a long time before that happened Cl. I am sorry to hear you say so Master because there are some ill Men in the Parish who if this be once known will clamour against you as if you were a Man of no Conscience in that altho you knew your self to be no Minister you have officiated as one and altho you knew the Church of England to be in the wrong yet you instructed all your People to live and die in the Communion of it Mr. G. Whatever I may have done heretofore I intend to do so no longer Cl. Shall we then lose you Sir presently Mr. G. I do not intend to officiate any longer amongst you but I will send you a very good Curat Cl. And take the Profits your self as you did formerly Mr. G. Ay John Why should I not Cl. O Master it would be better to resign your Living for if he be satisfied in his Mind will those ill Men say that he is no Minister why does he pretend to take care of our Souls Nay if he thinks no Man can be saved in the Communion of the Church of England and therefore has himself left it what a wicked thing is it for him to contribute still to our being educated in the same Errors and to take Mony for deceiving us by his Curat after the same manner as he for several Years has deceived us himself Excuse my Boldness Master I only tell you what Mr. G. and Mr. H. who never loved you heartily will say of you Mr. G. You know John I always liked your freedom Mr. G. and Mr. H. may say what they please but perhaps it will not be long before I return to my Cure my self Cl. To tell you the Truth Master the whole Parish is very much against Popery but if they must have a Popish Minister I am very confident that the generality of them would rather have you with whom they are acquainted than any Stranger whatsoever Mr. G. I am much beholden to them Pray remember me to Esq F. and to every body else Farewell John. Cl. Farewell Master Second Dialogue Betwixt Esq F. and Mr. G. Esq F. PArson Father Lay-Brother What shall I call you You are welcome home Indeed you have served us a fine trick to desert us when we stand in most need of you Mr. G. Sir I am your most humble Servant Pray how does your Lady and the rest of your good Family Esq F. We are all God be thanked in good Health but not a little concerned to hear that our Spiritual Pastor is become a Wanderer Mr. G. That Name rather belonged to me before my return to my true Mother who with open Arms has been pleased to receive her truly penitent Prodigal Son. Esq F. She is very kind to Prodigals for to my knowledg she has received with open Arms many of that Character but I do not think that Name to belong to thee unless upon the account of Conscience and of that I fear thou hast been as Prodigal as the best of them all Mr. G. However prodigal I may seem to be of it nothing but Conscience could have caused this Change in me I should never have forsaken the Communion of the Church of England if I could with a safe Conscience have lived in it Esq F. I am asham'd to hear thee talk of Conscience Was it Conscience for thee to educate us and our Children for several Years according to the Rules of that Church in whose Communion thou didst not believe either us or thy self to be safe Or is it now Conscience in Thee to receive 120 l. per Annum and to barter with some young Fellow for 30 l. to do that among us which thou believest to be a Sin in him and what will help to keep us still in a state of Damnation Mr. G. My Clerk told me indeed that I must expect to be severely censured by some of the Parish but I did hope to have met with better Usage from Esq F. Esq F. What honest Man can forbear to be a little concerned when he sees such doings amongst those who pretend to teach others their Duty Mr. G. The Apostles themselves were reviled and a many ill things were reported of them and I ought not to expect to fare otherwise who am gone over to a persecuted Church Esq F. This is meer Cant as thou very well knowst But I would have Thee take care lest thy Conversion prove not the occasion of a sort of lesser Persecution even from those of thy own Religion For to live in the Communion of one Church and to be all the while of another is so scandalous a Practice that it deserves a seven Year's Mortification and were I to be thy Confessor I would swinge you with a vengeance before I gave you Absolution Pray tell me one thing Have you received Orders from the Church of Rome or not Mr. G. I have not Esq F. Nor will be permitted I suppose in haste before you have made some better Satisfaction to the Church for the Scandal you have given it by your double-dealing Let us see you set out a Narrative of your Conversion with a cloud of Witnesses to justify it Let us see you answer some of those troublesome Papers which the Hereticks at London daily set forth and then perhaps you shall be put into a Capacity of injoying a Living not your own for that is Meat for your Masters but some smaller one of 30 or 40 l. per An. which is a good Competency for one that durst not declare till t'other day who must not expect to feed upon such Delicacies as belong only to those who have deserved well all their Life-time in the Service of the Catholick Cause Mr. G. What I have done has not been with a prospect of any present Advantage It is my greatest Reward and Comfort that I am in the right way to Heaven and I hope that it will not be long before