put to silence the ignorance of foolish men The old Puritans of England had fully learned this Lesson of obedience to all authority both civill and Ecclesiasticall being commanded to obey them that have the rule over them and to submit themselves unto them as who watched over their soules as those that were to give account c. Hebr. 13. 17. and this doctrine they did inculcate incessantly unto the people and for the government Ecclesiâ—sticall the old Puritans of England did beleeve it was that Presbyterian Government that is now contended for by all the Presbyterians as is to be seene at large in the learned Workes of that ever to be honoured Master Cartwright in his disputations against Bishop Whitgift who for his zeale to that government was called the Father of all the Puritans They also did beleeve that all government both Ecclesiasticall and Civill was radically originally and inherently in God and Christ and from them derived to the Kings Princes Nobles and Iudges of the earth and to all the true Ministers of the Gospel in his Church who all have their authorities immediatly from God and by whom alone according to the Holy Scripture they rule and command they never durst be so blasphemous as to rob God of his honour and glory and the Kings Nobles and Judges of the earth and the Ministers of the Gospel of their severall powers saying that Kings and Nobles and the Rulers of the earth and Ministers in Christs Church and Kingdome were the creatures of the people and that the people were the soveraigne Lord both of Kings Nobles Parliaments and Ministers and that the authority which they exercised was inherently in the people and that they might give it and deposite it into whose hands they pleased and where they lusted and call any of their Rulers and Governours to an account and appoint them their times and seasons when they should meet and tell them what they should doe and displace them at pleasure as they shall thinke fit all these Lessons of Blasphemy the old Puritans of England were ignorant of which learned nescience of theirs is commendable They had beene better taught from all the Holy Prophets and blessed Apostles who both by precept and example have instructed the people of God in all ages to yeeld obedience to those that were Governors over them as wee may reade through all the Holy Scripture of the Old Testament where we find what reverence even Father Abraham the Father of the faithfull shewed unto all Kings under whose government he lived in the time of his Peregrination and where wee reade also what reverence Ioseph yeelded unto Pharaoh and how Iacob his Father demeaned himselfe with all the Patriarks to Pharaoh and those that were over them in authority and how Ieremiah behaved himselfe to the King in his time and how the three Children and Daniel carried themselves to the very Kings of Babylon though heathen Princes never speaking unto them nor comming before them but with all reverence deprecating all evil from them upon all occasions praying for their welfare yea Christs example ought to be for our imitation who opened not his mouth the same we find in all the Apostles whensoever they were brought before authority with what sweetnesse of language they carried themselves towards them and what reverent expressions they used to all in authority though never so wicked when they were brought before them yea if they had fayled but in the least expression how soone they would recall themselves for when Ananias commanded them that stood by Paul to smite him on the mouth Act. 23. and he in passion beholding his injustice said God shall smite thee thou painted wall when it was replyed unto him revilest thou Gods High Priest Paul stands not upon the justification of his words but meekly answers I wist not brethren that it was the High Priest for it is written saith he Exod. 22. 27. thou shalt not speake evill of the Ruler of the people Paul had learned his Lesson well and soone recollected himselfe acknowledging his error that he had deviated from the rule which is there recorded for all mens imitation in after times to the end of the world to square their lives and obedience by they are not by that to speake evill of the Ruler of the people whether he be Ecclesiasticall or civill and if they may not speake evill then they may not resist their authority and unihilate their power which is the extremity of evill and rebellion yea all men are forbid so much as in their Bed-chamber to curse or think evil of those in authority how much more are those then blame worthy that not only think evill but speak evill yea write and publish evill against Kings Nobles and Judges of all sorts both civill and Ecclesiasticall and divest them all of their authority speaking evill of Dignities and assuming the Soveraignty of them all to themselves that from God himâ—elfe calling themselves the soveraigne Lords of them all giving them Lawes to rule by and denying them their due reverence in the face of the Kingdome as lately some of the Independents and Sectariâ—s have done both to the House of Lords and Commons Surely such mens damnation sleeps not whatsoever they pretend and how highly soever they carry themselves and by whom soever in these their evill doings they are supported backed and seconded For Saint Peter in his second Epistle that knew very well the mind of God concerning such men in the second chapter saith this of all the wicked verse 9 10 11 12. c. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the Godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished but chiefly them that walke after the flesh and despise Dominion and Government whom hee cals presumptuous selfe-willed that are not afraid to speake evill of Dignities which the very Angels saith hee though they were greater in power and might would not doe against the Devill being in authority though it were usurped but those as naturall brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed speake evill of things they understand not and shall utterly perish in their owne corruption and shall receive the reward of unrighteousnesse Here is a fearfull Doome pronounced against all such people as spake evill of Dignities and Saint Iude likewise in his Epistle seconds Saint Peter verse 8 9 10 c. calling such men as despise authority and speake evill of Dignities filthy Dreamers and compares them to brute beasts and unto Cain and unto Balaam and unto Corah Dathan and Abiram pronouncing woe unto them all and proclaiming them spots and deformities in all companies and societies calling them moreover clouds without water creatures empty of all goodnesse trees whose fruit withereth yea without fruit twice dead here in this world in their sinnes and trespasses and eternally in the world to come and as if hee could never have spake enough of such men as
and pleasure of God in them and accordingly determined that difference and question by the written Word and from thence commanded that the Decrees of that Councell should be observed in all Churches After the very same manner in this their so doing the church of Ierusalem is a paterne to all other churches upon the like occasions it any difference of opinion rise amongst the churches or if any new heresies spring up tending to the subversion of the soules of the people how holy and godly so ever they seeme to be that broach them and what pretence so ever they make that they have them from divine Authority I say upon the like occasions in Imitation of the Apostles and Elders in the church at Ierusalem Kings and Princes and Christian Magistrates and those that are in Authority may call a councell or Synod of Divines together and as the Apostles and Elders there debated things by dispute and reason and by searching the holy Scripture found out the truth and determined the question and sent their Decrees which were binding to all other churches so I affirme also in this their so doing that church is a paterne of imitation to all churches in all Nations and Countries and Christian churches in them that Ministers out of severall Presbyteries in a representative body may meet together by the appointment of their Magistrates and dispute those questions by reasoning and discourse and finding by searching of the Word of God what his good will and pleasure is may determine the question accordingly and give out their decrees grouned upon the written Word with authority to be observed by all those churches under their severall Jurisdictions and as the people then did patiently wait till the determining of that difference without making of any rents schismes or separations one from another and did then yeild obedience to those decrees without any reluctation but observed them all willingly after the debate so ought all people in imitation of them and following their example with patience to wait without making any rents and divisions till things are fully discussed and determined in any such Synode or councell and then willingly and cheerfully submit themselves and yeild obedience to them and in their so doing they have the church at Ierusalem for a paterne and the Apostles and Elders of that church and the other churches for an example of imitation so long as they injoyne nothing contrary to the Word of God For this way of governing the church by Synods and Councells upon differing and dissenting opinions betweene church and church and upon occasion of any new Heresies sprung up in Christian Countries or any old ones revived as it hath its paterne from the church at Ierusalem and that of Antioch which is left for our imitation that all churches upon the like occasion should follow it So this way of ruling is grounded upon most excellent reason as most agreeable both to the Law of God and nature and the practise of all Nations and Kingdomes of which we have many presidents in the holy Scriptures besides this councell at Ierusalem and some others For as all Nations and Kingdoms have been ever governed by generall councells and have ever had their severall appeales from inferior Courts and councells to Superior upon either publicke grievances or upon any differences betweene Province and Province and County and County or betweene Corporation and Corporation or City and City or upon any Pressures or oppressions or impeachments or incroachments of each on the others liberties or through injustice or injuries done to each of them from some that are in power and authority So the church of Iesus Christ which is his Kingdome is inferior to no other Kingdome upon earth but in that also the severall Corporations that are under it which are so many Presbyterian churches have in like manner the liberty of their appeales upon any of the aforesaid or above named occasions And although they all injoy equall priviledges amongst themselves as the severall Provinces Counties Corporations and Cities in any kingdome do so as they cannot severally and by themselves considered give a Law each to other yet as in a generall councell in Kingdomes and Common-wealths when the Knights and Barons and Burgesses of each of them are all met together in their representative bodies in a Parliament or Diet may being so Assembled together not only redresse any abuses and punish Delâ—nquents but also for the better government of those severall Doâ—inâ—ons for the future give Lawes to each Province County City and Corporation yea and unto the whole Country And enact penall Statutes both to them and to the whole Countries under them according to the fundamentall Lawes of the Kingdomes and Countries In the same manner it is in the visible Catholicke church which is Christs Kingdome although in it the severall Presbyteries and churches considered by themselves and as having equall Authority amongst themselves cannot give Lawes to each other severally and by themselves considered as the Church of Corinth and that of Antioch and Ephesus and the other could not prescribe to each other a rule or Law to walke by with Authority but only in an examplary way by well doing yet all these severall churches ioyning together in a generall councell as they did at Jerusalem Acts the 15. and having from each of them deligated and sent their Presbyters and Ministers as so many Burgesses of their severall cities and Corporations and they being all met together upon any grievances and having by debating of the matters and differences in question by dispute and by disquisition found What is the good will of God and what is his pleasure in his good Word and in the holy Scriptures which are the Fundamentall Lawes of his Kingdom may in any Christian councell so called and ordering their businesse as the councell and Synod of Ierusalem did give out their Decrees and those binding ones to all those severall churches that are under their jurisdictions and all these severall churches ought to yeild obedience to them And in this their so doing they have the church of Ierusalem and the other churches a president and a paterne For I say in all these respects the church at Ierusalem is a paterne to all other churches And as in the church at Ierusalem Corinth Philippi Samaria Ephesus c. the Apostles Evangelists and the Presbyters in every one of those churches had the charge of each of those churches committed to them in common as is manifest from all the places above quoted and through the holy Scripture and as they fed them all and governed them all in common so in that also both the church at Ierusalem and all the other churches according to my brother Burtons doctrine who saith they must all come in for the making up of a compleat platforme I say as all the Presbyters and Ministers fed those severall churches in common so they are a paterne to all churches in all
disposing of the very charity and bounty of the brethren to all the necessitated Disciples within their jurisdictions and who gave directions to the Deacons how they should be distributed to the best emolument and benefit of the poor and according to the intention of these benefactors which as it is an act of Government and that a principall one so of necessity the Presbyters must then meet together that by their joynt and common consent and councell all things may be rightly ordered But in the chap. 15. v. 2. 4. 6. 22. the Presbyters of Ierusalem by name are expressed and in chap. 16. and in Act. 21. v. 17. 18. in these words Then they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go up to Ierusalem unto the Apostles and Presbyters about this question and they were received of the Church and of the Apostles and Presbyters to whom they declared all things that God had done with them and how that there rose up certain of the Sect of the Pharisees which beleeved saying that it was needfull to circumcise them and to command them to keepe the law of Moses and the Apostles and Presbyters came together to consider of this matter c. ver 22. Then pleased it the Apostles and Presbyters with the whole Church c. and chap. 16. v. 4. And as they went through the Cities they delivered them the Decrees to keepe that were ordained of the Apostles and Presbyters which were at Ierusalem c. and chap. 21. v. 17 18. And when we were come to Ierusalem the Brethren received us gladly and the day following Paul went in with us unto Iames and all the Presbyters were present and v. 25. As touching the Gentiles which beleeve we have written and concluded say the Presbyters that they observe no such thing Out of all which places before I forme my arguments to prove That the Church of Ierusalem consisting of many Congregations and Assemblies was governed by a Presbytery that is by the joynt consent and common Councel of the Apostles and Presbyters which made but a grand Presbytery I shall desire all men to consider that howsoever the Apostles in the places above specified are differenced by that title from the Presbyters yet in all acts of government performed by them in the Church of Jerusalem they were for the substance of them ordinary acts such as Presbyters dayly performe and therefore answerably the Apostles themselves are in them to be considered as Presbyters that is men governing in an ordinary way as such as had received the keyes which is the power of jurisdiction and therefore were in their ordinary imployment though at other times in their severall ministries and going from Nation to Nation to preach as Christs extraordinary Ambassadours 2 Cor. 5. they used superlative authority which God had invested them with and graciously bestowed upon them for the benefit of the Church and the good of his people and I am induced so to beleeve because the Apostles in holy Scripture are called Presbyters that is the ordinary Governours and Magistrates of the Church though the more principall and primary ones and therefore did act as Presbyters in ordinary acts of Church Government and for a pattern to all Churches in like administration Neither may any suppose for all this that the Apostles did fall lower in their power in that they acted as Presbyters for our brethren do acknowledge that at Ierusalem the Apostles acted as Presbyters of a particular Congregation Now then if they did not fall lower in their power by acting as Presbyters in a particular Congregation what reason will dictate to any man that they should fall lower in their power by acting as Presbyters in a joynt Presbytery The truth is to govern and to rule the Church was the ordinary imployment of the Apostles and therefore they are stiled Presbyters which is to say the Rulers Councellours Magistrates and Governours of the Church neither for all this did their Presbyterships exclude their Apostleships nor did their acting as Presbyters deprive them of their Apostolique power nor of that Apostolique spirit which guided them even in these things wherein they acted as Presbyters for although under one notion we looke upon the Apostles as extraordinary men yet under another as in all those affaires of publique concernment and in matter of government and for that end the assembling of themselves together we do not consider them as Apostles for therein they did not act as Apostles with a transcendent and infallible authority and in an extraordinary way but as Presbyters and ordinary Governours and Councellours and in such a way as makes their meetings and actions a patterne and president to succeeding ages and of the Presbyters congregating of themselves together for common acts of Government whether in a Presbyterian or Synodicall way And as it is in civill affaires and in the government of Kingdomes and States so it was then in the Church of God in a Kingdome some of the Counsellors are of the more secret admission and are generally called Cabbinet Counsellors and are counted of as extraordinary men and others of the generall ordinary Councel yet when all these sit in a Common Councell together to consult about matters of State and publique concernment they â—it then together as ordinary Councellours and every one of them has as much authority and liberty to debate things by reason and dispute in way of consultation and to give his vote about any thing as well as any of the most extraordinary Councellors and this hath been the practise of all ages We read that Hushy when he was by Absalon called into counsell had his voice and gave his vote as well as Achitophel the Oracle of that time and as in the Common-Councels and Parliaments of Kingdomes whatsoever honour dignity or extraordinary imployments any of them were taken up in before their session and meeting or whatsoever dignity or titles of honour they have extraordinarily above others and take their places accordingly before they come together into the Parliament yet they all sitting as Judges and Peeres in the Kingdome the meanest Lord in the Kingdome hath as much authority there as the greatest and so in the House of Commons as they are Judges and chosen by the people for that purpose have all of them even the meanest as much voice and authority in way of consultation as the greatest And so likewise in the Synod or Assembly now of Divines the meanest Presbyter hath as much voice and liberty in way of debate and voting as the greatest Prelate there And even so it was in the Church of Jerusalem when the Apostles those extraordinary gifted men and the Ordinary Presbyters met together in counsel they all acted there as counsellors and ordinary presbyters and therefore in all those particular actions of the Apostles wee have mention of in their severall meetings whether wee consider them by themselves alone and not joyned with the
