to the mother of whoredomes and abominations Pa. Ye take great paines to small profit for a man may in a word ouerthrow all that you haue built ye haue shewed how the Priestes and gouernours in the Temple did corrupt their wayes and ioyned with the false Prophetes against the true messengers of the Lord. You gather out of this that there was no rule left in the Church for the people to trie the worship and seruice of God by but this conclusion of yours doth not follow because the corruption of maners and withstanding the true Prophets did not hinder but that they remayned still the Church and the worship appointed in the Temple was not to be despised for if any did forsake it they were indeed Apostats for whē they were euen at the worst Christ sendeth such as he had cleansed of the leprosie to shew themselues to the Priest and to offer the gift which Moses had commanded This must needes be so for otherwise how should that saying of Christ Math. 18. dic ecclesiae tell the Church be a perpetuall rule to all the people if there be once no Church visible to tell that cause vnto where is then the doctrine and precept of Christ Here therefore I say still ye be heretikes and apostats insomuch as ye haue departed frō the holy mother the Church ye haue forsaken the fellowship of the faithfull that which ye pretend the abuses of the Church is no excuse at all for will ye forsake your mother because she wanteth perfect beauty or because there is some deformity in her the abuses are to be reformed the thing must not be destroyed I would wish ye therfore to returne and to submit your selues againe and not to cast away your soules for ye be all damned heretickes which be out of the Church Pro. The breath of your mouth is very strong when as with one blast ye are able to ouerthrow whatsoeuer a man can bring out of the word of God But ye deceiue your selfe greatly for Gods truth will stand when you shall fall Your poore and silly shifts wil stand ye in no steed you make your reason after this maner when the Priests were
most corrupt either in maners or withstanding the true Prophets yet they remayned still the Church and the seruice and worship in the Temple was not to be despised if any did they were apostats This ye confirme by such as Christ hauing cleansed he sendeth to offer to the priests then by a perpetual rule which Christ gaue dic ecclesiae tel the Church Hereupō ye cōclude again that we be heretikes because we haue forsakē the Church of Rome where ye tel vs that the abuses shold not driue vs to do so we must not forsake our mother for some deformity and want of beauty I wil answer ye that this argument may easily be denied when you say those which did forsake the worship in the Temple were Apostats therefore those which forsake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apostats for to make this hold you must first proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome as he had then to the Temple and that he hath chosen Rome as he then chose mount Sion which ye shall neuer be able to do because it is most false And then ye must proue that your worship which you maintaine is that which God hath commanded and then doubtlesse hee that shall depart from that is an heretike For if any did depart from worshipping in the Temple hee was not an apostat for departing from wicked Priests but for refusing that which God had appointed him to do We depart not but from a den of theeues and from an heape of damnable errors and not from that which God hath commanded so Christ sendeth the Leapers which he had clensed to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moses which was to be done to be done no where but in the Temple where the Priests bare the sway The other reason which ye bring as a perpetuall rule of Christ dic ecclesiae tell the Church is of no value for although the rule be perpetual doth it therfore follow that it can alwayes bee put in practise Hath Christ by that rule where he saith if thy brother offend against thee reproue him if that do not serue take one or two with thee if he will not heare them tell the Church c. set downe that there shall be euer a true and visible Church which will correct the offenders How say ye to the Church of Israel in the dayes of the Prophet Elias 1. King 19. when he complained to God that they had killed his Prophets digged downe his Altars and that he only was left they sought his life God made him answere that he had a Church among them I haue left vnto me seuen thousand in Israel c. which Elias did not sée Where was Dic ecclesiae now become Must they bring their Dic ecclesiae to those which are fallen away from God will excōmunicate the children of God Iohn 9. as the Pharisies did the blind man Did he euer come vnto them to be absolued When your diuellish sinagogue do excommunicate vs we be the nigher vnto Christ It is true which ye say that the true Church must not be forsaken for certaine abuses but if the abuses be such as vtterly destroy the faith as yours are then is it no longer the Church of Christ but a company of wicked hell hounds and therefore ye do but loose your labour when you exhort vs to rerurne to your Church which is no mother of ours but she is the whore of Babylon which hath filled the earth with her fornications There are none blessed vnlesse they depart from her her wayes are the wayes of damnation Reuel 18. come out of Babylon sayth the Angell of our God Pa. I could answer ye againe with words but so I should but spend time neither doe I like of long circumstances without matter which is the fashion of you heretikes when ye haue no sound reasons then to make a shew of speech and fall to rayling Pro. You cannot abide words without matter neither can your meeke spirite tell which way to fall to rayling but let any indifferent man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors set forth and he will confesse that in many words there will be found little matter Take away your vntruthes slaunders and spitefull raylings there will be but a little left behind If we speake of you that which the Scriptures pronounce against you by and by we rayle Did Iohn Baptist rayle when he called the Pharisies Math. 3. The generation of Vipers But seeing ye ione matter let vs see it to proue our doctrine to be new ye must bring stronger reasons then that the Church of Rome for certaine hundred yeares hath not allowed it there is no point of our faith but it is farre more auncient then your popish decrees your bauld and doltish shift to driue vs onely to your exposition of the Scriptures is not worth a straw Gods holy spirit hath bestowed great gifts vpon his Church in these last dayes Proceed with