Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
can all the Doctors Fathers or Councels in the world beget the true vnderstanding of the Scripture in any one mans heart It is the worke of the heauenly teacher that is the holy Ghost which Augustine ingeniously confesseth Sonus verborum nostrorum Tract 3. in Ioan. epist aures percutit magister intus est c. The sound of our words beateth the eares the minister is vvithin Thinke not that any man doth learne any thing of man We may admonish by the noise of our voice if there be not to teach within our noise is in vaine Will you knovv it indeed brethren Haue ye not all heard this Sermon How manie will depart hence vntaught For my part I haue spoken to all but to whom that annointing speaketh not within whom the holy Ghost teacheth not within they depart vntaught Teachings that are outward are some helpes and admonitions He hath his chaire in heauen that teacheth the hearts Thus farre Augustine Neither do we send men to any other spirit then that which teacheth in the Scriptures for euen in hearing and reading of the scriptures the spirit createth in our harts the true vnderstanding of them as our Sauiour interpreting the Scriptures to his disciples withall opened their hearts to vnderstand them and on the Sabbaoth day opening Luk. 24. 32. 44. 45. the prophecie of Esay withall he opened their hearts that they vvondered at the gracious vvords that proceeded out of his mouth And Philip began at that Scripture which the Eunuch Luk. 4. 22. Act. 8. was reading and preached to him Iesus when the holy Ghost opened his heart to beleeue and when Paul spake Lydiaes heart was opened This spirit which is the spirit of Act. 16. 14. wisedome is also the spirit of adoption and therefore as all the sonnes of God to whom appertaineth the adoption haue receiued also the spirit of adoption and he that hath not the spirit of Christ is none of his so all that are wise vnto Rom. 8. 9. Ioh. 20. 31. Eph. 1. 17. 18. saluation all that doe knowe that Iesus is that Christ the Sonne of God and by beleeuing haue life through his name haue likewise receiued the spirit of wisedome and reuelation to inlighten the eyes of their vnderstanding to knowe the things that are giuen them of God and vvhat that hope is of his calling and vvhat the riches of his glorious inheritance is in the Saints Neither is the whole Scripture so obscure as you would beare men in hand I haue before shewed you the confession of Augustine In those words which are euidentlie set downe in De doctr Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Epist 3. the Scriptures are found all those things which conteine faith and maners of life And in another place Those things which the Scripture euidentlie conteineth as a familiar friend it speaketh without obscuritie to the heart of learned and vnlearned The spirit of God not onely prouiding the Scriptures but also that the reader should meete with the true meaning of them De doctr Chr. lib. 3. cap. 27. as Augustine saith Yea but say you when euerie one must examine by the touchstone of Scripture what other do teach and so admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not agreeable with the word of God if this be not a priuat interpretation there can be none found in the world Feare you not thus to open your mouth against heauen and to call that interpretation which is grounded on the Scriptures a priuate interpretation When our Sauiour referred the Iewes to seeke witnes of himself by searching the scriptures did he referre them to a priuate interpretation when the men of Beraea searched the Scriptures vvhether those things that Paul spake vvere so or no. Did they follow a priuate interpretation By this which you call priuate interpretation Augustine exhorteth to search out the meaning of the Scriptures that for the illustrating of the more obscure De doctr Chr. lib 2. cap. 97. speaches examples be taken from the more manifest and some testimonies of certaine senses take away the doubt of the vncertaine In obscure places where the sense cannot be found by conference with other plainer places of scripture Augustine admits to giue reason to the sense we bring but saieth he This custome is dangerous it is more safe to vvalke by the diuine scriptures De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 27. vvhich standing in translate vvords when vve vvill search either let such sense be made of it as hath no coÌ„trouersie or of it haue let it be determined by the same Scripture vvheresoeuer the witnesses thereof can be found and applied Neither is this to make euery priuate vnlearned artificer iudge ouer the Scriptures but to set all both learned and vnlearned to schoole to the Scriptures from whence as Augustine saith before alleaged vve haue learned to knovv Christ and to knovv the church of Christ. But if we follow Popish guides we must learne to knowe the scriptures for the sense of the scripture is the scripture yea and Christ himselfe by the tradition of the Church and receiue such a sense of scriptures and such a Christ as Fathers and Councels by their authority shall deliuer vnto vs not hauing left vnto vs any power to trie the spirits by the Scripture the infallible touchstone of all spirits by which both Christ and his Apostles were content to Iohn 5. 39. Galat. â— 8. be tryed If this be not a priuate interpretation there can be none found in the world PAPIST To assure vs this is Canonical scripture and which is not there is no other way but to cleane vnto the authoritie of Gods Church Therefore S. Austen saieth I would not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of Gods church did not mone me And the Protestants Contr. epist. fund cap. 4. caÌ„not in this question euer giue coÌ„tent either to themselues or other if they take any other course For where do they finde in the whole Bible that S. Iames his Epistle for example is Canonical scripture is it not well knowen that Luther did reiect it But faine would I know how they can according to their principle which is to beleeue nothing but scripture proue this point against Luther out of the scripture most certaine it is they cannot and that which we say of S. Iames his Epistle may be said of any other part of the Bible if one be disposed to deny it Seeing then that there is equall danger of saluation in expounding the scriptures conâ—rarie to the true senseintended by the holy Ghost as there is in refusing that for Scripture which vvas indâ—ed by the holy Ghost vvhat man of reason can denie but that if the church doth tell vvhich is the scripture and vvhich is not that the same Church is likevvise to tell vs vvhich is the true sense of the scripture which is not We therefore that interprete them as the church teach vs haue the