as hee was President in that Councell in the 15. of the Acts and it stands with very good reason for many yeares after he continued still the prime man in authority there amongst the Presbyters and knew very well the condition of all the Beleevers there and what numbers and multitudes of Disciples there were Inhabitants in that Church all which sufficiently demonstrateth that hee had his residence continually or for the most part in Ierusalem so that Paul comming thither to the Feast as it is related Acts the 21 chapter was informed by him not onely that there were many ten thousands of Beleevers in that Church but what those Disciples had heard concerning his preaching which sheweth not onely that Saint Iames had his aboad in that Citie but that those beleevers likewise were dwellers and inhabitants there and that now hee had very good acquaintance and familiarity with them yea which is more at that very time that Paul and Barnabas were sent to Jerusalem with those almes Peter and Iames were then in that Citie if not other of the Apostles also as the twelfe chapter of the Acts abundantly sheweth and without doubt they all joyned with the Presbyters and in a Common-councell ordered how the Alms should be disposed of by the Deacons to the necessity of the Saints yea it doth most necessarily follow what so ever Mr. Knollys and those of his Fraternity shall be able to say to the contrary for the Scripture recordeth that the reliefe was sent to the Presbyters through Iudaea Ierusalem was the Metropolis citie in Iudaea and in the 12. chapter v. 25. it is related that Barnabas Paul returned from Jerusalem whither they had carried the almes so that many of the Apostles being at that time in Ierusalem and the princiall and chiefe Presbyters in that Church amongst the other Presbyters it may not bee credited that they I say being the prime Magistrates and Governours did sit still and leave the rule ordering and government of that Church to other of their fellow Presbyters and them of inferiour ranke but they also acted their parts in the government at that time as well as at others and therefore I say when the disposing of the treasury of the Church or State is an Act of soveraigne power and belongs only to those that are in authority in either and when all the Apostles and Presbyters governed that Church by a Common-councell and joynt consent and when the almes were sent unto all it necessarily followeth notwithstanding all Master Knollys his garrulity that my Argument out of that Scripture will ever stand good to prove that the sending of the reliefe to the Elders makes good these two things the first that the Presbyters were the onely men in authority there and secondly that the Apostles and Presbyters of that Church governed and ruled it by a Common-councell and Presbytery yea Master Knollys his owne words confirmes mee in my opinion who saith it is not denyed by the brethren that the Presbyters in all Churches were the men in the government of the Churches in which they are Elders so that all businesses of publicke concernment were to bee transacted and managed by the common consent and agreement of them all and not by the determination of any one particular Presbyter in either of those Churches much lesse by any other persons or people in them but the Presbyters And this shall suffice to have spake concerning the confirmation of my first Argument grounded upon that Scripture that the reliefe and almes were sent unto the Presbyters of Ierusalem And now I come to what he hath to say against my second argument by which I proved my third proposition which is this as he himselfe set it down in the 12. Page of his book They that in the holy Scripture are called Presbyters and acted and ordered things in a joynt body and common Councell with the Presbyters and exercised that ordinary power committed to them in the 18. of Matthew they acted as Presbyters But the Apostles in governing the Church of Ierusalem consisting of many Congregations and Assemblies acted and ordered things in a joynt body and common Councell with the Presbytery of that Church as Presbyters Ergo the church of Ierusalem was Presbyterially governed and by a common Councell of Presbyters The Major and Minor of this Syllogisme being proved saith the Doctor the conclusion will necessarily insue Thus Master Knollys relates this Argument wholly passing by all the rest And to this argument he first thus replies I know not saith he that the brethren ever deny ed that the Church of Ierusalem was presbyterianly governed So that he assenteth unto the conclusion which is all I contended for by that argument So that by this it followeth that the people had no hand in the government for they are not Presbyters by office And yet such is his ambition to be thought some body in the art of disputation that he quarrels the forme of my Syllogisme and takes upon him to shew me how I should have framed it aright but all those that know indeed what really belongs to learning will easily perceive the man doth but babble and if I should spend time in trifling with him about forms moodes and figures in Syllogisms who knows no more in Logick then the horse he preaches on I might be thought as vain as himselfe therefore intreating him hereafter to learn his Grand-dame to suck and not mee to make Syllogisms passing by all those his grolleries I will set down what he hath farther to reply to this argument in the 13. page and then answer to that and after I have done with him I will come to I. S. that learned Gentleman and profound Clerk Master Knollys to this argument thus farther answereth Though the Apostles saith he were called Presbyters in the Scripture yet it followeth not that they acted as Presbyters but as Apostles Act. 15. And they cannot therein be a pattern and president for Presbyters First because the Apostles had the care and charge of and over all Churches 2 Cor. 11. 28. But the Presbyters had the care and oversight of some one Church onely as Ephesus Act. 20. 28. or Philippi Phil. 1. 1. and this the Doctor often inserts in his book That all the Churches we read of in the New Testament though they were presbyterially governed were Dependent upon their severall Presbyters page 12. And secondly because this would make the Presbyters Independent indeed for so the Apostles were in the government of all the Churches the Presbyters of Jerusalem of Ephesus and of all the Churches were Dependent upon the Apostles and the Apostles only Dependent on Christ by whose holy spirit they were alwaies guided in the government of their churches and therefore they said Acts 15. 28. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and us And though the Doctor say the Presbyters might say so as well as the Apostles because the Elders and Presbyters are mentioned there The
he and his complices have to say to my five other quaeries But I will set downe my Brother Burtons oowne words which are these p. 19. seeing saith he wee have all bound our selves by solemne Covenant to reforme our selves and those under our charge according to the word of God yea and every one to goe before others in this Reformation tell me now Brother saith hee if it were not a matter worth the while for our Reverend and Learned Assembly seriously to take into debate whether the general tying up of men to waite necessarily on the Synod for its finall resolution about Church government be not an usurpation upon our Christian Liberty and a Diminution at least of the authority and sufficiency of Scripture and so consequently be not a trenching upon a fundamentall heresie as also an inhibition restrayning every man in his place Ministers Masters c. from setting upon the work of Reformation and so necessitating a violation of our Covenant or a dangerous retarding of the worke thus my Brother Burton these and such like are the subtill baits and cunning snares wherewith he catches and draws into his Net many ignorant yet well meaning tender hearted Christians whereas Reformation and Discipline in the Church in the full power thereof had beene settled long since had not Independents studied ways to molest our peace in opposing the setling of Church government according to the word of God for this they have and doe labour to withstand with all their might and great subtilty by which meanes my Brother Burton and those of his faction increase and strengthen their party and set up their new wayes and give an in-let to old and new heresies without interruption but this practice of Independents is offencive to God and man and absolutely contrary to that Covenant which we have all entered into For when we covenanted for Reformation it was to be understood that wee were thereby ingaged to humble our selves before the great God and with fasting and prayer earnestly to seeke to the Lord who is wise in heart and mighty in strength Job 9.4 able to over-power the hearts wils and affections of Principalities and powers yea of the greatest Kings and Monarchs in the world who by his wisedome can advise counsell and direct and by his mighty and omnipotent working and by the operation of his spirit can inforce and compell them to obey his Royall commands and to set up an universall Reformation of Religion and Discipline in his Church in its full power according to his sacred word and divine will And whereas wee have all bound our selves by solemne Covenant to reforme our selves and all under our charge according to the word of God this strictly binds every one of us in speciall to Reforme our selves and those under our charge by forsaking every sinfull way and evill practice that wee or they have formerly walked delighted and continued in whereby wee have provoked the Holy one of Israel unto anger Isaiah 1. 4. and hereby Magistrates Ministers Parents Masters of Families are bound to take care that all under their charge frequent the Ordinances of God and exercise all holy duties with them and that they doâ— not suffer any to wander and straggle abroad into dangerous ways and by-paths and errors and heresies and blasphemous tenents for if they let them walke where they please it shewes but little care taken to reforme and keepe them in the right way which leads to happinesse and it is a violation of this part of our Covenant where wee have bound our selves every one to reforme one and all under our charge yea and wee are bound every one to labour to goe before others in this Reformation But our Covenant doth not therefore bind every man and woman to take upon them to set up and follow what Government seemes good in their own eyes or rather is most suitable to their boundlesse spirits our Covenant gives no such Liberty to any for were this the sense of the Covâ—nant when it binds every particular man to indeavour to goe before others in Reformation this were to covenant against sinne Formality and Tyrannie and to vow for unlawfull Libertisâ—e Prophanesse and an Anarchie which would bring inevitable confusion in Church and State for under the pretence of going before others in Reformation Heresies unwarrantable corrupt and dangerous new opinions would then be broached maintained and disperst abroad without either the feare of God or man as at this day wee are taught by sad experience and all these deadly and destroying Heresies would be disseminated and divulged under pretext that their ways are agreeable to Gods word and that they come neerer and walke more close to the rule of Christ then others doe although their feet tread not in the steps of his commandements but walke in wayes contrary to his holy will and therefore such disorderly walkings as these are a Deformation of Religion not a Reformation according to Gods word and our solemne Covenant which wee have all entered into But my Brother Burton as I related before puts it to the question Whether or no it be not an usurpation upon our Christian Liberty and a diminution at least of the authoritie and sufficiency of Scripture c. for a man to be tyed to waite on the Synod for its finall resolution for Church government It may be answered for Magistrates to be zealous for Reformation and to settle that Church government which God hath appointed is so farre from being any usurpation upon our Christian Liberty or a diminution of the authority and sufficiencie of the holy Scripture as they have warrant for it out of holy writ and the practice of the most godly Princes is there recorded for their example and incouragement to go on undauntedly in the work 2 Chron. 15. 8. to the 16. v. 2 Chro. 17. the 6 7 8 9. 2 Chron. 29. c. 2 Chron. 30. c. 2 Chron. 31. 31. c. 2 Chron. 34. c. 2 King 23. to the 24. ver Ezr. 9. Neh. 9. so that Gods word be the absolute rule to direct them in this their undertaking and the true intent of our Covenant is that we will all be ayding and assisting to the utmost of our power to further them in their holy indeavours Now wherein for the effecting of such a Reformation that may in all things bee grounded on Scripture can a better course bee taken then authority hath appointed namely by calling together an Assembly of Ministers men skilfull in the originall tongues learned in all other sciences and approved to be godly pious zealous orthodox men and mighty in the Scripture and which is more to be selfe-denying men who being met together have humbled themselves by fasting and prayer before the Lord of Heaven and earth imploring his divine assistance illumination and direction out of his holy word for the Reforming and setling the Government of the Church according to his sacred will and for these
godly conscionable and learned Ministers as they did thus meet together so they have ever since laboriously searched the Scriptures to find out what is the good will and pleasure of our God herein and they have not concluded of any thing but what they bring their warrant for out of Gods word being taken from the example practice precepts and commands of the holy Apostles and the Churches in their times for that government which they stand for and humbly desire to have setled aud established in the Church of God Now can it be justly said that if men waite patiently while these truths are discussing which have beene the longer by reason that daily opposition and many cavilling argumentations that have beene brought against that truth which they hold forth by some irresolvable spirits that this is to tye them to waite on the Synods finall Resolution no surely for to waite on the meere resolves of men the wisedome of the State would never permit to tye any man but to waite on Gods word and those warrantable and unquestionable truths which by the Synod are clearely demonstrated out of the same concerning Church-government and this is a truth cannot be denyed or gain-said that it is better and the safest way for men to waite see and seriously consider of what God shall out of his word reveale to his faithfull servants the Ministers who are met together in his name and feare for this very end and purpose diligently to seeke and find out his good will and pleasure in this particular then for men to tye themselves to the private opinions and wayes policie of some particular men who under the pretence of going before others in Reformation set up what government they please and cause people to enter into a Covenant of their owne framing for all which when matters are rightly stated and tryed by the ballance of the Sanctuary there is not any colour nor warrant out of Gods word nor in the solemn Covenant which we have taken therefore in the judgement of all who are humble and low in their owne sight and who sincerely aym at the glory of God Zions peace it is not thought any usurpation upon our Christian Liberty nor diminution of the Scriptures authority nor retarding of the worke to waite and see what God shall make cleare to the Synod out of his word upon their debates consultations and answers to all opposing parties for this is a way to make truth perspicuous and as wee are exhorted to try all things and hold fast that which is good so those that are godly and will not be deluded with shewes they bring all these results to the Touch-stone of Gods word and if they find that they indure the teste then they dare not but receive and hold them fast being the words of sound and wholesome truths so that the finall Resolution for Church government which men waite for is not from the Synod further then they hold it forth and make it manifest to be agreeable to the Scriptures and to that rule all men are bound to submit and we ought to waite and see what the Synod doth conclude of out of Gods word as the Church of Antioch and other Churches did Acts 15. where we have a President for our imitation set before our eyes in the which wee may observe that the Christians of those times were as well instructed as any in the new gathered Churches or any of the dissenting brethren whether assembled or not assembled and yet all those holy and godly Christians thought it no usurpation upon their Christian Liberty nor no diminution of the authority and sufficiency of the Scripture nor no dangerous retarding of the worke of reformation and of setling their Church-government to waite upon the Synod at Ierusalem for their finall resolution about that question there in debate and which had caused so great a schisme betweene the Jewes and Gentiles I say these glorious and truly precious Christians had none of these panicke feares the Ill-dependents of our times are troubled with but willingly and cheerfully waited upon that Synod and Councell without making in the meane time any rents and separations from their Christian brethren and this their doing was left for our example to teach us to doe the like and not under a semblance and shew of going before others in â—reformation to make rents and schismes in the Church and State and to gather new Churches and separate Assemblies and this shall suffice in way of answer to have spake to all my Brother Burtons cavils against my first Querie and for answer likewise to the question propounded by him to mee and now I come to see what my Brother Burton hath to say concerning my second Querie viz. touching the requisites in those that are to bee made Members the Reader may looke backe to the querie by which hee will the better discerne the Grollery of the man As for I. S. hee answers to that querie although it be the practice of many of new gathered Churches that hee knowes none such who hold it so so that it seemes I. S. is but a Catachumenos in the Independents doctrine whiles hee undertakes to instruct others in it But my Brother Burton he is well verst in all the Ill-dependent discipline both for the Theory and Practick who answers thus to my second querie page 14. I pray saith he what harme is in that that none are to bee allowed of but by the consent and approbation of all the congregation for answer I say very much harme in regard they impose a Law upon their brethren that Christ the King of his Church never laid upon his people by which they deprive them of that Christian Liberty Christ hath purchased for them and in the which they have a command to stand fast Gal. 5. 1. which is not to bee intangled with any yoake of humane bondage But it will not be amisse to heare his reasons They saith he who are to walke together should first be agreed together as Amos the 3. 3. an two walke together except they be agreed If therefore any one of the Congregation can object any thing as a just cause of non-admittance of a Member hee ought to shew it not onely for his owne peace but the peace of the Church c. A second reason is this to know those well saith hee that are to be admitted abundans cautela non nocet in things weighty we cannot be too wary nor do we so much look at circumstances in conversion as the substance This is all my brother Burton hath to answer to my second quâ—ry which he calleth a caption But for answer I expected that he should have produced some command or example out of Gods Word for the ratifying of this their practice in their new congregations for that is ever to be the rule of Christians obedience and where our King Christ Jesus hath ceased to command there all his servants must cease
