Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	believe_v	church_n	interpretation_n	3,657	5	10.5181	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01042	Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A.	Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635.	1627 (1627)	STC 11147; ESTC S102413	101,942	162

must first bee assured that it is the Bryde which speaketh and not a masked Harlot vnder that name As for your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie where-vpon by accusing Scripture you would build an excuse of seeking some other Rule it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD and is also in it selfe sophisticall It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD in that CHRIST commanding to search Scripture for a cleare witnessing of Him the holie Ghost affirming by Peter that the word of Scripture is a sure and shyning word by Paul that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse to everie good worke and exhorting all men praysing in all men the diligent reading and meditation there-of there-by to discerne spirites and to prooue what is propounded vnto them that David al-most all-where speaking so divinelie of the playnnesse and power there-of as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes Yet some of your men Philomathes are not ashamed disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule and a Nose of Waxe as if the Almightie and only wyse GOD had not eyther wysely anough or lovinglie provyded for the direction of His House and that men forsooth will or can finde out a more cleare and certayne way But what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture or howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men might appeare to make it by their diversitie of Interpretations yet this should ever haue religiouslietyed vs there-to that our LORD hath left it vs for a Lanterne to our Feete and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth studying therefore with all humilitie cleannesse of heart and earnest prayer to attayne the knowledge there-of and not proudlie and rebelliouslie to take such counsell as did Israell in the Wildernesse Wee know not what is become of this Moses make vs therefore gods to goe before vs. The advyse of Augustine is much more both sound and sober than is that of your Church-men That in reading of Scripture if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense and meaning of the place at least let vs not expound that place of Scripture in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth So shall wee bee lyke to a man who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way yet hee wandreth in the Fields leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee I affirmed Philomathes that your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie was also Sophisticall and thus I cleare it All reason of obscuritie must bee eyther in the matter it selfe or in the manner of delyverie or in the weaknesse of their perception to whome it is delyvered Of divine thinges wee acknowledge that how-so-ever for most reall and constant existence they bee of all thinges the most certayne yet that for their retyred eminencie to all creatures of all thinges the most obscure But for the manner of deliverie as GOD in holie Scripture hath revealed them we affirme that all the wisdome and eloquence of all creatures even in a conceived matter could never haue found out so playne a manner or so farre and lovinglie haue attempered it to the capacitie of man as in so high mysteries and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth was possible And yet how-so-ever they bee thus delivered wee acknowledge that no naturall man and naturall onlie is capable of them For they are spirituallie discerned But the spirituall man by the Spirit of GOD in him will discerne the things of GOD. To reason then from the naturall obscuritie or retyred eminencie of the matter to the manner of deliverie or from the weaknesse of man's perception to conclude of the manner of deliverie or from the perception of the naturall man to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication We are bolde to say with the holie Ghost That how-so-ever to most part of men the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables that hearing they may heare and not vnderstand and seeing they may see and not perceiue Yet That Who-so-ever doeth the will of the FATHER they will knowe the Doctrine whether it bee of GOD or whether men speake of them-selues That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe knowe His Voyce and knowe the voyce of a Stranger Wee avouch That the wordes of Wisdome are all playne to him that will vnderstand and straight to him that will finde Knowledge That Scorner seeketh Wisdome and findeth it not but Knowledge is easie to him that will vnderstand So as if the Trueth bee hid it is hid to them whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out and whom GOD justlie eyther for misregard or pryde of mynde hath given over to the efficacie of Errour to groape even at noone day Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection of diversitie of Interpretation against this for how-so-ever manie particular places in Scripture appeare still difficill