speake Aut verò congregatione synodi opus erat vt aperta pernicies damnaretur quasi nulla haeresis aliquando nisi Synodi congregatione damnata sit cum potius rarissimae inveniantur propter quas damnandas necessitas talis extiterit multoque sint atque incomparabiliter plures quae vbi extiterunt illic improbari damnarique meruerunt atque indè per caeteras terras devitandae innotescere potuerunt Was it necessarie a Councell should be gathered to condemne open mischiefes as if no heresie had beene condemned without a Councell whereas very few are found for the condemning of which there hath bin such necessitie and there are without comparison moe which deserued to be condemned where they did spring vp that being so condeÌ„ned they might be made known vnto other countries Out of this testimonie I gather these two things first that it may be an heresie though not condemned by a Councell secondly I gather that in Augustines time there were few heresies for the condemning of which Councells were gathered together To proceede You say whosoeuer were condemned by Councells confirmed by the See Apostolicall were euer deemed and indeede were heretikes What say you to Cyprian De vnico lap cap. 14. whom as Augustine reporteth Stephanus Bishop of Rome censuit excommunicandum esse deemed to be excommunicated 8. book 4 chap. Bellar. lib. 2. de con cap. 5. Eusebius saith that scripsit vniuersis conterminis gentibus he wrote to all countries that were neare that he would not communicate with them because they did rebaptize heretikes Was Cyprian either an heretike or of that minde that whatsoeuer the Pope did condemne was heresie why did he not then yeild to Stephanus who was Pope For I thinke you meane by the See Apostolike the Pope otherwise you condemne Eugenius who saide as Aeneas Sylvius reporteth that tantum aebest vt generalibus Concilijs debeat obedire vt se dicat tunc maximè mereri cum concilij decreta contemnit It is so farre from him that he should obey generall Councells that he doth then best deserue when he doth contemne the decrees of the same But I reduce your Argument into a syllogisme They which are condemned by the Councell of Trent are heretikes But the Protestants are condeÌ„ned by the Councell of Trent Ergo they are heretikes I denie the proposition for it is against all reason that they which are parties that are partiall that are accused should be the onely iudges Augustine saith Solis Canonicis scriptis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum I ought to consent onely to the Canonicall scriptures without any refusall De nâ—t grat â— Nicolaus de Clemangijs writeth that Ecclesia quandoque contraria determinat the Church doth sometimes determine contraries in Fas vâ—ta ex Againe Trita regula est ecclesia militans fallit fallitur it is an old rule the Church militant doth deceiue and is deceiued Gregorie his speach who saith that he doth reuerence the foure first Councells as the foure Gospels de alijs suspitionem in animis hominum relinquit leaueth a suspition in the minds of men of other Councels Saith the same man the councell of Neocaesaria condemned second marriages this is not confessed by Bellarmine in his tractate of councells least he should graunt that Councells may erre But in his first booke of marriage and 17. chap. he writeth that Concilium tractat de secundis nuptijs qua contrabuntur mortua priore vxore the Councell doth entreat of second marriages which are made the former wife beeing dead Hence I thus conclude That Councell which condemneth second marriages erreth but this Councell condemneth second marriages ergo And touching your Tridentine conuenticle why doe not your men stand to the decrees of the same Arias Montanus reiecteth the bookes from the bodie of the holy bible which we doe Catharin teacheth that a man may be certen of grace yet these opinions are condemned in your chapter of Trent if we beleeue Bellarmine Againe if your chapter of Trent teacheth rightly of originall sinne why doth the same Catharin teach that it is nothing els but Adams actuall transgression and disobedience Noli esse tam iniustus be not so vnequall M. Doctour to binde vs with your councell of Trent when your owne men dissent from the same Where you say that we shall vtterly vanish away because we haue no head to gather a generall Councell I acknowledge you to be a false and no true prophet We see the fall of Babylon daily more and more and the madnesse of them that seeke to vphold her daily more and more manifest You say also that we receiue fixe Councells â—hem Act. 15. yet your fellows maruell that we attribute much to the foure first and nothing to the rest it were good for you to agree amongst your selues before you charge vs with errour Lastly the libertie of our Gospel is such as Gods word doth teach 1â— epist ego saith Augustine solis eis scripturarum libris I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour onely to the canonicall Scriptures that no author of them can erre The 10. reason Fathers The Doctour in the beginning of this chap. proijcit ampullos casteth out loftie and arrogant words after this manner The Catholike Romane religion is most plainly taught by all the ancient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixt hundred yeares and hath beene euer without controuersie taught of the fathers of euery age since vntill this day This proud bragge I haue disprooued before by many testimonies and now by Gods helpe I will make it manifest to boyes Theophilus Alexandrinus is plaine against traditions in his 2. paschal sermon he writeth thus Daemoniaci est spiritus instinctus aeliquid extra scripturarum authoritatem putare divinum it is the instinct of a deuillish spirit to thinke any thing diuine without authoritie of scriptures what spirits then haue Papists but deuillish spirits who fight for their trash of traditions Caesarius is as plaine for reading of the Scriptures in his 20. homilie he taketh away the excuse commonly vsed for not reading the same Nemo dicat non mihi vacat legere Let no man say I am not at leisure to read the Scriptures Inanis invtilis est excusatio ista this excuse is vaine and vnprofitable Marke the Eremite hath written a booke against those which thinke to be iustified by works in which booke this notable sentence is extant Regnum coeloruÌ„ non est merces operuÌ„ sed gratia domini fidelibus servis praeparata the kingdome of heauen is not the wages of workes but the grace of God prepared for faithfull seruants In his booke de baptisme of baptisme he teacheth the same Mandata ipsa non tellunt peccatum hoc enim per solam crucem factum est sed donata nobis libertatis limites custodiunt The commandements take not away finne for that is done onely by the
and other cleargie orders they haue baptisme the Eucharist and all other things He proceedeth affirming that the church was in times past knowne by miracles but now they are either ended or els in greater number with false Christians yea he auerreth that a man might know by the liues of men which was the true Church but now Christians were worse then either hereticks or Ethnicks If this worke were written by an Arrian as some say yet there is no cause to condemne this excellent sentence prooued by so weightie reasons The eight reason Scriptures We haue finished by Gods assistance seuen Reasons some of which as the Doctour seemeth to graunt are nothing worth without Scripture and therefore he saith that they teach not any doctrine but such as is deriued out of the holy Bible If you would abide by this confession you would not hold so many vnwritten opinions as you doe For adoration of Images for the halfe communion for the Popes not erring for the lent fast with other points of Poperie what scripture is there It is one of your principles Cens Colon. that traditiones ecclesiae non scriptae credendae ac seruandae sunt vnwritten traditions are to be beleeued and kept Hence I conclude after this manner They which hold opinions by vnwritten traditions deriue not all their opinions out of the scriptures But the Papists hold some opinions by vnwritten traditions Ergo. But good M. Doctour are we driuen to denie certaine parts of Gods holy Bible for the maintaining of our opinions and are the Manichees our predecessours take heede least by auouching vntruths you doe vastare conscientiam make shipwracke of conscience If Luther reiected the epist of S. Iames what is that to vs Caietane will haue it to be minoris authoritatis quam caeteras Bell. lib. 1. cap. 17. 