which you say to be true that you held all faire correspondencie with them that might be upon other grounds for your own advantage and benefit many wayes you being strangers and they in their own countrey as also to see if you could gaine any of their Ministers to your Church-way And as for your receiving some of their members unto communion in the Sacraments that might be but to strengthen your own way and to advance that Church-principle of receiving them by vertue of their relation of membership And here I desire to put two questions to you 1. Whether in receiving some members of the Dutch Churches who desired to communicate with you you put them upon professing themselves to be members of their Churches and belonging thereunto as you did the English who came to you 2. Though you received some of them unto communion in your Churches whether any of you ever received the Lords Supper in any of their Churches or in any of the English Churches in Holland who were not of your way and communion But grant all you say in all your profession of your respect and holding communion with the Dutch Churches whereby you would free your selves from the imputation of Separation and make the Reader beleeve the Brownists and you had no affinity I answer You say no more nor hardly so much as Mr Robinson writ in his Apologie 25 yeares since of those Reformed Churches page 10 11. Now for the way and practise of our Churches we give this briefe and generall account Our publike worship was made up of no other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches doth consist of As publike and solemne prayers for Kings and all in authority c. the reading the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament Exposition of them as occasion was and constant preaching of the word the administration of the two Sacraments Baptisme to Infants and the Lords Supper singing of Psalmes collections for the poore c. every Lords day For Officers and publike Rulers in the Church we set up no other but the very same which the reformed Churches judge necessary and sufficient and as Instituted by Christ and his Apostles for the perpetuall government of his Church that is Pastors Teachers Ruling-Elders with us not lay but Ecclesiastique persons separated to that service and Deacons And for the matter of government and censures of the Church we had nor executed any other but what all acknowledge namely Admonition and Excommunication upon obstinacie and impenitency which we blesse God we never exercised This latter we judged should be put in execution for no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light as whether it be a sin in manners and conversation such as is committed against the light of nature or the common received practises of Christianity professed in all the Churches of Christ or if in opinions then such as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity and the power of godlinesse professed by the party himselfe and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sins to be the subject of that dreadfull sentence In this Section you give us a Narration of the way and practises of your Churches Wherein in the beginning you tell the Reader We give this briefe and generall account But how much better had it been and more proper to have given a full and particular account here then in your other parts about New-England and the Reformed Churches in Holland A full and particular account of the way and practises of your Churches had answered more the nature of such a Narration and would have satisfied all men but why did you in the most materiall part give such a briefe and generall account knowing that under brevities and generalities there lies much mistake and deceit And let me tell you this briefe and generall account falls short of your way and practises and either you had bad memories in your writing this Apologie about the parts of your worship Officers and censures to forget some of them or else you have on purpose conceal'd them holding out the bright side of the cloud namely what the Reformed Churches practise but hiding the back which is so much the more justly to be excepted against because as you set down the words and give the account they are not true but I can say and make it good too your publike worship was made up of other parts then the worship of all other Reformed Churches namely of Prophesying in your Congregations and for Officers and publike Rulers in the Church you set up others then the reformed Churches namely Widdowes And for the matter of government and censures of the Church you have executed others besides Admonition and Excommunication namely deposition of a Minister and confession of offences publikely and orderings of solemne Fasting for Humiliation upon confession of sins as your selves relate the story in the 16th page and one and twentieth besides you hold other censures of the Church the Sentence of of Non-communion with Declaration and Protestation to all other Churches as appeares by your own relation page 17 18 19. For publike worship that you exercised prophecying I could name unto you who of the members have prophecied at Arnheim and upon what subject but I spare them I could tell you how Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson fell out upon the point of Prophecie as Mr Bridge informed me and of the exercising of Prophesie in Mr Sympsons Church at Rotterdam as well as at Arnheim I could out of manuscripts produce how arguments are framed to draw away people from our Churches upon this ground as being defective in some ordinances namely prophesying And besides prophesying I propound it to you whether some of you have not held out some other publike worship then the reformed Churches hold namely Hymns and annointing the sick members of the Church with oyle As also whether a little before your comming over into England some members of the Church of Arnheim did not propound the holy kisse or the kisse of love to be practised by Church-members Nay whether by some persons in that Church was it not begun to be used and practised And in this enumeration of the parts of publike worship I desire to know why you put in c. and what is meant by c. for that implies more parts then you enumerate And we know c. is a dangerous and suspicious phrase ever since the late Canons and Oath for under that c. may be meant Prophesying and Hymnes and Annointing with oyle and the Kisse of love and many other parts which the reformed Churches practise not and so your publike worship may be made up of many other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches and that there is great cause to speake thus and doubt appeares because I know not nor cannot reckon up any other part of publike worship