and doubtfull to vs which but know in part and prophesie in part yet wee affirme with Augustine That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture are all things to bee found which contayne Fayth and Rules of living and that nothing almost is ripped out of the most obscure parts which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken Philomathes To grant you even all that you haue sayde either of the plainnesse or plentiful●…esse of holie Scripture yet what shall you gaine there-by against our Questioner or how shall you justifie the imputations of want of Care Skill or Conscience layde on him by you seeing both our Church confesseth that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church and such Notes as are heere brought by our man hee prooveth them all from Scripture Eubulus How eyther proper or pertinent your Poet's Markes are which hee bringeth and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture or other-wayes wee shall see GOD willing in the particular examination of each where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe and that carelessie skillessie or fraudfullie hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke to seduce the simple with Topicall showes You say your Church acknowledgeth that by Scripture the true Marks of the Church are knowne But Philomathes they fall never to say so but when they are reduced to such straits as eyther they must say it or bee snared For their common Doctrine is well anough knowne which can so little consist with this which you haue now granted as the one evidentlie over-throweth the other For doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage as that therefore onlie you are sure such such to be canonicke Scriptures because the Church hath so determined Thus monstrouslie you make one and the same to bee both the Mother and the Daughter and of one Philomathes But thus you taxe Augustine no lesse than vs who affirmeth that hee would not belieue Scripture if the authoritie of the Churh did

the Wyse are lyke Goades and lyke Nayles c. which are given by one Pastour Were they not I pray you the ordinarie Church-men whom the LORD rebuked for burdening Consciences with Traditions even of Fathers And were not those Traditions where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition the Traditions of the Church Doeth not the same Father affirme That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum sicubi falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant that is Wee ought not consent no not with Catholicke Bishops if they holde a●…e opinion contrarie to the canonicke Scriptures For as Cyprian sayth Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Custome without Trueth is but Antiquitie of Errour And the Saying of Ruffinus on the Creed is notable Non dicimus Credo in Ecclesiam sed Credo Ecclesiam ne eadem vis authoritas videatur Creatoris creaturae Domini Ministrorum that is Wee say not I belieue in the Church but I belieue the Church lest one and the same might appeare to bee the power and auth●…ritie of the Creator and the creature of the LORD and of His Servantes Augustine affirmeth Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum ipsa consilia reprehendere si qua in ●…e a veritate devient That it is lawfull to repr●…oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops yea and the Councels them-selues if in anie thing they decly●…e from the ●…rueth Because hee who heareth the King his Ambassadour or Herauld heareth the King and who despyseth them despyseth the King haue eyther Ambassadours or Heraulds an●… libe●…tle heere-vpon to exceede the boundes of then Commissions and Warrandes Or haue not the parties who other-wayes are holdē to heare eyther of th●…m yet place le●…t them without anie diminution of the Soveraigne Majestie and Royall Authoritie both to aske for and to examine their Warrandes Wee haue but one LORD and one Law-giver and so only doeth the contempt of our voyce touch Him if our voyce bee the Eccho of His voyce and wee speake not out of our owne imaginations Other-wayes the manie sad and serious Warninges given vs to trye spirits were vayne Then turning speach to Philomathes Eriphilus heate for your Church Philomathes hath al-most haled mee quyte from our Question You objected That all Sects pretende Scripture I answered That all pretended not Scripture onlie for that your Church joyneth and aequalleth with Scripture her owne Devyses Nowe to divert heere farder to the Question of the Churches power in this poynt and whether shee may erre or not it were to slyde away from our present poynt and I haue disputed that matter at length in my Defence of our Callinges I giue the Case then that your Church and all others acclayming the Title did pretende Scripture onelie yet it is one thing to pretende Scripture and another to haue Scripture truelie for them It is one thing to rehearse the common Creede and another thing to holde the poyntes there-of Yea and one thing to holde them falselie and but in show and another to holde them truelie One may in worde and profession holde IESVS to haue come in the flesh and yet in effect denye it and so bee an Antichrist None can call IESVS LORD but by the Spirit of GOD sayeth the Scripture and yet the same Scripture