your matter Pa. Nay you shall not so slylie conuey your selfe ye make smal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apostles Your exposition of the word began of late in Germany and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike Pro. Seeing ye must needes lie it is good to lie for somewhat all holy Doctors and Teachers from the Apostles are on your side this all doth signifie none For the very truth is as euery man that can reade their writings may see that they be except in a very few points all against ye sauing such holy diuels as within these latter times haue bene the Popes owne Doctors Our exposition is the same which the godly fathers before Antichrist had gotten the vpper seate in the Temple did vse therefore Catholike although your mother disallow it Pa. Nay heretickes be liers we say the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our side we succeede them we honour loue and commend them more then you we pray for their helpe you seeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them let all the world be iudge whose side they are like to be of ours or yours when we haue them in so great and high estimation and you set so light by them Can we bee fallen from them as you say being so readie to doe them all the homage we can our hearts do witnesse that we do it in simplicity Moreouer all your matter is not worth a straw which ye haue brought out of the Church of the Iewes ye haue shewed that in Israel Elias could see no Church that in the Temple the Priests and false Prophets did conspire against the true messengers of the Lord. This were somewhat if you could shew it in our Church vnto which Christ hath made his promise neuer to forsake it but to giue it his spirite
certaintie to trie the trée and to know it by the fruite And hath the spirit which made them and preserueth them so lost his power and are his qualities and operations so weake that he cannot bée discerned from the spirit of the diuell Are his fruites such as they cannot be discerned from the rotten fruites of the flesh and the workes of darknes Ephes 1. Rom. 8. Saint Paul saith that we are sealed with the holy spirit of promise he willeth mē to walke after the spirit not after the flesh he setteth forth the fruites of the flesh Galath 5. and the fruites of the spirit Rom. 8. He saith that this spirit doth beare witnesse vnto our spirit that we are the sonnes of God This should bee but a weake witnesse if wee should not bée able to know whether we haue him or not But perhaps all these scriptures many other which I could cite haue not light enough in them for your blind eyes and therefore I will shew ye the thing more fully thus A man heareth the word of God preached 1. Cor. 12. it striketh his heart and conuerteth him wheras before he was as blind as a béetle now he séeth the light whereas before he had no loue to the holy word of God now his hart is inflamed with zeale and delight in it whereas before his care was of this world couetousnes did cause him gréedily to séeke vnlawfull gaine now his mind is bent vpon heauenly things and after them he séeketh whereas before he was full of adulteries riot wantonnes vanity now his wicked affections are tamed and altered he much abhorreth such filthines and whereas before he could neuer cease doing euill he was neuer at ease but when he delighted himselfe in some vngodlinesse now he is a man quite changed he doth much lament and sorrow that euer he was so wicked to despise God all his ioy is now to doe good workes the feare of God is before his eyes now féeling this wonderfull chaunge in himselfe that he is new borne to God that he is a new creature he knoweth right well that he is lead by the holy spirit of GOD and that he hath wrought this new worke in him Pa. It seemeth by your talke that such as haue receiued the spirit are so sure that they cannot be deceiued To what purpose then was Saint Paul so carefull to warne the true Christians to take heede yea we may see that there were diuers of them seduced This is quite contrarie to that certaintie which you doe speake of Pro. There is no cōtrariety in these things for if any were seduced and drawne away frō the truth vnto destruction it is most certaine they were neuer sealed with the spirit but had some small taste He laboureth with the other to haue them grow strong to bee grounded and rooted in the trueth not to bée as children carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine for the blessed Apostle Saint Peter describing such false Teachers as you 2. Pet. 2. sheweth that they shall beguile vnstable soules Such therefore as will not bee seduced neither by you nor any other heretikes must abound in knowledge and grace for so wee are willed If the wisedome of the holy Ghost be in vs and hath inlightened vs the subtiltie of the diuell and the power of darknesse shall not ouercome vs the power of the holy Ghost is greater then the power of Satan and for this cause we are sure of victorie If this were not we could haue but small comfort we should he but in woe case It is not your greasie pope which could helpe vs which himselfe is ouercome of the diuell and obeyeth his will Pa. Well well for this matter I say still that your doctrine is new that ye condemne all our forefathers and whereas you would seeme to proue that it is the ancient Catholike faith because ye proue it by the Scriptures I say you proue nothing for the Scriptures can proue nothing without the interpretation of the Church you can not interprete neither can ye iudge but the great shepheard whose voyce ye should heare must giue the sense therefore I say still that ye be heretikes all the packe of yee and but that I spare ye I could bite ye a little better I am sorie ye bee so wilfull Pro. When ye haue spent all your powder then yée retire backe againe into your castle which is so sure as you suppose that nothing can batter the walles but when a man doth view them well he shall finde them to be but painted clothes For in very déed ye stand obstinately and frowardly vpon certaine bare affirmations And when a man hath neuer so strongly confuted and disproued them yet ye alleadge them still But let this go and come to the rest Ye say ye could but that ye spare me or els that ye are musled bite me a little better I feare not your teeth for I trust your biting will not ranckle not because they bée not venime but because I am so well defensed that ye cannot fasten your téeth vpon me But spare not powre out all your poyson and doe your worst Pa. Yee doe but gibe and mocke at those things which I speake it is euen according to your profession yee are deriders of good things and of the true Catholike