as they see just ground the controversie were at an end 4. The Corporations that is those in place and power if they proceed unjustly are accountable to the State they live in that is to a higher civill power and adjudged themselves in cases of wrong condemning the innocent suffering delinquents to escape but your Corporations of particular Congregations even in case of reall Administration are against all judging and all Ecclesiasticall Authoritative power out of your own Congregations To the fifth Reason hinted by you to strengthen your practise that it was safe and allowed and the Reformed Churches more questionable namely appealing to them who have read books whether much hath been written with strength setly and directly to prove that government but rather to overthrow Episcopall and to maintaine those severall Officers in Churches which Christ hath instituted and therefore you inferre you might have more ground to question this government of combined classicall Presbyteriall government I answer the ground of that is fully laid down in the Reformation of the Church of Scotland page 17 and 18. with an account of what hath been written and done by the reformed Churches in France for the Presbyteriall way and against the popular Independent way which is more then you once in this Reason hinted but suppose that in former writings of Calvin Beza Zanchius Peter Martyr Danaeus Iunius Zeppâ—…rus Gersom Bucerus Dr Reynolds Parker there hath not been much setly and directly insisted on and with strength to prove the government of Synods and Classes though in some of these more especially as against the Church of Rome and Episcopall government much strength is brought for the government by Synods and Classes yet that which those Divines of Scotland Holland England have written of late against the Independent congregationall government might have been enough to have satisfied you and that 's not materiall that no more have written seeing out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established and if these books had not strength to satisfie you why have not you all this while answered them but I must mind you of forgetting one of your own Divines for besides the learned Licensers booke against Independencie another booke was written cald Reasons against the Independent government of particular Congregations and the Toleration of them in this Kingdome which booke in your seeming to take no notice of I beleeve you remember above the rest and in the 25 page of your Apologie it appeares you remember it but the Authour of it belike is none of your Divines And in the close now of this answer to your Reasons hinted about the government and discipline of the Church why you in your Congregationall way should be in the truth but the Presbyteriall government was a question to you and judged an additament because the Presbyterians allowed you what you practised and granted what you held but themselves held and practised over and above I answer this is no Argument at all for by the same reason the Samaritans should have worshipped God truly but the Iewes falsely and the Samaritans might have said to the Iewes as you doe to the Presbyterianns the five books of Moses which we owne to be sure they are from God you acknowledge them but for the books of the Prophets that 's a question which rests upon you that allow what we hold to make evident and demonstrate and so the Iews may now by the same reason speake against the Christians and say we are in the safer way to be sure we practise safely for you Christians confesse what we hold namely Moses and the Prophets to be the Scriptures but for the new Testament that is to us a question and an additament which therefore rests upon you Christians to make good who beleeve and practise over and above us And whereas the common prejudice and exception laid into all mens thoughts against us and our opinions is that in such a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so grossâ—… no reliefe for wrongfull sentences or persons injured thereby no roome for complaints no powerfull or effectuall meanes to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into heresie schisme c. but every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their own eyes we have through the good providence of God upon us from the avowed declarations of our judgements among our Churches mutually during our exile and that also confirmed by the most solemne instance of our practise wherewith to vindicate our selves and way in this particular which upon no other occasion we should ever have made thus publike God so ordered it that a scandall and offence fell out between those very Churches whilst living in this banishment whereof we our selves that write these things were then the Ministers one of our Churches having unhappily deposed one of their Ministers the other judged it not only as too sudden an act having proceeded in a matter of so great moment without â—…nsulting their sister Churches as was publikely professed we should have done in such cases of concernment but also in the proceedings thereof as too severe and not managed according to the rules laid downe in the word In this case our Churches did mutually and universally acknowledge and submit to this as a sacred and undoubted principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches that as by vertue of that Apostolicall command Churches as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Iew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live amongst So that in all cases of such offence or difference by the obligation of the Common Law of communion of Churches and for the vindication of the glory of Christ which in common they holdforth the Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence or complaint of the person wronged to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches offended thereat of what ever hath given the offence And further that by vertue of the same and like law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the impenitencie of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of with-drawing and renouncing all Christian communion with them untill they doe repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like And what further authority or proceedings purely Ecclesiasticall of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending either the Scriptures doe holdforth or can rationally be put in execution without the Magistrates interposing a power of another nature unto which we upon his particular cognisance and examination of such causes professe ever to submit and also to
