Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n
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A35862
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A Dialogue between a new Catholic convert and a Protestant shewing the doctrin of transubstantiation to be as réasonable to be believ'd as the great mystery of the trinity by all good Catholicks.
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1686
(1686)
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Wing D1297; ESTC R29715
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4,548
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10
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A DIALOGUE Between a New Catholic Convert AND A PROTESTANT Shewing the DOCTRIN of TRANSUBSTANTIATION To be as Reasonable to be Believ'd as the GREAT MYSTERY OF THE TRINITY By all Good Catholicks Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A New Catholic Convert AND A PROTESTANT Concerning the Doctrins of the Trinity and Transubstantiation A. YOU cannot imagin how much I am overjoy'd to see you I have been big with Discourse these three days for want of utterance You may remember when we talk'd together last we parted in a Dispute concerning Transubstantiation and the Holy Trinity of their equal Reasonableness and Authority I must confess I was not at that time so thorowly arm'd with Reasons to shew you the Parallel but since I have given my self a little leisure to consider of it and I am persuaded I shall be able to give you satisfaction B. Sir you know I am always glad of any Opportunity to gain your good Company but especially upon so good an Occasion I 'le assure you I am not nor ever was an Enemy to Catholic Communion and if I had not too just a Cause I should never suffer my self in that which without reasonable Grounds might be call'd a wilful Schism A. I have no reason to doubt your Integrity and therefore shall not question that I shall only desire the liberty to press my old Argument That you would relie on the Authority of the Church I must confess you have often question'd the doing of it but I am sure when you shall consider there are Mysteries as well as Doctrins in the Christian Religion and when you know that Mysteries are not to be fathom'd by Natural Reason you must needs conclude that in some Cases your safest way is to trust Tradition Now certainly no one can give us so good an Account of That us the Church B. But Sir to be short What relation has this to the present Parallel of the Trinity and Transubstantiation The Authority of the Church is another Point as disputable as That A. Very much For as these two Doctrins have equal ground from Scripture Reason and Tradition so is there the same Obligation of your receiving one as well as the other And indeed I have since wonder'd at my own Profession while a Protestant to think how blind and partial I was But I must confess because we are in a Dispute it is better laying by such aggravating Circumstances and indeed I cannot but be sensible what Prejudices such Discourses always make and therefore I shall speak nothing more of that nature B. But to return to the main Point I must tell you I do not think them equally grounded on Scripture Reason or Tradition and indeed you may remember that was the old Point in dispute with us A. Well Sir to shew you your Error I shall begin with the several Particulars in their Order and so first as to the Tradition of Transubstantiation Now 't is evident That has been deliver'd with less interruption than that of the Holy Trinity That Mystery was question'd in the very Infancy of the Church nay not only so but the Arians prevail'd much against it about the beginning of the Fourth Age. On the other side Transubstantiation lay unquestion'd and quiet a long time and when it came to debate there was no such opposition as that of Arius to call in question the Authority of its Tradition the Church receiv'd it unanimously and in that sense continu'd till rash Reason attempted to fathom the unlimited Miracles and Mysteries of God B. But the Fathers are not half so express in the Doctrin of Transubstantiation as they are in the Mystery of the Holy Trinity A. That 's true and there 's very good Reason for it Transubstantiation has not been a Doctrin so long in dispute and 't is not customary for Men to argue unquestionable Truths And whereas you may think that Transubstantiation has of late receiv'd such shrewd Repulses by your Books I 'le assure you you forget how much the true Catholic Zeal destroys the Seeds of Heresies Do you think that so many Bishops not only of the Eastern but of the Western Church also could be Arians and yet suppose that that Opinion wanted as plausible a Pretence of Tradition Certainly if you consider that you cannot think to establish the Doctrin of the Trinity by Tradition more than Transubstantiation especially considering the strong Footsteps of that Sect even in the Fathers now extant I would cite you some of them but that they are not so much to my main Design and indeed my aim is Brevity B. Well Sir 't is true we cannot so well plead Tradition to what you have urg'd and especially when I call to mind that Arianism was confirm'd by a General Council But we alledge an higher ground we stand upon the Authority of the Scriptures and indeed that is the true Touchstone of all Doctrins A. 'T is true if you will follow the Catholic Church and take the Scriptures literally you may discover the Mystery of the Holy Trinity in them but if you once yield to Figurative Allusions and Interpretations the Arians will be as much too hard for you as you imagin your selves to be for the Catholic Church In short both Doctrins will be at a loss and both equally require the Authority of the Church to support them B. O no surely the Doctrin of the Holy Trinity is more express in Scriptures than so A. To satisfie you that what I say is Truth because I may represent the Parallel the clearer I will personate an Arian that Sect so often condemn'd by the Ancient Church and you shall see his Plea against the Trinity is as fair as yours against Transubstantiation And because this is the main Parallel I shall be somewhat the longer that I may give you the greater satisfaction B. I shall be very glad to hear what you can speak to the matter A. First then I say 'T is highly unreasonable to interpret that Text 1 John 5.7 That there be Three in Heaven that bear record and those Three are One as likewise John 10.30 I and my Father are One literally for if we do we not only oppose Sense and Reason but we make Construction directly against the very Scripture John 10.31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38. and John 17.21 22 23. 1 Cor. 3.8 And what can be urg'd more against us in respect of Transubstantiation B. Very right Sir that Interpretation carries a forcible Reasonableness but the Doctrin of the Trinity do's not wholly depend upon those two Proofs A. Right it do's not but I can give you further Demonstration in this Parallel A principal Ground of the Trinity is because the Son is so often call'd God in Scripture as John 1.1 2. Rom. 9.5 c. Now if we did not comply with the Catholic Church and make a
