the Wyse are lyke Goades and lyke Nayles c. which are given by one Pastour Were they not I pray you the ordinarie Church-men whom the LORD rebuked for burdening Consciences with Traditions even of Fathers And were not those Traditions where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition the Traditions of the Church Doeth not the same Father affirme That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum sicubi falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant that is Wee ought not consent no not with Catholicke Bishops if they holde a◅e opinion contrarie to the canonicke Scriptures For as Cyprian sayth Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Custome without Trueth is but Antiquitie of Errour And the Saying of Ruffinus on the Creed is notable Non dicimus Credo in Ecclesiam sed Credo Ecclesiam ne eadem vis authoritas videatur Creatoris creaturae Domini Ministrorum that is Wee say not I belieue in the Church but I belieue the Church lest one and the same might appeare to bee the power and auth◅ritie of the Creator and the creature of the LORD and of His Servantes Augustine affirmeth Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum ipsa consilia reprehendere si qua in ◅e a veritate devient That it is lawfull to repr◅oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops yea and the Councels them-selues if in anie thing they decly◅e from the ◅rueth Because hee who heareth the King his Ambassadour or Herauld heareth the King and who despyseth them despyseth the King haue eyther Ambassadours or Heraulds an◅ libe◅tle heere-vpon to exceede the boundes of then Commissions and Warrandes Or haue not the parties who other-wayes are holdē to heare eyther of th◅m yet place le◅t them without anie diminution of the Soveraigne Majestie and Royall Authoritie both to aske for and to examine their Warrandes Wee haue but one LORD and one Law-giver and so only doeth the contempt of our voyce touch Him if our voyce bee the Eccho of His voyce and wee speake not out of our owne imaginations Other-wayes the manie sad and serious Warninges given vs to trye spirits were vayne Then turning speach to Philomathes Eriphilus heate for your Church Philomathes hath al-most haled mee quyte from our Question You objected That all Sects pretende Scripture I answered That all pretended not Scripture onlie for that your Church joyneth and aequalleth with Scripture her owne Devyses Nowe to divert heere farder to the Question of the Churches power in this poynt and whether shee may erre or not it were to slyde away from our present poynt and I haue disputed that matter at length in my Defence of our Callinges I giue the Case then that your Church and all others acclayming the Title did pretende Scripture onelie yet it is one thing to pretende Scripture and another to haue Scripture truelie for them It is one thing to rehearse the common Creede and another thing to holde the poyntes there-of Yea and one thing to holde them falselie and but in show and another to holde them truelie One may in worde and profession holde IESVS to haue come in the flesh and yet in effect denye it and so bee an Antichrist None can call IESVS LORD but by the Spirit of GOD sayeth the Scripture and yet the same Scripture witnesseth That not al who call Him LORD shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven If Heretickes did not pretende Scripture they could not greatlie deceiue no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle if they had not plowed with his Heyfer And this indeede were to yeelde Satan an easie victorie if because for more effectuall deceit hee maketh to cloathe him-selfe with our Weapons wee should therefore fayntlie forsake them and for-g◅e that which by our LORD is left vs for our onelie Armour Rule of our Wayes and Sole Ground and Pillar of our Fayth as sayeth Ireneus so to wander and perish in the Wildernesse of Mens Inventions Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes it is exceeding strange that your Teachers haue so farre perswaded their Disciples that reading of Scripture to Laike persons as they call them is not onelie vnprofitable for resolution but also dangerous for breeding Errours Thus verifying of themselues that saying of Ireneus speaking of Heretickes Cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum that is When they are argued by Scriptures they turne then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selues Al-be-it wee see the Bereans are highlie praysed for searching Scripture and examining there-by what was offered vnto them and their example is registrated by the holie Ghost for a permanent instruction in such case to all succeeding Ages And it is even monstrous to consider how farre your guydes haue brought their followers not onlie to neglect but even to contemne yea and condemne in Laike men the reading of holie Scripture So as I can not tell whether with greater horrour I haue often heard their disdainful speaches