2. booke 23. of lesse authoritie then the other epistles Eusebius saith sciendum est eam esse adulterinam we must know that it is a bastard epistle Euseb 3.22 cap. Now I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which refuse bookes of Scripture frame that bible to their opinions But the Protestants refuse bookes of Scripture Ergo. I denie the assumption which is set downe without any proofe and for the disproofe of the same I will not content my selfe with a few fathers but will produce a cloud of witnesses that the Papists may see their proud bragge of fathers Origen at Eusebius speaketh thus Euseb hist 6. booke 24. Hand ignorandum fieret esse veteris testamenti libros sicut Hebraei tradunt viginti duos qui etiam numerus apudeos est literarum We must vnderstand that there are 22. bookes of the old Testament as the Hebrewes doe teach which also is the number of letters Hence I gather that if the Canonicall bookes answer the hebrew letters then there are but 22. otherwise there should be more then the letters are Melito numbreth the same bookes which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome as witnesseth Eusebius 4. book 25. Cyril of Ierusalem in his 4. catechisme exhorteth the Catechumenes to read 22. bookes but that he reckneth Baruck with Ieremie he reckneth the same which we doe and directly warneth vs vt cum Apocryphis nihil habeamus negotij that we haue nothing to doe with Apocryphal bookes for saith he multò prudentiores te religiosiores fuerint Apostoli primi Episcopi veritatis duces qui nobis eas tradiderunt the Apostles and first Bishops were wiser and more religious then thy selfe they deliuered these scriptures to vs. Leontius in his 2. action of sects agreeth with these authors saying that veteris scripturae libri sunt viginti duo there are 22. bookes of the old testament Innilius reiecteth the Machabees from diuine scripture quoniam apud Hebraeos super hac differentia recipiebantur libri Canonici sicut Hieronymus alijque testantur because with the Iewes the canonicall bookes were receiued with this difference as Ierome and other writers witnesse He reiecteth Iob and some other bookes which are Canonicall by his owne reason namely because they were of that authoritie with the Iewes Amphilochius differeth not from the aboue named writer after that he hath set downe the same number which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome which yet it may be but put in for verse because he reckneth but three of Salomon after I say he concludeth thus hic verissimus divinitus datarum est scripturarum Canon this is the most true Canon of the diuine scriptures Ruffinus in his exposition vpon the Creede saith that he will describe the Canonicall bookes of the olde testament which he doth after our order in England and acknowledgeth that non Canonicos libros legi voluerunt in ecclesiis sed non proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandaÌ„ they wil haue the books that are not Canonicall to be read in Churches but not to be aleadged to confirme a matter of faith I will not produce the testimonies of Hierome Epiphanius Nazianzen Athanasius and others because they are obvious to euery one neither will I conuince the Doctour by his owne writers as Caietan Hugo and Arias Montanus Iosephus is worthie to be heard who plainly teacheth that duo solum viginti libri fide digni esse creduntur Euseb 3. lib. hist â—0 onely 22. bookes are to be credited By this cloud of witnesses I hope Christian Reader thou maist see the vanitie of Papists who doe nothing but crepare patres patres crie the fathers they are on their side I returne the Argument They which adde bookes to diuine scriptures draw the holy Bible to their fancies But the Papists adde whole bookes to diuine scriptures Ergo Where he saith that the Catholikes follow the bible I will not stand vpon that famous corruption of the Hebrew psalter by an English Papist to iustifie their vulgar latin text but come to one place out of which they would gather purgatorie Where it is said that a certaine sinne shall not be forgiuen neither in this world Math. 11. nor in the world to come we expound it by Marke who saith it shall neuer be forgiuen the Papist saith Matthew must not be expouÌ„ded by Marke because he is shorter but is he not plainer How absurd is it to expound these words â—ell lib. 1. de into cap. 4. he hath neuer forgiuenes to this sense whereas to expound the words of Matthew by Marke hath an excellent construction Thus euery man may see who draw the scriptures to their fancies whether Papists or Protestants The 9. reason Councells Whether the Church of God hath euer bin accustomed when any heresie did spring vp therein to gather a Councell of Bishops Prelates and other learned men I will not stand to dispute If your meaning be M. Doctour that nothing is heresie but that which is condemned by a Councell Lib. 4. cont dâ—â—s epist Pelag. in fine I vtterly renounce your vaine conceit Let Augustine
epist 1. ad Cor. cap. 7. But let Erasmus speake concerning this matter Qui sit how commeth it to passe saith he that the decrees of this Pope fight with the decrees of that Pope That I say nothing of Formosus doe not the decrees of Iohn the 22. and Nicholas fight one against another what should I speake of Innocentius and Coelestinus Pelagius and Gregories decrees one contrarie to another By these examples appeareth the Doctors vanitie The fourth reason conuersion of countries In this fourth reason the framer of it according to his custome beginneth with an vntruth saying that all countries which euer beleeued in Christ were first conuerted to his faith by such as either were precisely sent or at least wise had their authoritie from the Pope The Apostles which receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe not from Peter conuerted many countries That the Apostles receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe the scriptures are plaine in the 20. of Iohn our Sauiour saith As the father hath sent me so send I you what can be more plaine Paul saith of himselfe that he was an Apostle neither of men nor by men but by Iesus Christ How many countries did Paul conuert Concerning this land I spake something before Read Theodoret his 4. booke and 3. chap. where he reckneth England amongst the Christian lands Chrysostome as the same writer testifieth comparavit viros aemulatores Apostolicorum laborum eosque ad Scythias misit prouided men followers of the Apostles labours and sent them to the Scythians The Indians were conuerted by Frumentinus whome Athanasius ordained Bishop as the same author testifieth in his 1. booke and 12. chap. The people of Iberia were conuerted per captivam mulierem by a woman that was a captiue Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 10. by all which cleare and pregnant proofes euery man may see the boldnes of the authors assertion But now I come to reduce his reason into a syllogisme They which take paines in conuersion of countries hold the true religion But the Papists take paines in conuersion of countries ergo I denie the proposition and say to the Papists as our blessed Sauiour spake to the Pharisies Math. 23. woe be to you Papists for ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made ye make him twofold more the child of hell Heretikes haue laboured to conuert or rather to peruert men Paul in the 2. Tim. 3.13 affirmeth that euill men shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and beeing deceiued The Arrians peruerted many kingdomes Read Sigebert in his chap. de regno Gothorum as witnes Theodoret and others writers As touching the conuersion of the west Indians if things be true that are reported Sadeel con are pos in novo illo orbe amplius decies centena millia barbarorum aut fame aut gladio perierunt in the new found world aboue tenne hundred thousand haue perished either by famine or by sword If our Sauiour Christ had saide Goe kill all nations when he saide Goe teach all nations he had fitted the Papists humour What Gregorie spent in founding Seminaries to restore Catholike religion I know not but this I am sure of that Papists haue taken paines in contriuing of