your self and others are perswaded to forsake their Errors as I have done Esq F. You must then produce better Arguments than the World has yet seen for certainly no Cause was ever more bafled than yours of late has been Mr. G. I wonder why you should say so since it is built upon an infallible Foundation Whilst the Reformation relies wholly upon the uncertain Reasonings of every particular Person and gives liberty to every one to believe what he pleases Esq F. What you call an infallible Foundation has been sufficiently shown to be but a sandy one But what you mean by the uncertain Reasonings of every particular Person and by giving leave to believe what a Man pleases I do not well understand Mr. G. My meaning in short is this That the Rule of Faith of the Reformation being Scripture as each Person of sound Judgment in the Church understands it whatever any particular Person judgeth to be the meaning of Scripture will be to him his Rule of Faith and therefore since
difference betwixt the Papists and the Reformers in this case is That the former believe their Doctrines to be true upon the Authority of the Church the latter because they judg them to be agreeable to Scriptures He avers in his Conclusion That according to the Principles of the Reformation no Doctrine or Tenet whatsoever can be wicked or blasphemous but that all are sacred and solid Judgments and reflects very sharply upon Dr. Stil for making Jupiter to be the Supreme God. Esq F. He is very witty upon the Doctor and would fain perswade him to turn Pagan and I believe if the Doctor would be ruled by him he could teach him how to do it without ever turning from being a Christian But since you have given a brief account of this Book pray let us reckon what the whole thereof amounts to As far as I can perceive the sum of all is no more than this That several of the Reformers have changed from one thing to another and that some of them have held most gross and scandalous Tenets and therefore since every man is bound to follow his own Judgment he may according to the Principles of the Reformation lawfully embrace any Opinion or Doctrine whatsoever Mr. G. That is indeed the Sum of what he has said and to what the Reformation will never be able to give any satisfactory answer Esq F. Be not too hasty good Sir in your Inferences Because men are of different opinions and will be so as long as the World endures does it therefore follow that every one allows all opinions lawful and that it is the same thing what opinion a man holds Mr. G. Any man would think so since they allow it to be lawful to change their opinions as oft as they in their own judgments shall think it reasonable so to do and every man believes all the while his opinion to be true Esq F. Does every one who believes his opinion to be true believe the opinion of others which is contrary thereunto to be true also Mr. G. By no means for as this Author tells you p. 2. Each particular Congregation constrains as much as it can all people to believe its own Tenets Protestancy would have us all be Protestants and would root Lutherans out of the World as well as Popery Lutherans would if they could draw all to their own net Presbytery esteems it self to be the best of all and would crush Protestancy if it could but that if we look upon the whole body of the Reformation as it includes all Reformed Congregations distinct from Popery there is a holy extension of Spirit and Liberty for to be either Lutherans Presbyterians Protestants and any thing but Popery Esq F. Those words and what follows make a certain sound in a mans ears but I do not perceive any great matter to be in them They rather imply a Contradiction than any thing else For if the several parts of the Reformation believe their own opinions to be true and would have all others to embrace them how can the whole Body which consists of the parts be truly said to allow a liberty of believing what every man pleaseth They may not only allow a liberty but may assert it to be necessary that every one should follow his own judgment although he be never so much mistaken But where do they allow it to be an indifferent thing whether he be mistaken or no Mr. G. What think you of the Synod of Charenton in France held about the year 1634 which expresly says that for your Salvation it is all alike whether you be a Calvinist Lutheran or of any other Congregation Esq F. To cut you short in this matter It is not to be supposed that I who am a Layman should understand what Synods have determin'd or what are the Opinions of particular Learned men in these and such like cases and therefore cannot tell whether this Author has rightly represented matters or no. Mr. G. Why should you think otherwise Esq F. Because there are some people in the World who give themselves a great liberty of representing things either truly or falsly as they judg it to be most expedient for their present purpose Mr. G. Why do you suppose this Author to have done so Esq F. He may have done so for ought that I can tell but I do not suppose that he has but rather chuse to allow all his Representations to be true and yet I cannot see what other effect his Book can have upon the mind of any judicious man than the giving him some little sensual pleasure in the reading of it Mr. G. It has had good effect amongst some people and a certain