a place of Scripture who should be judge D. T. answered there was no need here the case was plain especially if this Text was further compar'd with one in Deuteronomy and that if the Roman Church should make an Interpretation the sense of the words of that Interpretation would as much need a Key as the easie Text it self D. T. added that Christ's Church was not then throughly formed and that the Rule had some respect to the extraordinary state of those times in which it was not so proper to go to the ordinary Courts the Judges being unbelievers A Romanist not so well known by D. T. offered something in confutation of this but D. T. told him that if he would bring an Authentick interpretation out of some of his Church Books he would hear it But if not and at that he did not offer then he as a Romanist would say nothing to the purpose but argue as he says the Protestants do out of their own head At last Mr. P. and D. T. came to the Quotations again and then it was resolved that D. T. should write of this matter and of S. Ambrose S. Cyril and Justine Martyr c. to M. P. and receive his Answer and reply as often as there was just occasion given After this D. T. said to Mr. P. there was one thing remaining and fit to be said to him he had in a printed Paper promised not to tamper about Religion with the Protestant Boys who should come to the Savoy-School it had appeared that he tampered with Boys out of his care and would do so much more with those under it He said it did not follow because of his word which he would not break and that for this Boy he had done it in order to his everlasting Salvation D. T. answered that being your Principle that all out of your Communion are damned you being a Jesuite and a Papist must break your word in thaâ— Paper for the necessary good as you think of the Souls of the Boys especially you having hope of turning Boys under your Care. Mr. M. said to D. T. This reflects upon the King. Another more aloud this reflects upon the King and suggests that he will break his word and Mr. P. joyned in the Accusation but many of the Hearers cryed out against them and said it was a knavish trick Mr. M. was going away D. T. called to him and desired him not to run away with a false Tale. Mr. M. denied he said such words D. T. told him he did and that for his part he thought his Loyalty at this time to be more valuable than Mr. M's because he as a Son of the Church of England professed he would not rebel against the King notwithstanding he might be of another Religion whereas Mr. M. being of the same Religion could not so well separate Loyalty from Interest D. T. being concerned at this false and unworthy way of catching men did say to Mr. M. at the Door of the first Room that if he had persisted in this Trick he could not have forborn to have given him the name of Evidence Meredith Then D. T. desired Mr. P. and Mr. M. to go from the throng into the back Room and to talk a little where there was less heat and noise But Company follow'd thither too and there some things were repeated and some new things started about a Judge in Controversie about the Head of the Church about Berengarius but nothing was pursu'd Mr. M. took leave and just at the Door muttered something about Penal Laws Mr. P. was following and D. T. said to him that it was always his way to pity the people of differing Assemblies but that for such as his Order who had taught excluding and deposing Doctrines and brought in a foreign Jurisdiction it seemed fit to keep up some Laws against them Mr. P. deny'd that his Order taught any such Doctrines Mr. D. A. C. asked him what he thought of Suarez and Mariana M. P. asserted that the Pope had had a right of Jurisdiction here a thousand years and that D. T. ought not therefore to call it foreign D. T. said those were dangerous words soon after this Mr. P. took leave it being now late in the Evening D. T. staid a while and there was brought up to him out of the Shop the aforesaid Question of Mr. Meredith left with the Boy and written in the same hand with the few words which Mr. Meriton had begun to write upon the back of D. T 's Paper It was said to the Boy that he should have an Answer to that Paper if he came in the Morning to D. T. 