treasons here in England But to returne to the Indies The people there liued not onely without all manner of knowledge of God but also wilde and naked without any ciuill gouernement Iuel 42. pag. beeing in this miserable estate some worshipped the sunne some familiar deuills what maruell then if they were easily ledde into any religion especially carrying such a shew of apparrell and other ceremonies But doe not the Protestants take paines in winning of soules vnto God Calvine not to speake of others read almost two hundred lectures euery yeare and preached aboue two hundred sermons Who conuerted England Scotland Ireland and other countries from Antichrist to Christ from the Masse to the Messias from Images to the seruice of the liuing God did not poore Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius and other Protestants the ministers of England labour in their owne charges preaching in season and out of season God is as well glorified in the conuersion of a soule here as in other countries But doe the Papists now labour in conuerting of soules in times past it was not so hodie proh dolor saith Aeneas Sylvius Lib. 1. de geâ—â— con Basil now alas he is a rare Prelate which doth not preferre temporall things before spirituall things Againe Nos ignavia nostra nimia vitae cupiditate Christianam religionem ex toto orbe in angulum redegimus we by our lasinesse and great desire of life haue drawne religion out of the world into a corner of the same Clemangis in his booke which he wrote of the corrupt state of the Church speaketh thus Multò aequanimiùs ferunt decem millium animarum iacturam quà m decem solidorum Pontifices suas traditiones divinis longè mandatis anteponunt they had rather loose ten thousand soules then tenne shillings the Popes preferre their traditions farre before Gods commandements Thus then I returne the argument They which esteeme money more then the soules of men are not the true Church But the Papists esteeme money more then the soules of men Ergo. Whether M. Calvin sent ministers or no into new found lands I know not neither am I priuie to the successe they had Ezekiel was sent to the Iewes that they might know that there had beene a Prophet amongst them the fault is not in the doctrine but in the men who resist the same I will not dispute whether a wicked man may be a meanes to winne soules as a good master bestoweth a good almes by the ministerie of an euill seruant so also the mercifull Lord may call one to repentance by the meanes of another though he be an vnpenitent person The Doctors rayling vpon Luther Calvin and Peter Martyr calling his wife fustilugges fitteth the spirit of a Papist If Peter Martyrs lawfull wife deserueth the name of fustilugges what name doe the popish priests concubines deserue In that our Ministers trauell not without their wiues 1. Cor. â— I answer with Paul Haue we not power to lead about a sister a wife Beza his epistles and pistols are but words to fill vp pages and to wast paper But haue not the Protestants for-gone any worldly wealth to spread abroad religion why are they then exiles and haue witnessed their religion with their blood In a word Poperie gaineth more by wealth and armes then by conscience and if it gaineth any soundly it is by some reliques of truth which remaineth with them The fifth reason largenes of dominion through multitude of beleeuers That the Church which the Messias was to plant must be dispersed throughout all nations and kingdomes as the holy Prophets most plainly foreshewed we acknowledge neither needed the Doctor to haue produced so many testimonies I may well say of the Doctor as did
Gregorius Dyonisius saith Picus Mirandula discordant circa ordines angelorum Gregorie and Dyonisius disagree about the order of angels If Gregorie dissenteth from him why may not Luther doe so Who so desireth to read more of this Dyonisius may be referred to Erasmus and Valla. That the Protestants raile at the fathers it must be numbred amongst the Doctours vntruths but by Protestants this man meaneth the Puritans forsooth although this odious name of Puritanes agreeth better to Papists August haeres 38. who doe so stand vpon their puritie because they can keepe all Gods commandements Yet know not I any so called that raile at all the fathers But here it is to be noted euen by his owne confession that the Protestant defend the fathers against the Puritanes therefore they raile not at them Thus M. Doctour you hardly know what you write you are so egerly carried against the Protestants somewhat ye would say but yet know not well how to vtter your minde We acknowledge the fathers to haue had excellent wits to haue studied and praied continually yet doe we not deifie them neither doe we account their writings canonicall scripture as Augustine speaketh of Cyprian lib. 2. cont Cres cap. 32. Where you call the Protestants foolish vnstudied vnlearned prophane and arrogant fellowes you bewray your vaine spirit Vascula inania maximè tinniunt the emptiest vessells make the greatest sound Of your learning we shall speake more hereafter in the meane time I would haue you to know that constat plures Papaâ— adeò illiteratos fuisse vt Grammaticam penitus ignorarent Alphon. l. 1. c. 4. it is certenly knowne that sundrie Popes haue bin so vnlearned that they neuer vnderstood their Grammar You say further that Protestants are giuen to lust ambition gluttonie and couetousnes If for Protestants you had named Papists it had bin a true saying For as your owne man Coster confesseth Plarique Catholici feris ac bellumis moribus blasphemiae causam prabent infidelibus many Catholikes or Papists beeing of sauage and beastly manners and behauiour doe cause Infidels to blaspheme But more also of this in another place If the Centuriators and Calvine haue noted some errours in some of the fathers it is no more then Papists haue done The Rhemists renounceth Augustines exposition vpon the 16. of Matthew Bellarmine in his first booke de sancto beat and 6. chap. saith that Iustinus Epiphanius Ireneus and Oecumenius cannot be defended Againe Ambrose Hilarie and Nissen are reiected of him cap. 4. lib. 2. de rel To proceede he holdeth that Adam was not deceiued Lib. 3. de Amiss grat cap. 7. yet communis patrum sententia id videtur habere vt Adam fuerit seductus the fathers common opinion seemeth to be that Adam was seduced Hierome agreeth not with the fathers concerning the buriall of Adam Bell. lib. 3. de amiss grat cap. 12. Theodoret expoundeth some places of scripture as the Pelagians-doe Bellar. lib. 4. de amiss grat cap. 9. The fathers before Pelaguis did not accurately handle the doctrine of predestination Bellar. lib. 2. de grat lib. arb c. 11. Lastly not to be too tedious cap. 14. eiusdem lib. he saith that patres cum ad populum verba facerent ea dicebant quae vtiliora videbantur ad excitandos homines ad bona opera The fathers when they did speake to the people vttered those things which were most profitable to stirre vp the people to good workes For thy further satisfaction Christian Reader I desire thee but to read Bellarmines exposition of the Lords praier and tell me how the fathers doe agree euen in expounding that one praier Their diuersitie also in expounding this article He sitteth on the right hand of God is worthie to be considered Bellar. lib. 3. de Incar cap. 15. M. Doctour Humfrie his spech of that famous and reuerend Bishop Iewell beeing iniurious to himselfe is vttered in respect of his great paines and not to detract from the truth of his challenge if you can confute his booke set vpon it if you cannot neuer hereafter bragge of the fathers For indeede it is no small meanes to confirme the Protestants in their cause that his bookes haue not beene answered in so long a time you crie the fathers the fathers are on your sides and yet haue not satisfied M. Iewel his challenge in many yeares I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which condemne the fathers of errors hold a false religion But the Protestants condemne the fathers of errors Ergo. To this argument let Augustine answer Si divinarum scripturarum earum scilicet quae in Ecclesiae canonicae nominantur perspicua aliquid firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est â—pist 112. alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat if any thing be confirmed