truly preached the Sacraments rightly administred and the name of God rightly called upon and all those essentiall marks made that Church a true formed Church after the New-Testament forme if the Scripture and my Brother Burton may be beleeved and therefore I take notice of this as a speciall error in my Brother Burton that hee makes excommunication the Gospel forme of a true Church for which his tenent I beleeve he will find some moderate check or other from some of his brethren of the congregational way who hold that their particular explicite Covenant is the forme of the Church and this shall serve for answer to that second Grollery of my Brother Burton His third Grollery is that hee saith that the power of admitting and casting out Members was not in the Apostles and Ministers alone but in the Churches which is a notable error in my Brother Burton and Contrary unto many places of the holy Scripture for God gave the Apostles and Ministers of the Gospel only the Keyes Matth. 16. Matt. 18. and Matth. 28. and they that had the Keyes and were the Stewards of Gods family could onely open and shut the doores to whom they pleased without the people and we see that the Apostles onely in the second of the Acts without the people received into the Church those three thousand first Converts yea and received Paul into their Fellow-ship contrary unto the Disciples and peoples mind Acts 9. and wee know that Paul by his owne power did excommunicate and deliver to Satan Hymeneus and Alexander and others 1 Tim. chap. 2. verse 1. and we learne in the second and third of the Revelation that the Lord writing unto the Churches sends his Epistles to the Angels as the chiefe officers and blames them for neglecting their duty in not casting out those wicked ones that were amongst them by all which testimonies and many more that might be produced it is sufficiently evident that the Ministers only ought by themselves to manage the government of the Church and that it is their peculiar office and the place of the people to yeeld obedience to what they do and even out of 2. Cor. 2. the same may be gathered where it is said he was excommunicate by many not al. And therefore it is a marvellous great error in my brother Burton to conclude because Paul writ to the church of Corinth for the casting out of the incestuous person therefore the power and authority lay in the peoples hands and not in the Apostles and Ministers alone But these are the unsound conclusions that those of the congregationall way gather too too often from the holy Scripture for the ingratiating of themselves amongst the people whom they pretend much to honour in telling them that they have a power and interest in the government as well as the Ministers have and that the Presbyterians challenge this to themselves joly it is onely to inslave the people and to Lord it over them and that worse then the Prelates and for no other end I am most assured did my Brother Burton bring in this cavill in opposition to my Argument which not withstanding stands firme to prove that John the Baptist did by himselfe and without the people execute his Commission and receive Members into the Church and that from his and the blessed Apostles examples all other Ministers may take this example and doe the same and that by Gods owne appointment as wee shall see more fully in the following Discourse and this shall suffice to have spake to this cavill also of my Brother Burton and all the Grolleries of the same concerning the Baptist and his gathering of churches But now to goe on after the Resurrection and Ascention of Christ and that the Apostles had received the gifts of the Holy Ghost and at their first entring upon their Ministry had preached unto the people and that the people were pricked in their hearts when they heard them it is said that the people addressed themselves onely unto Peter and the other Apostles saying Men and Brethren what shall wee do Then Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Iesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gifts of the holy Ghost c. Act. 2. 23 24 then they that gladly received the word were baptized and the same day were added unto them about three thousand soules Here wee may observe these two things The first that the Apostles by themselves alone without the multitude or church admitted the people into the society and company of beleevers Secondly that in the execution of their commission they did nothing but according to their warrant and according to their injunction that was given unto them by Christ they propounded no other condition or termes for the making all and every one of them Members of the Church but Baptisme and Repentance the which when the people had accepted of they were forthwith admitted and that upon their own word and testimony without any more adoe or further inquiry concerning the soundnesse of their repentance without any witnesse from others of their conversation and without the voyce allowance or approbation of the people or the multitude of beleevers in Jerusalem much lesse of the whole Church who were never joyned with the Apostles in their Commission or consulted with by them whether they should be admitted or no into the Fellowship of the faithfull or demanded or asked by the people whether it were not fit that they should take some time of further consideration that they might walke with them to the end that they might behold their conversation and by their owne experience might further be confirmed that their conversion was sound and well Neither did any call for at their hands that they should make a publicke confession of their faith to the Church and give in their evidences to the Congregation that they were converted really or that they should take a private covenant or enter into the Church by way of a peculiar covenant nothing of all this specified But it is onely related that the people upon their being pricked in their hearts applyed themselves unto the Apostles and that the Apostles by their owne authority and that power that was delegated unto them without reference to the Church or people admitted them into the number of Beleevers I expected in this place to have met with Generall Burton or cavalier Hanserdo Saint George his chaplaine knowing what daring men they are that they would have fought me here especially and that they would have indeavoured with all their forces to have beate mee from this ground a place so advantagious that they that are Masters of it may bid defiance to the powerfullest and potentest enemies of the truth and indeed I did so much the more expect their incounter here and that they would have given mee Battell and that wee should have had a pitcht field for it because they
hopes are frustrate now they labor for a toleration of all Religions which both God noble Nehemiah and Ioshua all the Holy Prophets Christ and his blessed Apostles continually were displeased with and denounced judgements against all which holy Lawes now they desire may be dispensed with to gratifie them with a ful toleration of all religions or at least with an indulgence for their new-fangled Independency which by all their indeavours they make way apace for and howsoever it was thought a thing worthy of death in Strafford and the Prelate of Canterbury that they but laboured to alter the Lawes of the Land and the Religion that was established by publick authority and for the which they both suffered the very Sectaries and Independents themselves being the principall Agents to bring them both to their end who by their tumultuous and disorderly running up daily to Westminster were never satisfied in craving justice at the Parliament against them saying that as resolution was the life of action so execution was the life of the Law and justice and would never be contented and appeased till they had obtained their desires against them and only for this very cause as they pretended that they indeavoured to alter the Lawes of the Land and the Religion established by publick authority and many of our Fugitives were as eager in that busines as any of the rest some of them standing upon the Scaffold to see the execution of them and rejoycing at the justice done upon them and yet behold the very same men are all of them guilty of the very same crime that they dyed for yea of a farre greater for the Prelate and the Earle of Strafford were adjudged for but indeavouring to alter the Religion and Lawes established in the Kingdome but all the Sectaries and Independents they have really altered Religion and have set up many new Religions and that without any authority yea they have altered both Law and Gospel rejecting all the Holy Scriptures and making nothing of the glorious Word of God as can be proved and they have not only established by their sole authority divers Religions amongst us that were never knowne before but they proclame all the Presbyterians enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ and the sons of Belial and esteeme of them as so many Infidels in no wise to be communicated with in holy things And for the fundamentall Lawes of the Land they not only speake against them as a yoake of tyrannie and bondage unsupportable to be borne but they write whole bookes against them desiring they may be altered notwithstanding all men injoy their lives and estates by them yea they write not only in general against all the laws of the land but against the very Ordinances of Parliament daily publishing Pamphlets against all their proceedings and especially they have taken great paines to dismount the Ordinance of Tythes established both by Law and a particular Ordinance of Parliament they would faine starve the Presbyterians preaching and practising hourely against the Covenant and many knowne Ordinances for whereas it was by Ordinances injoyned that none should preach publickly but such as were authorised and thought fit for the soundnesse of their Doctrine and for the sufficiency of their parts and abilities and that nothing should be printed but by authority notwithstanding these Ordinances the Sectaries and Independents both preach print whatsoever they please to the seducing of the people and for the perverting and corrupting of religion and disturbance both of Church and State and whereas by an Ordinance of Parliament the manner of government consisting of the three States King Peers and Commons hath been againe and againe confirmed established with the sitting of the Reverend Assembly of Divines and the ratifying of the Directory and for the establishing of the Presbyterian government neverthelesse they write against them all especially the King Peers and Assembly making nothing of them no nor of the â—ouse of Commons it selfe if at any time they displease them but they dash them all a peeces subverting the whole government at once proclaming the people the soveraigne Lords of them all and some of them have beene so temerarious as they have abused the whole Parliament to their faces first the King then the House of Commons and then the House of Lords slighting their authority and power affirming that they could not so much as commit any freeborne subject to prison which every Justice of peace or Constable may doe yea it is well knowne that in insolency they have exceeded all Delinquents that ever appeared before the great Councell of the Kingdome so that it may be spake to the honour both of Strafford and the Prelate of Canterbury that they both of them behaved themselves with far greater modesty and reverence towards both Houses then many of the Sectaries have done for they ever yeelded due honour and reverenciall respect unto them all both with bowed knees and gracefull and seeming language which those paultry Fellowes out of an insulting impudency denied them despising Dignities and Dominions and these creatures have had their complices to applaud them in these their Rebelliouspractises yea some of them have beene so bold as to petition the Parliament in their behalfe though they could not be ignorant how unchristianly unreverently and undutifully they behaved themselves before them which was the greatest affront that was ever offered to any Parliament and the greatest breach of the priviledge of Parliament that hath beene knowne in any nation and yet all these things have beene perpetrated by the Independents and Sectaries all which gracelesse proceedings the old Puritans of England abhorred as the way of unrighteousnesse This also can be proved that many of their Independent itinerary preachers run from place to place preaching against the Nobility and Gentry against the Citie and against the Reverend Assembly against the Directory against Tythes against the Presbytery yea against all that is called authority and against all our gallant renowned and valiant presbyterian souldiers saying in their Sermons come out yee old base drunken whoremasterly rogues shew what you have done for the safety of the Kingdome ascribing all the glory of those noble victories to their owne party Truly if I should make but a repetition of the very contents of their prayers Sermons and diabolicall practises and set downe but the very heads of them it would fill a mightie volume by all which it would evidently appeare that they are greater Delinquents against the Religion and Lawes established by publicke authority then ever Strafford and the Prelate were and greater Malignants to the State then ever the Cavaliers were yea greater enemies to all Reformation in Religion then ever appeared in the world before they were hatcht and which is not the least thing of admiration and wonder in all these creatures they are fledge in wickednesse as soone as they are disclosed Truly these their practises manifest unto the whole world that they are
in the Church of Jerusalem and yet all these as the Holy Scripture asserteth in many places made all but one Church and the Independents themselves acknowledge there was but one Church in Jerusalem Now how in any ordinary mans understanding can many congregations be one politicall ministeriall Church except only because they are united and associated under one Presbyteriall government that is to say under the government of a whole colledg of Presbyters which the Church of Ierusalem was for there was many Presbyters there as this 21. ch testifieth and the 15. chap. and many other places of holy writ all which had the government over that Church committed to them in common So that it may be a wonder to all rationall men that there should any appear in the world notwithstanding the abundant evidence out of the holy Word of God that should yet assert there were no more beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem then could all meet in one Congregation which assertion of theirs besides the Scripture very common reason overthrows for if we consider Jerusalem it is said to be the city of the great King in which there were never lesse then seven or eight hundred thousand inhabitants who dayly expected the Messiah who it is well known when he came had twelve Apostles and seventy Disciples at his command to go and come at pleasure whose powerfull preaching was such that it is related that Satan was seen fall down like iightning from heaven that is to say whose Kingdome was overthrown by their ministery and by all whose efficacious preaching and miracles we have this testimony that at one of their Miracles and Sermons there were three thousand converted at one time besides dayly additions added unto that Church by the Lord and five thousand men besides women at another and multitudes of beleevers both of men and women at another and that there was dayly increase of beleevers upon increase with a multitude of Priests besides a whole colledge of Presbyters settled Ministers amongst them and that all these should yet prevail to convert no more in future time then could all meet in one Congregation it seems a thing very incredible and truly for any to persevere in this error against all reason and against the evident testimonies of holy Scripture where we have it recorded there were many ten thousands of very weak beleevers in that one Church besides the strong it is an open and wilfull fighting against God and a resisting of his spirit which is a fearfull sin for all these are convincing arguments to prove the numberlesse multitudes and congregations of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem And all thâ—s brigade of arguments militate against the whole Army of the Homothumadon Sectaries and shall I hope for ever serve to vanquish them all and to make good this field of truth That there were many Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem and yet they were not every one a Church or Churches severally considered by themselves exercising an absolute soveraignty Independent within themselves respectively as all our new gathered Churches do now here in London but all those congregations in Jerusalem were all subordinate and being combined together made all of them but one Church and were all under a common Counsell or Colledg of Presbyters within that Precinct the example of which Mother-Church is left upon record to all posterity for imitation and therefore that tenent of the Homothumadon Independents concerning the congregationall way hath no ground for it in the whole Word of God but is a meer whimsy of their own brain and hath its foundation only in the aire and will soon vanish or be speedily blown away by the blast and breath of truth Now my other companies drawn out of the Apostles quarters after Christs death and ascension they militate against all the Burtonian Independents who acknowledge that there were many Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem but deny they were Churches properly so called now though by their grant they have lost the day as in the following skirmishes will appear yet that all men may see that this sconse of error to which they have betaken themselves cannot defend their cause I shall with one company at this time beat them out of that hold and fully vanquish them in the pitcht field It is recorded Act. 2. v. 42. of all those new converts which were in many assemblies in many houses that they continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers This very troop alone serves for the beating of them all out of what bulwark soever they can betake themselves to for shelter for if all these congregations and Assemblies of believers were equall in all priviledges and immunities with any Churches that ever were on earth and had in them severally whatsoever did make the whole Church of Ierusalem the first formed Church then they were all and every one of them Churches properly so called But the antecedent is true Ergo the consequent so that to any rationall man this question is also out of controversie for let any man but duly examine what it was in the whole church of Jerusalem that made it the first formed church and a church properly so called and he shall find the same in every one of those particular congregations and assemblies for the making of them churches properly so called so that thâ—y each of them severally may as truly challenge the name of Church as the whole Church can they communicating in whatsoever is essentiall for the making of any church a compleat church or a church properly so called if partaking in all Ordinances by lawfull Ministers can make any assembly or congregation a church properly so called So that by this one company and by this very argument all the whibling reserves of all the Burtonian Independents are dissipated and scattered and that place of truth maintained against them all viz. that every one of those Assemblies in Jerusalem were churches properly so called and yet all of them made up but one intire Church and they were not every of them severally considered by themselves and apart Independent and exercising an absolute soveraignty within themselves And therefore this truth shall for ever stand good against all sorts of Independents That many congregations combined together and subordinate to some one colledg of Presbyters make all of them within their precincts but one entire Church and that this is Gods Ordinance and not that tenent of the congregationall way which hath neither precept or president for it in all Gods holy Word So that by all these encounters and frequent skirmishes and by the mighty power and assistance of the great Lord of Hostes the Generall of all the Armies of heaven and earth I have vanquished all the forces both of the Homothumadon Independents and all the Burtonian Sectaries and maintained and kept not onely the field of truth but these