'T was not thought fit by Mr. U. and his Wife that the Boy should come lest having been found to be so great and malicious a Lyar he should invent and spread some new Tale or other But Mrs. U. came her self and carried back a little Book in which an Answer to that Question was contain'd During the Conference the Son of Mr. J. a Roman came to a Constable and desir'd him to go to Mr. U's where the Father Mr. P. was in danger of being kill'd The Constable saw how little need there was for the Exercise of his Authority Next Morning came to Mr. U's the Roman who said if he was not in Orders he hoped to be so his pretended Errand was good Counsel to the Boy in Relation to his Master and Mistress who had complain'd that since he had been in this new way he had troubled the House mis-spent his time and become an intollerable Lyar and he pointed the Boy to a place or two of Scripture about Obedience but by and by the great design of his coming appeared for he ask'd the Boy if he was now satisfied in his Religion Both they and the Protestants knew that he was gone before and they had been told how much worse he was in his Morals since he had been tamper'd with and the Boy had owned to D. T. in his Closet that he had been often at Mass. And D. H. before this Conference had concluded him gone over and the Boy was already taught how to fence in this matter as may appear by his Letter to his Father September 20th upon his hearing the Contents of the Letter his Father had sent to Mrs. U. on September 17th she having given notice of the strange Alteration made in his Son. There came also a Woman to Mr. U's to be satisfi'd in these Questions whether there had not been a Conference there Whether there had not been five Ministers of the Church of England there against one Jesuite who put them all to silence whether Mr. U. and Mrs. U. were not stagger'd in their Religion upon this Conference Whether a Gentlewoman of the Church of England was not after the Conference fallen distracted And when she heard that there was but one Minister there and no putting of him to silence and no distraction and further Confirmation of Mr.
to assign the Holy Scriptures To which A. P. reply'd that there were c two things incumbent on the Doctor to prove 1. That the Books which he called the Scripture were truly such 2. That when so prov'd they were of themselves a sufficient Rule But to the second Point nothing was said To the first the Doctor replied that their Bible had been handed down from the Apostles A. P. desired to know by what Hands The Doctor answered by the Testimony of d all the World Turks Jews Gentiles and Christians But A. P. urging to know from what immediate Hands the Church of England had received them when she began to reform The Doctor answered From the Universal Church and that he meant by Universal Church all those e different Bodies who make up the whole Number of Christians Then A. P. demanded Whether those different Bodies of Christians made one true Church or no Or whether some one Part of them were so The Doctor tho much press'd would specify no Part which he acknowledged free from Corruption Upon that A. P. desired to know how the Doctor could make out that his Bible was the pure and uncorrupt Word of God if all those from whose Testimony he took it were corrupted and consequently false Witnesses and what Assurance he had f the sense of Holy Scripture being as he said depraved the Letter remained pure Here g a pleasant School-Master diverted the Auditory with a Picture as he said of the Blessed Trinity and offer'd it A. P. with wry Mouths and Antick Gestures But A. P. saying he saw no Reason why God appearing to Daniel under the Figure of an old Man might not be so painted provided one meant not to delineate him specie propriâ He return'd to the Doctor and press'd his forementioned Argument but the Schoolmaster continuing to give Diversion to the People and throw in impertinent Questions A. P. desired him to be silent saying he came not to dispute with a Buffoon but a Doctor which was ill taken Dr. T. read a Lesson of Charity upon that occasion endeavouring to prove that A. P. had violated the Holy-day And when Mr. M. said in A. P's Defence that h S. Paul had used as sharp Language in a like occasion The Doctor replied that if A. P. was St. Paul he might so do When the Doctor had done his i Harangue A. P. returned to his Argument and much importun'd the Doctor to make out how he was assured his Bible was the pure Word of God and not as full of Corruption and Falshood as he believed those to be from whom he received it Here the Doctor call'd k Mr. M. from the Window whither A. P. had desired him to retire that no Body might argue against the Doctor but himself and instead of answering the Difficulty began a private Parly with Mr. M. And l A. P. could never obtain any thing like a Satisfactory Answer to his Difficulty propos'd In the end he answer'd the calling the Authority of Scripture in question disposed to Atheism A. P. reply'd he believed it might in their Principle who having taken all Infallibility from the Church could assert none for the Scripture This Debate lasted upwards of 2 Hours when the Doctor threw in several By-questions about St. Peter's being at Rome m which when A. P. was ready to prove n the Doctor passed to the Real Presence and Transubstantion A. P. demanded of the Doctor whom he would be judg'd by