open triall and what speake you of roome for complaints and of subjecting to an open triall and review of what can be brought and of being censurable by neighbour Churches c. Whether be not all these the usuall phrases and expressions of acts of power and government can there be so much as triall and examination and judiciary charges and deposition of witnesses without authority much lesse censure can you ever shew it either in civill government in Common-wealth or in Ecclesiasticall in Churches out of Scripture or stories where all these acts were exercised and practised by persons who only had power of counsell and advice and if you cannot how can you make it good but that this must be more then advice and counsell namely authoritative power It is given as a rule by your selves that in matters of a common nature 't is in Ecclesiasticall government as in civill Now if in all civill Assemblies all these acts and practises be acts of authority and government why holds it not so in Ecclesiasticall And further to reason though Churches be sisters and equall each considered by it selfe yet in cases of offence and difference between Churches the Churches complained and appealed unto to whom the rest submit should now be greater and have more power in this thing then the Churches submitting and their acts should be authoritative as in reason 6 or 8 men falling out and choosing and submitting to others to heare the businesse and make an end of it these are now greater and have a power and authority over these quo ad hoc and in these acts and what they doe are acts of power which they must stand unto or suffer the penalty Thirdly You speake more then once upon occasion of this scandall committed in that Church at Rotterdam of Churches as in the plurall number sister Churches to be consulted with before hand and of your Churches mutually and universally acknowledging that principle of submission and how that Church â—…hich with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence and of requiring a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation Now what and where were those other Churches of whom all this is spoke I grant that at Arnheim was one Church that Mr Bridges Church should have consulted with or have submitted to but where were any other Churches I will yeeld the Church at Arnheim might by letters declare their offence but I know not what other Churches did by letters doe the like I grant the Church at Arnheim was a Church of our Nation before whom the offending Church did yeeld a publike hearing but I know of no other I will not question but that the Church at Arnheim and Mr Bridges Church did upon the offence of deposing Mr Ward acknowledge that principle of submission and submit to one another but I doubt no other did then mutually submit for besides the Church at Arnheim offended and Mr Bridges Church offending there was no other Church of your way and communion for the offending Church to consult with or that did write letters or before whom the businesse was heard c. for I suppose and judge Mr Simpsons new Church being at that difference with Mr Bridges Church and Mr Bridge with him Mr Bridges Church should not have consulted with Mr Simpsons before hand and that Mr Bridges Church would not have yeelded the principle of submission to have submitted to a full triall and examination of all proceedings before Mr Simpsons and in case Mr Simpsons Church had sent letters declaring their offence they would have declined it as partiall and as accounting them the parties offending and I never heard that Mr Simpson with some messengers of his Church joyned with the messengers of Arnheim in the triall of that businesse of Mr Ward or sate as Judges c. so that I cannot tell why you use Churches in the plurall number thus all along in that businesse but that the Reader might conceive for your greater authority and esteeme and for the greater solemnity of the action there were more Churches besides that at Arnheim Fourthly For those two Gentlemen who were sent with the Ministers of the Church offended to require an account whether were those Gentlemen Elders of the Church of Arnheim or private members only If they were not Elders why were private members sent before Elders shew us a rule for that and satisfie us how private persons and no officers of the Church should represent the Church but if they were Elders why doe you name them Gentlemen only and not speake of them as officers 5. Whether though you make so sure of it yet it be not to be doubted upon the grounds of reason and light of nature that it is not more brotherly and more suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with but a point of greater authority inequality and usurpation for foure men grant them to be a Church representative to take upon them what those foure members of Arnheim did to a whole Church for so many dayes so fully and judiciarily to proceed as you write in the 21 page then for a whole Presbyterie of Ministers and Elders or a grave Synod to call to an account and heare the offences of two or three in a particular Church and together with that Church representative to decree such censures as publike acknowledgement of their offences or excommunication c. Sixtly I much wonder how you can call the meeting of Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye with two Gentlemen more calling Mr Bridge with the rest of that Church supposed to be delinquents such a solâ—…mne Assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an imprâ—…ssion upon your hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever you have beeâ—… present at Certainely you have either been but at few solemne Assemblies where Christs dreadfull presence hath been or else your phancie was mighty high at that time as to make such a deepe impression upon you of a dreadfull presence as ever you have been at Let me aske Mr Nye what was this Assembly beyond the solemne generall Assembly of Scotland where you were present when the great solemne Covenant of the Kingdomes passed of which you write so highly into England or was it beyond the Assembly of Divines wherein not only two of you are for consultation but all you â—…ive with so many other godly Divines where instead of two Gentlemen assisting then here the Worthies of both Houses Lords and Commons assist nay a Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe where much of the piety learning and wisedome of two Kingdomes are met in one as your selves confesse afterwards in the 27 page I am of the mind there are ordinarily many Assemblies and where you may have been that have a more dreadfull presence of Christ then that had The Church meeting to partake in the Lords Supper cal'd the dreadfull and terrible houre by some of the Fathers