of Colosse and to all the other Apostolicall churches as Mr Knollys confesseth and laboureth to prove then these conclusions will necessarily follow from his argumentations The first that Saint Iohn could not be ignorant that there was a court and common-councell of Presbyters in that church to appeal unto for Mr Knollys saith that Saint John knew that that Church had power to judge Diotrephes and therefore in this contradicteth himselfe for in the sixth page he affirmed that Saint Iohn knew not any such court 2ly it follows that there was an Uniformity of government in all the Apostolicall and Primitive churches W ch wholy overthroweth the tenent of many of the Independents who hold the contrary so that one church had not one manner of government and another church another manner of government peculiar unto it selfe and distinct from the other but they were all governed alike by their severall Presbyteryes and had equall authority and power within their severall precincts as the church at Ierusalem Ephesus Corinth in all which there were many congregations and yet all of them made but each of them a particular church within their respective jurisdictions and were all to be governed by the joynt consent of there severall Presbytries And lastly that this order of government was to be perpetuated to the end of the world which when Saint Diotrephes laboured to violate in assuming it to himselfe and his congregation both hee and all these that follow his steps deserve severely to be punished for it as prevaricators against both precept and example of all well ordered churches and Christians And this shall suffice to have replyed by way of answer to what Mr Knollys had to say for proofe that Saint Iohn knew not of any Court or Common-councell of Presbyters either classicall or synodicall to appeal unto in his time And now I come to make good those appeals I made mention of page 10. which Mr Knollys thinketh a thing impossible for me to do to wit That every particular man as well as any assembly or congregation may have their appeal to the Presbytery of their Precinct Hundred or Division under whose jurisdiction they were and if they finde themselves wronged there then they have appeales to some other higher Presbytery or Councell of Divines for reliefe and justice These appeales Master Knollys saith I cannot make good to be according to the Scripture of truth although the having recourse by appeales from Inferiors to Superiors and from one Court to another is so evident by the very light of nature and approved of by the practice of all Nations and Churches in all ages and is also so apparent by the holy Scriptures both of the old and new testament as there is scarce any truth more obvious to all understanding men yet Master Knollys peremptorily asserteth that they cannot be made good out of the Scriptures of truth so that it is manifest to all men that be there any truth never so perspicuous he is resolved to beleeve nothing but what he conceiveth to be according to the Scripture of truth Therefore for the gratifying of Master Knollys and all such as with candour and ingenuity and without any prejudice shall reade the insuing lines I shall in this place adde something more fully and distinctly to that which I spake in the foregoing page for the proofe of those appeales I mentioned page 10. and sufficiently evince they are warranted by the Word of truth and for that purpose I shall first produce the authority of holy Scriptures and bring forth some Presidents out of the unerring word for the confirmation of the same and then I shall also ratifie the use of appeales by reasons and from the practice of all ages in all Nations And all this I shall the more willingly do in this place although it is done againe and againe in this treatise and onely because Master Knollys affirmeth that I cannot make good that appeales be according to the Scripture of truth And for proofe ofthis I will begin with that of our Saviour Matth. 13 vers 15. Wherefore saith he if thy brother shall trespasse against thee go and tell him of his fault betweene thee and him alone c. But if he heare thee not appeale higher to two or three more And if he shall neglect to heare them appeale yet higher tell it then unto the Church that is to the Court of Presbyters in that precinct So that from this place it is evident that appeales are warranted by the Word of truth for truth it self hath taught us the Doctrine of appeals And for Presidents of appeales there are many in the New-Testament to say nothing of the Old To begin with that in the 5. of the Acts which we finde recorded after Christ's ascension in the questioning of Ananias and Saphira whereas by conjoynt argrement it was appointed and ordered amongst them that all things should be common and that selling their possessions they should bring the price of them and lay it also at the Apostles feet which very expression signifieth and denoteth what great authority and power the Apostles and Presbyters in the Church of Jerusalem were then in and sufficiently declares that there was a Court there as all the carriage of that businesse doth abundantly prove I say therefore when they had made such an order by common consent and when it was found out that Ananias and Saphira his wife had not dealt faithfully in that businesse nor according to publike agreement but had consented together to deceive their brethren and by that had scandalized the Gospel the Church or people for the redressing of this abuse take not the matter into their owne hands nor challenge not any power unto themselves for the punishing of Ananias and Saphira as well knowing their place then and that the government did not belong unto them but to the Elders and Rulers over them they appeale therefore unto the Apostles and make their complaint unto them and exhibit their Articles against Ananias and Saphira as both guilty of the same crime whereupon they were convented before the Apostles as Delinquents Peter then being there president and chiefe judge and finding them guilty sentenced them both from God himselfe and punished them for their sinne with death by which we may take notice not onely of an appeale but that there was a standing Court of Presbyters in Jerusalem and that they had in it plenary power from Christ for the tryall and punishing of all offenders and of casting them out of the Church if Scandalous as well as the Church of Corinth and it stands with all reason for Jerusalem was the mother Church and therefore was inferior to none of the Daughter-Churches and to this Court of Presbyters were all appeales ever to be made by the people of that precinct as this one instance doth sufficiently declare And that other president in the 6. of the Acts where we have a second appeale upon an other publike
Persbyters did rule the Church at Ierusalem and ordinarily other Churches whom do you hit saith he in his answer to me Sure not the Independents as you call them we grant it is their part to rule thus he but of these words in their due place In the meane time we may take notice that they acknowledge that the government of those severall Churches lay in the Presbyters hands who only had the ordering of the affaires of those Churches as the Stewards over them and whose place it was to receive any accusations and examine matters of scandall and to proceede against offenders by censâ—res and punishments upon evidence and proofe made against them as the Epistles of Paul to Timothy and Titus do sufficiently evince And therefore it is not only against the Word of God but their own principles to invest the people with power and authority over their Ministers and their fellow members as to censure them or to exercise any Act of Government over them Neither doth Saint Paul in writing unto the Colossians and bidding them say to Archippus that he take heede to his ministry and in writing unto the Corinthians that they should cast out the incestuous person investe the people in either of those Churches with power and authority over either Presbyters or their fellow members For the power of reproofe and censure with authority belongs primarily and principally to the Pastors and Presbyters in every Church as the Epistles of Paul to Timothy and Titus shew in the which all Ministers are taught their duty in their severall places who to admonish and how who to ordaine and who to cast out and how to exercise all other Acts of government as those of ordination excommunication and censure c. and all Ministers are to performe their offices judicially authoritatively not by way of charity which any Christian upon just occasion observing all the vitall circumstances of a well ordered reproofe and action as of time place and persons may do for there is a very great difference between the admonition of the Ministers and that of the people which lyeth in this that the Ministers doe what they doe in the Church as Officers and Magistrates and men in place and power and the people do it by way of charity and love and only out of Christian duty and not with any authority they have over the people and if their brethren will not heare them they can goe no farther then to take one or two more with them and if they will not heare them then to refer it unto the Church to tell and informe their severall Presbyteriâ—s of it the people are confined within these limets only and are not to exceede and go out of these bounds Whereas the Prâ—sbyters and Ministers by their place have the power in their hands to order them and censure them which the people have not Neither with any good reason will it follow if any private Christian may admonish a Minister failing in his duty that he hath power and authority over him for this one Member and Brother hath not over another as having nothing to do with another mans servant as Saint Paul sufficiently declareth in the fourteenth chapter of his Epistle to the Romans and although all Christians are commanded Coloss the 3. and in divers other places to admonish one another yet this proves not that they have rule power and authority over them because the Scripture witnesseth the contrary But the Ministers and Preachers of the Word they are to rebuke to exhort and admonish and censure as Embassadours Stewards and Governours appointed by God himselfe over them for this very purpose and end not onely to beseech and intreate them but if they be refractory and disorderly to punish and censure them and that by their place as they are officers and as they have received the Keyes whereas other Christians do their duty onely out of love as Brethren and not as Magistrates So that what the people do either in admonishing or exhorting it is out of charity or what they do in choosing of officers or casting out of offenders out of the Church it is either by denomination of them or in approving and assenting unto what the Presbytery doth as the Saints shall judge the earth so that it is not in the peoples power to hinder the casting out of any offender if he be proved scandalous or of receiving any into the Church or into any office of the same if they be thought fit and worthy of it for their gifts and graces for they have no power to do any of these things for these are all actions of such as are in authority and have the power of ordering things in their hands which I affirme was never given to the people And therefore those places quoted by Mr Knollys to prove the authority of the people over either their Ministers or Fellow-members are not for his purpose as bâ—ing misapplyed and abused as they are daily by the Independent Brethren So that to all rationall and understanding men from this reproofe of Diotrephes given by S. Iohn and this his censuring of him For usurping sole authority to himselfe and prating malicious words against Saint Iohn and the Presbyters of that Church he writeth to These two conclusions do necessarily follow The first That all such as affect an absolute jurisdiction in every particular congregation within it selfe Independent without any reference or relation to a Councell or Colledge of Presbyters and do speak malicious wordes against their Fellow-ministers and Presbyters and do cast out whom they please and bring in whom they will at pleasure upon their own termes and do rule after an arbitrary way all such violate the Ordinance of God and oppose that Government that he hath established in all churches by his blessed word and are guilty of the same crime that Diotrephes was and if they repent not will be severely punished for it but all the Brethren of the Congregationall way are such The second is this That all such Ministers and Congregations as give the authority and power of ruling and ordering the affaires of the Church into the hands of the people either wholly excluding the Ministers or joyning the people with them in the Government of the Church they thus leaving their station and calling wherein they were called are prevaricators and offenders against divine institution For God hath given the keyes the power of order and jurisdiction to the Ministers and Presbyters only and injoyned the people to obey them But such are all the Ministers and Assemblies of the congregationall way as leaving their station and calling wherein they were called Ergo they are all prevaricators and offenders against divine institution And thus much I thought fit by way of answer to reply unto all that Mr Knollys had to say against my argument drawn from Diotrephes and in defence of their congregationall practices There yet remaines one whibling cavill more in this his answer
that they were the Ministers and Preachers of the Gospell and in that they give them the name and title of the Church it followeth that the representative body and Presbytery is a Church and that to them onely belongs the power and authority of the Keyes according to that of our Saviour in Matth. 18 17 18. Tell it unto the Church c. and whatsoever ye binde on Earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever ye loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven By which words all authority is put into the true Ministers hands so that they onely have the power and authority of ordaining Pastors and Presbyters among themselves as Paul sufficiently declares in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus and that they have not onely the title of the Church but a Charter and Warrant also granted unto them of ruling and governing the Church and of ordaining Church officers and that by joynt and common consent among themselves without the helpe and assistance of the people and congregations under them which by God were never joyned in commission with them And howsoever Paul in the 1. of the Corinthians chap. 6. for the taking away the scandall in going to Law before unbeleevers gave them liberty to make choyce of somethat were least esteemed in the Church for the deciding of their controversies yet that did not authorize them to make choyce of all other Church Officers for he limits them to go no farther then to the choyce of such as are of least esteeme And howsoever likewise the Apostles in the 6. of the Acts to free themselves from all impediments that they might the better attend upon their Ministeries and that without interruption they might Preach the Gospell gave them liberty to chuse their Decons and Deconesses yet they prescribe the Rule by which they shall chuse them and keep the authority of ordaining them still in their own hands Looke you out among you say they men of honest report full of the holy Ghost and wisedome whom we may appoint over this businesse and when they had chose such saith the Scripture They put them before the Apostles and when they had prayed they laid their hands on them So that howsoever they gave unto them a Liberty to chuse yet it was with limitation not an absolute liberty for if they had chose men that had not been of approved honesty well gifted and wise and qualified as they appointed it was arbitrary in the Apostles to reject their choyce for they keep the power of Ordination still in their own hands and to them it did belong to ratifie their Election so that the people had not the power of Ordination then nor have not to this day no not of the meanest Deacon or Deaconesse that belongs onely unto the Presbytery much lesse have they power of ordaining Presbyters Indeed for the deciding of controversies and differences they have a liberty given them of making choise of some petty men amongst them and that they may do without the Presbytery but they have no power of Ordination Neither did I ever yet read in the Sacred Scriptures that the people or Congregation had any hand at all in choosing of Ministers and Presbyters neither were they fit for that imployment for it is one thing to judge of mans externall carriage and manners and another thing of his sufficiency for his indowments and abilities of learning and that men of learning and knowledge onely can do and the Sons of the Prophets and it is in speciall given in charge to the Presbyters and Ministers as it is manifest in the Epistles of Paul to Timothy and Titus 1 Tim. 4. 14. Tit. 1. And they onely know how rightly to examine them in the knowledge of the tongues and Sciences and such Arts as are requisite besides the knowledge of the holy Scripture all which are little enough for the making of a Minister compleat and fit for that Sacred imployment And all the Primitive Churches in the Apostles times willingly submitted themselves to what the Presbytery then did and assented to their choyce as in the 14. of the Acts vers 23. it appeareth But I say in that our brethren do acknowledge this company this hundred and twenty names to be a church and in that it is also sufficiently manifest that they are considered in a distinct notion from the people which also in the holy Scriptures when they are joyned with their Ministers are called a church as is frequently to be seen through the acts of the Apostles and in that it doth abundantly appear by what hath formerly been spoken and will yet in the following discourse be farther elucidated that there were many congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem and that they were all governed by the joynt consent and Common Councell of the Apostles and Presbyters to whom the Apostles themselves were subject who were sent this way and that way by their direction and to whom they were to give an account of their Ministery as we see in divers places in the Acts and were ordered by them what they should do and also made their appeals unto the Apostles and Presbyters in any businesse of common concernment I say in all these respects it is evident That the Church of Ierusalem consisted of many Congregations and Assemblies and was yet but one Church and that governed by a Presbyterian Government and by a Common Councell of Ministers to whose order all the severall Congregation were to submit themselves And therefore this their Argument maketh much against them and greatly for us And this shall suffice to have answered to this their first Objection which to speak the truth is that that carrieth the most appearance of any Argument they produce to prove their Assertion and tenent for all their other Objections raised from the severall meetings of the Apostles and people and from the multitude comming to them about the ordaining of Deacons by which they would perswade the world That the company of Believers in the Church of Ierusalem was not so numerous at any time but that they might all meete in one congregation or in one place to partake of in acts of worship they consist most of them in Homonymies and meere Paralogismes which indeed beseeme not the gravity of reverend men and in the weighty matters of Divinity would be undecent in a sucking Sophister and therefore are much more blameworthy in them who by such fallacies labour to amuse the people to the disturbance of the whole Church and Kingdome and alienating the affections of Brethren one from another I shall briefly runne over them Acts 2. 46. where it is related that the Believers and new Converts continued daily with one accord in the Temple and breaking bread from house to house From these words the Brethren conclude That the multitude of Believers was not so great but that they might all meete in one congregation and in one place to partake in all acts of