not being able at this time to obtain any Answer to the first and chief Query The Doctor replied by the Universal Church A. P. demanded whether by the Universal Church now in being or by that which had been in the four first Centuries The Doctor said that of the four first Centuries A. P. asking how we should know the Judgment of those Times The Doctor answered by the Testimony of the Fathers then living Then A. P. naming several and proffering to begin with which the Doctor pleased o he desired to hear St. Ambrose A. P. thereupon read one out of his 4th Book de Sacramentis which the Doctor noted down and required A. P. to put his Hand to it which he refus'd for the present but said as soon as he had produced his whole Evidence he would then sign it But the Doctor plainly refused to hear any more saying that the rest would prove like that which he believed to be of a Spurious Author To which A. P. replied that if he doubted of that Work he would cite another of the same Author 's to the very same Intent of an unquestionable Work. But the Doctor refused absolutely to hear it And continued to press A. P. to subscribe He answered that he would when all his Witnesses were heard and with much ado after about 3 quarters of an hour after twenty endeavours he obliged the Doctor to hear of Justinus his Apology to Antoninus Pius p but that the Doctor would not note down or hear one word more which seeming unreasonable to Mr. M. he asked the Doctor using his own Instance whether or no if one should come to pay him a q a Sum of Mony and the first piece might appear somewhat dubious he would refuse the rest upon that account especially if the Party was content to change it in the very place Now this Paper it is which has made all the great Noise as though the Doctor having summ'd up the whole Discourse A. P. should refuse to sign what he had asserted In this Debate the Parties rising up the Doctor was pleased to say that r the Papists were by their Principles Breakers of their Word and proved against A. P. thus You believe yours to be the only saving Church but you are bound to save all you can therefore you are bound to break your Word given in your Paper of Rules of your Schools of not tampering with your Scholars in Matters of Religion A. P. replied that it was a very injurious Assertion and prov'd no more against him than his Majesty which he thus proved His Majesty believes his to be the only Saving Church but his Majesty being Head of his People is bound to endeavour to save them as much as A. P. to save his Scholars therefore according to the Doctor 's Argument his Majesty is bound to break his Word given to his People of not forcing their Consciences This Reflection was ill taken and A. P. said he was willing to believe the Doctor spake it not with any such Intention but added that it was ill done to vent such Propositions whence naturally and unavoidably ensued so bad Illations Then A. P. answered directly that no body was bound always to do all the good possible And that to teach gratis Learning with the Fear of God was very well done although one medled not with Religion and defied the Doctor to bring the Scholar where note that the Boy on whose account the Dispute was held was no Scholar that ever heard him touch a
so small a compass and that he believed Mr. P. would not justifie this way of reasoning before him and discoursing to the Boy out of a Place or two in the Scriptures and saying what he then thought proper dismiss'd him and advised his Master to send him into the Country to his Father who was reported to be a man of condition and judicious for he had observed a very odd temper in the Boy and a strange figure in his Countenance and had been told before by Mr. U. That since his having been tampered with and seduced his very countenance was altered he seemed often as if he were mop'd he was grown so gâ—â—at a Lyar that they knew not how to believe or employ him and so troublesom to the other servants by saying they were Damn'd and talking to them about Popery that he had made all the Family uneasie That very day the boy had been with D. T. he had the confidence to turn that about Luther and the Devil which was said by the Jesuit upon the said D. and to ascribe it to him saying that the D. had told him Luther left Mass at the instance of the Devil so that from thenceforth the Reformation proceeded upon the word of the Devil It was a little after Whitsontide last when this Fit began to take the Boy but it was not so observably violent till of late it seems Mrs. U. had written to his Father before D. T. had seen J. S. His Master after having been with D. T. carried the Boy to Dr. Horneck still hoping to work good upon him but his perverseness was so apparent to D. H. notwithstanding all the things of moment he said that he perceived