man of Authority in a certain University publickly owns himself in all companies to have been converted by it Esq F. Every man in every place of Authority there is not always the wisest or the honestest man in the University but whatever your certain man may say I am of opinion That if this Book makes no more Converts any where else than 't is likely to make in an Vniversity there has been no small pains taken to little purpose Mr. G. You will allow I suppose that this Author may have said enough to convince any man in the University or out of it of the absurd Opinions of several Reformers Esq F. He may do that indeed if all the Stories which he tells are true But how do these mens Errors concern me or what will it avail to perswade me to relinquish my Opinion which is the great design of this Book that others are or have been mistaken My Business is to to enquire Whether the Terms of that Communion to which I belong are just and equitable and since God be thanked I find them to be so I do not intend to forsake that Communion because others are not or have not been of my mind Mr. G. But the Synod of Charenton tells you that you may if you please Esq F. I am not certain whether the Synod of Charenton tells me so or no but if it does it will not weigh at all with me since the Church of England tells me no such thing but having prescribed such terms of Communion as are Just and Orthodox declares those Members to be guilty of Schism which depart from her Mr. G. She would I know arbitrarily impose her Rules and Interpretations of Scripture upon her Members and what is this else but a Spice of Popery for which she nevertheless pretends to have so great an aversation Esq F. This indeed your Author objects several times and if it be a Spice of Popery I heartily wish that Popery had nothing worse in it but you are both under a great mistake to fancy any agreement betwixt Popery and the Church of England in this matter for Popery requires an intire Submission without any previous Tryal or Examination you must believe and practice what the Church prescribes because she requires it Whereas the
LICENSED March 16. 1686. SOME DIALOGUES between Mr. G. and others WITH REFLECTIONS Upon a Book called PAX VOBIS LONDON Printed for Randall Taylor near Stationers-Hall 1687. THE PREFACE IN these following Dialogues I have not pretended to inquire whether the Author of Pax Vobis has in his Dialogues fairly represented those of the Reformation being resolved to see where the mighty strength of that piece of Reasoning lay upon supposition that all the Sayings and Matters of Fact which he charges upon Protestants were just as he has reported them I fancy it will come into some bodies head or other to take a little pains about that But be it so or not I am apt to think it will be allowed by every unprejudiced Person That a sufficient Reply is here given to the great design and business of that Book and that for the future it is not likely to impose upon any who are not very weak in their Understandings or something that is much worse As to the different Opinions amongst those of the Reformation it cannot be more objected against us by our Adversaries than it is lamented amongst our selves but we cannot but wonder to hear them make that an Objection against us of which it is so manifest themselves have been so great a Cause We are much obliged to them for their being so sollicitous to render us less liable to Mistakes than according to our own Principles it seems we are and are very ready to embrace any Directions which may be helpful to us in our Inquiries after Truth but we think they take a most preposterous way to bring us to the knowledg thereof who because we and others may be deceived go about to perswade us that we shall always necessarily be so unless we submit to the Direction of such Guides which without giving us any assurance of what they pretend that they neither will nor can deceive us they are pleased to recommend unto us As if because among those who walk through London-Streets in the day-time some happen to stumble others to fall into the dirt others to lose their way that therefore it is the most prudent course which any Man can take to come out in the Night and according to the Direction of those who confidently assure him that they will bring him safe to his Journeys end having put his Neck into an Halier to suffer himself to be drag'd through thick and thin until he is almost choaked and instead of being brought to the place whither he designed to go finds himself at last thrown into a Ditch with his Pockets pick'd None can be more ready than we should be to submit to the Guidance of an infallible Directer did we know where to find him but of this we despair especially since one of the best Arguments to perswade us to inquire after him is nothing else but an Objection against Human Nature and a Reflection upon God Almighty for having made us such Creatures as we find our selves to be Because some in the use of their Reason are and may be deceived that therefore all must is a Consequence which any one might be apt to think would seem ridiculous to all Mankind And therefore it is easie to guess of what Spirit and Temper they are who by such weak Motives are tempted to leave our Communion Especially since we cannot but take notice that even amongst those whose