word of God teacheth us So that to any intelligible Christian there can be no doubt or scruple any longer left about this point For that which God himselfe hath dictated by his holy spirit and recorded in his holy word we may not gainsay but God hath dictated by his holy spirit and recorded it in his holy word that the multitude that was converted and believed upon that new miracle and preaching of Peter Iohn was about five thousand men Ergo it is not to be gainsaid but to be beleeved and received as an everlasting truth by all Christians For as I said before this was a new effect or a new act and distinct and different from the former and therefore these five thousand are to be considered by themselves and apart Now five thousand and three thousand put and joyned together make up eight thousand which were all added to the Church to all the former that were converted by the Ministery of Iohn the Baptist Christ and his Disciples in Christs life time and therefore there is no mistake in my addition as Mr. Knollys fondly and childishly concludes and his reasons by which he would prove my mistake are as vaine and senselesse For saith he some of the three thousand may be were women and how can the Doctor say there were eight thousand new converts besides women Take notice I pray of the vanity of his expression Some of the three thousand saith he may be were women and it may be they were not and it standeth with as good reason they were not as any he can bring to prove they were although I did not set it down as my own opinion but said onely That it was the judgement of many learned men that all those eight thousand that were converted by those two miracles and Sermons were men and not women and children and therefore Mr Knollys here commits a double errour first in making that my opinion and ascribing that to me which I onely then related as the judgement of others and then left it in medio that is his first error his second is worse for whereas the Holy Scripture saith that there were three thousand soules added unto the Church by the first Miracle and Sermon and five thousand by the second in the fourth of the Acts Master Knollys peremptorily affirmeth they were but five thousand in all so gives the Spirit of God the lye who declares there were three thousand at one time five at another added to the Church But if there were but 5. thousand in all as M. Knollys asserteth then by his own acknowledgement they were all men and not women and so then I had committed no error neither can M. Knollys convince me of an error if I had said it as my own opinion that al those that were converted by those two Miracles had been all men and not women and children For for the five thousand the word of God saith they were all men and not women the words are these in the Originall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the number of men according to Master Knollys his owne interpretation was five thousand and if there were five thousand men then not women And wee find in the Holy Scripture that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is alwayes taken for men as we may see it Matth. 15. verse 38. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and they that did eat were foure thousandmen besides women and children So that amongst these five thousand by the testimony of the holy Scripture and in the judgement of Master Knollys by his owne interpretation they were all men and no women now then if all the whole number of Beleevers that were converted by those two Miracles and Sermons mounted in all but to five thousand as Master Knollys affirmeth they did not and were all men as hee accordeth to what purpose then doth hee rayse a new and needlesse cavill against mee because I said that it was the opinion of many learned men that those that were converted by these two miracles and sermons were all men and not women and children For I did not as I said before relate it as my owne judgement neither did I say there were no women amongst those eight thousand but that it was the opinion of the learned that they were all men only and not women and children But were I of as contentious a spirit as Master Knollys and that it tended to edification I could bring better reasons to prove they were men only and not women then either he or any of his Fraternity can produce to the contrary But Mr. Knollys himself seemeth but faintly to assert that there were any of them Women and Children for he saith it may be some of the 3. thousand were women thus he trifles in his answer to my first Argument saying it may be there were no more Beleevers in Ierusalem at the Feast of Pentecost but the hundred and twenty names Now all the learned know that to say it may bee there were some women makes no reall conviction of a mistake it is but a naked and groundlesse supposition of a mistake especially when there may be many solid reasons produced to prove they were all men and no women and children And therefore such kind of triflings are not sufferable in any that pretend to fear God for vain janglings and needlesse contentions about words is that that is condemned by the Apostle in all Ministers in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus and it troubles me not a little that I have to do with such vaine kind of creatures whose cheese bable is about words But notwithstanding I see a providence in it for in this the man shewes but his ignorance and whiles he would perswade the Reader that he is very acute he shewes himselfe to be a very child in the art of disputation There is an old saying give some men rope enough and they will hang themselves Even so it is here with Master Knollys whiles he takes that liberty to himself to run out in his discourse he intangles himself on every side as by the sequell will appeare as here He sayd that there was no mention in any Scripture quoted by me of eight thousand and he denyed withall that the Scripture doth prove any such thing and asserted moreover that the whole number of all those converts amouted but to five thousand and he said that all these were men and not women and yet here he confutes himself I desire all therfore to take notice of the vanity of the man He had confidently concluded there were but five thousand in all and asserted that they were all men and notwithstanding as it were in the same breath he makes mention of three thousand more of another company amongst the which he sayth some of them might be women So that by his own concession here is two distinct numbers or companies one consisting of 5. thousand
20. vers the 7. And our Brethren do not deny this And it is well known that the Primitive Christians had their meetings and assemblies in private houses as by the many places is manifest which I cited but a little before Besides the Sacrament of breaking bread is no Temple-ordinance and therefore could not be adminisâ—â—ed in the Temple with the safety of the Christians and Believers for if they were so highly displeased with the Apostles for preaching Iesus and the Resurrection in the Temple as it appeareth Acts 4. 2. They would not have suffered them to have administred the Sacraments there And if Paul was so assaulted Acts 21. 28. for being but supposed to have brought Greeks into the Temple what would these men have done if one should have brought in a new Ordinance and a new worship and service and that so contrary to their legall rights Surely the Iewes would never have suffered it neither do the Brethren contend for this Now it is well known that in the Primitive Church if not every day yet every first day of the Week at least they met together to break bread that is to receive the holy Sacrament which was never without preaching as we see in Acts 20. 7. and in the places above quoted in which it is said they dayly brake bread together and that in severall and particular houses and that of necessity must be for a few houses could not have held so many thousands as all reason will dictate and if they were or could be contained under one roof yet they must be forced to be in diverse and severall chambers or roomes So that what is done and spoke in the one the other knowes nothing of it so that they are still severall congregations as under the roofe of Pauls there are diverse meeting places where Men may partake in all Ordinances and they are called severall Churches and they that meet there several congregations though under one roof for the distinction of the places under one covert makes alwayes a distinct assembly as it is dayly seen in the severall Committees at Westminster where every Committee of both Houses have their severall roomes and equall authority and are yet all but one Parliament though distributed into so many severall assemblyes So here they had severall assemblies and that in severall houses as is declared and reason it selfe without any testimony of holy Scripture will perswade this for the Apostles they all preached and that dayly and they must have severall roomes to preach in to avoyde confusion for all things in the Church must be done in order and they must have severall auditories or assemblies or else they should preach to the walls so that if the Apostles would all preach and the people all heare of necessity they must be distributed into severall congregations and assemblyes to avoyde disorder and that there were severall congregations and severall assemblies the places above specified do declare and tell us So that there is no man that resolves not to oppose all truth that is contrary to his received opinion but may evidently perceive that there were many congregations and assemblies in the Church of Ierusalem and yet they all made but one Church and were govern'd by one Presbytery as the many Committees in both Houses are in divers roomes and make divers assemblies and have equall power and authority among themselves and yet they all make but one Parliament and all those severall Committees are govern'd by the joynt consent of the Great Civill Presbytery of the Kingdome which is all the Parliament and all this without confusion yea with most excellent order and decency This is the last argument I produced out of the above cited Scriptures to prove that there were many assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem before the persecution And concerning this argument Mr Knollys before he comes to answer it makes a little sucking preamble His words are these But the Doctor saith he hath one argument which is more to the purpose then all the other which I desire the reader seriously to consider page 64. Thus he His Answer to this Argument is as followeth I will set down all his own words which are these Now I desire the Reader to consider how the Doctor proves his Minor which he saith it manifest from Acts 2. 46. and chapter the 5. 12. 42. and chapter 3. 11. 12. and many more places that might be produoed page 64 65 66. In all which discourse the Doctor gives you nothing but his own suppositions and conclusions for the proofe of his Minor proposition which is his manner of discoursing through his booke This Argument saith he I answer First by denying the assumption or Minor proposition and the reason of my denying it is because the Scriptures produced by the Doctor do not in expresse words declare that there were divers assemblies and congregations of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem The Scriptures quoted do in expresse words declare the contrary to what the Doctor would prove For Acts the 2. verse 42. 46. All that beleeved were together and they continued with one accord in the Temple And Acts the 3. 11 12. it is expresly said that all the people can together to them in the Porch which is called Solomons Acts the 5. 12. And they were all with one accord in Solomons Porch So that these Scriptures produced by the Doctor to prove that there were divers assemblyes and congregations of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem who met together in severall places at one and the same time upon the first day of the weeke where they did partake in all Ordinances do expresly prove the contrary to wit that the Apostles and all the Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem met together with one accord in one place to wit in the Temple and in Solomons Porch and brake bread from house to house 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domatim not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per singulas domos and thus they did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quotidie day by day and they continued stedfast the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers and all that beleeved â—â—re together Acts the 2. v. 42 44 46. Yea the Doctor himselfe saith in his Minor proposition the latter part of it That the Apostles and all the Beleevers in Jerusalem did continue dayly with one accord in the Temple and that they brake from house to house and this shall suffice for refutation of what the Doctor hath written touching the first proposition Thus profound Mr Knollys confutes my arguments I have set down all his words at large And as he earnestly desired the Reader seriously to consider my Argument So I in like manner intreat him that he would but looke back upon it and advisedly weight whether there be nothing either in that or any other of my arguments and in all my discourse but my own suppositions and conclusions for proofe of what
favour from them that they allowed them publike places of meeting as well as private as may be gathered from Pauls words who said That he had taught them publikely and from house to house Now where there were such multitudes of people as could take up a famous Apostle night and day for three whole yeares together who ceased not all that while to warne every one with teares Acts 20. 31. and that publikely and privately ver 20. and where there were many more extraordinary Teachers besides a whole Colledge of Bishops and all of them faithfull and painfull Preachers as appears Revel 2. ver 2. and all these likewise continually imployed there of necessity there must be severall churches and congregations but in the church of Ephesus there were such multitudes of people as imployed the Apostle Paul for three whole yeares night and day and many other extraordinary Ministers besides a whole colledge of faithfull and laborious Pastors and Bishops Ergo there were severall churches and congregations in the church of Ephesus and therefore the word church is to be taken collectively as well antecedenter as consequenter as well as the word Angell for there is the same reason of both Now then if the word Angell in the Independents opinion 〈◊〉 to be taken collectively the word church by as good Authority is to be so taken and therefore as there were many Angels and Ministers in the church of Ephesus so there were many Assemblies and churches in that church by all which it undenyably followeth that one church may have many churches in subordination to it as this of Ephesus and the other Asian churches had and consequently was Collegially and Classically governed communi consilio presbyterorum Now then when the the church of Ephesus and all the other churches my brother Burton enumerateth were all so governed it followes that all these churches must be a paterne of government for the regulating and moderating of all other churches to the end of the world which being all Presbyterially and Classically governed as hath been proved all other churches at this day are to be Classically and Presbyterially moderated so that now when it is manifest both by Scripture and reason and by the Independents owne concession that the word churches may be taken as well Antecedenter as consequenter it matters nothing what Master Baines thinks to the contrary whose judgement in this businesse is very erroneous how Orthodoxe soever he was in his other writings for there is no man though of never so greatlearning or parts no not an Angel that shall ever by Gods assistance make me believe or imbrace any doctrine or opinion that is contrary unto the holy Scripture and all sound reason as this novell tenent and whimsie of the Independents is and truly so it appeareth to be from my brother Burtons owne words who by his induction of so many churches and by that nigh relation he affirmes they all had each to other and amongst themselves concludes they were all dependent For if there was as great or nigh a relation betweene church and church as is between member and member in the body of a man as he asserteth so that the one cannot say to the other I have no neede of thee then of necessity they must be all dependent but there is as great or nigh arelation between church and church as my brother Burton asserteth as there is betweene member and member so that the one cannot say to the other I have no neede of thee Ergo they are all dependent For the antecedent it is so cleere that all intelligible men will assent unto it And for the assumption my brother Burtons words confirme it and therefore the conclusion doth necessarily insue And if men would but consider and that duly the mâ—nner of the civill government in all the Cities we reade of in the old Testament both in Iuda and Israel and the Ecclesiasticall government in them the truth would easily be perceived and the controversie would quickly be at an end amongst all sober minded Christians Now in those severall Cities we shall finde that under their severall Kings and Princes they were all governed by a secular Presbytery called by the name of Elders and Nobles whose civill power and Authority under those Kings and Princes extended as far as the severall bounds and territories under their severall Cities delated themselves and not only within their wals for as at their first constitution they were so many severall kingdomes as the Scripture relateth and had their severall jurisdictions and bounds so into whosesoever hands and Authority they were in succession of time devolved either by conquest donation agreement or compact they commonly continued their Antient dimensions and limits and as farre as their secular power extended it selfe in respect of their civill government and policy the same limits did the Ecclesiasticall ever observe and governed all the Townes and Villages under them all whose inhabitants and dwellers in their severall abodes and habitations within the compasse of their severall jurisdictions were called Citizens and the whole country in their severall precincts were called by the names of the severall Cities as all Histories relate And if we will but examine the Annals of times all men may finde that which I now say to be true For we see in the change of all governments from Democratiall to Aristocraticall and from both to Monarchy that as far as their bounds and limits extended themselves before their changc the Monarchsor Kings that either invaded those Governments or were brought in by election or the free choyce of the people extended their sole power to the extreamest limits of those severall governments and in their owne name ruled those severall Countries which before were governed by the Common counsell of their States Senats Elders or Judges as we see it hapned not onely in the kingdomes of Iuda and Israel after the government of the Israelites was changed into a Monarchie but even in the Roman Empire and all other kingdomes for when Caesar had invaded the Soverainty and had made himselfe Perpetuus dictator as farre as the bounds and limits of the Roman Aristocracy extended its selfe before the change so farre did his sole power expatiate and extend it selfe after the alteration and the same power did all the succeeding Emperours exercise to the extremest bounds of that Empire till the dissolution of it as all Histories declare Even so when the severall Presbyteries through the Christian world were through the cunning and policy of Antichrist that man of sinne changed into Episcopacies as farre as the severall Presbyteries extended themselves so farre did the severall Bishops appointed over them extend their sole power and exercise their sole Authority Hence arose so many broyles contentions and digladiations amongst those severall Bishops about the bounds and limits of their severall Seas and jurisdictions of which all Ecclesiasticall stories are full all the which doe sufficiently prove and declare
Synod now present and their imployments likewise are of an other nature then that of ordinary Pastors in their severall congregations as all men know and therefore not a church properly so called according to their language for a Synod and church are two distinct things and both of them together were never yet found in any one congregation in the world and so by consequence there was never any congregation or particular church that yet injoyed all Gods Ordinances and therefore if their definition be good they were no true churches for they had no Synod or Councell in them neither can any of our new congregations at this day have a Synod in them and therefore they injoy not all Gods Ordinances in them severally and so come not within the compasse bounds and limits of their owne definition and therefore remaine not true formed churches as not injoying that Ordinance Besides there are other Ordinances that the congregationall churches cannot injoy for there is an impossibility of it not only in the beginning and first constitution of them but many times after in regard of mortality and the death of their Elders and Pastors and other Officers or when there remaines but one alive as it often happens in our new congregations and therefore of necessity they must bee Dependent if they will injoy all Ordinances or else be no churches as not injoying all Ordinances As for instance there are Ordinances that neerly concerne every particular congregation which cannot be performed by that alone for how can a particular congregation which for the most part consists of ignorant men and women try the sufficiency of the Presbyters that are to be elected or put over them when they have no knowledge in those Sciences Arts Faculties and Histories and of the tongues and languages as Latine Greeke Hebrew and are ignorant in many other things that in some competency are required in all such as are to be made Presbyters and Ministers over them when I say not any one in those congregations many times have any knowledge in any one of those arts and sciences in all which a Minister ought in some measure to bee versed in if hee will take upon him that high calling and charge of the Ministry and duly and rightly performe it unto them and were it so that in all these new gathered churches they had such intelligible Members who when they have made choyce of them shall give them imposition of hands which belongs onely to the Presbyterie and Elders to perform cannot be done by the people who never were appointed by God to ordaine Officers in his church as all the learnedst of the Independents hold and teach so that when any Elders and Presbyters and other church Officers are to be ordained in their new gathered churches they permit not the common people to impose hands upon them but alwayes desire Elders and Presbyters of other congregations to doe it without whose helpe they cannot injoy this Ordinance amongst themselves and therefore if they will have it they must necessarily be Dependent The same may be said of the Ordinance of Excommunication but I will first speake of imposition of hands and ordination of Elders and Officers the which howsoever in some of the more unlearned Independents esteeme it to be of small weight and but a complement yet it is one of Gods holy Ordinances which the Author of the Epistle to the Hebrewes accounts and reckons amongst the Principles of Religion and a part of the Foundation Heb. 6. ver 1 2 which place of Scripture one of the Fathers of the congregationall way Master Henry Iacob by name who first baptized their new gathered churches with that compellation of Independent churches for his owne advantage exceedingly urged to overthrow the lawfulnesse of the Ministers of the church of England because as hee supposed the church of England erred in the Foundation not having the due and right imposition of the hands of the Presbyterie though in this as in many of his other opinions hee was very much mistaken for those that imposed hands upon the Ministers at their Ordination were Presbyters Yet I say they can urge this place for their advantage against us and therefore I see no reason why wee also may not much more make use of it against them it being Gods owne institution and to be perpetuated to the worlds end in all churches so that wheresoever this Ordination and Imposition of hands by the Presbyterie is wanting in any church that church cannot be truly said to injoy al Ordinances within it selfe for there is an impossibility of obtaining or injoying this Ordinance of Ordination of Officers by the Imposition of the hands of the Presbyterie and that often in their new gathered churches not onely in the beginning of them and in their first constitution as I said before but at many other times also and that by reason of the death and mortality of their Elders or when but one of them remaines alive which frequently happens amongst them as daily experience teacheth us so that of necessitie they must crave the helpe of other churches and therefore in all these respects are Dependent for not any one Elder alone and by himselfe can ordaine an other there must be more together for that imployment for it must bee done by the imposition of the hands of the Presbyterie if it be justly done and according to Gods appointment that is of many Presbyters as the word imports And if wee take a survey and view of all the Primitive and Apostolicall churches as that at Ierusalem of Philippi Ephesus and the other Asian Churches wee shall find in them all an established Presbyterie as I have abundantly proved many Elders and Pastors in each of them appointed over them to govern and rule them in common and all those severall Presbyteries had in each of them the power of Order and Jurisdiction and the authority of imposing of hands and ordination of Elders and Officers within themselves in their respective Presbyteries so that they were as so many Corporations or Committees having their Presidents and Chaire-men with all other Officers amongst themselves and that in abundance as the Scripture relateth as in all well ordered Corporations at this day it is to bee seene so that if any one or more of their Presbyters or Officers dyed within their severall preeincts they did by vertue of their severall Charters presently goe to the Ordination of new ones and of as many as they had need of of which they had store and choyce for the most part as all well ordered Corporations at this day have who if their Presidents dye or any of their Aldermen or any of their Common Councell or any of their other Officers they forthwith make election of others out of some of their Free-men or of men well knowne to them for sufficiencie wisedome and discretion and all other abilities without having recourse to any other Corporations for they are armed with