scriptures indeede and the Protestants that do othervvise be destitute of the true sense of the vvord of God PROTESTANT The summe of this Argument is this Whatsoeuer meanes wee haue to knowe the Canonitall Scriptures the same we haue to know the true sense of them For there is equali danger in wrong expounding Scriptures and refusing them But there is no meanes to know the Canonicall Scriptures but by â—â—e authoritie of the Church For no man can prooue against Luther that Saint Iames his Epistle is Canonicall but by the authoritie of the Church and Austen Jaith I would not beleeue c. Therefore there is no meanes to know the true sense of the scriptures but by the anthority of the Church First then as before hath bin noted Augustine was much uerseene in his bookes De Doctr. Christ among so many meanes as he theresets downe to search find out the true sense of Scriptures to forget the authority of the Church which you will now haue to be the onely meanes Secondly in a sense it is true that the authority of Gods Church is a meanes to know both the Canonicall Scripture and the true sense thereof The Church of God doth neither giue being or authority to the Scriptures nor sense to the Scriptures but being taught of God in both giues witnesse of both to her owne children and euen to those that are without and by the ministrie and meanes of her testimonie they to whom the Scriptures were before vnknown begin to receiue them and they that haue receiued them attaine to the sense of them by that gift of interpretation which God hath giuen to his Church yet doth not Gods true Church set vp her authority in mens consciences to binde them without a better Teacher and of greater authority to receiue any thing at her handes for Scripture or to rest in her interpretation of Scriptures without tryall As Philip hauing testified to Nathanael We haue founde him of whom Moses did write and the Prophnts Iesus the sonne of Ioseph when Nathanael made doubt because he was of Nazareth doth not inforce his owne authority but bids him come see so the Church testifying of the Canonical scriptures of the true sense of them bids all men come and see Ioh. 1. 46. that is out of the Scriptures inspired of God by the teaching of the spirit to know the maiestie and authority of them after they haue beleeued the scriptures to be the vndoubtted word of God in them to search the true meaning of theÌ„ as Augustine teacheth both as he is before alleaged and in the very booke by you quoted for shewing how the Manichees teach how the Church teacheth thus he writeth Whatthinke you we must iudge or do but to forsake theÌ„ who inuite Contr. epist Fun. cap. 14. vs to know things certaine and after coÌ„mand vs to beleeue thinges vncertaine the very right description of the Popish church And follow theÌ„ who inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to looke into that when we are waxen stronger in faith we may attaine to vnderstand that which we beleeue novv not men but God inwardly strengthning and enlightning our minde Wherby that former sentence of Augustine so commonly alleaged by the Papists receiues plaine interpretation Ego non crederem c. Euery word almost in the sentence hauing a speciall signification to shew that he onely acknowledgeth the churches testimony in the beginning of his conuersion to haue beene the meanes to moue him to thinke well of the scriptures Ego that is I being a Manichee hauing not yet searched the scriptures nor hauing knowen the maiesty of the Gospell Non crederâ—m that is would not haue giuen any regard vnto nor haue beene tractable to learne as the whole booke De vtilit ate credends ad Honor aâ—uÌ„ doth shew namely cap. 9. For faith he true religion vnlesse those things De vtil creden ad ionorat cap. 15. be beleeued which if a man behaue himselfe well and be worthie he may aftervvard attaine to vnderstand vvithout some great commande of authoritie can by no meanes bee vvell entred into For as he saieth in the same booke betweene mans foolishnes and the most sincere truth of God Mans vvisedome is set as a middle thing for a vvise man is to follovve God a foolissh man is to follovv a vvise man yet as Augustine there sayeth not to put his trust in men but onely in the sonne of God the sincere eternall vnchangeable wisdome of God whereunto onely we ought to sticke who for our sakes namely to become our Teacher vouch safed to take vpon him mans nature Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 5. This most sincere wisedome Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 4. he settech in the first ranke though hauing to deale with a Manichee hee saieth he will omit to speake of it as that which holdes him without any doubting in the bosome of the Catholike church whereas in all his other motiues hee onely meaneth to shew that euen only in theÌ„ he hath better hould then the Manichees haue for their heresie For otherwise he preferreth the vndoubted proofes of scripture before the authority of the catholike Church If peraduenture saith he you can finde any thing in the Gospell verie plaine for Manichees Apostleship you shall vveaken vnto me the authoritie of the Catholikes and before if so manifest truth be shovved that Cap. 4. it cannot come into doubt it ought to bee preferred before all those things by vvhich I am held in the Catholike church 3. Catholice Ecclesiae meanes hee the Catholike church of all times or rather the Catholike church of the first times who hauing receiued the Scriptures by Apostolicall testimonie deliuered them to their posterity At whose hand Augustine receiued them not vpon their onely testimony but vpon the records of the Catholike Church of the first times which the church in his time had to shewe for the Canonicall and vndoubted Scriptures What his meaning is in this behalfe let Augustine himselfe declare Beleeue saith he this booke to be Matthewes which from that time wherein Matthew himselfe liued in the flesh by course of Contr. Faustrâ— Manich. lib. 28. cap. 2. Lib. 33. cap. 9 time not interrupted the Church through certaine succession of continuance hath brought along vnto this time And against the same heretick hee vseth a very apt comparison to this purpose there haue many bookes come forth vnder the name and title of secular authors which were neuer theirs as for example many bookes vnder the name of Hippocrates that were not his How are these descried Therefore are they refused saith Augustine because either they did not agree to those writings which were manifestly knowen to be theirs or were not acknowledged in the time wherein they wrote nor were commended to posteritie by themselues or those that were most familiar with them and specially of Hippocrates his bastard