faith take heede it is better for ye to repent and to turne home againe to the holy Church which ye haue and doe dishonour I said that I did spare ye and it shall appeare now for I will touch ye a little neerer and yet but with the trueth not with all that I might say neither for it were infinite to rehearse all your abominable waies which ye walke in and are to bee charged withal A little shall suffice I say by your wicked and carnall doctrine euen your new Gospell ye teach all loosenes and licentious libertie to the flesh As for example ye denie the merits of good workes ye teach that men are iustified by faith without good deeds ye teach Election and Predestination and denie freewill and so by this meanes the people are brought to haue no care of good workes but to liue as they lust for thus it doth follow if we be iustified by faith alone what neede we care for good workes If we bee chosen and predestinate and haue no freewill left in vs to chuse or refuse then let God alone wee cannot further nor hinder our selues what should wee eare let vs then set cocke a hoope and take our pleasure while we be here this is your sweet doctrine thus ye teach Pro. I néede not maruell to heare ye threaten to bite me whē ye dare open your mouth to blaspheme the Lord God and to barke like a most filthie and prophane dogge against the most glorious Gospell of Christ Which howsoeuer ye belie it doth teach all heauenly puritie and care of good workes They bée conclusions of your owne
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
not to be an horse but a dog that the simple man cannot answere yet neuerthelesse because he is sure it is a horse and his owne not a dog the other may make many reasons which he vnderstādeth not how to auoide notwithstanding they cannot once bring him in doubt or to goe from that which he knoweth Euen so al the subtil cauillations of the diuel and his ministers when they come against the faith and knowledge of a godlie simple man which is grounded in the word of God cannot once moue him the déepe fetches and subtilties may make him muse but yet because he doth certainly know the trueth he doth not giue ouer that he hath felt the power of the word of God in himselfe and therfore is out of doubt it hath done that in him which cannot be wrought but by GOD. Vnstable soules may be beguiled for they haue not felt the power of godlines Yée would haue mée proue that God commaundeth the vnlearned men to studie and exercise themselues in the Scriptures I am ashamed to heare ye doubt of that matter Pa. If ye be ashamed to haue that doubted of then I trow ye will be ashamed not to proue it Pro. I would you would be also ashamed of your wilfull blindnesse and sée when things are manifestly proued Did not God vtter his word by Moses vnto the Israelites both men and women Did he not giue it them in their owne tongue Did he not charge them by Moses euen the lay people Deut. 6. and 11. that they should put his words vpon their heart and vpon their soule and binde them for a signe vpon their hands and teach them their children to talke of thē as they sat in the house as they walked by the way when they did lie downe and when they did rise vp Hosh 4. Are not the people blamed both among the Iewes and also in the time of the Gospell for their ignorance and dulnes Are they not exhorted to grow in knowledge and vnderstanding euery where Heb. 5. Did not Christ and all his Apostles trauell night and day to bring the people to vnderstanding 2. Pet. 3. Doe not the Apostles pray that they might be filled and abound in all knowledge Colos 1. Did they not giue great charge vnto other to teach and féede the flocke diligently Philip. 1. Acts 20. 2. Tim. 4. Did they not open all the counsels of God vnto the people Will your holy mother the whore of Babylon bee wiser then all these Did all these trauell in vaine Did Paul foolishly when he commaunded that men should not speake in the Church in a strange language 1. Cor. 14. vnlesse it were interpreted that so the rest might bee edified For shame giue ouer and confesse that your great whore hath done as fowle villanie to the Church of God as could bee in taking from thē the word of life and putting out the light to the ende that she might play the whore and commit all her abominations in the darke where none should espie them The light doth now shine so cléere that she shall neuer bee able to hide her selfe any more nor to couer her shame vnlesse it bee among those Night-birdes such as you are which cannot abide the light Pa. VVould yee make men beleeue that it is commaunded as a thing so necessarie and profitable when we see what followeth since the scriptures haue been opened vnto the people VVhat a multitude of sects and diuisions and quarrels haue risen VVhence commeth all this but that holy things are giuen to dogs Matth. 7. and precious pearles are cast before swine The vnholy and vnpure and sinfull men doe as it were with filthie vnwashed hands handle the heauenly mysteries and each man doeth gather for his turne that which liketh himselfe and then they are puffed vp and prattle they know not what I wisse I wisse they might bee better occupied then to meddle with the word of God which should not be touched but with great reuerence now euery one will bee pratling of it euen vpon their ale-bench Wherefore did Christ speake in parables Luke 8. Matth. 23. and tolde the Apostles that to them it did belong to know the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that they might see and not see Doubtlesse as I sayd before there is great cause why the scriptures should not be knowne of the people When they did not know them they agreed and went all one way now hee is of this sect hee is of that sect he sayth this is trueth another saith that a man cannot tell which way to turne him Your learned men also themselues are at warre one against another one confuting another in their sermons in their writings alas must it not then much more follow among the vnlearned people If the learned cannot vnderstād the Scriptures how shall they which haue no learning O how well were our forefathers which knew none of all this I would the reading of the Scriptures did make men no worse thē they were they had good soules to Godward now men are starke nought Pro. The great subtiltie of the diuell to draw men away from reading the Scriptures appeareth in ye ye would proue it not only a thing vnnecessarie to haue them knowne but also very euill This yée proue by the effects which follow as diuisions and quarrels and sects by the same reason ye may proue that it had béen good neuer to haue heard of Christ about whom there haue béen so many quarrels in the world Esay 28. 