Scriptures the authority of Councels and Synods and you shall find satisfaction to most of the materiall grounds which have misled you in your Church-way In which answers you shall find that the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scripture is principally meant in matters of doctrine and in points necessary to salvation And for policie and externall order wherein the Scriptures doe reach to them it is to be understood of the Essentials Substantials and Fundamentals of Government and Discipline and not of the accidentals accessaries and circumstantials as I could abundantly out of Calvin Beza Zanchius Iunius Daneus shew you But I intend a whole Tractate upon that question of the Scriptures how farre they are a rule for all matters of externall government and order in the visible Church with an answer to this objection particularly and will not enlarge further saving only that I will adde the resolution of this question and case out of Whitaker Chamier and Cameron who are full and cleare that 't is not against the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that all matter of externall order and policie are not laid down in the word Learned Chamier shewes the judgement of the Churches of France Holland nay he shews 't is the perpetuall opinion of all the Protestants and he adds Yea truly to speake as the matter is The Church cannot be altogether without unwritten traditions and he instances in certain Rites according to places times and persons changeable and various So Cameron For since the Scripture hath been ordained of God to make one wise unto salvation and perfect unto every good work it must without doubt containe all doctrine necessary to salvation otherwise it could not attaine its end Let us then adore as Tertullian speakes the fulnesse of the Scriptures and let us not heare as Athanasius speaketh neither receive any thing besides or above them in that which concernes the doctrine of faith For touching the policie and ceremonies used in the Church it is another matter we avouch that the Fathers did not thinke themselves bound to give an account of them by the Scripture So Dr Whitakers speaks also the same in that question and controversie of the perfection of the Scriptures against humane traditions Catholici in hoc toto negotio distinguendum putant inter râ—…s quae traduntur in Ecclesia rationem earum tradendarum res ipsas esse duorum generum scilicot alias in quibus substantia est quasi conpus religionis Christianae non tantum ad fidem sed etiam ad mores formandos politiamque Ecclesiae continendam proinde necessarias ex vi institutionis divinae alias ejuâ—… essentiae velut appondices ejusque corporis ornamenta neque ex sâ—… neque ex institutiono divina necessarias sed potiuâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 politiâ—… tantum causa in usum receptas ut sunt disciplinae partos varijs caenoâ—…ibus sancitae Imo vero ut fateamur quod res est omnino non potest Ecclesia carere Traditionibus non scripâ—…is sive intelligas quotidianam tradendae fidâ—…libus ojus veritatis quae non aliunde hauritur quam è libris sacris rationem sive ritus quosdampro locis tempâ—…ribus persâ—…nis varios aptos tamen exercendae pietati charitatique conservandae qui etsi non extent in canone totidem literis tamen a nemine contemni debent eo ipso quod ab Ecclesia id est pastoribus instituti sunt dum tamen nihil officiant aut sinceritati doctrinae aut libertati conscientiae cui propriè leges prescribit non nisi Deus Non dicimus omnes liberas ceremonias esse nominatim in Scripturis traditas ut quemadmodum se gerere debeant homines in sacris caetibus hujusmodi quas esse varias 〈◊〉 pro temporum personarum ratione minime ignoramus de caeremonijs inquam liberis quae ad externam tantum politiam decorum pertinent non contendimus sed de necessaria doctrina Haec perpetua illae vero non perpetuae sed ad tempora accommodatae Deinde fatemur Apostolos in singulis Ecclesiis ritus aliquos atque consuetudines ordinis decoris causa sanxisse non autem scripsisse quia hi ritus non fuerunt perpetui futuri sed liberi qui pro commodo temporum ratione muâ—…ri possunt Praescriptos autem ab illis esse ejusmodi ritus aliquos ad honestam Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accommodatos pater ex 1 Cor. 11. 14. cap. Tantum generalis regula habetur in Scripturis omnes istosritus ad adificationem ac decorum esse dirigendos sed ipsi particulares ritus non proponuntur At dicimus omnia quae necessaria sunt sive ad fidem sive ad vitam spectent apertè abundè in Scripturis explicari Now as for the exception made by you of this rule of meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature where what you affirme seems to amount to this that you practised all the examples of the Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles excepting those Suffer me to aske you these few questions upon your exceptions made of this first rule First What you meane by meere circumstances and what by the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate because the Reader may be much deceived in these generall and doubtfull expressions you should have done well to have particularized what you judge circumstances and what meere circumstances and what be the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as also have laid downe before the Reader how you in your Church-way keepe unto these and I aske the rather because I find a Sermon of Mr Bridge one of the Authors of this Apologie preacht before the House of Commons not long before this Apologie came forth that makes none of these exceptions but excepts and excludes them shewing that in the visible Church Gods word is our line able to reach unto all particular affaires of the Churches and in particular he labours to answer that of circumstances and perverts two sayings of Luther and Bishop Iewel Secondly Whether you doe practise and observe your own rule here given with the exceptions made by you or whether you doe not much depart from it in your Church-way not yeelding to meere circumstances nor the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as for instance receiving the Lords Supper at night contrary to the practise of the reformed Churches standing upon that circumstance of time denying appeales from the particular Congregations whereas appeales are a rule the law of nature doth in common dictate Thirdly I demand of you how you could so nakedly propound the Apostolicall directions patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches to walke by excepting meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature and not except withall extraordinary and miraculous personall and particular occasionall and accidentall temporary and locall patterns and examples