against Scripture or with dolour and compassion I haue perceived how some of them presuming much of Knowledge and other-wayes prowdlie peart to prattle in Controversies of Religion and to talke at Tables of some cunned and dismembred Testimonies of the Fathers yet in the Sacred BIBLE were as great strangers as in the Alcoran Philomathes If anie man eyther speake vnreverentlie of Scripture or condemne the reading there-of by Laike persons I am not to make good for that for my selfe I both reverence them and esteeme the reading of them in Sobernesse and Humilitie to all sorts of men not onlie lawfull but also profitable and necessarie Neyther did that which I objected to Eubulus tende to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture but seeing that not onlie all Heretickes pretende Scripture each drawing out there-of a Sense for corroboration of their owne Opinions but that there is also a manifolde and great diversitie of interpretation amongst all men where-through it is cleare howe doubtfull and obscure the meaning of Scripture is It would appeare that al-be-it wee haue not to forsake or despyse Scripture yet for Resolution which is the true Sense that wee must seeke some other Rule And what can that bee else but that leaving all other Interpretations wee holde that which the Catholicke Church avoucheth Eubulus Doe you not perceiue Philomathes howe agaynst all Logicke Lawes you reduce our Disputation to a Circle and so not onelie you take that for a graunted ground which is the verie poynt in question but also fall sensiblie in that same imputation which you would appeare so much to shunne Wee are disputing Which is the true Church and haue evinced That the onelie sure way to know Her is by Scripture So as of necessitie first Scripture must leade vs to know amongst common Acclaymers which is Shee before wee can resolue to follow Her interpretation I heartilie yeelde that Her interpretation be taken but in such Dispute Who Shee is wee
must first bee assured that it is the Bryde which speaketh and not a masked Harlot vnder that name As for your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie where-vpon by accusing Scripture you would build an excuse of seeking some other Rule it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD and is also in it selfe sophisticall It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD in that CHRIST commanding to search Scripture for a cleare witnessing of Him the holie Ghost affirming by Peter that the word of Scripture is a sure and shyning word by Paul that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse to everie good worke and exhorting all men praysing in all men the diligent reading and meditation there-of there-by to discerne spirites and to prooue what is propounded vnto them that David al-most all-where speaking so divinelie of the playnnesse and power there-of as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes Yet some of your men Philomathes are not ashamed disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule and a Nose of Waxe as if the Almightie and only wyse GOD had not eyther wysely anough or lovinglie provyded for the direction of His House and that men forsooth will or can finde out a more cleare and certayne way But what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture or howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men might appeare to make it by their diversitie of Interpretations yet this should ever haue religiouslietyed vs there-to that our LORD hath left it vs for a Lanterne to our Feete and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth studying therefore with all humilitie cleannesse of heart and earnest prayer to attayne the knowledge there-of and not proudlie and rebelliouslie to take such counsell as did Israell in the Wildernesse Wee know not what is become of this Moses make vs therefore gods to goe before vs. The advyse of Augustine is much more both sound and sober than is that of your Church-men That in reading of Scripture if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense and meaning of the place at least let vs not expound that place of Scripture in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth So shall wee bee lyke to a man who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way yet hee wandreth in the Fields leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee I affirmed Philomathes that your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie was also Sophisticall and thus I cleare it All reason of obscuritie must bee eyther in the matter it selfe or in the manner of delyverie or in the weaknesse of their perception to whome it is delyvered Of divine thinges wee acknowledge that how-so-ever for most reall and constant existence they bee of all thinges the most certayne yet that for their retyred eminencie to all creatures of all thinges the most obscure But for the manner of deliverie as GOD in holie