Conversations to our great grief have not discovered that prevailing Sense of Religion which might be expected from Men professing the pure and sincere Doctrine of Christianity there are but very few who by much more powerful Arguments have been prevailed with to forsake it Who the Author of Pax Vobis is we are not inquisitive to know but some are inclinable to believe him a Convert both from his being so well acquainted with the Scripture and from the profane use which he now thinks fit to make of it To apply these Stand fast in the Liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free Gal. 5.1 Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty 2 Cor. 3.17 In my Father's House are many Mansions Joh. 14.2 and such like places after such a manner as to make them import a Liberty given by Christ to believe and act as we please is an excellent way to ridicule the Bible And the Church of R. does very well to forbid the free use thereof if they of her Communion are so apt to abuse it as this Author has done The Controversie between us and our Adversaries has been hitherto managed with as little Reflection as the Cause would bear but if in these Dialogues we do not behave our selves so very gravely towards them as we have done formerly they who gave the occasion are to be blamed for it For they have no just Reason to be angry with us if as long as we keep within the bounds of Decency Truth and Loyalty we are by them provoked to express our selves after a different manner than we had otherwise intended The First Dialogue between Mr. G. and his Clerk. The Second and The Third Dialogues between Mr. G. and Esq T. REFLECTIONS Upon a Book called PAX VOBIS First Dialogue Between Mr. G. and his Clerk. Cl. GOD save you Master You are welcome home Mr. G. I thank you John. How do all my Neighbours Cl. Very well Sir God be praised Mr. G. I am glad to hear it But what makes you stare more at me now than you were wont to do formerly You wonder I warrant to see me wear a Sword and Crevat Cl. Indeed Master so I do I never saw you in this Garb before Mr. G. There are great Alterations in the World and it ought to seem no strange thing if I am somewhat alter'd from what I was Cl. There are great Alterations indeed Master but I cannot understand why they should make you leave off your Gown and Cassock I hope you do not intend Sir to preach in your Sword and Crevat Mr. G. You need not fear it Man for I do not intend to preach at all I must leave that to others who have better Authority to do it than I have Cl. Better Authority I am sure you are a Minister Sir and I have heard my Father who was a Clergy-man and died in the beginning of the great Rebellion often say That once a Minister and always a Minister and that a Man's Orders could never be taken from him Mr. G. That is true if a Man has such Orders as he ought to have but I never was so happy as to have any such Cl. I beg your Pardon Sir I now guess what you mean and truly Sir it has been a great trouble to the whole Parish to hear that you was turn'd But pray Master if I may be so bold how could you officiate as a Minister if you had no Orders Or have you only since his present Majesty came to the Crown discovered that you have none Mr. G. I knew it
different Persons do put different Interpretations upon the Scripture nay since the same Persons do interpret it at one time one way and at another time another it must necessarily follow that the Principle upon which the Reformation is built is very uncertain For one Man may be of one Perswasion another of another a third of one different from both Nay the same Person may change his Perswasion twice or thrice in a day and yet continue still a true Son of the Reformation Esq F. I do now guess what you would be at and perceive that you are well acquainted with a Book called Pax Vobis Mr. G. That is a notable Book Esq F. I allow it to have a great deal of Wit more of Malice but nothing of Argument Mr. G. The Book has sold wonderfully which is a sign that it has Argument in it Esq F. It is no sign amongst us of the Reformation for we read Books of all sorts and are pleased with every thing that is well done in its kind whether with Argument or without it whether written by an Enemy or a Friend And this is such a freedom that I would not part with it for all the World. So that if I had no other Argument against your Religion this to me would seem sufficient that if I had once embraced it and such a sort of Book as Pax Vobis should come out against it I should not dare without a License to peep into it but should think it a Book as much to be avoided as Chillingworth Dr. Stillingfleet's Rational Grounds of the Protestant Religion or the Bible it self Mr. G. Nay the Reformation gives you freedom enough for it allows you not only to read any Books but to be of any Perswasion if you judg it to be agreeable to Scripture Esq F. You have expressed in short the whole design of that Book in which altho there are seven Dialogues yet is there no more said in all of them to prove his Conclusion than in any one of them Mr. G. May not a Man use different Arguments to prove the same thing Esq F. Yes he may But this Author has not done it for to prove his Conclusion he makes use of the same Argument in every Dialogue with variety of Reflections upon several Persons and Things Mr. G. Is