bookes when being compared to those which were trulie knowen to be Hippocrates his owne they were iudged to be vnlike and because they were not knowen to be trulie his at the same time when the rest of his writings came to be knowne So the ecclesiasticall writings of men are no otherwise knowen whose they were but because in the times wherein euerie one wrote them he acquainted and published them to whom he could and from thence by a continued knowledge from one to another and farther confirmed they cap. 9. came to their posteritie euen to our times In like maner he concludes of the holy Scriptures If you will follow the authoritie of the Scriptures which ought to be preferred before all other follow that which from the times of the verie presence of Christ by the dispensations of the Apostles hauing beene kept throughout the whole world came commended and famouslie knowen to our times By all which it is euident that Augustine meant not to make the Catholike Church of his time the author of his beleefe touching the Canonical Scriptures but the Catholike Church of the first times who came neerest to the writing and deliuerie of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles and the Apostolike men that wrote them for whose testimonie and commendations sake the Church succeeding is also beleeued What is this to the supposed Catholike church of our daies by which you meane the Popes kingdome when euen the true Catholike church of later times neither hath nor chalengeth to her selfe any credit in this matter but as she can porduce the testimonie of the Catholike church in the first times Lastly Augustine there saith Nisi me commoueret Ecclesiae authoritas He only ascribeth to the Churches authoritie that it is a motiue and the first motiue to induce an vnbeleeuing man to thinke well of the Scriptures but hee resteth not in this motiue Hauing thus begun he proceedeth after in searching the Scripture to finde by what spirit they were written and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit as the vndoubted word of God to embrace them not man now but God himselfe inwardlie strengthening and enlightening his â—inde as he is before alleadged What makes all this for the authoritie of the Popish falsly called Catholike church to lead mens consciences into captiuitie by her interpretations or determinations either of the Canonicall Scriptures or of their sense Nay what makes this for such authoritie as vnder the Churches title you would claime to depriue Christians of any better assurance either touching the Scriptures or their sense then it receiued from the authoritie of the Church that is of men no lesse subiect to errourthen themselues But you would faine knowe how the Protestants that beleeue nothing but Scripture can by Scripture prooue against Luther that S. Iames his Epistle is Canonicall Scripture Euen in like manner as wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonicall Scripture For thinke you that that Spirit by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures doth not still breath in the same Scriptures by meanes of which Spirit the word of God Hebr. 4. 12. liueth and is mightie in operation and by that speciall vertue differeth from humane writings yea euen those that are written of Scripture matters Either then you must diuide the Spirit from the Scriptures when Gods children reade it which you cannot doe without dishonour to the Scriptures or you must needes confesse that out of the Scriptures inspired of God Gods children doe sufficiently prooue vnto their owne consciences and against all gaine-sayers that the whole Scripture and euery part thereof is Canonicall that 1 Cor. 2. 4. is a souereigne rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and maners For as the Apostles preaching so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God hath in it selfe plaine euidence of the spirit and of power that our faith should not be in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Thus out of S. Pauls Epistles wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles to be Canonicall And out of S. Iames his Epistle wee can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall and generally the whole Scripture prooues it selfe to be Canonicall and from it selfe the Church receiueth receiueth witnesse of it selfe If you be ignorant of this it is because you haue not receiued of the annointing of that Spirit by whom the Scriptures were inspired And now cease any longer to disport your selfe with this carnall question out of what Scripture the Protestants can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall The sheepe of Christ doe knowe the shepheards voice and they knowe it not by report but by it selfe they discerne it To conclude because there is danger in expounding the Scriptures contrarie to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost albeit not equall danger as in refusing the holy Scripture indited by the holy Ghost as Augustine insinuateth Confess lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater that is the approbation of Canonicall Scriptures wee dare not remit all to mens voices though they be the Church so in that wherein errours is lesse dangerous yet dangerous too that is in determining the true sense of Scriptures we dare not build our faith vpon the wisedome of men because as hath beene alleadged out of Augustne we haue learned of our Redeemer in â—â—llo hoâ—ike spem pouere to put no trust in any man but onely in the plaine euidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures which so long as we doe with faithfull prayer and humble submission to his teaching according to the promise they shall be all taught of God weare assured to be led into all truth Isa 54. 13. Iohn 6. 45. necessary to saluation which security the Papists that rest in mens authority can neuer haue PAPIST Seauenthly wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example to make the people beleeue that images are vnlawfull in Tyndals translation where Idols be forbidden vsually the word Image is placed in steed thereof and therefore in S. Iohn we find it thus traÌ„slated Babes keep your selues froÌ„ images 1. Ioh. â— 21. And for triall we will appeale to their later Bibles printed by Christopher Barker for there we read thus Little children keepe your selues from Idols PROTESTANT Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long agoe by Doctor Fulke against Martine and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds both of worthy and blessed memorie first it is so plain that the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth in the proprietie of the word signifie an image that Gregorie Martine neither can nor doth denie it Secondly as vse hath restrained the name Idoll from the generall signification to note onely wicked images and such as are abused to Gods dishonour so is it well knowen that both in vulgar and popular vse and also in the generall vnderstanding