I owne the Scripture for the rule rightly understanding it and in matters of Discipline and Church-order professe to walke by it desiring to be tied to the Scripture patterns particularly to the patterns of examples and precepts recorded in the new Testament provided this be understood in essentials and fundamentals of order in matters of perpetuall use and of a common reason to all times and places only I adde that in some things where in matter of order and externall government there may be no such cleare directions either by precept or example there generall rules of the word with deductions out of Scripture examples and from precepts by way of Analogie with rules of common prudence be taken in too Now the interpretation of this rule as I have laid it downe being rejected and the rule simply taken up without such limitations will produce a wilde and strange discipline and Church-order to practise all things recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles without distinction and difference of those times persons places and ours and on the other hand to practise nothing but what hath a cleare example or precept is strange too and in so doing reasonable men cannot become a Church society nor exercise Church communion And however in matters of externall government and administration of holy things in the visible Church some pretend to this to practise whatever they find recorded in the Scriptures and to practise nothing whatsoever they find not there yet none of the Independents no not the highest forme of them the Anabaptists nor the highest sort of Anabaptists who were called Apostolici from their pretending to imitate the Apostles in all things ever yet have or doe practise all patternes and examples recorded in the new Testament or are contented with them alone but practise somewhat over and above not particularly recorded in Scripture I could lay downe a catalogue of many particulars specified in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles not practised in your Churches nor in any Churches of the independent way as also of many things practised by you which we never read of in the Scriptures so that all the Independents are in many things according to the first patterne both defective and excessive But I referre the full handling of this to a Tractate I intend concerning the Scriptures How farre the Scriptures are a rule for all matters of Church government and order in the visible Church I adde only one thing for the Readers sake that they be carefull to understand this first principle of yours not so nakedly as you lay it downe in page 8 9 10 11. because it hath been is and may be a rock to split many on and an Ignis fatuus to lead many into waters instead of a sacred pillar of fire to guide to Heaven in a safe way This foolish imitation of the Apostles in all things in matters of externall order hath been and is the great foundation of evils on all hands both in many practises and points of Popery and amongst the Anabaptists as I could demonstrate in particulars Learned Danaeus in his Commentaries upon 1. Tim. cap. 5. speakes of it Schlusselburgius writes also that there is a sort of Anabaptists cal'd Apostolici so named because they professed to imitate the Apostles in all things they washed one anothers feet they held all things ought to be common they travailed up and downe without staffe shooes cloake money because of Christs words they went up to the tops of houses to preach because Christ had said what you have heard in the eare preach upon the house top Now how farre the want of these limitations and distinctions in this your first rule hath led some of you into errors and strange practises and may leade you further as into annoynting the sick with oyle baptising in rivers c. I leave you to consider of But yet this first and great principle upon which you went and reared up your new Church way how difficult and abstruse a rule and how doubtfull a ground-worke doe you make it before you passe from it by making that supposition upon it If the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed And that you cannot professe that sufficiency of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules c. Now then brethren consider with your selves according to your owne grant how for all this principle of the Primitive patterne to guide you by yet it being so hard to know and find out the way and you not having that sufficiencie of knowledge to lay forth the rules how easily might you be out of the way then for all this principle and how can we indeed thinke otherwise of you being a few men and going by your selves So that supposing the Apostolicall directions and Primitive examples of the Churches not excluding the Old Testament and Gospels to be the only rule of the outward administration and government of the visible Church and granting these were more especially in your eye to guide and steere your practise by considering by your own confession there is so much difficulty to make these out and to lay downe what is a binding and standing direction and what not what is meerly circumstantiall and what not and how to apply many things which fall out to such rules and such examples recorded Yet wee may see how unsafe and dangerous it was for you and for a few persons to set up Churches and Church-government and we may hence learne what great use and need there is of Synods and Assemblies to draw out Church-government and discipline and still in all difficult cases to meet for the debating and determining of things And by the way let me admonish many of your followers of their boldnesse and rashnesle of determining in matters of Church-government and order holding all things about discipline and Church-government to be so manifestly and clearely laid downe in the Scriptures as the light of the Sunne and thereupon censuring many for not holding with them imputing it to their want of self-deniall and spirituall knowledge By this they may see their great Leaders judge otherwise who speaking upon the Scriptures being a compleate rule to make the Churches perfect put in a caution and declare They cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst them Now if the Apologists men so able cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge c. who yet according to their owne Narration tell us how they saw the darke part before many others and how they had all that light of the Non-conformists Reformed-churches New-England c. What shall we thinke of a few private illiterate Christians setting up of Churches and framing a government will this assure them though the Scriptures be a perfect rule for Church-government and this is the supreme rule