by euident authoritie of those Scriptures which are called Canonicall in the Church we must beleeue it without any doubting but other witnesses or testimonies by which some thing to be beleeued is perswaded thou maist beleeue or not beleeue I might abound with his testimonies I will adioyne one other Neque quorumlibet disputationes quamvis catholicorum laudatorum hominum velut scripturas habere debemus epist 1â—1 vt nobis non liceat salva honorificentia quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in corum scriptis improbare aut respondere We ought not to account any mens disputations although catholike and laudable men as the scriptures as if it were not lawfull for vs the honour which is due vnto them reserued to disalow and reiect something in their writings Picus Mirandula in his Apologie prooueth that in dictis sanctorum extra canonem bibliae non est infallibilis veritas in the sayings of Saints without the canon of the bible there is not infallible truth The Papists themselues refuse the fathers Pucichius saith Mihi non placet Augustini ea de re definitio Iâ—â—l 548. I like not S. Augustines determination of that point namely originall sinne Epiphanius is reiected for breaking images by D. Harding Cyprian is condemned by Duraeus because he teacheth that onely Christ is to be heard But that we may see all the fathers to be on your side M. Doctour produce I pray if you can their testimonies to prooue that the Pope cannot erre that he may depose Princes that he must summon Councells and that he is aboue the same or that the virgin Marie was not conceiued in original sinne I haue desired to see these points prooued by all the fathers if you can doe it you shall doe more then your owne men haue done By these new opinions we may gather that Poperie did beginne by degrees and hath encreased to this height These doctrines although they concerne the head of your church are so weakely prooued by the fathers that a man would imagine you doe not hold these
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
then vpon that Popes authoritie Pope Sixtus saith â—ead M. Iames. before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio the occasion of heresie Now Pope Clements edition is approoued farre differing from Sixtus edition What certaintie then haue Papists who will take the scriptures now vpon this now vpon that Popes warrant But I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which haue no certaine triall of truth are not the Church But the Protestants haue no certaine triall Ergo. I denie the assumption for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures Lib. 2. denupt cap. â—â— and may not we so doe S. Augustine writeth thus Ista controuersia iudicem riquirit this controuersie requireth a iudge who shall be iudge he answereth Christ Iudicet Christus let Christ be iudge He doth name neither Pope nor Romish church For as he saith in another place Scriptura est eminentissima authoritatis 〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3. the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse authoritie Lib. 5. Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebaptized is worthie to be heard Quarendi sunt saith he aliqui huius controuersiae indices si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt quia stuaijs veritas impeditur de foris quarendus est index si l'agaâ—â—â— non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudans inimiens est Christiani baptismatis ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium de coelo quaerendus sed vt quid puâ—samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in Euangelio testamentum inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for if Christians they cannot be had on both sides because by part-taking the truth is hindred we must seek abroad for a iudge if he be a Pagan he knoweth not Christian secrets if a Iewe he is an enemie to Christian baptisme in earth there can be found no iudgement a iudge from heauen must be required But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospel a testament because in this place earthly things may be fitly coÌ„pared to heauenly things I maruell M. Doctor that your vanting vpon all the Fathers light not vpon this Father who is as you call them a plaine Calvinist But I returne your argument They which haue no certaine triall of the truth are not the Church But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth Ergo. The assumption is manifest because they relie vpon Popes that may erre Marellinus sacrificed to idols Liberius was an Arrian And more then this some Iudas might creepe into the office as your Rhemists confesse Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil And M. Doctor in a word what certaintie haue you or can you haue if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes The 22. schisme continued 40. yeares as it is recorded in Fascic Temp. and vntill Martin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope You blaspheme the Scriptures Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want The Censure of Colen saith that it is veluti nasus caereus a nose of waxe O Antichristian Prelates the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible What triall of truth you haue I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience M. Doctor In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes admitting no iudge and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head Out vpon you Antichristian heretikes that euer you should thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme wheÌ„ce did Machiauell spring Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very fouÌ„taine of Atheists I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat Apostolicae resonant voces prodigia probant ratio confirmat mundus testatur elemeÌ„ta loquuÌ„tur Daemones confitentur sed longe maior insania si de Euangelij veritate non dubitas viuere tamen quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie the Apostolicall words doe sound miracles do prooue reason doth confirme the world doeth witnesse the elements doe vtter the deuils confesse but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false The twelfth reason the vse and custome of the Church De faece hauris you drawe of your dregges M. Doctor when you will beate vs downe with the bare club of custome Custome in ciuill affaires may preuaile much but in diuinity it is not worth a rush except it be ioyned with trueth Prudentius answereth Symmachus making this defence Suus cuique mos suus cuique ritus est Euery one hath his manner and rite Quid mihi tu ritus solitos Romane senator obiectas cum scita patrum populique frequenter in tabulis placiti sententia flexa nouarit Nunc etiam quoties solitis decedere prodest praeteritosque habitus cultu damnare recenti Why doest thou obiect vnto me Custome when a diuers opinion hath changed the decrees of Father and people now also how often doeth it auaile to depart from custome and by a newe manner to condemne the olde habits Morosa moris retentio res est aequè turbulenta ac nouitas A wayward retaining of a Custome is as turbulent a thing as noueltie Balsamon vpon Photius saith that aequitate exigente mutamus consuctudinem Tom. 6. when equitie requireth it we change custome And againe Vidi non scriptam consuetudinem fuisse infirmatam I haue seene an vnwritten custome to haue beene infringed But saith the Doctor the vse and custome of the church hath beene alwaies an infallible rule to direct and order things by First the Doctor beggeth that which is a question taking the Romish Church to be the true Church We denie it prooue it before you plead custome Secondly the Church in times past did giue the Eucharist vnto Infants was this an infallible rule M. Doctor to giue the Sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ vnto children if you denie that the Church did so you may be confounded with infinite testimonies of authors Augustine in his first booke de peccato mort cap. 20. is plaine vpon which place Erasmus hath made this marginall note Lib. 1. cap. 2. cont Iulian. Nunc
