Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	authority_n	church_n	primitive_a	2,508	5	9.0550	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41335	Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652.	1692 (1692)	Wing F969; ESTC R31512	41,078	37

them to Ordain without Imposition of Hands One of them undertook it a Person whose Gifts and Graces I honour For Scriptures he gave me none Whether his Reasons be Cogent the sequel shall declare That Diminishing from the Word is as great a Sin as Addition to the Word none can deny the Text is expresly against them both Deut. 12.32 and ch 4.2 both offer an Affront to the Wisdom of the ●aw-giver Addition charges him with Defect Diminishing charges him with superfluity appointing things needless and vain Grant it that Imposition of Hands in Ordination be but a Ceremony yet it is God's Ceremony appointed first by his express Command Numb 8.10 14. Not to conferr Gifts as some would have it but to Separate to Office If you then could deny Communion with the Church of England because of their Addition of Humane Doctrinal Ceremonies to the Worship of God I doubt not but this was one Cause among others may we not then question our Communion with you in your Administring of the Holy things for throwing out God's Ceremony It is one thing to hold Communion with a Person as a Christian which I can do with all my Soul another thing to hold Communion with the same Person as a Minister dispensing the Holy things of God For when as in Separation to Office God's Ceremony expressed in five or six Scriptures is left out have you not given us just Cause setting by the Authority of God in those Scriptures to question the lawfulness of your Ministry O why do our Brethren lay such Blocks in our way to hinder that which the Lord hath so Commanded and we so earnestly desire and seek after Unity I have spoken with some Ordained thus and they told me they would have been Ordained with Imposition of Hands and expected it but they who did it refused it the more trouble have they made in the Church They who come into the Gospel-Ministry must come in according to Gospel-Order God stands upon his Order 1 Chron. 15.13 God made a Breach upon us for that we sought him not after Due Order How severe was the Holy Law-giver then but there was not Due Order nor is here Due Ordination God is the same God still the God of Order as well as then The Scriptures are plain in this Point why are not we as plain what need have we of other words them what we find in the Scriptures If Imposition of Hands were but an indifferent thing or but a circumstance of the Action I could Answer my self But it will appear to be that in which Separation to Office is principally made and in which only it is seen That godly and learned Men may err as well by Diminishing from the Word as such have done in Adding to the Word I know nothing against it they are but Men But these Men who as I judge diminish from the Word would not therefore Vnite and hold Communion with them in Worship where these Additions were because they were godly and learned Men. We have our Rule to look to not Men further than they walk according to that Rule If the Reader meet with the Word Independent I desire him not to be offended for this Discourse between my Brother and my self was before the Agreement of the Vnited Brethren came forth yet the word may be used sano sensu well enough For I doubt not a particular Church duely ●●ganized walking regularly may Execute all the Power of the Keys within it self without dependency upon any other Churches As to the End of my publishing this Treatise my Conscience bears me Witness before the Lord I aim but at these two things 1. To remove that Block if I could which hinders our hearty Union I know it offends many of our Brethren besides it gives advantage to them who observe our Practices to speak against us and that justly 2. To keep up the Authority of the Scriptures which are so plain in this Case that if we will own Ordination without Imposition of Hands to be Due Ordination then the Authority of five or six Scriptures is set by I know no other ground of our Sufferings but our maintaining of the Authority of the Scriptures while Men would be Imposing upon us such things in the House and Worship of God which if the Questions were truly stated which they never did have no footing or ground in the Holy Scriptures but were their Addition to them as if the Wisdom of God in the Scriptures were defective If we suffered then for the Authority of the Scriptures while Men added to them we will not give away their Authority now while men diminish from them Where shall we End if this be the Practice As to the Second Question I seek Light 1. To have but one Pastor or Teaching Elder in a Church agrees neither with the Holy Scripture nor sound Reason Good Mr. Faldo was troubled about it I understand by his Letter to me 2. The Poverty of the Churches generally is such that very few can maintain One then not more 3. Complaints have been made by some Members of Churches