2. Pet. 1. Many doe stumble at him he is the rocke of offence vnto many but the fault is in men and not in him Euen so the wicked which abuse the Gospell although they be neuer so many yet must not cause the small number of Gods elect to be depriued of their right and to be spoyled of their comfort So soone as the Gospell appeareth the diuell laboureth by his instruments to bring an infamie vpon it and to make men beléeue it is naught for it is he which raiseth vp sects and errors Gods word is not the cause He would by that meanes bring men into a maze that they should not know which way to turne them But you say the cause is that holy things are giuē to dogs and precious pearles are cast before swine Ye reason euen like your forefathers the proude Pharisies which took themselues to be so holy that they were not to bee taught and so wise skilfull that they regarded not others The multitude were accursed Iohn 9. the blind mā he was altogether borne in sinne you wretches count them dogs and swine and your selues holie whereas your selues haue plaied the notable vilaines and haue dealt vnreuerētly with the word of God Matth. 9. The Pharisies blamed Christ that he did eate with Publicanes sinners he answered that he came not to call the righteous Luke
5. but sinners to repentance You say sinfull mē are permitted to deale with the scriptures we answere the more sinful the greater néed they haue to know the scriptures because they must reforme them and cure them other meanes for the sinners there are none Psal 119. Wherewithall saith the Prophet shall a young man clense his waies euen by taking héed thereto according to thy word Ye reason euen as handsomly as if a man should count it vnméet for those to come to the water to wash them which are all myred or if a man should be out of his way in the darke let him haue no light because he is out of his way Matth. 12. O yee wicked Pharisies yée shut vp the kingdome of God before men yée neither enter your selues neither do ye suffer those which would Let thousand thousands and millians of thousands deale vndiscréetlie and wickedly with the word gather all kinde of diuelish errors out of it by peruerting it be puffed vp with their knowledge make but a pratling thereof yet this must not let but that if God had but ten chosen in the world his counsels must be opened vnto them Men abuse the word when they talke vnreuerently of it therefore you say it is to bee remoued théeues and quarrellers doe fight rob and kill with their weapons therefore the true men must cast them away Doe ye not know that we are commanded for to meditate and talk of the holy scriptures night and day but yet reuerently Is not the word of God called the sword of the spirit Ephes 6. with which wee must fight against the diuell Doth not Christ our captaine giue vs example Matth. 4. when he still alleageth the scriptures against him How childish are ye in alleadging this that Christ did speake in parables and said it was giuen to the disciples to knowe the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that in seeing they might not see I pray ye were they the vnlearned only of whom he speaketh Were they not the great clarkes the Scribes and Pharisies which did see not perceiue heare and not vnderstand Yea it is to be vnderstood of all the reprobate both the learned and vnlearned As on the other side the mysteries of the kingdome of GOD are reueiled to simple ones Matth. 11. I thanke thée O father saith Christ Lord of heauen and earth that thou hast hid these things from the wise prudent and hast opened them vnto babes Doe ye not sée in the Gospell how our Sauiour Christ did publish the Gospell instruct the multitude Is it not testified that publicanes and sinners did imbrace the same whē the wise ones despised the counsel of God Doth not Christ tell thē that publicanes harlots should go before them into the kingdom of God Luke 7. Matth. 21. You say they went all one way when they knew not the scriptures Doubtles the heathen men went all one way but it was no good way for it was to destruction euen so as many as did not as S. Paul saith receiue the loue of the trueth that they might be saued 2. Thess ◠God did send thē strong delusiō to beléeue lies so they were damned These were not all our forefathers for God alwaies shewed his trueth to his seruants Ye say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures whē as the learned doe not but are set one against an other one doth confute another ye should conclude of this that because learned men doe raise vp errors aswell as the vnlearned therefore the scriptures ought to be taken away frō them also and so ye should make sure worke Let God speake no more vnlesse he can do better let the Pope onely vtter his minde and heare him for he will tell a plaine tale Pa. This is euen like all your schismatikes and heretikes for all of ye doe allow errors quarrels and contentions Ye thinke it a small matter to haue the world filled and set vpon an vprore with them ye doe euen glorie in them as though there could be no trueth without them Oh say you it is a certaine and infallible proofe that ours is the true Gospell that so great troubles and sundrie sects do follow it Thus ye are not ashamed to confesse the euil fruits of your doctrine so that others need not to speake thereof Many other such like speeches ye vtter Pro. I am no liker those which imbrace the trueth then ye are like your father not the father of trueth but of lyes for let a man conuict ye a thousand times in your sayings yet ye will not sticke to lie and slaunder Where can ye euer shew that any true professor of the Gospell doth allow errors quarrels contentions Because we say that the scriptures must not bee taken from the people although neuer so many errors and schismes do follow can ye gather thereof that we allow the same no we detest and abhorre from the bottome of our hearts such trecherie of the diuell and his wicked instruments We count it a lamentable thing to see the malice of the diuell and of the wicked world to bee so great that so soone as euer Christ and his Gospell appeare they bend all their might against it seeking all meanes to quench the light thereof and vtterly to banish it From hence doe spring all vprores and tumults in the Church We affirme indéede that this is a proofe that it is the Gospell of Christ that the wicked world cannot abide it if it were of the world the world would loue his owne but because it is not of the world therefore the prince of the world with all the power and armies that hee can make doth rise vp against it for Satan will not bee dispossessed of his hold without great stur The strong man armed which kéepeth his house Matth. 