liter lib. 10. into the contrary extreame Austine himselfe speaking of Tertullian saith thus De Deo noluit aliter sapere qui sane quoniam acutus est inderdum contra opinionem suam visa veritate superatur quid enim verius dicere potuit quam id quod ait quodam loco Esse corporale passibile est debuit ergo mature sententiam qua paulò superius dixerat etiam Deum corpus esse neque enim arbitror eum ita desipuisse vt etiam Dei naturam passibilem crederet c. He would not conceiue otherwise of God who indeed because he was of quicke iudgement sometimes he is ouercome by the sight of the truth contrary to his owne opinion for what could he speake more truly than when hee saith in a certaine place that to be bodily is to be passible therefore he ought to haue altered that sentence in which he had said a little before that God is a bodie for I doe not thinke that he was so vnwise as to thinke that the nature of God is passible Heere is a contradiction namely to be bodily is to be passible and God is bodily which be the premises of a Syllogisme and if you adde the conclusion which ariseth of them Ergo God is passible the falsehood of it will prooue the one of them to be false likewise now the maior is most true saith Austine ergo say I the minor is false and so consequently the one agreeth no better with the other than truth and falsehood you will say then debunt ergo mutare sententiam it is true but he changed it not for ought wee know but left this and some other contrarieties behind him vnretracted yet was he still accounted a very learned man Cyprian when he called for Tertullian was woont to say da magistrum giue me my master Austine saith acutus est he is a quicke and subtile disputer and Erasmus Inter Latinos Theologos multò omnium doctissimus Tertullianus Tertullian was the learnedest by much In praefat oper Hilaric of the Latine diuines Now where our papist still goeth on and tels vs after his absurd manner that the Iewes tare the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and that great apparance thereof seemes to be therein heere is but a seeming of apparance against the Euangelists and therefore I hope he is well able to stop any Iewes mouth in that behalfe and to defend the writings of the Euangelists against seemings of apparance if he cannot doe the like for the fathers and doctors then hath he sayd nothing to purpose but bred a suspition in his reader that he had rather the Euangelists should miscarie than the Fathers and this suspition is yet increased in that he accounteth the holy Scriptures without Churches Fathers and Councels to be the fountaine of all Heresie and Atheisme for may not a mans fancie mislead him in the fathers as well as the Scriptures and sucke poyson out of the one aswell as the other I am sure Dioscorus crieth out in the Councell of Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Action 1. Ibidem Cyrilli in multis locis ego cum patribus eijcior c. I haue the testimonie of the holie fathers Athenasius Gregorie Cyrill in ma-many places I am cast out with the Fathers c. So Eutyches Ego legi scripta beati Cyrilli Athanasij Ibid. Action sanctorum patrum So Carosus Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem octo patrum sic credo c. I beleeue thus according to the testimonie of three hundred and eighteene Fathers Heere bee Fathers and Councels alleaged by arrand heretickes as the grounds of their poyson but of the Scripture Ad pompeium cont epist Steph. de peccac merit remiss lib. 1. 12. Cyprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus If wee returne to the head and fountaine of Gods tradition the error of man doth cease And Austine Scriptura sacra nec falli potest nec fallere The holy Scripture can neither deceiue nor be deceiued As for the Church he talkes of if he be straitly examined he will tell you he meanes the Church of Rome and so no Scripture nor enarration of Scripture may goe currant but that which Rome will affoord vs that 's the Church which hee takes to be as he said a while agoe the sure rocke and pillar of trueth De expresse verbo Dei Hosius saith Si quis habeat interpretationē ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo scripturae etiāsi nec sciat nec intelligat an quomodo cum scripturae verbis conueniat tamen habet ipsissimum verbum Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome of some place of scripture although he neither know not vnderstand whether and how it doth agree with the words of the Scripture yet he hath the very word of God How like you this my maisters you need talke no more of Fathers and Councels no nor of learning nor wit neither for the Church of Rome whether it agree or agree not with the words of the Scripture will serue the turne you may burne your bookes and goe about other businesse the Church of Rome will watch for you but sirs I pray you tell vs wil your Church of Rome when she hath giuen vs an interpretation stand to it like a post and neuer alter that would be knowen before we yeeld to this which you vrge vpon vs. Nicho. Casanus No we dare not promise you that for we haue a great man one Nicholas Cusanus once a Cardinall in the Church of Rome who hath intituled a book which he hath written in defence of the Church thus De authoritate ecclesiae conciliorum supra contra scripturam of the authoritie of the Church Councels aboue contrary to the Scripture And in that booke he hath set downe Praxis ecclesiae vno tempore interpretatur Scripturā vno modo alio tempore alio modo nam intellectus currit cum praxi c. The practise of the Church interpreteth the Scriptures at one time one way and at another time another way for the vnderstanding runneth with the practise Marry then fie vpon you and vpon your Church our owne fancie will prooue as good an interpreter as either you or your Church Now let vs consider of his three differences betweene the errors of the Fathers those points of doctrine whereof we haue disputed I pray you looke vpon them and you shall find the two first to be the same and the third little differing from the other two the Fathers errors saith he were priuate opinions that 's the first one doctors opinion that 's the next reiected of the Church that 's the last Now if this word reiected be no more but not receiued or allowed for the Church neuer condemned euerie seuerall errour of the Fathers by publicke sentence
euen in his sight and presence Now what can this second beast be but the Lambe skinned Dragon tongued Prelacy of Rome and what other beast did the Romane Empire euer yeeld vnto but this onely whereof it followeth that the first beast is not onely the heathenish Emperours but the succession in generalitie for the heathenish neuer yeelded any of their heads to be cured by the Romish Dragon nay marke further where the g Apoc. cap. 18. holy Ghost teacheth that this first beast that hath seuen heads and ten hornes is ridden by the scarlet coloured whore of Baylon which cannot be vnderstood singly of the heathenish Emperours but generally of the Empire of Rome which at length yeelded his backe to bee sadled and ridden by that Babylonish Harlot which h Cap. 19.20 is afterward called a false prophet Wherefore as I sayd before so I say againe come i Reu. 18.4 out of Babylon that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receiue not of her plagues O mercifull Father open our eyes that we may see the vglinesse of Poperie in the cleere glasse of thy holy word and still teach vs by the continuall experience of thy gratious fauor and protection to take heed of the sauage designements of the Romish Dragon Hardwicke the 28. of Ianuarie 1606. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Lectorem Corporis angusto mihi pes fuit alter in antro Mens quoque vi socia corporis aegra fuit Ne pigeat tamen hunc librum percurrere patris aegroti sanus filius esse potest Debilis aura vias solet exiccare palustres Et lapides magnos guttula parua cauat The Contents Sectio 1. Questions touching the Church Scriptures Fathers and Traditions in generall by way of Introduction Sectio 2. Of the Lords day eating blood maryage within degrees of affinitie polygamy and punishming theft whether they be determined by scripture or Tradition Sectio 3. 4. Of Traditions in generall Sectio 5. Whether the Fathers holding certaine points of Papistrie be therefore excluded out of our Church Sectio 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Of praying for the dead Sectio 11. 12. 13. 14. Of Purgatorie Sectio 15. 16. 17. 18. Of Transubstantiation Sectio 19. Of prayer to Saints Sectio 20. 21. 