Scripture hath revealed them we affirme that all the wisdome and eloquence of all creatures even in a conceived matter could never haue found out so playne a manner or so farre and lovinglie haue attempered it to the capacitie of man as in so high mysteries and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth was possible And yet how-so-ever they bee thus delivered wee acknowledge that no naturall man and naturall onlie is capable of them For they are spirituallie discerned But the spirituall man by the Spirit of GOD in him will discerne the things of GOD. To reason then from the naturall obscuritie or retyred eminencie of the matter to the manner of deliverie or from the weaknesse of man's perception to conclude of the manner of deliverie or from the perception of the naturall man to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication We are bolde to say with the holie Ghost That how-so-ever to most part of men the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables that hearing they may heare and not vnderstand and seeing they may see and not perceiue Yet That Who-so-ever doeth the will of the FATHER they will knowe the Doctrine whether it bee of GOD or whether men speake of them-selues That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe knowe His Voyce and knowe the voyce of a Stranger Wee avouch That the wordes of Wisdome are all playne to him that will vnderstand and straight to him that will finde Knowledge That Scorner seeketh Wisdome and findeth it not but Knowledge is easie to him that will vnderstand So as if the Trueth bee hid it is hid to them whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out and whom GOD justlie eyther for misregard or pryde of mynde hath given over to the efficacie of Errour to groape even at noone day Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection of diversitie of Interpretation against this for how-so-ever manie particular places in Scripture appeare still difficill and doubtfull to vs which but know in part and prophesie in part yet wee affirme with Augustine That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture are all things to bee found which contayne Fayth and Rules of living and that nothing almost is ripped out of the most obscure parts which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken Philomathes To grant you even all that you haue sayde either of the plainnesse or plentifulâ—…esse of holie Scripture yet what shall you gaine there-by against our Questioner or how shall you justifie the imputations of want of Care Skill or Conscience layde on him by you seeing both our Church confesseth that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church and such Notes as are heere brought by our man hee prooveth them all from Scripture Eubulus How eyther proper or pertinent your Poet's Markes are which hee bringeth and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture or other-wayes wee shall see GOD willing in the particular examination of each where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe and that carelessie skillessie or fraudfullie hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke to seduce the simple with Topicall showes You say your Church acknowledgeth that by Scripture the true Marks of the Church are knowne But Philomathes they fall never to say so but when they are reduced to such straits as eyther they must say it or bee snared For their common Doctrine is well anough knowne which can so little consist with this which you haue now granted as the one evidentlie over-throweth the other For doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage as that therefore onlie you are sure such such to be canonicke Scriptures because the Church hath so determined Thus monstrouslie you make one and the same to bee both the Mother and the Daughter and of one Philomathes But thus you taxe Augustine no lesse than vs who affirmeth that hee would not belieue Scripture if the authoritie of the Churh did
not mooue him Eubulus You deceiue Philomathes by concluding Theticallie and absolutelie vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth and so you vnskilfullie confound diverse Cases For first inducing of an Infidell to belieue Scripture the Authoritie of the Church is a great Motiue or rather as Augustine calleth it a Commotiue and Opportanum inquirendi exordium that is A commodious entrie to inquire by Now from this speciall Case and qualitie of Case to inferre That the man by this Commotiue first induced had still there-after no other or greater Warrand for his Beliefe of Scripture but the Authoritie of the Church which first induced him it were no better Logicke than to conclude of the Samaritanes That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth than the Report of their Woman from the Well The Authoritie of the Church may and will often induce an Infidell to reverence and belieue Scripture but so as having come thus farte then in the