of the piety wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one c. which testimony given by you to this Assembly and that Character given by you of the people and the Professours of this Kingdome in page 24. and 28. are worthy to be observed and are of great use in these times when the Assembly and their proceedings are so much traduced and spoken against by your followers and Churches and let me make this use of it to the people and sadly put this question to their Consciences Whether is more probable that an Assembly so judicious of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the pietie wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one going in Gods way as you say page 28. making it their worke and businesse to find out the Government and the truth about the order of the Church visible and giving freedome of debates to men of different mindes and apprehensions seeking God publiquely and privately daily with so many prayers put up for them in all Churches at home and abroad beyond the Seas should find out the truth or Mr Lockyer Mr Batchelor Mr Carter with a company of weake ignorant men and women youths and maids apt to be seduced and ready to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way As to those words We would much rather have chosen to have been venting them to the multitude apt to be seduced I answer so you did much rather chuse to vent your opinions and principles both in publique and private to the multitude apt to be seduced according to the opportunities you had these three yeares then to communicate them to your godly brethren of the Ministerie as I have before fully shewed For this passage of yours But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and reforming the Churches of Christ wee have adventured our selves upon this way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State whether this be so or no that you have had a conscientious regard to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truth and reforming the Churches of Christ let my last answer and what is before proved witnesse and if out of a conscientious regard to the orderly c. you adventured to be members of the Assembly and upon this way by an Assembly of searching out truths why did you not before the Assembly forbeare the disorderly and unpeaceable way of venting your selves to the multitude and of gathering Churches c. as also since the Assembly the disorderly and unpeaceable way of searching out truths in writing this Apologie in preaching some Sermons with some other practises which were no orderly nor peaceable wayes of searching out truths especially the Assembly sitting But them beleeve you that will I judge and that upon grounds and hints already given that other things made you adventure to be of the Assembly and to come thither constantly rather then the conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and I cannot let passe without some animadversions the phrase used by you here of your being members of the Assembly We have adventured our selves a very significant and true expression for I beleeve you accounted this Assembly a great Adventure for your Church-way and such a bottome as you would not have put it in at least not so soon if all the wayes you could have devised under heaven would have hindred it but it happened to you according to the Proverbe Nothing venture nothing have for supposing there must be an Assembly you might perhaps by being members of it doe your selves and way some good but by declining and refusing it you had been certainly lost But brethren what is the reason that in this Section wherein you give so full a testimonie to the Assembly and of your great adventuring to be members of it that you annex in the close these words following And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages both of number abilities of learning Authoritie the streame of publique interest trusting God both with our selves and his own truth c. Whether does not this somewhat reflect upon the Assembly as if there were a great hazard that things would be carried there by number abilities of learning Authority the streame of publique interest rather then by truth for if points were not likely to be carried so by plurality of Votes c. but by the clearest proofes from Scripture then these were no disadvantages to you but all the advantage would lie on that side whether many or few whether greater Scholars or lesse that could bring the strongest Scripture grounds and I must tell you that in such an Assembly as you confesse this is and is well known to be both for the persons and ends of its calling that great liberty of speech and debate with that solemne Protestation taken by every member at first sitting there a man need not account those things specified by you for any disadvantages for any two or three men nay one of a different judgement in Doctrine or discipline from that Assembly having truth on his side and but so much learning as to manage and make out his evidences though a man of no authority might easily cause the consciences of most there to owne and fall downe before that truth and to change their mindes yea and to blesse God for the light and imbrace the person or persons that brought it much lesse need you whose number is sufficient about ten besides some who are halfe Independents having parts and abilities enough and Authority to manage your arguments and even to command free and long audience complaine of these things for disadvantages but I am jealous this passage is here inserted and brought in to possesse the peoples minds fearing by this time this Apologie was set out things might not goe on your side and to give them something to confirme them in your way to teach them what to say namely though you had the truth and brought such strong arguments as were not answered yet you could not be heard but matters were carried against you by pieces the greater number of the Assembly by far being of another judgement as also by the streame of publike interest Authority c. And many of the people of the Church way speake thus already that the Assembly cannot answer your arguments but beare you downe with numbers the Parliament should have done well to have chosen as many of your way as on the other side and then there would have been a faire and even triall but I will examine all your disadvantages apart and give you and the Reader a particular account of them First For Number though you have not so many of your judgement in the Assembly yet you have a competent number to plead your cause and to be the mouth for all of your way to speake