22 Of vowing chastitie and Priests mariage Sectio 23. Of the errours of the ancient Fathers Sectio 24. Of Iustification by merite of our owne workes and the superabundant workes of the Saints Sectio 25. Of free-will to merite heauen Sectio 26. Of the power of the keyes ouer the quicke and the dead Sectio 27. A Conclusion containing certaine generall inducements that Poperie is the true way that leadeth blinde men and fooles to heauen so as they cannot erre and that our Religion is an inexplicable Labirinth that hath no direction which is plaine blasphemie against God the author and inspirer of the Scripture A BRIEFE ANSVVERE to a Popish Dialogue between two Gentlemen the one a Papist the other a Protestant The Dialogue Sectio I. PApist Doe you beléeue the Catholicke Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed through the whole world which Church hath euer since remained on earth and shall so continue vntil the second comming of Christ Protestant All this I doe beleeue Pap. Are the Protestants of this Church or the Papists or both Pro. The Protestants onely Pap. Haue you any outward meanes to perswade you that the Protestants are onely of this Church or are you mooued thereunto by inspiration onely Pro. The inward meanes is the spirite of God the outward is the canonicall Scripture Pap. This inward meanes lyeth hidden in your owne breast but how do you by this outward meane discerne the true Church Pro. That church which doth teach practise the doctrine conteined in the canonicall Scriptures is the true Church of Christ cōtrariwise that church which in matters of faith teacheth a VVittingly and wilfully any doctrine repugnant or not grounded vpon the same word is an hereticall Church a synagogue of Satan Pap. The Scriptures you say are the outward meane for discerning of the true Church haue you some outward meanes to discerne the canonicall Scriptures or doe you know them by inspiration onely Pro. The outward meane is the vniforme b There be other outward meanes beside the consent of antiquitie consent of all antiquitie Pap. You doe then receiue the testimonie of ancient writers for the discerning of the canonicall Scriptures why doe you not likewise beléeue that the Apostles did leaue many things to be obserued in the Church by tradition without writing séeing that the one and the other is confirmed by the like vniforme consent of ancient writers Pro. The Scripture is the sure rocke whereon to build our faith wherein all things are contained necessarie for our saluation The Answere IT is a common saying that such as doe deficere in extremo actu faile in the last act are foolish Poets but whether they be foolish Diuines or no that faile euerie where beginning and ending and all iudge you and that you may doe it the better obserue I pray you how vntowardly this popish Diuine begins to lay his foundation that you may the better iudge of the whole frame of his building The word Catholicke is taken three maner of wayes first for that which is opposed to heretical or schismaticall as Ecclesia Catholica the Catholicke Church and Ecclesia Martyrum the Church of the Martyrs Haeresi 68. in Epiphanius Secondly for that which is opposed to the Church of the Iewes for such a signification hath the word Catholicke in the inscription of Saint Iames his Epistle Lastly for the generall fellowship of all the children of God elected and adopted in Christ Iesu before the foundations of the world for none else can bee the members of the bodie of Christ Eph. 1.23 Colos 1.24 and in this signification it is taken in our Creed Now it would be knowne which of these significations is meant in the first question the first signification restraineth the word Catholicke to particular Churches it is not like that your Papist demaundeth whether you beleeue this or that Church in particular Againe the second opposeth the word Catholicke to the church of Iurie wheras your Papist includeth the church of Iurie before there was any other church any where planted in his question saying Doe you beléeue the catholique Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed c. The last signification is applied to the Saints of God predestinated to saluation 2. Tim. 2.19 which Church was neuer planted by the Apostles but by the eternall decree of God who onely knoweth who are his Againe I can hardly brooke that the Church is here said to be first planted by the Apostles for God had his Church euer from the beginning or that it hath remained euer since the Apostles planted it for it hath
long agoe out of Gardiner Tresham Chedsey and Hardings hands who were farre better able to hold him than our wandring Papists be at this day and therefore this is none of those inanswerable proofes he hath taken vpon him to alleage and Saint Ambroses Faith or Opinion in this point is not yet found to be Papisticall The Dialogue Sectio XVI EPiphanius This ancient Father after a large discourse made for the Catholicke exposition of diuers places of Scripture peruerted by Arius and other Heretickes who turned all things contrary to their owne reason and vnderstanding into Allegories and figuratiue spéeches concludeth that a Christian must beléeue many things beyond the comprehension of humane reason for proofe hereof he sheweth that we must beléeue that man was made according to the Image of God because it is the word of God and not to turne it into an allegoricall sense because we cannot comprehend what it is wherein this similitude doth consist which is neither in the bodie nor in the soule nor in vertue nor in baptisme Then he procéedeth vnto another like instance Et quot sunt quae similia sunt saith he videmus enim quòd accepit saluator in manus suas veluti euangeliū habet quod surrexit in coena accepit hac vbi gratias egisset dixit hoc meū est hoc hoc videmus quòd non aequale est neque simile non imagini in carne non inuisibili deitati non lineamentis membrorum hoc enim est rotunda figurae insensibile quantum ad potentiam voluit per gratiam dicere hoc meum est hoc hoc nemo non fidem habet sermoni qui enim non credit esse ipsum verum sicut dixit is excidit à gratia salute a this is a very homely translation looke the answere And how many like examples are there saith he for we see that our Sauiour did take into his handes as it is in the Gospell that hée rose vp at supper and when he had giuen thankes he sayd this is my bodie and so forth and we see that it is not equall nor like vnto a fleshly bodie nor vnto the inuisible deitie neither hath it the lineaments of the members of a bodie for that is of a round figure and impossible to bée discerned of vs yet it pleased him to say through grace this is my bodie and so forth and there is no man which beléeueth it not for who so beléeueth not that it is he according as he hath said is fallen away frō grace saluation Thus farre this ancient Father who b So did many an hereticke and scismaticke as well as Epipharius liued in Palestine 1200. yéeres ago out of which words being considered with the scope of the discourse going before and following after from the words Maxima me subijt admiratio c. vnto these words fabula est de caetero ipsa veritas omnia allegoricè dicuntur We may collect diuers good Lessons to the purpose in hand first that a Catholicke man must beléeue many places of Scripture to be c So many be true in a figuratiue sense and so is this for one true being taken in the literall sense although it be aboue the comprehension of humane reason Secondly that in the place of Scripture last rehearsed there is something beyond the comprehension of mans reason which notwithstanding must be beléeued and not turned into an allegorie d That is such a figuratiue sense as is allegoricall For Epiphanius here speakes onely against allegories and no other figure or figuratiue sense which I do ground vpō these words Et quot sunt quae similia sunt and how many like examples may we find If I do inferre or alleage any thing amisse reprooue me if not let vs procéed Libro Anacoratus circa medium Pro. Epiphanius in that place inueigheth against Arius and Origen as well for interpreting things literally which are to be vnderstood figuratiuely as he doth for interpreting things figuratiuely which are to be vnderstood literally and therefore if you doe interpret these words this is my bodie literally whereas it is to bee vnderstood figuratiuely he inueigheth against you and not against mee Pap. True it is that Epiphanius doth reprooue as well the literall as the figuratiue interpretation but who so shall read the discourse with indifferencie shall finde that the examples of the blessed Sacrament and of the similitude betwéene man and the Image of God are produced and vrged onely to prooue that many places must be vnderstood literally and not turned into allegories and e Epiphanius speakes not here against any other figures but allogories figures because we cannot comprehend how they can be true in the literall signification for first he inueigheth against Origen for interpreting many things that are spoken in the scriptures concerning paradise which ought to be vnderstood literally into an allegorical interpretation then hee produceth those two examples to prooue that many thinges in scripture must be f And not turned into allegories but other figures cannot be auoided no not in the Sacrament beléeued