him gone past present Cure. Great boast was made in the Neighbourhood about Mr. P. and odds were offered that D. T. would not meet him though there was little reason for that boasting few days having passed since D. T. and M. L. in vain expected the coming of two Priests at a Place and Time mutually appointed Mr. U. said he was very certain the Dr. would come and the Party of Mr. P. having named a Place and Hour Mr. U. came to D. T. to give him notice of what was done D. T. assured him he would meet tho 't was inconvenient a Friend from beyond Sea being just come to him and it being to no purpose as to the Boy and it serving cunning people with a colour for saying that upon what he heard He was converted Mr. U. granted all this but added that if Mr. P. were not met it would be said it was because none dare meet him and upon that motive how inconsiderable soever to men of sound sense the matter turn'd and 't was agreed on all sides that there should be little Company and no Noise and on one side Mr. P. his Friend and the Boy and on the other D. T. Mr. U. and his Wife This being agreed D. T. when the hour came broke away abruptly from two Eminent Divines D. S. and W. W. without so much as letting them know about what business he was going and he went to the place alone without either Friend or Servant He had not been there many Minutes before Mr. P. came in with nine or ten after him several of his Boys pressing at the door but being hindred from entring D. T. does not say that Mr. P. brought them all How many Priests there were among these who came first D. T. could not tell but he espied in the room which was of a sudden crowded with people Mr. Meredith whom he look'd upon as next to a Priest a Priest in a yellow Peruke one who owned that if he was not in Orders he hop'd to be so one from the Lady S. I's of L. A. whom he supposeth to be a Priest and one in a plain Band who as was said came with him It was not so very easie in the Crowd to take full notice of these and how many there were more of such men he cannot tell nor does he say that they were all of Mr. P's bringing D. T. perceiving such a Company said to Mr. P. that this way seem'd not fair he himself having come without either Friend or Servant that he might not transgress the Agreement for the Privacy of the Conference The Master of the House excused himself saying That he had denied some very good Friends who desired to be there that he might keep to what was agreed Then Mr. P. was content to dismiss all besides a witness for himself and Mr. Meredith was propos'd Against Mr. Meredith D. T. made three Objections First that he having received from C. O. a Copy of a Conference betwixt the D. of S. P. and Mr. G. given him by Mr. Meredith and having show'd it to the said D. of S. P. the D. had assured him the said D. T. That it was not a true Copy and that a material thing about the present Greek Church was left out Mr. M. referred to what was printed upon that occasion The Second Objection made by D. T. was that Mr. M. had in a Coffee house pitied the slate of St. Martins as being a very great Parish under one Man and capable of maintaining Thirty Fryars D. T. said further That such an intermedler was not a proper Witness And afterwards in another Room That he should not count his Fryars before they were hatch'd Mr. M. replied calmly That he had said this with relation to the greatness of the Parishes in the Suburbs and not with particular regard to D. T. or St. Martins and that tho he nam'd the Parish he was a stranger to D. T. and had not reflected upon him The Third Objection was taken from Mr. M's having forsaken the Church of England such being more partial and possessed with a spirit of fiercer bigottry than those who were Romanists from the beginning Mr. M. then answered He was the better judg because he had known both Churches D. T. answered then that he went away young from our Church from which no man who well understands it could depart upon true Principles Mr. M. and D. T. revived this discourse in another Room afterwards and D. T. saying Mr. M. was turn'd in Spain where the people had no Bibles Mr. M. replied That they carried over with them a very good Library of Books After these Exceptions taken at Mr. M as a Witness D. T. perceiving it next to impossible to clear the Room and not being willing to give occasion to the insulting of any weak people by going away call'd Mr. Meredith to him and placed himself betwixt Mr. P. and Mr. Meredith Then Mr. P. spake first about Pen and Ink and an Amanuensis but D. T. having brought no person with him and the Crowd pressing Mr. P. began a Verbal Conference by saying the Protestants had no Bible and desiring D. T. to prove they had one and asking him how and whence they had it and what was their Rule of Faith. And