and the merit of his passion beeing content with one of them himselfe giueth the other to me I wish all Papists and Monkes for their saluation sake were of Bernards minde and I thinke this is to recant Monachisme for Monkes looke for saluation by their merits and workes Lib. 2. de grat c. 15. I will set downe that excellent place of Luke with Bellarmines glosse vpon it Feare not little flocke it is your fathers pleasure to giue you a kingdome Verbum complacuit nomen pater vocubula illa pusillus grex indicant gratiam non Justitiam The word it pleaseth the nowne father and these words little floke shewe grace not iustice Thus the kingdome of heauen is an inheritance giuen vs of our Father not deserued by vs. The last lie is some Protestants affirme the Fathers to haue thought otherwise then they wrote this is true of Papists For the Rhemists beeing pressed with Chrysostomes authoritie for the reading of Scriptures by Laymen say that he spake as e pulpit mā and not as a teacher belike pulpit men speake not that which they thinke Let the Reader then iudge whether you say the Fathers spake as they thought or no. For further triall of this I referre the Reader to that which I haue alleadged out of Bellarmine concerning the Fathers in the Reason of Fathers Hierom in his apologie to Paumichius saith that some things are spoken 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for exercise sake and other things for opinions sake ergo the fathers spake not all things dogmatically but some things rhetorically Nazianzen also biddeth his chaire farewell The rest of the chapter concerneth Luther whose speeches haue beene somewhat vehement but not knowing the reason which he might haue to vse such I can neither absolue him nor condemne him for them I will now set downe popish lies I begin with the Doctors in the first chapter he saith that in England it is manifest that all were Papists without exception from the first christening thereof vntil this age of King Henrie the eight This as I haue proued is a famous lie witnesse Wickliffe who liued in England and yet was he no papist The second lie is that hereticks haue euer taken their names of some one who began that heresie this is a lie for some heretickes as the Catharists are called of their sect and not of the author The third lie is in the third chapter the Catholikes haue euer kept vnitie and concord in such a peaceable manner as neuer any one in England or Ireland dissented or disagreed in any point of doctrine from him which liued in the vtmost parts of the East This is such a lie as needeth no manifestation of it Yet I will name one point more then I haue before Hart. Some papists in England held that the Pope may depose Princes others denie it The fourth lie is in the same chapter where he saith that all decrees of lawfull Councels and Popes doe agree in all points of doctrine one with another This I haue prooued a lie Fiftly in the 5. chapter he saith that all countreies which euer beleeued in Christ were first cōuerted to his faith by such as were either precisely sent or at the least wise had their authoritie from the Pope who liued in the time in which they were conuerted This I haue prooued a lie Sixtly in the same chapter he saith that Iesuites are executed in England onely in regard of their sacred function which to be a lie their owne bookes can testifie besides the confession of Papists Seauenthly in the fift reason he belieth M. Caluin calling him a Sere backt priest for Sodomie For I will omit the lie of persecution onely in England in the same chapter Eightly in the tenth chapter he saith that Catholike Romane religion is taught by all the auntient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixe hundred yeares Ninthly in the 13. chap. he saith that we meddle litle with restitution of goods but leaue all at large to our followers without restraint of any such crime 10. In the same chapter he saith the Protestant teacheth the landlord to doe what he listeth with his own 11 In the same place he saith that we teach not reward of good and bad life in the world to come which all men can testifie to be a lie although we disclaime the merit of good works yet we teach the merit of sinne 12 In the 14. Reason he saith that we denie the perpetuall virginitie of Marie which is an vntruth In the 15. Reason he hath many lies first that we haue nothing but a number of pelting obiections taken out of Caluins Institutions or out of the Magdebursens or some hereticall pamphlet Secondly he saith that we trouble our selues with nothing but with the controuersies of this time Thirdly that Protestants doe scarce vnderstand the tearmes of learned sciences which others doe fully possesse Fourthly he saith that the Clergie in Queene Maries time was more learned then now it is Fiftly he saith that the most learned Doctor of them all is vtterly ignorant of schoole diuinitie Sixtly he saith that the Protestant neuer medleth with cases of conscience but fraighteth his ship onely with faith and neuer beateth his braine about sinnes In the sixteenth Reason he saith that all the ministers nowe are naught yea he asketh in the same chap. what woman is nowe married without touch of her honestie I will gather no moe lies out of this Doctor I will set downe some out of other Papists The Rhemists vpon the sixt of Luke write that Protestants are wont to say All is very easie which is a lie Againe say they the Protestants thinke that to burne is to be tempted onely which is a lie 1. Cor. 7. Thirdly vpon the 9. chap. of the first epist of Paul to the Cor. they say that protestants will not haue men worke well in respect of reward at Gods hands which is a lie I desire thee Christian reader to read the Rhemists annotatiōs where thou shalt finde many slaunders but I delight not in these things Bellarmine affirmeth that Caluin maketh God the author of fin againe he saith that Caluin holdeth that the saints departed are not blessed he saith also that he died calling vpon the deuill which are monstrous lies Genebrard accuseth Caluin of errour in saying that the sonne of God is God of himselfe Bellarmine defendeth Caluine against Genebrard nowe let euery man iudge of this syllogisme They which are lyars are of a false religion But the Papists are lyars ergo Christian reader I would not haue vsed this tearme of lying so often but that I haue beene vrged by the Doctor For railing I referre thee to M. Hardings workes as also to Doctor Stapletons writings against M. Doctor Whitakers in which thou maist see the spirit of papists The 20. reason Keeping in memorie Gods benefits That the memorie of Gods benefits is carefully to
temple and a church as I haue prooued Thirdly he saith that by meanes of Images pictures crosses the most vnlearned amongst the people knowe more of the misteries of christian religion then some of our ministers know If this be so it is a horrible shame for ministers for this I know that some vnlerned people haue worshipped Images as gods but indeed what is this but to contemne gods wisome and ordinance who hath not ordained Images to teach the people but his word to instruct them Take heed M. Doctor of this horrible sinne to make your selues wiser then God Fourthly the Doctor saith that we haue noe more warrant for solemnizing of the sonday then we haue for S. Lawrence his day for other reason or warrant we haue none but the authoritie of the Roman church fye fye M. Doctor that you should thus bewray your ignorance Bellarmine in his third booke de cul Sanct. and 11. chap. prooueth the obseruation of the Lordes day by the scriptures if you can prooue the obseruation of S. Lawrance his day by the same warrant you may doe well to shewe vs some of your arguments Other things of lesse moment I let passe because I labour for breuitie The 21. reason The Protestants beginning and proceeding against their consciences This chapter hath many wordes to little purpose first Luther is charged to say that he could see into another mans heart or cōscience who will beleeue Luther should speake thus except he meant he could doe it by plaine words and manifest deeds this M. Doctor you confesse your selfe may be done I hope if Luther saie that he could see into another mans conscience he had no other meaning but by plaine words and manifest deeds Luther was not so sottish as you would beare men in hand to make himselfe a God But M. Doctor if your reason be good to prooue that some Protestants speake and write against their consciences because they suspect others to doe so for commonly a man thinketh others to