although we be not able to comprehend how they can be true and so returneth to the prosecution of his argument against Origen concerning his deniall of a terrestriall Paradise and his turning of all things thereof spoken into allegories but this I referre to the censure of the iudiciall Reader and will procéede in that you haue not excepted against to wit that there is something in the blessed sacrament which we must beleue although it be incōprehēsible desiring to learn of you whether it bée a thing incomprehensible that the bread should bee a figure of Christs bodie or what other incomprehensible matter you doe find therein Pro. The inuisible operation of the holy Ghost in the Sacrament is a thing incōprehensible Pa. You must not so escape for the thing that this Father noteth to be incomprehensible is that whereas our Sauiour sayd it is his bodie which must be g It is true as the truth meant it true because the truth hath spoken it yet it is not like vnto a naturall bodie but of a round forme c. Now I will learne of you if it be not Christs true bodie but a figure and signification thereof what wonder h But it is incomprehensible how it should be so powerfull a figure or incomprehensible matter is there that the Sacrament being a figure of Christs bodie should neuerthelesse be of a round forme and not like vnto a naturall bodie The Answere ANother ancient Father is brought to speake for transubstantiation whether he will or no and his testimonie is so tediously dilated with multitude of words and false translations and blinde lessons that it wearieth me to looke them ouer yet may I not suffer such loquacitie to triumph against the truth Ambrose is raised as it were from the dead leading Saint Austine in a
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
father that euer put penne to paper namely they a Luk. 16.29 31. haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them And againe if they heare not Moses and the Prophets neither will they bee perswaded though one rise from the dead What will the Papists nay what can they or any man else liuing say to this will they tell vs that Moses and the prophets be hard to vnderstand and that they containe not an absolute and full doctrine of life and death vnlesse they be peeced out with traditions I am sure the rich glutton in hel durst not say so much yet it is to be presumed that he would haue sayd so if he had not vnderstood that it was not worth the propoūding in Abrahams presence thus much hee was bold to reply to the first part of Abrahams speech nay father Abraham but if one come to my brethren frō the dead they wil amēd their liues but the second part which exclusiuely refers them to Moses and the Prophets doth so stop his mouth that hee had no whit further to plead for his owne brethren It may be maruailed that he spake nothing neither of the imperfection of the scripture nor of Iewish traditions nor any such thing but only of such apparitions from the dead verily if any such plea had been of any moment hee would not haue fayled to doe his best endeauour for his brethren and to put Abraham in mind of the imperfection of his answere Howbeit that which he then durst not doe is thinking it to be little worth is now propounded and vrged by the Papists the Sonnes and heires of the rich Glutton who euen in despight of Abraham presume to reply that it is not inough to heare Moses and the Prophets and that they will heare such as rise from the dead Oh take heede of such desperate fellowes as these be that regard not the doctrine of Abraham and make themselues wiser now in shifting off the force of his speech than Hell it selfe was in the dayes of our Sauiour belike hell was not so wise then as it is now for now our Popish Gluttons can tell vs new tales of the darkenes of the imperfectnes of the ambiguitie of the corruptions of the Scripture they can prate of traditions and vnwritten verities which are not to bee found in Moses and the Prophets howbeit let him that hath any regard of his saluation consider with himselfe whether is the surer and the safer way to beleeue them or to beleeue Abraham for it is impossible to beleeue both Captaine Stapleton b Lib. 12. Cap. 8. tels vs after this wise manner that it is one thinge to heare Moses and the Prophets which Abraham requireth and another thing to heare them onely but what doth hee else in so doing but shew himselfe more impudent than the Deuil who when our Sauiour saith in Mathew c Math. 4.10 Luk. 4.8 It is written thou shalt worship thy lord thy God him only shalt thou serue durst not be so sawcie as to tell him that it is one thing to serue God as it is commaunded in d Deut. 6.13 10.20 Deuteronomie and another thing to serue him onely I am sure Cyprian e Lib. 2. epist 3. where God himselfe from heauen f Math. 17 5. saith Ipsum audite is bold to adde the word solum twise together in one place yet neuer durst any quarrelling hereticke tell Cyprian as Stapleton tels vs Aliud est Mosen Prophetas audire aliud solos audire It is one thing to heare them and another thing to heare them onely but to bee short doe but looke the words of Abraham g Cap. 16.29.31 in Saint Lukes Gospell and consider of the circumstances with an vpright religious heart and then blame me if thou finde not that the word onely may as rightly be added here in Luke as either Christ or Cyprian haue added it in Mathew Stapleton goeth on still and beareth vs in hand against Abraham that if Moses and the Prophets were onely to bee heard then the new Testament should be excluded as superfluous but by Stapletons good leaue that 's neither so nor so for h Deut. 18 15. Moses himselfe willeth vs to heare Christ in all things whatsoeuer he should say vnto vs so doth i Act. 3.22 Peter teach vs out of Moses and k Act. 7.37 Saint Stephen likewise witnesseth that Moses sayd vnto the children of Israel that the lord their God shuld raise vp vnto them a Prophet whō they shuld heare therfore Moses in the old Testament hath taught vs to heare Christ in the new and if thou make question of the writings of the Apostles l 2. cor 5.19.20 Paul saith they were the Ambassadors of Christ and preached the word of reconciliation in Christs stead if this yet stop not Stapletons mouth then let him know that the new Testament is not an addition but an exposition of the old but such an exposition as all the world together could not haue made without the extraordinarie inspiration of the spirite of Christ and heere for the full determination of this point hearken I pray thee what their owne Lyranus tels them in his Cōmentaries vpon Luke Habent Mosen qui docuit moralia agenda habent prophetas qui docuerunt mystica credenda ista sufficiunt ad salutem ideò sequitur audiant illos They haue Moses saith hee who hath taught morall things that ought to be done they haue the Prophets who haue taught mysticall things that ought to be beleeued and these be sufficient to saluation therefore it followeth heare them Thus is the doctrine of insufficiencie of the scripture and necessitie of Traditions condemned to death and must goe to the place of execution vnlesse a better pardon bee sued out for it than any that euer I could yet see registred in their Popish Cronicles howbeit wee haue not yet done with this question of traditions for there is no man so carelesse of his saluation that will set vp an Altar to these vnknowne fictions as a Act. 17.23 the Athenians did to the vnknowne God before he know how many they bee how few they be what they be and so consider with himselfe deliberately whether they be fish or flesh or good red herring herein then we call vpon them for resolution and it is good reason wee should so doe till we know whether they dreame or lye waking This makes a sort of them to vncase slouens absurdly to confesse themselues to be no better than heretickes b Lib. 3. ca. 3. fund 4. Canus a great Papist tels vs out of Origen and Hilarie that Moses did not write the secrecies of the law but deliuered them to Ioshua by Tradition and so infers that the Apostles committed the secrecies of the Gospel by tradition to a few wise and perfect men And Bellarmine as great a Papist as liues this day c Bellar. de