witnesseth That not al who call Him LORD shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven If Heretickes did not pretende Scripture they could not greatlie deceiue no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle if they had not plowed with his Heyfer And this indeede were to yeelde Satan an easie victorie if because for more effectuall deceit hee maketh to cloathe him-selfe with our Weapons wee should therefore fayntlie forsake them and for-g●…e that which by our LORD is left vs for our onelie Armour Rule of our Wayes and Sole Ground and Pillar of our Fayth as sayeth Ireneus so to wander and perish in the Wildernesse of Mens Inventions Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes it is exceeding strange that your Teachers haue so farre perswaded their Disciples that reading of Scripture to Laike persons as they call them is not onelie vnprofitable for resolution but also dangerous for breeding Errours Thus verifying of themselues that saying of Ireneus speaking of Heretickes Cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum that is When they are argued by Scriptures they turne then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selues Al-be-it wee see the Bereans are highlie praysed for searching Scripture and examining there-by what was offered vnto them and their example is registrated by the holie Ghost for a permanent instruction in such case to all succeeding Ages And it is even monstrous to consider how farre your guydes haue brought their followers not onlie to neglect but even to contemne yea and condemne in Laike men the reading of holie Scripture So as I can not tell whether with greater horrour I haue often heard their disdainful speaches against Scripture or with dolour and compassion I haue perceived how some of them presuming much of Knowledge and other-wayes prowdlie peart to prattle in Controversies of Religion and to talke at Tables of some cunned and dismembred Testimonies of the Fathers yet in the Sacred BIBLE were as great strangers as in the Alcoran Philomathes If anie man eyther speake vnreverentlie of Scripture or condemne the reading there-of by Laike persons I am not to make good for that for my selfe I both reverence them and esteeme the reading of them in Sobernesse and Humilitie to all sorts of men not onlie lawfull but also profitable and necessarie Neyther did that which I objected to Eubulus tende to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture but seeing that not onlie all Heretickes pretende Scripture each drawing out there-of a Sense for corroboration of their owne Opinions but that there is also a manifolde and great diversitie of interpretation amongst all men where-through it is cleare howe doubtfull and obscure the meaning of Scripture is It would appeare that al-be-it wee haue not to forsake or despyse Scripture yet for Resolution which is the true Sense that wee must seeke some other Rule And what can that bee else but that leaving all other Interpretations wee holde that which the Catholicke Church avoucheth Eubulus Doe you not perceiue Philomathes howe agaynst all Logicke Lawes you reduce our Disputation to a Circle and so not onelie you take that for a graunted ground which is the verie poynt in question but also fall sensiblie in that same imputation which you would appeare so much to shunne Wee are disputing Which is the true Church and haue evinced That the onelie sure way to know Her is by Scripture So as of necessitie first Scripture must leade vs to know amongst common Acclaymers which is Shee before wee can resolue to follow Her interpretation I heartilie yeelde that Her interpretation be taken but in such Dispute Who Shee is wee

not mooue him Eubulus You deceiue Philomathes by concluding Theticallie and absolutelie vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth and so you vnskilfullie confound diverse Cases For first inducing of an Infidell to belieue Scripture the Authoritie of the Church is a great Motiue or rather as Augustine calleth it a Commotiue and Opportanum inquirendi exordium that is A commodious entrie to inquire by Now from this speciall Case and qualitie of Case to inferre That the man by this Commotiue first induced had still there-after no other or greater Warrand for his Beliefe of Scripture but the Authoritie of the Church which first induced him it were no better Logicke than to conclude of the Samaritanes That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth than the Report of their Woman from the Well The Authoritie of the Church may and will often induce an Infidell to reverence and belieue Scripture but so as having come thus farte then in the communitie of that Church to discerne lawfull from vnlawfull worship and orthodox from hereticall professours the Scriptures onlie must haue place as in a case where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie were extreamlie ridiculous it beeing the verie point in question what companie is the Church And I shewed you before how your men are alwayes deceived or at least labour to deceiue others by confounding the case of the Church considered absolutelie and in relation to Forraigners and Infidels and reasoning from it so considered to the decyding of debate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church