12. must first be bound before his house cā be spoyled When there shall be no diuell no wicked ones no kingdome set vp against the kingdom of God whē Christ shall haue none enemies then the Gospell may come foorth in peace without troubles tumults sects errors and such like But so long as all those do remaine wherefore should the Gospell lose any glorie because these things follow it nay why shuld it not bee so much the more glorious that it doth breake through all these things and by it Christ doth rule in the midst of his enemies When the Prophet foretolde that the stone which the builders refused Psal 110. was become the head of the corner he addeth Psal 118. this is the Lords doing and it is marueilous in our eyes So this is the Lords doing and it is most marueilous in our eyes that so many cruell persecutions doe follow the Gospell and yet cannot banish it so many heapes or rather floods of monstrous errors do euen as it were flow ouer it to couer it to corrupt
changing your place and roomes The high priests Scribes and Pharisies among the Iewes had their succession and place longer then you and yet Christ and his Apostles did depart from them and were neither heretikes nor schismatikes And why because they had first departed from the truth Ye must not stand vpō one clause but take that which doth follow with it This falling away shal be by the man of sinne the sonne of perdition who was to bee reuealed which is an aduersary and exalteth himself aboue al that is called God or that hath imperiall maiestie so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God boasting or shewing himselfe to be God This is one sentence which doth set the brand in the forehead of your Pope the scarre whereof will euidently appeare when ye haue made as fine worke as ye can Pa. Now ye are come vnto the matter I trow ye will make it plaine and out of all doubt This is spoken indeede of Antichrist but where will ye finde one iot of it in the Bishop of Rome Where will ye finde that euer he hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped which word you translate at your pleasure otherwise thē euer I heard it before that which hath imperial maiestie Ye must proue that the Pope hath exalted himself aboue God or els ye haue slandered blasphemed him Such an one shal Antichrist be Pro. This is all fulfilled by the Pope as I will shew I am not to proue that he hath exalted himselfe aboue God but that hée hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God Psalm 82. The kings of the earth are that which is called God for the Scripture saith they are called Gods Iohn 10. And because sebasma which is translated that which is worshipped is in the New Testament giuen to the Emperors of Rome I translate it that which hath imperiall maiestie or dignitie Ye may see that not onely among the prophane writers the epithite sebastos is giuen to the Emperours but also in the 27. of the Acts of the Apostles S. Luke saith that S. Paul was deliuered to a captaine spires sebastes of the band of Augustus Also likewise Act. 25. Festus saith that Paul had appealed to Sebaston that is to Augustus Now the words of S. Paul setting forth the man of sinne are cléerely fulfilled in the Pope who hath bin as all men know exalted so high aboue kings and Emperours that they held his stirrops when he went to horsebacke There hath béen none Lord ouer kings and Emperours but the Romane Bishop None exalted to that dignitie but the Italian Priest Pa. The Apostle saith all that is called God and therefore it is to bee vnderstood of God himselfe for is not he called God There is cause why the Pope should be aboue all the kings and Emperours that doth not proue him to be the man of sinne He hath that of right because he is Christs Vicar Pro. The Apostle doth vse this spéech to put difference betwéen in déed and that which is called God and hath but that high title and is not God in déede God is more then called God for he is very God indéed This thing is also manifest when the Apostle in the next words rising by degrées saith that hee sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God In this last and highest he doth but set him forth to chalenge to himselfe to bée equall with GOD. Where ye say it doth belong of right to the Pope to bee aboue all kings because he is the Vicar of Christ I will answer that anon in another matter Pa. I must let ye haue your saying there is no remedie but doth the Bishop of Rome then sit in the temple of God boasting himselfe that hee is God I marueile what glose ye can make to perswade the people that the Pope doth this Who euer can shew that the Bishop of Rome doth not take himselfe to be a man If he take himselfe to be a man doth he then boast himselfe to be God For shame leaue your slandering and finde some other to ascribe this name Antichrist vnto for to the holy father it doth not belong Pro. Ye must néeds let me haue my saying when it is so manifest truth that ye cannot tel which way to cauill against it The Bishop of Rome doth sit in the temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God Ye néede not maruell nor there néedeth no glosing to perswade the people in this poynt It is rather greatly to be wondred how men should bee so blinde as not to know this great monster séeing the holie Ghost doth so liuely paint him forth in his colours The man of sin must not be a forenner for the Apostle sheweth that he shuld haue his seate in the temple of God This cannot bee vnderstood of the materiall temple in Ierusalem for that was vtterly destroyed shortly after Christ But it is meant of the true temple of God which is his Church In this temple sitteth not the Turke nor yet the Iew or any Pagan doth here raigne but the Pope hath long time had his royall throne set vp in this temple No man can say the Turke or any of the forenamed is Antichrist for wee must not goe out of Christendome to séeke him but find him we must set vp in the very temple of God Al the Papists in the world shall neuer be able to shew any other in the church besides the Pope vnto whom they may apply this descriptiō Where hath there euer béen any in the temple of God which of necessitie is here takē for the church exalted aboue all that is called God beside the Bishop of Rome I pray God open the eyes of the ignorant people whom ye seduce that they may see Antichrist and forsake him Pa. O how you would triumph if yee had any great matter of your side when ye brag so much of nothing VVhat if I should tell ye that the Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe is not yet risen What can ye say must the Pope needes be he because he hath the highest seate in the Church Whē ye haue proued that he boasteth himselfe to bee God then ye shall say somewhat Pro. Where the word of God goeth directly against ye there ye make no account of it at all such bolde beasts yee are to call it nothing But what if ye should tell vs that Antichrist is not yet come alas poore foolish papist What if a Iew should tell vs that Christ is not yet come shall we beléeue him Wee know he is already come hath fulfilled all things which were written of him in the Prophets Shall we be so foolish with the Iewes as to wait for another Likewise what if a Papist tel vs that great Antichrist which the scripture doth speak of is not yet come shall we bee so mad when we see that the Romish Bishop and his clergy