communitie of that Church to discerne lawfull from vnlawfull worship and orthodox from hereticall professours the Scriptures onlie must haue place as in a case where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie were extreamlie ridiculous it beeing the verie point in question what companie is the Church And I shewed you before how your men are alwayes deceived or at least labour to deceiue others by confounding the case of the Church considered absolutelie and in relation to Forraigners and Infidels and reasoning from it so considered to the decyding of debate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church In the first the common notes are discretiue and the common authoritie a commotiue to induce but in the other there is no manner of way but the Scriptures as out of the Fathers I haue cleared And now â—…lomathes to returne to our poynâ—… whence this your â—…hreedbare Objection from Augustine hath driven â—…ee I pray you if your men are forced to confesse That the Markes of the Church are knowne by Scripture why flee they from having all both their Doctrine and Dealing examined by that same Rule What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this to â—…ject Scripture in the particular tryall of everie Article of Fayth and yet for a few wrested and pervâ—…ed Sentences where-by to proue some bastard and begâ—…yling Notes therefore impudentlie to all eadge That they for sooth doe cleare their Church by Scripture As if in all Scripture the holie Ghost had but given some Notes of a Companie where to seeke our Fayth and noâ—… clearlie set downe the Fayth which wee haue to holde and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto Your Cardinall Bellarmine in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers nearlie pintching him namelie of Augustine is forced to flee to this which you also 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge That the Scripture indeede teacheth what are the Notes of the Church And I haue verilie reason to thanke both you and him for it If as I presume of you so hee also had eyther willinglie or ingenuouslie yeelded it And though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of for the cleare advantage I haue in it to conclude agaâ—…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation I am sure that 〈◊〉 â—…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—… Schoâ—…Man will not agaynst Naâ—…re â—…nd all Schooles affirme of GOD the most perfect Doctour Thâ—… Hee 〈◊〉 Obseuruâ—… pâ—…r obscurius that which is obscure by anie thing which is more obscure For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus that is of thinges which are by nature more notore than are those things which they are brought to notifie Thus then I conclude vpon your owne Position That which cleareth anie thing must it selfe be more cleare But the Scripture cleareth which are the Notes of the Church There-fore as the Notes where-by the Church is knowne must bee more cleare than the Church which is knowne by them So the Scripture which teacheth those Notes must bee more cleare than both The Scripture which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe truelie taught and reverentlie received is the onlie sure and evident Ensigne of the House and Flocke And who is it that knoweth not this That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours and not the Colours by the Companie Now consider Philomathes whether your mens Objections Of Scriptures obscuritie doe fall and in what vprightnesse they are propounded And whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for or rather fraudfullie to divert the Simple from the onelie Light which leadeth to it And some of your owne Wryters convinced by cleare Trueth are forced to confesse what the more impudent sort so much oppugne Andreas Fricius thus speaketh DEVS Author est Verbi Sui quod tanti facit ut Coelum Terra facilius transitura sint quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum qui authoritatem tribuit qui illud in dignitatem vindicat qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum Testimonium quidem Ecclesia Spiritu DEI affâ—…ata dare potest Verbo Doctrinae hanc scilicet quam â—…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus acâ—…pisset non aliâ—…m esse à DEO prolitam Authoritatem verâ—… Illi â—…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum qui est Author illius Illustrator Defensor Propugâ—…ator Agayne the same Author Lib. 4. de Ecclesia Cap. 7. Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam Verbum Fundamentum est Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum Gabriel Biel Lib. 3. Sentent Distinct. 26. Scripturae canonicae absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae ex natura â—…ei sunt immutabiles immutabiliter verae Hosius in Confess Cap. 16. Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis et nos docentis So as Philomathes if you will not belieue vs yet your owne men may tell you Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe and would draw others with him in Darknesse Philadelphus Hee will haue vs to seeke after the Church as Children at Chacke-blynd-man groape after their Fellowes For first hee would picke out our Eyes or syle vs from seeing and then forsooth set vs a-searching But they who doe evill hate the Light and the Church of Rome had rather choose That this Debate were never decided than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought where-by they might bee found out who they are Through open Streete with lighted Lampe in hand A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone Where-of when one the Motiue did demand His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone 'Mongst Men more mad than Mamacks by the Moone I search sayde hee if I can finde one wyse Asse th' other sayde thyne Head is out of tune Canst thou discerne one though thou sawst him thryse But more your man is
to his bare bragging of the TRVETH Which TRVETH not-with-standing sayeth that Father if you can show so clearlie as it can not bee gayne-sayde it is to bee praeferred to all these thinges where-by I am holden within the Catholicke Church If the name of the Catholicke Church were in this place properlie to bee taken then should Augustine's supposed Case be ridiculous For Trueth can never be found any-where els but within the Catholicke Church taken properlie Where-by it is cleare that the Catholicke Church in this and such other places is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church which having Trueth should bee regarded But to whose Authoritie not the lesse the cleare Trueth found with never so few Holders is to bee preferred For Wee ought not to consent no not to Catholicke Bishops sayeth the same Father if they holde anie Opinion contrarie to Canonicke Scriptures Where-by is manifest both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned from the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and what force they placed in that Argument and that how-so-ever by them and in that tyme and case of a Church it was not inconvenientlie vsed yet that now in so farre different a state still to vsurpe it in a lyke manner were extreame impudencie This Chrysostome did both fore-see and gaue warning of it that the altered state of the Church behooved to bring men to a more neare and proper Rule of Examination as in his Testimonies aboue cited is cleare In that how-so-ever before that Heresie obtayned place in the Church and the abhomination of desolation stood also in sanctis Ecclesiae locis in the holie places of the Church manie wayes were to discerne the Church as while Trueth helde place in common was Vniversalitie improperlie taken Multitude Consent Succession c yet now after that hereticall contagion hath infected the Bodie in common no manner of way is to discerne the true Church amidst the corrupted communitie of the Church but onlie the Scriptures You are greatlie deceived Philomathes if you esteeme the Church therefore to bee called CATHOLICKE eyther because al-wayes the moste parte of men shall come in to her and embrace the Profession or yet That of such as come in to her the moste parte shall al-wayes holde the Trueth But Shee is CATHOLICKE because her Gates that are nowe casten open to all Kinreds Tongues and Nations that the righteous Nation may enter in And how-so-ever that neyther most part come in neyther of such as are in her is the most part of her or saved yet all vniversallie who are saved must both bee in her and of her And how-so-ever in her most part keepe not Trueth yet no Trueth is but in her If as your Men are al-readie perceiving and there-vpon are gnawing their Tongues for sorrowe the Trueth preached by vs take in short tyme such successe as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dryed vp and if Multitude and Consent of Nations shall bee with vs will you there-fore yeelde vs the Title of the Catholicke Church If multitude of Holders bee al-wayes a sure Marke of the true Church how sayeth the Scripture That All shall follow the Beast And you confesse That Antichrist when hee commeth shall obtayne Vniversallie Now if in Antichrist his vsurpation Vniversalitie shall bee no Note of the Church how see you not That verie vnjustlie you lay it al-wayes agaynst vs and That what-so-ever Vniversalitie you can alleadge for your Pope it exeemeth him not from beeing that Antichrist except hee cleare him-selfe by better Defences Thus I hope I haue cleared That wee neyther disprooue the Fathers reasoning agaynst Heretickes in opposing to them the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and yet that you haue not there-fore anie eyther Right in their Argument or Ground there-vpon to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Marke of the Church So as your man's mayne Proposition so farre as concerneth this Note of Vniversalitie is still sophisticall and vayne But nowe if it