first Christians received the Canon of the old Testament Mr. M. catch'd at the words and said D. T. builds his Faith on Jews D. T. answered That that was not fair and that he should take his words in their coherence and make the best of them He continued and said That by this way of Universal Consent we were by way of external inducement as sure of this Books being the Bible as of Cicero's Offices being his Book Mr. M. said we were not infallibly sure of that D. T. added That the Consent of the World removed all doubt and that for the Holy Bible when men came to consider the Prophesies and their Events the Characters of Christ the History of Christ and things in those Books most worthy of God and use of pious means in humility of Soul they had further assurance begotten in them Mr. M. asked D. T. how he proved that inward sense D. T. said it could satisfie the persons themselves Then Mr. P. began again to ask Questions about the Bible How from what Churches Copies c. we had received it It had been no difficult matter to have perplexed him by asking from what Copy of the O. T. St. Peter had what Copy of the New he gave to Linus and he to the rest and where and by whom Linus was ordained and in what form c. but he only ask'd him upon what motive he believed Infallibly that St. Peter was ever at Rome seeing the Scripture had not said it Mr. P. said all the world knew that D. T. ask'd him whether all the world were good witnesses for this and not for the Bible Then Mr. P. said something of Thou art Peter and upon Thee will I build my Church D. T. said that he made no distinction between the masculine and feminine Gender and that the Text ran not upon thee Peter or this Peter but upon this Rock 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Feminine tho admitting that our Saviour did build upon him for by him he opened the Kingdom of the Gospel to the Jews at Jerusalem and to the Gentiles at Cesarea yet seeing there were Twelve Foundations Christ promising that he should be one did not exclude the other Eleven Hereabouts upon Mr. P's citing this place and that other Hear the Church c. and D T. desiring to fix upon something and opening an English Bible and Mr P. denying it to be the Bible and D. T. desiring to send for a Greek Testament one was produced by the Company but not used Mr. P. saying he would allow the Translation of the places to be true Mrs. R. in this talk about St. Peter being nigh Mr. P. said softly 't was St. Peters Confession on which Christ built his Church Hereabouts also Mr. P. spake about a Church at Rome spoken of by St. Paul and D. T. taking up the Bible and desiring to show how that matter stood was not permitted after three or four offers For Mr. P. turned all off by general discourse about the Bible and Rule of Faith and began again to ask Questions and to say that the Greeks of whom D. T. spake were all Lyars being Hereticks and that the Catholicks meaning Romans were said by him to be a corrupt Church and that therefore the Protestants depended upon Lyars for their Bible Here first began a strife about the word Catholick and of the Popes being the Catholick Bishops and D. T. asking Mr. P. whether the Ancient Bishops of other Sees did not stile themselves the Catholick Bishops of this and the other place Mr. P. yielded it and this word-bate ended Then D. T. in Answer to his Argument said to this effect First That the Greeks were not all Lyars and Hereticks and that the Missionaries had Misrepresented them Secondly That when all the World of all Ages conspired in a testimony about a book or such a City as Rome or Jerusalem tho some might be ill men and in some particulars Lyars yet we could not believe them Lyars in their Universal Consent because they could never be in a Confederacy to vend such a Lye. Thirdly That tho we took in part the Testimony of the Roman Church yet from her Authority the S. S. could not be prov'd because she went about to prove her Being and Authority out of the Scriptures and therefore could not do it till it was first proved that the Scriptures were the Word of God and the places cited were infallibly proved to carry that sense which the Romanists put upon them D. T. remembers not that any thing was said to the two last but upon the first Mr. P. charged him with joining with the Greeks in the Herefie of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father by the Son Mr. D. A. C. not known before to D. T. interposed and said That that was a dispute about Phrases and that they were agreed in sense And when Mr. P. wondred at that saying and had said there would in a fortnights time come forth a Book which should sufficiently show what the Greek Church was D. T. referred him to Father Simons Book called Histoire Critique de la Creance c. des Nations du Levant published three years ago