onely law-giuer Thus ye would bleare the eyes of the ignorant to make them beléeue that the Pope doth make lawes as Moses did But I will shew a difference Moses gaue no lawes nor any of the Apostles but such as they receiued from GOD. They neuer challenged authoritie for to make any law contrary to any part of the word of God nor to abrogate any of the lawes of God For S. Paul saith Galath 1. that if he or an Angell frō heauen should preach any other Gospell then that he had preached let him be accursed Such was the authoritie of Gods worde that if either Paul or Moses or any other which brought it should alter adde to it or diminish the same he should be accursed And yet the Pope doth take power to make lawes contrary to the lawes of the word of God to dispense with the same to disanull what hee will and which is most blasphemous of all to affirme that the holie Scriptures haue no authoritie without him but are of themselues dead can haue no certaintie Is not this to make himselfe God or equall with God What is there which hath authoritie ouer Gods word but God Who doth not here espie the very hornes of the diuell péep vp and speake these things out of the mouth of his vicar Antichrist They do al forsake God and worship the beast which giue him this authoritie Pa. I will not denie but that he which doth set vp lawes contrary to Gods lawes maketh himselfe God euen as a subiect which taketh vpon him to make lawes and to refuse the lawes of the Prince maketh himselfe as it were a king But I say the Bishop of Rome doth not so for he hath the holie Ghost and cannot erre And so when he doth forgiue sinnes he doth no more then is warranted by the word and in very deede which ye take vpon ye to doe Pro. What should I stand to answere bare words wee know the Pope is not led by the holy Ghost but by the lying spirit of the diuel because he hath so flatly troden downe Gods word and brought in his owne lawes in stead of it I will not stand to recite particulars all the world may iudge And whereas ye say he doth not forgiue sins but as we doe take vpon vs that is but a shift which ye haue deuised for all that will may see whether this bee all one to pronounce remission of sins to the penitent which we do and to send forth pardōs whereby for ten shilling matter a man might not onely haue forgiuenes of his sins past but libertie for a good time after to commit many sinnes If this be not the man of sinne where shall we finde him Who doth take vpon him to bee God if he do not which for money will forgiue a man whatsoeuer he doth commit against God Shall a rotten stinking carrion thus blaspheme and men not espie that hee is the great Antichrist I haue now shewed yée how the Pope boasteth himself to be God but I dare not say you will recant Pa. When I see matter which may force me to recant I will do it but for ought that I see brought to the purpose to proue that which you promised there is cause rather why you should recant and renounce your errors and returne againe to the holy mother which is ready to receiue those that returne to her how vnkindly soeuer they haue behaued themselues toward her Pro. The diuelish strumpet is almost left desolate and therefore she laboureth to draw as many as she can and to entice them to her loue faire and foule tag and mag all are welcome none come amisse now Murtherers whoremasters whores bawdes drunkards and all such like if they will take her for their mother she is not ashamed to take them for her children and to make them partakers of her holinesse But let vs come againe to the matter Saint Paul in the same chapter sayth That Antichrist should come with lying signes and wonders and so is it also expressed in the Reuelation that the beast should that way seduce and deceiue the inhabitants of the earth If this be not fulfilled in the kingdome of the Pope how shall it euer bee fulfilled or where shall wee looke for it What hath béen all your outcries but myracles myracles Let a man reade your Legenda Aurea and festiuall and such other pure bookes what shall he finde but myracle vpon myracle and so true that if a man would lye for the whetstone hee may there store himselfe if hee will haue a whole bundle The people did beléeue them for why the Scripture saith 2. Thess 2. GOD should send them strong delusion to beléeue lyes I dare say boldly that although you Papists a great nūber of ye haue put on impudent and shamelesse faces to maintaine lyes yet there is not one of ye but wil blush if he should take vpon him to defend that stinking puddle of lyes and fained wonders which ye fed the common people withal A man may be ashamed to recite them least those which know not the matter should thinke he doth lie Pa. What way can you proue that the myracles of the Church were false and counterfeit Will you take vpon ye to condemne such things as were done long since If there bee some things written which might wel enough be left out is the Church to be charged with that which euery particular man doth There were abuses crept in which the Bishop himselfe did not know of Is it reason he should be blamed Pro. I thinke no wise man will doubt but that this is a sufficient proofe that your myracles were but iugling casts in the darke because ye had such store then haue none now alas there is as great néede now as euer there was And if there bee but one myracle left in your budget pull it forth and let vs see it that we may giue some credit vnto ye Nay your mother had no good counsell giuen her when she had such plentie to spend it so wastfully as she did and to kéepe none for a deare yeare I wisse a few of those great wonders which shée shewed in time past would now stand her in great stead Pa. Mocke on take your pleasure there is none to controule ye VVhat though there be neede at this time yet the world is vnworthie euen as Christ said to the Pharisies when they required a signe Matth. 19. This euill and adulterous generation seeketh a signe but there shall no signe be giuen them but the signe of Ionas the Prophet Euen so what reason is it that the holy mother should shew any wonders and myracles vnto you which are worse then the Pharisies Pro. Alacke good old mother she hath néede as much as euer she had to shew her cunning but the world is not worthie Although shée might winne great credit by it yet she had rather kéepe a good conscience And therefore