not deale fairely in abridging the Scriptures and making your supreme rule so narrow as the Acts and Epistles and I might justly stand upon it to make you inlarge your rule to the books both of Old and new Testament yet well knowing the Acts of Apostles and Epistles will cast you I am well contented and most ready at that weapon alone to try it with you and care not in the present controversie of the Church-way as to let all other Authours so for the old Testament and that part of the New too the Gospells to stand by And if you can make good out of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles by any Apostolike direction patterne or example of those Primitive Churches directed by the Apostles many things you practise and maintaine as Ordination of Ministers by the people alone as your Church-covenant as a few private Christians to gather and constitute a Church as persons to be members of such Congregations where they live constantly many miles distant from their Ministers and the meeting places with other such I will yeeld the cause and if I make not good from the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles things mainly opposed by you but affirmed by us As that of particular Churches to consist of more then can meet in one place to be edified in all parts of worship with other such then blame me So that I may say of your Church-way and the questions between us as Tertullian answered long since some hereticks That if they were to be determined by the Scriptures they would not subsist Now as to the ground of this principle within you yeur consciences were possest with that reverence and adoration of the fullnesse of the Scriptures that there is therein a compleate sufficiency as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect c. First I answer Your ground here alledged doth not prove your supreame rule without you namely the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles to be compleatly sufficient to make the Churches of God perfect because that speakes as of the whole Scriptures that there is in them a compleat sufficiencie and not as of a part now though the Scriptures may be and are so full and perfect yet every part may not you can in reason conceive that the whole may be compleatly sufficient to all ends and uses for which it was intended when a part or parts may not suffice And that Scripture which you allude unto for proofe 2 Tim. 3. v. 16 17. speakes of the whole Scripture and not of a part only the Papists would have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that text to signifie non totam sed omnem Scripturam and so would give that praise not to the whole body of the Scriptures but to particular parts of it Learned Chamier snewes the contrary how that the whole Scripture is here rather to be understood and he proves it by a threefold argument and in this great question between us and the Papists An Scriptura Christianum perfâ—…ctum reddat resolves the question to be understood of the whole canon in the Old and new Testament And so doth Dr Whitakers by which you may judge how unsufficient and short your first principle was being only a part of the Scriptures but not the whole and you may observe the fallaciousnesse of your reason propounded to argue from the whole to a part because the whole Scriptures have a compleat sufficiencie to make the Churches of God perfect therefore the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles have too Secondly I doe also adore the fullnesse of the Scriptures and God forbid that I should take from the Scriptures any thing God gives unto them or that which in the Scripture is attributed unto it but we must not give unto the Scriptures more then what God intended them for or what the Scripture affirmes of it selfe for that is to be wise above what is written and to adde unto the word and may be and hath been a ground of dangerous consequence in the Church of God and to cleare it from your own instances of exception Meere circumstances we except c. Now suppose some to speake as you doe and to be really acted also upon the same ground of the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures should yet affirme of the Scriptures without all exception of me 〈◊〉 circumstances and of the rules which the law of nature doth in common dictate and should say nothing must be practised no not in meere circumstances but by some direction from the word and as for the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate in them also the Scripture gives light how to doe them and thereupon should speake as you doe all along in this Section would not this prove inconvenient and trouble you in your Churches Nay suppose some should so extoll the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that they should hold them so perfect and sufficient for all Christians as to be a perfect rule for all civill government and that Chrstian common-wealths ought to be governed by lawes only there recorded and by no other which opinion in substance Carolostadius held That in Courts of justice Judges should not proceed according to humane laws but according to the law of Moses and so for Military practises should hold all the way of Warre must be founded upon the Scriptures and thereupon should clamour against any other art and way of Warre then what was practised there What would you reply to these men or what strength were there in such principles would not you answer them in what sense the Scriptures were perfect and how they must understand it Men have often by giving more to the most excellent creatures and things then the Scriptures allow fallen into great errors and mistakes The Papists and Ubiquitaries speake highly of the body of Christ and 't is all in the way of magnifying it and Schuvenckfeldius did boast himselfe to be the Assertor of the glory of the flesh of Christ in Heaven which other Preachers neglected or else opposed and yet all these held great errors about the body and humane nature of Christ under the notion of advancing it So in the present controversie by giving to the Scriptures that which God hath not given to them both is and may be a ground of error And therefore I referre you for the true sense of that question concerning the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to make the Churches of God perfect unto the answers our Protestant Divines give the Papists in that controversie about the perfection of the Scriptures And by the way let me commend to you and all the Ministers of the Church-way to study our Protestant writers as Whitakers Chamier c. against the Papists upon the Church and of the notes of the visible Church upon the controversie concerning the