that their Pastors have not proceeded rightly against them and they had no help 4. If then the Holy Scriptures have not declared that the Officers and Members of a Church must meet alwayes in One Place then all Church-work may be carried on which as now we stand cannot be I begg of the Father of Lights to Guide Vs The Unworthiest of the United Brethren GILES FIRMIN The Prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers Minister in Wethersfield in Essex concerning King Charles the first and Arch-Bishop Laud. IF you ask me who this Mr. Daniel Rogers was he was the Son of Mr. Richard Rogers a Man eminent in Holiness whom God honoured to make him his Instrument in bringing home many Souls to Christ If you ask what he was for Grace himself His Brother Mr. Nathanael Ward use to say of him My Brother Rogers hath Grace enough for two men but not half enough for himself His Natural Constitution was no Advantage to Grace If you ask what he was for a Divine his Works Answer for him If you ask what he was for a Scholar two things declared him to be a Scholar one was this When Arch-Bishop Land Visited Mr. Rogers was Summoned to appear and did so whether Mr. Rogers did grapple with the Arch-Bishop I cannot tell but one that lived in the Town where I now do being then present at the Court heard the Arch-Bishop say to him Mr. Rogers I acknowledge you to be a better Scholar than my self but I will make you know your place And silenced him A second thing was this which I had from a Kinsman of mine who was of Clare-Hall at the same time if not the same Year with Mr. Rogers the Man was a very moderate Episcopal Man he told me this The Arch-Bishop sends down a Coryphaus this was the Word he used to the University of Cambridge to Challenge the

M● Quick's Sermo a● Mr. Faldo 's Fun●ral p. 22. What Mr. Q●ick writes I am both an Eye and Ear-witness to About fitty sour Years since he Preached on Mar. 2.5 in Boston in New-England and did think-the P●●●●-man had Faith because Christ tells him his Sins were forgiven but no Forgiveness without Faith up rose one first forsooth he was not satisfied then another after him then Mr. Cotton our Teacher he took up our Pastor's Case and defended it and ten one after another fell upon him Tho' the Text does not say when Jesus saw his but their Faith it doth not follow but the Palsie-man might be included in the word their and his Faith put them on both the Bearers and Palsie-man had Faith This was too common in that Church though the most publick where Seamen and all Strangers came Sir Henry Vane was the Man that did embolden them when Ministers had done Preaching he would find Questions to put to them though they were Strangers Second Question AReverend Author out of a Book composed as he tells us by several Bishops and great Doctors and approved by Authority in King Henry the Eighth's dayes hath Collected these Propositions First That a Parochial or Congregational-Church Government is accordint to the Church of England jure Divino Secondly That the Diocesan or National Government is jure Hamano Thirdly That Protestants except some obscure Writer assert Particular Churches to be the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Church-Government Among whom saith he there are these differences 1. The Episcopal and Presbyterian differ from the Congregational about the Extent of particular Churches i. e. the Congregational concludes there must be no more than are capable of Personal Communion The former make a greater extent and give too great advantage to Papacy 2. They differ concerning the Nature of Discipline the Congregational being esteemed an Espouser of a Democracy the Presbyterian of an Aristocracy the Episcopal of Monarchy But Maccovius a Theol. Polem p. 161. Keckerman b Syst Theol. p. 3. mention another Aristo Democratical and Dr. Ames c Medul Theol. p. 1. c. 33. thes 20. seems to be of the same judgment Fourthly All Protestants agree in afferting the Independency of particular Churches Thus far my Author That we may understand one another clearly Suppose we then that all the Christians in England that dwell in their several Parishes were such as deserved the Name of Visible Saints these meet every Lords-Day in their Parish-Church as they call it to Worship God where there is but one Pastor Lecturers and Readers are but in few Parishes in the Countrey nor have they any Power in Church-Government 1. Are these the particular Churches you mean by the words Parochial and Congregational I suppose my Brother means so 2. Is every such particular Church the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Power of the Keys 3. Are all these Independert my Brother hath said it First I desire my Brother would Name one such Church which the Apostles did Constitute but with one Teaching Elder or Paster Secondly How you may perswade the Pastor to admit the People to be Rulers with them I cannot tell but I doubt we should have a Monarclical-Government set up in every Parish in England which you say the Bishops espouse Mr. Norton as