were even a discerning Marke as your Men would make it yet let vs trye howe justlie your Church doeth vindicate it to her selfe and let vs examine your Man's mayne Assumption in that part Philadelphus As you haue dressed his Proposition in that part I thinke all labour agaynst his Assumption were ydle For if CATHOLICKE can bee no discerning Marke of the Church no not anie Marke at all as you haue at length and evidentlie evinced how can it bee Romes Marke Eubulus Yet Philadelphus I will omit no-thing where-by I may possiblie induce Eriphilus to take more of my counsell But in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his mayne Argument where-by hee appropriateth to Rome the Title of the Catholicke Church I must protest Eriphilus that it bee no praejudice to my matter that you doe so confidentlie call your selues Catholickes and your Companie the Catholicke Church else if you will haue this your vsurping of that name to carrie anie weight and that therefore you will haue vs to account so of you I desire of you the same aequitablenesse in our Case That because wee both esteeme and call our selues The Catholicke Church and Catholicke Men that therefore you will holde vs for such Or if you consider that an Argument à dici ad esse concludeth not and that there-fore pertinentlie the Logicians place before their Categories the Distinction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of thinges that are sayde and of thinges that are Then let vs lay aside what eyther you of your selues or wee of our selues doe partiallie speake or arrogantlie arrogate and let vs trye what is true of vs both Philomathes Your Protestation is most aequitable For a bare Clayme except it bee instructed can make no Title Eubulus Then Philomathes in that part of your Poet's Ryme which is inscrybed CATHOLICKE and which you did lastlie reade besides the Proposition which I haue refelled hee assumeth That the Note of Catholicke or Vniversalitie conveaneth properlie to the Church of Rome Which false Assumption hee seeketh to sustayne by foure Reasons the first of which hee concludeth thus What Companie did take in hand and accordinglie first performed the publishing of the Gospell thorow the Worlde and converted all Nations to the Fayth that must bee the Companie to which the Title of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE properlie belongeth and that Companie is the Catholicke Church But the Church of Rome onlie did both vnder-take and performe this There-fore the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church and to her properlie that Note belongeth Now heere some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man to giue vs such whether a definition or description of Catholicke as till now none ever heard of Wee esteemed as I haue shewed that the Catholicke Church had beene that companie of what-so-ever Tyme Place or Nation which in the communion of one and the same Spirit joyned to their Head CHRIST doe make vp the fulnesse of His mysticall Bodie whether in the Heavens triumphing or as yet heere in their course fighting
this Argument as I vprightlie protest in the Presence of HIM Whome I serue in the GOSPELL of HIS Sonne That laying aside the verie selfe cleare and infallible Groundes of Trueth delivered in Scripture where-vpon agaynst all eyther Probabilities or Praesumptions our Fayth may and must solidlie relye there is no Reason in the Worlde so effectuall to assure my Soule of the Veritie of our Religion and that wee are of CHRIST His true Church as are the verie chiefe thinges which our Adversaries doe object agaynst vs. Neyther anie so pregnant a Motiue to perswade mee laying aside the consideration of their playne haereticall Opinions that they are the Antichristian Bodie as even those things where-in they doe chiefelie and most insolentlie glorie Which to cleare vnto you at such length and in such evidence as I well could and the Matter al-so requyreth it were a longer Speach than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth vs. But if you list to take paynes you may reade what I haue at more length written heereof in my DISPVTATIONS FOR OVR CALLINGES and in my COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION VVhich with the little that I haue nowe sayde when you haue more deeplie considered then if you remayne yet vnsatisfyed how-so-ever I neyther loue to contende vvith the Humourous nor to multiplye Babling vpon Blockes yet I vvill at your Desyre not sticke to take more paynes vpon your Ingenuitie Philomathes I will GOD willing reade those Bookes where-vnto you haue sharpened mine Appetite by that which you haue nowe spoken having there-by so filled mine Heart with great Doubts of such things as I accounted inexpugnable poynts that I can not choose but to insist till I bee setled as it shall please GOD to informe me in that which is the right Way of His Feare Philadelphus How invisible so-ever wee bee Eriphilus and how short so-ever