be that Augustine being a man erred in some points and you make choice of those his errors as most suitable to your religioÌ„ yet otherwise Augustine coÌ„firme the Protestants religion by his testimonie as indeed he doth Such force is in your forcible reasons But let vs see how you proue that Augustine was of your religion in the three points aboue named Praier to Saints reuerence to relikes and pilgrimage to holie places you referre him that doubteth hereof to his 22. booke and 8 chap. De ciuitate Dei Where in your sense we finde not one of these and some not at all No one word in all that chapter of praying to Satuts and least as you do any man should falsly so conceiue Augustine in the 10. chapter following where he speaketh of the same matter still giueth this expresse caueat Nos martiribus nostris non templasicut Dijs c. We build no temples to our Martyrs as vnto Gods but memories or monuments as vnto dead men whose spirits liue with God neither doe we there erect alters vpon which we may sacrifice to the Martyrs but we offer sacrifice to God onelie the Martyrs God and ours at the which sacrifice as men of God who in his confession haue ouercome the world in their place and order they are named yet are they not prayed vnto by the Priest that sacrificeth What could be more plainly spoken against praier to Saints and who but a Papist would haue alledged Augustine for praier to Saints who hath so expresly gainesaid it Reuerent vse of the Relikes of Martyrs by honestly laying vp their bones and continuing their memories Augustine there acknowledgeth but of Popish reuerence to Relikes by kneeling kissing or trust in them Augustin hath not a syllable nay he sheweth plainly in the last words of that chap that the faith and trust of Christian was not in the Martyrs but in Christ for whom the Martyrs and namelie Stephen shed his bloud Of resorting to the memories of Martyrs Augustine there speaketh but in what sort It pleased God for confirmation of that faith wherein the Martyrs died at their memories to do many miracles where God lifted vp the signe of his power thither the faithfull resorted what is this to your Popish Pilgrimage to Relikes Shrines whereof there is now no certainty whose they were nor any miracles wrought by the power of God where they are and if the true Relikes of true Martyrs were there yet to suppose more holines there or more ready acceptaÌ„ce with God or accesse vnto him there then in other places is contrary to the expresse rule of our Sauiour Christ in the 4. of Iohn wherefore Iohn 4. 21. 23. the cause of such resort now ceassing and being indeed not needfull as Augustine in the entrance of that chapter saith that before the world did beleeue Miracles were necessarie that the worlde might beleeue but now whosoeuer inquireth after strange wonders that he maie beleeue is himselfe a strange wonder who when the world beleeueth himselfe beleeueth not The cause I say ceasing the effect ceaseth as when God left to sende downe Manna the people gaue ouer looking after it neither did the godly Israelites looke any longer to the brasen serpent then while it was erected by Gods appointment for them to looke on that they might bee healed To conclude for Prayer to Saints reuorence to Relikes Popish Ios 5. 12. pilgrimage to holy places in your sense and as you practise them Augustin in al that chapter hath not one word Let Numb 21. 8 9. vs now see how happie you are in the rest that speede so ill in these PAPIST Againe the cause is so cleere that our Aduersaries do confesse it as might be shewed in manie questions two or three will I speake of Caluine cannot denie but that blessed Monica S. Augustines Inst lib. 3. cap. 5. Sec. 10. mother desired to haue her soule praied for that her son satisfied her request accordingly These be his words Augustine in his book of CoÌ„fessions telleth how that his mother Monica earnestly requested to be remembred at the Altar at such times as the mysteries were in celebrating a doating request which her sonne did not examine according to the rule of Scripture and a little before in the same place thus whereas my aduersaries quoth he obiect against me that it was a receiued custome 1300. yeares past to pray for the deade I likewise demande of them what worde of God what reuelation what example they had so to do out of which words we see how hee confesseth that the Primitiue Church beleeued as we do about Praier for the dead which is the thing that here I intend to proue And though malapertlie he contemneth them all as though forsooth they wanted the word of God yet what man of reason and iudgment can thinke that they lacked sufficient warrant for that their beleefe and common practise whatsoeuer he saith to the contrarie PROTESTANT Your Aduersaries do confesse that Augustine did fauour allow some kind of praier for the dead but your aduersaries deny that Augustine allowed praier for the dead as now the Popish Church doth hold and teach it For first touching Purgatory Augustine resolueth not certainly whether there be any or no the summe of that he saith comes to no more De ciu Dei lib. 21. cap. 26. then this I reproue it not because peraduenture it is true or if he do resolue any thing it is quite against it as there is no middle place for anie that he may be any where but with the diuel De pen. merit remiss that is not with Christ Againe The first place the faith of Catholikes by diuine authoritie beleeueth to be the kingdome of heauen The second hel Of any third we are vtterly ignorant nay we caÌ„not Hypognost lib. 5 find it in the holie scriptures your popish praiers for