it was lawfull by the law of God in cases specified in the same lawe that is Cap. 22.2 as I take it if the thiefe breake vp a house for that I finde specified in Exodus Howbeit Dauid in a case not specified giueth sentence of a thiefe that as the Lorde liueth he is the child of death that is that he should surely die and also that he should make a fourefolde or eightfolde restitution 2. Sam. 12.5.6 Arbangtaijm Arbangtaijm Now if the Hebrue word be taken for eightfold as no Romanist may deny Exod. 21.1 because the old catholicke translation hath so set it downe we see plainely that beside the sentence of death Cap. 6.31 which Dauid iustifieth with an oath the punishment specified in the law is doubled nay the incresse of the punishment appointed by the law is cleerely made good in the Prouerbs of Salomon where it is sayd that a thiefe being taken shall restore seuen fold or giue all the substance that he hath Rom. 13.4 and touching the christian Magistrate S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 5.20 that the wicked should feare the sword of vengeance which God hath put in his hand where feare is made the end of punishment as it is in Timothy where the same Apostle saith them that sinne rebuke openly that the rest may feare but if open rebuking did not strike such a feare as bridled sinners from corrupting their wayes then Timothy was to proceede to a more heauye censure that might worke this feare and so keepe downe sinne from multiplying in the Church and euen so ought the ciuill Magistrate to temper penall lawes in the ciuill state that euill disposed men may feare and neuer to take his lawes to be sufficiently penall but still to increase the terrour of them till feare to doe euill be sufficiently planted and this equitie doth the Lord himselfe retaine in his owne displeasure or indignation against sinne Psal 90.11 for so the great Prophet of God Moses teacheth vs in these words thereafter as thou art feared so is thy displeasure wherefore these two displeasure and feare are like the two buckets of a Well whereof the one commeth vp when the other goeth downe and the one is at the highest when the other is at the lowest briefely then to conclude as the Lord saw the punishment appointed in the law powerfull enough at that time and a long time after to worke feare in that Nation and State but yet was increased afterward by the Iewish Magistrates as they saw the disposition of the people to require it so the christian Magistrate finding by experience that the state and condition of his time and countrey is more desperate and lesse fearefull to robbe and steale then the Iewes were and so not to be ruled without a greater sharpnesse must needs whe this sworde and strike deeper then the Iewish Magistrate that he may be feared The Dialogue Sestio III. Tradition PAp I will a It is better to omit them then to speake of them so childishly as you haue done of the rest omit those other pointes of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture for breuities sake and passe vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause reseruing your answere to the rest vnto your better leasure and premeditation yet by the way let mée shew you the great difference betwéene the antiquitie and you in this point b VVe can ackdowledge no such traditions who receiued the traditions deliuered by the Apostles without writing and continued and obserued from hand to hand with no lesse reuerence then they did the written Scriptures Irenaeus saith of the heretickes of his time that when the Scriptures were alledged against them they would answere that the Scriptures could not be vnderstood of those that were ignorant of the traditions and that when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles and kept in the church by succession of Bishops were obiected they would answere that they had more vnderstanding then the Bishops or the Apostles themselues and that they alone had found out the trueth lib. 3. cap. 2. whereby you may see that the c They might better doe it then then you now Catholiks in the first age of the Church did alledge against the hereticks of that time Scripture and Traditions euen as the catholikes of this time do alledge the same against the heretickes of this time and herein onely consisteth the difference when Scriptures are alledged against the heretickes of this time they doe flie to the interpretation when the interpretation of the Bishops that is of the ancient catholicke Doctors is produced against them they answere in effect that they haue more vnderstanding then the Bishoppes and that they alone haue found the trueth when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles are d You may sooner alledge them then prooue that the Apostles deliuered them alledged they answere that the Apostles did leaue none such or if they did that they are not to bee receiued vnlesse they can bee prooued out of the canonicall Scriptures thus you appeale from traditions to Scripture when scripture is brought against you you appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of the fathers to the interpretation of Caluin or to the e This is but the imagination of your brayne imagination of your owne braine as to the supreame Iudge and primum mobile of all your religion but let vs procéede in shewing the great difference betwéene the fathers you herein Epiphanius O portet autem traditione vti non enim omnia a diuina Scriptura accipi possunt c. Wee ought to vse traditions beeause all things cannot bee learned out of the holy Scripture And a little after it followeth Tradiderunt itaque sancti Des Apostoli peccatum esse post dicretam virginitatem nubere lib. 2. to 2. haeres 61. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie The same father for the confutation of Aerius vseth the authoritie of the tradition of the Apostles haeres 75. and for the confutation of Seuerus hee voucheth a place out of the booke a Then the Apostles deliuered them written in a booke of the Apostles Constitutions haeres 45. Saint Augustine Many things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles b How can it be knowne whether this beleefe were right or wrong are beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles by tradition because they are obserued through the vniuersall world de baptis cont Donat lib. 2. fo 2. The same Author saith that the vniuersall Church doth obserue as a tradition of the fathers that when mention is made of the dead at the tim of the sacrifice that they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should bee offered for them de verb Apost serm 32. Saint Chrysostome citeth a place out of the
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
for first as not to forgiue is as much to say as to punish so to forgiue is as much to say as not to punish in which sence there is forgiuenes in the world to come as well as in this world Secondly Saint Peter saith Act. 3.19 Amend you liues and turne that your sinnes may be done away when the time of refreshing shall come c. that is at the second comming of Christ to restore all thinges where wee learne that our sinnes are compleatly forgiuen till death sinne and hell be fully vanquished and discharged at the last day De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 9. Lastly Bellarmine saith that Mali habitus in vita contracti are taken away per primum actum contrarium animae separatae that is to say a habite of ill doing which grew a long time by many bad actions De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 2. 3. is cleane purged in a moment by one good deede and yet hee holds stiffely against Luther that soules departed can neither mereri nor demereri howbeit here we finde a taking away or forgiuenesse of sinnes in another world without scorching in purgatory by the good deedes of soules departed Now whether these deedes be merita or demerita or what other name it will please him to allow them some of his Popish friends may doe well to resolue vs. The Dialogue Sectio XIIII THus a You speake of more than you haue done or can doe haue I for proofe of this point of Catholicke Doctrine produced against you all the meanes that euer were deuised to conuince an heresie and on the other side you are put to all the shifts that euer hereticke deuised for defence of Heresie from the b The Doctors haue no authoritie or dominion ouer our faith authoritie of Doctors and Fathers and the continuall practise of the vniuersall Church you must appeale vnto Scriptures from Scriptures c VVe make no such appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of d VVe looke not to be saued by Ambrose Aug. and Gregories faith but by our owne Abak Cap. 2.4 Ambrose Austine and Gregorie the Great to the interpretation and deuise of your owne braine as vnto the supreame and onely sufficient Iudge of all controuersies So that I must either discontinue my suit or put the matter to comprimise and make your selfe sole arbitrator which if I should doe and could tell how to propound the case vnto you in such couert maner as the Prophet Nathan did to Dauid I would not doubt but to drawe from you the like sentence as Dauid pronounced against himselfe as for example if I should put your owne case vnto you thus masked and disguised in the habit of a case in law Iohn a Stile seazed of the Manor of Dale wherof he and his Auncestors haue béen quietly possessed time out of minde hath to shew for proofe of his title a record of the Tower dated the first of H. 1. whereby it appeareth that the Conquerour gaue this Land to one of his Auncestors to the same effect he hath also another like record of H. 2. and another of H. 3. Iohn a Noke claymeth an interest in this Land and alleageth for