in which that Learned Romanist show'd how the Missionaries had slandered the Greek Church and made those Hereticks who were not so and raised a dust about words when they agreed in meaning Mr. P. did not own his knowledg of this Book Since the Conference D. T. hath seen a Second Book upon the like Argument lately published by the said Learned French man and he perceives by it that as times Change men can do so too Here abouts D. T. offer'd to fix upon something and to speak to the Text cited by M. P. viz. Hear the Church but Mr. P. did not suffer it for some time but said The Church was a City on a Hill and always visible and ask'd Where such a Church as ours was visible in all Ages And how and where c. And clap'd his Hand with great force upon the Table and a while after said If he could not shew the visibility of his Church and we could that of ours he would be hang'd D. T. when Mr. P. beat the Table said smiling Sir I would not by any means come under your Ferula Mr. P. replied very calmly I use none D. T. does think that he ought to have spared those words as seeming to reflect upon that Profession which he very much Honours as one of the most useful in the World As likewise those used by him upon Mr. P's talking of being hang'd it being somewhat severe But in heat of talk D. T. did say Mr. P. you use a very scurvy word and you put me in mind of a saying of the late Lord Faulkland You are apt to hang and to damn but if they whom you hang were no more hang'd than they who you damn were damn'd few men would fear either your hanging or your damning After this there
was more talk about the visibility of the Church and D. T. said to this purpose The History of this matter is beyond both the Purse and the Capacity of the People A great many Pounds and Books are required A Priest or Candidate said 'T is in less room and was pulling out I think a little Book It sufficeth the People that they have heard Christ's Promise That there shall be a Society of men professing Christianity to the end of the World That they believe Christ will make good his word and that they find among us such Doctrine and Rules of Life as are in the Bible That the Greeks have always had Churches that among the Latins we have Catalogues of Witnesses against Romish Errors That a True Church may though not as such have many Corruptions And that the present Corruptions in the Roman Church were not formerly made Articles of Faith. That we had the True Faith before any Mission came from Rome That S. Gregories Faith was not that which Rome now teaches That here the Synods of the Second of Nice and Trent could not prevail That a Doctrine contrary to Transubstantiation had been taught in the Saxon Church and that he would prove such things as these out of their own Writers Mr. M. ask'd what Writers D. T. answer'd Beda and such Historians as Hoveden c. D. T. said moreover to Mr. P. asking after a distinct Church before Luther That he would shew him Christians in Bohemia making the Bible their Rule and protesting against the Errors of Rome And ask'd him If he should shew him out of Aeneas Sylvius Mr. P. did not desire it nor seem to know what Book that was Mr. M. had some while before ask'd D. T. who had said That we find the Bible which we now have quoted by the Ancient Fathers How he came to know they were Fathers To which Question he thought an Answer in that Place a condesension to an impertinence Hereabouts I think Mr. P. introduced a short Discourse about Transubstantiation and when D. T. had said as before that that manner of the Breads becoming Christ's Body was invented by Paschasius Radbertus M. P. in warm manner said What talk you of Paschasius Radbertus It was decreed in the Great General Council of Lateran where there were all the Patriarchs D. T. perceiving him to mistake so much in History and likewise err in time nigh Four hundred years for Paschasius flourished according to Bellarmin in the year 821. and that Lateran Council was held Ann. 1215. He turn'd to Mr. M. and said Why do you bring a man who has not common skill in History And then turning to Mr. P. he ask'd him Under what Pope that Council was held And his Memory did not serve him to tell Then Mr. D. A. C. addressing himself to him having a Breviary in his Hand in which the Trinity was pictur'd said Sir I can inform you under what Pope that Council was held 't was held under Innocent the Third Mr. P. being moved either by his Answer or his Book or Picture or all called him Buffoon D. T. then told Mr. P. he had transgressed against part of the Office of that day of St. Michael in which these words of St. Jude were read Michael the Arch-angel disputing with the Devil about the Body of Moses would not bring against him a railing Accusation but said The Lord rebuke thee And further D. T. ask'd him If all