the dead supposing that there is a Purgatorie either Augustines praier for the dead was another matter then your Popish praier to wit a well wishing to them out of the charity of the liuing not amending the condition of the dead but testifying the hope that the liuing faithfull haue of that mercy which the dead in the Lord find with him expressed by this wishing praier so he affirmeth in his praier for his mother Monica And I beleeue that thou hast alreadie done that which I aske of Conses lib. 9. cap. 13. thee but o Lord approue the voluntaries or vvishes of my mouth or else Augustine had no better resolutioÌ„ touching this prayer then he had touching Purgatorie which is none at all as appeared by the slender proofe he makes thereof aledging only the book of Macchabees not allowed of the auncients for Canonical scripture as not greatly trusting to that flying De cura promâ—r cap. to the authority of long continued custome and he is so doubtfull of the matter that he dare not
himselfe the mercie of God forgiuing his sinnes and haue his conscience in regard of those sinnes still troubled It is therefore vntrue and sheweth want of faith that you say you thinke all the sinnes that come to minde should trouble a Christian mans conscience And yet it agreeth well with your Popish spirit which is the Spirit of bondage and not of adoption of feare and not of promise We say indeed that death is the Rom. 8. 15. 6 23. wages of all sin and therefore all sinne is mortall and damnable but we say that no sinne shall be laide to the charge of Gods Rom. 8. 33. 34. chosen whom none shall condemne because God himselfe iustifieth them Christ died and rose againe for them Secondly you obiect that the same scripture which commandeth the confession of some sinnes commandeth as well the confession of all It is very true that the scripture commandeth to confesse all sinnes but to God Of confession to men there is no other commandement but generall Confesse your sinnes one to another and pray one for another Which Iames 5. 16. giues as much authority to euery brother as to a Priest to heare confessions For of confession in the eare of a Priest you can shew no tittle in the scripture Howbeit as by the aduise and counsell of holy Scripture Christians are taught to ease their oppressed consciences into the bosoms of their faithfull brethren to the end they may be partakers of their comfort and prayers so we thinke it also a godly course and a ready meane to find comfort if the sheepe of the flocke do open their woundes to their pastor who hath wisdome and faithfulnes to powre in wine and oile that is to minister vnto them the word of admonition and consolation and this is the meaning of our Communion booke but what is this to Popish Eare shrift Yea but the booke prescribeth also how after confession the Priest must absolue him and the maner of words You shoulde haue dealt faithfully if you had set downe the whole truth Our booke appointeth the Priest first to pray vnto our Lord Iesus Christ that he would grant vnto the sicke person truely repenting and beleeuing in him forgiuenes of all his sinnes as acknowledging it to be the onely right of the Lord Iesus Christ to forgiue sins Secondly presupposing the sicke man truely to repent and to beleeue in Christ it appointeth the Priest by the authority of our Lord Iesus Christ who hath left power to his Church to absolue repentant sinners which power is theÌ„ executed by the Priest to absolue the sicke from all sinnes To absolue I say not to forgiue For Christ onely forgiueth as our booke there vnderstandeth forgiuenesse and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and is interpreted by the Prophet Dauid Psalme 32. 1. 2. By couering and not imputing sinnes The Church by her ministers absolueth that is declareth to the repentant and beleeuing by authority of Christs promise Sent. lib. 4. Dist 18. Nec ideo seq that their sinnes are forgiuen So saith Peter Lombard This truelie we maie saie and thinke that onelie God remitteth and reteineth sinnes and yet hath giuen power to his church to binde and loose but he bindeth and looseth after one sort and the church after another For he bindeth by himselfe onelie so hee forgiueth sinne because he both clenseth the soule from the inwarde blot and looseth it from the debt of eternall death But he hath not granted so much to the Priests to whom he hath onelie giuen power to bind and loose that is to shew that â—en are either bound or loosed And Bonauenture in his disputes vpon it expounding the words of Ambrose Sacerdos officium exhibet â—ed nullius potestatis iura exercet That is the Priest executeth his office but exerciseth not the right of anie power writeth thus For Ambrose meanes to saie that sinnes are said to be remitted of the Priest not in manner of a doer but in manner of a minister Against both Ambrose Non per modum efficientis sed per modum ministrantis Conâ—â—l â—rid Sess 4. cap. 6. can 9. and your Maister of the sentences your Tridentine councell crieth Anathema giuing to the Priest in their sacramentall absolution not a bare ministrie to pronounce and declare but a iudiciall act whereby the sentence is pronounced by him as by the Iudge So making the comfort of him that is absolued to depend not onely vpon Christs promise but vpon the person of the Priest absoluing which is farre from the doctrine or meaning of our Church either in the Communion booke or any where else And therefore what affinity soeuer bee betweene your Latine words and our English there is no affinity betweene that comfortable absolution which our booke appoineth Gods minister in the name of Christ to publish to the humble and repentant sinner and your Popish and Pharisaical absolution Lastly this order of confession and absolution as they are set downe in the communion booke is indeede some part of the practise of our relition but no principle of our religion and therefore you do much abuse your Clients when you make them beleeue that this and other orders are any of the principles of our religion PAPIST Thirdly the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme why then is it not likewise lawfull in other things What word of The signe of the Crosse Images God willeth the one and forbiddeth the other and if the signe of the Crosse be good why not also other images especially of Christ crucified That teâ—t which they can bring to iustific the one vvill also serue for the other and that which they shall alleage to ouerthrovv the image of the Crucifixe