he not to be commended for it Esq F. He is to be commended for his variety of Reflections for this makes his Book pleasant But when he would pretend to make out so material an Objection against the Reformation it cannot sure be so very commendable to make use of the same Argument over and over again But this seems to be an allowed Practice amongst you for altho all your most considerable Objections have been answer'd an hundred times yet are we daily troubled with them as if they had never been heard of before and almost every Fortnight out comes that astonishing Question Where was your Church before Luther Mr. G. If he makes use but of one Argument it is however such an Argument as ought to perswade every honest Man to forsake the Reformation which is founded upon a Principle that gives a Man leave to be in England a Protestant in Germany a Lutheran in Hungary a Socinian and to change his Religion as often as he pleases Esq F. This is all out of Pax Vobis But how does it appear that a Man may thus change his Religion from that Principle That the Scriptures as any Man of sound Judgment interprets them are the Rule of Faith Mr. G. Because a Man may alter his Judgment and interpret Scripture otherwise than he did and since he may lawfully stick to that Interpretation which he himself puts upon it he may change his Religion as often as he thinks fit to alter his Judgment Esq F. That does not always follow for a Man may perhaps think fit to profess an alteration of his Judgment without any just Reason or without having made any inquiry whether he may safely do it or no and if he does so the alteration of his Judgment is so far from being a Reason why he should change his Religion that it is in it self a great fault Mr. G. But suppose he does find Reason to alter his Judgment may he not then change his Religion Esq F. Yes he is bound to do it altho he should change Truth for Error Mr. G. And so he may turn from one thing unto another until he has turn'd as often as there are Points in the Compass and be a true Child of the Reformation all the while Esq F. He is bound to alter his Perswasion as oft as he meets with sufficien◠Arguments to convince him that he ought to do so But there is a great deal of difference between what is Truth and what a Man believes to be so A Man is bound to act according to an erroneous Conscience until he is better informed but it does not therefore follow that his Conscience is not erroneous or that if he has had opportunities of undeceiving himself he is not in a very dangerours Condition Now the Author of Pax Vobis would insinuate that those of the Reformation do believe that to be true which any Church or particular Persons judg to be so and that there is a Liberty allowed amongst them to profess or deny any Tenets whatsoever Mr. G. How can it be otherwise since there are such different Opinions amongst them 〈◊〉 some of them have so often changed their minds and yet have still continued true Members of the Reformation Esq F. The Reformation is a word which denotes all those whether Churches or Persons which have left the Communion of the Church of Rome Now it may happen that some of those which have left that Communion may separate from it by degrees others all at once that some of them may maintain some of that Church's Errors and others may maintain Errors as bad as any which she holds But does it therefore follow because all these are stiled Members of the Reformation upon the account of their not living in Communion with the Church of Rome that they are all in the right and that a man may lawfully hold whatever is maintained by any of them Mr. G. They all pretend to soundness of judgment and their common Rule of Faith is Scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment Esq F. The Rule is good but their pretences are not For a man may think his judgment to be sound when it really is not and although he is bound to adhere to that interpretation which for want of soundness of judgment he puts upon Scripture yet the interpretation is not therefore at all the truer nor can it be an indifferent thing for me or any one else to approve or not to approve of it Mr. G. One would think that it were an indifferent thing when there are and have been so many great men amongst you who maintain Opinions contrary the one
to the other and yet all pretend to truth and to be true Members of the Reformation E. F. I tell thee once again That a man is said to be a true Member of the Reformation by being supposed to have left the Communion of the Church of Rome but yet that every one who has left that Communion may not in all respects maintain what is Truth although he may pretend to it And therefore a man that has left that Communion is still obliged to make a strict inquiry whether it be lawful for him to embrace the terms of that other Communion into which he has admitted himself and after he has done so not to desert it without good reason Mr. G. Does not every Member of the Reformation pretend to have reason on his side Esq F. But the great question is whether he has reason or no. Sir I cannot stay with you at present any longer but before I go I will leave with you one familiar instance which seems to me to be a sufficient confutation of that whole Book which we have discoursed of Mr. G. I long to hear it Esq F. Suppose the