be as himselfe is then you speake and write against your conscience because you are suspitious yea vpon ridiculous reasons and vntruths you charge men to write against their consciences This is your own reason and argument and therefore cannot be denied For proofe that you charge men to write against their cōsciences onely vpon ridiculous reasons let the reader iudge I will set down your arguments Luther confessed that he began against his conscience ergo he proceeded so M. Doctor to admit your antecedent who wil graunt your consequent for here you say that he proceeded so farre as he thought that by desperate necessitie he must go on and so compare him to Iulius Caesar The truth is he ended his life most heauenly as M. Doctor Whitakers sheweth out of Melancthon and Sleidon We will not credit your slaunderous writings of him but the writings of the forenamed men From Luther the Doctor commeth to Zwinglius who is said to haue denied secretly the reall presence for many yeres before he brake off frō the Roman Church but yet inwardly he dissembled his mind What then if Zwinglius did thus did he therefore proceed against his conscience because he remained sometime in the Romane church after he had seene the trueth of the Sacrament What honest man would shape such conclusions If this be to proceede against conscience Papists in England proceede against their consciences for they continue in our Church though they secretly dissemble their opinions many examples hereof might be giuen Touching Nemo the Anabaptiste what haue we to doe with him The Protestants haue most soundly confuted the sect of Anabaptists when Papists haue taken their ease And Christian Reader I desire thee to behould howe the Doctor dealeth whether against his owne conscience or no I leaue to God in charging vs with Anabaptists speeches whereas we renounce such lewd sectaries as he himselfe can testifie Thomas Bell is as I thinke aliue and therefore can answer for himselfe Wherefore I leaue him who hath learnedly written against Poperie and come to Melancthon who is charged to proceede against his conscience because he was sad and gaue himselfe to weeping O M. Doctor howe doe you forget your selfe is euery one a sinner against his conscience that weepeth and sorroweth and that cannot by and by be comforted Dauid was many times heauie and his soule had not alwaies comfort yet was Dauid a man after Gods owne heart Concerning Carolastadius I will not say any thing neither doe I regard what any Lutherane hath written of Zuinglius and Oecolampadius As for Bucer it is a lewde slaunder that he had no religion at all God wil be reuenged of you M. Doctor for blaspheming his seruants after this manner Bishop Iuell is charged to shewe himselfe without God and conscience he doth rent in peeces the text of Doctors and inuerteth the sense of the same If this reuerend Bishoppe had done thus his enemies would haue found it no doubt M. Doctor you would haue noted some places but seeing you haue noted no such corruptions we account it a detestable lie No no your owne men change the words of Fathers I will referre you to places Bellarm. lib. 1. de grat lib. arbit cap. 11. doeth shamefully corrupt Augustine as I haue shewed in another worke and in his 4. booke de amiss gra and 9. chap. he rendeth in peeces Hieroms saying Againe in his 3. booke de cult Sanct. cap. 9. he doeth horribly cite Eusebius So doeth he also in his 1. booke de Sanct. beat cap. 13. Thus he dealeth not onely with Fathers but with Caluin in his preface de libero arbit and his first booke de Sanct. beat cap. 1. 2. de iustif cap. 8. Read these places your selfe M. Doctor and compare them with the authors and see who corrupt fathers Many other testimonies I could produce but I desire not to be tedious If you could alleadge so many corruptions out of reuerend Iuell I thinke we should haue seene them Thus I pray you consider your owne argument They which corrupt Fathers sinne against their conscience But the Papists corrupt Fathers ergo Pag. 10. The assumption is prooued by the testimonies alleadged and to giue you one or two more Duraeus citing Augustine leaueth out these words Opera sequuntur iustificatum non praecedunt iustificandum Workes followe him that is iustified they goe not before iustification The Rhemists vpon the 19. of Mathew peruert Augustine his words cleane contrarie to his meaning affirming no man to be excluded from the gift of continencie whereas Augustine his meaning is that both the will to be chaste and the power to fulfill that will is the gift of God Nowe I might followe your example of bitternes seeing I haue giuen you so many corruptiōs but I leaue this course and desire you to remember your own argument I come to Papists who seeme to haue proceeded against their owne consciences One Papist in England as
presence because the wordes were so plaine and why hath the text bin so tossed that out of it alone there hath bin wronge foure score different opinions I doubt you can hardly shewe so many opinions M. Doctor but graunt it yet a plaine text may not bee vnderstood of euery one and if the text be so plaine as you would haue it howe commeth it to passe that there are so many different opinions also among your selues for you know not howe to expound the word this as I haue prooued in an other worke Scotus confesseth that before the Lateran councell transubstantiation was no matter of faith ergo the wordes this is my body prooue it not Lactantius crieth out after this manner O quam difficilis est ignorantibus veritas quam facilis scientibus O how hard is truth to the ignorante but how easie to the skilfull truth then may be easie in it selfe though difficult to some men Vpon this vaine question you haue made a foolish inference that we haue noe witnesses at all of our newe inuented doctrine but euery one his priuat fancy or conceit whereas the catholike Roman religion hath all things in the world witnesses of it This is a monstrous fable are you able to prooue that all which are in heauen were the children of your church and all that are in hell were enemies vnto it to examine particulars Ignatius you say was of your religion because in Ecclesiasticall affaires he would not haue the king equall to the Bishop and because he wrotte Ecclesiasticall traditions To the first I answer that the true Ignatius would not correct Salomons speech Prou. 24. My sonne saith Salomon honour God and the king but I say honour God and the Bishop as high Priest the true Ignatius was a man of greater religion then that he would haue corrected the scripture but any thing is good inough to patch vp poperie To the second place I answer that it beeing duely considered ouerthroweth the Papists opinion For Ignatius thought it necessarie that the Traditions of the Apostles that is their doctrine should be written for feare of corruption what then is become of vnwritten traditions For that this is the true meaning of Eusebius Grynaeus sheweth Eus l. 5. c. 23. Next vnto Ignatius is Irenaeus placed who is so farre from agnizing the Papall authoritie that he did Acriter Victorem reprehendere sharpely reprooue Victor the Romane Bishop because he excommunicated the Churches of Asia for keeping the feast of Easter in a diuers manner from Rome Would Irenaeus haue done this if the Popes authoritie had beene vniuersall As foâ— Victor if this be your argument he excommunicated the Churches of Asia ergo he was a papist you make a ridiculous reason The next argument of Policarpus his going to Rome is of the same moment for who knoweth not that many mens aduise is vsed who yet haue no authoritie ouer others That Saint Cyprian Syxtus Laurence with infinite others doe witnesse the Romane religion I denie Saint Cyprian is so farre from witnessing all points of poperie that as I haue prooued he is reiected of Papists From men the Doctor commeth to women affirming thousands to haue defended their virginitie against deuils and men What then were they Papists therefore To come to speciallities Helen you say founde out the Crosse Although that historie may be doubted of yet Helen was no Papist for shee did not worshippe the crosse because that was an heathenish errour if shee had beene a Papist shee would haue adored the crosse But the Mother of Augustine Saint Monica was a papist who after death requested that shee