will giue small rest to the signe of the Crosse PROTESTANT It is false that you say that the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme That signe by the ordinance of the booke hath nothing to do in Baptisme It is onely made a signe of confession after Baptisme which vse our Church hauing receiued as continued from antiquitie in that manner without interruption considering how notably it serued the faithfull in old times to manifest their confession of Christ crucified thought meete still to retaine But as for reuiuing any other vse of it after so long disuse our Church thought it might rather tend to superstition then to edification the rather because your Popish confidence in such bodily exercises had greatly corrupted the primitiue simplicitie of the vulgar vse thereof among the first Christians There is no word of God that willeth the vse of it nor anie word of God that I know that forbiddeth the bare vse of it It grew out of a desire the faithfull had to testifie before the enemies of Christ their faith in Christ crucified In the vse thereof it seemeth they felt further comfort not hauing confidence in the
it may appeare that from the beginning vnto the present time wherein this noueltie sprang vp this point of originall sinne hath beene so constantlie kept within the faith of the church c. Howbeit the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes Likewise ad Bonifac. cont duas epist Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done but also out of the bookes of holis men who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation great glorie to bring some documetns or euidences not for that the authoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes but to admonish such who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scriptures haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men In like maner vsing S. Augustines words we say to you We thinke it a part of our charge not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures which alwayes we doe in the first place but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat the before your nouell and vaine boasting the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures haue taught as wee doe Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers Other points saith he there are about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pelag lib. 1. among themselues alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith and in some one matter some say better and more trulie then others But this about which we now deale belongeth to the very foundations of faith speaking of originall sinne in children When following Augustines example you first alleadge Scripture and then annexe the consent of Fathers as treading in the steps of the Scriptures wee will honour the Fathers iudgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow This is all which Augustine did or requires others to doe Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of originall sinne spread ouer all men and hauing receiued it from their Fathers so deliuered it to their posteritie Doth it follow that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally because they did constantly teach it You heard the contrary out of Augustine before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie They all found it before any of them deliuered it Where did they finde it but in the Scriptures The consent of Fathers may helpe to vnderstand the Scriptures but it is no rule to vnderstand them by but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent Lastly Paul indeed saith that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers that we should not be caried about with euery vvind of doctrine but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ This is my well-beloued sonne heare him Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man but by Iesus Christ yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul to challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers as Pastors and Doctors you meane by that sleight cunningly to conuey it to your selues But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the proportion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit but to trie them because manie false prophets are gone out into the world and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors It will be sayd vnto vs that we had Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ◠19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets that we were commanded to search the Scriptures that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell and declared my words to my people then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes To conclude we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs not because we haue heard it of them but because we are so taught in the Scriptures as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report but because they had heard Christ himselfe Ioh. 4. 41. 42. PAPIST They obiect and say that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures and captiously they demand whether it be better to follow the openions of men that might erre and be deceiued or the sentence of God himselfe that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceiued But answer is soone returned that the question betwixt vs and them is not as they would make simple people beleeue whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit but that which I wish al diligētly to note whether for the interpretation true sense of the scriptures we should not rather beleeue the anciēt holy and learned Fathers then those that liue in our daies so far frō the◠Apostles age neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church Let the question be propounded thus then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter PROTESTANT As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first and then of
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