Doctor might have also considered that the brethren even the whole Church the multitude how many soever the Doctor can make of them were present as well as the Presbyters Acts 15. 4. 12. 22. 23 25 27 28. and so have made the brethren the multitude even the whole Church Independent also and the Doctor might as well have affirmed that the brethren even the whole Church might say it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us Thus Master Knollys pleaseth his own humour in heaping up a senselesse and confused multitude of words and that onely to delude the people But should I make a full discovery of all the errours of this his babble and nonsense and give a full answer to them truly I might make a very large discourse I will therefore study brevity and answer him in a few words though I will omit nothing worthy to be taken notice of But by the way I may say thus much that this his answer is nothing to the purpose and his reasons are as vain frivilous and fond as by the sequell will appear But whereas he denyeth that the Apostles though they be called Presbyters acted as Presbyters and that they cannot therein be a pattern and president for Presbyters it is a meer begging the question and a fond trifling in a serious and weighty matter when it was sufficiently proved and that out of the holy Scripture that the blessed Apostles were not onely called Presbyters but that they were Presbyters really as well as virtually which the Independents themselves deny not and that they acted also as Presbyters at Jerusalem that is as ordinary rulers and officers in all acts of government as also in that Councell in the 15. of the Acts for otherwise their example could not indeed have been a pattern of government to all Ministers and Presbytes in all succeeding ages if in either of them they had acted as extraordinary men by a transcendent and superlative power and by an inimitable authority and as men immediately assisted by the holy Ghost as when they wrought Miracles and when they writ the holy Scripture Now that the Apostles in all those acts of government were and are to be a pattern to all Ministers in the ages to come all the learnedst of the Independent tribe and all their brethren of New England do acknowledge it and take the ordination of Deacons and Elders in their new Churches from the example of the Apostles in the sixth of the Acts and the fourteenth chapter of the same book and they acknowledge and accord that Synods and Councells in like manner are one of Gods Ordinances and ground it upon the Apostles and Presbyters meeting in the 15. of the Acts and take their example for a pattern and president of gathering into Synods and Councells upon the like occasions all which they could not do if the Apostles in all those acts of Government had acted and managed them onely as Apostles and in an extraordinary way with a transcendent and infallible authority and by a speciall dispensation from heaven and as only peculiar unto themselves as miraculous and extraordinary governours So that whiles Master Knollys fights against the truth and against mee he with the same weapon wounds his own cause and overthrows the Independents doctrine who from the examples of the Apostles though extraordinary men take their ordination of Deacons and Elders and of calling Synods And therefore in the first place this may serve for the discovering of his ignorance and futility As for his reasons of his denyall that the Apostles cannot be a paterne and president for Presbyters because the Apostles as he saith had the care of all churches and the Presbyters were limited and confined to their particular charges they are foolish and vain and make nothing for the enervating or weakning of my argument for it doth not follow as the learned well know that because the Apostles in some respects were extraordinary men and rulers therefore in all acts of Government they did nothing ordinary or for the imitation of other Church governours I say this can never follow with any good reason neither will any judicious man thus argue because the Apostles were extraordinary men and officers therefore they did not the acts of ordinary governours whereas when they assembled themselves about the affaires of the Church and for the good of it it was for this very end and purpose that they might leave an example and president to the ages to come and to all Ministers that should succeed them of doing the like and therefore we are ever to consider the Apostles in all acts of government to have acted as ordinary governours and rulers and for a president and pattern to all Ministers to the end of the world But whereas Master Knollys grollishly saith that the Apostles were Independent in the Government of all the Churches and that the Presbyters of Jerusalem and Ephesus and all the Churches were Dependent upon the Apostles and the Apostles onely Dependent upon Christ by whose spirit they were alwayes guided in the government of their Churches and therefore they said Acts 15. 28. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us In every sentence I might say word there is an error For first the Apostles were not Independent at all no more then the Presbyters but they were ever tyed unto the word of God and his revealed will and that by Christ himself who said John 5. search the Scriptures and Luke 14. They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them Yea Saint Peter 2 Epist chap. 1. v. 19. teacheth us That we have a more sure word of prophecy whereunto we do well to take heed c. So that the Apostles themselves were tyed to the Scriptures And Paul the great Apostle of the Gentiles in the 24. of the Acts and in many other places makes the Law and the Prophets the rule of his faith professing that he beleeved all things according to them So that when Peter swarved from that rule began amongst the Galatians to halt temporize Paul resisted him to his face and accused him openly of prevarication Nay which is more so far they were from being independents that they were alwayes to follow the guidance of the spirit they were not to move but as he directed Act. 16. Yea the Apostles themselves were subject to the Presbytery at Ierusalem and were to give an account of their actions to them at any time as we may see Acts 11. where Peter was questioned and was forced to give in his answer for satisfaction the other Apostles also were subject unto that Presbyterie and gave an account how they had spent their time amongst the Gentiles yea Paul himselfe received orders from the Presbyterie in Ierusalem Acts 21. and was ruled by them yea they were not onely subject to the Church in Ierusalem but to all other Churches also and were sent on their message at any time For Peter and John were
Apostles and not as Members for that present of the Presbytery of Antioch now all men know that they that are sent as Messengers by command and appointment as they were were not greater then those that sent them which is one of the reasons all orthodox Divines use against Peters Supremacy in that the Apostles which were in Ierusalem Acts 8. 14. sent him and Iohn to Samaria and therefore they conclude that the Colledge of Apostles had authority over him and that they were not subject to him And the same may be concluded concerning Paul and Barnabas that they were subject to the command of the Church And it is yet more evident out of the second verse of the 15 chapter of the Acts Where it is said that when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention disputation with them that then they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Ierusalem unto the Apostles and Elders about this question out of the which words every one may observe these conclusions following First that Paul and Barnabas used not any transcendent extraordinary and Apostolicall authority in that Church neither did they challenge unto themselves an infallible authority for the deciding of that difference which they might have done if they had then and there acted as Apostles and put forth their Apostolicall power yea which is more it is in terminis said that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention and disputation with them intimating by those words that they argued and debated the matter by Reasons and Arguments as the other ordinary Presbyters of that Church did which they would never have suffered if they had acted there as Apostles and with an infallible authority and this is the first conclusion may be gathered out of those words to prove that Paul Barnabas acted there as ordinary Presbyters and were not onely at that time subject to that Church but Members of the same The second conclusion that may be gathered out of those words is this That they were sent as the other ordinary officers and the same commands laid upon them that were laid upon the other Now if they of Antioch had looked upon Paul and Barnabas as extraordinary Messengers indued with Apostolicall authority they would have made some difference between them and the certain others spake of in that place but sending them all with equall authority and with one and the same Message and making no distinction between them it sufficiently proveth that they of Antioch in this imploiment lookt upon them but as ordinary Presbyters The third thing observable is this that Paul and Barnabas with those certain others were sent as well to the Elders or Presbyters at Ierusalem about the question as to the Apostles for so runs the text they were all sent unto as having equal authority and as the ordinary Governours and Councellours of the Church and as to such as sat by one and the same Commission Writ or Charter and governed with a joynt consent and by a Common Councel and Agreement And therefore they are all to be considered as ordinary Presbyters in that Councel and Synod and all this I say may be gathered out of that text But there are many other Arguments to prove it because the Presbyters all of them and that all along through the whole debate acted as authoritatively as the Apostles For as the Presbyters were sent unto as well as the Apostles and assembled themselves accordingly v. 6. So they did decree and write the Epistle as well as the Apostles ver 22. 23. and Act. 16. 4. they are called also the decrees of the Apostles and Elders and Act. 21. the Presbyters say Wee have written and concluded manifesting unto all the World that they in that Synod sat and acted by the same authority and were assisted and guided by the same spirit the Apostles were as sitting by the same Commission or Writ And therefore when the holy Ghost makes no difference between them in respect of their authority but only in regard of their names it is a very great rashnesse in Mr Knollys and those of his fraternity to say that the Apostles acted not as Presbyters which is indeed to confute the Scripture and all this to delude the poore people Many Arguments more might be produced to prove that the Apostles acted as Presbyters and were no more then guided by an Apostolicall and infallible spirit then the other Presbyters but for brevity sake I shall only name one more which is this in that they stated the question and debated it from the holy Scripture in the ordinary way disputing Con and Pro arguing and reasoning what they should write and what they should judge of that busines as it is apparent in the 7. verse and many more places in that Chapter by their deliberate suffrages and discourses in that Councell and having by searching the Scripture saith the Holy Ghost found what was the good and acceptable will of God thereupon they say it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us as any Synod or Councell of Divines upon the like assurance of Scripture warrant may doe Now I affirme had the Apostles at that time acted by an apostolicall and infallible Spirit a when they writ the holy Scripture and not as Presbyters they would never have admitted any disputation nor entred into a serious debate and consultation what they should write and judge of that matter but would speedily have dispatched the busines and by their Apostolicall authority and that infallible Spirit they were led with they would have decided the matter and either have said thus saith the Lord as the Prophets of old did or take notice that what wee write are the commands of the Lord dictated unto us by the Spirit of God and would never have gone to consult with others about it or debated the matter by Arguments and reasons which when they did it is a sufficient Argument to prove that the Apostles acted as Presbyters in that Councel and therfore from all that I have now said it is apparently evident that all the Apostles at Ierusalem acted as Presbyters and that the other Presbyters had equall authority and power with them notwithstanding all Master Knollys his bable And this shall suffice to have spake by way of answer to that part of his fond cavill and now I come to reply to his Grolleries concerning the votes and suffrage of the people in the Church at Ierusalem whom Master Knollys joyneth with the Apostles and Elders and makes them equall with the Elders in authority misconceiving what is meant by brethren there his words are these page 13. The Doctor saith hee might have also considered that the Brethren even the whole Church the multitude how many soever the Doctor can make of them were present as well as the Presbyters Act. 15. 4. 12. 22 23. 25. 27 28. and so have made the Brethren the multitude even the whole Church independent also
and the Doctor might as well have affirmed that the Brethren even the whole Church might say it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us Thus Master Knollys disputeth not onely against all sound Divinity but against all reason whiles hee would make all the people to have equall suffrage and voices or votes with the Elders in that Councell and therefore Master Knollys shall never be my Master who had hee known any thing concerning governments either in Church or State or had hee ever read any thing concerning Councels in either hee would never have so argued For Councels in all governments consist of peculiar and select men who for their Gravity Wisedome Learning and their inveterate experience are made choyce of and set apart for that purpose and to whom the rule and government of the Kingdomes and Countries wherein they live is committed so that the ordinary people are not to intrude or intermeddle in those affaires whose place it is only to obey and to yeeld subjection to their Ordinances and they that would goe about or indeavour to change this order appointed by God himselfe would speedily bring confusion upon themselves and others and as it is and ever has beene in the matters and affaires of the State and in the Kingdomes of this world so it is in the Kingdome of Jesus Christ which is his Church all things are to be managed with order and decency and by such men only as upon whose shoulders God hath laid that government and into whose hands he hath committed the Keyes those ensignes of authority now when Christ the King of his Church hath given the Keyes to his Apostles and to the Presbyters only and to be continued in their hands to the end of the world they only are to manage the affaires government of the Church to the consummation of all things whose calling and place it is to rule and govern them as who have the care of the churches who are the prime men in authority in them for the ruling and governing of them and the people are onely to obey them and their Ordinances in the Lord and are not to intermeddle in the government of the Church or have their voices or votes in matters of government as hath beene often proved And therefore Master Knollys in saying That the Brethren even the whole Church the multitude how many soever the Doctor can make of them were present as well as the Presbyters and had their voices there is altogether mistaken in his commentary exposition for he by Brethren understanding that the whole Church the whole multitude of Believert men women and children then in Jerusalem for so his words doe import were present in that Councell speakes hee knows not what for it is most certaine by the holy Scripture that the tenth part of the Believers that were in Ierusalem could not have met together in any one place and therefore all the many ten thousands that were there could not possibly have come together in one Synod or Councell and besides the impossibility of it all men know that the Members of Synods and such as have their voices there are Presbyters and Ministers of the Gospel only and such as are sent Commissioners and delegated out of the severall Presbyteries to those Councels for the right ordering and well managing of the government in them and this is their calling and for the other people as the secular Magistrates Masters of Families Wives Children and Servants they are every one of them to continue in that calling and statiou God had placed them in 1 Cor. 7. and all under authority are therein to abide and every one of them to follow their particular negotiations and affaires yeelding obedience in their severall places to those that are over them and women especially by a statute Law from heaven 1 Cor. 14. are injoyned silence in all the Churches and are commanded if they have any doubts to aske their Husbands at home and to be subject and obedient unto them they are not to vote it in Synods neither were women ever that I have read or heard of before such Teachers as Master Knollys and his Fraternity appeared in the world permitted to have their voices in the Churches and Synods which when it is an apparent transgression of the Law of God I am confident that the Apostles and Presbyters then assembled in the Councell of Ierusalem would not have suffered any women to have brake the Lawes of God before their faces and therefore I may with good authority out of Gods Word conclude that there was not a woman in that Synod for the Scripture saith the Synod consisted of brethren and not sisters who had never the Keyes committed to them or any voice there as Mr Knollys vainly asserâ—eth and therefore for women they were not there so that there was not the whole multitude how many soever the Doctor can make them when the sisters are exempted there being none but brethren Besides it was against another statute law from heaven made by the Apostle Paul in the 14. of the Romans ver 1. that weak brethren should be admitted to doubtfull disputations who saith For those that are weak in the Faith receive but not unto doubtfull disputations or ambiguity of disputes for they being not well setled and grounded in Religion would have either been more imbittered against one another or filled more full of scruples then resolved as dayly experience teacheth all men who see what a confusion such paultry fellows as Master Knollys is have already brought inâ—o the world by admitting their weak brethren to their doubtfull disputations and vain janglings uâ—on all occasions Neither will I ever beleeve for my part that the Apostles â—ould be transgressors of their own Laws and teach one thing and practice the contrary now when Saint Paul had made that law that the weak brethren should not be admitted to doubtfull disputations shall we think that the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem would have admitted the whole multitude of all the beleevers amongst the which there were so many weak brethren into the Synoâ— to those disputes and so have violated this law and statute from heaven especially can any rationall man believe this when they were not at that time so well acquainted with their Christian liberty For this would have tended to nothing but a confusion of all things would have put the people in an uâ—rore as is evident from very good reason for if many years after the preaching of the Gospell and the free grace of God and the teaching of them their Christian liberty they remained still so zealous for the observation of the ceremoniall law of Moses as we may read in the 21. chapter of the Acts that they out of a distempered zeal would have destroyed Paul and onely because they heard that hâ— taught the Gentiles not to observe the law of Moses how would all those weak brethren have been inraged against all the Apostles