maintenance of his title thereunto that notwithstanding the sayd possession and records the Conqueror did giue no such Mannor vnto the Auncestors of Iohn a Stile and that without a Charter from the Conquerour to be shewed to that effect his interest is neuer the better A faire Charter is produced and acknowledged by the Plaintiffe but he desireth that the true and right interpretation of the words may be taken the interpretation concerning the true meaning and sense of the words deliuered by the reuerend Iudges in a like case long before this controuersie grew is shewed which ouer-ruleth the matter plainely with the Defendant The Plaintiffe replyeth that the Iudges like men did erre in their opinion and that himselfe and some other that claime like interest in the land can giue the right interpretation of the words whereunto he will referre the whole triall of his cause I pray you either tell me who is like to haue best interest to this land or giue mée an d Ye shall haue instaÌ„ces inow looke the answere instance where the cases doe differ The Testimonies of Epiphanius Chrysostome Austine Ambrose who e They affirme it not but you father it vpon them affirme that praier for the dead was a tradition of the Apostles are the records of the Tower the Scriptures the Charter of the Conqueror the interpretation of the sayd Doctors of the place of Saint Paul Cor. 3. the opinion of the Iudges deliuered for the explication of the true sense and meaning of the words of the Charter This case being agréed by our Counsell let it bée mooued at the Checker barre and let my f This should haue been omitted in coÌ„mon discretioÌ„ Lord chéefe Barons opinion therein be a finall end of the controuersie betwéen vs. The Answere HEre our popish Diuine will needs bee a Lawyer and therefore he puts cases against vs but his deuises and producements are too homely to controll a truth and to settle a mans faith and conscience We haue seen what those Fathers and Doctors say and we haue shewed him how vnable they are to beare the burden hee layeth vpon them and therfore he had need to deale couertly by masking and disguising if euer he looke to enioy his Mannor of Dale Howbeit the breake-necke of all is this the cases differ as may bee shewed by many instances First you haue not had quiet possession time out of minde for it was disturbed by Aerius and so along euen to the daies of Luther as Bellarmine confesseth in his Treatise of Purgatorie Secondly the Greeke Church was neuer seased of this mannor Vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est à Graecis creditum Lib. 1. cap. 2. De haeres libr. 8. ca. 1. Euen till this day Purgatorie is not beleeued by the Grecians saith Alphonsus and so saith Roffensis in Polidore de inuentoribus rerum Thirdly the conqueror neuer gaue it by charter but it was taken rather from the paraclete of Mountanus as I shewed before out of Tertullian and so defended afterward by colour of charter Fourthly your Iohn a Stile hath no sufficient record to shew that prayer for the dead is a Tradition of the Apostles Fiftly if that record could be found and were graunted yet that which he claimeth by Charter from the Conquerour will not follow Lib. de fide etâ—per cap. 13. 16. ad Dulcit quaest 1. Esa 53.5 Rom. 8.1 Apoc. 14.13 Eccles 9.6 as hath bene seene alreadie Sixtly the Charter which is shewed is not faire but doubtfull and full of difficulties so saith Austine one of your own iudges Seuenthly there is a fairer Charter to the contrary in Esay Paul and Saint Iohn and Salomon saith plainely that the dead haue no part in the
string and carrying the vniuersall Church vpon his backe as though his words had neuer been nor could be answered and this facing may become a Papist reasonably well but when he brings in Ephanius with a wrong translation to second the matter whose testimonie hath ben often answered and the edge point of it turned long agoe to the very throte and bowels of transubstantiation I may truely say of him as the wise man doth of vnaduised pratlers Prou. 29.20 Cap. 26.12 namely that there is more hope of a foole than of him Epiphanius saith Et accepit haec And hee tooke these speaking plurally of many round cakes or peeces of bread which after hee cals hoc hoc this and this more distinctlyt his our translator cleane omitteth and englisheth hoc est meum hoc hoc this is mine and this and this this is my bodie and so forth Againe hoc est rotundae figurae insensibile quantum ad potentiam this is of a round figure insensible he translateth that is of a round figure and impossible to be discerned of vs. And againe qui non credit esse ipsum verum hee that beleeueth not that it is true Hee translateth thus who so beleeueth not that it is hee whereas ipsum verum agreeth grammatically with sermonem immediately before These forgeries bee verie materiall for when Epiphanius saith hoc meum est hoc hoc as of three round cakes wherof euerie one seuerally and separately is sayd to bee the bodie of Christ verily we must either admit a new trinitie in vnitie whereof euerie one seuerally is the bodie of Christ and yet all three but one bodie or else we cannot hold transubstantiation it will not be so hard a matter to exemplifie the mysterie of the Trinitie which is beyond all example if hoc hoc hoc be a trinitie in vnitie Secondly when Epiphanius saith that the round cake is without sense and powerlesse for so wee are taught to translate it by opposition following in these words Dominum verò nostrum nouimus totum sensum totum sensitiuum c. Wee know that our Lord is all sense and all sensitiue We see plainely that it cannot be sayd of the bodie of Christ simply and absolutely vnlesse we imagine the bodie of Christ to be senselesse and powerlesse Lastly when Epiphanius saith that wee must beleeue the words of Christ to be true as hee spake them we may not thinke that he vnderstood by ipsum verum verie Christ himselfe bodie blood and all as this man translateth in fauor of the popish single sacrilegious communion for that 's not sicut dixit as any man may easily perceiue The Counsell of Trent decreeth thus Sess 13. cap. 3. Si quis negauerit totum integrum Christum omnium gratiarum fontem authorem sub vna panis specie sumi anathema sit If any man shall denie that whole Christ and the author and fountaine of all graces is contained vnder the onely forme of bread let him be accursed But I beseech you tell vs by what wordes this strange consecration is made hoc est corpus meum makes but the bodie that is broken and bloud is not broken but shed Againe hic est sanguis meus makes but the blood that is shed and the bodie is not shed but broken Verily our Sauiour himselfe when he gaue bread gaue his bodie and not blood for that he gaue after supper when he took the cup Luk. 22 20. and if he gaue integrum Christum whole Christ when he gaue bread then he gaue nothing when he gaue the cup and therefore these good fellowes had need take heede they inuolue not the Sonne of God himselfe within their 1. Cor. 12 3. Anathema sit for no man speaking by the spirite of God calleth Iesus execrable In decret pontiff dist 2. cap. Comper No no they that diuide this holy mysterie bee Sacrilegi saith Pope Gelasius and so by good consequent this Anathema sit must returne home and fall vpon their owne bald pates that made it But to leaue these fashoods and to giue you the true meaning of this ancient Father in a summary Compendium wee must beleeue that bread in the Lords supper is the bodie of Christ not simply but in such a figure as taketh not away the truth of the Scripture as we also beleeue man to be after a true vnderstanding Gent. 1.26 27 the Image of God for as man is after a sort the Image of God as the word of God testifieth though hee be not throughly so neither in regard of bodie nor soule nor minde nor baptisme nor vertuous liuing not any other euident and liuely similitude wee see him to haue with God so doe wee beleeue that the bread which is of a round figure and without sense and feeling is after a true manner and meaning the bodie of Christ as the wordes of Christ teach vs though it be not so by substance or apparant proportion and portraiture of bodily members Wherefore though bread by nature be but a prophane common element appointed of God to feede our bodies yet by grace it pleaseth the Lord to make it and to call it his bodie that is a Sacrament of his bodie whereby as by an effectuall instrument the faithfull receiuers are spiritually fed and nourished to eternall life This I take to be Epiphanius meaning whereunto I will adde a few lessons for more perspicuitie and for the ouerthwarting of those two lessons which our Papist heere giueth vs. Frst Epiphanius being learned and industrious knew well inough wherein the Image of God consisted Ephes 4 24. Coloss 3 10. for Paul teacheth it plainely in his Epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians Secondly this Image is so defaced and ouershadowed in the posteritie of Adam that nothing in man or about man seemeth answerable or agreeable vnto it Thirdly notwithstanding this obscuritie wee must beleeue the truth of Gods word that man is created after the Image of God and not ouerthrow that truth by allegoricall subtilties Fourthly wee haue the like example in the wordes of Christ at his last supper namely this bread is my bodie which Epiphanius knew to be spoken per gratiam by grace whereby that common element was aduanced supernaturally and mystically yet truely to haue the name of the bodie of Christ whereof it was a Sacrament Fiftly there is no apparant equalitie or likelyhood or outward sensible similitude or proportion of members why bread should be so called Lastly notwithstanding this difficultie we must beleeue that by bread is meant true bread and by bodie the true bodie of Christ and that the one is sayd of the other figuratiuely indeed because they be dispanita yet truly as our Sauiour spake and not flye to origenicall allegories which ouerthrowe the hystoricall truth of Gods holy word and turne it into fables These lessons I trow be plaine inough yet I doubt our Papist will