of all godly Christians that dote not vpon Popish idols the name mage either to represent God or to worship God or Saint withall is become as odious as the name Idoll and nothing diuerse from it And because the notorious idols of Poperie are in their language called images and holy images being indeede most accursed idols not without good cause did that religious Translator turne the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into Iusages in English that English men might beware of Popish images which are Idols Neither is the alteration of the terme in a later translation any correction of the former but a variation onely intending still still the terme Idols to extend it selfe to Popish images as well as heathenish as you Papists and all men doe well enough perceiue and know Thirdly your owne vulgar translation hath Filioli custodite vos a simulachris which what is it else in English but Babes keepâ— your selues from images For howsoeuer you shift about this word also and would haue the true notation of it giuen by Lactantius that it hath his name à similitudine that De Orig. erro lib. 2. cap. 2. is of likenesse and is all one with imago animage for so Lactantius manifestly confounds it and will needs haue it come onely à simulando of counterfeâ—ting or feming yet this poore shift will do you little good For euen this counterfeiting is not without likenesse whether the matter counterfeited haue a true being or a false The strange picture whereof Horace speaketh De arte poetica made with a womans head a horse necke with other parts borowed of other creatures and lastly a fishes taile though it be no likenesse of any thing that hath a being yet is it a likenesse if of no more then of the Painters fansie Simulachrum therefore when you haue sayd all you can is an image and so much Doctor Fulke hath proued vnto you out of sundrie Authors As lawfully Against Greâ— Mattia cap. 1. sect 5. then might Tyndall translate from images as your vulgar à simulachris Lastly your vulgar translation hath in the second commandement Exod. 20. Similitudinem Lakenesse of any â—â—g which in the Hebrew is Temunah Arias Montanus translateth the same word Imagmem an image Deut. 4. 6. and your owne vulgar in the same place Non vidistus aliquam similitudinem in die qua locutus est vobiâ— Dominus in Oreb de medio ignis â—â— forte decepts faciatis vobis sculptam similitudinem â—ut imaginem omnium Iumentorum You savve no likenesse in the day vvherein the Lord spake vnto you out of Oreb out of the middest of the fire least you being deceiued make unto you any grauen likenesse or any â—mage of any beast c. And August Quest super Exod translateth the second Commandement thus Non facies tibi idôlum neque vllum simulachrum quaecunque in coelo sunt sursum wherehy it appeareth first that siâ—ulachrum imago differ not and therefore the vulgar translating simulachris we may translate images Secondly that God in the second commandement commandeth to make no image and therfore againe the Apostles dehortation being deduced out of the second Commandement Tyndall translated well and according to the â—Apostles meaning Babes or little children keepe your selues from Images Now then to what streits you are driuen that you haue no otherâ— way to maintaine your Imagerie and worshipping of Images then by such nice distinctions of imago and simulachrum of Imago and idôlum betweene which the Scriptures put no difference if your authenticall translation and Arias Montanus doe rightly translate I appeale to your owne consciences if you haue not sold them to maintaine idolatrie as Ieroboam did himselfe and to the indifferent iudgement of all that are not partiall PAPIST Likewise to bring the Shrines of Martyrs and holy reliques in contempt and to make simple people beleeue that it is an heathenish custome they translate thus in the said old Bible Demetrius a siluer smith that made siluer shrines for Diana Malitious corruptioÌ„ for in the text there is no mention of siluer shrines but of siluer temples and to the fore said later Bible truly translateth See hovv they can accommodate their Bibles to the time For when Images and shrines were yet standing in England or fresh in memorie they fitted their translations accordingly PROTESTANT To this pidling quarrell little answer needs The word in that place is rather to be vnderstood of some coine wherein the Image and temple of Diana was stamped then of any Temple or Shrine yet did not the old Translator without authority so translate For therein hee followed Homil. 42. in Act. Chrisostome who coÌ„ceiueth that they may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Little Shrines But there is no neede to inforce this place against your idolatrie to Shrines of Saints and Relikes the Scriptures do largely affoord reasons proofes against it your seruice you do vnto theÌ„ your annexing of power and grace vnto them your trust you put in them are so many so grosse idolatries that without streyning any one place of Scripture the first and second commandement do aboundantly condemne them PAPIST As in these points the old translation is corrupt and the later better so in other things the later is false and the former true for example thus they translate Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Act. 2. 27. graue Malitious corruption against the descending of Christes soule into hell For it is contrarte to the originall text and the former translation of Tyndal PROTESTANT This cauilling obiection hath beene often made by you Papists and often answered as all men know and therfore it may seeme a vaine labour to trauaile in satisfying them that will accept no satisfaction Howbeit for their sakes that peraduenture haue seene your obiection but haue taken no paines to vnderstand the answere I will briefly set it downe if at least they will vouchsafe to heare it First therefore you cannot be ignorant that the Hebrue word Sheol doth in that tongue properly signifie the graue as the learned interpreters of that tongue do obserue and Doctor Fulke against Gregorie Martine hath maintained Pagnine giues that interpretation first as the naturall proprietie of the word and accordingly translateth Gen. 42. 38 Et descendere facutis meam canitiem cum dolore ad sepulchrum You will bring my gray head with sorrow to the graue And in this very place Psalm 16. 10. Quoniam non derelingues aniâ—ans meam in sepulchre Thou wilt not leaue my soule in graue And so likewise in other places as Gen. 37. 35. Iob. 17. 13. 1 King 2. 9. c. In all which places Arias Montanus altereth not his translation and your Louanian Censors haue approoued it Is it malitious corruption in our translations and not in yours Secondly by the interpretation of Peter and Paul Act. 2. 31 33. 13. 35. 36. 37. The Prophet here spake of Christs resurrection but