acute and Learned Divine as New-England had being at a Meeting of about forty Elders one that was newly come into the Countrey was reading to the Elders what his Judgment was about Church-Government He would have it to be Democratical quoting Morellus several times What have we to do with Mor●llus said Mr. Norton to me if I cannot prove the Government of the Church to be Presbyterial I will give up our Cause Thirdly If all these particular Churches be Independent I fear we should have wild doings Experience have proved it already At this day we see woful effects of it If there be one or two Gentlemen of Purse Piety and Parts that stick close to the Minister and awe the People things may go on quietly else if there be but two Self-conceited pragmatical Fellows as I have known you should soon see what will become of your Parochial-government Fourthly Suppose the Pastor be foully scandalized by some of his Church one or more how shall the Government be carryed on shall he be Plaintiff and Judge in his own Case I have known a Case where a Pastor had great Offence given I propounded the Case to Dr. Owen * And Mr. Faldo whether that Pastor should proceed according to Matth. 18.15 16 he told me by no means when he heard my Reason We shall meet with hard Cases if we come to set to Government indeed Fifthly Suppose the Pastor himself grow scandalous how shall Government be carried on now Sixthly Good Men and Ministers are subject to Passions and Infirmities whence it is not fit the Government of the Church should be Committed to One alone Seventhly To Govern will is a Gist by it self a Man may be a good Preacher but no good Governo●r Eighthly When our Lord sent out the Apostles and the Seventy only to Pre●●● he sent them out by two and two Mar. 6.7 L●k 10.1 Now a single Paster undertakes all Ninthly The Jewish Synagogues bad several Elders to carry on the Government in one of their Synagogues and we but one 〈◊〉 vident O●●li quam O●ul●s It is true our Pastor with his People may truely be called a Church as that Woman who had no Arms but held bee Pen between her Toes and so wrote 〈◊〉 have seen of her Writing 〈◊〉 may well be said to be Animal rationale a r●●io●●● Creature but had God made the W●●an so at first the Woman had not been a 〈…〉 to Man So here is a Company of V●●ible Stints one Pa●●or here is Preaching Prayer Administration of Sacraments and in some Cases Excresse of Discipline so that it is a true Church but not such a Church as the Aposlles sent by Christ did Con●●itute 〈◊〉 to answer all ends of a Church 't is imperfect defective and our Duty is to write after that Copy the Apostles of Christ have set us Dr. Owen hath proved there ought to be many Elders in every Church 2d Part of the Church p. 138. by Scriptures and Reasons I think sufficiently Soon after the Apostles in the Primitive Churches Mr. Clarkson in his Discourse against Diocesan Churches his first Book p. 5.21 hath shown there were more Presbyters in every Church than were necessary In those Virgin Churches in the Valleys of Piedmont which were never desiled with Popery but kept pure from the Apostles dayes where I find Ordination was with Imposition of Hands contrary to our Men I read in their low Condition seven Elders made a Classis they carryed on their Government by joint Councils they had their Consistories and 140 Pastors heretofore in a Synod Whence this one Teaching Elder or a single Pastor in a Church is a

Weighty Questions DISCUSSED I. Whether Imposition of Hands in Separating a Person to the Work of the Ministry be Necessary II. Whether it be Essential to the right Constitution of a particular Church that the Teaching Elders and the Members meet alwayes in One Place Whereunto is added A Prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers Minister in Essex long before the Beheading King Charles I. and Arch-Bishop Laud foretelling that they should not dye a Natural Death By GILES FIRMIN Author of the Real Christian What thing soever I Command you observe to do it thou shalt not add thereto nor diminish from it Deut. 13.32 LONDON Printed for the Author 1692. To the READER THat Unity among Christian Brethren is a thing not only beautifull in it self but also a Duty greatly incumbent upon them who profess that blessed Name of Christ none that read the Holy Scripture can be ignorant of it yea a Duty so greatly incumbent that they who do not all they can to promote it provided the Authority of the Scriptures be preserved taking care that they neither profess nor practise any thing in the House of God but what is according to the Holy Scriptures lest that Vnity should be hindered they neither shew that respect to the Command of Christ to us nor to the Prayer he made to his Father for this End as become Christians I thought I might have said At that Holy Table where we being many are one bread 1 Cor. 10.17 I do admit Independents Presbyterians Anabaptists Members of the Church of England that are and walk as Christians tho' we differ in Opinion and here Ecclesiastical Vnion is chiefly seen