In the first the common notes are discretiue and the common authoritie a commotiue to induce but in the other there is no manner of way but the Scriptures as out of the Fathers I haue cleared And now ●…lomathes to returne to our poyn●… whence this your ●…hreedbare Objection from Augustine hath driven ●…ee I pray you if your men are forced to confesse That the Markes of the Church are knowne by Scripture why flee they from having all both their Doctrine and Dealing examined by that same Rule What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this to ●…ject Scripture in the particular tryall of everie Article of Fayth and yet for a few wrested and perv●…ed Sentences where-by to proue some bastard and beg●…yling Notes therefore impudentlie to all eadge That they for sooth doe cleare their Church by Scripture As if in all Scripture the holie Ghost had but given some Notes of a Companie where to seeke our Fayth and no●… clearlie set downe the Fayth which wee haue to holde and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto Your Cardinall Bellarmine in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers nearlie pintching him namelie of Augustine is forced to flee to this which you also 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge That the Scripture indeede teacheth what are the Notes of the Church And I haue verilie reason to thanke both you and him for it If as I presume of you so hee also had eyther willinglie or ingenuouslie yeelded it And though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of for the cleare advantage I haue in it to conclude aga●…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation I am sure that 〈◊〉 ●…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●… Scho●…Man will not agaynst Na●…re ●…nd all Schooles affirme of GOD the most perfect Doctour Th●… Hee 〈◊〉 Obseuru●… p●…r obscurius that which is obscure by anie thing which is more obscure For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus that is of thinges which are by nature more notore than are those things which they are brought to notifie Thus then I conclude vpon your owne Position That which cleareth anie thing must it selfe be more cleare But the Scripture cleareth which are the Notes of the Church There-fore as the Notes where-by the Church is knowne must bee more cleare than the Church which is knowne by them So the Scripture which teacheth those Notes must bee more cleare than both The Scripture which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe truelie taught and reverentlie received is the onlie sure and evident Ensigne of the House and Flocke And who is it that knoweth not this That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours and not the Colours by the Companie Now consider Philomathes whether your mens Objections Of Scriptures obscuritie doe fall and in what vprightnesse they are propounded And whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for or rather fraudfullie to divert the Simple from the onelie Light which leadeth to it And some of your owne Wryters convinced by cleare Trueth are forced to confesse what the more impudent sort so much oppugne Andreas Fricius thus speaketh DEVS Author est Verbi Sui quod tanti facit ut Coelum Terra facilius transitura sint quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum qui authoritatem tribuit qui illud in dignitatem vindicat qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum Testimonium quidem Ecclesia Spiritu DEI aff●…ata dare potest Verbo Doctrinae hanc scilicet quam ●…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus ac●…pisset non ali●…m esse à DEO prolitam Authoritatem ver●… Illi ●…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum qui est Author illius Illustrator Defensor Propug●…ator Agayne the same Author Lib. 4. de Ecclesia Cap. 7. Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam Verbum Fundamentum est Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum Gabriel Biel Lib. 3. Sentent Distinct. 26. Scripturae canonicae absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae ex natura ●…ei sunt immutabiles immutabiliter verae Hosius in Confess Cap. 16. Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis et nos docentis So as Philomathes if you will not belieue vs yet your owne men may tell you Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe and would draw others with him in Darknesse Philadelphus Hee will haue vs to seeke after the Church as Children at Chacke-blynd-man groape after their Fellowes For first hee would picke out our Eyes or syle vs from seeing and then forsooth set vs a-searching But they who doe evill hate the Light and the Church of Rome had rather choose That this Debate were never decided than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought where-by they might bee found out who they are Through open Streete with lighted Lampe in hand A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone Where-of when one the Motiue did demand His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone 'Mongst Men more mad than Mamacks by the Moone I search sayde hee if I can finde one wyse Asse th' other sayde thyne Head is out of tune Canst thou discerne one though thou sawst him thryse But more your man is