would haue all Papists so to do because you make reckoning that the more desperat they grow herein the more neere and apt they are to rebellion and trayterous attempts but yet rather then altogether to driue them from you you will moderate the rigor of your faith in this point and permit them to serue the times alwaies prouided that you be sure of their hearts and that they faile you not when opportunity serueth as appeared in the faculty granted to Parsons and Campiaâ— But marke what this forcible Reasoner saith Such doctrine to wit as this faculty conteineth is deuised only for the cold coÌ„fort of such as loue the world to much Howsoeuer the Pope dispense with Church Papists this Ghostly Father and such like tell them that such dispensations are but cold comfort so slender reckoning they make of them that they call them no better then Temporizers and such as frame their consciences to the lawes and finally such as loue the world too much If the Popish faith were the true Christian faith no doubt this reprehension were iust It behooueth therefore all seduced Papists to trie the Popish faith by the word of God whether it be the true faith or not I speake not of those Catholike points of faith which the popish Synagogue holdeth in common with the church of Christ but of that Apostasie which is risen vp in the Church and vnder the collour and name of the Church to beguile the vnstable and vnbeleeuing Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour Christ which Matth 7 15. Operam perfect 10 Matth. 7. hom 19. come vnto you â—â— Sheepes clothing but inwardlie they are reuening wolues Christians saith Chrysostome are rightly called sheepe but the sheeps garment is the shew of christianitie A wolfe many times weares a sheeps garment that is makes a couÌ„tersait shew of religioÌ„ in seÌ„blance either of those works that being rightly done are the workes of sheepe or of the practise of that religioÌ„ which is the religioÌ„ of sheep Counfait almes saith Chrisostom is a sheeps garment but not a sheeps worke Counterfait praier is a sheeps garment but no sheeps worke Counterfait fasting is a sheepes garment but no sheepes worke So are all other shewes of pietie wherwith rauening wolues cloth theÌ„selues The Popish agents make great vaunts of almes prayer and fasting by boasting of good things to insinuate them selues into honest mindes This ostentation is nothing else but a sheepes garment Againe in practise of religion they make a greate shew and thereby dazell the eies of the ignorant for to vse the words of Chrysostome out of their simplitie and zeale but not according to knowledge thus they say How can I say that he is no christian whom I see to confesse Christ to haue an Altar to offer the sacrifice of bread and wine to read the holy scriptures to haue all the order of priesthood Wherevnto Chrysostome maketh this answere That euen an Ape hath the members of a man and in all things like a man shall we therefore say that it is a man So likewise Heresie hath and imitateth all the misteries of the church but Heretikes are not the church yea saith Chrisostom they shew to be grounded christians they haue their churches nay they gouerne churches yet openly anaucentiously subuert them yea they are so multiplied that christians seeme rather to bee wonderers or deceiuers then they yet are they inwardly rauening Wolues because they seeke not to saue but to destroy Christians as the nature of the VVolfe is Hitherto Chrysostome hath set forth the faire and deceiueable shewes that false Prophets make both of their works and of their faith wherein they would seeme to be sheepe but are indeed rauening Woolues Now let vs see what aduise he giues to beware of them and to trie them By their fruites yee shall knowe them The fruite of a man saith Chrysostome is the confession of his mouth and the worke of his conuersation If therefore thousee a Christian man consider by and by whether his confession agree with the Scriptures if it doe he is a true Christian but if it be not as Christ hath commaunded he is a false Christian For so Iohn writing in his Epistle of heretikes said not If anie man come vnto you not hauing the name of Christ Say not vnto him God speed but if any man bring not this doctrine He reserred the triall of Christianitie not to the name of Christ but to the Confession because not only the name maketh a Christian but also the truth of Christ for many walke in the name of Christ but few in his Truth Then coÌ„ing to the works of conuersation Doth a sheep saith he at anie time persecute the Wolfe or rather the Woolfe the sheepe So Cain persecuted Abel and not Abel Cain Ismael Isaac and not Isaac Ismael Esau Iacob and not Iacob Esau the Iewes Christ and not Christ the Iewes heretikes Christians and not Christians heretikes Therefore by their fruites yee shall knowe them For if a Woolfe be couered with a sheepes skinne how shall a man knowe him but either by his voice or by his deede In which comparison you may there see how Chrysostom proceedeth farther A litle after he saith But what fruits do they bring forth wounds troubles other mischiefs As a thorne or a bramble of what side soeuer you view it hath prickles so of vvhat side soeuer you consider the seruants of the diuell they are full of iniquities If he speake he speakes deceitfullie if he holde his peace he museth of euill If he be angrie he is mad if he deale patientlie he vvaiteth for a time to hurt and considereth of some opportunitie vvhen he may doe mischiefe If he do euill he is not ashamed â—f he doe vvell hee doth it for vaine glorie because of men Thus farre Chrysostome Briefly to make Application The Popish Church is of great authoritie euen for the very names sake of the Church with all seduced Papists Their ostentation of almes prayer and fasting makes a great shew in their eies Their confession of Christ their altars their pretended sacrifice their baptisme their reading of Scriptures and shew of Fathers their priestly order do seeme to be infallible signes of a true Church Howbeit as you haue seene Chrysostome affirmeth that heretikes haue all these yet are they no more the true Church for these then an Ape is a man for the resemblance he hath of the parts of mans body Their multitude especially considering the reach of long time makes many suppose it impossible that they should be false Churches Yet Chrysâ—stome sheweth that heerein heretikes are so farre before Christians that Christians rather seeme to be deceiuers or new vpstart and vagrant persons What then is to be done to discerne them Try them by their fruits that is the confession of their faith and the workes of their conuersation And how shall we trie the confession of their faith by the Scriptures