doctrine by the infalliblenesse of the outward senses 1. Iohn 1.1 saying that which we haue heard which wee haue seene with these our eies which wee haue looked vpon these hands haue handled of that word of life that I say which we haue seene and heard declare we vnto you not that you may be Heretickes and Atheists but that you may haue felloship with vs and that our fellowship may be with the father and with his sonne Iesus Christ Now touching humane reason I would gladly know whether our Papist haue framed his arguments with it or without it if with it let him take heede he be not an Hereticke or an Atheist if without it I doubt he shall hardly mooue either Hereticke or Catholicke to be of his opinion much lesse conuert Infidels It were strange doctrine to teach men neuer to vse the helpe of humane reason because Saint Paul saith Rom. 1 19. the wisedome of this world if foolishnesse for though the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesu be farre beyond the reach of mans wisedome yet the same Paul saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you may be knowen concerning God is ingraffed in the heart of man whereby Gods eternall power and Godhead shining in his works is knowen vnto him and Peter Lumbard Lib. 3 dist 24. his owne Prophet saith Quaedā fide creduntur quae intelliguntur naturali ratione Something 's are beleeued by faith which are vnderstood by naturall reason But to make short worke Paul saith indeed that the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the spirit of God and God forbid we should denie it but yet the same Apostle presently after saith 1. Cor. 2.14 c. againe the spirituall man discerneth all things now let him shew vs that papists are spirituall men and Protestants naturall men and then we will vayle the bonnet of his insensible and vnreasonable assertions otherwise we may not become fooles and run mad at his pleasure Againe where he disputeth that an infidell may reiect the resurrection of the dead the mystery of the Trinitie the eternitie of the sonne of God the comming in of Christ in his naturall bodie to his disciples the doores being shut and such like Articles of our Christian faith as well as we may reiect the reall presence in the Sacrament you may see the pure simplicitie of this man who makes Christs entrance through a shut doore to be an Article of faith Howbeit his master of sentences findeth documents of the Trinitie in things created and Saint Austine saith Lib. 1. dist 3. De Trinitate lib. 6. cap. 20. Oportet vt creatorem per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspicientes Trinitatem intelligamus It behooueth vs that we beholding in vnderstanding the creator by the things which were created should vnderstand the Trinitie Againe Tertullian hath written a booke De resurrectione carnis and Athenagoras a Christian Philosopher hath written another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of the resurrection of the dead Tertullian Athenagoras wherein this article of faith is soundly prooued by humane reason and it being a sure ground that God cannot be without his power and wisedome and that the father is Fons origo Deitatis as sol is fons origo lucis The fountaine and originall of the Godhead as the sunne is the fountaine and originall of light It will not be so hard to conceiue by reason that the son of God may be begotten yet coeternal with God his father but I shal not need to labor further in this point there is a Treatise written purposely of this argument by Philip Morney a noble man of Fraunce Phil. Morney wherin you may see how far reason may wade in these such like articles of Christianity therfore if an infidel flie to humane reason he shal haue some stay to leane vpō in matters of faith wheras neither he nor we nor any man els liuing can find any possibility of reason or sense to induce vs to beleue the real presence Howbeit he may do well to teach vs from what an infidell should appeale to the arbiterment of humane reason is it like that any man will presse an infidell with Scriptures Fathers Councels so to driue him to appeale to reason Paul saith that prophecying serueth not for infidels but for them which beleeue 1. Cor. 14.22 where the Apostle meaneth such infidels as be altogether strangers from Christian doctrine and must be won by signes not by prophecying as for Fathers Councels we may not prefer them to Paul and Peter in the conuersion of an infidell and besides that infidels will make more account of their own Prophets Epimenides Menander and Aratus Tit. 1.12 Plato Hesiode and Homer such like than of our Fathers and Councels yet notwithstanding if we should confesse that other matters of faith cannot be measured by humane reason without danger of heresie yet if you cleaue to his faith not to your owne reason in the reall presence you cannot choose but be an hereticke Dial 2. in con The Symboles or signes of the Lords bodie after the priest hath inuocated are charged made other shings and this doth Theodoret euidētly declare in one of his Dialogues where the hereticke saith Symbola dominici corporis sanguinis post inuocationē sacerdotis mutantur et alia fiunt And this he speakes of a substantial change as our Papists do at this day but the Catholicke answereth Signa mysticapost sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma Thus hath Theodoret a learned and auncient father of the Greeke Church written almost 1200. yeeres agoe giuing cleerely to vnderstand that the doctrine of transubstantiation was not Catholicke in his time but hereticall what the Greeke Church thinketh of it at this day may better be learned by the last Session of the Councell of Florence than by the bold face of this Papist whose head is so full of vniforme consents and arguments of credibilitie Council Florent sess vltima that he forgets how many of the Euangelists speake of the Lords supper See then what ill lucke this poore man hath that both his vniforme consents faile him the one confuted by Theodoret and the Councell of Florence the other by Saint Iohns Gospel where you shall not finde one word spoken of the Sacrament all the foure Euangelists quoth he how I pray you in thought word or deed marry saith he in direct and plaine words Indeed the words of three Euangelists are direct and plaine against him but the fourth saith nothing Matthew Marke say that the Sacrament of Christs blood after consecration is the fruit of the vine Math. 26.29 Mar. 14.25 cap. 22 20. and Luke saith that the cup is the new Testament in his blood now if you vnderstand by the cup not wine but reall blood it will follow