he is God is there any other there which beareth this likenes Peraduēture ye wil say this was fulfilled in some of the Emperors which would be taken for God Yea sir but there was none of the wicked Emperors which did sit in the tēple of God Neither was there any of them which did seduce the world by lying wonders Wée must find such an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings Emperors which sitteth in the Temple of God seduceth by myracles But perhaps he shall arise at Rome hereafter and is not yet come Surely then let vs neuer looke for him if we think there shal arise one at Rome which shall bee lifted vp higher then the Pope or doe more fained myracles and lying wonders then he hath Moreouer tell me this is there any man so simple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation Reuel 17. where the Angel doth shew the mistery of the woman which he calleth the great whore and of the beast which beareth her that wil not by by confesse that séeing Rome is that whore borne vp with the scarlet coloured beast with seuen heads the Pope also must néeds be Antichrist for he is one of the heads of the beast The heads of the beast being seuen are saith the Angel seuen Kings where should they reign At Rome Fiue saith he are fallen one is another is to come Seuen kinds of gouernmēts in Rome whereof it is wel knowen fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote One was thē standing which was the Empire And the seuenth or last should shortly follow Where is he that hath risen at Rome to be the seuenth last of these kings if it be not the Pope O ye foolish Papists haue ye come thus far as to cōfesse that Rome is Babylon which is the great whore so tel men where they must séek for Antichrist And wil ye denie the Pope to be the beast Why they be ioined together Shew vs some other vpon whō we may sée the brand which the scripture hath set vpon Antichrist We now by that which you haue granted and confessed must not looke for him elswhere but at Rome vntill ye can shew vs some other there we sée none so like him as the Popes holines If ye can shew any other put men out of doubt Pa. Doth the Scripture say that Antichrist should bee at that place which is called Babylon Where find ye any such thing It was called Babylon for the great wickednes of the citie not because Antichrist should reigne there Againe where yee take the interpretation of seuen heads to be seuen kings in Rome as you say seuen kinds of gouernment fiue were fallen one was which is the Empyre one was to come which say you must needs be the Pope for hee hath reigned in the last place Yea but ye sayd fiue were fallen to giue place to the sixt should not then the sixt also fall to giue place to the seuenth How then is your interpretation true seeing the Empire hath stood euer since Pro. Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel set forth the same Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe which he calleth the beast which all the world should wonder after and worship Doth he not set forth the whore sitting vpon the beast Is not the whore by you confessed to be Rome will ye haue the beast to beare her and not to be at the same place the beast that riseth out of the bottomles pit and killeth the saints Reuel 11. Where shal their bodies lie in the stréets doth he not say in the stréets of the great citie which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt afterward in the seuentéenth chapt he calleth it the great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth is it not all one beast which he speaketh of al one citie doth it not follow that where he shall kill there be shal raigne and as for the other thing which ye take exception against I confesse the Empire did still retaine the name and was not quite cast down neuertheles it was not indéede an empire when the Emperors themselues were brought downe so farre in subiection to the Pope as to haue him tread in their necke and to hold his stirrops Pa. If the Pope were Antichrist as you would make men beleeue then what became of the Church all that while when men beleeued in him when he raigned you confesse a thousand yeres or there about since the Bishop of Rome had the soueraignty Would God forsake his Church a thousand yeres or eight hundreth yeeres is it like that God which is so gracious and merciful would cast off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres and suffer to perish O how hard harted are you how vnreuerently minded against our ancestors how vnkind children so to iudge of the fathers let them beleeue ye that will ye be al heretikes I will keepe me to the ancient faith Pro. Now ye returne to your old fortresse againe yee suppose that ye haue some of those poore soules in hand which yee may seduce because they are ignorant Ye can lay forth this matter so pitifully among them that ye can make them euen wéepe again But when ye come among such as haue vnderstanding out of Gods word and know the state of the Church they laugh at your follie This is a great question what became of that Church we answere as the scripture telleth vs Reue. 17. the beast the dragon did persecute murther the seruants of God The whore of Babylon was drunken with the blood of the saints Reuel 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes God did neuer forsake his Church one day much lesse a thousand or 8. hundreth yéeres it doth not follow that because Antichrist was exalted in the church therefore the church was vtterly forsaken and destroied Although corruptions came into the church apace for the space of this 8. hundreth or a thousand yeres yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable estate nothing so corrupted as within these 5. or 6. hundreth yeres which space we may indéed ascribe to the reign of Antichrist and yet euen in this space he could neuer vtterly destroy the Church for the most gracious God did preserue that litle remnant which was his and none did perish but those which loued not the trueth and therfore God did send them strong delusion to beleeue lies None but those which worshipped the beast and wondered after the beast and receiued the marke of the beast whose names were not written in the booke of life We reuerence our godly fathers shew no vnkindnesse towards them Pa. I will deale with ye then vpon your owne confession ye grant that for the space of fiue or sixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned and the trueth suppressed Where was the Church for this space this is a long time will ye condemne all the world for the