their husbands goe out one way the wife another their children to this Assembly their servants to that Congregation and as it was among the Corinthians which Paul blames in them one said I am of Paul another I am of Apollo the third I am of Cephas and so they flutter about like a company of chickings without either heads or wit and none will bee under obedience to either Parents or Masters not withstanding God hath commanded children to obey their Parents and servants their Masters no farther than pleaseth their owne humours and all this they have learned by the traditions of the younger and whether I have wronged the Brethren in any thing I have now said I report my selfe to all the distracted Families in the Kingdome where they have beene preaching and the daily experience of any moderate minded Christian and if ever there was a Pantheon of all Religions in the world it is now in England by reason of these new teachers to the great dishonour of God the hinderance of Reformation and the alienating of the affections one from another of those that are joyned together in nighest relations Now whereas Master Knollys and my Brother Burton passing by the Church of Ierusalem in their march as I said before make some poore weake skirmishes against my forces drawne out of the Garrisons of holy Writ as that of the Eunuch Paul Cornelius Lydia and the Goaler which I had formerly brought into the field pretending they were extraordinary and not binding because they were not as they say admitted in any particular Church constituted according to the Gospel forme but into the catholike visible Church I cannot passe by their trifling without some answer unto their bravado and therefore I thought good in this place before I march on to fight them that they may not hereafter boast vapour that I durst not incounter them or looke upon their most materiall Reserves which is concerning Cornelius and those that were with him which they especially pitch upon conceiving they have a great advantage against mee for the making of this ground good viz. that the sole power of admitting any to bee Members of any Church doth not reside and lye soly in the Ministers of the Gospel but that the people also have a hand as well in their admission as they and if they shall dislike the reception of any that then the Ministers cannot by their owne and sole authority admit them though never so well qualified for this must necessarily be the scope of their incounter for to what end otherwise should it be made yea their very words manifest as much which are these first Master Knollys page 15. and 16. thus declareth himselfe that the brethren did not intermeddle in that busines saith he viz. of the admittance of Cornelius and those that were with him by Baptisme into the Church I conceive the reason why the Brethren did not intermeddle to hinder their admittance to that Ordinance of Baptisme was not because they had not that liberty but because they had no just objections to declare to Peter Now that the Brethren had a liberty to declare any thing which might justly have hindred doth appeare by the question the Apostle expounded saith hee I conceive hee meant propounded verse 47. Can any man forbid water that these should not bee baptized And the Doctor himselfe saith hee acknowledgeth that the Brethren or Disciples of the Church of Jerusalem which must be a paterne of all Churches had this liberty to except against some sort of persons in case that such persons have beene formerly knowne to have beene open Enemies and Persecutors of the Church and then they are justly to bee suspected untill they have given publick evidence by witnesse to the Ministers of their true conversation and there produceth a plaine instance to prove this out of Acts the ninth where Paul comming to Jerusalem assayed to joyne himselfe to the Disciples but they were all affraid of him beleeving not that hee was a Disciple Thus Master Knollys speaks and then concludes that all the Disciples in the like case have the same liberty because Jerusalem the Mother-church is to bee a paterne to all other Daughter-churches therefore saith hee when it doth evidently appeare that the Disciples or Brethren of the Church of Ierusalem in her most flourishing condition had this liberty to declare their feares and their ground thereof against Paul How can the Doctor saith he make good that the Presbyters alone without the consent of Brethren may admit Members and cast out Members and that the Brethren and the Congregation have nothing to doe to hinder any such thing I have faithfully set downe his words and the force of his Argument to which I will by and by give my answer after I have set downe also what my Brother Burton hath to say in this busines and then I will reply to them both in order My Brother Burtons words are these page 17. It is one thing saith he to preach and instrumentally to convert soules which chiefly pertaines to those that are called thereunto but in the case of Church-government of admitting and casting out it is otherwise And here let Peter himselfe whose words you alleage resolves us who when the Holy Ghost so wonderfully fell on all of them that heard the Word said can any man forbid water that these men should not be baptized c. Which words imply that if any exceptions could have been made it was in those Jews present to give forth their allegations why those beleeving Gentiles should not be admitted to become one Church with the beleeving Jews So as your Observations fall to the ground as that first Peter was sent to and â—ot the Church And secondly Peter commanded them to be baptized Again this example was extraordinary in all the circumstances of it Your instance of the Eunuch Act. 8. 8. of Lydia Act. 16. as many other are meer extravagants We faith he speak of Churches constituted not of single converts here and there one not yet joyned into a particular Church-body Thus my brother Burton declareth himselfe whose words I have faithfully set down and all he hath to say against all those examples But before I come to my answer I shall desire the Reader to take notice of these mens dealings they make all these examples either extravagants or extraordinary and yet they would from the example of Cornelius and Peters question to the brethren that came along with him inferre that the authority of admission of Members lay not onely in the Ministers hand but in the peoples also as who had the liberty to bring in their exceptions against any for their not admission So that these men at pleasure will make the same Scripture they except against as not authoritative and binding for us yet to be bindingly presidentiall for themselvs So that as far as in their own opinion it makes for their grolleries and serves their turn it shall be for
Priests were also added unto the Lord so that if there were a great Congregation and Assembly of the Priests as the Word of God relateth there must necessarily be many more Congregations of the ordinary people and all these are to be yet reckoned upon a new account and upon a new List so that there were numberlesse Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem if any credit may be given to the Holy Scripture and that in the very infancy of the Church so that I am most confident that this truth is now evident and perspicuous to all those that have but ordinary understanding But because this is the onely busines as the Independents say and that will put an end to this controversie betweene us for they have often said prove once but clearly unto us out of the Word of God that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem and then wee will grant you the day I say in this regard I shall briefly adde some other Arguments to prove there were more Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then could all possibly meet in any one Congregation or a few for to these that were daily converted and added to the Church wee heare upon all occasions of additions upon additions and of increase upon increase of many more Beleevers for in the ninth chapter verse 31. it is recorded that the Churches having rest through all Judea and Galilee and Samaria they were multiplyed for so it is in the Oâ—iginall Now Ierusalem was the chiefe Church in Iudaea and therefore shee also multiplyed and increased in Disciples daily which being added to the former spake of it makes it an impossible thing that they could all meet together in any one place or a few And in the 12. chapter upon the miraculous death of Herod it is said verse 24. that the Word of God grew and multiplyed in Ierusalem that is brought forth great increase of ' Beleevers and made them exceedingly daily to multiply so that all these additions upon additions of Beleevers made it an impossible thing that the hundreth part of them could meet in any one place But omitting many Arguments that I could produce from the multitudes of their Preachers and the diversity of the nations and the infinit number of the Inhabitants and from the Miracles in Jerusalem that necessarily called for many Congregations and Assemblies that one place in the 21. of the Acts may for ever silence all Gain-sayers and abundanly prove unto rationall men that there were many if not numberlesse congregations of Beleevers then in the church of Ierusalem If we will but take notice what Saint Iames and all the Presbyters of Jerusalem spake unto Saint Paul who being all Inhabitants there and the Ministers and Preachers of the Word in that Church must all necessarily know not onely the condition of the Beleevers there but for the most part the number of them now I say it will be worth our paines and attention to observe and take notice what is there confirmed by the testimony of many witnesses yea a cloud of witnesses and all of them without exception there was Iames the Apostle by name and all the Presbyters of Ierusalem all Synodians whose witnesse was true and for ever to be beleeved and yet they give in this evidence to Saint Paul concerning the Beleevers in Ierusalem that there were many ten thousands of weake Brethren here how many ten thousands more may we suppose were there then of strong Brethren in the Church of Jerusalem seeing for the most part in all Churches where there are able and learned Ministers it is ever observed that there are three strong brethren to one weak one at least more strong brethren then weak ones Now when there was a whole Colledge of Apostles for the most part resident in that Church and a whole colledge of Presbyters fixed Ministers there and able Preachers besides a multitude of Priests and all painefull and laborious that preached unto them night and day instructed them all in their Christian Liberty and confirmed them in it with miracles and when they had also for a farther strengthning of them in that their Christian Liberty called a Councell and Synod in Jerusalem and ratified the abrogation of the legall Ceremonies and that from the Holy Scripture and the Spirit of God and did daily preach unto them all this their Christian Liberty we are bound by the Law of charity to beleeve there were many more thousands of strong Christians then weake in that Church yea our daily experience will perswade any man to beleeve this Doctrine Now let us heare what Saint Iames and all the Presbyters witnesse unto Saint Paul concerning this point verse 20. Thou seest Brother Paul say they how many ten thousands for so it is in the Originall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Iewes there are which beleeve and they are all zealous of the Law out of the which words wee may observe that those Saint Iames and the Presbyters speake of were all Inhabitants in Ierusalem for they could witnesse nothing of strangers those that dwelt in other places neither could they have said thou seest them if they had not beene Inhabitants or if they had beene here to day and gone to morrow for then they could not have beene taken notice of but they speake of Inhabitants as by many Arguments may be proved and of all these they asserâ— these things First for the number of them that they were many ten thousands Secondly that they were all Beleevers Disciples and very good Christians yea very zealous ones Thirdly they doe witnesse that all these many ten thousands were but weake Brethren and therefore gave Saint Paul counsell yea an order somewhat to connive at their weaknesse for a time that hee might the better ingratiate himselfe into their favour the story is there fully set downe Now I say if there were many ten thousands of weak Brethren in the Church of Jerusalem how many more ten thousands of strong Beleevers may any rationall men suppose were then there in that church where there were a colledge of Apostles forthe most part and a standing Colledge of able Presbyters all miraculous Teachers and assisted immediatly by the spirit of God Surely a few hundred of houses or places could not possibly have held their very bodies much lesse could a few hundred of houses have held them to partake in all the Ordinances so that all men that have not absolutely resolved to give the Spirit of God the lye yea to wage warre against Heaven must acknowledge that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem especially when it commeth confirmed by so many witnesses of divine authority By which it appeareth that there were many Congregations of Beleevers there as in every house one So that for this point I am most assured it is now without controversie that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers
tongue And truly unlesse there be some controversie concerning the Interpretation or about the text as there is not here I conceive it the greatest folly in the world writing in the vulgar tongue and for the common benefit of all men to insert sentences either of Greek or Latin except very varly for it but pudders the reader that is not skilled in the languages neither do we finde that it was the custome either of the holy Prophets or any of the ancient Greek or Roman fathers in all their Writings or Sermons to use any but their vulgar tongue without it were very seldom and that with interpretation I say therefore those flashes being excepted I have punctually set down all that he had to say against any of my arguments both here and every where that neither he nor any of his party may complain that I had not set down their words in their full strength and so might fall into the same condemnation with him who hacketh and minseth my arguments at pleasure picking and choosing what he thinks himself best able to deal with either wholly omitting the other or slighting of them which is the ordinary method both of Mr Knollys J. S. and my brother Burton and all the Independents wherein they deal not fairly with me nor ingenuously nor candidly with the people for in so doing they delude them and meerly play the juglers This large discourse of Master Knollys if it be well weighed hath but little substance in it it consisting of absurdities and contraditions and flat denyalls of that which he often granteth In breife if the reader will but duly consider every passage of his answer with whathe grants in the third and the 11. pages of his pamplet he will speedily perceive that whiles he labours to confute others he gives a fatall blow to his own cause and overthrowes that opinion which both he and all those of the congregationall way labour to maintaine and withall by the examination of the particulars he will the better discerne into the futility of Master Knollys and the vanity of those of his party that beleeve take every word of his for an Oracle though it be never so distructive totheir own cause The sum of this his answer is this that I am mistaken in my comentary exposition and application of this place of Scripture These are his words It will not be amisse therefore in the first place to take notice what he denyeth in his answer and what he affirmeth with the reasons of both that the reader may the more easily perceive the vanity of error and the force and efficacy of truth First he denyeth that Diotrephes would have had an absolvte jurisdiction within himself and have had his Congregation independent and that he was the first that opposed the Presbyterian Government or that he had any particular congregation He deneyeth also that Saint Iohn knew any Court or Common counsell of Presbyters either Classicall or Synodicall to appeale to his time The reasons of his denyals are these First because saith he there is no mention made of any particular congregation Diotrephes had Secondly it is not declared what it was that Saint Iohn had writ unto the Church in his Epistle nor in any other Scripture except it were to receive those brethren which Diotrephes would not receive and therfore how saith God can the Dâ— affirme that Diotrephes asmed theypower to himself which belonged unto the Colledge and councell of Presbyters c and to prove that Diotrephes was not the first that opposed the Presbyterian government he saith had he done so then he should have been convented before them which he was not and therefore he did not oppose a Court or common Councell of Presbyters Besides Saint Iohn would then have wrot rather to the Colledge of Presbyters if they had been any such than to the Church or in writing to the Church would rather have sent him a summons to appeare at some Consistory than to warne them to take heede of his evill that they did not follow it and doubtlesse he would have written thus Diotrephes loves to be a Primate amongst you therefore when the Presbytery comes to keepe order and to meet together in a Court common Councell I will remember his deeds and informe and complaine to the Court that he prats against us with malicious words Now when neither of this was done by the Presbytry nor by Saint Iohn it is manifest that Diotrephes did not oppose the Presbytry and that Saint Iohn then knew not of any Court or common councell of Presbyters either Classicall or Synodicall to appeale to in his time And then in the third place he putteth me upon the proofe of those appeales I made mention of page 10. affirming that I cannot make them good And in the last place he afferteth that Saint Iohn wâ—it to the Church and particular congregation whereof Diotrephes was a member and that that congregation had power to judge of him and the reason of this his assertion is because saith he this Church had the same power over Diotrephes that the Church of Corinth and that of Colosse had over their members Having thus briefly set down what Master Knollys both denies and affirmes with the reasons of each I shall now answer to every severall branch in order and if I be the more large in my reply I crave pardon in regard it is not only a businesse of publicke concernment and about the principle question now in debate but that it will give the more light to the wholo following discourse For answer therefore to his reason of my mistake in my commentary exposition and application of that place of Scripture viz that there is no mention made of any particular congregation that Diotrephes had I say there was no neede of making any mention of it For if there were many Presbyters in all the Primative and Apostolicall churches and in that Church by name in which Diotrephes was Presbyter as it is evident out of all the places above quoted as out of the 14. of the Acts and the 15. and 20. and 21. of the same booke and the Epistle of Paul to Tit. Chap. 1. ver 5. and the 1. Epist oâ— Pet. chap 5. ver 1. 2. 3. and the 13. of the Heb. and Saint Iames the 5. and the 3. Epistle of Saint Iohn which Master Knollys himself acknowledgeth and if it be also apparently evident from all those severall Scriptures as it is that those Presbyters were fixed with in their particular jurisdictions with a speciall charge given them in common to looke unto the flocks committed unto their charge and to feede the Church of God which he had redeemed with his precious blood which word feede includes the Keys to wit the power of order and preaching and the authority of jurisdiction and rule and from the which charge they were not to depart as too too many of the Independent Ministers now amongst us dayly do