wiped away This might serue for answere of this friuolous obiection concerning the instrabilitie of Saint Austines doctrine but because it is a string much harped on let vs assay by harping whether it be a true cord or not now do you k Be like you will not know wheere vnlesse it be shewed you k This place of Austine is cleere against limbus puerorum shew me where Saint Austine doth denie purgatorie as I haue shewed you where he hath affirmed it Pro. Austine in his 14. Chapter De verbis Apostoli saith thus The Lord who shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead as the Gospel saith shall diuide them all into two parts whereof one shall bee placed on his right hand and the other on his left to those on his right hand he shall say Come ye blessed c. The one he calleth his kingdome the other damnation with the deuill there is no third place left for infants and a little after he concludeth thus if there shall be a right hand and a left since we haue none other place by the Gospel behold the kingdome of heauen is on the right hand Pa. Héere is a faire l There be fairer showes in Austine then this shew but all is not gold that glistereth S. Austine in that place hauing to deale with the Pelagians who held that children which die before baptisme should by reason of their innocencie attaine vnto eternall saluation but not vnto the kingdome of heauen and that children are to be baptized not for eternall life but for the kingdome of heauen for confutation of that heresie doth there labour to prooue that whosoeuer doth not appertaine to the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine vnto damnation his argument is this At the generall iudgement Christ shall diuide the quicke and the dead into two parts whereof one shal be on his right hand another on his left therefore children which die before baptisme must either be on the right hand to whom the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine or on the left whose portion is m That is damnation into euerlasting fire with the diuell and his Angels Mat. 25.41 I trow this is hell not limbus puerorum damnation for saith he there remaineth no third place for infants What maketh this place against purgatorie for they that doe allow low of Purgatorie doe hold also that there are but two places to wit heauen and hell and that whosoeuer shall be placed in purgatorie for a time doth notwithstanding appertaine to one of those two places for a third place they likewise doe not know behold how easie a matter it is to carpe at contrariety in any mans writings be they neuer so plaine and perspicuous n Heere the flood-gate is opened to a great deale of prophane and irreligious talke euen so doe the Iewes taxe the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and great appearance thereof there seemeth to be therein S. Iohn saith He that is borne of God sinneth not And againe in the same Epistle he saith If we say we haue no sinne we deceiue our selues and the trueth is not in vs The Bee sucketh honie and the Spider poyson take away the authoritie of the Church Councels and Fathers and leaue euery man to his owne o As though fancy had no place in Councels and fathers but only in Scriptures fancie in the interpretation of Scriptures and open the fountain of all heresie and Atheisme After your single incounter with Saint Austine you seeke to ouerthrow the credite of all the Doctors at once by taxing them with many grosse errors I graunt the doctors had their errours and imperfections so had S. Peter for S. Paul withstood him to his face and p VVe doe not say they are are your new writers of the purest stampe free trow ye much lesse are Cronographers writers of ciuil histories what then shall we q No but resolute diuines become Scepticke Philosophers what shall we not beléeue that which they do write out of their own knowledge and wherof themselues were eye witnesses and consequently shall we beleeue nothing but what we doe r Yes what we taste smell and feele too Lord what vaine chat is this heare and see If you will affoord an Historiographer any credite in these cases affoord the Catholicke doctor the like in the same case beléeue that which he writeth as an eye witnesse if not beleeue an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers of them in a matter of fact confirmed by the testimonie of their owne eyes if not yet beléeue them at the least wherein they doe produce themselues for eye witnesses and ſ All this is but impudent facing a thousand other like witnesses with them of this last sort are most of the testimonies of the doctors which I haue produced against you they write that prayers were made for the dead that sacrifice was offered for the quicke and the dead that it was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and heard and saw it done and thousands moe with them and were themselues principall agents in the doing of it Now let vs see what those errors bée wherewith you seeke to bring the auncient doctors out of credite Irenaeus held t Belike Irenaeus neuer heard any newes of Purgatory that the soules of the righteous should rest in a place for them appointed of God vntill the generall resurrection that Satan did not know his owne damnation before the comming of Christ Tertullian that second marriages were not lawfull Hilarie that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his bodie Cyprian held rebaptization and so might I passe through the rest of these and such like errors u As though they were not deliberate assertions but only scapes escaped in the writings of the fathers Erasmus alleaged a threefolde reason First the points wherein they erred were not as then called in question or if they were the Church had not as then determined of them Secondly they were constrained for the confutation of heresies to handle such high mysteries as were beyond their capacitie Thirdly in dealing earnestly against heretickes they were sometime with feruor carried into the contrarie extreame Now will I shew you the difference beeweene these and the like errours escaped in the writings of the fathers and those points of doctrine wherein I haue cited them as witnesses against you the one they deliuer as their owne priuate opinion the other set downe as a doctrine x How knew they that or you that they did so generally receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church the one is as the Prouerbe saith but one doctors opinion the other an vniforme consent of many the one the Church hath reiected the other it hath receiued and practiseth Thus y So may you see you haue sayd nothing may you see the reason why the doctors are to be reiected in the one and receiued in
eternall but to helpe out our Protestant let him take these places out of Austine against purgatorie Hypognost lib. 5. Primum locum fides Catholicocorum diuina authoritate credit regnum esse caelorum secundum Gehennam vbi omnis Apostata vel à fide Christi alienus aeterna supplicia experietur tertium penitus ignoramus imo nec esse in scripturis sanctis inueniemus The first place the Catholicke faith doth by the authoritie of God beleeue to be the kingdome of heauen the second to be hell where euery Apostota and alien from the faith of Christ shall be punished euerlastingly a third place we knew not at all neither shall we find in the holy scriptures that there is any such Againe In Ioh. tract 49. Habent omnes animae cum de seculo exierint diuersas receptiones suas habent gaudium bom mali tormenta sed cum facta fuerit resurrectio bonorum gaudium amplius erit malorum tormenta grauiora quando cum corpore torquebuntur All soules after they goe out of the world haue diuers rewardes the good haue ioy and the bad torments but when the resurrection shall come the ioy of the good shall bee greater and the torments of the bad more grieuous when they shall be tormented with their bodies Againe In Psal 32. Si texit peccata noluit aduertere si noluit aduertere noluit animaduertere si noluit animaduertere noluit punire noluit agnoscere maluit ignoscere If we haue hid our sinnes he would not see them if he would not see them he would not iudge them if he would not iudge he would not punish he would not acknowledge he had rather pardon them Againe Ad Hesick epist 80. In quo quemque inuenerit suus nouissimus dies in hoc eum comprehendet mundi nouissimus dies quoniam qualis in die isto quisque moritur talis in die illo iudicabitur In Psal 25. In what state any mans last day findeth him in the same shall the last day of the world take him because as a man dieth in this so shall he bee in that day adiudged And againe Valeat mihiad perfectionem liberationis tantum praetium sanguinis Domini mei So great a price of my Lords blood is sufficient for my perfect deliuerance Sermon 57. Adde to these if you will out of the Sermons Ad fratres in Heremo Scitole quod cum anima á corpore euellitur statim aut in Paradiso pro meritis bonis collocatur aut certe pro peccatis in inferni Tartara praecipitatur Know this that so soone as the soule is taken out of the bodie by and by it is either placed in Paradice for good deserts or else certainly cast headlong into hell for sinnes Thus haue I shewed where Austine doth denie purgatorie and though our Papist list not to heare of that side yet let me shew him likewise where Austine doubteth of purgatorie Encharid cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it be so done it is a question Ad dulcit quaest 1. lib. de fide oper cap. 16. de ciuit dei lib. 21.26 Ibid. cap. 27. Againe Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitā talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantum arbitror aratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of trueth as I suppose Againe Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideò hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione ventalia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forfitan verum est Whether things committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seeke not to conuince because perhaps it is true And againe Quis sit iste modus quae sint ista peccata quae ita impediunt peruentionem ad