wee condemne it and hate it more then you do And although ye goe about to abuse and wrest the scriptures against vs yet ye shall neuer bee able to driue any true Catholike from the right pure and deuout worship of God Pro. Will ye confesse if I proue that you are Idolaters that yours is the false Church and that ye are fallen away from the trueth that the Pope is Antichrist Pa. I must needes confesse that Idolaters are fallen from the trueth but where as ye make offer to proue that we commit Idolatrie I say still wee be the furthest frō it of all other And in this I think my selfe sufficiently armed to stand against all the heretikes in the world proue what ye can Pro. Al those which worship idols are condemned in the holy Scriptures to be idolaters But it seemeth you Papists doe not worship idols at least ye would beare men in hand ye doe not when as in very déede ye doe it in most shamefull maner Where hath it euer béene heard of that men haue more doted vpō stocks and stones then the Papists Wil ye stil then be past shame and say you hate idolatrie you are furthest from it of all other Pa. I say still and neede not be ashamed that it is the blindnesse of you heretikes which either cannot or will not see that ours is no Idolatrie This sin of Idolatrie is where they worship Idols wee haue images of the true God of the blessed Virgin of the Apostles and of other Saints wee haue no idols of feined and false Gods wee worship not the images themselues neither but the things which are by them represented Moreouer we doe not giue latria to the images of Saints but dulia which God in the scriptures doth neuer condemne I say therefore ye helpe vs when ye say we worship stocks and stones or that we worship any besides the true God You are the idolaters your selues Pro. You would faine purge and cléere your selues from idolatrie and therefore ye haue deuised these distinctions first ye would make a difference betwéene Idoll and Image yours are Images but not Idols Secondly ye shift the matter that ye do not worship the Images themselues but that which the Image doth put ye in minde of And last of all your déepe distinction betwéene latria which is worship which ye giue onely to God and dulia which is seruice which ye bestow vpon the Saints I will lay open how vaine these things are and yet how they be subtill to deceiue poore ignorant soules Pa. I know your answers well enough ye take vpon ye to defend that an Idoll and an Image are all one And so when it is said God made man after his owne Image yee may translate it after his owne Idoll It may be said of the picture image of the prince this is the princes Idoll Likewise if a painter paint an image of a dog ye may say this is an Idoll of a dog Ah Sirs this is ouer grosse ye shew by this what your skill is in other things Pro. Now must ye néeds win the spurres because wee say that Image and Idoll is all one sauing that the one is Greeke and the other Latin Ye say thē we must say God made man after his owne Idoll which were very grosse I confesse that in our tongue it were grosse indéed because the word Idoll is by common vse of spéech taken alwaies in euill part but in the Gréeke tongue it was not so But I will come néerer vnto ye to shew your deceitfull dealing in this shall wee desire a better iudge in this matter then the Hebrew tongue in the scriptures in which it is said that God made man after his owne image and in which there is much spoken of idols What if I proue that hee vseth the same word where hee speaketh of idols which he vseth where hee saith God made man after his owne image Will there then be such a difference Pa. When I see this then I will beleeue it before I will not the Scriptures do speake of images it may be there is the same word But you must proue it where hee doth speake it of those which were idols indeed of the heathen of false gods Pro. I wil shew where he speaketh of idols indéed which were worshipped by the heathē and proue that he vseth the same word The word in Moses is Tselem after which Adam was created Gen. 1. Now looke where hee speaketh to the children of Israel by Moses to command them to break down the idols of the heathen and ye shall finde the same word As Numb 33. He saith ye shall destroy Tsalme Massecotham that is their moulten images In the 2. booke of Kings chap. 11. it is said They went into the house of Baal and brake downe his images which he calleth by the same name By this it doth appeare that in the holy scriptures there is no such difference betwéene idol and image as the Papists would beare men in hand For these were idols by their owne confession which yet are set forth vnder that same word which Moses vseth for the likenes of God after which man was created Pa. All this doth proue nothing for wee doe grant that which ye haue said Because idols be also images although euery picture and image bee not an idol for an idol is an image which is worshipped and taken to be God Pro. It doth proue this for which I did alleage it that the same word is in that tongue vsed indifferently for the image of GOD and for the idols of the heathen But because ye say it doth proue nothing séeing idols be images although euery image is not by and by an idol vnlesse it be worshipped Let me demand this Is not that which is forbidden to bee made in the Scriptures an idoll Pa. I know no man which doth deny but that is an idoll which the Scriptures do forbid But you must go further then that for ye must proue that those which the Scripture doth forbid are but called images and so images and idols to be all one Pro. Ye say right for those which the scripture condemneth we must cōfesse to be idols then if I proue that the scripture doth condēne images it must néeds follow that they be idols I require no more for it is manifest that the Scripture doth forbid all images of God as in Deuterono 4. there is forbidden not onely Semel but also Temnuah and Tabnith And in Esay 40. Demuth Who will bee so mad as to deny but that here are images forbidden and therefore that images are idols Pa. I see no cause why I should not deny it for they were also idols because they were made to be worshipped Pro. I sée no cause why I may not estéeme you to be obstinatly blinded Because in these places which I haue cited he doth not onely speake of the true GOD but also the reasons which are set downe