that both in former times and in these dayes I had been as desirous of this Vnity as some other Men. Glad I was when I heard some Brethren of the Independant and Presbyterial Perswasion in London did attempt it their Names were very dear unto me when I heard who they were that laboured in it tho' I knew none of them more glad I was when about four Years since a Copy of the Agreement was sent me to which my Brethren in the Countrey and my self readily consented We expected the same should have been Published but we find another much different from it In particular in the former Ordination was to be performed with Imposition of Hands but in this the Words are left out and these words put in The Person that is Chosen shall be Duely Ordained not expressing what that Due Ordination is However as it is worded I Consent to this and whatever be the different Sentiments I have from others in several things mentioned and more than are mentioned in the Agreement yet I have willingly Subscribed to it and Profess my self a Vnited Brother with all that are Duely Ordained In a small Treatise which some few Years since I published I took Notice of the Apostolical Churches how they were Constituted I named Nine Churches all that I could find in which were several Elders I find not one Church in the Gospel where was but One Pastor Since that Dr. Owen hath taken Notice of it and hath proved by several Scriptures and Reasons that there ought to be many Elders in every particular Church There were three Teaching Elders besides other Officers in his Church this was like a Gospel Church To have but one Pastor to govern is a Novel Opinion he saith and what he adds is true It is difficult if not impossible on supposition of one Elder only in a Church to preserve the Rule of the Church from being Prelatical or Popular As there ought to be many Elders in one Church so I doubt not but the true Primitive Church-Government was by a President with the Presbytery Not a President over more Churches but only one particular Church Not a President superiour in Power over the Presbytery but only Ordinis gratiâ Revel 2.18 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (a) The President 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (b) The President with the Presbytery So Beza and Raynoldus Anglorum Eruditissimus c. saith Didocla Alta. Damas p. 131. the light of Nature directs to this I would willingly have but one Instance given where this Government was ever prejudicial to the Church More I could say I only mention this that tho' in these Points I may differ from my Brethren besides what are mentioned in the Agreement yet it hinders not my Vnion with them What this Due Ordination is our Brethren as I said have not told us Hence the Discussing of this Question falls not under that Prohibition p. 3. that we must not Dispute those different Sentiments For our Sentiments do all agree it must be Due Ordination which if it be not declared what it is we agree and Subscribe to we know not what Before I Subscribed I asked the Brethren whether the Subscribing to this Agreement did debar us from an amicable discussing the Questions wherein we differ they All Answered No. We were not hindered by it We know the different Sentiments before we Subscribe the Agreement and tho' we Dispute them yet our Vnion holds as well as if we did not dispute them The Apostle exhorts 1 Cor. 1.10 and Phil. 2.2 that we be all of one Mind of one Judgment If we must not labour after it to what purpose is the Exhortation Is not the discussing Controverted Questions in a Christian amicable way seeking Light from God and setting up his Ends not our own one way to come to be of one mind which the Apostle exhorts to I am sure it is and could give good proof of it from experience in the Question now disputed If we may not do this then it is as much as to say There are different Sentiments amongst us and shall be so for still I say the End of the Agreement which is Union is preserved As to the Question of Ruling Elders which have continued in the Virgin Churches of the Vaudois from the Apostles dayes and in the Churches of Bohemia The Apostle mentioning only Bishops and Deacons 1 Tim. 3. troubles me where their Work is laid open with much more satisfaction to me than in any Book I have yet seen in England I shall be thankfull to any Brother who will dispute the Question Pro or Con it shall not hinder Vnion As to this Question about Ordination it is to my Knowledge a great hinderance of our Vnion The thing is so clear in several Texts of Scripture how it should be performed and the Practice of the best if not all the Churches since the Apostles times have been accordingly with Imposition of Hands that I have wondered any Man should scruple it I heard of an Ordination in our County of an illiterate Person and that without Imposition of Hands after it was past hearing of another who is a Scholar to be Ordained by the same Persons I wrote to him to desire the Elders that were to Ordain him to give me the Scriptures which did Warrant