the Patriarchs were there in person or not Mr. P. replied By their Legats D. T. ask'd him Whether he had seen Father Walsh's late Book which contradicted what he said Mr. P. answered that Father Walsh was not his Pope Some of the words of Father Walsh the Franciscan are these There were not above 414 Bishops in the whole and none of all other than a Member of the Latin Church those very Two Patriarchs he means those of Hierusalem and Constantinople being themselves Latins and consequently not one of the Greek Church or of any other part or Church of the World among them By this time Mr. P. had produced a Breviary a written Collection of Quotations and Two large sheets of Quotations printed and would go to the Fathers D. T. desired first to speak to his Citation Hear the Church but still being denied he was contented to hear what he would alledge out of the Fathers with this Caution That he would not take them either for his infallible Judges or Rule but that seeing he had them on the side of his Church he would not part with them He began with his Breviary and read out of it part of that which is in the Margent construing it into English And the Sum of it was That before Consecration it was Bread but after it the Flesh of Christ And that Christ whose Word made things begin to be which were not before could much more bring it to pass that they should be what they were and yet changed into another thing which shews the opinion of the Author to have been that it was Bread and Christ's Body too if from this place we may find out his mind And then he nam'd S. Cyril's Catechism and then Justin Martyr and was going on to read many more Citations out of the printed Sheets entituled Speculum Ecclesiasticum but call'd it seems by their Hawkers The Soldiers Paper of which Title D. T. being ignorant his Man could not till Wednesday procure him a Copy of them D. T. Propos'd the fixing upon something after so long and noisie a rambling and call'd for Pen Ink and Paper and said he would begin with S. Ambrose and then go on to S. Cyril and J. Martyr in the order of Mr. P. and answering those Quotations there at that time he would afterwards as they agreed go on to the rest Mr. P. would go on and read further and did it so often out of those two Sheets repeating the names Justin Martyr Irenaeus c. that D. T. provoked with what he thought an unreasonable digression call'd the Papers his Ballads and said he might give them for Kites to his Boys which words were too light and he repents him of using them At last D. T. took the Pen and wrote down an Assertion to this effect That that was a spurious and late Book and none of S. Ambrose 's and that he would show it to be such Then he desir'd Mr. P. to underwrite that D. T. could not do what he there undertook M. P. refus'd and taking a Pen began to write his name to his Quotations in the printed Sheets but did not write as I think all his name there After which Mr. M. took Pen and D. T. delivering him the Paper he had sign'd in order to a regular proceeding he began to write the first words of these Questions Whether God Almighty hath left us any Guide or Guides to direct us in the Interpretation of Scripture in things necessary to Salvation Whether he hath
left every one to his own understanding in such Interpretation without obliging him to submit his judgment to any others D. T. interrupted him and said he was drawing them away from their point And upon this occasion M. M. and D. T. talk'd a little while about a Guide in Controversie and D. T. did tell him in short That a Man after using all Christian means and the help of all Ministerial Guides possible must at last judge for himself and that this was not to run on his own head as also that our People could know the Voice of our Church it being in their own Language but not so readily the Voice of the Church of Rome it being in an unknown Tongue for the true Interpretation of which the unlearned depended upon the particular Priest that instructed them Then D. T. and Mr. P. came again to the Quotations and D. T. waved for a time that out of S. Ambrose in relation to which he us'd a word somewhat too sharp saying Mr. P. falsified instead of saying he had quoted a spurious Author So they came to S. Cyril's Catechism to which D. T. said He knew the place Mr. P. meant and that it was answered nigh twelve Years ago at the end of the Conference betwixt some Gentlemen of the Church of Rome and Dr. Stillingfleet and D. Burnet Mr. P. said That Conference as written by D. St. and D. B. was answered and that he would give D. T. the Answer Something was said to Mr. M. about that Conference which needs not as I imagine to be here repeated After this D. T. desir'd Mr. P. to read out of his printed Paper the place out of Justin Martyr which he did The words were these