regnum Dei vt tamen sanctorum amicorum meritis impetrent indulgentiam difficilimū est inuenire periculosissimum definire ego certè vsque ad hoc tempus cum inde satagerem ad eorum indagationē peruenire non potui What is this manner or what be those sins which so hinder the comming to the kingdome of heauen that yet the merite of holy friends may obteine pardon for them it is very hard to find and very perillous to determine surely though I haue laboured earnestly to search yet can I not find it out vntill this time These places be sufficient to shew Austines wauering in the matter of purgatorie and if it were not for shame I would shew also where he affirmeth it because our Papist hath shewed it so sillily yea but it were a hard matter to perswade any man to credite you herein then let him credite his owne eyes let him looke vpon the places and consider of them and they I trow will be sufficient to persuade so much as you say not so I hope for Austine was a great learned man before his conuersion and after his conuersion the most learned doctor and subtilest disputer that euer flourished in the Church what then altering in iudgement is an argument of increase in learning and our Papist himselfe told vs a while agoe that to consist in errour is brutish if therefore Austine say one thing at one time and afterward vpon better triall and trauell say otherwise at another I doe not see how it can hinder his estimation much lesse proue him to haue neither learning wit nor regard of his reputation as our Papist here without either learning or wit hath concluded What if a man set downe an errour or many errours in his young dayes doubt of them in his middle age and write the cleane contrary when he is of greater yeres and experience shall he therefore be thought to haue neither learning nor wit nor regard of his reputation No friend papist it would not hurt your reputation a whit to deny that in a new booke which you affirme in this and to affirme that which you denie here and to doubt of that whereof here you seeme to be resolute remember your owne conclusion to erre is incident to mans frailtie but to persist in error is brutish Touching the quickenesse and acutenesse of Austine in disputing I easily confesse it for hee was a learned doctor and a most subtile disputer indeed yet a quicke wit doth soonest fall into contradiction and the heat of a quick disputer carieth him sometimes as our papist telleth vs out of Erasmus De Genes ad
c. and the other out of Iohn Rom. lib. 1. cap. 2. giueth the Apostles no more but Potestatē ordinis ad remittenda peccata Power of order to remit sins Thus must your papist either be at oddes with Bellarmine or else giue claues iurisdictionis the keyes of iurisdiction onely to Peter and his successors and to the rest nothing but potestatem ordinis and so consequently he must find other places besides these or else his keyes will neither open nor shut as he would haue them Wherefore let him consult with Bellarmine his master before he presume ouer farre vpon the doctrine of the Church of Rome and he will tell him that the keyes both of order and iurisdiction were giuen to Peter in these words Iohn 21.15 c. Iohn 20.21 c. Pasce oves meas Feede my sheepe and to the other Apostles in these as my father sent me so send I you and in these words to receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes yee reteine they are reteined and here note by the way how solemnely Father Bellarmine tels vs that our Sauiour in these two places gaue Summam potestatem Chiefe power to all his Apostles Sed cum quadam subiectione ad Petrum But with a kind of subiection to Peter As if summa potestas and subiectio could possibly agree together or as if Peter himselfe receaued that same high power among the rest vsed it Cum quadam subiectione ad se ipsum with a kind of subiection to himself Such ridiculous absurdities doe men runne headlong into when they are ouer hastily carried away with their owne dreames But goe too let vs intreat the Cardinall to beare with his friend and to procure him a dispensation to vnderstand these two places which he citeth after his owne liking what hath he than to say Marry then I say our sense is more literall then yours well and what saith he else Nay we say that our Sauiour by these words doth giue authoritie and commission to his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be Yea but haue they commission to forgiue sinnes wheresoeuer they find it or else in them onely that God is willing to forgiue Their commission I trow is not vniuersall to all without discretion and to dreame who it is that God purposeth to shew mercy vnto is beyond the capacitie of any man liuing Papist to Protestant he that hath a letter of Atturney from his master to giue possession of and knoweth the man to whom he is commaunded to conuey his masters interest Rom. 9.18 but our master hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will hee hardeneth neither may your popist Priest presume that hee knoweth the mind of the Lord Rom. 11.33.34 and can find out his wayes and iudgements which be insearchable and so this silly papist heere confesseth when he saith that man giueth remission to pretended penitents which God who seeth their hearts doth not ratifie now then conferre this power thus exercised hand ouer head to good and bad as papists vse it with our preaching or publishing remission to penitent sinners and then iudge whether is most like to be the better And because he bragges of the literrall sense that it makes wholly for him let him tell mee how the generall words of the Scripture whatsoeuer thou shalt bind whatsoeuer thou shalt loose whosoeuers sinnes yee remit and whosoeuers sinnes ye retaine can be literally restrained to such onely as be truely penitent if this cannot be done without a quatefication let him not bragge that his sense is more literall than ours we preach remission to all that be penitent and so open vnto them the kingdome of heauen to the impenitent Rom. 2.8 and such as contentiously disobey the truth wee denounce indignation and wrath Esay 5.14 and so shut heauen open hell wide that their glory their multitude pompe may descend into it neither can this sense seeme strange to such as be conuersant in the writings of the Fathers Thus saith Tertullian Contr. Marcion lib. 4. Esa lib. 6. cap. 14. De Cain Abel lib. 2. cap. 4. In Oper. imperf in Mat. cap. 23. Quam clauem habebant legis doctores nisi interpretationem legis What keyes had the doctors of the law but the interpretation of the law Thus Ierome Soluunt Apostoli sermone Dei testimonijs scripturarum exhortatione virtutū The Apostles doe loose by the word of God and testimonies of the Scriptures and exhortation vnto vertues Thus Ambrose Remittuntur peccata per verbum Dei cuius Leuites est interpres Sinnes are remitted by the word of God of which the minister is interpreter Thus Chrysostome Clauicularij sunt sacerdotes quibus creditum est verbum docendi interpretandi scripturas The key-keepers are the Priests vnto whom the word of teaching and interpreting the Scriptures is committed But it may be our papist by comparison of his interpretation and ours will find out the truth thus hee writes you build your faith vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or the conceit of your owne braine and we vpon the authoritie of the auncient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall Church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remaining to this day Heere is a tale told with all circumstances pressed downe and running ouer for hee might haue left out either vniuersall Church or through the whole world either continued or continuall practise or remaining to this day if he had not purposed to dazle vs with emptie wordes but is this the comparison he crakes of Now surely we must needs bee hard hearted that cannot yeeld to such comparisons can you prooue that wee build our faith vpon Luther or Caluine or our owne braine or doe you compare together our faith and yours when you compare the opinion and conceit of Luther or Caluine with the authority of the ancient Fathers Alas good Papist you cannot but know that our faith is no mans conceit or opinion and it is a shame for you to confesse that you build your faith vpon the authoritie of the Fathers or practise of the Church be it neuer so ancient I hope the fathers builded not vpon other Fathers that were their ancients but vpon the infallible word of God and what should ayle vs that we may not vse that meanes the Fathers vsed before vs you may talke long inough of Fathers and traditions and your toppe gallant Church of Rome as though no one Father sayd any thing for vs yet when you haue all done you must giue vs leaue ot we will take leaue to found our faith and religion vpon the written word of the Almightie Thus is your Popish fellowes Rhetoricke come to small effect and therefore he will now trie what his Logicke can doe Thus