Emperor of the Turks should turn Christian Mr. G. I wish he would Esq F. You mean Roman Catholick Mr. G. Unless he turns Roman Catholick he might as well never turn Christian Esq F. We will let that alone at present You may well think that after his conversion he will be very desirous to have his people turn as well as himself and you must needs allow it to be very reasonable for the whole Empire to do it Mr. G. Nothing can be more reasonable Esq F. Now suppose one man turns because thoroughly convinced of the Excellency of the Christian Religion Another retains his wonted kindness for his old Mahumetan way of Worship but yet for fear of losing by it turns too A third to gain somewhat by it which he knows not otherwise how to get turns Christian although his sentiments are the same with those of the second A fourth has some high flying hopes and although he does not turn at present yet he is ready to do it when ever it is required of him It is therefore lawful to turn Christian or to be ready to turn to save by it or to get by it or in hopes of getting for this reason or for that reason or for any other reason whatsoever Mr. G. You are pleasant Sir but I do not perceive the consequence of this Discourse Esq F. Think on it and you will find it to be as good a consequence as that which your Author so much insists upon But I can stay no longer Parson Farewell I should be glad to see you at my House Mr. G. I shall not forget to wait upon you Esq F. You must forgive me for calling you Parson still I protest I cannot forget my old Compellation Mr. G. Sir I am your Servant The Third Dialogue Esq F. SIR your humble Servant This is kindly done I find you Catholicks have more Charity than some would make you to have Mr. G. I am always true to my word Sir. Esq F. In lesser matters you mean. Mr. G. Nay in the greatest Esq F. We will not dispute that Point You are heartily welcome although I must frankly tell you Not so welcome as you were wont to be Pray will you sit down Mr. G. I fear I shall disturb you Sir. Esq F. Not in the least I was diverting my self with the famous Pamphlet which we talked of when we were last together and am glad you are come that we may have a little more chat about it M. G. I do not doubt but that you have read it over long before now Pray Sir what do you think of it Esq F. I have read it over twice or thrice and think of it as I told you when I was with you viz. That the Book is a pleasant Book but that there is little of Argument in it and that which it has does not at all prove the Conclusion Mr. G. The men of the Reformation I suppose do not much like the Conclusion Esq F. I know not what others like I for my part like every thing that is well proved Let me intreat you to take the Book and as you turn over the leaves to give me the Contents of every Dialogue and let us consider together with what strength he proves That according to the Principles of the Reformation a man may change his Religion as oft as he pleases and that it is an indifferent thing what opinions a man holds Mr. G. Does he not in his first Dialogue show you the facility of such a change p. 5. And give you instances of those who have made it p. 7. Does he not tell you how readily they of different perswasions join together in the same Worship p. 8 That the Synod of Charenton has allowed it p. 9 Does he not instance in the several Changes which have been made here in England p. 10 And in the Opinions of several Doctors who have allowed Hereticks to be members of the Church In his second Dialogue he makes mention of great differences amongst those of the Reformation concerning their Rule of Faith but that it is resolved at last into the judgment of every particular person He then quotes several gross opinions of Calvin and others which he declares to be the Doctrine of the Reformation and that they may be believed by any man whatsoever Esq F. Pray go on Sir. Mr. G. In his Third he shows That every Woman and Cobler according to the Doctrine of the Reformation may preach and instruct others and hold several Blasphemous Tenets which he there gives an account of In his Fourth he relates other wicked Tenets of the Reformation especially such as encourage looseness of manners In his fifth Such as have respect to Christs having establish'd a Church to the truth of what he and the Apostles taught to the disagreement about the Canon of Scripture to the changing of Scripture to the Doctrines of Justifying Faith of Works of Gods Grace of the keeping his Commandments all which wicked Tenets he makes it appear that several of the Reformers have held and therefore that they are the Doctrines of the Reformation and may lawfully be held by any Member thereof if he will adhere to his own Principles Esq F. We shall see that by and by Pray give me the sense of the two last Dialogues Mr. G. In the beginning of the sixth he inveighs against the Church of England for pretending to impose upon her Members her Interpretations of Scripture which is no more than what is done by the Papists and is directly contrary to the Doctrine of the Reformation In the latter end thereof and in the beginning of the seventh he shews that according to the Principles of the Reformation a man may believe all the Doctrines of the Popery that several of the Reformers have believed several of them and that the only