leaving the poore sheepe in the wildernesse I say when all these things are evident out of the holy Scripture it necessarily followeth when Diotrephes was an Elder and Presbyter in that Church Saint Iohn writ unto which Master Knollys confesseth that he had there his particular congregation and therfore there was no neede of making any mention of it for very common reason will dictate thus much to any man that if any great grasier have ten or twelve thousand sheepe and many severall walks and places of pasturage to feed them in and hath severall pastours to looke unto them all as not a few Shephards can feede ten or twelue thousands sheepe and gives them all a charge in common of looking to his sheepe and feeding them although all those severall pastours are to have a generall care of all those sheep that have his marke upon them and that are within the limits of his severall walks and grasing places yet it is to be understood that every one of them hath his severall flocke committed to him in speciall for he must not be idle over the which he is to have the particular inspection and care for the well ordering of it with this limitation that he may not wrong the flocke or do any thing contrary unto his Masters pleasure or to the dammage or prejudice of his other fellow Pastours or their flocke All this I say good reason will dictate to any rationall man and dayly experience will confirme it In the same manner things were ordered in the primitive and Apostolicall Churches all whose Elders and Pastours in them had the charge of the severall flocks committed to them in common all the which they were to governe communi consilio presbyterorum as it is by all the Independents themselves confest for all those Churches were Aristocratically and Presbyterianly governed and therefore according to the wisdome and common councell of their Elders this Presbyter had the charge of the sheepe of such a ward or walke committed unto his care and that Elder had such a Circuit committed unto his charge and a third Elder had such a precinct committed to his cure and so of the rest with this proviso alwayes that all things of publicke concernment and that tended to the common good both of sheep and Pastours should be ordered by the joynt and common councell of the severall and respective Presbyters in an orderly and well regulated way for all things in the Church were to be done in order and decency and uniformitie which could never have been if every Pastour and Presbyter and every particular congregation under them severally would have governed as pleased themselves without any reference to the Colledge or common counsell of all the Presbyters which was the failing of Diotrephes here for which he was greatly blam'd by Saint Iohn And that all those Churches were to be governed by their severall Presbytries and that the people were not to intermeddle with the government of them Master Knollys himselfe in the third page of his pamphlet and in the eleventh of the same doth accord who citing my words in my introduction to my booke deduceth from them foure conclusions which I shall by and by set downe after I have related the grounds of them Before saith he the Doctor comes to proove his four particular Propositions he saith it will not be amisse in generall to take notice that all the Churches we read of in the new testament were aristocratically and Presbyterially Governed and were all Dependent upon the severall Presbyters and produceth divers places of Scripture to prove the same and two sheets are spent wholly in proving thereof from the 12 page to the 29. These words Mr Knollys quoteth out of my book Now hear his answer All which saith he should it be granted onely proves First that in every City or Church there was a Presbytery For they Ordained them Elders in every Church Act. 14. That thou Ordain Elders City by City Tit. 1. v. 5. Secondly that as there were Apostles and Elders in the church of Jerusalem so there were Elders in the church of Ephesus Acts the 20. ver 25. and in the church of Corinth and in the church of Galatia and Philippy c. Thirdly that those severall churches were dependent upon their several Presbyteries and they were to obey them who had the rule over them Hebr. 13. 7. 17. 24. Who were their guids obey your guids Fourthly that this Presbyterian church Government God hath appointed as his Ordinance to be continu'd to the end of the World the which whosoever resisteth resisteth the Ordinance of God These are the foure conclusions Master Knolleys gathereth out of my arguments but with all adds saying that all this doth not prove that this Presbyterian Church government is dependent upon a supreame judicature to the Decrees of which they must submit themselves and their churches This saith Mr. Knollys doth not follow but of that in its due place In the mean time it will be much to the purpose a little to consider his expressions All which saith he should it be granted proves First c. to wit the four conclusions now layd down in this place I intreat the Reader to behold the vanity of the man in so speaking all which shâ—uld â—t be granted as if he did me a great courtesie and favour to yeeld unto me that which the holy Scripture in exâ—resse woâ—ds declareth o be the will and pleasure of God and that which I had out of the blessed word of truth sufficiently ev need and which no man can deny except he will deny the Scripture and Word of God which hath perspicuously and in fo mall termes set own that there was a Colledge Presbyte ie of Elders orda ned and constituted in very Church or City who were to have the rule over the people in their severall congreâ—ations within their â—râ—cin â—s w ch M Knollys himself consenteth unto as is evident by his 4 conclusions So that if ever there had been any time of denying or not granting that all the Churches of the New Iestament were all Arâ—stocratically and Presbyterianly to be govern'd and were so many severall Eccle aâ—â—icall Corpo ations and that all those Scriptures I had produced for the proof of the same had not been rightly applyed and alleadged now had been the time when this businesse was in question and agitation for Mr Knollys to have shewen his skill and to have produced the reasons of his dislike and gain-saying but when he confirmed what I proved as is manifest from his four conclusions it is a great folly in the man to say all which should it be granted when he himselfe acknowledgeth as much and in expresse terms in the eleventh page of his book hath these words It is not denyed saith he by the brethren meaning the Independents that the Presbyters in all Churches were the men in the Government of the Churches in which they were Elders These are
and as the House of Commons sends to the House of Lords and the House of Lords to the House of Commons by their Messengers and as all businesses are to be done in the Name of the States and in the name of either Lords or Commons so those little sucking congregations and churches though they consist but of 10. or twenty a peece although never an one of them knowes any more what belongs to government then the horse Master Knollys preaches on when he goeth into the Countrey yet they send their Officers in the name of the Church to any other of their Churches upon any difference or about any of their Grolleyes with as great State and Grander as if they were very absolute principalities and they use by the report of those that have seene the manner of their carriage in their imployment in imitation of greatnesse the same garbe and gestures that Embassadours or those that carry a Message from the House of Commons to the House of Lords usually do making their honours and conges and they are such bunglers at the work as those that have seene them say it is one of the ridiculosest spectacles that ever was beheld for they make a thousand Jackinaps tricks and act their severall parts with such affectation of State that experienced men and such as well know what belonges to the entertainment of Embassadors affirme that they never beheld any thing so fanaticall It is reported that Iohn Lilburne my Scholler is Master of the Ceremonies amongst them and teaches them their postures of Court-ship If ever there were any people in the world that trampled all government both Divine and Humaine under their poluted feete or ever made a scorne of authority I may truly say the Independents are the â—en and yet they applaud themselves in all their actions and sticke not to say by these their doings they set up the Lord Christ upon his throne in his Kingdome and in their houses and compt all those that differ from them of their congregationall way as enemies of the Lord Iesus and of his kingdome and esteeme of them as of a company of Infidels and yet they have neither precept nor president for their so doing but St. Diotrephes in all the holy Word of God which constituted a Presbytery in every Church and committed the government of all the congregations under each Presbytery into the hands of a Common-councel and Colledge of Elders as that Church Saint Iohn write unto can witnesse which was governed by the conjoynt consent of them all in which Saint Iohn was a Presbyter and therefore writ If he came he would remember Diotrephes deeds which abundantly declareth that Saint Iohn acknowledged a Court a settled government in every church whether the members might have recourse for redresse of any abuse or scandalls and therefore took no more upon him then belonged unto his place and this shall suffice to have answer'd to Master Knollys his last whibbling cavill and to have spake of this point of controversie between us in this place I shall answer methodically to all his other evasions in their due places which the reader shall finde as they are scattered through the booke for he is very immethodicall in all his pamphlet where I will set downe Master Knollys his owne words But in the meane time it is sufficiently confirmed out of the Word God and out of all the Scriptures above quoted that all the churches we reade of in the New-Testament were so many corporations in Christs kingdome which were to be governed by a Common-councell of Presbyteries And so for many yeeres after the Apostles times they were Governed Communi consilio presbyterorum as our brethren the Independents do confesse and prove by antiquity and humane authority which weapon I wonder they will contend with in deciding of Gods matters which are only out of his holy Word to be proved which is to be the rule of our faith But it seemes Saint Ambrose his authority pleaseth them well though if we looke into it it makes much against them He lived as the author that cites him saith within the fourth Century His words are these upon the 1. of Timothy Synagoga postea ecclesia seniores habuit quorum sine consilio nihil agebatur in Ecclesia Quod qua negligentia obsoleverit nescio nisi doctorum desidia aut magis superbia dum soli volunt aliquid videri Take with it his own interpretation The Iewes Synagogue saith he and afterwards the Christian church had Elders without whose counsell nothing was done in the church which by what neglect it grew out of use I knew not unlesse it were perhaps the sloth or rather pride of the teachers whilest alone they would seeme to be some body However it is acknowledged by their owne testimony that in the Apostles time and many yeares after the Apostles nothing was done in the church without the Councell of the Presbyters So that it is evident the Primitive churches were governed by the joynt and common councell of the Presbytery and the people had nothing to do with it We may adde here unto Saint Ambrose Saint Ieromes testimony who in his Commentaries upon the first chapter of the Epistle of Paul to Titus largely declaring himselfe as in many other places concerning the occasion of the change of that government established by the Apostles saith Idem est ergo Presbyter qui Episcopus antequam diaboli instinoâ—u studia in religione fiâ—râ—nt diceretur in populis ego sum Pauli ego Apollo ego autem Cephe communt Presbyterorum consilio Ecclesiae gubernabantur c. In the which words he acknowledgeth by the first institution all Churches were governed by the common councell of the Presbyters and not by the advice of the people Yea the very Canons of the Pope in the first part and the 95. distinction giving the reason why the Presbyterian Government came to be changed and the Hierarchiall was put in the place affirmeth that it was through faction and for the avoyding of further Schismes and rents in the Church and cities using the very words before quoted out of Saint Ierome and confesseth that before that time the Churches were governed Commum consilio Presbyterorum not by the people or any one Prelate but by the Presbytery and their councell And if humaine authority were needfull in this businesse I might make a volume with their very expressions to prove the novelty of the Hierarchicall government and that of the peoples jurisdiction assuming the Authority of governing into their hands and the Antiquity of the Presbytery and that by the enemies own confession Bet I am resolved to cleave only unto the Word and sound reason deduced from thence for the deciding of this controversie being sorry that there was so much as occasion of naming humane authority in a point of Divinity As for the Presbyterian government in the sense that I understand it there is nothing more
cleere to me in all the holy Scripture Yea the very word and name of a Presbytery signifieth a Magistracy or Aristocracy or Signory or Court that is a Company or Senate or Councell of grave wise and understanding men invested with authority and power of ruling ordering and commanding and in whose hands the government is put And as the word is taken in the civill polity and Government so in the Ecclesiasticall By a Presbytery we understand a Religious Grave Solid Learned and wise councell of Divines and Ministers or men of inveterate experience and such as know how to Rule and Govern those that are under their command with wisdome and moderation and according to the Word of God and the which men likewise are invested with Authority and Power for to exercise a jurisdiction over others and are hereunto called by such as are able to judge and discerne of the sufficiency of their gifts and abilities for this worke which the ordinary and common people cannot do And as in the civill State the Presbyters and Elders of the people were those that had the rule over them for the common good of them all and for their bodily preservation So the Presbyters and Elders in the Church are those that have the rule and government over the Churches for the spirituall good of their souls And as Kings and Rulers are by a Metaphoricall and borrowed speech called Pastors and Sheepherds of the people and are said to feed the flocks committed to their charge by which word is understoode the exercise of all lawfull and moderate authority agreeable to the Law of God over them so the Presbyters and Ministers are called the Pastors and Sheepherds yea and Stewards over the flocks committed to their charges and they are commanded to feed them by which metaphor they are invested with the authority and power both of preaching and ruling and have the Government over those flocks put into their hands which they must alwayes exercise according to Gods Word they must feed them and rule them in the Lord and not after their own wills and pleasures they may not have dominion over our faith as Paul saith in the 2. of the Corinthians chap. 1. verse 24. But that they should be helpers of our joy that is they may not usurpe an absolute Soveraignty or power over the consciences of the people as if the spirituall state and welfare of their flocks depended on them which is onely grounded upon their faith in Jesus Christ but as they are the Stewards of God and Ministers and servants of the Church so they should comfort them and rejoyce their hearts in the Lord and establish them in the faith and use all the care and diligence that is possible like good Shepheards to preserve the flockes committed to their charge that they straggle and stray not from Christs fold and run not into the by-wayes and thickets of sinne and errour and be corrupted with noysome food and false Doctrine And if they have any among them that are unruly that they bring and reduce them into order or if they have any sicke feeble poor or weak that they cure releeve comfort and restore such and if they have any that are infected or scabby that they remove such from the sound till they be recovered or if they have any broken or wounded that they heal and recover them with all lenity and humanity and that they should by common councell govern and order their flocks and take speciall care that the particular Pastors and Ministers of the severall Congregations and Assemblies under their Presbytery and charge assume not any sole and soveraign Authority to themselves over the flock to do any thing of publike concernment without the joynt consent of that Presbytery or spirituall Corporation under whose commands they are And it stands with all reason that a Common councell of godly grave learned and experienced ministers should ever be more able to manage and order a government then two or three unexperienced men or two or three hundred young people of which most Congregations consist in whom the sap of youth is not yet dryed up or if many of them should be of riper years yet they know little what belongs to government and therefore they can never be so well able to govern as men both of known learning ancient experience and honesty and approved judgement and integrity as a whole Colledge or an Assembly of learned Presbyters commonly are who by God himself have the dispensation of the Word and the ordering and ruling of the Church committed unto them and who in the Preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments and in all ordinary acts of worship and in governing and ruling the flocks committed to their severall charges are the successors of the holy Apostles But by the way an objection is here to be answered unto made by some of the Independents after this manner The Elders and Presbyters of the Apostles times say they by the imposition of their hands gave the gift of tongues and prophesie Acts 19. 1 2 3 4 5. and the 8. 18 and 1 Tim. 4. 14. and healed the sick Iames 5. 14 15. according to our Saviours promise Mark 16. 18. Let say they the Presbyters of our time let them impose their hands upon the sick and heale them let them by imposing hands upon their disciples inable them on a sudden to speake with strange tongues and foretell things to come and then we will acknowledge them for a true Presbytery then will they be a right assembly of Elders and the Apostles successors but if they cannot give to others nor yet have for themselves in store any of the true Apostles any of the right Presbyters gifts and characters we may not we dare not acknowledge them as such These are their formall words in print Before I come to my answer I desire there may be speciall notice taken of this Objection and such like for for ought that I know if any man will argue afthis manner all Christian religion may be called in question and no man will have any Creed or Belief except he may make his own Articles as Thomas did who said Vnlesse I put my hands into his side and my fingers into the print of the nailes I will not believe And as the Iews said unto our blessed Saviour Thou that savedst others now save thy self come down from the Crosse and then we will believe in thee do this miracle and then thou wilt perswade us Here we see they would make their own Articles or else they would have no Creed The Jewes had learned this method of disputing from the Devill who at his meeting of our Saviour Christ and at his first assault thus disputed If thou be the Sonne of God saith he and wouldest have the world so believe and me too on thee then command these stones to be made bread do this miracle first but thou canst not do it Ergo. So in like