might haue Masse said for her here if you meane popish Masse M. Doctor you abuse your selfe most shamefully for shee desired onely a memorie of her at the Communion So had the Prophets and Apostles which were not in your fained Purgatorie By these fewe examples you haue prooued Protestancie then poperie as for the rest which you name Saint Paul the Eremit and others when you prooue them Papists we will beleeue it To your question demanding whether there were any Saints in heaueÌ„ before this our age which were not papists I answer that there were therfore you speake impiously to say that heauen was emptie vntil Luther shooke off his hood or if there were any they were Papists who reuealed these things vnto you M. Doctor Take heede of the pride of Lucifer who would ascend into heauen to know secrets they belong not vnto you The Apostles and Martyrs with thousands I doubt not were in heauen which I am sure were no Papists witnesâ—e their writings From heauen the Doctor commeth to hell I feare me without repentance a fit place for him This iolly fellowe knoweth not onely matters in heauen but also what is done in hell as it seemeth The heathen persecutors are in hell for persecuting the Catholike Church I doubt not but this Catholike Church is not the same with the Romish Church at this day there is ample difference betwixt these And that Constantine gaue great peace to the Church Theod. lib. 1. c. 7. it is true also but he was no Papist for he saith that the holy Scriptures teach vs plainely all things which concerne diuine matters Lastly that all Bishops vnder the cope of heauen were members of this Romish Church is a notorious vntrueth The Doctor to fill vp his reason numbreth many but prooueth not that which he saith The rest of the chapter is but a vaine flourish of words in which I take no delight To drawe his reason into a syllogisme is needlesse because in deede it hath neither head nor foote Amongest many vanities in the ende of the chapter the Doctor saith that he is a Papist because the Romish religion is the most beneficiall of all the rest Christian Reader I feare me that this indeed is the true cause why many are papists namely their commodities But this is sufficient to driue men from poperie that in regard of preferment by this Doctors confession he is a Papist M. Doctor I haue taken away your euidence for poperie for baptisme bindeth no man to falshood Wherefore I beseech you by your saluation choose rather with Moses to suffer affliction then to be the Popes white sonne which as it seemeth by your owne confession you doe because the Romish Religion is most gainefull Out vpon gaine against conscience the Lord open your eies to see the trueth FINIS An admonition to the Reader I desire thee Christian Reader if there be any faults of the Printer to impute them to him not to the author of this booke for he could not be present at the Presse
we denie praier for the dead I answer if Arrius tooke away thankesgiuing for the dead we hold not as he did but if he denied praier for those that were in fained Purgatorie we hold no such place Philastrius chargeth him with condemning of marriage and Augustine with Arrianisme these opinions we detest The fift heresie is that we make no difference of sinnes with Iouinian neither doe we make virginitie any better then marriage I answer that we teach a difference of sinnes some to be greater some to be smaller but we disclaime the opinion of veniall sinnes And if this be heresie then as I haue prooued both fathers and some papists are heretickes Touching virginitie we teach with Paul 1. Cor. 7. that pure virginitie is to be preferred before marriage although we hold that marriage is better then single life where virginitie or chastitie are not kept but counterfeited The sixt heresie is that we despise all holy reliques of Saints with Vigilantius I answer first that Augustine Philastrius and other doe not reckon him amongst heretikes It is not eftsoone heresy if one man calleth it so Hierom calleth Ruffinus an heretike yet M. Harding saith it is straunge so to doe Secondly I answer that if Vigilantius would haue Saints reliques cast vpon the dunghill we hould not with him as for tending of tapers and setting vp of waxe candles Hierom imputeth it to the simplicitie of some laye men and deuoute women that had zeale but not according to knowledge Thus you approoue that which Hierom excuseth Lastly S. Hierom is so hotte against Vigilantius that Erasmus is fayne to saie Conuicijs debacchatur Hieronimus Hierom raileth without measure The seuenth heresy is that we denie with Eutyches the oblation of the sacrifice and the hallowing Chrisme But therefore are we not Eutichians who confounded Christes natures and turned his humanitie into his Deitie as for Pelagianisme and Donatisme we haue nothing to doe with them for Pelagius denyed originall sinne which we teach to be in infants and the Donatists held the Catholike church to be onely in Aphrica and to haue perished out of the whole world we hould noe such thing Nowe I haue finished the doctrine of the ould heretckes in which christian reader thou mayst behold the slaunderous tonge of the Doctor who without conscience when he could not charge vs truly with heresy hath inuented lies for may part these slaunders driue me more and more from Popery and I beseech thee by thy saluation that they way preuaile so with thee Hereafter I must speake of the deedes and manners of heretickes first we are like to Paulus Samosetanus who desired great applause of his hearers for proofe that he did so Eusebius is cited but there is no such thing in Eusebius If this be the manner of hereticks then are Papists hereticks who as it is manifest by the Doctor desire applause of men for learning in so much that they breake out into their owne praises after a most insolent manner as for the protestants they doe noe such thinge and therefore they resemble not this hereticke if hee did so Secondly we are like to the Donatists who ouerthrew aultars the trueth is Christian Reader the altars which the Donatists destroied were not of stone as Popish altars are but were tables of wood such as we haue S. Augustine maketh this plaine in his 50. epistle Thus M. Doctor you see howe your owne quotations make against your selfe By this testimonie we may learne what to thinke of the popish sacrifice as for the Donatists refusing to come to Councels we doe not so but vnfainedly desire a free generall Councell and haue giuen sufficient reasons why we came not to the Councel of Trent The crueltie of the Donatists towards the Catholikes fitly agreeth to papists who after a most sauadge manner haue murdered protestants as the Lord wil one day make manifest to the world As for Claudius de sanctis his testimonie we regard it not The rest of the chapter concerneth the destroying of Idolatrie and Luthers arrogancie with other vaine matters as disputing of women and finding fault with priests liues but I haue answered sufficiently concerning Idolatrie and therefore it is a wicked slaunder that we are like vnto Iulian the Apostatâ— as for the disputing of women let Theodoret answer who plainly testifieth that women did dispute of diuinitie That which the doctor counteth a fault Theodoret approoueth of saying thou maist see our opinions to be held of women and handmaides I wish that women were so cunning in religion that they could mildly and christianly dispute of the same But there remaineth a perilous matter ould heritikes were inquisitiue and desirous to heare of the sinnes and faults of priests and of other Ecclesiasticall persons I will not stand to examine the trueth of this whether heretickes were so inquisitiue or no onely knowe Christian Reader that this sauoreth of Manichisme for the Manichees said Lib. 2. de Maâ— as Augustine sheweth non oportet omnino quaeri c. we must not inquire at all what men they are that professe the Manichees sect but what the profession is The papists would faine haue their wicked liues hidden from men but they cannot for as ignis tunica celari non potest fire cannot be kept in the garment so sinne cannot be concealed in vaine therefore M. Doctor you go about to haue your faults concealed the more you desire this the more men will enquire into your actions because you giue iust cause so to doe Thus hauing answered your