be most willing to have recourse unto for our parts we saw not then nor doe yet see And likewise we did then suppose and doe yet that this principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto other Churches offended together with this other that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are finally offended to pronounce such a sentence of non-communion and withdrawing from them whilest impenitent ac unworthy to hold forth the Name of Christ these principles being received and generally acknowledged by the Churches of Christ to be a mutuall duty as strictly enjoyned them by Christ as any other that these would be as effectuall meanes through the blessing of Christ to awe and preserve Churches and their Elders in their duties as that other of claime to an authoritative power Ecclesiasticall to excommunicate other Churches or their Elders offending For if the one be compared with the other in a meere Ecclesiasticall notion that of Excommunication pretended hath but this more in it That it is a delivering of whole Churches and their Elders offending unto Satan for which we know no warrant in the Scriptures that Churches should have such a power over other Churches And then as for the binding obligation both of the one way and the other it can be supposed to lye but in these two things First In a warrant and injunction given by Christ to his Churches to put either the one or the other into execution And secondly That mens consciences be accordingly taken therewith so as to subject themselves whether unto the one way or the other For suppose that other principle of an authoritative power in the greater part of Churches combined to excommunicate other Churches c. to be the ordinance of God yet unlesse it doe take hold of mens consciences and be received amongst all Churches the offending Churches will steight all such excommunications as much as they may be supposed to doe our way of protestation and sentence of non-communion On the other side let this way of ours be but as strongly entertained as that which is the way and command of Christ and upon all occasions be heedfully put in execution it will awe mens consciences as much and produce the same effects And if the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld doe but assist and back the sentence of other Churches denouncing this non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet and as they would the sentence of Churches excommunicating others Churches in such cases vpon their owne particular iudgement of the cause then without all controversie this our way of Church proceeding will bee every way as effectuall as their other can be supposed to be and we are sure more brotherly and morâ—… suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with But without the Magistrates interposing their authority their way of proceeding will be as ineffectuall as ours and more liable to contempt by how much it is pretended to be more authoritative and to inflict a more dreadfull punishment which carnall spirits are seldome sensible of This for our judgements And for a reall evidence and demonstration both that this was then our judgements as likewise for an instance of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such cases our own practise and the blessing of God thereon may plead and testifie for us to all the world The manage of this transaction in briefe was this That Church which with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence requiring of the Church supposed to be offending in the Name and for the vindication of the honour of Christ and the relieving the party wronged to yeeld a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation or any other whomsoever offended of what they could give in charge against their proceedings in that deposition of their Minister and to subject themselves to an open triall and review of all those forepassed carriages that concerned that particular which they most chearfully and readily according to the forementioned principles submitted unto in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authority either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced them thereunto And accordingly the Ministers of the Church offended with other two Gentlemen of much worth wisedome and piety members thereof were sent as messengers from that Church and at the introduction and intrance into that solemne assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an impression upon our hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever any we have been present at it was openly and publikely prosessed in a speech that was the preface to that discussion to this effect that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable unto that of Christianity that a single and particular society of men professing the Name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and society within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrates above them or neighbour Churches about them So farre were our judgements from that independent liberty that is imputed to us then when we had least dependency on this Kingdom or so much as hopes ever to abide therein in peace And for the issue and successe of this agitation after there had been for many dayes as judiciary and full a charge tryall and deposition of witnesses openly afore all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where authority enjoynes it that Church which had offended did as publikely acknowledge their sinfull aberration in it restored their Minister to his place againe and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves afore God and men for their sinfull carriage in it and the party also which had been deposed did acknowledge to that Church wherein he had likewise sinned In this part of your Apologie are contained the fourth and fifth of those five forementioned heads unto which I referred all I should answer to what you say upon your third and last instance about the government and discipline in the Churches The scope of which fourth head is to answer and take off a common objection brought against your way the strength of which answer is made up of those parts and stands in these particulars First In laying downe your own principles which you hold in such a case Secondly Your practise according to those principles occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches which story you briefly relate Thirdly The successe and effectualnesse of your practise according to your principles illustrated by an instance Now for that common