Literal Construction in this Case likewise how strangely should we be confounded by those Texts where this Godhead in Christ is declar'd to be no more than Lordship and subordinate to the Father as Heb. 1.8 9. 1 Cor. 8.4 5. 1 Cor. 15.27 28. Rev. 3.12 and John 10.35 36. B. But Sir our Saviour forgave Sins too A. That 's true but only by a deputed Authority You see when the Sons of Zebbedee petition'd him he could not grant the final Accomplishment of our Spiritual Warfare that was the Father's Prerogative Matth. 20.23 And tho' he is to be our Judge yet he knows not the time Mark 13.31 1 Tim. 6.15 B. I must confess these things a little surprise me but however I cannot think these neither the only Grounds that support that Mystery of the Trinity A. No you are in the right there is one strong Proof more the making of all things visible and invisible is attributed to the Son and that expresly John 1.3 Heb. 1.10 and particularly Col. 1.16 17 18 19. But yet for all that if we do not adhere with the Catholic Church to the Literal Interpretation we are at a loss there too For first 't is plain by the rest of the Scripture that the Son is not our only Maker as appears by our Creation attributed to the Father and then if we compare those Texts to Heb. 1.2 9 10. 1 Cor. 8.6 Eph. 3.9 Eph. 4.5 6. 1 Cor. 15.27 28. we cannot reasonably attribute more to the Son than his being God's Instrument in the Creation B. But are these the true and only Grounds of the Doctrin of that Holy Mystery A. Yes verily for that we are Baptiz'd in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost is no Argument That were as reasonable if understood of Christ and the Holy Ghost as our Spiritual Governors as under the supposal of their being Coequal with the Father 1 Cor. 10.2 1 Cor. 12.12 13. B. But surely Sir the Arians should have other Grounds to establish their Opinions besides those or else your Parallel with Transubstantiation will not be so demonstrable as you conceive Pray inform me a little further I have a mighty desire to understand a little better their Fundamental Principles A. To satisfie you I shall First They alledge Christ represented under the Law altogether as an Angel for Eminency call'd the Angel of the Presence Isa 63.9 Eccl. 5.6 Gen. 48.16 Num. 20.16 Exod. 23.20 21 22. referr'd to 1 Cor. 10.4 5 9. Further they collect him to be a Created Being from Col. 1.15 Rev. 3.14 Psal 118.23 Isa 45.8 Ecclus 1.4 9. Ecclus 24.9 Sap. 6.22 23. And they interpret that Scripture Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee by Acts 13.33 and 2 Pet. 1.17 As to the Holy Ghost they prove a vast distance between him and the Son by John 16.12 13 14 15. and John 15.26 Besides they say he is no where call'd God and urge for the probability of their Opinion Rev. 12.9 Rev. 20.8 2 Cor. 4.4 For as there is an universal tempting Evil Power so we may reasonably conclude there may be a Good Assisting Power without any necessity of his being God And further whereever in the Scriptures there is made any mention of the Three Persons there is always declar'd an express Gradation as 1 Cor. 12.3 4 5. 2 Cor. 13.14 Gift and Communion from the Fellowship of the Holy Ghost Grace and Administration from the Lordship and Kingship of Christ and Love and Operation from the Father the Supreme God the Original Fountain according to Eph. 4.4 5 6. B. I must confess Sir these Opinions seem to make it necessary for us in that Doctrin too to trust to the Authority of the Catholic Church and I shall take time to consider a little upon them But pray Sir what say you to the Reasons of the two Doctrins A. Really Sir I must tell you I think that Parallel much the easiest 'T is strange new Arithmetic to a Man to tell him Three distinct Persons are one and the same Individual Nature and then to call such a one the most Pure and Simple Being and that especially when they are declar'd to have various Intellectual Powers as appears by John 16.12 13 14 15. and Mark 13.31 1 Tim. 6.15 Acts 1.7 For my part I cannot tell well how the Prejudice of Education could possibly digest a thing so unreasonable were it not a Divine Mystery I am sure to my Carnal Reason there may be as well Three hundred Persons in the Godhead as Three and I know not what can be said of Transubstantiation that is seemingly more absurd than That B. I must confess Sir I have had strange consus'd and surprizing Thoughts of it my self but I alays apprehended the Christian Church a sufficient Guide A. If you did Sir pray consider who that Catholic Mother is you so obey'd and as you have receiv'd the Trinity so receive a Doctrin equally as Reasonable and deliver'd by Her Transubstantiation I know the Ingenuousness of your Temper and you promis'd me at first not to be a wilful Schismatic and therefore I have hopes my Reasons and your Consideration will be sufficient to reduce you to Catholic Communion B. Sir I shall consider of it but as yet you only talk'd to me at large I shall desire one Favour of you before we part Pray state the Parallel a little shorter I shall the better remember it A. Well Sir I shall First The Tradition of one Doctrin cannot be stronger than another where both have been at least equally question'd Secondly 'T is as reasonable to take This is my Body literally as it is to take these Texts I and my Father are one god over all blessed for ever and By him all things were made without reference to other Scriptures and a Figurative Interpretation And lastly I think to Human Reason 't is as equally unreasonable and as seemingly repugnant to say One is Three as it is to say a Body is not what it appears B. Very well I shall desire no more of you now I 'le only take a little Time to consider and then you shall know my Mind more freely A. Farewell and God give you his Holy Spirit to instruct you FINIS