S. Justin Mart. in Apologiâ Antonio Pio Imperatori pro Christianis oblatâ Now this Food saith he amongst us is called the Eucharist which it is lawful for none to partake of but those who believe our Doctrine to be true c. For we do not receive this as common Bread or common Drink but as the Word of God Jesus Christ our Redeemer being made Man had both Flesh and Blood for the sake of our Salvation Just so are we taught that That Food over which Thanks are given by Prayers in his own Words and whereby our Blood and Flesh are by a change nourish'd is the Flesh and Blood of the Incarnate Jesus For the Apostles in the Commentaries written by them called the Gospels have recorded that Jesus so commanded them D. T. answered That those words prov'd the Bread to remain Bread because it nourish'd the Body and was call'd Bread after Consecration and that they did not at all establish the Roman Article of Transubstantiation Mr. P. answered He brought it for the proof of the Real Presence D. T. reply'd A Lutheran held that yet would not be of their Communion He then asked D. T. what his opinion was of the Real Presence He answered He would defend the true Sense of his Church even in those mistaken words in the Catechism The Body and Blood of Christ are verily and indeed taken and received by the Faithful in the Lord's Supper One in the Crowd said not very loud Hold him to that I think here was further talk about the Roman Corporeal Presence And Mr. D. A. C. ask'd Mr. P. what kind of Philosophy that was which maintain'd that Accidents subsisted without substances He said 't was true Philosophy D. T. ask'd whether it was true Philosophy to say there was whiteness without a white thing and breaking without a thing broken and the body of a Man without the dimensions and figure of such a body It was answer'd God could do this It was reply'd there was no need no promise supposing God could do it Mr. D. A. C. said then or afterwards in the next Room that God could not do what was a contradiction it being an imperfection Mr. P. continued the discourse and said we accused them of Idolatry whereas they worshipped not the Bread but Christ under it To which D. T. answered that he also ador'd Christ when he took the Sacrament but not that substance which they said was under the shew of Bread and that if it proved to be Bread it was a Creature and the worship of it would be the worship of a Creature adding that Costerus the Jesuit owned if it should prove to be Bread the worship of it would be worse Idolatry than that of the Laplanders who worshipped a red Cloth. Mr. P. reply'd Mr. Stillingfleet had cited that place D. T. rejoyn'd that it was rightly cited for he had read it in Costerus Mr. P. was silent Mr. P. here asserted that the Bread was annihilated and being shown by D. T. that his Opinion was contrary both to truth and his own Church he salv'd it by saying 't was annihilated so far as it was Bread. About this time as I think Mr. Meredith removed and went to a Window and Mr. D. A. C. had there some discourse with him And there was other occasional talk with a Roman by M. S. about the Cup in the Sacrament the Roman saying 't was taken away for fear of being spilt About this time also as I think Mr. P. was desir'd to stick to something particularly to the place of Scripture long ago cited by him If he will not hear the Church and he was asked by D. T. where the place was He could not tell At which some of the people upbraiding Mr. P. Mr. M. asked D. T. if he could tell Chapter and Verse throughout the Bible D. T. answered he would by no means pretend to it But if he cited a place as a proof of a Fundamental point he would first know where it was that by the Antecedents and Consequents he might be the better assured of the sense of it After which D. T. turned to the place in S. Matthew the 18th and read it out of the English Bible and ask'd if the Translation were faulty Mr. P. would not say it was Then D. T. explain'd the sense of the place as meant of Trespasses and not Articles of Faith and said to a very honest Gentleman whom he espy'd not far from him 't is as if it should be said to you by one to whom you owe any thing though pardon me the Obligation is on the other side Sir I come privately to you pray be just to me You say you will not Then he comes with a Friend and says Pray do me right and the matter shall go no farther you say you will not Then he puts you into the Ecclesiastical Court supposing it proper for their cognisance you will not stand to their sentence Then you are Excommunicated and treated as such a One. What a consequence from hence is this Therefore the Roman Church is to be heard as an infallible Guide in matters of Faith Mr. M. said being returned from the other part of the Room when there is a controversie about the meaning of