you bee of sight yet I hope you may now perceiue your owne foyle in the chiefe Flowre of your Forces so as Eubulus hath not as you presumed evanished in Invisibilitie but hath made all your long and vaynlie vaunted of Visibilitie to vanish in a vayne Smoake What 's visible but there-to Visibilitie In common doth though not a-lyke conveane Why should the Bryde without all Probabilitie Visible hers then singularlie wiene Thinges visible attour are not aye seene And thinges ev'n seene yet will escape Perception Of lightned Men and what perceived beene Mules agaynst that will madlie make Exception The Church was aye seene visible perceived Of cleare but no of rakie Eyes that raved Philomathes Whether wee haue anie such Foyle as you alleadge or you such Victorie as you presume Philadelphus you are al-wayes readie to sing your owne Triumph But now al-be-it wee haue indeede al-readie passed thorow these Markes where-in wee esteeme our selues strongest and that Eubulus hath I must confesse answered more than I exspected yet I pray you let vs heare what he hath to say agaynst the rest The next Marke is VNITIE and thus our Poet speaketh of it CHAPTER VI. UNITIE THis is another Marke truelie The Church must haue VNITIE As our Saviour hath fore-tolde One Shepheard and one Sheep-folde One is my Spouse one is my Loue One is my Darling and my Doue This is His House and at some-tyme Hee doth resemble it to a Vine HIS Father is the Husband-man A Branch is everie Christian. This is HIS Bodie mysticall The which HEE doth HIS Kingdome call Where-of Saynct Peter had the Keyes And his Successours haue all-wayes This is the Pillar and the Ground Where-in all Trueth is to bee found So lyke-wyse Saynct Paul sayeth One Baptisme and one Fayth And one LORD IESU Haue no Dissention amongst you Shew mee anie Companie That in all Poyntes doe agree Except the Holie Church of Rome Then will I bee converted soone Eubulus That which as I thinke I haue evinced of all your Man 's former Marks I affirme of this also That it is impertinentlie yea falselie produced for a proper Marke of the Church in so farre as it is a common condition of manie thinges yea all thinges that are hoc ipso quod sunt anum sunt even in that they are they are in that same one as all Schooles acknowledge The Devils are vnited for Satan's Kingdome is not divided against it selfe And Briggands banded to robbe and sheede Blood are one So as still you see that your Man's mayne Proposition of his mayne Argument is vayne and sophisticall Neyther will VNITIE in all poynts ever conclude more of the Church of CHRIST than of the Antichristian bodie except VNITIE in all poynts be modified and of an indefinite VNITIE it be defined an VNITIE in all poynts of Trueth To which only demonstratiue Marke as I haue shewed of all the former so this of VNITIE must bee reduced also if there-on you would builde anie sure Conclusion For of the Antichristian Companie the holie Ghost hath in playne Tearmes fore-tolde These haue one mynde and shall giue their power and authoritie to the Beast and a little after For GOD hath put in their Hearts to fulfill his will and to doe with one consent for to giue their Kingdomes to the Beast vntill the wordes of GOD bee fulfilled And this is indeede that VNITIE where-of your Men so much glorie even a Conspiracie in Errour and no true VNITIE in Trueth as their manifolde and shamelesse Shiftings in a cleare evidence of a selfe-accusing-guiltinesse from subduing their doctrine to just examination by Scripture the sole Rule of Veritie make more than manifest Now Satan never yet envyed VNITIE in Errour or ZEALE in Superstition Philomathes Well to let this goe with you of VNITIE which you haue indeede evinced of the former that it is no proper Marke yet as I sayde and you also admitted of the others so you can not denye of VNITIE but that it is a true Attribute of the Church and that therefore our Man's Argument for the Church of Rome concludeth verie clearlie thus The Church of CHRIST must bee a Companie keeping Vnitie in all Poynts But onlie of all Companies the Church of Rome keepeth Vnitie in all Poynts There-fore the Church of Rome is the onelie true Church of CHRIST Eubulus I will not quarrell the forme of your Syllogisme for that your Assumption hath the nature of a negatiue Position I say your Proposition is sophisticall and your Assumption shameleslie false where-by your Conclusion commeth to nought As for the Proposition though you shold modifie your indefinite all Poynts to definitlie all Poynts of Trueth yet hath it in-folded a deepe Deceit For if it bee vnderstood of All Poyntes of Trueth so absolutelie as who keepe not Vnitie in all and everie poynt there-of bee excluded from the Title of CHRIST HIS Church then is your Proposition perniciouslie false And your Man would but frauduleâ—…tlie put foorth a bloodie Table of Proscription where-by cruellie to forfault manie good Christian and Church from the Communion of the Bodie