accusation of heresie I wil set downe no faine dbut true heresies which you hould Bellar. lib. 2. de purg cap. 6. houldeth that it was true Samuell which appeared vnto Saul this Philastrius maketh an heresie as it is plaine 26. haer Where he prooueth that the soules of the righteous are in the hands of God Secondly the prodiants did vse the booke of Syrach Philastrius haer post Christ 9. soe did the papists as it is manifest in so much that they make the booke canonicall scripture Thirdly the heritickes Angelici did worship Angells August 38. haer so doe the papists as it is euident Fourthly the heritickes called Apostolici taught by practise a communitie of goods so doe the Monkes for they possesse not any thing Fiftly the Euthits would not labour with their hands no more will the idle Monkes Sixtly the Pelagians taught that a man may fulfill the law of God and so doe the Papists yea they vse the Pelagians arguments and answers as I haue prooued in other places Seauenthly the Pepulians permitted priesthood to women August 27. haeres so doe the papists permit women to baptize Eightly Carpocrates did worship the Images of Iesus and of Paul Iren. lib. 1. cap. 24. so doe the Papists Ninthly the heretickes called Apocryphi would not haue the Canonicall Scriptures onely to be read but certaine Apocryphall workes Philast haeres 40. So the Papists will haue Apocryphal bookes to
confirme their opinions and to be reade for proofe of them as I haue shewed Yea they fly to traditions which the heretickes before named might also haue iustified if the Canonicall scriptures had not beene sufficient Tenthly the Manichees vsed but one part of the Communion for they would not haue wine so doe the Papists as it is notorious to all men I might mention many other heresies held by Papists but I haue handled them in another worke therefore I will not recite them here Touching the manners of heretickes if crueltie be a badge of heretickes then are Papists rightly mustered amongest heretickes for they haue most barbarously murdered many men as I will shewe God willing in the next reason The 24. reason Peace and tranquilitie It is a heathen Principle that Legem sibi ipsis indicunt innocentiae continentiae virtutumque omnium qui ab altero rationem vitae reposcunt They which require a reason of another mans life make to themselues a law of innocencie continencie of all vertues To accuse men of tumults when they are themselues tumultuous is intollerable Quis tulerit Gracchos de seditione querentes who can beare it that Gracchus should complaine of sedition that Verres should speake against theft and Milo against murther who could thinke that Papists should speake against warres cruelties and outragious tragedies when they haue spilt exceeding much innocent blood The Spanish inquisitions and French Massacres haue murdered men women and children by thousands Phocas murdered Mauritius the Emperour by whose meanes Boniface the Pope obtained that roome and should be called the head of all Churches as Gotfridus testifieth Here Christian Reader thou maiest see that the Pope cam vp by murder Pope Vrban the fixt bound fiue Cardinalls in a sacke and drowned them in the sea He tooke the kingdome of Sicile from the Queene and gaue it to others Symachus and Laurentius did striue for the Popedome which contention lasted yeares cum effusione sanguinis multorum tam clericorum quà m laicorum With the shedding of many mens blood both of the cleargie laietie Alexander 2. Codulus contended for the Popedome which contention vsque ad homicidia prorupit brake forth into murther as witnesseth Sigebert The histories are full of such examples yet saith the Doctor the Catholike Romane religion began with meekenesse mildenesse and with all quiet and peaceable meanes Whereas the Protestants both haue begun and hold on their course with seditious tumults That you may knowe your peaceable proceedings heare what Wicellensis writeth concerning Hildebrande Miscuit se plurimorum mortibus Christianorum succendent vbique incendia bellorum per totum pene Romanum imperium He thrust himselfe into the deaths of many Christians kindling warres almost throughout the whole Romane Empire Iohn Hus was burned although he had safe conduct promised him Certain men called cruciatores whē they should haue gone against the Turke hauing the Popes indulgences defloured women and murthered men to the number of three score and ten thousand Yea saith Landgius Scribi non potest quanta crudelitate vsi sunt It can not be vttered what crueltie they vsed Concerning the troubles in Germanie my purpose is not to speake of them neither will I meddle with the warres in Fraunce or Scotland Diuers countres haue diuers gouernments the tumults of any subiects against their soueraignes as we doe not allow so we may not condemne the poore afflicted Christians our neighbours before we heare what they can say for themselues I am a scholler not a souldier a diuine not a lawier The circumstances of forraine warres fewe knowe besides themselues as also we know not the lawes of those lands we will not therefore enter those acts which haue so many parts precedents causes concurrents From forraine common warres you come to England and are very busie with king Henrie the 8. king Edward the 6. princes of famous memorie It were best for you M. Doctor to leaue kingdoms and studie diuinitie you are so drownd in pollicie that you forget diuinity yet you can without teares recount summarily the troubles of this land So you may doe in regard of Queene Maries times when not onely Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury Payne◠Bishop of Winchester Barloe of Bath Tailor of Lincolne with diuers other both Archdeacons and Deacons were put from their liuings and wonderfull store of blood shed these are the times that you should lament Yet it is to be lamented that any should be so obstinate on popery as to die in the same As for Queene Elizabeths gratious gouernment you are not ashamed also to controll it Yet Papists themselues teach that it was both milde and mercifull and had not her Maiestie cause to deale with Papists as shee did when the Pope excommunicated her and stirred vp the Northen rebels her owne subiects to rebell against her Doctor Saunders did thrust himselfe into the Irish warres against her Maiestie If the Pope had so dealt with the king of Spaine as he hath dealt with our late most renowmed Queene would the king of Spaine haue taken it When I weighed and considered these things with my selfe I could not but dislike the Romish religion accompanied with tumults insurrections ruines desolations and with all manner of tragicall miseries and cleaue vnto this religion in England which euer teacheth peace as our writings shewe But it may be M. Doctor your owne men will beare some credit with you Cardinall Poole in his imagined oration to Charles the Emperour calling backe his Maiestie from the Turke to leaue all other affaires and to bend his banners against England and encouraging the subiects of this realme boldly to rebell against their Prince speaketh after this manner English men are a people that oftentimes haue deposed their kings for lighter causes This book as reuered Iuell testifieth was abroad and might be seene wherefore if peace wil preuaile with you call to minde that you haue bin the firebrands fo sedition the trueth is you would force to religion but you would not be forced The 25. reason All kinds of witnesses Euery man knoweth or may knowe M. Doctor that your tonge ouerreacheth when you say we can bring nothing to witnes our religiō but only the scriptures We haue produced the fathers of the primitiue Church to confirme the same but if we haue the scriptures on our side it is sufficient though all men were against vs that Gods word is not contrarie it is most true but that your practises are consonant to the same it is most false as likewise that we will admitte noe expositors of holy scriptures but the scriptures themselues that the scriptures expound themselues in matters necessary to saluation I thinke you will not denie your selfe Master Doctor neither will you alwaies take the fathers expositions Caietan confesseth that the sense of the scriptures is not tied to the Fathers exposition as I can shew but you demaund why Luther confesseth that he could not denie the reall